[00:00:05] Welcome to muckrAIkers where normally we dig through the latest happenings around so-called ai. In each episode, we normally highlight recent events, contextualized the most important ones, and try to separate muck from meaning normally. Our host is Jacob Haimes, who is not me, and I am the co-host Igor Krawczuk.

[00:00:23] Igor Krawczuk: However, we don't live in normal times right now. And as of time of recording ice has killed two people in one week, I believe.

[00:00:34] So the first killing was that Renee. Good.

[00:00:37] Jacob Haimes: That was on January 6th or eighth, I think.

[00:00:41] Igor Krawczuk: okay, so then it's uh, two people in two weeks.

[00:00:43] And then the second one was Alex. Was Alex Preti.

[00:00:48] Jacob Haimes: Yeah.

[00:00:49] Igor Krawczuk: And both these were in, uh, Minnesota in, uh, like the ongoing ice, uh, rollout there and other stuff has also just like piled up. We had like, uh, the Maduro kidnapping, we had the Greenland debacle, which as the only positive note, uh, helped, uh, the mother of my, uh, like a close person of mine to get a good deal on some ETFs as she finally moved her like nest egg into, uh, ETFs.

[00:01:19] So there's like a very morbid silver lining, uh, but shit's difficult. And I know how you would like to, uh, like frame it Jacob, but like you had kind of like troubles motivating or like get collecting things for us to sit down and talk about the AI bullshit this week. Is that correct to say?

[00:01:41] Jacob Haimes: Yeah, so I, I guess like the difficulty, is, and it is mainly, I think just like second guessing myself. Um, but given that we're seeing, you know, fascism progressing, , as we are. In the United States. Um, and, and then also, you know, the, all of the other things that are, um, around the world, is it really worthwhile, impactful, to be spending time on this sort of thing? Um, like that we talked about with muck breakers, like calling out, uh, the bullshit in ai, I is it, I mean, obviously it, it's, it's better than doing nothing, if you were to compare that to, potentially other things, uh, that could be being done, like is that a good trade off? and yeah, I guess that's, that's sort of the. That's, that's sort of the, the starting point at least,

[00:02:38] Igor Krawczuk: Yeah. And uh, it's not that you don't see any value in what we normally discuss, right?

[00:02:44] Jacob Haimes: right? Yeah. so there, there is a lot of value in, I think out, how, like sort of the, the big tech grift and the, the narratives around AI they are supporting and, in some cases like the, the reason for, um, the kind of authoritarianism, uh, and fascism that we're seeing. and, and so. Shining a light on facade and trying to bring it down, make it more apparent what's actually happening, is, is very much worthwhile. and, and I think is, is like a positive thing. And yeah, I mean, you, uh, showed me, uh, a recent, I don't know when it was published, but like a recent, post, uh, not post, but like website, uh, that was put up called the Authoritarian Stack. and that actually, like I would say is evidence that doing this is, is. Is very much worthwhile. Um, and like pushes me, more towards the direction of, like, let's keep going, let's, let's double down on, on really trying to expose, um, happening in this space. 

[00:03:57] Igor Krawczuk: Yeah, should we go through it and kinda like auto describe, we'll link it in the show notes as well, but like if you were to like summarize for this, like what a page does.

[00:04:06] Jacob Haimes: Yeah. So, essentially there are a, a couple individuals, um, so like Peter Thiel obviously, mark Andreessen, Elon Musk, JD Vance, um, who is funded by. Those individuals, uh, and has, you know, strong connections to them as well as some other people in that space and the companies that they own and, and have worked for and, and worked through. it maps out the connections that these individuals have, and it makes it much more explicit than, uh, I've seen in the past much the US has turned over to these individuals and what their vision is, how they're aiding the us, uh, and also now other countries in Europe. so really, I mean, it's, it's a bad idea from a, um. Risk management standpoint to put all of your contracts into a single, individual, company. And yet, you know, that sort of consolidation is, is exactly what the US government has been doing recently with its military, uh, and other contractors.

[00:05:23] Igor Krawczuk: Specifically for the intelligence part, like, uh, there's like, uh, the headline on the po uh, page is a $10 billion contract with Palantir that according to the website, uh, consolidated 75 procurement agreements into a single contract. Which if you're trying to keep up a ecosystem of competing firms artificially, which is like the way normal military do this, even the Soviets did this like, 'cause naturally in a given country, there's only gonna be one customer for military intelligence.

[00:05:56] Unless the country is going very badly. so then like, normally there's like an artificial competition, but this is the exact opposite, uh, of this.

[00:06:04] Jacob Haimes: Yeah, so it just very, very clearly exposes not only that, but also how, that connects to the players, um, that connects to. Funding that is from US citizens, right. You know, we're paying for these companies to come in and start instituting, uh, surveillance states, automated warfare. and I mean, I, I'm bothered by that. I don't think that's a good thing. so it just clearly lays that out, um, in like a, an accessible way, I would say, and provides, you know, additional resources to, to look into as well. And so I think that's like a very good starting point here if you're wanting to, to learn more About these sorts of things and, and. How Palantir and associated groups are infiltrating other countries in Europe now as well.

[00:07:03] Igor Krawczuk: And connecting this to like our podcast and like the AI mark, like, like we are doing something like this, right? Like even if we, like you have done some very high effort blog posts, um, uh, which are not like part of muckrAIkers but like, uh, your other work does this, but our podcast usually isn't like this level of quality, even though we would like to right.

[00:07:23] Jacob Haimes: yeah, yeah, that's definitely accurate. I think that we good, um, lists of links, uh, as starting sources for the topics that we talk about. But, nowhere near this level of, purposefulness, I guess. just, I mean just 'cause it would take a lot of time we're, we both have full-time jobs. 

[00:07:44] Igor Krawczuk: But, uh, but I think it's like, at least like for me, and like, I would like to get like comments from like what audience we have, uh, like what value they get, uh, from this stuff. Um, but I do think there's, there's like value in doing this sort of curation. Uh, uh, because like not everybody knows this stuff.

[00:08:01] You didn't know this website, uh, before, so I'm not, I like signal boosted it to you. And like, now this episode is like partially. Aim that letting people know that they're not the only ones who feel a bit like overwhelmed and, uh, adrift, but also partially to like signal boost this really good resource.

[00:08:19] Because like I'm looking at like the uh, end of the top third where it says like, the pipeline made visible and very much like spells out very clearly how like the Thiel Playbook works.

[00:08:32] Jacob Haimes: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:33] Igor Krawczuk: And if you allow me to like go on a very brief rant, uh, to just explain it, is that Peter Thiel has been, uh, doing a remix of what the Koch brothers used to do, which we'll put a link into the show notes.

[00:08:47] The Koch brothers are like oil billionaires. If you were an activist like 20 years ago, you definitely know them, but if you're like younger, you might not be aware that they exist. if you think of like shadowy elites controlling politics, uh, like from behind, like the Koch brothers are like. The closest we have in reality to that.

[00:09:04] and they have been one of the main pillars of what got Trump elected, like over like the decades of cultural engineering. Like they were part of the drive of central centralizing local media into these like large, like state media networks. They helped get people like Ben Shapiro and uh, Charlie Kirk and uh, Nick Fuentes and that ilk off the ground.

[00:09:31] They funded like race scientists and they did this like in, at the time innovative way of astroturfing, so like selectively funding scientists and discourse to shape the conversation. Imp Peter innovated on that in that he funds startups that try to build communities as a like marketing tool or like in general, he funds communities.

[00:09:55] And when these communities inevitably fail because they're pushing hardcore libertarian, uh, ideas. And there's a wonderful book that I can cite as proof what happens if you have libertarian ideas, uh, take over city. And that is you get bear attacks. And we will go into this in a site maybe. But, the reason why it's a good idea to do this as a libertarian is that every time one of these groups fails groups like see status that want to build like a floating city on a cruise ship to, you know, like get rid of all of the taxes and the man doing all of the regulations because that's bad.

[00:10:36] Even if they fail, they have like created like a new group of like very radicalized young people who have like invested a lot of identity. In this idea of ultra libertarianism, uh, market everything, prioritize everything. And then these people keep being in this network that Teal and other people who are documented on this website, fund.

[00:11:02] And then in this pipeline that basically comes through that, like on top of this, there's also part of the funding doesn't come from teal, but from like state contracts that explore new ways of doing things as part of like their mission of being a bit more open-minded. And then from that they get more, more propaganda going against a functioning state.

[00:11:25] And the connection to AI is also made clear on this side. Maybe you want to like discuss a bit, uh, how they break this down, like the five domains of, uh. Uh, sovereignty or privatized sovereignty that the, uh, the page talks about.

[00:11:41] Jacob Haimes: Before we get to that, I, I think I, I also want to just note the reason why I think this is valuable to talk about is because, and, and this is somewhat related to what you were just saying, um, but like, is because that the narratives that are being used by big tech on ai, like these aren't, um, the, the play, the, being implemented is not new, right?

[00:12:08] This is same strategy that has been used throughout human history by the people who are currently in power to attempt to, uh, entrench themselves within power, consolidate wealth within their own, um, and. Bring people to do whatever they want them to do. So it's the same pattern.

[00:12:34] Igor Krawczuk: Let's, let's, let's be more specific on this because like I would agree with you in the broad strokes, but there's also nuances on this. So like, what is the thing that you would say is the same?

[00:12:43] Jacob Haimes: well, so

[00:12:43] Igor Krawczuk: I.

[00:12:43] Jacob Haimes: the, I mean, the strategy, so move fast such with a new technology such that in general the government and the populace is not able to, um, regulate at an appropriate speed because consequences of the technologies and, and things that you're, that you're developing and, um, implementing are not clear. Necessarily, they may be clear to you to some extent, or rather to the people developing it and implementing it, or they may not. Right. I think this is true on like short and long term, um, scales, but regardless, the companies implement as fast as possible like ignoring the potential, um, negative externalities. And by doing it fast, they are able to establish themselves within the system. So once, and I, I think that, like for me, social media is a good touchstone here because social media, I mean the Mark Zuckerberg's like unofficial, you know, phrase, um, was move fast and break things. And that's still something that people. talk about today in a positive light. but move fast and break things means push out the things that don't necessarily work that we don't know the consequences of. And that's what happened with social media. Yes, there were positives from social media, but everyone that I've talked to and, you know, if, if you disagree or you know, someone who disagrees with this, like I'd love to have a, a chat with them.

[00:14:29] But literally everyone I've talked to when I bring this up agrees with the idea that yes, there were positives with social media. And overall it's probably good to have that sort of communication. However, on reflection, we probably could have done a lot better at how we rolled that out. I haven't met a single person who has disagreed with that. We could have prevented a lot of harms. I mean, are cases where, you know, social media has, resulted in genocide, Like and the

[00:15:07] Igor Krawczuk: This

[00:15:08] Jacob Haimes: and, and the horror.

[00:15:10] Igor Krawczuk: genocide be, uh, precise in in Malaysia.

[00:15:13] Jacob Haimes: Yes. and that wouldn't have happened without social media in the same way, at least. so there, there has to be a, better way. and this is. I see AI as very similar. It's, it's the new technology. It's what's hot right now, and companies want it to get implemented and taken up before it gets regulated so that they get grandfathered into acceptance if it becomes accepted that, you know, data centers are just in our backyard, all like for everyone, and we're all, you know, getting, the, like, having the negative consequences of that. So, um, you know, pollutants, things like that, um, in our water and, uh, less effective, uh, and less resilient power grid. and that's just normalized. now they get to have that as sort of part of. Part of the system and they've actually gained something there. so that is what I see as, as the same. and I, I think that's not good, guess is like the, the, the best way to put it. Like I, we need to be able to call that out to resist it. Um, another way that their behavior is the same is that they're using, you know, propaganda and control of the narrative to help perpetuate this. So, majority of the educational material about AI is either directly from. A like model developer that is well known is being funded by those model developers, and that's a problem. Academics to some extent can help address this by making things that are more accessible and that are more targeted towards everyday people. but it also, it shouldn't be on, you know, academics alone. We need to have more independent sources, uh, and resources like to educate people. and that's something that I'm trying to do with this network as well. but that's another thing that has been used before. Will be used again, right? If, if you're able to be the education resource, then you get to control the narrative. Um, and so I think that's also a major problem that's been, uh, that

[00:17:48] Igor Krawczuk: Yeah, so like, I would agree with you if we're talking about the last like 100 years or so, 'cause this has been happening in this way since, um, like oil basically, uh,

[00:18:02] Jacob Haimes: Okay.

[00:18:03] Igor Krawczuk: the oil company is new in new in the fifties, that was, was gonna cause climate change and they just like delayed that externality. And then the same thing happened with smoking.

[00:18:12] The same thing happened with, uh, effects of, uh, factory like digitization. Like there's always like a pattern where they know the harms but they downplay them and they being like, uh, individual, um, business owners because often it's not even like a malicious thing per se, it's just like, like they are not the ones affected.

[00:18:35] They don't have skin in the game. But then like the point of res and the, and the reason why we chose the name was that like journalism and the media is supposed to call it out and then the, uh, like the public is supposed to like decide are we okay with this or not? And usually they're not. And then like politics is supposed to like step in and do regulation.

[00:18:54] And where the Koch brothers have laid, like the seed fair also since Reagan basically, and it has continued, is that in America you don't really have this idea that like the state is supposed to do something, not even like the local state, like depending on the state that this is stronger and weaker, but like the overall vibe looking in from the outside as a, like German living in Switzerland, that pipeline has been cut.

[00:19:22] Jacob Haimes: And I mean, I think it's arguable to. Say that, that the, the cutting of that began around the Reagan era, uh, and began with, increased acceptance of, lobbying and, corporate control and input to, the government's processes for making regulation and, and decisions.

[00:19:46] Igor Krawczuk: There, there's, there's a lot of details there, but I think there's like broad, broadly, like directionally correct at least. but like, where I would disagree is that like, um, it has always been like, like this where like in the broader pattern there's this idea of, um, if you are not already fully entrenched in power, 'cause like Peter is not yet, but you are a scru, scrupulous, uh, or unscrupulous and like very willing to do whatever it takes type of, um, power hungry doer, then the pattern has usually been that you try to find ways to polarize, like break up existing systems and then like divide the spoils.

[00:20:28] And that's, that used to be like, uh,

[00:20:32] in the US colonies, like you get like a colony, you try to extract as much as you can out of it and you try to like. Exploit your local colonists as much as possible without oversight from the crown. And there were like multiple ways that went. And then as soon as, like, it was no longer just, uh, exploiting like their own colonists, it was also like stealing stuff from Native Americans basically.

[00:20:58] And then, uh, exploiting the environment and whoever was like the, the least scrupulous there could get ahead. And that's how we got like the, the robber barrens. And then this pattern I described, it's not that you have this like happening with technology, it's like a difference that I'm drawing, but like there was no new technology that we didn't know were externalities on.

[00:21:22] But it was like there was like a rush to get your claim so you could get ahead and then you could use that to keep getting ahead.

[00:21:31] Jacob Haimes: I mean, yeah, manifest destiny. the, that sort of ideology, is, is this pattern as well. And the, in that sense, the technology was the land. So, so maybe it's not a, a technology, uh, but a new, uh, necessarily at least, but a new resource.

[00:21:54] Igor Krawczuk: A new source of power, I would say. A new source of power. A new source of wealth.

[00:21:58] Jacob Haimes: and, and one that prior regulation, that prior structures perfectly and easily map onto.

[00:22:11] Igor Krawczuk: Exactly. And that, yeah.

[00:22:12] Jacob Haimes: if they do, I mean people will still try, but like I, I'd say it's arguable and there are actually people like that are working on this kind of thing, you know, saying, oh, well actually we can apply legal frameworks, you know, things that we've already established, things that we already have talked about, you know, we can apply those to ai. And then get the added benefit that like legal frameworks are already at least somewhat local. So ideally, people more locally have more buy-in, uh, into that legal system. Now, obviously there's still issues with that, but it's at least better than the, you know, no rules version. The, the issue is that it takes intentionality, it takes time, um, and the people who are developing the systems are doing whatever they can. To make progress and adoption happen prior to those regulations and those, uh, frameworks being, um, implemented and and

[00:23:14] Igor Krawczuk: And that then ties back to the fascist rising in the US and i I will link a thing in the show notes for people who bristle against the world Fascist, but there's like very clear definition here. And it comes partially from, uh, the or fascism definition of Umberto Echo, which we will link. And then partially from a series of video essays, uh, from the YouTube channel in Innuendo Studios.

[00:23:45] And the short version is that fascism is a political framework that basically. Has getting into power and doing stuff as a self-justifying thing where like, whatever you need to say to get into power, you will do is like the, like, like the guiding principle. There's no real lines that you won't cross.

[00:24:05] And it's also a style of politics, which is one of hysteria and of, uh, spectacle where it doesn't really matter what is true as long as things feel true. And they, they succeed in riling up support for this thing or that thing until you are in power. And then you can like force things through and there's no real checks and balances because the power and we're doing things is the whole point.

[00:24:31] And it doesn't matter if you identify as a, like neo-Nazi or a fascist, you can just be doing fascism by checking those boxes. And the boxes that would be checked is widely swinging in your policy statements. Like, uh, declaring one thing to be true one day. Another thing to be on, on, on the next day without really a clear logic to be, uh, visible.

[00:24:55] So other people can't really like, plan with you not respecting prior commitments or boundaries that, uh, for example, international law, not respecting the rights of your opponents. Where like in, in a democratic system, even if you don't like somebody, you don't use a Department of Justice to go after them just because the fiscal policy doesn't align with you.

[00:25:21] Like as Trump has done. And like Unprecedentedly, a fat chair had to make a statement that like, I'm not gonna step down. This is false. Uh, charges, uh, people should be aware of this. We're gonna link this as well. So this is why I say fascism. and the way it links to fascism, going back to the authoritarian stack.

[00:25:41] Is that this playbook is at, uh, is uh, at least in five domains that are all somewhat connected to ai or at least like the people who are now doing ai. And previously they were doing crypto blockchain bullshit. And so that's like also in the, and those are like crypto sovereignty, the nuclear AI complex, like orbital infrastructure, autonomous warfare, and fully digitized and unified, government administration as part of like Palantir and like the Doge push.

[00:26:23] Jacob Haimes: Well, yeah, and, and to, to be clear, the last one is not just about like digitized. Um, it it's about state data so that they have a, surveillance state, right? So, so that anyone who doesn't do it anything, or anyone who does anything that they disagree with, that they don't want that person to be doing is, immediately. Dealt with in whatever way they, they think is necessary.

[00:26:51] Given yesterday morning, uh, when, when we're recording this, uh, Alex Prety was, was executed, by ICE

[00:27:01] Igor Krawczuk: I.

[00:27:02] Jacob Haimes: Um, later on in the day yesterday, um, I believe that, uh, Pam Bondy, uh, said that ICE would, would pull out of um, if Minnesota were to turn over its voter registration information.

[00:27:20] Igor Krawczuk: Holy shit.

[00:27:21] Jacob Haimes: this. Is evident that this, this is, this was the plan the whole time, right? The goal is to gather everyone's data that they can be the ones completely in control. They can say, oh, well this person has X, Y, Z on their data. And so they're not allowed to vote. it just so happens that all those people that we said weren't allowed to vote are the people who would vote for the opposition. That is what this kind of tool is being used for. And so the fact that the US government, you know, I, I think we talked about in the, uh, big Bad Bill episode, um, is. In that they're talking about, you know, we need to use AI systems for, uh, Medicaid audit flagging. and there was also a consolidation of, of data that, that was discussed in that bill. It is very possible, of course, I don't have the details here, but it is very possible that some of the data consolidation that happened because of that bill is what has allowed Palantir to use the Medicaid data in their tracking app that is now being used against citizens in Minnesota. You know, I, the idea of, oh, we're doing this for increased, productivity, right? We're, we're doing this to make, things more efficient is complete and utter bullshit.

[00:28:53] Igor Krawczuk: I mean, they're also saying they're doing it to detect fraud. Right. That's always the thing. There's like one aspect of fascism is they always have an other that is both very dangerous, but also like pitiful and disgusting and, uh, not as strong as us. And in this case, it's like the illegal immigrants and the voter fraud and the Medicaid fraud.

[00:29:14] That's the like excuse they use because they need to like become more efficient.

[00:29:18] Jacob Haimes: but it's also about like, you know, the system isn't efficient. You know, like there are things that we can do to improve

[00:29:26] Igor Krawczuk: Yeah. But I, yes it is, but I think it's one say like it is, it is inefficient because of a system called Staff the Beast, which is like a Reagan era strategy that has been continued where they keep not funding the system and, and like killing. Actual initiatives to make it efficient. For example, there used to be like an actual, like digital agency in, uh, in, uh, in the US I need to double check the name, but it was something like either like, um, D nine or something like that.

[00:29:58] Uh, it's digital FS nine maybe. Um, and that got shut down and like, uh, the federal free tax filing system, like direct file things that would actually make like the state smaller and make it more efficient, that gets shut down via funding withdrawal and little like laws against it. And then stuff that actually is less efficient, for example, like privatizing everything and, and having like 10,000 different, uh, profits seeking entities handle medical data instead of like a single payer system like that isn't pushed for because that.

[00:30:39] Has a profit idea or things that aren't efficient, but they allow for control. So for example, there's like consolidation of data, uh, and the AI tools that they're pushing. It doesn't serve the average citizen, but it does make it easier to find like that one protestor. So I think that's like important to say, but like, that's why some of of the systems are inefficient.

[00:31:02] When you get told, oh, we need to, uh, to make the system more efficient and we need to weed out voter fraud, there's like a very simple mental model that you should like, um, apply, which is like how many people are actually doing fraud.

[00:31:16] And if a number is something like 10,000 in a million or 10 million, that's very likely that this is just irreducible. Like you cannot rule it out because that's much more likely to be like somebody has a cousin putting in the wrong data that is undetectable by a new system as well, rather than like somebody lies to the official and doesn't get caught.

[00:31:39] Just like the way humans work. There's, there's a, and like if you try to like rule that out, like every, like, you can always make it like more efficient and more honest, but you, you start to pay a large price of denying like legitimate applications or making things less efficient for the normal case. If you become obsessed or, uh, with like weeding out a if it's only about money, then you should not care.

[00:32:05] In a sense that's like one concrete thing I would like to give to people. It is about like voting stuff. Sure. You can also like, um, say like even uh, one fraud, fraud vote is, is bad, but the same principle applies, but like how many legitimate votes are you throwing out or making, uh, possible if you obsess over this and if you get caught up in like the paranoia, you are creating the angle for the fascist playbook and for like funding Palantir and so on.

[00:32:34] That's one thing to say on that and I do think it's worth to talk about the nuclear AI complex as well. Like for us and maybe together with that, like the autonomous warfare. 

[00:32:45] Jacob Haimes: So autonomous warfare and, and AI as, um. Essentially like the, the boogieman for military, applications, I think is, bad. primarily because it undercuts all of the automation that's already been, uh, happening.

[00:33:07] All all of the, you know, I, I talk about this in an aside, in depth in, in one of the, into AI safety episodes, but people have been using AI in warfare since I believe World War I, when they called a table, which calculated the angle at which to place a mortar ai because it was aiding. The person that was actually doing the placement of the system. And we have used metadata recently determine whether someone is targeted by a drone strike or not. And that was, uh, in like, I think 2011 or something like that, right? those aren't good things. We shouldn't be doing those things. We shouldn't be killing people based on metadata that shouldn't be happening. and I at least think you can draw very strong parallels between. That instance and what happened in, um, Israel, uh, with the killing of because, sort of tool that I think was, uh, they said was, you know, AI was being used to help, make that process quote unquote more efficient. Uh, but then that resulted in rubber stamping because they had like quotas that they had to make. and that resulted in what is effectively determined whether or not they should be the target of a drone strike based on, you know, a fallible language model with, uh, no sort of thought for what that person is or, or appropriate, like thought put into that. So. Like autonomous warfare is bad and, and we should fight it. Um, and it is primarily bad because it encourages, reduced oversight it, and it makes it more likely that killing is, is seen as a number, is seen as a statistic. and that's not a, yeah, I, I, I, I don't know what else to say that, that's my, I mean, what are, what do you think

[00:35:16] Igor Krawczuk: I think people should think that, like right now, they, they're dealing with like, um, badly trained goons amongst ice, but they still have like some skin in the game. And like, at this point, you know, like, I do think there's a new militant, uh, strain rising in like the resistance movement as well. So like there's new Black Panthers, which I read a very poignant, uh, comment online that asked, Hey, how do I talk to white people about the fact that like, black and Hispanic people have stuff like very, any good, uh, killing happening like on a regular basis, like once a week, go once a month without disrespecting how horrible it is that it happened.

[00:36:05] And like with this now escalating, like, uh, I think we will see a lot more like armed protests and then that will of course, like increase like the volatility in, in the system. But like, who can blame? Who can, who can blame them? But if we have more autonomous warfare and like, you know, there's already like a militarization of a US police system in place.

[00:36:31] Like ice gets drones, then people should think not only in terms of like, oh, this is bad morally because like it's bad for people and like it's bad on a system level 'cause it reduces oversight and like it gives more money to fascists. But like you might be living under a drone sky as well if things go bad and like this is the title of uh, a PDF that we're linking about like how it feels like to live in Syria and Pakistan and like where the US was droning people also under Obama.

[00:37:04] And it's not nice. So that's, I think, one thing that is worth making salient for people without wanting to be like depressing. But like right now, you can still stop this. Like right now is the chance where like, uh, if you are in the US you're politically enfranchised. You like just have like lots of followers on uh.

[00:37:23] Uh, in, in your personal social network, like a big family, like share this website of, or authoritarian stack. Also share like, uh, the podcast of course, but like, more importantly, share this website, um, and, uh, share information like this and get you to think about like, if you are okay with ICE killing somebody right now.

[00:37:42] And even if you like, hate illegal immigrants, like, like it could be you. Uh, next time if, uh, and there there's also videos of like ice getting like MAGA supporters out of their, um, uh, uh, cars. Like, um, Lindsay Ellis, one of the credits that I like made a video about this on like Nebula, like a private platform where she chronicles this a bit where the reaction that people have is kinda, oh, it wasn't supposed to be me.

[00:38:08] And like the corresponding meme that we um, 

[00:38:12] Jacob Haimes: Leopards ate my face.

[00:38:13] Igor Krawczuk: Leopards affairs. Yeah. Like, uh, like, uh, like I didn't fo uh, think the leopards would eating my face as women who voted for le uh, leopards eating people's faces party. Like that's something people should like connect in their head.

[00:38:25] It's not something like abstract. Uh, so that's for autonomous warfare. And I think it's worth like briefly saying like the nuclear AI complex is like the stop the data center stuff is like the same thing, but like the super heavy investment into like nuclear power that is being justified with the necessity of ai because this is clearly like the way to go.

[00:38:44] And like if we don't do it, then China, it's gonna be first. It's also concentrating power. It's also like sidestepping uh, existing regulations right now. There's still, you know, like enough leftover regulation that you can at least like delay it. And at least, you know, like people are kind of aware of, like they don't want to live next to data centers.

[00:39:05] But it's all a bit connected. So like if you allow for the autonomous warfare or like just Ice and Palantir to act as they do, then like next we're gonna be targeting those protests. And I think whatever you were pet peeve visits worth to kind of like, try to like get involved in general in your like local politics and try to like be like a bridge builder and like, like, yes and people and find like allies because like there is an actual case where like, unless you are a billionaire, in which case fuck you, you, you, you should not exist.

[00:39:36] Like, uh, but like unless you're a billionaire, then like you are not on the same side as the people who are pushing this stack that is on this author and stack website. 

[00:39:48] Jacob Haimes: I mean, but, but so, what then, right, like, it, feels like, we, we've sort of said, yeah, it, it is actually worthwhile to, to do this sort of, um, exposing of, uh, what's going on and, and signal boosting of other people's, you know, high quality work that's doing the same. Um, something that I find myself thinking. Often, uh, is like, it feels like I should be able to do more. And, and maybe that isn't the case. Um, but yeah, it, I, I think that, you know, I'm just sort of acknowledging the sense of, like ineffectiveness, like I, I, I actually think Colorado does, does pretty good with a lot of the, the regulation related things. Jonah Guci, who is my congress person, is, you know, actually saying things actually, you know, trying to get. to happen and calling out issues. Um, so, so if, if I am to protest, like what does that do to a certain extent?

[00:40:56] You know, if, if my elected officials are already doing what I want them to do, and I, I, yeah, I don't know the answer. 

[00:41:02] Igor Krawczuk: So like, it is very difficult for me to say this with like authority. Um, 'Cause like I'm not in the US right now. I'm in Switzerland and I am not yet politically enfranchised. So I can do very little like myself, what I do to not feel ineffective and to kind of like get a feeling of self-efficacy.

[00:41:23] is, uh, like I joined like the local party that is the closest aligned with my, uh, values. Because I just, by being in that party, like they get like state funding and then I'm like on their mailing list and like, there's like actions where they organize and sometimes I give them more money and I feel involved.

[00:41:43] That's like one aspect and it's like a non-zero aspect. And this podcast is like another thing that I do to feel like I'm doing something at least. but I'm, I'm no delusion on like what the, like the scale of it is. And I think everyone can find some local thing that would make them feel like they're doing something and we can see some wins.

[00:42:09] For me, it was, um, like more abstract in the sense that I am a supporter of a nonprofit that sues the German government, which is where I'm originally from, to like expand our constitu constitutional rights. It's like our ACL U. We didn't have one until like 15 years ago. And I've been like supporting them since then and they actually like killed a bunch of like bad laws we used to have.

[00:42:31] And like I can kind of see how there's an impact there and you need to like hunt for those things. And I think there's like a, a practice of counting the wins as well as like all the bad stuff, uh, that happens. And it becomes easier if you are involved in some ways. So like for you as like Jacob, uh, maybe if there's like a local chapter of like Democrats or like our grassroots movements or like committees, uh, that meet or something like that.

[00:43:05] Being in, involved in there in like the capacity that you have. Even if it's just like giving like regular talks or being like the local expert or like, just like attendings so you know what's going on there. And then like being able to signal boost happenings on that. Mainly, or like in the upper, or, you know, like, like when they have like food afterwards and they just chat.

[00:43:30] There's like always like this feeling of like the community. I collected like a bunch of links earlier of like us movements that I know and maybe like you can find your own. And like, I think right now one of the biggest ones is like Indivisible, but it's like, was like the No Kings. Uh, and like, probably like that's one entry point for people

[00:43:54] and you don't have to do much is maybe important to uh, uh, say there's like a, a quote that sticks in my head, which is like, it's a choir, not a solo. And that like, if you think you're doing too little and you sign up, you sign up to the mailing list and you sign, you, you forward the email to one person who isn't on the mailing list.

[00:44:17] You've done something and you can do more, but you've, you are already like, in the part of people that does something and like maybe don't like, you know, show up to it at, at, at to the like, uh, local community center and call yourself like an active activist if all you did was for, for the email, like maybe like tamper that pride a bit, but it, it's a way to get started and then you will find stuff to get more involved and you will find like other people who care and you can like, feel less alone, which I think is very important.

[00:45:01] And another thing that I would like to share, like, um, it helps me a lot. Is like a book recommendation and a video recommendation for people who are lazy to read the book. Recommendation being alber can use, uh, the plague, which is about fascism. Literally. It's like his, like working through when he was a journalist, being embedded in the resistance in like Vichy France and fighting against Nazis and how it felt like to like, keep the fight going even though you couldn't win.

[00:45:38] At least not alone. And like, I'm not, I'm not sure, like we can't win in, but I, I've always tried to kind of like be okay with doing stuff even if I don't see how I can win, because like that feels very robust and it's easier to keep going when you see that you're winning. But like, like you need to have like something that keeps you going if you feel impotent, if you feel like you can't do anything.

[00:46:07] And those two things like helped me a lot there. And a lot of it is like paying attention to this small goodness moments were like, as horrible as it was. Like the killings have crystallized a lot of people to push back hard. Now, that might have been on the edge before. I've been following like the Hacker news, uh, discussions a lot.

[00:46:35] And like more and more people are kind of like putting shades to effect that. Like Hacker News is part of this like AI industrial complex, right? And they, they do. Algorithmically censor political topics in a way to like be, uh, like neutral. But it is very clear that, you know, this is like libertarian, like Silicon Valley neutrality

[00:46:56] Jacob Haimes: Yep.

[00:46:57] Igor Krawczuk: and even where people are now like pointing out more and more how ridiculous this is and how it's a bit shameful that like the, the money grabbing is more important than some form of decency.

[00:47:12] So it's not, all of this stuff is not without effect and all of the protests, all of the loss in popularity does still matter. And, uh, part of why Trump backed down against Europe in the Greenland phase is probably because he's so unpopular right now and he can't afford more tariffs. Yeah. So all of this like pressure that you can put in different areas, it, it comes together and it can connect when there's like a, like a inciting incident, like all it needs is to, is that like one hardcore conserv, conservative Texan shoots an ice cop, uh, because he showed up at his house getting the wrong address and then gets shot and suddenly you have like a whole new, set of allies in like the hardcore conservative, actual like, uh, guns, rights, small states crowd who was maybe okay with Trump while he was only going after like the blacks and the Hispanics and like the people he doesn't like or know, but not, then it flips and is one on one of their dies, and if they see that treated the same way.

[00:48:25] Like, this stuff can change like very quickly. And like, I think all of those things are worth keeping in mind if it feels like it's overwhelming or like, uh, not, not, uh, enough. And, and then these like local reach out suggestions, they're more for keeping you going and allowing that like serendipity to exist.

[00:48:46] And maybe you're very talented and, and you can actually like rise through, through, through the ranks. Uh, but even if you're just a helper, that's enough. I think that would be what I would end with as like an encouraging note.

[00:49:00] Jacob Haimes: Well, that's all the muck that we have for today. share the, uh. Uh, what is it? Fascism Stack?

[00:49:08] Igor Krawczuk: Authoritarian stack.

[00:49:10] Jacob Haimes: stack Uh, they say that not supposed to ask you all to do more than one thing in the closeout. So, uh, since I care about that one, uh, I'll, I'll stick to that this time. Um, we'll, we'll catch you next time.