WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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I'm Joe Low.

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And today we've heard from Liv
about a good topic for us, a

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very US topic, reactivity being
reactive, two, commonly known as

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being triggered unquote these days.

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Mm.

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There's a lot in that.

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Firstly, shout out to Liv
who's in hospital, having

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just had her appendix out.

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Oh, I didn't know that.

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Yeah, so you know when this
finally reaches there is she'll

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be appendix free appendectomy.

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Yeah.

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So a big couple of days for Liv.

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I imagine she was fairly reactive
to the pain in her stomach.

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Um, but we're not probably talking
about that kind of reactivity are we?

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So just read it through a bit more slowly.

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Okay.

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Reactivity being reactive.

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Too commonly known as
being triggered these days.

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Okay.

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So I feel like the triggered thing
was something from the naughties.

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Was it?

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I think it started coming in, uh,
I feel like it got, it was, it

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was really strong in the, in the
discourse in the teens, I would say.

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Yeah.

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So a bit of peaked a while ago.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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You don't hear that many people
talking about being triggered anymore.

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We don't get trigger warnings as much.

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I feel like trigger
warnings really peaked.

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Uh, sometime around 20, 20
A little bit before then.

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Yeah.

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It could have been like, I feel
like Joe Rogan did a colony special.

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Called Triggered, which, you know,
like tapped into vaguely right

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wing people being annoyed by left
wing people feeling triggered.

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Oh yeah.

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People, people being annoyed
about people being triggered.

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Yes.

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Was a huge part of the discourse.

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Yes.

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That somehow you were infringing
on other people's psychological.

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Comfort and, and, and their sort of
freedom of expression by demanding that,

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you know, don't use this word unless you
wanna upset people and you know, yeah.

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Don't say things this sort of way and
don't talk about this sort of topic.

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There was a feeling that maybe this was,
censorious, censorious or that that.

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Or the, the more charitable reading
that okay, even if this is well

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intentioned, it might be going too
far and we might be limiting our

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ability to be honest about things.

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Yeah.

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Uh, and so that's like the
fairer version of the critique.

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I was never that on board with the,
obviously with the right wing version

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of it, which is just suck it up.

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Yeah.

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Everyone's gone soft, everyone's gone.

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Soft, rubber a brick on it.

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Stop being such a souk.

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if I wanna use horrible racial
and misogynistic slur and

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homophobic slurs, what's it to you?

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Uh, it's only words,
princess, that kind of stuff.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm a little bit more like that, I guess.

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Mm-hmm.

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A little bit.

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Probably more than you.

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but when I look, when I.

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First saw there was trigger
warnings before a mm-hmm.

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Movie or a show or whatever.

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I wasn't immediately kind
of like, this is bullshit.

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Yeah.

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I was like, fair enough.

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Like someone's had some trauma.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And trauma was another word
that came in and got really

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big at the same time, I think.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I feel like trauma's come
a, uh, maybe a little bit.

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Uh, I think it's peaked a
little bit after, but obviously

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they're related concepts.

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Um, I, I feel like trauma has stuck
around and become very legitimate and

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very fleshed out, whereas the trigger,
certainly something like a trigger

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warning has really just gone away.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It, you really only see it.

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I think these days when it is like
highly justified, all that lawyers

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have basically required it to be
there, which is another aspect.

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Yeah.

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so that's that part of what
Liv's asked us to talk about.

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But in terms of being reactive, I mean, so
this being reactive as in being offended.

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Mm-hmm.

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But the part of being reactive that I
relate to is being afraid of things.

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Yeah, that's right.

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And so I think.

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Well back to the right wing critique.

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I do.

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I just wanna say a little
bit more about that.

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What was missing from that critique?

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Well, I think what w the assumption
with it was people were choosing to be

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upset by things and that they were doing
that in order to exert control over

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what others can or should say or do.

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now.

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Maybe there were people who were
hamming it up a bit and were prof being,

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going around, being professionally
triggered, you know, maybe one or two.

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But speaking from personal experience
that back when I had, you know, really,

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really chronic severe anxiety and panic
attacks, that there were things that

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triggered that and there were things
that I, naturally I would seek to avoid.

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Yeah, right.

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And so this back in the two thousands, and
I would've loved trigger warning culture.

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I would've been all about it.

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Like I would've been like, yes,
thank you for telling me that this

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show is gonna have three things that
are definitely gonna set me off.

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Um, or this article, or, you know, for
a long time there, I couldn't scroll.

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I couldn't scroll the feeds because
I was gonna come across something

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that was gonna send me spiraling.

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But what eventually happened is I
learned about how agoraphobia was

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just the old fashioned term now for
what we call generalized anxiety.

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And I learned about generalized
anxiety, which was that it's, it's

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it, it's a process that you end up at.

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You don't start with generalized anxiety.

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You start with something more
specific and then you end up.

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Uh, trying to avoid that thing.

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Then you end up trying to avoid
things that remind you of that thing.

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Then you try and then you end up with
a massive list of things that you're

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trying to avoid, and then your whole
life becomes avoidance basically.

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And then you can't leave the house.

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You, or you might not even
feel safe at home either.

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when I stopped answering text messages
and calls and, you know, things like

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that for a while So I was in a high,
I was in a state of high reactivity

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to things and was constantly trying to
manage my environment to, to remove the

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things that were gonna cause me to react.

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What I eventually learned, and
this is where trigger warning

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culture eventually landed at too.

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Was that the things that were setting me
off, I needed to face them at some point.

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Mm, that it wasn't gonna get
better by removing all of the

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things that made me reactive.

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Because even if I could control my media
diet to such an extent that there was

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nothing in there that made me feel unsafe,
people were still gonna say things like

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without meaning to, without being right
wing jerks, they without being edge

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lords, they were just gonna say things
just in a normal course of existence

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that tell a story about their own life
that was gonna make me feel awful.

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And I'm like, okay, well I have
to deal with these feelings.

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What kind of things were
triggering you back then?

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Well, anything.

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Well, uh, well, you know, anything to do
with death, uh, after my mother passed or

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even, you know, when she was still sick.

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well, anything to do with cancer.

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I can, I almost can't remember as much
of the detail now, which is a good thing.

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'cause you know, that's one of the,
apparently one of the things that really.

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Is helpful to us is we do forget and
it's good to forget, and to kinda

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let, let stuff fade a little bit.

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But it did, like I said, it
turned into a really massive list.

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things to do with relationships failing.

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interesting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, 'cause I, I feel like I
live my life a little bit like what you

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were describing from the two thousands.

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Like I've really.

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CI really control my media diet.

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Uh, I don't, I I went from
being a news junkie mm-hmm.

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Within, oh, I was a news junkie
too, as we've talked about.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Within economist subscription, who
would probably, even at my peak, even

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compared to you, Sam would know more
about what's going on in the world.

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Oh yeah.

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Even the little countries that no one
thinks about in Africa or whatever.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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I knew what the fuck was going on.

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Yeah.

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And I was paying.

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A top dollar to get this
information, and I felt great until

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I didn't, until it was really.

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You know, I think probably Ukraine
war was too overwhelming for me and

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just, yeah, a nuclear power going to
war in Europe was just like, mm-hmm.

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It was so shocking that I just
couldn't, it, it didn't seem, seem

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distant anymore, and it was just
too terrifying to contemplate.

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And I find Putin so
terrifying as a character.

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Mm-hmm.

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That I started to withdraw
and then I kept withdrawing.

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And then something I
mentioned on the show is.

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News organizations I used to trust growing
up, like The Guardian became really nasty.

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Clickbait, yeah.

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Organizations, and I think the
one I mentioned on the show was

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Planet Killing Asteroid headed
towards Earth was a mm-hmm.

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Clickbait headline they had.

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Yeah, when I'd had, yeah.

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You know, with my bipolar I'd
had months of losing sleep,

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thinking about an asteroid.

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Mm-hmm.

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hitting the earth and
killing us all, you know.

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Mm-hmm.

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Not months, almost a year or two.

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I thought about asteroids a lot.

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uh, that's just an example.

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I can relate.

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Yeah.

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That's just an example.

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But I, I just found I couldn't trust,
any of the news sources anymore.

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And then.

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Yeah.

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And then the economists turned really
propagandistic once the Ukraine

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war did start, and I didn't trust
them so much as a source anymore,

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which maybe I never should have.

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Mm-hmm.

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'cause they're highly ideological.

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Um, I think we should be suspicious of
absolutely every single media outlet.

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Not, not suspicious to the degree
that we just cannot get any sort

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of grip on reality whatsoever.

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Yeah.

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But, but that, you know,
there's a reasonable critique.

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That I could make of every single
media outlet you've mentioned.

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Yeah.

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And then when I, but what changed?

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What's changed in the
last 12 months is ai.

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Mm.

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Because now when I'm feeling strong,
not when I'm first thing in the

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morning, when I'm having my coffee.

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Yeah.

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When I'm anxious and raw.

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But when I'm feeling strong, give
yourself, give yourself a moment.

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Yeah.

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If I'm having a strong moment on a
Sunday afternoon relaxing mm-hmm.

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Dinners in the oven or something.

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Mm-hmm.

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Hey, chat GPT.

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What's going on with the Ukraine War?

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Okay.

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Is there a path to peace?

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What would that look like?

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How do we solve this problem?

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How?

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Who's working on solving climate change?

00:10:21.509 --> 00:10:23.489
What are some solutions here?

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And I frame my questions to AI in a
way that isn't just blood and gore.

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Mm-hmm.

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And enables me to engage
with the topic realistically.

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But in a framing that I find
is not a complete waste of time

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that's just going to, to get
back to the topic, make me react.

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Yeah.

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And you know, so I found it.

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It's been systematically clearing
my head for the last six months.

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Mm-hmm.

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These sessions I've had with chat.

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GPT.

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Yes.

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Like, because I can go so deep
and get into all the intricate

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details, but it's on my terms.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's without any, uh, images.

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I'm not watching footage
over a war taking place.

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I'm not looking at photos
of Putin or whatever.

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I, no, no, no.

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I, I don't think images of conflict
are useful for the most part.

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You might, you might need to see one
or two to, you know, get some sense.

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But if you're actually trying to, if
you're trying to understand what's

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going on, it, it, overall it is better
to stick with, with analysis and

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firsthand reports, I think is, you know.

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Yeah.

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But yeah, in terms of reaction
and reactivity, I tightly, now

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I tightly control my media diet.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because the other thing in my
lifetime that happened was.

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When I was a teenager, my parents
would get the newspaper delivered.

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Yeah.

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And I would read the news in the morning.

00:11:50.563 --> 00:11:50.863
Yeah.

00:11:51.043 --> 00:11:53.953
Or when I was in my early twenties,
I might read it in a cafe.

00:11:54.133 --> 00:11:54.373
Yep.

00:11:54.403 --> 00:11:57.163
While I was having a
sun dried tomato fica.

00:11:57.163 --> 00:11:57.223
Yeah.

00:11:58.123 --> 00:12:00.738
You know, in the, in the naughties.

00:12:00.883 --> 00:12:01.303
Oh man.

00:12:01.303 --> 00:12:02.053
You took me back.

00:12:02.058 --> 00:12:02.258
Yeah.

00:12:02.263 --> 00:12:02.653
Yeah.

00:12:02.713 --> 00:12:05.833
Oh, you, so I'd read, you're triggering
me with sun dried tomatoes right now.

00:12:05.923 --> 00:12:10.099
I'd read, I'd read the
paper in the morning.

00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:10.369
Yeah.

00:12:10.369 --> 00:12:11.809
And then forget about the news.

00:12:11.869 --> 00:12:12.889
Have a great day.

00:12:12.949 --> 00:12:14.329
Have a great Saturday night.

00:12:14.694 --> 00:12:18.264
And this was pre, you know, wake up
Sunday and then I might think about

00:12:18.264 --> 00:12:20.364
the news again and read a paper again.

00:12:20.364 --> 00:12:25.134
If I went to a cafe or whatever, or my
parents got one delivered or whatever.

00:12:25.884 --> 00:12:28.824
When it changed to having
an iPhone in my pocket.

00:12:29.154 --> 00:12:32.094
And if I wanted to, I could have Twitter.

00:12:32.364 --> 00:12:33.234
Twitter or the news.

00:12:33.234 --> 00:12:35.724
I mean, I reaction and reactivity.

00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:37.279
Is Twitter.

00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:38.569
Oh, absolutely.

00:12:38.624 --> 00:12:38.784
Yes.

00:12:38.784 --> 00:12:41.809
And someone like Donald Trump comes
along and is like, wow, here's this

00:12:41.809 --> 00:12:43.909
reaction and reactivity machine.

00:12:44.029 --> 00:12:44.419
Absolutely.

00:12:44.419 --> 00:12:45.439
I'm gonna use it.

00:12:45.439 --> 00:12:45.799
Mm-hmm.

00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:48.919
And react and activity my way into power.

00:12:48.949 --> 00:12:49.489
Yes.

00:12:49.549 --> 00:12:50.959
And the ultimate troll.

00:12:50.959 --> 00:12:51.319
Right?

00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:52.039
Absolutely.

00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:57.013
And, and it, and revealing in the
process over the last 10 years, well,

00:12:57.013 --> 00:13:00.793
he's done us all a favor in one sense
because I, I think everyone it, I think

00:13:00.793 --> 00:13:03.193
everyone is starting to realize that.

00:13:03.778 --> 00:13:07.198
The attention mill and the
reactive, the, you know, the

00:13:07.198 --> 00:13:08.848
reactivity of the news cycle.

00:13:08.878 --> 00:13:10.468
And then reacting to the reaction.

00:13:10.648 --> 00:13:12.688
And then reacting to the
reaction, to the reaction.

00:13:12.718 --> 00:13:15.628
Like I think we're all starting
to get a bit sick of that.

00:13:15.778 --> 00:13:19.345
And there seems to be a little bit more
appetite for like, not in all quarters,

00:13:19.345 --> 00:13:24.655
but to try to, to, you know, try to
change the conversation to like, okay,

00:13:24.685 --> 00:13:27.685
but what should we do versus spending our.

00:13:28.075 --> 00:13:31.105
Whole day, you know, getting wrapped
around the axle of whatever the

00:13:31.105 --> 00:13:35.665
latest stupid thing someone said,
and that it's also a terrible way

00:13:35.665 --> 00:13:38.095
to govern, so to govern by reaction.

00:13:38.095 --> 00:13:44.875
And that a lot of management that I've
dealt with over the years will not

00:13:44.875 --> 00:13:50.941
change policy, for sensible reasons, like
internal pressure from their own people.

00:13:51.241 --> 00:13:53.041
Like, Hey, this is what's happening.

00:13:53.071 --> 00:13:54.376
This is what the policy should be.

00:13:54.646 --> 00:13:54.936
Nope.

00:13:55.831 --> 00:14:00.699
But one phone call, one angry
phone call from a, stakeholder

00:14:01.089 --> 00:14:07.899
and there's a policy change that's
reactivity, so from management.

00:14:07.989 --> 00:14:12.370
So they're terrified of, you know,
this thing happens, so let's change

00:14:12.370 --> 00:14:16.030
everything to avoid that thing
happening again, rather than what's

00:14:16.030 --> 00:14:18.550
the, what's the reality that we want to.

00:14:18.835 --> 00:14:20.215
Try and help shape here.

00:14:20.335 --> 00:14:21.625
What's the positive version?

00:14:22.015 --> 00:14:26.305
And so I will say controlling the
media diet is a, is a sensible policy.

00:14:27.055 --> 00:14:29.695
And in your case, you've had to
control it more than most would

00:14:29.695 --> 00:14:31.645
for the sake of health and sanity.

00:14:32.155 --> 00:14:34.045
And so continue doing that.

00:14:34.795 --> 00:14:39.505
But you know, in wellbeing, we'll talk
about risk factors and protective factors.

00:14:39.775 --> 00:14:41.785
So yeah, cut down those risk factors.

00:14:41.815 --> 00:14:42.265
Sure.

00:14:42.505 --> 00:14:44.275
But what are the
protective factors, right?

00:14:44.305 --> 00:14:45.925
What are the things
that are gonna give you.

00:14:46.705 --> 00:14:50.485
The stomach and the ability to
withstand the stuff that does get in.

00:14:50.725 --> 00:14:52.885
You have to address that
side of the equation as well.

00:14:53.157 --> 00:14:56.517
what, in your case, you've been
able to increase those protective

00:14:56.517 --> 00:14:59.007
factors as well over time, so you.

00:14:59.922 --> 00:15:04.362
The ability to manage your sanity is not
just based entirely on avoiding the things

00:15:04.362 --> 00:15:12.264
that are No, I think that, meditation has
been a huge one for me and in the Buddhist

00:15:12.264 --> 00:15:15.693
sense to be a good practicing Buddhist.

00:15:15.933 --> 00:15:18.093
My understanding is we don't react.

00:15:18.513 --> 00:15:19.413
We respond.

00:15:19.863 --> 00:15:20.103
Yeah.

00:15:20.523 --> 00:15:20.793
Yeah.

00:15:20.943 --> 00:15:21.933
So we absorb.

00:15:22.593 --> 00:15:25.113
So I have to be willing to absorb.

00:15:25.263 --> 00:15:31.323
It's something scary that someone says,
so if I get to work and someone says, oh,

00:15:31.323 --> 00:15:33.393
do you hear what Trump did last night?

00:15:33.393 --> 00:15:35.013
I'll be like, what's this
the end of the world?

00:15:35.103 --> 00:15:35.313
Yeah.

00:15:35.403 --> 00:15:39.093
And then I have to go away in my
own time and talk to chat GPT and

00:15:39.093 --> 00:15:40.623
what's, what did Trump do yesterday?

00:15:40.623 --> 00:15:43.743
And it's 'cause stuff will get
in even with a complete lockdown

00:15:43.743 --> 00:15:45.243
on news media, which I have.

00:15:45.273 --> 00:15:45.993
That's what I'm saying.

00:15:46.098 --> 00:15:47.163
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:47.163 --> 00:15:50.643
Like we cannot, we cannot make
the environment 100% safe.

00:15:50.643 --> 00:15:51.093
We can't do it.

00:15:51.723 --> 00:15:51.783
No.

00:15:51.783 --> 00:15:51.785
And I.

00:15:52.848 --> 00:15:57.513
I, I don't want to be putting my head
in the sand, but I'm not, because when

00:15:57.513 --> 00:16:00.573
I take my time and I reflect mm-hmm.

00:16:00.933 --> 00:16:04.383
I do ask questions about Gaza.

00:16:04.383 --> 00:16:06.483
I do ask questions about Ukraine.

00:16:07.713 --> 00:16:14.977
I do ask questions about climate, but
it's a conversation between me and AI and.

00:16:15.204 --> 00:16:19.614
I, you know, I also, the other thing I
tried to do before I went to a full media

00:16:19.614 --> 00:16:22.464
plan was to have a couple of bloggers.

00:16:23.109 --> 00:16:25.569
And that went really sour on me as well.

00:16:25.574 --> 00:16:25.694
Yeah.

00:16:25.699 --> 00:16:25.869
Yeah.

00:16:25.869 --> 00:16:29.619
Like I was following Noah Smith
and then he started predicting

00:16:29.619 --> 00:16:33.339
terrifying things around China, and
then I was losing sleep over that.

00:16:33.339 --> 00:16:36.219
And yeah, I think that he's not
a foreign policy expert, but

00:16:36.219 --> 00:16:38.469
he's just a very engaging writer.

00:16:38.499 --> 00:16:38.979
Yes.

00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.529
I thought I could just have
one person who was what?

00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.159
It's almost like there's one person,
he's reading all the news, he's

00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:46.989
telling me what I need to know.

00:16:47.264 --> 00:16:48.584
And that's how he markets himself.

00:16:48.584 --> 00:16:49.244
And he is Yes.

00:16:49.274 --> 00:16:50.564
You know, making millions doing it.

00:16:50.624 --> 00:16:51.764
Yes, that's right.

00:16:51.824 --> 00:16:55.724
Uh, but in the end, that's
a really, that is worse.

00:16:55.724 --> 00:16:58.634
It's worse than the New York Times
because, Hey, and look, I actually not

00:16:58.634 --> 00:17:03.344
against that idea in, in general, like,
I think a handful of trusted voices.

00:17:03.349 --> 00:17:03.949
Yeah, a handful.

00:17:04.484 --> 00:17:04.694
Yeah.

00:17:04.724 --> 00:17:04.844
Yeah.

00:17:04.844 --> 00:17:07.994
As a conduit is actually
probably a, a really good,

00:17:08.564 --> 00:17:10.004
really good way to go about it.

00:17:10.004 --> 00:17:11.084
And it's kind of what I do.

00:17:11.084 --> 00:17:14.160
I have a handful of trusted,
people that I listen to.

00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:14.190
Uh.

00:17:14.588 --> 00:17:19.868
but also those people are a gateway
to other trusted people, and so it's

00:17:19.868 --> 00:17:21.518
an, it's an information network.

00:17:21.548 --> 00:17:25.088
I've noticed with you, you
maintain a level head, like mm-hmm.

00:17:25.538 --> 00:17:27.188
And you go deep into stuff.

00:17:27.248 --> 00:17:27.428
I do.

00:17:27.428 --> 00:17:27.488
Yeah.

00:17:27.488 --> 00:17:28.418
Like we were talking about.

00:17:28.863 --> 00:17:31.773
Uh, Russia, Ukraine in the group
chat a couple of months ago.

00:17:31.773 --> 00:17:31.833
Yeah.

00:17:31.833 --> 00:17:36.003
And you were able to give me, as you said,
probably like an undergraduate level.

00:17:36.243 --> 00:17:36.333
Mm-hmm.

00:17:36.573 --> 00:17:41.103
Russia expert understanding from the just
sheer amount of stuff you somehow absorbed

00:17:41.103 --> 00:17:46.233
while doing domestic tasks and whatever
you do, you know, working a full-time job,

00:17:46.623 --> 00:17:50.317
you seem to have hoovered up incredible
amount of information about Russia,

00:17:50.317 --> 00:17:52.057
Ukraine, but you've never once said to me.

00:17:52.837 --> 00:17:54.697
Oh, I'm really scared or whatever.

00:17:54.697 --> 00:17:55.267
It's really no.

00:17:55.297 --> 00:17:58.417
Triggered me and I've lost
heaps of sleep and I'm reacting

00:17:58.417 --> 00:18:00.127
to it in this sickening way.

00:18:00.127 --> 00:18:05.017
And well, I've got good news for you in
the sense that I, I, I do actually, I

00:18:05.017 --> 00:18:07.987
don't wanna leave you on a rock feeling
like you're the only one worried about it.

00:18:07.987 --> 00:18:08.317
Right.

00:18:08.497 --> 00:18:13.237
So there are times when it has
worried me, and one of those things

00:18:13.237 --> 00:18:14.767
was, you know, Trump's reelection.

00:18:14.767 --> 00:18:20.587
But of course, I went back to the
fundamentals in my analysis, which were.

00:18:20.977 --> 00:18:24.655
That the act, you know, you listen to
the experts on the conflict and they'll

00:18:24.655 --> 00:18:29.575
tell you that Trump's reelection,
they'll tell they'd told you this back in

00:18:29.575 --> 00:18:33.475
October or September last year, that his
reelection is not gonna solve anything for

00:18:33.475 --> 00:18:38.485
Russia because the fundamental problems
they're facing are far too difficult.

00:18:38.665 --> 00:18:41.965
They're not gonna be able to get
themselves out of this mess just because,

00:18:42.166 --> 00:18:46.306
best even if every single thing they
ever dreamed Trump might be able to do.

00:18:46.468 --> 00:18:48.148
to make their lives easier.

00:18:48.898 --> 00:18:53.158
Even if all of that happened, they would
still be in a very difficult position and

00:18:53.158 --> 00:18:55.078
would have to negotiate sooner or later.

00:18:55.468 --> 00:18:57.388
So that's the good news.

00:18:57.388 --> 00:19:01.888
But there was, for about a month
there, I steered away from it and I

00:19:01.888 --> 00:19:05.548
had this sick feeling that like it
was gonna go off the rails again.

00:19:06.238 --> 00:19:06.808
But no.

00:19:07.078 --> 00:19:09.148
So where my, where my feelings are at.

00:19:10.123 --> 00:19:14.803
About that conflict is
that I feel sad about it.

00:19:14.997 --> 00:19:19.890
and I feel a natural level of
concern and I'm quite, I'm, uh, I'm

00:19:19.890 --> 00:19:24.960
sad for the suffering of the, the
average person on both sides of that

00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:29.610
conflict, but I'm fairly morally
clear about who's in the wrong.

00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:34.590
Overall, and there have been some
irresponsible actors on both sides, but

00:19:35.550 --> 00:19:39.720
there is a clear aggressor and there's a
clear party that needs to defend itself.

00:19:40.230 --> 00:19:43.200
And I'm confident that they're
gonna be able to do that.

00:19:43.410 --> 00:19:48.900
And the fear scenario, what we've
seen again and again and again,

00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:54.000
the red lines that Putin has drawn,
have been stepped over without.

00:19:54.525 --> 00:19:58.155
Any meaningful response and
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's

00:19:58.155 --> 00:19:59.505
a paper tiger at this point.

00:19:59.736 --> 00:20:04.326
When I thought that Putin was
gonna blow up the world, or my mind

00:20:04.326 --> 00:20:06.156
was telling me, yeah, I've got.

00:20:06.591 --> 00:20:09.141
It's worth remembering that
I have bipolar disorder.

00:20:09.201 --> 00:20:09.501
Yes.

00:20:09.501 --> 00:20:11.091
It's, it's worth remembering.

00:20:11.121 --> 00:20:11.331
Yes.

00:20:11.331 --> 00:20:14.871
And I get apocalyptic visions
just for fun, you know?

00:20:14.901 --> 00:20:15.201
Yes.

00:20:15.591 --> 00:20:17.331
And even if there wasn't
Russia going on, no.

00:20:17.541 --> 00:20:17.601
Yeah.

00:20:17.601 --> 00:20:19.341
It'd still be meteors and whatever.

00:20:19.941 --> 00:20:20.031
Yeah.

00:20:20.031 --> 00:20:21.531
If I, if I can do asteroids.

00:20:21.561 --> 00:20:21.951
Yeah.

00:20:22.161 --> 00:20:22.611
And.

00:20:23.646 --> 00:20:26.646
I can do volcanoes, then I
can easily do nuclear war.

00:20:27.246 --> 00:20:27.756
That's right.

00:20:27.756 --> 00:20:32.136
And when I was in it and it was bad, I
was reading The Economist at the time.

00:20:32.196 --> 00:20:32.376
Mm-hmm.

00:20:33.096 --> 00:20:37.656
And someone said to me, an old friend
said, it's like it's you and some

00:20:37.656 --> 00:20:41.316
people in Montana who were convinced
that the world's about to blow up.

00:20:41.526 --> 00:20:41.706
Yeah.

00:20:42.246 --> 00:20:43.806
Like, which was probably helpful.

00:20:44.526 --> 00:20:45.126
It was helpful.

00:20:45.126 --> 00:20:45.576
Yeah.

00:20:46.116 --> 00:20:49.746
But so, so, 'cause that's
the other way with.

00:20:50.301 --> 00:20:52.401
To respond rather than react.

00:20:52.401 --> 00:20:52.491
Mm-hmm.

00:20:52.791 --> 00:20:55.191
Is to become an ex subject matter expert.

00:20:55.551 --> 00:20:55.731
Yes.

00:20:55.731 --> 00:20:57.801
So you can read everything on something.

00:20:57.861 --> 00:20:57.951
Yes.

00:20:57.951 --> 00:20:59.361
And by the time you
read everything mm-hmm.

00:21:00.891 --> 00:21:02.271
You'll usually calm down.

00:21:02.601 --> 00:21:02.991
Yes.

00:21:03.051 --> 00:21:05.031
As opposed to a headline.

00:21:05.241 --> 00:21:05.331
Mm-hmm.

00:21:05.871 --> 00:21:06.681
Or a tweet.

00:21:06.891 --> 00:21:07.011
Yes.

00:21:07.041 --> 00:21:08.871
And those click bait headlines.

00:21:09.037 --> 00:21:11.617
you know, planet killing
asteroid headed towards Earth.

00:21:11.617 --> 00:21:14.797
The point is you click on the article,
and the article reassures you.

00:21:14.797 --> 00:21:14.887
Yes.

00:21:14.887 --> 00:21:17.347
And then you have this emotional
reaction, which is, yeah.

00:21:17.647 --> 00:21:18.367
Oh, thank you.

00:21:18.367 --> 00:21:18.877
Guardian.

00:21:18.877 --> 00:21:19.027
Yeah.

00:21:19.057 --> 00:21:20.047
Oh, what's this button?

00:21:20.047 --> 00:21:20.617
Donate?

00:21:20.827 --> 00:21:20.917
Mm-hmm.

00:21:21.247 --> 00:21:21.637
Oh, great.

00:21:21.637 --> 00:21:22.267
I'll donate.

00:21:22.267 --> 00:21:23.557
Thanks for calming me down.

00:21:23.557 --> 00:21:24.367
It's like, no, no.

00:21:24.607 --> 00:21:27.362
The guardian triggered you,
the fireman who comes Yeah.

00:21:27.517 --> 00:21:27.787
Yeah.

00:21:27.787 --> 00:21:29.497
The arsonist who comes back as a fireman.

00:21:29.497 --> 00:21:29.827
Yeah.

00:21:29.827 --> 00:21:29.828
Yeah.

00:21:29.833 --> 00:21:30.277
Absolutely.

00:21:30.277 --> 00:21:31.627
No, it's, it's abusive.

00:21:31.627 --> 00:21:31.717
Right?

00:21:32.157 --> 00:21:32.457
Tr.

00:21:32.517 --> 00:21:32.847
Yeah.

00:21:32.877 --> 00:21:35.697
Clickbait headlines are followed
by articles which calm you down.

00:21:35.697 --> 00:21:35.787
Yes.

00:21:36.057 --> 00:21:38.577
Or reading thousands of
articles like you did.

00:21:38.582 --> 00:21:38.682
Mm-hmm.

00:21:38.802 --> 00:21:38.803
Mm-hmm.

00:21:38.907 --> 00:21:40.257
PO listening to podcasts Yeah.

00:21:40.467 --> 00:21:43.017
Will eventually calm
you down because mm-hmm.

00:21:43.257 --> 00:21:47.457
Behind the latest statement
or, uh, maneuver or whatever

00:21:47.457 --> 00:21:49.407
is long term strategy.

00:21:49.467 --> 00:21:49.917
Yes.

00:21:49.917 --> 00:21:51.897
There's a long term strategy of Russia.

00:21:51.897 --> 00:21:57.087
There's a long term strategy of the us,
same with China, and those things actually

00:21:57.087 --> 00:21:59.882
move a lot more slowly than the latest.

00:22:00.532 --> 00:22:01.042
Headlines.

00:22:01.522 --> 00:22:02.452
Yes, that's right.

00:22:02.452 --> 00:22:04.432
So that, that's the really key thing.

00:22:04.672 --> 00:22:07.372
When you, you listen to the
sort of the academics who study

00:22:07.372 --> 00:22:10.912
this stuff for a living and you
know, they've got a steady job.

00:22:10.912 --> 00:22:14.032
They're not reliant on
a monetized audience.

00:22:14.062 --> 00:22:14.182
Yeah.

00:22:14.272 --> 00:22:16.852
And they're not, they're not
captured by a particular discourse.

00:22:16.912 --> 00:22:20.212
They might have their biases,
but the overall, they are nerds

00:22:20.212 --> 00:22:21.652
who wanna understand something.

00:22:21.832 --> 00:22:27.532
And those are the people to listen to
and have that same mentality of going

00:22:27.532 --> 00:22:31.245
from, Uh, like, and this, this applies
to all the things in my life that have

00:22:31.245 --> 00:22:36.345
triggered me over the years and that I've
had to learn, oh, if something's worrying

00:22:36.345 --> 00:22:40.902
me, I need to direct my attention to it.

00:22:41.802 --> 00:22:46.092
But also find out what's beneath,
like what's causing the worry?

00:22:46.302 --> 00:22:48.402
What is it about this particular topic?

00:22:49.062 --> 00:22:51.732
That is bringing this out in me.

00:22:52.032 --> 00:22:52.872
What's that?

00:22:52.932 --> 00:22:54.312
What's the layer beneath that?

00:22:54.312 --> 00:22:54.313
Yeah.

00:22:54.318 --> 00:22:55.302
What, what, yeah.

00:22:55.302 --> 00:23:00.464
And so for, so for me, for me, three years
ago, there was more work to do in therapy.

00:23:00.524 --> 00:23:00.824
Yeah.

00:23:01.274 --> 00:23:04.784
About understanding what I
didn't get from my childhood.

00:23:04.844 --> 00:23:04.994
Mm-hmm.

00:23:05.564 --> 00:23:07.124
Which I needed to get.

00:23:07.184 --> 00:23:07.694
Yes.

00:23:08.024 --> 00:23:09.704
And that meant that.

00:23:10.694 --> 00:23:14.894
While other people might be a little bit
worried about a war in Eastern Europe.

00:23:15.014 --> 00:23:15.344
Yeah.

00:23:15.434 --> 00:23:17.624
I was convinced we were all going to die.

00:23:17.774 --> 00:23:18.254
Yes.

00:23:18.704 --> 00:23:20.834
So the problem was in me.

00:23:20.894 --> 00:23:21.884
Yes it was.

00:23:21.884 --> 00:23:23.384
It was always there was this.

00:23:23.954 --> 00:23:27.464
Thing in me that triggered
is a perfect word for it.

00:23:27.494 --> 00:23:27.584
Mm-hmm.

00:23:28.304 --> 00:23:30.974
I get triggered and then I spiral.

00:23:31.064 --> 00:23:31.334
Yeah.

00:23:31.394 --> 00:23:34.814
And then I can't stop seeing
these apocalyptic visions.

00:23:35.414 --> 00:23:35.504
Mm-hmm.

00:23:35.744 --> 00:23:37.784
And then I'm distracted
from my daily life.

00:23:37.814 --> 00:23:38.084
Yes.

00:23:38.084 --> 00:23:39.254
And that's, yeah.

00:23:39.644 --> 00:23:44.354
Why I think I ended up coming around to
this media blackout thing is like mm-hmm.

00:23:45.044 --> 00:23:49.544
I'm now, you know, being good dad
doing some good work in mental health.

00:23:49.750 --> 00:23:55.510
I am able to, in my sphere of
influence, be a positive person.

00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:58.390
If I'm not distracted Yes.

00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:02.110
But if I'm distracted, if I'm down
some rabbit hole buried in the phone.

00:24:02.350 --> 00:24:03.010
Yeah.

00:24:03.070 --> 00:24:05.140
Like I'm buried in the
phone enough already.

00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:05.590
Yeah, yeah.

00:24:05.620 --> 00:24:07.960
You're not there for the people that Yeah.

00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.200
I'm suddenly, I'm just
distracted from my own life.

00:24:11.230 --> 00:24:11.920
Mm-hmm.

00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:12.940
That's that.

00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:13.390
That's right.

00:24:13.413 --> 00:24:18.086
Adam's pointed this out to me so many
times and uh, and what is the purpose?

00:24:18.368 --> 00:24:24.128
Your, what is your purpose in being
really interested in this thing and

00:24:24.128 --> 00:24:25.628
building these castles in the air?

00:24:25.628 --> 00:24:26.558
What's your purpose?

00:24:26.558 --> 00:24:27.518
What, yeah, what's that?

00:24:27.548 --> 00:24:29.888
What's that getting you away from
when I realized you'd become a

00:24:29.888 --> 00:24:32.498
Russia expert, I thought, well,
Sam's obviously got other things

00:24:32.498 --> 00:24:34.178
going on in his life that he's Yeah.

00:24:34.178 --> 00:24:35.618
Distracting himself from.

00:24:36.758 --> 00:24:39.098
Well, one of the, one of
the genuine reasons was.

00:24:40.118 --> 00:24:44.738
Is this going to be a huge
problem that will come home to me?

00:24:44.911 --> 00:24:48.143
like there was a genuinely, like
I needed to address that question.

00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:53.140
but also as always, there's always
something quite personal and yes,

00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:56.110
it's engaging and yes, it takes
me away from other concerns.

00:24:56.320 --> 00:24:56.740
Sure.

00:24:57.430 --> 00:24:59.530
Uh, but I think that I'd
always had this enduring.

00:25:00.415 --> 00:25:05.545
Fascination with Russia, the Soviet Union,
and you know, czars Russia before that.

00:25:05.695 --> 00:25:09.883
And I was interested in the way
the psychology of the way we

00:25:09.883 --> 00:25:11.358
talk about that country and.

00:25:11.841 --> 00:25:14.871
that form of territory and what the
Soviet Union represented in people's

00:25:14.871 --> 00:25:18.111
minds and you know, sort of fears
and fantasies people project onto it.

00:25:18.171 --> 00:25:18.231
Yeah.

00:25:18.411 --> 00:25:22.641
So I felt like it was this really fertile
psychoanalytical territory and there

00:25:22.641 --> 00:25:26.241
are people that talk about the sort
of psychology of how we think about

00:25:26.241 --> 00:25:32.004
Russia and yeah, it because it is like
we simultaneously sort of feel this

00:25:32.004 --> 00:25:35.945
pity and contempt, but also this fear
you know that they built these cannons

00:25:35.945 --> 00:25:39.845
down in Hobart back in 1890 'cause
they were worried about the Russians.

00:25:39.845 --> 00:25:40.145
You know?

00:25:40.175 --> 00:25:40.325
Yeah.

00:25:40.325 --> 00:25:41.915
It's like, it's this thing that goes back.

00:25:41.915 --> 00:25:44.525
The Russians have been a
problem for a long time.

00:25:44.615 --> 00:25:47.825
They've really been this
useful monster as well.

00:25:47.855 --> 00:25:48.185
Yeah.

00:25:48.185 --> 00:25:48.545
Yes.

00:25:48.545 --> 00:25:49.236
But see, when I.

00:25:49.865 --> 00:25:52.295
I never really thought
about Putin as a person.

00:25:52.295 --> 00:25:56.555
He was just someone whose photos would
appear in the Economist and he was making

00:25:56.555 --> 00:25:58.925
terrifying threats towards the west.

00:25:59.015 --> 00:25:59.405
Yes.

00:25:59.465 --> 00:26:02.405
And then he did that
interview with Tucker Carlson.

00:26:02.405 --> 00:26:02.615
Yeah.

00:26:02.975 --> 00:26:05.135
And I was like, oh, he
is actually pretty funny.

00:26:05.465 --> 00:26:05.945
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:05.945 --> 00:26:06.395
Oh no, no.

00:26:06.395 --> 00:26:07.235
He is got some witch.

00:26:07.235 --> 00:26:09.965
And I was like, and he's also a human.

00:26:10.075 --> 00:26:14.215
Much as opposed to he'd become like
a, a bit like a Satan type figure.

00:26:14.245 --> 00:26:14.905
Oh, absolutely.

00:26:14.905 --> 00:26:17.640
No, in my in, I'm not saying in
a supernatural monster, someone

00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:18.505
monster, someone dumber than me.

00:26:18.505 --> 00:26:20.605
I'm saying in my mind, no, of course.

00:26:20.665 --> 00:26:22.015
Come like a supernatural.

00:26:22.015 --> 00:26:24.025
Yeah, like Satan type.

00:26:24.385 --> 00:26:26.635
He's gonna be the last thing
we all see on our TV screen.

00:26:26.635 --> 00:26:27.865
That's right Before we all die.

00:26:27.865 --> 00:26:31.855
I think you were, you were
very primed to accept.

00:26:32.190 --> 00:26:36.870
The, the subtle and not so
subtle ways that he's been

00:26:36.870 --> 00:26:38.460
animated as that sort of figure.

00:26:38.580 --> 00:26:38.790
Yeah.

00:26:38.790 --> 00:26:41.010
And that, that's serving
very useful purposes.

00:26:41.010 --> 00:26:46.363
Be for, for one, that people
aren't wrong when they say,

00:26:46.483 --> 00:26:48.043
you know, he's a thug and a.

00:26:48.103 --> 00:26:55.183
Uh, mafioso, you know, like all of
that's true, but it's a great way to

00:26:55.723 --> 00:26:58.093
make some other thing look better.

00:26:58.423 --> 00:27:00.763
Some other thing that,
like western capitalism.

00:27:00.763 --> 00:27:00.853
Yes.

00:27:00.853 --> 00:27:03.313
Some other thing that ought
to be staunchly critiqued.

00:27:03.509 --> 00:27:09.656
The, it's, it's this, it's this,
uh, perverted, cracked, uh, darkened

00:27:09.656 --> 00:27:11.966
mirror that, that we look into.

00:27:12.056 --> 00:27:18.256
And what I learned about how the West
has fantasized and and nightmare about

00:27:18.256 --> 00:27:22.996
Russia helped me to understand a lot
more about human psychology in general

00:27:22.996 --> 00:27:27.136
and how we like build up these things in
our mind, that we project things onto.

00:27:27.556 --> 00:27:29.776
Uh, we, we make things the.

00:27:30.156 --> 00:27:31.236
The scapegoat.

00:27:31.566 --> 00:27:33.516
We make people a scapegoat.

00:27:33.633 --> 00:27:37.293
we project the things we hate about
our most hate about ourselves.

00:27:37.293 --> 00:27:39.813
We project onto a very selected other.

00:27:40.653 --> 00:27:40.893
Yeah.

00:27:40.893 --> 00:27:42.423
And so for, for incel.

00:27:43.323 --> 00:27:47.193
Women become the, yeah, the source
and target of all that is evil.

00:27:47.193 --> 00:27:51.453
And all they despise about themselves is
put onto women for white supremacists.

00:27:51.453 --> 00:27:55.983
They can put all their fears and
fantasies onto the colored other,

00:27:56.403 --> 00:28:00.663
and we're all, we're all doing this
process until we become aware of it.

00:28:00.813 --> 00:28:02.253
And this is a very Buddhist type thing.

00:28:02.823 --> 00:28:06.153
You know what you're gonna put
on the other, it's, you know,

00:28:06.513 --> 00:28:08.718
you gotta say to yourself, oh.

00:28:09.558 --> 00:28:11.088
I know they are, but what am I?

00:28:11.088 --> 00:28:12.108
Yeah, what is the what?

00:28:12.108 --> 00:28:16.098
What am I actually saying about myself
with all this stuff that I'm, yeah.

00:28:16.158 --> 00:28:19.938
Putting onto people with this stuff I'm
worrying about learn about yourself.

00:28:19.938 --> 00:28:23.778
And that's what I eventually realized,
that like it's my study in this area

00:28:23.778 --> 00:28:26.452
had just pointed, pointed back to, Yeah.

00:28:26.457 --> 00:28:29.107
What sort of problem
are we trying to ignore?

00:28:29.107 --> 00:28:31.177
What sort of blame are
we trying to deflect?

00:28:31.177 --> 00:28:34.087
What, what sort of self-critique
are we trying to avoid here?

00:28:34.087 --> 00:28:34.177
Yeah.

00:28:34.387 --> 00:28:38.677
I, I think that it took me five
years in therapy to realize that,

00:28:38.763 --> 00:28:39.887
there was always gonna be another.

00:28:40.217 --> 00:28:41.957
Thing to be scared of.

00:28:42.047 --> 00:28:42.557
Yes.

00:28:42.887 --> 00:28:44.447
And it was very clear.

00:28:44.447 --> 00:28:44.537
Mm-hmm.

00:28:44.867 --> 00:28:46.907
'cause my fears are so vivid.

00:28:46.997 --> 00:28:47.177
Yeah.

00:28:47.207 --> 00:28:49.547
That it was climate change
when I went in there.

00:28:49.817 --> 00:28:50.087
Yeah.

00:28:50.147 --> 00:28:53.987
And then COVID started, then it was
COVID for a while, and then, yeah.

00:28:54.332 --> 00:28:58.592
Ukraine War started, so then it was
Ukraine War, and then I kind of released

00:28:58.592 --> 00:29:00.182
it and the next one was gonna be ai.

00:29:00.182 --> 00:29:01.442
That's definitely the next one.

00:29:01.472 --> 00:29:01.982
Yes.

00:29:02.102 --> 00:29:04.712
Um, very easy to project
anything you want onto that.

00:29:04.712 --> 00:29:05.197
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:05.297 --> 00:29:10.142
So, yeah, but I stopped short of AI
and, and sort of spun around a 180

00:29:10.142 --> 00:29:14.132
and thought, I actually find this
really good and really helpful, and I

00:29:14.132 --> 00:29:15.812
think it could really help humanity.

00:29:16.202 --> 00:29:18.872
So I started reading a
Doom, a book, and I thought.

00:29:19.652 --> 00:29:21.182
I'm not gonna become a DOR about it.

00:29:21.182 --> 00:29:22.622
If it wipes me out, it wipes me out.

00:29:22.622 --> 00:29:27.152
I haven't found the domer side of
it as convincing as I might have.

00:29:27.235 --> 00:29:29.845
and maybe that's because I am
better at managing fears and

00:29:29.845 --> 00:29:32.035
deconstructing the fears that I have.

00:29:32.035 --> 00:29:32.215
Yeah.

00:29:32.215 --> 00:29:35.005
You are also good at
understanding tech, which I'm not.

00:29:35.545 --> 00:29:36.175
I can, I can say.

00:29:37.482 --> 00:29:41.442
With my undergraduate creative
arts background, I can have a

00:29:41.442 --> 00:29:45.912
literate conversation with chat
GPT that I find deeply satisfying.

00:29:46.092 --> 00:29:46.212
Mm.

00:29:46.722 --> 00:29:49.273
And that is tech that
I like, whereas Yeah.

00:29:49.482 --> 00:29:49.632
Yeah.

00:29:49.662 --> 00:29:51.882
Like code or whatever.

00:29:51.912 --> 00:29:57.375
I was never gonna come at code, so
suddenly cutting Edge Tech has come into

00:29:57.375 --> 00:29:59.445
my language and I like it, you know?

00:29:59.475 --> 00:30:01.785
Well, well, it can also
help you to understand code.

00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:02.790
If you want.

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:07.920
Um, I don't want, well, you know,
we can, you can, you can, you

00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:09.360
can ask it to write some for you.

00:30:09.630 --> 00:30:14.233
But, but I think that, I did the work
in therapy and I'm, I wanna pause at

00:30:14.233 --> 00:30:16.388
the moment and I might go back, but I.

00:30:16.708 --> 00:30:18.538
I think I was able to see that.

00:30:19.138 --> 00:30:24.298
The one thing I couldn't admit to myself
was that despite their best efforts, my

00:30:24.298 --> 00:30:27.718
parents didn't give me the emotional Yeah.

00:30:27.778 --> 00:30:29.968
Stability and nourishment that I needed.

00:30:30.088 --> 00:30:30.598
Yes.

00:30:30.688 --> 00:30:32.578
And they also put me down at times.

00:30:32.578 --> 00:30:32.668
Mm-hmm.

00:30:32.968 --> 00:30:38.038
And I came into adulthood with this
gaping fucking wound inside me.

00:30:38.278 --> 00:30:38.488
Mm-hmm.

00:30:38.673 --> 00:30:39.973
And that can be filled.

00:30:39.973 --> 00:30:40.333
Mm-hmm.

00:30:40.339 --> 00:30:44.428
With a Putin or So we talk
about reaction and reactivity.

00:30:44.458 --> 00:30:44.638
Yeah.

00:30:45.118 --> 00:30:47.878
It's What are you carrying
around before the thing happens?

00:30:47.908 --> 00:30:50.158
Well, that's, you know, before
you see the headlines Yes.

00:30:50.308 --> 00:30:50.848
Or whatever.

00:30:50.848 --> 00:30:51.058
That's right.

00:30:51.058 --> 00:30:54.298
What are you, what, and that's
where meditation comes in for me.

00:30:54.298 --> 00:30:54.388
Mm-hmm.

00:30:54.388 --> 00:31:01.258
Is I stabilize myself every day so that
when those bad moments happen mm-hmm.

00:31:01.648 --> 00:31:04.468
Or like I've had scares with my
kids' health and stuff like that.

00:31:04.528 --> 00:31:04.798
Yeah.

00:31:04.918 --> 00:31:08.248
When the shit goes down, I find
myself to be quite calm actually.

00:31:08.578 --> 00:31:08.878
Yes.

00:31:08.908 --> 00:31:13.378
Like when it's time to take a kid to the
hospital, I'm calm and focused and clear.

00:31:14.038 --> 00:31:16.348
Uh, and what's the difference
between those two things?

00:31:16.348 --> 00:31:21.753
You know, you can think about that, that
the media or the asteroid or whatever you,

00:31:21.758 --> 00:31:26.578
you can't do much about, but, well, no,
and sometimes in a emergency there might

00:31:26.578 --> 00:31:28.918
not be much you can do, but I don't know.

00:31:28.918 --> 00:31:32.578
It's direct and you are there and
someone's counting on you and.

00:31:33.088 --> 00:31:33.658
Yeah.

00:31:33.658 --> 00:31:38.278
I think a lot of reactivity initially
in my life came from a fear of death.

00:31:38.398 --> 00:31:38.668
Yeah.

00:31:38.788 --> 00:31:41.848
And therapy's done enough
work that that's diminished.

00:31:41.848 --> 00:31:45.028
And it's something you said on
the show was a fear of death is

00:31:45.028 --> 00:31:47.398
really a fear of a life wasted.

00:31:47.758 --> 00:31:48.208
Yes.

00:31:48.268 --> 00:31:52.498
And I think when I was around getting
minimal work in the film industry Yeah.

00:31:52.768 --> 00:31:55.198
And then when I did the work,
it was meaningless to me.

00:31:55.618 --> 00:31:58.408
I had a lot of fear of death that I,
that's gonna do it now that I rock

00:31:58.408 --> 00:32:01.648
up five days a week in public mental
health and the work is meaningful.

00:32:02.203 --> 00:32:05.383
That fear is not, it's just
not there in the same way.

00:32:06.343 --> 00:32:06.658
Um, yeah.

00:32:06.663 --> 00:32:07.003
Yeah.

00:32:07.003 --> 00:32:07.813
That, that, yeah.

00:32:07.813 --> 00:32:10.873
I've gotta say that was a big
help for me to, to, you know, be

00:32:10.873 --> 00:32:12.643
able to say most days at least.

00:32:12.703 --> 00:32:16.903
Uh, well, I mean, I don't know how good of
a job I did, but I mean, I made an effort.

00:32:17.053 --> 00:32:17.413
Yeah.

00:32:17.473 --> 00:32:20.638
I feel like I've earned my keep Yeah.

00:32:20.638 --> 00:32:21.913
With the world, you know?

00:32:22.093 --> 00:32:22.303
Yeah.

00:32:22.303 --> 00:32:23.563
That's what I'm doing at the moment.

00:32:23.623 --> 00:32:23.863
Yeah.

00:32:23.863 --> 00:32:25.543
And I'm, yeah.

00:32:25.543 --> 00:32:28.033
I've still got plenty of
struggles when I felt useless.

00:32:28.348 --> 00:32:28.588
Yeah.

00:32:28.588 --> 00:32:29.788
To myself and to humanity.

00:32:29.788 --> 00:32:30.568
Then I fear death.

00:32:30.628 --> 00:32:33.148
I mean, anxiety could, was inescapable.

00:32:33.148 --> 00:32:33.988
Yeah.

00:32:33.988 --> 00:32:38.239
You know, and like, yeah, someone gave
me that advice years ago and it took

00:32:38.239 --> 00:32:40.159
a little while to put it into action.

00:32:40.159 --> 00:32:44.509
But you know, I've said this
before on here, it was Marni,

00:32:44.749 --> 00:32:45.709
my dad's old girlfriend.

00:32:45.709 --> 00:32:50.689
She said, you know, you're
happiest when you've got something

00:32:50.689 --> 00:32:53.779
to do and or you know, when
you're focusing on someone else.

00:32:54.139 --> 00:32:54.409
Yeah.

00:32:54.439 --> 00:32:57.289
Uh, for a minute, you know, and
you get outta your own mess.

00:32:57.349 --> 00:32:57.649
Yeah.

00:32:57.654 --> 00:32:58.609
You, you feel a lot better.

00:32:58.609 --> 00:32:58.669
Yeah.

00:32:58.669 --> 00:33:01.399
And like do stuff for
other people, you know?

00:33:01.639 --> 00:33:01.879
Yeah.

00:33:01.879 --> 00:33:02.464
And I'm like, yeah.

00:33:02.464 --> 00:33:03.469
And that's what Sure.

00:33:03.469 --> 00:33:06.739
That's what, um, addiction recovery,
the stuff that I've done the last

00:33:06.739 --> 00:33:08.119
10 years is all based on that.

00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:08.629
Mm-hmm.

00:33:08.689 --> 00:33:11.269
Getting outta self, being
there for other people.

00:33:11.419 --> 00:33:11.809
Yeah.

00:33:11.869 --> 00:33:12.139
Yeah.

00:33:12.139 --> 00:33:12.589
That's right.

00:33:12.589 --> 00:33:13.579
That's, that's how it works.

00:33:13.639 --> 00:33:13.879
Yeah.

00:33:13.879 --> 00:33:14.149
You know?

00:33:14.449 --> 00:33:14.569
Yeah.

00:33:14.569 --> 00:33:15.769
Like, that's, that's it.

00:33:15.951 --> 00:33:18.770
Take someone who's, you know,
to use your phrase, wrapped

00:33:18.770 --> 00:33:20.390
around the axle of their own ego.

00:33:21.035 --> 00:33:23.075
And it says, why don't you go
and help that other person?

00:33:23.075 --> 00:33:24.065
They need help too.

00:33:24.215 --> 00:33:25.175
Yeah.

00:33:25.175 --> 00:33:25.176
Yes.

00:33:25.176 --> 00:33:25.178
You know?

00:33:25.265 --> 00:33:25.625
Yes.

00:33:25.625 --> 00:33:29.255
And that's, that's one of the
main principles of that addiction

00:33:29.422 --> 00:33:31.192
recovery work that I've done.

00:33:31.247 --> 00:33:35.013
but I wanted to talk about when she
mentioned, when Liv mentioned reaction

00:33:35.013 --> 00:33:36.843
and reactivity being triggered.

00:33:37.053 --> 00:33:37.323
Yeah.

00:33:37.323 --> 00:33:42.003
It did made me think of an exchange
we had about a year ago about Gaza.

00:33:42.093 --> 00:33:42.213
Mm-hmm.

00:33:42.603 --> 00:33:44.133
Where I feel like you got react.

00:33:44.493 --> 00:33:44.883
Oh, sure.

00:33:44.883 --> 00:33:46.563
Reactive and ended up calling me a cunt.

00:33:46.623 --> 00:33:48.183
Yes, I did.

00:33:48.303 --> 00:33:50.523
Which probably in the 25 years
we've known each other is the

00:33:50.523 --> 00:33:51.783
only time you've called me a cunt.

00:33:51.783 --> 00:33:52.203
Oh, really?

00:33:52.743 --> 00:33:53.433
I think so.

00:33:53.463 --> 00:33:54.453
Probably behind my back.

00:33:54.453 --> 00:33:55.443
You've done it more often?

00:33:55.473 --> 00:33:55.773
No.

00:33:55.773 --> 00:33:57.994
No, not, no, no, no.

00:33:58.083 --> 00:34:02.733
Um, and I think that in the last
two years, yeah, understandably,

00:34:03.333 --> 00:34:05.613
that's been the number one mm-hmm.

00:34:06.423 --> 00:34:09.213
Reactivity issue in the world.

00:34:09.543 --> 00:34:10.473
Like everyone.

00:34:10.653 --> 00:34:10.893
Yeah.

00:34:10.893 --> 00:34:13.533
It's almost like there's no
neutrals, like everyone is.

00:34:13.968 --> 00:34:14.208
Hmm.

00:34:14.268 --> 00:34:18.738
Thrown into a camp and everyone has
a reaction and, well, it's funny

00:34:18.738 --> 00:34:22.248
you should say neutral, because
there was this directive from the

00:34:22.248 --> 00:34:24.430
minister oh, I can't remember exactly.

00:34:24.430 --> 00:34:30.040
It was a few months after October
and the, might have been January, and

00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:32.675
uh, we're just going back to school
and there was this ministerial.

00:34:33.229 --> 00:34:37.549
I dunno if it was an order or, anyway,
it was this real cowardly document

00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:41.744
that was forwarded by the principal
to staff saying, uh, when this topic

00:34:41.744 --> 00:34:45.494
comes up, you know, remember that
there's a requirement to be neutral.

00:34:45.568 --> 00:34:50.638
so I went and looked all that up and I
found that, oh yeah, okay, teachers can't.

00:34:51.268 --> 00:34:56.338
Lobby in their capacity as teacher
on behalf of a political party.

00:34:57.103 --> 00:34:58.093
Okay, sure.

00:34:58.453 --> 00:34:59.203
Makes sense.

00:34:59.593 --> 00:35:01.393
And that's coming from
the state of Victoria.

00:35:01.393 --> 00:35:05.803
So when there's a state election in
particular, you know, you can't advocate

00:35:05.803 --> 00:35:08.023
for a side in your capacity as a teacher.

00:35:08.173 --> 00:35:08.443
Right?

00:35:08.502 --> 00:35:08.832
okay.

00:35:08.832 --> 00:35:09.372
Fair enough.

00:35:09.582 --> 00:35:12.972
And when it comes to federal elections,
the same thing sort of applies, but

00:35:12.972 --> 00:35:18.012
it's not coming so directly from the
State Department, uh, of education.

00:35:18.124 --> 00:35:22.774
but certainly was it Morrison or was
it Abbott or someone who was like.

00:35:22.915 --> 00:35:26.695
Basically kind of made a veil threat at
some point that we are gonna go after.

00:35:27.235 --> 00:35:31.327
Any teachers that, criticize us, they,
they, I don't think they did in the

00:35:31.327 --> 00:35:35.257
end, but like they tried to put some
chilling effect on speech, which was

00:35:35.257 --> 00:35:39.607
what this ministerial order was about,
uh, about being neutral on this topic.

00:35:39.752 --> 00:35:42.152
and I got really this really.

00:35:42.317 --> 00:35:44.693
It got to me, in a number of ways.

00:35:44.847 --> 00:35:49.857
One was that I had students that wanted
to talk about it, that were worried,

00:35:50.337 --> 00:35:55.265
that were angry, that were, were, they
were experiencing grief and feelings

00:35:55.265 --> 00:35:57.323
of horror, all of which is normal.

00:35:57.513 --> 00:36:03.390
And I found myself feeling
unsafe and unable to.

00:36:04.230 --> 00:36:10.128
Know how to respond when it came
up, and that I felt unable to just

00:36:10.128 --> 00:36:14.158
respond as a human to it, and that
I felt a need to kind of move on.

00:36:14.314 --> 00:36:19.317
and part of that was a, yeah, a fear
of to do with, you know, employment

00:36:20.067 --> 00:36:23.512
because it was not clear from
what the minister had said, or the

00:36:23.512 --> 00:36:25.162
departmental secretary or something.

00:36:25.162 --> 00:36:26.182
It was maybe not the minister.

00:36:26.568 --> 00:36:29.418
It came from a public
servant, not a politician.

00:36:29.418 --> 00:36:34.308
That was, that was one of the things
about it, that it was not clear from

00:36:34.308 --> 00:36:41.974
it what neutrality was and what the
process would be if someone was said

00:36:41.974 --> 00:36:43.684
to be in breach of that neutrality.

00:36:44.284 --> 00:36:48.644
And so I asked the powers that
the he in my school, I said, okay.

00:36:49.304 --> 00:36:51.734
Well, it'd be great to have a
working definition of what a

00:36:51.734 --> 00:36:54.104
neutral position is on this topic.

00:36:54.104 --> 00:36:55.424
If someone could tell me that.

00:36:55.691 --> 00:36:59.981
Now, this sounds like a real smart
ass thing to say and it is, but

00:37:00.371 --> 00:37:05.231
that was after I tried asking the
question 20 or 30 different ways

00:37:05.231 --> 00:37:08.531
in draft emails and I, I started.

00:37:09.146 --> 00:37:11.843
Laying out, various scenarios
and saying, what do you do here?

00:37:11.843 --> 00:37:12.503
What do you do here?

00:37:12.503 --> 00:37:13.163
What do you do here?

00:37:13.163 --> 00:37:13.883
What do you do here?

00:37:13.911 --> 00:37:16.131
then I eventually just realized,
no, it just comes down to one

00:37:16.131 --> 00:37:18.981
really difficult problem, which
no one will have an answer for.

00:37:19.341 --> 00:37:21.501
What is neutrality when it comes to this?

00:37:21.861 --> 00:37:27.354
So would it, is it neutral to allow
the facts themselves to be discussed?

00:37:27.481 --> 00:37:27.781
Right?

00:37:28.441 --> 00:37:30.931
What if the facts make one
party look worse than another?

00:37:31.107 --> 00:37:33.147
Then what does neutrality require of us?

00:37:33.147 --> 00:37:38.404
Then should we find ways to present
the facts that make it seem more even?

00:37:38.464 --> 00:37:42.164
Is that what neutrality is
or is a neutral position?

00:37:42.164 --> 00:37:46.101
In fact one that just says,
well, I don't personally know,

00:37:46.311 --> 00:37:47.656
every last thing about this.

00:37:49.116 --> 00:37:55.986
But I might take some direction from the
ICJI might take some direction from the

00:37:55.986 --> 00:38:01.896
experts, who seem to be saying that it
looks like this, it seems to walk like

00:38:01.896 --> 00:38:03.276
a duck, quack, like a duck, et cetera.

00:38:03.276 --> 00:38:03.915
It, it, yes.

00:38:03.975 --> 00:38:08.205
And then feelings of, so just on a
personal reaction, a personal reaction

00:38:08.205 --> 00:38:09.975
level, like quite aside from, you know.

00:38:10.935 --> 00:38:14.115
The whole politics of how I talk
about it, especially in a workplace,

00:38:14.895 --> 00:38:18.585
just personal feelings of, you know,
especially you walk around this part of

00:38:18.585 --> 00:38:23.518
town, there's a lot of posters and, um,
murals and things, that I've, you know,

00:38:23.722 --> 00:38:25.672
definitely taking a certain position.

00:38:26.212 --> 00:38:31.060
And there's one, heart of my
Heart and the, the grandpas

00:38:31.060 --> 00:38:32.260
holding his granddaughter.

00:38:32.685 --> 00:38:34.785
well, her lifeless body, and

00:38:38.385 --> 00:38:40.365
I've come across that one a few times and

00:38:43.275 --> 00:38:43.995
I'm grateful.

00:38:44.175 --> 00:38:47.265
I'm grateful to the person who made
that poster for at least one reason,

00:38:47.265 --> 00:38:54.375
which is it really, it got me out
of a funk one day when I saw it.

00:38:54.465 --> 00:38:55.935
I know that's a strange thing to say.

00:38:55.965 --> 00:39:00.165
I was feeling sorry for myself, and when
I saw that, it just got me out of it.

00:39:00.555 --> 00:39:05.055
I was like, no, other people are
objectively suffering much worse,

00:39:05.175 --> 00:39:06.615
and I need to remember that.

00:39:07.125 --> 00:39:07.155
Mm.

00:39:08.025 --> 00:39:09.765
And it really focused me on.

00:39:10.275 --> 00:39:14.385
Every time I think about the
children there, it focuses me

00:39:14.385 --> 00:39:18.195
on how my children need me.

00:39:19.335 --> 00:39:21.135
so that's one good thing
that's come out of it.

00:39:21.645 --> 00:39:26.536
But I, my soul will not be at rest until.

00:39:27.181 --> 00:39:30.001
Something improves dramatically.

00:39:30.066 --> 00:39:33.598
this is not like other things where,
you know, where I would get triggered

00:39:33.598 --> 00:39:40.648
by things, you know, Howard or Abbott
did, or I would get triggered by right

00:39:40.648 --> 00:39:44.865
wing discourse on the internet, or you
know, triggered by some dumb ass piece

00:39:44.865 --> 00:39:48.585
of economic analysis in the Fairfax
press where I feel like I need to like.

00:39:49.365 --> 00:39:54.255
Get on YouTube and record a take down
and exert some sort of control over this,

00:39:54.525 --> 00:39:58.365
this situation and, you know, get my
ego involved and like, try and set the

00:39:58.365 --> 00:40:02.325
record straight and bring some justice
to the world and position myself as a, as

00:40:02.325 --> 00:40:04.905
a hero and a, yeah, it's not like, yeah.

00:40:04.935 --> 00:40:09.555
Mid-teens q and a where it's
all kind of fun and yeah.

00:40:09.645 --> 00:40:12.405
Politics club for smart,
snotty little kids.

00:40:12.405 --> 00:40:12.885
Yeah.

00:40:12.915 --> 00:40:14.115
Can you get your, uh.

00:40:14.695 --> 00:40:17.125
Tweet written out on, can
you get your zinger in there?

00:40:17.125 --> 00:40:17.667
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:17.695 --> 00:40:18.295
That's right.

00:40:18.325 --> 00:40:18.595
Yeah.

00:40:18.595 --> 00:40:23.035
Can I, can you get your tweets shown on
the screen of q and a in 2012 or whatever?

00:40:23.035 --> 00:40:23.275
Fuck it was.

00:40:23.275 --> 00:40:23.545
Totally.

00:40:24.445 --> 00:40:29.554
Can I, can I be the one with With
the most ringing, poetic critique of

00:40:29.554 --> 00:40:30.934
the liberal party, like, you know.

00:40:30.934 --> 00:40:33.244
Yeah, no, no, it's not like that.

00:40:33.244 --> 00:40:34.774
It's life and death and it's, yeah.

00:40:34.924 --> 00:40:35.974
You know, the Middle East.

00:40:35.974 --> 00:40:37.444
Is anyone neutral in the Middle East?

00:40:37.444 --> 00:40:41.254
I don't like, uh, well,
that's, well, that's right.

00:40:41.494 --> 00:40:43.954
Like, can anyone be
neutral over this issue?

00:40:43.954 --> 00:40:48.814
I, well, I'm not proposing that we talk
about it in depth, Sam, I'm just saying.

00:40:49.669 --> 00:40:52.729
I was like, well, I'm just glad
I got that off my chest anyway.

00:40:53.074 --> 00:40:53.364
Yeah.

00:40:53.369 --> 00:40:53.809
Yeah.

00:40:53.869 --> 00:40:54.979
No, very well said.

00:40:54.979 --> 00:40:58.069
And I, I don't want to talk
about it in depth, but it mm-hmm.

00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:04.329
It, it made me realize that sometimes it's
better just to shut the fuck up, you know?

00:41:04.389 --> 00:41:04.629
Yeah.

00:41:04.629 --> 00:41:08.619
Because like, I, I, I don't
want to get into what about is.

00:41:09.264 --> 00:41:12.774
I don't wanna say, or how far in
back in history do you want to go?

00:41:13.194 --> 00:41:17.904
What I can say with confidence is I'm
not a subject matter e expert on this.

00:41:17.934 --> 00:41:18.264
Mm.

00:41:18.407 --> 00:41:21.287
well, I don't think you
need to be I'm No, no.

00:41:21.287 --> 00:41:27.227
But, but, but I, I, for the same
reasons that I can't stare into

00:41:27.227 --> 00:41:31.277
the void of Ukraine, I can't
stare into the void of Gaza.

00:41:31.457 --> 00:41:31.547
Mm-hmm.

00:41:32.312 --> 00:41:37.022
And then still function
and be there for Yeah.

00:41:37.022 --> 00:41:41.642
My kids who are living a much more
privileged life in a, in much more safety.

00:41:42.182 --> 00:41:44.972
I can't sort of do both.

00:41:44.972 --> 00:41:48.452
I can't stare into the
fucking void of war.

00:41:48.572 --> 00:41:48.902
Yeah.

00:41:48.932 --> 00:41:52.922
And then still, and I do, maybe
it sounds like a cop out, but I

00:41:52.922 --> 00:41:56.282
do think this bipolar thing that's
rattling around in my brain.

00:41:56.312 --> 00:41:56.492
Yeah.

00:41:57.077 --> 00:41:59.237
Doesn't make it super easy.

00:41:59.362 --> 00:41:59.957
No, no, no.

00:42:00.017 --> 00:42:04.127
Like, I think for that reason, I
couldn't actually be a, mm-hmm.

00:42:04.367 --> 00:42:06.167
Head of state or whatever, you know?

00:42:06.167 --> 00:42:09.767
I couldn't actually have agency
in any of this stuff because I

00:42:10.187 --> 00:42:12.167
am unstable inherently, you know?

00:42:12.557 --> 00:42:16.622
Well, there were, I think I've,
I vaguely recall coming across.

00:42:16.954 --> 00:42:20.164
That there were people with
bipolar in, in high positions.

00:42:20.164 --> 00:42:20.764
In Churchill.

00:42:20.974 --> 00:42:21.274
Yeah.

00:42:21.274 --> 00:42:21.784
In, yeah.

00:42:21.784 --> 00:42:22.234
Right.

00:42:22.249 --> 00:42:22.539
Okay.

00:42:22.569 --> 00:42:22.859
Yeah.

00:42:22.864 --> 00:42:23.374
Okay.

00:42:23.374 --> 00:42:26.134
I, that's why Churchill would come
in during the middle of World War II

00:42:26.164 --> 00:42:29.914
and have a long Bath and not start
his day till 3:00 PM and Right.

00:42:29.914 --> 00:42:31.939
He had to get himself quiet,
drink a lot of gin, and Yeah.

00:42:32.014 --> 00:42:32.284
Yeah.

00:42:32.284 --> 00:42:33.394
He was just fucked in the morning.

00:42:33.394 --> 00:42:34.294
I'm fucked in the mornings too.

00:42:34.294 --> 00:42:35.344
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:35.614 --> 00:42:36.214
I can imagine.

00:42:36.373 --> 00:42:36.883
anyway.

00:42:36.973 --> 00:42:37.423
Well, yeah.

00:42:37.423 --> 00:42:40.213
Well, but what I was, what
I was gonna say is that the.

00:42:40.813 --> 00:42:44.653
I think what I, yeah, what I was
gonna say is I think that one gets to

00:42:44.653 --> 00:42:49.183
you in a way that you can't just be
emotionally dispassionate about No.

00:42:49.183 --> 00:42:49.184
No.

00:42:49.513 --> 00:42:54.073
So you, you're not, it's not possible
for you to not react, you know?

00:42:54.103 --> 00:42:54.913
No, that's right.

00:42:54.943 --> 00:42:56.143
Like to whatever.

00:42:56.143 --> 00:42:57.433
To the latest horror.

00:42:57.493 --> 00:42:57.793
Yeah.

00:42:57.883 --> 00:42:58.753
Or to me.

00:42:58.783 --> 00:42:58.963
Yeah.

00:42:59.443 --> 00:43:03.343
Maybe making some flippant comments
or some provocative comments.

00:43:03.883 --> 00:43:05.233
Whatever I was saying at the time.

00:43:05.233 --> 00:43:07.288
No, it was more just that
you were quoting certain.

00:43:08.083 --> 00:43:08.593
People.

00:43:08.773 --> 00:43:14.164
Douglas Murray, for example, and I was
just like, Douglas Murray on, on Gaza.

00:43:14.224 --> 00:43:15.094
Not useful.

00:43:15.364 --> 00:43:16.714
Douglas Murray on Ukraine.

00:43:16.774 --> 00:43:17.734
Very useful.

00:43:17.764 --> 00:43:19.474
It's, it's weird.

00:43:19.894 --> 00:43:22.804
Yeah, that guy, like, on that
one, I mean, it's not weird.

00:43:22.804 --> 00:43:26.304
I, I can't explain it, but, So there's
a protect, there's a self-protection

00:43:26.304 --> 00:43:29.454
thing also that comes in, like when you
were talking before about not being a

00:43:29.454 --> 00:43:34.275
subject matter expert, but like, it made
me think of, um, the way certain people

00:43:34.275 --> 00:43:37.575
reacted to Sandy Hook, for example.

00:43:37.665 --> 00:43:37.815
Mm-hmm.

00:43:38.445 --> 00:43:46.155
That there is this disbelief, which
is I think a very sane response.

00:43:46.635 --> 00:43:46.875
Right?

00:43:46.875 --> 00:43:51.225
Who would want to believe
that someone did this?

00:43:51.600 --> 00:43:51.660
Yeah.

00:43:52.230 --> 00:43:59.820
And that had happened and some of Alex
Jones' listeners were all too ready for

00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:04.186
ideological reasons to grasp at some way.

00:44:04.186 --> 00:44:06.436
To deny or yeah, to change the narrative.

00:44:06.436 --> 00:44:06.736
Right.

00:44:07.036 --> 00:44:10.659
And this is something I've studied in
depth, because there is something I

00:44:10.659 --> 00:44:12.309
find very fascinating about denial.

00:44:12.339 --> 00:44:14.169
'cause I've done a lot
of it myself, right?

00:44:14.499 --> 00:44:17.019
And so it is interesting
to look at it in others.

00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:20.289
With a different ideological
position to your own, to, to sort

00:44:20.289 --> 00:44:23.499
of perhaps try to understand your
own blind spots a bit better.

00:44:23.603 --> 00:44:28.561
but what I eventually learned about
some of the most staunch Sandy Hook

00:44:28.561 --> 00:44:33.666
Denialists was there was, there was an
emotional problem at the bottom of it.

00:44:33.966 --> 00:44:37.206
That it actually wasn't so much
coming from a commitment to like.

00:44:37.655 --> 00:44:43.505
Gun anarchy that some of them seem to
have like sort of absolute right to have

00:44:43.595 --> 00:44:46.115
any amount of guns of any description.

00:44:46.295 --> 00:44:49.535
It wasn't, I don't think that
was really what was driving it.

00:44:49.720 --> 00:44:54.478
There were two more simple fears
the, the most obvious one being.

00:44:55.063 --> 00:45:00.463
The fear that it actually happened, the
fear that the world could be so horrible

00:45:01.663 --> 00:45:07.959
and that such a random thing could happen
and that not much could be done about it.

00:45:08.289 --> 00:45:09.249
That's a deep fear.

00:45:09.489 --> 00:45:11.859
Now, as it turns out, an
awful lot can be done.

00:45:12.879 --> 00:45:13.899
Separate topic though.

00:45:14.289 --> 00:45:19.303
But the other fear that was driving it was
not so much about disarmament, but that.

00:45:19.571 --> 00:45:24.971
Someone's trying to control my
thoughts through this event,

00:45:25.061 --> 00:45:26.231
through this fake event.

00:45:26.511 --> 00:45:29.361
So those were kind of the
two main fears they had.

00:45:29.781 --> 00:45:33.963
But there was this one woman who
eventually went so far off the rails

00:45:33.963 --> 00:45:37.923
with this thing that she was, you know,
stalking some of the family members

00:45:37.923 --> 00:45:42.843
and was, you know, trying to reveal
the truth and like, you know, going

00:45:42.843 --> 00:45:44.073
through their mail and just like.

00:45:44.643 --> 00:45:48.753
Like really off the rails and
blogging and you know, just making

00:45:48.753 --> 00:45:51.333
a complete asshole of herself.

00:45:51.633 --> 00:45:54.123
And, uh, some men as well, obviously.

00:45:55.023 --> 00:45:58.173
But there was a curious thing that
happened in her case where she clearly,

00:45:58.173 --> 00:46:00.843
she was very, extremely triggered by
this whole thing and was extremely

00:46:00.843 --> 00:46:04.683
triggered by Alex Jones' coverage
of it, which is designed to do what

00:46:04.683 --> 00:46:08.193
you were saying about the Guardian
or the economist freak you out.

00:46:08.523 --> 00:46:11.678
And then sort of provide some sort
of reassurance based around Yeah.

00:46:11.678 --> 00:46:13.038
And then you go, ah, thank you.

00:46:13.443 --> 00:46:17.283
But you have to put all your trust
and faith and money in in me, and

00:46:17.283 --> 00:46:18.963
then you'll continue to feel safe.

00:46:19.053 --> 00:46:22.263
But I'll continue to freak you
out and make you feel helpless.

00:46:22.263 --> 00:46:26.493
And, but people, it'll be this abusive
relationship, but people read The Guardian

00:46:26.493 --> 00:46:28.233
because they want to feel something.

00:46:29.343 --> 00:46:31.023
Oh, you reckon they're
going there for a trigger?

00:46:31.023 --> 00:46:32.283
Like they're numb for a jolt.

00:46:32.883 --> 00:46:33.453
They're numb.

00:46:33.453 --> 00:46:33.456
People are numb.

00:46:33.483 --> 00:46:34.293
Like, yeah.

00:46:34.353 --> 00:46:35.553
Their lives aren't so bad.

00:46:35.958 --> 00:46:40.998
So that, so that apocalyptic guardian
alert, almost people love it.

00:46:40.998 --> 00:46:43.248
I almost felt something
sitting in the office.

00:46:43.278 --> 00:46:43.488
Yeah.

00:46:43.518 --> 00:46:44.778
10 30 in the morning.

00:46:44.868 --> 00:46:45.648
Oh, I see that.

00:46:45.678 --> 00:46:46.818
Oh, existential dread.

00:46:46.818 --> 00:46:46.848
Okay.

00:46:46.848 --> 00:46:49.098
So I won't have to do that
project this afternoon.

00:46:49.158 --> 00:46:49.758
Oh man.

00:46:49.758 --> 00:46:52.008
Wouldn't it be great if, yeah.

00:46:52.833 --> 00:46:53.193
Yeah.

00:46:53.193 --> 00:46:54.308
That everything just got called off.

00:46:54.308 --> 00:46:54.813
That's the whole stick.

00:46:54.813 --> 00:47:01.503
That's the Yeah, it's, it's, but sorry
for me, I'm, no, I'm not, I'm not numb.

00:47:02.103 --> 00:47:02.883
No, no.

00:47:03.063 --> 00:47:03.843
And neither are you.

00:47:03.843 --> 00:47:10.173
And I think, I think around
this topic, you know, you fair

00:47:10.173 --> 00:47:12.123
enough to react and be angry.

00:47:12.183 --> 00:47:12.453
Yeah.

00:47:12.693 --> 00:47:14.013
Like, and, and fair enough.

00:47:14.013 --> 00:47:17.013
If you want to react and be
angry every day, and if you've

00:47:17.013 --> 00:47:18.963
got the emotional capacity to.

00:47:19.683 --> 00:47:24.663
Stare into it and engage with it and read
Douglas Murray and read fucking I know.

00:47:24.663 --> 00:47:27.033
Well, there's also whoever
else you want to read.

00:47:27.063 --> 00:47:30.483
Well, there's also just I, but I,
I won't be, fundamentally, there's

00:47:30.483 --> 00:47:32.793
a guilt that my children are safe.

00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.214
But your kids weren't
born in the Middle East.

00:47:35.244 --> 00:47:36.954
Ah, but that's, that's not good enough.

00:47:36.954 --> 00:47:41.994
Like, but so historically they were always
more, much more likely to be safe, right?

00:47:42.084 --> 00:47:42.624
Yes.

00:47:42.624 --> 00:47:44.364
Than to be born in that part of the world.

00:47:44.394 --> 00:47:44.844
Yes.

00:47:45.054 --> 00:47:47.454
I guess that's how I think
about the thing in my head.

00:47:47.544 --> 00:47:47.994
Sure.

00:47:48.024 --> 00:47:48.684
It's like.

00:47:49.839 --> 00:47:50.289
You know.

00:47:50.949 --> 00:47:54.999
No, but, but, but the, I know, I
understand that, that that would apply

00:47:54.999 --> 00:47:56.769
more to like, same as in Eastern Europe.

00:47:56.829 --> 00:47:57.129
Sure.

00:47:57.279 --> 00:48:01.629
You wouldn't necessarily pick Eastern
Europe as the safest place to be born.

00:48:01.659 --> 00:48:01.989
No.

00:48:02.229 --> 00:48:03.459
And you wouldn't pick the Middle East.

00:48:03.459 --> 00:48:08.109
So, so in a way the, it's reassuring to
me as a catastrophes, because the, yeah.

00:48:08.169 --> 00:48:08.199
Okay.

00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:10.869
The places where the bad things
are happening are the most

00:48:10.869 --> 00:48:12.339
unstable and historically.

00:48:13.344 --> 00:48:14.484
Violent places.

00:48:14.484 --> 00:48:15.474
Yeah, I understand.

00:48:15.474 --> 00:48:19.974
But, but the, there are very,
very direct causes that have to

00:48:19.974 --> 00:48:23.429
do with direct choices made by.

00:48:24.099 --> 00:48:28.689
You know, countries that you
and I are notionally citizens

00:48:28.689 --> 00:48:30.549
of or in an alliance with.

00:48:30.549 --> 00:48:34.149
So it is, it is a matter of some
importance to us, even if we don't have

00:48:34.149 --> 00:48:36.339
a particular emotional attachment or not.

00:48:36.669 --> 00:48:37.059
Oh yeah.

00:48:37.059 --> 00:48:39.219
But no, you were talking
about kids safety though.

00:48:39.309 --> 00:48:40.209
Yeah, exactly.

00:48:40.209 --> 00:48:42.429
I'm talking about just
in terms of kids' safety.

00:48:42.819 --> 00:48:44.499
Oh, well, no, yeah, no, I understand.

00:48:44.529 --> 00:48:44.859
And.

00:48:45.309 --> 00:48:51.220
But again, that longer term, if this sort
of thing is, is tolerated to any extent,

00:48:51.220 --> 00:48:53.440
it, it actually makes everyone less safe.

00:48:53.530 --> 00:48:55.630
Like, I mean, that's one
of the clear conclusions.

00:48:55.738 --> 00:49:01.168
but when it, so back to the Sandy Hook
woman for a minute that she faced,

00:49:01.168 --> 00:49:09.697
she ended up facing some facts that
almost broke her, like once she.

00:49:10.012 --> 00:49:14.242
Certain things she'd been clinging
to that No, that proved that.

00:49:14.242 --> 00:49:14.662
Proved that.

00:49:14.662 --> 00:49:15.142
Proved that.

00:49:15.142 --> 00:49:15.682
I'm not wrong.

00:49:16.031 --> 00:49:18.611
She had a couple of things basically.

00:49:19.346 --> 00:49:22.436
Unavoidably disprove, uh, yeah.

00:49:22.436 --> 00:49:25.856
Her commitment to the, to the denial.

00:49:26.165 --> 00:49:29.735
And she, but are you putting me in
the category of Sandy Hook woman?

00:49:29.735 --> 00:49:30.650
No, no, no, no, no.

00:49:30.650 --> 00:49:33.755
Because I don't think I've ever
denied the horrors of No Gaza.

00:49:33.785 --> 00:49:34.296
No, no, no.

00:49:34.301 --> 00:49:39.065
And you've not been going outta your way
to, you know, uh, be a nuisance over it.

00:49:39.515 --> 00:49:41.495
But no, I'm not putting
you in that category.

00:49:41.765 --> 00:49:44.987
No, but she, I was more
just fascinated by.

00:49:45.205 --> 00:49:51.049
On a very personal basis, fascinated
by the story of a person being so

00:49:51.049 --> 00:49:55.772
resolutely committed to a story and
finding things that justifies it.

00:49:55.772 --> 00:49:59.162
And yes, this is ringing for me
because, you know, and we've all done

00:49:59.162 --> 00:50:01.180
this and eventually it coming apart.

00:50:01.446 --> 00:50:04.836
And what people are normally able
to do in that circumstance is.

00:50:05.106 --> 00:50:08.976
Kind of move on and forget that
they ever had the other position.

00:50:09.096 --> 00:50:09.186
Right.

00:50:09.186 --> 00:50:09.276
Yeah.

00:50:09.276 --> 00:50:11.856
We change our minds and then
we sort of the scar heels over.

00:50:11.856 --> 00:50:11.946
Yeah.

00:50:12.936 --> 00:50:15.666
Uh, in her case though, she
was on the record, right.

00:50:15.666 --> 00:50:17.796
And it was very difficult
for her to move on.

00:50:17.796 --> 00:50:19.566
I mean, Pauline Hansen did it though.

00:50:19.566 --> 00:50:22.386
Someone said, Hey, didn't you used
to hate Asians instead of Muslims?

00:50:22.386 --> 00:50:23.526
And she's like, no, I never hated.

00:50:24.781 --> 00:50:26.551
Oh, Trump does it every day.

00:50:26.551 --> 00:50:27.481
It's just gone.

00:50:27.541 --> 00:50:28.621
Trump does it every day.

00:50:28.651 --> 00:50:28.861
Yeah.

00:50:28.861 --> 00:50:29.761
Anything that I like.

00:50:29.881 --> 00:50:30.121
Yeah.

00:50:30.181 --> 00:50:33.781
I'll, uh, wasn't he gonna have the Ukraine
War sorted before he was inaugurated?

00:50:33.811 --> 00:50:34.651
Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:34.651 --> 00:50:35.581
Weren't you gonna do that?

00:50:35.581 --> 00:50:35.821
Yeah.

00:50:35.821 --> 00:50:36.631
No, I never said that.

00:50:36.661 --> 00:50:38.731
No, I never said that once.

00:50:38.731 --> 00:50:41.251
The most powerful person, this guy
you were digging up the other day.

00:50:41.251 --> 00:50:41.851
What about him?

00:50:41.851 --> 00:50:42.601
I don't even know him.

00:50:42.661 --> 00:50:43.051
Yeah.

00:50:43.051 --> 00:50:43.141
Yeah.

00:50:43.561 --> 00:50:45.691
And once the most powerful,
powerful person in the world is

00:50:45.691 --> 00:50:47.341
just openly doing that, yeah.

00:50:47.551 --> 00:50:50.161
It gives us all permission
just to be complete.

00:50:50.186 --> 00:50:51.836
Just to disavow everything.

00:50:51.836 --> 00:50:54.296
Yeah, but actually it
does the opposite, Sam.

00:50:54.296 --> 00:50:57.236
It creates a responsibility
to live with more integrity.

00:50:57.356 --> 00:50:58.346
I think it does.

00:50:58.346 --> 00:51:01.436
It invites us to ask to
just not be like that.

00:51:01.436 --> 00:51:02.456
You don't like Donald Trump?

00:51:02.486 --> 00:51:02.576
Yes.

00:51:02.576 --> 00:51:02.786
Okay.

00:51:02.786 --> 00:51:03.836
Well, don't be like him.

00:51:03.836 --> 00:51:04.646
We, and be honest.

00:51:04.766 --> 00:51:05.606
Speak the truth.

00:51:05.666 --> 00:51:10.376
And even if we like his politics, we have
to admit this is a shameful way to act.

00:51:10.646 --> 00:51:14.066
And I would hate to actually.

00:51:14.121 --> 00:51:16.131
I conduct myself in that way.

00:51:16.281 --> 00:51:19.671
I would feel a lot of shame
even, even if I thought he was

00:51:19.671 --> 00:51:20.965
doing good things and yeah.

00:51:20.965 --> 00:51:24.295
And so for this poor old, this, I will
say I feel a lot of pity for this Sandy

00:51:24.295 --> 00:51:27.304
Hook woman that she, was faced with.

00:51:28.204 --> 00:51:32.014
If she admitted to herself what
was going on, she would feel

00:51:32.014 --> 00:51:33.604
like an unforgivable monster.

00:51:33.664 --> 00:51:34.054
Yeah.

00:51:34.114 --> 00:51:37.294
And I think there was
something in that for me that.

00:51:37.472 --> 00:51:41.132
in our efforts to create emotional
safety for ourselves, we can go too

00:51:41.132 --> 00:51:45.992
far out of our way and then we can end
up with a sort of a moral or emotional

00:51:45.992 --> 00:51:47.642
debt that has to be paid later.

00:51:47.882 --> 00:51:53.582
Oh, so you're saying that that's where
I ended up by saying, oh look, you

00:51:53.582 --> 00:51:58.412
know, there was a massive terrorist
attack on Israel and that maybe I was

00:51:58.832 --> 00:52:00.542
kicked off this round of violence.

00:52:00.542 --> 00:52:02.222
And what I get frustrated is.

00:52:03.167 --> 00:52:07.547
That, that what I see is the left
not acknowledging that that big

00:52:07.547 --> 00:52:11.807
terrorist attack happened before
getting onto the absolute valid.

00:52:11.812 --> 00:52:15.797
See, I see, I see absolutely valid
criticisms of the absolute horrors

00:52:15.797 --> 00:52:17.327
that Israel is doing in Palestine.

00:52:17.327 --> 00:52:21.197
But I was like, but what about did
I not, it was, honestly, that was

00:52:21.197 --> 00:52:24.797
my reaction was like, did I not
see this massive terrorist attack?

00:52:24.797 --> 00:52:28.637
Like did they, were they
flying into a rave with a Joe?

00:52:28.637 --> 00:52:31.607
You know what, you, you've actually
made a really good point here, so.

00:52:31.754 --> 00:52:34.214
This was something, this reminded me
of something I wanted to say before.

00:52:34.664 --> 00:52:38.534
So I'm not sure what got me onto her
other than just this desire to create

00:52:38.534 --> 00:52:43.964
emotional safety, this sane desire
to, yeah, deny something horrible.

00:52:44.324 --> 00:52:47.114
Uh, which is certainly something that's
happened in my life with some often just

00:52:47.114 --> 00:52:51.554
very personal things like deny certain
realities, like, oh, mom's gonna die.

00:52:51.554 --> 00:52:55.214
Or, you know, deny, you know, that, that.

00:52:55.244 --> 00:52:58.634
Or when the, when the kids are sick,
I might put my head in the sand and

00:52:58.634 --> 00:53:02.384
go, oh, they'll be fine when, you
know, um, you know, shit like that.

00:53:02.461 --> 00:53:05.065
or I might ignore a credit card
bill or whatever, you know?

00:53:05.065 --> 00:53:05.275
Sure.

00:53:05.275 --> 00:53:06.265
Like, we all do this.

00:53:06.441 --> 00:53:09.629
And so there's something about
that that I find fascinating and

00:53:09.629 --> 00:53:12.149
I, but, but it was also, yes.

00:53:12.179 --> 00:53:14.849
I guess subconsciously I was
thinking about your response to

00:53:14.849 --> 00:53:16.619
it, but I wanna say this, that.

00:53:17.429 --> 00:53:22.499
I've studied Alex Jones and his methods
such as they are to try and understand

00:53:22.499 --> 00:53:26.669
what's going on there and with his
people and his role in the ecosystem.

00:53:26.669 --> 00:53:30.059
And I'm interested in conspiracies and
fantasies and nightmares and all of that.

00:53:30.569 --> 00:53:36.234
But I think that by, we should
rightly demonize Alex Jones, not

00:53:36.234 --> 00:53:38.334
just as a bad person, but like.

00:53:38.995 --> 00:53:42.265
On his own terms, but as someone who's
actually injuring his own audience, right?

00:53:42.265 --> 00:53:50.420
And all of that's true, but it might
conceal or mitigate the same abusive

00:53:50.420 --> 00:53:55.370
practices happening by so-called
legitimate respectable outlets who.

00:53:56.015 --> 00:54:01.385
Have basically done a sandy
hook on Gaza to a degree.

00:54:01.625 --> 00:54:02.855
Look over here.

00:54:03.695 --> 00:54:08.495
That's not happening because, yeah, so
if you wanted, if a person wanted to

00:54:08.495 --> 00:54:13.523
avail themselves of a framing where there
was a moral equivalence, guess what?

00:54:13.771 --> 00:54:17.251
There's two years of media coverage
encouraging you to do just that.

00:54:17.641 --> 00:54:18.541
It's all there.

00:54:18.946 --> 00:54:22.336
And it's only recently that the dam
has started to show some cracks.

00:54:22.366 --> 00:54:24.256
Ah, well, an elbow saying that.

00:54:24.256 --> 00:54:25.516
Oh, it's, it's not acceptable.

00:54:25.516 --> 00:54:26.080
I think Yeah.

00:54:26.080 --> 00:54:29.440
There's a body count of a
thousand on one side to start off.

00:54:29.950 --> 00:54:31.270
Just bear with me.

00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:31.600
Right.

00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:35.920
And then the response to that gets
to a body count of a thousand.

00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:36.460
Right.

00:54:36.520 --> 00:54:38.500
That might be model moral equivalence.

00:54:38.500 --> 00:54:38.560
Yeah.

00:54:38.860 --> 00:54:41.920
But say you're a little bit racist
and you decide that one group is

00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:45.910
not as worth, their lives aren't
worthy as worthy as the other group.

00:54:45.910 --> 00:54:46.000
Mm-hmm.

00:54:46.240 --> 00:54:46.330
Yep.

00:54:46.330 --> 00:54:49.300
So say they killed 10,000
people in response to losing

00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:50.230
a thousand of their own.

00:54:50.290 --> 00:54:50.410
Yeah.

00:54:50.575 --> 00:54:56.035
N now even for a racist, you might be
like, oh, okay, we're getting a little

00:54:56.035 --> 00:54:58.345
bit beyond moral equivalence now.

00:54:58.375 --> 00:54:58.585
Yeah.

00:54:58.885 --> 00:55:04.375
So in something like, wherever that line
is Gaza, you're up to like 60,000 after

00:55:04.525 --> 00:55:06.325
800 were killed or something, right?

00:55:06.325 --> 00:55:06.326
Yeah.

00:55:06.415 --> 00:55:06.655
Yeah.

00:55:06.715 --> 00:55:08.695
So I'm not claiming a moral equivalent.

00:55:08.695 --> 00:55:10.855
You ca there, there, there
might have been a point.

00:55:10.915 --> 00:55:14.905
And I think that certainly
the right wing media.

00:55:15.155 --> 00:55:18.438
Want to keep it as a, a moral equivalence.

00:55:18.438 --> 00:55:21.228
But it wasn't in my
mind, well, my, no, no.

00:55:21.228 --> 00:55:25.488
And maybe that position's evolved since
we had our argument over a group chat.

00:55:25.923 --> 00:55:27.228
I, I, I, I don't know.

00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:32.100
well, my, my issue is I was just getting
very frustrated because my position,

00:55:32.250 --> 00:55:35.790
mm, better or worse, is that whole
part of the world is fucking crazy.

00:55:35.790 --> 00:55:35.850
Yeah.

00:55:36.030 --> 00:55:37.470
They're crazy on both sides.

00:55:37.470 --> 00:55:38.700
But that's, I don't support other sides.

00:55:38.700 --> 00:55:40.080
I don't support nationalism.

00:55:40.080 --> 00:55:40.230
No.

00:55:40.230 --> 00:55:41.490
But that I don't support.

00:55:41.517 --> 00:55:44.650
of course I don't support
a, a terrorist organization.

00:55:44.950 --> 00:55:46.630
I don't support a right wing government.

00:55:46.630 --> 00:55:47.740
I don't support anyone.

00:55:47.740 --> 00:55:52.090
But the problem, no, the yes, that,
that's an argument that might apply

00:55:52.090 --> 00:55:55.390
in a lot of cases, but in this
one, it obscures certain basic

00:55:55.390 --> 00:55:57.220
facts and it's designed to do that.

00:55:57.220 --> 00:55:59.740
And I'm not saying you've chosen
it for those reasons, but it's been

00:55:59.740 --> 00:56:01.630
presented to you for those reasons.

00:56:01.690 --> 00:56:04.600
And I don't just critique the right
wing media when it comes to this.

00:56:05.110 --> 00:56:09.040
I think that we were very much let down
by the so-called liberal media as well,

00:56:09.040 --> 00:56:14.288
and the corporate media in general,
who have had a resolute determination

00:56:14.738 --> 00:56:19.375
to misunderstand the basic facts of
colonialism, et cetera, going on.

00:56:19.375 --> 00:56:23.035
Because to do that wouldn't
just threaten a particular.

00:56:23.710 --> 00:56:30.280
Pillar of policy, it would actually
invite further questions about

00:56:30.520 --> 00:56:35.020
other places, and it opens up
a whole can of worms that just.

00:56:35.680 --> 00:56:38.800
A whole section of the media,
best majority of it were not

00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:40.480
willing to, to open that.

00:56:41.050 --> 00:56:44.140
They weren't willing to be the
person with their name to the

00:56:44.140 --> 00:56:46.180
problem of opening that can of worms.

00:56:46.210 --> 00:56:50.410
And then the part, but the part I
reacted to in Melbourne was that for

00:56:50.410 --> 00:56:54.160
a little while I was dating someone
who was organizing the rallies.

00:56:54.490 --> 00:56:54.790
Right.

00:56:54.820 --> 00:56:56.380
Who was in the Socialist party.

00:56:56.410 --> 00:56:56.680
Wow.

00:56:56.710 --> 00:56:56.770
Okay.

00:56:56.770 --> 00:56:59.920
And I reacted to the people
I find the most annoying.

00:57:00.100 --> 00:57:00.490
Sure.

00:57:00.730 --> 00:57:02.530
Were incredibly pro Gaza.

00:57:02.905 --> 00:57:03.565
So, yeah.

00:57:03.595 --> 00:57:04.945
I'm sorry.

00:57:04.945 --> 00:57:07.765
Incredibly pro humus and all of that.

00:57:07.795 --> 00:57:08.125
Right.

00:57:08.275 --> 00:57:12.145
So I'm reacting in Melbourne to
my own cultural environment Yes.

00:57:12.145 --> 00:57:15.505
Of like, who pisses me off,
who annoys me, you know?

00:57:15.510 --> 00:57:16.910
Yeah, no, I understand that.

00:57:16.910 --> 00:57:20.155
And that's where I'm
reacting, uh, as well.

00:57:20.155 --> 00:57:21.115
But it's stupid.

00:57:21.175 --> 00:57:22.105
It's a stupid reaction.

00:57:22.105 --> 00:57:23.455
I, I, again, I, I.

00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:26.290
I don't get any closer to
really understanding it.

00:57:26.380 --> 00:57:26.470
Mm-hmm.

00:57:26.710 --> 00:57:31.720
Um, to some, to the people on the ground,
it's, it's insulting to even Yeah.

00:57:31.810 --> 00:57:34.090
React to, to the annoyance of, yeah.

00:57:34.090 --> 00:57:38.380
To base our judgment of, of
events elsewhere on how locals

00:57:38.380 --> 00:57:39.400
around us are responding.

00:57:39.400 --> 00:57:39.460
Yeah.

00:57:39.460 --> 00:57:42.910
'cause someone puts on a headscarf and
goes and gets a coffee in Northgate.

00:57:43.180 --> 00:57:44.230
That annoys me.

00:57:44.260 --> 00:57:44.770
Sure.

00:57:44.860 --> 00:57:45.310
Right.

00:57:45.310 --> 00:57:49.330
But it's, it's so silly compared
to what's actually happening.

00:57:49.540 --> 00:57:52.090
Well, and, and yeah, and, and
potentially there are people

00:57:52.090 --> 00:57:53.230
suffering who are innocent.

00:57:53.230 --> 00:57:56.020
People who appreciate that person
wearing their fucking heads scuffed

00:57:56.020 --> 00:57:56.980
to get a coffee of Northgate.

00:57:57.160 --> 00:57:58.330
I don't fucking know either way.

00:57:58.330 --> 00:57:59.530
I find it annoying either way.

00:57:59.530 --> 00:58:01.660
It's an ancient impulse
to shoot the messenger.

00:58:01.720 --> 00:58:02.800
And Yeah.

00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:04.630
And I've certainly been guilty of it.

00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:09.490
And, and this gets me to, you know,
something that I haven't talked about in

00:58:09.490 --> 00:58:12.070
relation to this topic that, for example.

00:58:13.315 --> 00:58:14.185
20.

00:58:15.205 --> 00:58:21.535
So kind of like the earliest story I can
think of here about reactivity in me.

00:58:21.925 --> 00:58:25.045
'cause we haven't, I haven't gone
enough into personal examples.

00:58:25.585 --> 00:58:28.825
I'm sitting there, it's maybe 2001.

00:58:28.825 --> 00:58:33.968
I'm gonna see a psychologist at Melbourne
Uni Counseling service, And in the waiting

00:58:33.968 --> 00:58:36.878
room there's some magazines and there's.

00:58:37.085 --> 00:58:39.035
skinny people on the cover.

00:58:39.185 --> 00:58:39.545
Right.

00:58:40.835 --> 00:58:45.545
And at the time I had a bit of an eating
disorder and I've had on and off and

00:58:46.595 --> 00:58:52.085
I was in a delicate state and I was
feeling triggered by these covers.

00:58:52.085 --> 00:58:53.285
I didn't have that language.

00:58:53.285 --> 00:58:53.645
Right.

00:58:53.778 --> 00:58:54.637
I was ahead of the curve.

00:58:55.087 --> 00:58:56.347
I was triggered before it was cool.

00:58:56.527 --> 00:58:58.237
Uh, no.

00:58:58.297 --> 00:59:00.433
What I'm saying is I was
sitting there thinking.

00:59:00.943 --> 00:59:02.563
I really wish these
magazines weren't here.

00:59:02.563 --> 00:59:03.613
This is upsetting me.

00:59:03.801 --> 00:59:09.954
and it's not wrong for me to want like a
more diverse concept of beauty out there.

00:59:10.554 --> 00:59:16.014
'cause I felt like the masculine
beauty ideal didn't fit me.

00:59:16.764 --> 00:59:19.884
I don't know if that was, if that was
true or not, but I just felt like it,

00:59:20.274 --> 00:59:25.609
you know, didn't fit me but this was
like girls, not boys, on these magazines,

00:59:25.609 --> 00:59:27.349
so like, Hey, I shouldn't be bothered.

00:59:27.349 --> 00:59:27.679
Right?

00:59:27.769 --> 00:59:34.473
But no, the sort of uneven culture of
beauty, the way women are shown also

00:59:34.473 --> 00:59:39.003
affects, the way I think about myself is,
was a realization that I've had since.

00:59:39.193 --> 00:59:42.823
And so I said to the
counselor, oh, you know, maybe.

00:59:43.543 --> 00:59:46.153
I don't know, maybe those magazines,
you know, maybe there should be

00:59:46.153 --> 00:59:47.803
different magazines in the waiting room.

00:59:47.803 --> 00:59:49.222
You know, might, maybe you shouldn't.

00:59:49.312 --> 00:59:51.172
There should be some more
thought about the people that are

00:59:51.172 --> 00:59:52.882
there waiting to see somebody.

00:59:52.882 --> 00:59:56.583
And so you might say that there's
a very, very early example of, I.

00:59:56.753 --> 00:59:59.963
Trigger warning culture coming from me
and me wanting to be a bit censorious.

01:00:00.023 --> 01:00:01.373
Oh, psychologist would've loved that.

01:00:01.433 --> 01:00:02.723
Yeah, I think she did find it.

01:00:02.723 --> 01:00:02.783
Yeah.

01:00:03.323 --> 01:00:04.043
Oh, interesting.

01:00:04.073 --> 01:00:04.163
Yeah.

01:00:04.163 --> 01:00:06.353
So the magazine, Sam, yeah.

01:00:06.353 --> 01:00:08.003
So tell me the magazines are the problem.

01:00:08.003 --> 01:00:11.243
So before you got to the waiting
room, you didn't have any problems.

01:00:12.053 --> 01:00:16.343
And then you sat down and you saw the
magazines and now I've got a problem.

01:00:16.763 --> 01:00:17.633
You did this to me.

01:00:17.633 --> 01:00:19.673
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:00:19.703 --> 01:00:21.683
And so it's not to say the
world doesn't injure us.

01:00:21.683 --> 01:00:22.823
Of course it does.

01:00:23.001 --> 01:00:25.251
And we can try and solve
that in a number of ways.

01:00:25.251 --> 01:00:29.331
And, and we, we can try not to
look at the wound and we can

01:00:29.331 --> 01:00:30.771
try not to feel the feelings.

01:00:31.007 --> 01:00:36.198
But I guess this is the, the hopeful and
also, uh, well, maybe confronting thing

01:00:36.198 --> 01:00:38.178
that I'd want to say about this, that.

01:00:38.377 --> 01:00:42.012
Uh, you know, even though there were
times I felt completely unable to look

01:00:42.012 --> 01:00:48.582
at things and address the things I needed
to address, but that nonetheless is where

01:00:48.582 --> 01:00:54.180
we have to go, and that when triggers,
when triggers happen for us, it's really

01:00:54.180 --> 01:00:58.560
important information that we're getting
and how we respond to that information.

01:00:58.560 --> 01:01:01.680
It's not always easy to find the
constructive way, immediately

01:01:01.925 --> 01:01:03.215
have to allow ourselves.

01:01:03.456 --> 01:01:06.456
To have a range of responses before
we maybe try to get a bit of a

01:01:06.456 --> 01:01:09.636
grip on it and go, okay, what,
what's really happening here?

01:01:09.824 --> 01:01:13.304
I was happy watching this show
until that little thing happened,

01:01:13.304 --> 01:01:16.274
and now I'm not happy, and now I'm
thinking these thoughts is okay.

01:01:16.274 --> 01:01:17.564
What's that pointing me to?

01:01:17.861 --> 01:01:19.001
what am I trying to avoid?

01:01:19.241 --> 01:01:23.441
And if I admit this thing that
I'm trying to avoid, admitting.

01:01:23.782 --> 01:01:25.492
Will I actually feel worse?

01:01:25.650 --> 01:01:27.240
maybe I can do this.

01:01:27.390 --> 01:01:29.310
Yeah, I was thinking of that before.

01:01:29.310 --> 01:01:30.540
That's the other thing of like, okay.

01:01:31.056 --> 01:01:32.451
To, to think it through a little bit.

01:01:32.451 --> 01:01:34.131
What happens if I do get triggered?

01:01:34.431 --> 01:01:34.671
Mm.

01:01:34.731 --> 01:01:35.601
Is, it's so bad.

01:01:35.601 --> 01:01:35.691
Mm-hmm.

01:01:35.931 --> 01:01:37.821
I'll feel some anxiety for a while.

01:01:37.881 --> 01:01:38.271
Yes.

01:01:38.301 --> 01:01:41.151
I won't actually get blown
up in, you know, yes.

01:01:41.181 --> 01:01:42.051
In that instant.

01:01:42.141 --> 01:01:42.621
That's right.

01:01:42.621 --> 01:01:44.811
So can we trust ourselves to, yeah.

01:01:44.811 --> 01:01:47.031
Just maybe just feel
the fear for a moment.

01:01:47.031 --> 01:01:47.211
Yeah.

01:01:47.211 --> 01:01:47.781
Feel, yeah.

01:01:47.901 --> 01:01:51.231
Spend, I don't know, maybe I could
spend a whole day in fear and.

01:01:51.791 --> 01:01:55.091
Yeah, I'd be distracted, but it wouldn't,
maybe I'd have to take a day off work,

01:01:55.091 --> 01:01:57.761
but would I be okay on the other side?

01:01:57.761 --> 01:01:58.571
Like Yeah.

01:01:58.601 --> 01:02:01.691
I still wouldn't actually have bombs
raining down on me in Melbourne.

01:02:01.751 --> 01:02:01.961
Yeah.

01:02:01.961 --> 01:02:04.721
And I've gotten myself right
side up before I can do it again.

01:02:04.721 --> 01:02:05.021
Yeah.

01:02:05.026 --> 01:02:05.186
Yeah.

01:02:05.191 --> 01:02:08.081
So that's the other thing
is yeah, the fear of fear.

01:02:08.321 --> 01:02:08.531
Yes.

01:02:08.531 --> 01:02:09.341
You know, big one.

01:02:09.341 --> 01:02:09.791
Huge one.

01:02:09.911 --> 01:02:10.901
Like the fear of fear.

01:02:10.961 --> 01:02:15.611
So are you saying, what are you saying
to me though, like that I should pay

01:02:15.611 --> 01:02:17.561
more attention to Gaza and Ukraine?

01:02:17.771 --> 01:02:19.121
No, not necessarily.

01:02:19.211 --> 01:02:19.451
I.

01:02:19.956 --> 01:02:25.386
And I should feel, I should be outraged
and terrified and appalled and sad

01:02:25.386 --> 01:02:29.166
and no, no for, well, for once this
little, that little anecdote I offered.

01:02:29.706 --> 01:02:30.966
No, it was entirely for me.

01:02:30.966 --> 01:02:32.316
You know, I, I wasn't, I.

01:02:32.781 --> 01:02:33.321
Offering.

01:02:33.321 --> 01:02:34.341
Anyone else advice?

01:02:34.341 --> 01:02:35.511
Yeah, it sounded like that.

01:02:35.511 --> 01:02:36.681
Maybe, but I'm just renewing.

01:02:36.756 --> 01:02:37.161
No, no.

01:02:37.161 --> 01:02:38.571
I mean, I'm just, we've gotta wrap it up.

01:02:38.571 --> 01:02:40.581
I'm just trying to tie
together all the threads.

01:02:41.061 --> 01:02:44.271
It seems like to me, you are
someone who can look the world s

01:02:44.271 --> 01:02:46.251
squarely in the eye most times.

01:02:46.251 --> 01:02:49.251
Use your intellect to understand
what you think's going on.

01:02:49.311 --> 01:02:50.121
I think you have.

01:02:50.456 --> 01:02:53.816
You often have an ideological
bent, which is to the, to the left.

01:02:53.876 --> 01:02:54.116
Yeah.

01:02:54.566 --> 01:02:58.496
And you're, you're gonna trust
left wing sources over, over

01:02:58.496 --> 01:03:00.086
centrist or right wing sources.

01:03:00.206 --> 01:03:00.446
Yeah.

01:03:00.596 --> 01:03:04.766
So in a way, I can predict somewhat what
your position on something's gonna be.

01:03:04.856 --> 01:03:05.096
Yeah.

01:03:05.178 --> 01:03:09.738
whereas I've retreated, I've said, no
longer can I look the world squarely

01:03:09.738 --> 01:03:12.438
in the eye and use my intellect
to understand what's going on.

01:03:12.498 --> 01:03:12.738
Mm.

01:03:12.798 --> 01:03:17.058
In some cases, I'm gonna stick
my head firmly in the sand and.

01:03:17.968 --> 01:03:21.748
You know, apart from when I feel
strong enough to check in with ai,

01:03:21.748 --> 01:03:23.818
what the latest is, and I do do that.

01:03:24.118 --> 01:03:24.478
Yeah.

01:03:24.688 --> 01:03:28.768
Um, which, which I wanna say is, sounds
good to me if it's working for you and

01:03:28.768 --> 01:03:33.928
that it's not something I've tried yet,
but I might and 'cause I'm still sort

01:03:33.928 --> 01:03:39.268
of still quite happy with my process
of like, you know, hand gathering and,

01:03:39.268 --> 01:03:43.738
you know, that, you know, sort of,
so, so, so it's a difference between.

01:03:44.059 --> 01:03:49.249
The woman I was dating who was standing
on Kulin Street shouting for a ceasefire.

01:03:49.369 --> 01:03:49.669
Yeah.

01:03:50.029 --> 01:03:55.999
And me asking cha, GPT, how do,
how do we get a ceasefire in Gaza?

01:03:55.999 --> 01:03:57.679
How is that likely to happen?

01:03:57.859 --> 01:03:58.159
Yeah.

01:03:58.219 --> 01:04:01.187
And it will go, Here's all
the possible permutations.

01:04:01.337 --> 01:04:02.867
Here's why it's so difficult.

01:04:02.987 --> 01:04:03.047
Yeah.

01:04:03.137 --> 01:04:08.357
Would you like to know more about Israeli
politics or the US influence, or would

01:04:08.357 --> 01:04:10.667
you And then I can go do a deep dive.

01:04:10.877 --> 01:04:11.147
Yeah.

01:04:11.207 --> 01:04:14.507
And, but I'm focusing in on
how does this get resolved?

01:04:14.567 --> 01:04:16.847
Not like what's the latest horror.

01:04:17.207 --> 01:04:17.387
Yeah.

01:04:17.392 --> 01:04:19.217
Because the horrors are unending.

01:04:19.337 --> 01:04:20.357
Yes, that's right.

01:04:20.357 --> 01:04:22.457
Um, and, and worsening.

01:04:22.847 --> 01:04:23.717
So it's like.

01:04:23.852 --> 01:04:26.732
the person who I was dating, who's
standing on the streets shouting for a

01:04:26.732 --> 01:04:31.652
ceasefire, potentially is doing something
more useful than I am by looking up

01:04:31.682 --> 01:04:33.272
how are we gonna get a ceasefire.

01:04:33.542 --> 01:04:33.752
Mm-hmm.

01:04:33.782 --> 01:04:38.972
But I would say it's pretty marginal the
impact that person's having in Con Street.

01:04:39.092 --> 01:04:39.242
Mm-hmm.

01:04:39.302 --> 01:04:43.982
And that's where I became super
cynical was like, yeah, like a rally in

01:04:43.982 --> 01:04:46.262
Melbourne is, is not gonna influence the.

01:04:46.712 --> 01:04:47.822
The Israeli government.

01:04:47.882 --> 01:04:48.632
I'm sorry.

01:04:48.932 --> 01:04:53.072
Like, oh, and look, can I, it's not,
can I just say though, I can find

01:04:53.072 --> 01:04:56.582
it very relatable, everything you're
saying, even though my personal

01:04:56.582 --> 01:04:59.852
response has been different, but I've
reacted the same way to other things.

01:04:59.882 --> 01:05:00.212
Yeah.

01:05:00.212 --> 01:05:04.292
Let's say, well, I went to the Iraq War
rallies, man, there was a million of us.

01:05:04.292 --> 01:05:04.352
Yeah.

01:05:04.352 --> 01:05:07.107
I know you've actually probably
done, I've done more rallies.

01:05:07.107 --> 01:05:10.617
I've done, I think you've put
your body in it more than I have.

01:05:10.617 --> 01:05:10.618
Yeah.

01:05:10.618 --> 01:05:10.621
Yeah, I have.

01:05:10.626 --> 01:05:10.712
Yeah.

01:05:11.187 --> 01:05:11.427
Yeah.

01:05:11.427 --> 01:05:13.977
And you know, we stopped
the Jabal Luki Uranium Mine.

01:05:14.157 --> 01:05:14.337
Yes.

01:05:14.367 --> 01:05:16.347
We freed some refugees from ura.

01:05:16.557 --> 01:05:16.947
Yes.

01:05:16.947 --> 01:05:20.457
There were things I was involved
in, and then I became cynical,

01:05:20.462 --> 01:05:25.437
like I, like I became cynical about
geopolitics and being on the streets.

01:05:25.552 --> 01:05:26.337
I, I don't know.

01:05:26.337 --> 01:05:28.107
I just don't think No, I, I understand.

01:05:28.107 --> 01:05:31.978
And I just wanted to say this,
like, in fairness to all that.

01:05:32.109 --> 01:05:35.649
It's just not easy to live in
a world where that's happening.

01:05:36.009 --> 01:05:41.004
It's just life has been more difficult
for everybody and just that little bit

01:05:41.004 --> 01:05:42.744
less fun for everybody because of it.

01:05:42.924 --> 01:05:46.014
And so I'll just say that
from a purely selfish Yeah.

01:05:46.044 --> 01:05:46.524
Uh, way.

01:05:46.524 --> 01:05:48.564
And I'm not absolving
everybody necessarily.

01:05:48.564 --> 01:05:48.774
Yeah.

01:05:48.834 --> 01:05:51.264
But like, I just wanna acknowledge
it's not an easy thing to sit with.

01:05:51.699 --> 01:05:55.299
And the people have found different
ways to react to it and a lot of

01:05:55.299 --> 01:05:59.289
it based on protecting their own
feelings, which again, very normal.

01:05:59.709 --> 01:06:06.309
And the seeing some futility in it is,
well, it's not unfamiliar to you or

01:06:06.309 --> 01:06:11.109
me from things, battles that were lost
in the past, but as you pointed out,

01:06:11.109 --> 01:06:12.579
there were some battles that were won.

01:06:13.179 --> 01:06:16.659
And I've been thinking a lot as
I know a lot of other people have

01:06:16.659 --> 01:06:18.099
been thinking about this recently.

01:06:18.343 --> 01:06:19.843
you know, anger's a defensive emotion.

01:06:19.843 --> 01:06:22.603
We were talking about that just while we
were on a pause in the recording here.

01:06:22.791 --> 01:06:25.641
But there's another defensive
emotion as well, which is cynicism.

01:06:25.803 --> 01:06:29.103
you know, giving into that feeling
of futility and it feels dangerous to

01:06:29.103 --> 01:06:30.903
people at the moment to have any hope.

01:06:31.062 --> 01:06:35.952
and me, uh, I know I've, I've had hopes
disappointed in the past, and I know the

01:06:35.952 --> 01:06:38.566
risks, but I keep, I continue to hope.

01:06:38.746 --> 01:06:44.026
It reminds me of the friends of my
parents, the Marxist, who always

01:06:44.026 --> 01:06:47.026
predicted the revolution was
gonna happen in the next decade.

01:06:47.026 --> 01:06:47.416
You know?

01:06:47.566 --> 01:06:47.656
Mm-hmm.

01:06:47.896 --> 01:06:51.886
Ever hopeful for the, yeah, for the great
calamity that would bring it all happen.

01:06:51.886 --> 01:06:53.086
Yes, exactly.

01:06:53.086 --> 01:06:54.016
Waiting for that.

01:06:54.286 --> 01:06:57.556
The sixties and the seventies and
the eighties and the nineties.

01:06:57.616 --> 01:06:58.426
Paris 68.

01:06:58.426 --> 01:06:59.776
It's about to happen again.

01:07:00.151 --> 01:07:00.441
Yeah.

01:07:00.446 --> 01:07:00.916
Yeah.

01:07:01.036 --> 01:07:07.349
It reminds me of, of them,
I, I don't know, like I think

01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:08.789
we were saying are fair.

01:07:08.789 --> 01:07:12.419
I think some things maybe that
I'd have to make you angry.

01:07:12.419 --> 01:07:13.889
Maybe they could just make you sad.

01:07:13.919 --> 01:07:14.159
Yeah.

01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:15.719
No, and that's, and that's
where I was gonna land.

01:07:15.869 --> 01:07:20.549
And to be fair, I'll be honest,
I, I, I've been so aghast at

01:07:20.549 --> 01:07:22.199
the Middle East that I haven't.

01:07:22.694 --> 01:07:24.974
Even allowed the sadness to really get in.

01:07:25.454 --> 01:07:25.964
Oh, well, yeah.

01:07:25.964 --> 01:07:25.965
No.

01:07:25.999 --> 01:07:26.684
You know, I haven't, I haven't.

01:07:27.014 --> 01:07:28.124
I realized the same thing.

01:07:28.124 --> 01:07:30.736
I was trying not to let the
sadness get in and yeah, I haven't

01:07:30.736 --> 01:07:32.954
felt the anger really either.

01:07:33.044 --> 01:07:33.374
Yeah.

01:07:33.464 --> 01:07:34.514
Or the sadness.

01:07:34.514 --> 01:07:37.394
I've just kind of gone, wow,
that's a crazy part of the world.

01:07:37.394 --> 01:07:38.474
I'm glad I don't live there.

01:07:38.654 --> 01:07:41.144
And I think what made, which
is not how I was raised.

01:07:41.204 --> 01:07:44.264
That's what I think probably
a lot of Australians do.

01:07:44.264 --> 01:07:46.634
Maybe the average Australian
does that, about that.

01:07:46.664 --> 01:07:47.234
Yes.

01:07:47.439 --> 01:07:47.739
Yes.

01:07:47.769 --> 01:07:50.439
Uh, and I've become a lot more
like the average Australian.

01:07:50.444 --> 01:07:50.694
Mm-hmm.

01:07:50.911 --> 01:07:52.621
I make a bit less than
the average Australian.

01:07:52.621 --> 01:07:53.011
Anyway.

01:07:53.371 --> 01:07:53.701
That up?

01:07:54.091 --> 01:07:54.241
No.

01:07:54.241 --> 01:07:55.081
In certain ways.

01:07:55.291 --> 01:07:55.621
Yeah.

01:07:55.681 --> 01:07:56.101
No, no.

01:07:56.101 --> 01:07:56.971
I make less money.

01:07:56.971 --> 01:07:59.971
I looked it up the other day than the
average, than the average Australian.

01:08:00.481 --> 01:08:03.391
Certainly make a lot less than those
tradies I see every morning in less than

01:08:03.391 --> 01:08:04.916
the average, average employee austral.

01:08:04.916 --> 01:08:06.061
Anyway, that's a sidetrack.

01:08:06.321 --> 01:08:07.724
which should be triggering to you.

01:08:08.024 --> 01:08:14.087
I've taken that, I've taken that general
like, wow, what a crazy part of the world.

01:08:14.707 --> 01:08:16.507
Who the fuck knows what's going on.

01:08:16.687 --> 01:08:16.957
Mm.

01:08:17.017 --> 01:08:18.517
Who knows what side to take.

01:08:18.637 --> 01:08:21.337
It's sad, but I'm going to just ignore it.

01:08:21.937 --> 01:08:21.997
Yeah.

01:08:21.997 --> 01:08:24.427
That's what I've pretty
much done where Yeah.

01:08:24.487 --> 01:08:27.457
But I've been around people like
that woman I was dating who are

01:08:27.457 --> 01:08:32.077
deep, deep into it and on the streets
and shouting into father and Yeah.

01:08:32.112 --> 01:08:34.209
so I, it's, I've been exposed to it.

01:08:34.209 --> 01:08:34.869
Isn't that interesting?

01:08:34.869 --> 01:08:35.349
Like I, yeah.

01:08:35.349 --> 01:08:38.979
Even without wanting to, I've been
right up against people organizing

01:08:38.979 --> 01:08:41.859
rallies and people like, uh.

01:08:42.444 --> 01:08:45.894
People who you might say have
something in common with your parents.

01:08:46.374 --> 01:08:47.934
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:08:47.934 --> 01:08:50.454
At a younger age in the
way I was raised and yeah.

01:08:50.555 --> 01:08:50.945
yeah.

01:08:50.945 --> 01:08:54.238
So David, you know, I'm, yeah.

01:08:54.238 --> 01:08:59.158
Defying my, my upbringing, but I'm
glad we've been able to talk about

01:08:59.158 --> 01:09:02.308
it today because it is something
that's very hard to talk about.

01:09:02.308 --> 01:09:06.598
But when Liv mentioned reaction and
reactivity, I did think about you calling

01:09:06.598 --> 01:09:08.188
me cunt, and I thought, fair enough.

01:09:08.683 --> 01:09:13.183
And I don't think there's any other issue
that quite gets the level of reaction

01:09:13.183 --> 01:09:16.273
or reactivity going as the war in Gaza.

01:09:16.333 --> 01:09:16.723
No.

01:09:16.813 --> 01:09:19.933
And maybe just before
that trans, you know.

01:09:19.993 --> 01:09:20.563
Yeah.

01:09:20.593 --> 01:09:22.963
Some of the trans discourse
has really made me mad.

01:09:23.095 --> 01:09:27.565
and yes, on a particular side, uh,
and I've got my criticisms of some of

01:09:27.565 --> 01:09:34.075
the discourse on the other side, but
nothing that compares with the absolute.

01:09:34.343 --> 01:09:38.663
Either knowing fascist baiting
or unknowing fascist baiting,

01:09:38.663 --> 01:09:40.193
I don't know which is worse.

01:09:40.338 --> 01:09:45.648
and certain kinds of speech which has led
directly to harms, not just theoretically.

01:09:45.978 --> 01:09:47.538
Hang on, we, we are finishing the show.

01:09:47.538 --> 01:09:49.578
We opening up a trans Well, no, no.

01:09:49.578 --> 01:09:52.278
I just wanted to point out that
before Garza came along, maybe

01:09:52.278 --> 01:09:56.118
that was the thing that we most
occasionally came to loggerheads about.

01:09:56.203 --> 01:09:57.133
oh, me and you?

01:09:57.223 --> 01:09:57.523
Yeah.

01:09:57.523 --> 01:09:58.153
Yeah, yeah.

01:09:58.153 --> 01:09:59.923
And just more at the level of like.

01:10:00.283 --> 01:10:03.883
Arguing about the discourse, I
think, rather than the issue itself.

01:10:03.943 --> 01:10:09.913
And yeah, I mean, I, I try to find line
between somewhat rebelling against my left

01:10:09.913 --> 01:10:12.433
wing upbringing and becoming like a bigot.

01:10:13.123 --> 01:10:14.353
Yes, I think you do.

01:10:14.358 --> 01:10:17.113
And you know, 'cause I
want to shed some of that.

01:10:17.263 --> 01:10:20.563
I, I don't want to agree with
everyone who lives in Northgate.

01:10:20.623 --> 01:10:22.723
Do you know what I, I
think it's very healthy.

01:10:23.248 --> 01:10:25.948
To want to critique the orthodoxies
of your childhood, right?

01:10:25.948 --> 01:10:26.008
Yeah.

01:10:26.038 --> 01:10:30.298
I think that that is absolutely
necessary and, and advisable

01:10:30.448 --> 01:10:33.568
and actually really healthy and
sometimes a really fun thing to do.

01:10:33.568 --> 01:10:36.298
Also, to kind of just
poke at it and go, ha ha.

01:10:36.748 --> 01:10:40.528
It's been fun to go from just
a standard lefty to a centrist.

01:10:40.558 --> 01:10:40.648
Sure.

01:10:41.368 --> 01:10:41.488
Yeah.

01:10:41.938 --> 01:10:46.828
But, but, but when I did the vote Compass,
I'm like a hard left economic left person.

01:10:46.828 --> 01:10:50.188
As it turns out, socially I've become
a bit of a centrist and the, I'm

01:10:50.188 --> 01:10:53.488
not as socially progressive around
things like trans and whatever.

01:10:53.488 --> 01:10:54.843
Well, and do you know what I.

01:10:54.843 --> 01:10:58.048
Yeah, there's plenty of lefties
of that description, Joe.

01:10:58.048 --> 01:11:00.118
Like you don't need to
feel alone by any means.

01:11:00.118 --> 01:11:04.558
There are loads and loads and loads,
and I would even possibly count myself,

01:11:04.558 --> 01:11:09.418
one of them in certain respects that
I'm far more interested overall in the

01:11:09.418 --> 01:11:13.168
economic side of it than social policy.

01:11:13.326 --> 01:11:13.986
and.

01:11:14.751 --> 01:11:18.201
You know, trendy, progressive issues
of a sort of, more of a cultural

01:11:18.201 --> 01:11:19.911
variety are less interesting to me.

01:11:19.911 --> 01:11:22.761
But you have excellent pedigree
when it comes to trendy, progressive

01:11:22.761 --> 01:11:25.161
issues like you Yeah, pretty much.

01:11:25.273 --> 01:11:27.463
you know, you hit the right
notes on all those things.

01:11:27.493 --> 01:11:27.613
Yeah.

01:11:27.613 --> 01:11:28.453
That, that's true.

01:11:28.513 --> 01:11:32.976
But part of that is like, just like
a knowing like solidarity that,

01:11:33.036 --> 01:11:35.796
you know, people have requested
solidarity and I'm providing it.

01:11:36.066 --> 01:11:36.306
Yeah.

01:11:36.366 --> 01:11:36.666
But.

01:11:37.266 --> 01:11:41.286
It, I just also, my personal
beliefs do tend to line up.

01:11:41.316 --> 01:11:41.616
Yeah.

01:11:41.676 --> 01:11:45.486
And, and that I do want people to
be able to express their gender

01:11:45.486 --> 01:11:46.986
in whatever way and feel safe.

01:11:47.256 --> 01:11:53.445
And, I also am willing to acknowledge
that it, it got a little too far in

01:11:53.445 --> 01:11:58.439
certain areas in terms of, distracting
us all from some fundamental questions

01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:01.019
that the language side of it.

01:12:01.049 --> 01:12:05.159
It became far too prominent, which
was causing a right wing backlash.

01:12:05.159 --> 01:12:08.969
And I mean, I don't give a fig if it
upsets them or not, but what it was

01:12:09.059 --> 01:12:13.259
doing was distracting from really
fundamental issues like the economics of

01:12:13.259 --> 01:12:15.839
healthcare and the economics of housing.

01:12:16.259 --> 01:12:16.769
And yeah.

01:12:16.829 --> 01:12:18.179
And it was a gift.

01:12:18.599 --> 01:12:18.900
It was a gift.

01:12:18.900 --> 01:12:19.529
It was a fucking gift.

01:12:19.649 --> 01:12:19.889
Yeah.

01:12:19.889 --> 01:12:22.353
And, and what 90% of the left wing folks?

01:12:22.681 --> 01:12:25.951
That maybe have alienated you on
other things, you'd be surprised.

01:12:25.951 --> 01:12:28.743
I think there's an emerging
consensus, which is.

01:12:29.358 --> 01:12:32.448
Oops, we got sidetracked
by culture war stuff.

01:12:32.508 --> 01:12:32.778
Yeah.

01:12:32.838 --> 01:12:34.008
Let's get back to economics.

01:12:34.008 --> 01:12:36.198
You're talking about the US
though, and we No, no, no.

01:12:36.198 --> 01:12:37.158
I I think it's the same globally.

01:12:37.548 --> 01:12:40.968
Well, we just elected another boring
state left government in Australia, so.

01:12:41.058 --> 01:12:41.418
Sure.

01:12:41.418 --> 01:12:43.458
And that had something to do
that had something to do with

01:12:43.458 --> 01:12:44.928
getting away from culture war.

01:12:44.928 --> 01:12:47.928
And, you know, maybe they were offering
something on, they were offering

01:12:47.928 --> 01:12:49.728
something on the economic side of things.

01:12:49.998 --> 01:12:50.238
Yeah.

01:12:50.243 --> 01:12:51.678
But, but I, they stuck to economics.

01:12:51.738 --> 01:12:53.718
But I think this is
across the western world.

01:12:54.108 --> 01:12:56.448
The left across the western
world has had a reckoning.

01:12:57.258 --> 01:13:01.818
I had a number of huge
setbacks and occasional signs

01:13:01.818 --> 01:13:03.378
of hope that then withered.

01:13:03.798 --> 01:13:08.473
So there's a profound reckoning, and
I'll just tell you one anecdote, from

01:13:08.473 --> 01:13:13.063
a left-wing podcast that, uh, they were
talking about being at a conf, like being

01:13:13.063 --> 01:13:16.273
at a proper hard, hard left conference.

01:13:16.753 --> 01:13:20.048
And someone sort of raised the
question, in a speech, you know.

01:13:20.363 --> 01:13:22.133
Why are we ineffective?

01:13:22.313 --> 01:13:24.923
Why aren't we getting through
to the average person as much

01:13:24.923 --> 01:13:26.303
as we think we should be?

01:13:26.363 --> 01:13:29.243
Like not just like we believe
we're right and should be

01:13:29.243 --> 01:13:30.293
getting through to more people.

01:13:30.293 --> 01:13:30.743
No, no, no.

01:13:31.223 --> 01:13:36.503
Why are we failing on the tactical and
strategic level and when we think we

01:13:36.503 --> 01:13:39.743
actually, we probably should be doing
better on the tactical, strategic level.

01:13:39.743 --> 01:13:43.163
Like we've actually got some
good messages here and uh, one.

01:13:43.300 --> 01:13:47.200
lefty campaigner in his, uh, apparently
fifties or sixties stood up and he

01:13:47.200 --> 01:13:53.500
said to a mostly younger audience, it's
because most of you are such cunts.

01:13:53.830 --> 01:13:53.950
Yeah.

01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:56.980
To each other, to the public.

01:13:57.235 --> 01:13:59.845
You talk down to each other,
you talk down to everyone.

01:13:59.845 --> 01:14:01.915
No one's fucking good enough for you.

01:14:02.335 --> 01:14:04.345
You're so damn up yourselves.

01:14:04.345 --> 01:14:09.325
And so self satisfied with like,
and this includes me with, you know,

01:14:09.325 --> 01:14:11.155
how correct we are about things.

01:14:11.425 --> 01:14:15.565
And we've allowed that to get in
the way of just saying to people.

01:14:16.570 --> 01:14:20.980
Hey brother, do you need
help with shelter, brother?

01:14:21.190 --> 01:14:23.590
Are you getting pissed on at work?

01:14:24.010 --> 01:14:27.460
You know, like, what's getting you down?

01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:28.480
We can help.

01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:29.380
Like, yeah.

01:14:29.500 --> 01:14:33.040
You know, we've, we've gotten away
from, you know, putting all of

01:14:33.040 --> 01:14:35.050
our, our, our resources into like.

01:14:36.025 --> 01:14:41.005
Cultural politics has meant that
yeah, the average person just

01:14:41.095 --> 01:14:44.575
standing on the sidelines going,
well, wait a minute, who's looking

01:14:44.755 --> 01:14:46.675
Like, I'm trying to pay the rent here.

01:14:46.945 --> 01:14:47.185
Yeah.

01:14:47.185 --> 01:14:48.655
And my wages are stagnant.

01:14:48.775 --> 01:14:50.605
And like, who's, what are we doing?

01:14:50.635 --> 01:14:51.805
What are we gonna do about that?

01:14:51.925 --> 01:14:58.062
Like, and that, and as I've, and I've,
as I've said to long since, you know, to.

01:14:58.632 --> 01:15:02.991
A very close person of mine who's,
trans, and I said, I think, could we

01:15:02.991 --> 01:15:08.093
all agree the thing we all need is
affordable housing and healthcare?

01:15:08.093 --> 01:15:10.133
And they were like, yeah, absolutely.

01:15:10.133 --> 01:15:11.723
And that's what we
should be talking about.

01:15:11.873 --> 01:15:12.113
Yeah.

01:15:12.113 --> 01:15:13.073
And yeah.

01:15:13.073 --> 01:15:15.563
And the word we've managed
to do a whole episode on.

01:15:16.313 --> 01:15:18.683
Reactivity and avoid
using, is the word woke?

01:15:18.803 --> 01:15:18.983
Yeah.

01:15:19.613 --> 01:15:24.293
We have, what you're describing is
basically the woke mistake that Yeah.

01:15:24.683 --> 01:15:27.743
Was, came to a huge reckoning
with Trump being reelected.

01:15:28.343 --> 01:15:28.613
Yeah.

01:15:28.613 --> 01:15:32.633
And I think, I think we got maneuvered
into that by the press, by the same

01:15:32.633 --> 01:15:38.573
people who were running, you know,
carrying water for bad people as

01:15:38.573 --> 01:15:40.133
we've discussed earlier in this thing.

01:15:40.193 --> 01:15:42.863
And or, you know, helping us all
to live in a bit of a state of

01:15:42.863 --> 01:15:45.323
denial about a lot of things and.

01:15:45.503 --> 01:15:48.981
I don't think it's entirely our fault
that there were well-meaning people

01:15:48.981 --> 01:15:53.301
who just felt that they had to react
all the time to the discourse going on.

01:15:53.301 --> 01:15:55.911
Instead of like, no, no,
let's set up our own agenda.

01:15:56.121 --> 01:15:57.711
Yeah, let's set up our own discourse.

01:15:57.741 --> 01:15:58.761
Let's run a strategy.

01:15:58.911 --> 01:16:04.761
Let's run a strategy and let's aim
squarely at the world we want instead of.

01:16:05.496 --> 01:16:08.131
Trying to corral the discourse
or something like that.

01:16:08.131 --> 01:16:12.396
I think the Australian Labor Party
ran a strategy and won that handsomely

01:16:12.486 --> 01:16:15.936
other, I think part a big part of this
because I was spent the three years

01:16:15.936 --> 01:16:19.926
of elbow getting broker and broker
and broker while working full time.

01:16:20.076 --> 01:16:20.436
Yeah.

01:16:20.531 --> 01:16:22.091
And that's still happening.

01:16:22.091 --> 01:16:24.761
But when the election rolled around,
I thought, well, this guy's gonna

01:16:24.761 --> 01:16:26.591
fuck me over less than the other guy.

01:16:26.741 --> 01:16:29.801
But also, let's face it, if Trump had
to taken power after the election,

01:16:29.801 --> 01:16:31.001
it might've been a different outcome.

01:16:31.001 --> 01:16:31.331
Totally.

01:16:31.451 --> 01:16:31.691
Yeah.

01:16:31.691 --> 01:16:32.591
They got lucky.

01:16:32.981 --> 01:16:34.936
I mean, it's like, oh, I see.

01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:37.119
So they're geniuses in hindsight.

01:16:37.149 --> 01:16:38.499
Yeah, because Trump got elected.

01:16:38.859 --> 01:16:39.339
Exactly.

01:16:39.339 --> 01:16:42.789
It's like, oh, you get a, you
get to have a look at what?

01:16:43.179 --> 01:16:47.709
Patriarchal, blokey, corrupt.

01:16:47.769 --> 01:16:49.059
Loose wheeling.

01:16:49.089 --> 01:16:49.659
Right wing.

01:16:49.659 --> 01:16:50.529
It looks like.

01:16:50.559 --> 01:16:50.739
Oh.

01:16:50.739 --> 01:16:52.569
It's like, actually we do want nerds.

01:16:52.629 --> 01:16:57.309
We do want actually fairly
ideologically bland nerds in charge.

01:16:57.309 --> 01:16:57.369
Yeah.

01:16:57.459 --> 01:16:58.029
Perhaps.

01:16:58.029 --> 01:16:59.919
I mean, that is one way
of reading the election.

01:17:00.249 --> 01:17:01.314
I think the other is that.

01:17:02.139 --> 01:17:06.309
There was a fucking massive effort
to discredit all the independents and

01:17:06.309 --> 01:17:10.119
the teals and the greens, and that
basically all the people in this country

01:17:10.119 --> 01:17:14.199
were actually providing any kind of
useful critique and demanding that

01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:16.059
we do much, much, much, much better.

01:17:16.359 --> 01:17:20.672
All of those people have
been absolutely dragged.

01:17:21.197 --> 01:17:23.087
By every MA head in this country.

01:17:23.207 --> 01:17:24.677
Like every last one.

01:17:25.367 --> 01:17:26.117
I'll say that.

01:17:26.147 --> 01:17:30.467
That there's this massive fear
of, oh, imagine if it wasn't

01:17:30.467 --> 01:17:31.877
a two party duopoly anymore.

01:17:31.877 --> 01:17:33.977
No, no, we can't allow that.

01:17:34.367 --> 01:17:37.097
Like apparently that's the worst
thing PE people can imagine

01:17:37.157 --> 01:17:38.957
is like minority government.

01:17:39.257 --> 01:17:44.807
It's like back in 2016, the worst
thing that a whole section of the press

01:17:44.807 --> 01:17:47.837
could imagine was a Sanders candidacy.

01:17:48.617 --> 01:17:49.787
Oh, the horror.

01:17:50.567 --> 01:17:52.517
And it's like, now look at where we are.

01:17:52.517 --> 01:17:58.757
You fuck wits the, the worst case
scenario in your mind was like of

01:17:59.087 --> 01:18:02.387
basically moderately left wing president.

01:18:02.687 --> 01:18:04.547
That was the worst case scenario.

01:18:05.387 --> 01:18:06.227
Unthinkable.

01:18:06.557 --> 01:18:11.357
Now you've got a used car salesman
running the fucking world like.

01:18:12.092 --> 01:18:12.782
Well done.

01:18:12.902 --> 01:18:14.162
Well fucking done.

01:18:14.252 --> 01:18:16.652
I think that's a really good
reactivity to finish up on.

01:18:16.652 --> 01:18:19.082
Sam, we've gone down a lot of sidetracks.

01:18:19.082 --> 01:18:23.312
We've opened up a lot of things that are
all like 90 minute topics, and that's an

01:18:23.312 --> 01:18:25.472
insult to use car salesman fundamentally.

01:18:25.472 --> 01:18:27.302
Some of them are probably okay, you know?

01:18:27.872 --> 01:18:28.682
But yeah, you're right.

01:18:28.682 --> 01:18:29.522
This is, yes.

01:18:29.582 --> 01:18:33.250
Well, one thing that does trigger me
is, What could have happened instead?

01:18:33.250 --> 01:18:36.340
You know, dam it, if I stop and
think about that, I do get upset.

01:18:36.700 --> 01:18:37.120
Yeah.

01:18:37.510 --> 01:18:42.981
Well, we're here now in our center
left, boring country bubble.

01:18:43.371 --> 01:18:43.761
Yeah.

01:18:43.971 --> 01:18:45.771
And, uh, I don't think
it's such a bad thing.

01:18:45.771 --> 01:18:50.001
I, I think it's, uh, well, let's say we've
finally gotten Canberra back to center.

01:18:50.001 --> 01:18:50.571
Right.

01:18:50.991 --> 01:18:52.971
But you, and now we can
start dragging them.

01:18:54.051 --> 01:18:54.501
You.

01:18:54.501 --> 01:18:56.121
Well, that's your side of politics.

01:18:56.121 --> 01:18:58.581
I'm a centrist, so I've
already achieved my aims.

01:18:58.795 --> 01:19:01.075
I'm already pretty much
living in paradise.

01:19:01.177 --> 01:19:01.867
it feels good.

01:19:01.957 --> 01:19:03.757
One of these days you'll just,
but I can't afford a car.

01:19:03.817 --> 01:19:04.297
No.

01:19:04.657 --> 01:19:07.567
One of these days you'll just, my car
died and I can't afford to replace it.

01:19:08.047 --> 01:19:08.617
That sucks.

01:19:08.617 --> 01:19:08.947
Yeah.

01:19:08.947 --> 01:19:13.717
So I'm driving my mom's car, but I'm
living in centrist heaven, you know?

01:19:14.227 --> 01:19:14.527
Oh, yeah.

01:19:14.527 --> 01:19:14.707
Yeah.

01:19:14.707 --> 01:19:15.517
Well, so I don't know.

01:19:15.517 --> 01:19:18.582
Maybe Dutton would've put me in a
better economic position, but Well,

01:19:18.587 --> 01:19:20.182
one of these days you'll just, I'm
willing to go down with the shit.

01:19:20.182 --> 01:19:23.257
One of these days you'll just admit
you're a Hobbs bomb after all.

01:19:23.257 --> 01:19:24.787
And yeah, you're gonna join us.

01:19:24.787 --> 01:19:26.617
I have been reading a
lot of Marxist history.

01:19:26.647 --> 01:19:29.287
I really wanna do a subject about,
I just wanna hear you talk about it.

01:19:29.477 --> 01:19:32.537
Actually, yeah, we could talk some
Hobbs ball maybe on the next episode.

01:19:32.537 --> 01:19:34.547
But I wanted to do a shout
out before we finish.

01:19:34.937 --> 01:19:41.207
Today's episode was long and based on, uh,
one sentence topic idea from a listener.

01:19:41.387 --> 01:19:41.657
Yeah.

01:19:41.747 --> 01:19:45.197
So I would love to hear from one of
our listeners if there's something

01:19:45.197 --> 01:19:46.487
you'd like us to talk about.

01:19:46.564 --> 01:19:48.871
I was worried this was gonna
be a 20 minute episode.

01:19:48.871 --> 01:19:50.011
It's longer than that.

01:19:50.011 --> 01:19:50.311
Don't worry.

01:19:50.311 --> 01:19:50.401
Yeah.

01:19:50.461 --> 01:19:53.131
Um, so I think we can talk
about kind of anything.

01:19:53.551 --> 01:19:54.931
So please.

01:19:55.281 --> 01:19:58.071
Write in, send us a
message, send us a text.

01:19:58.071 --> 01:20:00.621
If you know us, most of
you probably know us.

01:20:00.711 --> 01:20:00.861
Yeah.

01:20:01.311 --> 01:20:01.491
Yeah.

01:20:01.551 --> 01:20:04.851
And we will talk about something
that you want us to talk about.

01:20:05.601 --> 01:20:07.881
I did scare a few people, Sam, with my.

01:20:08.406 --> 01:20:12.336
Tongue in cheek suggested we were gonna
do a 25 part series on the Ta de Ching.

01:20:12.756 --> 01:20:13.146
Oh, yeah.

01:20:13.176 --> 01:20:15.576
Now, that's not to say we won't
come back to it, 'cause I think we

01:20:15.576 --> 01:20:19.596
will, but that was meant as humor.

01:20:19.746 --> 01:20:23.766
We weren't gonna just do the ta de ching
for three years and, and it would've felt

01:20:23.766 --> 01:20:26.406
like a deviation from like core business.

01:20:26.406 --> 01:20:27.186
I understand that.

01:20:27.186 --> 01:20:30.216
Well, Liv, when you proposed this
topic, wanted us to be relatable,

01:20:30.216 --> 01:20:31.896
so hopefully we've been relatable.

01:20:32.556 --> 01:20:32.831
Mm, yes.

01:20:32.836 --> 01:20:33.006
Yes.

01:20:33.006 --> 01:20:36.996
And, um, hopefully Liv's recovering
well from her appendicitis.

01:20:37.281 --> 01:20:37.551
Yeah.

01:20:37.641 --> 01:20:42.891
And if and when we do get back to the
Dao, which we will, that it's what

01:20:42.891 --> 01:20:47.751
I've, my reflection on those first
two was like, yeah, yeah, fine, fine.

01:20:47.931 --> 01:20:52.731
There was some worthwhile discussion
there, but I've since thought of much

01:20:52.731 --> 01:20:56.691
better examples to illustrate like
how I think about that second verse,

01:20:56.691 --> 01:20:58.101
for example, just very concrete.

01:20:58.611 --> 01:21:00.441
Well, maybe that can be a
warning to the audience.

01:21:00.441 --> 01:21:04.071
If you don't send us a topic
idea, we will get back to the Dow.

01:21:04.101 --> 01:21:04.641
That's right.

01:21:04.671 --> 01:21:06.531
You've been, you know, being warned.

01:21:06.531 --> 01:21:08.571
You've been warned and that's right.

01:21:08.601 --> 01:21:11.781
But on the other hand, if we do
end up there, for example, I was,

01:21:12.411 --> 01:21:13.581
I was, I was thinking about beauty.

01:21:13.581 --> 01:21:15.051
He, he's trying to start
a whole nother episode.

01:21:15.561 --> 01:21:20.151
I was thinking about beauty and
ugliness more, and that's what I

01:21:20.151 --> 01:21:23.541
love about the text is like you, you
just let it wash over you and then

01:21:23.541 --> 01:21:26.211
just little things come to mind and.

01:21:26.256 --> 01:21:32.076
Y you know, back to those magazine covers,
if, if we narrowly define beauty like

01:21:32.076 --> 01:21:35.346
this, then it diminishes everything else.

01:21:35.346 --> 01:21:37.356
So it creates ugliness in the process.

01:21:37.356 --> 01:21:38.616
It's just a very simple thing.

01:21:39.126 --> 01:21:39.516
Ah, that's good.

01:21:39.521 --> 01:21:42.276
And, and yeah, and if we broaden
the idea of what's beautiful,

01:21:42.726 --> 01:21:44.706
we get to experience more of it.

01:21:44.886 --> 01:21:48.816
And then if we let go entirely of
notions of beauty and ugliness.

01:21:49.371 --> 01:21:51.651
Well then maybe we see
things as they really are.

01:21:51.651 --> 01:21:52.849
So alright, Sam.

01:21:52.849 --> 01:21:53.659
Well it's been fun.

01:21:53.779 --> 01:21:57.799
Well, that was another five
of the 10, 10,000 things.

01:21:57.829 --> 01:21:58.339
Wow.

01:21:58.339 --> 01:22:00.619
If we get together more
often, we'll have less to say.

01:22:00.679 --> 01:22:01.819
Yes, exactly.

01:22:01.824 --> 01:22:01.934
Exactly.

01:22:01.939 --> 01:22:05.629
It's always a challenge, but, uh,
it's good to be back in the shed and.

01:22:05.693 --> 01:22:07.972
yeah, it'll be a slightly
emptier tank next time I guess.

01:22:07.972 --> 01:22:10.102
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:22:10.320 --> 01:22:14.520
but I'm glad we resolved the
Middle East and Eastern Europe.

01:22:15.080 --> 01:22:19.520
And all forms of reactivity and,
and their own personal beefs.

01:22:19.610 --> 01:22:20.000
Yes.

01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:22.430
Trauma, all in the one episode.

01:22:22.520 --> 01:22:24.590
And cultural and economic politics.

01:22:24.650 --> 01:22:24.830
Yeah.

01:22:24.855 --> 01:22:26.360
All, all address asteroids.

01:22:26.420 --> 01:22:28.130
You're welcome Asteroids.

01:22:28.190 --> 01:22:30.350
Don't worry about the asteroids,
don't worry about 'em.

01:22:30.625 --> 01:22:36.025
Yeah, all dealt with, we direct, we,
we redirected one the DART NASA dart.

01:22:36.385 --> 01:22:38.545
It's true expedition
redirected an asteroid.

01:22:38.545 --> 01:22:41.935
So if one's coming, so we're playing
billiards with asteroids now everybody.

01:22:41.935 --> 01:22:42.895
So Yeah.

01:22:42.955 --> 01:22:44.035
You know things are good.

01:22:44.095 --> 01:22:44.425
Yeah.

01:22:44.970 --> 01:22:45.626
See you mate.

01:22:45.631 --> 01:22:45.950
I see ya.