Today we're listening to a monument to perfect.
The most pristine engineering, some of the greatest studio
musicians to ever live, asked to play take
after take after grueling take until they got it absolutely
perfect, and even then, sometimes it wasn't perfect
enough. So much so, that the engineer of this album had to invent a
machine to play it the way
that the band wanted it. After all was said and done, we got a
masterpiece, we really did, but it came at a cost.
We didn't get another Steely Dan album for another 20 years.
Today, we're listening to
Gaucho.
I'm Adam Maness.
And I'm Peter Martin.
And you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast.
Music, explored.
Explored, brought to you today by Open Studio.
Go to openstudiojazz.com for all your jazz listen needs.
Peter, I just went through the full extent of my vocal range for that intro.
I thought you-
La,
la, la, la, la, la, la, little warm up?
Appreciate it!
Yes. Well, I've got something special for you today. Are you ready?
Uh, r- for me?
Yeah, we're, we're jumping right in, my friend.
Okay, what do you got?
Adam, let me take you to a magnificent and
mythical place.
Mm-hmm.
A place where the highway finally ends, a place where the sun melts
into the Pacific.
Hmm.
A little place called Southern Cali.
Mm.
The San Gabriel Mountains in the distance, the San Fernando Valley
sprawling out below. Palm trees-
I can see it
... against the golden haze. The Sunset Strip, Hollywood, those hot
Santa Ana winds blowing in from the desert, the whole city shimmering
like a promise it may or may not keep. It's 1980.
Yeah.
It's late. We'll hit up one of those off-brand LA car rental spots.
You know, the kind, they only take debit cards, 'cause that's all we've got, but
we've got taste. We'll bring a little Kirschwasser, and
then...
Drive west on Sunset to the
sea.
Turn that jungle music down-
Well done
... just until we're out of
town.
This is no one-night stand,
it's a real occasion.
Close your eyes and you'll be there, it's
everything they say.
Hmm.
The end of a perfect day,
distant lights from across the bay.
Babylon sisters, shake
it!
Babylon sisters, shake
it.
So fine, so young.
Tell me I'm the only
one.
Oh!
Here
come those Santa Ana winds
again.
Shimmering, shimmering, the
valley.
We'll jog with the showboats-
Okay, so what are we listening to today?
What are you doing? What are you doing?
We've got a whole album to get through!
Why are we stopping?
Oh, okay, we listen- okay.
Oh, my God.
This is fun.
Peter, stop.
Is this a podcast or a listening party?
Guys, stop that.
Well, I should know by now
that it's just a spasm. Like
a Sunday in TJ, that it's cheap
but it's not free.
Oh, that's changed.
That I'm not what I...
Ooh!
... used to be, and that love's not a
game for three. Babylon
sisters, shake
it!
Babylon sisters, shake
it.
So fine, so young. Tell
me I'm the only
one.
Good eye, birdie.
Oh.
Ah.
Ah, Peter!
Well, I... No, I was just gonna s- just step in and let folks know what we're
listening to today. I think everybody knows.
They are-
This is Gaucho.
Yeah, yeah.
We jumped right in, man.
No, they know, they know, they know.
We got plenty more to listen to.
Dude, the bar has been raised with that intro.
It's so good.
Yeah.
Is there... By the way, so okay, so
an incredible opening track.
Yeah.
"Babylon Sisters," uh, from 1980's Gaucho.
Yeah.
So of course, Steely Dan's Gaucho, uh, released November 21st, 1980, recorded in
two years, over two years, 1978 to 1980, in New
York City and LA. It's on the MCA record label.
Almost entirely in New York City, by the way.
Almost-
Which is ironic, 'cause it's the most, uh, it's like-
I mean-
... the ultimate LA, Southern California
... that feels like being in Southern California, that whole song.
All this was recorded in New York.
It won the Grammy for Best Engineered Recording.
Yeah.
It lost Album of the Year to Double Fan- Double Fantasy, John Lennon's Double
Fantasy.
Yeah.
Uh, of course, yeah, Steely Dan, at the, at the moment that this was made, really
was just a two-member band.
Yeah.
By that point, it had been building down.
It wasn't a band, even. Would you call it a band?
It was... It's a band, yeah, it's a band.
It's a musical organization.
It's, but it's, it's Donald Fagen and Walter Becker-
Yep
... and then a bunch of, uh, like, a smattering
of, uh, uh, why don't... A gaggle?
A gaggle.
I don't know what the, the collection of, of professional studio
musicians, what that, what that, uh, pronoun would be called, but-
Well, I think it's just the A-team, right?
It's like-
It's the A-team.
Yeah.
And there's so many-
Maybe it's, uh, like, a-... yeah, a recording of musicians?
Right. It was, it was the top-
You know how it's like, it's like-
The top tier
... a gaggle of geese.
A gaggle of geese.
You know, I mean, a pride of lions.
Right.
It would be like the, I don't know, the-
A muse of musicians.
The, the first call of musicians.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but-
And there was a little bit of competition then, and, I mean, there still is.
It, the, the recording scene is different, though.
New York City versus LA, East Coast versus West Coast studio
musician, who are the best? And look, some of these, Steve Gadd obviously was...
Well, all of them recorded on both coasts.
But I mean, there was some stuff about, like, are these, are the New York City
musicians up to the level from their previous records from Aja, from the stuff
they'd been doing when they were based out of Southern California?
Yeah.
I think it's fantastic. I'm a- I'm, uh, very surprised that there was a little bit
of Steely Dan talk of, like, they felt like they had to push harder to get the kind
of-
Well
... perfection they were going for.
We can talk more about that later, but it seems like no matter who was doing what,
it wasn't, wasn't good enough-
Right
... for Donald Fagen at this point, making this album.
You know, they, they really pushed the envelope of,
like, really shooting for perfection.
This album was produced by Gary Katz and engineered by Roger Nichols,
um, an incredible feat of engineering.
Yeah.
I think that's... If that's not the best-sounding Rhodes sound in the
history of recorded music, I don't know what it is.
It's incredible. Shout-out Don Grolnick, the, the, the legendary...
I mean, it's so great. Let's just listen a little bit, just at the beginning again,
so we can focus on that. Because I do think, we talk about how do these records
start, these classic records, these, these records that we love so much,
and I think the first statement matters so much.
For sure.
And this may be one of the
strongest... It's interesting, 'cause I don't even think this is gonna show up as
either of our favorite Steely Dan records of all time.
Ooh, I just dropped that bomb. There you go.
But, like, this may be the best start to any record
from this period, and is right up there.
I mean, just for how, how, how you walk into the room.
You know how somebody walks in the room, sometimes after you get to know them,
you're like, "Ah, not quite on the level of the walk-in," but the walk-in is
something, right?
Agree.
You look nervous.
Well-
Don't be.
First of all, Purdie.
Purdie, I mean-
And Chuck Rainey.
Right.
I mean, do you like your rhythm sections in pairs?
Because-
Indeed I do. Indeed I do, yeah.
And Don Grolnick, the sound, as you said.
The phase on it perfectly.
Oh!
It's...
Perfect Rhodes sound.
Perfect-
Honestly, perfect everything sound-
Yeah
... isn't
it?
So okay, I agree. It's an incredible way...
I, I mean, nothing's the best in art, right?
We can't really put them up against each other, but do you like this better than
Black Cow, starting Aja? I think it's right there. I think this is S tier.
I think this is, like-
I agree. Agree
... for starting out the record, like... And I think that's something where...
And, and, you know, we're gonna probably talk about the ups and, you know, the pros
and cons of Steely Dan, I mean, of Walter Becker and Donald Fagen's
obsession with perfection and detail-oriented.
I think that these kind of things, how the, how the tracks start, how the
fade-outs, the precision of that, as listeners, year after year,
we're very much rewarded by their pursuit of perfection.
100%.
In some other areas, maybe with so- a, a little bit of an antiseptic
nature added by drum program and things like that, we could say maybe they
went overboard with some of that. You could debate that, but I think in terms of,
like-
It, it's an interesting conversation, Peter, because it's kind of like what makes
it so strong can also be, like, on the flip side.
You know, sometimes it really works-
Yeah
... and sometimes it's like, "Ah."
Right.
"I need a little more dirt on this somehow," you know what I mean?
But I mean, in terms of, like, this is...
There, there, there's no Wendel, there's no, um, drum...
We, we'll, we'll talk about who Wendel is, uh, later on.
Who's Wendel? Is Wendel like the-
Wendel
... the guy that washes-
Wendel
... washes the inside windows? Who's Wendel?
Stick around to learn about Wendel.
Um, no, but I mean, this is Bernard Purdie, and we're, we're gonna hear him kind of
breaking this groove down. This is the-
That's the Purdie Shuffle.
It's the Purdie Shuffle. This is, like, one of the most iconic grooves of all time.
But, uh, this is the thing, though.
You could just have Purdie and Rainey come in and start grooving over a blues-
Yeah
... or just grooving over this, and it's gonna be fantastic.
I think what the Steely Dan touches for this intro, and D- Don Grolnick
just play some cool bluesy stuff on the Rhodes, all that can
happen. There's a level of, like,
sophistication and jazz weirdness to the harmony of this tune.
100%.
So, like-
100 million percent.
I think what the... What, I don't know if they intended to do this, but it's like,
we're gonna have everything perfectly placed, because the harmony is so weird,
especially on this long 45-second intro, that, like, that's
gonna do all the heavy lifting of, like, whoo! Right?
Yeah.
And so everything else has to be so studio perfect, you
know? And, uh, I think it works. I think it works great and holds up.
Like, every time I hear this, I'm like, "Yes, let's drive west on Sunset."
So, you know, just a couple weeks ago, we talked about Carole King's Tapestry, and
how Carole King would do two different keys, like one key in the verse-
Yeah
... and then she'd go up a perfect fourth to the key in the
chorus. Steely Dan, which is, like, a, a, a common way to use two
keys-
Yeah
... in a way that is very logical and isn't jarring to our ear.
Steely Dan is using, on this song, two keys kind of
simultaneously and interchangeably.
Yeah.
Like B-flat major and B-flat minor.
It starts off in D-flat major, which is also B-flat minor.
Yeah.
But it just goes between these two modes.
It's modal interchange is the technical musical term.
But what you're hearing here, uh, why it sounds so, like, jazzy and jarring-
Yeah
... is 'cause they're just going between these two keys.
It's not random, but damn if it's not just like, "What?
What?" Like, it, it is jarring.
Yeah.
And it's... For such a smooth album, that sounds like a weird adjective for it
to say-
Right, right
... it's jarring, but harmonically, it's jarring.
Melodically, however, is where I think their genius comes in,
because they always do this. We talked about this in the Aja episode.
Like, the chorus to Black Cow is in sort of one key, as they're
going outside of the key all around, all around it.
Yeah.
So they do this thing where they put the melody in a very listenable
place-
Mm
... and they make it very easy to sing-
Right
... for anybody walking down the street. You can whistle this melody.
Yeah.
But all the harmony around it is weird as hell.
Yeah.
And it- that's what makes Steely Dan to me, is, like, the way they color their
melodies with-
Yeah
... context of the harmony of the chords that they put there, that's what makes
them so interesting, and nobody can match them at that. They are so good at that.
Maybe, like, Take 6, you know what I mean?
Mm.
Like, but they're on that level.
Right, right. Yeah, and I mean, you talk about-...
so the jazz harmony, like, that's what keeps this-
like, if you went with more stan- first of all, it starts in G flat at the
beginning of this, with these open fifths, right?
Right, right, right.
With this, which is a weird thing already, to start out a record.
So, and then as the harmony moves, it moves in very unconventional ways.
The thing about it is, you've got a very...
I mean, look, I'm gonna say it: you've got a yacht rock sensibility to this.
How dare you?
Well, I mean, it is!
How dare you, Peter?
No, this is... I mean, I'm not saying this is a yacht rock -
After what we know about how Donald hates that term.
But listen to... I mean, I'm just saying, it, it's got that kinda- that
connotation, that feel to it. Almost like a smooth jazz.
I mean, it's prototypical.
Yes.
Yeah, for sure.
So, but what pulls it away from that to be like, "I'm just gonna
sail away on my yacht, and there's, like, nothing-
♪ Sailing ♪
Well, okay, yeah, there, exactly.
Well, I love that track, but I'm just saying, there's nothing interrupting
your sail on that. This has some stuff that's like...
I mean, we're not even talking about the...
Once, once the lyrics come in-
100%, 100%.
The lyrics is the big interrupter.
I don't even know if we're gonna get to the lyrics on this episode, Peter, 'cause
the lyrics are so crazy-
Yeah
... throughout this whole album.
But could you imagine if you had all those crazy lyrics, wh- wh- which they have,
plus this crazy harmony, and you didn't have super smooth grooves and, and
precision within that? It would be a little bit of a hot mess, I would say.
I mean, honestly, when you... Yeah. Oh, it's Chris- ... it's amazing.
If you were... Yeah, if this was, like, done by a singer-songwriter, you'd be like,
"This guy is partying too much."
Right.
You know what I mean? With the lyrics out there.
Yeah.
But-
But, I mean, if you hear... So, and we're just gonna go back to the groove, too.
Because
Chuck Rainey and Bernard Purdie, like, this is as smoothed
out as you can make them. The groove is still there, but this is like
handcuffs on 'em, and like, you know...
Obviously, it's still
Oh, man, that's so good.
And Don Grolnick, same thing. Like, this is...
When I say handcuffs, there's constraints put, put on them-
Oh, yeah
... in, in terms of... And then even, like, how it's mixed and stuff like that.
I mean, it's so precise.
Yeah.
The-
Check this out. This is Purdie only.
Ah!
Classic.
Listen to that bass drum.
And look, his sound is changed on this record by the, uh, by
the, by the production, right? This is not exactly how he sounds when he's
just playing. I mean, yes, this is what he's playing.
Oh,
the placement of it and everything, like, the depth, the immediacy of some of the
instrument, and then the depth of, like, that crash cymbal sound or
whatever.
Um-
Amazing.
Yeah, and, and while we're on Purdie, because I think he ma- you know, he, he
just, he makes this track, obviously.
But, but, um, this is-
And this tune, particularly-
... Fagen or Becker talking
... real driving kinda.
Talking about Purdie on this. You've got the backbeat- And
that's Bernard Purdie. You've got double time.
And you have it almost
shuffle.
Bernard,
you know, is, you know...
Yeah.
Well, this famous story where, where he, you know, he would come to a session,
uh, at, you know, in the, in the early '60s, and he'd have two
signs with him, and then he'd set up these signs, where on one side of the drums-
This is Fagen
... it'd say, "You done it." And then the sign on the other side would say,
"You done hired the hit maker, Bernard 'Pretty' Purdie."
Amazing.
So it's that kind of confidence that you need, you know-
Yeah
... to get a good, uh-
Amazing
... on the session.
But it's like you hear the way Purdie's playing there, as, as he's demonstrate...
And look what they turned it into.
It's a little sterilized, right? But it's great.
I mean, so it, it starts out more subdued.
He, he lets it loose as the track goes on.
He does, but I'm just saying, like, the sound of it.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Like, the groove is there and everything, um, and he's fitting in with the
arrangement. I, I mean, I think it's amazing.
Yeah, that Purdie shuffle, where it's just like that...
Yeah.
A lot more of it's implied on this.
Yeah.
When he demos the whole thing, it's like that, right?
It's amazing.
Yeah.
♪ Boo, dit ♪
Okay, that's great. We love "Babylon Sisters." Uh, so should we
start... Let's, let's break down the lyrics, my friend.
Why don't you read them first?
Okay.
In the, in the first person.
I like how you're gonna make me read them.
Uh, that was a joke. You don't have to.
Thank you very much.
But you can.
I really don't... Yeah, the, I mean-
I mean, West... I'll do the first one for you.
Listen, all Steely Dan lyrics-
Yeah
... all Steely Dan lyrics-
Yeah
... especially, like,
post-Pretzel Logic, I feel like they get a little bit more and
more, um-
Dark?
Yeah, well-
Cynical?
A little bit. Uh, just like-
Drug infused?
Abstract, maybe.
Abstract.
They're not fully abstract, but they're, they're, they're telling a story in,
like... It's definitely
poetry. Like, there's definitely, like...
The word Babylon Sisters,
I don't know exactly what they mean by that.
Right.
What a great phrase, though.
Right.
Babylon Sisters shake it.
Oh, there's so there's so many-
Babylon Sisters shake it.
Hoops McCann.
Hoops McCann. There's so many-
It just sounds cool.
The Cuervo Gold.
Cuervo Gold.
You know what I mean? Like, there's so many, like, phrases-
Yeah
... turns of phrases on this. Jack with his radar-
Yeah
... stalking the dead moray eel.
At the eel with his Eur- Eurasian bride. You know what I'm saying?
Right.
But-
What is it? Oh-
That's on Glamour Profession.
Sichuan dumpling, dumpling sex.
By the way, that's a lyric from Glamour Profession, which is the third track, which
is a disco track.
It is a disco track.
Like-
Right
... I, I, I don't pretend to know enough about lyrics
to be able to decipher some of the Steely Dan stuff, but all I remember is being a
kid- ... and my parents would play, um, they had a...
For a little while, they were rocking Steely Dan Gold, which was like a CD of their
greatest hits.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
And Babylon Sisters was on there, and I remember when I heard Babylon Sisters as
a, as a seven or eight-year-old child being like, "What is this guy talking
about?
Right.
Who is this man singing? What is he talking about?" I have no reference
for what this means. Probably too young for a person to listen to-
Yeah
... to Babylon Sisters, but yeah.
Yeah, and I mean, look, some of these lyrics haven't aged great in terms of, like,
what they're, where they're probably leading.
But I think lyrically-
Yeah, I mean-
... as prose or whatever you wanna call it, I think the connection between the
melody and, um, the lyric, this is
something that Fagen and Becker were, like, really were masters of.
You can do that from almost any, any lyric from the '60s or '70s- ...
from, like, the Rolling Stones or something. You know what I mean?
Like-
Oh, yeah
... it's, it's not gonna age well.
Yeah, yeah. Um, but this was... I didn't realize...
It was funny, 'cause, like-... looking back, drink Kirschwasser
from a shell.
Yeah.
I thought they were saying, like, Courvoisier.
I knew it was some kind of drink, 'cause you're drinking it from a-
Yeah, yeah, yeah
... shell, but I didn't realize that Kirschwasser, that's a German, like,
brandy made from cherries. So obviously, they just grabbed that
word. I don't think they've ever drank that, or maybe they did.
But it's something that sounds-
It sounds like-
... sort of fancy, but it sounds a little seedy, too, right?
It sounds like something you would get at, like, a really dark bar in
LA with the red leather booths. You know what I mean?
Right, right.
And it's kinda, kinda tiki vibes, kind of, you know what I'm saying?
Right, right, right. Kirschwasser.
By the way, after this pod, you wanna go get some Kirschwasser?
Hell, no.
Hells, no. Um, okay, so cool. So this is a cool track.
Did we cover everything we need to on here?
I think so.
I mean-
I think so
... this is great.
Yeah.
So now we're gonna move along. It's interesting, so it's three- what is this?
Three tracks on the first side, and four, um, on the
second. I always feel like this is actually three...
This is a short record, especially because it's three-
38 minutes.
Yeah, it's three tracks, and really three tracks on the second side.
The last track is actually from another album.
We'll talk about that a little bit later, but right after this, we're moving right
on to, um, "Hey Nineteen." And this is kind of the only
hit real- or was the biggest hit off of here-
Yeah
... of the singles.
I love Hey Nineteen.
Um, and it wasn't huge, huge, but I guess it went to number 10 on Billboard, so
that's something. But this is the one probably is most
recognizable.
Another great start, right?
Little guitar pull there.
What's that... For our guitar player friends, like, how are they getting that pop-
I don't know
... at the very beginning?
You know that-
That pull sound?
Yeah.
What are they doing?
I don't know.
I don't, I don't know enough about guitar to be able to
figure that out.
There's a lot of space in this.
I was abandoned in the
cafeteria.
Oh, especially near the end.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Sweet pe-
Man, the mix on the keys, on the Rhodes on this is so good.
Probably the best ever.
Moved down to Scottsdale. Where the hell
am I?
So many great chord progressions on this album.
Hey Nineteen. No, we can't
dance together. We can't dance together.
No, we can't talk at all. Please take me along
when you slide on down.
And you know, Michael McDonald's on background vocals on some tracks.
Hey Nineteen.
I think I hear him in there.
Let's leave the restaurant.
He's not listed on this. I think there's some personnel issues with how this is
written. We're gonna talk about that, too.
She ordered-
And this says it's all Fagen on keys on this
... the Queen of Soul.
Hard times befallin' the soul
survivors.
She thinks I'm crazy, but I'm just
growing old. Hey
Nineteen, no, we got
nothing in common. We can't dance together.
This is the most on the nose-
We can't talk at all
... I think, lyrically, of all the songs on this record.
Please take me along when you slide on down.
This reminds me of being in
the High Ridge McDonald's drive-thru with my dad-
Yeah
... after a Cub Scout meeting.
Oh, n- oh, nice.
With some milkshakes, you know what I mean?
Yeah. It probably had a different angle for you, 'cause you were like, you were
looking at a-
19
... a 19-year-old, uh, cutie that was serving at the, at the diner, and you were
like, "Hey, Nineteen!" You're coming at it from the other dir- from younger,
right? No, maybe not. I don't know.
Again, I have no idea even now what we're talking about, but-
No, i- don't... But these, these lyrics have always been like, this is the one
where I'm like-
There's a little bit
... there's not a lot of mystery about it.
There's a lot of-
You know?
Not a lot of mystery, yeah.
Okay, this is our first-
You sure look good.
I mean, this sort of vamping here is... I don't know.
I won't hear any slander on the vamp of "Hey Nineteen" here.
This is fine, but it also comes back for two minutes later later.
Hey Nineteen-
And we love it
... skate a little lower.
Skate a little lower. Yeah, you know.
But you know what?
Okay, is this a good time for us to talk about the drummer on this track?
Can we, can we go over to a little bit of the, the tracks individually so we can-
Yeah.
'Cause I... Before we talk about the drummer on this track-
Okay
... which I do wanna get to, uh, you mentioned sort of the pristine sound of the
Rhodes-
Yeah
... and, and everything. I wonder if you could play a version of this without any
vocals. I wonder if you could get this cued up somehow-
Yeah, of course
... so that we could take the vocals out-
I can do
... completely? 'Cause-
"Hey Nineteen"?
"Hey Nineteen," 'cause what I wanna hear is, you know, it's not
just-
No vocals.
Just-
It's not just the engineering-
Yeah
... that makes this sound so good. That's certainly, like, a huge part of it, and-
Yeah
... genius engineers working on these albums, uh, doing a lot of incredible
work for a long time on these albums.
But it's like, I think what probably takes a lot of time for them, too, I don't
know, but I would imagine, is getting the arrangement to the point
where every instrument, if you notice on this track, especially without the
vocals, you'll hear has its own little place
in the song, right? So like, they-
Yeah
... like you mentioned, the space.
Yeah.
It's that leaving of the space for the-
Right
... bass and drums, and using the Rhodes fairly sparingly-
Yeah
... right? It's not like they're, they're just playing Rhodes the whole time
through, and Donald Fagen just, like, keeps playing the Rhodes.
Right.
It's such a thick sound, that Rhodes that they have. It's so lush.
It's like a big piece of chocolate cake.
Right.
You don't wanna have the whole meal-
Just-
... chocolate cake.
Right.
You're just gonna get full and feel sick, and it's, it's gonna lose the effect.
Yeah.
Right? What they have is just, like, these moments of chocolate cake that come at
you.
Oh, come on, now.
All right, I'm getting hungry.
Come on.
Can you play a little bit without the vocals?
Yeah. Oh, wait, we gotta get... Yeah,
sorry.
That's
the greatest Rhodes funk in the history of music.
Amazing.
... You can hear the different guitar parts were definitely pieced together and,
like, placed and taken out and, like-
I mean, but what's-
A lot of intentionality to that.
As precise as this is-
Yeah
... and everybody has their, everything in its, in its right place, spoiler
alert, um,
they're still playing.
Yeah.
They're letting the guitar play.
Right.
Like, the, the guitar is playing musical stuff-
Yeah
... that's going on.
No, it's a- and, and all the sounds actually, except the drums, which we're gonna
talk about more, um, on this track and a couple of them, but, like, all the
sounds are very, like, acoust- I mean, well, electric guitar, whatever,
very organic sounds.
Organic sounds.
The Rhodes is very much... It's not like-
Analog sound.
It's very analog sound. Obviously, it was recorded analog.
But even, like, the different kind, you know, like, the rhythm guitar that comes
in, it's just the manipulation...
Not manipulation, the arranging is about making choices about what's gonna be left
in, what's gonna be taken out, you
know?
Man, this sounds like the last half of the tune.
That's a... I could listen to this with- I mean, I love the tune, but I could
listen to the whole thing with that.
... Hey nineteen. No wake up-
Some good backgrounds on this
We can't dance together. No, we can't talk at
all. Please take me along when you slide
on down.
Let's get some more, some more of the...
We're gonna talk about Fagen's voice, too.
The Cuervo Gold.
Some great Bee Gees.
The fine Colombian.
Mm.
Make tonight a wonderful thing.
Did he say, "With the Cuervo Gold, the fine Colombian?"
Say it again.
The Cuervo Gold,
the fine Colombian. Make
tonight a wonderful thing.
Yeah, this is wonderful.
So this is why, like, Donald Fagen really proves this rule, right, of, like, what,
what it takes, uh, what it takes for, like, a pop
vocal success. You know, there are so many vocalists-
Mm
... who, like, do musical theater or opera or commercial singing that are
amazing-
Yeah
... that have incredible voices and can sing anything.
But what really works on these, in these contexts as an artist is a
voice that stands out. It's like you think about people like Bob Dylan or David
Bowie or, or-
Mm
... Paul McCartney and John Lennon.
Yeah.
They're not, like, the technically most brilliant singers you've ever heard.
Certainly, Donald Fagen is not.
Yeah.
But they have... Donald Fagen has such an interesting voice.
Yeah.
Immediately identifiable.
Yes.
Immediately you know who it is.
Distinctive.
Distinctive, and it's cool sounding.
Yeah.
Like, he makes phrases sound cool.
Yeah.
Listen to, "Say it again."
I mean, his lyrics and melodies are, like, custom, obviously-
Yeah
... fit for him.
Yeah.
Do you wanna hear him singing Lush Life? Probably not.
I would wanna hear it. I would wanna hear what he could do with it.
But you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, it's not, it's not like he's, um,
you know, s- someone who would be on American Idol or something.
No, but he's-
His voice
... singing the right stuff on here-
Yeah
... in a way. And a lot of those American Idol, you don't want them covering these
songs.
It, it does become-
It'd be weird
... I mean,
honestly-
This stuff is hard to sing.
It is hard to sing.
Yeah.
But you know what, too? It's like...
And we talked about this when we talked about Aja.
Like, as pristine as everything is-
Yeah
... what's so cool is his voice isn't.
I mean, the sound of it is pristine-
Yeah
... but his actual, like, vocal quality, he's a good singer, but he's not like
this, like-
No
... unbelievable Sam Cooke level voice-
No, no
... of can sing anything, you know?
And that adds to a, like, adds just enough grit for you, that you're just like,
"Oh, there's some real s**t happening here," you know?
I mean, like, Michael McDonald, who sings, sings some background on here.
He, he, he could... He- I've heard it.
Actually, he's sung, he's sung some of these songs, I believe.
Yeah.
I don't know about this. I know some from Aja.
I mean, we talked about it. That's, that's-
He can pull that off.
That's Hall of Fame distinguished voice.
Yeah, yeah.
That's, like, two, two notes, and you know who's singing it.
Right. Right, right. Um, cool. Well, do you wanna talk about the drummer here, or
do you wanna come back to that later?
No, let's talk now.
'Cause I can, I can give you some isolation on that, too.
Yeah, so the drums on this, um,
happened because they couldn't get it
to Donald Fagen's liking. They couldn't, even though they had some of the
greatest drummers who ever lived.
Steve Gadd, Bernard Purdie, um, some
other good drummers.
Jeff Porcaro.
Jeff Porcaro, Rick Marotta.
They couldn't get it-
And Wendel
... groovin' and consistent enough-
Yeah
... that Donald Fagen thought it was what he wanted.
So he asked the sound engineer
to create-
Roger Nichols
... Roger Nichols-
Yeah
... to create a machine- ... that could do it.
And Roger Nichols said, "I can do it if you give me $150,000."
Yeah.
He-
Well, he said it was gonna cost $150,000 to build it.
Yes, he said, "Yes, all I need is $150,000."
Yeah.
And he did it. He invented, essentially, I think, maybe the world's first
sample drum machine-
Mm
... where they sampled, 'cause the-
We're not historians.
The stipulation was is it... He didn't want it to sound...
There were already drum machines in-
Yeah
... 1979, but he didn't want it to sound like a drum machine, like an
electronic drum machine.
Right, like a live drum.
He wanted it to sound like a real drummer.
Yeah.
And so
Roger Nichols did it.
Yeah.
He invented this machine called Wendel, and Wendel plays on three songs
on this album, and this is the first one.
Yeah.
And the, and the re- this is the impetus of Wendel, this song.
Yeah. Now, and we're gonna talk about did they achieve
the human feeling or grooving drummer on
this?
This is Hey Nineteen. Just the
drums, just
Wendel.
Throw a little bass in.
I think I like the Purdie shuffle better. I'm just...
I'm gonna put that out there. But once you start adding
stuff in-
I don't know, man.
And this is the thing, it doesn't sit in isolation,
right?
Like, all these instruments are part of the groove, right?
Move down the street.
Now it sounds-
Where the hell am I?
Back to groovin', right?
Hey, nineteen.
Whoo!... now there's a
little bit of, uh, controversy about that, too.
So, a- and I mean, I'm, um,
this, o- on the, on the original LP here that we have, the liner
notes: drums, Rick Marotta. So we- I
saw a few places where they would say that the...
some of the fills were still human fills-
I think that's true
... 'cause they couldn't figure out how to do that well.
Yeah, I think that's true. It- all the fills are done by one of these great
drummers. You don't believe it?
I, I mean, I just don't know, because it's...
I mean, this is making it like he's playing everything.
Clearly, it's not, and I know that the engineers have confirmed this track.
Actually, the tracking engineers, not Roger Nichols, who was the mixing engineer
and the creator of Wendel, um, but the tracking engineer, who I-
apologies, I'm, I'm missing his name now, who actually did a lot of the, the heavy
lifting on this. Elliot Scheiner.
Um, a huge part artistically of this record and, and to the sound that it
has. He confirmed specifically which tracks, and this one, he said
in an interview, is entirely Wendel, so.
So-
And he was the one literally, you know, recording what was there, what was used.
So he was saying even the fills?
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.
So by the way, this isn't the first-
Well, he was there, my friend.
I know. I wasn't there.
I mean, I know. I don't know either.
The... This isn't the first time we've had a sample
loop used on a huge hit song.
Uh-huh.
Right. Right.
We didn't even address this when we did the-
I know
... Voodoo episode.
But I didn't... We didn't know.
We're gonna get caught up in this again.
This is a drum... This is not Wendel, though. This is...
It's a Wendel-like item.
This is, we've, we've confirmed-
This is a Mir- Quest, this is Questlove.
Sounds.
We think.
But-
But put in a loop-
Yeah
... by Russell Gunn.
And programmed by D'Angelo or Russell Elevado.
Programmed by D'Angelo, yeah.
So they used Questlove's sounds-
Yeah
... and put it in a loop.
Allegedly.
Not too far from Wendel-
Right
... which is kind of interesting.
But they just had much more technological abilities to, to make it,
uh, feel and sound organic, right?
There's a precision there that they wanted, and there's a placement for how they
tracked it, but-
Okay, I don't mind Wendel on Hey Nineteen, actually.
I think that's-
Yeah, when you... No, no, no, and I, I just, but c- because I just meant on its
own. It's like, oh, I don't... Like, whereas you, you listen to just Purdie, you're
like, "I'm cool."
Now, yeah.
When you hear it by itself.
Is it Steve-
But, but that's not realistic.
Is it Steve Gadd on the track Aja?
No.
No. Is it Purdie on- ... Babylon Sisters? No.
No, but maybe that's not what that track needs.
That's not what he wanted.
Yeah.
And you know, if, if we know anything about this album, they got what they wanted.
Right. So-
Or they paid someone $150,000 -
That's right
... to find it. You know what I mean?
So we might come back to this for quibble bits, but I'm ready to move on to track
three if you are, unless you got anything else here.
Yeah, Glamour Profession. By the way, if you like Glamour Profession, stick around
to the end of the episode, 'cause we do a full version with our quartet-
Ooh
... of our arrangement of Glamour Profession.
No Wendel. Wendel was not invited to that. We have Taylor Purdie.
Can you imagine Wendel doing the one that we just did?
No.
That'd be awesome.
Wendel would be e****g it up. Okay, so Glamour Profession, this is a cool track.
Um, this is, s- well, it says Steve Gadd, but we know there's a lot of
Wendel on here. I think we'll be able to...
This one, I think, is combined-
Yeah
... with the fills and stuff, but let's check it out.
You're kind of in a glamour profession.
You're a, a jazz piano influencer and a podcaster.
So, so are you.
Okay.
Are we in a bit of a-
Glamour profession.
Is that how it goes?
Yeah.
Oh.
Yeah.
Oh, the great Rhodes.
Anthony Jackson on bass, killing it.
RIP, we lost him recently. One of the greatest bass players
ever.
Disco?
Six o'clock-
That's Gadd.
That ain't Wendel.
... outside the
stadium.
Special delivery
for Hoops McCann.
I wanna know Hoops.
Plays for the Lakers, for sure.
Brooded charisma.
Maybe the Clippers. Brood and charisma?
Out from the shadow where he
stood, looking good. He's
a crowd-pleasing man.
Off-headed weird!
Oh, dude.
One on one, he school you-
It's like a Mingus album.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like Mingus in the, in 1980.
Brushing the backboard, he's Jungle
Jim
again. When it's all over-
Shout out to Rob Mounsey on piano, plays a nice solo on here-
He makes a call-
... and is doing all this comping in between Fagan's on keys
... worth thousands in admission.
And then he arranged a bunch of it.
Valerie Simpson, Leslie Miller, Frank Lloyd, Zack Sanders, background.
Woo!
Local boys will spend a quarter
just to shine a silver bone.
Living hard will take its toll.
2-4 bar? That's weird.
Illegal fun.
Fun!
I always thought that was illegal funds.
Under the sun-
Like they're wiring illegal money. I think it's illegal fun.
Yeah.
All aboard.
It's about the Lakers.
The Carab Cannibal.
Is that the '78 Lakers?
The Carab Cannibal.
Off to Barbados-
Oh, he's just making shit up now
... just for the ride.
Jack with his pack-
Tom Scott, Mike Brecker.
It's a lot, man.
Yeah.
The, the harmony is a lot.
Yeah.
At the wheel,
it is your Asian bride.
Your Asian bride. Okay, another thing, I thought that was "your
Asian bride."
Were these guys just... Were these guys-
I thought it was your Asian bride.
We drive far out-
It's Eurasian bride.
Eurasian, like Euro-Asian, European.
Yeah.
Yeah. Neither one is good.
They're both bad.
These guys are just jazz nerds, aren't they?
Yeah.
Like, this is some nerdy-ass shit.
Well, it's funny you say that. Let's, let's, let's, uh, listen to how Fagan, uh-...
ah, talks about when he met Walter Becker and h- how he sees themselves.
That harmony could be played in, like, any dank jazz club in Brooklyn-
Right
... right now. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, all those-
Oh, they're playing it right now. So this is Donald Fagen-
This is like a, a sad boy straight vibe, you know?
Like, straight, straight groove
Sad boy, lots of harmony.
Shoegaze.
Um, this is Fagen talking with the great Paul Shaffer. The great, see?
We're talking jazz- ... about 10 or 15 years ago.
The legendary.
The great- ... means it's jazz.
Ah, this is Donald Fagen and Paul Shaffer.
Ladies and gentlemen, it's Donald Fagen. Hi, how are you?
Donald-
Okay, first we gotta talk about something. That... Why does Paul Shaffer...
I can't tell if he's, like, a grandma from the Borscht Belt in the '50s-
That's his vibe, man
... or if it's like a radio announcer from the- l- listen to Paul Shaffer.
Look at him come-
The guy's wearing sunglasses inside 24/7.
No. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Donald Fagen. Why, how are you?
His little round sunglasses.
My goodness, thank you for being here. Okay.
What is your and what was Walter's-
Okay.
This is so funny. These are two funny guys.
It's like, yeah.
All right.
Well, this whole interview is great. Go check this out.
I got a- another question.
Yeah.
Why are piano players, and I include us in this group, why are we so
weird?
We are so-
As a group, we are not socially-
Because we're put in these positions of power that we shouldn't have, as, like,
arrangers and producers, and, like, having podcasts and-
We spend all our lives in the practice room trying to figure this out. It's crazy.
Right, and everyone else is, like, way cooler and normal than us, but we know all
the harmony and all this stuff, so we- it all falls on us.
Damn.
Shout out to my guitar friends. Okay, back to Paul.
Ladies and gentlemen, it's Donald Fagen. Hi, how are you? Donald. Hi.
My goodness, thank you for being here. Okay.
What is your and what was Walter's musical background?
Did you- Walter and I had very similar, uh, backgrounds.
We were both, um, dinky kid- ... jazz
fans.
Dinky. Dinky!
Okay. And, uh-
Okay.
And what, uh, what, uh, did you meet him?
I met him in school, college. Okay, at- Bard, Bard College. Yes, right.
Famously so, yes. Where, uh, Chevy Chase also went.
Well, I can't believe-
It's like Larry King
... you know, that he played drums in a- He did ... in a band with you guys.
Chevy Chase?
Yeah. He played a pickup thing with students. As hip as you are- Mm-hmm ...
of course, he, he loved his jazz, too. He did, and he was a good drummer.
And he could... He was a good drummer.
Talk about Chevy Chase.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Yeah, it's hilarious, like, Paul, Paul Shaffer.
Man, that's awesome. I love Paul Shaffer.
But-
Paul Shaffer can actually play, you know?
Oh, he's great.
He's incredible.
He's great.
Yeah.
Super nice guy. I got to meet him a couple times. Really da- super knowledgeable.
I mean, obviously, he's so good at-
He's a monster, yeah.
He needs a podcast. He probably has a podcast.
Um, that's probably why we're number nine.
He's got... He has a good vibe, though.
It's like he's like a-
He had that SiriusXM show. That was really good.
Oh, okay.
That was-
That, is that what that was from, probably?
Uh, I think so.
Yeah.
Probably.
Yeah, and they-
And they're playing on here, man. He's... Yeah.
He's got Goldblum vibes.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
But the thing is, um, Fagen grew up in New- well, New York area, in New
Jersey, mo- pr- primarily, but he used to come into the city, and you mentioned
Charlie Mingus. That was somebody he was really into in, like, late '50s.
I mean, you could hear it so clearly.
Yes.
There's so much, like, of the, the, of that style of jazz, where, like, this
harmony's moving and these, those augmented chords, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Crazy.
Yeah. And willing to have not only weird chords.
I mean, all jazz players, they kind of figure out some chords to do that.
But, like, he maybe picked up that, that sensibility from Mingus, where it's like
set up a pattern of weirdness and celebrate that within the music, not just
some random, "Oh, this is slick." It's like, "No, we're gonna have this section-
Yeah
... where it's gonna be like, we're gonna end on an augmented chord in Cuervo Gold
and like... " And, of course, he tied in with the lyrics and all that.
But the thing was, too, he used to hang out at the Village Vanguard as a young'un,
as a teenager, um, listen to stuff, and that's great.
Like, you think about the lineage of, like, musicians and pop musicians, of course,
jazz musicians, actors, like, the Vanguard is such, like, a cultural
connecting, connection point for generations.
Yeah, yeah.
You know? So it's so cool to see that.
Um, but that's-
That, that-
Yeah
... there was another Wendel track, right?
So that was that sort of drum machine that they were using.
Yeah.
But definitely some Steve Gadd on there.
Um, I think you can hear it within there, uh, with the fills is app- apparently
what they said, and-
Very cool.
Yeah. Should we move on to... Ooh, a little controversy with the next track.
I love this track, though.
Yeah.
Let's-
Go check it out.
Title track.
Title track. Title track. Sure about
that?
I can't put my finger on it, but it, it, it reminds me of something.
SNL? The theme song at the end? Love it.
Is it Treasure Island? No, it's not Treasure
Island.
Man, that sounds so good.
It's Tom Scott on tenor.
Bad cat.
Arrangements as well, horn arrangements.
Yeah, Tom Scott is a bad dude.
Okay, so there's the intro.
'Cause when I say, "Boy, we can-"
Something different, right?
... You are golden, then you do
this.
You say, "This guy is so cool."
So cool.
Snapping his fingers like a
fool.
One more expensive kiss-off. Who do
you think I am? Lord, I
know you're a special friend, but you
don't seem to understand. We got
heavy rollers. I think you should know.
Try again
tomorrow.
That's s- that's so much, man.
Man.
There's so much going on. It's crazy.
Second verse.
Get rid of him. I don't care what you do.
How did they do this?
I know.
Would you care to explain?
Ron Moon on piano.
Ah. Who is the guy showing you-
He jammed on this track?
... He's here.
Yeah, yeah.
Why is he snapping in your spangled
leather poncho and your elevator
shoes?
Jeff Porcaro.
Oh, minor 11.
Rudacious cowboys
such as your friend-
... Sha-boom! Ah.
Oh!
Man.
All right, do your thing on this.
Yeah.
No, no, I just got something I wanna talk about before-
I was gonna say, I thought that was Anthony Jackson. This says Walter Becker.
I, I think that there's... Like, they track this stuff so much, who knows what's on
it, who's on it? But definitely Jeff Porcaro, so...
Oh, there is a way-
Wait, are you saying that they're not precise? Is that what you're saying?
Man, this is a kill- I forgot how good this track is, man.
It's killing.
This might be the best arranged track-
I mean-
... like, with the production and the...
I mean-
It's incredible.
This is strong, man. Shout out to everybody on it.
A lot of-
That chorus-
Yeah
... is so big.
It's almost like-
So huge
... they went to some source material and just-
Hmm.
Like, where did it come from? We're gonna talk about that in a minute, but this
was... Or should we just jump right into that?
Jump, jump into that, and then-
Okay
... I wanna talk about the chorus a little bit more.
So let's listen to the beginning again, because if this sounds familiar to
you...
Pregnant pause. Here we go.
Boom.
Ah,
that snare drum roll.
What is this, key of F, right?
Ah, it's got that little... So it's a little bit of a, like, a slight street
beat, almost like military shum, you know, like with that press roll thing
there. So that's Gaucho.
This...
This is a live version? Wait, let me start it from the beginning.
Sorry.
All right, that's source material.
This is Gaucho.
It's very, very close.
Very close. Okay, so what I was playing you here, this
is Keith Jarrett, "Long as You Know You're Living Yours" from Belonging.
Killer record.
Belonging, amazing. By the way, Branford Marsalis Quartet-
1974
... just put out their own version-
Yes
... a Belonging, which is kind of amazing.
Yeah, I thought that was insane when Branford was gonna do it.
That was-
And then-
He did it, and I was like-
He did it.
It was awesome.
Yeah. Yeah, okay, so there's a little bit of controversy here
because those sound alike. Although you made a good point when we first
talked about it. You're like, "Oh, what, does Keith Jarrett own the play- the, the
four to one?
Yeah.
The one to four?"
The play on cadence?
They've been doing that in churches for, for hundreds of years all over the world.
It is very close, though.
Yeah, it is very close.
Just with the tenor and all this, like, just the way...
And the drums, the, everything.
But the melody's not exactly the same.
Not exactly the same.
And, and the chords are not... They've been used so much.
The tempo and the key, but you can't copyright a tempo and a key.
I wonder if this would happen today, what hap- what you're about to talk about.
I think it, I think it would. It would just be even faster-
Maybe
... because it'd be, like, social media.
So what happened was, um, there was an interview in
1981, so the record had already been out for over a year, or no, maybe not,
maybe six months. Anyway, it was the next year.
So Musician Magazine, right? Here it is. I'm gonna read it to you. Musician.
Shout out to Musician Magazine.
Those of you that don't-
You're still around.
Are they still around?
I don't know.
Yeah, this used to be a big deal. I remember when, like...
You know, I don't quite remember this early, but, but not that far after, like-
Magazines, are you still around?
Yeah.
Hey, magazines.
Mu- Musician was big. Musician says, "Are you familiar with the
Keith Jarrett recording..." This is talking to Donald Fagen and Walter Becker.
"Are you familiar with the Keith Jarrett record, Belonging, particularly a tune
called Long as You Know You're Living Yours?" Becker:
"Yes." Musician: "Have you ever listened to that up against
Gaucho?" Becker: "No." Musician:
"I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the tempo and the
bassline and the saxophone melody, it's pretty interesting."
Becker: "Parenthetically, it is.
Yeah." Uneasy laughter. Musician...
At this point, the reporter traditionally asks the cornered politician or athlete
to go off the record. Fagen jumps in, "Off the
record, we were heavily influenced by that particular piece of
music." Becker says, "I love it." Um,
then it says, "Becker and Fagen later approved their off-the-record responses for
publication." That cost him a little bit of bread, I can tell you that right now.
Why is that?
Well, Musician then said, "We are talking about borrowing." And
Fagen... Is Fagen cocky? He, is he good and he knows it?
I don't know.
Famously, yeah.
Fagen said, "Hell, we steal. We're the robber barons of rock and
roll."
Amazing.
So when this article came out, it made its way to Keith
Jarrett. He engaged-
I'm sure he was cool about it.
He engaged Debussy & Debussy- ... in legal
proceedings. Turns out they had to refer him to a New York lawyer, 'cause they're
only licensed in the state of Illinois.
And sometimes that license isn't exactly valid, if you know what I'm saying.
It's based on the Napoleonic Code- ... my friend.
Well, I'll say, I'll say, I'll say...
So anyway, that got back to them, so I think they talked their way, 'cause, I mean,
these interviews were big. Now it's like if you say something on social media-
Yeah, yeah, yeah
... it's lost, right?
Yeah.
But it's in print, and so they ended up settling, and he's...
Well, listen, as a songwriter, not on this.
Keith Jarrett is.
Keith Jarrett is co- they... I think it was 33, 33, 33 between the three of them.
A third of them.
Yeah.
I wouldn't doubt if it's just, like...
'Cause when did Belonging came out? A few years before, right?
'74.
Yeah.
I mean, that's enough time that you could literally, like, know it, love it, and
kinda forget it.
Right.
And then it comes out. Listen, buddy, I've told you this before.
I told you about the, the song that I wrote that is with, with The 442s, my band.
We play it all the time.
Right.
It's one of people's favorite songs we do. It's basically We Are the World.
Yeah.
I just... Like, I was at a soundcheck- ...
after we'd recorded it and been playing it for two years.
Yeah, I've played it. Yeah.
Our buddy Sean looked over at me in the soundcheck as we were rehearsing that song
and goes, "You know this is just We Are the World, right?" And I go, "Son of a
gun, it is just We Are the World!"
Well, We Are the World has, like, 17 songwriters on it, so they'd be happy to add
one more if you want.
Don't come at me, Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie.
But no, you know what I'm saying? It's like, uh-
Yeah
... it happens. It happens.
I-
It happens with comedians, where you hear a joke, and you absorb it, and then you
forget that you know it, and then-
Yeah
... it comes out, and you... I mean, listen, it happens.
And I don't even think this... I don't- we, we don't know the exact law.
I mean, like, we just know little things, and, like, these can work their way
through a court case, and who knows who would've won?
But I think this whole thing of, like, "We were heavily influenced by that
particular piece of music," them- what they said in this interview couldn't have
helped the cause at all.
Definitely didn't help the cause.
Yeah.
Like, if they... You think if they wouldn't have said anything to this interview,
just... Or not made a public record, then-
Hell, we steal. We're the robber barons of rock and roll.
That's pushing it, isn't it?
But Fagen's probably like, "Ah, it was worth it to be able to say that."
Yeah.
That's cool. It's all good.
Yeah.
Um-
I wonder what Keith thought. I wonder if there's any Keith interviews- ...
about it. You know what I mean?
I know. Probably not.
Yeah.
Um, cool.
That's it. Okay, so can I-
Yes
... take my, my Gaucho-
Oh, get the turntable back
... train a little bit?
Do it.
So I wanna address the chorus here of
Gaucho.
Mm.
Because-
... I'm gonna go down a little bit.
Who is the gaucho amigo?
Why is he standing in your spangled
leather poncho?
Do these lyrics make sense to you, by the way?
And your
elevator shoes. Audacious cowboys-
Audacious cowboys! One of the great lines
... Such as your friend will never be welcome
here. High in the Custer
dome-
Woo, so good, man. Too cool. Okay, so I'm gonna back it
up again.
All up in the-
And we're gonna take some things out here.
The
guitar.
Ah, isn't that great?
The... The guitar.
Oh,
yeah.
Oh.
Da, da, da, da, da.
Yeah, I never noticed that in there.
It's so good.
Yeah.
But it's such a huge chorus.
Yeah. It gets so
wide.
I mean, the combination of the Rhodes and the piano, splitting
registers.
He's standing in your spangled leather poncho.
That's it! It's just the chorus and that guitar doing all that great rhythmic work
under it-
So good
... and just how they, they pan everything out huge, wide, all the
little sparkle stuff that happens, man.
Yeah.
Incredible track. Incredible track.
For sure, for sure. Great stuff. Shout-out Tom Scott, great horn
arrangements on, on a number of things, and great playing on here.
And honestly, dude, honestly,
what makes, I think, Gaucho the album so good is
everything's been pretty... I mean, "Glamour Profession" I think is a
little, sounds a little dated with the disco beat and
everything.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's the only diff I can, uh, I can think of so far.
Disco Wendel?
Disco Wendel. Disco Wendel. Everything else, "Babylon Sisters," "Hey
Nineteen," "Gaucho," and then next up, the next track-
Yeah
... is unbelievable.
Yeah. So now we're on... Well, "Gaucho" is the first song on the second side-
Right
... so now we're at the middle song. Um, if you think about this as six songs.
If it's seven, it's the second song.
Um, only going-
Do you not think about it as seven?
I mean, I... Structurally, I don't know, just 'cause three, three, and because, to
be honest, I don't wanna give anything away, but, like, "Third World," like, that's
the, that's the-
It was on the original release, though, wasn't it?
Yeah, yeah, it was on the original.
I think that's just one- this is one of those records that, like-
So it's seven songs
... once I get to "My Rival," I'm done.
Oh, okay. For you, it's only six.
Yeah.
You, you like to b- uh, bury your head in the sand.
No, no, no, I mean, and "Third World Man" is fine for... But it, it...
I didn't even know this till recently, that it was recorded so much earlier.
Mm.
Or was it? I, I still don't really know.
Nobody knows.
Yeah. But, I mean, just to me, "My Rival"-
Tell me.
Well, o- once we get there, I'll, I'll tell you. I mean, I'm just kind of done.
I feel like I had enough, even though the record's short-
All right
... but it's, yeah. I mean, to tell you the truth, I think if this was six tracks,
I would almost call this a, a near-perfect record.
I would agree.
Yeah.
I would, I would agree. I think it's-
That would be shockingly short, and people would be like, "Oh, my God," you know?
Plus, you know, when this came out, this was a big...
This was one of those records that, um... What was this? M- not MCA.
What the hell was this? Oh, Geffen, UM, Universal.
I, I don't know.
So what I like to think about, too, is if this is, if this is
six tracks
recorded over two years-
Yeah
... that's four months per track.
Right.
All right, go ahead.
Right. No, but this was a, this was a thing, like, for the record
and maybe the cassette, too, I think they were priced the same.
But I remember, like, around this time, they were, like, the, the big record
companies, Warner Brothers, MCA, whatever, w- I can't remember what this was, but-
This is MCA.
Oh, MCA. Like, they were trying this, like, upper demographic
pricing. Everything was $8.99.
Yeah.
But then, like, certain artists that were established and were like, "We're Steely
Dan, The Dan," they would do $9.99, which today
sounds silly, like, 'cause pricing is all over the place.
But I remember this, though.
Yeah, but it was a big deal-
Even in the-
... 'cause it was $8.99 everywhere.
Yeah.
And so, like, they were putting a marker that the companies wanted another dollar.
Even in the CD era, like at, at, at Barnes & Noble back in the day, it would be
like, there would be $9.99 all the way up to $18.99.
Right.
Depending-
But they were... Like, the record companies were trying to make editorial decisions
based upon pricing. They're like, "This is, this is a premium Bordeaux.
This is not a Bordeaux De Country," you know?
Like-
Interesting
... um, and so, and, and Steely Dan famously didn't like that.
Like, they fought against it. That was part of their... They were in a big battle.
They were calling them the Custer Dome, supposedly, it was Warner Brothers-
Ooh
... that's where that lyric is from.
Right.
But, I mean, they didn't like that, 'cause they were like...
They, they were v- they've always been very much
of the people, right? Um, and they thought, you know,
smartly, that the consu- that their fans were gonna think they
were pricing it, which is silly, 'cause you're like, "Oh, everybody knows." No,
most people say, like, "Oh, I can't believe Steely Dan's trying to charge $9.99.
Who do they think they are?" You know, so they were against it.
Very cool.
Yeah.
No, good for them.
Yeah.
I mean, not good for- ... but you know what I mean. Go ahead.
Big Pharma, big, big, big ag, big record companies.
This album is from Big Harma.
Big Harma.
This is Big Harmony.
Big Harmony. Awesome. All right, so we, what are we going on to now?
Time Out of My Mind.
Time Out of My Mind, man.
Yeah, let's do it.
Come on, let's get to it.
Uh, come on! Another great
start.
Oh, my God.
They're the masters of the great and weird starts.
I just wanna old man dance.
Yeah.
Back to a Wendel-less track.
Dancing in one of those-
Yeah, you're dancing... There's no windows
... fold-out lawn chairs, you know?
Oh, little rock on the-
I got a cigar. I got a little hat, just sitting on a
sidewalk.
This is your chance to
believe. What
I've got to say-
Kind of just described the old dudes from Do the Right Thing, didn't I?
Put a dollar in the kitty.
Don't be rude or pretty.
Uh.
... chasing the dragon!
So good.
Oh-
What, chasing the dragon?
Change the cherry wine.
It could be good for a minute. It's good until it's not good, you know what I'm
saying?
Oh, my night of
night.
Got a little Michael McDonald BGs on this, Valerie Simpson, Patti
Austin.
We can miss the-
Ah, woo!
Oh.
And the horns on this track.
The horns are killing it.
And the night is almost-
So this is Rob Mounsey, the guy, the pianist who's on a lot of this.
Do the horn arrangements on this.
Yeah, he's crushing this, too.
Yeah. Sanborn, Ronnie Cuber on bari.
Couldn't be happy.
Michael Brecker, Randy Brecker, of course.
Oh.
Life.
Ah, yeah.
Factious-
Amazing, man.
Plays-
Another good headphone listen.
Yeah, yeah.
High.
High five, fo' fum. I'll meet you there.
High five.
Fo' fum.
Chasing the dragon. The water may change the
cherry wine, and the silver will turn to
oh, tyna
night.
Tyna night.
Mark Knopfler.
That's
some Michael McDonald influence there.
Sounds like Weather Report.
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Knopfler on, on lead guitar.
Like, there's definitely some Birdland vibes happening.
Yeah.
And this is like Stage Band when I was in middle school.
Yeah.
Like, we wish we could've played this good.
Yeah.
You know?
No Stage Band sounded like this.
We thought we did.
Those middle school band directors pretended like we did.
Yeah. Pat Williams.
Happy life.
The McDonald's-
McDonald-
... McDonald's!
He, like, takes over.
Can you back that up real quick?
Oh, it's so good.
That was the most-
I forgot
... Michael McDonald moment.
Life.
Did McDonald just sing more than Fagen did on the entire album?
More soulful even.
I could use, like, four more moments of that.
It was nice. How did they leave that in?
Amazing. I don't know.
Back when I chased the dragon-
Fagen's like, "Who did that?"
Water-
Is that Patti Austin?
Change the cherry wine, and the silver-
Okay, so what's great about this, this is a killer track.
By the way, shout out to Michael McDonald, 'cause from like
'75 to '84, he's on everybody's album.
I know.
He's making his own albums, making the best music of his life, and he's playing on
every... singing on everybody's stuff.
I know. Apparently, he was on the cruise the week before I was, in jazz, killing it
with, um,
David Foster.
Man.
Man, so what's fun about this, um, Mark Knopfler doing the, the great
guitar stuff here and there, um, he describes this as, like,
easygoing, and like, "We're in Southern California.
Got the, got the lawn chair out, a little rust on there. That's okay.
You might get a little botulism, but it's all good." Um, "But you're sitting out
there. This is, this is, like, easy yachting. We're..." Right?
But-
Botulism? They pay for that now, you know.
They pay for that?
It's Botox.
Okay.
Um, he describes the session not as easygoing. He says- ...
"This was like getting into a swimming pool with lead weights tied to my boots."
Oh, my God.
That's how he describes the session.
Okay.
That's how exacting they were.
Well, let's talk about this. So we-
We're, we're talking about it
... we've already hinted around to this with the Wendel, and you know, the Wendel
was there because Steve Gadd couldn't play it good enough.
I know, right.
You know what I'm saying?
Right.
In Donald Fagen's mind. Like, this album is a monument to
perfectionism, as I said in the intro, because-
But was it that he couldn't play it good enough, or was it that he couldn't play
exactly what Fagen and Becker-
That's, that's right
... to a certain degree-
That's right
... had in, in mind?
That's, that's the one.
So maybe they couldn't describe it or... I don't know.
But it, but they were so uncompromising-
Yeah
... in this process, throughout the recording process, apparently throughout the
mixing process. The mixing process, like, you know, I've...
I heard rumors of, like, 40 takes trying to get the exact right fade-out
on Babylon Sisters.
There was more. It was, like, 50-something.
On the fade-out?
Yeah.
You know, just to get the right one-
Like, when you get started-
... that they're hearing
... and the length of it, yeah.
I mean, listen, I love this level of detail.
Yeah.
But
does it rob it of some kind of organic, organic chemistry?
Would we have gotten a 15 more Michael McDonald
soulful runs at the end of phrases-
Right
... if they would've just let some shit go a little more? I don't know, man.
Well, some stuff slipped through by either by luck or good fortune.
This is Gary Katz, the producer, talking about Gaucho and,
and how he ended up saving it.
Donald and Walter would write songs, we'd record 'em.
Every once in a while, if he couldn't get a track he
liked, he discarded the song.
Wow.
His feeling was, "We have the greatest musicians in the world.
If they can't play it the way I like it, something's wrong with the
song."
Amazing.
It was absurd. But we lost songs over the years
because of it.
Yes.
No matter how hard I would fight for a certain song or so, he
would say, "We're done. Next song."
When we got to Gaucho, they couldn't get a
track. It was Jeffrey and Rainey, and
I can't remember-
Jeff Porcaro.
Jeff Porcaro-
Chuck Rainey
... and Chuck Rainey.
Can't get it.
And so we get, got to, "Okay, we're done with this track." I said, "Oh,
no. No, no. I'm not losing this track.
I don't care
go home if you want. I'm not losing this track."
Amazing.
So they did, they left.
Wow.
And it was me and Roger and Elliot-
The, the two engineers
... and Jeffrey. No other band member.
Drummer. Wow.
Jeffrey just played to a click track
85 times.
Oh, my God!
85 times.
Donald!
And I had a chart, and I would mark the chart-
Oh, Donald wasn't there
... "I love these two bars. These four bars are good.
These two bars are good." And Roger, I
think there were 35-
... edits-
Oh, my God.
- in the tape to make the one track.
This, that one must've been a hell of a Pro Tools session.
About 6:00 in the morning-
Joking, they were using tape!
I called Fagen. I said, "Okay-
Okay.
"... they got a track." You know, he sort of laughed at me.
He got Walter, they came over, and he said, "Okay, we'll use
it."
"Okay, you got it."
No, I said Donald, because, like, you know, they're, they're in...
This is in response to just him not being satisfied-
Right
... with anything they're getting.
Right.
And they, they have to, like, send him home and do it 85 times to pull
35 different takes together for one track of the Gaucho
drum track.
It's a damn good track. It's a damn good track. I'm not saying it's not.
I'm not saying it didn't work, but it-
No, I know
... damn!
But, but so did it... Well, obviously, it worked. Is this...
Well, what's interesting about this, you, if you kind of step back and look at,
like, where Steely Dan was on this record, certainly Aja before this,
um, Pretzel Logic. I mean, m- m- maybe just who they were-
Yeah
... as a band or a production duo is what maybe more of what they were at this
point. Creative juices flowing through, like, "How do we piece this stuff
together?" Like, they took so much from jazz
famously. Like, they said... What, what, how did they describe themselves?
Dinky kid jazz fans.
Yeah.
Um, harmonically-
Yeah, for sure.
But that's kind of it.
No, melodically, too.
Melodically, yeah, to a certain degree, but, um, but not from,
like, the common vernacular that would've been around at that time, bebop or
post-bop or whatever. More
maybe from Great American Songbook a little bit, but, I mean, certainly har-
harmonic- That's like when people are like, "Oh, my God, that's jazz," or, "That's
like, sounds like Weather Report," it's, it's like the harmony.
It's, it's like what jumps out at you.
But the attitude towards playing music, like in jazz, we're
typically... You know, if you're in there with, you know-
Well done, maybe
... Steve Gadd. Well, not only that, it's like, "Oh, I'm a Steve Gadd." So I've got
Elvin Jones, the equivalent of Steve Gadd for a jazz drummer.
Like, you're not gonna be like, "Play it 85 times, and I'm gonna piece together
your best," you... It's like, "You know, I've ima- imagined
it... I imagine what this could be, but you're bringing in what it can
even be beyond what I could possibly imagine." That's what John Coltrane would've
been like. "Do your thing-
Yeah
... and we're gonna capture the magic." And so, like, this is almost
180 degrees in the other direction.
It's like, "Yes, you're great, but we gotta do 85 times for you
because you're not great every measure."
But you're-
You're 99.9. We're gonna find those 100% and put it together to what is
gonna become a great track.
You know what, striking me about, about what you're saying here, Peter, is you're
absolutely right, but, you know, there's also, like...
It's been heading towards the perfectionism in making records, you
know, since the late '60s, really.
Yeah.
Since, like, The Beatles are making, you know, the White Album and, and Let It Be,
and Abbey Road. It's like we are...
You know, the '70s was this art of Stevie and-
Yeah
... Steely Dan and Michael Jackson, like, making these records more,
and, and Earth, Wind & Fire.
Yeah, but Steely Dan was... They were at another level with just-
At a whole other
... piecing it together-
For sure
... and perfection.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe Quincy and Michael for...
I mean, Michael Jackson definitely had that.
I mean, Stevie, like, was, like, went through a lot of stuff and tried a lot of
things, but then it would be like-
The raw take of him playing drums.
Yeah.
Like, Superstition, I think, is like one time thing, one time through with him,
like, once he got it, it was like-
Not even a, a track that he's playing.
Yeah, he's not... He's just laying that down-
Yeah, yeah
... and then goes. So, like, and, and it would move pretty quick.
Yeah.
But, uh-
They are taking it to a different level.
It's just a different way of doing it.
This is what I'm saying.
I'm not saying right or wrong.
I don't know of any other, even of Aja, the...
I don't know any other recording that is so, like, people talk
about it as legendary as this, of, like, just, you know, the, the, the
demand for, for the perfect thing that's coming out of their heads, and they, they
are uncompromising with how they're gonna get there.
Yeah.
It's pretty incredible.
All right, can we move on to some ch- some, um, categories?
'Cause we'll be able to kind of fold in-
Yeah
... the last couple tracks.
Yeah, sure.
And also just this issue, since you brought it up, Aja.
Like, is this... I mean, the, the elephant in the room, um,
the, the elephant in the Custer dome, Hoops McCann sitting in Custer Dome-
Mm
... is, like, is this better than Aja? Is this more perfect?
Is this-
We don't have to do that, but we will do it.
We don't have to, but we... Yeah, exactly.
I like to think of it... I mean, we were just talking about The Beatles.
I was thinking about The Beatles' albums in succession the other day, and,
like, it's almost more enjoyable for me, at this point, with
these bands, especially these great bands, to think about it as just, like, one
continuous thing-
Mm
... that's happening. You know what I mean?
And so, and-
Well, I won't box you into the better than Aja-
Okay
... 'cause that's gonna be our category, but I'll just say-
It's gonna be a category.
Yeah. No, yeah, it is.
Sure.
No, but let me ask you first.
Sure, okay.
Like, let's answer, is this a more perfect album than A-
Aja, famously, because of the production-
Yeah, yeah
... and we tackled this last year, and, and of course-
I think so
... this is a ridiculous thing.
It is more perfect.
Is it even more precise? Is it even more-
It's more precise.
Maybe a little more inaccessible.
This is one of the most precise albums I've ever heard.
Yeah.
I would agree. I totally agree, and I would say that, you know, that what
this doesn't have, it has some cool soloing on it, but it doesn't have-
It doesn't have Wayne Shorter.
It doesn't have Wayne Shorter, and not only... It's got great...
I mean, it's got Michael Brecker, but he-
Yeah
... he's never cutting loose.
That's right.
Like, so this is an even more, like, controlled album.
Very-
Great-
Controlled is a great word for this album.
Killer album, vibey album. I mean, look, if I'm-
Vibey, yes, man.
Like I said, if we're driving in Southern California with our debit card rental
car-
Right
... we're, we're listening to this, my friend.
Putting on a little-
A New York City... A record made by a bunch of New York City guys in New York.
That's what we're listening to.
For sure.
Okay, let's talk about desert island tracks.
Okay.
Um, I've got Babylon Sisters. We listened to it. It's the first track.
I wrestled with this because there's a lot of great stuff on here.
I think it's a great call.
Yeah. What do you got?
I have Hey 19.
You have Hey 19?
I have Hey 19.
Okay.
You know, I-
So they stack the first two-
I'm a pop-
... tracks at least with the, with the best, right?
Yeah, I mean, I'm a pop bro, buddy, and, and this is the- it's the poppiest track,
and I just-
Yeah
... I love it so much.
That's good. Um, so let's talk about apex moments
next, because this will lead us to, um, this next track.
I have actually, you know, My Rival, which is the next track, which is, I
think is a little bit lost on this record, being the second to last on the B side.
Incredible track.
I think it's an incredible track, and can we just sort of start listening at the
beginning? I don't know if... My, my apex moment is towards the end, so if you want
us to jump ahead. Ah!
Man, every track on this record starts great.
Damn.
Ah.
Guitar
accoutrement....
percussion. Ralph McDonald,
yeah.
The wind was driving in my face, the smell of
prickly pear.
My rival-
Prickly pear!
Showed me my ride.
The milk truck eased into my space.
Somebody screamed somewhere.
I struck a match against the door
of Anthony's Bar and Grill.
You wanna meet at Anthony's Bar and Grill later?
There's no equivalent to this music.
I know.
You know what I mean? There's-
I was the one-
You can call it in the yacht rock genre or whatever.
Jazzy yacht rock. Jazzy yacht rock fusion.
They're really a one-of-one kind of band.
I've got detectives and K-
Wendel sounds pretty good on this track. This is Wendel.
This is another Wendel track.
It says Steve Gadd, but it... I don't know if there's anything.
It does sound awesome, actually.
Yeah.
He's got a scar-
Because every little detail-
He wears a peering aim
... it gives it space.
Sure, he's a Jolly
Roger
until he answers for his crime.
Yes, I'll match him win for
win now.
Anthony Jackson on bass.
But
yeah, all the synth sounds on this album are amazing.
Yeah. Oh.
I still think it's Fagen playing it.
Fame.
Horns.
Tom Scott. Okay, I'm gonna jump ahead.
I know it's like, why are we doing this? But I, I wanna do...
Because the horns from here to the end, but I wanna jump specifically-
That's Steve Khan on the guitar there.
Yeah.
And Rick Derringer on drums.
So we're gonna jump to 3:30. Check out the horns from here to the end.
This is my apex moment.
Win for win
now.
Those voicings.
This is the most solo on this record, I think.
The leads is-
By, by the way-
Yeah
... the horns on this album, just the horn players-
So killer
... Michael Brecker, Randy Brecker-
Yeah
... David Sanborn, Tom Scott.
Yeah.
That's pretty good.
Yeah.
That's pretty good. And they're, like you said-
And Ronnie Cuber is on one track on bari.
Um-
But there's no- there's not a lot of letting them loose.
No, there's none.
All four of those-
Yeah
... players are badass players.
Yeah, who is this on guitar soloing?
Steve Khan.
Oh, Hiram Bullock?
On this track, it's Steve Khan.
Oh, Steve Khan.
Yeah.
Oh, I got... On this it says, yeah, oh, solo guitar, right.
Yeah.
But Hiram Bullock and Rick Derringer, too.
But yeah, the horns from this to the end, this is some of the best horn writing.
It's super simple, but...
Background.
Hey, we're going to the Smooth Jazz Festival in LA now.
Come on.
Bookend it.
Yeah, it's pretty great.
Yeah.
Okay, I, I, I gotta do it, man.
Yeah.
So every time I hear My Rival, I think of one thing, and this is kinda what I'm
talking about. So this would be, like, a good A/B comparison
between the perfection, the pristine
quality-
Mm
... of Steely Dan, and a very similar vibe, but not
pristine.
Hmm.
Ah.
Man, it's like another planet, right?
When's
the Bowie episode being made?
Oh, man, we gotta do it. We gotta do it.
So that's Fame, obviously. I always think of Fame when I hear My Rival.
I'm not saying that they're like, you know, super, super-duper similar-
Right
... but-
Same hair,
though. Another lawsuit.
Man, that's clean AF.
Clean!
When you compare it not to these other tracks, but to something like that-
Especially when we get to this.
Oh, could you imagine putting on, like, Sly and the Family...
I mean, it's like, oh.
It's like the clean version of-
But this is grooving.
Fame. It is groo-
Wendel-
I'm not saying it's not.
Listen, I'm not saying-
I'm not turning on Wendel.
I'm not saying it's not.
No, I know.
I'm just saying, like, there's this, like-
It's a different way to get somewhere
... very two different ways to get to a very...
Actually, a very si- I mean, that, that feels amazing, even though that's Wendel.
That's a drum machine. It feels amazing.
Uh, it's Wendel. Uh-
Is it really?
What's your... No. Who knows?
It's not a real person.
Windale?
He did get a, uh... Wendel did get a, uh, platinum record, which is a
little weird for this.
Wait, what?
Yeah. You know, it went platinum. All, all the players got...
Wendel got the, his own.
Amazing.
Yeah. What's your apex moment?
Skate a little lower now.
Do we have to listen to that part?
No, we don't, but-
You know what's funny? That might be my low point on this.
Well-
That's my quibble bit
... you're skating low.
Okay, wait, wait, this is- If I can find this. This is a famous line.
Don't even try.
Skate a little lower.
I just went right to it!
Amazing.
But it's not fair because I went right to it.
So where my brothers-
And you got all this, but then-
He literally just dragged the, the-
That was weird. That was weird. But it's got all this just, like, listless
vamping at this point. This goes on and on.
There's two-... I will not-
... knowledge!
I will not hear any-
No, it's fine, but whatever.
Slander. I love the endless vamping.
I don't, I don't know how that could be an-
I love-
That's the track-
Skate, skate a little lower now, is something I say every time this track comes on.
I say it as soon as he says it.
Out of mockery.
No, out of, like, I'm-
Out of apex joy?
I'm... You know what it is, Peter? Is, like, what you're saying, how it's, like,
this sort of, like, vamp or corny vamp-
Yeah
... like, he's kind of acknowledging, like, skate-
Yeah, I know.
It feels like a little bit of-
He's leaning into it.
Yeah, he's-
And that moment is fine. It's just...
Actually, it's more after that, like, when they come back, and it's just, like, the
tune could have been done. Which leads me to quibble bits.
Ooh, my pencil.
You got... You're excited.
That was-
I don't know about that.
You nailed it.
I don't know, man. For the listener-
Cleanly
... he just literally scrolled right to the skate a little lower.
I knew it was in the middle, I just didn't know what I was gonna do.
Amazing. Uh-
Quibble bits.
What do you got?
Mine is the mindless vamps on Hey Nineteen. There, I wrote it.
This is wrong. Is this wrong?
What you got?
Uh, is s-
Are you about to go obvious? Is this record too clean?
Is it too perfect? Am I... Do I work too hard?
Uh, no, no. I, I... You know, we've, we, we can talk endlessly about it.
It's like the, uh, endless debate about Steely Dan, about this.
The pristine nature of it is the, its biggest strength, and some people think its
biggest weakness. My quibble bit, a little bit, is some of the arranging is
just a little too fussy for me.
It's... I would agree.
For a, for, like, what... Like, when I listen to Gaucho, when
I listen to
I mean, almost any of the tracks. But like-
Yeah, no, the whole record
... Glamour Profession, and-
It does tie the record together, though.
It does, it does.
You know?
But some of it, I'm just like, "Guys, take out just, like, a third of the hits."
Right.
A third of the weird chords.
Right.
Like, just leave a little imagination to the listener.
I know that's like-
Skate a little lower. Is that what you're saying?
That's cool. Like, I want more of those moments.
A little less chords, buddy.
No, and listen, I realize, like, for a lot of people, that's what they listen to
this for, but for me, it's just, like, a couple of...
Just a little bit too busy-
Yeah
... in the arranging. But, uh-
And-
But on some of the tracks, on some of it, it's perfect, but I think it just got a
little bit-
I would agree
... overdone.
And, I mean, in terms of the pristine nature, I would say, like, if you separate...
What, what I don't think is a problem, as far as being too pristine, is the
production, is the s- is the sound engineering and, and how the record feels
sonically.
Oh, all the playing is killing.
Yeah.
All of the... And all the songwriting is killing.
The sonic is-
It's very controlled
... it's all really good.
And they've got handcuffs on the players, but, like, because the sound...
It's not like s- it doesn't sound, like, digital or...
Although it's been described as that. To me, it doesn't.
Like, you're getting the in- I mean, Wendel, maybe notwithstanding, but even that,
for an early drum machine, very organic sounding.
Very organic. No, I, I... Listen, this is a very tiny bit of a quibble.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm just saying, like, some of the tracks, like, s- like, specifically Glamour
Profession and Gaucho, I, I, I... It just gets to be a lot after a while.
I got you.
You know what I mean?
I got you. Um, accoutrements.
Uh, we forgot bespoke playlist.
Oh, sorry.
What do you got for that?
Um, I mean, I'm going lazy on this. Yacht Rock for reals.
Why you always gotta put a Z in the reals?
Man, 'cause it makes it... I don't know. I really don't know. What do you got?
I got audible honey. It's so sweet.
It's-
Audibly. Okay.
Audible honey. Land of milk and honey.
That's, uh-
Uh, we got one more
... one of my worst bespoke playlist titles, by the way.
Uh, this one's one of my worst, but it's very similar to some other bad ones.
Snob-o-meter.
Five.
Yeah, I'm going five, and you're not gonna...
See, look, you can't even look me in the eye as you say that.
I won't look you in the eye. I won't.
This truly is a five, though, because-
It is a five.
Actually, it could even be lower, because isn't this the le- I think this is the
most accessible Steely Dan record.
Aja is most accessible.
No.
I mean-
Aja is not.
Can't Buy-
I mean, I, Aja is close
... Can't Buy a Thrill might be.
Can't Buy a Thrill! Oh, sorry.
Can't Buy-
He's making fun of me for that.
I'm not.
No, Can't Buy a Thrill, I mean-
Oh, that's you.
It might be.
Well-
You know, you got Dirty Work, you got-
Yeah
... a bunch of hits on there, you know?
What's Do It Again on?
Can't Buy a Thrill.
Oh, it's Can't Buy... Yeah, that is...
Well, that's the pop- well, is that the poppiest?
Aja's the most popular one, right?
Probably.
Yeah. Anyway, it's, it's... I would, I, I would almost...
I said five, but I would, I could go three, too. I could go two.
I, I wouldn't argue with any of it.
I mean, the thing is, Steely Dan, to the Dans out there, it's
like-
It's-
... with Dan heads, it's like all- every Steely Dan utterance is a 10, right?
To anyone listening, we'll explain the snob-o-meter, in that we don't really know
how it works. But one means that it's very accessible to listen to, 10 means
it's very snobby, kind of hard listen.
Ethan Iverson would write a, a 300-word essay on Substack
about it.
That's right.
Yeah.
He's a 10. And if it's a one, your Aunt Linda would listen to it.
That's right.
She'd love it.
Aunt, Aunt, Aunt Linda's gotta love this thing.
I think she kinda does, actually.
Yeah, yeah.
So.
I, I'm gonna go three. I'm gonna go three.
Mm, there's a lot of drugs for Aunt Linda, so...
We gotta place it, 1979.
Yeah.
Um, better than Aja. We're going Aja - some might say better than Countdown to Ecstasy, but
that's a ridiculous comparison.
Sometimes we say better than Innervisions.
Yeah.
Interesting that you chose Aja for better than.
Well, I'm just like, what do you compare... I mean, you could say, like, um...
I don't know.
It's-
I mean, what, what was came out right around this time is, uh, that we've covered,
is Off The Wall. So I, I would be okay to go with that, 'cause that's, I think,
from a year before.
I think it's a no for both for me.
Yeah, me too. Great record, though.
It's a great record.
I mean, Aja is, like, to me, that's-
It's not better than-
Yeah.
For me, it's not better than Aja, and it's not better than Off The Wall.
Yeah. Uh, accoutrements. This is when we look at the album, we look at the liner
notes, we fondle them- ... we enjoy them, and we rate them.
I think it's an eight. I want a little more. It's an eight. It's good.
Ooh, I'm going nine on this. I... There's-
I love the front cover. I love the image.
The front cover-
Just-
... this is an Argentinian-
Yeah
... um, fresco, I think, or something.
This always scared me when I was young.
It's scary.
Still, still does a little bit.
Yeah.
Man, the s- use of space here.
It's a beautiful color, it's a beautiful-
Yeah
... use of space. I think it's really good.
I love the, the lyrics that are on here.
I mean, I would take a, one point off for the inaccuracy of the personnel that's
implied, but I'm going nine.
Okay.
Um, up next, this would be, what do we wanna listen to on a Spotify playlist when
we get to the end of this?
I put Nightfly by Donald Fagen.
Nightfly. Oof, okay. That's cool.
Not your fave?
Not my fave. Um,
ooh, oh, I was a little salty... I was a little spicy when I wrote this.
You see what I have?
I do.
I don't even know if I wanna say it.
Don't say it.
Up next for me is Aja, so I can hear a better record.
Peter Martin, that's rude, dude.
Oh, my God. Okay.
Hey, you know, we got a newsletter, Peter.
If you wanna sign up for our newsletter-
Let me guess what it's called.
What?
You'll Read It.
You got it, buddy!
You'll Read It.
Click the link below in the show notes. Peter, this has been a blast, dude.
This has been awesome, man.
I love this album. Really fun listen.
Thank you to-
...Steely Dan for the great music.
Yeah, to the Dan.
It's unbelievable.
Shout out to everybody that's still with us, and RIP to obviously Walter Becker,
Anthony Jackson, um, but you know-
The hard work paid off, boys.
Yeah.
It sounds great.
It's a great record, yeah. Till next time.
You'll hear
it.
Sorry,
I missed the-