Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Lisa: Hello and welcome back, Lisa.
I'm super excited to have you back.
Thank you.
It's great to be here.
We've got a fun, just amazing, rewarding topic to talk about today.
Anke: We do indeed.
Do you wanna introduce it?
Because I think it's a very emotional topic in a way.
I don't know.
For me, it feels emotional because it's such a win-win situation.
You know that that.
That is, it's the kind of thing where everybody benefits that we're always aim
for, but it's not that easy to pull off.
Yeah.
So I,
Lisa: yeah, yeah.
Take it away.
And I think, you know, if we talk about win-win, we almost have to think about it.
So a win-win, win-win situation, there are four wins.
Ooh.
Um, so the topic today is j is a jail dog program or prison dog programs.
People refer to them in different ways, but um, in 2012, well, let me.
Yeah, so we're talking about jail dogs and I'll talk about how I kind of got there.
But KNO College, um, thankfully was, um, asked to participate, but it was
a long, kind of a long journey with both Brad and I desiring to do that.
Um, lemme give you a bit of a hi.
Bit of a history in my.
Baby dog trainer days.
Um, this was probably 2004, so 21 years ago.
Um, I had just taken a couple of professional dog training academies
from, uh, pat Miller of Peaceable Paws and I was up in Maryland driving to
her facility as I drove by a, a prison.
And I looked at the prison and said, oh my gosh.
I understand what my dad did now.
So my father, when I was growing up as a child, had a PhD in clinical
psychology, and he worked, ended up working for, as a chief psychologist in
maximum security prisons in the sixties and the seventies, early seventies.
He had in his schooling before then he had studied Skinner.
I was raised with positive reinforcement.
I was like, for example, when I got a a on a report card, I got $5, you
know, maybe not a lot of money today, but back then, so, uh, was back then.
So he lobbied against harsh treatment and beatings and
solitary solitary confinement.
Um, with inmates and lobbied for true rehabilitation
through positive reinforcement.
And he even wrote a book, um, in the seventies entitled Behavioral
Science and Modern Penology.
Wow.
Which is all about.
Helping the community of people who work within the prison system
understand true rehabilitation.
Just not lock 'em up and throw away the key.
So as I drove by that facility thinking, oh my gosh, I
understand learning theory now.
This is what my dad was all about.
I didn't understand it, you know, as a child thought, you know, one day I want
to be involved in a jail dog program.
That would just be amazing.
Anke: So had you heard about that or was that just something where
you thought this would be a good idea to bring those two together?
I
Lisa: just thought it would be a great idea.
I hadn't heard about it.
Then I learned, I had some colleagues in different parts
of the country who were paid.
I mean, they had paid positions as trainers in facilities, excuse
me, I take a drink of water.
Hmm.
And, um, so I knew about it.
Um, there's no prison near us that we knew about at the time,
so we, Brad and I kicked around.
My husband's a professional dog trainer too.
If you've gone to our website, you kind of know, know that, um, we kicked around.
Could we do something with our local jail?
Could we do it with a county facility?
But just never had the impetus to go there and try to figure it out because
they were kind of short-term facilities.
And so the intention was there.
I'm a firm believer that if you set an intention, you can do this right?
Do your dreams.
I keep this on my desk.
I've had it here for a couple of decades now.
Um, so in 2012, in end of 2011 to early 2012, we got a call.
From the person who was a partner in starting a jail dog program
just across the state line.
I live in the tri-state area of Georgia and North Carolina, Tennessee.
So in Blairsville, Georgia, which is just 25 miles from us, they were starting
a jail dog program in the Cowell, Coldwell Probation and Detention Center,
where the stay was short, 180 days.
And they said, would you, you know, be open to being
the trainers for the program?
I said, absolutely.
On one condition, it has to be, the methods have to be
positive reinforcement training.
These men need to learn that they can change behavior without
for fear or intimidation.
And they said, sure.
So it took, they were still in the, there was a lot of red tape, as you can imagine.
Um, had to get the shelter.
There was a, a shelter organization, a rescue organization involved,
and a whole bunch of legal hoops that they had to jump through.
But in the summer of 2012, we started that program, and at
that time it was one program.
We were it that, you know, the dogs.
The shelter dogs were trained, lived 24 7 with the detainees, the detainees,
detainees, work with them through the day.
And we were there once a week, um, providing instruction and feedback and
training and coaching and counseling and all the things that you do.
And what's really amazing, these watching the anger and the, the.
Just the consternation for life.
Watching that dissipate in the men and helping them understand
that patience, you have to have patience that, so it might take five
minutes to help a dog learn a down.
Yeah.
But look how easy it really was.
When we're reinforcing the behavior that we want.
And about week two or three, there's always a guy in there, most of them.
Some of them, uh, maybe three quarters of them have children
because they're young kids who have done, you know, involved in drugs,
substance abuse, um, and got locked up.
Um, someone would say, you know.
I could use this with my kids, like, yeah, you can.
Anke: You should.
Lisa: You should.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So, so yeah.
So we, we, I put the word out to all our colleagues, like, do you have
any books you're ready to get rid of?
Can you donate some books by author friends?
And so people shipped books and.
Old copies of a whole dog journal, a sub, you know, subscription magazine
and online magazine now, um, to us, and we populated a library for them of
positive reinforcement dog training books so they could have those to, to go to.
Um,
Anke: uh, like, you know, what's the, like, what just kind of really
stood out for me was this to teach.
I mean, it's almost like.
These guys themselves, it was probably the first time that they, even in
an environment to learn that, yeah, you don't have to be dominant and
violent and whatever to, to kind of achieve what you wanna achieve.
You just
Lisa: gave, you just gave me cold chills.
Yes, so true.
So true.
I remember Dave, Dave Proman.
I'm still friends.
We're still friends with, with this man and we're, he has a
vintage VW bus like we do now, and we plan to go camping with him.
I mean, we have relationships of inmates who have rehabilitated.
They're on the outside now living productive lives, who are amazing
people, doing amazing things.
But he said somewhere near the end of the 12 week program, he said, nobody's ever.
Treated me, given me positive reinforcement.
I don't know how to handle it,
you know?
Um, yeah.
And, and, and for, for the guys to understand that.
Your first thought doesn't have to be lashing out or yelling that you
can learn through this incredible being that you're with love and
compa and unconditional love.
Most of these guys have never felt that unconditional love.
Yeah, few of them.
A few of them over the years come from good.
Good, healthy families, but most of them are products of the same kind of
dysfunctional substance abuse family.
Hmm.
Anke: Um, so are there any statistics or any insights in how like, participating
in this program would've helped them to basically, you know, recover their lives?
Lisa: So, yes.
So yeah, the superintendent of the program was a numbers woman, uh, for sure.
And she was keeping numbers, so they tracked.
You know, the, the men, after they get out to see if they stay out and
running the numbers, um, and they still do that throughout today, the normal
recidivism rate in the United States, which is the number of people who return
to prison after being released is 75%.
75% go right back in for, you know, many different reasons.
Some of which is they have no place to go.
They've learned it's safe, they're fed.
It's so sad.
Um, but in this program, the men who graduate from this program, 66% stay out.
That's a massive drop now, that 66%.
Um, and it, and that percentage varies somewhere, I think
between 60 and 66, depending on.
Um, but Diane, the superintendent, Diane Hassett, the superintendent of the program
when she did the numbers, it is multiple millions of dollars the state has saved.
Anke: Hmm.
Wow.
Lisa: By the men going through this rehabilitation program.
Anke: That's incredible.
Yeah.
I wouldn't have even thought of the cost.
It's a
Lisa: win.
It's a win for us.
Oh my gosh.
Would you, I if you, if I, one thing I can say to anyone who's listening
to this, find a way to volunteer.
Doesn't matter what it is.
It could be at a shelter, it could be, um, reading, you know,
literacy for whatever volunteer.
It's so important for the group that you're volunteering for and you'll
receive so much benefit, heartfelt benefit from giving of your time and expertise.
Um, and you don't even have to have an expertise.
You can learn that expertise, you know, within that, that group.
Yeah.
Um, but it's a win for the men.
It's a win for the dogs because they're placed, they're trained and
placed in wonderful, loving homes.
They find their forever homes.
It's a win for the state of Georgia.
It's a win for not having a convict of on the streets
trying to find a way to survive.
Anke: Yeah, and it's a, it's a win for the shelter too because, you know,
absolutely they have get the dogs adopted because that's the objective really.
Right.
To train these dogs so they, they're better or they're more likely, or
it's easier for them to get adopted.
Right.
That's the objective.
Lisa: It's called, the name of the program is called the Rescued Program.
They have a Facebook page.
So go, go Google.
No, Google.
Um, you can Google Rescue Program, but go to Facebook and I don't know if they
have an Instagram page or not, but, um,
Anke: I'll find it and I'll, I'll pop and below follow them
Lisa: and you'll, you'll see.
Anke: So, so the, the intention is to give the inmates.
A skill really give them a level of connection they've never experienced.
Because, you know, we'll melt when a dog looks at you.
You know, and imagine Exactly.
If you've never, if you've never felt that level of connection to
another human, you know, it must be like a double whammy for them.
So, and there's that skill, there's that, and, uh, yeah.
So for the dogs, the shelters.
Prison.
The state it's like, and yeah.
And from their children as well.
You know, you mentioned it, you know, like, it's almost like they come back.
They come back out as different people.
Mm-hmm.
Who will relate to other people differently.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
So now as the program has grown over the, the decades, um, the dog
training program is still a catalyst for just what you said, right?
That connection and unconditional love.
The, the, um, there's a job resume, building job skill.
Piece where the men learn how to communicate and interview and write a
resume and, and job search, if you will.
They have a program run by, uh, United Community Bank where it comes in
and teaches them all about finances and how to manage their finances.
Um, there are, um, mindfulness classes, men's mindfulness.
There.
What else is there?
Um, I'm blanking on a couple of the other programs.
Oh, anger management.
Very important.
Very, very, very important.
And then a class on integrity.
Anke: Oh, wow.
Lisa: Yeah.
Anke: Yeah.
I mean, I think that that's the, all the difference, right?
To really make sure they're prepared to do something.
Have you heard of any, who actually decided to become dog trainers?
Lisa: None that have become dog trainers.
Oh my goodness.
Or dog
Anke: walkers or like, you know, say, well, hey, let me do, let,
let me do this as, as, as my.
Question
Lisa: what I'm forgetting.
One of the most important pieces is a dog grooming program.
Oh.
So yeah.
One of the colleges in Blairsville, um, provides their certificate,
but they go through 12 weeks.
We have a professional groomer who goes once a week and helps the guys learn
how to professionally groom a dog.
And so they come out with an on the job training and have
gone to work as groomers.
I know.
Two people who have professional grooming businesses now.
Oh, who were in the program.
Anke: I mean, that's just, that's, there's just so much hope in this,
you know, from so many different angles that I like it almost.
You feel like there should be one in every, in every town, right?
Area.
Right.
It would wonder if were
Lisa: the talk about giving back the.
First, the program started with six dogs and six men in a very
small, tiny room with six beds.
All the dog stuff, they were like cramped.
A year later, the program had been so successful that they increased the
space, but one of the first six men.
Uh, when he got out, he went to work for a local groomer and then ended up
buying that business from the groomer, was a professional groomer for many
years, and came back to volunteer as a volunteer groomer when the original
groomer had to move on to other things.
So.
What
Anke: a full, full vicious cycle.
That's just beautiful.
Yeah.
I mean, and so would you, do you find that.
All the inmates relate to the dogs, or is that sometimes, have you had
cases where you go, well, he's just not catching it, like you can't,
the dog's not safe with that one.
Is there, I mean, are there differences or are they all just kind of
melting in the presence of the dog?
I think
Lisa: that I would say probably 90% of them are just, they may
not have, they each have different skill levels and different.
Um, different levels of commitment and you also learn which ones are pretty
manipulative, you know, because they've had, they've lived a life of having to
manipulate to get things that they want.
So we were pretty good at reading that.
And if we couldn't, the superintendent could read it really well and
could, you know, share with us.
Um, but most of them give it.
Um, give it 80 to a hundred percent.
There are some that if they're not, if they're, if they are not taking care
of their dog, I mean this, they're up at four 30 in the morning and they
are busy through until dinner and maybe even some things after dinner.
It is not a walk in the park to be in the dog, what they call the dog dorm.
The other guys outside of, of the dog dorm think it's a walk in the park
like, Ooh, I wanna be in the dog dorm.
I'm gonna apply.
And if they have the right background, they can't have any,
um, serious crimes, no chimes, no crimes against animals or children.
They have to go through a rigorous interview process.
They have to write an essay on why they want to be involved.
And when they get into the program, they find out that it's some of the hardest
work they've ever done, but the most rewarding work that they've ever done.
Anke: I love that.
So there is like an application process, right?
So it's not,
Lisa: yeah, they're out.
Like if they're not doing their part, they're out.
Like, sorry.
They have rule integrity.
Integrity rules.
Anke: Yeah.
Lisa: There something is violated then.
It's not a lose the spot.
It's not three strike, you're out, it's for strike.
Anke: You're out.
Yeah.
So there's basically a whole bunch of people in that person and some
apply and participate in that program.
So you have to apply.
Mm-hmm.
And so do you find there's more demand?
Uh, like are they kind of like, oh, we need more dogs because we have
so many people who wanna do it?
Is it like popular?
Yes.
Or is it just speaking to the right people?
Lisa: It's it well, and we're, you know, we're limited by space and we're
li limited by the number of, we have there is, and we are, we just retired
from the program and, and colleague who trained with us for a couple of years,
um, stepped into that role and we're so thankful that he's carrying on and
doing such good work with the dogs.
Um, but we're a little bit limited by space, and we normally have six to
nine dogs and six to nine detainees.
So they try to have some alternates.
Hmm.
So that if a person happens, their release has a release date, comes early,
um, that, that per, that, that alternate can step in or that alternate if their
sentence extends into the next class.
The.
The next class, they can step in and be a mentor 'cause they've been through the
program and kind of guide, um, when we are not there, when the trainer isn't there.
Anke: Mm.
I love that.
It's just such a, yeah, I don't know, it's just like, you, you, you really
wish that this was like the norm that every facility would have a program like
that, you know, because there's always like, yeah, there's all these other.
Organizations and people who are around who benefit as well.
Right.
So there is really nothing that speaks against it.
Yeah.
That I can see.
There
Lisa: are several, several programs, uh, animal programs within the state
of Georgia and Diane Hassett, who was the superintendent of the facility
when we were in the program, has now retired, but taken a part-time position.
She is the head of all of the animal programs within the
Georgia Department of Corrections.
I.
Um, and so there, so all
Anke: the, all the animals, are they all dog programs or do,
do they do things with cats?
There was a horse program, other animals.
Lisa: I think the horse program has been shut down.
There's a, a, um, a service dog training and a puppy raising program.
Um, so such, such, such important work.
Such important work.
And I have.
An article that I wrote for the Pet Professional Guild Magazine some
years ago, and I'll provide you a link with that so your, your viewers
and listeners can access that link.
And I'll also add a couple of videos where you can see some videos of some
of the, the work that we've done.
I love that.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
It's not about us.
We're the catalyst.
It's really the work the men and the dogs have done.
Yeah.
Anke: So if somebody wanted to get involved in some capacity, if somebody
says, well, I've got toys that I can donate, is there somebody who
says, well, I wanna, I don't know, volunteer in some like, or I'm a
group, or I can teach these guys.
Or like, you know, what's the way, where would somebody go?
I
Lisa: think I, yeah, I would love to see more of these programs,
I would say in your local area.
If you have the skills, um, to, to manage and train, be the, be the trainer for the,
for the men and the dogs, then contact.
Um, the c communications director, the person who's involved with com
communications or pub public publicity within that correctional facility.
And it needs to be a facility that has some sort of a long, where
the inmates have a, some sort of a long term stay or even short term.
Ours was 180 days, so we ran the program every 12 weeks.
Well, it was 12 weeks and we'd take two or three weeks off and, you
know, for the interviews of the men.
Um, but.
Within a prison facility, um, you have a longer stay though it's going to be
a little bit more challenging because the security measures will be much more
stringent in a prison versus, um, a medium facility, medium security facility.
We could have a clickers, they have metal in them.
Anke: Ah, see this is the kind of stuff you wouldn't even think about.
It can be
Lisa: taken apart and made into a shank and a knife.
You know, um, so there are so many things you have to think of.
We could have dog gear, we could have collars and harnesses and leashes and my
colleagues in, in maximum security, um, prisons couldn't have any of that, right?
No metal, no nothing, no staples, no brads in pamphlets, nothing.
Because it could fall in the hands.
And these guys are creative about making things like
Anke: that.
I was just saying, they're like, yeah.
I mean, sometimes you think like, well, if they're that creative about
getting a job, it'd be helpful.
But, but it's, it's,
Lisa: but, but I've never felt safer.
I've just never felt safer.
I never, that's
Anke: interesting.
Yeah.
Lisa: But of course my dad, I mean, I went to prison with my dad.
We went to family meetings.
Yeah.
When they'd have bands.
The inmate band, you know, in Marion, he was in Mar Marion, Illinois, a
maximum security fac, a prison that replaced Alcatraz and Alcatraz closed.
Mm-hmm.
So they were really hardened criminals.
And you know, I was in there several different times as a, as a
young child and a young teenager, and it just seemed normal to me.
Anke: That's interesting.
Yeah.
That's, that's, yeah.
I mean.
Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it?
Well, that's Fas it's fascinating.
My mind's spinning, so that's, yeah.
Awesome.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Trying to get involved
Lisa: contact, contact, the, the publicity or communications director
of that facility probably would be good to maybe do some legwork ahead
of time because you can only have a program if you have a, a rescue group
or a shelter who's gonna provide dogs.
Anke: Yeah.
Lisa: And you'll need, you know, some sort of a steady stream of dogs.
And so, you know, chat with your shelters and see if someone
might be open to doing that.
How, if, if that would be a possibility.
And then contact the, the facility and see if you can get the.
The motion in progress.
And Diane Hassett here in, um, Georgia, or in Georgia?
I'm in North Carolina, but she's in Georgia.
She is happy to speak with anyone for a couple of years.
Um, our, the whole team, the whole rescue team, um, we spoke at the
American Correctional Association conferences about the program to help,
you know, spread the word of, mm-hmm.
Of what we were doing and how valuable it was for the men, the dogs, and
the state of Georgia to save, you know, lots of taxpayer dollars.
Mm,
Anke: yeah, for sure.
Actually, it just popped to mind are, are there any sort of criteria
for the dogs, because you wouldn't perhaps, I don't know, like, not
throw like a severely traumatized dog into the hands of a novice, uh, you
know, somebody who's just starting to learn how to kind of relate to a dog.
Lisa: That's, that's a very astute question for sure.
So we really need dogs who, who are affiliative, who are pretty
comfortable, not overly fearful.
It's a very busy environment in this facility.
Hmm.
Um, we oftentimes have to work diligently to help a dog learn to walk on tile
because they've never, a lot of the dogs were here in our area, a rural
area, are picked up in strays and many of them haven't lived inside.
And so anything that's inside is scary.
Um, so we asked, we always asked the shelters to do as, as much as they
could to bring us affiliate affiliative dogs with, um, without any overt,
overt fear or anxiety who could come into a noisy environment and.
Need only a week or two of adjustment.
We've had to let dogs go back to the shelter because they were
suffering in the environment.
Yeah.
They just weren't making progress and it was unfair.
Keep in the program.
Anke: Yeah.
'cause it needs to work for, for,
Lisa: for all parties really, you know?
Absolutely.
You know, we want the men to feel emotionally and physically
safe and the dogs to feel emotionally and physically safe.
Yeah.
And um, the guys, if they have a job and a home and a place to take care of the
dogs, they can adopt their program dog.
Anke: Oh, doesn't happen often.
I, I just wish,
Lisa: yeah, probably 30, 30 to 50% of the time.
Wow.
Yeah.
Anke: Oh, that, I didn't even think of that initially when we're saying
like, the dogs find their forever home didn't even catch on that it actually
might be that person who trained them.
Yeah.
It could be that person.
Lisa: Yeah.
Anke: Wow.
That is fabulous.
Yeah, I mean, I think this is just so inspiring on so many levels, so
thank you so much for, you know, coming back and sharing that.
Lisa: Oh, you're so welcome.
I'm happy to share, share it.
It's, it was such a big part of our life.
We, we always used to say we're in jail every Thursday.
Or I'd brought, you know, I'd be coming back from the dog program and I'd,
you know, jump into a Zoom meeting 'cause I taught virtually, uh, I was
a separation anxiety trainer for seven years and I'd you get back into my seat.
I said, yeah, I'm just back from jail.
Jail.
Anke: Well, that's right.
Lisa: Crime is over.
Anke: Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
I'll pop the details to find you outside of jail,
Lisa: right?
Oh, yes.
And
Anke: you.
Lisa: Yeah.
Yeah.
So this is something I've, I've got some pictures too.
You know, I gave, gave guys copy of the books when my, my book first came out.
Um, and we, I had them go through those first few chapters every week.
I'd give them a little something to do from my book, the original
Rocket Recall, teach your Dog to come and they had so much fun.
You know, they had so much fun thinking, oh this woman, this
woman actually wrote this book.
Yeah, how cool is that?
And then we have some, uh, on demand, uh, videos now.
But I had them in hard, hard form early on, you know, and gave them DVDs.
So they'll watch the DVDs and they'd come back and say, oh, I saw how you
got Willow on the standup paddle board.
And um, it was just fun, you know, it.
It, it gave them something more than just what we taught
when we were there in person.
Anke: Yeah.
Oh, that makes a lot sense.
As did the library that we helped,
Lisa: you know mm-hmm.
Anke: Curate to that.
Lisa: Yeah.
Anke: I mean, it must have like totally changed the way they would've
experienced that time for them, right?
Mm-hmm.
Lisa: Yeah.
And it continues on, um, even though we're not there now, it
makes my heart so very happy.
Mine
Anke: too.
Good.
Well, thank you so much.
Uh, yeah.
I'll pop all your details underneath and if you know, we'll
pop the link to the article and the videos, so yeah, definitely.
Let's, let's thanks so much.
Spread the word and make sure this program's like that everywhere.
Such
Lisa: a joy.
Thanks so much for listening.
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