WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.999 Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio. 00:00:11.999 --> 00:00:12.299 It's me, 00:00:12.589 --> 00:00:13.530 Rob: And me, Rob 00:00:14.159 --> 00:00:18.180 Kevin: and we are here today to talk about two more episodes of Star Trek Prodigy. 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:23.280 We have episode 15 Masquerade, and 16 Preludes. 00:00:23.310 --> 00:00:25.140 And Preludes. 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:25.380 Yeah. 00:00:25.589 --> 00:00:27.089 How, how, how fancy do you wanna be? 00:00:27.089 --> 00:00:28.710 How many syllables are there in 00:00:29.990 --> 00:00:34.580 Rob: I'll take, I'll, I'll add another five in there pre Lus. 00:00:35.190 --> 00:00:38.730 Kevin: Uh, what a great couple of episodes of Star Trek, Rob. 00:00:39.005 --> 00:00:40.385 Rob: Yes, yes, they are. 00:00:40.385 --> 00:00:44.870 With some lovely little, um, uh, cameos from the past, from actors who are 00:00:44.885 --> 00:00:50.255 still kicking it along in the twilight of their lives, um, coming back, 00:00:50.260 --> 00:00:53.435 which was a, a, a lovely reveal, um, 00:00:53.625 --> 00:00:58.770 Kevin: continuing, uh, visitation of Okona in the, the first episode 00:00:58.775 --> 00:01:00.755 Rob: you were so happy to see come back. 00:01:01.230 --> 00:01:01.830 Kevin: Yeah. 00:01:01.830 --> 00:01:06.300 And, uh, I'm not sure it amounted to much like he showed up only to 00:01:06.300 --> 00:01:11.250 leave them in the lurch in, unless he's gonna, you know, be the cavalry 00:01:11.250 --> 00:01:13.200 unexpected in a later episode. 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:15.720 I feel like he's done a pretty mediocre 00:01:16.185 --> 00:01:19.175 Rob: I don't, I don't feel as if he's gonna do a Luke's, uh, sorry, a 00:01:19.175 --> 00:01:23.585 Han Solo and come down and save Luke just before the end of A New Hope. 00:01:23.645 --> 00:01:24.365 Uh, I believe. 00:01:24.365 --> 00:01:24.605 Yeah. 00:01:25.055 --> 00:01:29.195 Um, and there's been a lot of things hanging over our heads that we've been 00:01:29.945 --> 00:01:34.745 querying about the last couple of weeks have been brought into a bit of focus. 00:01:34.745 --> 00:01:39.242 So we found out about certain characters' pasts, we found out about what 00:01:39.332 --> 00:01:41.642 certain characters are evolving into. 00:01:41.732 --> 00:01:46.472 So it was, um, yeah, a lot, a lot to unpack over, uh, the last two weeks. 00:01:46.902 --> 00:01:47.392 Kevin: Yeah. 00:01:47.397 --> 00:01:47.652 Okay. 00:01:47.652 --> 00:01:50.742 So what stood out for you in Masquerade? 00:01:50.802 --> 00:01:56.352 Uh, I could tell you what stood out to me is just the jaw dropping beauty 00:01:56.382 --> 00:02:01.422 of that pointy thing, sticking out of the cloud cover of the planet. 00:02:01.452 --> 00:02:05.802 That shot, you know how I have nerded out on the shot of the 00:02:05.807 --> 00:02:10.332 tiny Enterprise flying towards the behemoth that is the star base? 00:02:10.482 --> 00:02:14.352 It felt like that all over again in CG beauty. 00:02:14.412 --> 00:02:15.342 Uh, it took my breath 00:02:15.512 --> 00:02:19.832 Rob: Look, you have been, uh, harping on, in the most, uh, positive of ways 00:02:20.042 --> 00:02:26.037 of, uh, the multiple, um, Uh, animated and, you know, computer rendered, uh, 00:02:26.067 --> 00:02:31.137 vistas and landscape images that we do get of star fields or, uh, just 00:02:31.137 --> 00:02:32.547 above planets and stuff like that. 00:02:32.552 --> 00:02:34.977 And this, uh, episode carried it on as well. 00:02:35.007 --> 00:02:38.997 Well, the big reveal and the, the big reveal of this week's episode was we 00:02:38.997 --> 00:02:41.167 finally found the backstory of Dal. 00:02:41.187 --> 00:02:44.487 We found out more about his, uh, where he comes from, and 00:02:44.487 --> 00:02:46.707 that was a huge, uh, revelation. 00:02:47.317 --> 00:02:53.467 Kevin: The exact phrase was the handiwork of the proteges of Dr. 00:02:53.467 --> 00:02:54.957 Arik Soong. 00:02:55.387 --> 00:02:55.777 Okay. 00:02:55.897 --> 00:03:00.697 So he's an augment of, of human plus 26 species. 00:03:01.227 --> 00:03:06.727 Arik Soong, I believe, is the, uh, incarnation of Brent Spinner that we 00:03:06.732 --> 00:03:09.247 got to meet in Star Trek: Enterprise. 00:03:09.417 --> 00:03:09.927 Rob: Yes. 00:03:10.277 --> 00:03:13.157 Kevin: Known for, uh, starting the augment stuff. 00:03:13.363 --> 00:03:14.623 What do you make of this? 00:03:14.623 --> 00:03:17.383 Is this satisfying for Dal's origin for you, Rob? 00:03:17.388 --> 00:03:19.453 He's obviously all torn up about it. 00:03:19.518 --> 00:03:22.818 Rob: Yeah, it's interesting when it comes to sort of like representation 00:03:22.823 --> 00:03:27.138 within, uh, pop culture or in storytelling and stuff like that. 00:03:27.528 --> 00:03:31.938 I'm always drawn to, uh, what recent events that have happened 00:03:31.968 --> 00:03:34.818 in Doctor who with the Jodi Whitaker, Chris Chibnall era. 00:03:34.968 --> 00:03:39.918 And they introduced this new element of canon that had never been seen before, 00:03:40.038 --> 00:03:43.308 and it was a massive, controversial move. 00:03:43.338 --> 00:03:46.715 However, there was a, a, a viewership, a population of 00:03:46.715 --> 00:03:48.245 the viewership who come from. 00:03:48.665 --> 00:03:51.875 Uh, orphan backgrounds who are orphans, and they felt that they were 00:03:51.875 --> 00:03:53.555 seen for the first time in the show. 00:03:53.885 --> 00:04:01.205 So I'm, I'm open up to this idea of going, you know, seeing, uh, this character who 00:04:01.235 --> 00:04:05.220 has no family, who has no past, and that there are members of, of the viewing 00:04:05.220 --> 00:04:12.480 audience who go, I can relate to that, um, that storyline of not having a background, 00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:16.230 not having a past, not having something to not having a family to tie to. 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:18.480 So it's the families that they make along the way. 00:04:19.015 --> 00:04:19.555 Kevin: Hmm. 00:04:19.555 --> 00:04:20.802 A genetic orphan 00:04:20.847 --> 00:04:21.897 Rob: Yeah, yeah. 00:04:22.217 --> 00:04:27.107 With all that sci-fi, higgledy piggledy and stuff that we just love, but at 00:04:27.107 --> 00:04:29.087 the root of it, it's, it's an orphan. 00:04:29.237 --> 00:04:32.727 Um, and the family they have made, and that's why they're so, you know, Dal's 00:04:32.747 --> 00:04:37.018 so passionate about, uh, saving his crew and, and keeping his crew together. 00:04:37.018 --> 00:04:40.105 And that's why he gets so jealous easily and all that type of stuff. 00:04:40.105 --> 00:04:43.555 But the instinct in, in me at first went, oh, that's a little bit of a cop out. 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:45.715 But the more I watched it and the more I thought about it, it 00:04:45.715 --> 00:04:49.495 was a good representation for, you know, not traditional forms 00:04:49.495 --> 00:04:51.475 of family or even heritage. 00:04:52.190 --> 00:04:58.130 Kevin: As far as canon connections go, the handiwork of the proteges of Dr. 00:04:58.130 --> 00:05:02.390 Arik Soong is, is pretty darn tenuous if you ask me. 00:05:02.460 --> 00:05:07.910 Arik Soong existed in Star Trek Enterprise, which is pre the original 00:05:07.910 --> 00:05:16.340 series, so 23rd century, and this series is set post Voyager, so late 24th century. 00:05:16.700 --> 00:05:21.140 So this is like a hundred years removed from that character, would 00:05:21.140 --> 00:05:24.830 they still be referring to the, these people who are making augments 00:05:24.830 --> 00:05:27.390 as the proteges of Arik Soong? 00:05:27.410 --> 00:05:28.070 I don't know. 00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:34.190 I am, I'm half suspecting they are somehow going to, uh, show us an animated Brent 00:05:34.190 --> 00:05:36.680 Spiner at some point in the series. 00:05:36.925 --> 00:05:37.495 Rob: Why not? 00:05:37.705 --> 00:05:39.925 Look, if you animate Ronny Cox, 00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:40.565 Kevin: That's 00:05:40.715 --> 00:05:42.725 Rob: You animate, uh, Bill Campbell. 00:05:43.385 --> 00:05:44.795 Anyone could be animated. 00:05:45.165 --> 00:05:45.825 Kevin: can be next. 00:05:45.830 --> 00:05:46.005 Yeah. 00:05:46.005 --> 00:05:49.815 And they are very good at cramming in Brent Spinner anywhere they can 00:05:49.955 --> 00:05:53.115 Rob: Look, you know, from the actor who protests too much about, oh, 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:54.735 you know, it's just a role I play. 00:05:54.975 --> 00:05:55.965 Um, yep. 00:05:55.995 --> 00:05:59.025 He tries to get away and they keep on dragging him back in. 00:05:59.875 --> 00:06:00.535 Kevin: Yeah. 00:06:00.805 --> 00:06:07.315 I, I really liked this fun kind of, uh, caper on the planet below where it's a 00:06:07.315 --> 00:06:12.595 bit of, a you know, no Federation zone being in the Neutral Zone as it is. 00:06:13.045 --> 00:06:19.675 And, uh, I really liked the, the way they walk to that thin line 00:06:19.675 --> 00:06:22.135 where you can see Dal growing. 00:06:22.135 --> 00:06:28.517 Like he, he knew to follow Janeway's advice, and the reason he failed 00:06:28.517 --> 00:06:33.137 to follow Janeway's advice was not because he's cocky or naive, 00:06:33.617 --> 00:06:34.967 it's because he's insecure. 00:06:35.147 --> 00:06:39.077 Like it was, it was revealing a fatal flaw in the character and, and that 00:06:39.077 --> 00:06:40.947 is really satisfying to see, I think. 00:06:41.002 --> 00:06:43.882 Rob: and it's something they've been pushing a lot since they've 00:06:43.942 --> 00:06:47.962 encountered Federation is that, and Janeway has been saying it a lot, 00:06:47.962 --> 00:06:49.552 real Janeway and a hologram Janeway. 00:06:50.272 --> 00:06:51.322 They're just kids. 00:06:51.622 --> 00:06:55.792 They are literally kids controlling this powerful machine. 00:06:56.092 --> 00:06:59.872 And so, and Dal's making childish mistakes and kid mistakes. 00:06:59.872 --> 00:07:06.372 And he's getting easily manipulated by jealousy, um, and uh, and self-doubt 00:07:06.462 --> 00:07:10.872 and, um, insecurity, all that type of stuff, which is the us as 00:07:10.872 --> 00:07:12.372 fans need to go, oh, that's right. 00:07:12.372 --> 00:07:13.482 This is the kids show. 00:07:14.022 --> 00:07:15.042 Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:07:15.042 --> 00:07:16.482 So kids going, yeah, that's fair enough. 00:07:16.482 --> 00:07:17.772 These are important issues. 00:07:18.012 --> 00:07:22.752 And me as a 44 year old going, oh, oh, I thought I'd grown out of that. 00:07:23.082 --> 00:07:24.432 Oh God, 00:07:24.652 --> 00:07:25.042 Kevin: Yep. 00:07:25.762 --> 00:07:31.085 Uh, watching Dal kind of mutate in real time was a lot of a, that that 00:07:31.085 --> 00:07:34.265 was a good gag for the show and I was happy to go along with it. 00:07:34.325 --> 00:07:38.525 Um, speaking of Janeway's advice, and speaking of this being a kids show, 00:07:38.645 --> 00:07:44.472 I have a grammar bone to pick with this which is Janeway's advice or 00:07:44.472 --> 00:07:49.302 Hologram Janeway's advice is if it's too good to be true, it probably is. 00:07:49.572 --> 00:07:51.312 Which is not the saying. 00:07:51.735 --> 00:07:53.595 That literally means it is true. 00:07:54.572 --> 00:07:59.722 What she meant to say is if it sounds too good to be true, it probably 00:07:59.812 --> 00:08:01.132 Rob: It's a hologram glitch. 00:08:01.132 --> 00:08:01.342 It's a 00:08:01.727 --> 00:08:06.407 Kevin: Yeah, it is a hologram glitch, I reckon, for no other reason they establish 00:08:06.407 --> 00:08:11.657 at the start of this episode that Hologram Janeway is on the fritz, and the only 00:08:11.867 --> 00:08:16.667 evidence we have of this is a brief glitch immediately after Jankom Pog says that. 00:08:17.057 --> 00:08:18.977 And then as far as I can tell, she's fine. 00:08:18.977 --> 00:08:20.627 Apart from that, but this grammar 00:08:21.562 --> 00:08:24.132 Rob: The camera's not on her, she's glitching up a storm 00:08:25.543 --> 00:08:30.073 Kevin: I had a similar like grammar quibble with the next episode, and I 00:08:30.078 --> 00:08:35.240 don't like, I don't know, I feel like it's just a quality control thing There 00:08:35.245 --> 00:08:40.040 is a sense that these episodes of new Star Trek are coming together pretty 00:08:40.040 --> 00:08:42.470 fast and pretty hot at times there. 00:08:42.860 --> 00:08:47.362 It takes me back to, there's an early episode of Discovery where on the 00:08:47.362 --> 00:08:50.422 view screen of the bridge that we are seeing from the other side, so we're 00:08:50.422 --> 00:08:54.562 seeing the text in and we're looking through the view screen at the bridge 00:08:54.562 --> 00:08:58.762 crew, and the bridge says something, it says something like, standby or 00:08:58.762 --> 00:09:00.232 red alert or something like that. 00:09:00.292 --> 00:09:03.202 And two of the letters are, are, are in the wrong order. 00:09:03.207 --> 00:09:04.222 So it's misspelled. 00:09:04.372 --> 00:09:09.202 And just the idea that there would be a typo on like the largest text on 00:09:09.202 --> 00:09:13.942 screen audience is meant to be paying attention to and reading in reverse. 00:09:14.032 --> 00:09:17.752 Uh, it, it seems like a very unfortunate mistake and I'm seeing 00:09:17.752 --> 00:09:21.022 a lot of those kind of little unfortunate mistakes in Star Trek these 00:09:21.177 --> 00:09:23.937 Rob: They're trying to pack out the content really quickly and 00:09:23.937 --> 00:09:26.247 they're cutting some corners. 00:09:26.392 --> 00:09:27.022 Kevin: Yeah. 00:09:27.202 --> 00:09:30.472 But if this is the biggest quibble I have with an episode of Star Trek, 00:09:30.477 --> 00:09:32.062 it's a pretty darn good episode. 00:09:32.357 --> 00:09:32.847 Rob: Yeah. 00:09:33.087 --> 00:09:33.357 Yeah. 00:09:33.357 --> 00:09:35.547 It was another episode of reveals. 00:09:35.547 --> 00:09:39.567 We found out that our, um, Trill officer was 00:09:39.682 --> 00:09:40.342 Kevin: Yeah. 00:09:40.797 --> 00:09:43.857 Rob: um, one of, uh, yes. 00:09:43.887 --> 00:09:45.117 In disguise. 00:09:45.577 --> 00:09:46.297 Kevin: Yeah. 00:09:46.297 --> 00:09:50.067 She, uh, we find out in the next episode is the Vindicator. 00:09:50.087 --> 00:09:55.787 But what I loved the most about that reveal, Rob, was that her accent 00:09:55.792 --> 00:10:00.167 changed from American to British when she went from good to evil. 00:10:00.227 --> 00:10:04.787 Uh, just love the leaning into the, the stereotype there of, 00:10:04.787 --> 00:10:09.437 oh, now that I'm clearly evil, I will speak in my evil accent. 00:10:10.207 --> 00:10:11.197 Rob: Yes, yes. 00:10:11.377 --> 00:10:15.037 There are two different types of colonizers, American hero colonizers 00:10:15.217 --> 00:10:18.997 and British evil colonizers get, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:10:19.027 --> 00:10:20.047 Just remember that. 00:10:20.137 --> 00:10:20.797 Okay. 00:10:21.127 --> 00:10:24.787 British bad colonizers, American colonizers we're good. 00:10:25.427 --> 00:10:25.847 Kevin: Yes. 00:10:26.087 --> 00:10:26.447 Yes. 00:10:27.397 --> 00:10:30.427 Rob: Um, but yes, it was a, exciting episode as well because we found out 00:10:30.427 --> 00:10:36.610 another, another big reveal, Murf is, developing as well and is, not just, 00:10:36.610 --> 00:10:39.460 in humanoid form or well bi form. 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:44.890 Uh, they can, you know, uh, expand their body, move in, you know, they, 00:10:44.895 --> 00:10:47.290 they know kung fu to quote, apparently. 00:10:47.680 --> 00:10:52.060 Um, and so, uh, Murf's potential is growing as well. 00:10:52.090 --> 00:10:56.980 Cuz I was a bit, as about last time, yeah, I was a little bit disappointed when we 00:10:57.077 --> 00:11:00.947 first saw Murf come out of the cocoon and I went, all right, so it's just the 00:11:01.277 --> 00:11:06.077 same form now with legs, um, and hitting and conveniently hitting the, you know, 00:11:06.167 --> 00:11:07.967 the torpedo button when it needed to. 00:11:08.267 --> 00:11:12.617 But now to see, okay, Murf is growing and developing and, and it is, 00:11:12.677 --> 00:11:14.567 uh, becoming more what they were. 00:11:14.687 --> 00:11:16.367 Yeah, ish. 00:11:16.452 --> 00:11:20.082 Kevin: At this, at the start when Murf was like just waving the phases around 00:11:20.082 --> 00:11:23.082 randomly, and, and I was like, oh, sigh. 00:11:23.802 --> 00:11:28.812 And the, the burp fart at the end of the second episode here. 00:11:28.812 --> 00:11:33.192 Also, like it is clear he's not, Murf is not gonna grow that much. 00:11:33.392 --> 00:11:34.562 Rob: No, no, no, no. 00:11:34.562 --> 00:11:39.872 The whole, uh, uh, next episode ends on a fart joke or burp which is 00:11:40.177 --> 00:11:40.787 Kevin: Mm-hmm. 00:11:41.810 --> 00:11:44.147 Uh, should we move into the second episode? 00:11:44.162 --> 00:11:44.582 Rob: Yes. 00:11:44.582 --> 00:11:50.602 Episode 16 Preludes, which is the inspiration for our, uh, grander topic 00:11:50.602 --> 00:11:54.022 this week, where we just sit around and go, well while we're waiting for 00:11:54.022 --> 00:11:57.502 this thing to be done, let's find out a little bit more about each other. 00:11:57.977 --> 00:11:59.377 Kevin: Flashback appalooza. 00:12:04.160 --> 00:12:08.247 It just stood out to me in this second episode that the Romulan warbirds 00:12:08.277 --> 00:12:09.957 kind of gave up pretty easily. 00:12:10.857 --> 00:12:15.897 One group of Tal Shiar got beat on the space elevator, and apparently 00:12:15.897 --> 00:12:16.917 the Romulans just gave up. 00:12:16.947 --> 00:12:17.187 They, 00:12:17.327 --> 00:12:17.627 Rob: Yeah. 00:12:17.787 --> 00:12:22.847 One thing I, I forgot to mention about, um, the episode, uh, Masquerade is like 00:12:22.847 --> 00:12:27.857 you were talking about, that, that hive of activity within the neutral Cuz normally 00:12:27.862 --> 00:12:31.937 I get this impression that the neutral zone is select this barren wasteland, but 00:12:31.937 --> 00:12:37.727 there's this thriving black market type of, you know, society there surviving 00:12:37.727 --> 00:12:42.527 literally on the edge of space is, uh, fascinating just to see a taste of it. 00:12:42.730 --> 00:12:48.610 Kevin: Yeah, it reminds me of, uh, the storylines around, uh, the Maquis 00:12:48.660 --> 00:12:54.690 where like, planets were changing hands as, as borders were shifted by 00:12:54.690 --> 00:12:57.780 geopolitical forces around the galaxy. 00:12:57.780 --> 00:13:02.820 And yeah, it gave that same sense of up an in between place that doesn't exist 00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:05.670 on any map of or the Romulan empire. 00:13:05.915 --> 00:13:10.175 Rob: And I like seeing that little element of, uh, of the Star Trek universe. 00:13:10.180 --> 00:13:16.055 It expands it out from just, uh, you know, red, amber, and bluish uniforms. 00:13:16.470 --> 00:13:17.940 Kevin: Yeah, the cracks in between. 00:13:17.945 --> 00:13:18.360 It, it was 00:13:18.725 --> 00:13:19.355 Rob: Yeah. 00:13:19.415 --> 00:13:24.022 So, yes, we got to, um, as they were trying to repair things to move on, uh, 00:13:24.052 --> 00:13:28.612 they sat around and we found out the backstory of not only our heroes, but we 00:13:28.617 --> 00:13:30.818 also got the backstory of, The Diviner. 00:13:30.818 --> 00:13:36.753 And we got a more clearer view of his, journey into our timeline and also, 00:13:36.813 --> 00:13:40.953 uh, the Starfleet influence that caused the destruction of his society. 00:13:41.095 --> 00:13:44.933 Kevin: I really liked how cleverly the backstory for The Diviner was 00:13:44.963 --> 00:13:48.533 thrown in there in amongst the backstories of our other, like 00:13:48.533 --> 00:13:52.133 protagonist very deft in that way. 00:13:52.643 --> 00:13:58.693 Um, that said the actual story of the Vau N'Akat and their launching a hundred star 00:13:58.693 --> 00:14:05.473 ships from their shattered world, uh, and each of them with a Drednok on board. 00:14:05.503 --> 00:14:09.673 I'm not sure how shattered this world actually is have a hundred starships to 00:14:10.093 --> 00:14:13.213 send in, on a, on a hope and a prayer. 00:14:13.723 --> 00:14:18.633 Uh, but, the, the storyline is one that I am finding less satisfying 00:14:18.633 --> 00:14:20.343 the more we find out about it. 00:14:20.748 --> 00:14:21.238 Rob: Sure. 00:14:21.558 --> 00:14:25.548 Kevin: I don't know why Chakotay, for example, stuck in the future, his move 00:14:25.548 --> 00:14:30.858 would be to send the ship back into the past knowing it was armed with 00:14:30.888 --> 00:14:34.218 a, uh, weapon to destroy Starfleet. 00:14:34.788 --> 00:14:39.108 If, if you got control of the ship, you know, fly it somewhere like a 00:14:39.458 --> 00:14:42.938 Rob: Look, it's Bri, it's bringing up many issues about how Chakotay was as 00:14:42.938 --> 00:14:47.228 the first in command of the Voyager anyway, so I mean, he may do a couple 00:14:47.228 --> 00:14:49.718 of, uh, hairy decisions in his time in 00:14:49.908 --> 00:14:51.288 Kevin: Oh, granted, okay. 00:14:51.288 --> 00:14:51.768 Yes. 00:14:51.828 --> 00:14:55.128 This is a story about Chakotay's poor judgment, 00:14:55.538 --> 00:14:55.748 Rob: look. 00:14:55.958 --> 00:14:59.318 Well, that I, I could be just manufacturing that myself. 00:15:00.768 --> 00:15:05.358 Kevin: I really wanna know more about Chakotay and his crew like 00:15:05.358 --> 00:15:09.408 that, that first Officer Bird thing that he was holding on 00:15:09.408 --> 00:15:11.298 his I wanna know more about that 00:15:11.558 --> 00:15:13.568 Rob: I believe that's actually their official name. 00:15:13.598 --> 00:15:13.898 Yeah. 00:15:14.208 --> 00:15:14.568 Kevin: Yes. 00:15:14.568 --> 00:15:15.108 The bird 00:15:15.398 --> 00:15:16.568 Rob: first, officer Bird. 00:15:17.463 --> 00:15:19.983 Kevin: I wanna know if it's the same species as Dr. 00:15:19.983 --> 00:15:20.823 Migleemo, for 00:15:20.873 --> 00:15:21.563 Rob: hope so. 00:15:21.623 --> 00:15:23.033 I really hope so. 00:15:23.483 --> 00:15:24.233 I want, yeah. 00:15:24.263 --> 00:15:27.683 Well, their Meema is gonna be very, very, you know, worried about 00:15:27.683 --> 00:15:30.983 them, so we have to Meema as well. 00:15:31.046 --> 00:15:35.996 Kevin: Again, in this episode, a few like un unpolished turns of phrase, 00:15:36.026 --> 00:15:40.556 uh, in The Diviner story, one of the things that I was mentioned is 00:15:40.876 --> 00:15:44.336 Starfleet's lies of bold new worlds. 00:15:44.486 --> 00:15:47.906 I don't know what a bold world is. 00:15:48.373 --> 00:15:51.973 It seems like an awkward combination of to boldly go and 00:15:51.993 --> 00:15:52.973 Rob: And strange new. 00:15:53.023 --> 00:15:54.853 Kevin: but it doesn't actually make sense. 00:15:57.823 --> 00:16:00.853 So, yeah, just a little bit of, you know, one more copywriting 00:16:00.853 --> 00:16:02.563 pass over the script, maybe. 00:16:03.213 --> 00:16:03.933 Rob: Yes. 00:16:04.081 --> 00:16:07.861 Kevin: The other one that stood out to me was, um, so maybe Gwyn 00:16:07.861 --> 00:16:12.991 has me beat, says Dal, and then Zero says, I wouldn't be so sure. 00:16:13.201 --> 00:16:15.601 We each have things in our past we wish to forget. 00:16:16.231 --> 00:16:18.211 One sentence doesn't follow from the other. 00:16:18.216 --> 00:16:21.301 I feel like there were some lines cut from the script here and then what's 00:16:21.301 --> 00:16:23.311 left doesn't actually hold together. 00:16:23.826 --> 00:16:26.916 Rob: Well, it's interesting because there were so many writers on this one. 00:16:26.916 --> 00:16:30.696 I was looking over the, writer's list, and maybe like a writer was 00:16:30.696 --> 00:16:33.156 writing each character's backstory and 00:16:33.751 --> 00:16:34.831 Kevin: totally sense. 00:16:35.121 --> 00:16:37.191 For the rest of these vignettes. 00:16:37.221 --> 00:16:41.481 I just love that they kind of gave us all the backstory at once. 00:16:41.541 --> 00:16:44.961 I feel like they could have played cagey with these characters for 00:16:45.201 --> 00:16:48.351 like, they could have strung out these mysteries for much longer. 00:16:48.831 --> 00:16:54.741 Um, but kind of backing up the dump truck of backstory to our doorstep here today, 00:16:54.741 --> 00:16:58.731 and just like giving it all to us in one episode, it was really satisfying. 00:16:58.941 --> 00:17:04.791 Uh, and I feel like now we can springboard off this more confidently into stories 00:17:04.851 --> 00:17:06.681 knowing who our characters are. 00:17:07.316 --> 00:17:07.796 Rob: Exactly. 00:17:07.796 --> 00:17:11.216 And there's still elements of their past that we haven't got. 00:17:11.216 --> 00:17:16.089 Like we've only got, uh, Rok up to a certain point, and even Jankom as well. 00:17:16.089 --> 00:17:20.389 And so it's how they got captured as opposed to their entire life story. 00:17:20.389 --> 00:17:23.209 So it's a good, you know, good catch up for us to go, right, 00:17:23.289 --> 00:17:27.909 we know a little bit more that shapes them who they are, um, and 00:17:28.034 --> 00:17:34.494 Kevin: interesting seeing the Kazon become the kidnappers of the Delta Quadrant 00:17:34.944 --> 00:17:40.764 suppose when we first meet the Kazon, they are kidnapping Kes, and so what we are 00:17:40.764 --> 00:17:42.654 learning is this is a pattern for them. 00:17:43.184 --> 00:17:45.854 Rob: This is, this is a part of their culture, apparently. 00:17:46.104 --> 00:17:46.374 Kevin: Yeah. 00:17:46.754 --> 00:17:49.604 Rob: we need we need, to acknowledge and accept…? 00:17:49.664 --> 00:17:50.624 No, no, no, no, no. 00:17:50.804 --> 00:17:53.834 Kevin: It strikes me as a strange way to make money. 00:17:53.954 --> 00:17:57.614 We will capture, one at a time, random stragglers around the 00:17:57.614 --> 00:18:01.304 galaxy and sell them as slaves. 00:18:01.334 --> 00:18:06.691 It's a bit I'm not sure what the return on investment is on a custom box that 00:18:06.691 --> 00:18:11.516 makes whale sounds on an asteroid in order to capture one Medusan, if you're 00:18:11.701 --> 00:18:15.061 Rob: look, if you're lucky, look, the, um, the, the Kazon 00:18:15.081 --> 00:18:17.421 are about quality, not quantity. 00:18:17.776 --> 00:18:18.256 Kevin: That's right, 00:18:18.741 --> 00:18:22.806 Rob: they have going for pure kidnapping quality right here. 00:18:22.896 --> 00:18:28.716 So, um, yeah, I, some of the bridging lines from one flashback to the next 00:18:28.716 --> 00:18:33.434 was quite, clunky and probably needed a go over one or two more times. 00:18:33.434 --> 00:18:36.374 Cause it was very much a case so how about you? 00:18:36.584 --> 00:18:38.084 Who next? 00:18:38.244 --> 00:18:38.514 Kevin: Yeah. 00:18:38.724 --> 00:18:40.374 I wanna hear your story. 00:18:40.914 --> 00:18:45.461 And yeah, I don't know how I feel about Zero just kind of deciding, because they 00:18:45.461 --> 00:18:48.551 care, they can read everyone's minds. 00:18:48.971 --> 00:18:51.456 That justification didn't quite hold up to me. 00:18:51.596 --> 00:18:56.276 Rob: That's, that's a bit of a mechanical wave of all this type of moral ambiguity. 00:18:56.736 --> 00:19:01.676 Um, because yeah, so many people have used the word care as an excuse 00:19:01.676 --> 00:19:04.316 and that doesn't hold much water. 00:19:04.713 --> 00:19:06.943 Kevin: Rok-Tahk's story I really liked. 00:19:07.583 --> 00:19:14.823 This, uh, story of Rok-Tahk kind of being the dancing bear in a ring match 00:19:14.828 --> 00:19:18.446 with the Hero and the fact that they didn't speak each other's language. 00:19:18.446 --> 00:19:24.513 And so the story is very much wordlessly, except for the narration by Rok-Tahk. 00:19:24.528 --> 00:19:27.073 And it's, um, it's a charming little story. 00:19:27.073 --> 00:19:32.053 You can read a lot of the subtleties of the story on the faces of the characters, 00:19:32.053 --> 00:19:33.943 and it's really enjoyable for that reason. 00:19:34.038 --> 00:19:37.248 Rob: And that Hero is still out there somewhere, you 00:19:37.753 --> 00:19:40.963 Kevin: looking, looking like he feels real guilty about what 00:19:40.968 --> 00:19:43.753 happened to He may, he may come back. 00:19:43.968 --> 00:19:45.288 Rob: And I'd be okay with that. 00:19:45.288 --> 00:19:47.418 It's not a case of going, milking this one, 00:19:47.769 --> 00:19:50.879 Kevin: There's, yeah rough edges is showing all over this episode. 00:19:50.879 --> 00:19:57.449 Like there's a, a line where, uh, Rok says after the comedy routine, I didn't get 00:19:57.449 --> 00:20:00.509 my bowl full of Nutri-goop, only half. 00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:04.319 But what is shown in the visuals just a tiny droplet and an empty 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:05.609 bowl, and it's just like, ooh. 00:20:05.639 --> 00:20:07.769 The, the words in the visuals don't line up there. 00:20:07.769 --> 00:20:11.159 That strikes me as something that could only happen if you're in a 00:20:11.404 --> 00:20:12.064 Rob: Yes. 00:20:12.094 --> 00:20:12.844 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:20:12.904 --> 00:20:14.134 And, um, that's the thing. 00:20:14.134 --> 00:20:19.774 So many chefs in this episode and, and, and know they really needed someone 00:20:19.774 --> 00:20:24.424 in charge, sort of like to have a bit clearer, uh, go through it one more time. 00:20:24.628 --> 00:20:29.638 It was funny and, and cute in some ways, but, uh, I was going, that's the reason 00:20:29.638 --> 00:20:32.118 why Jankom Pog keeps on saying Jankom Pog? 00:20:32.488 --> 00:20:39.748 He's, he's been psychologically worn down to the of, you know, he's emotionally 00:20:39.748 --> 00:20:44.578 crippled and psychologically damaged forever because of this situation. 00:20:45.098 --> 00:20:48.338 Kevin: It is a Jason Mantzoukas story, if ever there was. 00:20:48.548 --> 00:20:55.508 I feel like this is again and again, Jason Mantzoukas is cast to be, um, the, 00:20:55.598 --> 00:20:59.114 the broken brain character of the series. 00:20:59.444 --> 00:21:05.954 Um, his, his character in the Good very much echoes into Jankom Pog 00:21:05.954 --> 00:21:08.624 for me, where I was like, ah, okay. 00:21:08.629 --> 00:21:13.004 He says, Jankom Pog not because that's how he was taught to speak or how he 00:21:13.004 --> 00:21:14.934 is brought up or how Tellarites speak. 00:21:14.934 --> 00:21:22.394 He says it because a a droid drove him batty on, on a ship for, for a period of 00:21:23.174 --> 00:21:24.644 Uh, and I could get on board with it. 00:21:24.714 --> 00:21:26.634 Rob: I did like the subtle shift of his voice. 00:21:26.634 --> 00:21:31.434 He did really well, like the slightly younger, uh, and a 00:21:31.434 --> 00:21:33.474 bit more wide-eyed Jankom Pog. 00:21:33.479 --> 00:21:38.394 And then that wore him down and so I, I just picked it up the second time 00:21:38.394 --> 00:21:41.724 I watched him, and that's a really subtle change, Mantzoukas, so, uh, 00:21:42.274 --> 00:21:43.474 Kevin: Yeah, I liked it too. 00:21:43.994 --> 00:21:47.534 The idea that the Tellarites before they became part of the Federation, they 00:21:47.534 --> 00:21:52.574 would send their orphans out on deep space missions like, that's a tantalizing 00:21:52.574 --> 00:21:58.394 detail of a, uh, a species that has not really been fleshed out in Star 00:21:58.394 --> 00:22:00.584 Trek lore other than they are grumpy. 00:22:01.574 --> 00:22:03.974 So I'm really like, I'm enjoying that. 00:22:03.974 --> 00:22:08.054 I think it's, it's kind of like cruel and, and terrifying, but 00:22:08.114 --> 00:22:09.764 it's an interesting detail. 00:22:10.069 --> 00:22:10.609 Rob: Exactly. 00:22:10.609 --> 00:22:14.869 Yeah, it's great to have, you know, the, this is when you're doing it right, it's 00:22:14.874 --> 00:22:19.314 like, it's the big thing that's going on in the Star Wars universe as well, like 00:22:19.314 --> 00:22:22.064 with the, the, uh, creation of, Andor. 00:22:22.664 --> 00:22:26.454 Everyone's Finally, this is what, uh, Star Wars can be. 00:22:26.454 --> 00:22:31.729 It can be stories told by different type of voices and different levels of 00:22:32.089 --> 00:22:34.189 perception and, and that type of stuff. 00:22:34.239 --> 00:22:37.959 So what we've seen in these last couple of episodes of Prodigy is completely 00:22:37.959 --> 00:22:41.229 different to what, like we've gone through, you know, the tail end of 00:22:41.229 --> 00:22:43.929 one, but three seasons of Star Trek. 00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:48.579 In, you know, the course of however many months we've been doing this just in one 00:22:48.579 --> 00:22:54.649 year, and what we got from Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks and now Prodigy. 00:22:54.709 --> 00:22:58.099 Completely different, but all, very much within that universe. 00:22:58.099 --> 00:23:02.149 And expanding characters that we've seen before, species that we have 00:23:02.149 --> 00:23:03.919 seen before, giving them more depth. 00:23:03.949 --> 00:23:08.509 It's, it's a very exciting time to see that world building happen and just 00:23:08.514 --> 00:23:12.739 have tantalizing little, uh, reveal of this brutal, harsh element of a 00:23:12.744 --> 00:23:16.519 character and a, a species that we've only seen as, oh, they're grumpy. 00:23:17.179 --> 00:23:19.009 Um, I love that type of stuff. 00:23:19.009 --> 00:23:19.579 I love that. 00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:26.479 Taking that time to, uh, really, you know, dive into all those little details. 00:23:27.029 --> 00:23:27.509 Kevin: Yeah. 00:23:27.989 --> 00:23:32.819 Uh, Zero's story had me thinking of you just cuz that that glowing green 00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:35.079 box, that was the trap for Zero. 00:23:35.129 --> 00:23:39.399 Uh, and it was, it was very distinctly making whale song. 00:23:39.989 --> 00:23:44.339 And I thought, is this gonna be the Star Trek IV, uh, whale 00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:46.199 probe tie-in that Rob has 00:23:46.294 --> 00:23:49.084 Rob: I would love, I want to find out what happened to Dr. 00:23:49.084 --> 00:23:50.104 Gillian, you know. 00:23:50.914 --> 00:23:51.934 Where the hell is she? 00:23:51.934 --> 00:23:53.404 She was on a science vessel. 00:23:53.464 --> 00:23:55.894 You know, I wanna see her around the galaxy. 00:23:56.489 --> 00:23:56.789 Kevin: That's right. 00:23:57.314 --> 00:23:57.794 Rob: Bring Dr. 00:23:57.794 --> 00:23:58.544 Gillian back. 00:23:58.544 --> 00:24:01.004 Come on, you bring back Ronny Cox. 00:24:01.184 --> 00:24:01.904 Bring back. 00:24:01.964 --> 00:24:05.529 Kevin: All, in all seriousness, I felt like Zero's vignette was 00:24:05.529 --> 00:24:07.059 the disappointing one for me. 00:24:07.059 --> 00:24:13.119 Like it was beautiful and maybe, maybe it was the animator interns that were 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.319 let loose on that one, but I feel like there was not a lot of story there. 00:24:17.414 --> 00:24:18.674 Rob: It was very short, wasn't it? 00:24:18.679 --> 00:24:18.914 It was 00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:20.199 Kevin: short. 00:24:20.294 --> 00:24:22.427 Rob: Um, they go, I had freedom. 00:24:22.427 --> 00:24:23.717 All I can remember is freedom. 00:24:23.717 --> 00:24:25.127 And it was a short little thing. 00:24:25.127 --> 00:24:27.587 We just saw one thing being eaten by another thing, and 00:24:27.587 --> 00:24:29.327 then a green box with Kazons. 00:24:29.327 --> 00:24:30.762 Kevin: Medusans have ships. 00:24:30.792 --> 00:24:33.882 Show me that, like that ship that they landed on. 00:24:33.882 --> 00:24:37.402 I'm like, what is a ship for Medusans? 00:24:37.422 --> 00:24:42.372 They obviously don't need it to protect them from space, so it's just to get 00:24:42.372 --> 00:24:48.132 around quickly and, and how would you design a ship for gaseous cloud I want 00:24:48.767 --> 00:24:50.117 Rob: and the movement of them as well. 00:24:50.117 --> 00:24:53.567 They're very much like just individual globs floating around. 00:24:53.777 --> 00:24:57.917 Like, I'd like to see more of this, you know, maybe a possible choreography 00:24:57.917 --> 00:25:00.497 or a, a blending or how that works. 00:25:00.497 --> 00:25:04.217 It's just this case of, it was the barest minimum that they could do. 00:25:04.767 --> 00:25:06.417 In my, in my humble opinion. 00:25:07.192 --> 00:25:07.642 Kevin: Yeah. 00:25:08.422 --> 00:25:11.962 Um, anything else from this episode stand out before we dive into the 00:25:12.252 --> 00:25:13.572 Rob: Massive cliff hanger. 00:25:13.662 --> 00:25:16.632 What's What's gonna happen with, uh, Janeway? 00:25:16.912 --> 00:25:19.012 Kevin: chopped, karate chopped on the shoulder. 00:25:19.192 --> 00:25:19.672 She's out. 00:25:20.082 --> 00:25:20.982 Rob: They knocked her out. 00:25:20.982 --> 00:25:21.642 That's right. 00:25:21.702 --> 00:25:22.002 Yep. 00:25:22.032 --> 00:25:23.082 They Karate chopped her. 00:25:24.852 --> 00:25:27.372 did a karate chop of all the ways they could have knocked her out. 00:25:28.202 --> 00:25:28.952 Kevin: Oh yeah. 00:25:28.957 --> 00:25:30.592 It's so satisfying. 00:25:31.732 --> 00:25:36.262 In so many ways, Star Trek has come so far, yet they are not above 00:25:36.262 --> 00:25:39.352 a good 1960s Saturday morning. 00:25:40.062 --> 00:25:40.552 Yeah. 00:25:40.662 --> 00:25:40.992 Rob: Yeah. 00:25:41.052 --> 00:25:43.812 I always, I always think of, uh, Miss Piggy as well, so. 00:25:44.017 --> 00:25:45.247 Kevin: Uh, it's so good. 00:25:45.352 --> 00:25:50.772 Rob: But yeah, so because of, especially, this week's episode of Prodigy, it got 00:25:50.772 --> 00:25:53.448 us thinking about the good old flashback. 00:25:53.564 --> 00:25:55.364 Kevin: Yes, I should say off the top. 00:25:55.424 --> 00:25:59.264 Um, if you haven't been listening to Subspace Radio, uh, since the 00:25:59.264 --> 00:26:03.584 beginning, if you wanna see more of this kind of stuff discussed, 00:26:03.589 --> 00:26:06.794 you can go back to Subspace Radio episode two, where we talked about 00:26:06.794 --> 00:26:11.204 times that Star Trek literally visited old episodes of Star Trek. 00:26:11.564 --> 00:26:15.674 Uh, and we visited the episode entitled Flashback with, uh, 00:26:15.674 --> 00:26:20.164 Tuvok's past on the Excelsior during the events of Star Trek VI. 00:26:20.714 --> 00:26:24.404 But for this time around, we're gonna take a slightly different angle and, 00:26:24.464 --> 00:26:29.204 and like this week's episode of Prodigy, we're, we're looking at flashbacks that 00:26:29.504 --> 00:26:32.414 reveal the past of one of our some way. 00:26:33.284 --> 00:26:37.484 So I have a few, and I suspect we might agree on one of them. 00:26:37.609 --> 00:26:41.459 Rob: Well, yeah, I've gone back to old Rob, within this series. 00:26:41.459 --> 00:26:45.569 I've just solely focused on Deep Space Nine, and I found I, I'll 00:26:45.569 --> 00:26:49.889 re-watched them today and I just, oh my, these two episodes are 00:26:50.259 --> 00:26:50.979 Kevin: They're good, eh? 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.069 Rob: pure gold, so yes, I'm 00:26:53.139 --> 00:26:54.099 Kevin: I, okay. 00:26:54.219 --> 00:26:56.499 I think I know at least one of the ones you're talking about. 00:26:56.499 --> 00:26:59.259 But let's, let's do this chronologically and I'll get the 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:01.449 TNG episodes out of the way for us. 00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:04.556 Rob: That's what we know, Kevin, you bring the TNG. 00:27:04.896 --> 00:27:05.526 Kevin: I did. 00:27:05.616 --> 00:27:10.116 Uh, I almost brought in an episode of Enterprise this week because in my 00:27:10.116 --> 00:27:16.696 memory, Carbon Creek, the Enterprise episode focusing very much on Jolene 00:27:16.696 --> 00:27:19.939 Blalock's visitation of 1950s Earth. 00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:23.719 To me, in my memory, that was a T'Pol story, but it was 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:25.789 actually T'Pol's grandmother. 00:27:26.419 --> 00:27:28.159 So when I looked at it, I went, Nope. 00:27:28.159 --> 00:27:29.899 That, that's, that's against the rules. 00:27:29.899 --> 00:27:31.489 T'Pol's past. 00:27:31.494 --> 00:27:33.529 It's revealing T'Pol's grandmother's past. 00:27:33.529 --> 00:27:36.469 So it's out, but I'm sure we'll get an excuse to talk 00:27:36.469 --> 00:27:38.089 about Carbon Creek another day. 00:27:38.089 --> 00:27:39.379 An excellent episode of 00:27:39.639 --> 00:27:42.249 Rob: Well, Memory Alpha does do because they're just incredible. 00:27:42.254 --> 00:27:47.139 I typed in flashback episodes and I did see there were, uh, the odd, uh, 00:27:47.139 --> 00:27:52.339 Enterprise one and went, oh, well, uh, shame I haven't watched anything 00:27:52.344 --> 00:27:53.649 more than just the first episode. 00:27:54.139 --> 00:27:54.979 Kevin: Yeah. 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:59.419 Well, my first episode, uh, this time around is from season 00:27:59.419 --> 00:28:03.949 five of Star Trek, The Next Generation episode 12, Violations. 00:28:04.513 --> 00:28:06.729 It's an uncomfortable watch, this episode. 00:28:06.999 --> 00:28:10.024 It is an atypical rape story. 00:28:10.644 --> 00:28:15.274 Um, this is a story of a psychic rape, or the presence of a psychic 00:28:15.704 --> 00:28:18.004 rapist on board the Enterprise. 00:28:18.394 --> 00:28:23.644 It is this species called the Ullians who call themselves archeologists 00:28:23.674 --> 00:28:25.504 of the mind or of memory. 00:28:26.389 --> 00:28:31.999 And they have this, uh, talent where they can help you recover forgotten memories by 00:28:31.999 --> 00:28:36.349 sitting with you and talking you through a half remembered image in your mind. 00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:40.129 Suddenly you can, they can, they can tease that memory back to the 00:28:40.129 --> 00:28:41.899 surface so you can rediscover it. 00:28:41.899 --> 00:28:46.609 And this, this species is going around the galaxy, recovering and 00:28:46.609 --> 00:28:51.469 chronicling, uh, forgotten memories to compile in their library. 00:28:51.469 --> 00:28:55.269 And it's a really interesting idea, except that one of these Ullians 00:28:55.489 --> 00:29:03.539 has a problem where, yeah, well, he gets his kicks, violating people's 00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:07.769 memories, inserting himself into them in a traumatic way, and feeding 00:29:07.769 --> 00:29:12.959 off that psychic trauma or traumatic experience in, in kind of a power trip. 00:29:13.619 --> 00:29:20.279 Um, but, uh, setting aside, you know, it is a good episode, I 00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:23.729 think, if you can get past the fact that it is a story about rape. 00:29:23.729 --> 00:29:27.119 A lot of the behind the scenes stuff is about how the writers were kind of 00:29:27.449 --> 00:29:32.699 excited to find a sci-fi way to tell a story about rape without making it 00:29:32.699 --> 00:29:34.649 literally about the physical act of rape. 00:29:34.649 --> 00:29:39.449 And that's like, in some ways, what Star Trek does best is take an uncomfortable 00:29:39.449 --> 00:29:43.709 subject and make it approachable by, you know, cloaking it in sci-fi. 00:29:43.924 --> 00:29:44.884 Rob: the best sci-fi does. 00:29:44.889 --> 00:29:45.304 Yeah. 00:29:45.824 --> 00:29:47.804 Kevin: And that's what this episode does. 00:29:48.134 --> 00:29:52.884 Uh, but the specific memories that are brought to the surface are these 00:29:52.884 --> 00:29:55.464 glimpses of our characters' pasts. 00:29:55.854 --> 00:30:00.268 And the one that was especially memorable to me is Dr. 00:30:00.273 --> 00:30:05.478 Crusher's memory that the alien recovers, and this is the memory of 00:30:06.098 --> 00:30:09.041 the time her husband Jack Crusher died. 00:30:09.041 --> 00:30:14.861 We have heard through several episodes that Captain Picard delivered the news 00:30:14.861 --> 00:30:22.001 of her death, and, and he has felt guilty or felt like he, he owes her 00:30:22.031 --> 00:30:26.981 and her son, Wesley, any help he can give them for the rest of their lives 00:30:26.981 --> 00:30:28.811 because of this debt that he owes them. 00:30:28.816 --> 00:30:34.571 And we get to actually see Picard walking Crusher to the morgue and, and 00:30:34.571 --> 00:30:36.491 viewing the body of her dead husband. 00:30:36.491 --> 00:30:39.881 And, uh, Picard is made up to look younger. 00:30:39.886 --> 00:30:41.741 He has a little more hair on his head. 00:30:41.741 --> 00:30:46.961 It's like one of the few times we see Picard with hair on And, uh, 00:30:47.021 --> 00:30:51.461 and yeah, again, it is very quickly twisted into something that didn't 00:30:51.461 --> 00:30:53.781 actually happen in the episode. 00:30:53.781 --> 00:30:57.141 But nevertheless, we get to see a glimpse of these younger versions 00:30:57.141 --> 00:31:00.531 of our characters in their past that is very intriguing to me. 00:31:00.631 --> 00:31:06.976 As a lore episode, these glimpses you get in here in Violations 00:31:07.036 --> 00:31:08.566 are, are really intriguing. 00:31:08.566 --> 00:31:12.156 I wish we had seen more of our TNG characters' pasts while the 00:31:12.156 --> 00:31:13.746 actors were young enough to pull it 00:31:13.796 --> 00:31:14.906 Rob: Yeah, very much. 00:31:14.906 --> 00:31:21.146 Um, and there are elements of it in Star Trek V with Sybok using the, those 00:31:21.296 --> 00:31:26.186 painful memories from the past to, you know, convert you into believing his, 00:31:26.636 --> 00:31:30.566 um, his belief, which is in many ways a, you know, psychological manipulation, 00:31:30.656 --> 00:31:33.576 uh, not to the deep violation extent, um, 00:31:34.746 --> 00:31:35.266 Kevin: Oh gosh. 00:31:35.266 --> 00:31:37.696 I can't believe we didn't put Star Trek V on this 00:31:38.036 --> 00:31:42.036 Rob: Look, yeah, I'm always wanting to bring Star Trek V into the conversation. 00:31:42.136 --> 00:31:45.726 So it's just been in my head the whole time, that beautiful 00:31:45.726 --> 00:31:47.626 moment from, um Shatner. 00:31:47.626 --> 00:31:48.346 And he does it well. 00:31:48.351 --> 00:31:50.966 It's one of the few good moments in the film when they're, you 00:31:50.966 --> 00:31:52.546 know, you know, I want my pain. 00:31:52.796 --> 00:31:54.286 I need my pain. 00:31:54.616 --> 00:31:56.956 That type of stuff just hits me and it stays with me. 00:31:56.956 --> 00:32:02.626 It's a beautiful moment of what makes us who we are and how, we, uh, how we, 00:32:02.686 --> 00:32:08.266 you know, move forward as, as human beings by, by using that pain, um, yeah, 00:32:08.266 --> 00:32:09.526 it's, it's, it's a beautiful moment. 00:32:09.526 --> 00:32:14.446 So that does connect in many ways, not as intensely, obviously, as in Violations, 00:32:14.446 --> 00:32:19.786 but that same type of mental manipulation to, um, to, to get what you want or 00:32:19.786 --> 00:32:21.496 whether it's for kicks or whatever. 00:32:22.386 --> 00:32:27.936 Kevin: Speaking of Nemesis, there is a prominent, um, photograph of, uh, 00:32:28.026 --> 00:32:34.226 Picard's Academy days shown in Nemesis where he is already bald at Academy, uh, 00:32:34.266 --> 00:32:36.996 because it's Tom Hardy with a bald cap on. 00:32:37.266 --> 00:32:42.846 And, um, and this directly contravenes the glimpse of Picard we get to see 00:32:42.846 --> 00:32:47.946 here in Violations with, uh, you know, a balding but previously full head of hair. 00:32:48.276 --> 00:32:50.856 And, uh, yeah, it, it is unfortunate. 00:32:50.856 --> 00:32:56.886 I think either they forgot or they really needed to make clear to us that, uh, 00:32:56.916 --> 00:33:02.166 Patrick Stewart could have looked like Tom, a bald Hardy when he was younger. 00:33:02.166 --> 00:33:04.626 Like they needed to sell us on that by showing us the 00:33:04.876 --> 00:33:08.031 Rob: And look, it was a very loose, tenuous connection between 00:33:08.031 --> 00:33:09.741 Tom Hardy and Patrick Stewart. 00:33:09.741 --> 00:33:13.891 So they were, you know, they were packing it in quite hard to, to 00:33:14.306 --> 00:33:16.676 Kevin: Not the worst thing about that movie, but it's 00:33:17.031 --> 00:33:21.081 Rob: Well, look, we can bring out the list that we could bring I'm 00:33:21.086 --> 00:33:24.651 sure every Star Trek fan has their PowerPoint presentation to talk you 00:33:24.651 --> 00:33:26.331 through what's wrong with Nemesis. 00:33:26.756 --> 00:33:27.246 Kevin: Yeah. 00:33:27.246 --> 00:33:29.206 Should I go into my second episode of 00:33:29.316 --> 00:33:31.206 Rob: Yes, yes, yes, of course. 00:33:31.206 --> 00:33:31.896 Kick on. 00:33:32.546 --> 00:33:38.426 Kevin: So number two is the next season, season six, episode 15, Tapestry. 00:33:38.456 --> 00:33:42.596 And this is a classic episode of The Next Generation. 00:33:42.596 --> 00:33:46.076 It's on a, on a must watch list for sure. 00:33:46.376 --> 00:33:51.296 This is the episode in which Picard dies in the cold open, 00:33:52.136 --> 00:33:53.996 a phaser blast to the chest. 00:33:54.146 --> 00:34:00.206 His artificial heart stops and he dies on the table in sick bay, and he awakens 00:34:00.356 --> 00:34:07.076 in a white void and discovers, uh, there, waiting for him in the afterlife, is Q. 00:34:07.826 --> 00:34:13.466 Q is there to, uh, kind of do the, the ghost of Christmas past sort of thing and 00:34:13.466 --> 00:34:17.476 say, well, here at the end of your life, do you have any regrets, mon Capitain? 00:34:18.056 --> 00:34:25.226 And Picard admits that in his youth, he, he was a risk taker, he was a hothead, 00:34:25.616 --> 00:34:33.026 and if he had only learned the lessons, of maturity and moderation earlier 00:34:33.026 --> 00:34:37.466 in life, he might not have gotten stabbed in the back by a Nausicaan in 00:34:37.466 --> 00:34:42.026 a barroom brawl, which left him with that artificial heart that ultimately 00:34:42.026 --> 00:34:43.436 was responsible for his death. 00:34:43.441 --> 00:34:47.936 And he is like, if only I had grown up a little sooner, I wouldn't be stuck here 00:34:47.936 --> 00:34:50.276 with you for the rest of eternity, Q. 00:34:50.456 --> 00:34:54.116 And Q goes, well, I've got just the thing, I'm gonna take you into your past 00:34:54.116 --> 00:34:56.636 and you can, you can change your fate. 00:34:57.326 --> 00:35:01.466 Uh, and this entire episode, or the bulk of it is a flashback 00:35:01.466 --> 00:35:03.116 to Picard's Academy days. 00:35:03.326 --> 00:35:09.776 But, uh, Patrick Stewart playing his self to, to Patrick Stewart, 00:35:09.776 --> 00:35:12.896 to himself in the mirror, he looks like, uh, Patrick Stewart. 00:35:12.896 --> 00:35:16.616 But to everyone else, he is young Picard and we do get 00:35:16.651 --> 00:35:19.071 Rob: Oh, little bit of li, little bit of quantum leap there. 00:35:19.071 --> 00:35:19.311 Excellent. 00:35:19.421 --> 00:35:20.441 Kevin: Yes, exactly. 00:35:20.441 --> 00:35:22.001 It's the Quantum Leap version. 00:35:22.451 --> 00:35:24.851 Um, we do get a glimpse of young Picard. 00:35:24.881 --> 00:35:29.471 We get, get to see from the outside that bar room brawl where Picard gets 00:35:29.651 --> 00:35:33.191 stabbed in the back and then kind of collapses to his knees with a spike 00:35:33.191 --> 00:35:37.931 sticking out of his chest and looks down and laughs at And, uh, and it is 00:35:37.931 --> 00:35:44.051 played, uh, I think remarkably well by, uh, an actor named Marcus Nash. 00:35:44.501 --> 00:35:50.321 Um, not known for a lot Marcus Nash and um, I'm not sure he even has any 00:35:50.321 --> 00:35:56.471 lines in this episode, but he looks more like a young Patrick Stewart than 00:35:56.471 --> 00:35:59.621 anyone who has ever, certainly more than 00:35:59.916 --> 00:36:02.586 Rob: I was just about to say, Are you gonna single out, Mr. 00:36:02.586 --> 00:36:03.576 Hardy again? 00:36:03.576 --> 00:36:04.356 Please do. 00:36:04.841 --> 00:36:08.471 Kevin: Yeah, I think there have been several times where they have tried 00:36:08.476 --> 00:36:13.841 to convince us, uh, this is what, what Picard looked like when he was younger. 00:36:13.901 --> 00:36:18.431 Most recently in season two of Star Trek Picard, and I never quite bought 00:36:18.431 --> 00:36:22.511 it as hard as I bought it, right here in, in this barroom brawl. 00:36:22.511 --> 00:36:25.871 Marcus Nash really does look like a young Patrick Stewart, 00:36:25.961 --> 00:36:27.641 um, in a really interesting way. 00:36:28.341 --> 00:36:28.951 Anyway. 00:36:29.516 --> 00:36:31.286 It is a hilarious episode. 00:36:31.286 --> 00:36:36.266 This is one of Ron Moore's first that he wrote for Star Trek The Next Generation. 00:36:36.686 --> 00:36:44.606 And it is just full of classic Q lines that as, as Picard is like admitting 00:36:44.606 --> 00:36:49.016 to him that, oh, you know, if, if I hadn't gone head-to-head with that 00:36:49.016 --> 00:36:52.076 Nausicaan, I wouldn't, wouldn't have gotten stabbed in the back. 00:36:52.796 --> 00:36:59.156 Q, reclining on a, on a beer keg goes, ah, it's a touching story, isn't it? 00:36:59.636 --> 00:37:00.746 Gets you right here. 00:37:01.196 --> 00:37:07.796 And he pats his chest with his fist and just, I was laughing out loud 00:37:07.796 --> 00:37:10.916 watching this show for what must have been the seventh or eighth 00:37:11.726 --> 00:37:13.706 still surprises and delights me. 00:37:14.216 --> 00:37:21.116 Um, young Picard, uh, tries to be the good cadet he wished he had been. 00:37:21.236 --> 00:37:25.926 He manages to alienate his two closest friends who no longer recognize him. 00:37:26.636 --> 00:37:31.421 Um, I'll, I'll skip over the details because it is just so delightful 00:37:31.421 --> 00:37:33.941 to watch, I don't wanna spoil it for you if you haven't seen it. 00:37:34.421 --> 00:37:39.471 But having done this and having successfully avoided the Nausicaan's 00:37:39.486 --> 00:37:44.591 spike, uh, Q transports him back to present day on the Enterprise. 00:37:44.711 --> 00:37:48.641 And sure enough, he lives, but he lives as a lieutenant, junior 00:37:48.641 --> 00:37:53.561 grade wearing the most demeaning uniform color on the Enterprise. 00:37:53.771 --> 00:37:54.731 It is the green 00:37:54.966 --> 00:37:56.646 Rob: Oh, or, 00:37:56.951 --> 00:38:01.061 Kevin: We know, we know the yellow, we know the red, we even know the blue, 00:38:01.181 --> 00:38:04.631 but rarely seen as the green It is 00:38:04.956 --> 00:38:08.106 Rob: we'd even take Wesley, you know, Wesley Crusher's whatever 00:38:08.106 --> 00:38:10.066 the hell his uniform was the green. 00:38:10.901 --> 00:38:11.681 Kevin: Exactly. 00:38:12.071 --> 00:38:12.461 Yeah. 00:38:12.521 --> 00:38:13.061 Very rare. 00:38:13.091 --> 00:38:21.131 Uh, like I think we've seen it in like, um, some science, uh, officers or a a, an 00:38:21.131 --> 00:38:26.908 occasional medical officer will be in kind of an emerald green that just highlights 00:38:26.908 --> 00:38:29.448 how much he does not fit this ship. 00:38:29.578 --> 00:38:33.088 And there is a brilliant scene at the end of this episode. 00:38:33.673 --> 00:38:38.323 Lieutenant junior grade Picard confronts Troi and Riker in Ten Forward and 00:38:38.353 --> 00:38:41.503 like sits down with him and says, Hey, I wanna talk about my career. 00:38:41.533 --> 00:38:43.123 I think I could go places. 00:38:43.363 --> 00:38:45.133 I'd love to get into command. 00:38:45.613 --> 00:38:47.563 And it is very awkward. 00:38:47.563 --> 00:38:51.853 It is the most awkward job interview you've ever seen where Troi and 00:38:51.853 --> 00:38:54.343 Riker are like, we should probably talk about this in private. 00:38:54.403 --> 00:38:56.713 Oh, let's, we should talk about this some other time. 00:38:56.713 --> 00:38:59.563 And Picard goes, no, I insist this is very important to me. 00:39:00.043 --> 00:39:03.343 And they say, hasn't this always been the problem with you? 00:39:03.463 --> 00:39:05.173 Uh, Lieutenant Picard? 00:39:05.323 --> 00:39:10.483 You have lofty goals, but you're never willing to do the hard in order to 00:39:10.483 --> 00:39:13.003 achieve what you're, what you're after. 00:39:13.303 --> 00:39:17.593 Um, you need to stand out on a ship like this if you're going to progress. 00:39:18.103 --> 00:39:22.088 And Picard is so crestfallen. 00:39:22.238 --> 00:39:26.378 This is not a good episode about, uh, growth mindset, we say? 00:39:26.378 --> 00:39:28.508 Like Picard basically says, oh, okay. 00:39:28.778 --> 00:39:30.278 I'm the nobody on this ship. 00:39:30.338 --> 00:39:32.498 I don't wanna live as the nobody on the ship. 00:39:32.528 --> 00:39:33.098 I give up. 00:39:33.098 --> 00:39:34.658 Q you are right. 00:39:34.988 --> 00:39:40.418 Let me out of this hellscape where I'm a lieutenant on the USS Enterprise 00:39:40.633 --> 00:39:40.988 Rob: green. 00:39:41.888 --> 00:39:45.368 Kevin: in green uniform, he very quickly gives up. 00:39:45.368 --> 00:39:47.608 But I think it's just cuz they ran out episode 00:39:47.738 --> 00:39:47.948 Rob: Yeah. 00:39:48.148 --> 00:39:49.428 We've gotta get this thing moving along. 00:39:49.428 --> 00:39:49.628 Come 00:39:49.868 --> 00:39:50.228 Kevin: Yeah. 00:39:50.378 --> 00:39:54.368 But um, yeah, watching Picard's Academy days and watching him 00:39:54.368 --> 00:39:59.348 learn to appreciate his younger hotheaded self, uh, is a delight. 00:39:59.938 --> 00:40:04.378 All of the characters in these flashbacks are wearing your favorite uniform, Rob. 00:40:04.378 --> 00:40:05.938 The Monster Maroon. 00:40:06.268 --> 00:40:13.498 Uh, there is, um, uh, Picard's best friend, um, in one scene that 00:40:13.498 --> 00:40:14.938 stood out to me on this watch. 00:40:14.943 --> 00:40:20.209 He actually buttons it closed on camera and the, you know, the kind 00:40:20.214 --> 00:40:23.638 of magnetic zippers that, that are meant to like, hold it together. 00:40:23.638 --> 00:40:28.888 They don't quite line kind of hangs a little awkwardly, but it feels so 00:40:28.888 --> 00:40:35.298 much more real than the, the, uh, you know, the upgraded Monster Maroon 00:40:35.313 --> 00:40:39.718 that we saw in Strange New Worlds this Uh, it was very satisfying an 00:40:39.718 --> 00:40:42.688 entire episode of, of Monster Maroons. 00:40:43.073 --> 00:40:43.733 Rob: Good to have him back. 00:40:43.733 --> 00:40:44.993 We love the Monster Maroons. 00:40:45.478 --> 00:40:45.928 Kevin: Yeah. 00:40:46.138 --> 00:40:46.438 All right. 00:40:46.438 --> 00:40:47.878 Let's head into Deep Space Nine. 00:40:48.268 --> 00:40:51.988 I, I am hoping you have, uh, pulled one of the episode, like 00:40:51.988 --> 00:40:53.548 the remaining episode that's on my 00:40:53.633 --> 00:40:57.503 Rob: I, I, I assume I will, we'll get to it because it's later on 00:40:57.503 --> 00:41:02.333 down the track, but we're going into season two, episode eight with one 00:41:02.333 --> 00:41:04.313 of my favorite episodes of all time. 00:41:04.373 --> 00:41:07.343 It's, it's incredible episodes, it's Necessary Evil. 00:41:07.768 --> 00:41:08.338 Kevin: This is it. 00:41:08.338 --> 00:41:09.028 This is the one I 00:41:09.033 --> 00:41:10.133 Rob: This the one you picked. 00:41:10.888 --> 00:41:12.058 Kevin: Ah, it's so good, isn't 00:41:12.383 --> 00:41:13.343 Rob: j uh, rewatching it. 00:41:13.343 --> 00:41:15.383 Today was like the first time in a couple of years, and I 00:41:15.383 --> 00:41:17.903 just went Oh, it, I mean, you 00:41:18.058 --> 00:41:21.868 Kevin: I watched it this morning and I was like, ah, I forgot Deep 00:41:21.868 --> 00:41:26.788 Space Nine was ever this Like it's three kinds of good in one 00:41:27.083 --> 00:41:30.953 Rob: It works on so many levels, and there's stuff about Odo 00:41:30.953 --> 00:41:32.243 that they haven't brought. 00:41:33.173 --> 00:41:39.633 They didn't do much of is him as an investigator and him as a non-humanoid 00:41:39.653 --> 00:41:43.558 being able to pick all the, it's very much him as Sherlock Holmes, really. 00:41:43.978 --> 00:41:48.918 And I, they could have done a procedural series of just Constable Odo. 00:41:49.298 --> 00:41:54.068 It's one of our earlier episodes of seeing, um, Deep Space 00:41:54.068 --> 00:41:55.568 Nine when it was Terok Nor. 00:41:55.688 --> 00:41:57.158 So the lighting's different. 00:41:57.158 --> 00:41:58.448 The feel different. 00:41:58.448 --> 00:42:02.228 It's darker, it's colder, it's more harsh with the lights. 00:42:02.318 --> 00:42:08.478 Um, the Cardassians are just fat with corruption and power and, 00:42:08.478 --> 00:42:10.158 um, that's a metaphorical fat. 00:42:10.158 --> 00:42:11.758 I'm doing that in inverted commas. 00:42:11.868 --> 00:42:16.538 And you see how tough it was for the Bajorans and how they were treated 00:42:16.568 --> 00:42:18.908 and Odo's perception within that. 00:42:18.908 --> 00:42:23.603 I wrote down a couple of lines because it's just, beautifully 00:42:23.603 --> 00:42:24.953 played by René Auberjonois. 00:42:25.078 --> 00:42:27.683 I mean, just giving him an episode just to himself. 00:42:27.683 --> 00:42:29.873 You just go and here you go. 00:42:29.933 --> 00:42:33.143 You have 30 years of experience at that point. 00:42:33.263 --> 00:42:36.233 As a stage, screen actor, let him go. 00:42:36.483 --> 00:42:41.553 He says in voiceover In this job, there is no unfinished business. 00:42:42.203 --> 00:42:47.993 Kevin: This is a noir episode because the conceit is that Sisko has forced 00:42:47.993 --> 00:42:52.343 him to start keeping a security and his first security log is Sisko, is 00:42:52.343 --> 00:42:54.653 forcing me to make this security log. 00:42:54.653 --> 00:42:58.763 Humans are so stupid, everything's under control, end of log, 00:42:58.833 --> 00:42:59.043 Rob: Yeah. 00:42:59.043 --> 00:43:02.043 The part where he goes, they need to remember everything. 00:43:02.373 --> 00:43:04.083 I've got it all in my head. 00:43:04.623 --> 00:43:05.193 fine. 00:43:05.193 --> 00:43:06.663 Everything's under control. 00:43:07.133 --> 00:43:09.983 Kevin: But very quickly he starts to indulge himself as he 00:43:09.988 --> 00:43:11.243 gets sucked into this mystery. 00:43:11.243 --> 00:43:15.263 And he uses his log to tell the, the gritty, the gritty 00:43:15.503 --> 00:43:17.803 inner monologue of investigator. 00:43:18.273 --> 00:43:21.243 Rob: And it's just like, but there's great comedy in there as well. 00:43:21.243 --> 00:43:26.803 So when you flash back into regular time, the fact that Quark is on death's door 00:43:27.103 --> 00:43:33.073 and, uh, Rom is accused of doing it, and Rom doesn't have that much sorrow for 00:43:33.073 --> 00:43:34.623 the fact that, oh, I can have the bar? 00:43:34.633 --> 00:43:35.683 It's mine now? 00:43:36.693 --> 00:43:40.683 Kevin: You're not, you're not keeping him alive by artificial means, Quark wouldn't 00:43:40.753 --> 00:43:40.933 Rob: No. 00:43:41.383 --> 00:43:45.033 And just, and right near the end, it's almost at the point of cheesy. 00:43:45.243 --> 00:43:48.363 So Quark is almost killed again for the second time. 00:43:48.543 --> 00:43:51.813 Rom saves him by screaming in his usual high pitch squeal, 00:43:52.173 --> 00:43:53.703 Odo comes and saves him. 00:43:53.793 --> 00:43:54.663 He's still screaming. 00:43:54.663 --> 00:43:55.743 He goes, it's all over. 00:43:56.373 --> 00:43:57.353 It's all over Rom. 00:43:57.803 --> 00:44:00.203 Kevin: Saved your brother's You're a hero. 00:44:00.213 --> 00:44:01.923 Rob: screams again cuz his brother's alive. 00:44:01.923 --> 00:44:07.303 And the camera pans down to an unconscious Quark, and his lifeless 00:44:07.303 --> 00:44:10.033 face just curls up into a smile. 00:44:10.573 --> 00:44:13.663 Um, so that is in this episode when you've got 00:44:14.163 --> 00:44:14.733 Kevin: I know. 00:44:14.763 --> 00:44:19.373 With everything else going on, this is a great Quark and Rom 00:44:20.003 --> 00:44:23.333 This Ferengi double act comic duo. 00:44:23.333 --> 00:44:25.733 They are the clowns of the episode, and it is, 00:44:26.093 --> 00:44:32.348 Oh, young Quark during the He's like, Quark at 11, and I 00:44:32.643 --> 00:44:32.883 Rob: Oh. 00:44:32.913 --> 00:44:35.913 That just the beautiful moment we goes, you know, you wanna drink? 00:44:35.913 --> 00:44:36.783 He goes, I don't drink. 00:44:36.813 --> 00:44:37.923 Okay, you want a soft drink, 00:44:38.318 --> 00:44:38.558 Kevin: Yeah. 00:44:38.678 --> 00:44:40.788 pulls out the little drink with sparkly 00:44:40.923 --> 00:44:44.573 Rob: And then later on he goes, how about companionship? 00:44:44.763 --> 00:44:45.933 And you go, oh. 00:44:46.828 --> 00:44:52.018 But the heart of this episode is, and it's always my favorite relationship within the 00:44:52.023 --> 00:44:54.568 whole Star Trek series is Odo and Kira. 00:44:55.848 --> 00:44:58.398 Kevin: A foundational story between Odo and Kira. 00:44:58.548 --> 00:45:02.358 This is like some of the earliest of them admitting to each other 00:45:02.363 --> 00:45:07.048 that their relationship is special, ages before it becomes romantic, but 00:45:07.328 --> 00:45:08.918 Rob: that's the type of stuff we were crying out for. 00:45:08.948 --> 00:45:13.298 Cause I kind of think at this point there's elements of you kind of sense 00:45:13.848 --> 00:45:14.358 Kevin: Yeah 00:45:15.278 --> 00:45:16.778 Rob: There's that vibe of Odo. 00:45:16.838 --> 00:45:20.438 And I think it's even, even clearer, like, cuz Kira's moving from, 00:45:20.568 --> 00:45:21.738 you know, she, she gets around. 00:45:21.738 --> 00:45:24.238 She's very much the Chakotay of Deep Space Nine. 00:45:24.508 --> 00:45:27.718 And you always see that defeated air to Odo. 00:45:28.098 --> 00:45:33.050 But this is a really powerful one of, how they actually first met. 00:45:33.050 --> 00:45:33.980 And you talk about noir. 00:45:34.490 --> 00:45:38.540 The first time they meet, he sits down and tries to pull a detective 00:45:38.540 --> 00:45:41.540 from a noir lime, what's a pretty girl like you eating alone? 00:45:41.870 --> 00:45:42.560 Beautiful. 00:45:42.710 --> 00:45:43.520 Uh, and 00:45:44.425 --> 00:45:48.655 Kevin: uh, she calls him Constable for the first time in that Uh, 00:45:48.685 --> 00:45:54.175 the very last line is Kira saying Everyone has to choose sides, And 00:45:54.445 --> 00:45:55.945 I've, I was like, wait, was that it? 00:45:55.975 --> 00:45:58.375 Was that the first time someone said Constable to him? 00:45:58.435 --> 00:46:00.475 And I re-watched the scene and yes. 00:46:00.505 --> 00:46:03.805 He doesn't introduce himself by name or by title. 00:46:03.925 --> 00:46:06.225 She gives him that moment. 00:46:06.460 --> 00:46:11.200 Rob: I hadn't forgotten, but it was good to be, My memory refreshed that 00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:13.570 he got his creation from Gul Dukat. 00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:15.960 So much good comes out of evil. 00:46:16.080 --> 00:46:20.940 And the final scene, I mean, it's written by, uh, Peter Allen Fields, who, uh, 00:46:20.945 --> 00:46:26.310 is an incredible writer and he will be showing up again in my next episode. 00:46:26.310 --> 00:46:27.270 Incredible writer. 00:46:27.825 --> 00:46:28.995 Kevin: A twisty mystery. 00:46:28.995 --> 00:46:35.685 The twist at the end for me is really I, I think I was expecting, like, 00:46:36.045 --> 00:46:40.395 all through this, I was enjoying the journey, but I just naively assumed the 00:46:40.395 --> 00:46:42.405 actual mystery would be uninteresting. 00:46:42.410 --> 00:46:47.265 Like I thought, you know, we know who the guilty party is, it's obvious, 00:46:47.270 --> 00:46:52.215 and then they, they, they pull a fast one on us and it is so much richer 00:46:52.345 --> 00:46:54.535 Rob: and it's incredible going back and watching it because 00:46:54.535 --> 00:46:55.885 I hadn't seen for a while. 00:46:55.885 --> 00:47:00.115 And when, um, Odo says the line, you're not a very good liar. 00:47:00.175 --> 00:47:03.475 And I'm there going, hang on, this is what, and then at the end, the twist goes, 00:47:03.775 --> 00:47:05.995 of course she's, she's the best liar. 00:47:05.995 --> 00:47:10.285 She's, been working this rebellion for years. 00:47:10.345 --> 00:47:17.125 Um, and that final, it's it's perfect nineties TV type stuff where yeah, it, 00:47:17.185 --> 00:47:21.685 it's what I grew up with in the nineties with watching all those type of shows and, 00:47:22.075 --> 00:47:25.595 you know, Star Trek Deep Space Nine did it just like all the other shows at that 00:47:25.600 --> 00:47:27.785 time that were at the top of their game. 00:47:27.935 --> 00:47:30.215 That final scene with the two characters. 00:47:30.305 --> 00:47:35.405 It's just two characters talking and how their relationship has changed 00:47:35.410 --> 00:47:36.875 because of the events that happened. 00:47:37.245 --> 00:47:40.185 For her to reveal, you know, because you're so special to me and your 00:47:40.185 --> 00:47:41.955 opinion's so important to me. 00:47:42.465 --> 00:47:44.775 And do you think you can ever trust me again? 00:47:45.285 --> 00:47:49.425 And just that final shot, which is so nineties of just the two of them 00:47:50.065 --> 00:47:50.915 Kevin: Unresolved. 00:47:51.285 --> 00:47:55.395 Rob: it's a profile shot, and you've got Kira just desperately looking at him and 00:47:55.395 --> 00:48:01.785 Odo resting up against his chair and his head down and it just fades to, you know, 00:48:01.790 --> 00:48:04.245 the producer credits and you just go, ah, 00:48:05.105 --> 00:48:05.855 Kevin: So good. 00:48:06.045 --> 00:48:07.335 Rob: such good episode. 00:48:07.335 --> 00:48:09.435 And just like in his outfit as well. 00:48:09.435 --> 00:48:11.415 It's so much a better outfit with a high collar. 00:48:11.420 --> 00:48:14.875 And it's all like, like, it feels like it's cold in Terok Nor. 00:48:15.341 --> 00:48:19.511 Kevin: The color scheme, like it's all grays and blues and cold. 00:48:19.565 --> 00:48:20.991 Rob: And harsh backlight. 00:48:21.021 --> 00:48:22.761 Lots of backlight, which 00:48:22.991 --> 00:48:25.901 Kevin: A lot of burlap on the wall for some reason. 00:48:26.391 --> 00:48:28.821 Rob: Yes, it's, it's, it's a Cardassian 00:48:28.841 --> 00:48:29.141 Kevin: Yeah. 00:48:29.251 --> 00:48:29.491 Rob: yeah. 00:48:30.111 --> 00:48:31.221 Um, I just love it. 00:48:31.221 --> 00:48:32.931 It's such a beautiful episode. 00:48:32.931 --> 00:48:37.018 Kevin: All I remembered about this episode was that there was an episode 00:48:37.048 --> 00:48:42.101 set on Terok Nor during the occupation, and I was like, oh, I'll go find that. 00:48:42.191 --> 00:48:46.571 Uh, I did not remember anything else about this episode, so it was a delight to 00:48:46.956 --> 00:48:47.316 Rob: Yeah. 00:48:47.316 --> 00:48:49.416 This is, yeah, this is one that always stuck in my head. 00:48:49.416 --> 00:48:53.346 I just, every time I, as soon as we said flashback and said, I've gotta find it. 00:48:53.436 --> 00:48:56.726 Um, and yeah, it's René Auberjonois in top form. 00:48:56.776 --> 00:48:58.786 It's Nana Visitor in top form. 00:48:58.853 --> 00:49:00.773 Uh, the others sort of like in the background. 00:49:00.773 --> 00:49:04.523 So you don't have, you don't have Sisko or Dax or that in it much. 00:49:04.853 --> 00:49:08.450 Um, and you know, you've got Gul Dukat in top form. 00:49:08.455 --> 00:49:11.150 So Mark's in top form, Max is in top form as Rom. 00:49:11.510 --> 00:49:16.833 It's, you know, Armin Shimerman shows that shade of when he's dark, you know, 00:49:16.833 --> 00:49:18.933 dark Quark and when he's lightened up. 00:49:19.323 --> 00:49:21.003 So yeah, it's, it's an incredible episode. 00:49:21.003 --> 00:49:23.493 Necessary Evil, season two, episode eight. 00:49:23.823 --> 00:49:25.863 Uh, if you haven't seen it, go watch it. 00:49:25.863 --> 00:49:26.493 It's, uh, 00:49:26.578 --> 00:49:30.578 Kevin: The fact that that's a season two episode and my episodes of TNG were 00:49:30.583 --> 00:49:35.553 season five and six is a testament to just how quickly DS9 found its confidence. 00:49:36.173 --> 00:49:39.803 Rob: A lot of people say, oh, it didn't find its feet until season four. 00:49:39.803 --> 00:49:40.913 Going, no, no, no. 00:49:40.963 --> 00:49:45.493 It was hitting some really impressive, uh, strides in, in the early seasons. 00:49:46.308 --> 00:49:47.928 Kevin: Where's our last stop in Deep Space 00:49:47.983 --> 00:49:50.863 Rob: Our last stop in Deep Space Nine history is one of the greatest 00:49:50.863 --> 00:49:53.593 star Trek episodes of all time. 00:49:53.623 --> 00:49:57.643 It is, In the Pale Moonlight. 00:49:58.428 --> 00:50:00.348 Kevin: Oh, okay. 00:50:00.348 --> 00:50:02.088 I don't remember this one being a flashback. 00:50:02.088 --> 00:50:02.418 Talk me 00:50:02.443 --> 00:50:02.743 Rob: Yeah. 00:50:02.748 --> 00:50:04.568 Again, written by Peter Allen Fields. 00:50:04.568 --> 00:50:05.738 Well done, you, sir. 00:50:05.838 --> 00:50:13.158 It is the great, the incredible, uh, Avery Brooks looking down the barrel of 00:50:13.158 --> 00:50:16.048 the camera, recording his diary entry. 00:50:16.198 --> 00:50:22.258 Um, and he's talking directly to us about what he has done in the last two weeks. 00:50:22.258 --> 00:50:25.258 He's forgotten how, how much time has passed in such a 00:50:25.258 --> 00:50:27.011 short window of opportunity. 00:50:27.311 --> 00:50:31.701 And it's about the Dominion War has been slogging on for months. 00:50:31.761 --> 00:50:36.561 Uh, every day or every week, he has to put up the names of the casualties 00:50:36.561 --> 00:50:41.361 and he has to watch every Thursday he has to go and watch the people, you 00:50:41.361 --> 00:50:45.891 know, he knows, goes and try and find, uh, people they know or people they, 00:50:46.311 --> 00:50:47.841 whether their names are on the board. 00:50:47.871 --> 00:50:54.336 And he comes up with a bold plan because the main source of contention is that 00:50:54.336 --> 00:50:56.946 the Romulans have not entered the war. 00:50:56.976 --> 00:51:00.833 They have signed a treaty of no involvement with the Dominion. 00:51:00.883 --> 00:51:05.833 Uh, Betazed is taken over, invaded in 10 hours. 00:51:06.221 --> 00:51:07.151 Kevin: Offscreen. 00:51:07.571 --> 00:51:11.201 It is, it is brutal that they invade Betazed offscreen 00:51:11.291 --> 00:51:12.471 leave it to your imagination. 00:51:12.740 --> 00:51:14.330 Rob: And other planets are at risk. 00:51:14.416 --> 00:51:16.856 Vulcan, Alpha Centauri, all that type of stuff. 00:51:17.216 --> 00:51:22.886 As always, when you want something dastardly done, you turn to a tailor. 00:51:23.366 --> 00:51:27.773 Uh, and so of course it's one of the best episodes of Deep Space Nine and 00:51:27.773 --> 00:51:31.103 one of the best episodes of Star Trek because you have Andrew Robinson as 00:51:31.103 --> 00:51:37.333 Garak front and center, um, as the devil in your ear and giving you not what 00:51:37.333 --> 00:51:39.553 you want, but definitely what you need. 00:51:39.730 --> 00:51:42.190 Kevin: Whether you, whether you are prepared to ask for it 00:51:42.200 --> 00:51:42.770 Rob: Yeah. 00:51:43.250 --> 00:51:48.050 And so, uh, they go down the slippery slope of how can they convince, uh, 00:51:48.080 --> 00:51:54.135 or cheat or lie, hoodwink the Romulans into entering the Dominion War. 00:51:54.345 --> 00:51:59.465 And so it's compromise after compromise after compromise that Sisko has to do. 00:51:59.675 --> 00:52:05.005 And this is the fall of Sisko as the hopeful diplomat into, uh, 00:52:05.365 --> 00:52:09.535 the, you know, the man behind the machinations of, uh, the Dominion War. 00:52:09.865 --> 00:52:13.945 So it's an incredible episode of, uh, Garak there, pushing him 00:52:13.945 --> 00:52:17.215 further to go farther than he would ever want to go before. 00:52:17.575 --> 00:52:21.925 And, um, a beautiful resolution at the end where he just goes, you. 00:52:22.570 --> 00:52:23.980 I, I would do it all again. 00:52:24.590 --> 00:52:25.610 And it's all in flashback. 00:52:25.610 --> 00:52:29.340 So as he is talking to the camera, to the recording, he 00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:31.170 goes, there's voiceover as well. 00:52:31.170 --> 00:52:34.920 And it goes back to the two weeks of him seeing the compromises 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:38.490 that he makes, seeing the high body count in this episode. 00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:45.450 Um, uh, this is like in the heart of Dominion War, season six, episode 19. 00:52:46.130 --> 00:52:46.460 Kevin: Yeah. 00:52:46.460 --> 00:52:50.570 It's very much that sort of, um, narrated structure that we saw 00:52:50.570 --> 00:52:53.630 with Odo in the previous episode as well, so I'm not surprised that 00:52:53.630 --> 00:52:58.070 it's the same writer obviously, like comfortable with that, that narrated 00:52:58.250 --> 00:53:01.720 storytelling in a Um, yeah, it's 00:53:02.190 --> 00:53:02.580 Rob: Yeah. 00:53:02.585 --> 00:53:07.990 And you see how it really is a reveal of Sisko as a character. 00:53:08.198 --> 00:53:11.388 Kevin: It reveals the inner world of the character in a way you don't normally 00:53:11.538 --> 00:53:15.048 Rob: I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole episode we can do on Star 00:53:15.048 --> 00:53:16.698 Trek's connection to Shakespeare. 00:53:16.998 --> 00:53:22.008 I mean, Nimoy with his writing in the Star Trek movies in Star Trek, 00:53:22.068 --> 00:53:25.518 his involvement with the writing of the Star Trek movies was always 00:53:25.523 --> 00:53:26.868 putting Shakespeare front and center. 00:53:26.873 --> 00:53:28.148 You see it in Star Trek II. 00:53:28.163 --> 00:53:30.408 You see it in Star Trek VI even more so. 00:53:30.928 --> 00:53:32.148 You see it in Star Trek IV. 00:53:32.258 --> 00:53:34.533 He just brings in Shakespeare and that has stayed. 00:53:34.533 --> 00:53:35.793 It has lingered with Star Trek. 00:53:35.793 --> 00:53:41.613 And this is very much, um, a soliloquy, an hour long soliloquy by, Sisko. 00:53:41.613 --> 00:53:45.303 He doesn't confide in his friends or his, um, people. 00:53:45.303 --> 00:53:46.833 He confides in the audience. 00:53:46.863 --> 00:53:49.443 The perfect example of a Shakespearean soliloquy. 00:53:49.443 --> 00:53:50.163 He even says that. 00:53:50.163 --> 00:53:51.243 He said, I can't even tell. 00:53:51.333 --> 00:53:52.203 I can't tell anybody. 00:53:52.203 --> 00:53:54.723 Not even Dax, my oldest friend. 00:53:55.100 --> 00:53:59.930 Kevin: In the same way that something like Best of Both Worlds that we talked about 00:53:59.930 --> 00:54:06.580 recently pioneered the cliffhanger season finale format, I feel like this was an 00:54:06.580 --> 00:54:11.680 early example of, of a story structure that has definitely become cliche and 00:54:11.685 --> 00:54:17.410 overdone in TV, which is the cold open that is like, I bet you're wondering 00:54:17.415 --> 00:54:20.620 how things got this let's rewind. 00:54:20.620 --> 00:54:25.930 Like 24 hours earlier, and we get to see the whole story up until, up until the 00:54:25.930 --> 00:54:30.490 climax that we have already gotten to see a glimpse of at the start of the episode. 00:54:30.910 --> 00:54:35.560 This, I think though, the introduction of the narration and the fact that you 00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:39.280 get to see, you get to hear the character reflecting on their own actions, their 00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:45.000 own choices, their own compromises, uh, is what enriches it beyond the 00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:47.280 lazy flashback, I'll say, in inverted 00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:52.010 Rob: There, there's so much so, you, the flashback is the evidence 00:54:52.100 --> 00:54:54.380 and it's, it's almost, well, it is. 00:54:54.380 --> 00:54:59.630 It's Sisko pleading his case, not only to us the audience, but to himself. 00:54:59.690 --> 00:55:03.770 There are moments where he stops almost addressing the audience and it's more 00:55:03.770 --> 00:55:07.730 to himself defending himself and his actions going, you know, it was another 00:55:08.200 --> 00:55:12.290 Thursday, I don't want a another list, and another list and another list. 00:55:12.350 --> 00:55:15.110 People are dying and he says, planets are dying. 00:55:15.115 --> 00:55:20.360 And, you know, um, and that's his arguing with his own inner demons. 00:55:20.365 --> 00:55:21.260 It's beautiful. 00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:28.100 And then to have a final confrontation when, uh, Garak has gone the steps 00:55:28.130 --> 00:55:32.240 that Sisko didn't want to admit that he was willing to go to. 00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:37.370 There's an incredible confrontation with a bloodied up, uh, Garak just 00:55:37.370 --> 00:55:39.906 there going, this is everything. 00:55:39.936 --> 00:55:46.271 And if we are sacrificing, two people and a criminal to save thousands, 00:55:46.271 --> 00:55:48.851 millions of lives, I would do it again. 00:55:49.161 --> 00:55:51.111 And Sisko admits that as well. 00:55:51.111 --> 00:55:55.671 And there's the often repeating a gif and meme going around of Sisko 00:55:55.671 --> 00:55:58.761 raising his glass to the camera right down the barrel of the camera. 00:55:59.141 --> 00:55:59.981 Kevin: I can live with 00:56:00.021 --> 00:56:00.441 Rob: yeah. 00:56:00.711 --> 00:56:05.811 Um, it's, it, it's a great way of seeing, not only is the flashback finding out more 00:56:05.811 --> 00:56:13.281 about the character, but you see in that 45 minute episode, you see Sisko change. 00:56:13.831 --> 00:56:14.546 Kevin: Yeah. 00:56:14.996 --> 00:56:15.896 Oh, this one. 00:56:16.166 --> 00:56:20.426 It would not have occurred to me because it is not a literal, um, like 00:56:20.431 --> 00:56:26.366 trip into years, years and decades past of a, of a character's origin. 00:56:26.846 --> 00:56:28.526 But you're absolutely right. 00:56:28.526 --> 00:56:32.747 That is a, it is a flashback that reveals character in a way that we've never 00:56:33.961 --> 00:56:34.441 Rob: So, yeah. 00:56:34.471 --> 00:56:35.971 Um, In the Pale Moonlight 00:56:36.021 --> 00:56:37.431 Kevin: He deletes his log at the end 00:56:37.471 --> 00:56:39.181 Rob: of course he frigging does. 00:56:39.241 --> 00:56:40.591 Of course he does. 00:56:40.771 --> 00:56:43.101 As soon as he starts going, this is my personal log I'm 00:56:43.171 --> 00:56:45.031 going, this is not gonna stay. 00:56:47.161 --> 00:56:47.581 No. 00:56:47.751 --> 00:56:49.101 Kevin: between him and the audience. 00:56:49.101 --> 00:56:50.571 It's so him and the 00:56:50.761 --> 00:56:54.001 Rob: it's a beautiful, beautiful episode and I highly recommend it. 00:56:54.041 --> 00:56:58.261 I would put it in one of the top 10 episodes of Star Trek of all 00:56:58.261 --> 00:57:01.581 time and in the top five Deep Space Nine episodes, easily. 00:57:03.626 --> 00:57:04.466 Kevin: Well, thank you. 00:57:04.471 --> 00:57:05.786 Uh, some great flashbacks. 00:57:05.786 --> 00:57:09.836 I have to admit, when I went looking, the ones that we've had are super 00:57:09.836 --> 00:57:14.096 memorable and great episodes, but not quite as many as I was expecting to 00:57:14.846 --> 00:57:21.626 like, I think in some ways it, it's the easiest way to introduce a character 00:57:21.626 --> 00:57:27.236 that rather than revealing through story, they reveal by telling a origin story. 00:57:27.266 --> 00:57:30.901 It's just, it is not a pattern that Star Trek has leaned 00:57:30.901 --> 00:57:32.341 on as often as I thought it 00:57:32.591 --> 00:57:38.171 Rob: It's definitely a trait that's used a lot in, um, genre based television of 00:57:38.171 --> 00:57:40.501 that nineties era and early noughties. 00:57:40.526 --> 00:57:45.356 It's surprisingly not as many in Star Trek as, uh, but we found enough. 00:57:46.066 --> 00:57:46.606 Kevin: Yeah, we sure 00:57:46.766 --> 00:57:47.156 Rob: Yeah. 00:57:47.156 --> 00:57:50.366 So, um, uh, it's good to, uh, chinwag again. 00:57:50.366 --> 00:57:52.796 We're, we're, we are getting close the end of Prodigy 00:57:53.116 --> 00:57:53.866 Kevin: We sure are. 00:57:53.866 --> 00:57:56.746 It's, it's, uh, we're running short of episodes in Prodigy. 00:57:56.966 --> 00:57:59.236 I think I will be, yeah. 00:57:59.266 --> 00:57:59.896 Four left. 00:57:59.901 --> 00:58:03.666 And, it will, not have outstayed its welcome, I predict. 00:58:03.846 --> 00:58:08.166 This is feeling like a very well-paced season, and it will leave me wanting more. 00:58:08.311 --> 00:58:08.971 Rob: I am. 00:58:09.031 --> 00:58:11.851 Yeah, I'm quite happy that the members of the Protostar have, 00:58:11.881 --> 00:58:13.621 uh, found their way into my heart.