WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:24.961 --> 00:00:27.421 Lisa: Hello and welcome back, Lisa. 00:00:27.421 --> 00:00:29.311 I'm super excited to have you back. 00:00:29.881 --> 00:00:30.511 Thank you. 00:00:30.511 --> 00:00:30.901 Thank you. 00:00:30.901 --> 00:00:31.771 It's great to be here. 00:00:31.771 --> 00:00:36.691 We've got a fun, just amazing, rewarding topic to talk about today. 00:00:37.321 --> 00:00:38.671 Anke: We do indeed. 00:00:38.671 --> 00:00:40.801 Do you wanna introduce it? 00:00:41.011 --> 00:00:43.981 Because I think it's a very emotional topic in a way. 00:00:43.981 --> 00:00:44.341 I don't know. 00:00:44.341 --> 00:00:49.441 For me, it feels emotional because it's such a win-win situation. 00:00:49.711 --> 00:00:50.431 You know that that. 00:00:51.286 --> 00:00:56.326 That is, it's the kind of thing where everybody benefits that we're always aim 00:00:56.326 --> 00:00:59.056 for, but it's not that easy to pull off. 00:00:59.061 --> 00:00:59.221 Yeah. 00:00:59.321 --> 00:01:00.421 So I, 00:01:01.696 --> 00:01:01.966 Lisa: yeah, yeah. 00:01:01.966 --> 00:01:02.566 Take it away. 00:01:02.566 --> 00:01:06.496 And I think, you know, if we talk about win-win, we almost have to think about it. 00:01:06.496 --> 00:01:11.956 So a win-win, win-win situation, there are four wins. 00:01:12.826 --> 00:01:12.886 Ooh. 00:01:14.011 --> 00:01:21.181 Um, so the topic today is j is a jail dog program or prison dog programs. 00:01:21.181 --> 00:01:28.201 People refer to them in different ways, but um, in 2012, well, let me. 00:01:28.621 --> 00:01:33.661 Yeah, so we're talking about jail dogs and I'll talk about how I kind of got there. 00:01:34.141 --> 00:01:41.731 But KNO College, um, thankfully was, um, asked to participate, but it was 00:01:41.731 --> 00:01:45.931 a long, kind of a long journey with both Brad and I desiring to do that. 00:01:47.461 --> 00:01:49.546 Um, lemme give you a bit of a hi. 00:01:49.551 --> 00:01:52.081 Bit of a history in my. 00:01:52.546 --> 00:01:54.466 Baby dog trainer days. 00:01:54.766 --> 00:01:59.596 Um, this was probably 2004, so 21 years ago. 00:02:00.346 --> 00:02:04.306 Um, I had just taken a couple of professional dog training academies 00:02:04.306 --> 00:02:09.556 from, uh, pat Miller of Peaceable Paws and I was up in Maryland driving to 00:02:09.556 --> 00:02:13.426 her facility as I drove by a, a prison. 00:02:14.416 --> 00:02:17.746 And I looked at the prison and said, oh my gosh. 00:02:19.396 --> 00:02:22.396 I understand what my dad did now. 00:02:23.026 --> 00:02:27.616 So my father, when I was growing up as a child, had a PhD in clinical 00:02:27.616 --> 00:02:33.646 psychology, and he worked, ended up working for, as a chief psychologist in 00:02:33.646 --> 00:02:39.376 maximum security prisons in the sixties and the seventies, early seventies. 00:02:39.376 --> 00:02:44.386 He had in his schooling before then he had studied Skinner. 00:02:46.051 --> 00:02:48.871 I was raised with positive reinforcement. 00:02:49.951 --> 00:02:54.961 I was like, for example, when I got a a on a report card, I got $5, you 00:02:54.961 --> 00:02:59.641 know, maybe not a lot of money today, but back then, so, uh, was back then. 00:03:00.031 --> 00:03:04.891 So he lobbied against harsh treatment and beatings and 00:03:04.891 --> 00:03:06.751 solitary solitary confinement. 00:03:07.621 --> 00:03:12.451 Um, with inmates and lobbied for true rehabilitation 00:03:12.451 --> 00:03:13.891 through positive reinforcement. 00:03:14.371 --> 00:03:21.031 And he even wrote a book, um, in the seventies entitled Behavioral 00:03:21.031 --> 00:03:23.161 Science and Modern Penology. 00:03:23.161 --> 00:03:23.221 Wow. 00:03:23.671 --> 00:03:25.021 Which is all about. 00:03:27.271 --> 00:03:31.111 Helping the community of people who work within the prison system 00:03:31.111 --> 00:03:34.141 understand true rehabilitation. 00:03:34.171 --> 00:03:36.241 Just not lock 'em up and throw away the key. 00:03:37.051 --> 00:03:41.251 So as I drove by that facility thinking, oh my gosh, I 00:03:41.251 --> 00:03:42.721 understand learning theory now. 00:03:42.721 --> 00:03:44.311 This is what my dad was all about. 00:03:44.311 --> 00:03:49.261 I didn't understand it, you know, as a child thought, you know, one day I want 00:03:49.261 --> 00:03:51.481 to be involved in a jail dog program. 00:03:51.841 --> 00:03:53.641 That would just be amazing. 00:03:54.496 --> 00:03:56.836 Anke: So had you heard about that or was that just something where 00:03:56.836 --> 00:04:00.196 you thought this would be a good idea to bring those two together? 00:04:00.196 --> 00:04:00.286 I 00:04:00.286 --> 00:04:02.116 Lisa: just thought it would be a great idea. 00:04:02.116 --> 00:04:03.466 I hadn't heard about it. 00:04:04.126 --> 00:04:06.766 Then I learned, I had some colleagues in different parts 00:04:06.766 --> 00:04:08.746 of the country who were paid. 00:04:08.746 --> 00:04:12.586 I mean, they had paid positions as trainers in facilities, excuse 00:04:12.586 --> 00:04:13.606 me, I take a drink of water. 00:04:13.816 --> 00:04:14.176 Hmm. 00:04:15.241 --> 00:04:17.341 And, um, so I knew about it. 00:04:17.491 --> 00:04:21.421 Um, there's no prison near us that we knew about at the time, 00:04:21.601 --> 00:04:23.341 so we, Brad and I kicked around. 00:04:23.341 --> 00:04:25.201 My husband's a professional dog trainer too. 00:04:25.351 --> 00:04:30.421 If you've gone to our website, you kind of know, know that, um, we kicked around. 00:04:30.421 --> 00:04:32.521 Could we do something with our local jail? 00:04:32.521 --> 00:04:35.131 Could we do it with a county facility? 00:04:35.641 --> 00:04:40.201 But just never had the impetus to go there and try to figure it out because 00:04:40.201 --> 00:04:42.181 they were kind of short-term facilities. 00:04:44.131 --> 00:04:46.141 And so the intention was there. 00:04:48.091 --> 00:04:53.131 I'm a firm believer that if you set an intention, you can do this right? 00:04:53.341 --> 00:04:54.271 Do your dreams. 00:04:55.201 --> 00:04:56.401 I keep this on my desk. 00:04:56.401 --> 00:04:59.221 I've had it here for a couple of decades now. 00:05:00.241 --> 00:05:07.261 Um, so in 2012, in end of 2011 to early 2012, we got a call. 00:05:07.891 --> 00:05:13.561 From the person who was a partner in starting a jail dog program 00:05:13.831 --> 00:05:15.451 just across the state line. 00:05:15.571 --> 00:05:19.591 I live in the tri-state area of Georgia and North Carolina, Tennessee. 00:05:19.951 --> 00:05:25.411 So in Blairsville, Georgia, which is just 25 miles from us, they were starting 00:05:25.411 --> 00:05:30.061 a jail dog program in the Cowell, Coldwell Probation and Detention Center, 00:05:30.751 --> 00:05:34.441 where the stay was short, 180 days. 00:05:35.551 --> 00:05:40.321 And they said, would you, you know, be open to being 00:05:40.321 --> 00:05:41.851 the trainers for the program? 00:05:41.851 --> 00:05:44.761 I said, absolutely. 00:05:45.901 --> 00:05:50.221 On one condition, it has to be, the methods have to be 00:05:50.221 --> 00:05:51.751 positive reinforcement training. 00:05:52.501 --> 00:05:56.581 These men need to learn that they can change behavior without 00:05:56.581 --> 00:05:58.651 for fear or intimidation. 00:05:59.311 --> 00:06:01.021 And they said, sure. 00:06:02.671 --> 00:06:06.841 So it took, they were still in the, there was a lot of red tape, as you can imagine. 00:06:07.381 --> 00:06:08.701 Um, had to get the shelter. 00:06:08.731 --> 00:06:12.571 There was a, a shelter organization, a rescue organization involved, 00:06:13.051 --> 00:06:15.661 and a whole bunch of legal hoops that they had to jump through. 00:06:15.661 --> 00:06:20.431 But in the summer of 2012, we started that program, and at 00:06:20.431 --> 00:06:23.761 that time it was one program. 00:06:23.761 --> 00:06:25.891 We were it that, you know, the dogs. 00:06:26.491 --> 00:06:32.671 The shelter dogs were trained, lived 24 7 with the detainees, the detainees, 00:06:32.671 --> 00:06:35.371 detainees, work with them through the day. 00:06:36.121 --> 00:06:43.621 And we were there once a week, um, providing instruction and feedback and 00:06:43.621 --> 00:06:47.401 training and coaching and counseling and all the things that you do. 00:06:48.421 --> 00:06:55.621 And what's really amazing, these watching the anger and the, the. 00:06:58.336 --> 00:07:00.886 Just the consternation for life. 00:07:01.336 --> 00:07:07.156 Watching that dissipate in the men and helping them understand 00:07:07.156 --> 00:07:14.566 that patience, you have to have patience that, so it might take five 00:07:14.566 --> 00:07:16.666 minutes to help a dog learn a down. 00:07:18.061 --> 00:07:18.331 Yeah. 00:07:18.661 --> 00:07:18.931 Yeah. 00:07:18.991 --> 00:07:21.781 But look how easy it really was. 00:07:21.781 --> 00:07:24.451 When we're reinforcing the behavior that we want. 00:07:25.171 --> 00:07:31.801 And about week two or three, there's always a guy in there, most of them. 00:07:31.801 --> 00:07:34.591 Some of them, uh, maybe three quarters of them have children 00:07:34.591 --> 00:07:37.651 because they're young kids who have done, you know, involved in drugs, 00:07:37.651 --> 00:07:40.861 substance abuse, um, and got locked up. 00:07:40.951 --> 00:07:44.821 Um, someone would say, you know. 00:07:46.231 --> 00:07:50.281 I could use this with my kids, like, yeah, you can. 00:07:51.061 --> 00:07:51.601 Anke: You should. 00:07:52.676 --> 00:07:53.016 Lisa: You should. 00:07:53.221 --> 00:07:53.431 Yeah. 00:07:53.431 --> 00:07:53.851 Mm-hmm. 00:07:54.036 --> 00:07:55.081 So, so yeah. 00:07:55.081 --> 00:08:00.271 So we, we, I put the word out to all our colleagues, like, do you have 00:08:00.271 --> 00:08:01.801 any books you're ready to get rid of? 00:08:01.801 --> 00:08:04.531 Can you donate some books by author friends? 00:08:04.861 --> 00:08:07.471 And so people shipped books and. 00:08:08.191 --> 00:08:12.631 Old copies of a whole dog journal, a sub, you know, subscription magazine 00:08:12.631 --> 00:08:18.301 and online magazine now, um, to us, and we populated a library for them of 00:08:18.301 --> 00:08:24.361 positive reinforcement dog training books so they could have those to, to go to. 00:08:25.561 --> 00:08:26.011 Um, 00:08:26.341 --> 00:08:29.491 Anke: uh, like, you know, what's the, like, what just kind of really 00:08:30.181 --> 00:08:33.241 stood out for me was this to teach. 00:08:33.331 --> 00:08:34.291 I mean, it's almost like. 00:08:36.001 --> 00:08:41.431 These guys themselves, it was probably the first time that they, even in 00:08:41.431 --> 00:08:45.721 an environment to learn that, yeah, you don't have to be dominant and 00:08:45.721 --> 00:08:49.021 violent and whatever to, to kind of achieve what you wanna achieve. 00:08:49.021 --> 00:08:49.351 You just 00:08:49.651 --> 00:08:50.881 Lisa: gave, you just gave me cold chills. 00:08:50.971 --> 00:08:52.321 Yes, so true. 00:08:53.521 --> 00:08:54.151 So true. 00:08:54.391 --> 00:08:56.881 I remember Dave, Dave Proman. 00:08:57.616 --> 00:08:58.486 I'm still friends. 00:08:58.486 --> 00:09:02.296 We're still friends with, with this man and we're, he has a 00:09:02.356 --> 00:09:06.256 vintage VW bus like we do now, and we plan to go camping with him. 00:09:06.256 --> 00:09:10.876 I mean, we have relationships of inmates who have rehabilitated. 00:09:10.876 --> 00:09:16.336 They're on the outside now living productive lives, who are amazing 00:09:16.341 --> 00:09:18.031 people, doing amazing things. 00:09:19.091 --> 00:09:26.211 But he said somewhere near the end of the 12 week program, he said, nobody's ever. 00:09:27.676 --> 00:09:30.856 Treated me, given me positive reinforcement. 00:09:30.856 --> 00:09:32.506 I don't know how to handle it, 00:09:34.546 --> 00:09:35.176 you know? 00:09:36.046 --> 00:09:38.806 Um, yeah. 00:09:38.896 --> 00:09:45.916 And, and, and for, for the guys to understand that. 00:09:46.441 --> 00:09:53.101 Your first thought doesn't have to be lashing out or yelling that you 00:09:53.101 --> 00:09:59.131 can learn through this incredible being that you're with love and 00:09:59.131 --> 00:10:00.811 compa and unconditional love. 00:10:00.991 --> 00:10:04.051 Most of these guys have never felt that unconditional love. 00:10:04.081 --> 00:10:05.881 Yeah, few of them. 00:10:06.031 --> 00:10:08.101 A few of them over the years come from good. 00:10:08.731 --> 00:10:14.431 Good, healthy families, but most of them are products of the same kind of 00:10:14.431 --> 00:10:17.851 dysfunctional substance abuse family. 00:10:18.151 --> 00:10:18.451 Hmm. 00:10:18.871 --> 00:10:26.581 Anke: Um, so are there any statistics or any insights in how like, participating 00:10:26.581 --> 00:10:33.151 in this program would've helped them to basically, you know, recover their lives? 00:10:33.736 --> 00:10:34.306 Lisa: So, yes. 00:10:34.336 --> 00:10:40.516 So yeah, the superintendent of the program was a numbers woman, uh, for sure. 00:10:40.516 --> 00:10:43.816 And she was keeping numbers, so they tracked. 00:10:44.191 --> 00:10:49.921 You know, the, the men, after they get out to see if they stay out and 00:10:49.981 --> 00:10:56.941 running the numbers, um, and they still do that throughout today, the normal 00:10:56.941 --> 00:11:01.561 recidivism rate in the United States, which is the number of people who return 00:11:01.561 --> 00:11:05.521 to prison after being released is 75%. 00:11:06.751 --> 00:11:12.811 75% go right back in for, you know, many different reasons. 00:11:13.831 --> 00:11:16.771 Some of which is they have no place to go. 00:11:17.041 --> 00:11:19.411 They've learned it's safe, they're fed. 00:11:19.801 --> 00:11:21.091 It's so sad. 00:11:22.021 --> 00:11:30.331 Um, but in this program, the men who graduate from this program, 66% stay out. 00:11:32.186 --> 00:11:35.731 That's a massive drop now, that 66%. 00:11:36.421 --> 00:11:39.751 Um, and it, and that percentage varies somewhere, I think 00:11:39.751 --> 00:11:42.901 between 60 and 66, depending on. 00:11:43.996 --> 00:11:50.506 Um, but Diane, the superintendent, Diane Hassett, the superintendent of the program 00:11:50.506 --> 00:11:57.196 when she did the numbers, it is multiple millions of dollars the state has saved. 00:11:57.736 --> 00:11:58.006 Anke: Hmm. 00:11:59.056 --> 00:11:59.416 Wow. 00:12:00.016 --> 00:12:03.976 Lisa: By the men going through this rehabilitation program. 00:12:05.461 --> 00:12:06.271 Anke: That's incredible. 00:12:06.331 --> 00:12:06.451 Yeah. 00:12:06.451 --> 00:12:07.951 I wouldn't have even thought of the cost. 00:12:08.251 --> 00:12:08.551 It's a 00:12:08.551 --> 00:12:08.881 Lisa: win. 00:12:08.881 --> 00:12:09.421 It's a win for us. 00:12:09.421 --> 00:12:10.171 Oh my gosh. 00:12:10.441 --> 00:12:14.671 Would you, I if you, if I, one thing I can say to anyone who's listening 00:12:14.671 --> 00:12:16.711 to this, find a way to volunteer. 00:12:17.161 --> 00:12:18.106 Doesn't matter what it is. 00:12:19.351 --> 00:12:24.001 It could be at a shelter, it could be, um, reading, you know, 00:12:24.001 --> 00:12:27.211 literacy for whatever volunteer. 00:12:27.211 --> 00:12:32.191 It's so important for the group that you're volunteering for and you'll 00:12:32.191 --> 00:12:38.521 receive so much benefit, heartfelt benefit from giving of your time and expertise. 00:12:39.211 --> 00:12:41.761 Um, and you don't even have to have an expertise. 00:12:41.761 --> 00:12:45.481 You can learn that expertise, you know, within that, that group. 00:12:45.481 --> 00:12:45.541 Yeah. 00:12:46.741 --> 00:12:48.871 Um, but it's a win for the men. 00:12:49.951 --> 00:12:53.791 It's a win for the dogs because they're placed, they're trained and 00:12:53.791 --> 00:12:56.821 placed in wonderful, loving homes. 00:12:56.821 --> 00:12:58.471 They find their forever homes. 00:12:59.071 --> 00:13:01.741 It's a win for the state of Georgia. 00:13:02.461 --> 00:13:10.351 It's a win for not having a convict of on the streets 00:13:10.621 --> 00:13:13.291 trying to find a way to survive. 00:13:13.891 --> 00:13:17.581 Anke: Yeah, and it's a, it's a win for the shelter too because, you know, 00:13:17.581 --> 00:13:21.271 absolutely they have get the dogs adopted because that's the objective really. 00:13:21.271 --> 00:13:21.511 Right. 00:13:21.511 --> 00:13:26.011 To train these dogs so they, they're better or they're more likely, or 00:13:26.011 --> 00:13:27.511 it's easier for them to get adopted. 00:13:27.511 --> 00:13:27.721 Right. 00:13:27.721 --> 00:13:28.436 That's the objective. 00:13:28.901 --> 00:13:32.351 Lisa: It's called, the name of the program is called the Rescued Program. 00:13:32.441 --> 00:13:33.971 They have a Facebook page. 00:13:33.971 --> 00:13:35.561 So go, go Google. 00:13:35.591 --> 00:13:36.191 No, Google. 00:13:36.611 --> 00:13:41.021 Um, you can Google Rescue Program, but go to Facebook and I don't know if they 00:13:41.021 --> 00:13:43.541 have an Instagram page or not, but, um, 00:13:44.471 --> 00:13:47.171 Anke: I'll find it and I'll, I'll pop and below follow them 00:13:47.171 --> 00:13:48.401 Lisa: and you'll, you'll see. 00:13:49.391 --> 00:13:53.021 Anke: So, so the, the intention is to give the inmates. 00:13:53.866 --> 00:13:58.966 A skill really give them a level of connection they've never experienced. 00:13:58.966 --> 00:14:02.686 Because, you know, we'll melt when a dog looks at you. 00:14:02.686 --> 00:14:03.676 You know, and imagine Exactly. 00:14:03.676 --> 00:14:09.316 If you've never, if you've never felt that level of connection to 00:14:09.316 --> 00:14:12.976 another human, you know, it must be like a double whammy for them. 00:14:13.276 --> 00:14:16.906 So, and there's that skill, there's that, and, uh, yeah. 00:14:16.906 --> 00:14:18.526 So for the dogs, the shelters. 00:14:19.756 --> 00:14:20.236 Prison. 00:14:20.236 --> 00:14:22.606 The state it's like, and yeah. 00:14:22.726 --> 00:14:25.306 And from their children as well. 00:14:25.546 --> 00:14:28.336 You know, you mentioned it, you know, like, it's almost like they come back. 00:14:29.176 --> 00:14:31.366 They come back out as different people. 00:14:31.636 --> 00:14:31.726 Mm-hmm. 00:14:31.846 --> 00:14:34.486 Who will relate to other people differently. 00:14:34.786 --> 00:14:34.876 Lisa: Mm-hmm. 00:14:35.476 --> 00:14:40.696 So now as the program has grown over the, the decades, um, the dog 00:14:40.696 --> 00:14:44.776 training program is still a catalyst for just what you said, right? 00:14:44.776 --> 00:14:46.726 That connection and unconditional love. 00:14:47.416 --> 00:14:53.656 The, the, um, there's a job resume, building job skill. 00:14:54.241 --> 00:14:59.371 Piece where the men learn how to communicate and interview and write a 00:14:59.371 --> 00:15:03.991 resume and, and job search, if you will. 00:15:04.411 --> 00:15:09.001 They have a program run by, uh, United Community Bank where it comes in 00:15:09.001 --> 00:15:13.831 and teaches them all about finances and how to manage their finances. 00:15:14.431 --> 00:15:21.961 Um, there are, um, mindfulness classes, men's mindfulness. 00:15:22.681 --> 00:15:23.161 There. 00:15:23.191 --> 00:15:24.481 What else is there? 00:15:24.541 --> 00:15:29.071 Um, I'm blanking on a couple of the other programs. 00:15:31.261 --> 00:15:32.521 Oh, anger management. 00:15:33.241 --> 00:15:33.901 Very important. 00:15:35.551 --> 00:15:37.621 Very, very, very important. 00:15:37.981 --> 00:15:40.201 And then a class on integrity. 00:15:42.726 --> 00:15:43.146 Anke: Oh, wow. 00:15:43.876 --> 00:15:44.236 Lisa: Yeah. 00:15:44.331 --> 00:15:44.621 Anke: Yeah. 00:15:45.136 --> 00:15:47.446 I mean, I think that that's the, all the difference, right? 00:15:47.446 --> 00:15:50.506 To really make sure they're prepared to do something. 00:15:50.806 --> 00:15:54.556 Have you heard of any, who actually decided to become dog trainers? 00:15:55.366 --> 00:15:56.776 Lisa: None that have become dog trainers. 00:15:56.836 --> 00:15:57.421 Oh my goodness. 00:15:57.481 --> 00:15:57.821 Or dog 00:15:57.851 --> 00:16:00.901 Anke: walkers or like, you know, say, well, hey, let me do, let, 00:16:01.396 --> 00:16:02.982 let me do this as, as, as my. 00:16:03.731 --> 00:16:04.271 Question 00:16:04.331 --> 00:16:05.471 Lisa: what I'm forgetting. 00:16:05.471 --> 00:16:08.891 One of the most important pieces is a dog grooming program. 00:16:09.041 --> 00:16:09.341 Oh. 00:16:09.341 --> 00:16:10.421 So yeah. 00:16:10.511 --> 00:16:15.131 One of the colleges in Blairsville, um, provides their certificate, 00:16:15.131 --> 00:16:16.541 but they go through 12 weeks. 00:16:16.541 --> 00:16:20.351 We have a professional groomer who goes once a week and helps the guys learn 00:16:20.351 --> 00:16:22.241 how to professionally groom a dog. 00:16:22.901 --> 00:16:26.771 And so they come out with an on the job training and have 00:16:26.771 --> 00:16:28.301 gone to work as groomers. 00:16:28.301 --> 00:16:28.871 I know. 00:16:28.941 --> 00:16:32.721 Two people who have professional grooming businesses now. 00:16:32.901 --> 00:16:35.091 Oh, who were in the program. 00:16:36.001 --> 00:16:39.061 Anke: I mean, that's just, that's, there's just so much hope in this, 00:16:39.061 --> 00:16:43.321 you know, from so many different angles that I like it almost. 00:16:43.321 --> 00:16:46.711 You feel like there should be one in every, in every town, right? 00:16:47.046 --> 00:16:47.336 Area. 00:16:47.336 --> 00:16:47.456 Right. 00:16:47.456 --> 00:16:47.911 It would wonder if were 00:16:48.331 --> 00:16:50.101 Lisa: the talk about giving back the. 00:16:50.376 --> 00:16:54.126 First, the program started with six dogs and six men in a very 00:16:54.126 --> 00:16:56.706 small, tiny room with six beds. 00:16:56.766 --> 00:16:59.136 All the dog stuff, they were like cramped. 00:17:00.006 --> 00:17:03.756 A year later, the program had been so successful that they increased the 00:17:03.756 --> 00:17:07.206 space, but one of the first six men. 00:17:08.581 --> 00:17:13.531 Uh, when he got out, he went to work for a local groomer and then ended up 00:17:13.531 --> 00:17:17.731 buying that business from the groomer, was a professional groomer for many 00:17:17.731 --> 00:17:24.151 years, and came back to volunteer as a volunteer groomer when the original 00:17:24.151 --> 00:17:27.871 groomer had to move on to other things. 00:17:28.501 --> 00:17:29.221 So. 00:17:29.881 --> 00:17:30.481 What 00:17:30.781 --> 00:17:32.161 Anke: a full, full vicious cycle. 00:17:32.161 --> 00:17:33.421 That's just beautiful. 00:17:33.756 --> 00:17:34.046 Yeah. 00:17:34.051 --> 00:17:34.591 Yeah. 00:17:34.681 --> 00:17:37.201 I mean, and so would you, do you find that. 00:17:39.091 --> 00:17:43.141 All the inmates relate to the dogs, or is that sometimes, have you had 00:17:43.141 --> 00:17:47.431 cases where you go, well, he's just not catching it, like you can't, 00:17:47.851 --> 00:17:49.261 the dog's not safe with that one. 00:17:49.441 --> 00:17:52.831 Is there, I mean, are there differences or are they all just kind of 00:17:52.831 --> 00:17:54.901 melting in the presence of the dog? 00:17:54.901 --> 00:17:54.966 I think 00:17:54.966 --> 00:18:00.751 Lisa: that I would say probably 90% of them are just, they may 00:18:00.751 --> 00:18:04.531 not have, they each have different skill levels and different. 00:18:05.446 --> 00:18:11.236 Um, different levels of commitment and you also learn which ones are pretty 00:18:11.236 --> 00:18:15.556 manipulative, you know, because they've had, they've lived a life of having to 00:18:15.916 --> 00:18:17.896 manipulate to get things that they want. 00:18:17.896 --> 00:18:20.446 So we were pretty good at reading that. 00:18:20.446 --> 00:18:23.476 And if we couldn't, the superintendent could read it really well and 00:18:23.476 --> 00:18:25.306 could, you know, share with us. 00:18:25.846 --> 00:18:29.026 Um, but most of them give it. 00:18:29.881 --> 00:18:33.211 Um, give it 80 to a hundred percent. 00:18:33.811 --> 00:18:38.371 There are some that if they're not, if they're, if they are not taking care 00:18:38.371 --> 00:18:41.761 of their dog, I mean this, they're up at four 30 in the morning and they 00:18:41.761 --> 00:18:46.291 are busy through until dinner and maybe even some things after dinner. 00:18:46.291 --> 00:18:50.101 It is not a walk in the park to be in the dog, what they call the dog dorm. 00:18:51.586 --> 00:18:57.946 The other guys outside of, of the dog dorm think it's a walk in the park 00:18:58.126 --> 00:19:00.226 like, Ooh, I wanna be in the dog dorm. 00:19:00.226 --> 00:19:01.156 I'm gonna apply. 00:19:01.846 --> 00:19:05.716 And if they have the right background, they can't have any, 00:19:05.776 --> 00:19:09.856 um, serious crimes, no chimes, no crimes against animals or children. 00:19:10.126 --> 00:19:12.436 They have to go through a rigorous interview process. 00:19:12.436 --> 00:19:14.956 They have to write an essay on why they want to be involved. 00:19:15.646 --> 00:19:21.046 And when they get into the program, they find out that it's some of the hardest 00:19:21.046 --> 00:19:24.766 work they've ever done, but the most rewarding work that they've ever done. 00:19:25.241 --> 00:19:25.641 Anke: I love that. 00:19:25.861 --> 00:19:28.241 So there is like an application process, right? 00:19:28.621 --> 00:19:28.843 So it's not, 00:19:29.746 --> 00:19:30.406 Lisa: yeah, they're out. 00:19:30.406 --> 00:19:32.686 Like if they're not doing their part, they're out. 00:19:32.686 --> 00:19:33.346 Like, sorry. 00:19:34.006 --> 00:19:35.416 They have rule integrity. 00:19:35.716 --> 00:19:37.036 Integrity rules. 00:19:37.366 --> 00:19:37.666 Anke: Yeah. 00:19:38.326 --> 00:19:41.236 Lisa: There something is violated then. 00:19:42.481 --> 00:19:43.621 It's not a lose the spot. 00:19:43.981 --> 00:19:47.671 It's not three strike, you're out, it's for strike. 00:19:47.851 --> 00:19:48.241 Anke: You're out. 00:19:48.271 --> 00:19:48.631 Yeah. 00:19:48.696 --> 00:19:48.986 Yeah. 00:19:49.381 --> 00:19:52.951 So there's basically a whole bunch of people in that person and some 00:19:52.951 --> 00:19:55.471 apply and participate in that program. 00:19:55.471 --> 00:19:56.461 So you have to apply. 00:19:56.466 --> 00:19:56.506 Mm-hmm. 00:19:56.591 --> 00:19:58.741 And so do you find there's more demand? 00:19:58.771 --> 00:20:02.191 Uh, like are they kind of like, oh, we need more dogs because we have 00:20:02.461 --> 00:20:03.961 so many people who wanna do it? 00:20:03.961 --> 00:20:04.651 Is it like popular? 00:20:04.651 --> 00:20:05.131 Yes. 00:20:05.256 --> 00:20:07.656 Or is it just speaking to the right people? 00:20:07.716 --> 00:20:10.866 Lisa: It's it well, and we're, you know, we're limited by space and we're 00:20:10.866 --> 00:20:15.816 li limited by the number of, we have there is, and we are, we just retired 00:20:15.816 --> 00:20:20.556 from the program and, and colleague who trained with us for a couple of years, 00:20:20.916 --> 00:20:26.136 um, stepped into that role and we're so thankful that he's carrying on and 00:20:26.136 --> 00:20:28.326 doing such good work with the dogs. 00:20:29.366 --> 00:20:35.366 Um, but we're a little bit limited by space, and we normally have six to 00:20:35.366 --> 00:20:39.386 nine dogs and six to nine detainees. 00:20:39.536 --> 00:20:42.356 So they try to have some alternates. 00:20:42.776 --> 00:20:42.866 Hmm. 00:20:42.926 --> 00:20:47.156 So that if a person happens, their release has a release date, comes early, 00:20:47.966 --> 00:20:54.116 um, that, that per, that, that alternate can step in or that alternate if their 00:20:54.116 --> 00:20:57.356 sentence extends into the next class. 00:20:57.476 --> 00:20:57.716 The. 00:20:58.831 --> 00:21:02.611 The next class, they can step in and be a mentor 'cause they've been through the 00:21:02.611 --> 00:21:09.451 program and kind of guide, um, when we are not there, when the trainer isn't there. 00:21:09.811 --> 00:21:10.231 Anke: Mm. 00:21:10.831 --> 00:21:11.461 I love that. 00:21:11.701 --> 00:21:16.771 It's just such a, yeah, I don't know, it's just like, you, you, you really 00:21:16.771 --> 00:21:21.211 wish that this was like the norm that every facility would have a program like 00:21:21.211 --> 00:21:24.421 that, you know, because there's always like, yeah, there's all these other. 00:21:25.651 --> 00:21:28.651 Organizations and people who are around who benefit as well. 00:21:28.651 --> 00:21:28.981 Right. 00:21:28.981 --> 00:21:32.341 So there is really nothing that speaks against it. 00:21:32.821 --> 00:21:32.971 Yeah. 00:21:32.971 --> 00:21:33.571 That I can see. 00:21:33.571 --> 00:21:33.661 There 00:21:33.901 --> 00:21:37.471 Lisa: are several, several programs, uh, animal programs within the state 00:21:37.471 --> 00:21:41.281 of Georgia and Diane Hassett, who was the superintendent of the facility 00:21:41.731 --> 00:21:47.131 when we were in the program, has now retired, but taken a part-time position. 00:21:47.131 --> 00:21:51.241 She is the head of all of the animal programs within the 00:21:51.241 --> 00:21:53.131 Georgia Department of Corrections. 00:21:53.131 --> 00:21:53.191 I. 00:21:54.226 --> 00:21:55.991 Um, and so there, so all 00:21:55.991 --> 00:21:58.486 Anke: the, all the animals, are they all dog programs or do, 00:21:58.591 --> 00:21:59.831 do they do things with cats? 00:21:59.881 --> 00:22:01.231 There was a horse program, other animals. 00:22:01.391 --> 00:22:03.196 Lisa: I think the horse program has been shut down. 00:22:03.196 --> 00:22:08.326 There's a, a, um, a service dog training and a puppy raising program. 00:22:08.896 --> 00:22:12.826 Um, so such, such, such important work. 00:22:12.886 --> 00:22:13.846 Such important work. 00:22:13.846 --> 00:22:14.656 And I have. 00:22:15.061 --> 00:22:19.261 An article that I wrote for the Pet Professional Guild Magazine some 00:22:19.261 --> 00:22:24.361 years ago, and I'll provide you a link with that so your, your viewers 00:22:24.361 --> 00:22:27.061 and listeners can access that link. 00:22:27.061 --> 00:22:30.781 And I'll also add a couple of videos where you can see some videos of some 00:22:30.781 --> 00:22:33.511 of the, the work that we've done. 00:22:33.916 --> 00:22:34.546 I love that. 00:22:34.846 --> 00:22:35.896 Thank you so much. 00:22:35.926 --> 00:22:36.076 Yeah. 00:22:36.076 --> 00:22:37.006 It's not about us. 00:22:37.066 --> 00:22:37.996 We're the catalyst. 00:22:37.996 --> 00:22:40.666 It's really the work the men and the dogs have done. 00:22:40.666 --> 00:22:41.056 Yeah. 00:22:41.356 --> 00:22:45.226 Anke: So if somebody wanted to get involved in some capacity, if somebody 00:22:45.226 --> 00:22:48.106 says, well, I've got toys that I can donate, is there somebody who 00:22:48.106 --> 00:22:52.156 says, well, I wanna, I don't know, volunteer in some like, or I'm a 00:22:52.156 --> 00:22:53.776 group, or I can teach these guys. 00:22:53.776 --> 00:22:56.566 Or like, you know, what's the way, where would somebody go? 00:22:56.566 --> 00:22:56.656 I 00:22:56.656 --> 00:23:00.016 Lisa: think I, yeah, I would love to see more of these programs, 00:23:00.076 --> 00:23:02.266 I would say in your local area. 00:23:02.971 --> 00:23:10.741 If you have the skills, um, to, to manage and train, be the, be the trainer for the, 00:23:10.771 --> 00:23:15.121 for the men and the dogs, then contact. 00:23:16.276 --> 00:23:20.566 Um, the c communications director, the person who's involved with com 00:23:20.596 --> 00:23:25.726 communications or pub public publicity within that correctional facility. 00:23:26.476 --> 00:23:29.836 And it needs to be a facility that has some sort of a long, where 00:23:29.836 --> 00:23:33.616 the inmates have a, some sort of a long term stay or even short term. 00:23:33.616 --> 00:23:37.366 Ours was 180 days, so we ran the program every 12 weeks. 00:23:37.426 --> 00:23:40.966 Well, it was 12 weeks and we'd take two or three weeks off and, you 00:23:40.966 --> 00:23:43.366 know, for the interviews of the men. 00:23:43.936 --> 00:23:45.376 Um, but. 00:23:45.666 --> 00:23:51.396 Within a prison facility, um, you have a longer stay though it's going to be 00:23:51.396 --> 00:23:55.896 a little bit more challenging because the security measures will be much more 00:23:55.896 --> 00:24:00.966 stringent in a prison versus, um, a medium facility, medium security facility. 00:24:01.266 --> 00:24:05.616 We could have a clickers, they have metal in them. 00:24:06.366 --> 00:24:09.276 Anke: Ah, see this is the kind of stuff you wouldn't even think about. 00:24:09.276 --> 00:24:09.636 It can be 00:24:09.636 --> 00:24:12.966 Lisa: taken apart and made into a shank and a knife. 00:24:13.741 --> 00:24:17.731 You know, um, so there are so many things you have to think of. 00:24:17.731 --> 00:24:22.681 We could have dog gear, we could have collars and harnesses and leashes and my 00:24:22.681 --> 00:24:29.911 colleagues in, in maximum security, um, prisons couldn't have any of that, right? 00:24:29.941 --> 00:24:36.901 No metal, no nothing, no staples, no brads in pamphlets, nothing. 00:24:38.026 --> 00:24:40.036 Because it could fall in the hands. 00:24:40.036 --> 00:24:43.036 And these guys are creative about making things like 00:24:43.036 --> 00:24:43.126 Anke: that. 00:24:43.126 --> 00:24:44.386 I was just saying, they're like, yeah. 00:24:45.946 --> 00:24:49.156 I mean, sometimes you think like, well, if they're that creative about 00:24:49.156 --> 00:24:50.386 getting a job, it'd be helpful. 00:24:50.386 --> 00:24:52.036 But, but it's, it's, 00:24:52.036 --> 00:24:53.416 Lisa: but, but I've never felt safer. 00:24:53.626 --> 00:24:55.096 I've just never felt safer. 00:24:55.096 --> 00:24:55.426 I never, that's 00:24:55.636 --> 00:24:56.266 Anke: interesting. 00:24:56.386 --> 00:24:56.656 Yeah. 00:24:56.686 --> 00:24:59.446 Lisa: But of course my dad, I mean, I went to prison with my dad. 00:24:59.451 --> 00:25:01.451 We went to family meetings. 00:25:01.601 --> 00:25:01.891 Yeah. 00:25:02.446 --> 00:25:03.616 When they'd have bands. 00:25:03.676 --> 00:25:08.956 The inmate band, you know, in Marion, he was in Mar Marion, Illinois, a 00:25:08.956 --> 00:25:14.896 maximum security fac, a prison that replaced Alcatraz and Alcatraz closed. 00:25:15.016 --> 00:25:15.106 Mm-hmm. 00:25:15.166 --> 00:25:17.656 So they were really hardened criminals. 00:25:17.656 --> 00:25:21.196 And you know, I was in there several different times as a, as a 00:25:21.196 --> 00:25:26.356 young child and a young teenager, and it just seemed normal to me. 00:25:26.596 --> 00:25:27.406 Anke: That's interesting. 00:25:27.406 --> 00:25:27.586 Yeah. 00:25:27.586 --> 00:25:28.786 That's, that's, yeah. 00:25:28.906 --> 00:25:29.086 I mean. 00:25:30.376 --> 00:25:32.146 Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it? 00:25:32.536 --> 00:25:34.126 Well, that's Fas it's fascinating. 00:25:34.126 --> 00:25:36.166 My mind's spinning, so that's, yeah. 00:25:36.286 --> 00:25:36.616 Awesome. 00:25:36.856 --> 00:25:38.566 Thank you so much for sharing that. 00:25:38.566 --> 00:25:39.196 Trying to get involved 00:25:39.376 --> 00:25:43.966 Lisa: contact, contact, the, the publicity or communications director 00:25:43.966 --> 00:25:49.216 of that facility probably would be good to maybe do some legwork ahead 00:25:49.216 --> 00:25:53.116 of time because you can only have a program if you have a, a rescue group 00:25:53.116 --> 00:25:55.306 or a shelter who's gonna provide dogs. 00:25:55.666 --> 00:25:55.906 Anke: Yeah. 00:25:56.416 --> 00:26:00.916 Lisa: And you'll need, you know, some sort of a steady stream of dogs. 00:26:00.976 --> 00:26:05.266 And so, you know, chat with your shelters and see if someone 00:26:05.266 --> 00:26:06.706 might be open to doing that. 00:26:06.706 --> 00:26:10.396 How, if, if that would be a possibility. 00:26:10.456 --> 00:26:16.366 And then contact the, the facility and see if you can get the. 00:26:16.876 --> 00:26:18.556 The motion in progress. 00:26:18.916 --> 00:26:23.506 And Diane Hassett here in, um, Georgia, or in Georgia? 00:26:23.506 --> 00:26:25.366 I'm in North Carolina, but she's in Georgia. 00:26:25.726 --> 00:26:29.656 She is happy to speak with anyone for a couple of years. 00:26:29.776 --> 00:26:33.856 Um, our, the whole team, the whole rescue team, um, we spoke at the 00:26:33.856 --> 00:26:37.936 American Correctional Association conferences about the program to help, 00:26:37.966 --> 00:26:39.376 you know, spread the word of, mm-hmm. 00:26:39.826 --> 00:26:45.286 Of what we were doing and how valuable it was for the men, the dogs, and 00:26:45.286 --> 00:26:49.126 the state of Georgia to save, you know, lots of taxpayer dollars. 00:26:49.156 --> 00:26:49.186 Mm, 00:26:49.846 --> 00:26:50.656 Anke: yeah, for sure. 00:26:50.866 --> 00:26:54.046 Actually, it just popped to mind are, are there any sort of criteria 00:26:54.046 --> 00:26:58.396 for the dogs, because you wouldn't perhaps, I don't know, like, not 00:26:58.396 --> 00:27:04.126 throw like a severely traumatized dog into the hands of a novice, uh, you 00:27:04.126 --> 00:27:08.596 know, somebody who's just starting to learn how to kind of relate to a dog. 00:27:09.541 --> 00:27:13.561 Lisa: That's, that's a very astute question for sure. 00:27:13.831 --> 00:27:23.221 So we really need dogs who, who are affiliative, who are pretty 00:27:23.221 --> 00:27:25.171 comfortable, not overly fearful. 00:27:25.681 --> 00:27:29.126 It's a very busy environment in this facility. 00:27:29.776 --> 00:27:30.106 Hmm. 00:27:30.346 --> 00:27:36.346 Um, we oftentimes have to work diligently to help a dog learn to walk on tile 00:27:36.406 --> 00:27:41.686 because they've never, a lot of the dogs were here in our area, a rural 00:27:41.686 --> 00:27:46.066 area, are picked up in strays and many of them haven't lived inside. 00:27:46.966 --> 00:27:49.816 And so anything that's inside is scary. 00:27:51.166 --> 00:27:55.726 Um, so we asked, we always asked the shelters to do as, as much as they 00:27:55.726 --> 00:28:03.556 could to bring us affiliate affiliative dogs with, um, without any overt, 00:28:03.616 --> 00:28:10.561 overt fear or anxiety who could come into a noisy environment and. 00:28:11.626 --> 00:28:15.256 Need only a week or two of adjustment. 00:28:15.496 --> 00:28:20.446 We've had to let dogs go back to the shelter because they were 00:28:20.446 --> 00:28:22.606 suffering in the environment. 00:28:22.846 --> 00:28:22.906 Yeah. 00:28:22.906 --> 00:28:26.446 They just weren't making progress and it was unfair. 00:28:26.956 --> 00:28:28.666 Keep in the program. 00:28:28.786 --> 00:28:28.966 Anke: Yeah. 00:28:28.966 --> 00:28:30.646 'cause it needs to work for, for, 00:28:30.646 --> 00:28:31.966 Lisa: for all parties really, you know? 00:28:32.266 --> 00:28:33.046 Absolutely. 00:28:33.196 --> 00:28:36.916 You know, we want the men to feel emotionally and physically 00:28:36.916 --> 00:28:40.366 safe and the dogs to feel emotionally and physically safe. 00:28:41.041 --> 00:28:41.311 Yeah. 00:28:41.851 --> 00:28:48.271 And um, the guys, if they have a job and a home and a place to take care of the 00:28:48.271 --> 00:28:51.931 dogs, they can adopt their program dog. 00:28:52.171 --> 00:28:55.141 Anke: Oh, doesn't happen often. 00:28:55.141 --> 00:28:56.101 I, I just wish, 00:28:57.121 --> 00:29:00.391 Lisa: yeah, probably 30, 30 to 50% of the time. 00:29:01.081 --> 00:29:01.741 Wow. 00:29:02.701 --> 00:29:03.091 Yeah. 00:29:03.496 --> 00:29:06.436 Anke: Oh, that, I didn't even think of that initially when we're saying 00:29:06.436 --> 00:29:10.096 like, the dogs find their forever home didn't even catch on that it actually 00:29:10.096 --> 00:29:11.661 might be that person who trained them. 00:29:11.661 --> 00:29:11.821 Yeah. 00:29:11.821 --> 00:29:12.421 It could be that person. 00:29:12.916 --> 00:29:13.276 Lisa: Yeah. 00:29:14.206 --> 00:29:14.686 Anke: Wow. 00:29:14.956 --> 00:29:16.036 That is fabulous. 00:29:16.456 --> 00:29:20.296 Yeah, I mean, I think this is just so inspiring on so many levels, so 00:29:20.296 --> 00:29:23.236 thank you so much for, you know, coming back and sharing that. 00:29:23.236 --> 00:29:24.286 Lisa: Oh, you're so welcome. 00:29:24.286 --> 00:29:25.876 I'm happy to share, share it. 00:29:25.876 --> 00:29:27.976 It's, it was such a big part of our life. 00:29:27.981 --> 00:29:31.246 We, we always used to say we're in jail every Thursday. 00:29:32.386 --> 00:29:35.716 Or I'd brought, you know, I'd be coming back from the dog program and I'd, 00:29:35.776 --> 00:29:41.026 you know, jump into a Zoom meeting 'cause I taught virtually, uh, I was 00:29:41.026 --> 00:29:45.826 a separation anxiety trainer for seven years and I'd you get back into my seat. 00:29:45.826 --> 00:29:47.446 I said, yeah, I'm just back from jail. 00:29:47.446 --> 00:29:48.226 Jail. 00:29:51.021 --> 00:29:51.871 Anke: Well, that's right. 00:29:53.481 --> 00:29:54.231 Lisa: Crime is over. 00:29:58.591 --> 00:29:59.071 Anke: Awesome. 00:29:59.071 --> 00:30:00.301 Well, thank you so much. 00:30:00.541 --> 00:30:04.021 I'll pop the details to find you outside of jail, 00:30:05.191 --> 00:30:05.371 Lisa: right? 00:30:05.701 --> 00:30:06.181 Oh, yes. 00:30:06.186 --> 00:30:06.196 And 00:30:07.471 --> 00:30:07.651 Anke: you. 00:30:08.461 --> 00:30:08.941 Lisa: Yeah. 00:30:09.031 --> 00:30:09.331 Yeah. 00:30:09.541 --> 00:30:12.391 So this is something I've, I've got some pictures too. 00:30:12.571 --> 00:30:17.581 You know, I gave, gave guys copy of the books when my, my book first came out. 00:30:18.241 --> 00:30:24.391 Um, and we, I had them go through those first few chapters every week. 00:30:24.391 --> 00:30:27.781 I'd give them a little something to do from my book, the original 00:30:27.781 --> 00:30:32.191 Rocket Recall, teach your Dog to come and they had so much fun. 00:30:32.851 --> 00:30:37.171 You know, they had so much fun thinking, oh this woman, this 00:30:37.171 --> 00:30:38.911 woman actually wrote this book. 00:30:38.911 --> 00:30:40.291 Yeah, how cool is that? 00:30:40.291 --> 00:30:45.031 And then we have some, uh, on demand, uh, videos now. 00:30:45.031 --> 00:30:50.281 But I had them in hard, hard form early on, you know, and gave them DVDs. 00:30:50.281 --> 00:30:54.181 So they'll watch the DVDs and they'd come back and say, oh, I saw how you 00:30:54.481 --> 00:30:57.451 got Willow on the standup paddle board. 00:30:57.451 --> 00:30:59.736 And um, it was just fun, you know, it. 00:31:00.081 --> 00:31:05.061 It, it gave them something more than just what we taught 00:31:05.061 --> 00:31:06.411 when we were there in person. 00:31:06.501 --> 00:31:06.951 Anke: Yeah. 00:31:06.956 --> 00:31:07.796 Oh, that makes a lot sense. 00:31:07.796 --> 00:31:09.171 As did the library that we helped, 00:31:09.261 --> 00:31:09.891 Lisa: you know mm-hmm. 00:31:10.191 --> 00:31:10.761 Anke: Curate to that. 00:31:10.851 --> 00:31:11.001 Lisa: Yeah. 00:31:11.541 --> 00:31:14.871 Anke: I mean, it must have like totally changed the way they would've 00:31:14.871 --> 00:31:16.671 experienced that time for them, right? 00:31:17.211 --> 00:31:17.481 Mm-hmm. 00:31:18.141 --> 00:31:18.411 Lisa: Yeah. 00:31:18.411 --> 00:31:21.651 And it continues on, um, even though we're not there now, it 00:31:21.651 --> 00:31:23.601 makes my heart so very happy. 00:31:24.616 --> 00:31:24.856 Mine 00:31:24.856 --> 00:31:25.066 Anke: too. 00:31:26.326 --> 00:31:26.566 Good. 00:31:26.806 --> 00:31:28.066 Well, thank you so much. 00:31:28.396 --> 00:31:28.876 Uh, yeah. 00:31:28.876 --> 00:31:31.426 I'll pop all your details underneath and if you know, we'll 00:31:31.426 --> 00:31:35.626 pop the link to the article and the videos, so yeah, definitely. 00:31:35.656 --> 00:31:36.526 Let's, let's thanks so much. 00:31:36.526 --> 00:31:39.616 Spread the word and make sure this program's like that everywhere. 00:31:39.706 --> 00:31:39.796 Such 00:31:39.796 --> 00:31:40.246 Lisa: a joy. 00:31:42.641 --> 00:31:43.871 Thanks so much for listening. 00:31:44.391 --> 00:31:48.691 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:31:48.791 --> 00:31:50.571 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:31:51.361 --> 00:31:54.851 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:31:55.281 --> 00:32:00.851 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:32:00.951 --> 00:32:03.321 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:32:03.321 --> 00:32:07.051 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:32:07.471 --> 00:32:08.611 I'd love an introduction. 00:32:09.091 --> 00:32:10.921 Email me at Anke. 00:32:11.191 --> 00:32:15.426 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.