WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.815 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisakson. 00:00:33.894 --> 00:00:34.195 com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:39.205 --> 00:00:41.845 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free. 00:00:42.295 --> 00:00:48.365 I have had a question in my mind for about three decades now which is 00:00:48.394 --> 00:00:55.335 having lived in the USA for 25 years or so before I moved back to Europe. 00:00:55.755 --> 00:01:03.705 I was often intrigued in watching the rise of the conservative Christian thing and 00:01:03.705 --> 00:01:06.345 how that became increasingly politicized. 00:01:06.935 --> 00:01:15.005 And okay, I could understand that, but one of the things which I had trouble 00:01:15.005 --> 00:01:23.915 understanding was that if one valued creation, why did one not look after it? 00:01:24.845 --> 00:01:27.245 And where were the environmentalists? 00:01:27.830 --> 00:01:31.640 Within Christianity at least, at least within American Christianity, because 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:33.260 it just didn't seem to be there. 00:01:33.260 --> 00:01:42.140 And it seemed that this idea of man's dominion over the beasts or nature or 00:01:42.140 --> 00:01:48.530 whatever seemed to be taken as a carte blanche to bleep it all up, to mess 00:01:48.530 --> 00:01:50.630 it all up, to destroy it effectively. 00:01:51.110 --> 00:01:55.580 And that even that destroying it almost seemed to be an imperative 00:01:56.210 --> 00:01:58.640 within that theological outlook. 00:01:59.420 --> 00:02:03.170 Why couldn't that mean stewardship of God's creation? 00:02:03.350 --> 00:02:05.600 Why couldn't that mean environmentalism? 00:02:05.990 --> 00:02:14.510 Why was that philosophically or theologically opposed to the Christian 00:02:14.510 --> 00:02:16.670 conservative outlook and viewpoint? 00:02:16.940 --> 00:02:19.940 And I could never quite understand this. 00:02:20.040 --> 00:02:21.060 So I. 00:02:21.465 --> 00:02:23.925 Been going round saying, where are the Christian environmentalists? 00:02:23.925 --> 00:02:24.315 Where are they? 00:02:24.315 --> 00:02:24.735 Where are they? 00:02:24.735 --> 00:02:25.215 Where are they? 00:02:25.215 --> 00:02:25.605 Where are they? 00:02:25.785 --> 00:02:30.315 I guess you have to ask a question enough times because up pops Ben. 00:02:31.155 --> 00:02:37.185 So ladies and gentlemen sitting before you today is somebody who I think 00:02:37.185 --> 00:02:41.425 is part of an, of a growing movement within Christianity in America, which 00:02:41.425 --> 00:02:50.035 is actually exactly this, the, the, the celebration of and nurture of nature 00:02:50.995 --> 00:02:56.695 rather nature versus nurture, the nurture of nature within the Christian context. 00:02:57.205 --> 00:02:58.105 Fascinating. 00:02:58.705 --> 00:03:01.825 So Ben, welcome on the show. 00:03:02.305 --> 00:03:04.195 Please tell us, and thank you for coming on. 00:03:04.195 --> 00:03:07.285 Please tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it. 00:03:09.055 --> 00:03:09.205 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:03:09.205 --> 00:03:10.075 Thanks for having me. 00:03:10.135 --> 00:03:10.495 Yeah. 00:03:10.545 --> 00:03:12.735 I'm excited to talk about this and talk with you. 00:03:14.085 --> 00:03:19.695 So I am a professor of practical theology, which might lead you to 00:03:19.695 --> 00:03:21.465 ask, what is Impractical Theology? 00:03:22.245 --> 00:03:24.840 You know, which would be, in my mind, would be a good bit. 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:25.320 No old theology. 00:03:25.320 --> 00:03:26.000 Impractical. 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:31.995 A good bit of it is, but theology that doesn't issue in love and care for 00:03:31.995 --> 00:03:34.275 others to me is impractical theology. 00:03:34.275 --> 00:03:34.305 Okay. 00:03:34.785 --> 00:03:39.585 Practical theology starts with the practices of Christians, the hospitality, 00:03:39.585 --> 00:03:43.935 forgiveness, these sorts of things, and tries to help individuals and 00:03:43.935 --> 00:03:46.185 congregations do it more faithfully. 00:03:47.145 --> 00:03:48.480 That's what practical theology is. 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:52.185 So we partner with the social sciences and with the hard science is to try 00:03:52.185 --> 00:03:56.775 to understand our world, to try and understand humans how they respond. 00:03:56.775 --> 00:04:00.705 So instead of just having philosophy as a theological conversation 00:04:00.705 --> 00:04:03.285 partner, we have disability studies. 00:04:03.285 --> 00:04:05.025 And for me, I have, I. 00:04:05.835 --> 00:04:11.175 Sort of books on equines and these sorts of things, or, so it's a, 00:04:11.175 --> 00:04:14.475 it's a very broad conversation that's focused on practice. 00:04:14.475 --> 00:04:16.695 So that's my job. 00:04:16.965 --> 00:04:22.755 I also started a Center for Disability and Ministry at Western Theological Seminary. 00:04:22.755 --> 00:04:23.985 And where and 00:04:24.195 --> 00:04:26.775 Rupert Isaacson: where's Western Theological Seminary based? 00:04:27.105 --> 00:04:29.085 Ben Connor: You would imagine it would be in the West. 00:04:29.284 --> 00:04:33.755 But I think it, it might have been at the time it was built before 00:04:33.755 --> 00:04:37.655 all the expansion happened with the us but we're in Holland, Michigan. 00:04:37.865 --> 00:04:38.164 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:04:38.164 --> 00:04:40.865 Ben Connor: So Right, right next to Lake, lake, Michigan. 00:04:42.365 --> 00:04:50.085 And so the Center is the only theological school in the United States that offers 00:04:50.415 --> 00:04:54.945 accredited programs graduate certificate, a master's of Arts, and a doctor of 00:04:54.945 --> 00:04:59.115 ministry in disability and ministry. 00:04:59.355 --> 00:04:59.925 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 00:05:00.465 --> 00:05:05.415 Ben Connor: And the focus is, is not so much on what we often hear when we 00:05:05.415 --> 00:05:09.825 think about churches and ministry, which is how are we gonna minister to people 00:05:09.825 --> 00:05:16.795 with disabilities, often casting people with disabilities as needy, as not 00:05:16.795 --> 00:05:21.925 having particular theological insights or, or see pro problematizing them. 00:05:21.925 --> 00:05:24.535 Seeing them more in terms of a medical model of disability. 00:05:24.865 --> 00:05:27.325 Like, how can we overcome these problems so they can be 00:05:27.325 --> 00:05:28.795 included in what we're doing? 00:05:29.365 --> 00:05:30.925 That's not what I'm doing at all. 00:05:31.675 --> 00:05:39.955 What I'm trying to do is gather insights from different body minds 00:05:40.285 --> 00:05:44.725 that are engaging in theology and engaging the Bible, because if you 00:05:44.725 --> 00:05:49.405 have to live in a world as an expert life hacker and navigate a world 00:05:49.405 --> 00:05:51.415 that's not designed for you, mm-hmm. 00:05:51.415 --> 00:05:53.725 You gain many, many insights. 00:05:54.145 --> 00:05:57.145 And so the purpose of the center is to. 00:05:58.255 --> 00:06:03.295 Amplify those insights to invite people with disabilities into this conversation, 00:06:03.295 --> 00:06:08.425 to center their voices, to center their experiences in biblical interpretation, 00:06:08.425 --> 00:06:13.195 in theological investigation, and in the concrete practices of ministry. 00:06:14.425 --> 00:06:14.845 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:06:15.175 --> 00:06:20.215 That's a lot of words and I'm gonna ask you to explain some of them. 00:06:20.545 --> 00:06:23.185 But the first big question is, are you a priest? 00:06:24.445 --> 00:06:25.285 Ben Connor: Not a priest? 00:06:25.285 --> 00:06:29.805 I'm ordained in in a more evangelical tradition. 00:06:30.585 --> 00:06:30.795 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:06:30.795 --> 00:06:31.155 So 00:06:31.425 --> 00:06:33.345 Ben Connor: my primary role is as professor. 00:06:33.615 --> 00:06:34.635 Rupert Isaacson: But you are ordained, 00:06:35.205 --> 00:06:35.505 Ben Connor: but I 00:06:35.505 --> 00:06:36.285 Rupert Isaacson: am ordained. 00:06:36.675 --> 00:06:37.125 Okay. 00:06:37.125 --> 00:06:39.855 So here's where I'd like to begin. 00:06:40.585 --> 00:06:43.284 And then I want to branch out into the work you're actually doing. 00:06:43.825 --> 00:06:51.474 Why in the USA is the idea of being an environmentalist. 00:06:53.290 --> 00:07:00.580 Counter or opposed to being Christian in the general context. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:01.810 Ben Connor: Right. 00:07:02.409 --> 00:07:08.170 So I do think it's based in poor interpretations of our scripture. 00:07:08.770 --> 00:07:08.920 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:16.170 Ben Connor: And in a close relationship between a western enlightenment, 00:07:16.170 --> 00:07:22.140 individualistic worldview, and the way that Christianity in America came to be. 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:24.390 Rupert Isaacson: So, okay. 00:07:24.390 --> 00:07:26.430 Let's talk about how Christianity in America came to be. 00:07:27.030 --> 00:07:27.599 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:07:27.870 --> 00:07:29.849 So, it's, it's a frontier. 00:07:31.289 --> 00:07:36.929 The, the frontier movement, the individualism, the, the problem solving. 00:07:37.259 --> 00:07:41.609 All of that got mapped onto expressions of Christianity United States. 00:07:42.179 --> 00:07:46.619 And while on the one hand you had a separation between church and state 00:07:46.619 --> 00:07:50.729 that was supposed to protect each from each other, allow, allow religion to 00:07:50.729 --> 00:07:53.489 flourish and, and, and this sort of thing. 00:07:53.999 --> 00:07:58.439 So you can't, like if you wanted to disestablish religion in the 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:00.269 United States, where do you look? 00:08:00.269 --> 00:08:03.869 Since it's not legally established, you can't disestablish it. 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:07.439 Instead, the way that it's been established is it's been more culturally 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.559 established through values and blue laws. 00:08:10.559 --> 00:08:13.349 And if you're gonna be a president, then you better say you're a Christian. 00:08:13.349 --> 00:08:14.189 These sorts of things. 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:18.899 So politics, cultural values, all these sorts of things mixed to create a kind 00:08:18.899 --> 00:08:26.759 of Christianity that sees that when it reads dominion in the Bible, thinks 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.069 of dominion as dominance or control. 00:08:30.659 --> 00:08:36.000 And, and it's, it's part of the larger enlightenment project that begins 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:43.470 with, I think therefore I am of mastery of control, of use, of othering. 00:08:44.460 --> 00:08:49.770 And it, it starts with dominating land, dominating the people who are on the land. 00:08:50.250 --> 00:08:53.360 And the Christians in the United States were you know, there were 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:58.370 people on both sides, but the power was more complicit with that movement. 00:08:59.900 --> 00:09:04.190 And so then you have a mis oriented notion of dominion that isn't all 00:09:04.190 --> 00:09:09.710 reflective of their own scriptures that talk about there's a verse here 00:09:09.710 --> 00:09:12.205 and there, but you can do anything with a verse here or there, I mean. 00:09:12.205 --> 00:09:12.485 Mm-hmm. 00:09:12.570 --> 00:09:16.370 You know, I mean, I, I could make all kind of ridiculous claims that 00:09:16.400 --> 00:09:17.960 would then be called biblical. 00:09:18.140 --> 00:09:19.910 'cause I can attach a verse to it. 00:09:19.910 --> 00:09:24.800 But the large arc of it is that it's supposed to be oriented by 00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:31.070 a different kind of relationship with creation and stewardship 00:09:31.490 --> 00:09:33.110 is a better idea than dominance. 00:09:33.110 --> 00:09:37.460 Even the dominion that's supposed to be expressed is supposed to be one that 00:09:37.460 --> 00:09:39.470 leads to the flourishing of everything. 00:09:40.130 --> 00:09:43.070 And if everything's not flourishing, then nothing's flourishing. 00:09:43.670 --> 00:09:44.090 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:09:44.090 --> 00:09:47.810 I mean, presumably if one's, you know, I also get that, I get that 00:09:47.810 --> 00:09:54.329 America started, at least Protestant America started with pilgrims. 00:09:54.645 --> 00:09:59.415 Pilgrim fathers, but pilgrim fathers were actually religious extremists 00:09:59.415 --> 00:10:02.535 who were kicked out of England at, they were actually in the clink jail 00:10:02.535 --> 00:10:07.525 in London before they were put on the boat, the Mayflower, to be sent because 00:10:07.525 --> 00:10:08.875 they were, they were troublesome. 00:10:09.295 --> 00:10:13.885 And we had just had a civil war in the UK where they've cut the king's head off. 00:10:14.285 --> 00:10:14.615 No, sorry. 00:10:14.615 --> 00:10:17.075 We, we were about to, we hadn't yet had it. 00:10:17.415 --> 00:10:23.715 And so the, the, these puritan extremists who were reflecting, you know, some of the 00:10:23.715 --> 00:10:28.365 extremism that led to these cataclysmic wars of religion that we had in Europe 00:10:28.575 --> 00:10:32.655 in the 17th century were like packed on boats and said, all right, lads, off 00:10:32.655 --> 00:10:34.665 you go over there and good luck to you. 00:10:34.875 --> 00:10:39.225 And of course, they made it, and people have heard of like the Salem Witch trials 00:10:39.225 --> 00:10:42.105 and people have heard of that sort of thing, but they, you know, landed in New 00:10:42.105 --> 00:10:47.625 England and walked around being unpleasant and puritan to everybody, including 00:10:47.625 --> 00:10:50.564 themselves and sort of established. 00:10:51.479 --> 00:10:54.119 That tradition a little bit, and we get that. 00:10:54.660 --> 00:11:01.050 But given that that's 400 years ago, and given that okay, then 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:02.250 you had other things going on. 00:11:02.250 --> 00:11:06.689 You had slavery, you had genocides of the Native Americans and 00:11:06.689 --> 00:11:08.790 so on and manifest destiny. 00:11:08.790 --> 00:11:14.850 This idea in the 19th century of progress, commercial progress with 00:11:14.850 --> 00:11:16.350 Christianity getting mixed up. 00:11:16.680 --> 00:11:23.370 I do understand all that, but yet it didn't, it didn't seem to that there 00:11:23.370 --> 00:11:28.439 were other parts of the world that were colonized where that kind of wholesale 00:11:28.439 --> 00:11:35.189 assault on the land and on nature didn't become the dominant culture. 00:11:35.430 --> 00:11:38.460 I'm thinking about my own family, for example, in, in South Africa 00:11:38.819 --> 00:11:42.390 who were, I mean, were not dissimilar roots in many ways. 00:11:42.390 --> 00:11:44.280 They were, you know, very puritan. 00:11:45.045 --> 00:11:50.714 Christians on the Dutch side who formed the Dutch Reformed Church, which is 00:11:50.714 --> 00:11:54.824 one of only two churches in the world that were formed specifically to 00:11:54.824 --> 00:11:59.055 justify, you know, bad institutionalized racism, one of which being the 00:11:59.055 --> 00:12:00.344 Dutch Reform Church in South Africa. 00:12:00.344 --> 00:12:04.385 The other one being you know, the Southern Baptist Church in in, in the USA. 00:12:05.015 --> 00:12:14.495 But yet those ancestors of mine in South Africa did take a stewardship line and 00:12:14.495 --> 00:12:16.595 I guess they couldn't take a genocidal. 00:12:16.655 --> 00:12:19.265 There was no slavery, there was colonizing, there was no, they 00:12:19.265 --> 00:12:21.965 couldn't take a genocidal line, I think because there, there were 00:12:21.965 --> 00:12:25.595 always more of the local people than there were of the white settlers. 00:12:25.805 --> 00:12:27.574 So you, you couldn't have done it if you tried. 00:12:27.574 --> 00:12:31.835 There just were not the millions and millions and millions of people 00:12:32.195 --> 00:12:35.314 coming into Africa that there were coming across the Atlantic. 00:12:35.855 --> 00:12:38.255 But then we look north at Canada, say. 00:12:38.975 --> 00:12:45.605 And we don't see Christianity being quite, so, 00:12:51.035 --> 00:12:51.785 what's the word? 00:12:51.845 --> 00:12:57.455 Manipulated into something as it's not that they didn't assault nature, but not 00:12:57.455 --> 00:13:01.865 perhaps to the same degree they did do genocides, but they didn't have slavery. 00:13:02.045 --> 00:13:05.465 Then you look at Mexico and you go, well, they're pretty, you know, that's 00:13:05.675 --> 00:13:09.485 pretty messed up down there, but you see it through a Catholic lens, and 00:13:10.115 --> 00:13:19.295 again, not, not maybe this same sort of idea that to be Christian means paving 00:13:20.015 --> 00:13:25.505 the entire continent from C to C with a McDonald's every 200 meters, and if 00:13:25.505 --> 00:13:27.125 you do that, you're doing God's work. 00:13:27.395 --> 00:13:31.835 And that's sort of where it's ended up with a lot of Christians in America. 00:13:32.045 --> 00:13:35.795 That still puzzles me, even though I understand that historical 00:13:35.795 --> 00:13:37.715 process that you've outlined. 00:13:38.675 --> 00:13:39.095 Ben Connor: Right. 00:13:39.095 --> 00:13:42.055 Well, there are a couple other theological biblical factors that 00:13:42.055 --> 00:13:43.705 shape this understanding as well. 00:13:43.705 --> 00:13:49.525 So one is this expansionism the desire to manipulate, control and create 00:13:50.575 --> 00:13:56.485 moved by a vision that through progress eventually the world's gonna be so 00:13:56.485 --> 00:14:01.045 great through our technology progress, ingenuity and faith that Jesus is 00:14:01.045 --> 00:14:02.635 just gonna come down and join us. 00:14:02.995 --> 00:14:03.355 Right? 00:14:03.415 --> 00:14:07.314 That's one sort of in time sort of view, an eschatological view, but then 00:14:07.314 --> 00:14:09.324 other sorts of things happen as well. 00:14:09.714 --> 00:14:13.584 So, so the first one is this dominion, a mis oriented dominion, 00:14:13.584 --> 00:14:14.814 which we've just talked about. 00:14:15.355 --> 00:14:22.974 Another theological sort of also enlightenment mindset that impacts the way 00:14:22.974 --> 00:14:28.344 Christianity's expressed in some pockets in the US is this drive to differentiate 00:14:28.344 --> 00:14:31.495 ourselves from other creatures. 00:14:32.395 --> 00:14:35.845 Not just differentiate ourselves, but say that we're superior somehow. 00:14:36.324 --> 00:14:40.345 So we're taking this whole chain of being thing, mapping it into Christian 00:14:40.375 --> 00:14:45.155 theology and then saying that and it makes sense 'cause the Bible is a 00:14:45.275 --> 00:14:48.275 book about humans perception of God. 00:14:48.275 --> 00:14:50.225 So it's a very anthropocentric book, right? 00:14:50.885 --> 00:14:53.915 But then, and so you go to these early Genesis accounts and it seems 00:14:53.915 --> 00:14:55.595 like the whole world's there for you. 00:14:56.945 --> 00:14:59.375 And then you gotta say, well, how am I different? 00:14:59.375 --> 00:15:01.235 Well, I'm created in the image of God. 00:15:01.715 --> 00:15:04.595 What does it mean that I'm created in the image of God and animals aren't? 00:15:04.775 --> 00:15:07.805 So we try to figure out what is this thing that makes us in the image of 00:15:07.805 --> 00:15:12.185 God and differential ourselves from the rest of creation to say that we're 00:15:12.185 --> 00:15:18.995 superior and we have the right to use them, use creation, animals, and 00:15:18.995 --> 00:15:23.285 land to invest in this project that we think that we're called to do. 00:15:24.575 --> 00:15:26.825 And so that's a, so there's another mindset. 00:15:26.825 --> 00:15:30.875 This drive to differentiate ourselves means that you can't look at a. 00:15:31.535 --> 00:15:34.655 You know, now, now we're getting, we're getting things from science 00:15:34.655 --> 00:15:38.675 now that are challenging how, how we choose to differentiate ourselves. 00:15:38.675 --> 00:15:42.395 We say, oh, well we have rational minds and we can create tools. 00:15:42.395 --> 00:15:44.375 And then you find out that a crow can create a tool. 00:15:44.420 --> 00:15:44.820 Mm-hmm. 00:15:45.005 --> 00:15:45.215 Rupert Isaacson: And 00:15:45.215 --> 00:15:46.985 Ben Connor: then we have this kind of empathy. 00:15:46.985 --> 00:15:49.775 And then you learn more about pigs, you know, and we have 00:15:49.775 --> 00:15:51.095 these parenting instincts. 00:15:51.095 --> 00:15:52.715 And you learn about pods of dolphins. 00:15:52.715 --> 00:15:53.525 And we're like, okay. 00:15:53.765 --> 00:15:56.220 Every time we try to differentiate ourselves, right. 00:15:56.225 --> 00:15:57.215 We have a posable thumbs 00:15:57.215 --> 00:15:58.235 Rupert Isaacson: and then you look at a raccoon. 00:15:58.295 --> 00:15:58.595 Yeah. 00:15:58.715 --> 00:15:59.135 Ben Connor: Right? 00:15:59.525 --> 00:16:00.125 And so, yeah. 00:16:00.275 --> 00:16:05.340 So then we start to say, well, you know how, I think a better, a better 00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:09.870 idea is, is to think how animals in, in relationship with animals, how 00:16:10.050 --> 00:16:13.410 it's not a kingdom where we're the kings in charge of everything, but 00:16:13.410 --> 00:16:18.570 it's a kinship relationship where we're related to everything and, 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.290 and perhaps the thing that makes us different is more about a responsibility 00:16:22.290 --> 00:16:23.910 we have than a capacity we have. 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.430 'cause we start to think about the capacities. 00:16:26.670 --> 00:16:30.120 Not only do we differentiate ourselves from animals, we differentiate 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:34.170 ourselves from other humans, and then we value these humans less as well. 00:16:34.170 --> 00:16:39.150 So this was the thesis of a book called Beasts of Burden by Sonara 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:42.150 Taylor, who growing up had. 00:16:42.585 --> 00:16:48.135 Followed these chicken trucks, these awful farmed chickens with feathers flying 00:16:48.135 --> 00:16:52.535 behind her was trying to make sense of how, how is this these farmed, the, the 00:16:52.535 --> 00:16:57.185 way the animals, these industrial farming, the implications for the environment, the 00:16:57.185 --> 00:17:01.385 implications for the chickens themselves, the implications for the workers. 00:17:01.385 --> 00:17:05.915 And she saw that her own disability, you know, she can be cast as 00:17:05.915 --> 00:17:09.724 less than, because we do the same thing with the animals and we 00:17:09.724 --> 00:17:10.925 do the same thing with the land. 00:17:10.925 --> 00:17:14.765 So this drive to differentiate ourselves from creatures, what we've really done 00:17:14.915 --> 00:17:17.675 is disconnect ourselves from nature. 00:17:18.065 --> 00:17:23.795 And the biophilia hypothesis suggests that we were formed in who we are 00:17:23.795 --> 00:17:25.504 as humans alongside of nature. 00:17:25.744 --> 00:17:25.954 What's the 00:17:26.375 --> 00:17:27.635 Rupert Isaacson: biophilia hypothesis? 00:17:27.994 --> 00:17:28.266 What is that? 00:17:28.271 --> 00:17:28.444 This 00:17:28.444 --> 00:17:32.374 Ben Connor: is by Ed Edward Wilson wrote that I. 00:17:32.744 --> 00:17:36.884 That we have an innate connection or love for living things or 00:17:36.884 --> 00:17:37.904 for nature, how can we not, 00:17:37.904 --> 00:17:39.314 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, we're, we're a part of it, right? 00:17:39.434 --> 00:17:40.664 Ben Connor: And that's what he says. 00:17:40.664 --> 00:17:43.364 Like this, this whole network of conversation going between 00:17:43.364 --> 00:17:46.364 trees and mushrooms also has connections with our bodies. 00:17:46.424 --> 00:17:46.514 Mm-hmm. 00:17:46.704 --> 00:17:50.444 We've just lost touch with it and we've tried to separate ourselves 00:17:50.444 --> 00:17:52.484 from it, control it, dominate it. 00:17:52.754 --> 00:17:57.644 And in the, in, in the process, we've disconnected ourselves from our own lives. 00:17:57.704 --> 00:18:04.184 So, so this drive to differentiate didn't just differentiate us from animals, it 00:18:04.184 --> 00:18:07.934 differentiated us from ourselves, from each other, from the land, from creation, 00:18:08.444 --> 00:18:12.584 and didn't actually answer the question of what makes us different from animals. 00:18:12.985 --> 00:18:15.235 So maybe we should talk more about what makes us the same. 00:18:16.105 --> 00:18:19.675 So that's a second theological move that, that's, that's feeding 00:18:19.675 --> 00:18:21.144 this in the United States. 00:18:21.145 --> 00:18:21.925 And there's one more. 00:18:21.925 --> 00:18:21.955 Okay. 00:18:22.105 --> 00:18:22.555 You wanna hear 00:18:22.555 --> 00:18:22.825 Rupert Isaacson: that? 00:18:22.825 --> 00:18:23.514 Ask a question. 00:18:23.514 --> 00:18:24.595 Well, just, just quickly. 00:18:25.345 --> 00:18:25.705 Yeah. 00:18:25.705 --> 00:18:29.485 Is there, is there a movement within Christianity about. 00:18:31.180 --> 00:18:32.770 Why are we the same as animals? 00:18:34.150 --> 00:18:34.600 Oh, yeah, 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:35.170 Ben Connor: there is. 00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:35.530 There is. 00:18:35.530 --> 00:18:37.174 There's, there's there's a, you've heard of it. 00:18:37.178 --> 00:18:37.530 Wonderful book. 00:18:37.710 --> 00:18:42.360 There's a book by David Clef, C-L-O-U-G-H, David Clef, who's 00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:43.710 now at Aberdeen, like Clough, 00:18:43.780 --> 00:18:46.330 Rupert Isaacson: C-L-O-U-U-G-H-U-G-H, yeah. 00:18:46.330 --> 00:18:46.510 Ben Connor: Clef, 00:18:46.510 --> 00:18:46.810 Rupert Isaacson: right. 00:18:47.379 --> 00:18:51.379 Ben Connor: And he wrote a book called Creaturely Theology, which 00:18:51.379 --> 00:18:53.629 starts with any theology you do. 00:18:53.629 --> 00:18:57.590 It needs to start with your commonality with the rest of the world as a creature. 00:18:57.650 --> 00:18:59.780 Rupert Isaacson: This almost sounds like Celtic Christianity, 00:18:59.780 --> 00:19:01.400 druidic Christianity, or so 00:19:02.030 --> 00:19:02.540 Ben Connor: well there. 00:19:02.540 --> 00:19:02.960 Yeah. 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:03.260 Yeah. 00:19:03.260 --> 00:19:05.720 You could say that that kind of Christianity is very different 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.840 from Roman Christianity because of the conversation partners. 00:19:08.845 --> 00:19:09.115 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:19:09.195 --> 00:19:09.475 Mm-hmm. 00:19:09.555 --> 00:19:09.556 Mm-hmm. 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:10.190 Right? 00:19:10.190 --> 00:19:13.040 Ben Connor: And, and so that's another problem with, with Christianity, 00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:17.030 is people want to think that their expression is a final expression and 00:19:17.030 --> 00:19:19.190 then sort of use that colonizing mindset, 00:19:19.340 --> 00:19:19.700 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:23.990 Ben Connor: And so evangelism becomes, you become like me, whereas it should 00:19:23.990 --> 00:19:27.800 be an expansion of our understanding of that, which we all share. 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:33.780 So every cultural boundary you cra cross brings new riches and insights into this 00:19:33.780 --> 00:19:35.520 Christianity that we claim to share. 00:19:35.550 --> 00:19:35.820 So would 00:19:35.820 --> 00:19:38.520 Rupert Isaacson: you ca, would you classify yourself as an evangelist? 00:19:40.300 --> 00:19:41.980 Ben Connor: If I get to define what it is. 00:19:42.490 --> 00:19:42.970 Okay. 00:19:43.510 --> 00:19:43.720 Okay. 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:49.139 Because my experience with evangelists is, is is it's techniques that 00:19:49.139 --> 00:19:52.379 were used to manipulate people into saying certain magic words. 00:19:52.590 --> 00:19:54.300 That means they're in instead of out. 00:19:54.810 --> 00:19:55.110 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:58.350 Ben Connor: I don't think that has anything to do with what the 00:19:58.350 --> 00:20:02.100 historical figure of Jesus was doing or the early church was doing. 00:20:02.310 --> 00:20:08.610 That was more a proclamation about what it means to live in this world in a different 00:20:08.610 --> 00:20:13.470 kind of a way that's, that's challenging power, that's caring for the poor, 00:20:14.010 --> 00:20:20.210 that is, is caring for the sick that is involved in harmony, flourishing in life. 00:20:20.510 --> 00:20:25.670 So then my evangelism in that sense is a doing, a being and a saying. 00:20:26.030 --> 00:20:29.130 It's, it's the way that I serve the world. 00:20:29.180 --> 00:20:34.610 When, when did I see you in and when did I visit you in prison and when did I give 00:20:34.610 --> 00:20:37.160 you clothes and when did I give you food? 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.950 Was the question that was asked in this sheep and the goat's 00:20:39.950 --> 00:20:41.780 parable of, of Jesus, right? 00:20:42.020 --> 00:20:44.570 He said, whenever you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me. 00:20:45.209 --> 00:20:50.669 And so this kind of service is one way that I evangelize. 00:20:50.969 --> 00:20:54.060 So there's a, there's a doing, there's a being. 00:20:54.060 --> 00:20:57.990 What kind of communities am I creating and how I, how do they include 00:20:57.990 --> 00:21:00.870 the gifts of other people that are marginalized in other settings? 00:21:01.169 --> 00:21:02.550 That's a kind of community. 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:06.510 So there's a, a being of evangelism and then there's a saying. 00:21:06.510 --> 00:21:11.280 Sometimes you give explanation verbally to, to what's going on, 00:21:11.399 --> 00:21:16.050 but that's usually the last resort for me, for my, but you and I both 00:21:16.050 --> 00:21:19.379 Rupert Isaacson: know that that's not, that's it sounds wonderful, but you, 00:21:19.379 --> 00:21:23.820 you and I both know that's not how evangelism is usually presents itself. 00:21:23.820 --> 00:21:24.120 Right? 00:21:24.125 --> 00:21:24.659 It it 00:21:24.659 --> 00:21:25.530 Ben Connor: exactly. 00:21:25.530 --> 00:21:27.330 And, and fortunately I'm teaching course you're gonna go to 00:21:27.419 --> 00:21:32.129 Rupert Isaacson: hell unless you abide by these rules and this big blowup there with 00:21:32.129 --> 00:21:35.491 a beer's gonna give you a spank bottom and send you to the place where the. 00:21:35.824 --> 00:21:38.644 Chaps of the pointy heads will stick you with pointy things. 00:21:38.915 --> 00:21:41.675 Ben Connor: So let's tie that understanding of evangelism 00:21:41.675 --> 00:21:42.965 to the third movement. 00:21:42.995 --> 00:21:43.294 Okay. 00:21:43.324 --> 00:21:46.594 So we have this dominion issue where we've gotten dominion wrong. 00:21:46.864 --> 00:21:50.945 We have the drive to div differentiate ourselves from animals and creation 00:21:51.124 --> 00:21:55.094 where we actually separate ourselves from ourselves and from our world. 00:21:55.094 --> 00:21:55.879 You just said we've gotten 00:21:56.120 --> 00:21:56.639 Rupert Isaacson: dominion wrong. 00:21:56.715 --> 00:22:00.465 That really excites me and I want to return to that later. 00:22:00.524 --> 00:22:00.915 Okay? 00:22:01.004 --> 00:22:02.145 Ben Connor: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:02.445 --> 00:22:03.044 Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, I didn't mean to. 00:22:03.854 --> 00:22:06.344 Ben Connor: So there's dominion drive to differentiate. 00:22:06.374 --> 00:22:09.044 The last one fits right into that kind of evangelism. 00:22:09.344 --> 00:22:11.354 What happens in that kind of evangelism? 00:22:11.594 --> 00:22:14.205 We save your soul from a world that's gonna burn. 00:22:14.264 --> 00:22:18.975 I collect bumper stickers just for fun about that kind of evangelism. 00:22:19.274 --> 00:22:22.634 And it's like when the last trumpet sounds, I'm outta here. 00:22:22.904 --> 00:22:25.394 And it's like flames coming up. 00:22:25.514 --> 00:22:29.475 And it's like, if you think you're right, you know you better be right. 00:22:29.834 --> 00:22:34.784 Or smoking or non-smoking, like eternity smoking or non-smoking. 00:22:35.144 --> 00:22:37.814 People think they're so clever with these bumper stickers. 00:22:38.104 --> 00:22:39.874 But all they're doing really is offending people. 00:22:39.874 --> 00:22:43.264 I can't imagine anyone who's ever had their mind changed by a bumper sticker. 00:22:44.244 --> 00:22:46.104 So what is that viewpoint? 00:22:46.704 --> 00:22:53.814 Well, it's this, that, that creation and animals are just a dramatic backdrop. 00:22:54.774 --> 00:22:58.074 Even our bodies, our dramatic backdrop to a transaction that 00:22:58.074 --> 00:23:00.684 goes on between our soul and God. 00:23:00.864 --> 00:23:03.804 And it's a really escapist kind of understanding. 00:23:04.044 --> 00:23:08.034 So now you have another theological de-motivation to 00:23:08.034 --> 00:23:09.534 be invested in this world. 00:23:10.164 --> 00:23:13.074 'cause this world's temporary, this world's gonna be destroyed. 00:23:13.464 --> 00:23:15.264 And so let's save souls. 00:23:15.264 --> 00:23:18.444 So they have soul winners, bibles, and people are seeing 00:23:18.444 --> 00:23:20.214 how many souls they can save. 00:23:20.634 --> 00:23:24.714 Well what in the world's a soul, aside from like, dig down into me, where is it? 00:23:24.774 --> 00:23:28.284 You know, like it is it so spirit. 00:23:28.284 --> 00:23:33.354 My my point is that if you wanna find the most spiritual thing, 00:23:33.745 --> 00:23:35.485 really get to know another person. 00:23:35.874 --> 00:23:37.944 'cause God is, is in there. 00:23:38.949 --> 00:23:39.759 If, if, yeah. 00:23:39.789 --> 00:23:44.019 So theologically speaking, if God wants to demonstrate love, then God 00:23:44.019 --> 00:23:49.179 takes on human flesh and has to live in under the contingency that we live in. 00:23:49.449 --> 00:23:50.259 And what does he do? 00:23:50.259 --> 00:23:51.609 He crosses boundaries. 00:23:51.609 --> 00:23:54.249 He goes to, to where lepers are. 00:23:54.309 --> 00:23:56.889 He, he invites the tax collector nobody likes. 00:23:56.889 --> 00:24:01.800 He, he hangs around with women and gives them credibility to their testimony. 00:24:01.800 --> 00:24:03.750 He, you know, all these sorts of things. 00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:04.710 So you have 00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:07.169 Rupert Isaacson: all good ways to get yourself crucified, basically. 00:24:07.169 --> 00:24:07.260 Yeah, 00:24:07.770 --> 00:24:08.340 Ben Connor: exactly. 00:24:08.340 --> 00:24:13.459 Especially when your followers start saying your Lord, in a world 00:24:13.459 --> 00:24:18.120 where the Roman imperial coins make that very claim about their rulers. 00:24:18.300 --> 00:24:18.749 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:24:19.229 --> 00:24:20.760 What's what's interesting with that? 00:24:20.810 --> 00:24:22.909 Okay, so that, there's just a bunch of things there. 00:24:22.989 --> 00:24:28.830 One is that one, one of the as you know, people who interpret, old Testament stuff 00:24:28.950 --> 00:24:33.060 and Book of Revelation and the rapture and all of that, which is very much the 00:24:33.060 --> 00:24:41.000 sort of American punishment based, you know, idea of Christianity and talking 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:42.830 about sort of Christ and antichrist. 00:24:43.340 --> 00:24:47.660 And I've often thought that in the book of Revelation where it says the antichrist 00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:51.500 is gonna come along, I say, was that one person or was that the sort of collective? 00:24:52.010 --> 00:24:57.830 And it seems that there's an awful lot of talk by people who espouse 00:24:57.830 --> 00:25:02.510 themselves to be Christians, talking about highly unchristian things like 00:25:03.110 --> 00:25:11.270 my right to have automatic weapons or my right to be just a dick to people 00:25:11.810 --> 00:25:13.580 or to be hostile in whatever way. 00:25:14.659 --> 00:25:16.939 That's antichrist, that's anti ethical to Christ. 00:25:16.939 --> 00:25:17.570 That's antichrist. 00:25:17.570 --> 00:25:18.574 That's antichrist. 00:25:19.635 --> 00:25:19.855 And. 00:25:21.589 --> 00:25:30.354 So I've often thought, oh, I see the antichrist is this espousing of antichrist 00:25:32.389 --> 00:25:35.749 beliefs under the banner of Christ. 00:25:35.989 --> 00:25:36.829 Okay, that makes sense. 00:25:36.829 --> 00:25:40.219 And now of course it's, this is not the first generation in which that's happened, 00:25:40.429 --> 00:25:43.549 and that's been going on, you know, ever since Christianity became a, you 00:25:43.549 --> 00:25:45.589 know, a look at the Spanish Inquisition. 00:25:45.949 --> 00:25:57.079 But nonetheless, we sort of ought to be past that now and perhaps are, you 00:25:57.079 --> 00:25:59.989 know, so it's exciting to me when you say 00:26:00.089 --> 00:26:08.519 that within the evangelical, which I, I, I have experienced as punishment based, 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:13.919 basically join our club or you'll get a hell, and saving souls or getting souls. 00:26:14.369 --> 00:26:16.649 The only other person I ever know who seems to go out to 00:26:16.649 --> 00:26:17.849 get souls seems to be Satan. 00:26:17.939 --> 00:26:20.519 You know, they, they was talking about the devil went down to Georgia. 00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:21.629 He was looking for soulless steel. 00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:22.439 He was in a bag. 00:26:22.439 --> 00:26:23.279 He was way behind. 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:24.164 He was willing to make a deal. 00:26:25.824 --> 00:26:28.380 He seemed quite motivated to get souls right. 00:26:29.459 --> 00:26:33.659 Presumably God can look after souls. 00:26:33.959 --> 00:26:35.339 And, and here's full disclosure. 00:26:35.339 --> 00:26:38.279 I'm a full on card carrying for, for listeners too. 00:26:38.489 --> 00:26:40.649 I'm a full on card carrying believer in God. 00:26:40.709 --> 00:26:42.359 I believe in God. 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:44.039 I so believe in God. 00:26:44.439 --> 00:26:46.689 I cannot tell you who God is or what God is. 00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:52.009 I wouldn't presume to be able to do that, but somewhere within me, there's 00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:54.499 never been any, never been any question. 00:26:54.829 --> 00:26:59.899 But God is not somebody who creates. 00:27:00.274 --> 00:27:04.894 People in order to cast them into a fiery pit because that would be God 00:27:04.894 --> 00:27:06.694 as a sort of petulant 12-year-old. 00:27:07.245 --> 00:27:07.544 Well if you 00:27:07.544 --> 00:27:10.004 Ben Connor: do that, look how much control that gives you if you do it. 00:27:10.425 --> 00:27:10.455 Mm. 00:27:10.455 --> 00:27:15.284 I mean that all fits into the same thing of mastery, domination, and control. 00:27:15.435 --> 00:27:20.545 So they've taken a, a worldview and created something, you know, they've 00:27:20.545 --> 00:27:24.355 taken this category of Christian and filled it with something that allows 00:27:24.355 --> 00:27:29.035 them to have power and domination and control to predict Absolutely. 00:27:29.215 --> 00:27:29.575 Explain. 00:27:29.860 --> 00:27:29.980 Absolutely. 00:27:29.980 --> 00:27:30.055 And it 00:27:30.055 --> 00:27:32.935 Rupert Isaacson: just becomes Pharisees and a priesthood and, and all of that. 00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:33.805 I, I, I get it. 00:27:33.865 --> 00:27:34.615 You know, and so it's 00:27:34.615 --> 00:27:39.145 Ben Connor: a malformation and I think many Christians then are malformed into 00:27:39.145 --> 00:27:45.745 this expression of Christianity that is really incongruent with the Christ that 00:27:45.745 --> 00:27:48.295 they claim in their title, in their name. 00:27:48.295 --> 00:27:48.505 And 00:27:48.835 --> 00:27:51.925 Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if I'm Christian, I dunno if I'm not Christian, 00:27:52.255 --> 00:27:56.515 you know, I, I hang out at the Bushman tra fires my, my experiences of God. 00:27:57.235 --> 00:28:01.705 Are as much within watching a healer in the Kalahari 00:28:04.165 --> 00:28:08.905 use leopard energy to pull a sickness outta somebody as it is 00:28:09.385 --> 00:28:13.195 to do something within our culture. 00:28:13.345 --> 00:28:17.725 And at the same time, I absolutely think that at the Mystic Center 00:28:17.725 --> 00:28:21.355 of all religions is, is, is the sort of same expression of God. 00:28:21.715 --> 00:28:25.315 And you find that kind of c nature-based shamanism within 00:28:25.315 --> 00:28:27.024 certain types of Christianity. 00:28:27.139 --> 00:28:32.395 You, you might find it in c sort of Catholic shamanic overlaid things 00:28:32.395 --> 00:28:34.225 down in Central South America. 00:28:34.435 --> 00:28:37.094 You might find it in France of Assisi. 00:28:37.304 --> 00:28:42.524 You might find it in the Celtic Christian outlook and, and so on. 00:28:43.105 --> 00:28:43.555 So the kind 00:28:43.555 --> 00:28:47.395 Ben Connor: of Christianity then that you're allergic to is the kind that 00:28:47.395 --> 00:28:49.555 asks you to be a cultural apprentice. 00:28:49.555 --> 00:28:52.195 It's, it's, you have to become a cultural apprentice. 00:28:52.405 --> 00:28:52.555 It's the 00:28:52.555 --> 00:28:53.635 Rupert Isaacson: kind that wants to. 00:28:54.355 --> 00:28:55.375 Sell off Yellowstone. 00:28:56.305 --> 00:28:56.635 Yeah. 00:28:56.665 --> 00:28:57.055 Right. 00:28:57.055 --> 00:28:57.295 Yeah. 00:28:57.295 --> 00:28:58.405 That's what I'm allergic to. 00:28:58.825 --> 00:28:59.545 Ben Connor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:29:01.045 --> 00:29:03.085 Rupert Isaacson: That seems the anti anti creation. 00:29:03.925 --> 00:29:07.145 Ben Connor: It wants to take indigenous people's holy spaces and name 'em 00:29:07.145 --> 00:29:10.095 after prominent American folks. 00:29:10.095 --> 00:29:10.755 Right, right. 00:29:10.755 --> 00:29:11.715 Well, every, every church 00:29:11.715 --> 00:29:15.135 Rupert Isaacson: in, in Europe is built on a Pagan site, but yeah. 00:29:15.165 --> 00:29:16.485 No ex exactly. 00:29:16.485 --> 00:29:19.850 The desecration of, of nature, the destruct. 00:29:19.855 --> 00:29:19.995 So you 00:29:19.995 --> 00:29:23.295 Ben Connor: don't have, so they don't have a theological paradigm for engaging it. 00:29:23.295 --> 00:29:27.165 So that's what, what's happened in a sense, is those original moves of 00:29:27.165 --> 00:29:29.295 the Christian movement sort of stop. 00:29:29.625 --> 00:29:31.965 So, I mean, originally it was a Jewish sect, right. 00:29:32.205 --> 00:29:33.975 And then it becomes. 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:34.790 Greek. 00:29:35.030 --> 00:29:38.450 And when it becomes Greek, it gets the treasure of Greek 00:29:38.450 --> 00:29:42.260 philosophical understanding, but then it creates, creates doctrines. 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:42.590 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:29:42.595 --> 00:29:42.625 Yeah. 00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:43.250 Ben Connor: Right. 00:29:43.340 --> 00:29:45.380 That then are exclusive of other people. 00:29:45.380 --> 00:29:48.860 And then along with Constantine power, you have the ability, 00:29:49.250 --> 00:29:50.480 not just to, to He's de spoiled 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:51.440 Rupert Isaacson: his wife, by the way. 00:29:51.710 --> 00:29:51.800 Right. 00:29:51.800 --> 00:29:52.070 No, 00:29:52.070 --> 00:29:52.670 Ben Connor: this is this. 00:29:52.670 --> 00:29:54.680 It's, I'm not, he's not a wonderful figure. 00:29:55.040 --> 00:29:55.430 Right. 00:29:55.700 --> 00:29:59.770 He the reason there's a Julie in the apostate is because who, who came after 00:29:59.770 --> 00:30:04.690 Constantine, who didn't like Christianity at all, and, and put his face on the 00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:08.230 coin with a big philosopher's beard to give the Christians the finger and 00:30:08.230 --> 00:30:12.670 put astrological signs on the back and said, Rome needs to go back to. 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:17.440 The, the what we were is because Constantine had killed every 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.120 potential person who could, you know, challenge him as a Christian emperor. 00:30:22.330 --> 00:30:26.140 But what you have then is you have power and Christianity together. 00:30:26.140 --> 00:30:26.200 Yeah. 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.070 And in order to keep a peaceable kingdom, here's the doctrine 00:30:30.070 --> 00:30:31.360 that we are gonna agree on. 00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:32.650 So there aren't these factions, 00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:34.750 Rupert Isaacson: ene Christianity, Catholic, right. 00:30:34.900 --> 00:30:35.740 Orthodox, which, 00:30:35.800 --> 00:30:39.070 Ben Connor: and here we go to our problem with creation, ene 00:30:39.070 --> 00:30:43.660 Christianity is responding to the question of the salvation of humans. 00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:49.990 Not the broader biblical narrative about the restoration of the world. 00:30:51.070 --> 00:30:54.490 That all of creation is groaning to be redeemed. 00:30:54.760 --> 00:30:57.940 That that according to their own scripture, Christ took on 00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:01.900 flesh, not just humanity, but took on all flesh and redeems it. 00:31:01.900 --> 00:31:04.660 All that all things come together in Christ. 00:31:06.115 --> 00:31:09.540 So that, that is supposed to be the Christian message, but ene 00:31:09.540 --> 00:31:13.200 Christianity is all about the salvation of individuals where you're 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.030 gonna have fights over an iota. 00:31:15.030 --> 00:31:20.790 Homo states, you know, homo us, Ian, people get excommunicated. 00:31:20.790 --> 00:31:21.630 Now you have power. 00:31:21.630 --> 00:31:23.790 You could actually kill 'em if they have a different view, 00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:24.480 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:28.620 Ben Connor: And so there's, there's, so we, we have that in the US that 00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:30.480 it's of benefit to be a Christian. 00:31:32.145 --> 00:31:34.485 That it gives you a certain kind of power. 00:31:35.475 --> 00:31:39.375 And, and the theological questions that were asked, in the exception of 00:31:39.375 --> 00:31:43.905 Christianity, were about the salvation of the human and not about the restoration 00:31:43.905 --> 00:31:45.555 and redemption of all of creation. 00:31:46.155 --> 00:31:48.765 And we just really haven't developed much since then. 00:31:48.765 --> 00:31:51.495 But there have always been people who speak against that. 00:31:51.705 --> 00:31:55.755 You mentioned Francis of assi, but even contemporarily. 00:31:55.755 --> 00:31:58.524 There was Pope Francis who just passed away, wrote a beautiful 00:31:58.524 --> 00:32:02.274 piece on creation and theology. 00:32:02.615 --> 00:32:06.955 There's a book by Victoria lores called church of the Wild. 00:32:07.285 --> 00:32:09.175 That's about wild Christianity. 00:32:09.175 --> 00:32:11.455 There's Thomas Berry, a Catholic. 00:32:11.905 --> 00:32:16.105 He called himself a Biolog Biolog. 00:32:16.105 --> 00:32:16.315 Rupert Isaacson: So 00:32:16.315 --> 00:32:16.435 Ben Connor: he 00:32:16.435 --> 00:32:16.585 Rupert Isaacson: is. 00:32:16.945 --> 00:32:17.125 Love that. 00:32:17.845 --> 00:32:18.205 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:32:18.235 --> 00:32:19.075 Rupert Isaacson: But where are these people? 00:32:19.075 --> 00:32:19.975 Why don't we hear about them? 00:32:19.975 --> 00:32:21.715 Why are you the first person telling us about it? 00:32:22.900 --> 00:32:25.320 Ben Connor: Well, I'm the first person telling you, you know, I yeah, 00:32:25.320 --> 00:32:25.950 Rupert Isaacson: but come on. 00:32:26.010 --> 00:32:26.400 I mean, 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:26.670 Ben Connor: yeah. 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:29.190 It's, it's not a, it's not, it's not a center movement 00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:32.460 Rupert Isaacson: is what, it's a peripheral movement and why, isn't it? 00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:34.890 Or, or is it going to become one? 00:32:36.030 --> 00:32:38.550 Ben Connor: Well, in part it's a giving up of power and 00:32:38.550 --> 00:32:40.170 nobody likes to give up power. 00:32:40.175 --> 00:32:40.475 Mm-hmm. 00:32:40.710 --> 00:32:42.120 It's a distribution of power. 00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:43.680 It's an equaling of people. 00:32:43.890 --> 00:32:45.460 It's it's, it's costly. 00:32:45.895 --> 00:32:48.910 It, it requires thinking about what you eat. 00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:52.300 It requires, you know, it, it's just not the American way. 00:32:52.540 --> 00:32:55.530 It's not about it's not about gaining things and possessing 00:32:55.530 --> 00:32:56.880 things and controlling things. 00:32:57.060 --> 00:33:02.730 It's about giving that sort of a, a worldview up and committing to a 00:33:02.730 --> 00:33:06.630 kind of flourishing that might mean in order for mutual flourishing. 00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:07.890 You're standing quite an American 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:08.430 Rupert Isaacson: by this point. 00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:09.001 Yeah, yeah, 00:33:09.690 --> 00:33:09.900 Ben Connor: yeah. 00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:10.320 We'll see. 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.550 And to many, I'll sound un-Christian, but that doesn't hurt my feelings either, 00:33:14.760 --> 00:33:14.940 Rupert Isaacson: you know? 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:15.210 Yeah. 00:33:16.350 --> 00:33:16.890 Okay. 00:33:17.340 --> 00:33:20.580 So you've convinced me that there is a movement. 00:33:23.115 --> 00:33:29.385 What's your work with this movement to bring us to an idea 00:33:29.385 --> 00:33:31.155 of stewardship rather than. 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:33.630 Effing it all up. 00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:34.620 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:33:34.980 --> 00:33:38.430 And I would even say stewardship's a limited term because it suggests that 00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:43.080 we have the knowledge and wisdom to, I mean, ha have we done more good or more 00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:46.380 harm for the earth than even in the stewardship things we've tried to do? 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:47.370 I don't know. 00:33:47.370 --> 00:33:47.790 Right. 00:33:48.120 --> 00:33:48.240 Yeah. 00:33:48.350 --> 00:33:52.970 To some degree, stewardships is a, is an, is an arrogant position that 00:33:52.970 --> 00:33:57.140 doesn't recognize our limited knowledge base and doesn't draw upon knowledge. 00:33:57.254 --> 00:33:57.774 Well, there's knowledge 00:33:57.800 --> 00:33:58.189 Rupert Isaacson: is human. 00:33:58.189 --> 00:33:58.459 Right, 00:33:58.910 --> 00:33:59.689 Ben Connor: right, right. 00:33:59.959 --> 00:34:00.290 Yeah. 00:34:00.290 --> 00:34:04.010 And, and again, here, going back to scripture and Job, one of the 00:34:04.010 --> 00:34:07.070 amazing verses when Job is trying to make sense of what's going on 00:34:07.070 --> 00:34:10.340 with his life is God's response. 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:14.270 Ask the beasts and they'll tell you, ask the birds of the air and they'll tell 00:34:14.270 --> 00:34:17.210 you, and we've broken this conversation. 00:34:17.769 --> 00:34:21.384 We've, we've, we're only talking to ourselves as Thomas Berry, 00:34:21.385 --> 00:34:23.095 this Catholic theologian. 00:34:23.095 --> 00:34:26.215 He says, we we're not talk, we're not listening to the rivers. 00:34:26.215 --> 00:34:28.824 We're not listening to the animals, to the plants. 00:34:28.824 --> 00:34:30.505 We're only talking to ourselves. 00:34:30.505 --> 00:34:34.705 We've, we have a, we've lost the wisdom of the, of the land. 00:34:35.814 --> 00:34:37.404 Where's Thomas Berry based? 00:34:38.755 --> 00:34:39.654 Oh, I don't know. 00:34:39.654 --> 00:34:42.645 You can find his I don't, I think he's passed away recently. 00:34:42.725 --> 00:34:44.015 Sacred Universe. 00:34:44.015 --> 00:34:46.775 The Sacred Universe and Evening Sacred Universe. 00:34:47.135 --> 00:34:48.455 That's one of his brilliant books. 00:34:48.455 --> 00:34:48.930 Was he, was he 00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:49.210 Rupert Isaacson: American? 00:34:49.235 --> 00:34:49.955 Was he British? 00:34:49.955 --> 00:34:50.675 Where's he from? 00:34:51.975 --> 00:34:53.645 I think he's a us Catholic. 00:34:53.645 --> 00:34:57.725 Was he Barry with an IE or A-Y-B-E-R-R-Y. 00:34:58.235 --> 00:35:01.055 Thomas Barry, the Sacred Universe Theologian. 00:35:01.355 --> 00:35:01.955 Got, okay. 00:35:01.955 --> 00:35:02.705 Gotta check it out. 00:35:03.240 --> 00:35:04.800 Sounds like I won't be able to have him on the show. 00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:07.080 You're gonna have to interpret him for me. 00:35:07.399 --> 00:35:07.429 Okay. 00:35:08.089 --> 00:35:08.509 Well, that, 00:35:08.509 --> 00:35:11.599 Ben Connor: so this is, that, that's a, where people are talking about it though. 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:15.559 Matthew Scully wrote a book on Dominion where he's challenging 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:16.939 this whole notion of dominion. 00:35:16.939 --> 00:35:21.124 It's called Matthew Scully, S-C-U-L-L-Y. 00:35:21.394 --> 00:35:21.684 Okay. 00:35:21.740 --> 00:35:22.789 Matthew Scully. 00:35:22.789 --> 00:35:23.449 Dominion. 00:35:23.524 --> 00:35:23.604 Rupert Isaacson: Dominion. 00:35:23.929 --> 00:35:24.289 Okay. 00:35:24.289 --> 00:35:24.439 And 00:35:24.439 --> 00:35:27.439 Ben Connor: one of the things he says right at the start of the book is this. 00:35:27.889 --> 00:35:35.119 He says, when you look at a rabbit and you can see only a pest or vermin, or a meal, 00:35:35.479 --> 00:35:41.599 or a commodity, or a laboratory subject, you aren't seeing the rabbit anymore. 00:35:41.929 --> 00:35:45.469 You're seeing only yourself and the schemes and appetites 00:35:45.469 --> 00:35:46.429 you bring to the world. 00:35:46.729 --> 00:35:47.299 Wow. 00:35:48.214 --> 00:35:49.834 And that's what Dominion is. 00:35:49.865 --> 00:35:52.535 It's the schemes and appetites we bring to the world. 00:35:53.165 --> 00:35:54.694 We've broken the conversation. 00:35:54.814 --> 00:35:58.714 We like the idea of kingdom, and we like to think we take on the kingly 00:35:58.714 --> 00:36:01.714 role and then we're no longer kin. 00:36:02.254 --> 00:36:04.895 We're not in a kinship relationship with all of creation. 00:36:04.895 --> 00:36:10.984 So how do I bridge the gap between my inherited Christianity and the vision 00:36:11.225 --> 00:36:13.625 that I wanna point people towards? 00:36:13.714 --> 00:36:13.955 Right. 00:36:13.955 --> 00:36:15.035 A couple of ways. 00:36:15.484 --> 00:36:15.515 Okay. 00:36:15.515 --> 00:36:21.584 One is Christian Indigenous Americans and Indigenous American Christians 00:36:22.095 --> 00:36:25.305 who have a whole different paradigm. 00:36:25.979 --> 00:36:30.689 When they read scriptures and when they come to faith, that critiques 00:36:30.689 --> 00:36:32.009 the one that they've inherited. 00:36:32.069 --> 00:36:35.849 In other words, through their scripture and their reading, now they have an 00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:40.829 independent standard by which they can critique the colonizer's Christianity. 00:36:41.309 --> 00:36:43.259 And how do they critique it? 00:36:43.259 --> 00:36:47.699 Well, they critique it as people who live on Turtle Island, whose mythology 00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:50.490 is filled with animals in wise roles. 00:36:50.999 --> 00:36:55.950 They critique it as people who, when they, they read they read the Bible, 00:36:55.950 --> 00:36:59.910 it's a worldview that makes more sense to them than a, a modern enlightenment 00:36:59.910 --> 00:37:05.759 worldview where there are spirits and angels and, and energies and animals who 00:37:05.759 --> 00:37:11.129 are deeply involved in, in the telling of these stories and in the redemption. 00:37:11.970 --> 00:37:16.719 So, one gentleman in particular, Randy Woodley, he talked to 00:37:16.779 --> 00:37:18.489 he, he, he interviewed Randy 00:37:18.489 --> 00:37:18.939 Rupert Isaacson: Woodley. 00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:23.499 Ben Connor: Woodley, W-O-O-D-L-Y, Randy Woodley. 00:37:23.829 --> 00:37:23.949 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:27.759 Ben Connor: And I don't remember his tribe, but he talked to many 00:37:27.759 --> 00:37:31.659 different tribes and he found something they all have in common. 00:37:32.499 --> 00:37:34.689 He called the harmony way. 00:37:35.469 --> 00:37:36.819 He calls it the Harmony Way. 00:37:36.819 --> 00:37:41.379 And it's a way of being in the world that's not so competitive, that sees 00:37:41.379 --> 00:37:46.839 the wisdom of animals that doesn't try to manipulate and control and, 00:37:46.839 --> 00:37:51.009 and it's, it's just a such a different sort of kinship worldview to the 00:37:51.009 --> 00:37:55.049 modern enlightenment worldview that's informed American Christianity. 00:37:55.379 --> 00:37:59.309 That I would say it's almost a different Christianity that's more faithful to the 00:37:59.309 --> 00:38:05.399 biblical vision of shalom, shalom, peace, harmony, wellbeing, this sort of thing. 00:38:06.329 --> 00:38:11.139 So conversation partners like Randy Woodley I'm looking 00:38:11.139 --> 00:38:13.499 up right here at my shelf. 00:38:14.384 --> 00:38:17.714 If I can find my glasses, and I have like three different pairs of glasses, 00:38:17.714 --> 00:38:19.575 depending on how far away something is. 00:38:20.325 --> 00:38:24.235 We have becoming kin by Patty RAIC. 00:38:24.265 --> 00:38:30.055 We have restoring the kinship view by four arrows and another author. 00:38:30.335 --> 00:38:35.045 So these indigenous worldviews, these ways of understanding how are we 00:38:35.045 --> 00:38:41.405 supposed to be in the world then is, is informs their Christian expression. 00:38:41.795 --> 00:38:42.125 Right? 00:38:42.275 --> 00:38:46.385 And that's the same move that happened when Christianity became a Jewish. 00:38:46.415 --> 00:38:51.215 It went from a Jewish sect to include Jewish, to include Greek people and then 00:38:51.215 --> 00:38:55.475 the treasures of Greek philosophy come in and have problems, but also things. 00:38:55.715 --> 00:39:00.635 And then it goes to the Germanic people and those, and it goes to, you know, 00:39:00.635 --> 00:39:02.255 when Christianity goes to Africa. 00:39:03.590 --> 00:39:11.990 Particularly Sub-Saharan Africa, you have a critique of colonizing Christianity by 00:39:11.990 --> 00:39:16.400 African indigenous churches that didn't wanna give up an African worldview. 00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:19.880 That doesn't start with the Cartesian, I think therefore I am, 00:39:20.150 --> 00:39:25.400 but starts more with like an muntu, which is we are, therefore I am. 00:39:26.270 --> 00:39:30.440 So it's a more communal understanding of self than an individualistic one. 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:31.671 And okay. 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:32.270 Okay. 00:39:32.270 --> 00:39:32.330 Now 00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:36.110 Rupert Isaacson: something I go to with that is again, because my family's 00:39:36.110 --> 00:39:41.120 Southern African, because a lot of these cultures that you've include, and also 00:39:41.120 --> 00:39:47.600 I'm half Jewish, so Jewish culture, a lot of Southern African culture, you're 00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:52.940 still talking about agricultural, post agricultural and herding cultures 00:39:53.540 --> 00:39:55.550 that are effectively warrior cultures. 00:39:55.550 --> 00:39:55.580 I. 00:39:56.345 --> 00:40:01.985 With the same hierarchical systems and endless cycles of blood feud, 00:40:01.985 --> 00:40:07.535 warfare, atrocity for, for horsemen of the apocalypse up and being very 00:40:07.535 --> 00:40:10.865 happy to colonize each other when they're not the ones being colonized. 00:40:10.865 --> 00:40:16.745 You know, the Zulus, the Ani, the Dani, which was the, you know, the Zulus in 00:40:16.805 --> 00:40:20.315 South Africa, colonizing everybody else around them until they ran up against 00:40:20.315 --> 00:40:25.235 the, the, the buzz and the British who then colonized them you know, west Africa. 00:40:26.285 --> 00:40:30.215 Lots of colonization going on there, you know, within that subcontinent. 00:40:30.725 --> 00:40:33.905 The Germanic tribes colonizing within Europe before they 00:40:33.905 --> 00:40:34.925 went on blah, blah, blah. 00:40:34.925 --> 00:40:39.305 The Romans obviously, and then, you know, second Temple Judaism 00:40:40.355 --> 00:40:44.225 by no means a nature based thing. 00:40:44.565 --> 00:40:45.525 You know, by then. 00:40:46.095 --> 00:40:49.995 You know, Judaism having gone from, you know, way back, pre bronze age, 00:40:50.475 --> 00:40:55.665 a polytheistic thing to eventually, you know, Yahweh and his wife to 00:40:56.205 --> 00:41:03.375 Yahweh, to some semblance of what we now know to, you know, a, a, a sect 00:41:03.735 --> 00:41:06.195 that becomes Christian much later on. 00:41:06.345 --> 00:41:09.825 But by the time that happens, of course, you know that, you know that, that 00:41:09.825 --> 00:41:14.595 the empire building colonizing people, they just happen to run up against the 00:41:14.595 --> 00:41:18.675 Romans, you know, who were just better at it, you know, for whatever reason. 00:41:19.395 --> 00:41:20.565 So we're all the same 00:41:23.355 --> 00:41:25.515 dysfunctional, yeah. 00:41:25.565 --> 00:41:32.900 Creation, destroying people except for the non-war tribes, the non-war 00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:33.980 people, the hunter gatherers. 00:41:33.980 --> 00:41:36.350 And, you know, we seem to have this at the beginning of the Bible, 00:41:36.350 --> 00:41:39.210 don't we, with Cain and Abel, you know, Cain is the farmer. 00:41:40.110 --> 00:41:43.260 Kills his brother Abel, who seems to be with the beast of the field, the hunting 00:41:43.260 --> 00:41:47.610 gatherer, classic thing, you know, the hunt, the farmers can't tolerate free 00:41:47.610 --> 00:41:49.260 moving people going across the land. 00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:51.750 They can't tolerate free moving animals going across the land. 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.370 So we end up with a parable. 00:41:53.370 --> 00:41:56.130 It seems a, a metaphor within story. 00:41:56.130 --> 00:41:57.990 You know, Cain and Abel, blah, blah, blah. 00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:02.310 And then the, the mark of Cain, the curse of Cain being that he wanders forever. 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.050 Well, of course, what do farmers have to do? 00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:08.220 They exhaust the land or they have lots and lots of kids because you need 00:42:08.220 --> 00:42:11.790 lots and lots of kids to put the crop in the soil and bring the crop out. 00:42:11.970 --> 00:42:14.310 So you can only pass the land onto the oldest son. 00:42:14.310 --> 00:42:17.430 So everyone else has to go out and colonize somewhere else and 00:42:17.490 --> 00:42:18.930 mess everyone else's lives up. 00:42:19.200 --> 00:42:20.760 You know, this is the curse, blah, blah, blah. 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:21.210 It keeps going. 00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:22.500 We know this 00:42:25.620 --> 00:42:29.940 and yes, of course evangelical American Christianity is one of the many 00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:33.990 expressions of this, but so are some of the expressions of Christianity in Africa 00:42:33.990 --> 00:42:36.420 or, you know, other parts of the world. 00:42:40.335 --> 00:42:45.675 And I've always, I've never seen like the, the problem with the 00:42:45.675 --> 00:42:47.325 idea of say evolution and God. 00:42:47.325 --> 00:42:51.315 It's like, well, why wouldn't an intelligent God de design something as 00:42:51.315 --> 00:42:53.295 amazing as, you know, as, as evolution? 00:42:53.595 --> 00:42:57.855 I don't see that as being in any way contradictory, you know, Darwin himself 00:42:57.855 --> 00:42:58.800 as a Christian, blah, blah, blah. 00:42:59.745 --> 00:43:02.145 Okay, but what do we do with it all? 00:43:03.115 --> 00:43:09.655 The, the, the most functional people I've ever met on the planet were son 00:43:09.655 --> 00:43:15.325 Bushman, non-Christians, who many Christians I know would say are damned 00:43:17.605 --> 00:43:24.535 who yet lived live a, a, a very Christ-like existence, both in terms 00:43:24.535 --> 00:43:27.955 of how they relate to each other, how they relate to outsiders, and 00:43:27.955 --> 00:43:29.905 how they relate to the planet. 00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:38.080 Given that Christianity comes out of Second Temple Judaism, which is by 00:43:38.080 --> 00:43:39.850 no means an environmental movement, 00:43:43.150 --> 00:43:46.600 how do we go back to Abel? 00:43:46.900 --> 00:43:50.170 How do we sort of leapfrog back over Cain and go back to 00:43:50.170 --> 00:43:55.870 Abel and keep our Christ thing? 00:43:56.650 --> 00:43:59.320 I think I could answer that question, but I kind of want to hear it from you. 00:44:00.250 --> 00:44:04.750 This is intriguing to me and it's also intriguing to me that this environmental 00:44:04.750 --> 00:44:08.230 movement, by the way, within Christianity, I've not heard it out the uk. 00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:11.500 I've not heard it out of Africa either, so it's, it seems to be very 00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:14.080 fitting that it comes out of the USA. 00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:17.770 Who are the people with the Christians who are kind of messing it up the most? 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.890 Well, America land of extremes. 00:44:20.980 --> 00:44:21.220 Okay. 00:44:21.220 --> 00:44:23.380 You're gonna find people like you. 00:44:24.250 --> 00:44:24.490 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:44:24.670 --> 00:44:27.330 Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm 00:44:27.330 --> 00:44:34.510 an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping 00:44:34.510 --> 00:44:39.230 people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field. 00:44:39.309 --> 00:44:40.150 Are you a therapist? 00:44:40.570 --> 00:44:41.840 Are you a caregiver? 00:44:42.230 --> 00:44:43.240 Are you a parent? 00:44:43.675 --> 00:44:45.705 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:44:47.145 --> 00:44:52.085 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:44:52.125 --> 00:44:53.755 I really didn't know what to do. 00:44:53.955 --> 00:44:59.224 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:44:59.265 --> 00:45:02.065 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:45:02.215 --> 00:45:03.105 Temple Grandin. 00:45:03.305 --> 00:45:04.945 And she told me what to do. 00:45:04.995 --> 00:45:09.235 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:45:09.585 --> 00:45:14.035 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:45:14.295 --> 00:45:18.045 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:45:18.385 --> 00:45:22.285 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:45:23.315 --> 00:45:27.755 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:45:27.974 --> 00:45:30.014 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:45:30.674 --> 00:45:34.032 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:45:34.032 --> 00:45:36.294 It's almost laughably simple. 00:45:37.235 --> 00:45:39.935 The important thing is to begin. 00:45:40.865 --> 00:45:44.015 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:45:44.015 --> 00:45:47.305 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:45:48.335 --> 00:45:51.265 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:45:53.535 --> 00:45:56.040 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:45:56.480 --> 00:45:59.370 Take the online movement method course. 00:45:59.860 --> 00:46:01.230 It's in 40 countries. 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:03.900 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:46:04.100 --> 00:46:04.869 We really want to know. 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:09.379 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:46:09.729 --> 00:46:13.010 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.450 Can you explain to me then. 00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:24.920 No, can you, can you fantasize to me Go ahead. 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:25.580 20 years. 00:46:25.580 --> 00:46:32.450 A hundred years in your mind, what's coming out of Christian America and 00:46:32.450 --> 00:46:36.695 how do we turn it all around for the benefit of our planet and ourselves? 00:46:36.770 --> 00:46:39.470 Ben Connor: Yeah, I think it starts a couple of ways. 00:46:39.520 --> 00:46:45.230 Deb Rera there's another name for you, wrote a book called Ugia Ugia, 00:46:45.740 --> 00:46:47.720 and she talks about a ugia faith. 00:46:47.720 --> 00:46:50.120 But the way the book starts is when Mount St. 00:46:50.120 --> 00:46:53.660 Helen's exploded, everything's covered with ash. 00:46:53.870 --> 00:46:57.080 Everything looks like death, but under the logs. 00:46:58.265 --> 00:47:03.155 And under the rocks there's life and these are spaces of Ugia and 00:47:03.155 --> 00:47:05.555 it's grown back vibrant and lush. 00:47:05.915 --> 00:47:09.845 And she says we need to have the same kind of thing in our Christianity, 00:47:09.935 --> 00:47:14.315 in a sense and a Christianity that is exactly as you explained it. 00:47:14.525 --> 00:47:16.595 There are these pockets, ofia. 00:47:17.105 --> 00:47:19.715 So I think if we, if we set up these pockets 00:47:19.715 --> 00:47:20.795 Rupert Isaacson: called Refugia, I love it. 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:21.070 Okay. 00:47:21.075 --> 00:47:21.185 Ugia? 00:47:22.085 --> 00:47:22.445 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:47:22.985 --> 00:47:23.255 Yeah. 00:47:23.255 --> 00:47:26.615 You'd love to talk with Deb and Ron sra, actually, they'd 00:47:26.615 --> 00:47:27.935 be wonderful guests for you. 00:47:28.590 --> 00:47:28.880 Okay. 00:47:30.540 --> 00:47:30.830 Okay. 00:47:30.830 --> 00:47:31.070 Keep 00:47:31.075 --> 00:47:31.325 Rupert Isaacson: going. 00:47:31.865 --> 00:47:34.745 Ben Connor: So, so it's a, it's a place of growth. 00:47:34.745 --> 00:47:40.335 It's a place of, you know, of, of regrounding, of of moving forward, 00:47:40.905 --> 00:47:43.155 of life among what seems like death. 00:47:43.395 --> 00:47:49.095 And so then in my mind, I'm trying to create places of ugia within the church. 00:47:49.875 --> 00:47:52.695 And so this goes to one project I'm on right now. 00:47:53.055 --> 00:47:53.265 Okay. 00:47:54.225 --> 00:47:57.194 And I think the place to start is with the children. 00:47:58.404 --> 00:48:02.424 You know, Malaguzzi wrote that children have 100 languages 00:48:02.665 --> 00:48:04.765 and we take away 99 of them. 00:48:05.815 --> 00:48:08.914 In other words children communicate so many ways. 00:48:08.914 --> 00:48:10.834 Everything's a language, everything's a world. 00:48:11.134 --> 00:48:13.939 They're filled with wonder, in part because. 00:48:15.319 --> 00:48:18.890 They're not captive to their rational capacities and trying 00:48:18.890 --> 00:48:20.870 to name, explain control. 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:22.640 They know they don't know things. 00:48:22.640 --> 00:48:27.559 And, and as a result, they go into spaces with a kind of curiosity and they find 00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:31.490 a sense of connection, a sense of awe, a sense of wonder, humility and humility, 00:48:31.495 --> 00:48:33.499 and also a sense of lament and humility. 00:48:33.979 --> 00:48:35.660 This is a place to start, right? 00:48:35.990 --> 00:48:40.910 So if we can start in the church with our children, connecting them to nature 00:48:41.329 --> 00:48:46.189 as a theological conversation partner that's really not been listened to the 00:48:46.189 --> 00:48:52.889 same way since the printing press, I would say particularly in the us it's 00:48:52.889 --> 00:48:56.819 like this movement to give everybody a bible, everybody, seven or eight Bibles. 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:01.589 This sounds, I mean, this is something that you don't wanna, it'd be if 00:49:01.589 --> 00:49:06.269 I say this in a church or I say it at a seminary, it's gonna be, I'm 00:49:06.269 --> 00:49:08.069 really gonna get pushed back against. 00:49:08.249 --> 00:49:10.139 But why are we creating more Bibles? 00:49:12.165 --> 00:49:13.499 And why are we taking about this? 00:49:13.504 --> 00:49:15.225 What's that doing to the environment? 00:49:15.404 --> 00:49:20.654 It's a, because we're so word centered that now the Bible instead 00:49:20.654 --> 00:49:21.390 of something that, that a community. 00:49:21.390 --> 00:49:22.245 That was the word and the word was 00:49:22.245 --> 00:49:22.575 Rupert Isaacson: God. 00:49:22.575 --> 00:49:22.964 Logos. 00:49:23.535 --> 00:49:23.984 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:49:24.464 --> 00:49:28.604 So I mean, the Bible didn't even come into being so people could have it. 00:49:28.604 --> 00:49:34.274 For most of Christianity, you are a church that had maybe one letter from Paul or 00:49:34.274 --> 00:49:36.794 Luke Acts and another church had more. 00:49:36.884 --> 00:49:36.975 Mm-hmm. 00:49:37.214 --> 00:49:39.015 And when you met together, it'd be read. 00:49:39.294 --> 00:49:42.564 But the most important thing was your, your way of life in the world. 00:49:42.954 --> 00:49:44.574 How, what's your way of life in the world? 00:49:44.574 --> 00:49:51.744 But post printing press match that with Cartesian individualism and our 00:49:51.744 --> 00:49:53.634 tendency towards mastering control. 00:49:54.504 --> 00:49:56.124 Now everybody has their own Bible. 00:49:56.214 --> 00:49:57.924 Everybody's their own hope. 00:49:58.614 --> 00:50:00.864 Everybody's their own church to some degree. 00:50:01.254 --> 00:50:07.834 But this movement then what becomes squelched is God's voice in nature and the 00:50:07.834 --> 00:50:12.484 way we've organized our societies, make us less and less connected to this world. 00:50:13.054 --> 00:50:17.194 You know, we have conditioned environments and even within the churches, 00:50:17.194 --> 00:50:19.894 then you try to replicate things. 00:50:19.894 --> 00:50:25.084 A vault that goes to the heavens, well just step outside and look up, right? 00:50:25.114 --> 00:50:28.894 I, I was at this real, I was at a, at a camp once, and they took everybody 00:50:28.894 --> 00:50:34.324 from the camp inside a room and started saying, now imagine, you know, Jesus is 00:50:34.324 --> 00:50:36.094 there and Peter's walking on the water. 00:50:36.094 --> 00:50:37.174 Imagine a lake. 00:50:37.354 --> 00:50:38.464 I'm like, we were just outside. 00:50:38.464 --> 00:50:39.094 There was a lake. 00:50:39.124 --> 00:50:40.774 You know, go out to the lake. 00:50:41.194 --> 00:50:43.444 Why do we feel like we can't gain this wisdom? 00:50:43.444 --> 00:50:45.634 It's because it's about control. 00:50:46.490 --> 00:50:48.740 These wrong interpretations are dangerous. 00:50:49.009 --> 00:50:52.939 There's, but you know, anyways, the point being, yeah, I want you 00:50:52.939 --> 00:50:53.324 to pay, let's start with children. 00:50:53.424 --> 00:50:53.724 Pay me 00:50:53.724 --> 00:50:53.844 Rupert Isaacson: five. 00:50:53.865 --> 00:50:56.899 If I want you to pay me money, then I've got to Yeah. 00:50:56.959 --> 00:50:58.519 Get you in a room and brainwash you. 00:50:58.519 --> 00:50:59.059 Yeah, sure. 00:50:59.089 --> 00:51:00.199 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:51:00.349 --> 00:51:03.649 Ben Connor: So let's start with the children and let's teach the adults a new 00:51:03.649 --> 00:51:05.689 language through the eyes of children. 00:51:06.469 --> 00:51:08.539 So you learn that. 00:51:08.539 --> 00:51:13.129 So let's start with the assumption that children are theological creatures, 00:51:13.459 --> 00:51:16.759 that children have a connection to God, that God loves children, and 00:51:16.759 --> 00:51:20.449 that God's communicating to them in a way that they understand. 00:51:20.809 --> 00:51:20.929 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:51:20.990 --> 00:51:21.319 Well, that 00:51:21.324 --> 00:51:22.444 Ben Connor: makes the Bible secondary. 00:51:23.944 --> 00:51:24.034 Rupert Isaacson: True. 00:51:24.034 --> 00:51:25.354 You know, it does, it 00:51:25.354 --> 00:51:27.754 Ben Connor: doesn't mean that the Bible's unimportant, but for 00:51:27.754 --> 00:51:29.434 children, it makes it secondary. 00:51:29.434 --> 00:51:32.374 What's the most important thing is the encounter they have with 00:51:32.374 --> 00:51:33.754 the divine through creation. 00:51:33.964 --> 00:51:36.634 So let's learn the many languages of children and of 00:51:36.634 --> 00:51:37.894 children with disabilities. 00:51:38.344 --> 00:51:42.344 So, we actually got a grant from the Lilly Foundation to do this. 00:51:42.854 --> 00:51:47.804 And the first thing we did is three orientations for all the adults around 00:51:47.804 --> 00:51:52.934 disability theory, disability, theology, theology of children, children as 00:51:52.934 --> 00:51:58.304 spiritual beings, children as learning children as curious, a theology of 00:51:58.304 --> 00:52:02.694 wonder these sorts of things and a theology of nature and creatures. 00:52:03.594 --> 00:52:07.914 And, and so we, we, we prepared them and then we had six weeks 00:52:08.214 --> 00:52:11.934 where for four hours on a Sunday, we just followed the children. 00:52:12.564 --> 00:52:18.054 We followed them to see birds and, and put their arms out and see what kind 00:52:18.054 --> 00:52:22.224 of bird they are, and to hold snakes. 00:52:22.224 --> 00:52:23.694 Now, this is not snake handling. 00:52:23.694 --> 00:52:24.384 I wanna be clear. 00:52:24.384 --> 00:52:26.115 That's not the kind of Christianity I'm in. 00:52:26.444 --> 00:52:31.075 But just to to enjoy and appreciate creation, to play in the words, to create 00:52:31.075 --> 00:52:34.395 environments to, to, what's gonna change? 00:52:34.395 --> 00:52:41.205 The church is not a doctrine about how we should treat creatures. 00:52:41.625 --> 00:52:45.765 What's gonna change the church is a generation of people who are in love with 00:52:45.765 --> 00:52:51.915 the world that God created and see it as enchanted, that expect to encounter 00:52:51.915 --> 00:52:53.715 God when they're next to a horse. 00:52:53.895 --> 00:52:57.225 Expect to encounter God in the beautiful music of a stream. 00:52:57.585 --> 00:53:02.955 The holiest place I have is the pond behind my house where I have windy the 00:53:02.955 --> 00:53:08.445 willow tree dancing, watching me as I'm inside the pond, pulling out the algae, 00:53:08.595 --> 00:53:14.145 surrounded by a halo of fish who snap up everything I loosen where ducks come 00:53:14.145 --> 00:53:19.365 along the side and watch what I'm doing curiously, and let the red wing blackbird 00:53:19.365 --> 00:53:21.345 know I'm not coming for their nest. 00:53:21.345 --> 00:53:23.235 So you don't have to dive bomb his head. 00:53:23.385 --> 00:53:24.405 He's okay. 00:53:24.795 --> 00:53:25.275 You know. 00:53:25.425 --> 00:53:26.985 And the Oculus I have. 00:53:27.175 --> 00:53:30.745 Isn't in a dark room, a little hole that says God's present. 00:53:30.955 --> 00:53:33.355 It's the whole sky, you know? 00:53:33.355 --> 00:53:36.445 And the baptismal waters I have aren't confined to a 00:53:36.445 --> 00:53:38.965 fountain, but it's my whole pond. 00:53:39.235 --> 00:53:42.115 And I share these baptismal waters with the fish. 00:53:42.355 --> 00:53:45.925 So why would I wanna put chemicals in that's gonna hurt them if I 00:53:45.925 --> 00:53:47.965 could find a better way to coexist? 00:53:48.385 --> 00:53:52.555 Because these fish helped me make it through COVID as I went in federal. 00:53:52.555 --> 00:53:53.785 So anyway, this sounds like Harrison. 00:53:54.895 --> 00:53:55.795 Oh, absolutely. 00:53:55.795 --> 00:53:56.155 I'm good. 00:53:56.155 --> 00:53:56.275 Have 00:53:56.275 --> 00:53:57.925 Rupert Isaacson: the inquisition shown up at your house yet? 00:53:58.495 --> 00:53:58.825 Ben Connor: No. 00:53:58.825 --> 00:54:00.055 I'm sure they'll come though. 00:54:00.205 --> 00:54:03.705 And, and what a, what better way to go than, than than 00:54:03.705 --> 00:54:05.235 trying to enlarge the faith. 00:54:05.775 --> 00:54:10.915 Rupert Isaacson: Well, so in terms of pushback I, I, I love what you just 00:54:10.915 --> 00:54:13.105 said in, in, in terms of pushback. 00:54:13.185 --> 00:54:19.095 What pushback do you get on w working. 00:54:19.850 --> 00:54:22.700 With your Center for Disability and Ministry and 00:54:24.710 --> 00:54:29.720 looking at the wonder with which children engage in nature or 00:54:31.130 --> 00:54:35.990 nature and special needs, you know, your Lily grant it, it would seem 00:54:35.990 --> 00:54:38.120 insane to push back against that. 00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:43.430 So I'm interested to know what sort of insanities have, have, have arisen. 00:54:44.180 --> 00:54:46.460 Ben Connor: Well, you'll be interested to know. 00:54:46.460 --> 00:54:48.410 I've received almost no pushback. 00:54:49.010 --> 00:54:49.370 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:54:49.865 --> 00:54:50.735 Ben Connor: I just think you haven't 00:54:50.735 --> 00:54:51.605 Rupert Isaacson: publicized it yet. 00:54:52.865 --> 00:54:53.375 Ben Connor: Perhaps. 00:54:53.525 --> 00:54:54.210 We'll see how that goes. 00:54:55.025 --> 00:54:55.535 I mean, yeah. 00:54:55.535 --> 00:55:00.485 You know, I'm working on a book on harmony with horses where I'm promoting these 00:55:00.485 --> 00:55:05.075 sort of theological worldviews and, you know, I mean, I'm a published author. 00:55:05.075 --> 00:55:05.705 You are too. 00:55:05.705 --> 00:55:08.465 You know, once you put something out there, you know. 00:55:09.005 --> 00:55:10.055 People are gonna hate it. 00:55:10.265 --> 00:55:12.215 People are gonna think you're the worst thing ever. 00:55:12.495 --> 00:55:17.465 For me, in my, I wrote a book called disabling Mission, enabling Witness. 00:55:18.095 --> 00:55:24.035 And the whole idea of that mission, the way that we practice mission evangelism 00:55:24.845 --> 00:55:28.415 is been informed by very ableist biases. 00:55:28.475 --> 00:55:29.735 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm, good point. 00:55:30.305 --> 00:55:33.095 Ben Connor: A certain kinds of communication, right? 00:55:33.425 --> 00:55:39.075 So, and so I say to disable in my mind is to take away those ableist biases. 00:55:40.635 --> 00:55:43.305 And so that's what I'm trying to my theological project. 00:55:43.305 --> 00:55:43.695 You think about 00:55:43.695 --> 00:55:44.475 Rupert Isaacson: disarming really? 00:55:44.475 --> 00:55:45.585 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:55:45.915 --> 00:55:49.725 Ben Connor: Disabling theological education, that's how the Center for 00:55:49.725 --> 00:55:51.435 Disability and Ministry came to be. 00:55:51.855 --> 00:55:57.145 And then I wrote you know, disabling mission and, you know, I'm always, 00:55:57.145 --> 00:55:58.495 I'm always thinking about that. 00:55:58.605 --> 00:56:01.155 How can we, how can we center. 00:56:03.450 --> 00:56:05.010 Wisdom that hasn't been at the center. 00:56:05.010 --> 00:56:06.900 So how do you center children? 00:56:06.930 --> 00:56:11.100 You, you center children's insights, then you engage theology differently. 00:56:11.105 --> 00:56:14.490 You, you center your relationship with the horse, you know, then you, 00:56:14.490 --> 00:56:15.930 then you see the world differently, 00:56:18.330 --> 00:56:18.870 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:56:19.500 --> 00:56:22.170 Ben Connor: So the main pushback, the main pushback I get would be that 00:56:22.170 --> 00:56:27.910 I'm what would be called a pantheist or a panentheist, which means, which 00:56:27.910 --> 00:56:31.360 I'm, I wouldn't say I'm a pantheist, which means everything is God. 00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:32.470 God is everything. 00:56:32.950 --> 00:56:34.600 That, that wouldn't be where I fit in. 00:56:35.230 --> 00:56:37.630 Panentheism says God is in everything. 00:56:37.630 --> 00:56:39.010 I don't have a problem with that. 00:56:39.130 --> 00:56:42.040 I just don't like the label, you know? 00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:50.190 But traditional theism has been so informed by I think sort of, Greek 00:56:50.190 --> 00:56:54.630 philosophical categories that, that they've, they've been so entwined. 00:56:54.630 --> 00:56:56.700 It's almost like it's the same thing. 00:56:56.700 --> 00:56:57.150 So. 00:56:58.710 --> 00:57:03.000 So I'm happy to push back against various things and do some constructive 00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:04.920 theology and see what happens. 00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:10.050 And, and unless you're willing to make some mistakes, you know, it, you 00:57:10.050 --> 00:57:15.050 gotta, you gotta go ahead and make some statements to, to stimulate discourse. 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:15.830 Rupert Isaacson: True. 00:57:15.860 --> 00:57:15.890 Okay. 00:57:16.610 --> 00:57:24.080 So what are the odds that we will see in the next 20 years? 00:57:25.730 --> 00:57:29.540 Cons, you know, conservative Christian megachurches in Houston, 00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:33.020 going out and planting forests. 00:57:36.350 --> 00:57:37.130 I'm hopeful. 00:57:38.030 --> 00:57:38.870 Talk to me about that. 00:57:38.870 --> 00:57:41.240 Hope take, take me through how that could happen. 00:57:41.930 --> 00:57:41.990 Yeah. 00:57:41.990 --> 00:57:43.460 Because I would love that to happen. 00:57:44.240 --> 00:57:44.900 Ben Connor: Yeah. 00:57:45.140 --> 00:57:45.470 Yeah. 00:57:45.470 --> 00:57:50.230 I, I think as, as, consequences of the way that we've treated 00:57:50.230 --> 00:57:52.600 the environment hit home. 00:57:53.410 --> 00:57:57.550 And so, so a lot of the immigration migration is related 00:57:57.550 --> 00:58:01.150 to climate issues, right? 00:58:01.740 --> 00:58:06.870 A lot of people's homes and, and, and places that they value 00:58:06.870 --> 00:58:08.460 have been impacted by this. 00:58:08.820 --> 00:58:12.000 A lot of the things they like to eat have been impacted by this. 00:58:12.210 --> 00:58:17.500 Once it becomes a personal experience for you, then for many Christians, 00:58:17.500 --> 00:58:20.379 that's when you start to ask new and fresh theological questions. 00:58:20.709 --> 00:58:23.799 And my hope is by the time they're asking these questions, which I can't 00:58:23.799 --> 00:58:28.744 imagine what happened particularly, you know, not to get political, but in this 00:58:28.744 --> 00:58:34.184 administration, you're gonna roll back any sort of environmental restraint. 00:58:35.684 --> 00:58:41.264 You know, as we see the consequences of this, then even these conservative, these 00:58:41.264 --> 00:58:45.374 more conservative congregations will have to start asking new theological questions. 00:58:45.704 --> 00:58:49.094 And my hope is that there's a group of resources there that they can 00:58:49.094 --> 00:58:57.914 call upon as this, this theological movement, eco theology and biolog and 00:58:57.914 --> 00:59:02.954 people who are creating ugia places as they're growing these resources will 00:59:02.954 --> 00:59:06.704 become, you know, someone from within their tradition is going to write 00:59:06.704 --> 00:59:08.084 something that they're interested in. 00:59:11.894 --> 00:59:12.284 Rupert Isaacson: I love it. 00:59:14.714 --> 00:59:20.324 I guess what I'm seeing practically is yeah, let's say the children of the people 00:59:20.324 --> 00:59:26.444 growing up within that type of church, historically have, I have had two choices. 00:59:26.444 --> 00:59:27.524 They, they could either 00:59:29.624 --> 00:59:30.284 reject. 00:59:31.454 --> 00:59:36.134 And say it is all a load of wan because it kind of is. 00:59:36.974 --> 00:59:39.794 And then go off into their lives outside the church or 00:59:39.794 --> 00:59:41.354 certainly outside that church. 00:59:41.684 --> 00:59:41.894 Ben Connor: Yep. 00:59:42.254 --> 00:59:47.589 Rupert Isaacson: But still hopefully take some you know, nice things with 00:59:47.589 --> 00:59:49.509 them if they could salvage some. 00:59:50.439 --> 00:59:52.389 But it's usually been stale. 00:59:52.389 --> 00:59:57.189 Go, it's usually been drink the Kool-Aid or escape. 00:59:58.359 --> 01:00:00.369 Ben Connor: When they escape, they go a couple ways. 01:00:00.369 --> 01:00:02.679 There's something called ex evangelicals. 01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:04.179 I don't know if you've ever died again. 01:00:04.179 --> 01:00:04.689 Rupert Isaacson: Christians. 01:00:04.689 --> 01:00:04.899 Yeah. 01:00:04.899 --> 01:00:04.959 Yeah. 01:00:06.129 --> 01:00:06.669 Ben Connor: So, yeah. 01:00:06.669 --> 01:00:09.849 So instead of evangelicals or ex evangelicals, they're not giving up 01:00:09.849 --> 01:00:13.479 the faith, they're just giving up that particular way of understanding it. 01:00:13.484 --> 01:00:13.814 Mm-hmm. 01:00:13.899 --> 01:00:18.369 And these ex evangelicals are much more connected to issues 01:00:18.369 --> 01:00:21.439 around sexuality around dominance. 01:00:21.439 --> 01:00:22.429 But again, where are these people? 01:00:22.429 --> 01:00:23.149 Rupert Isaacson: I don't hear about them. 01:00:23.149 --> 01:00:23.869 I don't meet them. 01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:26.629 These evangelicals, where are they? 01:00:27.089 --> 01:00:27.809 Ben Connor: They're out there. 01:00:28.229 --> 01:00:30.209 They're very much into podcasting. 01:00:30.209 --> 01:00:34.829 So you could, you could easily type in ex evangelical and you'll find a lot of 'em. 01:00:34.829 --> 01:00:37.679 That's sort of the white, upper middle class way to deal with 01:00:37.679 --> 01:00:39.899 your issues in the United States. 01:00:39.899 --> 01:00:41.099 Just start a podcast. 01:00:41.099 --> 01:00:41.484 Rupert Isaacson: Look at me. 01:00:41.484 --> 01:00:41.764 Yeah. 01:00:42.119 --> 01:00:42.389 Yeah. 01:00:43.289 --> 01:00:44.459 Ben Connor: Well, yeah, me too. 01:00:44.459 --> 01:00:47.669 We have a podcast through the center called Disabling the Church. 01:00:47.909 --> 01:00:48.359 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:00:48.569 --> 01:00:49.229 Disabling the church. 01:00:49.444 --> 01:00:49.684 Yeah. 01:00:49.689 --> 01:00:49.919 Okay. 01:00:49.919 --> 01:00:51.149 I need to start listening to it. 01:00:51.839 --> 01:00:52.139 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:00:53.794 --> 01:00:55.804 So that that's one direction they go. 01:00:55.804 --> 01:00:58.264 The other direction is, yeah, maybe they give up on calling 01:00:58.264 --> 01:01:00.844 themselves Christians, but a pew. 01:01:01.234 --> 01:01:06.454 If you, if you look at these pew research sort of interviews about the 01:01:06.454 --> 01:01:11.404 state of religion in the United States, you find that even people who say that 01:01:11.404 --> 01:01:16.204 they are the nuns, meaning when you check something about your religious 01:01:16.264 --> 01:01:18.934 affiliation, you check the category, none. 01:01:19.264 --> 01:01:20.554 You keep going down the list. 01:01:20.554 --> 01:01:24.634 You find out that they aren't giving up on God and one of the places they feel 01:01:24.634 --> 01:01:27.904 most connected to God is in nature. 01:01:28.204 --> 01:01:28.474 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:01:28.714 --> 01:01:31.324 Ben Connor: And so I, that, that's the path that I'm taking 01:01:31.624 --> 01:01:33.514 to get this conversation going. 01:01:33.814 --> 01:01:39.064 I don't think I'm gonna change the mind of the diet in the wool American 01:01:39.064 --> 01:01:42.904 evangelical of the more conservative ilk. 01:01:43.714 --> 01:01:48.304 I think I can work with evangelicals very well and I can work with people 01:01:48.304 --> 01:01:52.774 who have left the church but still find God when they walk in Saugatuck 01:01:52.774 --> 01:01:55.504 dunes, you know, these sorts of things. 01:01:55.564 --> 01:01:58.594 And I can give them some language and I, 'cause they look, this, this 01:01:58.594 --> 01:02:01.924 scripture is actually pointing to this kind of thing that you're talking about. 01:02:02.074 --> 01:02:06.274 The Christian faith is actually it, it should have the capacity to 01:02:06.274 --> 01:02:07.804 speak into this in meaningful ways. 01:02:07.924 --> 01:02:09.694 Rupert Isaacson: Well that was going to be my next question actually 01:02:09.694 --> 01:02:13.054 was you know, I dunno, scripture, like, you know, scripture I know 01:02:13.054 --> 01:02:14.464 little fragments here and there. 01:02:14.914 --> 01:02:22.024 Can you give me some choice quotes from Old and New Testament about why 01:02:22.024 --> 01:02:23.434 we shouldn't be buggering it all up? 01:02:25.834 --> 01:02:26.044 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:02:26.044 --> 01:02:30.244 I mean, one was that from job 12 seven, ask the Beasts and they will teach you 01:02:30.574 --> 01:02:35.224 ask the birds of the air and they, they'll show you this, this whole idea that, 01:02:35.404 --> 01:02:39.314 that, that there's wisdom in creation and we should connect with the wisdom. 01:02:39.554 --> 01:02:43.634 You go to some of the Psalms and so the problem, okay, so we're, we're 01:02:43.634 --> 01:02:49.004 oriented in scripture by the creation accounts in, in Genesis, the beginning 01:02:49.004 --> 01:02:53.114 of Genesis, which seems to make the point that everything's made. 01:02:53.324 --> 01:02:54.494 Then you make humans. 01:02:54.494 --> 01:03:00.014 Now it's very good and your job is to have dominion over it, right? 01:03:00.224 --> 01:03:04.154 But then you read in a creation in the Psalms where it talks about the 01:03:04.154 --> 01:03:09.014 creation and it says the hills are made for the Cooney and the deep 01:03:09.014 --> 01:03:11.174 is made for the beasts of the sea. 01:03:11.174 --> 01:03:14.294 Almost like humans aren't even in mind for this. 01:03:14.594 --> 01:03:19.154 You know, the idea that animals have a connection with God without us. 01:03:20.544 --> 01:03:23.669 If you want to know anything about that, you better hope 01:03:23.669 --> 01:03:24.929 they're around to tell you. 01:03:25.349 --> 01:03:28.619 So you wanna preserve their environment and you wanna learn 01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:32.009 how to, you wanna learn about 'em, you wanna draw on the sciences. 01:03:32.009 --> 01:03:35.699 So as I think about horses, 'cause you had my wife Melissa, 01:03:35.699 --> 01:03:37.349 I think on a different podcast 01:03:37.349 --> 01:03:37.409 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:03:37.439 --> 01:03:39.419 The, the Equine Assisted World podcast. 01:03:39.419 --> 01:03:39.569 Yeah. 01:03:39.864 --> 01:03:42.839 Ben Connor: And so she runs renew Therapeutic Riding Center. 01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:46.709 And one of the things we're working on is how do Christians think 01:03:46.709 --> 01:03:49.589 about horses as having a vocation? 01:03:50.429 --> 01:03:50.549 A call. 01:03:51.569 --> 01:03:51.959 Yeah. 01:03:51.959 --> 01:03:52.349 Yeah. 01:03:52.654 --> 01:03:52.944 Okay. 01:03:52.944 --> 01:03:53.819 So vocation. 01:03:53.819 --> 01:03:56.369 So vocation is right to Ari's a podcast in 01:03:56.369 --> 01:03:56.789 Rupert Isaacson: itself. 01:03:56.849 --> 01:03:57.149 Yeah. 01:03:57.554 --> 01:03:57.854 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:03:57.854 --> 01:04:01.754 So in Christianity, the view is you've been called to follow. 01:04:02.114 --> 01:04:05.054 And when we think of vocation, we think of the big noun. 01:04:05.054 --> 01:04:07.094 What's the thing I'm gonna do when I grow up? 01:04:07.334 --> 01:04:09.614 So we're anxious all the way through high school. 01:04:09.734 --> 01:04:10.904 What are we gonna be? 01:04:11.144 --> 01:04:14.204 And then we don't know who we are after retirement 'cause we 01:04:14.204 --> 01:04:17.324 don't know anymore who we are now 'cause we don't have the job. 01:04:17.774 --> 01:04:22.034 But Kathleen Cahalan says, instead of talking about vocation as a 01:04:22.034 --> 01:04:25.784 noun, we should talk about it in terms of prepositions, I'm called 01:04:25.784 --> 01:04:30.314 alongside, I'm called through, I'm called into, I'm called out of. 01:04:30.314 --> 01:04:30.404 Mm-hmm. 01:04:30.644 --> 01:04:32.384 We have many different callings. 01:04:32.384 --> 01:04:34.934 So I'm called as a professor. 01:04:35.174 --> 01:04:37.854 I'm called as a as a grant writer. 01:04:38.034 --> 01:04:39.204 I'm called as a husband. 01:04:39.204 --> 01:04:40.434 I'm called as a father. 01:04:40.764 --> 01:04:43.224 I'm also called into relationship with my dogs. 01:04:43.224 --> 01:04:47.004 I'm called into relationship with silk of the horse and we start thinking. 01:04:48.264 --> 01:04:50.454 Wouldn't people think differently of animals? 01:04:50.454 --> 01:04:55.194 If instead of saying this is a tool that you use for services that 01:04:55.194 --> 01:04:58.464 you thought of as animal as having a vocation, a calling from God. 01:04:59.094 --> 01:05:01.974 Well, vocation is also about being able to use your voice. 01:05:02.274 --> 01:05:03.594 Voice and vocation. 01:05:03.714 --> 01:05:06.144 I've amplified my voice in different settings. 01:05:06.474 --> 01:05:08.364 How does a course have a voice? 01:05:08.664 --> 01:05:10.404 How does a horse have agency? 01:05:10.794 --> 01:05:14.124 In order to understand this, we need to learn how to communicate with a horse. 01:05:14.184 --> 01:05:18.294 So we have to draw on Stephen Peters and Martin Black and all the people 01:05:18.294 --> 01:05:20.854 who've done this horse head, human head. 01:05:20.854 --> 01:05:22.949 I forget who wrote that, Jane something. 01:05:23.434 --> 01:05:23.614 Horse, 01:05:23.614 --> 01:05:24.454 Rupert Isaacson: brain, human brain. 01:05:24.459 --> 01:05:24.964 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:05:24.964 --> 01:05:25.114 Horse, 01:05:25.114 --> 01:05:25.384 Ben Connor: brain. 01:05:25.384 --> 01:05:25.984 Human brain. 01:05:26.104 --> 01:05:26.434 Yeah. 01:05:27.394 --> 01:05:30.634 But so now you're learning, you're, you're looking at the horse differently. 01:05:30.634 --> 01:05:33.064 You're saying, this horse needs to have a voice. 01:05:33.304 --> 01:05:36.004 I need to learn how to listen to the voice of the horse. 01:05:36.094 --> 01:05:39.934 If the horse isn't flourishing, the horse isn't in a vocation, so we 01:05:39.934 --> 01:05:44.104 can't do anything that's of benefit to a student that's not in line with 01:05:44.104 --> 01:05:45.844 the vocation or calling of the horse. 01:05:45.874 --> 01:05:47.404 So there's mutual flourishing. 01:05:47.884 --> 01:05:49.624 How do we organize our center? 01:05:49.864 --> 01:05:51.364 How do we feed horses? 01:05:51.604 --> 01:05:52.834 How do we turn them out? 01:05:52.954 --> 01:05:54.574 How do we turn pastures? 01:05:54.784 --> 01:05:58.444 How do we allow them the time to get used to an environment before they go in it? 01:05:58.834 --> 01:06:03.214 How do we, you know, do we know that the horse, if this chair's in different place, 01:06:03.214 --> 01:06:04.774 it's not a chair, it might be a lion. 01:06:04.774 --> 01:06:08.254 Now, I, you know, all those weird things about horses that Melissa could tell you 01:06:08.254 --> 01:06:11.044 all about, but horses have a vocation. 01:06:11.684 --> 01:06:12.464 They have a voice. 01:06:12.464 --> 01:06:15.704 We just have to learn how to hear their voice. 01:06:15.824 --> 01:06:17.684 'cause it's usually a nonverbal voice. 01:06:17.954 --> 01:06:19.004 It's ear postural. 01:06:19.004 --> 01:06:20.804 It's, it's, it's the tension of the muzzle. 01:06:20.804 --> 01:06:23.114 It's the what the hind end is doing. 01:06:23.114 --> 01:06:25.034 It's, it's what the tail's doing. 01:06:25.034 --> 01:06:28.514 It's all, it's what the, how, how the eyes are, or the eyes soft. 01:06:28.514 --> 01:06:30.434 Or the eyes dead, you know? 01:06:30.434 --> 01:06:33.644 Yes, the horse is doing the thing, but the horse is getting no enjoyment. 01:06:34.544 --> 01:06:34.724 Yeah. 01:06:34.724 --> 01:06:37.574 All, all these sorts of things are for the vocation of the horse. 01:06:37.574 --> 01:06:41.744 Now, this is a, it's a, it's a creature that we invite to share a vocation 01:06:41.744 --> 01:06:45.134 with us, but the horse can say no. 01:06:45.979 --> 01:06:48.529 And we have to listen to the horse to know when the horse is saying 01:06:48.529 --> 01:06:50.629 no, I have a different vocation. 01:06:50.899 --> 01:06:56.239 So swing because of trauma related to being a polo horse, is never gonna 01:06:56.239 --> 01:07:01.879 be a good therapeutic riding horse because of all the, you know, unless 01:07:01.879 --> 01:07:06.469 you desensitize swing and take all the joy out of his life and make him 01:07:06.469 --> 01:07:10.579 an ottoman, that au ottoman that just walks around the arena, loping around 01:07:10.579 --> 01:07:15.349 carrying somebody that's not swing's, vocation, but swing is very good at 01:07:15.349 --> 01:07:17.419 being a pasture friend to another horse. 01:07:19.759 --> 01:07:23.569 Rupert Isaacson: If we then go from horses to mountains, rivers, 01:07:26.419 --> 01:07:27.289 ecosystems. 01:07:27.949 --> 01:07:28.339 Ben Connor: Alright. 01:07:30.919 --> 01:07:33.919 Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me about mountains, rivers, and ecosystems. 01:07:33.919 --> 01:07:34.909 Having vocations. 01:07:36.379 --> 01:07:39.769 Ben Connor: So mountains have been around a lot longer than we have. 01:07:40.139 --> 01:07:43.079 I don't think we have the patience to listen to a mountain or the 01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:44.759 lifespan to listen to a mountain. 01:07:45.659 --> 01:07:49.799 Our, our, our our listening is, is, is is this big mountains 01:07:49.799 --> 01:07:53.129 listening is generations and generations and generations. 01:07:53.759 --> 01:07:59.309 But I, I do believe that, that mountains have vocations other than being blown 01:07:59.309 --> 01:08:05.189 up with dynamite to hold images of presidents or images of civil War 01:08:05.189 --> 01:08:08.279 heroes or, or anything like that, 01:08:08.554 --> 01:08:09.569 Rupert Isaacson: or, or coal mine. 01:08:09.629 --> 01:08:10.049 Yeah. 01:08:10.564 --> 01:08:14.134 Ben Connor: And I think the people who were closer to the vocation of 01:08:14.134 --> 01:08:19.324 these mountains were the indigenous people whose livelihood were tied 01:08:19.324 --> 01:08:23.644 to the mountains, whose mythologies were connected to the mountains. 01:08:24.314 --> 01:08:28.664 I think, I think bodies of water have a lot to say to us, but were, were 01:08:28.664 --> 01:08:30.254 putting chemicals in their throats. 01:08:30.254 --> 01:08:34.974 We're putting runoff from fertilizers in their throats. 01:08:34.974 --> 01:08:38.454 We're we're putting plastic in their throats. 01:08:38.454 --> 01:08:41.634 We're taking all the life of the ecosystems outta their throats and 01:08:41.634 --> 01:08:46.164 we're starting to hear their voice again when we participate in reef, 01:08:46.524 --> 01:08:48.620 you know, helping reefs to grow back. 01:08:49.129 --> 01:08:53.719 And when we have responsible ways of fishing, instead of just huge nets 01:08:53.719 --> 01:08:57.919 that pull up everything or sharks that are just harvested for their fins 01:08:57.919 --> 01:08:59.299 or whales that are just harvested. 01:08:59.419 --> 01:09:01.669 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, when we just stop behaving abusively, basically. 01:09:02.090 --> 01:09:03.769 Ben Connor: Yeah, so I, so here's the thing. 01:09:03.769 --> 01:09:05.149 This goes to vocation. 01:09:05.599 --> 01:09:08.059 The vocation of a horse is to be a horse. 01:09:08.569 --> 01:09:09.109 That's it. 01:09:09.710 --> 01:09:10.939 And a horse doesn't mess up. 01:09:10.939 --> 01:09:11.779 Its vocation. 01:09:12.019 --> 01:09:14.840 But humans can mess up the horse's vocation. 01:09:15.200 --> 01:09:17.510 And the vocation of a mountain is to be a mountain. 01:09:17.870 --> 01:09:21.955 And mountains don't mess up the vocation, but humans can get 01:09:21.955 --> 01:09:23.359 in the way of their vocation. 01:09:23.495 --> 01:09:25.099 Rupert Isaacson: What's a human's vocation then? 01:09:25.939 --> 01:09:26.569 Ben Connor: This is the key. 01:09:26.569 --> 01:09:27.260 Can we mess that up? 01:09:27.889 --> 01:09:28.460 Yes. 01:09:28.460 --> 01:09:33.200 A human's vocation is to be a human, but we suck at it. 01:09:34.099 --> 01:09:37.220 We wanna dominate and control other humans. 01:09:37.279 --> 01:09:38.090 What is being a human 01:09:38.090 --> 01:09:38.420 Rupert Isaacson: dominant? 01:09:38.510 --> 01:09:39.410 What is being a human? 01:09:40.130 --> 01:09:42.920 Ben Connor: So now you're into something from a Christian standpoint that's 01:09:42.920 --> 01:09:45.319 called theological anthropology, right? 01:09:45.319 --> 01:09:47.990 So anthropology is just the study of humans and human 01:09:47.990 --> 01:09:49.399 cultures and humans in the world. 01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:52.040 Theological anthropology adds another layer. 01:09:52.040 --> 01:09:54.019 What does it mean to be a human before God? 01:09:55.220 --> 01:09:57.615 And so, a theological anthropology before 01:09:57.615 --> 01:09:57.815 Rupert Isaacson: Christ. 01:09:58.115 --> 01:09:58.975 Ben Connor: Before Christ. 01:09:59.130 --> 01:09:59.370 Yeah. 01:10:00.040 --> 01:10:04.510 And so, so Christ, Jesus Christ from a Christian standpoint, you would say, then 01:10:04.900 --> 01:10:12.340 lived out the human vocation properly and what it result in his death, because 01:10:12.340 --> 01:10:17.260 it's in a world that's not oriented towards living in a human vocation. 01:10:17.530 --> 01:10:18.130 It's in, well, I meant 01:10:19.085 --> 01:10:21.700 Rupert Isaacson: in the Kalahari at the same time in which you 01:10:21.700 --> 01:10:24.100 were behaving in a Christlike way and getting along just fine. 01:10:24.820 --> 01:10:25.060 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:10:25.750 --> 01:10:26.020 Yeah. 01:10:26.380 --> 01:10:28.245 Rupert Isaacson: So, so, okay, so, 01:10:28.630 --> 01:10:33.280 Ben Connor: so, so then a, a human vocation then is to be a, a human, which 01:10:33.280 --> 01:10:38.380 means there's, there's a, a, a calling to bear witness to the goodness of God. 01:10:38.380 --> 01:10:43.930 That's in everything, to, to treat all of creation as kin, to treat all 01:10:43.930 --> 01:10:45.730 people in ways that with dignity. 01:10:46.400 --> 01:10:51.080 And so the human creation is to live into this vision. 01:10:51.889 --> 01:10:57.740 Of the kingdom of God that's already breaking into the present in little ways. 01:10:58.339 --> 01:11:02.539 And, and these little ways are, are for example, 01:11:04.820 --> 01:11:06.799 I talked about Julian, the apostate. 01:11:07.650 --> 01:11:11.879 It's never good if your, your, your name has the apostate after it typically. 01:11:11.879 --> 01:11:15.960 But so Julian, the apostate, I understand where he is coming from, considering 01:11:15.960 --> 01:11:17.670 his family was killed by Constantine. 01:11:17.670 --> 01:11:23.415 That's that I understand that he wanted to bring the, the Greek 01:11:23.625 --> 01:11:24.945 culture back to the center. 01:11:24.945 --> 01:11:25.005 Yeah. 01:11:25.005 --> 01:11:25.815 Clintonism, yeah. 01:11:25.905 --> 01:11:26.505 Animating. 01:11:26.595 --> 01:11:27.285 Right, right. 01:11:27.775 --> 01:11:32.374 And so at, at one point though, when plagues broke out what 01:11:32.374 --> 01:11:33.485 do you do in that culture? 01:11:33.485 --> 01:11:35.134 If someone's sick, you get 'em out. 01:11:35.195 --> 01:11:35.525 Right? 01:11:35.525 --> 01:11:36.664 You, you cast them out. 01:11:37.624 --> 01:11:42.074 And so, what happened then was the Christians went 01:11:42.074 --> 01:11:43.844 out where these folks were. 01:11:44.924 --> 01:11:46.544 And they prayed for them. 01:11:46.544 --> 01:11:47.594 They anointed them with oil. 01:11:47.594 --> 01:11:51.944 They gave them food and most importantly, they gave them human presence and care. 01:11:52.994 --> 01:11:53.864 And this what? 01:11:53.894 --> 01:11:54.704 What happened then? 01:11:55.184 --> 01:11:57.284 Well, some immunity was built up. 01:11:57.644 --> 01:12:02.204 Some people came to health and then as a result of that, then 01:12:02.264 --> 01:12:03.734 they came to the Christian faith. 01:12:03.734 --> 01:12:09.134 'cause they said it's the practice of the faith that drew me to it, not a doctrine. 01:12:09.164 --> 01:12:10.034 This care did. 01:12:10.514 --> 01:12:14.864 So Julian, the apostate then calls all this priest to him and he says, look. 01:12:15.959 --> 01:12:22.290 These impious Galileans, which is what he called Christians impious, Galileans 01:12:22.290 --> 01:12:26.729 impious, because they didn't worship the state-sponsored Gods Galileans as a 01:12:26.729 --> 01:12:31.109 diminutive way of talking about Christians following this dead guy from Galilee. 01:12:31.529 --> 01:12:36.479 These impious Galileans care not only for their own sick, but for ours as well. 01:12:36.989 --> 01:12:40.739 That is, that's a way of being in the world that's bearing witness to 01:12:40.739 --> 01:12:42.059 the way that the world should be. 01:12:42.299 --> 01:12:45.149 That's hospitality, that's care, that's friendship. 01:12:45.449 --> 01:12:49.379 Christian practices that give a vision of the kingdom of God. 01:12:49.379 --> 01:12:53.729 And we try to do that at renew with our relationship with the horses as well. 01:12:54.149 --> 01:12:58.799 It's sort of a vision of the peaceable kingdom where humans and 01:12:58.799 --> 01:13:00.509 animals work together in harmony. 01:13:03.209 --> 01:13:09.239 Rupert Isaacson: If you were to put this Christian view, and I also, I 01:13:09.239 --> 01:13:13.439 want to go back to, is anything in the New Testament talking about. 01:13:14.369 --> 01:13:17.009 The, the right relationship of human to nature. 01:13:17.699 --> 01:13:19.049 But let's just put that to the side. 01:13:19.049 --> 01:13:24.369 Now, if you were, if you were to go to your average suburban megachurch 01:13:24.369 --> 01:13:36.309 in the south and posit your view on eco theology bio biolog, yeah, 01:13:37.539 --> 01:13:38.139 Ben Connor: yeah, yeah. 01:13:39.399 --> 01:13:41.199 Rupert Isaacson: What, what would they say to you? 01:13:43.539 --> 01:13:45.129 Ben Connor: So, I'm not a hundred percent sure. 01:13:45.129 --> 01:13:50.949 My suspicion is if I, so if I were going in that context, I 01:13:50.949 --> 01:13:55.989 would have a whole bunch of bible verses with what I'm saying, right? 01:13:55.989 --> 01:14:00.789 Because they would be really anxious about my theological conversation. 01:14:00.789 --> 01:14:03.669 Partners, they would say, 01:14:03.669 --> 01:14:05.289 Rupert Isaacson: why do you think, why, but why do you think they wouldn't 01:14:05.289 --> 01:14:06.519 be like, actually, you know what? 01:14:07.314 --> 01:14:08.664 Yeah, Ben, that makes a lot of sense. 01:14:08.664 --> 01:14:08.994 Yeah, sure. 01:14:08.994 --> 01:14:09.234 Sey. 01:14:09.234 --> 01:14:09.654 Let's do it. 01:14:09.654 --> 01:14:10.224 Let's go plant. 01:14:11.124 --> 01:14:13.974 We we're gonna raise a million dollars and plant a forest in our backyard right now. 01:14:14.214 --> 01:14:21.264 Like why would there be a difficulty taking on your point of view when 01:14:21.264 --> 01:14:27.354 your point of view is not only seemingly vocational and very 01:14:27.354 --> 01:14:33.824 Christian, but also common sense, so it be coming from their pushback. 01:14:34.679 --> 01:14:36.419 Ben Connor: Well, I think it's a habitus, right? 01:14:36.419 --> 01:14:38.549 A habitus that they've been formed into. 01:14:38.624 --> 01:14:38.844 Mm. 01:14:39.054 --> 01:14:43.529 Which is the, which is a, is sort of embodied way of interpreting and seeing 01:14:43.529 --> 01:14:48.719 in the world that's been informed by a mis oriented dominion that drive to 01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:50.699 differentiate themselves from creatures. 01:14:51.029 --> 01:14:55.439 And for many of 'em understanding this world is a dramatic backdrop. 01:14:55.499 --> 01:15:00.779 And then along with that, it's, it's a almost a kind of Bible worship. 01:15:01.109 --> 01:15:03.989 You know, I would say that Jesus isn't the Lord. 01:15:04.024 --> 01:15:04.244 Rupert Isaacson: The, 01:15:04.304 --> 01:15:04.884 Ben Connor: that's interesting. 01:15:04.884 --> 01:15:06.989 Their interpretation of the Bible is the Lord. 01:15:08.099 --> 01:15:10.469 And so I'm calling into question 01:15:10.559 --> 01:15:10.679 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 01:15:10.979 --> 01:15:16.829 Ben Connor: Long, entrenched biblical interpretations of scriptures that 01:15:16.829 --> 01:15:21.239 aren't just a matter of opinion, but are a matter of identity. 01:15:22.169 --> 01:15:22.439 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:15:22.859 --> 01:15:23.129 Yeah. 01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:23.819 That's well took. 01:15:23.819 --> 01:15:23.999 And so 01:15:23.999 --> 01:15:26.429 Ben Connor: it's tough to have this discourse. 01:15:26.669 --> 01:15:29.489 It in order to have, in order to have genuine discourse, that 01:15:29.489 --> 01:15:32.759 has to be the openness to the possibility that I'm wrong. 01:15:33.884 --> 01:15:35.054 Rupert Isaacson: Here's another question. 01:15:35.504 --> 01:15:42.424 Okay, so let's go to a different abusive colonist thing outside of America. 01:15:42.424 --> 01:15:45.124 Let's go to my own family and the British Empire and all of that. 01:15:45.964 --> 01:15:49.985 What's interesting about the British Empire is that they definitely 01:15:49.985 --> 01:15:51.454 did all sorts of bad stuff. 01:15:52.414 --> 01:15:58.565 And at the same time there was a conservation movement that was similar 01:15:58.565 --> 01:16:05.264 to like the Roosevelt Conservation Movement, which people would say 01:16:05.264 --> 01:16:06.855 cynically came on the back of. 01:16:07.454 --> 01:16:09.734 You know, native American genocides and so on. 01:16:09.974 --> 01:16:11.444 Yes, yes it did. 01:16:11.714 --> 01:16:14.864 And the, and the formation of national parks in Africa and that 01:16:14.864 --> 01:16:19.544 sort of thing were also predicated upon, you know, mass displacement 01:16:19.544 --> 01:16:21.284 and removals of peoples and so on. 01:16:21.524 --> 01:16:22.334 Not in every case. 01:16:22.334 --> 01:16:24.884 You've got the Maasai still in the Maasai Mara and that sort of thing. 01:16:24.884 --> 01:16:29.384 But for the, for the most part, and this idea of primordial nature existing without 01:16:29.384 --> 01:16:31.964 humanity in a pristine form is bullshit. 01:16:31.994 --> 01:16:33.074 Humans were always there. 01:16:33.864 --> 01:16:36.504 But just living in right relationship, not wrong relationship. 01:16:36.744 --> 01:16:41.664 However, for example, let's say if you were in the British Forest 01:16:41.664 --> 01:16:52.074 Service in British India in 1933, and you were administering a tract 01:16:52.074 --> 01:16:57.744 of forest, you would give 1% of. 01:16:58.719 --> 01:17:04.839 That forest land over to people who wanted to log it or, and the remaining 01:17:04.839 --> 01:17:13.149 99% would be regarded as sacrosanct to be, you know, blah, blah, blah. 01:17:13.449 --> 01:17:17.319 And if I'm here in Germany and I was just actually riding through the woods today 01:17:17.319 --> 01:17:23.450 with a, a very lovely Christian American called Connie Uba, who works within 01:17:23.450 --> 01:17:25.859 therapeutic riding and out of Tennessee. 01:17:25.859 --> 01:17:29.369 And we were just admiring the forest and we were talking about 01:17:29.369 --> 01:17:31.559 how this forest is, is maintained. 01:17:31.559 --> 01:17:32.429 It is a working forest. 01:17:32.429 --> 01:17:35.939 It's logged, but it's not clear cut. 01:17:36.509 --> 01:17:40.029 So it's logged in a very thoughtful way. 01:17:40.389 --> 01:17:42.159 The timber is absolutely sold. 01:17:42.829 --> 01:17:45.529 You can see the trees that have been marked up, but they, they never let the 01:17:45.529 --> 01:17:53.660 canopy disperse and they never let the root system get, troubled, and there's 01:17:53.660 --> 01:17:55.639 all kinds of biodiversity in that forest. 01:17:55.639 --> 01:17:58.849 So there's, you know, all kinds of wildlife. 01:17:59.150 --> 01:18:02.809 We, we were seeing it, you know, as we were riding through, there's all 01:18:02.809 --> 01:18:05.299 kinds of interesting plant life and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:18:05.629 --> 01:18:06.469 And this since. 01:18:06.500 --> 01:18:11.209 Now, the reason I'm saying all of these things is that the area that 01:18:11.209 --> 01:18:15.779 I'm in, in Germany's very Christian those people that were administering 01:18:15.779 --> 01:18:19.139 the British Empire would've seen themselves as the three Cs, commerce, 01:18:19.319 --> 01:18:21.389 civilization, and Christianity altogether. 01:18:21.389 --> 01:18:21.509 Right. 01:18:21.689 --> 01:18:23.639 But it seems to be very, you know, a very American thing. 01:18:23.639 --> 01:18:27.809 This idea that again, is where we started the podcast, that the 01:18:27.809 --> 01:18:30.924 Christian viewpoint means destruction. 01:18:32.114 --> 01:18:32.429 Ben Connor: Destruction, yeah. 01:18:33.029 --> 01:18:34.469 So it's related to unli. 01:18:34.474 --> 01:18:37.589 It's, it's related to this idea that we have unlimited resources. 01:18:37.979 --> 01:18:38.909 You know, we just keep, but the 01:18:38.909 --> 01:18:40.589 Rupert Isaacson: people who went to Africa felt they did. 01:18:40.919 --> 01:18:44.729 And the people in the 17th century in Yeah, Germany thought they did 01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:45.389 Ben Connor: well. 01:18:45.389 --> 01:18:47.369 I mean, it's, it's still happening everywhere. 01:18:47.369 --> 01:18:48.749 It's related to meat. 01:18:49.664 --> 01:18:51.189 Fair to some, isn't it? 01:18:51.189 --> 01:18:51.389 Fair enough. 01:18:51.469 --> 01:18:51.629 I mean, 01:18:51.699 --> 01:18:52.109 Rupert Isaacson: fair enough. 01:18:52.124 --> 01:18:52.394 Alright, 01:18:52.394 --> 01:18:53.624 Ben Connor: let's look at Brazil. 01:18:53.624 --> 01:18:53.954 What is it? 01:18:53.954 --> 01:18:55.094 Brazilian rainforest. 01:18:55.094 --> 01:18:55.784 What's happening? 01:18:55.964 --> 01:18:57.434 They're becoming a place for cattle. 01:18:57.579 --> 01:18:58.244 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, right? 01:18:58.454 --> 01:18:58.874 Ben Connor: Why? 01:18:58.874 --> 01:19:02.054 Because they want the money that comes from selling the meat for cattle. 01:19:02.234 --> 01:19:02.324 Right? 01:19:02.324 --> 01:19:06.044 So then what kind of, what kind of things do you have to now grow if 01:19:06.044 --> 01:19:07.424 you're gonna support these cattle? 01:19:07.634 --> 01:19:10.574 You have to grow The corn that you turn into silage, that you fill the cattle 01:19:10.904 --> 01:19:13.244 that isn't, none of that is supporting. 01:19:13.574 --> 01:19:14.564 Human growth. 01:19:14.564 --> 01:19:17.294 None of it's, that's happened in the United States as well. 01:19:17.544 --> 01:19:20.814 I was shocked when I moved to the Midwest how humid it was. 01:19:21.174 --> 01:19:23.664 I thought I lived in the most, I thought I lived in the armpit of 01:19:23.664 --> 01:19:28.704 America when I lived in the historical triangle of Jamestown, Yorktown. 01:19:28.974 --> 01:19:32.244 And in Williamsburg I lived in a swamp, you know? 01:19:32.244 --> 01:19:33.204 No, how you get pretty 01:19:33.204 --> 01:19:33.564 Rupert Isaacson: sweaty there. 01:19:33.834 --> 01:19:33.894 Yeah. 01:19:33.894 --> 01:19:34.104 It can 01:19:34.104 --> 01:19:35.184 Ben Connor: get very sweaty there. 01:19:35.364 --> 01:19:36.624 And then I thought, oh, that's it. 01:19:36.624 --> 01:19:40.074 And then I come out to the Midwest and I'm like, gosh, it's just as humid. 01:19:40.074 --> 01:19:40.914 Where's it coming from? 01:19:41.064 --> 01:19:42.174 The corn fields. 01:19:42.624 --> 01:19:44.484 These ridiculous corn fields you get. 01:19:44.634 --> 01:19:47.574 I drove my daughter to school on the far end of Iowa. 01:19:47.574 --> 01:19:47.904 Why do the 01:19:47.904 --> 01:19:51.174 Rupert Isaacson: cornfield make it humid to other grasslands? 01:19:51.294 --> 01:19:52.284 'cause corns are grass. 01:19:53.064 --> 01:19:53.694 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:19:53.694 --> 01:19:54.984 It's, it's just from the. 01:19:56.229 --> 01:19:59.969 The way that it produces the, the corn somehow it's just 01:19:59.969 --> 01:20:01.259 letting out all kind of humidity. 01:20:01.259 --> 01:20:02.849 I don't, I don't know all the details of it. 01:20:03.089 --> 01:20:07.019 I don't know if it has to do with the seeding and the chemicals and all that. 01:20:07.319 --> 01:20:11.399 I just know as I drive across Iowa, I see cornfield, cornfield, 01:20:11.399 --> 01:20:14.129 cornfield, cornfield, and none of it's for human consumption. 01:20:14.429 --> 01:20:16.469 It's all for the next state. 01:20:16.469 --> 01:20:18.719 You drive through and see cattle, cattle, cattle, cattle, 01:20:18.719 --> 01:20:20.284 cattle, and, and feed lots. 01:20:20.354 --> 01:20:20.644 Yeah. 01:20:20.729 --> 01:20:22.709 And what's that doing to the environment? 01:20:23.299 --> 01:20:24.529 What's that doing to the environment? 01:20:24.529 --> 01:20:29.479 So I think some of it has to do with just straight up Christianity hasn't 01:20:29.479 --> 01:20:34.699 provided a strong critique to the way that we've treated the environment 01:20:34.969 --> 01:20:37.489 based on our dietary commitments. 01:20:38.569 --> 01:20:40.069 And, and what's that? 01:20:40.189 --> 01:20:45.289 Christianity hasn't had a critique to that in the mainstream because we're all 01:20:45.289 --> 01:20:51.049 just a bunch of meat eaters who want to be able to buy our hamburger for 3 99 a 01:20:51.049 --> 01:20:53.779 pound at a big box store for convenience. 01:20:53.869 --> 01:20:55.549 So this is what I'm talking about. 01:20:55.639 --> 01:20:58.909 It's gonna cost this kind of movement's gonna cost. 01:20:59.089 --> 01:21:02.419 And, and in, in the US we're not ready to face that cost yet. 01:21:02.899 --> 01:21:08.269 And I think that it's in the generations that come behind the, so the kids that 01:21:08.269 --> 01:21:10.249 grew up, the kids that are growing up now. 01:21:10.719 --> 01:21:11.469 It's different. 01:21:11.709 --> 01:21:15.639 I mean, they see people with disabilities in leading roles on tv, not just 01:21:15.639 --> 01:21:19.959 used as a prop or as inspiration porn for somebody else, right? 01:21:20.169 --> 01:21:26.009 They see they see diversity in terms of sexuality, and they are feeling 01:21:26.429 --> 01:21:28.889 the, the impact of guns in schools. 01:21:29.099 --> 01:21:32.399 So the people who are starting these environmental movements, these movements 01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:37.779 against assault weapons and these sorts of things, these are the young people. 01:21:38.139 --> 01:21:40.629 And these, the young people are the ones who are gonna have to 01:21:40.629 --> 01:21:45.819 say, Hey, it's worth the sacrifice to, to start to make a difference. 01:21:46.059 --> 01:21:48.069 And, and the young people are Christians. 01:21:48.069 --> 01:21:51.519 They're gonna have to say, our theology's not prepared for this. 01:21:52.299 --> 01:21:52.989 And so we have 01:21:52.989 --> 01:21:53.709 Rupert Isaacson: to revisit it. 01:21:54.309 --> 01:21:54.549 Yeah. 01:21:54.549 --> 01:21:56.529 I thought our theology's not prepared for this. 01:21:56.529 --> 01:21:59.319 So, you know, when I asked you for, where's, where's the 01:21:59.319 --> 01:22:00.429 environmentalism in the Bible? 01:22:00.429 --> 01:22:04.689 You gave you something from job, but it's not like it's everywhere in the Bible. 01:22:04.689 --> 01:22:05.019 Right. 01:22:05.049 --> 01:22:07.539 And where is it in the New Testament? 01:22:08.774 --> 01:22:09.344 Or is it that? 01:22:09.374 --> 01:22:11.834 Ben Connor: Yeah, I mean it's, it's, or do we have to read 01:22:11.834 --> 01:22:12.974 Rupert Isaacson: between the lines to find it? 01:22:13.004 --> 01:22:14.594 Ben Connor: You have to read between the lines. 01:22:14.594 --> 01:22:18.824 But in Romans, in, in Romans chapter eight, it's gonna talk about all of 01:22:18.824 --> 01:22:20.744 creation, groaning for redemption. 01:22:21.074 --> 01:22:27.374 And then, and, and, and, and Philippians is gonna talk about Jesus' is the sort of 01:22:27.374 --> 01:22:33.654 the head over all that is all of creation comes into its fullness in Jesus Christ. 01:22:33.654 --> 01:22:38.454 And then you're gonna get a vision and revelation of the tree restored. 01:22:38.454 --> 01:22:42.694 I mean, you know, the, the mythology of, of Adam and Eve with 01:22:42.694 --> 01:22:44.974 rejecting the hospitality of God. 01:22:45.704 --> 01:22:46.994 It's not about the apple. 01:22:46.994 --> 01:22:49.544 It's really more about the rejection of the hospitality of God. 01:22:49.544 --> 01:22:53.204 It's about it's about hubris and these sorts of things, but when 01:22:53.204 --> 01:22:54.974 we see the restoration vision and. 01:22:55.274 --> 01:22:56.984 In Revelation. 01:22:56.984 --> 01:22:58.694 Then we have the tree of life. 01:22:58.694 --> 01:23:00.104 We have the river of life. 01:23:00.464 --> 01:23:06.464 We have those sorts of visions of ancy and, and fertility in life. 01:23:07.004 --> 01:23:09.164 And so it's, it's, it's not strong. 01:23:09.494 --> 01:23:15.824 But of course, the Bible is fundamentally a book to be read outside. 01:23:16.094 --> 01:23:17.774 I mean, Jesus in the wilderness. 01:23:17.774 --> 01:23:21.944 There's some beautiful artwork by Stanley Spencer called Jesus Jesus 01:23:21.944 --> 01:23:22.304 Rupert Isaacson: in the wilderness. 01:23:22.634 --> 01:23:23.744 Jesus in the wilderness. 01:23:23.744 --> 01:23:25.124 Maybe that's what we're looking for. 01:23:25.904 --> 01:23:28.874 Ben Connor: I think we're looking at, so it's not really told what happens there. 01:23:28.874 --> 01:23:33.104 People think, okay, he, he goes 40 days and he's fasting. 01:23:33.104 --> 01:23:33.854 He's starving. 01:23:33.854 --> 01:23:34.574 He is miserable. 01:23:34.574 --> 01:23:36.674 He is tempted by the devil. 01:23:36.674 --> 01:23:37.694 And then where does he go? 01:23:37.694 --> 01:23:41.204 He gets baptized and water starts his public ministry, this sort of thing. 01:23:41.684 --> 01:23:45.794 Stanley Spencer wondered what happened when the person who's involved in creation 01:23:45.794 --> 01:23:50.564 is there with creation and he has these clever pictures having been impacted 01:23:50.564 --> 01:23:52.244 by the devastation of World War I. 01:23:53.964 --> 01:24:00.234 You know, the trenches and mustard gas and, and, and fire and everything. 01:24:00.694 --> 01:24:02.224 Just the death and destruction. 01:24:02.554 --> 01:24:07.534 I think his paintings are a kind of ugia, it's a vision of Ugia. 01:24:07.534 --> 01:24:08.224 Who talking about here? 01:24:08.824 --> 01:24:09.064 Sorry? 01:24:09.064 --> 01:24:09.634 Stanley. 01:24:09.634 --> 01:24:10.324 Stanley. 01:24:10.324 --> 01:24:11.104 Spencer. 01:24:11.224 --> 01:24:11.524 Stanley. 01:24:11.524 --> 01:24:11.914 Spencer. 01:24:11.914 --> 01:24:12.994 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yes, yes, 01:24:13.204 --> 01:24:13.564 Ben Connor: yep. 01:24:13.939 --> 01:24:18.809 And so, I think I can't remember where his art is now, maybe in Durham, but he, he 01:24:18.809 --> 01:24:21.389 wanted to do 40 paintings for the 40 days. 01:24:21.389 --> 01:24:23.789 But one of 'em is Jesus. 01:24:24.179 --> 01:24:24.269 Yes. 01:24:24.269 --> 01:24:24.329 His 01:24:24.329 --> 01:24:26.429 Rupert Isaacson: paintings are all over churches in England. 01:24:26.429 --> 01:24:26.974 Yeah, yeah. 01:24:26.974 --> 01:24:26.975 Yep. 01:24:27.839 --> 01:24:28.169 He 01:24:28.169 --> 01:24:30.999 Ben Connor: does one called, you know, the foxes have holds where Jesus 01:24:30.999 --> 01:24:36.339 seems to be part of the environment and the foxes are playing around him. 01:24:36.579 --> 01:24:39.909 And there's one where he is holding a scorpion, and the scorpions obviously 01:24:39.909 --> 01:24:43.989 stung him, but he's looking at it with such curiosity and and love. 01:24:43.989 --> 01:24:48.099 And there's one where, you know, he's like the mother hen with the hens around. 01:24:48.099 --> 01:24:51.939 And there's one where even the lilies, where he looks like a boulder, and he 01:24:51.939 --> 01:24:54.099 is, he's attending to these lilies. 01:24:54.309 --> 01:24:59.619 Stanley Spencer was saying it was this time in the wilderness that 01:24:59.619 --> 01:25:02.889 gave Jesus the strength to do what he was gonna have to do the next 01:25:02.889 --> 01:25:05.199 three years in his public ministry. 01:25:05.379 --> 01:25:08.889 It was this connection and may perhaps he was nurtured and cared 01:25:08.889 --> 01:25:10.149 for by the very environment. 01:25:10.705 --> 01:25:14.115 Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm 01:25:14.115 --> 01:25:18.795 guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not 01:25:18.795 --> 01:25:22.695 just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly 01:25:22.715 --> 01:25:26.405 about the relationship with nature. 01:25:26.855 --> 01:25:30.035 Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything. 01:25:30.775 --> 01:25:33.725 And I'd like to draw your attention to my books. 01:25:33.735 --> 01:25:38.415 If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps 01:25:38.415 --> 01:25:42.875 you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy 01:25:43.575 --> 01:25:48.545 and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered, 01:25:48.605 --> 01:25:50.755 what started Live Free Ride Free. 01:25:50.775 --> 01:25:54.555 And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing 01:25:54.555 --> 01:25:57.045 Land, which tells the story of. 01:25:57.750 --> 01:26:03.140 My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people 01:26:03.140 --> 01:26:07.300 there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned. 01:26:07.550 --> 01:26:08.810 Come on that adventure with me. 01:26:08.834 --> 01:26:12.154 Now I think, I think you just draw my attention to something interesting. 01:26:12.334 --> 01:26:19.684 So yes, there, there was of course an environmental, philosophical, 01:26:19.684 --> 01:26:26.164 mythological movement within Christianity that we all know about, but don't pay 01:26:26.164 --> 01:26:29.074 a lot of attention to because they were written as children's books. 01:26:29.374 --> 01:26:30.844 And that of course is Narnia. 01:26:31.564 --> 01:26:31.804 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:26:32.174 --> 01:26:37.214 Rupert Isaacson: So CS Lewis, as we know goes through World War I and then 01:26:37.214 --> 01:26:40.694 has a sort of a Christian rebirth. 01:26:42.224 --> 01:26:43.304 And what does he write? 01:26:43.304 --> 01:26:49.874 Course he writes lots of things, but the Narnia Chronicles are about, are 01:26:50.144 --> 01:27:00.074 with characters who the church took from pagan religion and mythology and 01:27:00.074 --> 01:27:02.534 turned into demons and devils, you know. 01:27:03.509 --> 01:27:07.859 People with horns on their head and goat's legs, for example, and turns them 01:27:07.859 --> 01:27:15.419 into the good characters because they were, of course back then and the white 01:27:15.419 --> 01:27:20.254 witch is manipulating that creation. 01:27:21.234 --> 01:27:21.654 Mm-hmm. 01:27:21.989 --> 01:27:27.749 But as control, who is a lion, who's an animal, and lion shall lie down 01:27:27.749 --> 01:27:28.629 with a lamb, and so on and so on. 01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:29.549 But none. 01:27:29.834 --> 01:27:33.299 And, and, and maybe that's it again, lion shall lie down with the lamb. 01:27:35.039 --> 01:27:39.209 I, I think that was what was fundamentally driving CS Lewis. 01:27:39.389 --> 01:27:46.019 That idea comes out of World War I, which is everyone tries to kill everybody. 01:27:46.409 --> 01:27:49.529 And now let's get back to Lion with the Lamb and let's, but 01:27:49.769 --> 01:27:55.889 specifically going back to pagan imagery and mythology, you, you know. 01:27:57.134 --> 01:28:00.344 SEIUs is in there, Baus is in there. 01:28:00.704 --> 01:28:09.345 You know, all these pagan dairies are in there, and yet there's no, and, and, and 01:28:09.350 --> 01:28:18.404 Christ is a lion and there's no separation in CS Lewis's mind about that Christmas. 01:28:18.404 --> 01:28:19.514 And the other one is Tolkien. 01:28:19.904 --> 01:28:22.064 So Tolkien, I was gonna say Tolkien and the, and the 01:28:22.064 --> 01:28:24.404 trees, the wisdom of the trees. 01:28:24.644 --> 01:28:26.744 He, he goes through World War I, the same thing. 01:28:27.164 --> 01:28:27.374 Yep. 01:28:27.554 --> 01:28:33.744 And what they both also describe in their when the villains are trying to, you know, 01:28:33.744 --> 01:28:42.934 whether it's so, and Mann cutting down Fon or the white witch, you know, turning 01:28:42.934 --> 01:28:45.724 everything into stone concrete, you know. 01:28:46.324 --> 01:28:46.594 Yeah. 01:28:46.714 --> 01:28:48.604 What they were seeing, of course. 01:28:49.309 --> 01:28:53.659 pre-World War I was industrialization of the countryside. 01:28:53.929 --> 01:28:59.449 And then they were seeing the absolute devastation of, of nature. 01:28:59.629 --> 01:29:03.769 They were in these French forests that just got absolutely destroyed. 01:29:03.979 --> 01:29:05.449 But then were resurrected later. 01:29:05.449 --> 01:29:06.559 They're, they're back now. 01:29:07.249 --> 01:29:11.149 And then they came out of this and they wrote these books. 01:29:11.719 --> 01:29:11.869 Yeah. 01:29:11.899 --> 01:29:17.539 Which are deeply Christian books with ELs and wizards and thorns and things. 01:29:17.539 --> 01:29:21.649 And so, so I guess it's interesting, I I, I guess it is there hiding in 01:29:21.649 --> 01:29:25.214 plain sight this this environmental movement within the church. 01:29:26.984 --> 01:29:27.274 Yeah. 01:29:28.654 --> 01:29:31.689 Are are you all gonna bring us back to Mr. 01:29:32.019 --> 01:29:35.709 Nus and, and, and, and Tom Bombadil? 01:29:36.579 --> 01:29:37.029 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:29:37.029 --> 01:29:40.289 No, I, I think I think I'm gonna try to do it through, through 01:29:40.289 --> 01:29:42.269 nature excursions with children. 01:29:43.049 --> 01:29:46.649 I think I'm gonna do it with a recasting of the horses having a vocation. 01:29:47.519 --> 01:29:47.909 Yeah. 01:29:48.119 --> 01:29:52.229 I think that's the way that I'm, I'm imagining moving forward in this 01:29:52.229 --> 01:29:57.474 conversation and, and through my own how I consume and, and how I, 01:29:58.044 --> 01:30:01.284 'cause we have to consume, I mean, everything consumes or you die, you 01:30:01.284 --> 01:30:02.994 have to consume, but how consume 01:30:02.994 --> 01:30:04.284 Rupert Isaacson: consuming as being part of nature. 01:30:04.284 --> 01:30:05.214 It's just how we do it, 01:30:05.724 --> 01:30:06.144 Ben Connor: right? 01:30:06.234 --> 01:30:06.594 Yeah. 01:30:06.624 --> 01:30:07.814 I mean, one of the most yeah. 01:30:08.124 --> 01:30:11.334 Soil is, is death and life. 01:30:11.664 --> 01:30:12.234 Mm-hmm. 01:30:12.624 --> 01:30:13.554 At the same time. 01:30:13.824 --> 01:30:17.994 And so how, how do I, how do I engage the world in a, in a 01:30:17.994 --> 01:30:22.074 faithful way that doesn't, that, that contributes to the flourishing 01:30:22.074 --> 01:30:24.594 of all creatures and, and land. 01:30:24.804 --> 01:30:25.914 And that's a challenge. 01:30:26.004 --> 01:30:29.724 It's a challenge with where you get your clothes and what you eat and 01:30:29.724 --> 01:30:30.204 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 01:30:30.834 --> 01:30:31.224 Mm. 01:30:31.344 --> 01:30:31.734 It is 01:30:31.734 --> 01:30:34.734 Ben Connor: even, even how you, how you take care of your pond, you know, 01:30:35.094 --> 01:30:36.534 all those, all those are challenging. 01:30:36.744 --> 01:30:36.894 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:30:36.894 --> 01:30:37.854 What you feed your horse. 01:30:37.944 --> 01:30:38.514 Absolutely. 01:30:38.814 --> 01:30:39.629 Let alone feed your horse. 01:30:39.684 --> 01:30:40.014 Feed now. 01:30:42.594 --> 01:30:43.164 Okay. 01:30:44.874 --> 01:30:49.284 I would like to see like forest schools. 01:30:49.434 --> 01:30:52.224 I would like to see forest churches. 01:30:53.064 --> 01:30:54.864 Are we gonna go back to sacred groves? 01:30:54.864 --> 01:30:56.514 Can we go back to Sacred Groves? 01:30:57.054 --> 01:31:01.494 Ben Connor: So that is Victoria Loz, L-O-O-R-Z. 01:31:02.334 --> 01:31:03.774 Victoria Loz. 01:31:03.774 --> 01:31:04.404 She wrote 01:31:05.544 --> 01:31:06.864 Rupert Isaacson: L-O-O-R-Z. 01:31:06.864 --> 01:31:07.194 Yep, 01:31:07.254 --> 01:31:07.914 Ben Connor: that is right. 01:31:07.914 --> 01:31:10.399 She wrote a book called Church of the Wild. 01:31:10.859 --> 01:31:11.279 Church 01:31:11.819 --> 01:31:12.559 Rupert Isaacson: of the Wild. 01:31:12.924 --> 01:31:13.974 Ben Connor: Church of the Wild. 01:31:13.974 --> 01:31:18.264 And she was a, she was a minister for years working inside the church. 01:31:18.264 --> 01:31:21.794 And then she realized that, all the things we've talked 01:31:21.794 --> 01:31:23.114 about were a challenge for her. 01:31:23.114 --> 01:31:27.494 So she started having outdoor church services and now there's a whole network 01:31:27.494 --> 01:31:30.404 in the United States of, of wild churches. 01:31:30.404 --> 01:31:31.814 There's a wild church network. 01:31:32.054 --> 01:31:33.764 Rupert Isaacson: Wild church network. 01:31:34.064 --> 01:31:37.874 Ben Connor: So in just about every, and she even has almost like a, a wild 01:31:38.384 --> 01:31:42.104 church, church of the Wild Seminary, almost like she has trainings you 01:31:42.104 --> 01:31:46.994 can do and they'll be reading you know, Thomas Berry and let's see, 01:31:47.264 --> 01:31:50.054 Farland Lane, the great conversation. 01:31:50.534 --> 01:31:51.824 And they'll read 01:31:52.064 --> 01:31:52.124 Rupert Isaacson: Shanette. 01:31:52.124 --> 01:31:52.904 I've just Googled it. 01:31:54.314 --> 01:31:54.974 Ben Connor: Oh, you found her? 01:31:55.499 --> 01:31:55.789 Yeah. 01:31:55.794 --> 01:31:56.114 Yeah. 01:31:56.414 --> 01:31:56.954 Rupert Isaacson: She just founder. 01:31:58.124 --> 01:32:00.374 Ben Connor: Yeah, so I, I've had a couple conversations with her. 01:32:00.374 --> 01:32:02.354 She's doing really creative work on that. 01:32:02.354 --> 01:32:06.194 Again, it's outside of the mainstream of Christianity, but I 01:32:06.194 --> 01:32:07.814 think it's starting to have some 01:32:07.814 --> 01:32:09.674 Rupert Isaacson: popping up all over the land, like wild 01:32:09.674 --> 01:32:11.684 mushrooms after a spring rain. 01:32:11.684 --> 01:32:15.464 Wild churches, wild church communities are responding to a call from deep 01:32:15.464 --> 01:32:21.074 within to change the way we relate to the natural world, moving from a collection 01:32:21.074 --> 01:32:24.494 of objects to a communion of subjects. 01:32:24.494 --> 01:32:25.304 Thomas Barry. 01:32:26.114 --> 01:32:26.774 There you go. 01:32:26.954 --> 01:32:27.314 See, 01:32:28.064 --> 01:32:29.234 Ben Connor: there's the conversation. 01:32:29.324 --> 01:32:29.714 So in this 01:32:29.714 --> 01:32:32.054 Rupert Isaacson: stage of mass extinctions as, wow, wow, wow. 01:32:32.534 --> 01:32:32.744 Okay. 01:32:32.744 --> 01:32:33.134 It's all there. 01:32:33.139 --> 01:32:33.539 Mm-hmm. 01:32:34.304 --> 01:32:35.654 So why didn't I know about this? 01:32:35.744 --> 01:32:36.939 I'm throwing a little tantrum now. 01:32:37.199 --> 01:32:39.179 Nah, nah, nah. 01:32:39.209 --> 01:32:40.019 This is my tantrum. 01:32:40.214 --> 01:32:40.604 Why? 01:32:40.634 --> 01:32:44.654 No, I, I've, I've been living in Texas for, you know, 20 plus years. 01:32:44.684 --> 01:32:46.904 Why has no one told me about this? 01:32:47.774 --> 01:32:48.134 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:32:48.134 --> 01:32:49.874 I, I, I have no idea. 01:32:49.964 --> 01:32:52.199 I can't tell you that, but I'm glad we're having a conversation. 01:32:52.199 --> 01:32:52.874 How did you find out about 01:32:52.874 --> 01:32:52.964 Rupert Isaacson: it? 01:32:53.114 --> 01:32:57.224 That, what, what was the before and the after of you discovering this 01:32:57.674 --> 01:32:59.504 nature movement Within the church? 01:32:59.504 --> 01:32:59.564 Hmm. 01:33:01.004 --> 01:33:02.024 Or within Christianity. 01:33:02.024 --> 01:33:03.134 Let's not even say the church. 01:33:03.134 --> 01:33:04.214 Let's say we think Christianity. 01:33:05.384 --> 01:33:05.924 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:33:05.924 --> 01:33:09.104 I think growing up there were some things around stewardship. 01:33:09.654 --> 01:33:14.094 There were some bible study sort of things around stewardship in the nineties, 01:33:14.484 --> 01:33:16.224 but none of 'em were really gripping. 01:33:17.254 --> 01:33:18.544 It wasn't until I. 01:33:21.769 --> 01:33:25.999 I think it was related to doing research for this grant, maybe. 01:33:26.029 --> 01:33:29.419 No, it was, you know what, it was my relationship with horses. 01:33:29.659 --> 01:33:33.319 It was through Melissa when I was hanging out with horses. 01:33:33.619 --> 01:33:36.559 And of course I'm always thinking theologically and I thought, 01:33:36.559 --> 01:33:38.299 who's really written about this? 01:33:38.689 --> 01:33:41.359 And I couldn't find anything directly about that. 01:33:41.989 --> 01:33:46.309 But I found the larger conversation, which was theology of animals and 01:33:46.339 --> 01:33:50.509 biolog and, and eco theologians and these sorts of things. 01:33:50.509 --> 01:33:52.729 So a lot of it actually comes out of our 01:33:52.729 --> 01:33:53.629 Rupert Isaacson: wives, basically. 01:33:53.629 --> 01:33:53.929 Yeah, 01:33:54.679 --> 01:33:55.459 Ben Connor: a lot of it. 01:33:55.559 --> 01:34:01.179 So there's, there's a conversation strand that's connected to process, philosophy 01:34:01.179 --> 01:34:06.199 and process theology, which comes out of Alfred North Whitehead's work. 01:34:06.199 --> 01:34:08.929 And Charles Hartshorn work is the idea. 01:34:10.099 --> 01:34:13.939 It's basically a different way of thinking about how the world's put together. 01:34:14.629 --> 01:34:18.709 That they're that you, you aren't just a body, but you're a collection of actual 01:34:19.369 --> 01:34:23.959 es that are all working together as sort of a different structure to the world that 01:34:23.959 --> 01:34:30.469 had them make some creative theological moves to take creation more se seriously 01:34:30.619 --> 01:34:35.309 so that we are in fact part of creation and not set apart of it as a lot of the 01:34:35.309 --> 01:34:41.639 inherited theology spoke, so that was called process theology, and there's some 01:34:41.639 --> 01:34:47.909 really creative work on embodiment and bodies that comes out of process theology. 01:34:47.909 --> 01:34:50.819 So that, that was one area that got me thinking about that. 01:34:50.819 --> 01:34:52.769 And the other was of course, disability. 01:34:53.519 --> 01:34:55.589 Disability and disability studies. 01:34:55.879 --> 01:34:56.779 Since people with. 01:34:57.184 --> 01:35:00.484 Disabilities are often cast as less than human. 01:35:00.964 --> 01:35:04.894 It made people in disability studies say were treated similarly 01:35:04.894 --> 01:35:09.364 to animals, and then some theology developed around that as well. 01:35:09.844 --> 01:35:10.024 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:35:11.044 --> 01:35:12.364 Ben Connor: But it's recent for me. 01:35:14.014 --> 01:35:15.634 Rupert Isaacson: Were you always Christian? 01:35:15.634 --> 01:35:16.834 Were you always a believer? 01:35:16.834 --> 01:35:19.144 Did you, did you reject it at some point? 01:35:19.984 --> 01:35:22.354 Do you have your punk rock band days? 01:35:22.354 --> 01:35:28.384 Like what, just quickly, what's your, your bio, how did you evolve? 01:35:28.444 --> 01:35:29.044 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:35:29.194 --> 01:35:29.524 Yeah. 01:35:29.524 --> 01:35:33.654 I, I mean, I was the kid whose parents made 'em go to church when I was young 01:35:33.654 --> 01:35:37.224 and I'd sneak outta church and play in the woods by church and show up 01:35:37.224 --> 01:35:40.254 at the end of the church with leaves in my hair and dirt on my knees and. 01:35:40.914 --> 01:35:41.754 They say, where were you? 01:35:41.754 --> 01:35:44.094 I was like, oh, I was at the youth group or whatever. 01:35:44.564 --> 01:35:50.744 When I had the chance to sort of make more decisions that Christianity I was 01:35:50.744 --> 01:35:53.264 experiencing wasn't very compelling to me. 01:35:53.774 --> 01:35:59.714 And so I thought it's, it's, I would just try to do what made me happy, 01:35:59.924 --> 01:36:04.064 but that became very self-interested and wasn't least satisfying either. 01:36:04.754 --> 01:36:10.034 And then I finally met some people who lived out their faith in, in 01:36:10.034 --> 01:36:12.554 a way that I felt was authentic. 01:36:12.734 --> 01:36:13.619 Rupert Isaacson: How old were you at that point? 01:36:14.804 --> 01:36:15.614 Ben Connor: I was 19. 01:36:15.614 --> 01:36:17.294 So two things happened at that time. 01:36:17.844 --> 01:36:18.894 Well, probably three things. 01:36:18.894 --> 01:36:23.394 So I was studying architecture and realized I didn't like architecture, 01:36:23.394 --> 01:36:25.434 so I was having a vocational crisis. 01:36:26.124 --> 01:36:29.274 My dad got cancer and was gonna die really soon, so I took a 01:36:29.274 --> 01:36:30.834 year off to take care of him. 01:36:31.564 --> 01:36:33.199 He ended up only living in another four months. 01:36:33.219 --> 01:36:34.924 He had a massive brain tumor. 01:36:34.924 --> 01:36:35.554 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:36:35.779 --> 01:36:38.689 Ben Connor: I wanted to know more about the Bible from somebody I felt like 01:36:38.689 --> 01:36:40.669 really knew it and wasn't manipulating it. 01:36:40.669 --> 01:36:47.509 And the person who most fit, that was a quadriplegic man who I'd meet with once 01:36:47.509 --> 01:36:51.619 a week, who would take me through the Bible and, you know, I'd have to flip 01:36:51.619 --> 01:36:55.219 him over and I'd have to put a cough drop in his mouth and I'd put the drink up. 01:36:55.519 --> 01:36:59.449 So this idea of service, the idea that people with disabilities have 01:36:59.449 --> 01:37:05.179 things to offer, tho, those things were there at the beginning of my 01:37:05.269 --> 01:37:07.369 owning my Christianity, I suppose. 01:37:07.999 --> 01:37:12.859 And then I started volunteering for a youth organization because I thought 01:37:13.009 --> 01:37:17.119 if someone had told me this when I was a kid in this way, I would've 01:37:17.629 --> 01:37:19.309 probably been more interested. 01:37:19.309 --> 01:37:21.439 So I was doing that. 01:37:21.679 --> 01:37:25.609 And then for the disability part, really that was with our son. 01:37:25.699 --> 01:37:26.689 So this was, I. 01:37:27.904 --> 01:37:32.344 I was getting ready to go to Princeton Theological Seminary to do a doctorate 01:37:32.914 --> 01:37:37.894 in basically mission acumen history of religion, which that's not worth 01:37:37.894 --> 01:37:42.934 continuing to talk about, but that was my focus Right before I went, my 01:37:42.934 --> 01:37:46.624 son had a seizure and we found out he had had a stroke at birth and was 01:37:46.624 --> 01:37:48.184 missing about a third of his brain. 01:37:49.594 --> 01:37:53.014 So that taught me to teach him differently and I found that 01:37:53.014 --> 01:37:54.484 classroom wasn't the best place. 01:37:54.484 --> 01:37:56.854 This is not un unlike your story. 01:37:57.064 --> 01:37:57.184 Yeah. 01:37:57.184 --> 01:37:59.944 Yours was the best place was have him on the back of a horse. 01:38:00.034 --> 01:38:04.534 Mine was, have him outside bouncing on a trampoline or scooting outside 01:38:04.834 --> 01:38:07.204 that he needed that in order to focus. 01:38:07.474 --> 01:38:11.704 So he, he listened to Homer while he was bouncing on a trampoline and I 01:38:11.704 --> 01:38:13.594 would read things to him while he was. 01:38:14.014 --> 01:38:16.054 Moving out outside. 01:38:16.414 --> 01:38:20.014 So outside became really important way for me to connect with my son. 01:38:20.014 --> 01:38:21.544 We got him into mountain biking. 01:38:22.034 --> 01:38:26.354 We'd spend a whole lot of time outside and then that, that needed 01:38:26.354 --> 01:38:28.484 to be more integrated with the faith. 01:38:28.484 --> 01:38:31.724 That seemed to be, you go to church, you go inside the church, 01:38:31.724 --> 01:38:35.534 you do spiritual stuff, and then you go out into the world where it 01:38:35.534 --> 01:38:39.554 doesn't necessarily apply, you know? 01:38:39.644 --> 01:38:42.944 And so I needed more integrated faith. 01:38:44.774 --> 01:38:46.094 Rupert Isaacson: Where did it go with your son? 01:38:46.274 --> 01:38:46.664 Quickly? 01:38:46.754 --> 01:38:48.494 What was the trajectory? 01:38:49.274 --> 01:38:52.844 Ben Connor: Yeah, so, so the trajectory for me, he won't, I'm sure he won't 01:38:52.844 --> 01:38:59.824 mind me saying this, but he had he had sensory integration issues, visual 01:38:59.824 --> 01:39:03.774 tracking issues visual range issues. 01:39:03.984 --> 01:39:04.794 What's that called? 01:39:04.794 --> 01:39:06.264 Peripheral vision issues, right? 01:39:06.754 --> 01:39:11.974 A lot of markers of being on the autism spectrum, but never a clear diagnosis 01:39:11.974 --> 01:39:13.984 because so many different things going on. 01:39:14.344 --> 01:39:18.614 We homeschooled him because school was a nightmare for him, but he really wanted 01:39:18.614 --> 01:39:20.264 to go to high school with his friends. 01:39:20.564 --> 01:39:24.674 So we got him to the point where he could, he barely made it through high school. 01:39:25.394 --> 01:39:30.264 At, at the end of it, he got in trouble for some drugs because the drugs, he 01:39:30.264 --> 01:39:34.794 used to self-medicate and sort of figure out who he was because he had social 01:39:34.854 --> 01:39:36.804 integration sort of challenges as well. 01:39:38.004 --> 01:39:41.074 That was a big move for him coming through that. 01:39:42.014 --> 01:39:46.124 Actually when I, when I picked him out from jail, I said, the first thing 01:39:46.124 --> 01:39:49.754 you're gonna hear me say is God loves you no matter what you do or say. 01:39:49.754 --> 01:39:53.234 And I love you no matter what you do or say, and we're gonna 01:39:53.234 --> 01:39:54.794 get this through this together. 01:39:56.204 --> 01:40:00.494 And the second thing I said was not as, not as nice. 01:40:00.974 --> 01:40:04.599 It was he sort of gave me some pushback and I said, I could have left you to 01:40:04.599 --> 01:40:08.319 be in the jail to be somebody else's bitch, but for the next week, you're 01:40:08.319 --> 01:40:11.979 gonna be mine and you're gonna get your hair cut and do exactly what I say. 01:40:13.359 --> 01:40:16.329 So yeah, I was dealing with the tension myself. 01:40:16.539 --> 01:40:16.719 Indeed. 01:40:16.719 --> 01:40:21.089 But the good news is he, he worked hard, had an aptitude for computers, 01:40:21.449 --> 01:40:24.719 put himself through a computer coding school, and now he's making more money 01:40:24.719 --> 01:40:29.579 than I am and living in Grand Rapids and is just a delightful, he is always 01:40:29.579 --> 01:40:30.959 been a delightful, wonderful kid. 01:40:31.449 --> 01:40:35.859 But now we relate on a different level as he's an adult who did, did he ever 01:40:36.639 --> 01:40:40.539 Rupert Isaacson: regrow that part of his brain that had been lost or, no? 01:40:40.539 --> 01:40:42.069 He is, he is made other connections. 01:40:42.099 --> 01:40:42.219 Right. 01:40:42.224 --> 01:40:43.779 The, the brain just made up for it. 01:40:44.289 --> 01:40:45.249 Ben Connor: Yeah, he's, he's a Wow. 01:40:46.299 --> 01:40:49.119 He's always been I'd say he's, he's. 01:40:49.899 --> 01:40:53.559 My other kids wouldn't mind me saying that Tommy's the smartest of my kids. 01:40:53.889 --> 01:40:55.389 I think he's smarter than me. 01:40:55.849 --> 01:41:00.409 As, as well in terms of his, he, he just has a remarkable intellect. 01:41:00.409 --> 01:41:04.424 He just schooling doesn't know what to do with someone who Yeah, sure. 01:41:04.779 --> 01:41:06.429 Who learns in nonlinear Well, 01:41:06.429 --> 01:41:09.159 Rupert Isaacson: but also what you did, of course, was you created 01:41:09.729 --> 01:41:14.229 all that neuroplasticity by getting 'em out in nature, moving, 01:41:15.129 --> 01:41:15.459 Ben Connor: yeah. 01:41:15.699 --> 01:41:19.149 Rupert Isaacson: BDNF, kinji cells, all of that stuff, which, 01:41:19.209 --> 01:41:19.899 Ben Connor: yeah, and yeah. 01:41:20.139 --> 01:41:20.739 Yeah, exactly. 01:41:20.739 --> 01:41:24.039 And in the process I learned about universal design and learning without 01:41:24.039 --> 01:41:25.269 knowing there was such a thing. 01:41:25.389 --> 01:41:25.569 Got it. 01:41:25.569 --> 01:41:26.805 So when I found this, this really, he 01:41:26.810 --> 01:41:28.389 Rupert Isaacson: was really your theological teacher. 01:41:29.064 --> 01:41:29.844 Ben Connor: Absolutely. 01:41:29.844 --> 01:41:32.544 He was my teacher for theological education. 01:41:32.544 --> 01:41:36.354 So if you take a course with me at the seminary, it's gonna be nothing 01:41:36.354 --> 01:41:38.634 like a typical academic course. 01:41:38.814 --> 01:41:39.084 That's very 01:41:39.324 --> 01:41:39.744 Rupert Isaacson: interesting. 01:41:40.044 --> 01:41:40.464 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:41:40.464 --> 01:41:44.814 So for example in a youth ministry class, I'm gonna have you. 01:41:45.919 --> 01:41:49.159 Learn about adolescents from social scientists and then 01:41:49.939 --> 01:41:54.409 create artwork that expresses the feeling of being an adolescent. 01:41:55.049 --> 01:41:58.199 I'm gonna have you come into class and I'm gonna put out games, and 01:41:58.199 --> 01:42:02.009 I'm gonna have you start playing the games and you're not gonna know why. 01:42:02.009 --> 01:42:04.649 And then after half an hour, I'm gonna tell you to switch games 01:42:04.649 --> 01:42:07.529 with someone else, and then you're gonna have to play that game. 01:42:07.529 --> 01:42:10.259 And then I'm gonna cut you off after 10 minutes and I'm gonna 01:42:10.259 --> 01:42:12.419 say, okay, let's talk about this. 01:42:12.419 --> 01:42:15.719 Who were the leaders who was uncomfortable with this kind of exercise? 01:42:15.869 --> 01:42:18.449 Who thought at the beginning, Hey, this is a learning exercise. 01:42:18.449 --> 01:42:19.469 What are we trying to learn? 01:42:19.649 --> 01:42:20.729 Who just enjoyed it? 01:42:20.939 --> 01:42:22.919 Who is competitive, who is collaborative? 01:42:23.159 --> 01:42:26.759 So I wanted them to learn about their own learning style so they can de. 01:42:27.179 --> 01:42:31.199 Destigmatize other learning styles and relativize their own learning styles. 01:42:31.649 --> 01:42:34.919 And so universal design and learning for me made a whole lot of sense. 01:42:35.159 --> 01:42:38.549 And it's informed, the way that I teach, it informs the way we run our center. 01:42:39.299 --> 01:42:43.559 So we're gonna have a symposium on disability and ministry the second 01:42:43.559 --> 01:42:49.259 Saturday in July, all this stuff, ministry website, we'll have a symposium. 01:42:49.469 --> 01:42:53.459 And the first half hour of it is an example of universal design 01:42:53.459 --> 01:42:56.879 and learning and worship that's led by people with disabilities. 01:43:00.359 --> 01:43:01.679 Rupert Isaacson: We're gonna have to do a second podcast. 01:43:03.174 --> 01:43:03.464 Ben Connor: Okay. 01:43:04.409 --> 01:43:05.409 Rupert Isaacson: So, okay. 01:43:05.874 --> 01:43:06.094 We 01:43:07.179 --> 01:43:08.619 Ben Connor: haven't even gotten into the bodybuilding. 01:43:08.889 --> 01:43:09.189 Rupert Isaacson: I know. 01:43:09.189 --> 01:43:10.899 I'm trying to marshal my questions here. 01:43:11.949 --> 01:43:14.799 We we're approaching the two hour mark and we are definitely gonna have to All right. 01:43:14.799 --> 01:43:15.279 Listeners. 01:43:15.614 --> 01:43:17.684 I promise you we're gonna get Ben Ben back. 01:43:17.864 --> 01:43:21.344 In fact, maybe we'll get Ben and Melissa back together as well because Melissa, 01:43:21.374 --> 01:43:26.644 his wife who runs Renew Therapeutic riding in Holland, Michigan is on his. 01:43:26.764 --> 01:43:30.984 I've just done a, a fascinating interview with her on, over on 01:43:31.064 --> 01:43:34.994 equine Assisted World, but I think, I think we need both of you guys on 01:43:34.994 --> 01:43:37.544 to continue this conversation here. 01:43:38.294 --> 01:43:43.964 Alright so here's another quick question 'cause we're approaching 01:43:43.964 --> 01:43:50.114 the two hour mark and you know, I think we've blown everybody's brains. 01:43:50.324 --> 01:43:53.804 So let's give a bit of a pause and then we'll come back and we'll pick 01:43:53.804 --> 01:43:55.364 this conversation up in a few weeks. 01:43:55.694 --> 01:44:01.224 But with your permission, why Christianity then? 01:44:01.674 --> 01:44:03.714 Because we've got. 01:44:04.164 --> 01:44:07.734 Plenty of other very good spiritual ways of looking at the world. 01:44:07.734 --> 01:44:09.564 You've got, you know, Buddhism, it's a good one. 01:44:09.964 --> 01:44:12.244 We've got Mystic Traditions within Islam. 01:44:12.244 --> 01:44:14.014 We've got Mystic Traditions within Judaism. 01:44:14.014 --> 01:44:16.144 We've got, you know, lots of good stuff. 01:44:16.174 --> 01:44:19.324 We, you know, shamanism and, and so on and so on. 01:44:20.084 --> 01:44:22.274 All of which was existing before Christianity. 01:44:22.934 --> 01:44:25.484 And so that, that's number one. 01:44:25.484 --> 01:44:29.474 Why, why then put a label on it. 01:44:29.504 --> 01:44:31.184 Why, why, why Christianity? 01:44:32.234 --> 01:44:39.824 And then the second question is, 'cause I could perhaps anticipate the answer 01:44:39.824 --> 01:44:44.924 of why Christianity might be to say, ah, but Rupert, it's because it's a, 01:44:45.014 --> 01:44:47.174 a religion predicated upon compassion. 01:44:47.354 --> 01:44:54.884 Although, of course Buddhism is too, but hey, but Christianity does not practice 01:44:54.884 --> 01:44:57.914 compassion in its mainstream, right? 01:44:58.364 --> 01:45:00.404 So, and why not? 01:45:00.404 --> 01:45:02.474 So, okay, so why Christianity? 01:45:02.834 --> 01:45:07.394 And then why is the Christ message the one message within 01:45:07.394 --> 01:45:08.564 Christianity that's ignored? 01:45:09.614 --> 01:45:10.214 Ben Connor: For sure. 01:45:10.214 --> 01:45:10.454 Sure. 01:45:10.454 --> 01:45:11.204 That's all fair. 01:45:11.414 --> 01:45:11.984 That's all. 01:45:11.984 --> 01:45:16.064 So on the one hand, it has to do with who, who you interact with in terms 01:45:16.064 --> 01:45:17.894 of how you receive the Christ message. 01:45:17.894 --> 01:45:17.984 Doubt. 01:45:18.434 --> 01:45:22.544 No, I, I, I spend most of my day with a lot of people who I believe 01:45:22.544 --> 01:45:24.644 are living faithful faithfully. 01:45:24.644 --> 01:45:25.754 Rupert Isaacson: DD, d, but you know what I'm saying. 01:45:26.144 --> 01:45:26.924 Ben Connor: Absolutely. 01:45:26.924 --> 01:45:27.884 I know what you're saying. 01:45:27.884 --> 01:45:30.944 I, I accept the critique with open arms. 01:45:31.034 --> 01:45:31.724 More question, 01:45:31.959 --> 01:45:32.309 Rupert Isaacson: Chris. 01:45:32.739 --> 01:45:33.029 Yeah. 01:45:33.249 --> 01:45:33.469 But 01:45:33.474 --> 01:45:35.174 Ben Connor: why, why Christianity? 01:45:35.724 --> 01:45:40.404 So I would say fundamentally then I'm responding to the call. 01:45:41.244 --> 01:45:45.594 Oh, follow me by Jesus, who I believe is still alive. 01:45:45.774 --> 01:45:48.744 I don't think he's hanging up in heaven watching cops waiting to come 01:45:48.744 --> 01:45:50.484 back again when the world's destroyed. 01:45:50.994 --> 01:45:56.064 I believe that Jesus is actively working in the world. 01:45:56.124 --> 01:45:56.544 Now. 01:45:56.544 --> 01:45:59.184 There's obviously then why is there still suffering? 01:45:59.184 --> 01:46:00.114 Why is all this? 01:46:00.414 --> 01:46:04.984 Because we live in a, in a created world with contingencies a log can 01:46:04.984 --> 01:46:07.564 be used to build a house or it can fall on your head and kill you. 01:46:07.774 --> 01:46:12.334 Water can be drunk to, to, to nourish you or it can drown you. 01:46:12.874 --> 01:46:13.234 Right. 01:46:13.324 --> 01:46:17.584 And so we have, we have choice and opportunities in that, but I'm compelled. 01:46:17.719 --> 01:46:19.684 Rupert Isaacson: But the world is older than Christianity. 01:46:19.684 --> 01:46:19.894 Right. 01:46:19.894 --> 01:46:21.694 And we've had, we've had Oh, absolutely. 01:46:21.934 --> 01:46:26.734 Christlike figures, whether it's the Buddha or Zorro Asta or 01:46:27.904 --> 01:46:29.704 ones we've forgotten, you know? 01:46:29.734 --> 01:46:30.124 Right. 01:46:30.124 --> 01:46:30.574 Ben Connor: So it has 01:46:30.574 --> 01:46:30.814 Rupert Isaacson: to be 01:46:30.814 --> 01:46:32.464 Ben Connor: a personal response 01:46:33.274 --> 01:46:33.694 Rupert Isaacson: then. 01:46:33.754 --> 01:46:34.084 Right. 01:46:34.204 --> 01:46:34.774 Ben Connor: And so it's 01:46:34.774 --> 01:46:36.994 Rupert Isaacson: just, it's just a, a, a, a heart feeling. 01:46:37.819 --> 01:46:37.999 Ben Connor: Yeah. 01:46:37.999 --> 01:46:41.389 It's a, it's a, it's a personal response to, and that's good enough for 01:46:41.389 --> 01:46:41.629 Rupert Isaacson: me. 01:46:41.989 --> 01:46:42.229 Yeah, 01:46:42.289 --> 01:46:42.769 Ben Connor: yeah, yeah. 01:46:43.249 --> 01:46:46.729 And, and so, but, but my Christianity doesn't take me out 01:46:46.729 --> 01:46:48.349 of dialogue with other religions. 01:46:48.649 --> 01:46:53.479 My Christianity is, it's, it's really, it's a, I, Christianity is such a 01:46:53.479 --> 01:46:57.229 compromise word, especially in United States where it means, you know, you're 01:46:57.229 --> 01:47:02.359 a Republican who voted for, for Trump, who doesn't seem to, and again, this 01:47:02.359 --> 01:47:05.869 is political, anybody who's listening, but the legislation that's coming 01:47:05.869 --> 01:47:10.789 out doesn't seem to care for the most marginalized people who I imagine Jesus 01:47:10.789 --> 01:47:14.899 would be spending most of the time with as he would be pushing against empire. 01:47:15.829 --> 01:47:17.119 And so that's the Christian 01:47:17.119 --> 01:47:19.879 Rupert Isaacson: telling people to go out and buy automatic rifles at Walmart. 01:47:19.909 --> 01:47:20.299 Yeah, 01:47:20.389 --> 01:47:21.049 Ben Connor: I imagine. 01:47:21.049 --> 01:47:21.349 Not. 01:47:21.349 --> 01:47:25.429 So, so, so then that's, that's the Christ that I follow. 01:47:26.219 --> 01:47:30.689 Christianity as a, as a religion has its problems. 01:47:30.719 --> 01:47:34.469 And since I'm a one who follows Christ and have been. 01:47:35.294 --> 01:47:40.124 In the US within a certain tradition, then I speak out of that tradition either as I 01:47:40.124 --> 01:47:41.924 critique it as one within the tradition. 01:47:41.954 --> 01:47:41.984 Okay. 01:47:42.284 --> 01:47:42.494 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:47:43.454 --> 01:47:43.664 Okay. 01:47:45.494 --> 01:47:46.694 And, okay. 01:47:46.844 --> 01:47:52.604 Why is the Christ message the one message within Christianity 01:47:52.604 --> 01:47:55.034 in America that is marginalized? 01:47:55.184 --> 01:47:59.294 The Christ message is marginalized within Christianity. 01:47:59.564 --> 01:47:59.894 Why? 01:48:01.874 --> 01:48:06.654 Ben Connor: I think because Christianity in large part is too enamored with power. 01:48:07.614 --> 01:48:07.974 Rupert Isaacson: It just, yeah. 01:48:08.424 --> 01:48:09.654 Just became another power thing. 01:48:09.834 --> 01:48:10.044 Yeah, 01:48:10.374 --> 01:48:10.734 Ben Connor: yeah. 01:48:10.914 --> 01:48:11.274 Yeah. 01:48:11.484 --> 01:48:11.844 Fair enough. 01:48:11.844 --> 01:48:13.734 And it's, yeah, it's too costly. 01:48:13.974 --> 01:48:15.714 It's too costly to follow Christ. 01:48:15.744 --> 01:48:17.904 It's too costly to do, to do his Jesus. 01:48:17.909 --> 01:48:18.559 It's a pain in the ass. 01:48:18.624 --> 01:48:18.954 It's, yeah. 01:48:19.044 --> 01:48:19.254 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:48:19.259 --> 01:48:19.519 Yeah. 01:48:21.264 --> 01:48:28.014 Interestingly, as we were talking, Ileana, my wife, my boss came in and slipped me 01:48:28.194 --> 01:48:31.194 this little bit of paper, the new Pope. 01:48:33.294 --> 01:48:33.624 Oh, I saw 01:48:33.624 --> 01:48:34.674 Ben Connor: we had that white smoke. 01:48:34.674 --> 01:48:35.634 I didn't know who it is. 01:48:35.664 --> 01:48:35.754 Yeah. 01:48:35.754 --> 01:48:36.024 Yes. 01:48:36.024 --> 01:48:36.714 It's the American 01:48:36.714 --> 01:48:36.954 Rupert Isaacson: dude. 01:48:38.574 --> 01:48:40.044 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:48:40.344 --> 01:48:41.874 First Is that the first American pope? 01:48:41.874 --> 01:48:42.684 I think it is, right? 01:48:43.164 --> 01:48:44.124 Ben Connor: Yeah, I think so. 01:48:45.804 --> 01:48:46.464 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 01:48:46.974 --> 01:48:47.814 Know anything about him? 01:48:48.564 --> 01:48:49.284 Ben Connor: Not at all. 01:48:49.404 --> 01:48:49.969 Rupert Isaacson: No, not at, I, 01:48:50.429 --> 01:48:51.234 Ben Connor: not at all. 01:48:51.564 --> 01:48:53.984 I really really appreciate the, the last pope. 01:48:54.164 --> 01:48:57.014 You know, I think, I think he was doing some important things. 01:48:57.014 --> 01:49:00.974 Of course he was a controversial pope because I think he was 01:49:00.974 --> 01:49:03.434 trying to do the very things that Jesus would call him to do, but 01:49:03.439 --> 01:49:03.699 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:49:03.944 --> 01:49:05.864 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:49:06.944 --> 01:49:13.834 Alright, so we can agree that if you want to live in Christ, it might be 01:49:13.834 --> 01:49:19.054 a good idea not to cut that forest down and pave the entire planet. 01:49:19.714 --> 01:49:22.144 I've really enjoyed this conversation, Ben. 01:49:22.194 --> 01:49:23.964 Can we, can we delve deeper? 01:49:23.964 --> 01:49:25.224 I've got more questions than I think. 01:49:25.554 --> 01:49:29.004 And actually, listeners, listeners, listeners, especially American 01:49:29.004 --> 01:49:32.664 listeners, please send us your questions. 01:49:33.144 --> 01:49:35.034 Put, put them in the comments below. 01:49:35.634 --> 01:49:38.034 Even if you hated this, like tell us why. 01:49:38.034 --> 01:49:43.854 Don't just go but just, you know, en engage us, engage the dialogue but 01:49:44.694 --> 01:49:48.454 come up with a bunch of questions because Ben's a rare breed and he's 01:49:48.754 --> 01:49:50.464 turned us onto some other rare breeds. 01:49:51.334 --> 01:49:53.614 And we're gonna continue this conversation, so please 01:49:53.614 --> 01:49:54.634 give us your questions. 01:49:55.054 --> 01:49:57.754 Ben, how do people find you and how do people find your books? 01:49:59.554 --> 01:50:03.094 Ben Connor: Well, if you go to the Center for Disability and Ministry, 01:50:03.094 --> 01:50:05.854 if you just type in Center for Disability and Ministry, I don't 01:50:05.854 --> 01:50:07.594 believe there's another one then 01:50:07.894 --> 01:50:09.454 Rupert Isaacson: spelt in the American way. 01:50:09.454 --> 01:50:09.934 ER? 01:50:09.934 --> 01:50:10.444 Yes. 01:50:10.449 --> 01:50:13.789 The wrong in the American One, center for Disability. 01:50:14.704 --> 01:50:15.844 Ben Connor: And Ministry. 01:50:15.934 --> 01:50:17.104 Rupert Isaacson: And Ministry. 01:50:17.524 --> 01:50:17.794 Ben Connor: Mm-hmm. 01:50:17.854 --> 01:50:21.874 And it's at, if, if you have a hard time finding it, you can find it on the 01:50:21.874 --> 01:50:24.964 Western Theological Seminary website. 01:50:24.964 --> 01:50:25.864 That's where I work. 01:50:25.864 --> 01:50:26.879 Western Theological, 01:50:26.879 --> 01:50:28.959 Rupert Isaacson: Western Theological 01:50:31.054 --> 01:50:31.954 Seminary. 01:50:32.314 --> 01:50:32.464 Ben Connor: Yep. 01:50:32.599 --> 01:50:37.144 And all my contact information is right there on the center website 01:50:37.144 --> 01:50:38.944 as well as a link to our podcast. 01:50:39.844 --> 01:50:40.144 Yep. 01:50:40.234 --> 01:50:41.944 They can, they can contact me that way. 01:50:42.334 --> 01:50:42.754 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:50:43.204 --> 01:50:44.464 And books, publications. 01:50:44.674 --> 01:50:47.224 What, what, what should people look at if they want to know about your work? 01:50:47.929 --> 01:50:48.649 So that will be 01:50:48.649 --> 01:50:52.159 Ben Connor: on the, that'll be on the, that'll be on my faculty website as well. 01:50:52.159 --> 01:50:56.659 But three books published at, at this point, one called Practicing 01:50:56.659 --> 01:51:00.559 Witness, which is the very thing we were talking about that, that it's 01:51:00.559 --> 01:51:04.459 less about what you say about your, your Christian practice in the world. 01:51:04.729 --> 01:51:07.364 The second book is called Amplifying Our Witness. 01:51:07.609 --> 01:51:09.859 That's about youth ministry and disability. 01:51:10.339 --> 01:51:11.029 So it's, right. 01:51:11.029 --> 01:51:14.119 And that's the only book on youth ministry and disability at this point. 01:51:14.269 --> 01:51:14.539 Wow. 01:51:15.169 --> 01:51:18.929 And then disabling mission, enabling witness puts. 01:51:19.484 --> 01:51:24.104 Mission studies in conversation with disability studies to see what comes out. 01:51:24.104 --> 01:51:28.004 The other side, two books I'm working on right now. 01:51:28.004 --> 01:51:32.204 I also edit a book series that's co-branded between my center 01:51:32.204 --> 01:51:34.184 and InterVarsity Press Academic. 01:51:34.424 --> 01:51:39.854 So I have a book I'm doing with John Swinton of Aberdeen called Missing 01:51:39.854 --> 01:51:45.314 Voices in Theology, where we engage people who use augmented speech or who 01:51:45.314 --> 01:51:50.804 have lost their sort of platform because of an onset disability or a diagnosis. 01:51:51.014 --> 01:51:55.154 And we are setting up sort of why does this happen and then we're 01:51:55.454 --> 01:51:56.834 putting their voices in there. 01:51:56.894 --> 01:51:58.604 Rupert Isaacson: John Swinton, university of Aberdeen. 01:51:59.369 --> 01:52:00.209 Ben Connor: Brilliant guy. 01:52:00.209 --> 01:52:04.079 And then I'm doing a book with Melissa Harmony with horses, a 01:52:04.079 --> 01:52:06.599 Theology of Equine Assisted Services. 01:52:06.929 --> 01:52:11.689 And I'm building on the work of like, the Dorrs and what's your name? 01:52:11.689 --> 01:52:12.439 You're right there. 01:52:12.869 --> 01:52:13.589 Ray Hunt. 01:52:13.799 --> 01:52:13.919 Yeah. 01:52:13.919 --> 01:52:14.729 How do you forget the name? 01:52:14.729 --> 01:52:15.239 Ray Hunt? 01:52:15.239 --> 01:52:15.629 I don't know. 01:52:15.689 --> 01:52:15.809 Yeah. 01:52:16.019 --> 01:52:18.959 But that whole revolution in horsemanship and the way they were talking about 01:52:18.959 --> 01:52:24.059 harmony, how do we jive that with Christian theology and how does that 01:52:24.059 --> 01:52:25.919 inform the way you run a center? 01:52:26.579 --> 01:52:30.719 And then I have a project I'm doing on bodybuilding and theology. 01:52:30.869 --> 01:52:30.989 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:52:30.989 --> 01:52:32.639 We haven't, we haven't gotten to that one yet. 01:52:33.029 --> 01:52:33.209 Yeah. 01:52:33.209 --> 01:52:35.099 When you, when you meet Ben, he's a big dude. 01:52:35.939 --> 01:52:39.629 So there's, there's a whole other conversation there which is 01:52:39.629 --> 01:52:43.109 interesting to me because most people use bodybuilding around narcissism. 01:52:43.649 --> 01:52:48.229 And so it's very interesting to meet someone who's into it, who's coming 01:52:48.319 --> 01:52:49.579 from a whole other point of view. 01:52:49.819 --> 01:52:50.149 But I think. 01:52:51.259 --> 01:52:54.949 I'm just gonna leave that as a little hook for you listeners 01:52:55.309 --> 01:52:56.569 for the next conversation. 01:52:56.599 --> 01:52:57.259 Okay. 01:52:57.559 --> 01:53:01.699 This has been really educational for me, so I appreciate it, Ben. 01:53:02.299 --> 01:53:04.729 Will you come on again in a few weeks and we can talk more? 01:53:05.869 --> 01:53:06.499 Ben Connor: Absolutely. 01:53:06.499 --> 01:53:07.819 I'd love to come on with Melissa. 01:53:07.819 --> 01:53:08.689 That would be a lot of fun. 01:53:08.719 --> 01:53:08.779 Yeah, 01:53:08.779 --> 01:53:09.349 Rupert Isaacson: let's do it. 01:53:09.349 --> 01:53:09.769 Let's do it. 01:53:09.769 --> 01:53:09.949 Thank you. 01:53:10.129 --> 01:53:13.789 And then we'll, we'll try to get some of these, these others on Victoria laws and 01:53:13.839 --> 01:53:14.414 Ben Connor: the Reinst. 01:53:14.419 --> 01:53:14.739 STRs. 01:53:15.009 --> 01:53:15.489 Yeah. 01:53:15.569 --> 01:53:18.209 Ron and Deb Reinst Straw would be a great 'cause. 01:53:18.209 --> 01:53:23.309 He is also involved with an organization called a Rocha, A-R-O-C-H-A. 01:53:23.799 --> 01:53:27.699 You can look up that online, but that's a, that's a eco theology 01:53:27.699 --> 01:53:29.529 sort of a organization as well. 01:53:29.604 --> 01:53:29.894 Okay. 01:53:30.044 --> 01:53:30.334 Okay. 01:53:30.639 --> 01:53:31.029 Okay. 01:53:31.479 --> 01:53:33.459 Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I know lots of people within our sort of 01:53:33.459 --> 01:53:38.409 horse boy world who are Christians who are also looking for something. 01:53:40.224 --> 01:53:42.294 I guess actually I should be paying homage. 01:53:42.504 --> 01:53:45.684 So actually I want to dedicate this, I want to dedicate this 01:53:45.734 --> 01:53:48.374 episode to my cousin Frank Taylor. 01:53:49.604 --> 01:53:52.994 My cousin Frank Taylor died a few years ago. 01:53:53.684 --> 01:53:59.714 He was the man who really pioneered the whole concept of agroforestry dry land, 01:53:59.744 --> 01:54:05.394 agroforestry, if you've ever picked up a Devil's Claw product for arthritis. 01:54:05.484 --> 01:54:11.554 He was the guy that pioneered Devil's Claw as a, as a viable commercial 01:54:11.554 --> 01:54:14.074 product out of the deserts of Botswana. 01:54:14.764 --> 01:54:16.954 He worked for many, many years with. 01:54:17.329 --> 01:54:20.959 Marginalized hunter gatherer communities who'd been displaced by 01:54:21.169 --> 01:54:25.519 more aggressive cattle owning cultures and basically enslaved by them. 01:54:25.819 --> 01:54:30.799 And he helped them to plant wild gardens of their wild plants that they had. 01:54:30.799 --> 01:54:34.549 Sun Bushman who they, where they'd always gathered these things medicinally. 01:54:34.969 --> 01:54:38.119 And he helped them to find the most drought resistant 01:54:38.119 --> 01:54:41.269 phenotypes and then market those. 01:54:41.599 --> 01:54:45.649 And he had a whole, and, and he broke that international market open. 01:54:45.859 --> 01:54:52.249 He died from a scorpion sting aged about almost 90, about three or four years ago. 01:54:52.369 --> 01:54:53.149 Inspiration. 01:54:53.389 --> 01:54:57.679 Very Christian man, even though he was hanging out very 01:54:57.679 --> 01:55:00.109 much in that shamanic world. 01:55:00.619 --> 01:55:07.609 And I remember when I first met him as a young adult, I was 18, 01:55:08.629 --> 01:55:11.269 19, and I had just hitchhiked. 01:55:12.289 --> 01:55:15.019 Across Zimbabwe and Botswana. 01:55:15.439 --> 01:55:22.159 And he picked me up and he said to me, his first question when I got in the 01:55:22.159 --> 01:55:25.879 truck with him was, so tell me, Rupert, where are you in your spiritual odyssey? 01:55:27.289 --> 01:55:28.849 And I didn't know what to tell him. 01:55:29.599 --> 01:55:33.529 And then I said, well, actually, I had a dream, not the, not so 01:55:33.529 --> 01:55:35.029 long ago that I met the devil. 01:55:35.869 --> 01:55:38.749 And the devil was playing the violin. 01:55:39.979 --> 01:55:45.999 And when I heard this music, I felt this great sense of sadness that I was losing 01:55:45.999 --> 01:55:48.159 something, but I can't explain the dream. 01:55:48.159 --> 01:55:48.879 What do you think? 01:55:49.419 --> 01:55:50.229 And he said, oh yes. 01:55:50.229 --> 01:55:50.529 Well, 01:55:52.839 --> 01:55:55.629 they, I hates to leave, lose a good teammate. 01:55:55.979 --> 01:55:58.859 So, you know, you can expect some resistance. 01:55:58.859 --> 01:55:59.129 Yeah. 01:55:59.179 --> 01:56:01.519 If you're, if you're looking at other, other directions. 01:56:01.999 --> 01:56:04.989 And he really mentored me. 01:56:05.754 --> 01:56:10.704 Through a lot of my early work with the son Bushman and that human rights work 01:56:11.154 --> 01:56:15.564 that I did, and I always marveled at the fact that he could have this really 01:56:15.564 --> 01:56:23.604 sort of evangelical faith without, in any way, trying to convert the people 01:56:23.634 --> 01:56:27.504 that he worked with or four really. 01:56:29.004 --> 01:56:33.034 And he lived his life totally in service to nature in, in this interesting way. 01:56:33.334 --> 01:56:36.274 So yeah, I think I'd like to dedicate this episode to Frank Taylor 01:56:36.724 --> 01:56:42.874 from Felt Products Research and Development in Botswana who, yeah. 01:56:42.929 --> 01:56:43.219 Yeah. 01:56:43.219 --> 01:56:43.459 Yeah. 01:56:43.519 --> 01:56:48.034 So I guess I, I guess there have been threads here that I just haven't seen. 01:56:48.784 --> 01:56:49.024 Ben Connor: Mm-hmm. 01:56:49.534 --> 01:56:49.984 Well, thanks. 01:56:49.984 --> 01:56:50.374 Thank you. 01:56:50.374 --> 01:56:51.214 Thanks for sharing that. 01:56:51.214 --> 01:56:51.934 That means a lot. 01:56:53.884 --> 01:56:54.394 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for having 01:56:54.394 --> 01:56:54.844 Ben Connor: me on. 01:56:54.874 --> 01:56:57.514 It's always a, always a fun to speak to you. 01:56:57.514 --> 01:57:00.694 I, I want to hear you talking more next time. 01:57:00.694 --> 01:57:02.194 We have a conversation though, so, 01:57:02.384 --> 01:57:04.214 Rupert Isaacson: People have interviewed me, you know. 01:57:04.364 --> 01:57:04.754 Yeah. 01:57:04.754 --> 01:57:05.954 That, that's all out there. 01:57:06.224 --> 01:57:08.174 But I mean, not with 01:57:08.174 --> 01:57:09.344 Ben Connor: my questions though, right? 01:57:09.884 --> 01:57:10.454 Rupert Isaacson: It's all about 01:57:10.454 --> 01:57:10.544 Ben Connor: the 01:57:10.544 --> 01:57:11.114 Rupert Isaacson: questions. 01:57:11.114 --> 01:57:11.294 Ben Connor: Right. 01:57:11.324 --> 01:57:11.564 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:57:11.564 --> 01:57:12.284 Well, that's fine. 01:57:12.284 --> 01:57:13.604 We, we'll trade questions there. 01:57:13.844 --> 01:57:17.594 What we'll do on the next one is you, you, you write down your questions. 01:57:17.594 --> 01:57:19.274 I'll write down mine and we'll have a question off. 01:57:20.649 --> 01:57:21.309 Sounds good. 01:57:22.154 --> 01:57:26.634 With Melissa as the as the moderator, as the one who will actually 01:57:26.634 --> 01:57:27.774 come out with the truth probably. 01:57:27.894 --> 01:57:28.195 Oh, there you go. 01:57:28.529 --> 01:57:28.859 Okay. 01:57:28.859 --> 01:57:30.179 I, I, I, I'm honored. 01:57:30.179 --> 01:57:32.489 Thank you so much, Ben, for coming on. 01:57:33.109 --> 01:57:34.669 I'll see you in a few weeks with Melissa. 01:57:35.239 --> 01:57:35.869 Sounds great. 01:57:35.869 --> 01:57:36.499 Thanks for having me. 01:57:36.589 --> 01:57:37.189 All right, my friend. 01:57:37.379 --> 01:57:40.759 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:57:41.589 --> 01:57:45.339 If you did, please help us to make more. 01:57:45.339 --> 01:57:49.219 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 01:57:49.669 --> 01:57:54.919 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 01:57:55.239 --> 01:57:55.589 com. 01:57:55.789 --> 01:57:58.969 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 01:57:59.359 --> 01:58:03.309 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 01:58:03.369 --> 01:58:05.709 There's a whole range of cool 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