Welcome to the Sound On Sound people and music industry podcast channel. We talk to engineer Dean James Barrett, looking at what it takes to be a successful mix engineer. That's the person who takes a raw multitrack and turns it into a polished sounding track.  It's a role that requires both creativity and technical skill, and it's not an easy career to get into, but it can be a uniquely rewarding one. 

To explore this role, I'm joined by Dean James Barrett. He's a mix engineer whose credits include Shy FX, Joy Crooks, Ray BLK, James Vickery, Rag and Bone Man, Craig David, Jess Glynn, and many more.  Thanks for your time Dean, much appreciated.  So, mixing is a notoriously competitive business. How did your own career get off the ground? 

I mean, I started off on, I think, more of a traditional route, which might not be so common nowadays. But it was sort of making tea in recording studios and just, you know, hanging about and trying to help out where I could. I was lucky enough to Start working with, uh, there's a guy called Brian Tewitt who was a, um, He was the drummer in a band, a ska band called Bad Manners.

And he had a studio down in Guilford, um, which is close to where I kind of grew up.  There's a lot of, like, local bands cutting demos in there on Fostex sort of 16 track tape machines, and I think it was a Mackie desk, and you know It was it was a budget studio, but it was it was vibey So I was able to kind of see how bands worked and recordings worked But but didn't get in too technical with everything because it was all a bit of a  Hit and Hope, I think, was a  good sort of way to describe it.

But, um, so then I  sort of just went to different studios. I worked with a guy called Kenny Denton, who did a lot of work in the 70s and 80s with a lot of different bands. And he worked at CTS doing a lot of, um, uh, film recording with orchestras.  And he had his own studio in Chiswick, um, and I was signing on at the time and it was the um, Job Seekers Allowance that the, as a scheme the government did, I don't know if they do it anymore, but they allowed the employer to only pay you half of your wage and then the government would make up the other half.

It made a really good incentive then for people to take On, like, Apprentices, I suppose, and things like that, so It was quite handy, so he only had to pay me half what he normally would  And, I got to learn, I got a bit more in depth I became, instead of making tea, I became more of a, Because there was all these stages you had to go through as an engineer  Making tea as a tape op, just recording and arming the right tracks And playing it back and recording the right places And also splicing tape together Uh, there was Pro Tools there, but we didn't really use it at the time.

And, um, we, we, you know, slowly but surely, I was able to kind of get on the desk,  run the compressors and set the mics up.  Um, and then, um, and then I moved, there was a new studio that was being built in Battersea called Sphere Studios.  And it was a lot of the guys and staff from, um, Air Studios. Um, they'd kind of moved over. 

It's like Malcolm Atkin, uh, Patty Nolder was the, um, studio manager there and it was built by, uh, a guy called Frank Camelli. He's now moved to L. A. with, uh, Sphere. The, the desk was bigger, the room was bigger, the clients were bigger, and, you know, the, the pressure and the stress was, was also bigger. So it's kind of, and also, cause it was a bigger studio, I kind of got demoted back down to  You know, I was making tea again and saying on mics, even though I've been doing it for however many years. 

That was the route taken, um, and I think it kind of, it pivoted then because it felt like such a struggle and you're always in the studio and you're trying to move on and it takes so much time. Um, but I bumped into  A guy, um, a good friend of mine now, uh, Nitin Sawney, who had booked, um, a session at Sphere Studios.

He was actually doing an album for, um, Cirque du Soleil at the time. Um, and I got very involved as an assistant engineer and  kind of became integral to the setup of everything.  And, um, we had to, they had to fly out to Canada to do all of the  The recording of the artist from the show, because the show was based out there. 

Um, and he said, well, do you want to come with me? So I, I went out and he got talking and basically said, you know, I really need an engineer for all the stuff that I'm doing.  You know, would you, would you be interested? And I, I, I, yeah, I jumped at the chance because I, I, I love all the, all the stuff Nitin does.

And, and, and the places he travels to, like, you know, he goes all around the world recording. It was very appealing.  Um, and that kind of took me out of the big studios, which was probably the right sort of time because it was at that point that  a lot of them were closing down because of the, it was a hard business because  the money wasn't really there to, you know, justify a thousand pound a day studio for writing and recording.

It's, uh, you know, it was more rehearsal rooms. Everything was more programmed. Streaming was, had come in so that all the physical sales were down massively.  So it just kind of made sense to, to kind of,  leave, leave that behind, but not forget what it had taught me, you know. Then everything was very much in the box.

So then my,  my sort of,  learn, you know, learning all of the software and everything came from  You know, going from completely one side to the other.  But when we did do big recording sessions, it was great because we could go into the studios and, you know, I knew how to use everything. And it was, it was, you know, like bouncing a ball really after the amount of time I'd spent doing it.

So  it was, um, it's basically through that. And then, um, as, as time went on, I decided to get my own sort of. Production room, if you like, um, work in the box, um, but, but weirdly, slowly, but surely, um, I've started getting more and more outboard again, because it's, uh, I just felt like something was missing with, um,  uh, with just in the box, you know, it was just, there was something that, there's great records that are made in the box that actually probably couldn't be made  with hardware,  but the way I work is kind of,  Mixing the two together really, so I kind of do like a, a usual sort of, you know, mix on the outboard and with the desk and everything, and then everything gets stemmed back into the computer. 

For all the minor tweaks and pushes and analyzing and all that sort of stuff, so. So yeah, it's a big, big circle really, which kind of comes, comes back to  the age old thing of digital and analog and using the best of both worlds. That takes us up to the point where you decided to go freelance. You gave up the security of having a single employer in order to try and build a wider client base.

Yeah, well that's, that's, that's the thing, because when I was with Nitin I was, um,  you know, solely employed by, by him. I think I was even on PAYE at the time, so it was, so I wasn't officially freelance until  I got a room and I was, I was, I was really good friends with, uh, another great producer and songwriter called Craig Dodds. 

And, um, he,  we worked together a lot with, uh, different things used to get me into do some programming, uh, drum programming, beat making, uh, vocal comping.  And what I found was, was that if you were,  I was able then to do work with Craig and from the people that Craig introduced me to Um, it was, it was very much uh,  being in the right place I suppose And what I, the reason for that I, I must put down to um, being in studio complexes Where there's a, there's a community of people working  So at the time I think I'd had a room in uh, townhouse studios  Which is not there anymore, but it's in Goldhawk Road, uh, just by, um,  just by Shepherd's Bush, isn't it, I think.

Um, and also, I think with Nitin, he had moved, he had a home studio, and he also moved to Matrix in Parsons Green. And when I was there, there was, there was a few other people that I started working with. Um, I think I did some work with Steve Robson and a few other people there. And before I knew it, I, instead of working for one person, I, I seemed to have like a small network of producers. 

That would, you know, call me up when they needed help with something, or the project was growing, or they needed an extra pair of hands to push it over the line, or something like that. So, I think a lot of it was,  was being at these complexes, and being someone that was A, competent and able to do the job that was needed to be done.

But,  also be a person that you can spend like, you know, so it's a long, long period of time in the studio. And, and, and not wind someone up the wrong way, you know. I think it's, it's like Kenny, Kenny Denton was telling me that  he reckons that, he says about 40 percent of the job is, is knowing the technical side of things.

But it's the other 60 percent which is  being that kind of person that  You know, people want a round. Do you know what I mean? It can just be, I mean, you could be the greatest, um, engineer in the world, but,  you know, if you can't get on with people, you're not going to be working.  Yeah, going back to the question, I think it's, it's,  you know, complexes, and I think, I think there's a lot of them now, especially I think the biggest one in London is probably Tire Yard. 

In Kings Cross, I mean, I think I heard not just studios, but offices. I think they have about 75 rooms there or something like that. And it's, uh, you know, and growing. So it's a great hub  of, um, meeting people, networking. And it's, it's, there's an art, I think, of networking. I don't think I've mastered it at all, but it's the kind of,  um,  you know, talking about work, getting work.

But not seeming like that's  what you're doing. It's a really, really strange thing, especially with the music business. If you really want something and chase it, and are seen to be doing so, it's almost frowned upon. It's really weird. Like in every other business aspect, that would be completely normal.

Yeah, I guess you've got to be able to take opportunities without coming across as pushy. You've also got to be able to be in the same room as other people for 12 hours at a time and be creative without actually wanting to kill each other. Yeah, because I mean, all barriers have to be broken down, I think, including, you know, things like ego and stuff like that, because that can just really kill a creative process. 

And I think as an engineer,  you really do need to understand  what the goal is that everyone's trying to get to.  You know, musically, if you understand someone or are into the same thing or you find something quite challenging about,  um, the work, whether it's the technically or,  or artistically, but  somehow that's a problem that you need to solve. 

Um, and it, I think it bonds people together, you know, cause it's, um, cause you're kind of solving these, these puzzles at the same time.  So the fact that more and more records are being made at home rather than in commercial studios kind of undermines that a bit. Yeah, yeah, I think so too. I think there's um, I mean working at home is great for,  you know, getting your ideas together and,  um,  I mean even then I do think, I mean okay, I don't think there's many great records made by committee.

You know, I think there needs a common sort of goal of either an artist or  Producer that, you know, really knows where they want to go with something, but I do feel having a team of people around you sharing that common goal is, is a much better situation than  one size fits all or one, you know, one guy trying to do everything. 

I think it's quite, I think there's some, you know, especially in certain genres of music. I think there's, there used to be maybe not so much now, but  if the producer hadn't recorded it. Written it, mixed it, mastered it, then they weren't really,  you know, proper. It's ridiculous now, you know.  Cause it's um, I mean, you've got bouncing ideas of other people and using people's skills where,  where you, if you lack in a certain area and you've got someone that picks that area up, then that's great.

You know.  So that next stage, where you make the decision to get out on your own and break out into a kind of wider creative community, that moment seems to make a massive difference to people. That's a defining moment for you. Oh yeah, definitely, because that's the moment where you're essentially on your own.

Because you've always been under the cover or wing of someone else that's,  you know, you can rely on to a certain degree. Um, and then when you suddenly go  Freelance and now you've got to do your own invoices, sort your own tax out and pay rent on not just your home, but your studio space as well. The costs can mount quite quickly and if you're not  bringing in enough to cover all of that, then it can very, very quickly get to a situation where it's like, oh, I've got to let this go and step down.

So it's very sort of not step down forever, but just, you know, to make, um.  Make ends meet, you might have to let go of the studio for a little bit, but  It's um, it can be really tough, really tough, especially when starting out like that When you make that jump to freelance, it can be so daunting  I mean it depends what area you're going into, I mean as a producer  Do you need your own room? 

I don't know really I mean, you could, I know a lot of producers that had their own rooms And now, they, they write a lot of stuff at home and then they'll, they'll meet up in a nice sounding, treated room and record the vocals and But then if you're mixing, then that's different, because you kind of, you need your tools, you need  everything else, so  It depends what field you're going into, but I, but definitely that kind of moving from  the security of a monthly payment to,  um  Freelance and figuring out when the next, next pay's coming in is, is, is, is one of the most daunting things I think I've ever done. 

How do you define yourself now and the role of mix engineer?  Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm purely a mix engineer and then, but I think, I think you also have to kind of,  Not limit yourself to, to, to just one role. So, like I say, like I said before, if there's like producers that have been in a writing room, uh, recording vocals, uh, and they've got their track together,  there's kind of like a, this kind of gap, I think, between that section there and then going to mix.

There's this kind of like post production.  Part that sometimes doesn't quite get done So that's great for me because that's that's something I can do I can take the the tracks that are already  Kind of there they need a mix, but they also need a little bit of something else Maybe it's like an arrangement in the tune or maybe it's some additional parts or layering on the on on whatever it may be.

So  it's my role is primarily a mix engineer, but  Uh, there's a lot more additional production happening at the moment, I think just with the way that everything's set up,  um, with rooms and, uh, you know, a lot of people at home and, and things like that. So, I mean, I, I, I didn't know I was a mix engineer for  ages.

I, I was, I was a recording engineer for a long time when I was working in the, the studios  and then I was, um, I wanted to be a producer.  Um, and I love making tunes and, and making, making records, but it was, um, I was always torn between the art, sort of artistic and technical side, because I've been traveling that road,  you know, for so many years and the technical side of stuff, it fascinated me and the artistic side did as well, but,  um, I just had to play to my strengths, to be honest, which was, um,  So that's why I've ended up a mix engineer, not a superstar producer. 

So a really big question is, what makes the difference between success and failure in this kind of role? What's your USP? What makes you special and ultimately, I suppose, employable?  I think you've got to treat  every mix like it could be your last.  Because,  it, I, I, I really do think you're, you're constantly judged on pretty much the last thing that,  that you're put, you, you've put out, you know, because it's um, Even if you've got,  I don't know if that's necessarily true actually, but I, but I do think that you,  if any time you get complacent,  um, especially, With an existing client that, that's, you know, you've been with for a, for a, for a long period of time. 

Um,  Even though it feels like that will never end, it, it always can. That is something that you really do need to realize and not take for granted because at any point,  you know, that, that long term client that, you know, you're, you're best friends with and  um,  You know making up  quite a large percentage of your income.

I mean, if you imagine that that just  went,  then it would be a really, really big  problem. So I think, um, you can never take anything for granted and always make sure that the last thing you you work on or mix or or do or produce or whatever is, is,  you've  turned over every possible stone Um, to see  You know, to make sure that, that there's nothing you've missed out or made a mistake on or doesn't quite sound right or, you know, it's just you have to cover every single  bass because, um,  I think I was, someone was telling me it was, it was unrelated to music, but, um, seeing as you're talking more on the business side, uh, he said to me,  if you have a client that  makes up to 30 percent of your income, then that's a problem. 

Because if that client disappears, goes, fall out, whatever happens, then that's 30 percent of your income gone, which usually for most people, especially in London I think, you know, that's, that's, then you can't afford your rent sort of thing. So I think spreading,  spreading your bets, um, is, is a much safer place to be in.

But it's hard work because obviously,  you know, there's a lot of people to to please and make happy  and with with those Clients, it's not just that the artist of you know, as you know when it comes with major labels and managers and  radio pluggers and You you do then have to start pleasing the committee  That's fantastic, Dean.

Thanks very much. Very informative, very interesting, and I'm sure it will be really useful to anyone considering this sort of career.  This has been the Sound On Sound podcast with Mix Engineer Dean James Barrett.  Thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all the other episodes. 

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