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In this conversation, Kim Rapach and Jonathan Merritt explore the profound impact of literature, particularly children's books, on personal healing and identity formation. They discuss the complexities of family dynamics, mental health, and spirituality, emphasizing the importance of community and acceptance in navigating these challenges. Merritt shares his journey of reconciling his faith with his identity as a gay man, the role of grief in healing, and the significance of maintaining relationships despite disagreements. The conversation highlights the necessity of curiosity, compassion, and understanding in fostering meaningful connections and personal growth.
Creators and Guests
Guest
Jonathan Merritt
Jonathan Merritt is an award-winning author, journalist, and speaker, widely recognized for his thought leadership on faith, culture, and spirituality. His work has appeared in prominent publications like The Atlantic, The New York Times, and The Washington Post, where he explores the intersection of religion and modern life. Jonathan is also the author of several books, including Learning to Speak God from Scratch, which delves into the evolving language of faith in a changing world. With a background in theology and a passion for meaningful conversations, he continues to inspire readers and audiences alike with his insightful commentary and engaging storytelling.
What is The Work of Warriors?
Success shouldn't cost you your peace.
Welcome to The Work of Warriors, the mental health podcast for artists, entertainers, creatives, entrepreneurs, and high performers who want to build extraordinary lives without sacrificing themselves in the process.
Hosted by former therapist and nervous system strategist Kim Rapach, this podcast explores the intersection of mental health, nervous system regulation, creativity, leadership, and sustainable success. Through honest conversations with actors, musicians, comedians, producers, executives, entrepreneurs, and other industry leaders, you'll discover what it really takes to thrive both personally and professionally.
Together, we're changing the conversation around mental wellness in the entertainment industry by:
• Normalizing honest conversations about mental health
• Teaching practical tools for nervous system regulation and emotional resilience
• Redefining success to include well-being, healthy boundaries, and authentic leadership
Whether you're navigating burnout, anxiety, creative pressure, trauma, or simply searching for a healthier way to succeed, you'll find practical insights, inspiring stories, and meaningful conversations designed to help you build a life you don't have to recover from.
Because when artists are well, everybody wins.
Thank you for being part of this movement. Together, we're creating a healthier entertainment industry, one brave conversation at a time.
Jonathan Merritt (00:46.167)
Hello, hello, can you hear me?
Kim Rapach (00:49.034)
I can't, it's a little faint.
Jonathan Merritt (00:51.555)
Well, now it's your turn.
Kim Rapach (00:55.3)
Can you hear me? It's a little faint.
Jonathan Merritt (00:56.183)
I can, can you hear me?
Okay, that's weird. Let me move this closer maybe. Is that better? Better? Okay. Yes.
Kim Rapach (01:03.308)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's better. Yeah, I just, have my speaker turned all the way up and usually I have to turn it down.
Jonathan Merritt (01:12.791)
Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't seem like it's the bar is going so high, huh?
Kim Rapach (01:18.009)
Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (01:19.607)
Huh.
Kim Rapach (01:20.484)
Let me see if it may be connected to something else. Let's try that. Same again. Same one more time.
Jonathan Merritt (01:27.519)
Okay. Same, same.
Okay, this suggests settings of how loudly others can hear you. Does that, is that, is that better or Same. Okay. it says, okay, here's the mic. Huh.
Kim Rapach (01:37.856)
Okay. It's the same.
Jonathan Merritt (01:53.119)
Is that the same or lower?
Kim Rapach (01:57.539)
No.
I'm just checking all of mine too.
Jonathan Merritt (02:03.683)
Hmm. Check, check, check.
Kim Rapach (02:03.972)
Let's try that one.
Kim Rapach (02:08.772)
They're all the same, no matter what I put you on.
Jonathan Merritt (02:09.651)
output volume. This does not affect the volume that gets that's what
Kim Rapach (02:14.082)
That's good. That was better. Maybe your microphone.
Jonathan Merritt (02:18.207)
Okay. So maybe let's see. Yeah. I'm here. I've turned up output volume.
Kim Rapach (02:25.085)
wait, me try. Let's try this.
could try again.
Jonathan Merritt (02:32.355)
Check check, check check, check check.
Kim Rapach (02:36.644)
Nothing is changing no matter what I do. I have all these little tools and...
Jonathan Merritt (02:42.165)
Interesting. I am.
Kim Rapach (02:43.544)
I mean, I think it's fine. I was just a little surprised that it wasn't louder.
Jonathan Merritt (02:47.423)
Yeah, I'm also surprised. Okay, let me see here. Let me see.
Kim Rapach (02:50.904)
But you're hearing me okay.
Jonathan Merritt (03:01.283)
Let me do output volume Mac. How do I adjust that? Volume advice, okay.
Jonathan Merritt (03:25.731)
Adjust the go to system preferences. Let me just adjust this real quick.
Kim Rapach (03:44.696)
This reminds me of like when you go to the store and all the little pads for your debit card are different and the buttons are different. it's like on this one, you have to do this. And on this one, it's like everybody I interview, it's always different.
Jonathan Merritt (03:58.499)
Let me see here.
Jonathan Merritt (04:04.727)
I've got a supports mic modes. OK, wait. Go to system purposes, then input, select the microphone, then adjust the input volume slider. OK, so if I do, I think that's the.
Kim Rapach (04:19.684)
Okay, and I have more... Wait, let's try that. Hi.
Kim Rapach (04:42.116)
Can you test that again? I just changed something on my end.
Jonathan Merritt (04:54.125)
Check and see. All right, if that does not work, we can get in here. I have like an app, like a focus setting app that requires a code for certain things, and it requires a code to get into system preferences, which I don't have.
Kim Rapach (05:13.184)
I think if you keep your microphone where, yeah, I think because have you recorded in Riverside before? Okay, so they'll, I mean at the back end, it'll all balance out. So it's not like I can't hear you. It's just that it's not as loud as it typically is when I have my volume all the way up. But it's not like I wanna be like, what? So it should be fine.
Jonathan Merritt (05:16.205)
Close. Okay.
I have but it's been a minute. Yes.
Jonathan Merritt (05:31.639)
Okay.
Jonathan Merritt (05:35.402)
Okay.
Jonathan Merritt (05:39.327)
Okay, thank you. All right.
Kim Rapach (05:40.536)
I don't want to have to have you go through more trouble with an app and all that.
Jonathan Merritt (05:46.101)
OK, well.
Kim Rapach (05:46.638)
So I started recording, I did your short intro already. And then at the end, when I stopped recording, if you just stick around for a second, I always feel a little awkward at that point, like, okay, bye. And then I'm like, wait a second, come back.
Jonathan Merritt (05:51.319)
Okay.
Jonathan Merritt (06:03.147)
Or yeah, letting it upload, letting it upload, right? Yeah, that makes sense.
Kim Rapach (06:05.932)
Right, that too. So welcome to the work of warriors. Thank you so much for being here.
Jonathan Merritt (06:12.603)
my gosh, thank you so much for having me on.
Kim Rapach (06:15.97)
Well, I know you're so busy, so it means a lot to me that you would take this time. It really does.
Jonathan Merritt (06:19.629)
Gosh, it is my pleasure.
Kim Rapach (06:23.044)
Can we, it's probably gonna be my favorite part of the interview maybe, but can we just jump in with this?
Jonathan Merritt (06:30.698)
my gosh, yes. my gosh, yes, that book, the book of my heart.
Kim Rapach (06:31.748)
My gunkle and me?
Kim Rapach (06:38.498)
Well, I have been, I mean, I've been following you for quite some time and I love your work. I have, you know, I have my own share of like church wounds. And so I love your work because you feel like a very safe corner of the internet and of social media. So thank you for that. But when this book, when I saw the title and I saw you start promoting it, it just honestly healed a little younger version of me.
Jonathan Merritt (06:51.647)
Kim Rapach (07:03.632)
and I just, yeah, I'm a little emotional. It's very special to me because I have an uncle who's gay. And when I was little, he was my favorite. I mean, not that he still isn't, but he was my favorite uncle of four and my uncle Tim. And I was a little bit like Henry in the book. but my uncle Tim was so special to me. He just was always so kind and so fun and so generous. And then I have this.
trauma around another uncle sharing my uncle Tim's sexuality with me and the way that he did it and the way that he said it was very cruel. It was so unkind. It was so tainted. And then, my version of the story is that then my uncle Tim moved away and he moved to California. We were in Illinois. And so when I saw that, I'm like, I think I messaged you and I'm like, I really could have used this when I was six. So
Jonathan Merritt (07:56.173)
Wow.
Kim Rapach (07:57.324)
On behalf of all of us who share a commonality in this realm, I just want to say thank you.
Jonathan Merritt (07:59.361)
Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (08:03.117)
my gosh, my, my pleasure. You know, it was, I never set out to write children's books. I've always written for, for grownups and the majority of my career, I was like a columnist who was writing about politics and you know, contentious grownup issues. And, you know, the, you, you can never, the, the spirit blows wherever it will. And, the spirit of creativity.
blew into my life in the form of this story of, Henry and his gunkle. And it was mined from the soil of my own life. And, you know, it was, it was the kind of book I wish I would have had when I was a kid as well, but it's also reflective of the ways in which my, my own life story has become more beautiful in adulthood.
And so to reflect that back was a real gift, but man, I did not expect to, to ever write, write an illustrated children's book, but you know, it's been such a joyful experience because of talking to people like you. And a lot of people I hear from they'll, they are, they either now have maybe a gay sibling who's, who's, you know, actively in the life of their children. And so this book becomes a tool.
to have conversations that need to be had. You you had a conversation that was not a great conversation. And in some ways those conversations were had because the better version of that conversation, parents and adults, they didn't feel equipped to have those conversations. And so what I hope to do with this book is to give parents in particular,
the type of tool that they would need to have that conversation in a good way, in a loving way, in a redemptive way before somebody comes along and has it in a negative way. And so I really appreciate you saying that.
Kim Rapach (10:06.114)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to say more about what your experience was?
Jonathan Merritt (10:12.907)
Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up in the home of a Southern Baptist preacher, a mega church pastor, a TV preacher. My dad was president of the Southern Baptist convention, which is the largest Christian body outside of the Roman Catholic church in the United States and is a very politically active and very conservative way of
Kim Rapach (10:41.533)
it cut out on me. There you are.
Jonathan Merritt (10:42.655)
of being Christian. Southern Baptist Church doesn't have very many good things to say about people who are gay. If it acknowledges them at all as even existing, know, for a lot of Southern Baptist people, there's no such thing as a gay person. There's just straight people who are denying their own straightness.
And so I grew up hearing terrible things about people who were like me. And as it came to kind of understand who I was, I thought, oh gosh, all those terrible things that were said about those people now apply to me because I think I might be one of those people in some way. And, uh, you know, I, I've, I've long understood that the
the futures that we create are a function of the types of imaginations we have as children shaped by the stories we're told. And I was told stories about, um, uh, gay people dying in the fire and going to the fires of hell. Um, of gay people being, Oh, I mean, you know, these are, these are stories for all ages. If you're raised evangelical. So, you know,
Kim Rapach (11:59.565)
And how old were you?
Jonathan Merritt (12:08.911)
we're talking as, as, as early as my earliest memories, you know, and, and, and as bad a job as religion did in telling me stories about what happened to people who had the courage to embrace their identity as, as gay and queer people, secular culture didn't do a very good job either. You know, I came of age during.
Kim Rapach (12:14.712)
Bye.
Jonathan Merritt (12:37.961)
in the 1990s in the heights of, of the AIDS epidemic in the late eighties and early nineties. And so, you know, if you saw gay people depicted, on the news, on television, these were not, positive pictures. They were people with heroin needles in their arms and people lying comatose and gutters and dying alone in hospital beds. And so, I thought nothing, surely nothing good.
would be in store for a person like me if I ever had enough courage to step out of the closet. And I wanted to write the kind of story that would give children a more positive imagination, not just for being a gay, but for being different in any way. You know, this is not one of those books that's trying to tell kids they're gay, not that those books exist.
Kim Rapach (13:33.485)
Right.
Jonathan Merritt (13:34.583)
But this is a book that simply is a story that takes place in the kind of world that so many children live in, a world where gay people do exist and are a part of our families. And it tells a true story, which is a story that acknowledges that there are gifts to give, that queer people have gifts to give that.
other people don't have to give that, that are, that are mined from the soil of their unique life experiences. And so I hope that when people read this book, that children will realize that whatever it is that makes them different, makes them special. And that's the gift they have to give to the world.
Jonathan Merritt (14:30.819)
Do I have you?
Kim Rapach (14:34.114)
Am I cutting out on you?
Jonathan Merritt (14:35.853)
You're not cutting out on me.
Kim Rapach (14:37.804)
Okay, because you're cutting out on me. I don't know why you're I mean, it catches up, but you're cutting out on me. So don't know if you want to just check your signal real quick. Okay.
Jonathan Merritt (14:45.869)
Let me check.
Jonathan Merritt (14:51.57)
I'll be right back.
Jonathan Merritt (15:18.659)
All right, we have turned off the Wi-Fi on other devices here. So we'll see if that helps.
Kim Rapach (15:22.756)
I don't know if you can hear me, you were kind of frozen at the door.
Kim Rapach (15:30.838)
Okay, great.
So again, thank you because, you know, having the experience that I had with, you know, one contentious uncle against my favorite uncle was so confusing. And it was, I think I was six. And so it was so jolting. And again, you know, for any, any differences to have somebody talk so negatively about somebody that you love and you're a child, it's hard enough as an adult to hear it.
Jonathan Merritt (15:47.181)
Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (15:59.713)
Yeah.
Kim Rapach (16:01.604)
But when you're a child, it's just devastating. I think if I'm correct, think my uncle wasn't, my uncle Tim, who was my favorite uncle, was not allowed to babysit me because he was gay.
Jonathan Merritt (16:14.891)
Yeah. Wow.
Kim Rapach (16:18.562)
And there was never an ounce of harm. in fact, I think it probably caused him more harm, you know, just as a human being, just being viewed that way.
Jonathan Merritt (16:34.049)
You just cut out that time.
Kim Rapach (16:37.868)
I did? Shoot.
Jonathan Merritt (16:38.465)
Yes, you did. Let's see. Are we video recording as well?
Kim Rapach (16:45.046)
Yes.
Jonathan Merritt (16:46.403)
Alright, let me see here.
Kim Rapach (16:48.878)
But I am tethered in, so it's not my wifi. I mean, it could be my internet.
Jonathan Merritt (16:57.379)
Okay.
Kim Rapach (16:58.318)
Put them on a 5G.
Jonathan Merritt (17:01.005)
me close that. Do because I've got, we do a lot of podcasts recording here and I don't normally have an issue and I've got the other devices turned off. Huh.
Kim Rapach (17:11.491)
Yeah, I
Kim Rapach (17:16.387)
Hmm.
Even right now, like while you're talking, you're just frozen.
Jonathan Merritt (17:22.359)
Really?
Kim Rapach (17:26.328)
Yeah, it just kind of frees in and out. It could be, I mean, I suppose it could be Riverside. Do you ever have issues with Riverside?
Jonathan Merritt (17:34.531)
I don't know, I very rarely record in Riverside, but I have before and I don't think I have had any issues.
Kim Rapach (17:46.028)
Okay, all right. Well, we'll just be patient with each other and keep going and take the best of it. So with all of your experiences within, you know, the way that you were raised and being in the church, how would you describe that impacted your mental health?
Jonathan Merritt (17:50.423)
Right.
Jonathan Merritt (18:09.011)
gosh. Well, you know, I suppose there were some positives. I, I think that there are some, there are some ways in which is statistically speaking, religion can be a real benefit. gives you a set of tools that you can use and, you can deploy and that promote health.
that that's more true when you are white, male and straight. And if you deviate from those categories and you're raised in a, in a fundamentalist home, or you're, or you're just somebody who's really, really curious or doubting. if you, if you're not, a loyal soldier,
or you don't fit into the majoritarian categories of identity, then it gets really hard. You know, you begin to learn early on that in fundamentalism. And this is very similar to what you learned. What you learned from your other uncle, not your gay uncle, what you learned was not just something negative.
about being gay, but you learn something negative about the way love works. That you are not loved as completely or as fully, that your access and your privileges are cut off if you do not conform to a certain way of being.
And so there's a conditionality to love. And that has a very negative impact on mental wellbeing because it compromises your sense of security, your sense of safety, your sense of belonging. I mean, these are like really high on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Jonathan Merritt (20:31.003)
especially for a child. I think similarly, you know, there was a study that was done by Baylor University not too long ago that was saying it kind of had your God concept was placed into four quadrants, right? So there's like the God that's mostly angry, but mostly distant, the God that's mostly angry, but mostly involved.
the God that's mostly loving but is distant and the God that's loving and involved. And, you know, those concepts of God correlate to mental health in some really profound ways. So I grew up with an angry involved God, which is one of the worst God concepts that a person can have. It has the most negative impacts
on your mental health. And I've since made the transition to a loving God who's also involved, which has the most positive fruit in terms of mental health and mental wellbeing. But the God that you encounter in your formative years, there's a kind of residue that's left behind and you never fully deprogram from
the sort of the encoded software of that previous version. So, you know, there's this like, even though I know on a conscious level that what we call God is a loving entity and is for us and with us and is present in this experience we're having.
in this life, there's still that, that voice that sort of whispers in the background. and just as soon as you think that you've shaken it off and you've left it behind, there it is again, creeping up on you, whispering in your ear, what if they're right? What if this is not the truth? what if you have, denied the truth or walked away from the truth? What if
Jonathan Merritt (22:49.949)
And, and so, it there's also when you grow up with a negative God concept and you transition to a positive concept, you're, you're also committing to a lifetime of work of, of, of, of D programming and reprogramming, which means you don't have as many reserves as you'd have otherwise mentally.
because you're having to constantly do this other work just to reach a level of stability. And that's deeply unfortunate.
Kim Rapach (23:22.446)
Can you explain more about that? Can you describe that a little bit more about what that work looks like to maintain that stability?
Jonathan Merritt (23:29.193)
Yeah. So you, if you become an observer of your own thoughts and your own anxieties, your own, you're, you're holding yourself accountable for, for the ways in which you are thinking about God, which is just another way of saying the ways in which we're thinking about capital R reality, the thing beneath the thing. I mean, what could be more consequential than one's God concept?
When you're having to monitor that and, and, and, you, you, I'm constantly having to say, no, that's not right. No, no, no. And then you've got to say, well, what's not right. there that goes again. And well, what is true? And then you have to kind of work it in, right? Like continue to fold in what you believe is true, over and against the lies that you were told growing up. It's exhausting work.
And that's just to get back to the, to that, that sort of default level where most people live who never encountered the God that I inherited. And so that, that just means that the available energy I have to, to promote my own mental wellbeing is limited by the energy I have to invest to keep me from falling off the cliff.
into the place of despair that is the natural fruit of the God concept I inherited. I don't know if any of that makes sense, that's sort of is the way in which I think about all the energy that I have to invest just to survive.
Kim Rapach (25:08.544)
Yeah, well, and yeah, and it's exhausting. Yeah.
Kim Rapach (25:19.79)
Yeah, and like you said, it's exhausting. Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (25:21.889)
Yeah, it is. And, know, people, would say people who are, parts of any, you know, if, somebody on this podcast were a black person or a trans person or, know, a woman in a patriarchal community, they could, they would say a similar, could say a similar thing about their own existence that they're having to deprogram from, from what in, when they were most formative, when your brain is so soft,
And your nerve pathways are being formed. The things that you're being told by your authority figures, the people that, that you love and trust, you know, that is, that's becoming, you know, deeply imprinted into your psyche and the rest of your life is spent having to undo those lies and then replace it with the truth. And it's like whack-a-mole. As soon as you think you're done, you're not done.
Kim Rapach (26:22.83)
Well, that's how I feel about the healing journey in general as humans. but more specifically to what you're talking about, that was what I was going to ask you is what would you say is the truth? If, if I'm raised with, you know, one set of beliefs and it was during my formative years and I'm like, I don't know what the truth is. What would you say?
Jonathan Merritt (26:44.611)
Well, I can only say what my experience and my faith tells me when we're talking about spirituality and that is that God is love. And that, know, even if you're somebody who is a very rigid Christian, who's a, even a literalist in terms of how you read your, your holy scriptures, that's one thing that I think we can all say that's a
pretty good starting point we can all agree on. And so if God is love, then the ways in which God thinks about us and interacts with us and the ways in which God wills for us have to be consistent with the loving nature of who God is. And people will then, what ends up happening in fundamentalism,
is fundamentalism will then have to redefine basic terms in order to get its God concept to fit. So they'll describe something that any child will tell you is unloving, but then they'll call it love. So you'll have a parent who kicks their child out of their home because they're gay, for example. you, know,
You have a gay youth who are in homeless shelters and they are told that that's what love does, right? So there's this kind of like gaslighting about basic concepts of human existence such as love. And so I know, I have to even return to what I know love is and what love does and what love looks like.
and say God is love, that is what God does, that is who God is. God loves you because God loves you, because God loves you, that God has no wrath or anger or punishment for you, that God is not like your abusive parent. God is the perfect parent, the all-loving parent, and that
Jonathan Merritt (29:06.237)
that God has nothing but good things for you. And, for, for some folks, in certain religious traditions, that is an intolerable thing to believe because it removes your ability to create, borders, insiders and outsiders hierarchy of power, marginalization. doesn't allow you to other others.
And so we have to create these workarounds that makes the loving God so unloving. And I start with that and say, I believe that is true. And when you open your heart to love, you begin to experience the love of God in such a way that it becomes undeniable.
Kim Rapach (30:02.552)
Mm, it's so beautiful.
Kim Rapach (30:07.288)
What has been a positive experience in regards to like what you're describing now? Do you have an experience that you'd be willing to share that's just one of those life altering moments in a good way?
Jonathan Merritt (30:23.555)
Well, you know, I think that, when you've encountered a bad version of a good thing, so spirituality is a good thing and religion is just a container into which spirituality can exist so that it gives it form and shape. I encountered a bad version of that.
Aversion of that. Now it wasn't all bad, right? Fundamentalism has the, you can always tease out and say, what are the gifts and, and what are the liabilities or the risks? what's the shadow side and the, and, and the light, there was light in that, in the tradition I was raised in, but there was a lot of shadow and a lot of that shadow was concentrated, in, in responses to people like me. So.
When you've encountered a bad version of a good thing, a lot of people will say, I no longer trust the thing. So they go, yeah, I, know, people who grew up in fundamentalism, they don't walk away from fundamentalism. They walk away from religion. They walk away from spirituality. They be there. They are triggered, triggered by the symbols, the stories, the language, the whole thing. They become.
They become so afraid of being re traumatized by the bad version of the good thing that they just decide to stay away from the thing altogether. And I have to say, don't, I don't fault people for that. I totally understand that response for me, faith or, or spirituality is, you know, there are, I often say there are things in life that you
that you run toward and there are things in life that you can't seem to run away from. And for me, religion or spirituality is the second thing. It's the thing that I can't seem to run away from it because it's so foundational to the way that I experience life and it's a set of tools that can be really, really meaningful and helpful to me. And so,
Jonathan Merritt (32:47.061)
What I have done and it's been helpful is to find an expression of spirituality that is life-giving and healthy. That makes space for people like me that, that reaffirms what I know to be true about, the unflappable love of God. And so.
my church and my Kim, my Christian community that I'm a part of now, in New York has, has not only been a positive presence, but it's been a healing presence because when you encounter the good version of the good thing, it can help to heal some of the carnage that was created by the bad version of the good thing.
Kim Rapach (33:45.668)
Yeah. Wow. That's powerful.
Kim Rapach (33:53.92)
So you're doing a lot of brave work. You've done a lot of courageous work. You've done 3,000 articles. You've really been courageous and honest and authentic in sharing your experience and what you know to be true. I would assume you get additional backlash.
Jonathan Merritt (34:17.795)
Yeah, you know, these, these days I write a lot fewer articles than I used to. And the reason is, is because the internet has changed and it's not a safe place like it used to be. Maybe that maybe it was never as safe as we thought, but it certainly is less safe than it used to be. And it's become more toxic and more combative. And so the
Kim Rapach (34:26.723)
Yeah
Kim Rapach (34:31.844)
Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (34:45.547)
I think when I was when I first started out as a columnist
I was, it was an, it was an emotionally positive experience. It was almost cathartic because it was the first time I could write in a way that I felt like was true. I could say the things I believed were true about God, about faith, about spirituality, even if those true things were negative truths about the way that I had been brought up or the way that that tradition was expressing itself.
today. Over time, I think the math shifted. So some of that work, that positive emotional impact from writing those articles was undone by the backlash that I would receive online after the publication of an article like that. And it wasn't just
backlash against me. you know, to this day, I will, there will be comments on my dad's social media, unrelated to anything he's saying or doing, that sort of is attempting to bully him using me or maybe to bully me through him. And that takes a toll.
so I have had other family members who've been attacked by people who don't like me and then we'll call them out and we'll, know, I mean, I remember when we talked about my gunkle in me, my, my children's book and, you know, my dad remains evangelical though we love each other and we've remained in relationship. actually have a great relationship.
Jonathan Merritt (36:47.787)
So, you know, is that the book my dad would have chosen for me to write? Probably not. But he loves me and he allows me to live the life that I've chosen for myself. So, that for some people is offensive in and of itself. And so people...
We're trying to bully him into attacking me and, and, condemning my children's book. And it was brutal, you know, emails and tweets and just, you know, the number of people that we have both had to just mute, for our own sanities. So at some point you start to think, you know,
Kim Rapach (37:24.6)
can imagine.
Jonathan Merritt (37:42.627)
I've said a lot of the things that I needed to say about X, Y, and Z. of course, now these days, can have a platform to say anything. When I first started this work, it wasn't that way. Being a journalist was a real amplifier. And now there are people who, they get more clicks than the New York Times on their Instagram page. So,
You know, there are a lot of voices doing that work and I'm not so egotistical into thinking I'm the only one and I have to pick every fight. I have to take up every cause. So I would say some of my work has actually been, I think some of my early work and in the first half of life was, was about what do I need to say that I'm not saying? How can I speak up?
to say the thing that I've been silenced from saying for too long. And I think now as I'm entering the second half of life, a lot of my work is around where I need not to say. That actually the best thing for me is to rest in the knowledge of what I know to be true and allow someone else to fight certain fights. And there's a wisdom.
Kim Rapach (39:01.518)
Hmm.
Jonathan Merritt (39:03.423)
in silence, just like there's a wisdom in speaking up and there's discernment to know the difference. And I think that's been my work in this period of life. And I'll say, if I had continued to write three columns a week, which is what I was doing at one
Kim Rapach (39:31.527)
I lost your volume.
Jonathan Merritt (39:34.443)
If I, if, can you hear me now? I don't know where it went red. If I, if I had continued to write three columns a week and manage the backlash and response and, you know, fight with, with all of the haters and trolls, I don't think that I would have had the energy to write my children's book. So when I, when I, when I say no.
Kim Rapach (39:35.876)
There you are. Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (40:03.467)
to using my energy in a way that I know is not good or beneficial or healthy. Then I create margin where my creativity still flows, but it flows out in other ways. And, you know, I think that we have to fight the darkness and somebody has to do that. And also,
We have to champion champion the light. And I think my, in my first half of life, I was a darkness fighter and that was so meaningful to me. And the more that I'm discerning my own calling and vocation in this season of life, it is to go and to be the light and to allow someone else to do some of the darkness fighting in my stead.
Kim Rapach (41:03.32)
Hmm. I love that you're speaking to how we can do different things in different seasons of life and how you apply that to, you know, spirituality and, you know, even your vocation. I'm curious what your current church looks like. Like if, if I were a fly on the wall,
What does your current church and Christian community look like?
Jonathan Merritt (41:35.885)
Yeah.
Well, I'll say two things depending on how you mean that. So there's the church in the traditional sense, and then there's the church maybe in a more non-traditional sense. I think if, if church is creating a space where you commune with God, a space that is uniquely sacred, where you, where you create space where God can act.
then I think church is an experience that I have been able to nurture in lots of different places and with lots of different people. And that has been an amazing experience and a lot of people have had that experience. But there's also a real value, I think, in church in the traditional sense. The organized or established church, there are lots of
of, of gifts in that, in that way of being religious or faithful. And so, I go to a church in New York city. meet in Manhattan called good shepherd. and, we would never use this language to describe ourselves, but we're kind of post evangelical congregation. We would say.
We are an inter-denominational ecumenical church. And by that, we mean that whatever tradition you come from, we want you to bring the gifts of that tradition into our community for the sake of all. And that there's something that we can learn both from the pain and the joy that you bring. And so that's new.
Kim Rapach (43:24.388)
Hmm.
Jonathan Merritt (43:33.819)
it's new for me to be in a church that welcomes all of you in your religious tradition as we walk the way of Jesus together that rather than say this, this particular way of being Christian is the way. And that's, we're going to put our, you know, our stamp of authorization on that. That's the authorized way of being Christian for our church.
And then anybody who deviates from that maybe feels less welcome or maybe they are less welcome. we hold together the tension of a multifaceted community with lots of different ways of being Christian, recognizing that every way of being Christian has its own set of gifts and wisdom, sacred wisdom, and that we can learn from each other if we will welcome it all to the table.
The other thing that I think our church does really well is I would describe us as not a belief-based church, but a practice-based church. We are a diverse group of believers who are together practicing the way of Jesus. We have a practice of reciting the Creed. If you come to our church, we would say the Apostles' Creed, which is
Kim Rapach (44:46.414)
Say more.
Jonathan Merritt (45:01.727)
the earliest compression of basic Christian belief. But we say that even when we say the Apostles Creed, it's we believe. We as a community, and there may be some parts of that that you don't know if you believe it right now. That's okay. We say it together. In some cases, it's a statement of faith or hope or of holding up one another. We have a practice of prayer.
We have a practice of gathering. have a practice of the table. take Eucharist every week, which is something that Christians have done for a long, long time. We have a practice of reading the scripture together and reflecting on the gospels. We have a practice of, of silence. We hold silence together. so when people say to us, well, what does your church believe about? And, know, fill in the blank with whatever your favorite theological debate is.
we would say, I don't know, why don't you go ask them? Because we are a people who are working out all of those things together alongside the spirit. And our church doesn't use, a certain set of Christian beliefs as measuring sticks of someone's spiritual stature or their commitment to following Jesus. And you know, I get that that wouldn't work.
for a lot of churches depending on how that church came to be, but it works really, really well for ours. And I know it because I look around that room and I see people coming back to life who maybe haven't experienced life in a religious setting for a really, really long time.
Kim Rapach (46:43.693)
Yeah, well, that would be my experience. So I was I was baptized Catholic, like as an infant, because that's what you did. And, you know, my joke is always like, I think I was baptized and then I was taken to the babysitter. So all the friends and all the family could go to the bar and celebrate. And so it wasn't a really meaningful experience necessarily. And then I found my way into a mega church.
Jonathan Merritt (46:51.342)
wow. Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (47:01.035)
huh. huh.
Kim Rapach (47:10.692)
And it was the beginning of, my husband and I's relationship. And it was very meaningful and powerful and life-changing. And, um, and then it was a mega church that, know, you're surely familiar with in the Chicago land area and a lot of trauma coming out of that. And, you know, I just, I, I don't think I've stepped foot other than a graduation since. And however, in my day to day, like even today, I had like a group coaching call with my coach.
And it was so spiritual and it was so insightful and so enlightening. In my head, I was just like, this is church. Maybe we didn't call it that. Maybe that wasn't the intention we had coming in, but we are a collective of love and connection. And so I really appreciate you sharing all of that. would love to visit sometime.
Jonathan Merritt (48:02.563)
Mm-hmm. Oh, we would love, we would love to have you. It would be a gift to have you among us. We have some folks in our community from Chicago who I think maybe, maybe even we're a part of that community too. And there's so much healing that happens in it. We're not a perfect church, but we're just what some of us need.
And we'd love to have you. That'd be fantastic. I mean, a lot of people, you know, we have a thing called digital church, which is our digital expression. And it's not like a live stream. It's like a separately made expression of our Sunday gathering. And it is so soulful and artistic and beautiful that we've had people now who consider themselves a part of Good Shepherd.
who live in Nashville or Washington state. And that's really beautiful too. In fact, those people who are part of the kind of far-flung, good shepherd communities will even come and hang out with us. And it's so beautiful because they will say to us, you know, it's not that I'm choosing you over another church.
Kim Rapach (49:03.917)
Hmm.
Jonathan Merritt (49:28.843)
I'm choosing you over no church because there isn't a church, you know, in my proximity that I would feel comfortable attending, but I love, I love being able to attend your church digitally. And you know, they formed neighbors have come together with neighbors as a part of digital church. And, you know, that was not, it was not even the kind of thing that I believed was, was, was possible or good.
And now I see the way that in our current moment, the way that that's a life draft for a lot of people is meaningful digital connection with a new way of, or a different way of being Christian.
Kim Rapach (50:14.436)
Sure. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. I wanted to ask you, because I think now in where our world is, where our culture is right now, where our society is, you wrote the five guidelines to maintain relationships despite disagreement. And that was really powerful. And I was wondering if you could just quickly share what those are, because I think now is a time where we need that probably more than ever.
Jonathan Merritt (50:31.72)
huh.
Jonathan Merritt (50:43.095)
Yeah. So this, this was actually born out of, of my relationship with my dad. and really trying to, to navigate what it would look like to stay in relationship with someone who, had beliefs and not just
generic beliefs. I mean, we disagree on politics and theology about as much as any two people can, but even beliefs about my own identity, that are at deep, deeply at odds. And, you know, in our current moment, the, the way to respond to that is to cut that person off.
and you know, there's a whole cottage industry of influencers out there who are encouraging people to go no contact with their immediate family. And, know, I'll be the first to admit that there are times where a family or family member is abusive to the point that the only response, the only right response is, is distance separation or even lack of communication total.
total severing of relationship. But I think that that's true mostly in extreme cases. know, a lot of what we, what we know about the ways in which our primary relationships are embedded into our beings and the ways in which our relationships with our parents are not like our relationships with our coworkers. You know, if you're, if I have a coworker who
believes some of the things that, you know, some of my primary family members believe I'm probably not going to be investing in that relationship, but it's different when it is, the person who gave you life, the person who was with you every year of your formative years. And so, I, I've worked hard to stay in relationship, but that relationship often looks
Jonathan Merritt (53:03.219)
smaller than I wish it would. That's just sort of the way, the way that it works, right? You, you, you're not going to have your dream relationship with that person perhaps, but you can have something that's not nothing. You can have something that can be in its own way, really beautiful. And the energy that you save from
Kim Rapach (53:07.427)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Merritt (53:27.497)
Trying to force this to be something it's not. You can invest into finding people who can fill in the gaps. So, you know, I, I, I wrote this, this, this post, five guidelines to maintain a relationship despite disagreement. And they were, to remember that you can't police someone else's beliefs about you.
but you can police someone's behaviors toward you. This was a big one for me, which is, look, if you think I'm a bad person, what I can do is I can try to convince you I'm a good person. can argue with you, but anyone who can argue you into thinking I'm a good person, somebody else can argue you out of that belief. It is not within my control to manage your mind.
I cannot dictate what you believe about the world or me with precision, right? I can influence it. I can be a good person and hope that you come to believe that I'm a good person, but we've all had experiences with people that we've treated very well who've thought very terrible things about us. So I can't, I cannot manage your mind, your beliefs, but I can manage your behaviors. And that works both ways. Right? I can say, here's how I need to be treated.
However you think about me, going back to my example of church, we don't have a statement of belief about LGBTQ identity or marriage. So can, can you be a part of Good Shepherd and believe that, Christians should not, gay Christians shouldn't be married. The answer is yes, you can, you can, but the way that we maintain a sense of safety is we have a practice of inclusion.
So if you're going to hold that belief, you still have to practice inclusion, which means you have to serve next to me and pray next to me. And sometimes I might sing or preach and you get to sing and preach too. How about that? but we're not able to, we're not going to say things that other or offend that makes somebody feel less than a fully accepted child of God that we're, we, we practice inclusion together, whatever your beliefs are.
Jonathan Merritt (55:53.931)
And in the same way in my, in my family unit, we, have a practice, around accepting each other. And so, you know, that, that can be really, really, really difficult. but I'll give you a great example. One of the ways that we police each other's behaviors is we only use language to describe the other person in conversation.
Kim Rapach (56:03.917)
Wow.
Jonathan Merritt (56:21.443)
in the way that they would describe themselves. So my dad doesn't call me same-sex attracted. Although the phrase same-sex attracted may actually be more aligned with his own beliefs, but that's not how I would describe myself. So you can call me gay, a gay man or a queer man or a queer person, whatever works for you. Because that's how I would describe me.
and out of your love for me and respect for me, you can describe me, speak of me the way I would speak of myself. Well, the shoe, you know, fits both feet. And I don't describe my dad as a fundamentalist. You know, do I think that he fits that definition? I do. Is that more aligned with what I believe to be true? It is. But he finds that term offensive.
And he wouldn't describe himself that way. He describes himself as an evangelical Christian, an evangelical Protestant, a Southern Baptist. And so when, when I'm speaking of him, to him, I'm not, I'm not using inflammatory identifiers and neither is he. Now I, he can't change the fact that I think he fits that definition and I can't change the fact that he would use different language for me.
We're not policing each other's beliefs. are, we're exerting control only where control is possible. So that's one. and I, I spend a little time there just because it's, it's so important. The other one is so important. the second one is that it's okay to fight with each other in private, but you only fight for each other in public. And this makes a lot of people mad because.
Kim Rapach (57:59.99)
It's so important. It's so powerful.
Jonathan Merritt (58:15.843)
There's a, you know, the, the social media can become like the new Roman Coliseum where people really love to see two people pitted against each other and fighting to the death. And if you refuse to give people, to give the crowds what they want, the mobs can come for you. They can get really frustrated or angry. They can try to goad you into it or bribe you into it.
And, we were, we just simply refused to play that game. So just because we are, we're kind to each other and loving to each other and affirming of each other on social media doesn't mean that we don't have deep disagreements. We absolutely do. But those disagreements are held in private. And by the way, once disagreements are externalized in public, they become much harder to resolve.
You, you, you, become very complicated. The stakes get unbelievably high. And so we stay far, far away from public arguments, despite the fact that lots of people try to get us, to fight with each other. Now we will joke that, that if you were to, you know, if you were to put ring cameras all over our house, when I'm home to visit, you might see some, some disagreements and arguments.
But we have those, we have those in, in safe places. And by the way, I'll add one more little note here that may be helpful for people. We also intentionally do not recruit other family members in our private disputes. So, so my dad won't be like, well, you know, I told your mother what you said and she agrees with me, or I won't say my brother James, you know, says that he thinks you're wrong on this too.
because that just widens the rifts and the divisions. So we don't recruit other family members in our disagreements either. The third is, and this maybe even relates back to some of the other things that we've been talking about is that we always keep in mind that it is hard to truly love someone when all of your energy is devoted to trying to change who they are. So most of us have a choice.
Jonathan Merritt (01:00:41.571)
Do you want to love me or do you want to change me? Because they become at some point mutually exclusive. And if you want to change me, then what you call love could be bribery or coercion. could be energy that is misdirected and called love. It's not the energy of acceptance, which is
the heart of love. So I think that a lot of people get this, a lot of my friends who are in the LGBTQ community, they get this when it comes to who they are. And they forget this truth when it comes to who other people are. So I think that
relationships to thrive, they have to be, you have to come to each other on equal terms. So if I want my dad to stop trying to change who I am and just love me as I am, then I have to do the same thing. Isn't that a shame? I have to give up all of my desires to change who he is and to become the person I want him to be.
And to love him as he is imperfect as that is instead. And that's a really, that's a tall order. That's a difficult order. a lot of, a lot of folks become fundamentalists in the opposite direction. Right. Where they go, I used to think I was right and you were wrong. Now I think I'm right and you were wrong. It's just a different you.
And, and I use the same tools against you that I learned so well in fundamentalism, even though I let go of all the fundamentalist theology and politics and beliefs and ideologies. And, I think we have to let go of our, of our efforts to coerce someone else, to form them into the image that we wish they were. the other thing is, is there's a real spirit of curiosity.
Jonathan Merritt (01:03:02.175)
in our relationship and that has been intentional and we've had to fight for it. So during heated discussions, really during any discussions, we really try to get curious. know, it's a principle from St. Francis. Seek first to understand before seeking to be understood. And I think what happens, at least in my experience is
is in relationship, we often assume that we know people better than we really do, and that they know us less well than they might. And so we go, yeah, you don't understand me, but I understand you. I know who you are, but you don't know me. And so that assumption then creates an energy that becomes
argumentative, persuasive, coercive. So instead, what if you were to replace that energy of coercion with an energy of curiosity? What would that do? If you were to soften the edges of that coercive energy and to allow it to transform into curiosity and you were to say, man, I don't like that you're saying that.
And I don't agree with it, but I'd like to know more about how you came to believe that was true. I'd like to understand when you see the way that that impacts me. I would think that that would make you feel this way, but instead it makes you feel that way. Can you explain that to me? I'd like to understand that better. that to me is an energy that almost counterintuitively that's an energy that can lead to change.
It's disarming, right? It gets, it gets, it gets the other party out of a defensive position. So even though you're not trying to change, oftentimes we find that that we do try to change. You know, there's a difference between a goal and a result. When change no longer is the goal change often becomes the result. Isn't that weird? The way that works. You often by, by not trying to get that thing, you end up with that thing.
Jonathan Merritt (01:05:26.115)
That's the miracle of it all. So, we make sure that more statements end in a question mark than an exclamation point. And then the fifth one is, and this is just kind of overarching for friends and family members is never forget that the people who will cry at your funeral matter more than the people who populate your social media feeds. And that's a big one.
because these days it's like someone shows up in your Facebook feed. They don't know you. They didn't give birth to you. They didn't go to college with you. They've never cried with you. They don't know your middle name. They don't know what you prefer for breakfast. And yet we will be encouraged to act.
Kim Rapach (01:05:56.609)
Amen.
Jonathan Merritt (01:06:23.381)
In ways that they would like us to act simply because they have a voice in a forum over and against the people who do know us, who have walked with us. you know, the one thing you can't make in life, as they say, is old friends. And sometimes we throw away old friends at the advice of strangers. And I think that's generally a bad practice. So I make sure that the, the.
the voices that I'm valuing are the voices that I know are committed to walking this earth with me. And again, this is not saying, you know, there's the old way of saying like, family matters most and stick with the family and protect the family and you know, everyone else be damned. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that your family always gets a pass or
somebody, somebody simply because somebody, is invested in your life that they get, they get a get out of jail free card, or you can excuse their bad behavior or they shouldn't be held to account for the ways in which they're creating harm. I'm not saying those things at all actually, because you love them because you want to continue to walk this journey with them. You do want to invest the energy, the hard work that is required to
protect yourself to make sure that the relationship that you have isn't perpetuating harm. but what I, I think we, we want to be really, really careful with is that we're not valuing the opinions of people who don't have our best interests in mind, have not invested in us in any real and tangible way. And in a, in a, a digital age, I think it's far too easy to overvalue the voices.
that are not there to really carry us through the difficult moments in life.
Kim Rapach (01:08:26.478)
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. It's so much of the premise of the work that I do as a coach, right? Working with artists and entrepreneurs and entertainers. We're literally telling an entire group of people that that's what the goal is. And I'm over here like, no, no, no, no, you will lose yourself and you will hurt yourself and you'll hurt other people. Right. And so, and also my concern is we're raising a generation of youth.
to believe that their worth or their value is in the social media and the likes and going viral and all these things. And, you know, there's so many people who have gone viral, who it hurt them more than it helped them. And it wasn't what they thought it would be. And I see it over and over and over again. And so so glad that you said that, like really cultivate the relationships of people who are willing to do this journey with you and not lose your worth.
to strangers who in a hot second would ditch you, cancel you, hurt you, lie about you, move on to the next person, betray you, abandon you. mean, and so that's why think it's really important also just to really know who you are and to know your foundation, to have your foundation of your own values and your own spirituality and your own sense of knowing yourself and the world and what you believe.
Jonathan Merritt (01:09:37.282)
That's right.
Jonathan Merritt (01:09:55.008)
Yeah, I totally agree.
Kim Rapach (01:09:59.172)
How did you, so, I mean, it fascinates me to hear you talk about these values, I guess, with your family of how you interact with each other. We stay curious. We don't elicit other family members. mean, that's so common. It's so toxic, but it's so common. Did you all have a conversation of like, are the rules, here's the agreement, here's the, how did that come to be?
Jonathan Merritt (01:10:27.381)
No, in fact, I wish we, I wish we would have, you know, we've, this is what's been emerging over the last 12 years. And, I'm, I'm sharing it because what I wish had happened is when the, when the whole house came tumbling down and we had to really rebuild it. And I didn't know that it would ever be rebuilt. I wish somebody had said.
Here's a jumpstart. Here's a, here's a best practices manual. Here's a guide for making it through. And I just, I didn't have that. So, you know, I think there are, there are.
Kim Rapach (01:11:10.488)
I think we should print it and digitize it and give it to everyone. Everyone needs it. I'm gonna personally put it my personal playbook. So thank you.
Jonathan Merritt (01:11:15.61)
my gosh, thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's probably even, you know, there's probably more than five, there's probably 50. And I should sit down and think about some of those, those, those best practices or guidelines. And again, they're just their best practices to eat the fish and spit out the bones. If you think something doesn't work for you, or if it doesn't promote your own safety and wellbeing, then you know, this is not the gospel truth. These, these are not written in red letters, but
Kim Rapach (01:11:27.278)
sure.
Kim Rapach (01:11:41.954)
Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (01:11:49.409)
They have worked for me and so I'm sharing them in the hopes that they might be helpful for someone else.
Kim Rapach (01:11:56.164)
Yeah, thank you. So are there any other mental health practices that you would offer that you have? Like are there any non-negotiables that you have or things that you do on a regular basis to maintain your mental wellness?
Jonathan Merritt (01:12:10.379)
Yes. Well, you know, I'm, I'm in the unfortunate, situation where, I was, I was diagnosed with, anxiety disorder and I have had depressive episodes in my life and the medicine I am, I am, as you would call it treatment resistant. I can take a certain medicines.
but the most effective medicines have really bad side effects. So I've tried all the best SSRIs and they just, the side effects are as bad as the symptoms. So I've had to find non-medicinal ways to cope and...
You know, I had somebody today who, one of my best friends who wrote me and said, Hey, you know, you've been off Lexapro for so long at this point and this person is on Lexapro and what do you do to stay? feel like it seems like you're doing pretty well. What do you do? I, I do a lot of very intentional journaling and processing a ton. some mornings I have to do a whole hour.
I will wake up and it, starts, you know, the anxiety taps me on the shoulder and starts talking and I'll be on the verge of a panic attack, you know, and I have to, I get up, I grabbed my pen, I grabbed my notebook and I start writing. it really, began as a practice. I was doing the artist way and it was a practice of, of morning pages.
where you just clear it out. And I'll tell you, even if all you do is morning pages, three handwritten, free flowing stream of consciousness thoughts, the second you wake up, even if you do just that, I'm telling you, it will have a positive effect on your mental wellbeing. gets the things that are in inside of you have to be moved outside of you so that they
Jonathan Merritt (01:14:27.899)
are separated from you, that you can evaluate them, that you can judge what is or isn't for you so that you can look at it. It's a way of realizing that you are not your thoughts. You are not what's coming up. And just telling yourself that doesn't do a lot. You have to embody it. And I embody it by getting those thoughts outside of me.
I have a whole series in the back of all my notebooks and it has changed, over time. I've started to realize the lies that come up when I write in stream of consciousness. You know, there's, a lot of people are, are, fans these days. a lot of people are fans of internal family systems, right? These that, that, that actually we're not one person. We're a whole bunch of people inside.
There's the worrier and there's the inner critic and there are all these people inside. The only way that you can kind of begin to unscramble that egg or pull that yarn apart is by, by externalizing it, externalizing all of that, that cloud of internal voices. And then you can look at it and go, I see you. I know you. I know what you're trying to, I know you're trying to protect me. I know you want to keep me safe.
I know you've learned some things that are terribly untrue. and, you can begin to hold those parts of you accountable and you don't do it by stuffing them away or pretending they don't exist. You, you welcome them to the conversation and then you also with curiosity. and you know, if you, if you make something your enemy, you never get rid of it.
Kim Rapach (01:16:12.098)
with curiosity.
Jonathan Merritt (01:16:21.333)
If you try to stuff something away, it will be there forever. But if you welcome it as a friend, then you're able to step away from it. And I'm also able then with a series of affirmations I have, they're sort of custom designed for the lies that those parts of me are speaking in that season of life. And so I do a lot.
of truth telling to myself, a lot of truth telling. And so, you know, that for me has become a very important practice. I now incorporate prayer into it. So in addition to the journaling, in addition to the affirmations, I also pray in a dialogical form. I pray and I listen, I pray and I listen, I pray and I listen.
And for me, there's no page requirement. I just go until it's done. And I have to say it is a huge investment. I wish that there were a pill that I could take that would replace that work. Even if I were able to take SSRIs, which by the way, I used to take those and they
Kim Rapach (01:17:30.158)
Yeah.
Jonathan Merritt (01:17:46.355)
they were necessary to get me through. And you know what, I have a bottle of Xanax downstairs if there's an emergency or I can grab a clonopin, you know, I've got a clonopin and I can go for that. I'm not anti in any way, anti-medicine. But because of the limitations I have, that's been my salvation. What I wish I would have known is I wish it hadn't, I wish even when
I were on those medications for all those years. I wish I had been doing this practice anyway, because there's a benefit to this practice, whether you're on medication or not, that it will promote your mental wellbeing and your mental wellness. for me, and I'll tell you when I don't do it, when I skip it, it's like a different person gets out of bed.
Kim Rapach (01:18:40.452)
Mm For me this time of year, just the season of winter, I my non negotiables have to go from 85 % is good to 95 % is necessary. Just to make sure you know, I so relate to the anxiety, I can literally wake up terrified. Like before I open my eyes, all of sudden, I'm just terrified. And there's no logic to it. But getting curious and getting
Jonathan Merritt (01:18:51.917)
Yes.
Jonathan Merritt (01:19:05.641)
Uh-huh.
Kim Rapach (01:19:08.14)
For me, I have to get to the gym too, but getting in the journal, I will ask you, I mean, I feel like I can ask you anything, but in your journaling every day, sometimes an hour, how much of that would you say is spent in grief or tears? Because I feel like people don't understand that grief is part of the healing process. And so I'm curious what, what your perspective is on that.
Jonathan Merritt (01:19:36.397)
So, you know, a few years ago, I added to my regiment, not just my therapist, but I added a spiritual director. And my spiritual director would start by saying, how's God showing up in your life right now? And it would allow me to think about, if I would say it in one word, how's God coming to me in this season? And there are times where God was coming to me in provision. I could just see God making provision for me.
or abundance. There were times where God came in gratitude. There was a period, a long period where God was coming in my grief. And for me, it's seasonal. It's in different movements throughout the year. I'm not in a grief season right now, but I would just weep. Every time I would, I mean, it was like the first word would start and tears would start flowing and flowing and flowing. And even in the day,
If I were to talk about the thing that came up in the journal, I would start to cry. And my spiritual director is a Jesuit priest. And he said that Ignatius used to speak about the gift of tears, that it was actually a special gift that God would give to us in seasons where tears would be the way that we would encounter the divine and that we would experience divine healing.
I find that when I'm in seasons of grief, my grief is so big that it overtakes everything else. It's the only thing almost that I can do. Sometimes grief will break through in small ways in other seasons. Could be in a season of deep gratitude and grief will break through. But for me, the way that I experience grief, comes in waves where it is
When it knocks on my door, it's like it walks out and clears the room. And we have time together, just us. And that's how it is until grief decides to go home. So for me, it has come often. And when it does, it's very intense and acute. And I do some real, real deep grieving. And...
Kim Rapach (01:21:40.728)
Mm-hmm.
Jonathan Merritt (01:22:03.519)
I'm not somebody who I didn't grow up really being. I wasn't like crying was a sign of weakness and I hate crying and I hated crying, but, now I'm somebody who can cry quite easily and I don't like to do it in front of people. still, but I found it to be an incredibly cathartic tool in my.
my time of journaling. But that's not the season that I'm in right now.
Kim Rapach (01:22:34.532)
Sure, sure. Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I feel like for many people who might, whether they're wrestling with life or mental health or trauma, grief can be such a scary piece of it. And so I feel like the way you just described it is really human and normalizing and validating.
Jonathan Merritt (01:22:53.163)
Yeah. You know, when I'll tell you one thing that really one season, when I was working on my gunkle in me, my children's book, you know, people, when they first get that book, they go, we get it. You're the gunkle. And I even kind of look like the gunkle, you know, I mean, my wonderful illustrator, Joanna Corrello, she's such a genius. She's illustrated a lot of beautiful books and she did such a good job.
she did sort of the gunkle sort of looks like me, which is so fun and interesting and playful. it wasn't until I got the book in the mail and opened it for the first time. And I realized I'm Henry. it's like I was writing a book from my current self to my past self.
It was like it in that book. It was like my present day self knelt down on the ground and looked my boy self, my childhood self in the eyes and told him what he needed to hear and said to him what he didn't hear but needed. And I started to just weep. for me, that was such a season. if you, think as a practice, as a, you want to do a
a real deep practice that will kind of lead you into grief work. You can do it with visualizing your childhood self as your present day self and saying what that childhood self needs to hear. Even my therapist and I, we've done things before where she'll say, you know, I remember saying, well, I feel like I'm so mad that I wasted my twenties.
should be the one of the, your 20s should be, I'm now 42, your 20s should be, you know, one of the best decades of your life. And I wasted it living in the back of an evangelical closet. And she was able to say, I'd love for you to leave. We were on Zoom. I'd love for you to step out. And when you come back, I'd like to talk to 18 year old Jonathan.
Jonathan Merritt (01:25:16.387)
So she come, I come back and she says, 18 year old Jonathan, I was just talking, you know, to 41 at this time, 41 year old Jonathan. And here's what he said. He said, you know, you should have done this and you should have done that. And why didn't you do this? And then I was able to explain, I have no resources. I, and my whole life is, and I'm, and I'm so afraid and I'm explaining this. And then she says, you know, thank you for sharing. Could you step out?
I'd like to talk to 41 year old Jonathan. And so I would step out of the frame and I would come back and she would say, know, Jonathan, just had a conversation with 18 year old Jonathan. Here's what he said about what you said. And I began to have these compassionate grief filled conversations with previous aversions of myself.
and they were unbelievably liberating. All of the anger that I had, all of the misunderstanding, all of the animosity that I had, all of the regret that I was living with was then able to, through the portal of grief, melt away.
And so grief can be, I think, an incredible tool when it is employed in bringing together different versions of yourself to have conversations that are overdue.
Kim Rapach (01:26:53.57)
Yeah, yeah. I love that type of somatic work, you know, where you really dive into what's happening with your body, and what version of you is coming forward. And, you know, you can even connect that with IFS therapy. And, you know, the whole premise of there are no bad parts. And there are younger versions of ourselves. Again, you know, huge piece of my coaching, but there's younger versions that are saying, Hey,
Jonathan Merritt (01:27:10.925)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Rapach (01:27:20.066)
I'm still here. We didn't really resolve that. And I would like to.
Jonathan Merritt (01:27:24.483)
Yeah. And they're still alive. remember, one of my, one of my literary heroes is Barbara Brown Taylor. And, I got to meet her, for the first time years ago, we were teaching at a writing conference together and I asked her a question. said, you know, I have all of your old sermons and all of your old, you know, 20, 30 years ago, the things that you taught. And I wonder how you think about those things today.
because they're so unlike the Barbara Brown Taylor I know now. And she said, well, you know, I just think that all of us were like rings in a tree. And that was Barbara Brown Taylor, and that is Barbara Brown Taylor.
And for me, it was so eye-opening to realize that the previous versions of ourselves still live inside us and that they can be accessed. And a lot of the data shows neurologically that when we encounter those parts of ourselves and we reignite those neural pathways, that the brain almost experiences it as if you're back in that
Kim Rapach (01:28:27.597)
Absolutely.
Jonathan Merritt (01:28:46.377)
in that moment in the past and you can do a lot of healing, present healing of past events. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing feature of our design? So I found that to be one of the keys that has opened up the lockbox that holds the healing inside for me.
Kim Rapach (01:28:54.892)
It's so amazing. It's so powerful.
Kim Rapach (01:29:07.118)
Yeah. Are you familiar with the Enneagram?
Jonathan Merritt (01:29:10.751)
yes. Yeah. What type are you?
Kim Rapach (01:29:12.428)
I love the enneagram. I'm a six with a seven wing. How about you?
Jonathan Merritt (01:29:17.359)
I am a three with a two wing. Yeah. Yes. And the three will go to six and the six will go to three sometimes. That's right.
Kim Rapach (01:29:20.644)
Okay, all right. So we're still in the same triad. But one of the reasons I Yes, yeah. So when in my coaching, what I love about it is, it can often be somewhat like I have fast a fast track through what's coming forward, right? Because there's different centers of intelligence based on your type.
And so where your triggers are, we can go back and we can say, okay, where do you feel that in your body? Okay. In your, in your heart, in your chest. Okay. Well, the dominant emotion of the heart center is shame. And so we're not going to judge the shame. doesn't mean that you're sitting here feeling embarrassed, but it really opens up this pathway to, okay. And how old do you feel? And let's get curious. What did life look like when you were that age?
and you felt this way and the story always comes forward. And then we get to go back and talk to that version and, you know, repair those neural pathways and rewrite the story and heal. it's so, it's so powerful. So I love anytime I hear someone talk about that experience and that somatic experience of healing, because I just can't imagine life without it.
Jonathan Merritt (01:30:38.167)
Yeah, yeah, same, same.
Kim Rapach (01:30:45.966)
So one last question. What would you say to someone who is struggling with their, you know, their mental health or where to start or maybe just like, what's the point? And you know, this doesn't replace mental health care. But for those of us who've been there, what would you say to somebody, you know, in a few words?
Jonathan Merritt (01:31:20.291)
Well, I think that the healing journey, one of the reasons that we don't want to start oftentimes is because it feels so big. It's like, how am going to get from here to there? And of course, you know, as the old saying goes, the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
Well, where do you begin? Well, the one other part you have to remember is this is a road that is best walked in company of others. And so what I would say is, is to begin to assemble the team of people who will walk with you on this journey. Who are the safe people that you can invite in and simply admit you're not committing to anything, but simply admit
A curiosity, maybe the curiosity has become a desire. Maybe the desire has become an intention. So giving yourself the resources you need, the communal resources you need for me, I think is a great first step because every time when I look back at my own healing journey, every time I've taken another step.
not every time, but oftentimes. Oftentimes it was because someone who I loved and who loved me, someone who I trusted, who trusts me, got curious with me about a potential next step and then encouraged me to take it. I went to see after I was very painfully outed 12 years ago,
And I had a friend of mine in Colorado who said, you know, there's a therapist out here who works with people in intensives where you come out for several weeks and you spend three hours a day. And what would it look like? Would you be interested in that? And I said, you know, I think I would. What if I gave you my car so you could drive out there and what if my friend let you stay in their house? They just live down the road.
Jonathan Merritt (01:33:46.403)
And what if, and that was the beginning. In 2019, when my life really had fallen apart, I'd just given out. was having a breakdown. had a friend who said to me, you know, I hear there's this place in Tennessee called Onsite and you can go and do a week there where you give up your phone.
and you do this really interesting methodology that helps to get to the heart of the trauma that so many of us live with. And I'd be happy to help you make it there.
You know, there were people at every step of the way who recommended something or who were simply a listening ear. Even, you know, the artist's way was something that I found through my friends at church. Hey, have you ever thought about trying this? Well, you know, there's a group of people who are going to do it this summer. Why don't you join this group? And that, that has become the practice that has sustained me through this period.
You know, there have been people all along the way, my people, my team of trusted loved ones and confidants who helped to guide me. And it's so much easier to walk the road when you know you're not walking alone. And that for me is a core principle. It's easier to walk the road when you know you're not walking it alone. So I would just start there. Don't start with a commitment.
Don't start with a new year's resolutions or goal setting or anything that feels too big or too far or ask too much of you. Simply begin by putting together your community, the community of people who will walk with you wherever you decide to go, whenever you decide to do it.
Kim Rapach (01:35:44.58)
Thank you.
Thank you for being here.
Jonathan Merritt (01:35:50.371)
It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me today.
Kim Rapach (01:35:54.03)
Thank you for being such a light.
Jonathan Merritt (01:35:57.613)
Thank you.
Kim Rapach (01:35:58.434)
I feel like I've had healing from this conversation. So I appreciate you.
Jonathan Merritt (01:36:01.539)
gosh, well the pleasure has been all mine.
Kim Rapach (01:36:07.426)
Well, I look forward to keeping in touch and just thanks again.