Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Debbie.
I'm absolutely delighted to have you here.
It was long overdue and I'm glad we're here.
Debbie: No, I'm so excited to be in any place where you are at.
Anke, you, you, you're just a fabulous human being.
So
Anke: happy to be awesome.
Thank you.
Uh, but well, today the spotlight's on you, so let people know where
in this lovely world you are and what's your business with dogs.
Debbie: So I'm in West Hartford, Connecticut, in, in, um, the States.
And um, I am, my shirt says certified canine life coach.
Um, and another life I used to counsel humans and I was going
to become a human life coach.
And when I was going through that and looking at my best options, I ended up
going to, um, a shelter to get a, a dog.
And instead I came home with him and his litter mate because
I couldn't leave her behind.
And these dogs had, um, stuff, you know, they were born to
a malnourished, stray mom.
Which you'll read in the future about more in my book, but, but whenever that is.
Um, but I brought them home and there were some big issues.
I hired a trainer and I was appalled at what he suggested, and
I just started reading everything.
So instead of reading, you know.
Book club books.
I was getting this book, a book about dogs and that book and some of the,
the books were horrible too, so it took me a little while to find my way
to the good folks, the kind folks.
And then instead of becoming a life coach for humans, I became a canine life coach.
So that's, that's my story, um, my short version.
But I, you know, it's just so interesting the things that you don't
notice until you, you start to notice.
And now I, I work, um.
With dogs who are fearful.
You know, lots of people call them aggressive dogs, and of course, we who
know them know that they are just trying to give themselves space and really
communicating the best that they can with what they've got to work with.
And so I always tell people who reach out to me, yes, I'm happy to
come, but my training is for you.
Hmm.
Your dog will have fun when I'm there, but you need to know that I'm going to
share things with you that are going to be big eye openers and help you to see
things in, in a really different way.
Anke: Hmm.
I love that.
Yeah.
It's interesting, like how, how, um, I have a similar experience, you know, I
didn't, didn't go the same route, but I had that same experience that when I got
my first dog, you know, from the street.
None of the staff that was recommended to me made any sense.
Right.
You know, either was cruel or was like, kind of felt stupid or just
simply didn't work, you know?
No
Debbie: cruel or so dumb.
Dumb.
Yes.
Anke: Yeah.
Yeah.
So when people hear canine coach, because I, my first question
was, so who are you coaching?
I'm like, the dog will be human, you know?
Right.
So.
I mean, I guess the human is the one who needs to understand stuff.
Right.
So what's the one, like if I was to say like out of all the clients who
come to you, what's the one thing?
Oh boy, I wish they understood this.
Debbie: Well, yesterday I went to see a client who had used another
trainer before, um, had a big dog, over a hundred pound dog.
And, um, this dog was w wearing a prong collar.
And I actually took a picture and did a post about it last night.
I don't have it with me, but the prong collar, when you take it and you
know it has like a little martingale collar too, and you hold it up.
It's literally like this, this much around.
And the prongs are sticking in.
So I put an Apple watch inside just to give some depth perception, and you could
see that it's just in the dog's neck.
Oh, and you know, this dog was five years old.
Sweet, sweet, wonderful dog.
She said that also people couldn't come in the house and she couldn't believe
that him and I made friends so quickly.
But of course we know about dog body language, right?
We know, oh, Sally, you okay?
We know, um, about good messages to send our dogs instead of the people
who come in and wanna show who's boss.
That's never a good thing, and that's what they had been experiencing.
So when we went through everything and she saw the way he responded to
me, she started to cry and she said.
I feel so horrible that he's my baby and I've been doing
this to him for five years.
So I hugged her and I told her, it's not your fault.
You were given poor advice by someone who I'm guessing, really knew
nothing about dog behavior, you know?
Um, but for me, when I have cases like that.
When I leave, I ask if they'll give me the prong color or the shot color.
And you know, one person said to me, well, you know, it is expensive.
I should just donate it.
And I said, oh, talk through the same torture.
And her, you know, she said, oh my gosh, you're right.
That's.
You know, so terrible.
So yesterday she said, I'm so happy to give it to you.
And she went and she got it and I said, it makes me so happy to be able to take this.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, and I think so I.
Is this my long answer to your question?
You know, I think the most important thing was that what you asked,
what's the most important thing?
Or what do I want people to know?
Well, what do you,
Anke: you know, what do you, what did you wish people knew?
You know, I
Debbie: want people to know that kindness always wins.
That there's never, ever, ever a good reason to do something to another
creature that doesn't feel right to you.
And if it's pain and it's intimidation, it shouldn't feel right to you.
Right?
Yeah, we, we've come so far.
Sometimes we think in this world, I don't know what's going on these days, but
you know, um, you know, we used to do things like bear baiting, um, the zoos.
Many zoos are still horrible places and we want the animals to have their freedom.
But so many certified zoos have done deep dives into what's natural for
the animals who, who live there.
And we all.
Who love dogs should be doing the same thing.
You know?
You don't want a dog that's a slave, I said to do this, dah, dah, dah.
You know?
And if not, you're going to pay the price.
Who wants that?
It's so upsetting.
Um, when people call me and they say, you know, I really want you to come
and I want, I want a strict heel.
I tell 'em, well, I don't do that.
You know?
Then you take all the joy out of the walk for the dog.
So I don't do that, but I'm happy to come and share other things with
you, which I hope will help you not to want that strict heel anymore.
Anke: You know, that's interesting because you know what, what strikes me is, is.
So if you are specializing, you kind of deal with fearful aggressive
dogs, you probably get an above average number of people who've
tried stuff like that, you know?
Yes.
Because if somebody has say, I don't know.
I've had people on the show who kind of specialize in, let's
say, separation anxiety, right?
Yeah.
So now they never talk about shock collars and stuff like
that, you know, because Right.
There's only, like, the alternative is often to pop the dog in a crate
and or, you know, or leave them to cry it out and then deal with the
scratch door, whatever, you know?
So, but they don't, but I think.
People who have a dog who, especially I have a, you know, a hundred pound dog.
Yeah.
And so it's like you kind of.
Are careful to make sure a big dog like that doesn't go crazy, you know?
So, because like right, purely for the size, you know, if people, if she was to
come, my mom is like five foot tall, like so now and she's 85 years old, I'm five
wants, you know, like she looks like 65.
But, but you know, if, if that big dog who weighs more than her, like,
you know, you kind of like make sense to make sure that she's a chill dog.
But I'm.
You know, so I can see how there would be a lot of advice.
Well, but you have to control her and, and Exactly.
You know, so, but I've seen it with this one where, you know, it was like, well.
I would not let anybody, you know, yell at her or do stupid shit.
And she's the kindest, she's two years old now, two and a half.
She is the kindest goofball you'll ever meet.
Beautiful.
You know, so it's like, 'cause
Debbie: all she's received is love.
So she trusts and she's, you know, she's relaxed.
Um, this lady told me that the trainer said to her, this
is, you need to use this.
For, for the welfare of your dog.
Anke: Yeah.
Debbie: So I just found that so ironic that, you know, for the welfare of the
dog, so what to keep the dog safe to, but, but so the dog for the welfare of
the dog, the dog should live a life of pain with these horrible things pressing
on the trachea and the, and the thyroid gland and the esophagus, you know.
Um.
It's just, it's just so sad.
And where I live, I do see a lot of people walking around with shot collars
and brawn collars, and literally, it, I make eye contact with the
dogs and I feel like they're saying, can you, can you please help me?
And it breaks my heart.
Hmm.
Makes me crazy.
Anke: Yeah.
And, and I guess you, you would need openness from the
owner to because of that.
If they're convinced that like, you know, and like, I think it's this.
Catch 22.
It's this kind of vicious cycle.
You know, the more they throttle the dog, the more anxious, the more tense the dog
will be, the more they think they need it.
Right?
So it's almost like you need somebody willing to say, well, hey, let's, it
doesn't matter how fast you run, if you're running in the wrong direction, let's
just stop here and see whether, you know,
Debbie: turned it around.
Um, I testify in, in court sometimes for dogs who have been, um.
Abused with this kind of thing.
And there was one dog, the trainer came over quickly, put two prong collars
on the dog and jerked back, and the dog took a chunk out of his arm.
So the um, right, so the police came out and they wanted to euthanize the dog.
But in court, I said, if a stranger walked into our house and did something
like that to us, I would bite them.
Right.
I mean, you're just, oh my gosh, what's happening here?
I'm trying to defend myself the best that I can.
So I always feel like dogs are held to these ridiculous standards
that we as humans would fail at ourselves over and over.
And it's just so unfair.
And people, when they hire someone, they really have to be so careful about
who they're inviting into their home.
Yeah.
And some of the things that that.
Trainers say that I've heard, um, from my clients just really
blow me out of the water.
Like, like some things are just made up and they're horrendous and it's crazy.
It's crazy.
Anke: Yeah.
It's, I don't know.
It's like, so what?
Like how do you Actually that reminds me, I had a conversation
with somebody once and she was.
I think she just sort of finished.
Like a dog training qualification, you know?
And she'd been told by people in her town where she lives, like,
no girl, that ain't gonna work.
You know?
Because she said, well, there's, all the trainers here are balanced trainers.
Right?
And they weren't gonna.
Accept her.
Right.
And I'm like, well, at least you could teach, you can speak to all the women
who go don't wanna go to these blogs.
Right, right, right.
Do you think it's a gender thing?
I mean, I've had men on the show who've, who are totally kindness
first, so I'm not saying right,
Debbie: right know, but there's
Anke: a lot of, there seems to be a bit of a deloit, very,
Debbie: very kind men.
But there are, I can tell you just in my area, um, there are many, many more men.
Who teach that you have to be a force with your dog.
Than women.
Hmm.
Anke: Because it often feels to me like men look for control
and women look for connection.
Debbie: Right, right.
You knows are different species.
And I think you're right.
I think there is something there.
And luckily we have the men who are, yeah.
Are not like that.
And, and then we have some women that are unfortunately,
um, looking for that obedience.
You know, I don't even like the word,
Anke: I don't like it either.
No, I, it's like you would want it for your children, right?
Debbie: You would not.
And you know, when I, again, when I go to a home and someone will say,
well, you know, I've been working on the, the come command, and the first
thing I always say is, you know.
How about we talk about a recall queue?
Mm-hmm.
And doesn't that sound so much better because.
Nobody wants to be bossed around, ordered around.
You know, we want a relationship, we want a loving and caring
relationship, and, and truly nobody can move forward in a relationship
unless there's trust and love.
You know, we, we just can't.
People who say, well, look at my dog is so obedient and, and perfect in every
situation, but when I look at this dog and the head's low and the tail's low.
And, and the eyes are dull.
It, it breaks my heart.
Anke: Yeah.
And when the, I mean, I remember seeing one in, in Granada where I used to
live this guy, like, well, he basically took a dog trainer course and it
was literally, you know, dog whisper mini me kind of Spanish versions.
Yes.
You know, and so you could tell, I mean, you just like
hear the, and kicks like, yeah.
You kind of know where they're going, you know?
And he adopted a.
You know, traumatized.
Like the poor dog was like, you know, and he would not, he says, oh, he's
really, he does really, he gets really anxious when there's like a lot of people.
Then he says, oh yeah, I trained that out.
Like, yep, that's sorted.
He basically went where there was like a, um, you know, Easter procession
where there's like people on people, like he basically flooded that dog.
He went there and took him, and then initially he was like, whatever.
And then he, you could see like, I saw him afterwards and he was literally like, he
just given up on life, you know, and he would look how nice and calm he is, right?
And it's like, makes me want to, yeah, it's like.
Debbie: Uh, I took, um, my applied animal behavior classes through, um,
it's University of Washington, and my professors were just like, amazing.
It was, it was just amazing.
But one of my classmates is a fabulous lady who works with Cane
Corso, and she said that never ever, ever would she use any.
Thing that was intimidating or painful.
But you know, since she works with those dogs, she sees that all the time that,
um, it seems to be so many people feel like the bigger the dog, the more you
have to enforce who's large and in charge.
And it, it doesn't matter the size, it doesn't matter the breed.
Dogs are so social, and we are, and everybody's just
looking for that connection.
Yeah.
There's trying to get so cute.
Get himself famous.
Anke: Very cute.
Have you got an example, um, where somebody came to you kind of starting
out sort of argue, like, you know, have you seen people change their mind?
Debbie: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
I, I, I mean, I've cried with people, um.
I feel like many people use these balance trainers and then
it's, it's not working, you know?
Um, some people, they say their dog's aggressive, which, you know, I, I
don't even really like that word, but I know people use it, um, to explain
what's going on sometimes, but.
So they call in this person who has them shocking and jerking, a prong
collar, and things are getting worse.
So we have one or the other.
We have either the dog that gives up and shuts down and says, this is just my life.
There's nothing I can do or say when I'm saying I'm
uncomfortable, nobody's listening.
Or there's the dog that says.
What in the world I, this is not okay.
You other dog cause me pain.
You little boy cause me pain and these dogs I have to get you before you get me.
Right?
It's, it's terrible, but it makes sense.
You understand it.
So then these people will call me and say, you know, I heard about you.
I worked with this person who told me to do this, this, and this, but it
seems as though it's getting worse.
And I say.
Of course it is.
And I'm sorry, but we're gonna have fight or flight here and I'll explain
it all to you and then I explain it all.
And you know, again, many times people are, are just crying and I hug them
and I cry too because I, it, I feel so bad about what the dog has endured,
you know, in the name of training and I really have to believe that.
People, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't hire the doctor that doesn't
take his boards every two years.
Why is that?
Because things change, right?
If you're still cutting off people's legs because you didn't know that penicillin
was invented, which stops an infection,
well, I don't wanna hire you.
Right?
Yeah, for sure.
So there's these trainers that are pushing things that once.
Was thought to be the only way.
You know, even like when the clickers came out, um, it was one of the
first times where people said, oh, you can, you can work with a dog
in a way that's not hurting them or, or doing anything negative.
I like to just use the word yes because I like that personal connection and I
want the dog to hear that I'm happy.
You know, um, but, but it's all about connection.
It's all about relationship, and that's gotta be the most important
thing to be able to have the companion that you want, because I.
You want a dog that you can bring places.
Yeah.
But the dog to go places has to feel safe with you and, and
then there's some dogs like him.
He's just never gonna be comfortable going places.
And that's okay.
Could I put a shot collar on him and say, you better go here or other, you know?
Sure.
But how horrible would that be?
So he trusts me.
Huh.
And, um, you know, he, his world is small, but it's, it's wonderful.
It's wonderful.
And then I have my other girl, she's somewhere, I don't know where she went.
And she loves to say hi to everybody.
So you have to look at the dog in front of you.
Yeah.
You know, and do what's right for the dog.
You can't fix a dog into, to make them into someone.
They're not.
Right.
Yeah.
Some of us are introverts, some of us are extroverts, and you know, if
um, my husband doesn't wanna I go to the party down the street, well then
I'm gonna say, okay babe, I'll go down and I'll be back in a few hours.
'cause he's more of a introvert.
Anke: Yeah.
I mean, it makes, it makes so much sense and I think it's this letting
go of looking at the dog like a.
A toy or a tool or you know, like it's, I mean, that's like, in Spain it's really,
oh, you know, really it's this traditional like, oh, the dog needs to serve.
Like it's, it's for protection or it's a toy for the kids and you know, so it's
that the dog needs, like buy a plush toy.
Right.
You know, just because if you look at the dog as another soul, you
know, another, another being who.
Who is more comfortable wanting, and there you are, another who has trauma
and whatever and has their life and is just looking for that connection.
Like, you will never do this, these things, you know?
But if you think it's like, oh, well, you know, he's gotten too big now and
whatever, or like he's not, I don't know.
There's.
You hear them when it's like, well, yeah, but if I'm police, oh, I've seen
here, I've seen police dogs, right?
When like the, the explosion detective, like dogs kind of, so I know somebody
who's like working with that.
So he's a handler, you know, and I'm like, don't really know anything about like,
so they basically are okay here the dog comes trained and then they go out and
if somebody comes or there's a, there's a concert, so they go and make sure
there's no explosive somewhere, right?
I saw where these dogs live.
In the meantime, it's horrific, horrible, like in these kind of concrete cells.
Oh, you know, hysterical in there.
Dark, no window.
It's literally, and I think they actually do that on purpose.
It's like sort of, um, to almost create like Stockholm Syndrome, you know?
So it's like, that's why they like to work, because it's the only time they
get out of their shit hole, you know?
And oh.
And the handlers are told they mustn't be too nice to these dogs because
then they wouldn't be good at working.
They be tough.
Wouldn't, like, they, they won't do their work if they're too kind of, if
you have too much of a, you know, like you're not allowed to be nice to the
dog and it's just like literally they treat them like an old tool that you kind
of don't bother to, to, you know what
Debbie: it's, yeah.
It's, it's slavery.
Anke: Yeah, totally.
Right.
Totally, totally.
It was horrific.
I never imagined that, that, that like professionals, that they
would treat the dogs like that.
It's like Jesus, and when see it,
Debbie: you can't go back and it really hurts your heart.
Anke: Yeah.
And you think, well, and then, then you, you, you expect them
to save your butt, you know?
It's
Debbie: like, yeah, I know.
Anke: Yeah,
Debbie: I know.
It's,
Anke: um, so tell me, tell me about the book that's coming up, because,
you know, I know I'm gonna have your back when the book's out.
So give us a little bit of a, of a hint of where this is going.
Debbie: That I've been working on it for a long time here and there,
and I don't know why, just haven't, you know, put it all together.
But it's basically this story of, um.
How I do things with, with people that I meet in the world and their dogs.
But it's also the story of Zi and his sister.
Um, and I had mentioned to you in another conversation that they
were born to a stray mom who was emaciated and, um, very skittish and.
Him and his sister were a third of the size of the other pups, and their
immune system had turned on itself in utero because they were so malnourished.
Wow.
So unfortunately we lost her at age six because her liver shut down and his liver
isn't great, but it's better than hers.
Um, so he's still here at 10 and a half?
Yeah, he is.
And know he knows how to look pretty in the background.
He knows how to look pretty.
He's very handsome, isn't he?
He loves to.
He's very
Anke: adorable, handsome.
Very cute.
Debbie: So he's a he's my good boy.
Yeah.
Anke: Oh, so where can people, uh, go and find out about you,
connect with you, get more of you?
Debbie: You can find me on, on my website, which is Debbie's the number four dogs.
I'm also on Facebook.
You can find me, uh, in the Phoenix Advocacy Center.
You can find me in the Pet Professional Guild.
Um, you can find me a lot of places where they care about the welfare of dogs.
I love that.
Anke: Yeah.
Well thank you so much.
Thank you so much, much.
You have such a calming, such a calm, lovely presence.
I just really
Debbie: love hanging out with
Anke: you.
Appreciate.
Debbie: Well, but we'll hang out more after this.
Absolutely.
Good luck everybody.
See you later
Anke: guys.
So
Debbie: thanks so
Anke: much.
Debbie: Thanks so much too, LA Bye-Bye.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.