Intro: Boz is buying a house!
Let Me Run This By You: 47 year old Gina saw 19 year old Gina doing accent work and Mark Rannin owes me an apology.
Interview: We talk to playwright, director, and USC alum Ryan Wagner about self-diagnosing as a bad actor, protecting your joy,
Miguel Arteta, filmmaking, his short film
Every Other Week,
Growing Up Hip Hop, being a PA, and keeping a cohort of friends to make films with.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ruez.
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Paci.
1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
2 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of
1 (20s):
It all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? I'll be
2 (31s):
Recording this whole time by the way, if I just realized that
1 (40s):
La Tova motherfuckers. That's what I have to say. Okay.
2 (44s):
Universe, what is it that you're trying to tell us about why we can't do this
1 (47s):
Today? Okay, so what we will say is humans of the world, we had started, we thought we recorded 20 minutes ago and really we were just having a great conversation. So
2 (59s):
I guess you missed, you missed a great time. We'll, we'll do our best to recap, but honestly there's nothing like the energy in the moment and I'm not certain I can duplicate it.
1 (1m 10s):
Yes, let's not do that. So let's just, let's just say that I'm in the house buying process, but I also wanna say like, that was good to to to get out and just that, you know, it is really interesting, you know, mercurys and retrograde, all the things that people talk about. But what I'm noticing right this second in the, well, not right this second, like, you know, throughout the day, the last couple days, is that I keep tripping over my own feet. Like literally. And I keep thinking like in any shoes, any kind of, I'm tripping over myself and it's like, okay, what is the message there? And I think one of them is like slow down, but also it's okay if you stumble also.
1 (1m 55s):
Oh yeah. Things are kind of wonky right now. Also, you're buying a house, trying to buy a house, trying to close on the house and moving potentially. So there's a lot going on. But tripping if you find yourself, And the other thing is, I had, yeah, that really mean roommate I had here used to say like she would get super, super clumsy before like her period or during,
2 (2m 19s):
That's how I get. Yep.
1 (2m 21s):
And I'm in this weird menopause situation. So like, or prairie menopause I guess. So all the things are happening. So I'm just saying, and everyone's like, well you don't wanna buy a house during mercury and retrograde. And I'm also thinking, I know and I also think that, yeah, like the whole planet's dying and in retrograde so like, you know what I mean? Like are we really gonna pinpoint the blame Mercury for
2 (2m 44s):
Yeah, let's don't split hairs. The girl needs a house, she needs more space. Space. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I'm excited for you. I think that's gonna be great. I can't wait to buy you a housewarming present. You'll have to send me your Pinterest mood board about how you're gonna Oh,
1 (2m 59s):
The part about this, the best part about this, well, not the best, but one of the parts, and my cousin hates it when I say this, but I have, I'm gonna have a, she shed
2 (3m 8s):
Nice. Your cousin hates it. Yeah. Cuz it's like, is it not PC or something?
1 (3m 12s):
I don't know, it just, she, No, I, she said it sounds like something peeing going on, like there's some bodily function involved, but I think it may be because it's, maybe because it's gendered too. I don't know. But I love saying she she, because of that commercial Yeah, with the lady goes Richard, some, someone burned down a she shed or whatever that for the insurance company Anyway, so I, I am going to keep everyone updated on what's going on there. The other thing I wanted to ask you was, is it fall there? The most important question.
2 (3m 45s):
Yeah, it's great. I mean it's like the weather is getting, you know, cool but not cold and it's still sunny mostly and yeah, no, this is what listen intellectually, I understand exactly what people mean when they say when they live in California and they say, Oh, I missed the seasons. Like if they grew up on the East coast, I, I do really understand that and it is kind of nice to have a change, but I still think I'd be fine without that too. Yeah, I'd be fine if it was just summer, I'll, I'll all year long. Well
1 (4m 19s):
I think because, because for me it's actually not about the weather, it's the nostalgia, right? It's like, oh with the, the things that are conjured up to me Gilmore Girl's style when I think of the fall. Right. And it is, and a lot of that has to do for me with family and like it's around my birthday and I remember walking home from like elementary school and having, being excited that I could hear the leaves crunching and I knew at my house was waiting my grandma and all the amazing
2 (4m 50s):
Oh,
1 (4m 50s):
That's nice. Yeah. But she's dead and the whole thing went to shit and my parents, So I, when I, and it is beautiful, but I also know that for me a lot of the seasons is about memories, right? It's not actually
2 (5m 2s):
Yeah. And I don't have that, I don't have any nostalgia about fall and winter and, you know. Right. Yeah. So that makes, it
1 (5m 7s):
Totally depends on the divide. Hey, by,
2 (5m 20s):
I mean we, we as women have so many mountains to climb and as podcasters. Okay. So Bo and I have talked several times on the show about wishing we could have a camera to record or something that would've captured any of our time in the theater school, whether it was on stage or, or or otherwise. And I don't know about you, but I resigned myself to, It's never gonna happen and we're just always gonna wonder about it. Well, don't count out Ms. Allison Zel, who recorded all of her performance. She was a director, MFA director. So it makes sense to me that she would wanna make sure she had her performances on camera.
2 (6m 1s):
Now I wanna reach out to the other directors of my other workshops cuz you know, I did all the workshops. So Sean Plan again and David Mold, if you are listening and you have video of any of your shows from theater school, please let me know. Okay. So, okay.
1 (6m 19s):
Wait, wait, wait. I just have to say one thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'll mute again. This is fantastic. Also, of course Azel of course because she was like, she was so much more to in my mind, like more sophisticated and grown up and like New York City and all the things. Yeah. So it doesn't shock me, but it does shock me. So proceed.
2 (6m 37s):
Yeah. Yeah. She's the kind of person who probably started doing to-do list when she was like six years old, which is what my daughters like, and those people are forces to be reckoned with. But yeah, so I did, there's a Paula Vogel play called Des Doona, a play about a Hankerchief. And so it's a feminist take on Othello because it's from the right, The fellow is that? Yeah, Okay. I just, I just flashed on Wait, that's not the right place. Yeah. And so my, and I remembered it of course as soon as I saw it I had to do this crazy accent, this crazy dialect. It was like, or maybe I just did it crazy cuz it was crazy to listen to.
2 (7m 17s):
I'm gonna have to, I have the play, I'm gonna have to go back and look at it. It, it's like cock me. It's like something I've never heard of. In fact, now that I'm talking, I realize it was probably just me doing the dialect. I mean, because I did it with, i I, the scene that I watch, I didn't watch the whole thing. I I really, it was too hard. It was really just too hard and not necessarily for, for the reasons that I thought it would be too hard, which I'll get to. But I did. So the scene that I watched was with Alicia, remember Alicia Hall? Is that her last name? Alicia Hall. Yeah. Mars girl. You know, he was, she was Amar's girlfriend at the time. She is a fantastic actor. She is a really good, and she was doing just kind of like a standard British accent.
2 (7m 59s):
It was completely believable. But I was playing somebody like in the servant class. My dialect was so wild. Now I'm really gonna have to double check if that was how I was directed or if that's just what I did.
1 (8m 16s):
Okay. Is there any way to get audio of it on the podcast? Because Ken met if we open the podcast with that, I mean, Oh God, maybe we, Gina Gina, first of all I have to say, I wanna see it like nobody's business. Second thing, second thing is, did you talk to Allison about the accent yet? Or like did you ask her? No, no. She,
2 (8m 39s):
She just contacted us or to me I guess to say like, Hey, I, I, I have video and we had a little problem for minute for with her sending it to me. But I finally got it and you know, it was just, And also the thing about that is, and if you ever, I think your family might have done some videotaping of you when you were younger, so, so you've probably had this experience. Like, and I didn't, my family didn't do any videotape, so I really have never had that experience of seeing, or except in photographs, I've never heard my voice from when I was a child. And I've never seen video of me from when I was a child.
1 (9m 14s):
Okay. So go through and tell me all the things, like how was the process for you of watching yourself at, how old were you? 20?
2 (9m 25s):
Yeah, yeah, I was 18.
1 (9m 29s):
Lay it on us. Like what was that like? Okay,
2 (9m 32s):
First thought, of course every woman will relate to this. My very first thought was, oh my God, I can't believe I thought I was fat. I was so, so not fat. So I'm not saying I was skinny, but I was so not fat. And also just to know that that was pretty much the only thing I ever thought about during my entire life up to a certain point. And certainly during theater school. Like that's that what a, what a waste of of you know me that I focused on that instead of literally anything else. So that was my first thought. My second thought was just seeing the youthful energy of me was, was very tender.
2 (10m 15s):
Like I thought, oh yeah, I remember that girl, I remember that girl. She was pretty cool. And then it was the accent, which I'm just like, wow, what the fuck was I even doing?
1 (10m 25s):
I really wanna fucking hear it because I bet it's brilliant. But also it reminds me like of some kind of Tim Burton situation.
2 (10m 33s):
Yes, this is giving very, like if I put it on YouTube, it would be kind of, you know, how you went through that phase? Oh, I don't, it was on YouTube or not. Would you like to watch high school musicals? Cuz and many, many people have made amazing super cuts of like one high school, like everybody's doing Fiddler on the Roof. Like you gotta check those out people, if you haven't listened, heard of what I'm talking about just on YouTube, like pick a musical and Google Supercut high school production and you, you'll be in for a wild ride. And you know, and then I was thinking, wow, Alicia's a really good actor. I I'm not that happy with, with my acting, but I only did watch, like literally I think I watched maybe four minutes of this, of this scene and that, and it was painful.
2 (11m 21s):
Just, I think one of the things that was painful about it was literally this notion that I don't have one single record of myself in an animated way for my whole life. Like, that's kind of crazy. And juxtapose that, for example, with my kids who, who it's pro practically, like they're in a documentary film living here. You know, they're, they're gonna have like all moments of their growing up be documented in one way or another. In fact. And my son will have the ultimate document, which is that he'll see exactly an hour and a half of himself, you know, at age 16 when, when he's older and wants to watch. So, you know, I will just say for anybody who's listening to this, who either if you were, if you have video from the theater school, certainly, but if you have video of your cohort or anybody in your cohort from the time that you were in theater school, let those people know because they may be really interested to see that, you know, you, you might have recorded it cuz it was your production or whatever.
2 (12m 22s):
You may have been the lighting person and just had a a, you know, a recording of a play because you wanted to be able to view your own work. But if you know those people or you remember their names, you have access to them, let them know because it is really i'll, I'll go so far as to say, I think it's kind of a necessary thing because when you are inside of your own experience, it's, it's, you don't have that many opportunities to get like a more or less objective view, you know, because you're just always inside of your own subjective experience. So,
1 (12m 52s):
Oh my God, this is fantastic. And I, I think that it, it it, you know what I, when I watch self tapes at first, right? Like, I wanna die and I did, I did wanna Die, Wanna, and then you get used to it. But there is, this is like that on another level, right? Because it's you and it's watching you as a, a child almost. And also saying really adult words and being artistic. There's no way to be objective. Like there's zero way to be objective. But I wanna see it because I, I I bet it's, I also think like how bra, the first thing I think of when you say that is like, how brave to fucking do an accent, whatever the accent at age 20, we have no business.
1 (13m 42s):
Like what are we doing? And, and like also you like went apparently above and beyond and made like a crazy choice, which I love, which I happen to love because I
2 (13m 52s):
Definitely a choice. I could say that it was definitely, I was definitely taking, you know, going in a certain direction.
1 (13m 59s):
Wait, you know what happens in my head when you say that? Like, I literally think, I, I picture you on stage doing that Anna Delvy accent.
2 (14m 9s):
Very that very that very that yes, yes, yes.
1 (14m 15s):
Which I think is a masterpiece on so many levels. And the fact that Julia Gardner could recreate, it's just like we are really insanely brilliant humans. So to think that even if the accent didn't exist, that you were consistently night after night for a, however the workshop went on. I mean, well the workshops like four nights, I don't know to
2 (14m 34s):
Yeah, I think it was like one, one weekend maybe something like that. Yeah. But like
1 (14m 37s):
That you consistently were able to like go for it. I don't know. I think that is really brilliant. So that's what I wanna see.
2 (14m 48s):
I went for it baby. And how, yeah, so no thank you to Allison for that because, you know, otherwise I really wouldn't have ever had this opportunity and it did do something. It did. I'm always talking about like what moves the dial and what doesn't move the dial. I would say this mo did move the dial in a positive way for me in terms of this thing that's been, you know, a years long project. But I'm still very much in the middle of which is like building some self-esteem, having some sense of loving myself. And instead of, the only thing I've ever had looking back at any time in my life is, you know, recrimination, self recriminations and, and guilt
1 (15m 29s):
And loathing, right? Like it's, it's really loathing. I, I mean for me it's like it goes beyond, it goes, it was wanting to, okay, this is a story Heather told you, My Kramer's daughter story, Sophia Richards.
2 (15m 44s):
I don't think so. Let's
1 (15m 45s):
Hear it. Okay. So we went to school with her, but she was younger. Well, when I was there, I don't know if you went to school with Sophia Richards and it's really not Yeah, just,
2 (15m 53s):
Just for one year. Yeah.
1 (15m 54s):
Yeah. So, okay, so I, this case in point of the clothing feeling and wanting to never see this part of my life again. So after my dad died, I was in Chicago. I worked at Transitions book place, which is so fitting for where I was. And I was 2006, I got this job and it was on North and Clyburn, okay. I had to wear. And I had gained a lot of weight because my, they thought I was like, like just like bipolar one at the time. And so I was on lithium. And so anyway, I had gained a bunch of weight and like, I was feeling the worst I've ever felt. But I was coming out of it. I was not in the depths cuz I had a job and I was like participating in life.
1 (16m 37s):
But let's just say it was real shaky. It was real shaky. And so here I am at Transitions book place and we had to wear these aprons. Okay, Aprons.
2 (16m 46s):
What an apron At a bookstore?
1 (16m 47s):
Yeah. Like a, yeah. What? Anyway, so we had these aprons and it was, it, it, and so I had, and one of my jobs was to Windex the doors. Okay. And yeah, I'm what? I'm 30 so, or whatever, 30. Yeah, 31. I don't know. So I'm at the, the windows and in walks, oh my god, in walks. Sophia Richards, you know Michael Richard's daughter Kramer as we know. And and at the time, I don't know if they're still married, Jason, her, her theater school, What was his last name? Jason, Not Dennis. Zach, There's another Jason. He was a blue man. He became a very, Oh I successful blue man.
1 (17m 27s):
He was younger, Younger than we were, but like her age. And she was pregnant and they looked beautiful and I, I was standing there all fat with my apron and my Windex and my, and I thought to myself, and they were lovely. It's not about them, but they, it was like, Oh, I prayed, please God let the ground open up and just swallow. Can I just be swallowed whole by the ground? I cannot do this. And they were like asking me questions and I had nothing to say cuz I had left la like I felt like a failure, all the things. And I just remember thinking, holding this like, Please God, please can you just open the ground and I can't do this, I can't be here.
1 (18m 16s):
And then they went about their business. And that is
2 (18m 20s):
Such a per, that is, first of all, that's a romcom scene. You need to write that into a romcom. A good, you know, a good romcom like that re you know, that represents more than the romcoms we've seen. But I, and I can relate to the feeling of like, oh my God, I feel so, you know, I feel so less than, but what it talk about bravery, I think it was so brave for you to make the choice you did. I know it was impacted by, you know, your dad. But still to, to say, I gotta start, I mean essentially what you said was like, I have to start over, I have to go back, I have to go back to my set point and figure shit out from here.
2 (19m 2s):
That, that's, that takes a lot of courage.
1 (19m 4s):
I knew, thank you. I knew if I had stayed because my relationship with Dave with a non-relationship, he didn't love me and I loved him. And the culminating factor was I had my 30th birthday, I turned October 4th, 2005. I had my 30th birthday party at November, November of 2005 at Norms house. I knew no one at my own birthday party.
2 (19m 30s):
Oh, except wow. Except
1 (19m 31s):
It was like friends of norms and, and except Dave came and I was, the whole reason that I wanted this birthday party was to, it norm's fancy house was for Dave. Literally to see me in this environment and somehow think that I was great and want to marry me. Wow. Wow, wow. Yeah. I knew no one there, Gina, other than Dave. And Dave, who was not interested in pursuing a relationship with me, brought two friends so that he did not have to bear the brunt of that alone. And that he could say, I really, I drove them. I cannot spend the night.
2 (20m 11s):
Oh my God.
1 (20m 13s):
And you know what? I don't blame him. One, it is so much pressure. I I cannot imagine what was going through this motherfucker's head and that it was all for him. All of it. I didn't know who was there, what was, there was 200 people there. I don't know what happened. I was fixated on Dave and he left and I then got wasted and ended up in a pool, you know, drunk with,
2 (20m 36s):
Okay, so, you know, I live a thought experiment. Let's do the thought experiment where you tell me if, if you had, if you were healthy enough at that point to realize, oh my God, I've just forgotten this whole other experience for, for this guy and you had an opportunity to do it right. Maybe he never came, or maybe you stayed after he left or whatever it was. What, what can you imagine might have ha gone differently even with this group of people that you really didn't know anybody?
1 (21m 6s):
I would've had a blast. I would've said, you know what, I'm 30. I made it. This is, there's delicious food and beverage and we're in this beautiful setting. But like, people came up to me and they were like, happy birthday. And I was like, Where's Dave? I was like, I couldn't, Yeah, it was a, it was so bad. The co-dependence and the, and the, it was so bad. And he didn't even stay the night and he didn't spend it was ho it was like, and then he died, but that was later. Right, Right. But like, so I can't even go back to him and be like, Dave, listen to me. This, I I am so very sorry that I I I I put that pressure on you. What in the hell thank you for being my friend.
1 (21m 47s):
Cuz we stayed friends after that, after the big break. Like he told me no, you know, but like, oh my, it was awful. And I knew I had to get the fuck outta, I was like, I can't, This is not working out for me.
2 (21m 59s):
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, and I'm, I, and I'm all for the thing that you just did, which you've done many times before. And I have two, which is like really owning your piece in it, right? Because, and I think that comes from you. You live in this experience and you just feel victimized and all you can see yourself is the victim. And, and only when you start to grow do you, do you see, oh, I had a part in this. Okay, that's all great. However, I would also like sometimes for the people who were the object of these people's affection to ever own up for that, to ever say. I mean, like the person, was it Dave who said no matter how much Yes, Yes. Okay. Well he finally,
1 (22m 35s):
But that was later he got there. It
2 (22m 37s):
Took him a really long time to get there. And you know, like my, my sort of corollary with that is, is that person Mark that I had this, you know, non-relationship relationship with and yeah, I was an idiot. I was an asshole. I sh he, he never lied about who he was. He showed me exactly who he was from day one. And you know, and I tried to forge that into something that it wasn't, However, Mark owes me an apology for, you know, no knowingly exploiting me for, for the only thing I was a value to him, which was for sex. He owes me an apology for that.
2 (23m 19s):
You know, agree. It goes both ways. It goes both ways. Yeah.
1 (23m 22s):
Yeah. I agree that, that it totally goes both ways. And I also agree that yeah, when we're looking back at our lives at really, really painful points in our lives, it's essential that we just also don't take the blame for all this shit. There's any time you have two human beings interacting, you have two human beings interacting.
2 (23m 43s):
Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, an unexpected benefit, I think of having a daughter that was born in 2013, and her worldview starts at a certain place in the history of women. So she reflects back to me these unconscious things all the time as an example. And I'm gonna tell a story that's gonna put, make Erin sound bad, and I don't mean for it too. It's really more about,
1 (24m 14s):
I can say as an outsider, we know that Erin is one of the most amazing, decent humans I've ever met. So there you go. Yeah,
2 (24m 21s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, we, she, we had this great idea to decorate her room for Halloween. And I'm very proud of this idea because as we know, I am not a big fan of decorating for holidays for the most part. And I, I always have this guilty thing of like, Oh God, I should probably decorate and I have these decorations, I should probably bring them out some years. We get to October 30th and I put up one pumpkin, I'm done with it. Other years I've gone all out. Okay, well, I know she is one of the people who really loves the decoration. And I, I was sitting in a room and I go, You know what, let's decorate your room. That way she can have, it can be an explosion of whatever, but it's, it's contained to her room.
2 (25m 5s):
So we were working on that and we went to Home Goods to see if there was anything, you know, that, that could work there. And she wanted me to get something for myself. And, and I, I said, Okay, if I, if I see something, I will. And then I saw something that I kind of like, but I wasn't married to it. And I was holding onto it for a while and I put it down and she said, Why aren't you getting that? And I said, Well, because you know, I don't really need it. And she's like, Well, I don't really need these things either, but I, you know, I want 'em because I wanna decorate my room. And I said, just kind of reflexively, and it is true, but I think I said it as a way of like, I don't know, I said it sort of an excuse, which is, well, you know, dad always feels like we have too much stuff in the house and so I don't wanna bring home more stuff, You know, something, something to that effect.
2 (25m 51s):
And, and she's like, well, he brings home stuff that you don't like and you don't get mad at him about it. And it was just a little moment of like, oh yeah, right. Everything needs to be looked after the lens of equality, not, you know, not just the big egregious things, but the little things too.
0 (26m 17s):
Today
2 (26m 17s):
On the podcast, we were talking to Ryan Wagner. Ryan started out as an actor, but changed gears and went to USC film school and learned all about filmmaking. And he's a director and he's also a playwright. So please enjoy our conversation with Ryan Wener.
0 (26m 38s):
Good skateboarder.
1 (26m 39s):
And we went skate all the time.
4 (26m 43s):
Yeah, totally. That's a good second
1 (26m 45s):
Part. It's a great skateboard. Especially if you're a, especially if you're a bowl skater. Anyway, that's, he's a bowl skater, so that is of a good bowl. See, I don't, I I, it just, none of this matters. So good morning.
4 (26m 56s):
Good morning.
2 (26m 58s):
Okay, so Ryan, tell us how did a man like you make it from Northbrook to USC Film School, which is like the hardest film school to get into?
4 (27m 12s):
I don't know. I mean, I don't know about that, but it's, I, I started in theater, so my whole life I was like an actor and an improviser, stuff like that. And then in high school I realized that I was a bad actor. And so I was like, maybe I won't do this professionally,
2 (27m 37s):
But wait, Ryan, I have to stop you there because Yeah. Who's, who's a good actor in high school, Jessica Chestain, but who, who besides her.
1 (27m 45s):
Yeah. Like I just feel, I wanna know that. And also I wanna know, how did you know, see where does the realization come as a high schooler? Like, Oh, I'm bad at this because I didn't know shit, so you could've told me I was Meryl Streep. And I'd be like, Oh, okay, so how do you know?
4 (28m 3s):
No, I wasn't, I wasn't bad. I, I, I think I was good. I think what I was not good at was like the, what would end up being the career of being an actor. Like I, I don't have the disposition for it. I don't have the endurance for it. I don't have, I didn't have the confidence for it, you know? And so I think I was like, good enough on stage and then just a disaster in my own brain, you know
1 (28m 36s):
What I mean? I mean, I feel like that is the number one thing that happens, which is that people look, it, it, it's the thing of which I always talk about of like, there's a difference between doing the work and then of being an actor on stage or on set or on, And then there's the whole fucking business management, self-regulation part of it that fucking sucks. And also we don't get paid for. So it's like, yeah, no disposition. It does take a certain disposition.
2 (29m 6s):
It does. And also, you know, I, I think a lot of people, Ryan is also a director who directs films and writes, I think that people who have that kind of an eye, you know, for directing and for writing are always much more critical of themselves and other people, but mostly of themselves, you know, So in, in a way maybe you're, there is a thing I think, I hope nobody takes us the wrong way, but there is kind of a thing about being too smart. I I don't mean that to say that good actors are done, I just mean like, if, if, if maybe it's a combination of being really smart and then just struggling with, you know, self-esteem for whatever reason, it, it, you know, because otherwise you might have said, well, like, I'm not that great right now, but I'm, I'm gonna get there.
2 (29m 52s):
Right. You, you might have had that thought, but, but you, you kind like xed it out at the beginning.
1 (29m 57s):
Yeah. And then
4 (29m 58s):
I think I also, Yeah, go ahead. I think I also just was, I think when you're so hyper aware, you start to really like, dissect the form pretty intensely. And I think that made me a bad, or not a bad, I think that made me not the best actor, but then ended up kind of teaching me story in a pretty good way. Like, I learned what felt dramatically satisfying from that. And I think I started to be able to understand like, well this is what I value in a story. Oh look, everybody loves this play, but I don't like this play. That's why my taste is this.
4 (30m 39s):
And you know, I think I just started developing this feeling of like having opinions. Yes. By, by being too hyper aware. Well also
1 (30m 49s):
What what I'm hearing is like you have the ability, and I know of this to be true for so many directors, especially to get a bigger picture of you, of what is going on. And I feel like actors, for the most part out of necessity or whatever, are hyperfocused on that one thing, which is, how do I tell this story through this character where writers and directors that, especially that I'm, I'm meeting lately, that they are able to see yeah, the overview. They're way more objective in a way, but also know what they like. But I I, it's really hard to be objective as an actor because you're just doing your thing all the time. So anyway, I think this is so, it's so fascinating to talk to someone that, okay, so then what happened?
1 (31m 33s):
So you were like, okay, maybe not for me the straight up like acting theater conservatory. So how did you, where'd you go?
4 (31m 41s):
So at the, at the same time as me sort of realizing like, okay, maybe I'm not destined to be an actor. I started writing plays and, and I started in high school, they, there was this opportunity where you could like put on someone act plays that you had written. And so I, I directed two plays that I wrote and I was like, Oh my God, this is so fun. This is like, I get all the credit of acting, but I don't need to like really put myself out there. I can hide in the shadows and still feel like people are proud of me.
4 (32m 22s):
Yeah, I mean
1 (32m 22s):
I think that's important. Like, I think it's important that to know that like, just because just because people aren't quote actors and in front of the camera does not, or on the stage doesn't mean that we don't need, we don't need to feel like our work matters and that we are like cool and special. So you found that during those one, how awesome it was that you could, you could direct your own one X in high school.
4 (32m 47s):
It was so cool. It was really so special and such a privilege and like, I don't know if I would've found this without, without that. Yeah. I mean like truly just a privilege. That's what it is.
2 (33m 1s):
Yeah. And what immediately comes to mind is, I bet you had a great teacher cuz one of the commonalities Yeah. That we've gotten from interviewing people is like having a great theater teacher in high school makes all the difference for many people who would otherwise have never considered that as a career choice. Was that true for you?
4 (33m 22s):
Yeah, I had the best theater teacher, as I would guess many people did. Her name was Ms. Robinson, her name is now something different cuz she is married and I don't remember, but she's still Robinson to me. And yeah, she, I mean she was the first person that I ever, I I just learned from her that you could be really silly and everyone could still like you, like you could really just be so free and goofy and comfortable with yourself and, and people would like you more than if you were very protected and scared.
4 (34m 5s):
You know, she was really not scared. That was so important for me. That was like the, the, the thing that I needed, which is why I fell in love with beat. Cause I was like, oh my God, like I've never felt this good before. Like I've never, I never, I didn't know that I could be this vulnerable truthfully, like as a, you know, a boy in high
1 (34m 26s):
School. So interesting. And I, and I'm wondering, you know, where do you think both of you that sense? Cause what I really hear is that Ms. Robinson gave you like the permission to play and Yeah. Some right? And somewhere along the fucking line that gets taken away and it becomes like serious business. Yeah. And then the reason that most of us get into the arts is that sense of play and then all of a sudden it's gone. And I think that's why people are like, Oh, I don't fit in here because I thought this was about play and now it's all serious business and about how skinny and cute I am.
1 (35m 6s):
How do you know, Right? Like, we need to bring that sense of playback. So I guess I'm wondering, do you bring that sense of play into the work you do as a director now and a writer?
4 (35m 17s):
I hope so. I I think what you're saying is so smart and so right. Like, I think like if I was gonna not have fun, there are industries where I could make so much more money not having fun. And so I think for me it's like if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna live this life, like it has to be fun otherwise, like what is the point of it, right?
1 (35m 44s):
I
2 (35m 44s):
Have that same thing. I can, I can attest, I can attest that Ryan is fun and brings a great sense of fun, which is really even more remarkable when you think about the job of a first ad, which is how I met Ryan when he was a first ad on a set. Truly, it's like such an impossible job, especially when, especially in the situation you guys had, were like, you also all lived together during the shoot. I, I, I, I can't begin to imagine the nightmare that would be for me. I'm not saying it was for you, but for me it would be a nightmare to be expected to run roughshod basically over people during the day because that is what you have to do when you're responsible for keeping everybody to a schedule and then like relax at night and on the weekends and, you know, be like your normal, fun, fun self that, that's gotta be really tough to do.
2 (36m 43s):
Did you, did you find that to be a
4 (36m 45s):
Tough position? I, I have a mentor named Miguel Lata, who's a really incredible director and who I worked for for years. And he's amazing and something that he would always say is, Protect your joy, which I really kept with me forever. Like, protect your joy to me is such a beautiful idea because it, it, it suggests that your joy is already there. Like, I, I kind of imagine like a flame, like a little candle that you're keeping from getting blown out. And so I think for me the sense of fun is something that is so easy to lose and it's so easy for that candle to get blown out.
4 (37m 28s):
But it's, I think, important to understand that like, fun should be the baseline, like joy should be the baseline. And of course there are moments where like it can't be that and it isn't supposed to be that and that's fine, but like, I think joy should be always and then we should take it from there, you know?
1 (37m 47s):
Yeah, I I I agree. And I, I guess my next question is, so at usc was it joyful at all or was it fucking hell on earth? Or a mix of the boat? Like how, how did that, so I guess first let's back up. So when you were like, okay, like I love this directing writing thing, and then how did that translate into picking a college and did you go right to school and how was that experience of applying to schools?
4 (38m 13s):
Sure, yeah. I applied to a lot of schools. I applied for business school. I applied, I think I did apply for theater, just like, so I had that in the, on the menu and I applied to usc, I think I'm pretty sure because it was on the common app, I think I wasn't even like aiming for usc, I think it just like was something I could click a button and apply to. And I know that I had a film that I had to submit to USC that I had already made because I had to submit to Syracuse.
4 (38m 53s):
So like I could just kind of click a bunch of buttons and then I applied to USC and then I, then that's where I ended up going. It wasn't, I don't know, there was, I, I followed like this idea that, that I wanted to end up in LA and USC was a good fit for someone who wants to relocate there. That's true. And yeah, that was really good
1 (39m 16s):
Thinking. Wait, so you had made a film in high school?
4 (39m 19s):
Well, for admissions, like you have, you, you have to in order to, it's part of a film school. So this play that I wrote in high school called Kellogg, I just kind of filmed that play. I mean, it was a very lazy idea of directing, but like, it was, I I, the word adapted would be very generous, but I adapted it into a short film and used that.
2 (39m 47s):
Okay, you're reminding me of something right now, which is that I think like one of the first conversations I ever had with you or or second maybe I said, Oh, you, you like, you don't, you're not, you don't take compliments. Well you don't, you don't. Or no, you told me I don't take compliments well. And I said, Oh, I'm gonna try to help you with that, you know, during the course of this, because I actually did see you act, Ryan has a video of himself in a solo performance and it was actually really, really good. And he actually is a really good actor. I wasn't gonna say that because you know, I don't wanna I don't wanna invalidate like your own, There's something to be said for like your own idea of opinion of yourself.
2 (40m 28s):
I don't wanna be invalidating about that, but I did. I did think you were a good actor. Another thing I just wanted to mention is I heard somebody say, I don't know if it was you or somebody else cuz there was a lot of USC people on this film set, but that the doors, literally the doors at USC are really heavy and hard to open. So it's literally hard to get into. And I just wondered like how much of that vibe transmitted itself in terms of your education or your experience of being there?
4 (40m 59s):
I definitely wasn't one that said that door thing. I don't, Were they suggesting that the doors are heavy on purpose? Is that what they were saying?
1 (41m 6s):
Yeah, that there's kind of a vibe of the architecture itself is sort of, is really like, you have to put a lot of effort into it. And I think it was actually the director of the film that said that, but
4 (41m 19s):
I don't think they way, way down the doors, the vibe at USC is not, not that it's not bad. It's, it's not like a, it doesn't feel cutthroat or, or anything like that really. I mean, it's competitive. It's like definitely competitive. I think that fit the high school version of me much better than it fits the version of me right now. Like I think, I think I, excuse me, I think I used to sort of thrive in an environment where I was trying to like, you know, rise to the top honestly.
4 (42m 6s):
And, and, and that I've later like in later years sort of realized like maybe isn't the way that I best respond. And that, like, for me personally, art is more interesting when it's made in like a, a playful environment. But USC was really focused on like, you know, getting you into the film industry. And I think there's a, an acknowledgement from USC that like they know what they're talking about and they've like sent so many people into the industry. So it, it does feel at times a little like, I don't know, it just, it just feels like they really are sort of like an authority on something which isn't, which is good and sometimes a little hindrance.
1 (42m 57s):
Yeah, I mean I think that, like what I'm hearing from what you're saying is like, it is the truth that like we, Jean and I were talking about this, that like, you know, LA is a company town, it's a mining town and the mines are the entertainment industry and it's a professional program. Like, you go there and they're, what I do, what I've noticed about people that go to USC is like, it's very clear from what I've heard, like day one, like the job is to get the, the, the goal is to get work in LA making films, right? And they help you to do that. It may not in the process, it may be kind of fucked up or like whatever happens, but definitely the other thing I'm realizing about education and things is that reputations are established and for a reason and then they, it has a, a certain sort of expectation attached to the name and then it is the job of the institution and the people that go there and that work there to make sure that na that lasts, right?
1 (43m 57s):
It doesn't drop off and that takes a certain amount of work. So anyway, I have a lot of respect for schools that are very focused on that and they, it's not like, like, just to contrast it to like DePaul's Theater School, which is like the, the or any conservatory for acting, which is we're here to teach you about art and how to be alive on stage and like, I wish that there had been more focus. So it just sounds like it's a focus program for film school, you know? It is what it is. It's film school. So I guess my question to you is like, did you find joy there?
4 (44m 32s):
Yes, definitely. I think the joy at USC comes from the joy of the other people there. And I think that's the same with any school where, where someone feels comfortable. I don't think USC is necessarily like any better at collecting cool, interesting people. But I know that there were so many cool, interesting people there and there was so much joy in that. Like it's, the education that I received was like, I have a memory freshman year of college, my roommate and I, Matt Burke, Matt is a, an amazing cinematographer.
4 (45m 13s):
He shoots a lot of my stuff. I just remember us watching movies in our dorm room and we would pause the movie and I would say to Matt, cuz he was so much better than me, I would say to Matt like, how'd they do that shot? And then we would take out his little DSLR camera and in our dorm room we would recreate the shots of the movies we were watching. I like, that's how I learned about like depth of field and how I learned about, I don't know, I mean, you know, there there was just stuff I learned in that room with him. And so that was the education for me. And every, every single person there taught me everything, you know, that like, I just, I just absorbed through the people around me.
2 (45m 53s):
That's interesting. I, something just occurred to me, which is, you know, you can be a very successful actor without ever having any actor training cuz you can learn on the job and usually the jobs work that way. They're very small parts and then, and then they build their their way up. But you can't learn like, cinematography on the job, can you?
4 (46m 18s):
Oh, sure. I think, I think, I think that's how so many people have learned. I just know that because I came from theater, I showed up at USC without knowing anything. I was, I was at such a level of worry all the time that I was like not deserving of being there because I was like, in my mind much more of like a theater director than a film director. So, so for me, I was just like freaking out all the time asking people for help and my, and, and Matt, because we lived together was super generous that way. So we would, he just like taught me everything that he learned by just owning a camera his whole life and playing around with it.
4 (47m 3s):
Like, I think there's, again, I, I learned from people rather than a school. Well I learned from the school, but like, I I, the, the value for me came from all, all the, the people that were there
1 (47m 15s):
With. Okay, So I, what I'm getting from you is that you are like, community sounds really important to you or like the, the environment is, it sounds like heavily influence for you. Like your experience is heavily influenced by the types of community and the types of people you're around. Not necessarily, Yeah. The actual stuff you are learning like that. It's a combo platter. So I guess, so you went to usc and then what was your like launch like from usc? When did you graduate?
4 (47m 52s):
2017. Okay,
1 (47m 53s):
So 2017 free pandemic. So you launched, What is, what did they, did you feel prepared to enter the entertainment industry on some level? And I know whatever might never be to totally prepared, but like what was your launch like from usc?
4 (48m 10s):
Yeah, I, I think I felt prepared. I wasn't, but I definitely thought I might have been, I don't remember. I, I, I know I was catering so it, it couldn't have been that great. But I
1 (48m 32s):
Did you all have like a showcase or like how was the, what was the culmination of your experience at USC in terms of how they let you out into the world? Did you network with people? What was that like?
4 (48m 44s):
There, there was not an undergraduate showcase and there wasn't a ton of formal sending off my thesis film. My senior year was sort of my personal fireworks at the end of college. And that, that project is where I really learned a lot, like where I grew up a lot. I, I made a ton of mistakes on that project. I made mistakes really, really, really focused toward like, excuse me, it sounds like I'm crying, I promise I'm not.
4 (49m 25s):
I made mistakes towards like relationships with people. Like I took the film too seriously. It it, I totally lost perspective and this was sort of the turning point between when I was saying like my high school self was maybe better suited for USC than my current self. This was sort of the moment where I was like, Oh man, I'm losing so many friends from a movie, from a stupid little movie. I'm just, I'm just so unhappy and I'm so sad and I'm so lonely. And wait,
1 (50m 1s):
What happened? What, what, what, what was the process like? Why, why did it turn into that? What what went down?
4 (50m 8s):
We were just kids acting like adults. We just were taking it very seriously. And so there was no single it, it would be hard to like pinpoint what happened, but it was me being a dick. I was, I was like being like a little director, man. I, I would guess I was like, I don't know, like probably just, just not a very nice person. And, and the movie turned out okay, you know, and it, and, and, and everyone liked the movie and I was like, wait a minute, this is backwards. Like, I, like, people are happy about the art and then I'm miserable about the process and I I can't do that anymore.
4 (50m 56s):
So I think coming out of USC I was focused on like, how can I be part of a community and how can I feel like, you know, I'm coming up with folks and, and it was a lot of PAing it was, I worked on like, you know, reality tv I have a lot of stories from reality tv. I, I'm trying to think of my first,
1 (51m 24s):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
4 (51m 27s):
My first PA job, I think really ever one of them was for a, a a, a reality show called Growing up Hip Hop, which was
2 (51m 41s):
Yes,
4 (51m 42s):
I remember about, yeah, about C level hip hop stars. It was about their children. So it's like three degrees from something interesting. And so my first day on set, I was starting in the middle of the season, I was replacing another person my age who had, who had just quit the day before. And so I show up to set and the guy's like, I think the production supervisor was like, You're gonna be here, you're gonna be like locking up the set, like in between takes, you can let people go through. But once we call action, lock up this edge of frame. And then he kind of moved a little closer and he said, and just so you know, the guy that you're replacing yesterday, he made eye contact with one of the rappers in the scene and the, the guy, he stood up and punched the pa in the face and he had to go to the hospital.
4 (52m 38s):
And so just make sure that while you're locking it up, you don't, you don't look at him. Oh
1 (52m 46s):
No. Oh no. Oh my God. That's brilliantly horrific on so many levels
2 (52m 51s):
By the way. That job of locking up the set is, to me that's which is like the entry to the, to the film industry. That is the biggest obstacle there. I could never do that now. That's so scary. I, I'd be like, okay, if you want, just go ahead. I mean, because I, when I lived in New York City and things were, you couldn't cross the street into your own house. I'm like, I, I live right there. It made me so angry that I cannot imagine enforcing that. And maybe it's easier in la I'm not sure cuz maybe people are more used to it, but you, you, it, you literally, like, it impacted the quality of your commute when, you know, when they were filming anything, which they always were.
4 (53m 28s):
Being a PA is the hardest I've ever worked for. Being a PA is by far the hardest me
1 (53m 34s):
I've ever worked. Me too. I was a pa and it was fucking brutal.
4 (53m 39s):
Yeah, it's, I mean it was, it was really hard. I have
1 (53m 44s):
Did you get punched in the face? Did
4 (53m 46s):
You get punched in the face? No. So I did not, I did not get punched in the face by that guy. Okay. And so that was a really good day at work. Great, great. So yeah, I mean that was, that was the launch out of usc. It was jobs like that. It was making a ton of pa friends, you know, like, like meeting people not from USC now for the first time, like going out in the real world and then also working a lot of jobs that had nothing to do with the film industry. Sure. And just like, you know, supporting myself how I could and like being like a, you know, a little, a little man walking around a city.
2 (54m 22s):
That thing you were describing about, you know, feeling like you'd damaged your interpersonal relationships. I mean that's something that I think it was really, really translates to theater too, you know, that that can happen in theater that's kind of toxicity was, you know, standard. And like, actually if you think about it really taught to us that it was okay for directors to act like that, especially if they were geniuses. And so in our experience, which was, you know, 25 years before your school experience, not only, you know, were we not, did we have, not only did we not have any discussions about like what kind of a person you're gonna be in your work, you know, it it, it was everything was just like assumed, Oh, if you're the director you have like this if you're the Yeah.
2 (55m 13s):
You know, scenic designer you have like this, Were there any conversations that you can think of that were kind of more formal, maybe not part of the curriculum per se, but that, that would you have conversations with teachers about like where they were encouraging people not to be an asshole? Or did, did you get any like, messages or teaching about how to be as a person on a project?
4 (55m 38s):
No, we, we didn't talk about that. And I think it's something that, I don't know, I feel grateful that I learned it for myself. Like, that was such a real learning experience and I don't really know how you teach. I don't think anyone would listen if they said, don't be an asshole. And I, I, I think it's hard when, and this is gonna sound a little valid, dramatic, so I'm sorry if I make your eyes roll, but it's like when you care about something so much and you're on, I mean, you know. Okay, so the thing about film that makes it a little tragic as a filmmaker is that you only get to do it a couple times a year.
4 (56m 23s):
Oh right. Like, you know, I, I call myself a director. I am a director and it might be like, you know, a handful of of sets that I'm on for, for an entire year. And that means there's a lot more time in the year where I am not directing, but I am still a director. And that means that these moments that you get where you do finally get to do it, it's, it feels so important. It felt, Yeah. And this is what happened in college. It's like I finally had a budget. I finally had a crew. I had a story I cared about. Oh my God, this has to go well.
1 (57m 3s):
Exactly.
4 (57m 4s):
And and that's something that I still am, am I don't know how you work on this. I don't know how you figure it out, but it's,
1 (57m 11s):
How old are you?
4 (57m 13s):
27.
1 (57m 13s):
Yeah. Okay. So, so I think that you are right, exactly. You're like, in my 47 year old, mine are about to be 47. You are exactly right. Where, where this happens, where you're actually ahead of the game, like looking at you. But, so the more it just comes, you're right. You can't really teach this shit like you learn as you go along, or I did, I learned from 27 to 47 the, you pace yourself in terms of your expectations. So it's like, oh, like for me, like going my first set, and I still get scared on set, but like my first set was like, Oh my God, it has to be as an actor.
1 (57m 57s):
And I was an actor on set. And then you sort of realize like, oh, this is like a long process. I'm in it for the long game. So it's like, I don't literally, you, your resources start to become more precious, the internal resources of like, how crazy am I gonna get on this? And also knowing that, like, I think I have less to prove now. I mean, we always have something to prove on set because of course there's a lot of money involved, there's a lot of, But like, it's a long game versus, I remember just getting out of school and being like, Oh my God, if I don't fucking have all the experiences in this one experience, I, I'm, it's not worth it.
1 (58m 39s):
But now, and I realize like, oh, like it's all leads to the next thing, which leads to the next thing, which leads to the next thing. But you can't know that until you do it.
4 (58m 48s):
No. And it, it's, it's, I have made so many different types of mistakes. I am still so much learning the type of person I wanna be, the things that I've done that have been problematic or that are like things I need to like heal within myself. And you know, there, there I am so much still figuring this out. That said, I am also really trying to process like what it means to have this, this thing that means so much to me and to in one hand want to do everything possible to make the greatest art that I could possibly make, which feels extremely important to me.
4 (59m 38s):
And then on the other hand, like never, never believe that this art is more important than literally anything else.
1 (59m 47s):
Well, right. And yeah, you're figuring, Yeah, it's values, right? It's values because some person, like you said it, you said it, Ryan, you are figuring out for you what kind of person you wanna be, often onset. And that, and some people are literally like, I will kill a bitch to make this movie and I don't care what I have to do. But for you, it sounds like that's not gonna cut it, but based on what brings you joy and fulfillment in your life. So you're figuring it out. And I think the most important thing that I hear from you in terms of like a predictor of like how awesome your life is gonna be, is that you, you're teachable and you are like healing, Like healing is part of your journey.
1 (1h 0m 28s):
So that's gonna look a lot different than someone who's like, I don't give a fuck about healing and who I am. I just wanna fucking be rich. You know what I mean? Like, that's a different, that's a different path. Yeah,
4 (1h 0m 39s):
Yeah, totally. I, I definitely don't want to kill a bitch. And I think that for me, like it's even less about the, the, the, the being rich and the success and more just that this is an opportunity that is rare. It is so hard to have the privilege to, to direct something. And so then how, Right. Cause I, I, I think on some level, like to be an actor, to be a director, to be any type of artist, you for a moment have to believe that what you're doing is really important. You have to like forget everything else and just a hand handover your life for a second to this, this thing that you're working on.
4 (1h 1m 28s):
And that takes a belief that it matters and to, to maintain the perspective that it does matter. It matters so much, it's so valuable, but it's not any more valuable than friendship or your life, you know? It's, it's hard. It is just, it's a, it's, it takes a maturity that I definitely don't have yet. And I'm, I'm working on,
2 (1h 1m 55s):
Yeah. I, I guess it's the money thing that makes for these pressure cooker environments of like, you know, I think I, in other words, I think a lot of toxic behavior also in theater, even though there's absolutely no money involved, there is this, you know, just this panicky pressure about like, we only have this much time to get it done. And I don't really see a way around that because for film especially, I mean, making a movie is really expensive that you, nobody has the luxury of just, you know, taking their time and like checking in with everybody about how they're doing. So I don't like really see that, you know, evolving necessarily anytime in the future. But I did wanna ask like your, your film that you did in college that you know, was a big learning moment for you.
2 (1h 2m 43s):
What happens next in the life of that? Do you, how does that work? You made, you made a film, you did it for, for your thesis, but it's a film that you can be proud of. So now what do you do with it?
4 (1h 2m 56s):
I entered it in festivals. I was then rejected from festivals. I ended up selling it to a streaming cert, like an online distributor called Seed Spark. And I don't, I think it's still on there. I don't remember what my contract ended, but, but yes. Yeah, so I, I just kind of wanted to, So
2 (1h 3m 25s):
It's all done. You're all done with
4 (1h 3m 26s):
That? Yeah. That, that one. I mean, it's funny, you know, the other thing about, or one of the other things about film that I'm still figuring out for myself is the process of making something so long that you really have a, a whole life cycle of the way that you feel about something. And so, I mean, I love that movie, but it is so in film years, you know, it's like, so it's like a, it, it it's me in a daycare or something. It's so far away. So, so I love it. I love it a lot. And I think it's a very special thing, but it's, you know, it's, it feels like kids made it.
1 (1h 4m 6s):
Well, the o the other thing is that I'm noticing, and maybe you're gonna notice is that like things come back like later, like, like there's, I always think I'm done with a project and then like down the line someone's like, Hey, can I look at that solo show you did from 2013? And I'm like, What? I, I did what? Oh, right, okay. How
4 (1h 4m 26s):
Does that, how does that make you feel as an artist that inevitably has grown? How do you feel having or getting to show work from a version of you that like, you might not relate to as much anymore?
1 (1h 4m 40s):
I think I, oh, I love it because I have done the inner work on myself to make peace with that person who I was good, bad, ugly, flabby, whatever the thing is, if I, if I, and also I can rest shirt and I try to do this with all my art, that like at the time, at that moment I could stand behind the words that were coming outta my mouth a hundred percent. So because of that, I could be accountable and I may not like it. I may be like, Oh my God, that was an, and sometimes I made jokes that cuz a lot of my stuff is kind of stand upy, that was probably not appropriate and that I would have to really, and that I have had to say like, man, that was not right and I apologize for that.
1 (1h 5m 25s):
But I, I, I think the integrity of the project is still there because I was all in and I, I could stand behind it, but I think it gets different if it's, you know, I don't know, like, yeah, it depends,
2 (1h 5m 42s):
Well you, you as the artist can age out of a project, but that doesn't mean that somebody who would be encountering it, who might be more at the stage of life that you were in when you made it wouldn't benefit from hearing your story. I mean, I think that's the, another one of like the miracles of film is that I, if I, if I want to, you know, know something about what Orson, you know, early Orson Wells was, it's there, it's available to me. Right. Whereas if I wanna know something about, you know, the first play at Step and, Well, Lori Metcalf, did, you know, I'm, I'm sort of out of luck on that one. So as, as you've mentioned, it is such a privilege and, and a and a privilege to, to be able to make a film that, that that's your story and you, you've done it once.
2 (1h 6m 32s):
Do you have something else that you're trying to give birth to?
4 (1h 6m 38s):
Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm always writing a bunch of different projects, so I have like, you know, a few features that I'm working on getting off the ground right now. I have a couple pilots that I'm getting out there and you know, it's, it's, there's always a bunch of stuff in development. I think I had this professor one time his name, or do I want to tell this story? Is this appropriate? Yes. Okay.
2 (1h 7m 8s):
So you can always cut it out later if you regret
4 (1h 7m 11s):
It. No, I just won't say his name. I had a professor who had this incredible career, not as a director in a different department, and there were two opportunities in his life where he was going to direct. And he said that the first time he was going to direct a war broke out in that country. It was some eastern European country, and the government disintegrated and all of their permits therefore disintegrated. And so two weeks before shooting his, his first feature,
1 (1h 7m 48s):
Oh my god, got shut down. Oh my god,
4 (1h 7m 50s):
Kick back up. And then the second one, it was two weeks before shooting, and his agent called him and, and called him into the office and sits down and the agent passes him a comic book and the professor takes the comic book and looks through it and he realizes that this is his movie, that this is the story of his movie, and he learns that the writer plagiarized it. And so his, his feature falls apart for the second time, two weeks before shooting. And I was sitting in his office when he told me these stories and I said to him, and this, I'm not, I'm not saying this to be funny, I said to him very seriously, like, how did you not kill yourself?
4 (1h 8m 41s):
Like you have you, like all you wanna be is a director. You these like years and years you've poured into these two projects. They both fall through. And then he never directed, he became an extremely successful person in his, in his other department, an amazing career. Nothing to have any ounce of regret about, but I was like at that moment, like, how did you not absolutely lose your mind? And he said, If you wanna be okay, you need a ton of projects going all the time. And that has really stuck with me because there are so many reasons that you're in control of that your project could or could, that could be the reason that your project falls apart.
4 (1h 9m 31s):
And then on top of that, there's even more reasons that you're not in control of. And between those two categories,
1 (1h 9m 38s):
It's probably likely it's not gonna happen when you think it's gonna happen, even if it happens. Totally.
4 (1h 9m 43s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 9m 43s):
Yeah. I I totally, I think that's, I mean, I, I do, I think that we talk a lot on the podcast about resilience and, and keeping going despite insane shit that goes down. Yeah. So since your, since your thesis film, have you directed like a little shorts web series, anything? Or has it been like, you are literally like working as a first ad? I mean, which is in itself its own thing. So like have you gotten a chance to direct anything since your thesis?
4 (1h 10m 14s):
Yeah, totally. I, I direct a fair amount, so Oh, great. I've had quite a few shorts that have done the, the festival thing. I direct a lot of music videos or not a lot, but I, I, you know, I I direct music videos and commercials and, you know, for me, Yeah, yeah, I direct, I I was ADing on the, the On Big Boys, the movie where I venting that I was ADing on that because the director Corey is an amazing friend of mine and obviously an amazing artist. And I wanted to be there when he made this movie.
4 (1h 10m 56s):
I wanted to help in way that I could.
1 (1h 10m 58s):
What was it like, Okay, so what's it like, you don't have to like to be a be a director and you're, you're like, one of your best friends is the director and you are like, I'm in a first ad because I wanna support and be with it. Do you, what's it like to watch someone else that you love directing?
4 (1h 11m 18s):
Well, so Corey and I had, I love Corey, I do love him so much. At the time before this movie, Corey and I had much more of like a kind of creative partnership. So Corey, Corey, I was introduced to him because he directed this web series that I was acting in. And then Corey started editing some projects that I had directed. And so we had become, and on that LA we, Corey edited a movie that a short, that I directed called Every Other Week, which we, we became quite close on that project. And so we really started to feel like, Oh my God, like we're, we're friends.
4 (1h 12m 0s):
You're, you're so wonderful. And then pretty quickly after that Big Boys popped up. So I hopped on and I did the project. It was amazing. I, the, the thing about ADing that is so, and there's tons of parts that are not the best, right? But the thing that's awesome is that at the end of the day, you know, you're, you're done. And when you're directing Yeah, you're never done, Right? Ever. And so Corey, I watched him for a month like, you know, him and, and, and Allison, our producer, like really the two of them just like lugged this, this like boulder up a mountain together, you know, And, and, and we all, we all would, like the crew was behind pushing the boulder, but then after 12 hours the crew would stop pushing and then Cory and Allison would be the only two people left there.
4 (1h 12m 56s):
Right. And that, to be honest, for me, was really nice. I got to right, I got to stop working at the end of the day. I mean, I worked my butt off during the day and, and certainly after work we were all still talking about stuff and planning and I was, I was still scheduling at night, but you know, it's weren't spreading.
1 (1h 13m 18s):
I was not as much fretting, fretting about the integrity that's right. Of the project after 8:00 PM or whatever. And I think that, yeah, it's kind of like be, Oh sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna say that like, what you're also, what I wanna point out, what you were also talking about is like this idea that, which makes sense to me of that, like when you said, I wanna come up with people so that we all get to take turns, there's a real community about taking turns on each other's projects, doing various roles versus always just being in one role on one project. And so then we have more of a collaboration.
1 (1h 13m 58s):
So like, you know, it just, it just behooves art for people to sort of take turns on each other's projects doing various things. Because I think it shows the different parts of a set and you don't get, I think the ego loves to say, Oh, I'm a director, I'll always be the director, but it's for me anyway. But like, we can take turns doing each other, doing stuff for each other. And I think that's really how we learn and also how you get to make really good friends with people. That's all I was gonna say.
4 (1h 14m 28s):
Yeah. And to this idea that like, to be a director has nothing to do with AD or it has nothing to do with the art department. It's, it's so untrue. I mean, the best directors in my opinion are the, are those that are good leaders because they have worked in so many departments. And AD is a privilege because I get to talk to every department. I get to bounce between people. And so I would say that watching Corey, you know, he's such a great director, He is so patient and so thoughtful and prepares so well that I learned a ton from watching him. And, and you know, to say like, as a director, I only direct, it's like, all right, then you're only gonna see the way you direct.
4 (1h 15m 14s):
And it's probably underdeveloped only because we're young people. Like, how could we be that good at this yet?
1 (1h 15m 20s):
Right. And I think it's really smart for people to stick around with people who are at the same level but also doing different things.
4 (1h 15m 32s):
I, I, and it's inspiring and that's the other thing. It's like, it's creatively inspiring. I watched Corey for a month direct a movie, and the whole time I'm like just bursting with excitement cuz I, I, I, I'm so happy and I wanna make my own stuff and I, I wanna work with these people for every, you know, it's like I got off that mountain and just started writing. That's all I've been doing. You know, it's, it's a, like, it's great.
2 (1h 15m 57s):
Nice. That's fantastic. Is there a version in film, like of what we have in theater, which is a, a repertory company or not even a repertory company. Like for example, how when Step and Wolf to name that theater company again started, they, no, nobody wanted to be the artistic director because that's not, there was a bunch of actors and that's not what they got into it for. So they rotated, you know, they rotated who would be at the helm. It's not quite where you're describing what you have de facto a co-op with your group of friends where, okay, on this one I'll ad and then you'll write that one and I'll, you know, whatever. Is there anything like that though in film where, you know, it's like the, because what you're saying who you work with is so important.
2 (1h 16m 48s):
Once people find their, like their little hub, their little group that they're really good at working with, is there any way in which those people get to just always make films together? Or does that not happen until you're, you know, the Coan brothers and you know, have your, have your stock cast and crew?
4 (1h 17m 5s):
No, I think the Coan brothers we're working with those folks throughout a lot of it. I, I think, I think a lot of it in film is probably a little bit more invisible. I think there's a lot of invisible hands on every movie. And so like, you have no idea who gave notes on the script. You have no idea who came in to watch and edit and you know, get into Avid and play around with it. Like it's, it's incredibly community based. I also can only speak from my experience, but like, I think we're all just kind of hopping around on each other's projects. And yeah, Another invisible one that I think of is like, you know, the, the Shafty Brothers, is it Josh or Bennys?
4 (1h 17m 48s):
I can't remember which one is operating Boom throughout the whole movie. So like, the directors listening to the audio as it comes in. Cause he, that's how he feels the most connected to it. And so, yeah, I think I don't, I definitely am hoping that my career looks like that. I mean, that, that is the life that I hope for myself is one where it's just a bunch of dumb friends, like making interesting movies, you know, just like goofy people making fun stuff.
2 (1h 18m 23s):
Yeah. Is there a place where people can see your shorts and stuff? I, I know you mentioned the streaming service that has your film, but what about your other stuff? Is there a place where the public can watch your work?
4 (1h 18m 37s):
Yeah, everything's on my website. It's Ryan Wagner stuff.com. Www w wagner stuff
1 (1h 18m 45s):
Com. That's Ryan, That's is that Stand Worldwide Web. Worldwide Web. Is that what that is? Okay.
4 (1h 18m 50s):
Yeah. Yeah. I just learned about, it's like amazing. Have you,
1 (1h 18m 53s):
It's like this thing, it's like a big deal. It's
4 (1h 18m 56s):
Insane. Some of this stuff is
1 (1h 18m 58s):
Insane. I, I mean, I just am so looking forward to seeing the kind of work you make and I'm gonna check out your film. It's every other week it's called or no?
4 (1h 19m 7s):
Yeah, every other week is Spark
1 (1h 19m 9s):
When I came out. Okay. I'm gonna try to find that. And then every
4 (1h 19m 12s):
Other week is on Vimeo. Oh, Vimeo. That one was, that was a Vimeo Staff tech, so you can see it on.
1 (1h 19m 19s):
Oh, that's exciting.
2 (1h 19m 22s):
Okay. Okay. Staff pick. I love it. I cannot wait. I cannot wait to see it. And we'll put it on your, we'll put it on our socials too, so other people who listen to this have easy access to it. Thank you. This has been a beautiful conversation.
0 (1h 19m 33s):
Thank you so much.
2 (1h 19m 44s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survived. Theater School is an Undeniable Inc. Production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina PCI are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our website@undeniableriders.com. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.