WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.537 --> 00:00:17.557 Jethro Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.097 --> 00:00:19.557 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.557 --> 00:00:22.317 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.019 --> 00:00:37.449 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.449 --> 00:00:41.469 I am so excited to have on the program today, Kate Anderson Foley. 00:00:41.559 --> 00:00:45.459 She is the founder and CEO of the Education Policy and Practice Group. 00:00:45.789 --> 00:00:52.449 She's an international Keynoter McLean affiliate of Harvard Medical School Institute of Coaching Fellow. 00:00:52.624 --> 00:00:55.624 That was a mouthful, a thought partner and an author. 00:00:56.014 --> 00:01:08.644 She has experience in, uh, public schools and she also has a book out that is called The Radically Excellent School Improvement Keeping Students at the Center of It All. 00:01:08.644 --> 00:01:11.704 So Kate, welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:01:11.704 --> 00:01:12.934 Great to have you here today. 00:01:13.029 --> 00:01:14.589 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: Thank you so much for inviting me. 00:01:14.589 --> 00:01:15.699 I'm excited to be here. 00:01:16.344 --> 00:01:16.644 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:01:16.644 --> 00:01:19.134 Well, I'm very excited for this conversation. 00:01:19.434 --> 00:01:26.514 Um, one of the things that I want to get into first is, uh, you highlight specifically. 00:01:27.204 --> 00:01:31.164 Special education as a way, uh, to help improve schools. 00:01:31.494 --> 00:01:33.384 And I think that this is essential. 00:01:33.384 --> 00:01:41.574 Can you talk a little bit about that first, and we'll get into some other things first, but a lot of people think special education, like that's the their own thing. 00:01:41.574 --> 00:01:44.124 And we're really trying to improve tier one instruction. 00:01:44.124 --> 00:01:45.084 That's what we gotta do. 00:01:45.384 --> 00:01:46.914 You're taking a little bit different approach. 00:01:46.914 --> 00:01:47.574 Can you tell me about 00:01:47.764 --> 00:01:48.214 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: Yep. 00:01:48.214 --> 00:01:49.954 So thanks for that question. 00:01:50.044 --> 00:01:59.524 Um, I have a special education background as a teacher administrator, but I never looked at special ed through the lens of just special ed, like that siloed approach. 00:01:59.674 --> 00:02:00.784 I looked at it as well. 00:02:00.784 --> 00:02:00.994 There's. 00:02:01.024 --> 00:02:01.594 Students. 00:02:01.654 --> 00:02:05.014 Students first and foremost, what does a fourth grade student need? 00:02:05.014 --> 00:02:06.454 What does an eighth grade student need? 00:02:06.664 --> 00:02:08.614 And then where is the the gap? 00:02:09.184 --> 00:02:13.324 And then from there, design really tight. 00:02:14.379 --> 00:02:21.669 Instruction, explicit instruction, and then the transference of those skills so they can be successful in their grade level. 00:02:22.059 --> 00:02:29.889 And so, um, special education has always been one of those things of them versus the rest of the kids. 00:02:29.889 --> 00:02:33.734 And I'm so glad you brought up tier one because I've. 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:44.789 It's been my experience and it's been my work and that's why I really kind of refashioned, um, these tier into a double helix. 00:02:45.029 --> 00:02:54.029 You know, kind of like that one strand is absolutely dependent on another, but you look at the whole continuum of students as a teacher, as an administrator. 00:02:54.609 --> 00:02:58.869 Every teacher knows there's no set group of students. 00:02:58.869 --> 00:03:02.889 There's no norm, so to speak, but you have to pay attention to the tails as well. 00:03:03.099 --> 00:03:09.399 And so special education has always been, um, a siloed practice. 00:03:09.399 --> 00:03:22.419 And I say, no, we need to push it back into the classroom fully in that sense of, in the sense of what do, what does the student need to be successful, and then how do we support the teachers in that delivery? 00:03:23.289 --> 00:03:31.809 Jethro Jones: yeah, and special education is the only place where segregation is still allowed and encouraged in our education system, which just isn't right either. 00:03:32.079 --> 00:03:33.129 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: That that's correct. 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:35.289 Um, and so that's why. 00:03:35.859 --> 00:03:42.999 Again, when I work with districts and I work with schools, I look at it from what, what, what does the student need? 00:03:42.999 --> 00:03:49.629 You know, keeping the student at the center and then all the adult and all those decisions need to be centered around that student. 00:03:49.929 --> 00:03:57.279 And that's where I help districts work on designing lessons that. 00:03:58.434 --> 00:04:01.644 Are comprehensively situating the adults. 00:04:01.884 --> 00:04:05.094 So special ed teachers related service providers. 00:04:05.094 --> 00:04:10.674 Of course, all the generalists, you know, related people, but they need to understand. 00:04:11.229 --> 00:04:16.059 How to work with each other, how to work and draw upon each other. 00:04:16.479 --> 00:04:30.219 And this is the last, the thing that I'll say about that it we're in this new place and since the pandemic to now, there's been a huge increase in students being identified as special education. 00:04:30.579 --> 00:04:34.449 There's almost over half a million students. 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:54.429 Just stop and think about that gravity of that, because once a student is identified as special education, to your point, they're automatically starting to have a lower trajectory, lower expectations moved out, or even if they're in the same classroom, they can be just as segregated and siloed. 00:04:55.414 --> 00:04:55.704 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:04:55.999 --> 00:05:02.419 Well, and, and what's so fascinating as a principal, my exposure to special ed was different. 00:05:02.419 --> 00:05:04.759 That my exposure to special ed as a parent. 00:05:05.179 --> 00:05:31.189 And, and that was really fascinating to me too because, um, because there are, there are two categories of special ed, those that don't do well in the school system, and so they get labeled as special ed and those that have actual real disabilities, like my daughter with Down syndrome, like someone with cerebral palsy, like someone with something else that makes it. 00:05:31.704 --> 00:05:35.784 Necessary for them to ha have that support all throughout their life. 00:05:36.324 --> 00:05:49.794 And so when I, when, when I was a teacher and I was teaching middle school and students were able to test out of special ed, I thought, well, how is that even possible? 00:05:49.854 --> 00:05:58.494 Like that is, I thought special ed was for kids like my daughter who have these permanent disabilities and that it's not just a short-term thing. 00:05:59.379 --> 00:06:04.239 Because if it's a short term thing, then it's not actually a disability. 00:06:04.239 --> 00:06:11.619 In my mind it is either poor instruction or some other thing that's making it so that they're not being successful. 00:06:11.919 --> 00:06:14.139 Uh, help me process through that a little bit. 00:06:14.259 --> 00:06:16.209 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: Well, you were a hundred percent right. 00:06:16.239 --> 00:06:21.039 Um, I know when I was in the public sector before I started my uh, business. 00:06:21.579 --> 00:06:25.209 I always worked to get myself outta special education. 00:06:25.389 --> 00:06:29.379 That was the role that was, you come in there and try to get yourself out of the job. 00:06:29.379 --> 00:06:30.789 And I was serious about it. 00:06:30.939 --> 00:06:33.759 And the people that I surrounded myself were serious about it. 00:06:34.449 --> 00:06:42.339 Um, but I think that there's, while we understand that disability is a natural point of life, it's just, and that's, that's great. 00:06:42.339 --> 00:06:44.139 This all is included, right? 00:06:44.919 --> 00:06:50.049 But if you have inefficient. 00:06:50.829 --> 00:06:51.729 Education. 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:52.869 That's the instruction. 00:06:53.109 --> 00:06:55.809 Both the academic and the behavioral side of learning. 00:06:56.469 --> 00:06:59.649 And teachers are not, they just don't have the skillset. 00:07:00.009 --> 00:07:05.799 Or maybe they don't have the mindset, but they don't have something and it's inhibiting well, who's paying? 00:07:05.799 --> 00:07:06.789 The student pays. 00:07:07.149 --> 00:07:09.279 And we need to flip that around. 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:16.419 And that's why I say that I I am very bold in saying, we need to ban the tears. 00:07:16.794 --> 00:07:23.424 We need to fundamentally rethink how we're looking at, um, instruction. 00:07:23.814 --> 00:07:26.964 And I call it, um, nimble and responsive. 00:07:26.964 --> 00:07:31.404 Nimble means it's adaptive to the students in the classroom that are in front of this teacher. 00:07:32.244 --> 00:07:35.574 And responsive means we are making real time decisions. 00:07:36.609 --> 00:07:43.179 And that spirals out or cascades into those teacher-based teams, right? 00:07:43.479 --> 00:07:47.499 And so you're not just looking at things in isolation, you're working in collaboration. 00:07:47.769 --> 00:07:53.469 And that's where I say open up the doors like we all need to work together on this. 00:07:53.919 --> 00:08:00.159 And what I have known, and I'm sure you have too, the students who came back from the pandemic are different students. 00:08:00.909 --> 00:08:07.719 Now they were different before the pandemic from maybe, you know, 10 years ago or 15 years ago, but they're fundamentally different now. 00:08:08.049 --> 00:08:13.299 And so I always say, well, if you, you know, you're doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. 00:08:13.749 --> 00:08:19.989 Meaning if what we did before wasn't working, what makes you think that it's going to work now? 00:08:20.229 --> 00:08:26.169 And so that's why I really like to work with districts, uh, to say, let's dare to dare. 00:08:27.144 --> 00:08:32.244 Because students' lives are actually on the line, their trajectory. 00:08:32.244 --> 00:08:32.844 Right? 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:33.959 Jethro Jones: Yep. 00:08:34.074 --> 00:08:35.844 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: a, with a diploma, not a 00:08:35.844 --> 00:08:41.334 certificate, not an IEP completion, a diploma, a regular diploma. 00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:55.649 Jethro Jones: Yeah, it's, it's interesting you say that because I was having a, uh, discussion with someone a few weeks ago and they said, you know, there's no, uh, consequences for parents if their kids don't do well in school. 00:08:55.889 --> 00:08:57.929 And I was like, are you crazy? 00:08:57.969 --> 00:09:03.279 The, the consequences are huge for parents if the kids don't do well in school. 00:09:03.579 --> 00:09:06.219 That's why parents care so much about their kids' education. 00:09:06.219 --> 00:09:16.629 Even if they are uneducated themselves, even if they are doctors and lawyers and highly educated themselves, they care about their kids' education because the consequences are very real for 00:09:16.929 --> 00:09:17.439 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: Yeah. 00:09:17.529 --> 00:09:18.819 And, and a lifetime. 00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:19.599 I, I, 00:09:19.809 --> 00:09:25.989 when I was working in, um, one district, it was a premier school district and the parents. 00:09:26.334 --> 00:09:32.184 Really didn't want their students to graduate and they wanted to keep them, you know, until they aged out and everything. 00:09:32.484 --> 00:09:34.614 And I kept saying, well, why are you doing that? 00:09:34.614 --> 00:09:38.574 Because what's gonna happen at the, at their birthday, then they're gonna sit on the couch. 00:09:38.814 --> 00:09:41.904 And that is literally what happens to some of our students. 00:09:42.384 --> 00:09:50.934 And again, we have students that I'm gonna be bold and say maybe are wrongly identified now. 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:53.739 Half a million plus students right now are, 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.579 we need to really look at that and correct this. 00:09:57.579 --> 00:09:58.689 We need to course correct. 00:09:58.689 --> 00:10:05.199 And that's what I like to work on with, with other leaders who are willing to do this because that is the work. 00:10:06.698 --> 00:10:17.438 Jethro Jones: So you talked a little bit ago about the double helix and then, um, you, you probably referenced it again later, but can you clearly describe the double helix approach and what that means in your work? 00:10:17.483 --> 00:10:25.213 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: The double helix system of support it's a replacement for the RTI and the MTSS. 00:10:26.218 --> 00:10:32.458 And because those two have been mashed together in an inappropriate way, it's still insufficient. 00:10:32.998 --> 00:10:40.558 So the double helix is a strength-based system that actually is the foundation of the school improvement process. 00:10:41.098 --> 00:10:46.798 And by that I mean there's clarity of, you know, that nimble and responsive system. 00:10:47.158 --> 00:10:52.408 That's defined growth and support and achievement are the, the goals. 00:10:52.978 --> 00:10:56.518 Um, high expectations of staff are the number one non-negotiable. 00:10:56.788 --> 00:11:02.068 You know, you can say that that's a fluffy thing, but when it walks then you know it's real. 00:11:02.098 --> 00:11:02.368 Right? 00:11:03.568 --> 00:11:07.468 Um, and accountability is measured by evidence of impact. 00:11:08.038 --> 00:11:13.858 So that's the difference because it's not that drive by of, well, I taught it. 00:11:15.043 --> 00:11:18.373 It's how do I ensure that they have learned it? 00:11:19.063 --> 00:11:21.073 And that means all students. 00:11:21.433 --> 00:11:29.143 The second component of that is the design and the actual designs feature where the staff are comprehensively situated in the classroom. 00:11:29.803 --> 00:11:35.473 And that nimble and responsive instruction and that strategy is delivered with precision. 00:11:35.473 --> 00:11:38.983 So you think about, I, I kind of like think about this in the medical term. 00:11:39.433 --> 00:11:42.193 Uh, you take a scalpel till somebody has to be precise. 00:11:42.838 --> 00:11:44.878 The same thing has to be with our instruction. 00:11:45.838 --> 00:11:47.698 Yet oftentimes it's not. 00:11:47.728 --> 00:11:50.068 It's just, well, there's the lesson. 00:11:50.428 --> 00:11:51.658 I delivered it. 00:11:51.958 --> 00:11:52.738 Here we go. 00:11:52.738 --> 00:11:58.858 Here's the activities and the data that is used to inform and monitor and adjust. 00:11:59.098 --> 00:12:01.588 Remember, it's that responsiveness real time. 00:12:02.638 --> 00:12:05.128 Indicators are used to monitor the growth. 00:12:05.638 --> 00:12:11.338 And then finally, the third piece of that, uh, strength-based system is shared accountability. 00:12:11.638 --> 00:12:13.588 So we talk a lot about special ed. 00:12:14.098 --> 00:12:25.588 I. Special ed and gen ed and everybody else, ed, ed is all working on that together because the interdependencies are anchored to the improvement process and it's called out and it's spelled out. 00:12:26.278 --> 00:12:30.088 And then the adult competencies for that are strategically supported. 00:12:30.088 --> 00:12:31.798 And that's a lot of what I do. 00:12:32.578 --> 00:12:36.298 Um, and of, again, it's delivered with precision. 00:12:36.748 --> 00:12:40.888 And then the collaborative team structure then has real. 00:12:41.263 --> 00:12:50.953 Student data, real student work samples, real ambitious instruction, um, that they can look at deeply and monitor and adjust. 00:12:51.403 --> 00:12:53.023 So it's not happenstance. 00:12:53.023 --> 00:13:01.693 It's a very precise way to make sure that, uh, if you're gonna equate tiers one, two, and three, it's within this system. 00:13:02.293 --> 00:13:08.323 So then who actually really needs to be referred for special education is accurate. 00:13:09.238 --> 00:13:13.978 Instead of the teacher saying, I don't know what else to do, they can't do it, you know? 00:13:14.878 --> 00:13:15.358 Right. 00:13:15.418 --> 00:13:16.528 It's the external. 00:13:16.618 --> 00:13:20.218 They can't versus, so how are you supporting them? 00:13:20.488 --> 00:13:21.568 What are you doing? 00:13:21.568 --> 00:13:22.708 Let's look at that. 00:13:22.888 --> 00:13:26.518 Not in an accusatory way, but a curious way. 00:13:26.578 --> 00:13:28.468 How are you supporting the student? 00:13:28.468 --> 00:13:29.368 Is it working? 00:13:29.458 --> 00:13:30.148 How do you know? 00:13:30.148 --> 00:13:31.648 What's the evidence like? 00:13:31.648 --> 00:13:33.358 That should be the conversation. 00:13:34.333 --> 00:13:34.873 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:13:34.963 --> 00:13:35.413 Yeah. 00:13:36.043 --> 00:13:39.733 So, um, I've got, I've got a bunch of questions. 00:13:39.733 --> 00:13:41.893 I know we're not gonna have time to get to all of them. 00:13:42.463 --> 00:13:52.633 Um, but I, one of the things that's so hard is accessing the data that we do have. 00:13:52.843 --> 00:13:56.893 Um, well, all right, that's one piece. 00:13:56.893 --> 00:13:59.443 Let me, let me ask this different question. 00:13:59.953 --> 00:14:08.008 Um, I. I'm, I'm really going through a struggle right now with the whole explicit direct instruction thing, 00:14:08.608 --> 00:14:14.668 and so I'm just gonna talk this through with you and try out some of my ideas and understanding. 00:14:14.668 --> 00:14:20.068 So this was not in, in any kind of prep work or anything, but this is, this is where I'm struggling. 00:14:21.418 --> 00:14:24.988 In my experience, I have seen that kids are. 00:14:26.083 --> 00:14:31.033 Even kids with disabilities are capable of learning more than we can possibly imagine. 00:14:32.263 --> 00:14:44.113 And it's incredible when we can turn them loose and and have them learn whatever in whatever way they need to, and we can follow behind and see how they can pass off standards that. 00:14:44.863 --> 00:14:48.703 Would've been very difficult to actually teach them in an explicit manner. 00:14:49.033 --> 00:15:03.883 And, and here's the thing that I'm struggling with, is explicit instruction works well when you know exactly what you want to teach and you know exactly what it looks like for them to do that well, but it doesn't work so well when. 00:15:04.558 --> 00:15:08.488 You're not sure how to evaluate whether or not they can do it. 00:15:08.848 --> 00:15:16.888 So there are specific things, and I believe the term is, um, secondary biological knowledge. 00:15:16.918 --> 00:15:21.928 Things that like we very clearly can say this is, this is what the kidneys to learn. 00:15:21.928 --> 00:15:23.278 Two plus two equals four. 00:15:23.638 --> 00:15:24.358 That's great. 00:15:26.353 --> 00:15:35.653 Where it falls down is when the students are trying to learn things that aren't within the scope of that thing that you're teaching. 00:15:36.103 --> 00:15:48.343 And so, for example, if a kid wants to know what, uh, 25 times 25 is, they're not going to have a chance to learn that until you get to that lesson with explicit instruction. 00:15:48.943 --> 00:15:52.513 And so are there, are there any drawbacks? 00:15:53.008 --> 00:15:56.218 Two using explicit instruction, or is it all just gravy? 00:15:57.343 --> 00:15:59.323 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: So I'm gonna separate a little bit. 00:15:59.353 --> 00:16:05.383 Uh, explicit instruction of the actual content should be short doses, like small doses. 00:16:05.383 --> 00:16:05.773 It should be, 00:16:05.773 --> 00:16:07.273 again, very precise. 00:16:07.873 --> 00:16:17.623 The tangential piece or the actionable piece would be coming with at, after the explicit instruction and into the activities. 00:16:17.713 --> 00:16:21.433 And so as you were talking, I, I was thinking two things. 00:16:21.643 --> 00:16:23.623 One is, you know, blooms. 00:16:24.643 --> 00:16:33.763 How you scaffold the skill for students who already have come in with some prior knowledge or some students who haven't gotten the prior knowledge. 00:16:33.943 --> 00:16:35.443 Like there's that piece of it. 00:16:35.803 --> 00:16:40.483 Um, you talk about math, I always go to mathematical representation. 00:16:40.603 --> 00:16:43.483 There are students, you're teaching it explicitly. 00:16:44.533 --> 00:16:45.828 Two plus two is four. 00:16:46.693 --> 00:16:49.783 But prior knowledge is super important, right? 00:16:50.203 --> 00:16:52.573 And sometimes students don't have language. 00:16:52.843 --> 00:16:57.103 Sometimes students, they understand it, but they can't get it out for whatever reason. 00:16:57.103 --> 00:17:00.793 Maybe some expressive language or whatever it might be, executive functioning. 00:17:01.183 --> 00:17:08.863 So there's ways within the mathematical representation for students to be able to say, well, a teacher goes, well then, you know, draw it. 00:17:09.173 --> 00:17:14.108 So you can see it or write it or some symbolically or take some manipulative. 00:17:14.108 --> 00:17:15.308 So that's another way. 00:17:15.608 --> 00:17:25.418 But the other thing that made me um, pause when you said that was, that's the work that needs to be done in those teacher-based teams. 00:17:25.778 --> 00:17:27.758 You can call 'em professional learning communities. 00:17:27.758 --> 00:17:29.138 A lot of states do PLCs. 00:17:30.148 --> 00:17:43.948 That's where you get the ideas, that deeper data, that deeper conversation of what do we want our students to learn unit by unit, and then how will we know that they've learned it? 00:17:43.948 --> 00:17:48.118 That's the answer your question about, well, it's explicit instruction. 00:17:48.118 --> 00:17:51.238 This is how I'm gonna do it, but this is how I'm gonna know that they've got it. 00:17:52.228 --> 00:17:57.928 And then what do we do for students who haven't learned it yet, I always put yet, and capitals. 00:17:58.798 --> 00:18:02.968 Because it speaks to, they can learn, they absolutely can learn. 00:18:03.388 --> 00:18:07.348 Maybe they don't learn in some other fashion, but then it's up to us to do that. 00:18:07.678 --> 00:18:10.618 And then finally, what do we do for students who've already got the skill? 00:18:10.828 --> 00:18:12.628 How do we scaffold that rigor? 00:18:12.778 --> 00:18:14.968 Same standard, right? 00:18:15.148 --> 00:18:17.008 But how do we scaffold that skill? 00:18:17.008 --> 00:18:20.188 So they're applying it in different way, in novel ways. 00:18:20.488 --> 00:18:21.658 And I think from that. 00:18:22.468 --> 00:18:27.058 That explicit instruction is, is, uh, delivered. 00:18:27.328 --> 00:18:30.868 But can I just say the other part of that spec? 00:18:31.198 --> 00:18:32.788 Special education specific. 00:18:33.298 --> 00:18:42.508 We talk about direct instruction when I work with, um, my school districts and when I was at the state level and when in my consulting. 00:18:42.508 --> 00:18:45.778 Now, I always say, well, what is the direct instruction? 00:18:45.778 --> 00:18:47.248 It should be like 15 minutes. 00:18:48.538 --> 00:18:52.438 And then you transfer that skill, you're applying that skill. 00:18:52.798 --> 00:18:59.068 So when students with disabilities are kept away from grade level, I always say, why? 00:18:59.758 --> 00:19:05.548 But maybe the teacher needs to work with that student very explicitly, very directly. 00:19:05.968 --> 00:19:10.858 But then they need to be able to pivot to the greater classroom and say, and this is how you need to apply it. 00:19:11.488 --> 00:19:16.258 And then you're practicing it and you're working with the general education grade level team. 00:19:16.603 --> 00:19:23.203 To say these are some accommodations, but this is how they're gonna actually show that they've mastered that skill. 00:19:23.863 --> 00:19:42.763 So explicit instruction isn't something that's just, you know, pie in the sky, but what I have noticed is that many people, even special ed teachers, really don't understand explicit instruction because they'll write it in an IEP as the length of a class. 00:19:44.143 --> 00:19:51.553 Versus what is the skill and what will it take to do that skill explicitly? 00:19:51.913 --> 00:19:53.563 And then generalization, 00:19:54.568 --> 00:19:55.048 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:19:55.108 --> 00:20:02.878 Well, and I, I appreciate this because you're the first person who's articulated in a way that I can understand and get behind it. 00:20:02.938 --> 00:20:08.008 I don't, I don't think that explicit instruction is bad or direct instruction is bad. 00:20:08.428 --> 00:20:10.198 I just think that it is limiting. 00:20:10.918 --> 00:20:24.328 It puts a cap on, which you just said is by design, because you're focused on that one specific skill, which I, I agree with and I can get behind in that regard because, um, because that's by design. 00:20:24.328 --> 00:20:29.428 It is that way and, and it's for when you want to teach a very specific thing. 00:20:29.428 --> 00:20:36.508 And, and the reality is, is that our kids can and should be learning all the time. 00:20:37.318 --> 00:20:42.058 All of that learning should be valued and quote unquote credited. 00:20:42.478 --> 00:20:57.598 And what I mean by that is if a student shows that they know how to do the thing that you're doing the explicit instruction on, then you really should not, in my opinion, you should not force them to sit through that if they already know how to do it. 00:20:57.733 --> 00:20:57.793 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: A 00:20:57.793 --> 00:20:58.633 hundred percent. 00:20:58.813 --> 00:20:59.653 A hundred percent. 00:21:00.568 --> 00:21:00.958 Jethro Jones: Alright. 00:21:01.123 --> 00:21:03.973 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: why I said the scaffolding is super important, but 00:21:03.973 --> 00:21:07.243 teachers need to be having that ready lesson. 00:21:07.273 --> 00:21:08.593 They need to have the stretch. 00:21:09.448 --> 00:21:09.928 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:21:09.988 --> 00:21:10.378 Yeah. 00:21:10.858 --> 00:21:26.548 Well, and here's, here's the other piece of that is if you take it how you just said that it's 15 minutes of explicit instruction, then that's different than the whole entire year, the whole entire curriculum, which is typically how people, um, approach it. 00:21:26.578 --> 00:21:32.848 And so now I need to read with a new eye, the things that people are saying about that because, um. 00:21:33.508 --> 00:21:43.168 Because I see that as, as unintentionally dampening what kids can learn and how they can grow by saying, this is what we're going to learn. 00:21:43.468 --> 00:21:45.388 And, and that's it basically. 00:21:45.598 --> 00:21:48.448 And, and that's a tragedy for. 00:21:48.853 --> 00:21:54.343 For all students who, who may not be ready for that, that stuff just yet. 00:21:54.373 --> 00:22:12.613 So, real quick example, just to explain this, um, my daughter with Down Syndrome had on her IEP for years, literally years, stuff about telling time and about counting money and finally I said, look, this is not working. 00:22:13.393 --> 00:22:15.793 I don't care if she doesn't know how to do this. 00:22:15.853 --> 00:22:19.213 Let's focus on some other skills related to math and numbers. 00:22:19.213 --> 00:22:31.663 And maybe someday this will make sense, but right now what we're doing is not working and it's pointless for us to put this on her IEP yet again, that she's gonna do this and then have her fail it yet again. 00:22:32.173 --> 00:22:36.433 And even in those situations where we know exactly what she needs to learn. 00:22:37.288 --> 00:22:41.848 Uh, we still can't chunk it down small enough for her to find success with it. 00:22:42.178 --> 00:22:55.648 Now, that's a very specific example, but that belies the problem with this whole thing, that if the kid's not capable in that moment of learning that thing, then you've got to do something else and move on. 00:22:55.648 --> 00:23:03.418 You can't send them to the same, through the same curriculum four years in a row, hoping that that one time it's gonna finally work. 00:23:04.048 --> 00:23:10.498 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: Well, you just, uh, encapsulated, um, all my conversations with frustrated parents. 00:23:11.333 --> 00:23:11.623 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:23:12.828 --> 00:23:26.803 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: yeah, and, and even when I was a teacher, um, I taught K through six special ed, and it came to a point of, it was analog clocks versus digital clocks. 00:23:26.803 --> 00:23:34.243 I said, listen, if you can't figure out analog, we're gonna go to digital, but you have to understand the concept of AM and pm. 00:23:34.633 --> 00:23:37.153 Like, and we worked through that. 00:23:37.363 --> 00:23:40.393 Another example, money a hundred percent. 00:23:40.603 --> 00:23:47.533 If money's not your thing, let's get the calculator out, but you have to understand how to input to get to the answer. 00:23:47.743 --> 00:23:48.823 That was my thing. 00:23:49.333 --> 00:23:52.693 Uh, shoe time you have, that was the big thing. 00:23:52.693 --> 00:23:54.373 You know, parents wanted their kids to tie shoes. 00:23:54.373 --> 00:23:59.263 I said, you know, there's Velcro and slip on at the end of, at the end of fifth grade, we're moving on. 00:24:00.028 --> 00:24:02.038 Right, but that's the daring to dare. 00:24:02.038 --> 00:24:06.358 You have to be bold enough to say this is in the interest of the student, right? 00:24:06.748 --> 00:24:19.648 I have many stories of parents who, um, in high school, to your point, working on numbers and money and time when it is organically not accessible to them. 00:24:20.548 --> 00:24:29.878 And so they wanna continue on past high school, you know, to the 21 or 24, whatever the age is to work on the exact same thing. 00:24:29.878 --> 00:24:34.558 And I'd say, well, so you're gonna do it slower and louder and magically they're gonna get it. 00:24:34.948 --> 00:24:35.728 Like, why? 00:24:35.908 --> 00:24:42.658 What are you doing to prepare the child, the adult child, for life beyond school? 00:24:43.498 --> 00:24:52.738 And even at the preschool level, 'cause I created a lot of integrated and supervised, um, uh, peer mentor preschool programs. 00:24:52.738 --> 00:25:00.298 I said, your student will only be a child for a very short amount of time, and that they're gonna be adults a whole lot longer. 00:25:00.298 --> 00:25:05.818 So our job is to prepare them, not in a passive way, but in a very active way. 00:25:06.718 --> 00:25:07.018 Jethro Jones: Yeah. 00:25:07.018 --> 00:25:18.058 Well, and that is the, the argument that I've been making for years that school should prepare kids to be adults, should not, should not prepare them for the next grade. 00:25:18.118 --> 00:25:23.398 You're way too shortsighted, should not prepare them for graduation or college. 00:25:23.428 --> 00:25:25.708 It should prepare them for adult life. 00:25:25.978 --> 00:25:29.548 And, and so a lot of things that. 00:25:31.048 --> 00:25:39.988 You know, that we think are important, turn out to be not as important when, when we recognize that we're preparing them for life. 00:25:41.165 --> 00:25:42.965 alright, well this, this was awesome. 00:25:43.025 --> 00:25:49.295 Uh, once again, the book is called Radically Excellent School Improvement, keeping Students at the Center of It All. 00:25:49.545 --> 00:25:57.135 And you can get that@edpolicyconsulting.com or uh, it's by Corwin, so on their website also. 00:25:57.465 --> 00:26:00.195 Um, but ed policy consulting.com is Kate's website. 00:26:00.195 --> 00:26:01.935 Any other way that you want people to reach out to 00:26:02.110 --> 00:26:02.290 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: you? 00:26:02.290 --> 00:26:10.330 know they can email me at kate@edpolicyconsulting.com, my website, they can call me (440) 00:26:10.330 --> 00:26:18.970 554-1789. I want to work with you so you can be the best school district for your students. 00:26:20.105 --> 00:26:20.585 Jethro Jones: Awesome. 00:26:20.585 --> 00:26:21.155 So good. 00:26:21.155 --> 00:26:23.375 Thank you so much for being part of Transformative principle. 00:26:23.375 --> 00:26:24.875 Kate, this was excellent talking to 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:25.240 Kate Anderson Foley, PhD: Thank you. 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:25.810 so much.