WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.049 --> 00:00:09.039 Raphaël: Hey friends and welcome to the Small Tech Podcast. 00:00:09.129 --> 00:00:11.889 I'm your host Raph from Éphémère Creative. 00:00:11.889 --> 00:00:17.109 And today we are going to be talking about development environments. 00:00:17.919 --> 00:00:20.379 So before I keep going. 00:00:20.649 --> 00:00:23.679 I'm going to specify that I do not mean. 00:00:23.979 --> 00:00:30.279 Sort of dependency management, package management tools tied to a specific 00:00:31.179 --> 00:00:39.659 programming language or environment, um, and for the non-technical among you. 00:00:40.289 --> 00:00:41.189 Essentially. 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:45.179 Well, we'll, we'll go into the why uh, I think that'll, 00:00:45.209 --> 00:00:46.469 that'll clarify some things. 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:51.809 So why are we talking about, uh, Development environments 00:00:51.809 --> 00:00:53.369 and tools to manage them. 00:00:53.849 --> 00:00:55.289 Uh, because. 00:00:56.159 --> 00:01:00.539 While a lot of work is complicated and depends on a lot 00:01:00.539 --> 00:01:02.939 of tools and it can get messy. 00:01:03.569 --> 00:01:07.649 I have found personally that development environments are among 00:01:07.679 --> 00:01:13.859 the messiest most complicated types of environments to deal with, um, 00:01:14.009 --> 00:01:15.959 at least in sort of knowledge work. 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:17.159 So. 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:22.969 To fix the problems that come with that messiness. 00:01:23.469 --> 00:01:28.089 I think there's, there are a lot of really useful tools that you can use 00:01:28.089 --> 00:01:30.069 to manage development environments. 00:01:30.569 --> 00:01:34.409 And I think they're very, very worth exploring. 00:01:34.909 --> 00:01:38.269 Um, so why do we use these specialized tools? 00:01:38.569 --> 00:01:40.729 Essentially you want to have consistency. 00:01:41.449 --> 00:01:47.149 Developers often need to install different types of databases or 00:01:47.329 --> 00:01:53.869 libraries and tools and services and all kinds of stuff, uh, that they need. 00:01:54.229 --> 00:01:58.039 To do their work to build your software product. 00:01:58.539 --> 00:02:04.239 And sometimes they'll install a command line tool and another developer will need 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:05.979 to install that same command line tool. 00:02:05.979 --> 00:02:09.459 If they want to do the same kind of work or get the same. 00:02:09.959 --> 00:02:13.199 Software up and running on their machine so they can collaborate 00:02:13.409 --> 00:02:17.339 or they might need to install a database and they need to make sure 00:02:17.339 --> 00:02:18.689 that they're on the same version. 00:02:19.349 --> 00:02:21.659 And they might need to install. 00:02:21.659 --> 00:02:22.919 I don't know something else. 00:02:23.129 --> 00:02:26.849 Maybe they need to run some scripts before they get up and running. 00:02:26.849 --> 00:02:31.589 So you'll write some software to make sure that your software 00:02:31.649 --> 00:02:33.269 is ready to start building. 00:02:33.899 --> 00:02:39.059 Um, and all of those things get really messy if you don't have a nice way. 00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:45.029 To get them playing together correctly, especially when different 00:02:45.029 --> 00:02:46.649 developers have different machines. 00:02:46.679 --> 00:02:49.859 And as a, as a company, you could start. 00:02:50.309 --> 00:02:56.189 Uh, sort of mandating a very specific machine and, and controlling how 00:02:56.219 --> 00:02:57.689 your machines are provisioned. 00:02:58.469 --> 00:03:02.489 Um, as a smaller company, that's kind of hard to deal with. 00:03:02.519 --> 00:03:06.569 You might not have an it team that deals with that sort of thing. 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:08.009 And developers are kind of picky. 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:09.989 They kind of want their own, their own thing. 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:11.609 Uh, they have their own way of working. 00:03:11.609 --> 00:03:18.209 Of course they have to conform to some extent to your process as a team, but 00:03:18.209 --> 00:03:21.809 they're going to have little things that they, that they like to do differently. 00:03:21.899 --> 00:03:25.379 Uh, not in the code, but in how they work. 00:03:25.949 --> 00:03:28.499 Um, All of those things. 00:03:29.369 --> 00:03:34.139 Basically can get really hard to manage unless you have tools to make sure that 00:03:34.139 --> 00:03:36.539 certain things always happen the same way. 00:03:37.469 --> 00:03:41.039 Um, The, so, yeah, consistency. 00:03:41.069 --> 00:03:44.039 You want to make sure that everything happens the same way and the reason 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:48.839 you want to do that a is just because you don't want people wasting a 00:03:48.839 --> 00:03:52.439 lot of time fiddling around with, well, oh, what version of that 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:53.819 command line tool did you say? 00:03:53.849 --> 00:03:57.419 Oh, but like, I actually upgraded the database. 00:03:57.419 --> 00:03:59.969 And so you're going to need to do that on yours. 00:03:59.969 --> 00:04:02.999 Otherwise the new code isn't going to, like, you don't want to waste 00:04:03.029 --> 00:04:04.109 time with that sort of thing. 00:04:04.799 --> 00:04:09.269 Um, The other thing that I find particularly useful about. 00:04:09.769 --> 00:04:13.189 Using tools to manage development environments. 00:04:13.609 --> 00:04:14.779 Is onboarding speed. 00:04:15.229 --> 00:04:18.859 So if you have a lot of steps that someone needs to take. 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:24.709 To get a part of your application or your whole application up and running. 00:04:25.339 --> 00:04:29.629 Then, if you can automate all of that by managing their development 00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:32.599 environment, then you can get them working a lot faster. 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:34.819 There's usually one way or another. 00:04:34.819 --> 00:04:37.279 There's always going to be time spent. 00:04:37.609 --> 00:04:41.689 For a developer to get up and running with your project. 00:04:42.109 --> 00:04:46.429 Uh, they don't know how your software is architected and they're going 00:04:46.429 --> 00:04:47.869 to need to poke around at that. 00:04:47.869 --> 00:04:50.809 And they're going to read documentation and they're going 00:04:50.809 --> 00:04:52.849 to want to read through the code. 00:04:53.239 --> 00:04:55.069 And they're going to want to just mess around with it. 00:04:55.069 --> 00:04:58.369 So they get a sense of like how it works and how it feels. 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:03.049 Um, but you can get them to that point a lot faster. 00:05:03.769 --> 00:05:08.779 If you have scripts and environments that are consistent and just run. 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:11.929 Uh, before they, yeah. 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.019 Before they, even before they have to do anything. 00:05:15.559 --> 00:05:18.019 Um, So, yeah, that's another thing. 00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:18.919 Onboarding speed. 00:05:19.309 --> 00:05:22.909 Um, the other thing that I found particularly neat with, uh, 00:05:22.939 --> 00:05:25.789 with some of the tools that, uh, I'm going to talk about. 00:05:26.269 --> 00:05:27.049 Is. 00:05:27.709 --> 00:05:31.459 You can treat development environments as ephemeral when 00:05:31.459 --> 00:05:32.899 you use these types of tools. 00:05:33.229 --> 00:05:36.979 And so you can let your developers kind of go wild. 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:42.859 And they can break things and they can completely destroy their environment 00:05:42.859 --> 00:05:46.909 as they're experimenting to try and do something new or interesting. 00:05:47.629 --> 00:05:52.429 And it doesn't matter because you can just turn it all down and turn 00:05:52.429 --> 00:05:54.439 it all off and spin up a new one. 00:05:54.469 --> 00:05:55.759 And there you go. 00:05:55.789 --> 00:05:56.779 You're up and running again. 00:05:57.499 --> 00:06:02.599 Um, we'll talk about how that specifically works, but, uh, yeah. 00:06:03.499 --> 00:06:04.609 So the. 00:06:05.109 --> 00:06:06.549 So those are the pros. 00:06:06.549 --> 00:06:11.169 Those are the reasons I like to use these types of, uh, tools. 00:06:11.829 --> 00:06:16.119 Um, But there are reasons why you might want to not use them. 00:06:16.569 --> 00:06:18.999 Um, One is cost. 00:06:19.389 --> 00:06:25.089 So if you have a developer running something on a machine, 00:06:25.089 --> 00:06:27.759 that's kind of a one-time cost. 00:06:28.029 --> 00:06:29.229 It depends how you frame it. 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:32.019 But that machine you pay for it. 00:06:32.049 --> 00:06:32.619 You run it. 00:06:32.649 --> 00:06:33.249 You're good. 00:06:33.749 --> 00:06:37.949 And that developer can do things to that machine and they'll run things on that 00:06:37.949 --> 00:06:40.949 machine and it doesn't change your cost. 00:06:41.549 --> 00:06:43.829 With some of the tools that we're going to talk about. 00:06:44.159 --> 00:06:48.779 You actually have the cost of a developer's machine, but you also 00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:53.549 have the cost of maintaining those developer environments because some 00:06:53.549 --> 00:06:55.739 of these solutions are cloud-based. 00:06:56.339 --> 00:07:01.739 So there's a cost to running the actual machines on in the, in the, 00:07:01.769 --> 00:07:05.339 in the data centers that power your development environments. 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:08.039 So that's, that's one downside. 00:07:08.069 --> 00:07:11.519 The other downside is on some level of complexity, right? 00:07:12.019 --> 00:07:15.469 With simpler projects one way or another. 00:07:15.559 --> 00:07:20.359 If you're building an environment for someone to work in. 00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:25.969 Um, the simpler projects won't have that much additional complexity, 00:07:25.969 --> 00:07:27.229 but they might have a bit. 00:07:27.859 --> 00:07:30.409 Um, a bit more than if you just tell the developer here's the 00:07:30.409 --> 00:07:32.179 code, just go run it yourself. 00:07:32.689 --> 00:07:38.629 Um, And, you know, getting them up and, and up to speed with, with a new tool is 00:07:38.629 --> 00:07:42.409 just an additional layer of complexity that you wouldn't have normally. 00:07:43.219 --> 00:07:49.059 Um, There's also a certain amount of, I mean, there's this whole field 00:07:49.119 --> 00:07:51.219 that has developed over the past. 00:07:51.219 --> 00:07:54.819 However, I don't know, decade that we refer to as dev ops, 00:07:54.819 --> 00:07:57.399 which is building tooling. 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:01.149 Uh, some of it purchased tooling. 00:08:01.149 --> 00:08:03.729 Some of it is, uh, internal tooling. 00:08:04.209 --> 00:08:11.229 To help improve the flow with which, uh, developers release their, their. 00:08:11.559 --> 00:08:12.339 Their work. 00:08:12.849 --> 00:08:14.799 Um, And. 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:17.409 There's complexity that comes with that. 00:08:17.469 --> 00:08:20.499 When you're building development environments, you're, you're 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:22.059 customizing those scripts. 00:08:22.059 --> 00:08:25.119 You're saying, yep, we're going to write all of this additional software. 00:08:25.599 --> 00:08:28.479 To make sure that when a developer gets up and running. 00:08:28.989 --> 00:08:30.819 They have everything they need. 00:08:31.419 --> 00:08:37.239 To work quickly and efficiently, and you might also be building tools to help them 00:08:37.239 --> 00:08:42.849 manage their software and package their software and release their software. 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:46.389 Um, And that's a lot of overhead. 00:08:46.889 --> 00:08:50.369 Depending on the scale of the project that becomes very useful. 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:50.759 Right? 00:08:50.789 --> 00:08:56.339 So if it takes one developer a lot of time to do those things manually. 00:08:56.909 --> 00:09:01.679 Well, you might as well build software to automate it or to help simplify it. 00:09:02.069 --> 00:09:05.669 Uh, there's also with all of that, I feel like I'm going off on a 00:09:05.669 --> 00:09:07.979 tangent, but there's consistency. 00:09:08.489 --> 00:09:10.979 Uh, if a developer has to do everything manually. 00:09:11.579 --> 00:09:14.909 And perhaps they have to tweak the process. 00:09:15.389 --> 00:09:19.859 Then that lives in their head and the other developers don't know about it. 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:23.909 Uh, and so now you've got a problem where if one developer's not available 00:09:23.909 --> 00:09:28.979 and you can't reproduce the work that they've done to either release 00:09:28.979 --> 00:09:30.509 something or get it up and running. 00:09:30.989 --> 00:09:31.889 You've got a problem. 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:39.329 So if it's all encoded as software, Um, Whether it's development environments 00:09:39.329 --> 00:09:43.889 or releases or whatever, then you know that you can always keep going. 00:09:43.889 --> 00:09:46.829 You can always keep working, you can keep releasing your product. 00:09:47.099 --> 00:09:48.389 So that's the. 00:09:48.989 --> 00:09:49.979 That's why? 00:09:50.069 --> 00:09:53.939 Uh, yeah, that's another reason why it's it's worth it. 00:09:54.929 --> 00:09:56.969 For a given complexity level. 00:09:57.469 --> 00:09:59.259 Um, In my opinion. 00:09:59.619 --> 00:10:02.939 Um, So what are the different tools that you can use? 00:10:03.439 --> 00:10:04.699 We have used. 00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:09.289 Two different tools, uh, and we're aware of two others. 00:10:09.739 --> 00:10:19.309 Um, so I have specifically used, uh, and set us up on, on a tool called Coder, 00:10:19.489 --> 00:10:22.159 which I think is absolutely fantastic. 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:25.279 Um, it is, it is really, really good. 00:10:25.969 --> 00:10:28.609 Uh, and basically it helps you. 00:10:29.149 --> 00:10:33.049 Provision environments you use, uh, for again, for those 00:10:33.259 --> 00:10:34.609 of you who are not technical. 00:10:34.909 --> 00:10:42.889 Uh, Docker is a developer tool that allows you to define what we call containers. 00:10:43.429 --> 00:10:45.229 And containers. 00:10:45.729 --> 00:10:50.019 Are there not like they're not virtual machines. 00:10:50.769 --> 00:10:54.879 On some level, you can kind of pretend that they're a little isolated. 00:10:55.299 --> 00:10:58.719 Workspaces that feel a little bit like a virtual machine. 00:10:58.719 --> 00:11:01.269 So it's like running little mini containers. 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.229 Uh, many, many machines, many computers inside your computer, 00:11:05.259 --> 00:11:07.089 but it's, it's really not. 00:11:07.719 --> 00:11:09.879 Um, but it can feel like that. 00:11:10.299 --> 00:11:15.399 And so if you specify what is supposed to run in one of those containers, 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.249 you can say, you know, install this command line tool, install this 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:20.499 database, this other thing, whatever. 00:11:21.069 --> 00:11:27.029 Um, And a Coder lets you specify a developer's work environment that way. 00:11:27.779 --> 00:11:31.379 And so it will run that work environment. 00:11:32.099 --> 00:11:35.909 Uh, in a variety of different places. 00:11:35.969 --> 00:11:39.119 Uh, I think they're actually changing their spec as well. 00:11:39.119 --> 00:11:43.109 So I'm not sure you have to define things as, uh, as 00:11:43.589 --> 00:11:46.229 containers, uh, as Docker files. 00:11:46.379 --> 00:11:46.859 Um, 00:11:47.359 --> 00:11:50.479 And because I saw that the latest version allows you to spin up a virtual 00:11:50.479 --> 00:11:52.579 machine on your cloud of choice. 00:11:52.969 --> 00:11:59.119 Uh, or you can run it on a Kubernetes cluster, which is, again, for those 00:11:59.119 --> 00:12:04.489 of you who are not super technical is a technology that allows you to run 00:12:04.489 --> 00:12:07.789 workloads across, across machines. 00:12:08.479 --> 00:12:10.489 Uh, that's the simplest way of saying it. 00:12:11.119 --> 00:12:15.409 Uh, and, and they offer other deployment targets as well. 00:12:15.739 --> 00:12:19.579 Um, so they're kind of interesting in, in that way and that they're, they 00:12:19.609 --> 00:12:21.259 can target different environments. 00:12:21.619 --> 00:12:27.229 Um, you can specify what the developer environment looks like 00:12:27.229 --> 00:12:30.289 as a Docker file, but I think there might be other ways to do it now. 00:12:30.859 --> 00:12:31.459 Um, 00:12:31.969 --> 00:12:36.919 And yeah, because of their structure, you can also define the resources 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:38.659 that you want to allocate to a given. 00:12:38.779 --> 00:12:39.679 Uh, environment. 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:41.029 So you might be able to say, yep. 00:12:41.419 --> 00:12:45.769 Uh, this developer, uh, environment should use. 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:46.789 I don't know. 00:12:46.849 --> 00:12:50.119 Uh, eight VCPU and 32 gigs of Ram. 00:12:50.119 --> 00:12:54.439 Whereas this other one only needs two VCPUs and four gigs 00:12:54.439 --> 00:12:56.299 of Ram, something like that. 00:12:56.689 --> 00:12:59.869 Um, really neat tool, a good chunk of it is open source. 00:13:00.379 --> 00:13:05.749 And the reason we stopped using it is because you have to run it yourself. 00:13:06.409 --> 00:13:11.419 And there's some overhead there that, uh, we just didn't feel ready 00:13:11.419 --> 00:13:13.609 to take on, especially because. 00:13:14.419 --> 00:13:19.579 For a small company, you also have to run the servers on which 00:13:19.609 --> 00:13:22.549 the development environment, the developer environments run. 00:13:23.239 --> 00:13:24.559 And those can be quite costly. 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:29.359 Um, so yeah, it didn't, it didn't make sense for us. 00:13:29.809 --> 00:13:36.079 Um, especially when there was a tool like the next one called GitPod uh, 00:13:36.079 --> 00:13:41.149 which they have a hosted version where they run the infrastructure. 00:13:41.329 --> 00:13:43.489 You just pay them to use it. 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:49.039 Uh, and so they can distribute the cost among their users. 00:13:49.549 --> 00:13:53.719 And that makes it cheaper to run and you don't have to run the infrastructure 00:13:53.719 --> 00:13:57.919 yourself, which also, uh, is a benefit. 00:13:57.949 --> 00:14:01.759 If you are a tiny company and you don't have the bandwidth to be 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:03.859 running yet, another set of servers. 00:14:04.459 --> 00:14:09.619 So that's yeah, that's uhh that's what's nice about GitPod Other than 00:14:09.619 --> 00:14:11.569 that they function very similarly. 00:14:11.659 --> 00:14:15.079 You define your development environments as. 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:19.129 As Docker files and they run as containers. 00:14:19.789 --> 00:14:25.089 Um, They do not have the other advantages that Coder has, where 00:14:25.089 --> 00:14:27.249 it can spin up virtual machines. 00:14:27.939 --> 00:14:30.009 And, uh, yeah. 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.689 That means that you're also, you're kind of stuck with, uh, well, yeah, 00:14:34.749 --> 00:14:36.279 you're stuck with their infrastructure. 00:14:36.579 --> 00:14:39.759 And they only define two sizes of machines. 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.329 I believe that's a four. 00:14:43.829 --> 00:14:44.279 Hm. 00:14:44.579 --> 00:14:46.559 I might have this wrong, so don't quote me on it. 00:14:46.709 --> 00:14:49.499 I think it's for vCPUs and. 00:14:50.129 --> 00:14:51.359 Uh, like. 00:14:51.859 --> 00:14:55.249 Eight gigs of Ram or two VCPUs and eight gigs of Ram and 00:14:55.249 --> 00:14:57.319 four vCPUs and 16 gigs of Ram. 00:14:57.559 --> 00:14:58.519 Something like that. 00:14:58.729 --> 00:15:02.509 Uh, so they're not huge, huge development environments develop, uh, yeah. 00:15:02.539 --> 00:15:03.559 Development environments. 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.939 Uh, so if you do have something very heavy that you want to run and build 00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:11.059 a, you might want to look elsewhere. 00:15:11.269 --> 00:15:16.489 If not, it's a very, very easy way to get started building in 00:15:16.489 --> 00:15:19.609 the cloud and having consistent environments among your developers. 00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:22.819 And the other one that I have not tried yet. 00:15:23.449 --> 00:15:27.919 Is, uh, is, uh, Docker's dev environments. 00:15:28.099 --> 00:15:29.059 So Docker. 00:15:29.569 --> 00:15:34.759 Uh, I mentioned earlier, the Docker is used by coder and GitPod to define what 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:37.099 the development environments run as. 00:15:37.099 --> 00:15:37.339 Right. 00:15:37.339 --> 00:15:41.359 So they manage the infrastructure to get that up and running. 00:15:41.989 --> 00:15:46.099 And how you spend those up and how you manage resources among developers. 00:15:46.729 --> 00:15:50.929 But the environment itself is defined as a Docker file. 00:15:50.989 --> 00:15:57.289 So you can spin up these Docker based or Docker file defined environments across. 00:15:57.829 --> 00:16:02.989 Uh, across machines with coder or GitPod recently? 00:16:03.019 --> 00:16:08.629 Well, relatively recently, I think in the past year, Uh, Docker has started to 00:16:08.629 --> 00:16:14.029 build out its own way of doing that, but it happens on the developers machine. 00:16:14.509 --> 00:16:18.889 So you define the environment with a Docker file, but the 00:16:18.889 --> 00:16:20.839 developer runs it on their machine. 00:16:21.769 --> 00:16:26.839 Now there are some benefits to this and that you do not have any additional costs. 00:16:27.499 --> 00:16:31.579 But there are some disadvantages too, in that there's still 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:33.769 some complexity to manage. 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:36.949 If you have developers with different types of machines. 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:42.019 Um, with the cloud environments, you can guarantee a certain level of consistency. 00:16:42.199 --> 00:16:45.349 Uh, across the machines that the developers are actually running 00:16:45.349 --> 00:16:46.969 their, their environments on. 00:16:47.509 --> 00:16:52.819 Um, if you're telling them to run it locally on their own hardware, then 00:16:52.819 --> 00:16:57.319 you are stuck with whatever hardware they've got, unless you have the 00:16:57.319 --> 00:17:01.999 resources to provision that hardware and make sure that it is all consistent. 00:17:02.659 --> 00:17:08.539 Um, so yeah, that's a, that's another one to think about, uh, No, I haven't used it 00:17:08.539 --> 00:17:10.819 yet, so I don't know how well it works. 00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:13.639 I assume well, Uh, 00:17:13.669 --> 00:17:17.979 and finally the last one is, uh, Nix. 00:17:18.569 --> 00:17:20.959 Nix is not something I have. 00:17:21.469 --> 00:17:23.449 Uh, tried at all. 00:17:24.019 --> 00:17:27.259 And it's not something I know well, but I've heard a couple 00:17:27.289 --> 00:17:29.269 people talk about it recently. 00:17:29.569 --> 00:17:34.819 My understanding of it is it is actually more of a package manager. 00:17:35.329 --> 00:17:39.139 Than a development environment. 00:17:39.639 --> 00:17:42.579 Like a tool to manage development environments, but they also 00:17:42.579 --> 00:17:44.829 offer their own operating system. 00:17:45.399 --> 00:17:50.929 Um, and I think in tandem being able to run their own Os 00:17:50.979 --> 00:17:55.359 with their package manager and their tooling to manage Docker. 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:57.639 Uh, containers. 00:17:58.269 --> 00:18:02.109 Uh, I think they functionally give you something very, very similar. 00:18:02.289 --> 00:18:03.849 Um, yeah. 00:18:03.879 --> 00:18:08.489 I still feel a little bit confused about Nix 00:18:08.889 --> 00:18:13.029 uh, but I figured I'd throw it in there in case any of you listeners 00:18:13.059 --> 00:18:16.569 are interested in this stuff and are looking to explore it. 00:18:16.929 --> 00:18:22.689 Um, I would love to hear what you all use because making sure like running 00:18:22.689 --> 00:18:26.709 into that problem of, well, it runs on my machine, but it doesn't run on mine. 00:18:27.009 --> 00:18:30.879 Um, is such a pain and it's so annoying and it can cause so many 00:18:30.879 --> 00:18:33.339 problems and slow, so many things down. 00:18:33.789 --> 00:18:36.129 Uh, so I would love to hear what you all are using. 00:18:36.219 --> 00:18:38.289 Uh, have you tried coder or get pod? 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.829 Uh, what about Docker dev environments or Nix. 00:18:41.109 --> 00:18:42.249 Uh, maybe there's other ones. 00:18:42.249 --> 00:18:45.999 I know there's code anywhere, but they're more limited. 00:18:46.419 --> 00:18:48.219 Uh, Replit and others. 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.849 Uh, I feel my instinct is they're more like toys. 00:18:51.879 --> 00:18:56.949 They're less, they feel less like places to work as a team. 00:18:57.489 --> 00:18:58.869 Uh, but maybe not. 00:18:59.679 --> 00:19:05.289 Uh, oh, I will add one last thing about GitPod one thing that I quite like about 00:19:05.289 --> 00:19:12.309 them is that they treat their development environments as ephemeral so they, you are 00:19:12.309 --> 00:19:15.129 encouraged through their user experience. 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:19.629 To treat them as things that you just toss out. 00:19:19.689 --> 00:19:24.669 So you get some work done on a feature and then you get rid of the environment. 00:19:24.909 --> 00:19:29.739 Uh, and the idea is you should be able to just provision environments, quickly 00:19:29.739 --> 00:19:31.359 work on some stuff, throw it out. 00:19:31.539 --> 00:19:35.529 And in a sense that kind of forces you to make sure that the tooling is 00:19:35.529 --> 00:19:39.879 ready for the next environment to be provisioned nicely, which means it should 00:19:39.879 --> 00:19:41.829 work for every developer on the team. 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.329 But yeah, let me know what you all use. 00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:49.139 I would love to hear more and, uh, yeah . If you want to hear more about this 00:19:49.139 --> 00:19:54.719 stuff, make sure to subscribe and we all want to do something good in the world. 00:19:54.719 --> 00:19:57.719 So go out there and build something. 00:19:57.719 --> 00:19:58.889 Good friends. 00:19:59.279 --> 00:19:59.849 See ya.