Jethro D. Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I am your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Welcome to Transformative Principle.
I am so excited for my conversation today.
I've got Mike Caldwell here from Linked Leaders, and uh, he is awesome.
Uh, let me, let me just set the stage a little bit.
Uh, so Mike, um, created this thing called Linked Leaders, which is a way for people to get mentoring as school leaders.
Uh, essentially from the person they need it when they need it, which I think is just a great idea.
As you know, I've been coaching principals for the last, uh, 10 years almost.
And um, and typically I enter into long-term things with people, but what I do the most of is people say, Hey, I've got this question and I need some help.
Can you work with me on this?
And, uh, we do a 30 minute call and a lot of times that just solves their problem.
And what Mike's done is created a group where you can go get those, uh, those problems answered.
And is that, is that a good enough summary, Mike?
What, what else would you add there?
Mike Caldwell: I think so.
I mean, I think the people I talk to, uh, when I share this idea that what immediately clicks for them.
'em, um, and maybe this is the mentality of a principal and kind of what they need.
They're like, oh, it's teletherapy for, for school leaders.
I was like, yeah, that's kind of what it is.
, I mean,
Jethro D. Jones: you go.
Mike Caldwell: yeah, it's, it's real time kind of on demand mentoring and coaching and, and, and or therapy depending on what the principal needs.
And as a former, as we both know, as, as former school leaders, um.
Sometimes you just need to talk to somebody that has been in your shoes and understand your pain, and, and you can commiserate and hopefully come out of it, um, with a clear head and kind of new hope.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, and, and two things I would add.
Number one, it's not actually therapy, so don't, don't get it twisted folks.
Mike Caldwell: Thank you.
Jethro D. Jones: not actually therapy and we're not claiming that it is.
Um, but, but also you, you often need somebody who's not connected to all the politics that are going on in your school district or your school because they're real.
And sometimes you, well, not sometimes, often you get clouded by that, and it's really difficult to not be clouded by that.
And the, the thing that I hear most often from people that I'm coaching is.
It is, it is so helpful to have someone who's not in all the drama of what's going on, so you can just cut to the real issue instead of, you know, when somebody, somebody will come up to me with a problem and they'll give like this 15 minute exposition of what the problem is.
And I'll be able to say, the real problem is you didn't communicate expectations clearly six months ago.
And they're like, oh my gosh, you're right.
And the only reason I can see that, that they can't is 'cause I'm not sucked into all the drama and being a detached observer who only cares about the success of the person that I'm talking to and their real success, not the
Not the artificial or superficial success, but their real deep success.
Uh, I, I can have those insights very easily.
Um, what would you add to that, Mike?
Mike Caldwell: Hundred percent of what you're saying.
And first of all, I'm glad you clarified that.
It
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah,
Mike Caldwell: that tongue in cheek and, and you're, you're a hundred percent right.
Uh, yeah.
You know when to one, one, we all know school leaders don't, I mean, don't have the luxury of time, so.
We, we can't waste time here, right?
So you gotta get right to like, what, what are the, what are the challenges?
And, and without beating around the bush, like kind of really dive into the weeds together and figure out what can we do to, to mitigate or support some of those challenges.
I would add to, to what you said this element of, of, um, of safety in, in a place where you can go and be real.
Within, sometimes you have that with, with the team that you're around or within your district.
But oftentimes, and I heard this a lot from, from female leaders that I was talking to as I was developing this concept and kind of working on different, um, working groups and, and focus groups to kind of build this idea.
But what I heard most often from female school leaders is they don't feel like they can afford to be vulnerable.
In the workplace, whether it's with their peers or with their boss.
And it's especially, they felt especially true and for, for, for females and to have, and I've worked with a lot of great female administrators, which has been phenomenal and I've learned a lot from them.
Um, but there is this kind of, um, you know, beauty in creating a safe place where it's not anonymous, but it's a place where you're not gonna be
You don't feel, feel being judged by someone in your district or in your school.
You can go and be really vulnerable and real, and there's a lot of power in that.
Um, and that's kind of the, the, the focus and what we're trying to build is a safe place to, for peers to meet.
And, uh, you don't have to work, work through different challenges and, and, and get better as leaders.
Jethro D. Jones: I don't love everything that Brene Brown says, but one of the things that I really like is that she uses the phrase brave space instead of safe space.
And what I really appreciate about that is that I. It, it's a place that enables you to be brave rather than a place that enables you to feel safe.
'cause there, there are differences there, right?
Safe means nothing, nothing bad can happen here.
Brave means something bad might still happen.
I may get embarrassed, but I can still take that risk.
And, and that's one thing that I really appreciate about that and what I try to create in my, uh, coaching situations with principals is you can say where you screwed up here.
And nobody's gonna attack you over it.
But you can't always say that in a, in your district or in with your peer colleagues that are close to you.
Um, it, it can be really tough to say what's really going on.
It can be tough to say that maybe you screwed up or that you're not sure of what the right answer is.
And there can be judgment, there can be repercussions.
Um, there can be situations where . Uh, you saying one thing in a, in a, in a meeting or with a group of people could lead to later the superintendent saying, I won't even consider this person for this other position because of that thing you said, trying to be vulnerable, but
Uh, not, not being aware that that vulnerability was gonna harm you later on, uh, without you even knowing it.
And, and so that's another reason why it's good to have someone detached.
What else would you add there?
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
I was recently working with a elementary school principal over in the, in the northeast, um, part of the US and you know, she's part of a large district and is . In her third year, kind of going through the growing pains, she's, she's dealing with some significant challenges within, within her school, um, that I don't envy, but she works with, I mean, in their district, there's, I think eight other elementary school principals, so I.
On the surface, she would say, well, she has eight peers that she can go and reach out to that are going through similar things that are that, and that was my first thought when I'm talking to her is like, what, how often do you reach out to, to these peers?
And uh.
In that particular environment.
Environment.
I know it's not the case in all, in all districts, but in, in that particular environment, she said, no, that's one of the last things I'll do.
I did that once and my hand was slapped by the district saying, why wouldn't you come to us?
And then I was judged by other school leaders because I asked this question.
So she just shut down, hunker down, and has been kind of working in, in isolation really, um, over the last year or so because she got burned by . Seeking help.
Um, so I, I think it's a real challenge.
Yeah.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, it, it is a real challenge and I've heard that story hundreds of times over the last decade of working with principals and
Mike Caldwell: and what was cool is through this, through this Link leaders, um, know, I, after talking to her, I was like, C come on onto this.
You know, I can, I can recommend a couple of the leaders.
You know, we have 25 or so different, different mentors from all over the country on, on here.
And, um.
Recommend a couple that, but you can choose who you, who you wanna meet with.
And she met with, um, one of our mentors from Oklahoma, and they only met for 30 minutes.
Um, but she sent me this, this really nice text in how just in 30 minutes she felt, um, both affirmed, empowered, and had kind of a clear path.
To tackle some of the challenges that she was she was dealing with.
Now, I don't think, you know, nothing, there's no silver bullet here.
There's, you know, there's still gonna be challenges that you're dealing with, but if you can go get that in 30 minutes in a, in a brave space where you can really share your challenges, um, I just think there's a lot of power in, in, in peer-to-peer mentoring, and so I'm happy to, to be able to connect people that, that, that need it.
Jethro D. Jones: And, and Mike, this is so key because you, anybody sitting in the chair of a principal knows how you're pulled in so many different ways that the board wants one thing, the superintendent wants another.
The, uh, sometimes the superintendent and the border pitting you, uh, against each other and they're using you as a pawn.
Uh, parents are doing the same thing.
Teachers are doing the same thing.
Students have another different need and like you are literally pulled in so many different directions and it can feel incredibly lonely and isolating.
And that is the thing that I hear most often from principals, that despite what supports may be in place, despite what supports they do have, they often just feel lonely and that, um, districts can do a great job, but at the same time, like, like you said, uh.
Asking the wrong question.
Can have repercussions that you don't even know about.
And, and I don't, I do not think that people are like out there intentionally saying and doing awful things to get principals in trouble, but they're seeing a different picture.
And so what somebody says or asks could be seen in a different light and you don't always know.
As the principal, what those things look like.
And so you may have a very supportive, uh, network around you, and that's great, but sometimes you still need, uh, an outside perspective.
And, and one of the things that I tell the people that I coach is I'm, I'm here to help you be a better person.
Overall.
And so I'm like, even if, even if the district hires me like I am here to help you as a person holistically, not just, you know, help you become a better principal.
And I've had to coach many people out of their jobs and say, this isn't the right place for you.
You're never gonna succeed here because they keep setting you up for failure and.
Uh, a lot of times people don't see that and they're not aware of it, and then later, once they're out, they're like, I can't believe how great my new district is.
Like, none of this stuff is happening.
And, and it is, it's scary to make that leap.
And it's not all doom and gloom, don't get me wrong, but some people just, you know, if you've been in the same district for your whole career, you just don't know.
What else is going on?
Uh, even if you've been in different districts as a teacher and then you're a principal in a different place, you, you just, uh, you don't always see the bigger picture.
So having somebody else to talk with and, and give additional support is really, really beneficial.
I.
Mike Caldwell: Absolutely.
You know, and, and we really have, you know, a retention problem at the, at the school leadership level.
Right.
Um, you know, there's been, I dunno what the most recent study study is, but you know, a few years back, na um, nas, national Association of SEC Secondary School Principals did a pretty comprehensive study on, on principal retention.
And at that time, you know, they talked about one in six principals leave their school each year.
I mean, annually, one in six.
Um, and that's even more in, in high poverty schools.
And that, um, a recent stat, stat that I, I le read is, you know, one in one and two or 50% of, of principals are, are considering leaving their job each year just due to the stress.
Um, I, I was reading, uh, just skimming through some of the Facebook groups that are, you know, principal based Facebook groups and I came across this one, uh, this morning.
I. The, the, the quote or the, the prompt was anyone else feeling this?
And it's exhaustor, reformulated, um, , which is an adjective That means the feeling of being exhausted, overwhelmed, and overstimulated all at once.
Um, and for any of us that have wore, wore the hat as a principal, you feel exhaust ord just about all the time.
It's, it's a challenging job and I don't think there is a. I'm convinced, um, we should have a debate on here sometime, like, what is the hardest job in the world?
And I would put high school principal or just principal in general, but I think high school principals have it.
The, the toughest, um, I. And, and I'm biased there, but, uh, I think it might be the hardest job that there is.
And so there is no, no surprise to me that there is a retention problem.
Um, and with that, I think there's a quality problem because you can't be the best at everything and you are expected to be the best at everything and all the things that you juggle and, and all those types of things.
Um, so.
Time is a huge factor, and that's why I go back to this, this on demand, um, mentorship kind of on your schedule.
And, and that is, uh,
I don't have a lot of time.
I can't go, I don't, I don't have the luxury of going for, you know, sitting in a eight hour workshop and hopefully, hopefully coming away with, you know, 10%.
You know, of takeaways from, from that, from that information that's gonna make me better as a leader.
Some of those are great, but really what I need is I'm struggling with this issue, or I need to get better at X and uh, I know I can go connect with somebody tomorrow.
I. That is really good at X and I'm gonna go spend an hour with them and, uh, I'll be better at the end of that, that hour because it's targeted to what I need right now and, uh, and needs change, right?
I mean, I think that's a thing that's powerful with me.
Mentorship is whether you're a first year principal.
Or a tenure year principal, you're always learning.
Right?
That was my tagline, and it still is, and all my, all my emails always learning because you evolve and, and there's always new things that are gonna be challenging you as a, as a school leader.
And so having a good mentor that can kind of help pull you along and, and push you along, I think is really important.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, absolutely.
And, and like you said, I, I want to key in on that point of, uh, needs change over time.
And sometimes you don't know the actual problem that you have, and other times you have a, a really clear idea.
Idea and understanding of like, this is exactly what the problem is.
And, and what's cool is that in these, uh, situations where, where you've set up this place for people to come and, and get that support is you can, uh.
You can find, you can find whatever it is that you need, wherever, wherever you're at.
And, and that's the beauty of the, the network effect of social media and online presence and things like that, that, you know, if, if you, if you have a specific issue, you can go find someone who's probably had that issue also.
And that's exactly how I've used this podcast for my whole career.
You know, we're going on, um.
12 years now and, and I just ask the problems that either I'm facing as a principal, or since I'm not a principal anymore, I'm asking the problems that my principals are facing and that they're coming to me with saying, what do I do here?
And then I go find someone who can answer it and then I figure it out and then I send 'em a link to the podcast and say, Hey.
I gave you my advice when we met, but here's this other thing, and maybe this can help, and I think that's such a beautiful thing about the world that we live in now, is that you can get help from, from so many different people in so many different ways, which I just think is amazing.
So, uh, tell us how, yeah, please go
Mike Caldwell: me add to that before we ask your next question too, because I think sometimes, um, and I, I, I. You know, I've been guilty of this is, I think it's really, there's a lot of power and curiosity as well, and.
In seeking differences in how, how things are done.
Maybe in the same, in the same, you know, same, same job, but looking at, at, at different ways to, to do it.
And I think sometimes, you know, I'm in, in Idaho and you, and I've been in Idaho my whole career, and you sometimes you get, you know, get, might get trapped into thinking this is how all education is done.
Right.
And, uh, what, what the beauty is.
On this, on this platform too, is you can go connect with school leaders that have worked in international schools, in private schools, charter schools across the country, in different places in the world.
And if you're just curious about doing things different or trying new things or getting fresh ideas on, on old stuff.
Man, there is a wealth of opportunity in this where I'm just gonna go on a curiosity hunt, right?
I'm gonna go and talk to somebody about how they schedule their week, you know, for example, and or how they handle X, Y, or Z, right?
And to go and, and talk to somebody that's in a completely different kinda landscape, but still is leading a school.
Um, there could be a lot of power in that as well.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
Well, and you know, that, that gets to the point of like, what does this look like for someone?
Where do they go and what, what do they get, uh, when they become part of Linked Leaders?
What and, and what kind of people are you looking for?
I.
Mike Caldwell: So the type of people we're looking for, for mentors and and coaches?
Is that what you're looking, or you're talking about mentees?
Jethro D. Jones: Both is what I'm looking for.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, so, so on the me mentor side, obviously people that, um, you know, have had, had enough experience, whether they're still leading a school or, you know, or they could be in the district office, but they have been, been in the, the, the big seat, if you will, and, and wore the hat as a school leader I think is really important.
Um.
, but somebody also that just has a genuine, um, kind of authentic drive to give back and to support, um, those that, um, you are either less experienced in their, in their career or are just looking for support and, and guidance.
So somebody that has that kind of drive and and mentality to, to give back.
Um.
Then obviously, you know, somebody that, from a, from a character standpoint is, is willing to listen first and understand kind of what, as opposed to someone that just wants to tell you everything that they know, you know, because a mentee doesn't come just to get.
You know, talked to or told how to do things.
Um, it's, it's a conversation that you have and, and it starts with the mentor really keying in on and listening like you, like you said, you know, this person described their, their whole problem and you zeroed in on, on, on the issue and help them kind of uncover that where they were maybe . Glossing over it or, or, or not seeing it themselves, but you had to be a, a, a, a listener first and, and, and an empathetic listener.
Right.
And with, without, without judgment.
And so those are the kind of qualities that we're looking for.
I don't think it's, it's necessarily they have to have, you know, this certificate or this, you know.
But I think when you go to the coaching level, um, where, you know, and there is a difference between mentoring, coaching, um,
There's more of a skillset there.
Um, and there's different, you know, entities that, that provide training and things like that for, for that.
But, um, you know, the mentoring is kind of more reading and reacting and coaching is kind of guiding through kind of a, towards a, towards a goal and, and kind of shepherding that person along towards, towards their goals.
So those are the kind of people we're looking for.
Um, right now we have a really good.
You know, base of, of individuals that, um, are eager to support and help anybody that comes, comes in.
So, on the mentee side, you know, I think there's, if you're, if you're leading a school and you could look me dead in the eye and say, I am, I got it all together.
I don't need help.
I don't need support.
Um.
You're one of the very , you're the 1% or you're just flat out lying.
Right?
So I think there's, if you're in a school leadership level and, and, and I think, I think you're probably needing some support in some capacity.
Um, but what we're looking for is people that actually want to do something about it, right?
It's, it's one thing to be miserable and drowning and is exhaust ord.
Um, but it's another thing to say.
But what am I gonna do to take care of myself so that I can be a better leader to support my, my students to my faculty, my staff, um, you know, and, and mentorship and, and, and getting that kind of support as part of it.
But sleeping and eating and exercise and all those types of things obviously are super important as well.
Balancing, you know, your work life and, and those types of things.
But, but taking care of yourself professionally, um, so that you can better take care of other people.
So I think there's a lot of people that need help.
But we're looking for the people that need help and are also willing to do something about it.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah.
And, and that, that's so key because, um, you, you gotta take the action, right?
You.
I I talk to a lot of people who are like learning constantly and never actually taking the action that they need to.
And, and that's something that's just, you gotta be able to take action and, and it's easy to ask for help.
It's easy to, um, to ask for advice and to hear what people have to say.
It's easy to research and it's easy to make that busyness of researching and learning look like you're actually doing something, but that's not always.
Uh, the what's gonna move the needle, you gotta actually take action.
So that's one of the things that I ask in each of my coaching calls is, what, what are you gonna do?
What's the action you're gonna take and what are you gonna report back on next time?
And, um, I often will schedule emails or schedule texts to follow up with people right then and there.
And say, how'd you do on this thing?
And, and that's a really good little trick that I have that, um, that lets them know I'm gonna follow up and, and get some, some answers.
So, uh, my last question is, what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a transformative principle like you, Mike?
Mike Caldwell: Wow.
Um,
I think just not settling for where you are today, regardless of where you are.
Um, you know, whether you're a brand new principal that's just trying to get your feet underneath you or you're a. 20 year veteran that, um, has seen probably anything and everything that's, that's come your way is be curious to keep learning and growing regardless of where you are in your, in your, in your career.
And, um, I. There's so many opportunities to, to, to be curious.
There's a lot of opportunities out there and, uh, I think one of the best is, is when you can go and learn from, from other people.
Um, and, and not just other people that have more experience than you or whatever.
I've learned a lot.
There's a, there's a particular teacher, um, in Wyoming actually that, um, I've been talking through to on this project and gosh, I've learned.
Just so much from, from from him, right?
Like, and
Jethro D. Jones: Is that
Mike Caldwell: a lot from, yeah.
It's Aaron.
Yeah.
Isn't he a fantastic dude?
Shout out to Aaron.
Jethro D. Jones: And, and, and lemme just say, let me just pump him up just a little bit.
Aaron McKey, aaron mckey.com.
Go check him out.
Um, he, he is like, he said this to me, he said, Jethro, my goal is to be the best student you've ever had.
So everything you tell me to do, I'm gonna go execute on and I'm gonna make sure, you know, and, uh.
Like six months ago I set up a podcast for him.
Um, so, 'cause he wanted to, to do one.
Uh, and he texted me this morning and said, thanks for all your help.
Here's, I finally did it.
And so it's been a lot of time where he's been planning and working and finally he released it just yesterday.
Um, future Proof University.
Or future proof you is what you'll look for in our podcast.
You should go check it out.
Great stuff that he's doing and like talk about somebody who takes action and does the stuff.
Uh, sorry to interrupt, but just had to say that.
It's good
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I, I wasn't sure if I should say his name.
Or not.
I'm glad you did, because
Jethro D. Jones: I'll shout him out.
. Yeah.
Mike Caldwell: But, but yeah, but I think it's, it's, it's that, it's like be curious, be willing to, to talk to people and learn.
There's a lot of things you can learn from just about anybody.
And, uh, I think it's just, just being willing to be curious and, uh, and always seeking to learn and gr and grow.
I mean, I know that's maybe cliche, but I don't know.
I, I believe that.
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, I, I think that's awesome.
Um, so somebody's interested in, uh, getting a mentor.
How do they connect with link leaders?
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely.
Easy, easy.
Um, if you go to link leaders.com, um, one of the first buttons you'll see is, is start a free trial.
And so.
It will take two minutes or less to click that button and set up your profile.
And within that you have seven days to go access any and all of our mentors and coaches that are on the site, um, at no cost.
And, uh, I think that that will be proof in the pudding after that.
Um, it's, it's pretty clear on, on how you can subscribe and, and, and continue access with any of our mentors.
So, um, it's easy.
Just, just go to the site and learn a little bit about it.
But, uh, in, in one click you can access, right?
I think there's 26 different mentors from all over the world right now,
Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, it, it's awesome.
Good stuff.
Um,
Mike Caldwell: and Jetro Jones is one of them,
Jethro D. Jones: let's go
Mike Caldwell: I'm excited.
. That's right.
Jethro D. Jones: go.
Yeah.
And, uh, I, I would love to be one of those people that you reach out to for part of that free trial.
That would be awesome.
Uh, but there's a lot of other great people on there, so find someone that you need.
That's the beauty of it.
And you know, I, I talked to a lot of people and I'm always like, man, I wish I came up with this.
Why didn't I think of this?
And this is one of those ideas.
So when you brought it to me, I was like, you know, I want to do what I can to . Support you in this and, and be there and, uh, be part of it.
And it's a lot of fun and it's been a lot of fun watching you build it and make it happen.
So, uh, that's pretty, pretty exciting too.
Mike Caldwell: And I appreciate you and all the people that are, that are part of this.
'cause it's certainly not a me thing, it's a we thing.
Um, it wouldn't happen without great people.
And, and you are one of 'em.
And so I appreciate that.
You know, and it, I, I love it 'cause it's so simple.
I mean, it's just like so dumb simple.
Like, you go and, and, and sign up.
You go find the person, you, you're interested, learn a little bit about 'em, and then you just click.
Like two buttons.
Book a session, find their look at their schedule and when they're available and match that when you're, you're available.
You click a, a time that you wanna meet with them and, and you're connected.
And it's, it's all built in.
There's no back and forth emails that you have to worry about.
Um, and so it's a, it's a super simple way just to get connected with other people, which I'm super excited about.
Jethro D. Jones: It's awesome.
Uh, this was a great conversation, Mike.
Thank you so much.
Everybody.
Go check out linked leaders.com.
There's a link to that in the show notes@transformativeprinciple.org, and we'll see you next time on the Transformative Principle podcast.