WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:07.620 Matt Abrahams: Collaboration is critical to teaming, but how do we do it so 00:00:07.620 --> 00:00:09.720 that we feel effective and unburdened? 00:00:11.520 --> 00:00:14.940 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:14.940 --> 00:00:16.650 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:20.490 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:23.070 Today I look forward to chatting with Molly Sands. 00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:27.270 Molly is a behavioral scientist and the head of the Teamwork Lab at Atlassian. 00:00:27.510 --> 00:00:31.440 She and her team conduct research into best practices for high performing teams. 00:00:31.710 --> 00:00:35.640 Her work focuses on understanding how teams can collaborate more effectively in 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:40.710 a distributed and hybrid work environment, especially in the world of AI. 00:00:41.220 --> 00:00:42.060 Welcome Molly. 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:45.330 I have long admired the work of your team and I'm really excited to have 00:00:45.330 --> 00:00:46.740 a conversation about the work you do. 00:00:46.890 --> 00:00:47.820 Molly Sands: Thank you so much. 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:48.810 I'm excited to be here. 00:00:48.870 --> 00:00:49.920 Matt Abrahams: Okay, shall we get started? 00:00:49.980 --> 00:00:50.550 Molly Sands: Let's do it. 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:51.180 Matt Abrahams: Awesome. 00:00:51.570 --> 00:00:55.470 So the Teamwork Lab studies many aspects of teaming and productivity. 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:58.349 How do you determine what to study and do you have some guiding 00:00:58.349 --> 00:00:59.845 principles for the work that you do? 00:01:00.495 --> 00:01:03.735 Molly Sands: I am really focused on a few things in our work. 00:01:04.125 --> 00:01:08.115 We have a couple key beliefs about teamwork, and one is that people 00:01:08.115 --> 00:01:12.075 can accomplish a lot more together when they work well together. 00:01:12.345 --> 00:01:15.615 And the other is that in most companies today, it is way 00:01:15.615 --> 00:01:17.265 too hard to work together. 00:01:18.135 --> 00:01:23.055 And the more that we can get on the same page about what we're trying to 00:01:23.115 --> 00:01:27.315 achieve together and how we're going to get there, the more effective we are. 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:32.240 Those are sort of my guiding philosophies around how do teams work 00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:36.949 effectively together, and we anchor our research in a couple areas. 00:01:37.039 --> 00:01:41.119 So one, my team, the Teamwork Lab at Atlassian, we study 00:01:41.330 --> 00:01:42.590 teams across the world. 00:01:42.630 --> 00:01:45.660 So we will survey thousands of teams. 00:01:45.660 --> 00:01:46.920 We'll talk to leaders. 00:01:46.949 --> 00:01:50.220 We'll do lots of different types of research, and then we also 00:01:50.220 --> 00:01:51.899 study teams within the company. 00:01:52.110 --> 00:01:56.310 And within Atlassian, we're really able to get in the mix with teams 00:01:56.310 --> 00:02:00.149 and change how they work and measure lots of different types of outcomes. 00:02:00.509 --> 00:02:04.380 And so from those two approaches, we get a really good sense of what 00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:08.310 are the challenges that most people are facing today and that all of our 00:02:08.310 --> 00:02:12.070 customers really care about and need us to come up with better solutions for. 00:02:12.220 --> 00:02:16.055 And then we also have this amazing experimental pool, and so we can start 00:02:16.055 --> 00:02:20.915 to really change ways of working and then see how that impacts outcomes. 00:02:21.245 --> 00:02:24.215 Matt Abrahams: In that research that you do, at least trying to identify 00:02:24.215 --> 00:02:27.275 what the big challenges, are there two or three that stand out in terms 00:02:27.275 --> 00:02:29.405 of what really teams struggle with? 00:02:29.585 --> 00:02:31.930 Molly Sands: Yeah, so, goals. 00:02:32.230 --> 00:02:37.660 What actually matters is huge for teams and how people invest 00:02:37.660 --> 00:02:39.940 their time in companies today. 00:02:40.180 --> 00:02:45.490 And so we'd spend a lot of time studying and thinking about how do we get clear 00:02:45.490 --> 00:02:49.690 on what we're trying to do and how do we invest our times in ways that are 00:02:49.720 --> 00:02:55.230 actually meaningful and help us do real work and not just talk about work. 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.980 Matt Abrahams: Do you have suggestions for how people can help identify their goals? 00:02:58.980 --> 00:03:01.830 And then I know something you spend a lot of time on is alignment, getting 00:03:01.830 --> 00:03:03.360 people aligned to those goals. 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:06.030 'Cause I've been in several organizations where I thought we were working in 00:03:06.030 --> 00:03:08.640 one direction and it turns out others thought we were working in another. 00:03:08.910 --> 00:03:11.610 So how do we determine what those goals are and how do we 00:03:11.610 --> 00:03:12.900 get alignment towards them? 00:03:13.210 --> 00:03:16.720 Molly Sands: So I think a lot of the best work happens when 00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:19.210 you start by asking why, right? 00:03:19.210 --> 00:03:23.110 And you are really focused on what are we, what do we want 00:03:23.170 --> 00:03:25.240 the true outcome to look like? 00:03:25.329 --> 00:03:30.520 And in a lot of companies and a lot of teams today, people get activities 00:03:30.610 --> 00:03:32.170 confused with outcomes, right? 00:03:32.175 --> 00:03:35.480 It's less about what is the business problem we're solving, what is the 00:03:35.480 --> 00:03:38.720 customer problem we're solving, and more about what activities 00:03:38.720 --> 00:03:39.890 are we doing to get there? 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:44.750 And so getting really clear about the problems is really the first step 00:03:44.750 --> 00:03:50.240 to having a great strategy and then being more explicit about how are 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:54.140 we going to get there, and getting that input, getting people to really 00:03:54.140 --> 00:03:56.390 understand why is this a problem? 00:03:56.390 --> 00:03:57.800 Why do we wanna solve it? 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.320 And how are we uniquely positioned to do that? 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:05.255 All of that product thinking, is really how I think about it, tends to 00:04:05.255 --> 00:04:07.834 help teams get much better aligned. 00:04:07.984 --> 00:04:10.625 And then being explicit, right? 00:04:10.625 --> 00:04:13.924 There's so many moments, you just referenced times of thinking, well, 00:04:13.924 --> 00:04:17.644 I thought we were all on the same page, but I never said it out loud. 00:04:17.644 --> 00:04:21.005 And your colleagues and your teammates are not mind readers. 00:04:21.005 --> 00:04:25.715 So the more that we can really map this out together, the more 00:04:25.715 --> 00:04:27.515 effective our teams tend to be. 00:04:27.945 --> 00:04:32.205 Matt Abrahams: I think taking the time to really reflect on what is important 00:04:32.205 --> 00:04:35.415 here, what's the problem we're solving, why are we doing this, and then making 00:04:35.415 --> 00:04:39.225 it explicit by documenting it and communicating it, are really important. 00:04:39.225 --> 00:04:41.955 And I have found in the practice that I do, and when I go into 00:04:41.955 --> 00:04:46.255 organizations, having people just share what is the goal and have 00:04:46.255 --> 00:04:47.935 everybody give their version of it. 00:04:48.055 --> 00:04:50.695 People are often very surprised that they weren't aligned. 00:04:50.695 --> 00:04:54.745 So explicitly not just providing it, but making sure people share their 00:04:54.745 --> 00:04:56.515 take on it can be really helpful too. 00:04:56.575 --> 00:04:57.055 Molly Sands: Yeah. 00:04:57.055 --> 00:05:00.715 I always tell managers or anyone that's leading a project, one of 00:05:00.715 --> 00:05:04.675 the first things you should do is ask everyone to tell you what they 00:05:04.675 --> 00:05:05.815 think you're trying to accomplish. 00:05:06.085 --> 00:05:07.795 Matt Abrahams: And a powerful question I found, I'd be curious 00:05:07.795 --> 00:05:10.645 to get your input on it, is asking people, what does success look like? 00:05:10.645 --> 00:05:12.535 What does success of this team look like? 00:05:13.185 --> 00:05:17.145 Molly Sands: We actually start every project we do in our platform, we 00:05:17.145 --> 00:05:19.815 have a way that people can document this, but what are we doing? 00:05:20.055 --> 00:05:21.045 Why are we doing it? 00:05:21.285 --> 00:05:22.635 And what does success look like? 00:05:22.905 --> 00:05:26.565 And just by asking those three questions, and writing something up 00:05:26.565 --> 00:05:30.945 that everyone working on that project reads and thinks about and gives 00:05:30.945 --> 00:05:35.715 feedback on, that is such a fast way to actually accelerate everything 00:05:35.715 --> 00:05:37.155 that happens from that point on. 00:05:37.385 --> 00:05:38.195 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, what are we doing? 00:05:38.195 --> 00:05:39.155 Why is it important? 00:05:39.155 --> 00:05:40.565 And what does success look like? 00:05:40.565 --> 00:05:41.855 Really important questions. 00:05:42.005 --> 00:05:44.585 I think another important question, and I'm sure this won't surprise you, is 00:05:44.585 --> 00:05:46.985 I'd love to talk about AI and AI's role. 00:05:46.985 --> 00:05:49.535 It's certainly affecting work, period, but also in teams. 00:05:50.015 --> 00:05:53.915 Your research shows a shift towards using AI as a collaborator. 00:05:53.975 --> 00:05:56.075 Can you help us understand what that looks like? 00:05:56.255 --> 00:05:59.555 What recommendations do you have to leverage AI to help 00:05:59.895 --> 00:06:01.484 teams be more successful? 00:06:01.635 --> 00:06:06.015 Molly Sands: One of the things we saw earliest as AI was really taking hold 00:06:06.075 --> 00:06:11.445 of how we do work was that people's mindset around it mattered in a huge way. 00:06:11.745 --> 00:06:16.815 And so if you really think of AI as a collaborator, rather than just a doer, 00:06:17.275 --> 00:06:21.924 but you're actually thinking about AI more like a teammate and someone that 00:06:21.924 --> 00:06:26.005 can push your thinking forward and that you can go back and forth with. 00:06:26.065 --> 00:06:30.045 Those are the people that are seeing much better outcomes, and 00:06:30.045 --> 00:06:31.385 that's across a lot of things. 00:06:31.405 --> 00:06:34.375 So they're seeing more efficiency in the work they're doing. 00:06:34.375 --> 00:06:39.025 They're able to do tasks faster, but those folks are also seeing better 00:06:39.025 --> 00:06:43.465 quality work and their teams are viewing them as more innovative. 00:06:43.794 --> 00:06:49.050 And some of the promise of AI that we're all excited about is really coming 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:54.180 true for the people that start to think about AI in that collaborative mindset, 00:06:54.270 --> 00:06:58.680 rather than simply as, oh, well, I can delegate and automate a few things. 00:06:58.950 --> 00:07:01.560 Matt Abrahams: Can you give us a few examples of what true 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:03.630 collaboration with AI might look like? 00:07:03.870 --> 00:07:05.190 Does it have a seat at the table? 00:07:05.190 --> 00:07:06.990 Is it in the Zoom meeting with me? 00:07:06.990 --> 00:07:08.730 Am I asking it questions like a colleague? 00:07:08.730 --> 00:07:09.540 What does that look like? 00:07:09.739 --> 00:07:13.429 Molly Sands: So I think it is great to think of AI as a quick way to get some 00:07:13.429 --> 00:07:18.020 information that you need, but it's also about that back and forth interaction. 00:07:18.140 --> 00:07:24.049 So actually creating things, and not just taking the first output that you 00:07:24.049 --> 00:07:29.690 get, but actually going back and forth, debating, asking questions, having AI 00:07:29.690 --> 00:07:34.130 push your thinking and pushing back too, saying, I don't think this is right. 00:07:34.330 --> 00:07:35.740 I know about this other thing. 00:07:35.980 --> 00:07:37.360 How do we incorporate this? 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.900 And much in the way you would go about collaborating with other 00:07:40.900 --> 00:07:43.570 people where it is a back and forth. 00:07:43.900 --> 00:07:47.260 Matt Abrahams: We had a really insightful episode we did with Jeremy Utley, where 00:07:47.260 --> 00:07:51.700 we talked about how treating AI as a conversation partner, not just as a search 00:07:51.700 --> 00:07:53.910 engine, really can change the dynamic. 00:07:53.910 --> 00:07:56.880 And it sounds like that's what you're advocating for is really engage in 00:07:56.880 --> 00:08:00.540 dialogue, talk to it, and challenge it, and it will help you benefit. 00:08:00.780 --> 00:08:03.810 Can you give us an example of using AI as a tool to help you? 00:08:04.050 --> 00:08:07.770 I read about, or listened to an episode of something where Atlassian has built 00:08:07.770 --> 00:08:12.620 an onboarding tool out of AI to help people get started and be more productive. 00:08:12.980 --> 00:08:18.290 Molly Sands: Yeah, we've had great success with onboarding with an AI buddy. 00:08:18.380 --> 00:08:24.440 So we built what we call, her name is NORA Atlassian onboarding Rovo agent. 00:08:24.740 --> 00:08:31.370 And NORA has access to all of the data that we have about policies and people 00:08:31.370 --> 00:08:37.875 programs and how we run our company, how people get set up in our systems. 00:08:38.175 --> 00:08:43.785 And when our new hires join, they have a variety of touchpoints with other 00:08:43.785 --> 00:08:48.705 humans, but we also give them access to NORA and say, Hey, if you have any 00:08:48.705 --> 00:08:51.800 of those basic HR questions, ask her. 00:08:52.010 --> 00:08:54.860 If you have any questions about how things operate in this company, if 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:58.699 you're wondering who to ask about this, if you don't know how to file a ticket. 00:08:58.910 --> 00:09:02.780 Just all of those logistical things that come up as you're joining. 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:05.750 And you don't really wanna go to your brand new manager and be 00:09:05.750 --> 00:09:08.610 like, oh, I have this like really annoying list of twenty-five 00:09:08.630 --> 00:09:10.699 questions about logistical things. 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:15.375 You wanna be showing up as strategic in those conversations, and NORA 00:09:15.375 --> 00:09:19.635 is your buddy for everything that you need, and people feel a lot 00:09:19.635 --> 00:09:21.795 more comfortable asking questions. 00:09:21.824 --> 00:09:25.334 They don't worry about how AI is going to perceive those questions, so 00:09:25.334 --> 00:09:27.285 they really ask everything they want. 00:09:27.464 --> 00:09:32.295 And we've also found that this has vastly increased how much people 00:09:32.295 --> 00:09:36.915 use AI as a collaborator, as they onboard into their new role. 00:09:37.464 --> 00:09:40.780 Matt Abrahams: So it's an on-ramp to helping them feel comfortable using AI 00:09:40.780 --> 00:09:42.160 as a tool to help them with their work. 00:09:42.160 --> 00:09:42.730 I like that. 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:43.330 Molly Sands: Yeah. 00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:46.690 And so we've seen a really strong relationship there that just this 00:09:46.690 --> 00:09:50.260 initial touch point sets that expectation that this is a way that 00:09:50.260 --> 00:09:53.620 we work in this company and this is how you're going to get information. 00:09:54.075 --> 00:09:56.175 Matt Abrahams: I know when I would onboard on companies, I would always 00:09:56.175 --> 00:09:58.935 feel so embarrassed 'cause I couldn't remember something I was taught 00:09:58.935 --> 00:10:00.315 and I'd have to go back and ask. 00:10:00.315 --> 00:10:02.865 And I feel like I'm trying to set a good impression and now everybody 00:10:02.865 --> 00:10:04.275 thinks I can't remember anything. 00:10:04.425 --> 00:10:06.225 To have a tool like that would be helpful. 00:10:06.225 --> 00:10:10.995 So finding niche needs and building AI tools to help, not only help 00:10:10.995 --> 00:10:13.725 with whatever that need was, but it also helps people feel more 00:10:13.725 --> 00:10:16.510 comfortable using AI as a collaborator. 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.660 Molly Sands: Yeah, and I think it's important for companies to think about 00:10:19.660 --> 00:10:22.090 where they have really robust knowledge. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.320 So AI works the best when it has access to the right information, 00:10:26.470 --> 00:10:31.600 and so in HR policies tend to be really carefully documented. 00:10:31.810 --> 00:10:36.525 You actually do need to have good resources for any new employee about 00:10:36.525 --> 00:10:41.325 what your benefits look like, about how people manage different systems, 00:10:41.325 --> 00:10:43.305 about how they integrate into teams. 00:10:43.665 --> 00:10:46.245 We're able to pretty easily create customized onboarding 00:10:46.245 --> 00:10:48.525 plans using AI as well. 00:10:48.735 --> 00:10:51.730 And so when all that information is available, you 00:10:51.730 --> 00:10:53.800 can easily build on top of it. 00:10:53.800 --> 00:10:57.970 And so I usually encourage leaders to think about where are pockets 00:10:57.970 --> 00:11:03.280 within your company that you have that great data already there, and 00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:06.265 to think about those as use cases where you can get some clear ones. 00:11:07.094 --> 00:11:10.305 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, clear, easy pilot wins and really get that momentum going. 00:11:10.305 --> 00:11:11.444 I appreciate that a lot. 00:11:11.925 --> 00:11:15.885 As you and I talked about before we came on the air, meetings can be really 00:11:15.885 --> 00:11:20.084 useful for teaming, but many of us struggle with the meetings we have. 00:11:20.084 --> 00:11:21.135 We feel like they're too many. 00:11:21.135 --> 00:11:23.175 We feel like we're victimized by poor meetings. 00:11:23.385 --> 00:11:24.464 They zap our time. 00:11:24.790 --> 00:11:27.969 I know you have done research into meetings and actually at 00:11:28.060 --> 00:11:30.189 Atlassian, you guys have some really interesting approaches. 00:11:30.189 --> 00:11:33.219 I know you use Loom videos for asynchronous updates. 00:11:33.430 --> 00:11:36.010 You have what are called page led meetings. 00:11:36.250 --> 00:11:38.709 Can you define these two approaches because I think they're really 00:11:38.709 --> 00:11:40.269 unique and could be helpful for many. 00:11:40.510 --> 00:11:44.410 And then what other advice do you have generally in terms of how we meet better, 00:11:44.410 --> 00:11:46.510 when we meet better, who we meet with. 00:11:46.810 --> 00:11:49.810 So I'd love to get specific on what you all have done, because I think it 00:11:49.810 --> 00:11:53.319 transfers to many people, and I just love generally what your research has found. 00:11:53.750 --> 00:11:56.090 Molly Sands: Meetings are one of the biggest challenges 00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:57.230 in people's jobs, right? 00:11:57.230 --> 00:12:00.740 Anytime that we run research about what's holding people back from 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:03.800 achieving what they want to at work, meetings are the number one thing. 00:12:03.860 --> 00:12:07.730 It's the biggest barrier to productivity, but it's essential 00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:08.900 that we talk to each other. 00:12:08.930 --> 00:12:10.850 That's how we come up with great ideas. 00:12:10.850 --> 00:12:12.110 That's how we create together. 00:12:12.110 --> 00:12:14.300 There are so many things that are so important about that. 00:12:14.540 --> 00:12:20.750 And in the last few years, as companies have embraced much more distributed 00:12:20.750 --> 00:12:25.405 global work, people have brought a lot of the meeting habits, that we did not 00:12:25.405 --> 00:12:27.235 love in the office, online with them. 00:12:27.505 --> 00:12:31.085 And so now we're all stuck in these back to back meetings all day long. 00:12:31.635 --> 00:12:36.085 And what we really think about is taking control of our time and 00:12:36.085 --> 00:12:41.155 solving the problems that meetings are supposed to solve in different, more 00:12:41.155 --> 00:12:42.625 efficient and more effective ways. 00:12:42.865 --> 00:12:46.105 And so I think people should think about having kind of three 00:12:46.105 --> 00:12:47.725 types of time in their day. 00:12:48.145 --> 00:12:50.395 One is time for deep work. 00:12:50.455 --> 00:12:55.675 You really do need time to think, to write, to create, depending on what your 00:12:55.675 --> 00:12:59.905 job is, that time will look different, but the time where you're using your brain in 00:12:59.905 --> 00:13:03.715 the most powerful ways, and now you've got AI as a partner during that time as well. 00:13:03.955 --> 00:13:05.755 And then we should have meetings. 00:13:05.845 --> 00:13:10.335 And at Atlassian we do page led meetings, and we've done a lot of research 00:13:10.335 --> 00:13:16.335 on this idea, and the basic idea is that you put together a really clear 00:13:16.605 --> 00:13:21.585 synopsis of what everyone needs to know as context to have a conversation. 00:13:21.705 --> 00:13:24.615 This works really well when you're trying to make a decision, when you're 00:13:24.615 --> 00:13:30.885 trying to align people, when you want feedback on a perspective or path forward. 00:13:31.245 --> 00:13:35.025 So any of those kinds of meetings where you really are bringing a group together 00:13:35.025 --> 00:13:39.870 to say, let's chart the path forward or make sure everyone's at least aware of it. 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:43.890 Those moments work really great for this page led meeting concept. 00:13:44.280 --> 00:13:46.050 And the pages should be short. 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.780 Pages should be no more than a five minute read. 00:13:49.020 --> 00:13:51.600 You don't want people reading for hours together. 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.565 Matt Abrahams: And do people read those when they all convene together, is the 00:13:54.565 --> 00:13:56.215 expectation that you read them in advance? 00:13:56.215 --> 00:13:58.705 Because I know Amazon does in the room, we all read. 00:13:58.975 --> 00:14:00.535 Molly Sands: Yes, we do in the room as well. 00:14:00.805 --> 00:14:02.005 The pre-reads are tough. 00:14:02.005 --> 00:14:02.995 People don't do them. 00:14:03.085 --> 00:14:04.645 You're not sure if people did them. 00:14:04.855 --> 00:14:09.655 You maybe did it, but it was four days ago and now that's not top of mind for you. 00:14:09.835 --> 00:14:13.885 So it's a great way at the beginning to just set the context for everyone 00:14:14.095 --> 00:14:15.685 and we ask people to comment. 00:14:16.295 --> 00:14:18.064 Matt Abrahams: So you said there were three ways of using time. 00:14:18.064 --> 00:14:19.234 I'd love to revisit those. 00:14:19.234 --> 00:14:22.895 And then, I hate update meetings and I know you all have an interesting 00:14:22.895 --> 00:14:25.895 way of getting that information that I think everybody should consider. 00:14:26.074 --> 00:14:26.555 Molly Sands: Yes. 00:14:26.584 --> 00:14:26.765 Okay. 00:14:26.765 --> 00:14:27.994 So three ways of using time. 00:14:28.234 --> 00:14:33.704 One is traditional meetings, another is deep work, and the third 00:14:33.854 --> 00:14:39.959 is, and this sounds so silly, but collaboration, more fluid collaboration. 00:14:40.410 --> 00:14:45.600 And what we've seen in people trying to fix meetings is that some teams 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.660 have shifted to way too much structure. 00:14:48.689 --> 00:14:52.709 And so every time that you're bringing people together to talk, it is like 00:14:52.709 --> 00:14:57.780 very agenda led and someone is giving a presentation and that's not the moment 00:14:57.780 --> 00:14:59.610 where you can really create together. 00:14:59.995 --> 00:15:03.385 And so, especially if you're working on distributed teams where people are 00:15:03.385 --> 00:15:08.995 in lots of different locations, having these more fluid moments where you can 00:15:08.995 --> 00:15:11.694 come together and really just work. 00:15:11.964 --> 00:15:16.105 That could be pair programming, that could be writing a page together, that 00:15:16.105 --> 00:15:20.995 could be doing a creative brief or coming up with concepts, brainstorming. 00:15:21.275 --> 00:15:25.715 All these different ways that we really do work together, and I think people 00:15:25.715 --> 00:15:29.975 need to start to think about that as a category that is different from a formal 00:15:29.975 --> 00:15:34.745 structured meeting, but make a lot more time for that kind of collaborative work. 00:15:35.015 --> 00:15:38.345 Matt Abrahams: So it's this notion of deep time where you're by yourself, maybe with 00:15:38.345 --> 00:15:40.655 an AI collaborator, working on something. 00:15:40.655 --> 00:15:46.200 It's the typical, traditional, structured meeting led with pages where you all 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.310 sync up on what it is we're talking about, and then the more collaborative 00:15:50.310 --> 00:15:55.290 ideative time where people come together and can really have the freedom to 00:15:55.290 --> 00:15:56.490 do the work that needs to be done. 00:15:56.550 --> 00:15:57.240 Molly Sands: Exactly. 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.810 And in order to have time to do all of those things, you cannot be in 00:16:00.810 --> 00:16:03.990 back to back standing meetings where you were giving status updates. 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:07.170 And people don't have meetings for no reason, even if they're 00:16:07.170 --> 00:16:10.725 not effective, which most of the time they tell us they are not. 00:16:11.085 --> 00:16:14.205 They're trying to solve a problem and usually that problem is 00:16:14.205 --> 00:16:16.005 getting or sharing information. 00:16:16.215 --> 00:16:19.845 And so we do a lot of asynchronous video. 00:16:19.875 --> 00:16:25.365 We have a tool called Loom that we use, which lets you record yourself talking. 00:16:25.485 --> 00:16:30.405 You can screen record, you can just record a video of you, and that captures a lot 00:16:30.405 --> 00:16:34.040 more signal than simply a written update. 00:16:34.340 --> 00:16:38.060 We find that people feel more connected to other people when they communicate 00:16:38.060 --> 00:16:42.860 through video, and that there's a lot of benefits to giving more of 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:45.770 that personal touch to information. 00:16:45.950 --> 00:16:51.410 And so we ask people to usually do their updates or status updates, either through 00:16:51.415 --> 00:16:56.005 writing or through Loom videos, depending on how much context they need to share. 00:16:56.214 --> 00:16:59.334 And we align all of our work to goals. 00:16:59.485 --> 00:17:02.395 So there's a whole system and infrastructure around goals. 00:17:02.694 --> 00:17:04.075 What are teams working on? 00:17:04.165 --> 00:17:05.815 Where do you have shared goals? 00:17:06.085 --> 00:17:08.935 And this creates a lot of that clarity that we were talking about 00:17:08.935 --> 00:17:12.275 in the beginning, right, of what are we trying to achieve together. 00:17:12.605 --> 00:17:18.395 And just repeatedly having people look at and remind themselves of that information 00:17:18.395 --> 00:17:23.645 through our ways of sharing updates is huge for staying on the same page about 00:17:23.645 --> 00:17:25.205 what we're really trying to achieve. 00:17:25.595 --> 00:17:29.435 Matt Abrahams: I really like that idea of recording the update. 00:17:29.825 --> 00:17:33.635 Not only do you get more information, as you said, more signal, but people can take 00:17:33.635 --> 00:17:34.985 in that information when they need it. 00:17:35.635 --> 00:17:38.575 So I will often coach people in the organizations I go into where 00:17:38.575 --> 00:17:41.425 people are just so frustrated with these long update meetings where 00:17:41.425 --> 00:17:43.255 maybe ten percent is useful to you. 00:17:43.405 --> 00:17:47.515 Have everybody record their sessions in a structured way, so you know, you're 00:17:47.515 --> 00:17:51.355 getting the same type of information and the requirement is that you just 00:17:51.355 --> 00:17:52.765 watch it in advance of the meeting. 00:17:52.765 --> 00:17:55.225 So when you come together, you can actually have a discussion about what 00:17:55.225 --> 00:17:58.345 you learned rather than wasting the time of hearing everybody's update. 00:17:58.375 --> 00:17:59.665 And I really like that. 00:17:59.725 --> 00:18:03.625 And I also like what you said about tying these into the broader goal and always 00:18:03.955 --> 00:18:06.145 reminding people how these things connect. 00:18:06.475 --> 00:18:10.375 So I think those are very useful tools to help people be more efficient 00:18:10.375 --> 00:18:11.935 and effective in their meetings. 00:18:11.935 --> 00:18:14.274 So the idea is not get rid of all the meetings. 00:18:14.274 --> 00:18:18.925 The idea is maximize the utility of the meetings for what they're meant for. 00:18:18.925 --> 00:18:19.735 So thank you for that. 00:18:20.879 --> 00:18:23.610 So Molly, before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions. 00:18:23.610 --> 00:18:26.670 One I make up just for you and two, I've been asking everybody for as 00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:28.290 long as this podcast has gone on. 00:18:28.320 --> 00:18:28.980 Are you up for that? 00:18:29.430 --> 00:18:30.270 Molly Sands: I'm up for that. 00:18:30.570 --> 00:18:32.670 Matt Abrahams: I am curious, what is something that your team is 00:18:32.670 --> 00:18:35.355 currently studying or working on that has you really excited? 00:18:36.510 --> 00:18:40.230 Molly Sands: We are working on a lot of research about how you 00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:42.540 really make AI part of the team. 00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:47.850 So we see people are using AI more and more at work and in their personal 00:18:47.850 --> 00:18:53.895 lives, but how do we solve team level challenges and problems, the things that 00:18:53.895 --> 00:18:55.965 are really hard about working together. 00:18:56.265 --> 00:18:59.805 And so we are doing some really interesting interventions right now with 00:18:59.805 --> 00:19:05.685 teams where we embed AI not just as an individual collaborator for everyone on 00:19:05.685 --> 00:19:09.675 the team, but also into some of these team processes and ways of working. 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:13.035 And I'm very excited to see more of what we learned from that. 00:19:13.285 --> 00:19:15.685 Matt Abrahams: I would love for you when you start getting results to have you 00:19:15.685 --> 00:19:18.595 share some of that, and we will try to get that information out because I see 00:19:18.595 --> 00:19:21.985 that as a big unlock, but I also see it as something that could be a real challenge. 00:19:21.985 --> 00:19:24.205 So it'd be really interesting to find what you've learned. 00:19:24.565 --> 00:19:25.375 Question number two. 00:19:25.375 --> 00:19:28.465 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:29.085 --> 00:19:32.475 Molly Sands: I really admire Molly Graham. 00:19:32.745 --> 00:19:38.205 She, I think, is a fantastic communicator in really synthesizing some of the 00:19:38.205 --> 00:19:43.215 core things that are hard about work and putting analogies behind 00:19:43.215 --> 00:19:45.165 them that make them very memorable. 00:19:45.285 --> 00:19:47.985 And I've been really impressed with her work. 00:19:48.015 --> 00:19:53.055 She's most well known for the giveaway your Legos piece that she's written about 00:19:53.055 --> 00:19:55.665 how to scale in companies and how to grow. 00:19:55.995 --> 00:20:01.185 But I think all of her content is so actionable and memorable. 00:20:01.875 --> 00:20:03.105 Matt Abrahams: So I like that it's actionable. 00:20:03.105 --> 00:20:06.195 That's what we're all about is practical and tactical actions. 00:20:06.615 --> 00:20:10.125 But it sounds like the ability to synthesize and to make things accessible 00:20:10.125 --> 00:20:13.575 through things like analogies, which are wonderful skills for anybody 00:20:13.575 --> 00:20:15.015 hoping to be a good communicator. 00:20:15.555 --> 00:20:19.095 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:20:19.095 --> 00:20:21.255 successful communication recipe? 00:20:21.899 --> 00:20:23.340 Molly Sands: Making it resonant. 00:20:23.550 --> 00:20:27.780 You want people to immediately feel what you're talking about. 00:20:28.110 --> 00:20:28.680 Clarity. 00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:35.610 And I think passion, when you care about the topic, when you care about 00:20:35.610 --> 00:20:39.450 what your message is, that really comes through in the way you communicate. 00:20:40.139 --> 00:20:43.500 Matt Abrahams: Making it resonant, relevant, salient, really important. 00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:44.370 Being clear. 00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:46.020 You've talked about clarity a lot today. 00:20:46.020 --> 00:20:48.720 Clarity of goal, alignment to goal, clarity of messages. 00:20:48.840 --> 00:20:49.830 And then passion. 00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:53.350 And you clearly are passionate about helping people collaborate 00:20:53.350 --> 00:20:54.790 and work better in teams. 00:20:54.790 --> 00:20:56.290 Thank you for the best practices. 00:20:56.590 --> 00:21:00.520 Thank you for helping us understand the details of what goes into 00:21:00.520 --> 00:21:04.360 collaboration and effective work, and thank you for your time and helping 00:21:04.360 --> 00:21:06.220 all of us be better in our teaming. 00:21:06.730 --> 00:21:07.030 Molly Sands: Yeah. 00:21:07.030 --> 00:21:09.700 Thank you so much for having me and for this wonderful discussion. 00:21:12.010 --> 00:21:13.810 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:13.810 --> 00:21:15.760 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:15.820 --> 00:21:18.040 To learn more about teams and teaming, please listen to 00:21:18.040 --> 00:21:20.290 episode 242 with Colin Fisher. 00:21:20.835 --> 00:21:25.755 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:26.055 --> 00:21:27.495 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:27.555 --> 00:21:29.985 With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:30.435 --> 00:21:33.435 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:33.585 --> 00:21:35.535 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:35.865 --> 00:21:38.865 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:21:39.165 --> 00:21:43.245 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive 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