Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Matt.
I'm very excited to have you here today because we've been trying for
a while to find, uh, find and meet in the same place at the same time.
So today's the day.
Welcome, Matt.
Matt: Thank you.
I'm really glad to be here and thanks for your patience and, uh, and just thanks for
your message that's out there too and what you're making available to people who, um,
really want to feel enriched and fortified in their relationship with their dogs.
Anke: Oh, I love, I love how you said that.
I might steal that.
So, let's start out, let people know where in this lovely world are you based,
and what's your business with dogs?
Matt: I'm currently based in Austin, Texas.
We moved here about three and a half years ago.
We were, prior to that, we were based in Los Angeles, California.
And I am by profession, I'm a certified professional dog trainer, a family dog
mediator, a licensed trainer in that area.
And I am on a personal mission to help support transformation
in humans with their dogs.
And what that means is, um, really lending a lot of support and consideration towards
the human involved in the human dog relationship, uh, that will always benefit
dogs if humans feel more supported.
And there's a lot of parallels, as, as you know, and probably maybe a number of
your listeners would know too, there's a lot of parallels in the motto that, that's
what's good for the dog is good for me.
And I would even go so far as to say what's good for a
dog is good for the world.
So that's my general scope of things.
Um, I started training about 16 years ago, and I should put training
in quotes, because when I started, I was actually afraid of dogs.
I'd been bit by a dog on Halloween when I was a kid, about 7 years old, and I, I
was afraid of dogs well into adulthood, and I didn't know how to talk about it
or who to talk to, and I was ashamed, and I saw an episode of, uh, of a TV
show that was very popular at the time.
And in that episode, that dog trainer helped a grown man
get over his fear of dogs.
And I thought that was possible.
I didn't know that that was ever going to be possible for me.
And, um, and at that time, while I was watching that episode, I was,
I was living with somebody, my girlfriend at the time and her dog.
Um, who is a nine month old terrier, which just meant he had a lot of feelings
about things and a lot of opinions.
and a lot of needs, but he was, um, he was understandably
incorrectly judged as aggressive.
So here I am afraid of dogs, and I'm living with this mighty, mighty terrier,
and this terrier is probably thinking, what have I done to deserve this guy?
Um, but I was, uh, I'm open about this too.
So I want to include this in, in this, um, little intro here that, um, I was
at the same time, I was also recovering from a pretty bad problem with alcohol.
And, uh, and so I was getting sober and I don't recommend
detoxing and moving in with a dog.
That's a nine month old terrier when you're afraid of dogs.
I don't recommend that for anybody.
Uh, but that's how I started.
And part of what this dog who he would become my dog, my girlfriend and I, we
split up, but the dog ended up With me, um, part of what Kingston gave me was
access to the world again, because I was terrified, I didn't know how to behave
in the world, much like a dog might feel, I didn't, I didn't feel like I belonged,
and, um, I needed to get him out, A, to go to the bathroom, B, to go explore
the world, and so helping him literally got me back out in the world again.
And that was the beginning of it.
And then, um, I've had a lot of opportunities and experience in my
life, and I'm what we would now call as a crossover trainer, and, and, uh, I'm
so grateful to, to know what I know now and have the support that I have, and to
be able to share, um, transparently and openly about where I've come from, why
it seems like it works, what the harm might be, why it doesn't necessarily work,
and to be honest about the frustrations, because I think It's really hard on dog
people in general because, um, they think the trainers have it figured out and they
don't know that, that, um, that we have struggles, struggles just like theirs.
Uh, and we have, hopefully we have places we can go and learn and
practice and, and, and evolve.
But I, I just know that if I didn't get the kind of support that I've gotten,
even though people were justifiably critical of what I, what I had put out
there, particularly on a television show.
If I hadn't gotten the support, um, I wouldn't be able to show up for
my dogs the way that I do today.
So that's part of my personal mission here too.
Anke: Wow, I love that you're sharing all of that because I think there's a lot
of shame in, you know, even like, like not even just professionals, but like
people who feel, I know this isn't quite right, but I don't know what else to do
and nothing else seems to be working.
And I, in my own experience, I like, my, my whole, for me,
it all started with this guy.
And, you know, and he got bitten when he was little.
And so he was like stressed and, and everybody told me, you know,
you have to tell them who's boss.
And, and, you know, and I was in this, like, it doesn't make sense to me.
This little dog doesn't look like as he is, he's trying to take over the world.
But like, I didn't have an alternative.
Like, I didn't know else to look.
And everybody.
kind of looked at me as if I'm nuts.
And so it kind of can be quite lonely when you don't actually have.
It feels like that's why I'm so passionate about to bring people together.
We said, well, yeah, actually now we have access to other information
and, and, and better ways.
So how did you, I mean, actually like one question to start, like at what point
did you know from, okay, I've gotten my over my own fear and I've gotten.
Sort of really, this relationship has given me a lot to, oh, actually I want
to help other people with their dogs.
And, um, and then I'm curious about sort of that, that
transition, but we'll get to that.
Matt: Yeah.
Thank you.
I want to just touch on something you said I think is really important and
that's the isolation that people feel.
Um, that's, that's, that's an experience people are having worldwide,
obviously, given the conflict that we're in, this feeling that we're
not a part of, we're apart from.
Um, and we're, unfortunately, we're no better off in the dog world, maybe even
more polarizing, I suppose, in many ways.
Um, cause that's really a, really hard place to be.
Um, um, living with a dog is hard.
It's hard for the dog.
It's hard for the human.
Uh, but living with a dog with behaviors that lead to isolation, that's, that's
really common and it's really difficult.
And, um, and that's, uh, uh, there's a lot of despair that comes from that.
So.
So for me, um, I think that, I think, uh, uh, in your instant, in answer
to your question, there was, I had this sense, even as people, even as
my clients were saying, I'm seeing amazing changes in, in my dog.
I had this sense when we were at the height of our popularity in Los
Angeles with a, with a community of dogs that were not, they were
kicked out of other daycares.
They weren't welcome in other daycares.
They couldn't pass personality tests.
Um, I had this sense that it didn't matter how afraid I was,
I needed to be able to help them.
And there was a really important shift for me when I had a chance to hear Dr.
Ian Dunbar speak and actually speak with him privately.
And he said, he'd said at the time, roughly 90 percent
of aggression is fear based.
And I could relate to that so much as a human that I really, most of what
I have done is because I was afraid.
And I thought maybe if I, if I can scare you or if I can make
you go away, you know, like there would, that would bring me relief.
So that was a really healthy anthropomorphization for me
to consider dogs differently.
And once I begin to see the behavior from different, different motives
than what I was assigning them, I didn't take the behavior personally.
And that saved me so much stress and Um, it really was the cure for
my fear that the thing that I was afraid of, having been bitten by a
German Shepherd all those years ago, was based on a misunderstanding.
And the Shepherd was wagging its tail on Halloween when I was seven years
old and I reached for the bucket.
And the adults, knowing what they knew and not knowing what
they didn't know, they all said a wagging tail means the dog is happy.
And we know professionally that that's not the reality of it.
So getting that gift of objectivity and context and consideration for the behavior
really changed my, changed my life.
But as you know, there's, you know, when one is considered the, the
expert and I was not the expert, I still don't consider myself an expert
though I'm 16 years in the field here.
But when we go to the expert for the solution, um,
oftentimes we just need relief.
I'm kind of shocked when my clients will say, you know, that one phone
call we had really made a difference.
And I'm, I'm grateful that I have learned how to offer support in a 20 minute
phone call or in a single session.
But I, and I know there's so much more.
There's so much more opportunity and growth, etc.
So when I'm talking to people at that height of our popularity, and they're
saying, you know, I'm following some of your recommendations, and we're
seeing some amazing changes, and I know that there's something else,
like, but I can't stop this 15, 15 person staff facility, that's 24
7, like, I can't stop the machine.
What am I going to do about this?
And, um, the timing was quite interesting because at that point
we had the first season of this television show that I did that was out.
And when I watched the rough draft of the television show before it
went public, I looked at it and I thought, I don't like what I'm doing
and I don't like how I'm doing it.
And there's things I wish I had done differently or things that
I wish I hadn't done at all.
And this is going to be a problem.
And so.
Before the, the understandable professional backlash to that
show, before that even happened, I reached out to somebody asking
for help because I needed new help.
And, uh, and that person, um, I've talked about this quite a bit, that person was
Michael Shikashio, and Michael Shikashio, bless him, the first thing he said is,
your name seems kind of familiar, and, uh, and, um, it must be hard for you
to work with dogs and learn new things with all the controversy around you.
What an unbelievably
generous, uh, person.
offering he made, you know, and so I started picking his brain.
And then when we got a chance to film a second season, I said, I I'm going to,
I'm going to show the evolution of a dog trainer myself, and I'm committed to
becoming a certified, the only certified professional dog trainer on television.
At that time, maybe, maybe not anymore, but I said, I'm going
to use this as an opportunity.
And the network said, that's great, man.
We'll let you do that.
But really like, don't, don't focus on education too much.
Cause it's not going to sell.
That's what I was told.
Anke: Yeah.
That's
Matt: so,
Anke: Oh, that
Matt: journey has been a weird one.
Um, but that's like, that's a, that's a segment of it when we're
talking about, you know, how do I grow and where the fear is?
That's, that's been a, That's a really meaty part of it because I
I was being publicly reinforced.
Yeah.
I knew better and I knew I needed help and I didn't know how to get the
help and I couldn't stop the machine.
That's
Anke: such a difficult one because on the one hand you've got the exposure to reach
a lot of people and on the other hand you don't Control over doing it with your way.
It's like, ooh, that's like, that's almost worse than not reaching people, right.
Than sort of reaching them with something you're not really standing behind anymore.
Yeah.
So what's the biggest change in how you work with people?
Or like, what's the outcome?
Like what's the.
What, for you, what feels like, and then sometimes, you know, on the outside
people might just be happy now and they were happy, like, you know, like it may
not be that visible on the outside, but what's the biggest difference for you?
Matt: Well, I would say for me, um, I, I have Um, I have just learned how to
simplify everything, which is interesting because I know, I know so much more
than I ever did, and I have a better contextual understanding of what I've
done, uh, than I ever have, and really it's quite simple, like, I'm here to help
take the pressure off you and your dog.
That's it.
And, and what does that look like?
Well, let's talk about it.
Where do you really have the greatest struggles?
Well, on the leash with walking.
Okay.
How's your dog sleeping?
He doesn't sleep very well.
You know, he's easily disturbed and okay.
So he might have a hard time on the walks if he's not sleeping well.
Oh, okay.
You know what I mean?
And then we start to build a basis that's a foundation that or build or, or fortify
a foundation that's wellness based.
What does your dog like to do and love to do?
What's its genetic predisposition?
Are you getting any of those needs met?
Uh, not really.
Well, my dog loves fetch, but he's just hyper obsessed.
Uh, that's so Hyper focus might not be great for the nervous system, but
is there a way that we can utilize that in a way that's going to be
fulfilling for this dog, you know?
I just keep coming back to how do I take the pressure off?
So I feel much more nimble and skilled.
And I guess the other thing, even though we're in a results driven
business and industry and arguably world, I'm really comfortable
going in and saying, I don't know.
I don't know.
We're going to find out and I'm going to ask your dog.
And that is also a cornerstone.
I'm going to help take pressure off by way of learning what is
and isn't pressure for your dog.
And then everything else like we can fill in the blanks with.
You know,
Anke: I love that.
I think that, you know, the Tiggernet really reminds me of
how similar we actually are.
You know, when I work with people in my, you know, with clients in my
work, that's people, you know, first thing is let's take the pressure, zero
pressure, like let's, You know, just relax into it because we just function
better when, you know, and dogs are the same, animal, anybody is the same.
And, and I love the, the holistic approach that we don't just fix
the symptoms because if we go to the root of it, then most of the
time there's nothing left to fix.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah, that is right.
And that's been, that's been amazing.
Like anecdotally, I can say in the last few years that I've committed to working
that way that easily 60 to 70 percent of the quote behavior problems go away.
And I didn't do any training.
Yeah.
I I'm not even comfortable really calling myself a trainer.
And I don't think I even think like at best, I'm a learner.
Like I come in, I'm the learner.
I'm the primary learner.
And the dog is the teacher, and then the other people are observers, and then
I can, I can, I can, the dog's people, they're learning also, but, but really
like, let's create a space where we have the freedom to observe, and then
we'll build up our learning experience.
Anke: So you're the translator, basically.
You understand dog, and then you explain, you know, I think you, your job is to
help the dog's people to actually be able to understand what the dog's saying.
Matt: Yes.
I would actually take it a step further because I feel very strongly that I am
not the Zen dog, but I'm its curator.
And, and the, the ethos of the Zen dog is that we have the freedom to
explore and express who we are as dogs.
And that the, the logo of the Zen dog, which is not the logo behind me, that's
actually a project that I'm working on in the same spirit, but the logo of
the Zen dog has an open ended circle.
Because there's always more information to get and, spoiler alert, if anybody
looks at the Zen Dog logo, you will find in the middle of the logo
is the image of a sitting Buddha.
That's in the pad of the Zen Dog logo so that one can practice being at peace
with growth and life and the unknown.
Being comfortable with being uncomfortable is a skill set that I had to learn and it
has changed my life and my work with dogs.
Anke: Yeah.
And I would, I would bet my life that it would actually apply
to all areas of life as well.
Matt: I
Anke: love that.
So if somebody wants to find out more and get in touch with you,
what's the best place to go?
Matt: Well, you can find us at thezendog.
com.
And, uh, one of the things that I'm really, I really appreciate about our, our
business model is, uh, that I'm accessible and you can book a 20 minute free courtesy
Zoom or a phone consult at any time.
Happy to talk to anybody, anywhere, anytime, if I can be helpful.
And then I'm, um, I'm generally pretty active on Instagram and, uh, and
Facebook, but I've been quiet lately in part, because I'm working on a
project called Dog Pupil Evolution, which is a global conference, which
is sent to launch in late 2025.
And we will have, uh, over 20 virtual speakers.
And, um, 10 live speakers.
The live presentation is going to be held outside of Stockholm, Sweden.
And we have a lot of new voices, amazing voices, uh, really well
known voices in the dog care field.
And we are gathering for one single purpose, and that's
to support human change.
Because if we want to help more dogs, we have to learn how to help more humans.
And, uh, That, that will be available.
Tickets will be available soon.
Promotions will go out soon and, um, and that's my goal.
My goal is to help the people that, that, that love their dog but want
a new, know new ways to love them.
Anke: I love that.
Matt: Do that without shame, without judgment, and in a
Anke: community.
I love that.
So when that promo goes out, please let me know.
I would love to share, help share the message and spread the word.
So thank you so much.
And, um, this was an absolute delight, and I hope it won't be
the last time that we've met.
Matt: It won't.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.