Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me,
Rob: And me, Rob
Kevin: and we are here today to talk about two more episodes of Star Trek Prodigy.
We have episode 15 Masquerade, and 16 Preludes.
And Preludes.
Yeah.
How, how, how fancy do you wanna be?
How many syllables are there in
Rob: I'll take, I'll, I'll add another five in there pre Lus.
Kevin: Uh, what a great couple of episodes of Star Trek, Rob.
Rob: Yes, yes, they are.
With some lovely little, um, uh, cameos from the past, from actors who are
still kicking it along in the twilight of their lives, um, coming back,
which was a, a, a lovely reveal, um,
Kevin: continuing, uh, visitation of Okona in the, the first episode
Rob: you were so happy to see come back.
Kevin: Yeah.
And, uh, I'm not sure it amounted to much like he showed up only to
leave them in the lurch in, unless he's gonna, you know, be the cavalry
unexpected in a later episode.
I feel like he's done a pretty mediocre
Rob: I don't, I don't feel as if he's gonna do a Luke's, uh, sorry, a
Han Solo and come down and save Luke just before the end of A New Hope.
Uh, I believe.
Yeah.
Um, and there's been a lot of things hanging over our heads that we've been
querying about the last couple of weeks have been brought into a bit of focus.
So we found out about certain characters' pasts, we found out about what
certain characters are evolving into.
So it was, um, yeah, a lot, a lot to unpack over, uh, the last two weeks.
Kevin: Yeah.
Okay.
So what stood out for you in Masquerade?
Uh, I could tell you what stood out to me is just the jaw dropping beauty
of that pointy thing, sticking out of the cloud cover of the planet.
That shot, you know how I have nerded out on the shot of the
tiny Enterprise flying towards the behemoth that is the star base?
It felt like that all over again in CG beauty.
Uh, it took my breath
Rob: Look, you have been, uh, harping on, in the most, uh, positive of ways
of, uh, the multiple, um, Uh, animated and, you know, computer rendered, uh,
vistas and landscape images that we do get of star fields or, uh, just
above planets and stuff like that.
And this, uh, episode carried it on as well.
Well, the big reveal and the, the big reveal of this week's episode was we
finally found the backstory of Dal.
We found out more about his, uh, where he comes from, and
that was a huge, uh, revelation.
Kevin: The exact phrase was the handiwork of the proteges of Dr.
Arik Soong.
Okay.
So he's an augment of, of human plus 26 species.
Arik Soong, I believe, is the, uh, incarnation of Brent Spinner that we
got to meet in Star Trek: Enterprise.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: Known for, uh, starting the augment stuff.
What do you make of this?
Is this satisfying for Dal's origin for you, Rob?
He's obviously all torn up about it.
Rob: Yeah, it's interesting when it comes to sort of like representation
within, uh, pop culture or in storytelling and stuff like that.
I'm always drawn to, uh, what recent events that have happened
in Doctor who with the Jodi Whitaker, Chris Chibnall era.
And they introduced this new element of canon that had never been seen before,
and it was a massive, controversial move.
However, there was a, a, a viewership, a population of
the viewership who come from.
Uh, orphan backgrounds who are orphans, and they felt that they were
seen for the first time in the show.
So I'm, I'm open up to this idea of going, you know, seeing, uh, this character who
has no family, who has no past, and that there are members of, of the viewing
audience who go, I can relate to that, um, that storyline of not having a background,
not having a past, not having something to not having a family to tie to.
So it's the families that they make along the way.
Kevin: Hmm.
A genetic orphan
Rob: Yeah, yeah.
With all that sci-fi, higgledy piggledy and stuff that we just love, but at
the root of it, it's, it's an orphan.
Um, and the family they have made, and that's why they're so, you know, Dal's
so passionate about, uh, saving his crew and, and keeping his crew together.
And that's why he gets so jealous easily and all that type of stuff.
But the instinct in, in me at first went, oh, that's a little bit of a cop out.
But the more I watched it and the more I thought about it, it
was a good representation for, you know, not traditional forms
of family or even heritage.
Kevin: As far as canon connections go, the handiwork of the proteges of Dr.
Arik Soong is, is pretty darn tenuous if you ask me.
Arik Soong existed in Star Trek Enterprise, which is pre the original
series, so 23rd century, and this series is set post Voyager, so late 24th century.
So this is like a hundred years removed from that character, would
they still be referring to the, these people who are making augments
as the proteges of Arik Soong?
I don't know.
I am, I'm half suspecting they are somehow going to, uh, show us an animated Brent
Spiner at some point in the series.
Rob: Why not?
Look, if you animate Ronny Cox,
Kevin: That's
Rob: You animate, uh, Bill Campbell.
Anyone could be animated.
Kevin: can be next.
Yeah.
And they are very good at cramming in Brent Spinner anywhere they can
Rob: Look, you know, from the actor who protests too much about, oh,
you know, it's just a role I play.
Um, yep.
He tries to get away and they keep on dragging him back in.
Kevin: Yeah.
I, I really liked this fun kind of, uh, caper on the planet below where it's a
bit of, a you know, no Federation zone being in the Neutral Zone as it is.
And, uh, I really liked the, the way they walk to that thin line
where you can see Dal growing.
Like he, he knew to follow Janeway's advice, and the reason he failed
to follow Janeway's advice was not because he's cocky or naive,
it's because he's insecure.
Like it was, it was revealing a fatal flaw in the character and, and that
is really satisfying to see, I think.
Rob: and it's something they've been pushing a lot since they've
encountered Federation is that, and Janeway has been saying it a lot,
real Janeway and a hologram Janeway.
They're just kids.
They are literally kids controlling this powerful machine.
And so, and Dal's making childish mistakes and kid mistakes.
And he's getting easily manipulated by jealousy, um, and uh, and self-doubt
and, um, insecurity, all that type of stuff, which is the us as
fans need to go, oh, that's right.
This is the kids show.
Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So kids going, yeah, that's fair enough.
These are important issues.
And me as a 44 year old going, oh, oh, I thought I'd grown out of that.
Oh God,
Kevin: Yep.
Uh, watching Dal kind of mutate in real time was a lot of a, that that
was a good gag for the show and I was happy to go along with it.
Um, speaking of Janeway's advice, and speaking of this being a kids show,
I have a grammar bone to pick with this which is Janeway's advice or
Hologram Janeway's advice is if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
Which is not the saying.
That literally means it is true.
What she meant to say is if it sounds too good to be true, it probably
Rob: It's a hologram glitch.
It's a
Kevin: Yeah, it is a hologram glitch, I reckon, for no other reason they establish
at the start of this episode that Hologram Janeway is on the fritz, and the only
evidence we have of this is a brief glitch immediately after Jankom Pog says that.
And then as far as I can tell, she's fine.
Apart from that, but this grammar
Rob: The camera's not on her, she's glitching up a storm
Kevin: I had a similar like grammar quibble with the next episode, and I
don't like, I don't know, I feel like it's just a quality control thing There
is a sense that these episodes of new Star Trek are coming together pretty
fast and pretty hot at times there.
It takes me back to, there's an early episode of Discovery where on the
view screen of the bridge that we are seeing from the other side, so we're
seeing the text in and we're looking through the view screen at the bridge
crew, and the bridge says something, it says something like, standby or
red alert or something like that.
And two of the letters are, are, are in the wrong order.
So it's misspelled.
And just the idea that there would be a typo on like the largest text on
screen audience is meant to be paying attention to and reading in reverse.
Uh, it, it seems like a very unfortunate mistake and I'm seeing
a lot of those kind of little unfortunate mistakes in Star Trek these
Rob: They're trying to pack out the content really quickly and
they're cutting some corners.
Kevin: Yeah.
But if this is the biggest quibble I have with an episode of Star Trek,
it's a pretty darn good episode.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
It was another episode of reveals.
We found out that our, um, Trill officer was
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: um, one of, uh, yes.
In disguise.
Kevin: Yeah.
She, uh, we find out in the next episode is the Vindicator.
But what I loved the most about that reveal, Rob, was that her accent
changed from American to British when she went from good to evil.
Uh, just love the leaning into the, the stereotype there of,
oh, now that I'm clearly evil, I will speak in my evil accent.
Rob: Yes, yes.
There are two different types of colonizers, American hero colonizers
and British evil colonizers get, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just remember that.
Okay.
British bad colonizers, American colonizers we're good.
Kevin: Yes.
Yes.
Rob: Um, but yes, it was a, exciting episode as well because we found out
another, another big reveal, Murf is, developing as well and is, not just,
in humanoid form or well bi form.
Uh, they can, you know, uh, expand their body, move in, you know, they,
they know kung fu to quote, apparently.
Um, and so, uh, Murf's potential is growing as well.
Cuz I was a bit, as about last time, yeah, I was a little bit disappointed when we
first saw Murf come out of the cocoon and I went, all right, so it's just the
same form now with legs, um, and hitting and conveniently hitting the, you know,
the torpedo button when it needed to.
But now to see, okay, Murf is growing and developing and, and it is,
uh, becoming more what they were.
Yeah, ish.
Kevin: At this, at the start when Murf was like just waving the phases around
randomly, and, and I was like, oh, sigh.
And the, the burp fart at the end of the second episode here.
Also, like it is clear he's not, Murf is not gonna grow that much.
Rob: No, no, no, no.
The whole, uh, uh, next episode ends on a fart joke or burp which is
Kevin: Mm-hmm.
Uh, should we move into the second episode?
Rob: Yes.
Episode 16 Preludes, which is the inspiration for our, uh, grander topic
this week, where we just sit around and go, well while we're waiting for
this thing to be done, let's find out a little bit more about each other.
Kevin: Flashback appalooza.
It just stood out to me in this second episode that the Romulan warbirds
kind of gave up pretty easily.
One group of Tal Shiar got beat on the space elevator, and apparently
the Romulans just gave up.
They,
Rob: Yeah.
One thing I, I forgot to mention about, um, the episode, uh, Masquerade is like
you were talking about, that, that hive of activity within the neutral Cuz normally
I get this impression that the neutral zone is select this barren wasteland, but
there's this thriving black market type of, you know, society there surviving
literally on the edge of space is, uh, fascinating just to see a taste of it.
Kevin: Yeah, it reminds me of, uh, the storylines around, uh, the Maquis
where like, planets were changing hands as, as borders were shifted by
geopolitical forces around the galaxy.
And yeah, it gave that same sense of up an in between place that doesn't exist
on any map of or the Romulan empire.
Rob: And I like seeing that little element of, uh, of the Star Trek universe.
It expands it out from just, uh, you know, red, amber, and bluish uniforms.
Kevin: Yeah, the cracks in between.
It, it was
Rob: Yeah.
So, yes, we got to, um, as they were trying to repair things to move on, uh,
they sat around and we found out the backstory of not only our heroes, but we
also got the backstory of, The Diviner.
And we got a more clearer view of his, journey into our timeline and also,
uh, the Starfleet influence that caused the destruction of his society.
Kevin: I really liked how cleverly the backstory for The Diviner was
thrown in there in amongst the backstories of our other, like
protagonist very deft in that way.
Um, that said the actual story of the Vau N'Akat and their launching a hundred star
ships from their shattered world, uh, and each of them with a Drednok on board.
I'm not sure how shattered this world actually is have a hundred starships to
send in, on a, on a hope and a prayer.
Uh, but, the, the storyline is one that I am finding less satisfying
the more we find out about it.
Rob: Sure.
Kevin: I don't know why Chakotay, for example, stuck in the future, his move
would be to send the ship back into the past knowing it was armed with
a, uh, weapon to destroy Starfleet.
If, if you got control of the ship, you know, fly it somewhere like a
Rob: Look, it's Bri, it's bringing up many issues about how Chakotay was as
the first in command of the Voyager anyway, so I mean, he may do a couple
of, uh, hairy decisions in his time in
Kevin: Oh, granted, okay.
Yes.
This is a story about Chakotay's poor judgment,
Rob: look.
Well, that I, I could be just manufacturing that myself.
Kevin: I really wanna know more about Chakotay and his crew like
that, that first Officer Bird thing that he was holding on
his I wanna know more about that
Rob: I believe that's actually their official name.
Yeah.
Kevin: Yes.
The bird
Rob: first, officer Bird.
Kevin: I wanna know if it's the same species as Dr.
Migleemo, for
Rob: hope so.
I really hope so.
I want, yeah.
Well, their Meema is gonna be very, very, you know, worried about
them, so we have to Meema as well.
Kevin: Again, in this episode, a few like un unpolished turns of phrase,
uh, in The Diviner story, one of the things that I was mentioned is
Starfleet's lies of bold new worlds.
I don't know what a bold world is.
It seems like an awkward combination of to boldly go and
Rob: And strange new.
Kevin: but it doesn't actually make sense.
So, yeah, just a little bit of, you know, one more copywriting
pass over the script, maybe.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: The other one that stood out to me was, um, so maybe Gwyn
has me beat, says Dal, and then Zero says, I wouldn't be so sure.
We each have things in our past we wish to forget.
One sentence doesn't follow from the other.
I feel like there were some lines cut from the script here and then what's
left doesn't actually hold together.
Rob: Well, it's interesting because there were so many writers on this one.
I was looking over the, writer's list, and maybe like a writer was
writing each character's backstory and
Kevin: totally sense.
For the rest of these vignettes.
I just love that they kind of gave us all the backstory at once.
I feel like they could have played cagey with these characters for
like, they could have strung out these mysteries for much longer.
Um, but kind of backing up the dump truck of backstory to our doorstep here today,
and just like giving it all to us in one episode, it was really satisfying.
Uh, and I feel like now we can springboard off this more confidently into stories
knowing who our characters are.
Rob: Exactly.
And there's still elements of their past that we haven't got.
Like we've only got, uh, Rok up to a certain point, and even Jankom as well.
And so it's how they got captured as opposed to their entire life story.
So it's a good, you know, good catch up for us to go, right,
we know a little bit more that shapes them who they are, um, and
Kevin: interesting seeing the Kazon become the kidnappers of the Delta Quadrant
suppose when we first meet the Kazon, they are kidnapping Kes, and so what we are
learning is this is a pattern for them.
Rob: This is, this is a part of their culture, apparently.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: we need we need, to acknowledge and accept…?
No, no, no, no, no.
Kevin: It strikes me as a strange way to make money.
We will capture, one at a time, random stragglers around the
galaxy and sell them as slaves.
It's a bit I'm not sure what the return on investment is on a custom box that
makes whale sounds on an asteroid in order to capture one Medusan, if you're
Rob: look, if you're lucky, look, the, um, the, the Kazon
are about quality, not quantity.
Kevin: That's right,
Rob: they have going for pure kidnapping quality right here.
So, um, yeah, I, some of the bridging lines from one flashback to the next
was quite, clunky and probably needed a go over one or two more times.
Cause it was very much a case so how about you?
Who next?
Kevin: Yeah.
I wanna hear your story.
And yeah, I don't know how I feel about Zero just kind of deciding, because they
care, they can read everyone's minds.
That justification didn't quite hold up to me.
Rob: That's, that's a bit of a mechanical wave of all this type of moral ambiguity.
Um, because yeah, so many people have used the word care as an excuse
and that doesn't hold much water.
Kevin: Rok-Tahk's story I really liked.
This, uh, story of Rok-Tahk kind of being the dancing bear in a ring match
with the Hero and the fact that they didn't speak each other's language.
And so the story is very much wordlessly, except for the narration by Rok-Tahk.
And it's, um, it's a charming little story.
You can read a lot of the subtleties of the story on the faces of the characters,
and it's really enjoyable for that reason.
Rob: And that Hero is still out there somewhere, you
Kevin: looking, looking like he feels real guilty about what
happened to He may, he may come back.
Rob: And I'd be okay with that.
It's not a case of going, milking this one,
Kevin: There's, yeah rough edges is showing all over this episode.
Like there's a, a line where, uh, Rok says after the comedy routine, I didn't get
my bowl full of Nutri-goop, only half.
But what is shown in the visuals just a tiny droplet and an empty
bowl, and it's just like, ooh.
The, the words in the visuals don't line up there.
That strikes me as something that could only happen if you're in a
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, um, that's the thing.
So many chefs in this episode and, and, and know they really needed someone
in charge, sort of like to have a bit clearer, uh, go through it one more time.
It was funny and, and cute in some ways, but, uh, I was going, that's the reason
why Jankom Pog keeps on saying Jankom Pog?
He's, he's been psychologically worn down to the of, you know, he's emotionally
crippled and psychologically damaged forever because of this situation.
Kevin: It is a Jason Mantzoukas story, if ever there was.
I feel like this is again and again, Jason Mantzoukas is cast to be, um, the,
the broken brain character of the series.
Um, his, his character in the Good very much echoes into Jankom Pog
for me, where I was like, ah, okay.
He says, Jankom Pog not because that's how he was taught to speak or how he
is brought up or how Tellarites speak.
He says it because a a droid drove him batty on, on a ship for, for a period of
Uh, and I could get on board with it.
Rob: I did like the subtle shift of his voice.
He did really well, like the slightly younger, uh, and a
bit more wide-eyed Jankom Pog.
And then that wore him down and so I, I just picked it up the second time
I watched him, and that's a really subtle change, Mantzoukas, so, uh,
Kevin: Yeah, I liked it too.
The idea that the Tellarites before they became part of the Federation, they
would send their orphans out on deep space missions like, that's a tantalizing
detail of a, uh, a species that has not really been fleshed out in Star
Trek lore other than they are grumpy.
So I'm really like, I'm enjoying that.
I think it's, it's kind of like cruel and, and terrifying, but
it's an interesting detail.
Rob: Exactly.
Yeah, it's great to have, you know, the, this is when you're doing it right, it's
like, it's the big thing that's going on in the Star Wars universe as well, like
with the, the, uh, creation of, Andor.
Everyone's Finally, this is what, uh, Star Wars can be.
It can be stories told by different type of voices and different levels of
perception and, and that type of stuff.
So what we've seen in these last couple of episodes of Prodigy is completely
different to what, like we've gone through, you know, the tail end of
one, but three seasons of Star Trek.
In, you know, the course of however many months we've been doing this just in one
year, and what we got from Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks and now Prodigy.
Completely different, but all, very much within that universe.
And expanding characters that we've seen before, species that we have
seen before, giving them more depth.
It's, it's a very exciting time to see that world building happen and just
have tantalizing little, uh, reveal of this brutal, harsh element of a
character and a, a species that we've only seen as, oh, they're grumpy.
Um, I love that type of stuff.
I love that.
Taking that time to, uh, really, you know, dive into all those little details.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, Zero's story had me thinking of you just cuz that that glowing green
box, that was the trap for Zero.
Uh, and it was, it was very distinctly making whale song.
And I thought, is this gonna be the Star Trek IV, uh, whale
probe tie-in that Rob has
Rob: I would love, I want to find out what happened to Dr.
Gillian, you know.
Where the hell is she?
She was on a science vessel.
You know, I wanna see her around the galaxy.
Kevin: That's right.
Rob: Bring Dr.
Gillian back.
Come on, you bring back Ronny Cox.
Bring back.
Kevin: All, in all seriousness, I felt like Zero's vignette was
the disappointing one for me.
Like it was beautiful and maybe, maybe it was the animator interns that were
let loose on that one, but I feel like there was not a lot of story there.
Rob: It was very short, wasn't it?
It was
Kevin: short.
Rob: Um, they go, I had freedom.
All I can remember is freedom.
And it was a short little thing.
We just saw one thing being eaten by another thing, and
then a green box with Kazons.
Kevin: Medusans have ships.
Show me that, like that ship that they landed on.
I'm like, what is a ship for Medusans?
They obviously don't need it to protect them from space, so it's just to get
around quickly and, and how would you design a ship for gaseous cloud I want
Rob: and the movement of them as well.
They're very much like just individual globs floating around.
Like, I'd like to see more of this, you know, maybe a possible choreography
or a, a blending or how that works.
It's just this case of, it was the barest minimum that they could do.
In my, in my humble opinion.
Kevin: Yeah.
Um, anything else from this episode stand out before we dive into the
Rob: Massive cliff hanger.
What's What's gonna happen with, uh, Janeway?
Kevin: chopped, karate chopped on the shoulder.
She's out.
Rob: They knocked her out.
That's right.
Yep.
They Karate chopped her.
did a karate chop of all the ways they could have knocked her out.
Kevin: Oh yeah.
It's so satisfying.
In so many ways, Star Trek has come so far, yet they are not above
a good 1960s Saturday morning.
Yeah.
Rob: Yeah.
I always, I always think of, uh, Miss Piggy as well, so.
Kevin: Uh, it's so good.
Rob: But yeah, so because of, especially, this week's episode of Prodigy, it got
us thinking about the good old flashback.
Kevin: Yes, I should say off the top.
Um, if you haven't been listening to Subspace Radio, uh, since the
beginning, if you wanna see more of this kind of stuff discussed,
you can go back to Subspace Radio episode two, where we talked about
times that Star Trek literally visited old episodes of Star Trek.
Uh, and we visited the episode entitled Flashback with, uh,
Tuvok's past on the Excelsior during the events of Star Trek VI.
But for this time around, we're gonna take a slightly different angle and,
and like this week's episode of Prodigy, we're, we're looking at flashbacks that
reveal the past of one of our some way.
So I have a few, and I suspect we might agree on one of them.
Rob: Well, yeah, I've gone back to old Rob, within this series.
I've just solely focused on Deep Space Nine, and I found I, I'll
re-watched them today and I just, oh my, these two episodes are
Kevin: They're good, eh?
Rob: pure gold, so yes, I'm
Kevin: I, okay.
I think I know at least one of the ones you're talking about.
But let's, let's do this chronologically and I'll get the
TNG episodes out of the way for us.
Rob: That's what we know, Kevin, you bring the TNG.
Kevin: I did.
Uh, I almost brought in an episode of Enterprise this week because in my
memory, Carbon Creek, the Enterprise episode focusing very much on Jolene
Blalock's visitation of 1950s Earth.
To me, in my memory, that was a T'Pol story, but it was
actually T'Pol's grandmother.
So when I looked at it, I went, Nope.
That, that's, that's against the rules.
T'Pol's past.
It's revealing T'Pol's grandmother's past.
So it's out, but I'm sure we'll get an excuse to talk
about Carbon Creek another day.
An excellent episode of
Rob: Well, Memory Alpha does do because they're just incredible.
I typed in flashback episodes and I did see there were, uh, the odd, uh,
Enterprise one and went, oh, well, uh, shame I haven't watched anything
more than just the first episode.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, my first episode, uh, this time around is from season
five of Star Trek, The Next Generation episode 12, Violations.
It's an uncomfortable watch, this episode.
It is an atypical rape story.
Um, this is a story of a psychic rape, or the presence of a psychic
rapist on board the Enterprise.
It is this species called the Ullians who call themselves archeologists
of the mind or of memory.
And they have this, uh, talent where they can help you recover forgotten memories by
sitting with you and talking you through a half remembered image in your mind.
Suddenly you can, they can, they can tease that memory back to the
surface so you can rediscover it.
And this, this species is going around the galaxy, recovering and
chronicling, uh, forgotten memories to compile in their library.
And it's a really interesting idea, except that one of these Ullians
has a problem where, yeah, well, he gets his kicks, violating people's
memories, inserting himself into them in a traumatic way, and feeding
off that psychic trauma or traumatic experience in, in kind of a power trip.
Um, but, uh, setting aside, you know, it is a good episode, I
think, if you can get past the fact that it is a story about rape.
A lot of the behind the scenes stuff is about how the writers were kind of
excited to find a sci-fi way to tell a story about rape without making it
literally about the physical act of rape.
And that's like, in some ways, what Star Trek does best is take an uncomfortable
subject and make it approachable by, you know, cloaking it in sci-fi.
Rob: the best sci-fi does.
Yeah.
Kevin: And that's what this episode does.
Uh, but the specific memories that are brought to the surface are these
glimpses of our characters' pasts.
And the one that was especially memorable to me is Dr.
Crusher's memory that the alien recovers, and this is the memory of
the time her husband Jack Crusher died.
We have heard through several episodes that Captain Picard delivered the news
of her death, and, and he has felt guilty or felt like he, he owes her
and her son, Wesley, any help he can give them for the rest of their lives
because of this debt that he owes them.
And we get to actually see Picard walking Crusher to the morgue and, and
viewing the body of her dead husband.
And, uh, Picard is made up to look younger.
He has a little more hair on his head.
It's like one of the few times we see Picard with hair on And, uh,
and yeah, again, it is very quickly twisted into something that didn't
actually happen in the episode.
But nevertheless, we get to see a glimpse of these younger versions
of our characters in their past that is very intriguing to me.
As a lore episode, these glimpses you get in here in Violations
are, are really intriguing.
I wish we had seen more of our TNG characters' pasts while the
actors were young enough to pull it
Rob: Yeah, very much.
Um, and there are elements of it in Star Trek V with Sybok using the, those
painful memories from the past to, you know, convert you into believing his,
um, his belief, which is in many ways a, you know, psychological manipulation,
uh, not to the deep violation extent, um,
Kevin: Oh gosh.
I can't believe we didn't put Star Trek V on this
Rob: Look, yeah, I'm always wanting to bring Star Trek V into the conversation.
So it's just been in my head the whole time, that beautiful
moment from, um Shatner.
And he does it well.
It's one of the few good moments in the film when they're, you
know, you know, I want my pain.
I need my pain.
That type of stuff just hits me and it stays with me.
It's a beautiful moment of what makes us who we are and how, we, uh, how we,
you know, move forward as, as human beings by, by using that pain, um, yeah,
it's, it's, it's a beautiful moment.
So that does connect in many ways, not as intensely, obviously, as in Violations,
but that same type of mental manipulation to, um, to, to get what you want or
whether it's for kicks or whatever.
Kevin: Speaking of Nemesis, there is a prominent, um, photograph of, uh,
Picard's Academy days shown in Nemesis where he is already bald at Academy, uh,
because it's Tom Hardy with a bald cap on.
And, um, and this directly contravenes the glimpse of Picard we get to see
here in Violations with, uh, you know, a balding but previously full head of hair.
And, uh, yeah, it, it is unfortunate.
I think either they forgot or they really needed to make clear to us that, uh,
Patrick Stewart could have looked like Tom, a bald Hardy when he was younger.
Like they needed to sell us on that by showing us the
Rob: And look, it was a very loose, tenuous connection between
Tom Hardy and Patrick Stewart.
So they were, you know, they were packing it in quite hard to, to
Kevin: Not the worst thing about that movie, but it's
Rob: Well, look, we can bring out the list that we could bring I'm
sure every Star Trek fan has their PowerPoint presentation to talk you
through what's wrong with Nemesis.
Kevin: Yeah.
Should I go into my second episode of
Rob: Yes, yes, yes, of course.
Kick on.
Kevin: So number two is the next season, season six, episode 15, Tapestry.
And this is a classic episode of The Next Generation.
It's on a, on a must watch list for sure.
This is the episode in which Picard dies in the cold open,
a phaser blast to the chest.
His artificial heart stops and he dies on the table in sick bay, and he awakens
in a white void and discovers, uh, there, waiting for him in the afterlife, is Q.
Q is there to, uh, kind of do the, the ghost of Christmas past sort of thing and
say, well, here at the end of your life, do you have any regrets, mon Capitain?
And Picard admits that in his youth, he, he was a risk taker, he was a hothead,
and if he had only learned the lessons, of maturity and moderation earlier
in life, he might not have gotten stabbed in the back by a Nausicaan in
a barroom brawl, which left him with that artificial heart that ultimately
was responsible for his death.
And he is like, if only I had grown up a little sooner, I wouldn't be stuck here
with you for the rest of eternity, Q.
And Q goes, well, I've got just the thing, I'm gonna take you into your past
and you can, you can change your fate.
Uh, and this entire episode, or the bulk of it is a flashback
to Picard's Academy days.
But, uh, Patrick Stewart playing his self to, to Patrick Stewart,
to himself in the mirror, he looks like, uh, Patrick Stewart.
But to everyone else, he is young Picard and we do get
Rob: Oh, little bit of li, little bit of quantum leap there.
Excellent.
Kevin: Yes, exactly.
It's the Quantum Leap version.
Um, we do get a glimpse of young Picard.
We get, get to see from the outside that bar room brawl where Picard gets
stabbed in the back and then kind of collapses to his knees with a spike
sticking out of his chest and looks down and laughs at And, uh, and it is
played, uh, I think remarkably well by, uh, an actor named Marcus Nash.
Um, not known for a lot Marcus Nash and um, I'm not sure he even has any
lines in this episode, but he looks more like a young Patrick Stewart than
anyone who has ever, certainly more than
Rob: I was just about to say, Are you gonna single out, Mr.
Hardy again?
Please do.
Kevin: Yeah, I think there have been several times where they have tried
to convince us, uh, this is what, what Picard looked like when he was younger.
Most recently in season two of Star Trek Picard, and I never quite bought
it as hard as I bought it, right here in, in this barroom brawl.
Marcus Nash really does look like a young Patrick Stewart,
um, in a really interesting way.
Anyway.
It is a hilarious episode.
This is one of Ron Moore's first that he wrote for Star Trek The Next Generation.
And it is just full of classic Q lines that as, as Picard is like admitting
to him that, oh, you know, if, if I hadn't gone head-to-head with that
Nausicaan, I wouldn't, wouldn't have gotten stabbed in the back.
Q, reclining on a, on a beer keg goes, ah, it's a touching story, isn't it?
Gets you right here.
And he pats his chest with his fist and just, I was laughing out loud
watching this show for what must have been the seventh or eighth
still surprises and delights me.
Um, young Picard, uh, tries to be the good cadet he wished he had been.
He manages to alienate his two closest friends who no longer recognize him.
Um, I'll, I'll skip over the details because it is just so delightful
to watch, I don't wanna spoil it for you if you haven't seen it.
But having done this and having successfully avoided the Nausicaan's
spike, uh, Q transports him back to present day on the Enterprise.
And sure enough, he lives, but he lives as a lieutenant, junior
grade wearing the most demeaning uniform color on the Enterprise.
It is the green
Rob: Oh, or,
Kevin: We know, we know the yellow, we know the red, we even know the blue,
but rarely seen as the green It is
Rob: we'd even take Wesley, you know, Wesley Crusher's whatever
the hell his uniform was the green.
Kevin: Exactly.
Yeah.
Very rare.
Uh, like I think we've seen it in like, um, some science, uh, officers or a a, an
occasional medical officer will be in kind of an emerald green that just highlights
how much he does not fit this ship.
And there is a brilliant scene at the end of this episode.
Lieutenant junior grade Picard confronts Troi and Riker in Ten Forward and
like sits down with him and says, Hey, I wanna talk about my career.
I think I could go places.
I'd love to get into command.
And it is very awkward.
It is the most awkward job interview you've ever seen where Troi and
Riker are like, we should probably talk about this in private.
Oh, let's, we should talk about this some other time.
And Picard goes, no, I insist this is very important to me.
And they say, hasn't this always been the problem with you?
Uh, Lieutenant Picard?
You have lofty goals, but you're never willing to do the hard in order to
achieve what you're, what you're after.
Um, you need to stand out on a ship like this if you're going to progress.
And Picard is so crestfallen.
This is not a good episode about, uh, growth mindset, we say?
Like Picard basically says, oh, okay.
I'm the nobody on this ship.
I don't wanna live as the nobody on the ship.
I give up.
Q you are right.
Let me out of this hellscape where I'm a lieutenant on the USS Enterprise
Rob: green.
Kevin: in green uniform, he very quickly gives up.
But I think it's just cuz they ran out episode
Rob: Yeah.
We've gotta get this thing moving along.
Come
Kevin: Yeah.
But um, yeah, watching Picard's Academy days and watching him
learn to appreciate his younger hotheaded self, uh, is a delight.
All of the characters in these flashbacks are wearing your favorite uniform, Rob.
The Monster Maroon.
Uh, there is, um, uh, Picard's best friend, um, in one scene that
stood out to me on this watch.
He actually buttons it closed on camera and the, you know, the kind
of magnetic zippers that, that are meant to like, hold it together.
They don't quite line kind of hangs a little awkwardly, but it feels so
much more real than the, the, uh, you know, the upgraded Monster Maroon
that we saw in Strange New Worlds this Uh, it was very satisfying an
entire episode of, of Monster Maroons.
Rob: Good to have him back.
We love the Monster Maroons.
Kevin: Yeah.
All right.
Let's head into Deep Space Nine.
I, I am hoping you have, uh, pulled one of the episode, like
the remaining episode that's on my
Rob: I, I, I assume I will, we'll get to it because it's later on
down the track, but we're going into season two, episode eight with one
of my favorite episodes of all time.
It's, it's incredible episodes, it's Necessary Evil.
Kevin: This is it.
This is the one I
Rob: This the one you picked.
Kevin: Ah, it's so good, isn't
Rob: j uh, rewatching it.
Today was like the first time in a couple of years, and I
just went Oh, it, I mean, you
Kevin: I watched it this morning and I was like, ah, I forgot Deep
Space Nine was ever this Like it's three kinds of good in one
Rob: It works on so many levels, and there's stuff about Odo
that they haven't brought.
They didn't do much of is him as an investigator and him as a non-humanoid
being able to pick all the, it's very much him as Sherlock Holmes, really.
And I, they could have done a procedural series of just Constable Odo.
It's one of our earlier episodes of seeing, um, Deep Space
Nine when it was Terok Nor.
So the lighting's different.
The feel different.
It's darker, it's colder, it's more harsh with the lights.
Um, the Cardassians are just fat with corruption and power and,
um, that's a metaphorical fat.
I'm doing that in inverted commas.
And you see how tough it was for the Bajorans and how they were treated
and Odo's perception within that.
I wrote down a couple of lines because it's just, beautifully
played by René Auberjonois.
I mean, just giving him an episode just to himself.
You just go and here you go.
You have 30 years of experience at that point.
As a stage, screen actor, let him go.
He says in voiceover In this job, there is no unfinished business.
Kevin: This is a noir episode because the conceit is that Sisko has forced
him to start keeping a security and his first security log is Sisko, is
forcing me to make this security log.
Humans are so stupid, everything's under control, end of log,
Rob: Yeah.
The part where he goes, they need to remember everything.
I've got it all in my head.
fine.
Everything's under control.
Kevin: But very quickly he starts to indulge himself as he
gets sucked into this mystery.
And he uses his log to tell the, the gritty, the gritty
inner monologue of investigator.
Rob: And it's just like, but there's great comedy in there as well.
So when you flash back into regular time, the fact that Quark is on death's door
and, uh, Rom is accused of doing it, and Rom doesn't have that much sorrow for
the fact that, oh, I can have the bar?
It's mine now?
Kevin: You're not, you're not keeping him alive by artificial means, Quark wouldn't
Rob: No.
And just, and right near the end, it's almost at the point of cheesy.
So Quark is almost killed again for the second time.
Rom saves him by screaming in his usual high pitch squeal,
Odo comes and saves him.
He's still screaming.
He goes, it's all over.
It's all over Rom.
Kevin: Saved your brother's You're a hero.
Rob: screams again cuz his brother's alive.
And the camera pans down to an unconscious Quark, and his lifeless
face just curls up into a smile.
Um, so that is in this episode when you've got
Kevin: I know.
With everything else going on, this is a great Quark and Rom
This Ferengi double act comic duo.
They are the clowns of the episode, and it is,
Oh, young Quark during the He's like, Quark at 11, and I
Rob: Oh.
That just the beautiful moment we goes, you know, you wanna drink?
He goes, I don't drink.
Okay, you want a soft drink,
Kevin: Yeah.
pulls out the little drink with sparkly
Rob: And then later on he goes, how about companionship?
And you go, oh.
But the heart of this episode is, and it's always my favorite relationship within the
whole Star Trek series is Odo and Kira.
Kevin: A foundational story between Odo and Kira.
This is like some of the earliest of them admitting to each other
that their relationship is special, ages before it becomes romantic, but
Rob: that's the type of stuff we were crying out for.
Cause I kind of think at this point there's elements of you kind of sense
Kevin: Yeah
Rob: There's that vibe of Odo.
And I think it's even, even clearer, like, cuz Kira's moving from,
you know, she, she gets around.
She's very much the Chakotay of Deep Space Nine.
And you always see that defeated air to Odo.
But this is a really powerful one of, how they actually first met.
And you talk about noir.
The first time they meet, he sits down and tries to pull a detective
from a noir lime, what's a pretty girl like you eating alone?
Beautiful.
Uh, and
Kevin: uh, she calls him Constable for the first time in that Uh,
the very last line is Kira saying Everyone has to choose sides, And
I've, I was like, wait, was that it?
Was that the first time someone said Constable to him?
And I re-watched the scene and yes.
He doesn't introduce himself by name or by title.
She gives him that moment.
Rob: I hadn't forgotten, but it was good to be, My memory refreshed that
he got his creation from Gul Dukat.
So much good comes out of evil.
And the final scene, I mean, it's written by, uh, Peter Allen Fields, who, uh,
is an incredible writer and he will be showing up again in my next episode.
Incredible writer.
Kevin: A twisty mystery.
The twist at the end for me is really I, I think I was expecting, like,
all through this, I was enjoying the journey, but I just naively assumed the
actual mystery would be uninteresting.
Like I thought, you know, we know who the guilty party is, it's obvious,
and then they, they, they pull a fast one on us and it is so much richer
Rob: and it's incredible going back and watching it because
I hadn't seen for a while.
And when, um, Odo says the line, you're not a very good liar.
And I'm there going, hang on, this is what, and then at the end, the twist goes,
of course she's, she's the best liar.
She's, been working this rebellion for years.
Um, and that final, it's it's perfect nineties TV type stuff where yeah, it,
it's what I grew up with in the nineties with watching all those type of shows and,
you know, Star Trek Deep Space Nine did it just like all the other shows at that
time that were at the top of their game.
That final scene with the two characters.
It's just two characters talking and how their relationship has changed
because of the events that happened.
For her to reveal, you know, because you're so special to me and your
opinion's so important to me.
And do you think you can ever trust me again?
And just that final shot, which is so nineties of just the two of them
Kevin: Unresolved.
Rob: it's a profile shot, and you've got Kira just desperately looking at him and
Odo resting up against his chair and his head down and it just fades to, you know,
the producer credits and you just go, ah,
Kevin: So good.
Rob: such good episode.
And just like in his outfit as well.
It's so much a better outfit with a high collar.
And it's all like, like, it feels like it's cold in Terok Nor.
Kevin: The color scheme, like it's all grays and blues and cold.
Rob: And harsh backlight.
Lots of backlight, which
Kevin: A lot of burlap on the wall for some reason.
Rob: Yes, it's, it's, it's a Cardassian
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: yeah.
Um, I just love it.
It's such a beautiful episode.
Kevin: All I remembered about this episode was that there was an episode
set on Terok Nor during the occupation, and I was like, oh, I'll go find that.
Uh, I did not remember anything else about this episode, so it was a delight to
Rob: Yeah.
This is, yeah, this is one that always stuck in my head.
I just, every time I, as soon as we said flashback and said, I've gotta find it.
Um, and yeah, it's René Auberjonois in top form.
It's Nana Visitor in top form.
Uh, the others sort of like in the background.
So you don't have, you don't have Sisko or Dax or that in it much.
Um, and you know, you've got Gul Dukat in top form.
So Mark's in top form, Max is in top form as Rom.
It's, you know, Armin Shimerman shows that shade of when he's dark, you know,
dark Quark and when he's lightened up.
So yeah, it's, it's an incredible episode.
Necessary Evil, season two, episode eight.
Uh, if you haven't seen it, go watch it.
It's, uh,
Kevin: The fact that that's a season two episode and my episodes of TNG were
season five and six is a testament to just how quickly DS9 found its confidence.
Rob: A lot of people say, oh, it didn't find its feet until season four.
Going, no, no, no.
It was hitting some really impressive, uh, strides in, in the early seasons.
Kevin: Where's our last stop in Deep Space
Rob: Our last stop in Deep Space Nine history is one of the greatest
star Trek episodes of all time.
It is, In the Pale Moonlight.
Kevin: Oh, okay.
I don't remember this one being a flashback.
Talk me
Rob: Yeah.
Again, written by Peter Allen Fields.
Well done, you, sir.
It is the great, the incredible, uh, Avery Brooks looking down the barrel of
the camera, recording his diary entry.
Um, and he's talking directly to us about what he has done in the last two weeks.
He's forgotten how, how much time has passed in such a
short window of opportunity.
And it's about the Dominion War has been slogging on for months.
Uh, every day or every week, he has to put up the names of the casualties
and he has to watch every Thursday he has to go and watch the people, you
know, he knows, goes and try and find, uh, people they know or people they,
whether their names are on the board.
And he comes up with a bold plan because the main source of contention is that
the Romulans have not entered the war.
They have signed a treaty of no involvement with the Dominion.
Uh, Betazed is taken over, invaded in 10 hours.
Kevin: Offscreen.
It is, it is brutal that they invade Betazed offscreen
leave it to your imagination.
Rob: And other planets are at risk.
Vulcan, Alpha Centauri, all that type of stuff.
As always, when you want something dastardly done, you turn to a tailor.
Uh, and so of course it's one of the best episodes of Deep Space Nine and
one of the best episodes of Star Trek because you have Andrew Robinson as
Garak front and center, um, as the devil in your ear and giving you not what
you want, but definitely what you need.
Kevin: Whether you, whether you are prepared to ask for it
Rob: Yeah.
And so, uh, they go down the slippery slope of how can they convince, uh,
or cheat or lie, hoodwink the Romulans into entering the Dominion War.
And so it's compromise after compromise after compromise that Sisko has to do.
And this is the fall of Sisko as the hopeful diplomat into, uh,
the, you know, the man behind the machinations of, uh, the Dominion War.
So it's an incredible episode of, uh, Garak there, pushing him
further to go farther than he would ever want to go before.
And, um, a beautiful resolution at the end where he just goes, you.
I, I would do it all again.
And it's all in flashback.
So as he is talking to the camera, to the recording, he
goes, there's voiceover as well.
And it goes back to the two weeks of him seeing the compromises
that he makes, seeing the high body count in this episode.
Um, uh, this is like in the heart of Dominion War, season six, episode 19.
Kevin: Yeah.
It's very much that sort of, um, narrated structure that we saw
with Odo in the previous episode as well, so I'm not surprised that
it's the same writer obviously, like comfortable with that, that narrated
storytelling in a Um, yeah, it's
Rob: Yeah.
And you see how it really is a reveal of Sisko as a character.
Kevin: It reveals the inner world of the character in a way you don't normally
Rob: I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole episode we can do on Star
Trek's connection to Shakespeare.
I mean, Nimoy with his writing in the Star Trek movies in Star Trek,
his involvement with the writing of the Star Trek movies was always
putting Shakespeare front and center.
You see it in Star Trek II.
You see it in Star Trek VI even more so.
You see it in Star Trek IV.
He just brings in Shakespeare and that has stayed.
It has lingered with Star Trek.
And this is very much, um, a soliloquy, an hour long soliloquy by, Sisko.
He doesn't confide in his friends or his, um, people.
He confides in the audience.
The perfect example of a Shakespearean soliloquy.
He even says that.
He said, I can't even tell.
I can't tell anybody.
Not even Dax, my oldest friend.
Kevin: In the same way that something like Best of Both Worlds that we talked about
recently pioneered the cliffhanger season finale format, I feel like this was an
early example of, of a story structure that has definitely become cliche and
overdone in TV, which is the cold open that is like, I bet you're wondering
how things got this let's rewind.
Like 24 hours earlier, and we get to see the whole story up until, up until the
climax that we have already gotten to see a glimpse of at the start of the episode.
This, I think though, the introduction of the narration and the fact that you
get to see, you get to hear the character reflecting on their own actions, their
own choices, their own compromises, uh, is what enriches it beyond the
lazy flashback, I'll say, in inverted
Rob: There, there's so much so, you, the flashback is the evidence
and it's, it's almost, well, it is.
It's Sisko pleading his case, not only to us the audience, but to himself.
There are moments where he stops almost addressing the audience and it's more
to himself defending himself and his actions going, you know, it was another
Thursday, I don't want a another list, and another list and another list.
People are dying and he says, planets are dying.
And, you know, um, and that's his arguing with his own inner demons.
It's beautiful.
And then to have a final confrontation when, uh, Garak has gone the steps
that Sisko didn't want to admit that he was willing to go to.
There's an incredible confrontation with a bloodied up, uh, Garak just
there going, this is everything.
And if we are sacrificing, two people and a criminal to save thousands,
millions of lives, I would do it again.
And Sisko admits that as well.
And there's the often repeating a gif and meme going around of Sisko
raising his glass to the camera right down the barrel of the camera.
Kevin: I can live with
Rob: yeah.
Um, it's, it, it's a great way of seeing, not only is the flashback finding out more
about the character, but you see in that 45 minute episode, you see Sisko change.
Kevin: Yeah.
Oh, this one.
It would not have occurred to me because it is not a literal, um, like
trip into years, years and decades past of a, of a character's origin.
But you're absolutely right.
That is a, it is a flashback that reveals character in a way that we've never
Rob: So, yeah.
Um, In the Pale Moonlight
Kevin: He deletes his log at the end
Rob: of course he frigging does.
Of course he does.
As soon as he starts going, this is my personal log I'm
going, this is not gonna stay.
No.
Kevin: between him and the audience.
It's so him and the
Rob: it's a beautiful, beautiful episode and I highly recommend it.
I would put it in one of the top 10 episodes of Star Trek of all
time and in the top five Deep Space Nine episodes, easily.
Kevin: Well, thank you.
Uh, some great flashbacks.
I have to admit, when I went looking, the ones that we've had are super
memorable and great episodes, but not quite as many as I was expecting to
like, I think in some ways it, it's the easiest way to introduce a character
that rather than revealing through story, they reveal by telling a origin story.
It's just, it is not a pattern that Star Trek has leaned
on as often as I thought it
Rob: It's definitely a trait that's used a lot in, um, genre based television of
that nineties era and early noughties.
It's surprisingly not as many in Star Trek as, uh, but we found enough.
Kevin: Yeah, we sure
Rob: Yeah.
So, um, uh, it's good to, uh, chinwag again.
We're, we're, we are getting close the end of Prodigy
Kevin: We sure are.
It's, it's, uh, we're running short of episodes in Prodigy.
I think I will be, yeah.
Four left.
And, it will, not have outstayed its welcome, I predict.
This is feeling like a very well-paced season, and it will leave me wanting more.
Rob: I am.
Yeah, I'm quite happy that the members of the Protostar have,
uh, found their way into my heart.