[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan, you've just flown back in like you've been doing a real fly in fly out job.

[00:00:20] Dan: I did, I did. I'm just back from Germany and, um, working with a CEO and their team, they were, they a great team actually. Really, really promising. And they were, they've done the Squadify And they're working on psychological safety, which is our, um, our job for today. So they, they really did some amazing work to get themselves really on that road. It's a good, you know, it's a good team, they just wanted to do some work on that and to really deepen the relationships before they get stuck into their, into their strategy, which was a, which was a really good move. So, um, yeah, really, really great to, to be out there 

[00:00:51] Pia: And it's definitely a bit of a theme for us, isn't it? Because we just completed a webinar, um, on psychosocial hazards, which is available in the show notes. Um, and we've looked at this from a legal perspective because that's very, uh, timely in Australia where it's become a regulatory requirement to mitigate against psychosocial hazards. So, um, there'll be some handouts and softened that may be really useful and a link to that webinar.

[00:01:18] And we had such a good. Discussion on that webinar, we decided to invite our guests and presenters on, on the webinar, um, Rebecca Pinkstone, CEO of Bridge Housing, um, and Lee Geary, who's the, um, executive Director of People Culture and Brand. And those two talked about their journey of creating a. Psychologically Safe and well organization. And we felt that it was just such a valuable subject and their story just so real and practical and tangible that we've invited them back. So, let's head over and hear from Beck and hear from Lee.

[00:02:01] So we've got, um, a great conversation about the journey you've been on as an organization, and we're going to really get our hands dirty, exploring about psych safety and the challenges, what it is, what it isn't, and, and how you've been on this journey to build it. All your wonderful people at Bridge. But you know, you've been, the most exciting part you've been waiting for is the, um, questions from Dan Hammond and to be entered into, I think it's our in, it's our onboarding process for we,

[00:02:41] Dan: It's, isn't It?

[00:02:42] Pia: And, um, yeah, so I'll hand hand you over and there's two of you, so maybe you might like to confer or maybe you've got different viewpoints. We'll see, we'll see.

[00:02:50] Dan: Excellent. I'm trying to make, I'm trying to capture authentic shuffling sounds as I shuffle these cards and I'm now gonna cut them. Um, it's the, the power, it's the power of radio, isn't it? I've got the face for radio and I can now shuffle on radio. Um, okay, here we go. It's a nice green card for you, and it is one of my simple pleasures is.

[00:03:09] Rebecca: Simple pleasure. I could probably go first 'cause I suppose my simple pleasure in life is eating great food, and, uh, sharing meals with, um, friends and family. So I really love the process of, uh, cooking, celebrating eating, um, sharing stories and that socializing that happens over food. So that's one of the simple pleasures in life for me.

[00:03:36] Pia: And And are you a good cook? You must be a good cook, then.

[00:03:39] Rebecca: I, I, I like cooking, but I have to say that my husband is an excellent, excellent cook. So it really is fantastic. So we, we like to go through the rest, uh, the books from our favorite restaurants and then try and cook them up and, you know, spend the afternoon and evening cooking up and sharing meals. So it's, it's great. It's great.

[00:04:01] Pia: that's impressive. That's, it is always good actually when you do, when you paid a lot of money for a meal and then you go home and cook it for half the price.

[00:04:08] Rebecca: Or maybe even a little bit less than that.

[00:04:11] Pia: Yeah. exactly. 

[00:04:13] Dan: indeed. Ah, excellent. Very nice. Simple pleasure. In fact, we had, um, we talked, um, you may have heard on the podcast, um, recently with someone who's done a lot of work in communities trying to bridge across the gap. And his, when we said, how do you start, his answer was food, which we really loved. So, uh, so yeah, it's, it's a great way to connect, isn't it? So, uh, thank you, Beck. Lee, what about a simple pleasure for you? What's, um, what is it?

[00:04:40] Lee: Yeah, so a simple pleasure for me, is just getting out into the bush a bit and, um, I love being surrounded just by trees. I find them really calming and, um, yeah, feel that that's a, very. Pleasurable pursuit, but also to calm my racing mind. So yeah, getting in the bush.

[00:05:02] Dan: How lovely. And it's a little bit cooler, isn't it? I've only noticed in recent years how trees call the, uh, the atmosphere so love, so beautifully. It's, it's a wonderful place to be. Excellent. Well, look, um, thank you both, that, that's, um, I hope you find plenty of time too in indulge in those simple pleasures. And, uh, Lee, I'm gonna stick with you, um, to ask this question. So tell us a bit about you a little bit more what your, your sort of little bio in a box.

[00:05:29] Lee: Yeah, sure. So, um, my bio in a box is, um, I've had sort of various careers before coming to Bridge. Um, I think a theme throughout my working life has been capacity building and organizational development. So I started out in learning and development, worked in it, have worked in operations, um, as well, and then have come to Bridge, really to head up the people and culture and brand part. So, I think that kind of connection between people and culture and brand is really important about communicating messages and having visual information to help support your brand and your, and your message for your organization. So this is my happy place, I would say.

[00:06:15] Yeah, Bridge is a really purpose driven organization. And having a really, uh, engaged leader in that space that takes it really seriously means that, um, we can do some really good work. So that's what's brought me here. And then in terms of here, into the, into our conversation, we've really been focusing on psychological safety and using Squadify to help us, um, with data-driven decisions around our leadership and, um, building teams.

[00:06:44] Dan: Wonderful and Lee, before we hear from that leader, I have to say that, um, when you were, um, on the webinar the other day and, uh, you presented the, um, Bridge housing values and it was such a beautiful slide, so succinct and clear and the values were just spot on. I thought this organization really has their act together. Let's, let's say, but now I know where it came from, so it's good to know. Good

[00:07:13] Lee: We are giving it a good crack. We're giving it a good crack.

[00:07:16] Dan: it was, it's, so you're doing superb work there. Um, so let's hear from that leader, Beck. What about you? Tell us about your, uh, point to get to this place today.

[00:07:25] Rebecca: Yeah, well I started off, um, in sort of community development work in government and, um, local government. And then since that time about, I'd say it's 20 years ago, I fell into social housing because it really brought everything together, you know, a home, without a home, you really cannot fulfill your life's potential in any way. So, so just being, working in that area of social and affordable housing, I, I, every day I get to see how transformative a home can be for people and their children and the communities in which they live. So I just got hooked. And ever since that time I've been working in social and affordable housing in government.

[00:08:09] And then about eight years ago I moved into the non-government sector. Um, and I've been at Bridge since that time and I took over A-C-E-O-A couple of years ago. And I think the thing I love about Bridge is, um, we're embedding that learning journey in everything that we do. So across the organization, we're gonna talk about that in terms of psychological safety today, but how do we learn from other organizations, other industries about good practice and things that we can pick up and use? Um, and also when we are embarking on journeys of change within the organization, how do we continually learn and improve what we're doing? Um, because that's the beauty of being in a smaller organization. You, you know, the concept of failing fast. You can try things. If they don't work, you can learn from them and move on. And, and that ability to be flexible and to do things differently is something that I really want everyone in their organization, from our frontline receptionist, through to our executive team to be thinking about.

[00:09:09] Pia: Let, before we dive in, let's, let's paint the picture. So if you continue Beck with that, let's paint the picture. What's the organization like? What do you do? What's a typical day? What's the pressures that your people feel on a daily basis?

[00:09:24] Rebecca: So so I would say that we're about providing people with a home. And, um, so that goes from the perspective of people who are currently homeless or at risk of homelessness coming and seeing us and applying for housing, through to our residents. And we have around, um, we manage around three and a half thousand properties and we provide a home for about. Five and a half thousand people in metropolitan Sydney. And most of those people are facing the housing crisis. You know, they're experiencing that every day. And what we can do is provide a safe, secure, and affordable home for those people. And the way we do that is through limiting the rent that we're charging so that it is actually affordable to the person's income.

[00:10:10] And so for our frontline staff, it's very much about the basics of property and tenancy management and, um, making sure that our properties are at standard and that people are paying their rent, and that when things are getting wobbly around tenancies, when people are struggling, that we also are there. Our team is there to support people, to be able to access services, to keep their home, because that's the most important thing for us is. Is helping our residents get a home and keep their home over the longer term.

[00:10:43] I think the beauty of a, of a provider like Bridge Housing, a community housing provider is we look at the whole person. So we like to support our tenants to find a home and keep a home, but also we like to build stronger communities through our community development work, make sure people are accessing the services they need, so providing a holistic, um, view of that person's life and how we can help as a, as a housing provider.

[00:11:10] Pia: I mean, gosh, that, that you, you would think that that being part of that would fill everybody up and would be a, you know, because it's such a rich and valuable contribution to the community, but my sense is it's probably pretty hard at the coalface. So, Lee, what's the, what's the experience like and what have you, what have, what are you facing with your people to provide this invaluable service?

[00:11:39] Lee: I, I think you've, um, summed it up there, Pia, like in terms of people really being driven to make a tangible difference. And, and, um, what I would say is that, community housing providers really do make a tangible difference. So a home is something very tangible rather than sort of providing support services and those other things. So, um, all our staff are really driven, To change people's lives through providing homes and delivering quality services. But that doesn't mean that it's, um, that it's all rosy along that journey.

[00:12:12] So Beck was talking about some of those wobbles that some of our residents may have. Uh, our residents can have really complex needs and that can mean that service delivery is challenging. So I say, it gets pretty gritty sometimes, you know, with, um, with sort of, um, providing really good services for people that are in distress sometimes. And sometimes that service delivery needs to be really swift and quick, you know, that, that people's safety is in jeopardy sometimes. And, and, um, our staff need to make quick decisions that can have high stakes.

[00:12:47] So, you know, that environment longer term can mean that there is burnout for our staff. And, um, wellbeing is really important. And our sort of support of, when our residents have that wobble, but also our staff members have that wobble too. And that's, that's not linear. So I would say that's a, that's ongoing work.

[00:13:12] Rebecca: I think we've seen in in Australia, like a lot of other systems across the world and jurisdictions across the world, that to get social housing in Australia, you really have to have, it's not only about poverty or low income, you have to have a range of other complexities in your life that have led you and prioritize you to be able to get into the social housing system. And that might be coming from homelessness or domestic violence, mental health, drug and alcohol. So there's other complexities combined with ongoing trauma. If you've been on the streets and living and been homeless.

[00:13:49] So we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable people in society. We are providing a home for those people, and that makes service delivery, you know, rewarding because you are really making a difference in people's lives. But there's the challenges of, of balancing that and providing services to very vulnerable people as well.

[00:14:08] Pia: And so, nurturing, it's pretty obvious to nurture the right culture inside your organization is key. 'cause it 'cause you, you need to nourish your own people to be delivering the services for the people that really need that.

[00:14:26] Lee: How, how we've sort of built that sort of psychological, or our building probably is a better phrase, the sort of psychological safety or that sort of platform of wellbeing is, Bridge has taken learning and development very seriously for a very long time. So things like strengths are sort of part of our way of life here, both for residents, but for staff as well. So there's, there's a sort of been a strong foundation of learning, I would say, over decades.

[00:14:55] And then, more recently, we've really been looking at building the capacity of our leaders to really be focusing on cultivating the conditions for high performance and high wellbeing. And really looking at that from the sort of me level. So the individual level, and then looking at the, we level, so the team and leadership, and then the whole organizational. So sort of getting those layers of the system thinking about wellbeing and performance. So both of those things together.

[00:15:26] And we've used, uh, Squadify to help look at those. What makes the sort of conditions of success within a team, um, within our individual teams. And then we also do the sort of, uh, employee engagement surveys as well. So there's a rich source of data there to support us really looking at how we're progressing in this particular area. And then we've really been overlaying leadership development in bite-sized chunks, to really focus on what are the practical skills that are required from our leaders to be able to nurture psychological safe spaces.

[00:16:02] And, um, one of the things I think that really is practical for most organizations, but. Particularly for Bridge as things can get gritty, uh, is to really say, you know, we want an environment that's safe enough for us to have, uh, high wellbeing and, and high performance as well. So it doesn't mean that everything's perfect all of the time, but that we really maintain that focus for our people throughout all that we do. 

[00:16:29] Rebecca: I think That you have to look at both. So, so yes, we're a not-for-profit organization, but our business is run on tenant rent. That's how our business absolutely functions. So we need to be efficient and make sure that our performance and our, and our financial fundamentals of the business are there. And for our perspective it's not an either or. You can focus on delivering and delivering well and having great outcomes in terms of your KPIs and balancing that with wellbeing.

[00:17:01] And the journey that we've been on around the whole business has been around positive psychology and how do you turn up to the workplace when you're working in really different environments? Um, that it can be very difficult for our frontline staff as well as as, as our tenants and our customers. How do you present around that? How do you think about, how does your whole self turn up to work? And then how, what are the behaviors that we need in the workplace that help us perform well, but also maintain a really high sense of wellbeing in the business?

[00:17:37] So it's about balancing those two elements of performance, but at the same time wellbeing. And I think that's at the heart of psychological safety. It's that you, it's not about. Being able to get rid of all of these external stresses or the, the people that you're working with. It's a reality of who you're working with and the complexity of dealing with things like homelessness. That's not easy work and it won't go away. How do we help our support and support our staff to be able to manage that? Be values aligned because you don't work for an organization like Bridge Housing unless your values aligned. Harness that sort of passion around values and mission, but also make sure that people aren't burning out, that we're supporting them in their wellbeing and seeing that holistically. 

[00:18:25] Dan: it's a, it's a complex. Thing you're trying to, you're trying to achieve here. And the, and the frontline. You, you, you've, you're very frontline focused, quite rightly 'cause that's where the, you, you touch your tenants and that's where, um, things are working. It sounds like those folks have to be particularly, really embody everything that you're trying to do. How do you find those people? Talk. What, how do you select them when, with they, when you are, when you are, when you're bringing people in, what does that process look like?

[00:18:53] Rebecca: Well, yeah, I think a lot of it's been some of the, the thinking around, often people think it's just like a real estate agent. Function. So, but it's not, yes, you do have to understand the Residential Tenancies Act and operate in accordance with that, but it's so much more. 

[00:19:10] So I, I think you know the pathways for our housing managers and, and we do have a big focus on that because our housing managers are our key relationship managers with tenants. Every touchpoint with a tenant creates a difference and creates an impact, and it's either positive or negative, and we want to increase that and make it as positive as possible for both our residents and our staff. So, so it really is important that we're supporting them.

[00:19:38] Um, but the pathway into social housing is so diverse. You, we've got people who have come from social work and welfare backgrounds that are working as our housing managers, um, who've worked in support agencies in homelessness services, who have worked in real estate and who want to actually shift their career and think about giving back. So we've got many pathways of, of people who are interested in, um, making a difference by providing a home.

[00:20:09] So, you know, the people that are coming to Bridge and, and you know, we have over 99% of people, I think, what was our last one? 98% of people believe in the mission of and vision for Bridge Housing. And we just have really values aligned people working in the business.

[00:20:27] The other side of that can be actually burnout. Because you are so aligned, you believe in what you're doing, you're committed, but it's very hard work and it can be very difficult when you're dealing with challenging behaviors and, and you're on the frontline dealing with that. So we don't take that for granted, the fact that people are values aligned, we're actually trying to support them because we know that the work is hard over time. And that's where some of these other. Uh, programs that, that Lee's been talking around leadership, around positive psychology, around strengths based, what are your strengths? What gives you a passion to come to work? How do we play to people's strengths in the workplace, those things are there to try and foster wellbeing and, and, and sustain people in this work because it can be hard over time.

[00:21:14] Lee: one of, one of the very, sort of practical ways that we support that sort of mission led organization is we have our all staff meetings, which, you know, lots and lots of organizations do, but we also really emphasize tenant outcome stories at those. So really get the rich stories about how a house and the services that Bridge had provided has really supported someone to be able to pursue their own goals in their own lives.

[00:21:44] And Pia, you were talking about filling up people's cups before. That is one way that we do that. So you've got the kind of day-to-day grind of the, you know, the services that you might provide. Be providing, but to pause as an organization and just have a look at the impact that you know, one home has for one person or a family is really supportive and cup filling for the organization because it is so mission driven if you like. And sometimes you can lose sight of that if you're just doing your day to day without sort of stepping back and having a look at the impact of the work that you're doing.

[00:22:19] Pia: And I wanted to circle back. I, I think we talked, and Dan mentioned this at the top of the show, about the values at Bridge. So, so that, I think they're like central because they're probably what draws people to Bridge and to the, to the mission. And then how did you take those values and build this Me We Us approach, which I think we talk a little bit more about.

[00:22:46] Lee: Yeah, sure. So, um, Bridge has always had a really strong mission. So our mission is to change people's lives through the provision of more homes and quality services. So that is a really succinct. Way of saying what this organization does in a nutshell. And then after Beck came on as CEO, um, we then really looked at, uh, just refreshing our values. So the values were always really strong. We had sort of double barreled concepts in our values, and they're really hard to remember. But, but the sentiment was very similar to, the refresh values that we have now. So we really just embarked on a listening and engagement process with the organization.

[00:23:29] So we started from the inside and then worked out through what we wanted to stand for as an organization at this point in time. And just being really conscious that we wanna be able to remember them so that we don't have to look them up to, to really, um, understand the concept. So that's really where we came up with our values.

[00:23:50] And there were a couple of really interesting sentiments that ran right the way through the workshops for our staff, but also the board and also for tenants. And that was the notion of care and care for each other, for our customers and for community as well. And then our value, so integrity, that we act ethically and honestly. Inclusion, that we cultivate diversity and belonging and innovation, that we look for new ways to make a positive. Impact. So they were sort of threads throughout it all. And in some ways to go back to Beck's cooking analogy, we sweated all of the concepts down to come up with those three values. And then we've got supporting behaviors underneath.

[00:24:31] So one of the things that I am extremely passionate about values is to turn them into behaviors, and then we understand what they are and what they aren't. Rather than aspirations on a wall, let's get really practical with them. So then we've got those sort of supporting behaviors that sit underneath the values. So they're taking responsibility for our actions. Embracing different perspectives, so that's really important for the work that we do, approaching our work with optimism. So it's sort of picking up on the positive psychology there, and then discovering solutions and possibilities.

[00:25:05] So, you know, Beck's talked about some of the complexities of the housing crisis and providing homes and in this sort of service delivery approach. But to really look at some of those, you know, they get called wicked problems in new ways. So to to bite it off chunks, try things, and then deliver programs in a different way has been really core to and part of the fabric of bridge.

[00:25:30] So they, they were our values. So then we've, we've sort of taken those and then embedded those in our, say performance management system. We're also part of the sort of leadership program, but what we're saying is we're not experts in them all of the time, but we're gonna learn and build our ca capability as we go. So there's starting to be the fabric of what this place stands for, over and above the kind of posters on the wall or those sorts of things. So really embedding them into our everyday practices and holding each other and ourselves to account. So, we sort of talk about it as being above the line or below the line, and you might be. Borderline, but to catch yourself and to catch others doing really great work, but also where there might be a wobble as well to have that conversation.

[00:26:18] Rebecca: I think the thing that we liked about when we saw Squadify is that, you know, most organizations have this annual survey and they can, you know, it gives you a big view of what's going on, but actually it's the everyday interactions in your team environment that makes organizations function. And that's the beauty of Squadify that you can say, you actually get together as a team and or a team of teams, as we say at Bridge, 'cause there's many teams. But you can, it enables you to say what does our, what does a great team look like for us? And then how are we tracking against that? So the reality of that, and then what can we do together to practically change that?

[00:27:00] So a lot of our work had been previously at Bridge, you know, the big survey, and then we'd all go and we'd do, 20 strategies under that big survey and, but it didn't really, you know, it's the everyday interactions. And so making sure that we're bringing back that values to everyday conversations about how teams are working, and that you can have those conversations and you can develop your own responses.

[00:27:24] Because not all teams are functioning in the same way in Bridge. So they've got different issues that they're facing and and issues that need to be addressed at that really local level. And so you've gotta take on things at different levels around culture and values, otherwise, yeah, just waiting for trying to do it at the us level every time, is it going to work?

[00:27:45] So the me level around my own performance, where I wanna be in my career, and having that relationship with your manager, the us in the team,, and an organization, we, we need to look at different levels of interventions around, around things because, um, that's, that also goes to psychological safety. It's not a static concept. It moves over time. It moves when there's change in a business. It moves when you are individually going through something personally and how you present at work. So it's about the ability to be able to pick up on change over time and respond to that as an organization because it's, it's a process and a learning process rather than a static, here we are, we've reached psychological safety. It doesn't work like that. ,

[00:28:32] Pia: it's not at the top of a mountain. It's not a destination, it's a process. And it's, it's probably worth mentioning here because, uh, some of our listeners will obviously be in Australia, but some are outside that, uh, very recently the work and health and safety legislation has changed to really, um, take on board what they call these psychosocial hazards, and to put the responsibility for organizations to proactively manage them. And so what that means is, is that you recognize that they exist and that you've got processes to work with in order to be able to support individuals. I don't think it's looking for a magic wand, I think to your point, because that's unrealistic, but it's the recognition of it and knowing that it, that it is a fundamental element of individual and team and organizational performance.

[00:29:31] Rebecca: Exactly right. And I think the, the, um, there are a number of hazards and they exist differently in different workplaces. So what the change in legislation is very useful for is thinking from an organizational per, a risk lens for that organization. Where are the hazards going to be most acute in your business? Because not everyone's doing the work that Bridge Housing is doing, you will have different issues facing your business.

[00:29:56] And when you've identified those and you think about it, how are you monitoring that at an ongoing level throughout the organization so that it doesn't take somebody losing it or, or really facing a, a huge crisis to start questioning what's going on in the organization? That you, you're aware that this is a fundamental part of doing your job. And that, that therefore, as, as an organization, you need to be managing that in partnership with your, with your staff, so that you can be really clear about how you are helping foster that wellbeing and that safety in the workplace.

[00:30:32] And, and some of that's about just being able to have a conversation about what's going on. And being honest about that. And so some of the work that we've done around the positive psychology and, and radical candor, and having candor conversations is being able to put your hand up and raise these issues within the organization without fear that you're going to be seen like you're not coping or that you know there's going to be some retribution. We actually need to have conversations about this because our work is hard and people's individual lives and their own personal lives show up at work as well.

[00:31:11] And so there's this combination of. The workplace and what's happening in the workplace, but that own that, that person's own individual issues that they're facing as well. And so the interplay between those needs to be, as an organization, how you can identify that and see the canary in the coal mine that might be raising bigger issues for your organization.

[00:31:32] Lee: And I think, just building on that, Beck, and with, I think it's also with sort of the implementation of refresh values and those sorts of things, is that there's a harder edge. So you've gotta intervene if you are seeing something that we're not just walking by if there's something that isn't quite working or, you know, things are slightly off, that we really are having those conversations. But also as an organization intervening to sort things out swiftly for individuals, but also teams.

[00:32:02] Dan: And, um, Beck, you mentioned there sort of speaking up. And I just wanted to dive into one particular aspect of psychological safety and that that's one that we see in teams using Squadify, struggling with a lot. This one pops up a lot, which is that challenger safety, you know, that top end of town according to Tim Clark, the ability to safely challenge the status quo, but also the views of those in authority in order to make sort of more radical changes, and this is sort of a key to innovation and movement.

[00:32:32] This seems to be something that people are challenge struggling with more, if even if they have the other elements in place. What do you, what, what are you doing to make sure that people can challenge and, uh, what, what have you seen that works?

[00:32:43] Rebecca: Well, I think some of the things that we've done around engagement of staff in some of the big change in the organization, and making sure that there is an opportunity to bring staff into the decision making process is really important when you're creating change. So having, having the ability to have people from different points of view, not necessarily from a leadership only perspective, they might be subject matter experts or frontline staff. I think sometimes you can get in organizations caught up in having. All the managers come together and have a conversation about something.

[00:33:19] So how do you enable that to happen in different ways? Um, how do you enable people to make confidential suggestions about change? And we have mechanisms at Bridge where people can make suggestions for change, and we have a discussion about that. And how do you make sure that you are role modeling that from a leadership perspective?

[00:33:39] So, you know, within the executive team, it's not like we're all getting along all the time and, and everyone agrees with everything actually, debate and discussion usually leads to a better outcome. So how do you foster that in an organi? You know, that idea of the dialectic, two ideas coming together with an opposing position, that actually creates a better outcome in the end. You can't get that with group think or when people are, uh, thinking, um, that they can't speak up and you don't get that for innovation. Because usually some of the innovation comes from out left field ideas from other industries or other ways of thinking.

[00:34:19] So I think you really need to be fostering that and role modeling that in the organization. If people don't feel and see that happening live, I don't think it will happen because you really, from all levels, need to be encouraging that discussion and debate, and you can do that respectfully. With candor, with care, as Ali said, 'cause care is a, a fundamental underpinning at what we're doing, that you show care to that person.

[00:34:46] Um, so it, it's, it's many levels and many interventions to be able to have that, but I fundamentally believe you need to be able to discuss these things and come up with different ideas and perspectives, um, and you need to foster that and role model that at a leadership team level.

[00:35:02] Lee: And the other thing that I would add there, like sometimes you know, you might not have an individual who stands on the table and broadcast exactly what they're feeling, but there'll be hints. So I think it's like noticing the breadcrumbs if you like, and staying curious. So really, you know, asking for does anybody have a different view? And then if you can see someone that's a bit despondent in that meeting, like just seeing if there's any, you know, any information there. So I think it doesn't always have to be, you know, the outward statement, but as leaders noticing and staying curious, to see whether you can mine for those, opposing views as well, because different people, like some people would be very comfortable expressing their views. Others will give you little hints, and I think it's about following up on those hints.

[00:35:50] Rebecca: Yeah, the one-on-one stuff I think is really important. Noticing that as a leader in your team, when people aren't engaging in the same way, that emotional intelligence to read people differently. There's something going on. They're not presenting in the same way or I'm rather than going to, they're little nuggets that you can pick up around people and how they're functioning that enable you to see some of that psychological safety, where it mightn't be working really well because they're presenting in different ways or they're not engaging or, yeah, it's, it can be sometimes very subtle. And so, as you know, as leaders in organizations, you, you're balancing lots of different things, aren't you? And you really emotionally need to be able to read people and how they're, how they're relating in your team.

[00:36:37] Pia: That ability to read is really important. And also I think listening to this, I think sometimes there's a misperception that psychological safety and wellbeing means that means that you give up on high performance. You and it, sort of, it's a bit like we have a nice kumbaya, light the Joss sticks and hold hands. And, the, you know, and it, and in some organizations, you know, it's nice in inverted commas.

[00:37:04] And we get, so we get sort of, we get a bit polarized about these things, whereas the value here is, and I think the picture you're really painting beautifully is the, and, but how, how do you keep that end of performance? 'As you say, you're a business, you know you're not altruistic.

[00:37:21] Rebecca: No, we are altru altruistic, but I think that we need to focus on our outcomes and, and making sure that we're viable. There's no use being really friendly to each other and then going outta business. So, so that we've got at Bridge Housing and Management operating System. And the reason we brought that in was that we were going to be going through a huge period of growth and change, and we wanted to make sure that our business fundamentals, our KPIs were on track.

[00:37:52] What was happening was that we were having conversations about KPIs in a monthly meeting with your staff around performance. And that's too late. Number one, you're not achieving your goals on time, and then you are having a, a professional development conversation, which really should be about the person and where they wanna go in their career and how you can help them to get there around performance.

[00:38:15] So what we brought in was a management operating system, and that helps us track all of our KPIs in business rhythms, usually weekly. We do it from an executive level through to the frontline staff, and we all know what our KPIs and business objectives are. Where things are going off track we can immediately escalate them and get them on track in a timely manner. We're not waiting for a monthly review process to understand that.

[00:38:40] So one of the criticisms we got about the management operating system is, oh my God, you're so focused on KPIs and when are we having those conversations, right? So, so we know it ourselves because we, we really wanted to make sure that when we were growing by 40%, our KPIs didn't get off track. It, we were on track around that and we could grow, and we had a sustainable way of growing the business and knew that we were on track.

[00:39:06] But balancing that with the psychological safety is really important because you're celebrating wins. You're addressing issues when they're coming up through your KPIs, but then it has actually freed up the process to focus on people. So when, when managers are having a conversation with their staff, they're actually talking to their staff as people and what they wanna achieve. What are their barriers? It's not really about KPIs anymore, it's about that person. And I think that's been a really great shift within the business.

[00:39:39] It also enables people to say, you know, I want your job, or I wanna go into this area, and how, how can we foster, foster that sort of understanding within bridge? Because for us it's, we're a small organization. You know, there's nothing better for me than when I see our staff going off into other organizations as leaders in other businesses. Because it really says to me that we're able to foster that and it goes on and it gets, and it, and it has a multiplier effect.

[00:40:10] So by being able to separate out KPI Management. Performance and some people won't perform, but there's a process around performance that is separate to, to having that conversation about them and how they're showing up at work and, and what, what's around them as a whole person. Um, so I think we've got both of those and we're trying to balance it all the time. And sometimes, you know, it swings one way or the other because it has to as a business.

[00:40:38] But you know, you need to be looking at different levels and, and I think sometimes we confuse processes and we're dealing with performance in the wrong way. We're having those conversations in the wrong way. Um, so, so being able to track those KPIs is really fundamental to us. And then having the conversations about the broader safety, better ways of doing things in the business, it really enables you to free up and have more time to have those conversations with staff that aren't around KPI management.

[00:41:10] Lee: And I think those, um, we call them huddles, but those are sort of meetings that we have as teams, you know, that really looking at the KPIs for the teams, like there's a bit of radical candor in that so that it's not hidden, you know, away. Everybody's seeing, you know, where the team is up to. And for some individuals that, that can be a confronting thing to be part of that team and part of those rituals. We do that on the weekly basis and people get used to that, you know, that part of our culture.

[00:41:40] But I think the other thing to say is to keep that sort of high wellbeing and high performance is that it may not suit everybody. You know, so this is the way that we operate and we're unapologetic about that, you know, in terms of really striving for high performance and high wellbeing, because as an organization we've got big ambitions, you know, to help house more people. But it, it doesn't mean that it's for everyone as well. So I think there's a reality of that that, you know, you want people who really wanna thrive in this environment, and they do. But also to really understand that those sorts of ways of managing may not be for everybody.

[00:42:20] Rebecca: What the management operating system for us does is it moves it out individual performance and it says as a team. So it's great if you are a housing manager and you are cracking all your KPIs, but if as a team we're failing and we're not meeting our KPIs as a business, how good is that? The management operating system turns that around and says, how do we achieve these goals as a team? We know X, Y, and Z is sick and they've gotta be off. We know this person's gotta be doing this stuff, or they've gotta look after their kids that day. How do we then meet our KPIs as a team that week? So it really forces a different way of thinking. So that idea about me and team is much more connected at Bridge than I've seen in other organizations.

[00:43:03] Dan: Definitely we, we see this. It's so great to hear that. I think that's an absolute gem for our listener because so many teams we see have a very strongly KPI driven and this used to be seen as really good management practice, and then they're surprised. That the team isn't working together. It, it's sort of, yeah, but you, you've actually built that into these KPIs, which are often conflicting. Um, so yeah. Uh, that, that's a, that's a wonderful, um, sort of an inspiring way to, to approach this.

[00:43:30] And, um, your stories, it's so impressive and, uh, I'm sure a lot of the listeners will be thinking, God, I'd love to be there. Where, where that, where they are. But you've, you've, it's been a long, old journey. What, what's your tip for something practical people could do? What, what's your favorite thing? Or some tip or bit of advice to say, just to take a step wherever people are to go that little bit further along that journey?

[00:43:54] Lee: Um, I'll just use the me, we, us theme. Like, if I think about the US level, I think it's about getting really consistent and deliberate with your language that you're using throughout all of these different processes. And that's where Squadify is helping us unite around the kind of leadership behaviors where we're really aligning that language to the Squadify language that we're measuring in teams. So you don't have that and, and we've all experienced it, but feeling a bit hazy when somebody's talking about accountability. Somebody's talking about leadership, someone's talking about purpose. Like what are all of these words mean? So to really distill it down so we're all talking the same thing.

[00:44:37] Rebecca: For those of us that have worked in very big organizations where we feel like there's no ability to change things or you're on a path and you can't shift it, what we've really focused on at Bridge is how we are all responsible for identifying issues and creating change. It's not the CEO or the executive's responsibility only. Everyone in the business you are doing the job. You know, you can see what's working and what's not working. And we have the beautiful flexibility of being able to address that as a smaller organization. We can identify these things, we can look for better ways of doing it, and we can just implement them. So for me, it's really about how you're empowering staff at every level of the organization to see issues, opportunities for change and innovation, and then actually acting on them.

[00:45:31] Pia: And I think, um, I think so much of what you've said is relevant to our, our listeners today. I, I think that, it wouldn't help if you see that your mission is something that an organization in a bank or a healthcare or tech goes Well, we don't kind of have that, because certainly my observation is the burnout is definitely there. So the but the different issues, different pressure, same humans having a sort of human experience. So I think lots of, so much can be gleaned from our conversation about that, bringing the mission to life, bringing the values to life, and then really working that hand in hand. Both of, we can find a world where we are clear on expectations of performance and we do everything we can to support the safety, wellbeing and psych, psych safety of individuals to flourish. And I think that's what you've so brilliantly articulated.

[00:46:36] Lee: And I would add, knowing that everyone has a wobble down, then

[00:46:40] Pia: Yeah. all have the wobbles.

[00:46:42] Rebecca: Yeah,

[00:46:43] Lee: that's right.

[00:46:44] Pia: And it's, it's almost, it's almost knowing that the wobbles are gonna come and planning for it.

[00:46:49] Rebecca: Yeah, it's a, it's that idea that we're whole people. We come with all of the history that we've had through our lives, our, our own live experiences. We come from the not sleeping of the night looking after kids or have to care for our parents, and then we turn up to work. And the idea that you turn up to work and all of that just disappears, and you are just this person at work, it it, it's not a reality.

[00:47:14] So how do you build organizations that recognize people as individuals, but maintain that focus on our common goal and what we wanna achieve together and set those expectations about our workplace being a good place to be. When everything else is going mad, I want people to feel like they can come to work and do a good job and, and feel like they're in a safe environment to be able to do that.

[00:47:38] Pia: I think that's a just such. A wonderful ending actually, and something that we can all really aim for. And, uh, and I think, yeah, you've just, you've just hit it right on the mark, Beck. That that's what we should be aiming for. And I think what you've also reassured us is it's not a perfect journey. So you know, we're, we're on that journey, but you've really stepped out some, some really clear things that I think all our listeners can, can ponder on and think about how they can apply.

[00:48:08] So a massive thank you to you both 'cause I think it's been a, a really rich conversation and, um, and I think we'll create a lot of assurance and lots of innovative ideas for, for our listeners. So big thanks and keep up the great work with you and all your wonderful teams at Bridge. 

[00:48:28] Lee: Thanks Pia and Dan. Really appreciate it.

[00:48:30] Rebecca: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for having us. 

[00:48:36] Pia: I think what's, both poignant and relatable to Beck and Lee's story and their case study is that they've recognized that external circumstances and stresses, you can't get rid of them. You know, they, they have a very tangible thing, which is homelessness. Won't go away. It's there. And therefore, how do you support your teams, your organization, in spite of those external circumstances?

[00:49:08] And how that really, I think that really resonated for me is I, I think if we stop, stop for a moment and look at our own organizations that we're in, there are external circumstances that just will not change and we are privy to things that are happening in the economy or at home or in our own personal lives, or just the workplace environment, there's lots happening. And this is, this is, this is something to not get rid of it, but to help things feel more supported and your people feel more supported in that environment.

[00:49:43] Dan: I, I, the one I, I'm gonna, I'd like to sort of draw on there is Yes, definitely Beck and Lee have this specific sort of extra, the sort of, the skin of their organization is inherently unsafe, um, so they've got a particular challenge, but, uh, you know, the teams I'm working with, they're sort of being made unsafe by, the pressure to be unsafe is coming from inside the organization as well. You know, it's the pressure that is being heaped on them from the top now. And this is, I think people are feeling this. It's very easy to let that seep in. And in a way it's a question of just recognizing that, as you say, but creating the boundary that you can say, right, we're gonna be, this is how we are gonna be in here, whatever is out there. But it's worth recognizing 'cause it can, it's trying to seep in. At all times. 

[00:50:26] Pia: And you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. So I thought the fact that they, they seek high wellbeing and they also seek high performance, and they're really clear that for some people that is not going to work. That may not be their place, but that, that you really are like your, your, you know. The aim is to support you, and the aim is to deliver that, that they're a, even, they're a not-for-profit. They're a, they're a business organization and they have to deliver to thousands of people who would otherwise be homeless. So it's a, it's, it's a really key thing. And that takes courage to 

[00:51:04] Dan: it does hold. those intention. Absolutely, absolutely. And I do think also people are most happy when they're part of a successful team, not just a, you know, a team that sits there being happy. Do you know what I mean? So I think that's when you also get higher levels of engagement and, um, yeah, I, I think that was such a smart thing.

[00:51:22] The other thing that popped out for me, I thought was such a practical tip, and I know when we talk to people who really know what they're doing, like Lee and Beck, they do this when they're setting out their values, they describe what the behaviors are that that means. I always think about, um, having a conversation with someone in a values workshop where they said, ah, integrity, that's gotta be one. That's definitely one, because that means never over promising. And I thought, well, that's not, that's not what I see. Integrity. That's literally not what I see integrity as. And so, you know, really naming those values and um, but then describing what behaviors you expect to see means that it's specific, but also means you can see whether it's happening or not and give feedback. So I thought that was a really practical thing. And they've got such a great, they've done such a great job of really setting out their stall on that side of things.

[00:52:07] Pia: And the final bit. me, we, us. You know, they mentioned that. So that, that's the, the frame of reference, those three contexts. Me as an individual, we as a team, and us as an organization. And I think that's a really neat way to, to plan this. You know, the, the psychosocial hazards doesn't expect you to have a risk, risk-free environment, but it expects you to be proactive to have thought about this. So that frame of reference around what can I, we do for that individuals have wellbeing, the team has a mechanism for being able to share what's working, what's not working, and create that, that psychological safety and us as a whole organization. Um, and I think that's a great takeaway for, for organizations really starting to think deeply about this.

[00:52:58] Dan: Yeah, I think it's an absolute ker to, to really extract. And there's some really, some really juicy stuff for people to take away here. As many, many teams are working on this subject right now. And, uh, as we said at the top of the show, if you wanna hear more of Beck and Lee, the links to the webinar are in the show notes.

[00:53:16] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes on squadify.net under Resources as just said. If you are, if you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:53:38] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.