WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:24.663 --> 00:00:26.313 Anke: Hello and welcome, Debbie. 00:00:26.373 --> 00:00:28.713 I'm absolutely delighted to have you here. 00:00:28.713 --> 00:00:31.083 It was long overdue and I'm glad we're here. 00:00:31.623 --> 00:00:36.333 Debbie: No, I'm so excited to be in any place where you are at. 00:00:36.443 --> 00:00:39.723 Anke, you, you, you're just a fabulous human being. 00:00:40.593 --> 00:00:40.773 So 00:00:40.773 --> 00:00:41.403 Anke: happy to be awesome. 00:00:42.138 --> 00:00:42.738 Thank you. 00:00:42.738 --> 00:00:43.368 Thank you. 00:00:43.638 --> 00:00:48.558 Uh, but well, today the spotlight's on you, so let people know where 00:00:48.558 --> 00:00:51.588 in this lovely world you are and what's your business with dogs. 00:00:52.068 --> 00:00:56.358 Debbie: So I'm in West Hartford, Connecticut, in, in, um, the States. 00:00:56.688 --> 00:01:03.228 And um, I am, my shirt says certified canine life coach. 00:01:03.828 --> 00:01:08.688 Um, and another life I used to counsel humans and I was going 00:01:08.688 --> 00:01:11.298 to become a human life coach. 00:01:11.748 --> 00:01:18.438 And when I was going through that and looking at my best options, I ended up 00:01:18.438 --> 00:01:23.598 going to, um, a shelter to get a, a dog. 00:01:23.928 --> 00:01:27.528 And instead I came home with him and his litter mate because 00:01:27.528 --> 00:01:28.698 I couldn't leave her behind. 00:01:29.478 --> 00:01:33.558 And these dogs had, um, stuff, you know, they were born to 00:01:33.558 --> 00:01:35.568 a malnourished, stray mom. 00:01:36.028 --> 00:01:43.108 Which you'll read in the future about more in my book, but, but whenever that is. 00:01:43.678 --> 00:01:50.368 Um, but I brought them home and there were some big issues. 00:01:50.758 --> 00:01:57.688 I hired a trainer and I was appalled at what he suggested, and 00:01:57.688 --> 00:01:59.248 I just started reading everything. 00:01:59.248 --> 00:02:01.528 So instead of reading, you know. 00:02:02.388 --> 00:02:03.498 Book club books. 00:02:04.038 --> 00:02:09.048 I was getting this book, a book about dogs and that book and some of the, 00:02:09.408 --> 00:02:14.748 the books were horrible too, so it took me a little while to find my way 00:02:14.748 --> 00:02:18.768 to the good folks, the kind folks. 00:02:19.248 --> 00:02:26.328 And then instead of becoming a life coach for humans, I became a canine life coach. 00:02:27.228 --> 00:02:31.338 So that's, that's my story, um, my short version. 00:02:31.818 --> 00:02:37.668 But I, you know, it's just so interesting the things that you don't 00:02:37.668 --> 00:02:41.178 notice until you, you start to notice. 00:02:41.778 --> 00:02:45.798 And now I, I work, um. 00:02:46.848 --> 00:02:48.528 With dogs who are fearful. 00:02:49.038 --> 00:02:54.468 You know, lots of people call them aggressive dogs, and of course, we who 00:02:54.618 --> 00:03:00.498 know them know that they are just trying to give themselves space and really 00:03:00.498 --> 00:03:04.428 communicating the best that they can with what they've got to work with. 00:03:05.148 --> 00:03:09.348 And so I always tell people who reach out to me, yes, I'm happy to 00:03:09.348 --> 00:03:11.058 come, but my training is for you. 00:03:11.653 --> 00:03:12.313 Hmm. 00:03:12.373 --> 00:03:18.043 Your dog will have fun when I'm there, but you need to know that I'm going to 00:03:18.193 --> 00:03:23.113 share things with you that are going to be big eye openers and help you to see 00:03:23.113 --> 00:03:25.603 things in, in a really different way. 00:03:26.203 --> 00:03:26.563 Anke: Hmm. 00:03:26.653 --> 00:03:27.133 I love that. 00:03:28.153 --> 00:03:28.243 Yeah. 00:03:28.243 --> 00:03:33.373 It's interesting, like how, how, um, I have a similar experience, you know, I 00:03:33.373 --> 00:03:37.483 didn't, didn't go the same route, but I had that same experience that when I got 00:03:37.483 --> 00:03:39.553 my first dog, you know, from the street. 00:03:40.803 --> 00:03:44.073 None of the staff that was recommended to me made any sense. 00:03:44.343 --> 00:03:44.463 Right. 00:03:44.463 --> 00:03:48.243 You know, either was cruel or was like, kind of felt stupid or just 00:03:48.243 --> 00:03:49.443 simply didn't work, you know? 00:03:49.623 --> 00:03:49.683 No 00:03:49.683 --> 00:03:51.453 Debbie: cruel or so dumb. 00:03:51.453 --> 00:03:51.813 Dumb. 00:03:51.873 --> 00:03:52.383 Yes. 00:03:52.443 --> 00:03:52.983 Anke: Yeah. 00:03:53.043 --> 00:03:53.433 Yeah. 00:03:53.433 --> 00:03:58.743 So when people hear canine coach, because I, my first question 00:03:58.743 --> 00:04:00.483 was, so who are you coaching? 00:04:00.483 --> 00:04:02.763 I'm like, the dog will be human, you know? 00:04:02.763 --> 00:04:03.183 Right. 00:04:03.183 --> 00:04:03.663 So. 00:04:04.968 --> 00:04:08.148 I mean, I guess the human is the one who needs to understand stuff. 00:04:08.148 --> 00:04:08.388 Right. 00:04:08.388 --> 00:04:11.898 So what's the one, like if I was to say like out of all the clients who 00:04:11.898 --> 00:04:14.598 come to you, what's the one thing? 00:04:14.628 --> 00:04:16.458 Oh boy, I wish they understood this. 00:04:17.448 --> 00:04:22.188 Debbie: Well, yesterday I went to see a client who had used another 00:04:22.248 --> 00:04:27.978 trainer before, um, had a big dog, over a hundred pound dog. 00:04:28.398 --> 00:04:33.678 And, um, this dog was w wearing a prong collar. 00:04:34.743 --> 00:04:39.303 And I actually took a picture and did a post about it last night. 00:04:39.513 --> 00:04:45.873 I don't have it with me, but the prong collar, when you take it and you 00:04:45.873 --> 00:04:50.013 know it has like a little martingale collar too, and you hold it up. 00:04:50.013 --> 00:04:52.923 It's literally like this, this much around. 00:04:53.478 --> 00:04:54.948 And the prongs are sticking in. 00:04:55.338 --> 00:05:02.208 So I put an Apple watch inside just to give some depth perception, and you could 00:05:02.208 --> 00:05:05.268 see that it's just in the dog's neck. 00:05:05.838 --> 00:05:09.018 Oh, and you know, this dog was five years old. 00:05:09.168 --> 00:05:11.058 Sweet, sweet, wonderful dog. 00:05:11.058 --> 00:05:15.138 She said that also people couldn't come in the house and she couldn't believe 00:05:15.138 --> 00:05:17.658 that him and I made friends so quickly. 00:05:18.138 --> 00:05:20.658 But of course we know about dog body language, right? 00:05:21.093 --> 00:05:22.593 We know, oh, Sally, you okay? 00:05:23.463 --> 00:05:31.413 We know, um, about good messages to send our dogs instead of the people 00:05:31.413 --> 00:05:33.873 who come in and wanna show who's boss. 00:05:33.873 --> 00:05:37.413 That's never a good thing, and that's what they had been experiencing. 00:05:38.043 --> 00:05:43.863 So when we went through everything and she saw the way he responded to 00:05:43.863 --> 00:05:47.163 me, she started to cry and she said. 00:05:48.453 --> 00:05:52.893 I feel so horrible that he's my baby and I've been doing 00:05:52.893 --> 00:05:54.603 this to him for five years. 00:05:57.153 --> 00:06:01.203 So I hugged her and I told her, it's not your fault. 00:06:01.263 --> 00:06:08.428 You were given poor advice by someone who I'm guessing, really knew 00:06:08.428 --> 00:06:11.673 nothing about dog behavior, you know? 00:06:12.603 --> 00:06:16.143 Um, but for me, when I have cases like that. 00:06:16.758 --> 00:06:23.658 When I leave, I ask if they'll give me the prong color or the shot color. 00:06:24.588 --> 00:06:33.258 And you know, one person said to me, well, you know, it is expensive. 00:06:33.258 --> 00:06:34.578 I should just donate it. 00:06:34.668 --> 00:06:39.048 And I said, oh, talk through the same torture. 00:06:39.108 --> 00:06:42.858 And her, you know, she said, oh my gosh, you're right. 00:06:42.888 --> 00:06:43.248 That's. 00:06:43.968 --> 00:06:45.498 You know, so terrible. 00:06:46.008 --> 00:06:50.268 So yesterday she said, I'm so happy to give it to you. 00:06:50.268 --> 00:06:55.608 And she went and she got it and I said, it makes me so happy to be able to take this. 00:06:55.668 --> 00:06:56.808 Thank you so much. 00:06:56.988 --> 00:06:59.328 Yeah, and I think so I. 00:06:59.808 --> 00:07:01.968 Is this my long answer to your question? 00:07:01.968 --> 00:07:04.938 You know, I think the most important thing was that what you asked, 00:07:04.938 --> 00:07:06.168 what's the most important thing? 00:07:06.168 --> 00:07:07.188 Or what do I want people to know? 00:07:07.273 --> 00:07:07.608 Well, what do you, 00:07:07.818 --> 00:07:10.278 Anke: you know, what do you, what did you wish people knew? 00:07:10.278 --> 00:07:10.758 You know, I 00:07:10.758 --> 00:07:13.668 Debbie: want people to know that kindness always wins. 00:07:13.728 --> 00:07:18.108 That there's never, ever, ever a good reason to do something to another 00:07:18.108 --> 00:07:21.078 creature that doesn't feel right to you. 00:07:21.078 --> 00:07:25.488 And if it's pain and it's intimidation, it shouldn't feel right to you. 00:07:25.488 --> 00:07:25.578 Right? 00:07:26.598 --> 00:07:28.278 Yeah, we, we've come so far. 00:07:29.253 --> 00:07:33.543 Sometimes we think in this world, I don't know what's going on these days, but 00:07:33.603 --> 00:07:41.133 you know, um, you know, we used to do things like bear baiting, um, the zoos. 00:07:41.163 --> 00:07:46.893 Many zoos are still horrible places and we want the animals to have their freedom. 00:07:46.893 --> 00:07:54.093 But so many certified zoos have done deep dives into what's natural for 00:07:54.093 --> 00:07:56.163 the animals who, who live there. 00:07:56.643 --> 00:07:58.113 And we all. 00:07:59.238 --> 00:08:01.728 Who love dogs should be doing the same thing. 00:08:01.728 --> 00:08:01.968 You know? 00:08:01.968 --> 00:08:06.198 You don't want a dog that's a slave, I said to do this, dah, dah, dah. 00:08:06.198 --> 00:08:06.648 You know? 00:08:06.648 --> 00:08:09.108 And if not, you're going to pay the price. 00:08:09.108 --> 00:08:09.978 Who wants that? 00:08:10.038 --> 00:08:11.178 It's so upsetting. 00:08:12.168 --> 00:08:18.588 Um, when people call me and they say, you know, I really want you to come 00:08:18.588 --> 00:08:20.508 and I want, I want a strict heel. 00:08:21.813 --> 00:08:23.343 I tell 'em, well, I don't do that. 00:08:23.493 --> 00:08:23.793 You know? 00:08:23.793 --> 00:08:26.853 Then you take all the joy out of the walk for the dog. 00:08:26.853 --> 00:08:33.063 So I don't do that, but I'm happy to come and share other things with 00:08:33.063 --> 00:08:39.783 you, which I hope will help you not to want that strict heel anymore. 00:08:40.743 --> 00:08:46.473 Anke: You know, that's interesting because you know what, what strikes me is, is. 00:08:47.763 --> 00:08:51.873 So if you are specializing, you kind of deal with fearful aggressive 00:08:51.873 --> 00:08:58.383 dogs, you probably get an above average number of people who've 00:08:58.443 --> 00:09:00.453 tried stuff like that, you know? 00:09:00.513 --> 00:09:00.813 Yes. 00:09:00.873 --> 00:09:03.393 Because if somebody has say, I don't know. 00:09:04.053 --> 00:09:06.393 I've had people on the show who kind of specialize in, let's 00:09:06.393 --> 00:09:08.103 say, separation anxiety, right? 00:09:08.103 --> 00:09:08.163 Yeah. 00:09:08.493 --> 00:09:11.823 So now they never talk about shock collars and stuff like 00:09:11.823 --> 00:09:13.683 that, you know, because Right. 00:09:13.773 --> 00:09:18.033 There's only, like, the alternative is often to pop the dog in a crate 00:09:18.363 --> 00:09:23.163 and or, you know, or leave them to cry it out and then deal with the 00:09:23.163 --> 00:09:25.203 scratch door, whatever, you know? 00:09:25.383 --> 00:09:27.513 So, but they don't, but I think. 00:09:28.638 --> 00:09:34.188 People who have a dog who, especially I have a, you know, a hundred pound dog. 00:09:34.723 --> 00:09:35.013 Yeah. 00:09:35.113 --> 00:09:37.133 And so it's like you kind of. 00:09:38.103 --> 00:09:44.493 Are careful to make sure a big dog like that doesn't go crazy, you know? 00:09:44.493 --> 00:09:48.843 So, because like right, purely for the size, you know, if people, if she was to 00:09:48.843 --> 00:09:53.673 come, my mom is like five foot tall, like so now and she's 85 years old, I'm five 00:09:53.673 --> 00:09:56.403 wants, you know, like she looks like 65. 00:09:56.403 --> 00:10:00.873 But, but you know, if, if that big dog who weighs more than her, like, 00:10:00.873 --> 00:10:05.703 you know, you kind of like make sense to make sure that she's a chill dog. 00:10:05.883 --> 00:10:06.453 But I'm. 00:10:07.028 --> 00:10:11.528 You know, so I can see how there would be a lot of advice. 00:10:11.528 --> 00:10:14.528 Well, but you have to control her and, and Exactly. 00:10:14.528 --> 00:10:19.838 You know, so, but I've seen it with this one where, you know, it was like, well. 00:10:20.868 --> 00:10:25.938 I would not let anybody, you know, yell at her or do stupid shit. 00:10:26.268 --> 00:10:29.148 And she's the kindest, she's two years old now, two and a half. 00:10:29.148 --> 00:10:31.308 She is the kindest goofball you'll ever meet. 00:10:31.398 --> 00:10:31.758 Beautiful. 00:10:31.758 --> 00:10:32.718 You know, so it's like, 'cause 00:10:32.718 --> 00:10:34.668 Debbie: all she's received is love. 00:10:34.668 --> 00:10:37.968 So she trusts and she's, you know, she's relaxed. 00:10:38.508 --> 00:10:44.238 Um, this lady told me that the trainer said to her, this 00:10:44.238 --> 00:10:46.248 is, you need to use this. 00:10:46.803 --> 00:10:49.623 For, for the welfare of your dog. 00:10:51.423 --> 00:10:51.783 Anke: Yeah. 00:10:52.173 --> 00:10:58.323 Debbie: So I just found that so ironic that, you know, for the welfare of the 00:10:58.323 --> 00:11:04.053 dog, so what to keep the dog safe to, but, but so the dog for the welfare of 00:11:04.053 --> 00:11:09.483 the dog, the dog should live a life of pain with these horrible things pressing 00:11:09.483 --> 00:11:14.913 on the trachea and the, and the thyroid gland and the esophagus, you know. 00:11:15.363 --> 00:11:16.023 Um. 00:11:16.953 --> 00:11:19.293 It's just, it's just so sad. 00:11:19.293 --> 00:11:23.943 And where I live, I do see a lot of people walking around with shot collars 00:11:23.943 --> 00:11:28.113 and brawn collars, and literally, it, I make eye contact with the 00:11:28.113 --> 00:11:31.953 dogs and I feel like they're saying, can you, can you please help me? 00:11:31.953 --> 00:11:33.003 And it breaks my heart. 00:11:33.423 --> 00:11:33.873 Hmm. 00:11:33.963 --> 00:11:34.863 Makes me crazy. 00:11:35.553 --> 00:11:35.913 Anke: Yeah. 00:11:35.913 --> 00:11:40.293 And, and I guess you, you would need openness from the 00:11:40.293 --> 00:11:41.523 owner to because of that. 00:11:41.523 --> 00:11:44.553 If they're convinced that like, you know, and like, I think it's this. 00:11:45.213 --> 00:11:46.113 Catch 22. 00:11:46.113 --> 00:11:47.943 It's this kind of vicious cycle. 00:11:47.943 --> 00:11:52.893 You know, the more they throttle the dog, the more anxious, the more tense the dog 00:11:52.893 --> 00:11:55.023 will be, the more they think they need it. 00:11:55.023 --> 00:11:55.383 Right? 00:11:55.383 --> 00:11:59.373 So it's almost like you need somebody willing to say, well, hey, let's, it 00:11:59.373 --> 00:12:02.613 doesn't matter how fast you run, if you're running in the wrong direction, let's 00:12:02.613 --> 00:12:04.743 just stop here and see whether, you know, 00:12:05.103 --> 00:12:05.733 Debbie: turned it around. 00:12:06.183 --> 00:12:12.243 Um, I testify in, in court sometimes for dogs who have been, um. 00:12:13.743 --> 00:12:15.933 Abused with this kind of thing. 00:12:15.933 --> 00:12:21.033 And there was one dog, the trainer came over quickly, put two prong collars 00:12:21.033 --> 00:12:26.103 on the dog and jerked back, and the dog took a chunk out of his arm. 00:12:26.763 --> 00:12:32.643 So the um, right, so the police came out and they wanted to euthanize the dog. 00:12:33.243 --> 00:12:39.003 But in court, I said, if a stranger walked into our house and did something 00:12:39.003 --> 00:12:41.343 like that to us, I would bite them. 00:12:42.798 --> 00:12:43.338 Right. 00:12:43.848 --> 00:12:46.218 I mean, you're just, oh my gosh, what's happening here? 00:12:46.218 --> 00:12:49.338 I'm trying to defend myself the best that I can. 00:12:49.728 --> 00:12:53.508 So I always feel like dogs are held to these ridiculous standards 00:12:53.508 --> 00:12:57.318 that we as humans would fail at ourselves over and over. 00:12:57.318 --> 00:12:58.668 And it's just so unfair. 00:12:58.668 --> 00:13:06.198 And people, when they hire someone, they really have to be so careful about 00:13:06.198 --> 00:13:07.728 who they're inviting into their home. 00:13:07.728 --> 00:13:07.788 Yeah. 00:13:08.508 --> 00:13:10.398 And some of the things that that. 00:13:11.793 --> 00:13:17.103 Trainers say that I've heard, um, from my clients just really 00:13:17.103 --> 00:13:18.123 blow me out of the water. 00:13:18.183 --> 00:13:27.093 Like, like some things are just made up and they're horrendous and it's crazy. 00:13:27.333 --> 00:13:27.933 It's crazy. 00:13:28.623 --> 00:13:29.043 Anke: Yeah. 00:13:29.193 --> 00:13:30.483 It's, I don't know. 00:13:31.113 --> 00:13:32.583 It's like, so what? 00:13:32.583 --> 00:13:36.873 Like how do you Actually that reminds me, I had a conversation 00:13:36.873 --> 00:13:38.883 with somebody once and she was. 00:13:39.873 --> 00:13:41.883 I think she just sort of finished. 00:13:42.348 --> 00:13:45.078 Like a dog training qualification, you know? 00:13:45.078 --> 00:13:49.668 And she'd been told by people in her town where she lives, like, 00:13:49.668 --> 00:13:51.738 no girl, that ain't gonna work. 00:13:51.798 --> 00:13:52.278 You know? 00:13:52.398 --> 00:13:56.268 Because she said, well, there's, all the trainers here are balanced trainers. 00:13:56.358 --> 00:13:56.568 Right? 00:13:56.568 --> 00:13:57.888 And they weren't gonna. 00:13:58.048 --> 00:13:59.188 Accept her. 00:13:59.458 --> 00:13:59.788 Right. 00:13:59.788 --> 00:14:03.358 And I'm like, well, at least you could teach, you can speak to all the women 00:14:03.358 --> 00:14:05.038 who go don't wanna go to these blogs. 00:14:05.043 --> 00:14:06.118 Right, right, right. 00:14:06.328 --> 00:14:07.738 Do you think it's a gender thing? 00:14:08.098 --> 00:14:12.178 I mean, I've had men on the show who've, who are totally kindness 00:14:12.178 --> 00:14:13.813 first, so I'm not saying right, 00:14:13.828 --> 00:14:14.908 Debbie: right know, but there's 00:14:15.658 --> 00:14:16.533 Anke: a lot of, there seems to be a bit of a deloit, very, 00:14:16.538 --> 00:14:17.548 Debbie: very kind men. 00:14:18.088 --> 00:14:26.098 But there are, I can tell you just in my area, um, there are many, many more men. 00:14:26.958 --> 00:14:32.388 Who teach that you have to be a force with your dog. 00:14:33.183 --> 00:14:33.873 Than women. 00:14:34.173 --> 00:14:34.593 Hmm. 00:14:34.953 --> 00:14:37.533 Anke: Because it often feels to me like men look for control 00:14:37.533 --> 00:14:39.003 and women look for connection. 00:14:39.393 --> 00:14:40.113 Debbie: Right, right. 00:14:40.113 --> 00:14:42.453 You knows are different species. 00:14:42.453 --> 00:14:43.473 And I think you're right. 00:14:43.473 --> 00:14:44.673 I think there is something there. 00:14:44.673 --> 00:14:47.913 And luckily we have the men who are, yeah. 00:14:48.213 --> 00:14:49.233 Are not like that. 00:14:49.293 --> 00:14:53.403 And, and then we have some women that are unfortunately, 00:14:53.463 --> 00:14:55.773 um, looking for that obedience. 00:14:55.773 --> 00:14:57.303 You know, I don't even like the word, 00:14:57.303 --> 00:14:58.233 Anke: I don't like it either. 00:14:58.233 --> 00:15:00.753 No, I, it's like you would want it for your children, right? 00:15:00.873 --> 00:15:01.593 Debbie: You would not. 00:15:01.743 --> 00:15:06.123 And you know, when I, again, when I go to a home and someone will say, 00:15:06.123 --> 00:15:11.433 well, you know, I've been working on the, the come command, and the first 00:15:11.433 --> 00:15:14.883 thing I always say is, you know. 00:15:15.723 --> 00:15:19.743 How about we talk about a recall queue? 00:15:20.648 --> 00:15:21.068 Mm-hmm. 00:15:21.243 --> 00:15:24.453 And doesn't that sound so much better because. 00:15:25.278 --> 00:15:28.638 Nobody wants to be bossed around, ordered around. 00:15:29.058 --> 00:15:32.688 You know, we want a relationship, we want a loving and caring 00:15:32.688 --> 00:15:37.578 relationship, and, and truly nobody can move forward in a relationship 00:15:37.578 --> 00:15:39.408 unless there's trust and love. 00:15:39.528 --> 00:15:41.238 You know, we, we just can't. 00:15:41.478 --> 00:15:47.058 People who say, well, look at my dog is so obedient and, and perfect in every 00:15:47.058 --> 00:15:51.619 situation, but when I look at this dog and the head's low and the tail's low. 00:15:52.328 --> 00:15:54.068 And, and the eyes are dull. 00:15:54.548 --> 00:15:56.168 It, it breaks my heart. 00:15:56.948 --> 00:15:57.338 Anke: Yeah. 00:15:57.458 --> 00:16:01.088 And when the, I mean, I remember seeing one in, in Granada where I used to 00:16:01.088 --> 00:16:06.158 live this guy, like, well, he basically took a dog trainer course and it 00:16:06.158 --> 00:16:11.018 was literally, you know, dog whisper mini me kind of Spanish versions. 00:16:11.023 --> 00:16:11.243 Yes. 00:16:11.378 --> 00:16:14.138 You know, and so you could tell, I mean, you just like 00:16:14.138 --> 00:16:16.688 hear the, and kicks like, yeah. 00:16:16.688 --> 00:16:18.638 You kind of know where they're going, you know? 00:16:18.638 --> 00:16:20.198 And he adopted a. 00:16:21.063 --> 00:16:22.803 You know, traumatized. 00:16:22.983 --> 00:16:27.333 Like the poor dog was like, you know, and he would not, he says, oh, he's 00:16:27.333 --> 00:16:31.083 really, he does really, he gets really anxious when there's like a lot of people. 00:16:32.013 --> 00:16:34.383 Then he says, oh yeah, I trained that out. 00:16:34.383 --> 00:16:35.853 Like, yep, that's sorted. 00:16:36.123 --> 00:16:40.233 He basically went where there was like a, um, you know, Easter procession 00:16:40.233 --> 00:16:44.013 where there's like people on people, like he basically flooded that dog. 00:16:44.043 --> 00:16:47.613 He went there and took him, and then initially he was like, whatever. 00:16:47.613 --> 00:16:51.063 And then he, you could see like, I saw him afterwards and he was literally like, he 00:16:51.063 --> 00:16:55.263 just given up on life, you know, and he would look how nice and calm he is, right? 00:16:55.593 --> 00:16:59.463 And it's like, makes me want to, yeah, it's like. 00:17:01.503 --> 00:17:05.913 Debbie: Uh, I took, um, my applied animal behavior classes through, um, 00:17:06.603 --> 00:17:11.583 it's University of Washington, and my professors were just like, amazing. 00:17:11.643 --> 00:17:13.593 It was, it was just amazing. 00:17:13.683 --> 00:17:20.073 But one of my classmates is a fabulous lady who works with Cane 00:17:20.073 --> 00:17:27.303 Corso, and she said that never ever, ever would she use any. 00:17:28.068 --> 00:17:30.948 Thing that was intimidating or painful. 00:17:30.978 --> 00:17:35.688 But you know, since she works with those dogs, she sees that all the time that, 00:17:36.378 --> 00:17:43.728 um, it seems to be so many people feel like the bigger the dog, the more you 00:17:43.728 --> 00:17:46.908 have to enforce who's large and in charge. 00:17:46.908 --> 00:17:51.438 And it, it doesn't matter the size, it doesn't matter the breed. 00:17:52.533 --> 00:17:56.403 Dogs are so social, and we are, and everybody's just 00:17:56.403 --> 00:17:57.633 looking for that connection. 00:17:57.633 --> 00:17:57.693 Yeah. 00:17:58.083 --> 00:18:00.258 There's trying to get so cute. 00:18:00.603 --> 00:18:01.893 Get himself famous. 00:18:04.173 --> 00:18:04.713 Anke: Very cute. 00:18:05.073 --> 00:18:11.553 Have you got an example, um, where somebody came to you kind of starting 00:18:11.553 --> 00:18:15.813 out sort of argue, like, you know, have you seen people change their mind? 00:18:16.353 --> 00:18:16.983 Debbie: Oh, yes. 00:18:17.013 --> 00:18:17.313 Yeah. 00:18:17.313 --> 00:18:20.523 I, I, I mean, I've cried with people, um. 00:18:21.108 --> 00:18:29.028 I feel like many people use these balance trainers and then 00:18:30.618 --> 00:18:33.168 it's, it's not working, you know? 00:18:33.168 --> 00:18:38.778 Um, some people, they say their dog's aggressive, which, you know, I, I 00:18:38.778 --> 00:18:43.848 don't even really like that word, but I know people use it, um, to explain 00:18:43.848 --> 00:18:46.008 what's going on sometimes, but. 00:18:47.583 --> 00:18:52.953 So they call in this person who has them shocking and jerking, a prong 00:18:52.953 --> 00:18:56.013 collar, and things are getting worse. 00:18:56.763 --> 00:18:58.413 So we have one or the other. 00:18:58.413 --> 00:19:02.373 We have either the dog that gives up and shuts down and says, this is just my life. 00:19:02.373 --> 00:19:05.133 There's nothing I can do or say when I'm saying I'm 00:19:05.133 --> 00:19:06.783 uncomfortable, nobody's listening. 00:19:07.713 --> 00:19:09.243 Or there's the dog that says. 00:19:09.873 --> 00:19:13.563 What in the world I, this is not okay. 00:19:14.253 --> 00:19:17.073 You other dog cause me pain. 00:19:17.073 --> 00:19:22.263 You little boy cause me pain and these dogs I have to get you before you get me. 00:19:22.323 --> 00:19:22.773 Right? 00:19:22.863 --> 00:19:24.688 It's, it's terrible, but it makes sense. 00:19:24.688 --> 00:19:25.248 You understand it. 00:19:26.523 --> 00:19:32.763 So then these people will call me and say, you know, I heard about you. 00:19:33.243 --> 00:19:36.273 I worked with this person who told me to do this, this, and this, but it 00:19:36.273 --> 00:19:38.193 seems as though it's getting worse. 00:19:38.253 --> 00:19:39.273 And I say. 00:19:40.023 --> 00:19:41.103 Of course it is. 00:19:41.493 --> 00:19:46.743 And I'm sorry, but we're gonna have fight or flight here and I'll explain 00:19:46.743 --> 00:19:49.263 it all to you and then I explain it all. 00:19:49.263 --> 00:19:55.503 And you know, again, many times people are, are just crying and I hug them 00:19:55.503 --> 00:20:00.693 and I cry too because I, it, I feel so bad about what the dog has endured, 00:20:01.263 --> 00:20:06.843 you know, in the name of training and I really have to believe that. 00:20:07.878 --> 00:20:12.768 People, you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't hire the doctor that doesn't 00:20:12.768 --> 00:20:15.228 take his boards every two years. 00:20:15.228 --> 00:20:15.828 Why is that? 00:20:15.828 --> 00:20:17.958 Because things change, right? 00:20:18.738 --> 00:20:24.438 If you're still cutting off people's legs because you didn't know that penicillin 00:20:24.438 --> 00:20:26.208 was invented, which stops an infection, 00:20:28.313 --> 00:20:29.928 well, I don't wanna hire you. 00:20:30.168 --> 00:20:30.678 Right? 00:20:31.188 --> 00:20:31.458 Yeah, for sure. 00:20:31.458 --> 00:20:36.288 So there's these trainers that are pushing things that once. 00:20:37.593 --> 00:20:39.843 Was thought to be the only way. 00:20:40.653 --> 00:20:47.463 You know, even like when the clickers came out, um, it was one of the 00:20:47.463 --> 00:20:53.043 first times where people said, oh, you can, you can work with a dog 00:20:53.043 --> 00:20:58.593 in a way that's not hurting them or, or doing anything negative. 00:20:59.073 --> 00:21:04.593 I like to just use the word yes because I like that personal connection and I 00:21:04.593 --> 00:21:06.393 want the dog to hear that I'm happy. 00:21:06.768 --> 00:21:11.358 You know, um, but, but it's all about connection. 00:21:11.358 --> 00:21:15.948 It's all about relationship, and that's gotta be the most important 00:21:15.948 --> 00:21:22.248 thing to be able to have the companion that you want, because I. 00:21:22.248 --> 00:21:25.113 You want a dog that you can bring places. 00:21:25.503 --> 00:21:25.563 Yeah. 00:21:25.563 --> 00:21:30.633 But the dog to go places has to feel safe with you and, and 00:21:30.633 --> 00:21:32.913 then there's some dogs like him. 00:21:33.303 --> 00:21:35.853 He's just never gonna be comfortable going places. 00:21:35.853 --> 00:21:36.993 And that's okay. 00:21:37.353 --> 00:21:41.253 Could I put a shot collar on him and say, you better go here or other, you know? 00:21:41.253 --> 00:21:41.823 Sure. 00:21:41.823 --> 00:21:43.323 But how horrible would that be? 00:21:43.653 --> 00:21:44.463 So he trusts me. 00:21:45.783 --> 00:21:46.053 Huh. 00:21:46.443 --> 00:21:52.503 And, um, you know, he, his world is small, but it's, it's wonderful. 00:21:52.833 --> 00:21:53.403 It's wonderful. 00:21:53.403 --> 00:21:56.403 And then I have my other girl, she's somewhere, I don't know where she went. 00:21:56.403 --> 00:21:58.623 And she loves to say hi to everybody. 00:21:58.953 --> 00:22:00.963 So you have to look at the dog in front of you. 00:22:01.293 --> 00:22:01.443 Yeah. 00:22:01.473 --> 00:22:04.413 You know, and do what's right for the dog. 00:22:04.503 --> 00:22:09.303 You can't fix a dog into, to make them into someone. 00:22:09.303 --> 00:22:09.633 They're not. 00:22:10.023 --> 00:22:10.353 Right. 00:22:10.353 --> 00:22:10.413 Yeah. 00:22:10.413 --> 00:22:15.033 Some of us are introverts, some of us are extroverts, and you know, if 00:22:15.033 --> 00:22:19.113 um, my husband doesn't wanna I go to the party down the street, well then 00:22:19.113 --> 00:22:22.263 I'm gonna say, okay babe, I'll go down and I'll be back in a few hours. 00:22:22.293 --> 00:22:24.033 'cause he's more of a introvert. 00:22:24.603 --> 00:22:24.903 Anke: Yeah. 00:22:24.903 --> 00:22:28.443 I mean, it makes, it makes so much sense and I think it's this letting 00:22:28.443 --> 00:22:30.873 go of looking at the dog like a. 00:22:31.248 --> 00:22:35.658 A toy or a tool or you know, like it's, I mean, that's like, in Spain it's really, 00:22:35.868 --> 00:22:39.918 oh, you know, really it's this traditional like, oh, the dog needs to serve. 00:22:39.978 --> 00:22:44.058 Like it's, it's for protection or it's a toy for the kids and you know, so it's 00:22:44.058 --> 00:22:48.858 that the dog needs, like buy a plush toy. 00:22:49.338 --> 00:22:49.668 Right. 00:22:49.668 --> 00:22:54.678 You know, just because if you look at the dog as another soul, you 00:22:54.678 --> 00:22:57.168 know, another, another being who. 00:22:58.203 --> 00:23:01.143 Who is more comfortable wanting, and there you are, another who has trauma 00:23:01.143 --> 00:23:05.133 and whatever and has their life and is just looking for that connection. 00:23:05.133 --> 00:23:07.383 Like, you will never do this, these things, you know? 00:23:07.383 --> 00:23:10.683 But if you think it's like, oh, well, you know, he's gotten too big now and 00:23:11.493 --> 00:23:13.893 whatever, or like he's not, I don't know. 00:23:13.893 --> 00:23:14.253 There's. 00:23:15.138 --> 00:23:19.488 You hear them when it's like, well, yeah, but if I'm police, oh, I've seen 00:23:19.488 --> 00:23:22.248 here, I've seen police dogs, right? 00:23:22.428 --> 00:23:27.588 When like the, the explosion detective, like dogs kind of, so I know somebody 00:23:27.588 --> 00:23:28.908 who's like working with that. 00:23:28.908 --> 00:23:33.528 So he's a handler, you know, and I'm like, don't really know anything about like, 00:23:33.528 --> 00:23:38.328 so they basically are okay here the dog comes trained and then they go out and 00:23:38.328 --> 00:23:41.958 if somebody comes or there's a, there's a concert, so they go and make sure 00:23:41.958 --> 00:23:43.458 there's no explosive somewhere, right? 00:23:44.058 --> 00:23:45.768 I saw where these dogs live. 00:23:45.768 --> 00:23:51.438 In the meantime, it's horrific, horrible, like in these kind of concrete cells. 00:23:51.588 --> 00:23:53.568 Oh, you know, hysterical in there. 00:23:53.568 --> 00:23:54.768 Dark, no window. 00:23:54.768 --> 00:23:57.168 It's literally, and I think they actually do that on purpose. 00:23:57.408 --> 00:24:02.298 It's like sort of, um, to almost create like Stockholm Syndrome, you know? 00:24:02.298 --> 00:24:05.088 So it's like, that's why they like to work, because it's the only time they 00:24:05.088 --> 00:24:07.278 get out of their shit hole, you know? 00:24:07.278 --> 00:24:07.608 And oh. 00:24:08.358 --> 00:24:13.158 And the handlers are told they mustn't be too nice to these dogs because 00:24:13.158 --> 00:24:14.778 then they wouldn't be good at working. 00:24:15.138 --> 00:24:16.218 They be tough. 00:24:16.878 --> 00:24:20.028 Wouldn't, like, they, they won't do their work if they're too kind of, if 00:24:20.028 --> 00:24:23.148 you have too much of a, you know, like you're not allowed to be nice to the 00:24:23.148 --> 00:24:27.903 dog and it's just like literally they treat them like an old tool that you kind 00:24:27.903 --> 00:24:29.463 of don't bother to, to, you know what 00:24:29.463 --> 00:24:30.343 Debbie: it's, yeah. 00:24:30.343 --> 00:24:31.488 It's, it's slavery. 00:24:31.668 --> 00:24:32.688 Anke: Yeah, totally. 00:24:32.693 --> 00:24:32.743 Right. 00:24:33.258 --> 00:24:34.098 Totally, totally. 00:24:34.098 --> 00:24:34.788 It was horrific. 00:24:34.788 --> 00:24:38.268 I never imagined that, that, that like professionals, that they 00:24:38.268 --> 00:24:39.558 would treat the dogs like that. 00:24:39.558 --> 00:24:40.783 It's like Jesus, and when see it, 00:24:40.848 --> 00:24:43.068 Debbie: you can't go back and it really hurts your heart. 00:24:43.398 --> 00:24:43.878 Anke: Yeah. 00:24:43.968 --> 00:24:47.568 And you think, well, and then, then you, you, you expect them 00:24:47.568 --> 00:24:49.188 to save your butt, you know? 00:24:49.583 --> 00:24:49.873 It's 00:24:49.873 --> 00:24:51.153 Debbie: like, yeah, I know. 00:24:51.303 --> 00:24:51.593 Anke: Yeah, 00:24:51.913 --> 00:24:52.193 Debbie: I know. 00:24:52.198 --> 00:24:52.458 It's, 00:24:52.458 --> 00:24:56.028 Anke: um, so tell me, tell me about the book that's coming up, because, 00:24:56.028 --> 00:24:58.398 you know, I know I'm gonna have your back when the book's out. 00:24:59.058 --> 00:25:01.848 So give us a little bit of a, of a hint of where this is going. 00:25:01.848 --> 00:25:04.728 Debbie: That I've been working on it for a long time here and there, 00:25:04.728 --> 00:25:08.898 and I don't know why, just haven't, you know, put it all together. 00:25:08.898 --> 00:25:11.958 But it's basically this story of, um. 00:25:12.933 --> 00:25:19.503 How I do things with, with people that I meet in the world and their dogs. 00:25:19.503 --> 00:25:23.343 But it's also the story of Zi and his sister. 00:25:24.093 --> 00:25:31.173 Um, and I had mentioned to you in another conversation that they 00:25:31.173 --> 00:25:40.713 were born to a stray mom who was emaciated and, um, very skittish and. 00:25:41.163 --> 00:25:46.953 Him and his sister were a third of the size of the other pups, and their 00:25:46.953 --> 00:25:51.603 immune system had turned on itself in utero because they were so malnourished. 00:25:51.693 --> 00:25:52.023 Wow. 00:25:52.413 --> 00:25:57.693 So unfortunately we lost her at age six because her liver shut down and his liver 00:25:57.693 --> 00:25:59.913 isn't great, but it's better than hers. 00:26:01.268 --> 00:26:03.153 Um, so he's still here at 10 and a half? 00:26:04.323 --> 00:26:04.983 Yeah, he is. 00:26:05.508 --> 00:26:07.728 And know he knows how to look pretty in the background. 00:26:08.268 --> 00:26:09.138 He knows how to look pretty. 00:26:09.138 --> 00:26:10.488 He's very handsome, isn't he? 00:26:10.758 --> 00:26:11.059 He loves to. 00:26:11.064 --> 00:26:11.423 He's very 00:26:11.543 --> 00:26:12.183 Anke: adorable, handsome. 00:26:12.373 --> 00:26:12.823 Very cute. 00:26:13.643 --> 00:26:15.528 Debbie: So he's a he's my good boy. 00:26:16.158 --> 00:26:16.518 Yeah. 00:26:16.758 --> 00:26:21.888 Anke: Oh, so where can people, uh, go and find out about you, 00:26:21.888 --> 00:26:23.718 connect with you, get more of you? 00:26:24.723 --> 00:26:31.518 Debbie: You can find me on, on my website, which is Debbie's the number four dogs. 00:26:32.328 --> 00:26:34.338 I'm also on Facebook. 00:26:34.368 --> 00:26:38.688 You can find me, uh, in the Phoenix Advocacy Center. 00:26:38.688 --> 00:26:42.468 You can find me in the Pet Professional Guild. 00:26:43.008 --> 00:26:49.548 Um, you can find me a lot of places where they care about the welfare of dogs. 00:26:50.688 --> 00:26:51.258 I love that. 00:26:51.363 --> 00:26:51.423 Anke: Yeah. 00:26:52.443 --> 00:26:53.943 Well thank you so much. 00:26:54.123 --> 00:26:54.723 Thank you so much, much. 00:26:54.723 --> 00:26:57.513 You have such a calming, such a calm, lovely presence. 00:26:57.513 --> 00:26:58.053 I just really 00:26:58.503 --> 00:26:59.373 Debbie: love hanging out with 00:26:59.373 --> 00:26:59.703 Anke: you. 00:26:59.703 --> 00:26:59.943 Appreciate. 00:27:00.633 --> 00:27:02.793 Debbie: Well, but we'll hang out more after this. 00:27:03.213 --> 00:27:03.513 Absolutely. 00:27:03.513 --> 00:27:04.293 Good luck everybody. 00:27:05.133 --> 00:27:05.733 See you later 00:27:05.733 --> 00:27:06.033 Anke: guys. 00:27:06.423 --> 00:27:06.783 So 00:27:08.613 --> 00:27:09.018 Debbie: thanks so 00:27:09.018 --> 00:27:09.168 Anke: much. 00:27:10.713 --> 00:27:12.128 Debbie: Thanks so much too, LA Bye-Bye. 00:27:13.173 --> 00:27:14.403 Thanks so much for listening. 00:27:14.923 --> 00:27:19.223 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:27:19.323 --> 00:27:21.103 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:27:21.893 --> 00:27:25.383 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:27:25.813 --> 00:27:31.383 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:27:31.483 --> 00:27:33.853 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:27:33.853 --> 00:27:37.583 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:27:38.003 --> 00:27:39.143 I'd love an introduction. 00:27:39.623 --> 00:27:41.453 Email me at Anke. 00:27:41.723 --> 00:27:45.958 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.