Hello, fellow humans. Yes, of course. We're all humans here. And welcome to Dear Watchers, an Omniversal comic book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse.
We are traveling with you through the stories and the worlds that make up an omniverse of fictional realities we all love. And your watchers on this journey might be me, Guido.
And it's definitely 100% me, Rob. Yes.
Although scroll names all have like X's and K's.
Yes. And Apostrophes and everything like that. And we are taking a break from our Age of Apocalypse coverage. Last week was part one. Next will be part two. Yes, go. Listen. But this week is something else entirely, though still marvel, so maybe not entirely entirely. And before we begin today's trip, Guido, what's new in our little section of the multiverse?
Well, last week we talked Barbie. This week. We saw Oppenheimer. So just talking that because two great comic recommendations we put out there on social media, one actually a, uh, listener reminded us of, so we recommended people read Barefoot Gen, a great manga that was written by a Hiroshima survivor. And so it's a really cool, ongoing story that's not totally autobiographical, but it has ten volumes. And when we recommended that, someone reminded us that one of my favorite writers ever, Jonathan Hickman, wrote Manhattan Projects, which is Kooky and Wild, and I'm currently rereading it. You might read it for the first time. Maybe we'll even cover it at some point, because it is a alternate history with Oppenheimer as a main character, and it is just nuts. So I'd recommend people check those out if you're seeing the movie or haven't or won't or didn't or did, whatever. And our summer of giveaways continues, so keep listening. Maybe today is our next one, and we're getting ready for the fall, which is a fun time of year, and it's con season for those of us on the East Coast, and so keep helping us grow and spreading the word and telling people at your local comic shop to listen to us. Thank you.
And happy Halloween. Getting there.
Scroll Halloween.
Scroll Halloween. If you are joining us for the first time, we have three parts of our journey through the multiverse today origins of the story, exploring multiversity, and pondering possibilities. Thank you all for joining us on.
Today'S journey, and remember to leave a review wherever you're listening.
And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode 108, and let's check out what's happening in the Omniverse with our travels to today's alternate universe. And today, we pause our longtime covert takeover of Earth to find out the answer to the question, uh, what if the Skrulls succeeded in their secret invasion?
All right, this is Earth, 10 00:21. I can't quite discern why it doesn't seem to correlate to the date. I'm, um, not clear. There might be a companion Earth. There's nothing story driven that makes it so. I'm not sure why it's 1021. But it is. And it made one appearance in the anthology book that we're going to discuss today. The book that we read today is something, part of something we've discussed before, where at the end of every year in the early 2000s, marvel would do these what if one shots when there's not an ongoing so this is 2009 and we have this what if secret invasion. What if world war hulk. What if daredevil versus electra. What if astonishing. X men. And what if Spiderman House of M, which we actually discussed way back on episode 27 from January 2022.
Uh, so what is our background with Secret Invasion?
Do you want to start first? Sure. You start.
Yeah. So my background was really the TV show that premiered about six weeks ago. I had heard of Secret Invasion. I did know the basic plot that the Skrulls had infiltrated the Earth and were some of our mightiest heroes. But I had never read the comics. And so really, it was watching the Disney Plus TV show that we'll discuss later this episode. That was really my introduction. And then, of course, reading these comics for today's episode. How about you? You were definitely much more into it than I was.
Yeah, I read it as it was coming out. So I was reading Marvel regularly. Then every week. It was a big event. I was reading New Avengers, which is where all the seeds are planted leading up to it. Civil War is a little bit of a precursor as they explore in that. So I was reading all of that. I was reading tons of Marvel. So I read it as it was coming out. I was a fan and probably reread it one or two times, like when the Omnibus came out and collections. And then, like you watched the Disney Plus series. It has been adapted into some of the more modern cartoons, but I haven't really watched those the kid Avengers one and stuff. So, yeah, uh, I was a big fan of the event. And we'll discuss now if I still am.
I know. And you're looking a little ill, a little green. So maybe we should move on to our first segment, origins of the Story.
Right now on this very show.
You're going to get the answer to all your questions. Our amazing story begins a few years ago. And first up today, it is Secret Invasion issues one through eight from Marvel Comics. This came out June 2008 to January 2009.
And these were all written by Brian Michael Bendis and penciled by Lenol Francis. Yu. Mark Morales, inked, all of them. Colors are mostly Laura Martin, with some help from Emily Warren and Christina Strain. Letters are all by Chris Eliopoulos. Editing is all by Tom Pravort. And if you haven't read this mega event, here's the solicit, because we're going to get into some of the details. And it's also a lot to summarize. So the official solicitation. The shapeshifting alien race known as the Skrulls has recently infiltrated every superpowered organization on Earth with one goal full scale invasion.
It begins with a brutal battle between the new Avengers and the Hand, one that claims Electra's life and reveals that she was a Skrull. What does this mean for Tony Stark and the mighty Avengers? Or his shadowy illuminati.
Soon, the whole Marvel universe will be asking, whom do you trust? As the secret invasion stands revealed and the Skrulls attack Earth, which heroes will be exposed as alien impostors? Can the secret warriors turn the tide? And can anyone stop the Skrull queen Varanki, whoever she is? That's a fun last line of the solicitation. Whoever she is. I get it. It's like which skrull? Like, who is she pretending to be? But it's also like, who is this?
Do we know that character? Yeah.
So that's the solicitation. That's the event. What did you think reading the event for the first time with no tie.
Ins, I really enjoyed it. I think especially highlighted thinking back to the TV show, which we'll cover in a bit, this does many of the things that I kind of wanted the TV show to do, but I think on its own, I think it works really well. I think the one thing I'll say is it's actually very similar experience to me reading this to Age of Apocalypse, which is that I think someone like you, who's much more invested in this world and knows who all these characters are and where they were up to this point, I think you would get a lot more out of it than I would. Do you think that's true?
See, I think that's why I said I was a big fan and why it sort of soured on me, this reading of it, in part because we only read the eight issue event, mhm, but I think to me, that's a poorly executed event, and it was executed that way by design. This is the hot moment of mega events, with Bendis as the architect of most of them, and they have just dozens of tie ins across the whole universe. They are company wide mega events. And so what I found reading just the eight issue core series here was that you're missing a lot of the, um, texture of it in a way that I think it takes away. You don't want to get bogged down in every single side battle and every single side character, but you need more. So it's funny, I was comparing it to Age of Apocalypse and thinking, oh, I'm so glad that in our rereading of Age of Apocalypse or your first reading, we're being so thorough with it, m, because I think this event suffers from with Marvell, for example. The Marvell stuff that's going on in this book is fully explored in other side books. And here there will be barely a page to it. Same thing with even the Secret Warrior showing up, or the Thunderbolts in their role. You can tell reading this, I could just tell. It was so glaringly obvious that Bendis there was stuff set up elsewhere that he's just putting on page and expecting, you know, or he's setting stuff up so that you go read the tie in in between the two issues. And I think I wanted more meat from this because when I first read this in 2008 and nine, I loved this event. I thought it was really cool, in part because it pays off. Also, these seeds he's planted for a while, and the stuff with Electra and the stuff with mockingbird that plays out in the main event. There's cool things that, uh, you're like, oh, wow, or how Varanki tries to convince Tony he is a skrull. And you do start to wonder, as a reader, you're like, could he so there's all these seeds. And I really loved that aspect of it. But rereading just this core title, I felt like a lot of that was lost for me.
Yeah, I think the Marvel point that you mentioned, that's definitely one that feels a little lost in there. And then the other one that you mentioned is the mockingbird. I think if you were probably following Clint Barden's arc over everything else that was happening in comics or up to that point, it would really resonate a lot more. But here, it didn't as much for me just because, oh, I don't know really what his relationship with her or how she had died or where he thought he was at this point. So, for me, yeah, there was a little bit of a disconnect there.
Yeah.
But I do love some of the things like you mentioned, the Tony maybe being a secret skrull. That was a super interesting idea. And I think even the whole Marvel plot as well. I love the idea of the sleeper agents and that there's all these people, including Mockingbird, too, who don't actually know that they're skrulls. And I think that's a really interesting idea. Oh, of course, there's the people who know they are, and they're planning this the whole time, but there's also these people who don't know they are. And at what point do you become more human than skrull, which is kind of the arc with the Marvell character here. So I think that's a really interesting idea that I even want to explore more. HM.
Yeah, it is completely galactica. Uh, totally.
Very much. Yeah, totally. That I wonder even to the point whether Bendis was even influenced by that show, which was happening at the same.
Uh oh, yeah, it was well on its way starting to wrap up, actually. So, yeah, I think there had to be an influence there, so I don't know where else to go with it. There's so many little side stories. Uh, there's a few highlights. I mean, I think for me, the highlights, one of the biggest highlights, the things that will stand in my mind forever is the end, actually, of the first issue. When all those heroes come, when all you see, like, all these Silver Age, Bronze Age costumed heroes walking off the ship in the Savage Land, because that is what makes you like, whoa. Hold on. And it's cool because Phoenix is dead at this point, having Jean Grey show up, and they never do anything with that. Uh, but just that panel and the fact that the issue ends with that, you can be like, oh, my God. Was Gene a skrull? Was the Gene that we knew died a Skrull? Is this actually Jean Gray now? And then you have, like, the 70s Luke Cage, and you have Jessica Jones in her jewel in her jewel outfit. So it's like, oh, my God. Is the Jessica Jones we thought we knew not a real person? Was sheba skrull? You have Miss Marvel, Captain Marvel, Miss Marvel at this point in her old costume. So you have just so many cool elements of that, even though they're not explored. I actually like that they're not explored. They don't have to explore it. They zoom in on Mockingbird and on the characters that matter to us. And of course, ultimately, Spider Woman, who's the most important here, because she know in a really cool, well set up way for years, had been Frankie. So that was the payoff, had been for years, we learn not human. Electra was a little bit of a shorter time that she was a Skrull, but Spider Woman was a Skrull for significant.
But why do you think they chose Spider Woman as the kind of who becomes our main antagonist here? Because it seems like that is a character who's often been a little more off to the side in terms of all Marvel.
Why? It worked because she was sort of rebooted with Spider Woman origin and this title that sort of got her back and got a little attention, and then she's put in the new Avengers, but we find out it's not actually her. So I think she worked for that reason. It would be harder to pull off, like, a Jean Grey or someone being a Skrull for some extended amount of time, because they are in their own books, and so you would then have to deal with that. So I'm assuming Spider Woman just made for a good choice because she's a well known character. She's a relatively popular character. She was increasingly popular because of Bendis's design on her and bringing her back. But there were no implications to saying that it actually wasn't Jessica, uh, for these few years or whatever in continuity time it is, but I think it's a few years in continuity. It's a few years as readers, but I think it's a few years in.
World, too, I think. The other thing for me that I thought was so great about these issues is the art. I think the art is wonderful. And there's always something to look at here because there's so many characters occasionally maybe too many characters for someone like me who doesn't know the young Avengers super well, or whoever is in or.
This modern iteration, the Thunderbolt.
Yeah.
Secret warriors like you saw, uh, Yo Yo and Daisy quake. So the agents of S-H-I-E-L-D characters.
Yeah. So there's a lot going on, but at the same time, in these big battle sequences, of which there's many, I think it's just there's always something to look at. The colors are super bright and it is fun to see all of these different characters interacting. People that you often wouldn't see. And then other versions, uh, even though he's like in the background like a skrull dr. Octopus and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah. Or scroll galactus in one of scroll galactus.
I love the scroll galactus too. Yeah.
So I think that's all think there are times where I found the art busy. I mean, Lionel Francis You is amazing, but there were times when I don't know if it was the panel breakdown or maybe it was I don't mean the inker was consistent at least, but it could have been that I didn't love the inking that was happening. There were just a few pages where I was like, oh, I wish I had a little more breathing room and space in this to take in all of the detail. But yeah, otherwise I like it. Again, it's something I loved then and liked now.
Mhm and what do you think about this religious faction here? Or how religion plays a part in the scrolls kind of manifest destiny here taking over Earth. Because they keep kind of saying that they're doing this for God and there's this chance that they bring back or this phrasing of that, like that you are loved and it's going back to God. M yeah, it's not just that they want to take over the world because that's their goal, is to take over every world. They're really doing this because they feel God is instructing them to do that. So very cult like. Definitely giving me kind of a, uh, Jonestown kind of feel. But what did you think about that?
Well, I think it's a great way of having the Skrull story. First of all, creating more depth to the Skrulls that they aren't all one unified mhm group of millions of beings, and then two, explaining why this is happening. And it's not just, oh, they need a world to live on. That is a part of it. They talk about at one point that all of their worlds have been destroyed through annihilation and through all these other things that have happened. But yeah, I think it offers a little bit more to who they are and why they all are willing to do this and willing to partake in this plan, as opposed to just aliens taking over.
Yeah, I definitely think it gives it greater depth than, oh, uh, all they want to do is take over the world.
I also love you might not have caught this moment. And there is one moment where Varanki says, so Richard says, you killed my family. You're not here to save us. It's all lies. You're here to punish us. And Varanki says, well, you should have thought about that before you found it funny to turn our brothers into cows. And that is an incredible reference to the Skrulls first appearance in Fantastic Four, when the way it gets resolved is that Reed Richards turns the Skrulls that are left into cows and they just show them on a farm at the end of the issue. So it is really cool that she and this faction of more extremist Skrulls are holding on to the way they've been mistreated. And I love that reference and some of those little references, which is all Bendis. I mean, I loved Bendis at the time. I still really like Bendis as a writer. I think he just is such a huge fan and so good at being the architect of these complex stories that pull in pieces but are still fast and engaging.
Mhm.
And then another really important detail, especially for the alternate universe here, is that Norman Osborn saves the day.
Yes. Well, kind of saves time.
Someone else would probably have done it, but he shoots varenki. So he is like a sniper assassin and kills Varanki during the climax of the final battle.
Yeah. And then basically, I think it's our very last panel has set up a new kind of shadow government featuring all.
These other it's kind of, uh, the counter to the Illuminati. So this is then setting up the next big event, which is Dark Rain. So Bendis, uh, I think if there's one criticism of Bendis's time, it's that it's because he had mapped out this big story in the same way. This constantly references that Civil War exposed the heroes to being able to be taken over. It fractured them, made them not trust each other, which is a really cool theme, I think, to use. This is setting up then Dark Reign, like, okay, now that no one trusts the heroes for multiple reasons, norman Osborne is in power. What happens if he takes over and actually gets power in the government is able to place villains in places of power. So Bendis is constantly, during most of his run in Marvel books, telling one big story.
Gotcha. Because then Norman is basically kind of taking the Skrulls own he's doing his own secret invasion, I guess, there, right? He's taking them and the villains and putting them into places of power instead of the skrulls.
Yes. Uh, so fun to revisit. But I'd say if I were going to recommend people revisit this book, I think you should do it with the omnibus and do it with the tie ins, because I, uh, think you'll really benefit from the new Avengers issues that they put in there. And the setup and some of the side stuff I think will really help it feel like a good well, you.
Mentioned Civil War, too, and it is mentioned a lot here. We're kind of starting from this fractured point where Tony is going to actually arrest Cap and some of the other characters, or not Cap, because Cap's missing. But I think it almost would help getting that whole maybe the whole bendis arc, as you just said, actually reading Civil War before you read this as well, just to get the full impact of the story. Yeah.
Ah. Because it has, like, who's registered? Who's not registered is a part of this plot, which is why there's the Secret Warriors and why there's the Thunderbolts, and why then Norman is able to exert such control. So a good, huge arc. But for this secret invasion, eight issues. A fun story with lots of impact.
Yes. So let's Morph transform into our second segment. It's exploring multiversity.
Silver me and ponder the question what if?
And today we are asking the question, what if the Skrulls succeeded in their secret invasion? This is from what if? Secret Invasion Number One from Marvel Comics. There's two main stories, plus some comedy in there. And we're only going to be touching on the first story, which is also called what if the Scrolls Succeeded in their Secret Invasion? And that's from February 2010.
So this is written by Kevin Griveau. Kevin is the creator of the Underworld franchise and also does some voice acting and other acting in Stargate and Congo and Batman Forever and voiced the super Skrull on Hulk and the Agents of Smash, which is a really cool thing. That was 2014, so it was obviously intentional, I'm guessing. Or he's just a huge fan of Skrulls, I don't know.
And he gets an amazing voice.
And it's co written by Carl Bowlers. Eisner nominated former writer for Sonic the Hedgehog for Archie Marvel, worked on Emma Frost, Avengers, Cable, Wolverine, uh, a few of the modern what ifs and had been a Valiant editor and currently is at bad idea. The pencils are by Pao Rodericks, a Brazilian artist who worked on Wolverine, some DC Comics, some Avatar, Dark Horse, and other publishers also, but it's painted over by Frank Martin, who has done tons and tons of comics work, mostly Marvel, but some DC, but has painted on Civil War, deadpool Wolverine, Avengers, Spider Man, Action Comics. It is Lettered by Jeff Powell, edited by Justin F. Gabri. And I have to say the COVID is by Lenol Francis Hugh, so it's really, uh, fun that they had Leonol come do the COVID though it's painted over by Gabrielle de Otto, but that is a fun little tidbit. So this is Earth ten 00:21. What happens on earth. Ten 00:21.
Well, it's one year since the Skrulls successfully conquered Earth. They are now living peacefully with most humans and have eradicated disease, war and famine. They've also introduced conversion, a way for humans to gain Skrull powers, which many people have undertaken, including Aunt May.
Only a small like young and brunette.
Yeah. Now she's young and revitalized. It's like the stargate thing. Yeah. Only a small force of superheroes, including Captain America, Ms. Marvel, the Fantastic Four, minus Reed, Spider Man, Wolverine, and others are fighting against the Skrulls from the base in T'Challa and Storm's Wakanda, though they are seen as terrorists by the rest of the world and, of course.
By the Skrulls after a suicide avengers alliance for freedom.
Mhm like the freedom force. That's what it made me think of. Definitely. After a suicide bombing, the Skrull Queen, on the advice of a converted Norman Osborne, plans to also her consort. Her consort? They plan on invading Wakanda. The terrorist Avengers plan to fight back, first by introducing a virus that will eliminate the Skrulls altogether, but then, at Tony Stark suggestion, a vaccine that will remove their powers. The heroes and Skrulls battle, and the virus is released. But it kills billions. That is because it is, in fact, the virus, not the vaccine. And Iron Man is not Tony, but rather Norman Osborne, who inoculates himself and decides to stop the scrolls so that he can be the hero and is.
Hiding in Tony's armor.
And he's hiding in Tony's armor. Yeah. And an enraged Captain America kills Norman as he and the other heroes are arrested by the UN for committing mass genocide.
Yes, quite a tale. One thing I want to start with is as a what if. It's interesting because it doesn't give us how the Skrulls actually won secret invasion. So it's fun in some ways, and I don't mind that it's missing. This is not a complaint. Again, I think it's kind of fun that it's just saying, well, what if they had one? What would the world look like? And they just jump ahead a year, as you said, to tell us what the world looks like and then give us the conflict that we go through. So it's an interesting point of divergence, where it's just saying, well, what if this had happened differently? Doesn't matter how it happened differently. What if it had?
Mhm, our queen is not only not killed, but seems in perfectly good health as well. And I think it makes complete sense, too, that Norman, the character that killed her, is now her consort and really her right hand.
Yeah. Well, that's what's fun. And ultimately the betrayal, too. Betrayer. But it is fun because I guess the way I imagined they were thinking, what if the Skrulls had won secret invasion? Is maybe like Norman just doesn't kill.
Uh huh.
True. By Norman not killing, like they are able to exert. Guess so. It is. It's fun. For that reason. What did you think, though, overall of the story? It's very dramatic.
It is. But I think I really enjoyed it, and I think in part because it really has this classic Sci-Fi element of what if. What if the world was taken over by an alien race who is not necessarily benevolent, but at the same time isn't really dictatorial. They're curing.
I'd say they're pretty benevolent and fascistic. I think those two things are true, right? Like they brought peace, they're bringing cure, but they are fascist dictators. So I'd call them benevolent dictators.
Yeah, I guess that's true. We don't know fully how much. We get little glimpses of society, but we don't know, for example, how many people have undergone conversion. It can't be, uh, the whole world, because then the whole world would basically cease to exist at the end of this issue. But yeah, so we don't know fully. But I think it is always that interesting question of what would you give up in order to have a world that is more, quote unquote perfect, and also to gain these powers that we see aunt May were told by Peter is sick, and then undergoes this conversion, and now, as you said, looks young and beautiful again.
Yeah, and I like those larger political, if you will, questions about the world. I think, if anything, one complaint I'd have is it almost focuses actually a little too much on the heroes here, because I love that they're positioned as terrorists. I love that, uh, that's part of I think what you're saying is like, well, what if the skrulls aren't bad? They invaded, they killed a lot of people along the way, which is how most modern countries have existed. And so then maybe they're not that bad once they're in power. And so maybe the Avengers can't let go of the past or can't move on. And so I think those questions are really interesting, and I liked that it explored them. Even Uatu in the very end, I think supports that by saying, uh, perhaps. So he talks about in my gleanings of infinite world spanning the multiverse in war, there are no winners or losers, only victims. Mhm, so it's complicating the question of winning and losing righteous, and not righteous. I'd say pretty well.
Yeah. I think your point is definitely kind of what I was thinking too, where it would be great if this was more than just part. It's not even a full issue. Uh, one story in this greater issue of what if that we really were seeing more what was happening on the world? What else were the scrolls doing? And then I think even spending a different kind of time with the heroes to explore more of how they are disagreeing about taking on aspects. Because we have some characters here who want to release the virus that's going to kill everyone, like Wolverine, because all of the other X Men. Were killed. So he doesn't care. He wants to kill everybody. But other characters, I think it's like Thor wants to be a little bit more not as ruthless think well, except.
You have Thor Kill sentry, so you do. It's interesting because it reminded me a little bit of Avengers endgame. Like you almost are feeling that they're at this point where they just don't know what to do anymore. And so you have Thor Kill sentry in the fight, and then you have Captain America, who's Bucky, it's not Steve, but just the fact that he pulls out a gun to shoot Norman Osborne dead. So it's like they are over it, if you will. They are desperate and that makes them more violent and less heroic mhm if.
We could I think this is something we've talked about so much with what ifs is even living in this world a little longer and really seeing how they are, why they are disagreeing. And we get a little bit too of Tony being an alcoholic now and that he feels like all this started from his actions with Civil war. Kind of going back to our previous conversation, but we don't get too much of that either. So it'd be great to maybe see, oh, a little bit more of how has all of these events affected these characters.
Yeah, I agree, it could have used more room to breathe, but sometimes I think these pack m a punch because they are so fast and because they need to be concise and succinct. And us wanting more is perhaps part of the design, I'd say, of these stories. So, yeah, I enjoyed it. Would you want to go back it sounds like you would, but for how long? Or what would you want to go back in a, uh, series, a longer issue? Like, what do you imagine?
I think this is definitely one of those cases where you wouldn't want to see the story continued. Well, you can't really, because the scrolls are all dead, but, uh, you could see other stories that are happening in between the end of the war and this issue, kind of like Star Wars style, where they're now inserting all these stories in between the movies that we know. I think that's where we could kind of definitely explore what's been happening in these worlds. What do you think? Would you want to go back to this world?
No, I mean, I think a little more room to breathe would have been fine, but I think it does it well enough. I think even you just saying I mean, I even forgot. I don't want to deal with the implications, but there's so much power in the fact that they killed billions of people. I guess Norman Osborne ultimately killed the billions of people. So Bucky kills him, but still the billions of skrulls were killed.
And the converted human as well.
Yeah, and the converted humans, right. That's why the number is so large. So yeah, it raises interesting questions. And does it? Well, uh, I don't love it's. A very 2000 Aughts Sheen, which is the painting is probably digital over this. And I don't love that. It distracts for me a lot.
Oh. Because I quite liked it, actually. I liked the overall art. I was thinking that's something that it really shares with the original eight issue series. While it's a very different style, I really liked the art here.
Yeah. So I think that's it for Earth 1021, but we're not quite leaving the.
World of Secret Invasion yet. So let us start pondering some possibilities. Will the future you describe be averted? Diverted. Diverted. So, Guido, what are we talking about for our pondering possibilities?
Well, we're talking about the secret invasion TV show. We waited till it was done so we could see what it was doing and then see if it links up with anything that we read today.
Yes. That is Secret Invasion from Disney Plus and Marvel Studios episodes one through six from June to July 2023.
The show is created by Kyle Bradstreet, though Brian Tucker was a writer on all episodes. Is directed by Ali Saleem executive produced by Kevin Feige and Jonathan Schwartz among others. Starring Samuel L. Jackson Ben Mendelssohn Kingsley Benadire Amelia Clarke Olivia Coleman Charlene Woodard and Don Cheadle And we are going to talk about the whole series. So we're going to spoil anything that happens in the series. If you didn't finish it, then feel free to come back when you do finish it. Or if you don't care about spoilers, then keep listening because we're going to go into the whole thing.
M it was really interesting for me. And I'm curious what our different experiences read the comics without having read the comics. Yeah. So all I knew was that what they had in common were that skrulls invaded and were pretending to be people. And that's it. I was actually really shocked when I started reading the comic and Nick Fury wasn't a big role. He does come in and it's super classic Jim Sterenko kind of Nick Fury.
Where he has Lingo warriors at that point. So that's part of why so I.
Was surprised to see that, oh, it's not even focusing around this character is really focusing on Tony Stark, which obviously the TV series is not going to be focusing on because he's dead. But what did you think, having already read the series and then watched their adaptation of it? A, uh, loose adaptation, let's say.
I wouldn't even call it an adaptation. And I think that's I don't care. I really try hard to separate out any expectations I have from source material because I think the MCU has pretty brilliantly adapted along the way with Civil War or even aspects of House of M M or other character arcs. They haven't followed it faithfully, and yet they've honored that source story, not just as fan service. But also, these stories are good, so why not mind them a little bit? So I think, to me, this is an example, and I cannot get out of my head the really, I think, bad choice in press, at least in my mind, that came before the series. Ali Saleem, who was the showrunner, said that? I think it was Kevin Feige. But someone at Marvel told him, do not read the comic when you were developing this show, and you can feel it. It is a completely different entity. There are, of course, aspects that I think are similar to the comic Secret Invasion, which is basically the aspect of, I think, um, fractured skrulls, right? So different factions, extremists versus not. Uh, and then a quote, unquote, secret invasion of people being converted secretly to gain power. But that's it. That's where it begins and ends. There is no other similarity. So I tried to separate that every time I would react. But again, I think these stories are good for a reason. The comic book stories, I don't need them to retell Secret Invasion from the comics just out of some sense of fidelity. But I think they missed an opportunity because it's so rich, the storytelling, it's so complex. And the show was not that the show was very simple. The show was very light. I think at times, it needed more room to breathe, and at times, it was too slow and boring and uninteresting, and nothing was happening. So it felt off to me. And I think had they mined the Secret Invasion comic a little bit more closely, it could have been really cool, and it could have set up pieces of things will play out forever, and I don't know. What did you think in reverse now that you've read the comic?
I think the word simple, you said, is like the key word about the TV show. And I think Bendis introduces some more complex ideas in the comic. I think the idea that I keep going back to is this sleeper agent idea that he plays within the comics, where you have Marvell doesn't know he is a skrull, and in fact, then turns against the skrulls. And I think that's such an interesting idea. We know from the MCU that the skrulls came in the 90s. So what if you had a character that we had gotten to know all this time who's in fact, a skrull, and it's only revealed to that person then that they're a skrull. And that's an interesting concept because would that person have fidelity to the skrulls or to the humans? What if they never really were on the skrulls home planet, so they don't even know that Earth is the only home that they know. So I think that's a really interesting idea. But on the TV show, all the characters always know that they are skrulls. So that idea is absent there. And I think it's also in the mockingbird character in the comics as well, because that character even knows about that they had a miscarriage and that it had this huge effect on her and Clint's relationship. And she doesn't know that she's a skrull. And it's actually kind of a great reveal when we find out that that character is a skrull, because up to that point, we're going, oh, wait, no, she proved herself that she's a Human. And we never kind of got those moments in this series either, where all of a sudden, oh, we thought we were going one way, and then it's going another way. No, instead, we kind of know right away that Rhodey is a skrull. There's never these back and forth moments where we're going like, wait, is he a human? Is he a skrull? When was Rhodey replaced? All those kind of questions.
Yeah. The other character that I think could have used more time that explores those questions is Priscilla. I m think they start to scratch the surface of who is she? Is she skrull or is she human? Who is Nick in love with human her or skrull her? And I loved those questions, and I think we barely scratched the surface of them at their expense. There was totally other storytelling going on. The last episode was 25 minutes, so I think there was a goal to keep it brief where they ran out of money or who knows? But, yeah, I think we missed a lot of opportunities there.
It's interesting. Yeah. What is the idea of you're living with someone for, let's say, 20 years and you don't know really what that person really looks like, what their real name is? They have secrets. Are you fallen in love with this fake person or fall in love with the real person? And I think there's just so much interesting things there. I mean, it also just made me think, in retrospect, I know a few different people who are couples, and one person has transitioned genders after they've been a couple, and was that person holding in that secret for years that is now finally able to be their true self? What does that mean for the identity, for the other person who's in that couple who now maybe didn't identify as queer, but now might be? And so I think there's a lot of things that they could have played around with in terms of Nick's Priscilla's relationship and relationship.
Yeah, I agree. Even the fact that she chose to be a black woman. Right. Huh. That could have been an interesting, totally story. And the way that that factors in to, uh, her experience living on Earth was shaped by that choice, that she got to make that choice.
I'm just thinking now, like children. Could they have had children together and what would that have been? Or what is it then to make the choice that I guess if they could have had children together, what's the choice of not going down that road. Uh, there's a lot of, I think, interesting, high Sci-Fi questions that could have been explored, especially with that relationship.
Yeah. I think for both of us, neither of us like to spend time being overly negative about things. I think the show was a failure for both of us. I think, at best, to me, the show was mediocre. I don't think it was awful, but I just don't think it was very good either. The last piece I'll say, and I don't know, this relates a little bit, I'd say, to the alternate universe we explored, is one big thing that they didn't do, was create stakes. I don't think the show had any stakes whatsoever. Even with Talos dying, I didn't feel that very much. Don't get me started on Maria dying in the first episode, because I can't stand that she was fridged and no one's talking about it. But even in the end, there's barely any stakes with Rhodey, it's dealt with, it's resolved quickly. Maybe there's a hint at there being higher stakes because Gaia and Olivia Coleman find the room with the hundreds or thousands of bodies that Skrulls have taken over. Maybe we're supposed to imagine that there could be someone important in that room, but it's not even hinted at. And I just think the show lacked stakes. Secret Invasion, the comic has huge stakes. You have these questions of who is is Tony a Skrull? Would he realize it or not? What if he is? What if they were able to turn him into a Skrull? How long has Jessica been a skrull? You have all these great questions. In the alternate universe, you have even bigger stakes. Of course, at that point, the Skrulls are successful, but you have these existential questions, what if the Skrulls are not that bad? Which is something the show starts to.
Play with, but doesn't, because our villain wants to just nuke the whole world so that Skrulls can have a planet, because they can live in the nuclear fallout and humans can't. So right away you go, well, no, the Skrulls can't be that good because this guy wants to kill everyone. And we have a little bit of, uh, back and forth with Talos there and everything. But yeah, the Skrulls are so much more villainous in the TV show, where I think there are those shades of black and white and those gray areas in the comics, especially in the what if?
Yeah, well, and that's even thinking about the what, uh, gravic. They could have had Gravic see the Avengers and therefore Nick Fury as terrorists. And that would have been somewhat like the what if is what if you had this faction of Skrulls who thought that the heroes were constantly fighting against them or oppressing them, and that could have been slightly more interesting than yeah.
No, I think that's really interesting.
So I think both of the things we read today could have been, um, interesting in the storytelling of the MCU.
Yeah. And I heard Ali Salem talk about that. He thinks Rhodey was replaced after Civil War. And he said, oh, one of them. Then the tragic things about that is that Rhodey didn't actually get to experience the death and the funeral of his best friend, Tony Stark. And I'm thinking, well, that's really interesting. I don't know. Will they be exploring that on screen and something else? But if so, is it going to be years from now? That's the kind of conflict I would love to have seen on the TV show. Oh, you took this away from this person. He's able to experience the death of his friend. And what does it mean, then, that fake Rhodey experienced this? Did he get moved in some way there, or she totally and that's, I think, some of the elements that you do get in the Bendis series and the what if through a character like Mar Vell, and then even ultimately through someone like Norman Osborne, who's playing all different sides. The Roadie character could have been something closer there, where he's aligned with the president, but he's also aligned with the Skrulls, but we instead get him just as, um, a plain old villain.
Yeah. And that's where there could have been an interesting use of someone like Val Contessa, uh, the character we've met already who could play the Norman Osden role and seems like she might be playing it in the Thunderbolts movie. This series could have been interesting to bring that political question in, and maybe it will be ultimately explored. But we haven't seen so much evidence of such a connected universe at this point that I'm not sure that Armor Wars, if it does end up happening, is going to have Don Cheadle grieve Tony Stark. I don't know that Thunderbolts, when it does come out, is going to have Val link up to the Skrull agenda in any yeah. Missed potential, for sure.
But action sequences were cool. Ended on a positive something positive.
Uh, olivia coleman there yes.
Olivia coleman was great. And Samuel Jackson, when he got to do is they end the scene with Charlene Woodard where they actually really got to act and be opposite. I did think they were both great. The script didn't give them enough to do, but when they did have it, they were both excellent.
Yeah. All right. Well, that is a wrap on this secret invasion. Our secret invasion has failed. But that doesn't mean you have to walk away empty handed because it's time for our next giveaway. This is our second to last giveaway in our summer of giveaways, celebrating our two years. This is our biggest giveaway yet. We have a dozen Elseworlds or alternate universe comics bundled together, dating back to the Silver Age with girlfriend Lois Lane, to the first Elseworlds with Batman holy terror. To some other Elseworlds to what ifs alternate universes. Maybe even an amalgam or two. Uh, buffy. Alternate universe. So many alternate universes in these books. So little time. But you get to read these, check out any episodes we have on them, and maybe even you'll read one and love it so much that you'll ask us if you can join us to talk about.
That'd be fun.
Yeah.
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Have 100% certainly been rob.
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