[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. So Mr. Hammond, we've had a chat you've actually, I've been quite impacted by a story that you told me this week. So it involves two push bikes and a motorbike that went missing from your house.

[00:00:31] Dan: Okay. So this was a few weeks ago. We woke up to a card through the door saying your motorbike was stolen. We found it and it's in this yard. But the main story is around these, around our two mountain bikes, which were nicked. To cut a long story short, it turned out that they were found that night in the back of a car being driven, erratically by someone who is known to 

[00:00:50] Pia: not trying to ride the bikes in the 

[00:00:52] Dan: I don't think I, I I'm trying to visualize this 

[00:00:54] Pia: That would be 

[00:00:55] Dan: Uh, maybe what they were doing was driving along. Look, they couldn't resist looking over their shoulder at my bike and just, they were just thinking How gorgeous. Maybe that was it. I'm that's my theory. Anyway. So they were arrested, the car was taken into the pound and we B, then we've discovered they found our bikes and then they lost them again. Turns out that the bikes remained in the back of the car in the pound, and then they returned them to the criminal fraternity. So they actually returned the car and left the bikes in it. And of course they've vanished into the ether, but they literally, these stolen goods were returned carefully and documented to the thieves by the police. So not great.

[00:01:37] Pia: Not great at all. And. It's one of those things that could be a trigger and really raise the blood pressure here. And you feel like you've just gotta fire one over the bows, straight to the two people who then had to tell you, so two people. So what 

[00:01:52] Dan: they came two people came round. Well, I suppose, you know, sign, I suppose the sign of the times is a female police officer came round with a male police officer. She was the community liaison or something. I'm not sure, but she was gonna do the news. It was pretty clear that his job was to protect And you know, I think they have to go around having some pretty tough conversations, but it was yeah, so they came and perched on the sofa in a very polite way and they were

[00:02:17] Pia: did you offer them tea and biscuits?

[00:02:19] Dan: Course, of course, Of course they declined politely, but all hospitals, all hos hospitality was laid on, but and they were just so apologetic and they, she said that we've got apologize on part of the police, blah, blah, blah, boom. And but they were really nervous about the response really nervous and and I think they get some pretty bad reactions. 

[00:02:40] Pia: And I mean, if you think about it, you know, you think your prized Bounds have been stolen by criminals. And then given back to the CRI criminals twice.

[00:02:50] Dan: they were so embarrassed. They were embarrassed and ashamed. 

[00:02:53] Pia: And that is a leadership moment though. This is the bit that struck me was in that moment, they thought you would erupt, but what did you do? 

[00:03:01] Dan: Well, halfway through the conversation, I had to just say, look, I've gotta say something because they were so tense there, they would look so nervous and actually so sad. And and I said, look, here's my thinking. I know this is political, but I think. I think you've been underfunded and I think you've got poor it systems and your under demand. And what happens is that mistakes are made because of that. And you poor people are on the front line facing the public, and it's not your fault. So please stop apologizing. Let's move on to a solution. 

[00:03:30] Pia: And what, and what was their response?

[00:03:32] Dan: you see all their, should their shoulders drop. They nearly fell off the sofa, but we ended up having a lovely conversation. And the male policeman said it was so sweet. He said a thing is it breaks my heart because I look at the books on your bookshelves. I know you're into outdoors and I am, and it just, this just breaks my heart. It was so such a love. It ended up being a lovely conversation, but they needed to know. They were taking the Brun of it, but it's nothing to do with them. 

[00:03:55] Pia: I was so touched by it because that was a real, we, not me moment, you know, it, 99 out of a hundred of us might have lost, lost our temper and made someone pay and it's ridiculous, but it is this division. It's them and us. It's the blame it's and you know, it was just, I, I was so inspired by it. I've been telling my kids, oh, we've had a Dan Hammond moment and recounting the story. Because you did have to think you had to rewire the brain to not blame. and that, that sets a completely different atmosphere, sets a different culture. You know, this is what we're gonna talk about with our guest, Steve Hunt, you know, you yeah. In those pressurized situations, and it's the way you behave is absolutely critical to creating that type of culture. And I'm sure those. Those police people will be, you know, doing whatever they can. It'll come back round in some ways. But yeah, I think it's I think in all this shameful leadership around us and it's looking pretty awful in the UK, you know, just a small little act, you know, behavior like this shows a lot. 

[00:05:19] Dan: well, thank you. I really appreciate it. And and I think you're right. Yes, we are currently. Yeah, we're about to see our prime minister resign here in the UK and without going into it. I think that 

[00:05:30] Pia: out again.

[00:05:31] Dan: things are mistaken for leadership that are not right now? So I think I'm, it's really great moment to have Steve on the show because I think people can listen to this and just be reminded of what, you know, a thoughtful leader is capable of in connecting humans. So let's go and let's go and hear Steve now. 

[00:05:51] Pia: And a huge warm welcome to you, Steve. Lovely to have you on the show.

[00:05:56] Stephen: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I've been a big fan of the show for a long time. So I'm honored that you've invited me.

[00:06:02] Pia: Yeah, really wonderful to do that now. We're going to find out a little bit more about you, but I'm gonna hand you straight into the lions den, cuz Dan is shuffling the cards, so let's get straight to it. Before we start hearing more about you.

[00:06:18] Dan: Excellent. So I'm gonna choose just exactly. These are conversation starter cards, so we can use it to start a conversation. So I'm gonna choose one at random. And here it is. Oh, the person who would play me in the film of my life is.

[00:06:33] Stephen: Sounds like a conversation stopper, mate. 

[00:06:35] Pia: Mickey mouse.

[00:06:38] Stephen: Oh, gosh, who would play me? I mean, gee, you have to think about, you know, what age of me are we talking about? But assuming I've lived a full life and you're just kind of playing the middle bit

[00:06:48] Pia: The Benjamin button version.

[00:06:50] Stephen: maybe Robert Downey Jr. 

[00:06:52] Dan: Yeah. Good call.

[00:06:54] Stephen: I dunno whether that is that egotistical of me to say 

[00:06:56] Dan: No, you've got, you've got a name, a star. No, I love it. That's a really good call, actually. I think that's that's pretty accurate. So, yeah, that would be good. Yeah. It's got a lot of got, so talk about a little bit though, just diving into that. Obviously I think there's a look similar, to be honest, but what else about Robert Danny Jr. makes you think he'd be a good uh, he'd be the part?

[00:07:14] Stephen: Um, I, I just think, you know, he's a very heart on the sleeve kind of guy, like even in many of the characters that he plays he may be Iron Man and in an incredible powerful leadership position, but it. Still vulnerable to everybody around him and and funny and quirky and letting it all hang out. And I suppose that's, you know, kind of what I see of him. He's also, he's had a past that, you know, is a little bit all over the place and interesting past for that way. I've probably had a similar one, so, but kind of come good at the end. And so I could see alignments in. The roles and the personal life there. But but yeah, I just think he's got that ability to kind of, to bring forward a you know, a very strong leader with lots of vulnerability and that's probably the feedback I get the workplace about my style so I think that's why I chose him.

[00:08:04] Pia: And that's a good segue, cuz I, I met you probably a couple of years ago now and through a mutual contact that we both know who. You asked the question, can you gimme the low down on Steve? And just the reply was, oh, he's just such a lovely man. So, and that was like, it was, you know, without you having to pay it, she gave you a glowing reference. And you are now currently the co-founder and the COO of Music Health. And you are launching an app Vera, um, for dementia. 

[00:08:37] Stephen: right. 

[00:08:38] Pia: Ooh. So just give us a bit of a rundown. Tell us a little bit about how you've got here, who you are. Give us a little troll into the past bit of the Robert Danny murky past. Give us a bit of that and how you got to 

[00:08:52] Stephen: Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll give you the quick rundown of the history and then I might spend a bit of time on where we're at now, cuz it's probably more interesting, but um, but uh, I, I grew up in Sydney and have always loved music and I've played in bands. I actually toured the UK in my early twenties, which is probably that rough part of my life. But I um, I wasn't too keen on. On corporate life. In fact, I was avoiding it and I found myself, you know, running an art festival. I was always still keen on leadership and fascinated by it. And having my father who was an MBA professor at a business school here in Sydney, you know, had always sort of instilled in me the um, the ambition to lead and and he said, you know, it doesn't really matter what it is you do, but you just become a managing director as quickly as you can, and then, and then move that to, to be the managing director as something that you really like. That was kind of his advice. And I, I, more or less took it. And but I started out trying to be the managing director of things I loved and found that it was very difficult to make it work. I was in the arts, I was in music. I was in theater in acting. 

[00:09:56] And then. I met my wife. And and I think at the time I'd started my first company, it was a not for profit. And it was very idealistic. We were focused on HIV aids education and so it was nothing technical at all, but we were um, we were trying to challenge the fact that in Australia, at least when you were growing up and we started to talk about sex education, it was very taboo and people would talk about it in very limited words and in very limited circumstances. And in fact, it wouldn't be uncommon for you to get through high school with probably just one lesson about what a condom is. And um, and we challenged that and we said, you've just gotta talk about it. And you've just gotta say. Say it, how it is. You've gotta talk about drugs and needles, and all the things that are real and prepare people to go out into their adult life. And you know, all through the guise of HIV aids prevention. That was. Very successful. It still runs today. But I was not making money from that.

[00:10:57] And so to make money, I was running an art festival and it was a chalk art festival in Sydney called chalk the walk. And and it was really fun. I loved it. But again, not making a huge amount of money. I didn't particularly care. But then I met my wife and she was in uh, one of Australia's top two law firms and she was skyrocketing in her career. And we fell in love and, you know, the conversation started to get around to, well, you know, we likely to stay together for a long time and what's happening with your career? You know, and and I started to, she didn't put too much pressure on it, but I felt a bit inadequate and I sort of looked around at my friends and I remember asking one in particular. I was like, you know what? I kind of feel like I should sell out and just do. Just give it a decade, selling out and doing what my dad said and becoming a managing director of something and just get some cash, get a mortgage, and then I'm done. I'm back to the arts. You know, that was kind of this very deliberate intention. And I said to him, but what would I do? Like, what are you gonna do for 10 years when you don't really care? Like what, where do you go to just have a fast tracked career and make some quick cash? And the answer ended up becoming internet advertising. 

[00:12:12] And so this was um, yeah, this was 2006. So the dawn of it really. And this friend said to me, look they're throwing money at people cuz no one knows what they're talking about. The buyers, the sellers. No, one's got any clue. We're all working it out as we go. It's a great little community, but it's growing like crazy and you know, we reckon the internet will be pretty big. And this was actually at the time when Rupert Murdoch at news was still saying, nah, it's a fad. And Fairfax had run away and built a great and successful digital division. So I, I ended up talking my way into the first news limited digital team. And we were chasing down Fairfax after Rupert had made the decision that perhaps that was not the right thing to do. And he'd bought MySpace and a few other big acquisitions. And, And I, I loved it. I um, surprised myself for the first six months. I lied to my friends. I told them I was in content distribution instead of advertising. I was kinda ashamed But I was selling ads. I was slinging digital ads that annoy everybody. But my friend was right. Like my customers didn't really know what they were doing. I didn't know what I was doing. And we still worked it out. We built this beautiful community of people that I'm still great friends with today and, 

[00:13:30] and that was a very quick career. I got, I got to progress fast as it grew, and I quickly made my way up to that leadership position. And, but yeah, I took a year out after I got married. She finally agreed to marry me after that. And uh and we, we just traveled South America. So that was awesome. We took a year and we came back and got on the doll and made some of our taxes back. And then um, and then I found my way into my first. Proper Startup. And it was Australia's first video ad network.

[00:13:59] Well it was an ad network at the time, but when I came in there we created the video side of the business and I ran it. And the idea there was that TV advertising had to move to the internet. This is by YouTube, wasn't owned by Google at this time. So this is really early and um, and I was, I was basically in there as an experiment to see if I could build a revenue stream out of convincing TV advertisers to stick their ads on the internet. And of course we managed to do that and it grew like crazy. But it was a very manual business and like most ad businesses at the time, not a lot of technology being used. But I learned a lot about the pace that you need to work out in a startup and the dedication required and the culture required. And then I took that and started my own company. 

[00:14:44] And we were a tech company. I licensed The best technology I could find out of Silicon valley. And I brought it into Australia. 

[00:14:51] It was company called TubeMogul and we um, we were the market leader within nine months. We absolutely steamrolled the market with the technology approach and then I expanded it into Singapore, China, Japan, and ran APAC before we were trying to get that business public on NASDAQ. And the guys in the us were getting tapped by the board and going, Hey, Australia seems to be doing more money than New York, which is really, really hard for our story. What's going on. And so I got the tap by the CEO who said, would you like to move to New York? And I said um, actually, yeah, I kind of wouldn't mind. But um, but I have to be humble and honest here, the reason we're doing so well, isn't actually so much me. I'm, I'm a facilitator. But the people who are actually innovating and killing it are my clients. And they are the ones who are actually they're the, in the advertising agencies. And they are the ones who are convincing these big TV advertisers that they should pull their money onto the internet in this way and justifying it.

[00:15:52] And so they said, that's great. Hire them too and come over. so, so, so that we um, we put some of my customers into the product team In San Francisco, I moved to New York and we got the business public not long after. And then I was asked to move very quickly after um, that got sorted out in to, to go to the west coast and live in LA and run the west coast of the us. And so that was um, that was a real big change at the time I was having lots of kids. So in this journey, my wife and I had our first kid, when I started with tube Molefi in Australia. Second one born in New York, about four weeks after we arrived. Third one we had in Los Angeles. So we were just kind of breeding as we went.

[00:16:39] Dan: Just dropping across the, but,

[00:16:41] Stephen: Yeah, it was hard. And um, but uh, but I, I was responsible for um, working with some of my sales people and the senior guys, and we sold the technology to Adobe and and Adobe subsequently ended up buying the whole company for a bit over half a billion dollars. And so, so we had an amazing ride with tube Molefi and a great exit. And. We got to stay around with Adobe and went through the integration, which was amazing experience. But um, after six months or so I, I left and I came home to Australia and I had said to my wife, well, that's my 10 years. I am done, uh, so I am now ready to go and focus back on my passions and my passion's music. So I'm going back towards music.

[00:17:25] Dan: Sorry, just before you tell that story, just think about those 10 years. What was that actually like for you? Because you are very conscious. I mean, I certainly a lot of people just stay on rails and they don't realize they're on a different track. They wanna be on and see that track over there. I'm, I'm certainly one of those in a few times in my life. But you are very conscious of it. What was that like for you to feel like you were just borrowing time and how did that impact how you connected in that world, which is your sort of second best?

[00:17:54] Stephen: Well, you know what the irony of it is? I think because I'd always intended it to be short, I gave it everything. It was, It was a race to me, a race to see how far I could get. And, and I actually loved it. I loved every minute of it advertising despite maybe not fulfilling you in your heart so much is incredibly fun. you have an expense account to go and eat at the best restaurants and drink the best drinks. And if you're up for getting drunk every night and taking your clients out who are always really fun too you, if you're a social person it's a dream. You are literally just having the best time, but it also takes its toll on you physically and mentally. And I think it's something where I was, I've really enjoyed it and I loved every minute, but I'm kind of glad I got out when I did too. I don't, I don't think I could have done another decade at the um, and sustained it. And in fact, I'd seen several of my friends fall off the perch and some have actually died. Um, You know, one in a Vegas hotel room, sadly. Because they lived the life a little bit too hard. So there are dangers in perils. But yeah, to be honest I went as hard as I could. and I loved every minute of it and I don't regret a minute of it either. I learned so much, I was trained so well, got exposed to incredible leaders and um, and met lifelong friends.

[00:19:14] However, you know, I, I was very conscious when it was time to end. My career there and just focus on something that really fulfilled me inside, and, and, and not chase money anymore, which um, I guess I'm of the firm belief that money will follow success anyway, eventually. And and hopefully it will, but um, but I certainly, I don't think, you know, in all honesty, I don't think I've reached that financial height in an annual income. Since I left that industry. I've really taken a big hit to go and follow my passions but I don't particularly care. It's not what I, I really care about at the moment. But yeah, I left there and I spent three years at Universal Music Group as their managing director for emerging tech media and content, which was kind of an interesting bridge role because it was taking what I'd done, but doing it in the subject, matter of what I really was passionate about. and I really loved that. I got to learn a lot.

[00:20:04] And that was, that was where this idea started to be born because I met my co-founder and as part of doing that job at Universal, I was engaging with all the local Startup and the founders in Australia who were doing interesting things in music and Nick who I met was one of the world's leaders in applying neural networks or AI, depending on what you wanna call it to audio. And he was just this brilliant guy kind of working very much on his own with a team of people offshore and we just hit it off. And I was trying to do my best to try to help him with different ideas and bouncing things around. And one day he came to me and said, Have you ever seen what music does to someone with dementia? And I said, no, I can't say I have. He said, go watch this movie. It's called a live inside. And so I went home and I watched this film and um, it won a sun Sundance award in 2014. It's a great film. And I was blown away. I was, I was in tears and got my wife to watch it with me. And, And I just knew, I was like, this is, this is what I've gotta do next. This is my calling. This is the culmination of everything. But it didn't happen immediately. Nick had his job. I had my job, we just kind of had that idea sitting there and thought it was something, a problem we could solve was deploying the impact that music has on people with dementia at some sort of scale.

[00:21:25] And so it wasn't until I'd left and I started Australia's first startup incubator for music startup. It's called the AIM iHub. Still runs today as well. And I invited Nick to join as one of the startups for his other company. And we very quickly realized that this dementia idea was actually taking steam and he'd won an award from Dementia Australia to get some research funding and he'd built a prototype and everything was pointing in the right direction. And so I just got to a point where I said, all right, well, if you want to go for it, I'll be a co-founder, I'll invest my own cash, and I'll join you and we'll do this together every step of the way. And so, so we did that November. 2020, roughly the company was formed. And then it took us a while to kind of, you know, get all the bits and pieces in place. 

[00:22:11] But um, so we were born in a pandemic and we weren't able to hire people until we started to get a product near ready for market. And it's taken a long time. We had the license music, which takes a long time, is very expensive and raised money, which is also, you know, very expensive and if I'm consuming, it is, it is. but yeah, now we're live with a tool called Vera it's our first product and Vera helps people. It actually is designed for the carers of people with dementia, and it helps the carers to find the right music that will stimulate their brain and trigger long term memories from their past. And so, and in doing that. It actually creates a chain reaction in their brain and can stimulate lots of other faculties, like their ability to move, to speak, to eat and, and can also help if they're experiencing confusion, which can lead to aggression and onto violence that can actually start to intervene into that negative downward trend of emotion and behavior.

[00:23:11] So. So it's actually a very powerful tool and obviously something that's just simple and noninvasive and quite affordable. So, so our mission now is to deploy that far and wide. And we often like to say that, you know, if you look at Headspace and Calm and see what they did for meditation, that's what we wanna do for music as a therapy and make it affordable, universally available and understood.

[00:23:35] Pia: That's a huge mission. And you know, and, and amazing. And, and the, you know, just the. The journey and the speed of your journey in a short period of time is, is um, hugely impressive. What's you built these businesses from the ground up. What's kind of the critical ingredients for culture that helps to build the teams around you and build a success?

[00:23:56] Stephen: Yeah, I think there's, I mean, I've learned a lot over the years being, I mean, you always learned from your leaders. Right. And and I think I've been very fortunate whether it was at News or those other startups to have incredible role models who. I'd love to say, like taught me generally 99% good stuff, but I also was very careful to pick out the 1% of things that I really disagreed with and learned from that too. And I've been able to kind of, as I've gone forward, test these assumptions and, and build cultures. And I, I really am kind of humble about that. I think it's an incredible responsibility and an honor to be at the start of a culture and to try to prescribe it. Now of course, once a culture gets going it's becomes its own thing, and you can just hope that the guardrails you've set, steer it in the right direction. And of course you are the seed, but you can never really prescribe a culture. You can, You can just kind. Give it your best guard rails. 

[00:24:52] But i've learned a lot about it. And I think one thing that you might find really interesting, particularly if you're an executive is talking about values, because values became popular probably when I started my career corporately and at News, maybe what's that 15 years ago they were on the wall. Maybe they were spoken to a bit. I've actually found when I went to Universal, they didn't talk about them at all. I found that kind of interesting in the multinational except when you were hired but the idea of values to me is they're kind of meaningless, um, I've learnt I found in Tube Mogul, we had behaviors and I found behaviors were really powerful because you could see if someone was behaving in a certain way. And of course, when you have enough people behaving in a similar way, that can become a value. so I thought that was really interesting, but when I had the privilege to set up this company and rethink it all again, I actually went a step further in reverse and we operate with practices. 

[00:25:50] And the idea with us is that we, we integrate these practices into the day to day. So I'll give you an example. You've got Kim Scott's radical candor is a practice. We practice radical candor. And when we show everyone that video of hers on YouTube, when they are inducted into the team, so they understand what it means and how to use radical candor in the right way. But we practice it. And so in one-on-ones we actually. There's a chart that you can do from Kim Scott where you can place yourself and say whether you were actually delivering, you know, the news with radical candor. So after your one-on-one, you both have to stick yourselves on the chart as to where you felt the conversation ended up. That's how we finish a one-on-one. But we've also found that in our culture and we just did our quarterly review the other day we had Often people will deliver a compliment sandwich in a way by saying Hey, I would just love to offer a little bit of radical candor about this. And then you everyone's like, Ooh, here it comes. But it gives them that permission to speak freely and to say what they really feel. And I think without making that a practice in those one-on-ones that every single person, whether the intern or the CEO does, we wouldn't have that open discussion.

[00:27:05] And, you know, even in our recent quarterly, there was one guy who's our senior engineer was called out to his face about a few things. And the CEO was also spoken about very openly about a few things and. Both owned it, accepted it and took it on and constructively worked through it. So, and that's the kind of culture that I'm really excited about in the current team, but yeah, but there are six practices, that's one.

[00:27:28] And one of, one of them is also Squadify actually we, it falls in teamwork that we practice Squadify and so, and Squadify we do. On a quarterly basis, but if we're going through hyper change, we'll do it monthly as well. And that brings our team together. It's actually the foundation of how we glue our people together. So, so that's another practice in itself. But of course, if you're practicing something, they are behaviors. And if everybody is now behaving in the same way, you have values. But to me, it's taken that learning to realize that the values on the wall don't really mean enough and the behaviors are only some people doing them because, and they're the ones who get the rewards for, oh, he's the, you know, radical candor candidate of the, of the quarter he's living that behavior or that value. But that's great. That's one person, but what about everybody else who isn't? And so with practices, we all do it and it's consistent. And so that's been a really big learning for me and um, something that I'm incredibly excited about.

[00:28:29] And the last piece to it is. Being super conscious about the seeds. So the first 10 people you hire are basically gonna set the culture for a thousand people. And so you really have to be conscious about who those people are, what they bring and how they're gonna nurture that culture. But yet it's incredibly important to me. And as I said I just feel so responsible and accountable to hold that duty and to take care of that duty of making sure that we get it off on the right foot, that we instill it into those 10 people. And then from there it's kind of it's, this is not correct, but it's kind of outta my control, but of course I'll steer it, but I also almost hand over the reins a little then and go, okay, I can't prescribe a culture. This is what we've got. Now. We need to work with it and grow, and succeed as a team.

[00:29:19] Dan: It's fascinating. What you're saying about practices really that's hit home for me, because if I think about the even well implemented values, they tend to be a sort of principle with bullet points saying how you should behave. So actually you've, you sort of cut out in the middle man and gone and practices has this lovely overtone of consistency, doesn't it? I, I, I really like that. This is something practice. It's pretty powerful that Steve, I think something, anyone could pick up quite quickly.

[00:29:47] Pia: Another practice, steve is so which you and I have talked about quite a bit over the last year is um, is being T total. So your wild Robert Downey junior days have, have become a little bit yeah.

[00:30:02] Dan: Much like

[00:30:04] Pia: yeah, exactly. So, but interesting. I think it's What made you choose it? 

[00:30:08] Stephen: it's a good question, cuz it's, this is a kind of fascinating thing to delve into because. Strikes a little balance. Well, it's not even a balance, actually. It sits in between who I am as an individual and also what I'm trying to do within my team as a culture. So traditionally, my cultures were always, you work hard, you play hard, you are on all the time. You. If you go out and booze with the clients, you stay out your last man, understanding you're getting to bed at two or three, but you better be there at eight in the morning, first person in the door, you know, and I can't tell you how many times I've slept in my office. No joke. And um, And that's obviously not ideal especially when you become a parent. And I started to really get more, I mean, a bit worried about my own health, but a bit more starting to think about the example I was setting for my kids. And, you know, as they start to become more aware and older and, you know, they've just got to the stage where my son's oldest son's 10. So, but this is probably five years ago. I started to make this shift and. And I started to take a month off a year booze and I'd really enjoy it, you know, and then, but I'd also enjoy getting back to it. And then I started doing longer stints and I was over in the us actually after we'd got pregnant with the third child and I'd always wanted to do an Ironman, which is, if you dunno what it is, it's a really dumbo event. It's a, It's a stupidly long triathlon where you swim for. 

[00:31:35] Pia: you've done that as well. Didn't you 

[00:31:36] Dan: I have and it's, and it's a stupidly long event. That's a good way of 

[00:31:43] Stephen: Yeah, it's it was a bucket lister for me, but it was like, you know, you swim 3.8 kilometers, you ride 180 on the bike and then you run a marathon. And and so to do that, I just said to my wife, I'm gonna not drink for the whole time I train, which ended up being the best part of a year. And I lost weight. I got fit. I got healthy. But what I noticed was this was, you know, when we were selling to Adobe that year, I noticed my performance lift at work, I was a better husband. I was a better dad. I was a better friend. I was, but I was killing it at work. I was sharp as attack. I was all over everything and I really liked it. I just, I. I finished that up and kind of went straight back to normal habits and forgot about it for a little while, 

[00:32:26] Pia: About 10 years. 

[00:32:26] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. But it just sat with me. And then as I came up to doing my own business again and this journey, I almost like had said this to myself in my head, but I hadn't really vocalized it to anyone else, but I was like, whenever I'm gonna take on something really hard again, and I need to give it everything, I'm just gonna remove that completely and focus. Because especially in this scenario where I put my own money in, I stopped getting a, you know, a really good wage and it's all chips are on the table, and there's a huge, like chance that all of this could have failed, and, And still could, I think that, like, we're very de-risked now, but there's, it's still by no means safe. And so, but certainly the Startup it's a complete lottery, you know, as to whether your startup will sink or swim. But one thing that I didn't want was to feel like I'd left anything on the table. And so I decided to just go clean and sober and throw everything at it. And also to try to do it in a way where I didn't stay up late all the time and I'd exercised, and I looked after my health. And so I've actually used this whole startup journey to become so much healthier. And Pia and I have spoken about this a lot, but but I went six months, completely dry. And and then let myself go in the holidays. And by the end of it, I didn't want to drink again. I was like, oh, this is not good. And so for this year, I've resolved that I'm sober during the school terms, but in the school holidays, when I'm having a bit of a break, I'm gonna let my hair down a bit. And I'm actually in that mode right now. But I'm finding that I'm I've kind of crossed this chasm where I just have one or two drinks and I'm done, I'm not really interested in it that much. And I could just totally leave it. It's almost more for my friends who are like, oh, you're back. And uh, let's, let's, let's go have one. Yay. But you know, I could really take it or leave it. But you, you sure notice the impact on your sleep when you do get back on the wagon. But again, boy, the um, the output I've been able to deliver in that time has really blown me away and as I was sort of saying, now I'm in this dichotomy because of course the people in my team, we've set a culture where the business doesn't supply alcohol on a regular basis. We do go out and have a good night once a quarter to celebrate our achievements and to socialize and get together. Other than that, it's pretty rare that you would ever have drinks on the company. And so we've instilled a very different culture. And in fact we, we reward things like wellness and, you know, looking at doing Pilates at lunch and walks and things like that. So, so I'm trying to build a very different culture that at work at the very least, and, and I encouraged some of my staff the other day. I said, well, it's the middle of the year, July 1st, who would be interested in maybe doing dry July? And uh, I got crickets , 

[00:35:15] Pia: Yeah. 

[00:35:18] Stephen: but you know, but again I, I don't know how hard I should really be. Pushing my personal agendas on them, uh, either, it's, it's probably, you know, that's that some of them are very young and they should be out enjoying themselves, however they wish. But all the same it's I think it's just, for me personally been incredibly beneficial and um, and particularly as you get to a certain age and I'm only in my early forties, but I'm probably healthier than I've been in over a decade. And and I'm fitter, I'm running faster, I'm swimming better and I'm certainly performing better. So it's kind exciting. I'm almost now motivated to just cheat aging and see how I push that by, by being healthy. 

[00:35:57] Pia: That's what I'm trying to 

[00:35:58] Dan: Slam it in reverse, absolutely Pia. 

[00:36:00] Pia: I think it's really interesting because I think that I mean, I think it's 90% of startups fail and every day you're right. It's this precarious nature of it that you are, you're having to be. On your best game to do it. And it's so easy to lean on things, anything actually, that, that kind of numbs a bit of the, a bit the pain sometimes. So it's quite an interesting experience doing it all fully consciously and making those decisions and living, sometimes living the pain very consciously, but also, but actually using the opportunity to really, to really think and work together and experience every aspect of it without numbing it out.

[00:36:48] Stephen: I've I've found it very interesting, cause this is my probably first time being in the, what you would call the Startup community. I think when I did the not-for-profit, it almost didn't exist. There wasn't really a venture capital scene in Australia and there wasn't any meetups or anything like that. We weren't very digital. So, and if it did, I, I wasn't involved. But there's a really great scene now and it, but it's still very. Alcohol dependent. And we are in a Startup accelerator at the moment in the us. And. Kid you not like two or three times a week, they put on a happy hour, which is sponsored by some company that's trying to sell their wears to us. And so you've got endless alcohol to drink two or three nights a week. And with these people that you're bonding with who are also going through the same thing. And I kind of said to the organizers, I'm like, you know, your business model here is that you invest a bit of money in each of us, and then you try to accelerate us in a short amount of time. Like, do you really think feeding us booze, endless booze two or three nights a week is helping anybody? Like it's it seems kind of completely counterintuitive.

[00:37:48] Dan: Intuitive. Yeah.

[00:37:49] Stephen: And you know, it was kind of a slight nod and acceptance, but no real change. I mean, I think that's changing the part of their business model to do that. But honestly, I think, you know, no matter what happens with this business on the other side, I expect I'll continue to advise other founders. And it's probably the first advice I'd give anybody is if you are. If you're serious, if you're gonna give this a red hot go, you need to think about your wellness before anything else, because if you are well, you're gonna give this your best shot and you're gonna have the most chance of success. But if you are not, and you are constantly giving yourself a handicap, then you're only letting yourself, your investors, your family, and your team down. And I know that's harsh to say, but it's probably just those first couple of years until you feel like you're on safe ground where it's make or break, and you don't wanna end up failing and feeling like you left anything on the table. If you end up failing, you wanna know you gave it everything you had, and that's just the way the cookie crumbled. So that's certainly my approach and yeah, I'd encourage others out there if they're going down that journey to have a really good think about how the two should go hand in hand, cuz to me it just makes complete common sense, but it's certainly not the norm.

[00:38:54] Dan: It's, It's been such a wonderful story, Steve, of the way you've told it. And you've. Really applied your mind all the way through to sort of, I, I, I get this sense that you've constantly turning things over and, and seeing which is a better way to do it. So I think you've shared with us already, lots of things that might seem contrary to the norm that would really work and help our listener. But I'm gonna squeeze the lemon one last time. Is there anything you could leave us with? One tip from what you've seen. Is there anything you would, and you may have shared already, but what would you urge our listener to do to help humans around them to connect in a different way?

[00:39:32] Stephen: Think probably two bits of advice. I think one is if you're a leader out there I see all too often that people, given the short cycle of retention that is pretty general out there at the moment, people aren't investing enough in development. And I'm seeing this with my friends, you know, that I, the things that really benefited me early in my career at News and those early Startup was the investment in me as an individual. And I had fantastic leader at News who said, I don't care how long you stay here. When you walk out that door, I want you to be better than when you walked in that door. That's my goal. And of course that's gonna be great for you. And some of you are gonna abuse that and be here for a short time and leave. Some of you are gonna stay here for a long time and make the most of that. And I don't particularly care because that's, for me as a leader, that's the mark that I wanna leave on you is that you will walk out of here far better than the way you walked in. And it's something that's always really stuck with me. So I think for leaders, just, you know, being really conscious about the importance of investing and you see that meme it's like the CFO talking to the CEO about like, oh, we just investing in all these people and then they leave? But, and then the other, I think the CFO that's the CFO and the CEO says what if they stay? And we don't. And that's the paradox. But yeah, but I think in this day and age, it's just like I'm finding the importance of. Of actually coaching and, and not managing, I think we've really reached a point in the modern workplace, especially exacerbated by COVID where people do not wanna be micromanaged anymore. That does not get the best outta people. And the leaders of yesterday, you know, their surveillance, they're kind of just sitting over the top of you watching sort of doing things behind closed doors to move people in and out. And it's just really nasty. And I think we need a really, to really do a big reset and, and push up coaches, people who coach people who empower people and who get the most out of them because I see it every day in my team. I see it in my friends and family as well. Even my wife has been going through her own leadership journey and just the amount of leverage that are. A team can get that is coached and not managed is incredible.

[00:41:41] So I'd strongly encourage, you know, great talent to look for businesses where that's the culture and I'd strongly encourage businesses that are still surveillance to move past that and catch up to the modern times because they're leaving lots of opportunity on the table for themselves and their people.

[00:42:00] Pia: Steve, what? I mean what your humility absolutely bowls me over because you have got an incredible career, but you bring such. Down to earth element. And I think that's something that all our listeners can really be inspired about. You know, the whole idea of having a big ego. Is so opposite to who you are. And I think that's a really good lesson for all of us, because it's about being yourself, being true to your passions and actually really looking after people. And they're not old fashioned, they are timeless. And it's an absolute pleasure to both work with you and to have you on our show. So thank you very much today.

[00:42:43] Stephen: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure and I can't wait to see what you guys do next. You're doing incredible things.

[00:42:48] 

[00:42:48] Pia: I really liked how Steve slightly pulled apart the traditional values thing and actually made it much more pragmatic and practical. And I guess in more bite size, cuz you can get those big sort of like, trust, integrity, you know, courage and they've kind of lost some of the meeting, whereas the meaning to it. Whereas I think those practices that become behaviors and what are the practices? What are we gonna do?

[00:43:19] Dan: and I think, yeah, I love that as well.

[00:43:21] Pia: I think is really, yeah, just more applicable something for us all to think about. I.

[00:43:26] Dan: I do think so. Cause as I said, I think we often find ourselves explaining it. And actually I remember once I was doing a values exercise Back in the corporate world and was with a guy, my team, who I always, we basically said, we're talking about our own personal values and, or coming up with values to the organization. And he said, you know, integrity's gotta be one, you know, you've gotta have that integrity is, and I said, well, I find it in everyone's value statement, but he said, for me, integrity is always delivering what you say you're gonna do. And I thought, well, interestingly, cuz I know, you know, it's sort of always having to explain it. He's sort of, he was someone who would always under promise to me so that, but that was what he saw as integrity. I don't see that as integrity for me, integrity is do your best, a little bit more than that. So, but instead of just these big words, I think really making it specific to behaviors, even better, those practices, which are consistent. I think that was really powerful. It, you know, a lot of the conversation with Steve made me think about that quote, the best minds of my gen of my generation are thinking about how to make people click on ads, which is where Steve started his 10 years. And he, but he's a great mind. I love the way he picks these things apart. He sees things along the way, examines them and says, right, what am I gonna take? And what am I not gonna take? 

[00:44:38] Pia: I'm making that conscious choice again, which I mean has come through so many of these, the conscious choices have just come through again and again, in these podcasts. But about wellness was a diff this was a different one. This was, you know, I've gotta, you know, I'm start I'm on a Startup. I have a 90% chance of failing. I've really gotta be on my medal. And I'm gonna sleep well, eat well, exercise and not drown myself in. In alcohol or any other substances to kind of numb things out. Quite a different way of looking at it. I.

[00:45:07] Dan: I think so. I mean, there's that sort of mental capacity isn't there and the actual capacity, if you're healthy, you can keep focusing and keep going. I think also it's a, it's very easy as a leader, particularly for teams. I think this is in maybe interesting for our listeners it sort of is to sacrifice yourself to say, I will. I'll take the strain for the team and and suck up responsibility and work to be fair. Whereas actually, if you're not wellness first, as Steve said you, you can, if you don't put wellness first, you are not really serving the team as well as yourself. So I, I felt his view was really good. Now there's just a pause for thought for all of us to think, actually just make conscious choice about us, not to say we need to live a pur in existence, but are we making the right choices consciously to really give our best? I thought it was really good.

[00:45:56] Pia: and They are layering up of those choices and they come to become they end up quite a big sum. That's the interesting part.

[00:46:03] Dan: well, I, yes, I've really noticed it cause I'm on a very strict diet at the moment, trying to lose some weight before going mountain biking in the in the, in October, I hope on my bike. 

[00:46:13] Pia: Or riding a carrot. 

[00:46:15] Dan: There's there's exactly totally eating them, but I've really noticed as an example, I've had two drinks in two weeks and every, and each of those, just one. I've never been a big drinker, but anyway, one but one drink is far is fine. What I noticed then is I get incredibly hungry afterwards. It's a massive trigger. It's you know, so, so they do layer up quite as fascinating, but when you're not, when you really strip everything away, I'm really noticing that. It's been yeah, fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So wellness first is another top tip from Steve.

[00:46:46] But that is it. For this episode, you can find show notes and resources at spotify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show notes. We not me is produced by Mark Steadman of origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:47:14] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.