WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.581 --> 00:00:12.871 Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. 00:00:13.701 --> 00:00:19.701 This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. 00:00:20.121 --> 00:00:24.471 Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:24.971 --> 00:00:27.731 I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. 00:00:27.821 --> 00:00:35.711 And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. 00:00:36.331 --> 00:00:38.881 A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. 00:00:39.216 --> 00:00:40.056 Only stuff that 00:00:40.056 --> 00:00:40.586 works. 00:00:41.467 --> 00:00:43.927 My guest today is Dave McLendon. 00:00:44.347 --> 00:00:55.687 Dave is an instructional designer and instructional media director at Columbia University School of Professional Studies where he builds online learning that's clear, practical, and effective. 00:00:56.197 --> 00:01:04.357 His work blends video production with instructional theory with a focus on multimedia learning, instructional design, and relationship building. 00:01:05.107 --> 00:01:10.507 He has a special interest in memory and how people actually retain and use what they learn. 00:01:10.805 --> 00:01:20.937 We just scratched the surface on this whole idea of instructional design and instructional media, and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. 00:01:21.539 --> 00:01:22.449 Good morning, Dave. 00:01:22.509 --> 00:01:25.389 Welcome to Better Teaching Only stuff that works. 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:27.219 Good morning. 00:01:27.219 --> 00:01:28.119 Thank you for having me here. 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:29.169 Really appreciate it. 00:01:29.289 --> 00:01:37.849 Well, here's the thing, not to put any pressure on you, but in the introduction to the show, every week I say that I hope that everyone will laugh at least once. 00:01:38.884 --> 00:01:41.404 And learn something actionable. 00:01:41.854 --> 00:01:43.264 So no pressure Dave. 00:01:43.324 --> 00:01:46.744 No pressure, but yeah, be funny singing and Dance monkey. 00:01:48.244 --> 00:01:48.934 There you go. 00:01:49.264 --> 00:01:49.804 Alright. 00:01:49.804 --> 00:01:55.684 Well, you know, I was introduced to you by a mutual friend, Sarah Oberly, and she says, you gotta talk to this guy. 00:01:56.224 --> 00:02:01.194 And so I looked you up and said you were an instructional designer and. 00:02:02.409 --> 00:02:03.159 That's great. 00:02:03.459 --> 00:02:05.049 And then I had no idea what it was. 00:02:05.049 --> 00:02:08.499 So, so what exactly is an instructional Dave? 00:02:08.859 --> 00:02:11.709 Well, first I want to thank Sarah for introducing us. 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:19.219 I'm, it's so important to have connections and it's so important to have like really great mutual friends and she definitely is one of them. 00:02:19.219 --> 00:02:21.649 So anyone listening to this check out Sarah Ober Lee's work. 00:02:21.649 --> 00:02:22.549 She's awesome. 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:24.409 She just came up with a book with niche. 00:02:24.469 --> 00:02:24.889 That's right. 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:27.319 Anyway, what is an instructional designer? 00:02:27.679 --> 00:02:30.199 So you won't like the first part. 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:31.699 No one likes the first part of this answer. 00:02:31.699 --> 00:02:39.229 So an instructional designer baseline answer for any question that they get asked, including this one. 00:02:39.229 --> 00:02:41.839 What is an instructional designer is it depends. 00:02:43.054 --> 00:02:58.174 So IDs are basically in the business of creating learning experiences, and learning is really contextual as it turns out, and that includes the systems and environments in which that learning is designed, not just when it is delivered. 00:02:58.204 --> 00:03:00.004 So it depends. 00:03:00.184 --> 00:03:12.194 Having said that, at a high level, instructional designers, create and organize the necessary and sufficient conditions for learning to happen. 00:03:12.434 --> 00:03:12.869 So the job. 00:03:13.874 --> 00:03:28.244 Basically what that means is you take a goal or objectives or a set of objectives, like students should be able to do X and Y under conditions P and Q to the degree of Z, right? 00:03:28.304 --> 00:03:37.034 Very specific, measurable, objective, and then design a path that kind of shortens the distance and enhances the quality. 00:03:37.564 --> 00:03:47.494 Of the journey from not knowing something or being able to do something to knowing something or being able to do something, which means that you have to do a needs analysis, an audience analysis. 00:03:47.734 --> 00:03:49.804 What are kind of like the larger goals for this? 00:03:49.804 --> 00:03:50.704 Is it for the person? 00:03:50.704 --> 00:03:56.374 Is it for the, you know, return on investment of this training in an institution? 00:03:56.554 --> 00:03:56.974 Right? 00:03:57.164 --> 00:04:06.254 Breaking complex skills into smaller steps, building practice and feedback into the experience and evaluating whether or not what you did worked. 00:04:06.969 --> 00:04:07.959 At the end. 00:04:07.959 --> 00:04:20.459 So it's not just making content look nice in an online format or in the resources and materials you're given, which a lot of the time I think that that's what people think instructional designers do. 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:28.019 Especially like in the LMS space, they kind of conflate course developers with instructional designers, which are kind of different things, but they work together. 00:04:28.239 --> 00:04:30.484 It's systematically designing instruction. 00:04:31.179 --> 00:04:33.129 So learning is more likely to happen. 00:04:33.129 --> 00:04:52.699 The history of it goes back to like before or during World War II when we had a dearth of pilots and the US air Force was just like, we need a training program to get people who have never flown before into planes taking off, flying, shooting, flying back, and landing safely. 00:04:52.789 --> 00:04:55.669 So they got all these psychologists together to. 00:04:56.089 --> 00:05:00.199 Figure out how to best create that training line. 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:05.899 And that was kind of the birth of what was, I think then called Instructional systems design. 00:05:06.139 --> 00:05:09.219 That might've came after the first name for it. 00:05:09.219 --> 00:05:16.359 But that's basically where it comes from and it's evolved into all sorts of different areas and verticals, and it applies to learning institutions. 00:05:16.359 --> 00:05:20.684 And they're more, ever since COVID especially, they're more the field is growing and growing. 00:05:21.089 --> 00:05:32.669 Well, what's interesting, before you brought technology into it, and just to reflect on your answer, the technology piece was a much smaller piece of your answer. 00:05:33.059 --> 00:05:42.399 If somebody were to just start listening and hear your response about what instructional design is, it sounds a lot like instruction. 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.059 So, so what was your background, you know, to get into this? 00:05:47.029 --> 00:05:57.369 So, the, it's interesting what you say about the technology piece being secondary 'cause it's part of my educational philosophy or philosophy as an instructional designer is that technology should never drive pedagogy. 00:05:57.939 --> 00:06:00.039 Pedagogy should drive technology decisions. 00:06:00.939 --> 00:06:12.119 So we're not putting the cart before the horse or trying to shoehorn the right solution to the wrong problem which often happens because people are always trying to get ahead of the market on specific things. 00:06:12.119 --> 00:06:21.859 We'll see, we're kind of seeing that with ai, people are trying to bolt AI onto everything instruction when that's really putting the cart before the horse, and there's a long way to go with that. 00:06:21.859 --> 00:06:31.409 And I, I digress there, but my background was, like I, I mean, I was a bartender for years and did a lot of different jobs. 00:06:31.409 --> 00:06:32.369 I was a writer. 00:06:32.449 --> 00:06:34.429 The recession happened and I went back to being a bartender. 00:06:34.429 --> 00:06:35.539 I was a truck driver, all that stuff. 00:06:35.539 --> 00:06:45.089 And then eventually I found my way to teaching ESL abroad during the recession in like oh 8, 0 9, up to, you know, you know, 2011 and all that stuff. 00:06:45.089 --> 00:06:48.509 I would go back and forth and I really learned how to teach. 00:06:49.037 --> 00:06:53.257 And then I went back to the same school that had this wonderful methodology. 00:06:53.597 --> 00:06:58.157 And students were learning and you could see progress, and it was just really well designed instruction. 00:06:58.157 --> 00:07:14.847 You could tell that the materials were designed by an instructional designer with subject matter experts held to a really high standard, and all of a sudden they switched to a tech model where they gave kids tablets and they went from like very solid, explicit instruction. 00:07:15.747 --> 00:07:25.047 To much more of like a constructivist model with technology and you just saw it just tank in terms of outcomes, like immediately. 00:07:25.497 --> 00:07:29.637 Because they basically like the kids a toy to put you in between them. 00:07:29.637 --> 00:07:31.077 All these different distractions. 00:07:31.077 --> 00:07:32.517 There's all this other stuff going on. 00:07:32.517 --> 00:07:34.827 You weren't like, you were trying to get them to discover stuff. 00:07:35.247 --> 00:07:37.257 Based on like knowledge they didn't have. 00:07:37.587 --> 00:07:42.927 And I was really frustrated and I didn't really know what instructional design was at the time. 00:07:43.047 --> 00:07:47.427 And I was constantly complaining in the teacher's lounge about it, about the change. 00:07:47.457 --> 00:07:58.447 And my friend Thomas was just, he was taking a class in instructional design at Texas a and m at the time, and he's just like, I think you'd be really interested in this, 'cause what you're saying aligns with what they've been teaching us here. 00:07:59.017 --> 00:08:01.717 So I kind of discovered it that way. 00:08:02.047 --> 00:08:06.367 And then before you know it, I was in a graduate program for instructional design. 00:08:06.887 --> 00:08:10.157 And then I just, you know, through that became an instructional designer. 00:08:10.787 --> 00:08:14.447 So in your coursework, in instructional design, did a graduate level? 00:08:14.452 --> 00:08:14.592 Mm-hmm. 00:08:14.692 --> 00:08:15.152 How much. 00:08:16.037 --> 00:08:19.477 Because I know that you in your post you talk about science of learning. 00:08:19.477 --> 00:08:22.027 You talk about a lot of the topics in that. 00:08:22.327 --> 00:08:26.047 Was that included in any of your coursework, those conversations? 00:08:26.677 --> 00:08:34.747 Yeah, so like all of the, like the coursework was very much like entry level points to all of those things, right? 00:08:34.747 --> 00:08:39.277 They give you really good, solid foundation in a lot of that stuff. 00:08:39.277 --> 00:08:44.647 And it was kind of like a buffet and wherever you wanted to dig deeper. 00:08:45.217 --> 00:08:46.327 You could dig deeper. 00:08:46.957 --> 00:08:52.567 And then afterward, I just got really intensely I guess obsessed with learning theory. 00:08:53.667 --> 00:08:57.267 And that was something that really led into how things apply. 00:08:57.327 --> 00:09:00.547 Like at first I was talking a lot about like, oh, like this is the theory. 00:09:00.547 --> 00:09:01.387 This is how it works. 00:09:01.387 --> 00:09:02.947 Here are the frameworks, this is how it works. 00:09:03.187 --> 00:09:17.097 But then I didn't really give a whole lot of consideration to how that would be delivered, what it would look like in the classroom, what it would look like in the training center, what it would look like, one-to-one apprentice mentor, what it would look like in a coaching situation. 00:09:17.157 --> 00:09:18.537 Again, learning is very contextual. 00:09:18.537 --> 00:09:19.467 So the theory kind of. 00:09:19.782 --> 00:09:21.252 Provides the grounding. 00:09:21.657 --> 00:09:24.917 But it has to change and shift and all of that stuff. 00:09:24.917 --> 00:09:34.187 So in the grad program, it gave you a lot of hands-on project-based stuff, but also tons of reading to really understand what the implications of these things were. 00:09:34.487 --> 00:09:38.957 You know, what the difference between schools of thought were, where they came from, what they were aiming at. 00:09:39.077 --> 00:09:41.417 But ultimately afterward it was just like. 00:09:41.767 --> 00:09:46.597 It kind of felt like, you know, going through a bootcamp as like, here are all the tools you need to survive. 00:09:46.867 --> 00:09:53.437 And then when you're out in the field, you're gonna realize which ones you don't need and which ones you need to be able to do better, you know? 00:09:54.907 --> 00:10:04.917 So is it, is your background unique, having a teaching background in this and I know you are in a supervisorial role now. 00:10:05.317 --> 00:10:06.787 Is it something that you look for? 00:10:07.817 --> 00:10:19.667 That type of background when you are hiring people or training people or well, I don't think that my, my background in, in teaching per se, is unique to this position. 00:10:19.697 --> 00:10:25.817 I think my background in the service industry might be because it's kind of, you know, a heady academic field. 00:10:26.707 --> 00:10:31.357 Like TE teaching isn't a prerequisite to be an instructional designer, I don't think. 00:10:31.357 --> 00:10:33.517 I think a lot of teachers will say it is. 00:10:34.297 --> 00:10:35.467 That's a really good question. 00:10:35.497 --> 00:10:36.577 It's not something I look for. 00:10:36.577 --> 00:10:50.567 If you have teaching background, it helps because you kind of understand whether or not something might work based on the behavioral conditions, uhhuh of whatever environment it is you're delivering this designed instruction and understanding like, you know, learners' needs and stuff like that. 00:10:50.567 --> 00:10:54.282 Accessibility how and reconciling the design with the delivery. 00:10:54.862 --> 00:10:55.892 But I don't really. 00:10:57.352 --> 00:10:58.162 Look for that. 00:10:58.162 --> 00:10:59.392 I don't hire much. 00:10:59.572 --> 00:11:08.642 I have two contract workers that work under me, and then I work with a team of directors laterally and in honor to them, they have contract workers and full-time workers. 00:11:09.122 --> 00:11:15.072 And I'm mainly concerned with the media piece and designing instructional media and. 00:11:16.077 --> 00:11:33.697 What I look for in, what I was looking for in the people that I hired who are fantastic is proficiency and consistency with the tool and understanding how to where the applied piece is from the theoretical base. 00:11:34.927 --> 00:11:50.227 And if they were just familiar with a couple of, they didn't need to be full on instructional designers or needed to be full on teachers, but they needed to be able to create things using a set of premises principles and practices that aligned with our goals as a team. 00:11:51.217 --> 00:11:51.367 Okay. 00:11:51.367 --> 00:11:53.947 So let's talk about, you're at Columbia. 00:11:53.947 --> 00:11:56.077 Who are your clients? 00:11:56.377 --> 00:11:57.067 Who are your clients? 00:11:57.067 --> 00:11:58.387 Who do you design? 00:11:58.867 --> 00:12:04.927 These products for, and actually, when you're done designing a product, what is it? 00:12:04.977 --> 00:12:06.237 What does the product look like? 00:12:07.287 --> 00:12:12.872 Oh well, what for the instructional design side and the instructional media side, they work together. 00:12:13.652 --> 00:12:19.982 So I started as an instructional designer, moved to senior designer, then moved to associate director of instructional design and media. 00:12:20.222 --> 00:12:26.202 So the media thing is, that kind of falls under my purview in the larger instructional design team. 00:12:26.502 --> 00:12:34.937 So, our main clients are the academic programs at SPS in Columbia. 00:12:34.937 --> 00:12:35.452 So you have. 00:12:36.127 --> 00:12:42.967 They're all master's degree programs and they're all very like, market focused and you kind of very applied. 00:12:43.337 --> 00:12:45.977 So like wealth management is one. 00:12:46.097 --> 00:12:50.327 Enterprise risk management, conflict negotiation and resolution. 00:12:50.747 --> 00:12:52.207 Information and knowledge. 00:12:52.577 --> 00:12:53.747 There's a lot of, you know, very. 00:12:54.302 --> 00:13:00.372 Kind of white collar, I guess, job focus training in these, you know, master's programs. 00:13:00.612 --> 00:13:07.492 So our kind of main clients are each program and then they would pair us, or at least request. 00:13:08.392 --> 00:13:12.682 Support for instructional design on any one of their courses or several of their courses. 00:13:13.162 --> 00:13:27.352 And we would get paired with the subject matter ex expert, which is the faculty member who is teaching this course, and they would come in with some goals and resources and an idea of what they want to teach or a ready mid course already. 00:13:27.352 --> 00:13:35.997 And then they would work with an instructional designer to shore all that stuff up, tighten it, make it to standards, make sure things are accessible, things work in the LMS. 00:13:36.327 --> 00:13:38.847 Things are lean, but, you know, not easy. 00:13:39.107 --> 00:13:41.057 And to reach an amount of rigor. 00:13:41.057 --> 00:13:48.992 There's a lot of like committees like on instruction that make sure that the the syllabus is tight and to standards and aligned. 00:13:49.332 --> 00:13:51.392 And there's a balance of. 00:13:51.832 --> 00:13:56.792 Like academic resources with like market resources, you know, more practitioner based. 00:13:56.792 --> 00:14:02.582 'cause we have a scholar practitioner model and then they decide whether or not they need media created. 00:14:03.017 --> 00:14:15.157 And this could be like video lectures job aids or one pagers to help people redesigns of slide decks to make them a bit more instructional focused than either like, you know, just looking nice. 00:14:15.367 --> 00:14:17.167 So that, that's kind of what we do. 00:14:17.167 --> 00:14:22.117 So a product would be a course and in the. 00:14:22.372 --> 00:14:26.452 The media area, it would be a piece of media or several pieces of media. 00:14:26.452 --> 00:14:32.482 It could be producing a podcast, it could be doing a set of lecture videos, some animated explainers. 00:14:32.602 --> 00:14:34.672 It could be a one pager, it could be a slide deck. 00:14:34.672 --> 00:14:39.607 So there's all of these different kind of instructional products that get made out of the. 00:14:40.312 --> 00:14:54.282 You know, the development system, which then all COHEs at the end to one very tightly aligned intentional course that we can maximize the learning out of according to what objectives were set. 00:14:54.822 --> 00:15:00.612 So just my check for understanding you're talking about developing asynchronous courses. 00:15:01.242 --> 00:15:08.832 That may be within the university in a master's program or something that somebody from outside could also access. 00:15:08.862 --> 00:15:10.092 Well, they're not all asynchronous. 00:15:10.092 --> 00:15:11.172 Some of them are asynchronous. 00:15:11.177 --> 00:15:11.237 Okay. 00:15:11.242 --> 00:15:11.952 Some of them are not. 00:15:12.292 --> 00:15:13.852 So some are synchronous online. 00:15:13.852 --> 00:15:19.582 Some of are hybrid, some of 'em are fully synchronous or a are asynchronous. 00:15:19.632 --> 00:15:22.602 But even those asynchronous courses have office hours. 00:15:23.292 --> 00:15:24.582 Where everyone goes at the same time. 00:15:24.582 --> 00:15:26.502 So it's not exactly that. 00:15:26.502 --> 00:15:33.072 So you have like the video lectures, and then you have like basically clarification sessions in the office hours, which everybody goes to. 00:15:33.402 --> 00:15:33.462 Okay. 00:15:33.462 --> 00:15:38.172 So the it's, yeah, not fully asynchronous, even though they're labeled as such. 00:15:38.697 --> 00:15:59.127 And they're all, you know, the cohorts are all filled with people with lots of experience, adults with lots of experience in that field who want to get these more advanced degrees to either advance their career or update their information about the field because they might have been siloed in their job that they've been in for 20 years. 00:15:59.577 --> 00:16:03.777 And they want to understand what a, you know, what's been updated, what's been not. 00:16:04.767 --> 00:16:06.447 Or just networking purposes. 00:16:06.627 --> 00:16:11.932 depends on, so it kind of goes back to your initial answer about context and audience and that sort of thing. 00:16:12.352 --> 00:16:13.492 Every time you give an answer. 00:16:13.492 --> 00:16:17.452 I have another question because I, things that I, there's so much, I don't know. 00:16:17.742 --> 00:16:22.752 You're making a distinction I think between instructional media and media. 00:16:24.192 --> 00:16:26.112 Well, what, can you talk about that? 00:16:26.122 --> 00:16:27.387 What is the difference? 00:16:27.717 --> 00:16:28.077 Sure. 00:16:28.127 --> 00:16:37.007 I explain this quite often and sometimes it doesn't always get across because of our set schemas around things like media. 00:16:37.007 --> 00:16:48.837 So, like most media as we learn in school is to like, inform, persuade, or entertain, you know, that could be a, you know, your piece of writing or a video or whatever it is you're making. 00:16:49.632 --> 00:16:53.632 Instructional media instructional, underlined can do all those things. 00:16:53.632 --> 00:16:56.542 They can inform, persuade, and entertain, and hopefully they do. 00:16:56.542 --> 00:17:02.482 But those are necessary but not sufficient conditions for optimal learning. 00:17:02.632 --> 00:17:08.212 Now, like it doesn't mean you can't learn from something that isn't designed as a piece of instructional media. 00:17:08.212 --> 00:17:09.952 Of course you can, but. 00:17:10.462 --> 00:17:17.437 If you really wanna optimize the media for learning specifically it, it ends up being a little bit of a different thing. 00:17:17.437 --> 00:17:22.057 So what makes instructional media different is it's built to scaffold understanding, right? 00:17:22.367 --> 00:17:28.217 Support skill building, and help learners from like kind of form these like durable connections they can use later. 00:17:28.457 --> 00:17:31.472 And that comes from using a set of like com cognitive premises. 00:17:32.112 --> 00:17:34.547 On, on how the brain works or the mind works. 00:17:34.977 --> 00:17:40.847 A set of multimedia learning principles and, you know, maybe some UX stuff, gestalt principles, stuff like that. 00:17:40.947 --> 00:17:48.207 But mainly multimedia learning principles that come from the great and wonderful Richard Mayer, who's one of my heroes in this space. 00:17:48.577 --> 00:17:53.517 And a set of best practices on how to, like design activities and how to carry these things out. 00:17:53.517 --> 00:17:58.707 Also, how do we build in accessibility and, you know, control for bias and stuff like that. 00:17:59.677 --> 00:18:01.867 But all this stuff has to scale too. 00:18:02.557 --> 00:18:06.847 So you have, you can't, you're never gonna have a perfect piece of instructional media. 00:18:07.057 --> 00:18:19.897 You'll have a really effective one that's based on like, you know, these principles that you apply that have very large effect sizes, but you still have to really work hard to step back at some point in time and not let perfect be the enemy of execution. 00:18:20.897 --> 00:18:27.547 As one of my friends says you never wanna let good be the enemy of good enough, especially where you are working with these huge things. 00:18:27.547 --> 00:18:38.167 So you have to do, keep in mind that like media's gonna work, whether it's instructionally designed or not, but an instructional, a piece of instructional media is going to work better. 00:18:39.007 --> 00:18:40.327 And that's what we do. 00:18:40.687 --> 00:18:46.397 It's kind of a game of inches and you just really want to make it as conducive to learning. 00:18:46.817 --> 00:18:49.877 Effectively, efficiently and enjoyably for the learner. 00:18:49.937 --> 00:18:51.742 It's all about the end user. 00:18:57.606 --> 00:19:01.491 You know, I'm people ask me where I grew up mm-hmm. 00:19:01.731 --> 00:19:05.721 And I could tell 'em, you know, I lived at a certain place for a certain amount of time. 00:19:05.721 --> 00:19:09.301 I don't know if I got any more mature, if I grew up or not. 00:19:09.691 --> 00:19:14.781 But when I ever have done any sort of online learning. 00:19:15.411 --> 00:19:16.851 Asynchronous or not? 00:19:17.551 --> 00:19:21.951 My attention wanes, I'm in and out, like we're speaking. 00:19:22.341 --> 00:19:25.041 I've been looking forward to this conversation for a week. 00:19:25.191 --> 00:19:28.474 Yet every time I get a notification on my phone, I gotta check, you know? 00:19:28.474 --> 00:19:28.564 Yeah. 00:19:28.744 --> 00:19:33.574 So, so having said that, what sort of things do you do to make sure. 00:19:34.129 --> 00:19:42.209 Or at least do the best you can to ensure that folks are remembering content a week later or whenever the next session is. 00:19:42.629 --> 00:19:43.859 That's a great question. 00:19:43.909 --> 00:19:46.429 And this is where kind of the applied part comes in. 00:19:46.549 --> 00:19:48.649 So I had the baseline theoretical stuff. 00:19:48.649 --> 00:19:50.059 You need to do these things. 00:19:50.439 --> 00:19:53.169 But what are those things and how do you carry them out? 00:19:53.529 --> 00:19:56.269 So, dis first off your point about distraction. 00:19:56.269 --> 00:19:59.059 Distraction is the arch villain. 00:19:59.674 --> 00:20:02.674 Of learning or just doing anything. 00:20:02.944 --> 00:20:03.274 Right. 00:20:03.304 --> 00:20:03.874 Distraction. 00:20:04.114 --> 00:20:15.694 And we live in a world of constant distraction and you know, everybody wants to drive engagement for their thing, which means that they have to distract their targets from other things that they're doing. 00:20:15.934 --> 00:20:16.384 Right. 00:20:16.564 --> 00:20:20.164 Engagement's great, but like doesn't mean that just 'cause you're engaged, you're gonna learn anything. 00:20:20.824 --> 00:20:27.264 You could be engaged because you are being presented with a multitude of entertaining distractions. 00:20:27.354 --> 00:20:29.484 Doesn't mean that you're gonna learn anything from it. 00:20:29.664 --> 00:20:34.714 So we operate, as I said, on like kind of premises principles and practices. 00:20:34.894 --> 00:20:36.964 So there's three main premises. 00:20:36.964 --> 00:20:39.094 I'm gonna look at my notes here because I don't wanna plum anything. 00:20:39.644 --> 00:20:40.634 There's three men premises. 00:20:41.639 --> 00:20:43.139 That I design under. 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.399 And one is that working memory is very limited for anyone listening doesn't know. 00:20:47.399 --> 00:20:50.009 Working memory is what you're currently thinking about. 00:20:50.009 --> 00:20:55.379 And there's limited store and limited or limited capacity and limited time. 00:20:55.589 --> 00:21:05.314 So you can only think of like, you know, you know, five plus or minus two things at once for 30, around 30 seconds without having to rere rehearse it, right? 00:21:05.314 --> 00:21:06.094 Otherwise it goes out. 00:21:07.164 --> 00:21:13.174 So you have a very limited capacity for that which allow, which, which affords for a lot of distractions to creep in. 00:21:13.174 --> 00:21:17.954 And you can jump from one thing to another because we kind of operate on benefits and threats detection. 00:21:18.404 --> 00:21:24.074 So anything that may, might be a distraction that causes threat or benefit, and then we go to that thing, right? 00:21:24.124 --> 00:21:32.614 A lot of the time it's, we think it's a benefit because it's giving us dopamine, but it's actually a threat because it's sapping our attention and focus from something else. 00:21:32.614 --> 00:21:34.379 So limited working memory. 00:21:35.304 --> 00:21:43.164 The second premise is that learners are active processors of information, not passive, consumers of it when it comes to learning things. 00:21:43.404 --> 00:21:49.934 So they have to be actively doing something, attaching new information to prior knowledge. 00:21:49.934 --> 00:21:54.984 We can only think of the unknown in terms of the known, and we have to think analogically. 00:21:55.104 --> 00:21:56.934 We make relationships between things. 00:21:56.934 --> 00:22:00.474 This is how we process information so we don't forget it. 00:22:01.104 --> 00:22:02.844 Understand it and make meaning out of it. 00:22:02.994 --> 00:22:04.764 And the third one is that learning improves. 00:22:05.274 --> 00:22:07.044 And this is especially for media. 00:22:07.384 --> 00:22:18.264 When we optimize what's called dual coding Alan Pao is a researcher who came up with dual coding, is basically we learn better from words and visuals together rather than words or visuals alone. 00:22:19.034 --> 00:22:25.784 They, these two things form a better signal in our mind when they're presented simultaneously. 00:22:25.814 --> 00:22:26.684 It's dual coding. 00:22:26.714 --> 00:22:27.914 You're coding two things. 00:22:28.334 --> 00:22:28.784 Together. 00:22:29.414 --> 00:22:39.594 So that means that we're, as instructional media designers we're challenged to make sure that one, we manage kind of an essential processing. 00:22:39.594 --> 00:22:40.374 That active processing. 00:22:40.374 --> 00:22:47.484 How do we sort the need to know from the nice to know and then get the relevant information into the heads of the learners most effectively. 00:22:48.054 --> 00:22:54.414 Well, we do this by making sure that the resources and the exercises are aligned with the objectives. 00:22:54.414 --> 00:22:56.484 Alignment is an overriding quality, right. 00:22:57.409 --> 00:23:00.139 And then everything else about relevance kind of falls into place. 00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.169 Two, we have to optimize for cognitive load. 00:23:03.499 --> 00:23:08.804 So how do we eliminate distractions provide clarity for the learner without kind of like. 00:23:09.629 --> 00:23:14.164 Being super obvious about it, you know, Don Norman said, good design is invisible. 00:23:14.554 --> 00:23:23.184 And I always try to keep that in mind that the design is supposed to serve the function of what you're giving them, rather than showing off to the design itself. 00:23:23.454 --> 00:23:25.224 And also how do we improve focus, right? 00:23:25.254 --> 00:23:33.394 So we do that by applying these multimedia learning principles to units of structure units of instruction and content and media. 00:23:33.784 --> 00:23:34.819 And then the third. 00:23:35.764 --> 00:23:38.374 Challenge that we have is how do we foster generation? 00:23:38.674 --> 00:23:42.034 So how do we get learners to generate ideas? 00:23:42.034 --> 00:23:44.134 Remember, we're active processors of information. 00:23:44.314 --> 00:23:50.884 How do we get 'em to retrieve concepts and create deeper understanding for the next time they have to generate something? 00:23:51.244 --> 00:23:58.234 So the way we do that is we scaffold moments in the run of the media where learners. 00:23:58.969 --> 00:24:03.169 They really have to do something with the information, not just hear it right. 00:24:03.379 --> 00:24:05.989 Then you you space out your assessments. 00:24:06.169 --> 00:24:17.119 Hopefully you can strategically time those spaced assessments, like right before the learner is probably gonna re forget some of the key things that they're supposed to know. 00:24:17.669 --> 00:24:20.939 You make them generate those ideas again, because as it turns out, like. 00:24:21.464 --> 00:24:28.814 We make a like much stronger memories and connections when we encode them really well to begin with. 00:24:29.444 --> 00:24:37.574 And then when we retrieve them, like right before we're about to forget them, our brain kind of puts a mental hashtag on those things. 00:24:37.574 --> 00:24:39.104 Is oh, hashtag useful. 00:24:39.914 --> 00:24:45.774 It was about to kind of fall out of your, you know, re, you know, strength and retrieval memory. 00:24:46.329 --> 00:24:49.299 Then you brought it up again at this moment, even after a long time. 00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:51.699 So you must probably need to know it later on. 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.189 So it forms stronger connections or ngrams in your brain. 00:24:55.189 --> 00:24:56.809 That's kind of how we do that, right? 00:24:56.809 --> 00:25:07.819 You operate on these premises, you apply these principles, and then you make sure that these practices are in place so you can have the best possible conditions in that piece of media. 00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:09.679 That's gonna help the learner learn what they need to know. 00:25:09.994 --> 00:25:12.289 Hopefully that wasn't too long-winded What? 00:25:12.938 --> 00:25:13.358 Just kidding. 00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:26.922 well, it seems like two things going on with in, with instructional design in, as I was following your answer, one, the importance of, it sounds like you are working with someone to design a course. 00:25:27.342 --> 00:25:32.952 Somebody just says, oh, Dave, please design a course on X. No you're working with someone. 00:25:33.372 --> 00:25:50.857 And it would seem like when you're in this design phase about the design that you just talked about with regards to cognitive load retrieval practice working memory, et cetera it seems like there needs to be a knowledge from the instructor as well. 00:25:51.802 --> 00:26:03.352 Because whether it's asynchronous with office hours a hybrid model, they can't, they have to know how good you designed this stuff to be able to take advantage of it. 00:26:03.532 --> 00:26:04.852 Does that make sense? 00:26:05.542 --> 00:26:06.562 Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:06.562 --> 00:26:11.102 You and at the end of the day, this is their course, so they make the final decisions on it. 00:26:11.102 --> 00:26:14.302 So you have to form a lot of relationships to build trust. 00:26:14.677 --> 00:26:17.317 And confidence and the skills that you have. 00:26:17.317 --> 00:26:18.547 You do this by modeling. 00:26:18.667 --> 00:26:36.017 You do this by doing a lot of discovery at the onset and really trying to understand what and empathize with what the instructor is trying to do, and then make recommendations for selection filtering organization that they can map out, and then we can fill in together. 00:26:36.372 --> 00:26:42.402 So it's not just, you know, me and my team making all this stuff and then being like, here you go, professor. 00:26:42.712 --> 00:26:57.172 It's all of us working as a team together to make sure everybody's in alignment and doing it in, you know, a timely fashion that when they leave the, whatever working session that we have, that they leave feeling better than when they came into it. 00:26:57.872 --> 00:27:02.432 And the relationship piece is something that they really don't teach you in grad school about it. 00:27:02.462 --> 00:27:03.792 And I feel like that's where I kind of got. 00:27:05.157 --> 00:27:12.892 I've kind of felt like, you know, bartending and serving really kind of carried over into this work, and I didn't really realize that's what was happening. 00:27:12.892 --> 00:27:22.132 It's just relationship building, listening, you know, talking to people on their level and instead of trying to like teach them what, you know, to get them to like buy in. 00:27:22.402 --> 00:27:26.332 Yeah, it's, you use what you know to help them accomplish their goals. 00:27:26.422 --> 00:27:28.642 You don't need to tell 'em how the sausage is made. 00:27:28.642 --> 00:27:31.762 You just need to give them like an array of sausages to choose from. 00:27:32.182 --> 00:27:37.672 And then recommend which one would go best with, you know, whatever dish that they're adding it to. 00:27:38.182 --> 00:27:52.367 So, speaking of relationships I know one of the things that is very popular in, you know, in-person education, and now with the technology, you know, that in this virtual space. 00:27:53.257 --> 00:27:56.137 You know, like, I know Zoom has meeting rooms mm-hmm. 00:27:56.377 --> 00:28:00.827 Where people break off and get into groups and do these things. 00:28:01.107 --> 00:28:04.747 What's your thoughts about this group work especially online? 00:28:04.877 --> 00:28:09.377 What is, how did, do you have to have design thoughts about that? 00:28:10.157 --> 00:28:14.927 So group work is tricky because we have to kind of define what it is first, right? 00:28:14.927 --> 00:28:18.737 So a breakout room in an instructional session online is great. 00:28:19.247 --> 00:28:19.607 It's good. 00:28:19.607 --> 00:28:24.152 It gives you, you know, a break from the initial lecture so you can go and do something with other people. 00:28:25.532 --> 00:28:28.772 And then kind of, you know, you get the empathy piece there too. 00:28:28.772 --> 00:28:29.732 Like, did you understand it? 00:28:29.732 --> 00:28:30.362 No, I didn't understand. 00:28:30.362 --> 00:28:30.542 Okay. 00:28:30.542 --> 00:28:32.252 Let's have a conversation and figure out what that meant. 00:28:32.492 --> 00:28:32.852 Right. 00:28:32.972 --> 00:28:41.362 And then, you know, if the breakout room is well designed and moderated and you know, you're keeping them on track or you're giving them some kind of template. 00:28:42.352 --> 00:28:47.182 Like you give 'em a Google Doc with a pre-designed template, you put 'em in breakout rooms and like, this is group one's template. 00:28:47.182 --> 00:28:52.582 And then they can all work in that because they have a, an advance organizer that keeps them on track and guided. 00:28:52.582 --> 00:28:57.772 So guided is, guided instruction is really paramount in those type of things. 00:28:57.772 --> 00:28:59.392 And that kind of group work is great. 00:29:00.262 --> 00:29:07.742 But when it comes to like project work, right, like you do in a group project or something it kind of falls apart. 00:29:07.742 --> 00:29:09.062 And I don't think it's just online. 00:29:09.122 --> 00:29:09.842 I think group work. 00:29:10.577 --> 00:29:20.237 Fails in all contexts, online, face-to-face, whatever, hybrid, you know, they all I tend to fail when it comes to what they set out to achieve. 00:29:20.987 --> 00:29:31.577 So I think it's because we kind of fail to make the distinction between collaboration and cooperation. 00:29:32.027 --> 00:29:35.327 So that's usually unclear. 00:29:35.897 --> 00:29:41.147 Either for the instructor, the in instructional designer, and especially the participants. 00:29:41.387 --> 00:29:56.867 So collaboration, just so I can make the distinction clear means everyone is responsible for learning everything and working on everything and coming together to synthesize that knowledge under very well-defined and equitable production roles. 00:29:57.332 --> 00:29:57.782 Right. 00:29:57.842 --> 00:30:04.382 So everyone does everything, and then everyone has their roles, and they usually rotate those roles at certain points in the group work. 00:30:04.622 --> 00:30:07.892 And then everybody, you know, you make a whole thing together. 00:30:08.732 --> 00:30:17.642 However, if there aren't intentionally designed guardrails like that, the Pareto principle kicks in, and then 20% of the people end up doing 80% of the work. 00:30:18.032 --> 00:30:25.712 And I think anyone listening to this who has ever been in a group project knows that there's always some schmuck who says immediately, oh, I'll do the intro. 00:30:25.712 --> 00:30:26.372 I call the intro. 00:30:27.422 --> 00:30:34.352 And then collaboration becomes cooperation, meaning that each person is responsible for one part. 00:30:34.922 --> 00:30:48.452 So they learn that part and then they present that part and those parts get clicked or stitched together to make a presentation or a project that sat satisfies the group performance requirement. 00:30:48.797 --> 00:30:55.007 So you make the whole thing by putting disparate pieces together, which is different than collaboration. 00:30:55.427 --> 00:31:09.667 The big problem with that is that after each member only walks away with deep knowledge of their part only, and now they're dependent on others to fill in the gaps. 00:31:10.057 --> 00:31:15.607 So one value add to learning anything is building enough self-reliance in an area. 00:31:16.027 --> 00:31:21.457 That you can add value to a group when that you're, when you are in one, right? 00:31:21.877 --> 00:31:30.107 Not learn dependence on others in order to extract value from whatever group you happen to find yourself in. 00:31:30.467 --> 00:31:30.707 Right? 00:31:30.707 --> 00:31:35.027 So it kind of does the opposite of what it intends to do when you're cooperating. 00:31:35.657 --> 00:31:42.947 In a learning context, cooperation might be better in a business context when everyone just has to do their part to get to a performance outcome. 00:31:43.647 --> 00:31:47.037 But most groups in learning end up being cooperative. 00:31:47.247 --> 00:31:52.797 They might even start collaborative and then does devolve into cooperation rather than collaboration. 00:31:52.797 --> 00:32:02.587 One of the big issues with that is what it really just like makes the learning experience itself performance oriented rather than mastery. 00:32:03.217 --> 00:32:03.877 Oriented. 00:32:03.997 --> 00:32:11.857 So, like a quick explanation of what that means is that like students aren't doing this to learn the thing, they're doing it to get a score. 00:32:12.577 --> 00:32:20.257 So they're oriented toward the performance and how it's gonna be scored rather than the learning and what they're gonna take away from it. 00:32:20.437 --> 00:32:30.997 And I always think that like a person who does a project on their own and let's say gets a c probably knows way more in the long run than a person who is part of a group that got an a. 00:32:32.212 --> 00:32:35.472 So there's this law that comes out of economics called Good Heart's Law. 00:32:35.472 --> 00:32:40.322 It basically means it basically states, once a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. 00:32:40.322 --> 00:32:45.242 And I think that's what performance orientation effectively does in learning context. 00:32:45.242 --> 00:32:54.102 It turns a measure into a target, and that may be one reason why many students who have completed prerequisites seem. 00:32:54.912 --> 00:33:00.432 To not have the requisite prior knowledge for a more advanced class and sequence and have to play catch up. 00:33:00.972 --> 00:33:04.032 And this applies to K through 12 and higher ed. 00:33:04.362 --> 00:33:07.062 And kind of they experience the same pattern. 00:33:07.542 --> 00:33:13.912 So that kind of general take is mine as cynical as it may be on group work. 00:33:14.302 --> 00:33:18.172 Well, I don't think it's, I don't think it's cynical at all. 00:33:18.172 --> 00:33:40.387 I think it's clarifying and we're gonna get away from instructional designers for a second and just talk about this because I know, well, even though we're a quarter of, of a century in talking about 21st century skills and one of the big collaboration, and we're gonna have kids, you know, every period in a group quote. 00:33:41.092 --> 00:33:42.592 Collaborating, unquote. 00:33:43.372 --> 00:33:53.567 And I think I think in my lifetime, my entire life, I have maybe been able to collaborate a couple times now. 00:33:53.777 --> 00:33:59.537 I think one of the skills that we went from our kids, the soft skills is cooperation. 00:34:00.462 --> 00:34:01.752 I think cooperation. 00:34:02.022 --> 00:34:07.752 We can design things like you just said, you know, or, you know, you said, I'll do the intro. 00:34:07.752 --> 00:34:12.242 I know in all the poster projects, there was somebody who was, had the best handwriting. 00:34:12.452 --> 00:34:14.762 You know, you're gonna, you're gonna do that piece. 00:34:14.762 --> 00:34:16.202 Never had to learn anything. 00:34:16.202 --> 00:34:17.422 Just tell me when to write. 00:34:17.962 --> 00:34:20.002 Not that, that's not important. 00:34:20.102 --> 00:34:31.932 In project management who can do this, who can do the, you know, that and be able to communicate effectively, but collaboration and building knowledge, synthesizing I think that's organic. 00:34:31.992 --> 00:34:34.992 I think it's just it's kind of magical when it happens. 00:34:35.202 --> 00:34:41.457 We can't put kids in a group and say, okay, collaborate and I can say that now and I'm gonna be quoting you. 00:34:41.952 --> 00:34:46.112 Dave I'm gonna take this transcript and I'm gonna take what you just said. 00:34:46.262 --> 00:34:47.612 I thought that was very good. 00:34:48.272 --> 00:34:48.662 Thanks. 00:34:48.722 --> 00:34:50.342 Yeah, I think that like, yeah, you're right. 00:34:50.342 --> 00:35:00.992 It's a very organic thing, like real collaboration and the magic in that and we're trying to like reverse engineer and then manufacture it and that never works. 00:35:01.202 --> 00:35:02.342 Like so when. 00:35:03.167 --> 00:35:09.077 I see a lot in like online discussion threads that are housed in l in LMS for higher education. 00:35:09.447 --> 00:35:19.717 They're trying to get kind of an authentic discussion going, but the real authentic discussion happens in the back channels, in the WhatsApp groups, right? 00:35:19.767 --> 00:35:21.897 In, in the chat threads and stuff like that. 00:35:21.987 --> 00:35:24.117 That's where people feel the safest. 00:35:24.402 --> 00:35:26.832 To say what they wanna say or admit fault. 00:35:26.892 --> 00:35:34.962 And then out of that, maybe that informs like the manufactured authentic conversation of a discussion thread. 00:35:35.412 --> 00:35:44.562 The thing you say about 21st century skills, which always makes me like kind of cringe, is that like, you know, collaboration, creativity, all of that stuff, whatever the Cs are. 00:35:45.022 --> 00:35:48.412 Like you can't have collaboration without knowledge building first. 00:35:48.412 --> 00:35:52.642 And I think that's what like 21st century skills kind of implies is that. 00:35:53.167 --> 00:35:57.427 You don't need to teach knowledge, you just need to teach the skills and then everything will fall into place. 00:35:57.457 --> 00:36:06.517 Like you can't, you know, you can't develop critical thinking skills if you have nothing to think critically about, you can't, you know, collaborate. 00:36:06.952 --> 00:36:10.402 On a project where you have no knowledge of the project. 00:36:10.402 --> 00:36:20.392 And I think the idea is that, no, through collaboration, through critical thinking, through creative practices, you'll build knowledge and just it doesn't really work that way for novices. 00:36:20.692 --> 00:36:25.162 You have to build a base of knowledge first before you can kind of do those higher order things. 00:36:26.507 --> 00:36:27.787 Here I agree. 00:36:28.147 --> 00:36:30.547 You know, now that we're, now that we're in agreement. 00:36:31.487 --> 00:36:32.177 I understand. 00:36:32.297 --> 00:36:34.517 I totally understand an answer. 00:36:35.027 --> 00:36:36.497 Do you have any questions for me? 00:36:37.487 --> 00:36:38.897 Yeah, I do. 00:36:38.957 --> 00:36:44.597 Because I am a media, I work in the media space in education and learning. 00:36:44.957 --> 00:36:46.457 You are podcaster. 00:36:46.462 --> 00:36:47.812 I've loved this podcast, by the way. 00:36:47.812 --> 00:36:49.192 I'm so thrilled to be on it. 00:36:49.222 --> 00:36:50.032 I was a little nervous. 00:36:50.037 --> 00:36:52.807 I was like I feel like I'm punching a butt, my weight being on this podcast. 00:36:53.737 --> 00:37:15.547 But through your podcasting experience, how has the act and the process and procedure of podcasting itself, you know, you know, gathering information on a potential interview coming up with sets of questions, how you want to kind of design it, not too rigid, but also not too loose, so it's not directionless. 00:37:16.147 --> 00:37:16.612 How does that. 00:37:17.797 --> 00:37:25.997 The process of then having the conversation, you know how they say that the the map is not the terrain or the plan never survives the battle. 00:37:26.087 --> 00:37:26.537 Right? 00:37:26.537 --> 00:37:26.627 Right. 00:37:26.847 --> 00:37:35.887 How do you reconcile what you plan with what actually happens, and then the editing process afterward and then coming back to it later and reviewing it and then getting response on that. 00:37:36.067 --> 00:37:41.657 How is that entire arc added to your. 00:37:42.132 --> 00:37:46.902 Your knowledge base practice philosophy of being an instructional coach? 00:37:47.202 --> 00:38:01.452 That's, I'm really curious about that because I feel people start podcasts or creative projects just 'cause they want to, it'll be fun and then they get so much more out of it in terms of like refining their process and then going through it each week. 00:38:02.017 --> 00:38:05.717 It's funny the genesis of this is I had a couple books. 00:38:06.392 --> 00:38:10.352 I wanted to sell the books, and I asked somebody, what should I do? 00:38:10.352 --> 00:38:12.092 And they said, oh, get a podcast. 00:38:12.602 --> 00:38:13.592 And then guess what? 00:38:13.622 --> 00:38:18.872 I am so terrible at promoting myself and promoting my products. 00:38:19.082 --> 00:38:21.092 It has had no impact at all. 00:38:21.182 --> 00:38:25.962 But what happened was the site benefits of what you're talking about. 00:38:26.302 --> 00:38:30.502 Because, you know, one of the things that I am very interested in. 00:38:30.907 --> 00:38:34.627 Is, you know, what to do with kids who aren't reading at grade level. 00:38:35.017 --> 00:38:54.687 And so the things that I, my knowledge, I've gained more knowledge, like you said, preparing to talk to Doug, la Ma preparing to talk to Faith Howard, preparing to talk to those people, watching their videos, watching everything that I, man I don't know about anybody else, but I learned a lot preparing. 00:38:55.197 --> 00:39:13.027 And and then the other thing for me, I just like talking to people, you know, it's so much fun talking to people and talking to people with whom I know that if I met in real life, you know, we'd get along for at least half hour, you know, that we'd have fun. 00:39:13.357 --> 00:39:18.847 So it has become, you know, the arc is, I was very selfish. 00:39:19.462 --> 00:39:30.712 Then I became a great learner because I realized that I needed to prepare, and that preparation means I needed to find out something about everybody. 00:39:30.892 --> 00:39:38.807 And I will confess that I'm looking for videos with you and I watched five minutes of a video with somebody about. 00:39:39.452 --> 00:39:42.302 What the LMS code was supposed to be or something. 00:39:42.552 --> 00:39:54.402 And I said, you know, I am over my head in this but what you're saying is true, you know, just preparing and finding out about folks just have blurted a tremendous amount. 00:39:54.522 --> 00:39:59.982 And so right now writing and literacy in secondary schools is my big. 00:40:01.107 --> 00:40:02.297 My big search. 00:40:03.377 --> 00:40:04.697 Yeah, I think that's wonderful. 00:40:04.697 --> 00:40:12.977 'cause it speaks to not only your character, which is great, but like it speaks to this idea that like, you do have to build knowledge first. 00:40:12.977 --> 00:40:14.807 Like you kept going back to preparation. 00:40:15.017 --> 00:40:15.857 Preparation. 00:40:15.857 --> 00:40:19.307 That's a synonym for knowledge building, right? 00:40:19.487 --> 00:40:19.607 Yeah. 00:40:19.607 --> 00:40:23.217 Like it isn't just like, okay, we're gonna do the process, show up and I'm just gonna talk to you. 00:40:23.417 --> 00:40:24.047 You spent. 00:40:24.707 --> 00:40:36.287 A considerable amount of time preparing all this stuff, building knowledge so we could have a good conversation, not just having a, you know, some offhand conversation, so maybe you get something out of it later on. 00:40:36.617 --> 00:40:40.607 There is intention in that's instructional design, right? 00:40:40.727 --> 00:40:50.027 Is creating the necessary conditions with the, you know, minimal viable content or requisite knowledge in order to shorten the distance between not knowing and knowing. 00:40:50.462 --> 00:40:52.652 Or doing and not doing right. 00:40:52.802 --> 00:40:53.582 Those kinds of things. 00:40:53.582 --> 00:40:53.887 So, yeah. 00:40:53.942 --> 00:40:54.062 Yeah. 00:40:54.062 --> 00:40:56.177 I'm, I, it pleases me to hear your. 00:40:56.852 --> 00:41:00.992 Emphasis on preparation, which is why it's so easy to talk to you as well. 00:41:00.997 --> 00:41:02.942 Well, well, well, thank you, Dave. 00:41:02.942 --> 00:41:04.342 It was, really a pleasure. 00:41:04.342 --> 00:41:06.472 I hope folks get something out of this. 00:41:06.472 --> 00:41:10.652 Next time they see an online course you know, they see an online course. 00:41:10.712 --> 00:41:12.062 Everybody wants to do one. 00:41:12.332 --> 00:41:12.692 Right. 00:41:13.022 --> 00:41:16.022 You know, they say, oh, you know, have an online course. 00:41:16.022 --> 00:41:16.772 Make some dough. 00:41:17.072 --> 00:41:23.482 It's funny, my I'm gonna see one of my buddies tonight and he just like, recently had some back problems and he had back surgery and stuff like that. 00:41:23.482 --> 00:41:29.232 So he is been laid up and he's had an idea for an online course. 00:41:29.832 --> 00:41:31.722 And he's, I'm meeting him up tonight. 00:41:31.722 --> 00:41:32.682 He's like, let me pitch it to you. 00:41:32.682 --> 00:41:35.712 I wanna pitch it to you and maybe we could just make it together, you know, blah, blah, blah. 00:41:35.712 --> 00:41:40.002 So I did even like my buddies who have no interest in this stuff whatsoever. 00:41:40.002 --> 00:41:42.102 And when I do talk about it, their eyes glaze over. 00:41:42.662 --> 00:41:46.952 Are even just like, well, I think I, yeah, maybe I'll make a course myself 'cause there's so many out there. 00:41:47.282 --> 00:41:48.752 Right, right, right. 00:41:48.752 --> 00:41:49.862 Any final words? 00:41:49.932 --> 00:41:50.262 Dave? 00:41:51.477 --> 00:41:52.497 Final words. 00:41:52.557 --> 00:41:53.817 Do the source reading. 00:41:53.817 --> 00:41:55.407 Read the source material, please. 00:41:55.437 --> 00:42:03.267 Everybody out there before you adapt a model or a framework or a theory don't just base all your ideas on an infographic. 00:42:03.297 --> 00:42:08.512 That's how we get lethal mutations and things like Spawn, because they look nice and. 00:42:08.952 --> 00:42:10.992 We might be stripping the nuance out of them. 00:42:10.992 --> 00:42:20.962 So if you get in, if you get really excited by an idea, please do the read the source material because you're gonna get so much out of it and you're gonna feel, you know, so much more enlightened by it. 00:42:20.962 --> 00:42:24.262 Or you might feel like, oh, I had the wrong idea about this, you know? 00:42:24.572 --> 00:42:25.952 And I just see that way too much. 00:42:26.002 --> 00:42:33.102 And I think it's a source of a lot of unnecessary arguments that are trying to disguise themselves as debates and. 00:42:33.322 --> 00:42:36.412 We, it, this is like collaboration is key. 00:42:36.682 --> 00:42:36.952 Yeah. 00:42:36.952 --> 00:42:38.872 But knowledge building comes first. 00:42:38.872 --> 00:42:40.822 So please read the source material. 00:42:40.942 --> 00:42:41.452 All right. 00:42:41.752 --> 00:42:42.022 Great. 00:42:42.172 --> 00:42:44.002 Dave, it was a joy talking to you. 00:42:44.002 --> 00:42:47.572 I think people are going to really get a lot out of this episode. 00:42:47.572 --> 00:42:48.352 Thank you so much. 00:42:48.472 --> 00:42:49.012 Well, I hope so. 00:42:49.012 --> 00:42:50.182 Thank you so much for having me. 00:42:50.182 --> 00:42:52.762 I, a humbling experience being able to be on here. 00:42:53.092 --> 00:42:53.602 Appreciate it. 00:42:53.652 --> 00:42:54.372 Talk to you soon. 00:42:54.732 --> 00:42:54.972 All right. 00:42:54.972 --> 00:42:55.277 Take care. 00:42:57.327 --> 00:42:59.967 Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:43:00.267 --> 00:43:05.837 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:43:06.527 --> 00:43:16.607 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:43:17.017 --> 00:43:17.447 Tesscg. 00:43:18.437 --> 00:43:33.807 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.