1
00:00:00,115 --> 00:00:01,435
sound better.

2
00:00:01,435 --> 00:00:06,175
But to kick it off, I'll just kind of do a
little mock one and then hand it to you

3
00:00:06,175 --> 00:00:09,535
for an overview to introduce yourself just
in case anyone hasn't heard us.

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00:00:09,535 --> 00:00:11,211
So with that...

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00:00:12,723 --> 00:00:14,003
Looks like we are all good.

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00:00:14,003 --> 00:00:15,383
Okay, cool.

7
00:00:15,783 --> 00:00:16,693
Good afternoon.

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00:00:16,693 --> 00:00:18,083
Great connections listeners.

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00:00:18,083 --> 00:00:20,923
I'm excited to be speaking with Lew Cox
today.

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00:00:20,923 --> 00:00:24,243
I know we've had him on a previous
episode, but I feel like even though it's

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only been a few months since we had you
last on, there's been so much that has

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happened in the space, good and bad.

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But I think it's been really cool
following some of the really great

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products that your team has been
launching.

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In addition to everything else going on
that we're talking about today.

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So I'm really excited to have you back,
but just in case anyone's not familiar,

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00:00:40,753 --> 00:00:41,843
Lew, can you give a...

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00:00:41,843 --> 00:00:46,051
little information about yourself and what
your team does.

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Absolutely, Chase.

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00:00:47,340 --> 00:00:49,400
It's a pleasure to be back on Grid
Connections.

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The last time we had a discussion, I think
we really got into the nitty gritty about

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some of the benefits that not only our
products provide, but a lot of the

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companies in this space are working on.

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00:00:57,460 --> 00:01:02,060
Just for those who are new to who I am and
who X -Charge is, I'm Lew Cox.

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I am the Senior Director of Business
Development for X -Charge here in North

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America.

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And X -Charge is an EV charging OEM where
we design...

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and manufacture DC fast charging products
kind of across the gambit, including some

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products that have integrated bi
-directional batteries.

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We really thought that there and still do
believe that there is a space currently

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for very grid constrained areas and
providing infrastructure for them to

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provide DC fast charging.

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I think if EV adoption is going to go
where we all want it to go collectively,

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we have to attack all of the issues kind
of at the same time and that...

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that doesn't involve leaving behind those
areas that are maybe a little bit more

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difficult to attack.

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So batteries help us get that done.

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Yeah, I think that's what I've really
enjoyed about, even our last conversation

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00:01:49,987 --> 00:01:53,747
and my apologies to anyone listening, if
they hear a dog panting, that's a dog I'm

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currently watching.

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But, yeah, I think our last conversation,
we just barely scratched the surface on

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this topic specifically, and really talked
about the state of like EV charging and a

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lot of, we're seeing in that space.

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00:02:06,127 --> 00:02:10,227
And I think that's what I love about why
you start this podcast is you kind of get

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that trifecta of like renewable energy and
new just energy challenges.

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00:02:14,419 --> 00:02:17,819
to obviously electric vehicles and
electric transportation.

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And then there's kind of the third
component, which is actually making all

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these work together through the grid,
obviously.

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And then really what we're seeing the big
need is through newer and smarter grids,

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like what is leveraged with microgrid
technology, and then obviously how energy

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storage plays into that, kind of making
the system we have even much more

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efficient and ideally have a higher
uptime.

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So with that, I'll kind of, I know you
wanted to talk quite a bit about it, but

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like, like we're, let's take a step back
just in case I feel like the last couple

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of episodes have been pretty electric
vehicle heavy.

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So for those who may not be as familiar
with micro grids, what's a good way for

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people to think about how that is
different from the current American grid

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here in North America?

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Yeah, I mean, in its simplest terms,
right, when we talk about a microgrid,

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what that is, is a localized community of
not only generation, but storage and

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distribution.

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that doesn't rely solely on connection to
a larger generation source further away

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from where you're using the energy.

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The concept behind why a microgrid makes
sense is that you can take a small

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community or a series of buildings or even
a specific property almost entirely to

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self -sufficiency through the use of
distributed energy resources.

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And when we say that, we talk about things
like battery support.

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We talk about generation on site like
solar installations, and a combination of

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those things will allow you...

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to remove what otherwise would be a load
on the grid, you know, and what could be a

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grid constrained area and localize their
usage and their generation and

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distribution to one specific subset of
properties or types of infrastructure,

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which typically makes it more scalable for
what you want to do in the future without

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having to rely on the utility company so
heavily.

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You know, I think one, that was an awesome
summary of micro grids, but two, I think

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one of the things you mentioned there is a
really great point that I think a lot of

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people, it seems like some people when you
start talking about micro grids might just

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know enough to be dangerous.

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And so they think that micro grids means
that it's kind of its own removed kind of

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off the grid completely.

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And can it be?

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Yes.

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But it's the idea is actually that it's
working in kind of in tandem with the

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power grid.

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and ideally improving it and making it a
more resilient resource for everyone.

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Yeah, I think it's really important what
you said there and that, you know, while

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it can be totally self -sufficient and not
take anything from, you know, the greater

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grid, I think the more appropriate use of
a microgrid is to provide support to

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neighboring properties, to the grid
itself.

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And in order to do that, right, I mean, if
you can take your load almost entirely off

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of what you're relying on from the utility
and then you have excess.

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When the utility needs it, being able to
provide that excess bi -directionally to

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your neighbors, to your neighborhood, to
the utility itself in the event of a

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demand response sort of situation, those
are all very helpful.

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And I think the utilities more recently
have gotten really on board with

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supporting initiatives that help provide
them with the more resiliency that they're

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looking for during the electrification of
the United States.

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For sure.

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And I think it's a really cool thing that
we're there.

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There's obviously a lot of politics that
kind of involved in kind of maybe

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misperceptions in the space, but I I've
always thought that there's kind of two

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really cool things that micro grids really
help unlock.

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And one is redundancy.

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Should there be a blackout or something?

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but also then kind of that, resiliency
factor and being kind of a net positive

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and then almost kind of flipping around
and being coming a, very strong business

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case.

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for that microgrid, especially if like in
the example you just taught me, like a

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small housing community possibly having
their own microgrid that depending on how

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it's set up, you can even sell that excess
energy back and find some really great win

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-win scenarios for a lot of different use
cases.

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So I know one of the things you kind of
wanted to talk about was on the kind of

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status of microgrids.

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In your exposure at X -Charger, what have
you, and my apologies, how long have you

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been now with the company?

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So I've been with X -Charge both as a
consultant and then now a full -time

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employee for the better part of two years.

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My prior role, I was in at a large EPC or
engineering procurement and construction

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company where we did a lot of design,
engineering and construction for all kinds

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of public infrastructure, be that cellular
telecommunications, satellite earth

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station, power substation were necessary
as well as EV charging infrastructure.

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And over the last four years, I've moved
specifically into EV charging.

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And then I was consulting with X -Charge
as they were migrating their business from

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Europe to the North American market.

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And then it made sense, you know, about a
better part of a year ago to bring me on

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full time and head up business development
for them here.

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Yep.

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I'd be kind of curious.

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I've definitely heard a lot of things as
to where the status of micro grids were

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during COVID and before COVID.

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I would be just kind of curious to hear
like, and probably good, maybe a

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background information for like listeners.

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Like the last two years you've been doing
this, like where have you seen the changes

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and kind of the opportunities?

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Absolutely.

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I think when we talk about

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microgrids and the growth and proper the
popularity for them, we have to talk about

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the price of batteries, right?

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Because battery technology is essential to
the microgrid creation and removing that

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peak load off of certain properties off of
certain, you know, high demand resources

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like EV chargers where you can quadruple
or maybe even 10x the amount of power

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coming out of a property that wasn't
designed for that originally.

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A microgrid or battery solution helps
really smooth that out.

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But a couple of years ago, thinking back
to 2020 when I was in the space, right,

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and we were working on infrastructure
projects, most people I talked to were

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saying, that's so far in the future,
batteries are cost prohibitive, it's

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really not scalable, you know, what are we
gonna do with the batteries when they're

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dead?

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And then very rapidly over the last four
years, we've gotten much smarter about,

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you know, the cell costs.

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And I'm sure you've seen the charts online
where it's like exponentially less

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expensive, you know, to get some of it.

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it went, it was starting to go down.

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Then went exponentially more expensive
because of COVID and supply things.

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And now we're, for multiple reasons, but a
big part is supply.

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we're now seeing it really go down, which
I think if you're in that space, it can be

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a little scary.

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But I think for others, I think just for
micro grids and a lot of those reliant to

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technology in general, this is a huge,
step four that's really kind of helping

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accelerate this.

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And I think, just one thing that it is
kind of.

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Yeah.

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Innovation in general typically drives,
you know, efficiencies and costs and

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you're starting to see that with
microgrids and battery technology where

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it's now much more accessible for types of
projects and folks who maybe aren't the

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utility directly, right, to start to
provide these resources to the projects

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they're working on, to start to think
about load management in a more

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intelligent way than just make a 7
megawatt request from the utility and wait

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for the right transformer.

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Now you can...

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dramatically speed up a project and
increase its profitability if you have the

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right kind of solution designed from a
battery and a bi -directional microgrid

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perspective, especially if you take
advantage of some of the rebates that are

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offered through the federal government,
not only for the batteries, but for any

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sort of generation via solar.

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Yeah, and I think we've talked about EVs
and it just kind of shook free of my mind

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00:10:06,051 --> 00:10:09,771
by you saying like the experiences
microgrids and what people were thinking

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00:10:09,771 --> 00:10:12,091
just a couple of years ago about like,
these are so far out.

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And well, one of that technologies, I
don't think it's mature as quickly as

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microgrids have is kind of like vehicle to
grid or vehicle to X technologies.

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And we're starting to see some of that
develop and good and some of it shake out

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that it still might be a little ways away,
but.

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I'm curious if there's been any, I know
we've talked about vehicle to grid

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potential a lot on this podcast.

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00:10:32,053 --> 00:10:35,322
I'm just curious if that's something
you've been having more conversations

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00:10:35,322 --> 00:10:38,631
about lately in your own discussions.

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00:10:38,664 --> 00:10:39,644
We certainly have.

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00:10:39,644 --> 00:10:45,424
I think where the most use from a V to X
or a vehicle to grid use case comes into

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play is when you talk about fleet vehicles
that are parked, you know, for long

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00:10:49,264 --> 00:10:50,974
periods of time after they complete their
routes.

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00:10:50,974 --> 00:10:52,804
These could be last mile delivery
vehicles.

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00:10:52,804 --> 00:10:54,484
These could be a series of school buses.

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You know, there are several companies in
the space.

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00:10:56,512 --> 00:11:01,092
that focus on that bi -directional AC
level two charging, where you can tap into

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00:11:01,092 --> 00:11:04,352
these vehicles substantially larger
battery than commercial or than passenger

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00:11:04,352 --> 00:11:05,532
vehicles, right?

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00:11:05,532 --> 00:11:10,832
And you can use that energy to not only
offset the charging of other vehicles, but

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00:11:10,832 --> 00:11:14,432
potentially even offset the entire utility
bill for getting them up and running in

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00:11:14,432 --> 00:11:15,352
the first place.

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00:11:15,352 --> 00:11:20,992
If you can get battery connected
resources, interacting in a way with the

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00:11:20,992 --> 00:11:25,172
utility that helps them out in a demand
event, it can be a very profitable

202
00:11:25,172 --> 00:11:25,824
adventure.

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00:11:25,824 --> 00:11:29,424
And I think if we're talking about
electrifying every vehicle in the country,

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00:11:29,424 --> 00:11:33,724
at some point, it's probably a necessary
venture, right, to be able to use those

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00:11:33,724 --> 00:11:37,000
batteries as resources more than as
strains on our grid.

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00:11:37,843 --> 00:11:40,103
No, that's a great point.

207
00:11:41,643 --> 00:11:46,723
Kind of going back to microgrid
specifically, where are you seeing the

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00:11:46,723 --> 00:11:52,903
most, I guess the interest or like when
people, because with vehicle to grid, I

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00:11:52,903 --> 00:11:57,523
think it was always just to use this kind
of an example, people kind of got the idea

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00:11:57,523 --> 00:11:59,383
quickly, like, that's a cool use case.

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00:11:59,383 --> 00:12:03,363
But then the practicality of it and like
the execution of it became a lot more

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00:12:03,363 --> 00:12:04,317
complicated.

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00:12:11,543 --> 00:12:12,383
Sure.

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00:12:12,383 --> 00:12:14,983
then when you start like actually looking
about the technology and what we need to

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00:12:14,983 --> 00:12:16,183
do, a lot of it's already there.

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00:12:16,183 --> 00:12:19,603
Whereas vehicle to grid, it's kind of, you
need the right charger, you need the right

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00:12:19,603 --> 00:12:21,363
vehicle, you need the right software, all
this stuff.

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00:12:21,363 --> 00:12:26,243
Whereas the others, it's still new, but a
lot of it's already there, kind of, and

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00:12:26,243 --> 00:12:28,581
something you can kind of take off the
shelf a lot easier.

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00:12:28,688 --> 00:12:31,928
Sure, and I think when you're the utility
and you're looking at various projects

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00:12:31,928 --> 00:12:35,208
that are coming through your development
pipeline, when you have a dedicated

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00:12:35,208 --> 00:12:38,728
distributed energy resource, that's a lot
more attractive to you because you can

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00:12:38,728 --> 00:12:39,828
depend on that, right?

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00:12:39,828 --> 00:12:40,848
You can depend on it.

225
00:12:40,848 --> 00:12:42,678
You can pull energy from it much more
quickly.

226
00:12:42,678 --> 00:12:45,792
You can have a one hour system dump
several megawatts, whereas

227
00:12:45,792 --> 00:12:50,092
In a vehicle to grid situation, you're
limited by the capacity of the charger

228
00:12:50,092 --> 00:12:53,831
that it's plugged into, which could be 11
kilowatt from a bidirectionality

229
00:12:53,831 --> 00:12:54,932
perspective.

230
00:12:55,032 --> 00:12:59,072
On a really fast one, yeah, some are even
slower at seven or lower.

231
00:12:59,072 --> 00:13:03,012
So you would need hundreds of them at the
same time in order to get any tangible

232
00:13:03,012 --> 00:13:04,852
value as a utility company.

233
00:13:04,852 --> 00:13:08,772
So what we have seen, at least in our
space recently, is projects that have

234
00:13:08,772 --> 00:13:12,332
these dedicated distributed energy
resources or batteries or microgrids, et

235
00:13:12,332 --> 00:13:12,992
cetera.

236
00:13:12,992 --> 00:13:17,592
they're getting prioritized by the utility
because it's not creating demand, it's

237
00:13:17,592 --> 00:13:18,952
solving a problem for them.

238
00:13:18,952 --> 00:13:22,392
And that allows them to serve more of
their customers more efficiently by not

239
00:13:22,392 --> 00:13:27,172
having to dedicate a transformer to this
project that otherwise could go without

240
00:13:27,172 --> 00:13:27,692
it, right?

241
00:13:27,692 --> 00:13:29,980
Specifically related to DC fast charging.

242
00:13:31,059 --> 00:13:32,339
I'm curious.

243
00:13:32,339 --> 00:13:34,359
I mean, you mentioned you live in San
Diego.

244
00:13:34,359 --> 00:13:39,899
Like if I'm listening to this and I live
in a larger city like a San Diego and what

245
00:13:39,899 --> 00:13:45,079
might be an example of a micro grid
implementation that like a utility would

246
00:13:45,079 --> 00:13:48,699
be doing in a larger city right now that I
could see if either I could become a part

247
00:13:48,699 --> 00:13:53,131
of or something that might actually impact
me on a day to day basis, for example.

248
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,740
Yeah, you know, I think what's a really
fun use case is we have a project in

249
00:13:56,740 --> 00:14:01,360
development right now in downtown San
Diego near the airport where there is a

250
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,660
donut store, you know, with a drive
-through that doesn't have a huge load and

251
00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:09,792
it's in a very condensed, you know, older
infrastructure type of neighborhood.

252
00:14:09,792 --> 00:14:13,901
where bringing in new three -phase 480
power is extremely cost prohibitive.

253
00:14:13,901 --> 00:14:17,492
So we looked at all the various methods on
how to electrify this parking lot because

254
00:14:17,492 --> 00:14:18,672
of its location.

255
00:14:18,672 --> 00:14:23,172
And when we got down to it, our Net Zero
Series products, the bi -directional grid

256
00:14:23,172 --> 00:14:27,912
forming batteries, allows us not only to
take the entire load of that donut shop

257
00:14:27,912 --> 00:14:29,272
off of the grid, right?

258
00:14:29,272 --> 00:14:34,432
But we get to skip what would otherwise be
new line drops and several hundred feet of

259
00:14:34,432 --> 00:14:37,568
run from the point of connection for the
utility for SDG &E.

260
00:14:37,568 --> 00:14:42,168
And that's a project where sure it's a
very small microgrid and we're helping a

261
00:14:42,168 --> 00:14:43,268
donut store, right?

262
00:14:43,268 --> 00:14:47,928
But we're also providing DC fast charging
to the neighborhood without dramatically

263
00:14:47,928 --> 00:14:51,528
stressing out SDG &E in the process or
waiting two and a half years in order to

264
00:14:51,528 --> 00:14:53,828
get the right infrastructure to make that
project happen.

265
00:14:53,828 --> 00:14:58,168
So that's an example, a real world example
that I'm working on right now where using

266
00:14:58,168 --> 00:15:01,628
batteries, using intelligent
infrastructure or distributed energy

267
00:15:01,628 --> 00:15:05,728
resources allows us to speed up the
process, help out the utility and moving

268
00:15:05,728 --> 00:15:06,368
forward.

269
00:15:06,368 --> 00:15:10,408
that donut shop no longer pulls from the
grid during peak times because we have

270
00:15:10,408 --> 00:15:13,011
that bidirectionality incorporated into
our design.

271
00:15:13,011 --> 00:15:13,931
No, that's great.

272
00:15:13,931 --> 00:15:18,091
I feel like I that was completely
incidental or like kind of unintentional

273
00:15:18,091 --> 00:15:20,711
of that example, but I don't think I could
have teach you more up for that.

274
00:15:20,711 --> 00:15:21,871
That's great.

275
00:15:22,821 --> 00:15:27,951
with that, I guess, I mean, there's been
talk about it.

276
00:15:27,951 --> 00:15:30,331
And I think especially as someone who's
been dealing a lot more with the EV

277
00:15:30,331 --> 00:15:33,431
charging space, like one of the big things
right now is like permitting and getting

278
00:15:33,431 --> 00:15:35,141
transformers.

279
00:15:35,331 --> 00:15:39,301
it's really all of this stuff before
anything, any shovels.

280
00:15:39,301 --> 00:15:41,555
It's all that stuff that takes a lot
longer.

281
00:15:41,619 --> 00:15:46,379
Can you share a little bit about how,
obviously like the reduction of

282
00:15:46,379 --> 00:15:49,419
transformers and some of these upgrades,
but are there any other things that kind

283
00:15:49,419 --> 00:15:56,059
of help make a micro grid solution a
better and kind of faster project for

284
00:15:56,059 --> 00:15:58,499
people who might be listening to think
about like, maybe I should approach it

285
00:15:58,499 --> 00:16:02,499
this way instead of doing the more kind of
traditional way with a project they might

286
00:16:02,499 --> 00:16:08,052
be working on or areas in addition where
it saves time in that process.

287
00:16:08,052 --> 00:16:11,732
I mean, I think saving time in general
comes from not needing some of this

288
00:16:11,732 --> 00:16:13,922
extremely limited infrastructure that
we're talking about.

289
00:16:13,922 --> 00:16:17,032
You know, 2000 kVA transformers,
switchgear.

290
00:16:17,032 --> 00:16:20,252
There's such a switchgear shortage in the
country right now that many companies have

291
00:16:20,252 --> 00:16:23,572
resulted to alternatives like H -Frames
where you just bolt on the exact same

292
00:16:23,572 --> 00:16:24,576
components.

293
00:16:24,576 --> 00:16:28,916
get that certified at the field level by
the utility and then use that instead of a

294
00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:29,656
switch gear.

295
00:16:29,656 --> 00:16:32,386
Not as clean, not as neat, but it speeds
up the project.

296
00:16:32,386 --> 00:16:37,256
I think when you start to look at using
batteries to bridge some of that and then

297
00:16:37,256 --> 00:16:40,836
connect directly into house power, which
otherwise would not be possible to power

298
00:16:40,836 --> 00:16:45,296
multiple DC fast chargers, you're using
the existing infrastructure as it is and

299
00:16:45,296 --> 00:16:49,696
then not only kind of skipping the line
for waiting for all that additional

300
00:16:49,696 --> 00:16:50,816
equipment.

301
00:16:50,816 --> 00:16:54,776
but you're taking that load like we talked
about in the donut shop example, we're

302
00:16:54,776 --> 00:16:57,996
taking that load off of the grid moving
forward so that those resources can be

303
00:16:57,996 --> 00:17:00,522
redirected to places that need it by the
utility.

304
00:17:01,299 --> 00:17:02,509
And that's, I mean, that's pretty cool.

305
00:17:02,509 --> 00:17:06,439
And especially in this example where I've
had people who kind of listen to the

306
00:17:06,439 --> 00:17:10,139
podcast, kind of reach out to me and they,
they may be new to the whole idea of EV

307
00:17:10,139 --> 00:17:11,509
charging, but they think it's kind of a
cool thing.

308
00:17:11,509 --> 00:17:14,959
It's like, I own a building, I have this,
what can I do to like actually do it?

309
00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:17,689
And then they start looking in the
logistics and the cost of it.

310
00:17:17,689 --> 00:17:21,419
And it kind of understandably sometimes
scares them off.

311
00:17:21,419 --> 00:17:27,315
Whereas like, this is a great example of
kind of a project that speeds it up.

312
00:17:27,315 --> 00:17:30,655
brings down a lot of the costs and still
makes it a very feasible operation for

313
00:17:30,655 --> 00:17:35,307
both the business and then the addition of
adding charging to the location.

314
00:17:35,448 --> 00:17:38,888
Yeah, what I think is also really
important to focus on and what we focus on

315
00:17:38,888 --> 00:17:42,428
at X -Charge not only internally with our
deployments but with our partners is that

316
00:17:42,428 --> 00:17:46,468
EV charging needs to be a profitable
adventure, you know, without tons of

317
00:17:46,468 --> 00:17:49,528
subsidies, without waiting a decade to get
an ROI.

318
00:17:49,528 --> 00:17:53,308
And in order to do that, you've got to
find a way to get the most amount of

319
00:17:53,308 --> 00:17:55,988
margin you can per kilowatt hour that
you're trading, right?

320
00:17:55,988 --> 00:17:59,828
Because all we're doing is essentially
we're selling kilowatt hours to vehicles

321
00:17:59,828 --> 00:18:01,248
with our technology, right?

322
00:18:01,248 --> 00:18:01,984
And...

323
00:18:01,984 --> 00:18:06,664
Depending on when a vehicle is plugged in,
and we know through untold amounts of data

324
00:18:06,664 --> 00:18:10,004
points that most people are charging
between four in the afternoon and nine p

325
00:18:10,004 --> 00:18:11,424
That's considered peak.

326
00:18:11,424 --> 00:18:15,264
Most people are doing most things that
involve the grid between four and nine p

327
00:18:15,264 --> 00:18:19,744
So if during that time your utility rate
is twice as much as it is at midnight,

328
00:18:19,744 --> 00:18:23,444
you're substantially less profitable in
the time where you're dispensing the most

329
00:18:23,444 --> 00:18:24,384
energy possible.

330
00:18:24,384 --> 00:18:27,624
So if you use batteries and you can
schedule when you want to fill those

331
00:18:27,624 --> 00:18:31,304
batteries, like during super off peak,
midnight to four a

332
00:18:31,328 --> 00:18:35,248
And then during those peak times when you
start to get hit, you're selling energy

333
00:18:35,248 --> 00:18:39,288
that you paid substantially less for,
sometimes half for, right?

334
00:18:39,288 --> 00:18:41,888
And you're still able to service the
customer.

335
00:18:41,888 --> 00:18:46,208
You're more profitable in the distribution
of this energy and that it gets you much

336
00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:49,328
more quickly to ROI, which actually starts
to make EV charging investable.

337
00:18:49,328 --> 00:18:53,388
Some of the most sophisticated investors
in the space right now look at EV charging

338
00:18:53,388 --> 00:18:56,068
at scale and say, it's a little too risky.

339
00:18:56,068 --> 00:18:59,428
There's utilization risk and it's too
expensive from the utility.

340
00:18:59,456 --> 00:19:03,576
when you introduce alternative distributed
resources like batteries, you can start to

341
00:19:03,576 --> 00:19:06,976
solve some of those objections, you know,
at its core.

342
00:19:06,976 --> 00:19:10,396
And it just takes time in order for you to
get the adoption that you need to make

343
00:19:10,396 --> 00:19:13,140
this a very profitable adventure and make
it investable.

344
00:19:13,747 --> 00:19:16,897
Yeah, and I think there's definitely a
couple different parts of this.

345
00:19:16,897 --> 00:19:20,307
We're talking about the batteries in this
case, but also then there's the actual

346
00:19:20,307 --> 00:19:21,607
charging infrastructure.

347
00:19:21,607 --> 00:19:26,407
And I think there's some really cool
products that your team has been actually

348
00:19:26,407 --> 00:19:27,407
delivering.

349
00:19:27,407 --> 00:19:30,657
One of them is the North American charging
standard.

350
00:19:30,657 --> 00:19:37,987
I want to say it's a 200 kilowatt model
that Kyle Connor actually, who we've had

351
00:19:37,987 --> 00:19:42,547
on the show is technically like demoing at
his place in Boulder.

352
00:19:42,547 --> 00:19:47,787
Not in Boulder, but yeah, and I'm trying,
it's not, I always want to call it Fort

353
00:19:47,787 --> 00:19:48,087
Worth.

354
00:19:48,087 --> 00:19:52,167
It's Fort Collins, correct.

355
00:19:52,687 --> 00:19:55,957
And I think that's just awesome to see
that.

356
00:19:55,957 --> 00:19:59,807
And so I'm kind of curious, can you tell
us more about that product and kind of the

357
00:19:59,807 --> 00:20:00,217
interest in that?

358
00:20:00,217 --> 00:20:03,567
Cause obviously there's been a lot of
headlines about the North American

359
00:20:03,567 --> 00:20:03,847
Charging.

360
00:20:03,847 --> 00:20:04,767
And that's a whole different thing.

361
00:20:04,767 --> 00:20:08,507
We can talk about that too, but obviously
that's where a lot of automakers are going

362
00:20:08,507 --> 00:20:09,357
towards that standard.

363
00:20:09,357 --> 00:20:12,563
And they're kind of looking for options
out there in the space.

364
00:20:12,563 --> 00:20:14,103
for effective EV charging.

365
00:20:14,103 --> 00:20:18,303
So yeah, I'd just love to learn a little
bit more about how that's been going and

366
00:20:18,303 --> 00:20:22,620
some of the projects or kind of ideas that
have been unlocked with this new product.

367
00:20:22,620 --> 00:20:27,240
Yeah, you know, I think at X -Charge we
focus primarily on the driver, right?

368
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,380
We want to make sure that if you pull up
to an X -Charge station, no matter what

369
00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:34,100
vehicle you've got, you should be able to
take energy if you really need it, right?

370
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:37,500
And we started deploying the North
American charging standard before it was

371
00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:42,010
even certified by the SAE for J3400 back
in March of last year.

372
00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:45,180
And the reason we did that and went
through the UL certifications to get that

373
00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:47,488
done was to selfishly prove that we could
charge

374
00:20:47,488 --> 00:20:49,868
Teslas as well as CCS vehicles.

375
00:20:49,868 --> 00:20:54,168
And then about two months later, after we
had already secured our supply chain, the

376
00:20:54,168 --> 00:20:57,138
entire industry decided to adopt the
standard and within a week.

377
00:20:57,138 --> 00:20:58,428
I mean, I think you remember that time.

378
00:20:58,428 --> 00:21:00,728
It was a bit madness when it happened.

379
00:21:00,728 --> 00:21:05,028
And we just so happened to be sitting on
already fully integrated, you know,

380
00:21:05,028 --> 00:21:08,628
publicly deployed infrastructure with the
North American charging standard on it.

381
00:21:08,628 --> 00:21:15,232
The first one we deployed, the first two
we deployed were at a facility for MD7.

382
00:21:15,232 --> 00:21:20,802
in Dallas, Texas, and then another one for
a C store owner in, Harahan, Louisiana.

383
00:21:20,802 --> 00:21:25,252
Both of those had Tesla plugs on them
natively and we deployed those as the

384
00:21:25,252 --> 00:21:30,262
first in the country from an OEM that is
not named Tesla outside of ChargePoint,

385
00:21:30,262 --> 00:21:30,522
right?

386
00:21:30,522 --> 00:21:33,372
So ChargePoint was a couple of days behind
us and they did it at their testing

387
00:21:33,372 --> 00:21:33,792
facility.

388
00:21:33,792 --> 00:21:36,092
We deployed these to customers in March.

389
00:21:36,092 --> 00:21:39,652
So we were really proud of that and we got
a shout out on LinkedIn from PlugShare

390
00:21:39,652 --> 00:21:42,812
because we had the first check in on the
North American charging standard and we

391
00:21:42,812 --> 00:21:44,448
celebrated a little bit as a team.

392
00:21:44,448 --> 00:21:47,828
but it also reminded us that, okay, we
really do have to continue to look ahead

393
00:21:47,828 --> 00:21:51,728
of the curve and continue to innovate to
be more effective with the technologies

394
00:21:51,728 --> 00:21:53,148
that we bring to the market.

395
00:21:53,148 --> 00:21:56,248
And the unit we sent to Kyle Connor is
actually an example of that.

396
00:21:56,248 --> 00:22:00,988
That is our Net Zero series, our battery
integrated, you know, DC fast charger,

397
00:22:00,988 --> 00:22:04,808
where he's able to install that on level
two infrastructure and still provide, you

398
00:22:04,808 --> 00:22:09,888
know, up to 200 kilowatt output to
vehicles, two at a time, you know, on an

399
00:22:09,888 --> 00:22:13,056
ACS or CCS or some combination thereof.

400
00:22:13,056 --> 00:22:17,016
We provided that to them because we feel
that the space really needs to understand

401
00:22:17,016 --> 00:22:20,676
that this is possible and that there are
more options than paying a ton of money to

402
00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:23,316
the utility and waiting a ton of time to
get this done.

403
00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:27,196
And we're ready and rocking with deploying
that to customers today and have been

404
00:22:27,196 --> 00:22:29,482
doing it globally since 2020.

405
00:22:30,067 --> 00:22:36,987
So with that, I mean, have there been kind
of the change to the NACS or J34 and

406
00:22:36,987 --> 00:22:42,247
whatever we want to call it now from CCS,
have there been any kind of surprise

407
00:22:42,247 --> 00:22:47,687
learnings or I mean, is it other than just
switching over and getting a different

408
00:22:47,687 --> 00:22:48,657
supply chain for the plug?

409
00:22:48,657 --> 00:22:51,447
Has it really been pretty straightforward
or I feel like there's probably got to be

410
00:22:51,447 --> 00:22:57,047
more to the story as far as maybe new
discoveries or challenges by just going to

411
00:22:57,047 --> 00:22:58,115
a different plug.

412
00:22:58,256 --> 00:22:59,716
There certainly are, right?

413
00:22:59,716 --> 00:23:02,496
A supply chain was the first challenge we
had to overcome.

414
00:23:02,496 --> 00:23:04,536
And, you know, and full disclosure, I'm no
engineer.

415
00:23:04,536 --> 00:23:06,836
I simply play one on television.

416
00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:12,036
But in talking to my team, as we started
the implementation of that connector, we

417
00:23:12,036 --> 00:23:13,686
wanted to make sure that it did work.

418
00:23:13,686 --> 00:23:17,216
And the first thing that we found out is
when you plugged in back then, it doesn't

419
00:23:17,216 --> 00:23:22,296
happen now, but when you plugged in a
Tesla, you know, in 2022 into an NACS

420
00:23:22,296 --> 00:23:26,096
charger that was typically a CCS charger,
not made by Tesla.

421
00:23:26,464 --> 00:23:30,564
It only charged Teslas that had CCS
communication chips in them, right?

422
00:23:30,564 --> 00:23:32,054
Because we didn't have the language.

423
00:23:32,054 --> 00:23:35,844
Nobody in the space had the communication
language or the protocols to speak to

424
00:23:35,844 --> 00:23:39,384
these older Teslas that were designed
exclusively for the supercharger network.

425
00:23:39,384 --> 00:23:44,364
So when some of our customers in 2016, you
know, Model S's would come and plug in and

426
00:23:44,364 --> 00:23:47,684
their cars wouldn't recognize the charger,
for a little while we're scratching our

427
00:23:47,684 --> 00:23:47,874
heads.

428
00:23:47,874 --> 00:23:50,524
Couldn't quite figure out why, because
everything we rented from Hertz and some

429
00:23:50,524 --> 00:23:53,120
of our personal cars would plug in and
charge right away.

430
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,750
These were all 2023 vehicles, 2022
vehicles.

431
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:57,500
And then we started to piece it together.

432
00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:01,520
And that's why it's so important as an OEM
to go through these interoperability tests

433
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,200
with all manners of vehicles and all years
of vehicles and not just the ones that are

434
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,500
on the market today or the ones that will
be released tomorrow so that we catch

435
00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:11,372
those things and don't have frustrated
customers at the plug.

436
00:24:11,891 --> 00:24:13,171
sure.

437
00:24:13,611 --> 00:24:19,051
With kind of, I mean, are you seeing with
a lot of these chargers that have kind of

438
00:24:19,051 --> 00:24:24,551
the battery backup system allowing for
level two installation locations, is that

439
00:24:25,931 --> 00:24:30,131
becoming like a majority or is what
there's definitely a need for I'm just

440
00:24:30,131 --> 00:24:35,371
kind of curious if this is like really
opening up like 25 % greater or is it like

441
00:24:35,371 --> 00:24:38,651
all the sudden this is like a lot of
people like, this now makes way more sense

442
00:24:38,651 --> 00:24:39,563
for me.

443
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:42,987
Right.

444
00:24:42,987 --> 00:24:47,173
uptime and everything else really makes it
a much more straightforward answer.

445
00:24:47,384 --> 00:24:49,684
It definitely depends on the use case,
right?

446
00:24:49,684 --> 00:24:53,114
I think if you are a charge point
operator, a public charge point operator,

447
00:24:53,114 --> 00:24:56,204
trying to bring this infrastructure to
somewhere where you otherwise just can't

448
00:24:56,204 --> 00:24:59,244
do it, battery integrated solutions are
the right call.

449
00:24:59,244 --> 00:25:03,644
If you are someone who has an excellent
location that has tons of power available

450
00:25:03,644 --> 00:25:07,204
from the utility, we make other products
that I think would probably be a better

451
00:25:07,204 --> 00:25:11,328
fit if you plan to turn over 25 or 30 cars
a day through two units.

452
00:25:11,328 --> 00:25:15,328
It's tough for a battery to keep up unless
that battery is several megawatts large.

453
00:25:15,328 --> 00:25:19,728
So we do make products like our C7 that is
a direct 480 connection.

454
00:25:19,728 --> 00:25:23,588
It's a 400 kilowatt liquid cooled, you
know, simultaneous charging unit with

455
00:25:23,588 --> 00:25:27,607
dynamic load balancing, all the fun words
that you want to use in EV charging.

456
00:25:27,607 --> 00:25:29,238
That is your unit.

457
00:25:29,238 --> 00:25:33,068
If you really want to just sell as much
energy as quickly as possible and you have

458
00:25:33,068 --> 00:25:35,298
the power to do it, more power to you.

459
00:25:35,298 --> 00:25:36,348
We have products for that.

460
00:25:36,348 --> 00:25:38,904
Many great companies in this space have
products for that.

461
00:25:39,072 --> 00:25:42,672
What differentiates us is if you don't
have that amount of power and you still

462
00:25:42,672 --> 00:25:46,392
want to do DC fast charging, you're
basically required to use a Net Zero

463
00:25:46,392 --> 00:25:48,942
series product or some other battery
integrated solution.

464
00:25:48,942 --> 00:25:51,952
And we figured if you're going to go as
far as to include a battery with the

465
00:25:51,952 --> 00:25:56,552
charger to make it easier to install, you
might as well make that charger and that

466
00:25:56,552 --> 00:25:57,862
battery bi -directional.

467
00:25:57,862 --> 00:26:02,052
It should have a direct solar input DC to
DC like ours does so that you don't lose

468
00:26:02,052 --> 00:26:06,400
any energy converting it from DC to AC and
then back to DC to use it to charge cars.

469
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,760
This is the most efficient way for you to
not only offset your need from the grid,

470
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,740
but in theory, if you had enough solar and
enough time in between cars, you could be

471
00:26:14,740 --> 00:26:16,060
totally grid free, right?

472
00:26:16,060 --> 00:26:19,420
And provide energy that you didn't pay per
kilowatt hour for.

473
00:26:19,420 --> 00:26:23,310
And instead you were able to generate that
on site and distribute it to cars.

474
00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:26,265
That's the best case scenario from a micro
grid perspective.

475
00:26:26,265 --> 00:26:29,615
I mean, yeah, that's like about as ideal
of a situation as it gets for that use

476
00:26:29,615 --> 00:26:29,815
case.

477
00:26:29,815 --> 00:26:36,975
Yeah with like obviously the Inflation
reduction act always keep calling it the

478
00:26:36,975 --> 00:26:37,385
IRAs.

479
00:26:37,385 --> 00:26:44,595
I have to remember what sometimes what it
How have you seen that kind of impact

480
00:26:44,895 --> 00:26:49,635
Obviously before that there were subsidies
for charges there were subsidies for solar

481
00:26:49,635 --> 00:26:52,979
and stuff, but it seems like part of the
goal was

482
00:26:52,979 --> 00:26:56,519
Hopefully it also make it so these could
be packaged things together to kind of get

483
00:26:56,519 --> 00:26:59,019
a lot more of these products.

484
00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:04,259
Not only just implement, but implemented
as a package thing instead of maybe having

485
00:27:04,259 --> 00:27:07,529
to do multiple phases of the installation.

486
00:27:07,529 --> 00:27:11,379
Are you seeing that as kind of an outcome
of this?

487
00:27:11,379 --> 00:27:14,379
Or are you also maybe just, is it just
word of mouth?

488
00:27:14,379 --> 00:27:16,999
This is just something more people are
hearing about so they're kind of coming to

489
00:27:16,999 --> 00:27:18,279
you naturally.

490
00:27:18,536 --> 00:27:20,115
Sure.

491
00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:23,986
I believe the IRA has had a great impact
on battery integrated technologies.

492
00:27:23,986 --> 00:27:26,560
And the reason for that is typically
with...

493
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,550
Nevi funding or Baba compliance, you know,
you're looking at some portion of the,

494
00:27:30,550 --> 00:27:33,700
just the chargers that will be reimbursed
or in some cases, if you went in Nevi

495
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:37,020
project, it could be the whole project,
but you have some large number that you

496
00:27:37,020 --> 00:27:38,220
must contribute to that.

497
00:27:38,220 --> 00:27:42,720
When you add a battery, you know, the IRA
allows for you to take a tax credit of 30

498
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,160
% of the entire project.

499
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,980
And if you're using battery integrated
project or solutions, that number can be

500
00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:48,510
pretty large.

501
00:27:48,510 --> 00:27:50,560
It could be a million dollars in hardware.

502
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,980
that $300 ,000 kind of off the top, you
get to throw to the bottom line as a tax

503
00:27:54,980 --> 00:27:58,840
credit, which is tradable or a rebate of
some sort if you're a tax -free entity.

504
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,900
And that dramatically brings down the
capex of a project.

505
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:05,340
So you have the batteries, you brought
down the capex, and now you can use the

506
00:28:05,340 --> 00:28:09,160
batteries to peak shave, right, and pay
less for your energy, or you install solar

507
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,200
and can maybe even circumvent it entirely
in certain use cases.

508
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,160
Now you're going to be much more
profitable over time as you sell energy to

509
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,680
cars that you either don't have to pay for
or you can subsidize dramatically.

510
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,440
by taking during super off peak.

511
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,400
I think that's the most important impact
that we've seen is just CapEx to the

512
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,080
project itself because like I talked
about, most investors are pretty wary of

513
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,240
the EV charging space because of how
crowded it is at the moment and how long

514
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,520
it takes to ROI.

515
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,500
When you start to add batteries and then
you add a large tax credit to that, you

516
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,784
get way more competitive much more quickly
for the long term.

517
00:28:42,035 --> 00:28:46,375
Now do you know if it is just batteries or
is it if the project has batteries or

518
00:28:46,375 --> 00:28:50,411
solar, technically it can count for the
30%.

519
00:28:50,496 --> 00:28:53,316
So I think you just need batteries to get
to the 30%.

520
00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:53,656
Right.

521
00:28:53,656 --> 00:28:57,516
And, and, you know, again, I am no expert
in the tax code, but you just need

522
00:28:57,516 --> 00:28:58,756
batteries to get to the 30%.

523
00:28:58,756 --> 00:29:02,536
And if you do have solar, there are
additional drivers to help get you to like

524
00:29:02,536 --> 00:29:03,796
the 40 % range.

525
00:29:03,796 --> 00:29:08,416
If you have generation and storage on
site, you know, we've seen as much as 40 %

526
00:29:08,416 --> 00:29:09,896
of a project get funded.

527
00:29:09,896 --> 00:29:13,136
And that's not, you need to try and win,
right?

528
00:29:13,136 --> 00:29:13,760
You can just.

529
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,280
send in your details to the IRA and say
this qualifies and you earn that money.

530
00:29:28,499 --> 00:29:29,347
Sure.

531
00:29:29,347 --> 00:29:32,546
when it's, I get it, like if the parking
lot's already there, but like there's so

532
00:29:32,546 --> 00:29:35,507
many of these projects where they're
building a whole new facility and then

533
00:29:35,507 --> 00:29:36,267
parking.

534
00:29:36,267 --> 00:29:40,427
And if it's going to be all new anyway, it
adds a bit of cost, but the Delta is so

535
00:29:40,427 --> 00:29:40,867
much less.

536
00:29:40,867 --> 00:29:46,111
If you just plan it all at once and then
you can start unlocking so many cool,

537
00:29:52,620 --> 00:29:54,100
Right.

538
00:30:08,540 --> 00:30:10,650
I think.

539
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,500
It's mostly price has been the challenge,
right?

540
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:16,740
That's the toughest thing for people who
invest in EV charging to overcome because

541
00:30:16,740 --> 00:30:18,450
it requires a little bit of faith, right?

542
00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:21,720
This is an asset class that has yet to
kind of shake itself out as reliable.

543
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,570
And we're starting to see the reports from
EVgo, Electrify America, even Blink.

544
00:30:26,570 --> 00:30:30,380
You know, these companies are up nearly a
hundred percent year over year in revenues

545
00:30:30,380 --> 00:30:32,460
and that number doesn't go down next year,
right?

546
00:30:32,460 --> 00:30:35,860
So now that they've started to see the
adoption rate get where we need it to be

547
00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:37,760
to see that growth continue.

548
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,360
It's more about how do we optimize every
site that we've got and adding solar,

549
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,859
adding batteries, adding technologies that
work on 208.

550
00:30:45,859 --> 00:30:49,020
Like we make a charger that's a direct 208
connection so that you don't need to bring

551
00:30:49,020 --> 00:30:51,060
in 480 new power and some properties.

552
00:30:51,060 --> 00:30:54,620
These are things that help just
incrementally increase the profitability

553
00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:55,340
of a site.

554
00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:59,240
And I firmly believe that once EV charging
gets to the point where it is investable

555
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,944
by all the largest entities that do this
type of infrastructure investing.

556
00:31:02,944 --> 00:31:06,584
you will see so much of it that it will
provide that consumer confidence that we

557
00:31:06,584 --> 00:31:08,990
need to get to the next tier of EV
adoption.

558
00:31:10,291 --> 00:31:17,911
When you talk about someone who's kind of
on the edge or like looking to go and

559
00:31:17,911 --> 00:31:25,271
become one of these people that wants to
invest in it, how are they, what is, in

560
00:31:25,271 --> 00:31:27,621
your experience, like how do they come to
you?

561
00:31:27,621 --> 00:31:33,751
Is it like, I'm curious about this or I'm
looking to do X thing and since I'm

562
00:31:33,751 --> 00:31:36,852
building a building, I'm gonna throw in EV
charging.

563
00:31:36,852 --> 00:31:38,972
Or I heard about these tax credits in the
IRA.

564
00:31:38,972 --> 00:31:39,632
Can you help me there?

565
00:31:39,632 --> 00:31:43,512
I'm just kind of generally curious about,
in your experience, if there is kind of

566
00:31:43,512 --> 00:31:49,292
like a ideal customer that comes to you
fairly regularly with just like, yeah, I'm

567
00:31:49,292 --> 00:31:54,056
looking to do X and can you help me get to
this end product?

568
00:31:54,056 --> 00:31:58,056
Yeah, I think our most common customer
arch types, there's three of them, right?

569
00:31:58,056 --> 00:32:01,396
You've got the folks who have fleets that
have electrified and they're looking for a

570
00:32:01,396 --> 00:32:03,436
more effective way to charge their
vehicles.

571
00:32:03,436 --> 00:32:06,956
Sometimes that's level two, if their
fleets have significant periods of

572
00:32:06,956 --> 00:32:08,960
downtime or overnight, et cetera.

573
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Whereas if you do have like a black car
service that we service in Vegas, you

574
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,580
know, their vehicles are in service 24
seven and they're all electric.

575
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:20,580
So we had to provide a solution for them
that kept them going, you know, with DC

576
00:32:20,580 --> 00:32:23,920
fast charging in their garage where they
could not get more power from Nevada

577
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:24,420
energy.

578
00:32:24,420 --> 00:32:28,020
So we had to make do with what we had and
that dynamic load balancing is a good

579
00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:28,940
solution for them.

580
00:32:28,940 --> 00:32:33,020
The reason they found us is they went to
Nevada energy to request more power for a

581
00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:35,488
typical DCFC install and they couldn't get
it.

582
00:32:35,488 --> 00:32:37,138
So then they started looking at
alternatives.

583
00:32:37,138 --> 00:32:38,948
Well, what can I do with the power that
I've got?

584
00:32:38,948 --> 00:32:41,168
You know, and X -Charge provides solutions
to do that.

585
00:32:41,168 --> 00:32:44,488
And then the third type is, you know, the
property owners or the charge point

586
00:32:44,488 --> 00:32:48,068
operator who wants to take advantage of
the EV revolution and start to provide

587
00:32:48,068 --> 00:32:52,268
this infrastructure sort of as a service,
you know, and be the broker in the middle.

588
00:32:52,268 --> 00:32:56,308
Those folks usually find their way to us
through trade shows or through word of

589
00:32:56,308 --> 00:32:57,408
mouth or...

590
00:32:57,408 --> 00:33:01,427
or they went to go and install a charger
and realized how long the lead time for a

591
00:33:01,427 --> 00:33:02,068
transformer was.

592
00:33:02,068 --> 00:33:04,928
So now they're backpedaling trying to
figure out what the solution is that

593
00:33:04,928 --> 00:33:06,908
doesn't require 2000 kVA.

594
00:33:06,908 --> 00:33:10,086
And you know, that's where X -Charge comes
in to fill that gap.

595
00:33:10,547 --> 00:33:12,047
Interesting.

596
00:33:12,427 --> 00:33:16,447
Yeah, one of the things you meant, and I'm
kind of surprised we haven't heard more

597
00:33:16,447 --> 00:33:18,707
interest in kind of that.

598
00:33:18,727 --> 00:33:23,087
I haven't been really able to come up with
the right name to describe it, but

599
00:33:23,087 --> 00:33:25,007
essentially commercial EV usage.

600
00:33:25,007 --> 00:33:29,567
Like, I mean, all the headlines we saw
coming in the news in the winter, like in

601
00:33:29,567 --> 00:33:33,867
Chicago with all these EV charges are
overwhelmed and said, well, majority of it

602
00:33:33,867 --> 00:33:39,447
was just understandably like usually Uber
drivers or others that needed kind of that

603
00:33:39,447 --> 00:33:40,819
commercial use.

604
00:33:40,819 --> 00:33:48,539
and you look at the traditional combustion
engine gas industry and You go up and down

605
00:33:48,539 --> 00:33:49,299
anywhere on the west coast.

606
00:33:49,299 --> 00:33:55,879
You'll see the pacific commercial fueling
Gas stations are specifically for either a

607
00:33:55,879 --> 00:34:01,959
town car service or large trucks and so it
kind of inherently keeps The different

608
00:34:01,959 --> 00:34:05,839
traffic flows when someone goes to refuel
and there just hasn't been quite that yet.

609
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:08,499
It seems like for EVs

610
00:34:08,499 --> 00:34:12,679
It just seems like everyone has to go to
the local supercharger whichever charger

611
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:17,859
is closest to them instead of like having
that distinction of This is a private one

612
00:34:17,859 --> 00:34:25,639
that X company has just for theirs or it
is Whether it's X charger some business

613
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:32,819
that just sells only or charges only for
commercial use Evies and I'm curious

614
00:34:32,819 --> 00:34:36,399
that's great to hear that someone has done
that but it is that becoming more of a

615
00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:38,259
thing or have you seen anything?

616
00:34:38,259 --> 00:34:41,359
kind of larger scale than that, instead of
it being like a one -off business, there's

617
00:34:41,359 --> 00:34:45,219
someone, there being the business case
where someone's gonna say, I'm gonna be

618
00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:50,199
the Pacific commercial EV charger along
the West Coast for Uber drivers or

619
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:50,880
whoever.

620
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:51,440
Sure.

621
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,640
There are a couple of companies that do it
now and, you know, using an example

622
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,600
without naming any companies specifically
in the San Diego area, the airport has

623
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,300
electrified its people movers and those
are in operation, you know, 20 hours a day

624
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:04,880
until the quiet hours in San Diego.

625
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,456
And they, they,

626
00:35:07,456 --> 00:35:10,996
you know, either leased or bought up a
large portion of land adjacent to the

627
00:35:10,996 --> 00:35:11,326
airport.

628
00:35:11,326 --> 00:35:15,116
And then they put in a ton of DC fast
chargers with a new power request from SDG

629
00:35:15,116 --> 00:35:15,665
&E.

630
00:35:15,665 --> 00:35:18,276
And those chargers are specifically for
these people movers.

631
00:35:18,276 --> 00:35:22,256
They're for the electrified taxi fleets to
try and keep them off of the very

632
00:35:22,256 --> 00:35:26,176
constrained local infrastructure from the
EV goes the electrify Americas, the Tesla

633
00:35:26,176 --> 00:35:27,256
superchargers.

634
00:35:27,256 --> 00:35:30,276
And they're not designed to handle these
large buses.

635
00:35:30,276 --> 00:35:31,856
They don't have pull through stalls.

636
00:35:31,856 --> 00:35:35,096
It's very inconvenient when someone's
going to block three stalls of charging so

637
00:35:35,096 --> 00:35:36,736
that they can get their truck recharged.

638
00:35:36,736 --> 00:35:38,656
Now, you can't really blame the truck
driver.

639
00:35:38,656 --> 00:35:40,396
He's working with what he's got, right?

640
00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:45,496
So in my opinion, that just needs to be a
space that's more mindfully attacked by

641
00:35:45,496 --> 00:35:48,696
the folks that provide this level of
infrastructure as a service or as a

642
00:35:48,696 --> 00:35:49,396
business.

643
00:35:49,396 --> 00:35:54,276
Those who provide ChargePoint operation as
a professional business, they know that

644
00:35:54,276 --> 00:35:56,556
there is a specific customer type that
they're after.

645
00:35:56,556 --> 00:35:58,944
And if you're after just public charging,

646
00:35:58,944 --> 00:36:00,664
you pick the right parking lots for that.

647
00:36:00,664 --> 00:36:04,684
You pick the commercial lots that have the
VOMs, the Starbucks, those sorts of

648
00:36:04,684 --> 00:36:07,204
convenience features and amenities in
them.

649
00:36:07,204 --> 00:36:11,064
And if you're charging fleet vehicles,
you're talking to your in -customer first

650
00:36:11,064 --> 00:36:14,144
and saying, where would we solve a need
for you?

651
00:36:14,144 --> 00:36:17,764
And in this case of the San Diego airport,
it has to be within a half mile of where

652
00:36:17,764 --> 00:36:19,444
these things are typically on route.

653
00:36:19,444 --> 00:36:23,784
And they did find that piece of property
and then they fenced it off and added RFID

654
00:36:23,784 --> 00:36:26,272
cards for gates so that only they could
access it.

655
00:36:26,272 --> 00:36:27,552
And that solves both problems.

656
00:36:27,552 --> 00:36:30,532
You're not congesting the public
infrastructure and the people who need it

657
00:36:30,532 --> 00:36:34,412
on a commercial side are able to get to
that quickly without running into

658
00:36:34,412 --> 00:36:38,412
challenges in stall design and how to turn
their vehicles around.

659
00:36:38,452 --> 00:36:42,812
I've seen lots of medium class vehicles
charging at Electrify Americas because

660
00:36:42,812 --> 00:36:46,992
it's all they had and they take up half of
all the stalls and it's really

661
00:36:46,992 --> 00:36:50,312
inconvenient and they have 200 kilowatt
hour batteries that take forever to

662
00:36:50,312 --> 00:36:51,452
recharge to begin with.

663
00:36:51,452 --> 00:36:51,776
So.

664
00:36:51,776 --> 00:36:55,636
It's good to see that the industry start
to differentiate itself in those various

665
00:36:55,636 --> 00:36:59,262
use cases and not just say all chargers
are good chargers in the right place.

666
00:37:00,115 --> 00:37:00,495
For sure.

667
00:37:00,495 --> 00:37:02,255
And I figure that is happening.

668
00:37:02,255 --> 00:37:04,175
I just hadn't heard too much.

669
00:37:04,175 --> 00:37:09,915
And like, there are obviously, usually
it's kind of like city or a county level

670
00:37:09,915 --> 00:37:11,605
that might have like a bunch of electric
buses.

671
00:37:11,605 --> 00:37:14,855
They'll have their own Depot or something,
but then you kind of start getting into

672
00:37:14,855 --> 00:37:19,655
that medium use case where, you're getting
the negative headlines that we saw with

673
00:37:19,655 --> 00:37:23,175
like a lot of Uber drivers and just trying
to find out that what that right balance

674
00:37:23,175 --> 00:37:24,235
is.

675
00:37:24,595 --> 00:37:27,635
so that that's great to hear that it's
probably not going to happen overnight,

676
00:37:27,635 --> 00:37:29,171
but it is.

677
00:37:29,171 --> 00:37:31,828
being solved, which I figured it was,
yeah.

678
00:37:31,828 --> 00:37:34,998
it's important because there are certain
types of public services.

679
00:37:34,998 --> 00:37:36,888
Let's take police departments, for
example.

680
00:37:36,888 --> 00:37:40,608
You typically don't pull up to a gas pump
and see several cop cars refueling there,

681
00:37:40,608 --> 00:37:40,788
right?

682
00:37:40,788 --> 00:37:43,688
It's very rare when they do that and it's
on a need -by -need basis.

683
00:37:43,688 --> 00:37:45,868
They have gas pumps at their depots.

684
00:37:45,868 --> 00:37:49,388
You know, as these vehicles electrify,
because they're going to the vehicles or

685
00:37:49,388 --> 00:37:51,568
the shops, as they call them, go from
shift to shift, right?

686
00:37:51,568 --> 00:37:54,388
They don't really get a whole lot of
downtime and, you know, the police

687
00:37:54,388 --> 00:37:56,064
department is open 24 -7.

688
00:37:56,064 --> 00:37:59,584
So they're starting to look at DC fast
charging infrastructure as well, because

689
00:37:59,584 --> 00:38:02,684
level two doesn't quite do it for them
when those vehicles need to be back out on

690
00:38:02,684 --> 00:38:03,864
the road in half an hour.

691
00:38:03,864 --> 00:38:08,484
So giving them their own DC fast chargers
behind the fence at these police

692
00:38:08,484 --> 00:38:12,443
departments is something that we're
contacted about quite a bit actually to

693
00:38:12,443 --> 00:38:13,684
help make that happen.

694
00:38:13,684 --> 00:38:18,084
And that's going to provide the confidence
not only to the department, but to the

695
00:38:18,084 --> 00:38:22,624
officers themselves and having the ability
to use these vehicles for all the various

696
00:38:22,624 --> 00:38:25,640
use cases that they need every day to keep
our communities safe.

697
00:38:26,227 --> 00:38:32,347
Yeah, I'm kind of curious with that kind
of use case where it's a pretty frequent

698
00:38:32,347 --> 00:38:37,547
DC fast charge, is there, and this is
obviously probably kind of model specific,

699
00:38:37,547 --> 00:38:42,547
but I'm just kind of curious, is there
like a speed you've been, or like a

700
00:38:42,547 --> 00:38:45,847
charger you recommend, maybe not all the
way at the 200 kilowatts, or maybe just

701
00:38:45,847 --> 00:38:50,251
site specific, like maybe 50 or 100 is
good enough for these, or?

702
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,920
I think it depends on, I mean, most
departments have very good data about how

703
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,611
long their vehicles will sit in soak time,
we call it.

704
00:38:58,611 --> 00:38:59,264
Gotcha.

705
00:38:59,264 --> 00:39:02,784
it typically requires almost a
consultation from a charging company to

706
00:39:02,784 --> 00:39:03,424
look at your fleet.

707
00:39:03,424 --> 00:39:05,364
How many are you electrifying right now?

708
00:39:05,364 --> 00:39:06,584
Okay, well, here's the plan.

709
00:39:06,584 --> 00:39:10,104
Because if you want to go with 16 stalls
of DC fast charging at a police department

710
00:39:10,104 --> 00:39:12,304
now, no way you've got the infrastructure
for that.

711
00:39:12,304 --> 00:39:15,384
So you would start with two to four
stalls, and then you would say, as you

712
00:39:15,384 --> 00:39:20,064
start to get to 20%, 40%, 70 % of their
fleet is electric, this is how we would

713
00:39:20,064 --> 00:39:23,084
expand upon that, you know, and use some
dynamic load balancing.

714
00:39:23,084 --> 00:39:26,080
Maybe all the chargers are capable of 200,
300 kilowatt.

715
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,760
But when they're all plugged in, you can
ramp that down substantially to 50 to 100

716
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,000
kW each.

717
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,580
And that way you're not putting such a
strain on the resources that you've got in

718
00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:36,606
order to make this happen in the first
place.

719
00:39:37,139 --> 00:39:40,639
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely been an
interesting topic is for so long, people

720
00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:43,699
said, DC fast charging ruins the battery
over the lifestyle.

721
00:39:43,699 --> 00:39:45,629
I like life of the battery.

722
00:39:45,629 --> 00:39:47,379
And it's like.

723
00:39:47,379 --> 00:39:52,439
The more data we've seen of it, it
surprisingly is pretty minimal.

724
00:39:52,439 --> 00:39:56,899
If any, depending on the, it's like, since
most are now thermally managed systems,

725
00:39:56,899 --> 00:40:00,883
any V's that's really gotten rid of it.

726
00:40:00,883 --> 00:40:04,603
So you can see these super, I think
probably the most common is just because

727
00:40:04,603 --> 00:40:08,443
of the volume of this Tesla is that were
used as like Ubers and stuff that were

728
00:40:08,443 --> 00:40:11,243
pretty much exclusively DC fast charge.

729
00:40:11,243 --> 00:40:16,283
And it, it's like, maybe it's a couple of
percent extra degradation of that, but if

730
00:40:16,283 --> 00:40:21,243
the number is so small, it's so, you
can't, you almost can't even tie it to DC.

731
00:40:21,243 --> 00:40:22,383
It could just be that battery.

732
00:40:22,383 --> 00:40:26,283
It could have been some other use case or
like it was in the cold a lot more or

733
00:40:26,283 --> 00:40:30,507
something, which is really cool to see
that that's kind of.

734
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:37,696
Sure.

735
00:40:37,787 --> 00:40:39,657
might not be practical for some use cases.

736
00:40:39,657 --> 00:40:45,507
So it's turned out that if you need an EV,
more likely than not, there's a way to

737
00:40:45,507 --> 00:40:47,659
make it realistic for your business.

738
00:40:47,804 --> 00:40:51,644
I think in the industry, you know, those
of us have been in a while and know quite

739
00:40:51,644 --> 00:40:54,064
a bit about the battery technology in the
vehicles.

740
00:40:54,064 --> 00:40:57,704
We are willing to say, you know, I'll go
out on a limb here to say that DC fast

741
00:40:57,704 --> 00:41:01,184
charging is not inherently harmful to your
battery, at least not to a measurable

742
00:41:01,184 --> 00:41:01,792
degree.

743
00:41:01,792 --> 00:41:05,112
that over the life of ownership of that
vehicle, you will notice in your day to

744
00:41:05,112 --> 00:41:05,242
day.

745
00:41:05,242 --> 00:41:09,532
I think there's several studies on some of
these 2014 through 2016 Tesla Model S's

746
00:41:09,532 --> 00:41:11,512
that were primarily DC fast charged.

747
00:41:11,512 --> 00:41:15,712
And you're seeing degradation of sub 10 %
over the course of a decade.

748
00:41:15,712 --> 00:41:20,372
That, you know, I think that would be what
we consider an acceptable loss, you know,

749
00:41:20,372 --> 00:41:24,112
whereas with an internal combustion engine
over the course of a decade, the wear and

750
00:41:24,112 --> 00:41:29,152
tear on the motor itself usually will be
more significant than that of, you know,

751
00:41:29,312 --> 00:41:30,976
the electric vehicle equivalent.

752
00:41:30,976 --> 00:41:35,116
And the cost to replace a motor is
probably about the equivalent of the cost

753
00:41:35,116 --> 00:41:36,486
to replace a battery these days.

754
00:41:36,486 --> 00:41:41,296
I've had several less than ideal ICE
vehicles over the years that I've liked to

755
00:41:41,296 --> 00:41:42,586
own and drive it until it explodes.

756
00:41:42,586 --> 00:41:45,836
And when they do explode, I have never
gone through the effort of replacing the

757
00:41:45,836 --> 00:41:46,316
engine.

758
00:41:46,316 --> 00:41:48,467
Turns out I've always just replaced the
car.

759
00:41:48,467 --> 00:41:49,667
Right, right.

760
00:41:49,667 --> 00:41:53,147
Well, it's you bring up a really great
point that I don't think a lot of people

761
00:41:53,147 --> 00:41:58,867
realize is yes, evs are warranted to like
have a degradation level and stuff like

762
00:41:58,867 --> 00:42:03,467
that and and then within that degradation
level like we're telling the impact of dc

763
00:42:03,467 --> 00:42:06,297
fast charging is like Potentially a small
percent of that.

764
00:42:06,297 --> 00:42:08,647
It's even hard to tell to what extent?

765
00:42:10,227 --> 00:42:14,507
but combustion engine vehicles lose power
over time as well that I and I don't think

766
00:42:14,507 --> 00:42:16,715
enough people fully appreciate that one of
my

767
00:42:17,235 --> 00:42:21,535
favorite like top gear things they did was
they all went out and got like the goal

768
00:42:21,535 --> 00:42:25,715
was to get like a I think it had to be at
least 20 years old or something some sort

769
00:42:25,715 --> 00:42:30,355
of random european car and they had to
find out who still had the most power of

770
00:42:30,355 --> 00:42:35,395
the what the car came with and I don't
think any of them crossed even the 50 mark

771
00:42:36,035 --> 00:42:40,994
right which is such a wild thing that I
just don't think most people fully

772
00:42:40,994 --> 00:42:45,419
appreciate even if you are a mechanic I
think I

773
00:42:51,367 --> 00:42:52,148
Sure.

774
00:42:55,648 --> 00:42:56,563
Right.

775
00:42:56,563 --> 00:42:59,403
There's a reason you have a break -in
period and there's also a reason you have

776
00:42:59,403 --> 00:43:02,728
to rebuild the engine and replace them
eventually too, so.

777
00:43:02,728 --> 00:43:07,088
there's a reason they make high mileage
motor oil, you know, and when these

778
00:43:07,088 --> 00:43:09,648
vehicles get older like that.

779
00:43:10,208 --> 00:43:13,528
Yeah, they get substantially less fuel
efficient in the process too.

780
00:43:13,528 --> 00:43:17,108
So it's not even just less reliable or
less power, but you're literally less fuel

781
00:43:17,108 --> 00:43:17,458
efficient.

782
00:43:17,458 --> 00:43:20,328
So I don't see how that's any different
than less efficient from a battery

783
00:43:20,328 --> 00:43:20,968
perspective.

784
00:43:20,979 --> 00:43:22,859
For sure, for sure.

785
00:43:23,359 --> 00:43:26,879
Well, I think we've talked a lot on that,
the commercial.

786
00:43:26,879 --> 00:43:30,279
But no, this is super fascinating because
it's been one I've been wondering quite a

787
00:43:30,279 --> 00:43:30,559
bit about.

788
00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:38,439
And so I think you are in probably as deep
in the EV charging realm as it can be.

789
00:43:38,439 --> 00:43:42,379
And there has been a lot of kind of
shakeout in this past year, it seems like.

790
00:43:42,379 --> 00:43:47,299
And I think personally, it's unfortunate,
but not kind of surprising.

791
00:43:47,299 --> 00:43:50,565
I feel like there's just been a lot in the
space that had kind of been

792
00:43:50,675 --> 00:43:54,255
built up and maybe good or bad, there've
been a lot of people kind of rushing into

793
00:43:54,255 --> 00:43:57,455
and like we had been talking about, just
with any technology, there kind of is that

794
00:43:57,455 --> 00:44:03,215
rush kind of fall out and then what is
left is what kind of grows to become a

795
00:44:03,215 --> 00:44:07,055
long -term and sustainable industry.

796
00:44:07,455 --> 00:44:12,095
And so I'm kind of curious with what
you've seen because there's so many

797
00:44:12,095 --> 00:44:16,155
negative headlines, has there been kind of
people are now kind of taking a step back

798
00:44:16,155 --> 00:44:19,155
because they're, I don't know if these EVs
things are going to be.

799
00:44:19,155 --> 00:44:24,255
forever or is that more instead of like a
commercial mindset that's more like maybe

800
00:44:24,255 --> 00:44:28,960
a biased personal one -off mindset sort of
experience if that makes sense.

801
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,640
Yeah, I think I know exactly what you're
saying and I think most people I'd be

802
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,860
willing to say that the overwhelming
majority of people who are even remotely

803
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:41,900
familiar with the space does not believe
that EVs are a fad I don't think that this

804
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:45,620
is something that's kind of passing in the
wind I think that these vehicles are

805
00:44:45,620 --> 00:44:48,840
coming I think people will adopt them when
they get to the price point that makes it

806
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,752
financially reasonable for their household

807
00:44:50,752 --> 00:44:54,811
and they already provide numerous benefits
from a maintenance perspective, from a

808
00:44:54,811 --> 00:44:58,432
safety and reliability perspective, and a
technology perspective, the cars are here

809
00:44:58,432 --> 00:45:00,952
to stay, which means the infrastructure
has got to get built.

810
00:45:00,952 --> 00:45:04,292
So when you see some of these headlines
and the things that Tesla does and some of

811
00:45:04,292 --> 00:45:08,472
these other companies where they start to
fold due to insolvency, consolidation in

812
00:45:08,472 --> 00:45:09,512
this space was necessary.

813
00:45:09,512 --> 00:45:12,402
There are some very sharp people in this
space, Lauren MacDonald being one of them,

814
00:45:12,402 --> 00:45:14,252
that talk about this ad nauseum.

815
00:45:14,252 --> 00:45:18,496
So I'm not going to rehash their points,
but I think consolidation was necessary.

816
00:45:18,496 --> 00:45:22,396
And I think that those of us, and I know
many obviously in the space who are

817
00:45:22,396 --> 00:45:26,956
already after the deployment of this
hardware at mass, some of these news

818
00:45:26,956 --> 00:45:29,996
headlines and some of these players kind
of pulling out of the space full speed

819
00:45:29,996 --> 00:45:32,936
have only incented us to go faster, to do
more.

820
00:45:32,936 --> 00:45:36,836
I've seen more investors come into the
space over the last two weeks than I had

821
00:45:36,836 --> 00:45:40,936
seen in the last two years because they
believe that a large gap is being left by

822
00:45:40,936 --> 00:45:43,996
people like Tesla slowing down their
deployment plans from a rollout

823
00:45:43,996 --> 00:45:44,416
perspective.

824
00:45:44,416 --> 00:45:46,912
And I believe that Tesla will support
their network very well.

825
00:45:46,912 --> 00:45:49,632
They're in first for a reason and it's not
close.

826
00:45:49,632 --> 00:45:53,092
But them doing anything other than
stepping on the rest of our necks gives

827
00:45:53,092 --> 00:45:54,782
everybody else an opportunity to grow.

828
00:45:54,782 --> 00:45:57,512
And you're going to start to see this
democratize a little bit through other

829
00:45:57,512 --> 00:46:01,382
companies who are coming into the space
with fresh capital and new perspectives.

830
00:46:01,555 --> 00:46:02,715
No, that's great to hear.

831
00:46:02,715 --> 00:46:03,735
And I kind of agree with you.

832
00:46:03,735 --> 00:46:07,995
I think in a lot of ways people were kind
of freaking out because of the Tesla news.

833
00:46:07,995 --> 00:46:11,635
And I think, I don't know, I remember
there's always something people are

834
00:46:11,635 --> 00:46:12,925
freaking about when it comes to Tesla.

835
00:46:12,925 --> 00:46:17,335
And I think they'll only ever be in
trouble if there isn't something good or

836
00:46:17,335 --> 00:46:20,075
bad done by themselves or not that people
are freaking out about.

837
00:46:20,075 --> 00:46:23,315
If it just becomes, it's Tesla doing
another thing and they're not a news

838
00:46:23,315 --> 00:46:25,855
cycle, then that's probably when Tesla's
company needs to be worried because

839
00:46:25,855 --> 00:46:29,715
they're no longer the Apple or the special
kind of shiny thing that they have going

840
00:46:29,715 --> 00:46:31,168
for their space.

841
00:46:31,168 --> 00:46:31,883
Right.

842
00:46:31,883 --> 00:46:35,123
they're saying they're hiring some of
these people back and they had had the

843
00:46:35,123 --> 00:46:38,223
massive layoffs like a year or two ago and
the sales department, no one was like, how

844
00:46:38,223 --> 00:46:39,473
are they ever going to sell cars?

845
00:46:39,473 --> 00:46:40,943
And obviously they survived.

846
00:46:40,943 --> 00:46:46,263
And I kind of think there's, an element
where you can have to separate tests and

847
00:46:46,263 --> 00:46:47,213
leave them out from it.

848
00:46:47,213 --> 00:46:53,223
But at the same time, it is just the also
element of like, that's kind of the short

849
00:46:53,223 --> 00:46:55,463
-term mindset versus.

850
00:46:55,463 --> 00:46:59,243
I kind of taking the temperature of like
one random day and you can do that for

851
00:46:59,243 --> 00:47:00,788
pretty much any industry.

852
00:47:00,788 --> 00:47:01,399
Absolutely.

853
00:47:01,399 --> 00:47:06,319
a really bad temperature or something you
take for that day because that was the big

854
00:47:06,319 --> 00:47:07,299
thing that happened that week.

855
00:47:07,299 --> 00:47:10,359
But looking at it long -term, it just
seems like there's still so much

856
00:47:10,359 --> 00:47:11,259
potential.

857
00:47:11,259 --> 00:47:12,599
And I do agree with that.

858
00:47:12,599 --> 00:47:19,059
I think maybe it's slowed down some of the
EV adoption by car buyers.

859
00:47:19,059 --> 00:47:23,879
But it's so fascinating to me at the same
time because so many of the people who are

860
00:47:23,879 --> 00:47:29,587
saying it slowed down 36 months ago would
have said, EVs are never going to

861
00:47:29,587 --> 00:47:35,087
get to 10 % and then like 12 to 18 months
ago, they're like, I think it's going to

862
00:47:35,087 --> 00:47:38,787
get to like almost 50 % within like a
year.

863
00:47:38,787 --> 00:47:40,447
And now they're like, well, it's slowing
down.

864
00:47:40,447 --> 00:47:42,107
It's maybe it'll be 30%.

865
00:47:42,107 --> 00:47:46,607
And so it's like, it's still like taking a
step back and sure it's slowing down, but

866
00:47:46,607 --> 00:47:51,187
I really do think it's a short -term thing
and it still is really interesting and

867
00:47:51,187 --> 00:47:55,467
surprising me just even though people are
like kind of taking a step back.

868
00:47:55,467 --> 00:47:57,767
Some of these people have been very
conservative and have a lot of industry

869
00:47:57,767 --> 00:47:59,795
experience in the automotive space.

870
00:47:59,795 --> 00:48:05,435
their projections still aren't even I
would say more of the doomsday numbers

871
00:48:05,435 --> 00:48:10,435
aren't even as bad as those numbers they
used to say or others of a similar mindset

872
00:48:10,435 --> 00:48:12,855
only said a couple of years ago.

873
00:48:13,115 --> 00:48:18,365
And you still look at while there's been
some slowing down the Chinese EV market.

874
00:48:18,365 --> 00:48:22,635
I don't think it's like slowing down so
much as it's almost what we've seen in the

875
00:48:22,635 --> 00:48:26,875
North American headlines about the EV
charging space where it's they're slowing

876
00:48:26,875 --> 00:48:28,714
down almost for consolidation.

877
00:48:29,075 --> 00:48:35,495
Not and some market stuff, but It seems
like majority is that is where they are

878
00:48:35,495 --> 00:48:40,955
going and then some and the evs they have
for sale in that space are In a lot of

879
00:48:40,955 --> 00:48:43,855
ways light years ahead of what's
especially when it comes like you look at

880
00:48:43,855 --> 00:48:50,615
the charging capabilities of some of these
and what is even on the market in here or

881
00:48:50,615 --> 00:48:57,155
europe I i'm curious if with like some of
the numbers that had been mentioned

882
00:48:57,155 --> 00:48:58,291
because I mean

883
00:48:58,291 --> 00:49:01,691
Some of these Chinese companies are
claiming that they have cars now that are

884
00:49:01,691 --> 00:49:06,651
much bigger battery pack wise than like,
let's say 100 to 120 kilowatts that can do

885
00:49:06,651 --> 00:49:11,551
anywhere from 300 to, which isn't crazy,
but like almost 500 kilowatts charging.

886
00:49:12,351 --> 00:49:16,621
Just sometimes some of these cars are
closer to like 75 kilowatt hours.

887
00:49:16,621 --> 00:49:18,091
So it's like crazy.

888
00:49:18,091 --> 00:49:22,451
C numbers that we haven't really ever seen
before as far as charge rates.

889
00:49:22,451 --> 00:49:27,923
I'm curious if there's been any, has it,
does that.

890
00:49:27,923 --> 00:49:31,523
ever come up in conversations when
building a site for like future proofing

891
00:49:31,523 --> 00:49:37,503
or how to look at maybe 200 kilowatts as
fast now, but a couple of years ago, 150

892
00:49:37,503 --> 00:49:41,717
kilowatts have been mind blowing and now
it's kind of like at best table stakes.

893
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,640
You know, I think you're absolutely right.

894
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,220
A lot of the discussion that we have now
with customers is how do I get

895
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:50,940
infrastructure in now that can be upgraded
later?

896
00:49:50,940 --> 00:49:51,210
Right.

897
00:49:51,210 --> 00:49:55,260
And when you talk about the difference in
infrastructure, just for context, right,

898
00:49:55,260 --> 00:49:58,080
for a lot of the listeners that may not be
in the space every single day.

899
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:02,320
The difference between what's required for
150 kilowatt charger, which is considered

900
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:08,080
average these days, and a 400 kilowatt
charger is more than double, right, of the

901
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,020
amount of grid connection.

902
00:50:09,020 --> 00:50:14,000
You know, a 400 kilowatt charger is, you
know, with the headroom for NEC, you're

903
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,740
looking at 600 amps of power for a single
unit.

904
00:50:17,740 --> 00:50:22,040
So if you want 10 of those units on site
for any reason, that's six megawatts worth

905
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,640
of power and then some.

906
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,688
The infrastructure to do that is
unbelievably cost prohibitive.

907
00:50:26,688 --> 00:50:30,828
So while you do want a future proof where
possible, the way you do that is by larger

908
00:50:30,828 --> 00:50:34,648
conduit in the ground so that you can pull
more wire when you do get to that stage of

909
00:50:34,648 --> 00:50:37,008
upgrade two, three, four, five years from
now.

910
00:50:37,008 --> 00:50:42,028
But I think the vehicle market is a good
way to kind of use that as a predictor for

911
00:50:42,028 --> 00:50:44,388
where you need to be in the nearby future.

912
00:50:44,388 --> 00:50:48,388
Most EV charging infrastructure is good
for about 10 years of service life before

913
00:50:48,388 --> 00:50:50,488
it needs a refresh or replacement.

914
00:50:50,488 --> 00:50:54,448
And when you look at a vehicle using the
Porsche Taycan as an example,

915
00:50:54,688 --> 00:50:58,598
These vehicles aren't charging at 500
kilowatts, 600 kilowatts right now, right?

916
00:50:58,598 --> 00:51:01,748
And when you buy one, I bet you want to
keep it for six years.

917
00:51:07,668 --> 00:51:09,348
Of course.

918
00:51:15,988 --> 00:51:17,228
Yes.

919
00:51:19,668 --> 00:51:20,268
Absolutely.

920
00:51:20,268 --> 00:51:23,178
And I don't see that one becoming not
relevant from a charge speed, you know,

921
00:51:23,178 --> 00:51:23,936
over the next.

922
00:51:23,936 --> 00:51:27,995
decade, I would be plenty happy to own one
now, you know, and I think I've never met

923
00:51:27,995 --> 00:51:30,776
anyone who looked at a Porsche and said, I
really don't like the look of that

924
00:51:30,776 --> 00:51:31,356
vehicle.

925
00:51:31,356 --> 00:51:33,536
Never heard it in my entire life.

926
00:51:35,096 --> 00:51:41,236
You know, the pan...

927
00:51:41,236 --> 00:51:43,456
what's funny, I liked it.

928
00:51:43,456 --> 00:51:44,276
Yeah.

929
00:51:44,556 --> 00:51:45,516
Yup.

930
00:51:48,136 --> 00:51:50,291
It was polarized.

931
00:51:50,291 --> 00:51:50,471
biased.

932
00:51:50,471 --> 00:51:51,821
That was the only thing that they ever
made.

933
00:51:51,821 --> 00:51:53,551
I was never a big fan of.

934
00:51:53,551 --> 00:51:57,431
But everyone I've talked to has had the
chance to really drive one, enjoy one, and

935
00:51:57,431 --> 00:51:59,179
the interior just swears by them.

936
00:51:59,488 --> 00:52:02,988
Tell you what though, you pull up in a
Panamera to a restaurant and somehow the

937
00:52:02,988 --> 00:52:04,508
Valley always leaves you out front.

938
00:52:04,508 --> 00:52:05,303
It does.

939
00:52:05,303 --> 00:52:07,003
I'm, and I, I don't mean wrong.

940
00:52:07,003 --> 00:52:08,443
It's still, it's still a nice car.

941
00:52:08,443 --> 00:52:10,823
It's just personal, personal taste.

942
00:52:10,823 --> 00:52:13,963
That was just one I aesthetically, I
thought was a bit of a mess.

943
00:52:15,202 --> 00:52:19,222
but I think the Tycon, which was almost
like the second take of that style of car,

944
00:52:19,222 --> 00:52:21,323
11 out of 10.

945
00:52:22,783 --> 00:52:24,743
but yeah, I guess that, that, that is kind
of interesting.

946
00:52:24,743 --> 00:52:33,061
Like, do you see, well it's sometimes cost
prohibitive on the site, the site side.

947
00:52:33,075 --> 00:52:38,335
Have you seen costs and some of this
obviously is still kind of like almost a

948
00:52:38,335 --> 00:52:41,135
supply chain from COVID hangover.

949
00:52:41,135 --> 00:52:48,475
Do you see their becoming scale and costs
associated with larger charging locations

950
00:52:48,475 --> 00:52:51,045
on the utility side coming down at all?

951
00:52:51,045 --> 00:52:54,655
Or is that still kind of a ways out you
think?

952
00:52:55,115 --> 00:52:56,056
Yeah, okay.

953
00:52:56,056 --> 00:52:57,846
think, I don't think we're there right
now.

954
00:52:57,846 --> 00:53:01,216
And I think that there are some programs
for, you know, Southern California

955
00:53:01,216 --> 00:53:04,956
utilities where you can like Salik
Lenniford Edison's rule 21, where they

956
00:53:04,956 --> 00:53:07,236
will pay for all the behind the meter
infrastructure.

957
00:53:07,236 --> 00:53:07,936
That's great.

958
00:53:07,936 --> 00:53:09,056
That's well and good.

959
00:53:09,056 --> 00:53:12,056
but when they pay for it, you're sitting
in line waiting for them to bring it.

960
00:53:12,056 --> 00:53:13,106
And that could be three years.

961
00:53:13,106 --> 00:53:16,496
It has been three years on many projects
that I'm aware of now.

962
00:53:16,496 --> 00:53:21,056
I don't think that we're to the point
where we have gotten ahead of the

963
00:53:21,056 --> 00:53:24,496
infrastructure deployment curve just
because outside of EV charging, there are

964
00:53:24,496 --> 00:53:28,796
many other industries that are, you know,
requiring substantially more power now.

965
00:53:28,796 --> 00:53:30,396
Data centers is a big part of that.

966
00:53:30,396 --> 00:53:33,408
The amount of energy a data center uses is
staggering.

967
00:53:33,408 --> 00:53:36,388
you know, and I'm not going to pretend
that I'm an expert and quote it, but they

968
00:53:36,388 --> 00:53:40,468
require the same infrastructure, the same
kinds of switch gear, the same kinds of

969
00:53:40,468 --> 00:53:42,408
transformers, and then some.

970
00:53:42,508 --> 00:53:47,028
So those projects to the utility are very
important because they're part of the IOT,

971
00:53:47,028 --> 00:53:48,308
the internet of things, right?

972
00:53:48,308 --> 00:53:51,708
In order to get our communities moving
more efficiently and more intelligently,

973
00:53:51,708 --> 00:53:56,128
but they also are a much larger customer
of the utility than the donut store and

974
00:53:56,128 --> 00:53:57,608
the DC fast chargers there, right?

975
00:53:57,608 --> 00:54:01,848
So the utility has got to be mindful of
its constituents funding and its resources

976
00:54:01,848 --> 00:54:02,848
as to what

977
00:54:02,848 --> 00:54:07,208
provides more revenue for the utility that
will then provide them more opportunity to

978
00:54:07,208 --> 00:54:08,780
provide power to everybody.

979
00:54:08,787 --> 00:54:10,087
Right.

980
00:54:10,087 --> 00:54:11,407
No, that's kind of interesting.

981
00:54:11,407 --> 00:54:14,567
Living here in central Oregon, it's the,
I'm trying to think of how many we have.

982
00:54:14,567 --> 00:54:18,727
We have Google, Apple, who else?

983
00:54:18,727 --> 00:54:19,767
Facebook.

984
00:54:19,887 --> 00:54:23,187
Surprised, like all of the big tech
companies have opened up data centers

985
00:54:23,187 --> 00:54:26,567
about like 20 miles east of here, just due
to the cheap power.

986
00:54:26,567 --> 00:54:31,627
And each of them pretty much have had the
ability for them to work with Pacific

987
00:54:31,627 --> 00:54:34,067
Power and BPA and just have their own.

988
00:54:34,067 --> 00:54:35,017
And you're totally right.

989
00:54:35,017 --> 00:54:38,547
It's a fascinating dynamic where it's
like, they only have.

990
00:54:38,547 --> 00:54:41,687
maybe a couple of locations across the US
that need this power.

991
00:54:41,687 --> 00:54:47,087
But the scale of it is so significant that
it buys up not only just so much of their

992
00:54:47,087 --> 00:54:54,926
own resources with the utilities, but also
the custom lines and power lines and

993
00:54:54,926 --> 00:54:58,567
everything that has to be built to just go
to these kind of random locations and the

994
00:54:58,567 --> 00:55:06,127
upgrades associated with it that I get the
business case and some of the other pros

995
00:55:06,127 --> 00:55:07,127
of doing that.

996
00:55:07,127 --> 00:55:08,466
But it's like,

997
00:55:09,699 --> 00:55:16,499
the scale is a bunch of, or a few very,
very, very large sites versus with what

998
00:55:16,499 --> 00:55:17,309
you're kind of dealing with.

999
00:55:17,309 --> 00:55:21,199
It's like maybe best case, some medium
sized cases, but a lot of them.

1000
00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:27,419
And I know that's even just a thing that,
especially with solar and people who are

1001
00:55:27,419 --> 00:55:30,379
trying to do some of these smaller
installations, like feeding into the grid,

1002
00:55:30,379 --> 00:55:34,499
trying to fight for the bandwidth almost
to get on there.

1003
00:55:34,499 --> 00:55:36,331
So yeah.

1004
00:55:36,979 --> 00:55:40,459
That could be unto itself, its own
podcast.

1005
00:55:40,679 --> 00:55:41,979
Yeah.

1006
00:55:42,499 --> 00:55:47,059
Complaining or trying to discover ways how
it can be improved.

1007
00:55:47,059 --> 00:55:49,339
Maybe let's put that way to be more
positive about it.

1008
00:55:49,339 --> 00:55:54,159
But I realized we're also kind of coming
up on the top of the hour here of our

1009
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:54,859
conversation.

1010
00:55:54,859 --> 00:55:59,219
And I just want to say thank you so much,
Lou, for coming back on, hoping to have

1011
00:55:59,219 --> 00:56:00,899
you again on soon.

1012
00:56:01,019 --> 00:56:02,771
And it's well to me how many.

1013
00:56:02,771 --> 00:56:05,351
Things have happened in the last few
months since we last spoke.

1014
00:56:05,351 --> 00:56:10,231
So I'm sure we'll have you on soon again
to talk about hopefully the all good new

1015
00:56:10,231 --> 00:56:13,355
things that have changed until next time.

1016
00:56:13,468 --> 00:56:14,938
Well, the pleasure has been all mine
Chase.

1017
00:56:14,938 --> 00:56:16,978
It's awesome to be on Great Connections
once again.

1018
00:56:16,978 --> 00:56:20,488
I really enjoy the conversation and the
breadth of your knowledge on all these

1019
00:56:20,488 --> 00:56:23,698
various topics and you let me nerd out a
little bit with you for an hour.

1020
00:56:23,698 --> 00:56:25,038
So I appreciate the time.

1021
00:56:25,038 --> 00:56:27,868
I mean, X -Charge appreciates the time and
if you need anything from me, you know

1022
00:56:27,868 --> 00:56:28,508
where to find me.

1023
00:56:28,508 --> 00:56:30,388
Looking forward to the next one.

1024
00:56:31,268 --> 00:56:32,628
You too.

1025
00:56:36,448 --> 00:56:37,864
All right, we get it.