Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Low.
And today we've heard from Liv about a good topic for us, a
very US topic, reactivity being reactive, two, commonly known as
being triggered unquote these days.
Mm.
There's a lot in that.
Firstly, shout out to Liv who's in hospital, having
just had her appendix out.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah, so you know when this finally reaches there is she'll
be appendix free appendectomy.
Yeah.
So a big couple of days for Liv.
I imagine she was fairly reactive to the pain in her stomach.
Um, but we're not probably talking about that kind of reactivity are we?
So just read it through a bit more slowly.
Okay.
Reactivity being reactive.
Too commonly known as being triggered these days.
Okay.
So I feel like the triggered thing was something from the naughties.
Was it?
I think it started coming in, uh, I feel like it got, it was, it
was really strong in the, in the discourse in the teens, I would say.
Yeah.
So a bit of peaked a while ago.
Mm-hmm.
You don't hear that many people talking about being triggered anymore.
We don't get trigger warnings as much.
I feel like trigger warnings really peaked.
Uh, sometime around 20, 20 A little bit before then.
Yeah.
It could have been like, I feel like Joe Rogan did a colony special.
Called Triggered, which, you know, like tapped into vaguely right
wing people being annoyed by left wing people feeling triggered.
Oh yeah.
People, people being annoyed about people being triggered.
Yes.
Was a huge part of the discourse.
Yes.
That somehow you were infringing on other people's psychological.
Comfort and, and, and their sort of freedom of expression by demanding that,
you know, don't use this word unless you wanna upset people and you know, yeah.
Don't say things this sort of way and don't talk about this sort of topic.
There was a feeling that maybe this was, censorious, censorious or that that.
Or the, the more charitable reading that okay, even if this is well
intentioned, it might be going too far and we might be limiting our
ability to be honest about things.
Yeah.
Uh, and so that's like the fairer version of the critique.
I was never that on board with the, obviously with the right wing version
of it, which is just suck it up.
Yeah.
Everyone's gone soft, everyone's gone.
Soft, rubber a brick on it.
Stop being such a souk.
if I wanna use horrible racial and misogynistic slur and
homophobic slurs, what's it to you?
Uh, it's only words, princess, that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
I'm a little bit more like that, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
A little bit.
Probably more than you.
but when I look, when I.
First saw there was trigger warnings before a mm-hmm.
Movie or a show or whatever.
I wasn't immediately kind of like, this is bullshit.
Yeah.
I was like, fair enough.
Like someone's had some trauma.
Yeah.
And trauma was another word that came in and got really
big at the same time, I think.
Yeah.
I feel like trauma's come a, uh, maybe a little bit.
Uh, I think it's peaked a little bit after, but obviously
they're related concepts.
Um, I, I feel like trauma has stuck around and become very legitimate and
very fleshed out, whereas the trigger, certainly something like a trigger
warning has really just gone away.
Yeah, absolutely.
It, you really only see it.
I think these days when it is like highly justified, all that lawyers
have basically required it to be there, which is another aspect.
Yeah.
so that's that part of what Liv's asked us to talk about.
But in terms of being reactive, I mean, so this being reactive as in being offended.
Mm-hmm.
But the part of being reactive that I relate to is being afraid of things.
Yeah, that's right.
And so I think.
Well back to the right wing critique.
I do.
I just wanna say a little bit more about that.
What was missing from that critique?
Well, I think what w the assumption with it was people were choosing to be
upset by things and that they were doing that in order to exert control over
what others can or should say or do.
now.
Maybe there were people who were hamming it up a bit and were prof being,
going around, being professionally triggered, you know, maybe one or two.
But speaking from personal experience that back when I had, you know, really,
really chronic severe anxiety and panic attacks, that there were things that
triggered that and there were things that I, naturally I would seek to avoid.
Yeah, right.
And so this back in the two thousands, and I would've loved trigger warning culture.
I would've been all about it.
Like I would've been like, yes, thank you for telling me that this
show is gonna have three things that are definitely gonna set me off.
Um, or this article, or, you know, for a long time there, I couldn't scroll.
I couldn't scroll the feeds because I was gonna come across something
that was gonna send me spiraling.
But what eventually happened is I learned about how agoraphobia was
just the old fashioned term now for what we call generalized anxiety.
And I learned about generalized anxiety, which was that it's, it's
it, it's a process that you end up at.
You don't start with generalized anxiety.
You start with something more specific and then you end up.
Uh, trying to avoid that thing.
Then you end up trying to avoid things that remind you of that thing.
Then you try and then you end up with a massive list of things that you're
trying to avoid, and then your whole life becomes avoidance basically.
And then you can't leave the house.
You, or you might not even feel safe at home either.
when I stopped answering text messages and calls and, you know, things like
that for a while So I was in a high, I was in a state of high reactivity
to things and was constantly trying to manage my environment to, to remove the
things that were gonna cause me to react.
What I eventually learned, and this is where trigger warning
culture eventually landed at too.
Was that the things that were setting me off, I needed to face them at some point.
Mm, that it wasn't gonna get better by removing all of the
things that made me reactive.
Because even if I could control my media diet to such an extent that there was
nothing in there that made me feel unsafe, people were still gonna say things like
without meaning to, without being right wing jerks, they without being edge
lords, they were just gonna say things just in a normal course of existence
that tell a story about their own life that was gonna make me feel awful.
And I'm like, okay, well I have to deal with these feelings.
What kind of things were triggering you back then?
Well, anything.
Well, uh, well, you know, anything to do with death, uh, after my mother passed or
even, you know, when she was still sick.
well, anything to do with cancer.
I can, I almost can't remember as much of the detail now, which is a good thing.
'cause you know, that's one of the, apparently one of the things that really.
Is helpful to us is we do forget and it's good to forget, and to kinda
let, let stuff fade a little bit.
But it did, like I said, it turned into a really massive list.
things to do with relationships failing.
interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, 'cause I, I feel like I live my life a little bit like what you
were describing from the two thousands.
Like I've really.
CI really control my media diet.
Uh, I don't, I I went from being a news junkie mm-hmm.
Within, oh, I was a news junkie too, as we've talked about.
Yeah.
Within economist subscription, who would probably, even at my peak, even
compared to you, Sam would know more about what's going on in the world.
Oh yeah.
Even the little countries that no one thinks about in Africa or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I knew what the fuck was going on.
Yeah.
And I was paying.
A top dollar to get this information, and I felt great until
I didn't, until it was really.
You know, I think probably Ukraine war was too overwhelming for me and
just, yeah, a nuclear power going to war in Europe was just like, mm-hmm.
It was so shocking that I just couldn't, it, it didn't seem, seem
distant anymore, and it was just too terrifying to contemplate.
And I find Putin so terrifying as a character.
Mm-hmm.
That I started to withdraw and then I kept withdrawing.
And then something I mentioned on the show is.
News organizations I used to trust growing up, like The Guardian became really nasty.
Clickbait, yeah.
Organizations, and I think the one I mentioned on the show was
Planet Killing Asteroid headed towards Earth was a mm-hmm.
Clickbait headline they had.
Yeah, when I'd had, yeah.
You know, with my bipolar I'd had months of losing sleep,
thinking about an asteroid.
Mm-hmm.
hitting the earth and killing us all, you know.
Mm-hmm.
Not months, almost a year or two.
I thought about asteroids a lot.
uh, that's just an example.
I can relate.
Yeah.
That's just an example.
But I, I just found I couldn't trust, any of the news sources anymore.
And then.
Yeah.
And then the economists turned really propagandistic once the Ukraine
war did start, and I didn't trust them so much as a source anymore,
which maybe I never should have.
Mm-hmm.
'cause they're highly ideological.
Um, I think we should be suspicious of absolutely every single media outlet.
Not, not suspicious to the degree that we just cannot get any sort
of grip on reality whatsoever.
Yeah.
But, but that, you know, there's a reasonable critique.
That I could make of every single media outlet you've mentioned.
Yeah.
And then when I, but what changed?
What's changed in the last 12 months is ai.
Mm.
Because now when I'm feeling strong, not when I'm first thing in the
morning, when I'm having my coffee.
Yeah.
When I'm anxious and raw.
But when I'm feeling strong, give yourself, give yourself a moment.
Yeah.
If I'm having a strong moment on a Sunday afternoon relaxing mm-hmm.
Dinners in the oven or something.
Mm-hmm.
Hey, chat GPT.
What's going on with the Ukraine War?
Okay.
Is there a path to peace?
What would that look like?
How do we solve this problem?
How?
Who's working on solving climate change?
What are some solutions here?
And I frame my questions to AI in a way that isn't just blood and gore.
Mm-hmm.
And enables me to engage with the topic realistically.
But in a framing that I find is not a complete waste of time
that's just going to, to get back to the topic, make me react.
Yeah.
And you know, so I found it.
It's been systematically clearing my head for the last six months.
Mm-hmm.
These sessions I've had with chat.
GPT.
Yes.
Like, because I can go so deep and get into all the intricate
details, but it's on my terms.
Mm-hmm.
And it's without any, uh, images.
I'm not watching footage over a war taking place.
I'm not looking at photos of Putin or whatever.
I, no, no, no.
I, I don't think images of conflict are useful for the most part.
You might, you might need to see one or two to, you know, get some sense.
But if you're actually trying to, if you're trying to understand what's
going on, it, it, overall it is better to stick with, with analysis and
firsthand reports, I think is, you know.
Yeah.
But yeah, in terms of reaction and reactivity, I tightly, now
I tightly control my media diet.
Mm-hmm.
Because the other thing in my lifetime that happened was.
When I was a teenager, my parents would get the newspaper delivered.
Yeah.
And I would read the news in the morning.
Yeah.
Or when I was in my early twenties, I might read it in a cafe.
Yep.
While I was having a sun dried tomato fica.
Yeah.
You know, in the, in the naughties.
Oh man.
You took me back.
Yeah.
Oh, you, so I'd read, you're triggering me with sun dried tomatoes right now.
I'd read, I'd read the paper in the morning.
Yeah.
And then forget about the news.
Have a great day.
Have a great Saturday night.
And this was pre, you know, wake up Sunday and then I might think about
the news again and read a paper again.
If I went to a cafe or whatever, or my parents got one delivered or whatever.
When it changed to having an iPhone in my pocket.
And if I wanted to, I could have Twitter.
Twitter or the news.
I mean, I reaction and reactivity.
Is Twitter.
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
And someone like Donald Trump comes along and is like, wow, here's this
reaction and reactivity machine.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna use it.
Mm-hmm.
And react and activity my way into power.
Yes.
And the ultimate troll.
Right?
Absolutely.
And, and it, and revealing in the process over the last 10 years, well,
he's done us all a favor in one sense because I, I think everyone it, I think
everyone is starting to realize that.
The attention mill and the reactive, the, you know, the
reactivity of the news cycle.
And then reacting to the reaction.
And then reacting to the reaction, to the reaction.
Like I think we're all starting to get a bit sick of that.
And there seems to be a little bit more appetite for like, not in all quarters,
but to try to, to, you know, try to change the conversation to like, okay,
but what should we do versus spending our.
Whole day, you know, getting wrapped around the axle of whatever the
latest stupid thing someone said, and that it's also a terrible way
to govern, so to govern by reaction.
And that a lot of management that I've dealt with over the years will not
change policy, for sensible reasons, like internal pressure from their own people.
Like, Hey, this is what's happening.
This is what the policy should be.
Nope.
But one phone call, one angry phone call from a, stakeholder
and there's a policy change that's reactivity, so from management.
So they're terrified of, you know, this thing happens, so let's change
everything to avoid that thing happening again, rather than what's
the, what's the reality that we want to.
Try and help shape here.
What's the positive version?
And so I will say controlling the media diet is a, is a sensible policy.
And in your case, you've had to control it more than most would
for the sake of health and sanity.
And so continue doing that.
But you know, in wellbeing, we'll talk about risk factors and protective factors.
So yeah, cut down those risk factors.
Sure.
But what are the protective factors, right?
What are the things that are gonna give you.
The stomach and the ability to withstand the stuff that does get in.
You have to address that side of the equation as well.
what, in your case, you've been able to increase those protective
factors as well over time, so you.
The ability to manage your sanity is not just based entirely on avoiding the things
that are No, I think that, meditation has been a huge one for me and in the Buddhist
sense to be a good practicing Buddhist.
My understanding is we don't react.
We respond.
Yeah.
So we absorb.
So I have to be willing to absorb.
It's something scary that someone says, so if I get to work and someone says, oh,
do you hear what Trump did last night?
I'll be like, what's this the end of the world?
Yeah.
And then I have to go away in my own time and talk to chat GPT and
what's, what did Trump do yesterday?
And it's 'cause stuff will get in even with a complete lockdown
on news media, which I have.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like we cannot, we cannot make the environment 100% safe.
We can't do it.
No.
And I.
I, I don't want to be putting my head in the sand, but I'm not, because when
I take my time and I reflect mm-hmm.
I do ask questions about Gaza.
I do ask questions about Ukraine.
I do ask questions about climate, but it's a conversation between me and AI and.
I, you know, I also, the other thing I tried to do before I went to a full media
plan was to have a couple of bloggers.
And that went really sour on me as well.
Yeah.
Like I was following Noah Smith and then he started predicting
terrifying things around China, and then I was losing sleep over that.
And yeah, I think that he's not a foreign policy expert, but
he's just a very engaging writer.
Yes.
I thought I could just have one person who was what?
It's almost like there's one person, he's reading all the news, he's
telling me what I need to know.
And that's how he markets himself.
And he is Yes.
You know, making millions doing it.
Yes, that's right.
Uh, but in the end, that's a really, that is worse.
It's worse than the New York Times because, Hey, and look, I actually not
against that idea in, in general, like, I think a handful of trusted voices.
Yeah, a handful.
Yeah.
As a conduit is actually probably a, a really good,
really good way to go about it.
And it's kind of what I do.
I have a handful of trusted, people that I listen to.
Uh.
but also those people are a gateway to other trusted people, and so it's
an, it's an information network.
I've noticed with you, you maintain a level head, like mm-hmm.
And you go deep into stuff.
I do.
Yeah.
Like we were talking about.
Uh, Russia, Ukraine in the group chat a couple of months ago.
Yeah.
And you were able to give me, as you said, probably like an undergraduate level.
Mm-hmm.
Russia expert understanding from the just sheer amount of stuff you somehow absorbed
while doing domestic tasks and whatever you do, you know, working a full-time job,
you seem to have hoovered up incredible amount of information about Russia,
Ukraine, but you've never once said to me.
Oh, I'm really scared or whatever.
It's really no.
Triggered me and I've lost heaps of sleep and I'm reacting
to it in this sickening way.
And well, I've got good news for you in the sense that I, I, I do actually, I
don't wanna leave you on a rock feeling like you're the only one worried about it.
Right.
So there are times when it has worried me, and one of those things
was, you know, Trump's reelection.
But of course, I went back to the fundamentals in my analysis, which were.
That the act, you know, you listen to the experts on the conflict and they'll
tell you that Trump's reelection, they'll tell they'd told you this back in
October or September last year, that his reelection is not gonna solve anything for
Russia because the fundamental problems they're facing are far too difficult.
They're not gonna be able to get themselves out of this mess just because,
best even if every single thing they ever dreamed Trump might be able to do.
to make their lives easier.
Even if all of that happened, they would still be in a very difficult position and
would have to negotiate sooner or later.
So that's the good news.
But there was, for about a month there, I steered away from it and I
had this sick feeling that like it was gonna go off the rails again.
But no.
So where my, where my feelings are at.
About that conflict is that I feel sad about it.
and I feel a natural level of concern and I'm quite, I'm, uh, I'm
sad for the suffering of the, the average person on both sides of that
conflict, but I'm fairly morally clear about who's in the wrong.
Overall, and there have been some irresponsible actors on both sides, but
there is a clear aggressor and there's a clear party that needs to defend itself.
And I'm confident that they're gonna be able to do that.
And the fear scenario, what we've seen again and again and again,
the red lines that Putin has drawn, have been stepped over without.
Any meaningful response and Yeah, I mean, I think that it's
a paper tiger at this point.
When I thought that Putin was gonna blow up the world, or my mind
was telling me, yeah, I've got.
It's worth remembering that I have bipolar disorder.
Yes.
It's, it's worth remembering.
Yes.
And I get apocalyptic visions just for fun, you know?
Yes.
And even if there wasn't Russia going on, no.
Yeah.
It'd still be meteors and whatever.
Yeah.
If I, if I can do asteroids.
Yeah.
And.
I can do volcanoes, then I can easily do nuclear war.
That's right.
And when I was in it and it was bad, I was reading The Economist at the time.
Mm-hmm.
And someone said to me, an old friend said, it's like it's you and some
people in Montana who were convinced that the world's about to blow up.
Yeah.
Like, which was probably helpful.
It was helpful.
Yeah.
But so, so, 'cause that's the other way with.
To respond rather than react.
Mm-hmm.
Is to become an ex subject matter expert.
Yes.
So you can read everything on something.
Yes.
And by the time you read everything mm-hmm.
You'll usually calm down.
Yes.
As opposed to a headline.
Mm-hmm.
Or a tweet.
Yes.
And those click bait headlines.
you know, planet killing asteroid headed towards Earth.
The point is you click on the article, and the article reassures you.
Yes.
And then you have this emotional reaction, which is, yeah.
Oh, thank you.
Guardian.
Yeah.
Oh, what's this button?
Donate?
Mm-hmm.
Oh, great.
I'll donate.
Thanks for calming me down.
It's like, no, no.
The guardian triggered you, the fireman who comes Yeah.
Yeah.
The arsonist who comes back as a fireman.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
No, it's, it's abusive.
Right?
Tr.
Yeah.
Clickbait headlines are followed by articles which calm you down.
Yes.
Or reading thousands of articles like you did.
Mm-hmm.
PO listening to podcasts Yeah.
Will eventually calm you down because mm-hmm.
Behind the latest statement or, uh, maneuver or whatever
is long term strategy.
Yes.
There's a long term strategy of Russia.
There's a long term strategy of the us, same with China, and those things actually
move a lot more slowly than the latest.
Headlines.
Yes, that's right.
So that, that's the really key thing.
When you, you listen to the sort of the academics who study
this stuff for a living and you know, they've got a steady job.
They're not reliant on a monetized audience.
Yeah.
And they're not, they're not captured by a particular discourse.
They might have their biases, but the overall, they are nerds
who wanna understand something.
And those are the people to listen to and have that same mentality of going
from, Uh, like, and this, this applies to all the things in my life that have
triggered me over the years and that I've had to learn, oh, if something's worrying
me, I need to direct my attention to it.
But also find out what's beneath, like what's causing the worry?
What is it about this particular topic?
That is bringing this out in me.
What's that?
What's the layer beneath that?
Yeah.
What, what, yeah.
And so for, so for me, for me, three years ago, there was more work to do in therapy.
Yeah.
About understanding what I didn't get from my childhood.
Mm-hmm.
Which I needed to get.
Yes.
And that meant that.
While other people might be a little bit worried about a war in Eastern Europe.
Yeah.
I was convinced we were all going to die.
Yes.
So the problem was in me.
Yes it was.
It was always there was this.
Thing in me that triggered is a perfect word for it.
Mm-hmm.
I get triggered and then I spiral.
Yeah.
And then I can't stop seeing these apocalyptic visions.
Mm-hmm.
And then I'm distracted from my daily life.
Yes.
And that's, yeah.
Why I think I ended up coming around to this media blackout thing is like mm-hmm.
I'm now, you know, being good dad doing some good work in mental health.
I am able to, in my sphere of influence, be a positive person.
If I'm not distracted Yes.
But if I'm distracted, if I'm down some rabbit hole buried in the phone.
Yeah.
Like I'm buried in the phone enough already.
Yeah, yeah.
You're not there for the people that Yeah.
I'm suddenly, I'm just distracted from my own life.
Mm-hmm.
That's that.
That's right.
Adam's pointed this out to me so many times and uh, and what is the purpose?
Your, what is your purpose in being really interested in this thing and
building these castles in the air?
What's your purpose?
What, yeah, what's that?
What's that getting you away from when I realized you'd become a
Russia expert, I thought, well, Sam's obviously got other things
going on in his life that he's Yeah.
Distracting himself from.
Well, one of the, one of the genuine reasons was.
Is this going to be a huge problem that will come home to me?
like there was a genuinely, like I needed to address that question.
but also as always, there's always something quite personal and yes,
it's engaging and yes, it takes me away from other concerns.
Sure.
Uh, but I think that I'd always had this enduring.
Fascination with Russia, the Soviet Union, and you know, czars Russia before that.
And I was interested in the way the psychology of the way we
talk about that country and.
that form of territory and what the Soviet Union represented in people's
minds and you know, sort of fears and fantasies people project onto it.
Yeah.
So I felt like it was this really fertile psychoanalytical territory and there
are people that talk about the sort of psychology of how we think about
Russia and yeah, it because it is like we simultaneously sort of feel this
pity and contempt, but also this fear you know that they built these cannons
down in Hobart back in 1890 'cause they were worried about the Russians.
You know?
Yeah.
It's like, it's this thing that goes back.
The Russians have been a problem for a long time.
They've really been this useful monster as well.
Yeah.
Yes.
But see, when I.
I never really thought about Putin as a person.
He was just someone whose photos would appear in the Economist and he was making
terrifying threats towards the west.
Yes.
And then he did that interview with Tucker Carlson.
Yeah.
And I was like, oh, he is actually pretty funny.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh no, no.
He is got some witch.
And I was like, and he's also a human.
Much as opposed to he'd become like a, a bit like a Satan type figure.
Oh, absolutely.
No, in my in, I'm not saying in a supernatural monster, someone
monster, someone dumber than me.
I'm saying in my mind, no, of course.
Come like a supernatural.
Yeah, like Satan type.
He's gonna be the last thing we all see on our TV screen.
That's right Before we all die.
I think you were, you were very primed to accept.
The, the subtle and not so subtle ways that he's been
animated as that sort of figure.
Yeah.
And that, that's serving very useful purposes.
Be for, for one, that people aren't wrong when they say,
you know, he's a thug and a.
Uh, mafioso, you know, like all of that's true, but it's a great way to
make some other thing look better.
Some other thing that, like western capitalism.
Yes.
Some other thing that ought to be staunchly critiqued.
The, it's, it's this, it's this, uh, perverted, cracked, uh, darkened
mirror that, that we look into.
And what I learned about how the West has fantasized and and nightmare about
Russia helped me to understand a lot more about human psychology in general
and how we like build up these things in our mind, that we project things onto.
Uh, we, we make things the.
The scapegoat.
We make people a scapegoat.
we project the things we hate about our most hate about ourselves.
We project onto a very selected other.
Yeah.
And so for, for incel.
Women become the, yeah, the source and target of all that is evil.
And all they despise about themselves is put onto women for white supremacists.
They can put all their fears and fantasies onto the colored other,
and we're all, we're all doing this process until we become aware of it.
And this is a very Buddhist type thing.
You know what you're gonna put on the other, it's, you know,
you gotta say to yourself, oh.
I know they are, but what am I?
Yeah, what is the what?
What am I actually saying about myself with all this stuff that I'm, yeah.
Putting onto people with this stuff I'm worrying about learn about yourself.
And that's what I eventually realized, that like it's my study in this area
had just pointed, pointed back to, Yeah.
What sort of problem are we trying to ignore?
What sort of blame are we trying to deflect?
What, what sort of self-critique are we trying to avoid here?
Yeah.
I, I think that it took me five years in therapy to realize that,
there was always gonna be another.
Thing to be scared of.
Yes.
And it was very clear.
Mm-hmm.
'cause my fears are so vivid.
Yeah.
That it was climate change when I went in there.
Yeah.
And then COVID started, then it was COVID for a while, and then, yeah.
Ukraine War started, so then it was Ukraine War, and then I kind of released
it and the next one was gonna be ai.
That's definitely the next one.
Yes.
Um, very easy to project anything you want onto that.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, but I stopped short of AI and, and sort of spun around a 180
and thought, I actually find this really good and really helpful, and I
think it could really help humanity.
So I started reading a Doom, a book, and I thought.
I'm not gonna become a DOR about it.
If it wipes me out, it wipes me out.
I haven't found the domer side of it as convincing as I might have.
and maybe that's because I am better at managing fears and
deconstructing the fears that I have.
Yeah.
You are also good at understanding tech, which I'm not.
I can, I can say.
With my undergraduate creative arts background, I can have a
literate conversation with chat GPT that I find deeply satisfying.
Mm.
And that is tech that I like, whereas Yeah.
Yeah.
Like code or whatever.
I was never gonna come at code, so suddenly cutting Edge Tech has come into
my language and I like it, you know?
Well, well, it can also help you to understand code.
If you want.
Um, I don't want, well, you know, we can, you can, you can, you
can ask it to write some for you.
But, but I think that, I did the work in therapy and I'm, I wanna pause at
the moment and I might go back, but I.
I think I was able to see that.
The one thing I couldn't admit to myself was that despite their best efforts, my
parents didn't give me the emotional Yeah.
Stability and nourishment that I needed.
Yes.
And they also put me down at times.
Mm-hmm.
And I came into adulthood with this gaping fucking wound inside me.
Mm-hmm.
And that can be filled.
Mm-hmm.
With a Putin or So we talk about reaction and reactivity.
Yeah.
It's What are you carrying around before the thing happens?
Well, that's, you know, before you see the headlines Yes.
Or whatever.
That's right.
What are you, what, and that's where meditation comes in for me.
Mm-hmm.
Is I stabilize myself every day so that when those bad moments happen mm-hmm.
Or like I've had scares with my kids' health and stuff like that.
Yeah.
When the shit goes down, I find myself to be quite calm actually.
Yes.
Like when it's time to take a kid to the hospital, I'm calm and focused and clear.
Uh, and what's the difference between those two things?
You know, you can think about that, that the media or the asteroid or whatever you,
you can't do much about, but, well, no, and sometimes in a emergency there might
not be much you can do, but I don't know.
It's direct and you are there and someone's counting on you and.
Yeah.
I think a lot of reactivity initially in my life came from a fear of death.
Yeah.
And therapy's done enough work that that's diminished.
And it's something you said on the show was a fear of death is
really a fear of a life wasted.
Yes.
And I think when I was around getting minimal work in the film industry Yeah.
And then when I did the work, it was meaningless to me.
I had a lot of fear of death that I, that's gonna do it now that I rock
up five days a week in public mental health and the work is meaningful.
That fear is not, it's just not there in the same way.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
That, that, yeah.
I've gotta say that was a big help for me to, to, you know, be
able to say most days at least.
Uh, well, I mean, I don't know how good of a job I did, but I mean, I made an effort.
Yeah.
I feel like I've earned my keep Yeah.
With the world, you know?
Yeah.
That's what I'm doing at the moment.
Yeah.
And I'm, yeah.
I've still got plenty of struggles when I felt useless.
Yeah.
To myself and to humanity.
Then I fear death.
I mean, anxiety could, was inescapable.
Yeah.
You know, and like, yeah, someone gave me that advice years ago and it took
a little while to put it into action.
But you know, I've said this before on here, it was Marni,
my dad's old girlfriend.
She said, you know, you're happiest when you've got something
to do and or you know, when you're focusing on someone else.
Yeah.
Uh, for a minute, you know, and you get outta your own mess.
Yeah.
You, you feel a lot better.
Yeah.
And like do stuff for other people, you know?
Yeah.
And I'm like, yeah.
And that's what Sure.
That's what, um, addiction recovery, the stuff that I've done the last
10 years is all based on that.
Mm-hmm.
Getting outta self, being there for other people.
Yeah.
That's right.
That's, that's how it works.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Like, that's, that's it.
Take someone who's, you know, to use your phrase, wrapped
around the axle of their own ego.
And it says, why don't you go and help that other person?
They need help too.
Yeah.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
And that's, that's one of the main principles of that addiction
recovery work that I've done.
but I wanted to talk about when she mentioned, when Liv mentioned reaction
and reactivity being triggered.
Yeah.
It did made me think of an exchange we had about a year ago about Gaza.
Mm-hmm.
Where I feel like you got react.
Oh, sure.
Reactive and ended up calling me a cunt.
Yes, I did.
Which probably in the 25 years we've known each other is the
only time you've called me a cunt.
Oh, really?
I think so.
Probably behind my back.
You've done it more often?
No.
No, not, no, no, no.
Um, and I think that in the last two years, yeah, understandably,
that's been the number one mm-hmm.
Reactivity issue in the world.
Like everyone.
Yeah.
It's almost like there's no neutrals, like everyone is.
Hmm.
Thrown into a camp and everyone has a reaction and, well, it's funny
you should say neutral, because there was this directive from the
minister oh, I can't remember exactly.
It was a few months after October and the, might have been January, and
uh, we're just going back to school and there was this ministerial.
I dunno if it was an order or, anyway, it was this real cowardly document
that was forwarded by the principal to staff saying, uh, when this topic
comes up, you know, remember that there's a requirement to be neutral.
so I went and looked all that up and I found that, oh yeah, okay, teachers can't.
Lobby in their capacity as teacher on behalf of a political party.
Okay, sure.
Makes sense.
And that's coming from the state of Victoria.
So when there's a state election in particular, you know, you can't advocate
for a side in your capacity as a teacher.
Right?
okay.
Fair enough.
And when it comes to federal elections, the same thing sort of applies, but
it's not coming so directly from the State Department, uh, of education.
but certainly was it Morrison or was it Abbott or someone who was like.
Basically kind of made a veil threat at some point that we are gonna go after.
Any teachers that, criticize us, they, they, I don't think they did in the
end, but like they tried to put some chilling effect on speech, which was
what this ministerial order was about, uh, about being neutral on this topic.
and I got really this really.
It got to me, in a number of ways.
One was that I had students that wanted to talk about it, that were worried,
that were angry, that were, were, they were experiencing grief and feelings
of horror, all of which is normal.
And I found myself feeling unsafe and unable to.
Know how to respond when it came up, and that I felt unable to just
respond as a human to it, and that I felt a need to kind of move on.
and part of that was a, yeah, a fear of to do with, you know, employment
because it was not clear from what the minister had said, or the
departmental secretary or something.
It was maybe not the minister.
It came from a public servant, not a politician.
That was, that was one of the things about it, that it was not clear from
it what neutrality was and what the process would be if someone was said
to be in breach of that neutrality.
And so I asked the powers that the he in my school, I said, okay.
Well, it'd be great to have a working definition of what a
neutral position is on this topic.
If someone could tell me that.
Now, this sounds like a real smart ass thing to say and it is, but
that was after I tried asking the question 20 or 30 different ways
in draft emails and I, I started.
Laying out, various scenarios and saying, what do you do here?
What do you do here?
then I eventually just realized, no, it just comes down to one
really difficult problem, which no one will have an answer for.
What is neutrality when it comes to this?
So would it, is it neutral to allow the facts themselves to be discussed?
Right?
What if the facts make one party look worse than another?
Then what does neutrality require of us?
Then should we find ways to present the facts that make it seem more even?
Is that what neutrality is or is a neutral position?
In fact one that just says, well, I don't personally know,
every last thing about this.
But I might take some direction from the ICJI might take some direction from the
experts, who seem to be saying that it looks like this, it seems to walk like
a duck, quack, like a duck, et cetera.
It, it, yes.
And then feelings of, so just on a personal reaction, a personal reaction
level, like quite aside from, you know.
The whole politics of how I talk about it, especially in a workplace,
just personal feelings of, you know, especially you walk around this part of
town, there's a lot of posters and, um, murals and things, that I've, you know,
definitely taking a certain position.
And there's one, heart of my Heart and the, the grandpas
holding his granddaughter.
well, her lifeless body, and
I've come across that one a few times and
I'm grateful.
I'm grateful to the person who made that poster for at least one reason,
which is it really, it got me out of a funk one day when I saw it.
I know that's a strange thing to say.
I was feeling sorry for myself, and when I saw that, it just got me out of it.
I was like, no, other people are objectively suffering much worse,
and I need to remember that.
Mm.
And it really focused me on.
Every time I think about the children there, it focuses me
on how my children need me.
so that's one good thing that's come out of it.
But I, my soul will not be at rest until.
Something improves dramatically.
this is not like other things where, you know, where I would get triggered
by things, you know, Howard or Abbott did, or I would get triggered by right
wing discourse on the internet, or you know, triggered by some dumb ass piece
of economic analysis in the Fairfax press where I feel like I need to like.
Get on YouTube and record a take down and exert some sort of control over this,
this situation and, you know, get my ego involved and like, try and set the
record straight and bring some justice to the world and position myself as a, as
a hero and a, yeah, it's not like, yeah.
Mid-teens q and a where it's all kind of fun and yeah.
Politics club for smart, snotty little kids.
Yeah.
Can you get your, uh.
Tweet written out on, can you get your zinger in there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Can I, can you get your tweets shown on the screen of q and a in 2012 or whatever?
Fuck it was.
Totally.
Can I, can I be the one with With the most ringing, poetic critique of
the liberal party, like, you know.
Yeah, no, no, it's not like that.
It's life and death and it's, yeah.
You know, the Middle East.
Is anyone neutral in the Middle East?
I don't like, uh, well, that's, well, that's right.
Like, can anyone be neutral over this issue?
I, well, I'm not proposing that we talk about it in depth, Sam, I'm just saying.
I was like, well, I'm just glad I got that off my chest anyway.
Yeah.
No, very well said.
And I, I don't want to talk about it in depth, but it mm-hmm.
It, it made me realize that sometimes it's better just to shut the fuck up, you know?
Yeah.
Because like, I, I, I don't want to get into what about is.
I don't wanna say, or how far in back in history do you want to go?
What I can say with confidence is I'm not a subject matter e expert on this.
Mm.
well, I don't think you need to be I'm No, no.
But, but, but I, I, for the same reasons that I can't stare into
the void of Ukraine, I can't stare into the void of Gaza.
Mm-hmm.
And then still function and be there for Yeah.
My kids who are living a much more privileged life in a, in much more safety.
I can't sort of do both.
I can't stare into the fucking void of war.
Yeah.
And then still, and I do, maybe it sounds like a cop out, but I
do think this bipolar thing that's rattling around in my brain.
Yeah.
Doesn't make it super easy.
No, no, no.
Like, I think for that reason, I couldn't actually be a, mm-hmm.
Head of state or whatever, you know?
I couldn't actually have agency in any of this stuff because I
am unstable inherently, you know?
Well, there were, I think I've, I vaguely recall coming across.
That there were people with bipolar in, in high positions.
In Churchill.
Yeah.
In, yeah.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
I, that's why Churchill would come in during the middle of World War II
and have a long Bath and not start his day till 3:00 PM and Right.
He had to get himself quiet, drink a lot of gin, and Yeah.
Yeah.
He was just fucked in the morning.
I'm fucked in the mornings too.
Yeah, yeah.
I can imagine.
anyway.
Well, yeah.
Well, but what I was, what I was gonna say is that the.
I think what I, yeah, what I was gonna say is I think that one gets to
you in a way that you can't just be emotionally dispassionate about No.
No.
So you, you're not, it's not possible for you to not react, you know?
No, that's right.
Like to whatever.
To the latest horror.
Yeah.
Or to me.
Yeah.
Maybe making some flippant comments or some provocative comments.
Whatever I was saying at the time.
No, it was more just that you were quoting certain.
People.
Douglas Murray, for example, and I was just like, Douglas Murray on, on Gaza.
Not useful.
Douglas Murray on Ukraine.
Very useful.
It's, it's weird.
Yeah, that guy, like, on that one, I mean, it's not weird.
I, I can't explain it, but, So there's a protect, there's a self-protection
thing also that comes in, like when you were talking before about not being a
subject matter expert, but like, it made me think of, um, the way certain people
reacted to Sandy Hook, for example.
Mm-hmm.
That there is this disbelief, which is I think a very sane response.
Right?
Who would want to believe that someone did this?
Yeah.
And that had happened and some of Alex Jones' listeners were all too ready for
ideological reasons to grasp at some way.
To deny or yeah, to change the narrative.
Right.
And this is something I've studied in depth, because there is something I
find very fascinating about denial.
'cause I've done a lot of it myself, right?
And so it is interesting to look at it in others.
With a different ideological position to your own, to, to sort
of perhaps try to understand your own blind spots a bit better.
but what I eventually learned about some of the most staunch Sandy Hook
Denialists was there was, there was an emotional problem at the bottom of it.
That it actually wasn't so much coming from a commitment to like.
Gun anarchy that some of them seem to have like sort of absolute right to have
any amount of guns of any description.
It wasn't, I don't think that was really what was driving it.
There were two more simple fears the, the most obvious one being.
The fear that it actually happened, the fear that the world could be so horrible
and that such a random thing could happen and that not much could be done about it.
That's a deep fear.
Now, as it turns out, an awful lot can be done.
Separate topic though.
But the other fear that was driving it was not so much about disarmament, but that.
Someone's trying to control my thoughts through this event,
through this fake event.
So those were kind of the two main fears they had.
But there was this one woman who eventually went so far off the rails
with this thing that she was, you know, stalking some of the family members
and was, you know, trying to reveal the truth and like, you know, going
through their mail and just like.
Like really off the rails and blogging and you know, just making
a complete asshole of herself.
And, uh, some men as well, obviously.
But there was a curious thing that happened in her case where she clearly,
she was very, extremely triggered by this whole thing and was extremely
triggered by Alex Jones' coverage of it, which is designed to do what
you were saying about the Guardian or the economist freak you out.
And then sort of provide some sort of reassurance based around Yeah.
And then you go, ah, thank you.
But you have to put all your trust and faith and money in in me, and
then you'll continue to feel safe.
But I'll continue to freak you out and make you feel helpless.
And, but people, it'll be this abusive relationship, but people read The Guardian
because they want to feel something.
Oh, you reckon they're going there for a trigger?
Like they're numb for a jolt.
They're numb.
People are numb.
Like, yeah.
Their lives aren't so bad.
So that, so that apocalyptic guardian alert, almost people love it.
I almost felt something sitting in the office.
Yeah.
10 30 in the morning.
Oh, I see that.
Oh, existential dread.
Okay.
So I won't have to do that project this afternoon.
Oh man.
Wouldn't it be great if, yeah.
Yeah.
That everything just got called off.
That's the whole stick.
That's the Yeah, it's, it's, but sorry for me, I'm, no, I'm not, I'm not numb.
No, no.
And neither are you.
And I think, I think around this topic, you know, you fair
enough to react and be angry.
Yeah.
Like, and, and fair enough.
If you want to react and be angry every day, and if you've
got the emotional capacity to.
Stare into it and engage with it and read Douglas Murray and read fucking I know.
Well, there's also whoever else you want to read.
Well, there's also just I, but I, I won't be, fundamentally, there's
a guilt that my children are safe.
But your kids weren't born in the Middle East.
Ah, but that's, that's not good enough.
Like, but so historically they were always more, much more likely to be safe, right?
Yes.
Than to be born in that part of the world.
Yes.
I guess that's how I think about the thing in my head.
Sure.
It's like.
You know.
No, but, but, but the, I know, I understand that, that that would apply
more to like, same as in Eastern Europe.
Sure.
You wouldn't necessarily pick Eastern Europe as the safest place to be born.
No.
And you wouldn't pick the Middle East.
So, so in a way the, it's reassuring to me as a catastrophes, because the, yeah.
Okay.
The places where the bad things are happening are the most
unstable and historically.
Violent places.
Yeah, I understand.
But, but the, there are very, very direct causes that have to
do with direct choices made by.
You know, countries that you and I are notionally citizens
of or in an alliance with.
So it is, it is a matter of some importance to us, even if we don't have
a particular emotional attachment or not.
Oh yeah.
But no, you were talking about kids safety though.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm talking about just in terms of kids' safety.
Oh, well, no, yeah, no, I understand.
And.
But again, that longer term, if this sort of thing is, is tolerated to any extent,
it, it actually makes everyone less safe.
Like, I mean, that's one of the clear conclusions.
but when it, so back to the Sandy Hook woman for a minute that she faced,
she ended up facing some facts that almost broke her, like once she.
Certain things she'd been clinging to that No, that proved that.
Proved that.
I'm not wrong.
She had a couple of things basically.
Unavoidably disprove, uh, yeah.
Her commitment to the, to the denial.
And she, but are you putting me in the category of Sandy Hook woman?
No, no, no, no, no.
Because I don't think I've ever denied the horrors of No Gaza.
No, no, no.
And you've not been going outta your way to, you know, uh, be a nuisance over it.
But no, I'm not putting you in that category.
No, but she, I was more just fascinated by.
On a very personal basis, fascinated by the story of a person being so
resolutely committed to a story and finding things that justifies it.
And yes, this is ringing for me because, you know, and we've all done
this and eventually it coming apart.
And what people are normally able to do in that circumstance is.
Kind of move on and forget that they ever had the other position.
Right.
Yeah.
We change our minds and then we sort of the scar heels over.
Yeah.
Uh, in her case though, she was on the record, right.
And it was very difficult for her to move on.
I mean, Pauline Hansen did it though.
Someone said, Hey, didn't you used to hate Asians instead of Muslims?
And she's like, no, I never hated.
Oh, Trump does it every day.
It's just gone.
Trump does it every day.
Yeah.
Anything that I like.
Yeah.
I'll, uh, wasn't he gonna have the Ukraine War sorted before he was inaugurated?
Yeah, absolutely.
Weren't you gonna do that?
Yeah.
No, I never said that.
No, I never said that once.
The most powerful person, this guy you were digging up the other day.
What about him?
I don't even know him.
Yeah.
And once the most powerful, powerful person in the world is
just openly doing that, yeah.
It gives us all permission just to be complete.
Just to disavow everything.
Yeah, but actually it does the opposite, Sam.
It creates a responsibility to live with more integrity.
I think it does.
It invites us to ask to just not be like that.
You don't like Donald Trump?
Yes.
Okay.
Well, don't be like him.
We, and be honest.
Speak the truth.
And even if we like his politics, we have to admit this is a shameful way to act.
And I would hate to actually.
I conduct myself in that way.
I would feel a lot of shame even, even if I thought he was
doing good things and yeah.
And so for this poor old, this, I will say I feel a lot of pity for this Sandy
Hook woman that she, was faced with.
If she admitted to herself what was going on, she would feel
like an unforgivable monster.
Yeah.
And I think there was something in that for me that.
in our efforts to create emotional safety for ourselves, we can go too
far out of our way and then we can end up with a sort of a moral or emotional
debt that has to be paid later.
Oh, so you're saying that that's where I ended up by saying, oh look, you
know, there was a massive terrorist attack on Israel and that maybe I was
kicked off this round of violence.
And what I get frustrated is.
That, that what I see is the left not acknowledging that that big
terrorist attack happened before getting onto the absolute valid.
See, I see, I see absolutely valid criticisms of the absolute horrors
that Israel is doing in Palestine.
But I was like, but what about did I not, it was, honestly, that was
my reaction was like, did I not see this massive terrorist attack?
Like did they, were they flying into a rave with a Joe?
You know what, you, you've actually made a really good point here, so.
This was something, this reminded me of something I wanted to say before.
So I'm not sure what got me onto her other than just this desire to create
emotional safety, this sane desire to, yeah, deny something horrible.
Uh, which is certainly something that's happened in my life with some often just
very personal things like deny certain realities, like, oh, mom's gonna die.
Or, you know, deny, you know, that, that.
Or when the, when the kids are sick, I might put my head in the sand and
go, oh, they'll be fine when, you know, um, you know, shit like that.
or I might ignore a credit card bill or whatever, you know?
Sure.
Like, we all do this.
And so there's something about that that I find fascinating and
I, but, but it was also, yes.
I guess subconsciously I was thinking about your response to
it, but I wanna say this, that.
I've studied Alex Jones and his methods such as they are to try and understand
what's going on there and with his people and his role in the ecosystem.
And I'm interested in conspiracies and fantasies and nightmares and all of that.
But I think that by, we should rightly demonize Alex Jones, not
just as a bad person, but like.
On his own terms, but as someone who's actually injuring his own audience, right?
And all of that's true, but it might conceal or mitigate the same abusive
practices happening by so-called legitimate respectable outlets who.
Have basically done a sandy hook on Gaza to a degree.
Look over here.
That's not happening because, yeah, so if you wanted, if a person wanted to
avail themselves of a framing where there was a moral equivalence, guess what?
There's two years of media coverage encouraging you to do just that.
It's all there.
And it's only recently that the dam has started to show some cracks.
Ah, well, an elbow saying that.
Oh, it's, it's not acceptable.
I think Yeah.
There's a body count of a thousand on one side to start off.
Just bear with me.
Right.
And then the response to that gets to a body count of a thousand.
Right.
That might be model moral equivalence.
Yeah.
But say you're a little bit racist and you decide that one group is
not as worth, their lives aren't worthy as worthy as the other group.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
So say they killed 10,000 people in response to losing
a thousand of their own.
Yeah.
N now even for a racist, you might be like, oh, okay, we're getting a little
bit beyond moral equivalence now.
Yeah.
So in something like, wherever that line is Gaza, you're up to like 60,000 after
800 were killed or something, right?
Yeah.
So I'm not claiming a moral equivalent.
You ca there, there, there might have been a point.
And I think that certainly the right wing media.
Want to keep it as a, a moral equivalence.
But it wasn't in my mind, well, my, no, no.
And maybe that position's evolved since we had our argument over a group chat.
I, I, I, I don't know.
well, my, my issue is I was just getting very frustrated because my position,
mm, better or worse, is that whole part of the world is fucking crazy.
Yeah.
They're crazy on both sides.
But that's, I don't support other sides.
I don't support nationalism.
No.
But that I don't support.
of course I don't support a, a terrorist organization.
I don't support a right wing government.
I don't support anyone.
But the problem, no, the yes, that, that's an argument that might apply
in a lot of cases, but in this one, it obscures certain basic
facts and it's designed to do that.
And I'm not saying you've chosen it for those reasons, but it's been
presented to you for those reasons.
And I don't just critique the right wing media when it comes to this.
I think that we were very much let down by the so-called liberal media as well,
and the corporate media in general, who have had a resolute determination
to misunderstand the basic facts of colonialism, et cetera, going on.
Because to do that wouldn't just threaten a particular.
Pillar of policy, it would actually invite further questions about
other places, and it opens up a whole can of worms that just.
A whole section of the media, best majority of it were not
willing to, to open that.
They weren't willing to be the person with their name to the
problem of opening that can of worms.
And then the part, but the part I reacted to in Melbourne was that for
a little while I was dating someone who was organizing the rallies.
Right.
Who was in the Socialist party.
Wow.
Okay.
And I reacted to the people I find the most annoying.
Sure.
Were incredibly pro Gaza.
So, yeah.
I'm sorry.
Incredibly pro humus and all of that.
Right.
So I'm reacting in Melbourne to my own cultural environment Yes.
Of like, who pisses me off, who annoys me, you know?
Yeah, no, I understand that.
And that's where I'm reacting, uh, as well.
But it's stupid.
It's a stupid reaction.
I, I, again, I, I.
I don't get any closer to really understanding it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, to some, to the people on the ground, it's, it's insulting to even Yeah.
React to, to the annoyance of, yeah.
To base our judgment of, of events elsewhere on how locals
around us are responding.
Yeah.
'cause someone puts on a headscarf and goes and gets a coffee in Northgate.
That annoys me.
Sure.
Right.
But it's, it's so silly compared to what's actually happening.
Well, and, and yeah, and, and potentially there are people
suffering who are innocent.
People who appreciate that person wearing their fucking heads scuffed
to get a coffee of Northgate.
I don't fucking know either way.
I find it annoying either way.
It's an ancient impulse to shoot the messenger.
And Yeah.
And I've certainly been guilty of it.
And, and this gets me to, you know, something that I haven't talked about in
relation to this topic that, for example.
20.
So kind of like the earliest story I can think of here about reactivity in me.
'cause we haven't, I haven't gone enough into personal examples.
I'm sitting there, it's maybe 2001.
I'm gonna see a psychologist at Melbourne Uni Counseling service, And in the waiting
room there's some magazines and there's.
skinny people on the cover.
Right.
And at the time I had a bit of an eating disorder and I've had on and off and
I was in a delicate state and I was feeling triggered by these covers.
I didn't have that language.
Right.
I was ahead of the curve.
I was triggered before it was cool.
Uh, no.
What I'm saying is I was sitting there thinking.
I really wish these magazines weren't here.
This is upsetting me.
and it's not wrong for me to want like a more diverse concept of beauty out there.
'cause I felt like the masculine beauty ideal didn't fit me.
I don't know if that was, if that was true or not, but I just felt like it,
you know, didn't fit me but this was like girls, not boys, on these magazines,
so like, Hey, I shouldn't be bothered.
Right?
But no, the sort of uneven culture of beauty, the way women are shown also
affects, the way I think about myself is, was a realization that I've had since.
And so I said to the counselor, oh, you know, maybe.
I don't know, maybe those magazines, you know, maybe there should be
different magazines in the waiting room.
You know, might, maybe you shouldn't.
There should be some more thought about the people that are
there waiting to see somebody.
And so you might say that there's a very, very early example of, I.
Trigger warning culture coming from me and me wanting to be a bit censorious.
Oh, psychologist would've loved that.
Yeah, I think she did find it.
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
So the magazine, Sam, yeah.
So tell me the magazines are the problem.
So before you got to the waiting room, you didn't have any problems.
And then you sat down and you saw the magazines and now I've got a problem.
You did this to me.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so it's not to say the world doesn't injure us.
Of course it does.
And we can try and solve that in a number of ways.
And, and we, we can try not to look at the wound and we can
try not to feel the feelings.
But I guess this is the, the hopeful and also, uh, well, maybe confronting thing
that I'd want to say about this, that.
Uh, you know, even though there were times I felt completely unable to look
at things and address the things I needed to address, but that nonetheless is where
we have to go, and that when triggers, when triggers happen for us, it's really
important information that we're getting and how we respond to that information.
It's not always easy to find the constructive way, immediately
have to allow ourselves.
To have a range of responses before we maybe try to get a bit of a
grip on it and go, okay, what, what's really happening here?
I was happy watching this show until that little thing happened,
and now I'm not happy, and now I'm thinking these thoughts is okay.
What's that pointing me to?
what am I trying to avoid?
And if I admit this thing that I'm trying to avoid, admitting.
Will I actually feel worse?
maybe I can do this.
Yeah, I was thinking of that before.
That's the other thing of like, okay.
To, to think it through a little bit.
What happens if I do get triggered?
Mm.
Is, it's so bad.
Mm-hmm.
I'll feel some anxiety for a while.
Yes.
I won't actually get blown up in, you know, yes.
In that instant.
That's right.
So can we trust ourselves to, yeah.
Just maybe just feel the fear for a moment.
Yeah.
Feel, yeah.
Spend, I don't know, maybe I could spend a whole day in fear and.
Yeah, I'd be distracted, but it wouldn't, maybe I'd have to take a day off work,
but would I be okay on the other side?
Like Yeah.
I still wouldn't actually have bombs raining down on me in Melbourne.
Yeah.
And I've gotten myself right side up before I can do it again.
Yeah.
So that's the other thing is yeah, the fear of fear.
Yes.
You know, big one.
Huge one.
Like the fear of fear.
So are you saying, what are you saying to me though, like that I should pay
more attention to Gaza and Ukraine?
No, not necessarily.
I.
And I should feel, I should be outraged and terrified and appalled and sad
and no, no for, well, for once this little, that little anecdote I offered.
No, it was entirely for me.
You know, I, I wasn't, I.
Offering.
Anyone else advice?
Yeah, it sounded like that.
Maybe, but I'm just renewing.
No, no.
I mean, I'm just, we've gotta wrap it up.
I'm just trying to tie together all the threads.
It seems like to me, you are someone who can look the world s
squarely in the eye most times.
Use your intellect to understand what you think's going on.
I think you have.
You often have an ideological bent, which is to the, to the left.
Yeah.
And you're, you're gonna trust left wing sources over, over
centrist or right wing sources.
Yeah.
So in a way, I can predict somewhat what your position on something's gonna be.
Yeah.
whereas I've retreated, I've said, no longer can I look the world squarely
in the eye and use my intellect to understand what's going on.
Mm.
In some cases, I'm gonna stick my head firmly in the sand and.
You know, apart from when I feel strong enough to check in with ai,
what the latest is, and I do do that.
Yeah.
Um, which, which I wanna say is, sounds good to me if it's working for you and
that it's not something I've tried yet, but I might and 'cause I'm still sort
of still quite happy with my process of like, you know, hand gathering and,
you know, that, you know, sort of, so, so, so it's a difference between.
The woman I was dating who was standing on Kulin Street shouting for a ceasefire.
Yeah.
And me asking cha, GPT, how do, how do we get a ceasefire in Gaza?
How is that likely to happen?
Yeah.
And it will go, Here's all the possible permutations.
Here's why it's so difficult.
Yeah.
Would you like to know more about Israeli politics or the US influence, or would
you And then I can go do a deep dive.
Yeah.
And, but I'm focusing in on how does this get resolved?
Not like what's the latest horror.
Yeah.
Because the horrors are unending.
Yes, that's right.
Um, and, and worsening.
So it's like.
the person who I was dating, who's standing on the streets shouting for a
ceasefire, potentially is doing something more useful than I am by looking up
how are we gonna get a ceasefire.
Mm-hmm.
But I would say it's pretty marginal the impact that person's having in Con Street.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where I became super cynical was like, yeah, like a rally in
Melbourne is, is not gonna influence the.
The Israeli government.
I'm sorry.
Like, oh, and look, can I, it's not, can I just say though, I can find
it very relatable, everything you're saying, even though my personal
response has been different, but I've reacted the same way to other things.
Yeah.
Let's say, well, I went to the Iraq War rallies, man, there was a million of us.
Yeah.
I know you've actually probably done, I've done more rallies.
I've done, I think you've put your body in it more than I have.
Yeah.
Yeah, I have.
Yeah.
And you know, we stopped the Jabal Luki Uranium Mine.
Yes.
We freed some refugees from ura.
Yes.
There were things I was involved in, and then I became cynical,
like I, like I became cynical about geopolitics and being on the streets.
I, I don't know.
I just don't think No, I, I understand.
And I just wanted to say this, like, in fairness to all that.
It's just not easy to live in a world where that's happening.
It's just life has been more difficult for everybody and just that little bit
less fun for everybody because of it.
And so I'll just say that from a purely selfish Yeah.
Uh, way.
And I'm not absolving everybody necessarily.
Yeah.
But like, I just wanna acknowledge it's not an easy thing to sit with.
And the people have found different ways to react to it and a lot of
it based on protecting their own feelings, which again, very normal.
And the seeing some futility in it is, well, it's not unfamiliar to you or
me from things, battles that were lost in the past, but as you pointed out,
there were some battles that were won.
And I've been thinking a lot as I know a lot of other people have
been thinking about this recently.
you know, anger's a defensive emotion.
We were talking about that just while we were on a pause in the recording here.
But there's another defensive emotion as well, which is cynicism.
you know, giving into that feeling of futility and it feels dangerous to
people at the moment to have any hope.
and me, uh, I know I've, I've had hopes disappointed in the past, and I know the
risks, but I keep, I continue to hope.
It reminds me of the friends of my parents, the Marxist, who always
predicted the revolution was gonna happen in the next decade.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Ever hopeful for the, yeah, for the great calamity that would bring it all happen.
Yes, exactly.
Waiting for that.
The sixties and the seventies and the eighties and the nineties.
Paris 68.
It's about to happen again.
Yeah.
It reminds me of, of them, I, I don't know, like I think
we were saying are fair.
I think some things maybe that I'd have to make you angry.
Maybe they could just make you sad.
Yeah.
No, and that's, and that's where I was gonna land.
And to be fair, I'll be honest, I, I, I've been so aghast at
the Middle East that I haven't.
Even allowed the sadness to really get in.
Oh, well, yeah.
No.
You know, I haven't, I haven't.
I realized the same thing.
I was trying not to let the sadness get in and yeah, I haven't
felt the anger really either.
Yeah.
Or the sadness.
I've just kind of gone, wow, that's a crazy part of the world.
I'm glad I don't live there.
And I think what made, which is not how I was raised.
That's what I think probably a lot of Australians do.
Maybe the average Australian does that, about that.
Yes.
Uh, and I've become a lot more like the average Australian.
Mm-hmm.
I make a bit less than the average Australian.
Anyway.
That up?
No.
In certain ways.
Yeah.
No, no.
I make less money.
I looked it up the other day than the average, than the average Australian.
Certainly make a lot less than those tradies I see every morning in less than
the average, average employee austral.
Anyway, that's a sidetrack.
which should be triggering to you.
I've taken that, I've taken that general like, wow, what a crazy part of the world.
Who the fuck knows what's going on.
Mm.
Who knows what side to take.
It's sad, but I'm going to just ignore it.
Yeah.
That's what I've pretty much done where Yeah.
But I've been around people like that woman I was dating who are
deep, deep into it and on the streets and shouting into father and Yeah.
so I, it's, I've been exposed to it.
Isn't that interesting?
Like I, yeah.
Even without wanting to, I've been right up against people organizing
rallies and people like, uh.
People who you might say have something in common with your parents.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
At a younger age in the way I was raised and yeah.
yeah.
So David, you know, I'm, yeah.
Defying my, my upbringing, but I'm glad we've been able to talk about
it today because it is something that's very hard to talk about.
But when Liv mentioned reaction and reactivity, I did think about you calling
me cunt, and I thought, fair enough.
And I don't think there's any other issue that quite gets the level of reaction
or reactivity going as the war in Gaza.
No.
And maybe just before that trans, you know.
Yeah.
Some of the trans discourse has really made me mad.
and yes, on a particular side, uh, and I've got my criticisms of some of
the discourse on the other side, but nothing that compares with the absolute.
Either knowing fascist baiting or unknowing fascist baiting,
I don't know which is worse.
and certain kinds of speech which has led directly to harms, not just theoretically.
Hang on, we, we are finishing the show.
We opening up a trans Well, no, no.
I just wanted to point out that before Garza came along, maybe
that was the thing that we most occasionally came to loggerheads about.
oh, me and you?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And just more at the level of like.
Arguing about the discourse, I think, rather than the issue itself.
And yeah, I mean, I, I try to find line between somewhat rebelling against my left
wing upbringing and becoming like a bigot.
Yes, I think you do.
And you know, 'cause I want to shed some of that.
I, I don't want to agree with everyone who lives in Northgate.
Do you know what I, I think it's very healthy.
To want to critique the orthodoxies of your childhood, right?
Yeah.
I think that that is absolutely necessary and, and advisable
and actually really healthy and sometimes a really fun thing to do.
Also, to kind of just poke at it and go, ha ha.
It's been fun to go from just a standard lefty to a centrist.
Sure.
Yeah.
But, but, but when I did the vote Compass, I'm like a hard left economic left person.
As it turns out, socially I've become a bit of a centrist and the, I'm
not as socially progressive around things like trans and whatever.
Well, and do you know what I.
Yeah, there's plenty of lefties of that description, Joe.
Like you don't need to feel alone by any means.
There are loads and loads and loads, and I would even possibly count myself,
one of them in certain respects that I'm far more interested overall in the
economic side of it than social policy.
and.
You know, trendy, progressive issues of a sort of, more of a cultural
variety are less interesting to me.
But you have excellent pedigree when it comes to trendy, progressive
issues like you Yeah, pretty much.
you know, you hit the right notes on all those things.
Yeah.
That, that's true.
But part of that is like, just like a knowing like solidarity that,
you know, people have requested solidarity and I'm providing it.
Yeah.
But.
It, I just also, my personal beliefs do tend to line up.
Yeah.
And, and that I do want people to be able to express their gender
in whatever way and feel safe.
And, I also am willing to acknowledge that it, it got a little too far in
certain areas in terms of, distracting us all from some fundamental questions
that the language side of it.
It became far too prominent, which was causing a right wing backlash.
And I mean, I don't give a fig if it upsets them or not, but what it was
doing was distracting from really fundamental issues like the economics of
healthcare and the economics of housing.
And yeah.
And it was a gift.
It was a gift.
It was a fucking gift.
Yeah.
And, and what 90% of the left wing folks?
That maybe have alienated you on other things, you'd be surprised.
I think there's an emerging consensus, which is.
Oops, we got sidetracked by culture war stuff.
Yeah.
Let's get back to economics.
You're talking about the US though, and we No, no, no.
I I think it's the same globally.
Well, we just elected another boring state left government in Australia, so.
Sure.
And that had something to do that had something to do with
getting away from culture war.
And, you know, maybe they were offering something on, they were offering
something on the economic side of things.
Yeah.
But, but I, they stuck to economics.
But I think this is across the western world.
The left across the western world has had a reckoning.
I had a number of huge setbacks and occasional signs
of hope that then withered.
So there's a profound reckoning, and I'll just tell you one anecdote, from
a left-wing podcast that, uh, they were talking about being at a conf, like being
at a proper hard, hard left conference.
And someone sort of raised the question, in a speech, you know.
Why are we ineffective?
Why aren't we getting through to the average person as much
as we think we should be?
Like not just like we believe we're right and should be
getting through to more people.
No, no, no.
Why are we failing on the tactical and strategic level and when we think we
actually, we probably should be doing better on the tactical, strategic level.
Like we've actually got some good messages here and uh, one.
lefty campaigner in his, uh, apparently fifties or sixties stood up and he
said to a mostly younger audience, it's because most of you are such cunts.
Yeah.
To each other, to the public.
You talk down to each other, you talk down to everyone.
No one's fucking good enough for you.
You're so damn up yourselves.
And so self satisfied with like, and this includes me with, you know,
how correct we are about things.
And we've allowed that to get in the way of just saying to people.
Hey brother, do you need help with shelter, brother?
Are you getting pissed on at work?
You know, like, what's getting you down?
We can help.
Like, yeah.
You know, we've, we've gotten away from, you know, putting all of
our, our, our resources into like.
Cultural politics has meant that yeah, the average person just
standing on the sidelines going, well, wait a minute, who's looking
Like, I'm trying to pay the rent here.
Yeah.
And my wages are stagnant.
And like, who's, what are we doing?
What are we gonna do about that?
Like, and that, and as I've, and I've, as I've said to long since, you know, to.
A very close person of mine who's, trans, and I said, I think, could we
all agree the thing we all need is affordable housing and healthcare?
And they were like, yeah, absolutely.
And that's what we should be talking about.
Yeah.
And yeah.
And the word we've managed to do a whole episode on.
Reactivity and avoid using, is the word woke?
Yeah.
We have, what you're describing is basically the woke mistake that Yeah.
Was, came to a huge reckoning with Trump being reelected.
Yeah.
And I think, I think we got maneuvered into that by the press, by the same
people who were running, you know, carrying water for bad people as
we've discussed earlier in this thing.
And or, you know, helping us all to live in a bit of a state of
denial about a lot of things and.
I don't think it's entirely our fault that there were well-meaning people
who just felt that they had to react all the time to the discourse going on.
Instead of like, no, no, let's set up our own agenda.
Yeah, let's set up our own discourse.
Let's run a strategy.
Let's run a strategy and let's aim squarely at the world we want instead of.
Trying to corral the discourse or something like that.
I think the Australian Labor Party ran a strategy and won that handsomely
other, I think part a big part of this because I was spent the three years
of elbow getting broker and broker and broker while working full time.
Yeah.
And that's still happening.
But when the election rolled around, I thought, well, this guy's gonna
fuck me over less than the other guy.
But also, let's face it, if Trump had to taken power after the election,
it might've been a different outcome.
Totally.
Yeah.
They got lucky.
I mean, it's like, oh, I see.
So they're geniuses in hindsight.
Yeah, because Trump got elected.
Exactly.
It's like, oh, you get a, you get to have a look at what?
Patriarchal, blokey, corrupt.
Loose wheeling.
Right wing.
It looks like.
Oh.
It's like, actually we do want nerds.
We do want actually fairly ideologically bland nerds in charge.
Yeah.
Perhaps.
I mean, that is one way of reading the election.
I think the other is that.
There was a fucking massive effort to discredit all the independents and
the teals and the greens, and that basically all the people in this country
were actually providing any kind of useful critique and demanding that
we do much, much, much, much better.
All of those people have been absolutely dragged.
By every MA head in this country.
Like every last one.
I'll say that.
That there's this massive fear of, oh, imagine if it wasn't
a two party duopoly anymore.
No, no, we can't allow that.
Like apparently that's the worst thing PE people can imagine
is like minority government.
It's like back in 2016, the worst thing that a whole section of the press
could imagine was a Sanders candidacy.
Oh, the horror.
And it's like, now look at where we are.
You fuck wits the, the worst case scenario in your mind was like of
basically moderately left wing president.
That was the worst case scenario.
Unthinkable.
Now you've got a used car salesman running the fucking world like.
Well done.
Well fucking done.
I think that's a really good reactivity to finish up on.
Sam, we've gone down a lot of sidetracks.
We've opened up a lot of things that are all like 90 minute topics, and that's an
insult to use car salesman fundamentally.
Some of them are probably okay, you know?
But yeah, you're right.
This is, yes.
Well, one thing that does trigger me is, What could have happened instead?
You know, dam it, if I stop and think about that, I do get upset.
Yeah.
Well, we're here now in our center left, boring country bubble.
Yeah.
And, uh, I don't think it's such a bad thing.
I, I think it's, uh, well, let's say we've finally gotten Canberra back to center.
Right.
But you, and now we can start dragging them.
You.
Well, that's your side of politics.
I'm a centrist, so I've already achieved my aims.
I'm already pretty much living in paradise.
it feels good.
One of these days you'll just, but I can't afford a car.
No.
One of these days you'll just, my car died and I can't afford to replace it.
That sucks.
Yeah.
So I'm driving my mom's car, but I'm living in centrist heaven, you know?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so I don't know.
Maybe Dutton would've put me in a better economic position, but Well,
one of these days you'll just, I'm willing to go down with the shit.
One of these days you'll just admit you're a Hobbs bomb after all.
And yeah, you're gonna join us.
I have been reading a lot of Marxist history.
I really wanna do a subject about, I just wanna hear you talk about it.
Actually, yeah, we could talk some Hobbs ball maybe on the next episode.
But I wanted to do a shout out before we finish.
Today's episode was long and based on, uh, one sentence topic idea from a listener.
Yeah.
So I would love to hear from one of our listeners if there's something
you'd like us to talk about.
I was worried this was gonna be a 20 minute episode.
It's longer than that.
Don't worry.
Yeah.
Um, so I think we can talk about kind of anything.
So please.
Write in, send us a message, send us a text.
If you know us, most of you probably know us.
Yeah.
And we will talk about something that you want us to talk about.
I did scare a few people, Sam, with my.
Tongue in cheek suggested we were gonna do a 25 part series on the Ta de Ching.
Oh, yeah.
Now, that's not to say we won't come back to it, 'cause I think we
will, but that was meant as humor.
We weren't gonna just do the ta de ching for three years and, and it would've felt
like a deviation from like core business.
I understand that.
Well, Liv, when you proposed this topic, wanted us to be relatable,
so hopefully we've been relatable.
Mm, yes.
Yes.
And, um, hopefully Liv's recovering well from her appendicitis.
Yeah.
And if and when we do get back to the Dao, which we will, that it's what
I've, my reflection on those first two was like, yeah, yeah, fine, fine.
There was some worthwhile discussion there, but I've since thought of much
better examples to illustrate like how I think about that second verse,
for example, just very concrete.
Well, maybe that can be a warning to the audience.
If you don't send us a topic idea, we will get back to the Dow.
That's right.
You've been, you know, being warned.
You've been warned and that's right.
But on the other hand, if we do end up there, for example, I was,
I was, I was thinking about beauty.
He, he's trying to start a whole nother episode.
I was thinking about beauty and ugliness more, and that's what I
love about the text is like you, you just let it wash over you and then
just little things come to mind and.
Y you know, back to those magazine covers, if, if we narrowly define beauty like
this, then it diminishes everything else.
So it creates ugliness in the process.
It's just a very simple thing.
Ah, that's good.
And, and yeah, and if we broaden the idea of what's beautiful,
we get to experience more of it.
And then if we let go entirely of notions of beauty and ugliness.
Well then maybe we see things as they really are.
So alright, Sam.
Well it's been fun.
Well, that was another five of the 10, 10,000 things.
Wow.
If we get together more often, we'll have less to say.
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
It's always a challenge, but, uh, it's good to be back in the shed and.
yeah, it'll be a slightly emptier tank next time I guess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
but I'm glad we resolved the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
And all forms of reactivity and, and their own personal beefs.
Yes.
Trauma, all in the one episode.
And cultural and economic politics.
Yeah.
All, all address asteroids.
You're welcome Asteroids.
Don't worry about the asteroids, don't worry about 'em.
Yeah, all dealt with, we direct, we, we redirected one the DART NASA dart.
It's true expedition redirected an asteroid.
So if one's coming, so we're playing billiards with asteroids now everybody.
So Yeah.
You know things are good.
Yeah.
See you mate.
I see ya.