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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
I have had a question in my mind for about three decades now which is
having lived in the USA for 25 years or so before I moved back to Europe.
I was often intrigued in watching the rise of the conservative Christian thing and
how that became increasingly politicized.
And okay, I could understand that, but one of the things which I had trouble
understanding was that if one valued creation, why did one not look after it?
And where were the environmentalists?
Within Christianity at least, at least within American Christianity, because
it just didn't seem to be there.
And it seemed that this idea of man's dominion over the beasts or nature or
whatever seemed to be taken as a carte blanche to bleep it all up, to mess
it all up, to destroy it effectively.
And that even that destroying it almost seemed to be an imperative
within that theological outlook.
Why couldn't that mean stewardship of God's creation?
Why couldn't that mean environmentalism?
Why was that philosophically or theologically opposed to the Christian
conservative outlook and viewpoint?
And I could never quite understand this.
So I.
Been going round saying, where are the Christian environmentalists?
Where are they?
I guess you have to ask a question enough times because up pops Ben.
So ladies and gentlemen sitting before you today is somebody who I think
is part of an, of a growing movement within Christianity in America, which
is actually exactly this, the, the, the celebration of and nurture of nature
rather nature versus nurture, the nurture of nature within the Christian context.
Fascinating.
So Ben, welcome on the show.
Please tell us, and thank you for coming on.
Please tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah.
I'm excited to talk about this and talk with you.
So I am a professor of practical theology, which might lead you to
ask, what is Impractical Theology?
You know, which would be, in my mind, would be a good bit.
No old theology.
Impractical.
A good bit of it is, but theology that doesn't issue in love and care for
others to me is impractical theology.
Okay.
Practical theology starts with the practices of Christians, the hospitality,
forgiveness, these sorts of things, and tries to help individuals and
congregations do it more faithfully.
That's what practical theology is.
So we partner with the social sciences and with the hard science is to try
to understand our world, to try and understand humans how they respond.
So instead of just having philosophy as a theological conversation
partner, we have disability studies.
And for me, I have, I.
Sort of books on equines and these sorts of things, or, so it's a,
it's a very broad conversation that's focused on practice.
So that's my job.
I also started a Center for Disability and Ministry at Western Theological Seminary.
And where and
Rupert Isaacson: where's Western Theological Seminary based?
Ben Connor: You would imagine it would be in the West.
But I think it, it might have been at the time it was built before
all the expansion happened with the us but we're in Holland, Michigan.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Ben Connor: So Right, right next to Lake, lake, Michigan.
And so the Center is the only theological school in the United States that offers
accredited programs graduate certificate, a master's of Arts, and a doctor of
ministry in disability and ministry.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Ben Connor: And the focus is, is not so much on what we often hear when we
think about churches and ministry, which is how are we gonna minister to people
with disabilities, often casting people with disabilities as needy, as not
having particular theological insights or, or see pro problematizing them.
Seeing them more in terms of a medical model of disability.
Like, how can we overcome these problems so they can be
included in what we're doing?
That's not what I'm doing at all.
What I'm trying to do is gather insights from different body minds
that are engaging in theology and engaging the Bible, because if you
have to live in a world as an expert life hacker and navigate a world
that's not designed for you, mm-hmm.
You gain many, many insights.
And so the purpose of the center is to.
Amplify those insights to invite people with disabilities into this conversation,
to center their voices, to center their experiences in biblical interpretation,
in theological investigation, and in the concrete practices of ministry.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That's a lot of words and I'm gonna ask you to explain some of them.
But the first big question is, are you a priest?
Ben Connor: Not a priest?
I'm ordained in in a more evangelical tradition.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So
Ben Connor: my primary role is as professor.
Rupert Isaacson: But you are ordained,
Ben Connor: but I
Rupert Isaacson: am ordained.
Okay.
So here's where I'd like to begin.
And then I want to branch out into the work you're actually doing.
Why in the USA is the idea of being an environmentalist.
Counter or opposed to being Christian in the general context.
Ben Connor: Right.
So I do think it's based in poor interpretations of our scripture.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Ben Connor: And in a close relationship between a western enlightenment,
individualistic worldview, and the way that Christianity in America came to be.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
Let's talk about how Christianity in America came to be.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
So, it's, it's a frontier.
The, the frontier movement, the individualism, the, the problem solving.
All of that got mapped onto expressions of Christianity United States.
And while on the one hand you had a separation between church and state
that was supposed to protect each from each other, allow, allow religion to
flourish and, and, and this sort of thing.
So you can't, like if you wanted to disestablish religion in the
United States, where do you look?
Since it's not legally established, you can't disestablish it.
Instead, the way that it's been established is it's been more culturally
established through values and blue laws.
And if you're gonna be a president, then you better say you're a Christian.
These sorts of things.
So politics, cultural values, all these sorts of things mixed to create a kind
of Christianity that sees that when it reads dominion in the Bible, thinks
of dominion as dominance or control.
And, and it's, it's part of the larger enlightenment project that begins
with, I think therefore I am of mastery of control, of use, of othering.
And it, it starts with dominating land, dominating the people who are on the land.
And the Christians in the United States were you know, there were
people on both sides, but the power was more complicit with that movement.
And so then you have a mis oriented notion of dominion that isn't all
reflective of their own scriptures that talk about there's a verse here
and there, but you can do anything with a verse here or there, I mean.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I mean, I, I could make all kind of ridiculous claims that
would then be called biblical.
'cause I can attach a verse to it.
But the large arc of it is that it's supposed to be oriented by
a different kind of relationship with creation and stewardship
is a better idea than dominance.
Even the dominion that's supposed to be expressed is supposed to be one that
leads to the flourishing of everything.
And if everything's not flourishing, then nothing's flourishing.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
I mean, presumably if one's, you know, I also get that, I get that
America started, at least Protestant America started with pilgrims.
Pilgrim fathers, but pilgrim fathers were actually religious extremists
who were kicked out of England at, they were actually in the clink jail
in London before they were put on the boat, the Mayflower, to be sent because
they were, they were troublesome.
And we had just had a civil war in the UK where they've cut the king's head off.
No, sorry.
We, we were about to, we hadn't yet had it.
And so the, the, these puritan extremists who were reflecting, you know, some of the
extremism that led to these cataclysmic wars of religion that we had in Europe
in the 17th century were like packed on boats and said, all right, lads, off
you go over there and good luck to you.
And of course, they made it, and people have heard of like the Salem Witch trials
and people have heard of that sort of thing, but they, you know, landed in New
England and walked around being unpleasant and puritan to everybody, including
themselves and sort of established.
That tradition a little bit, and we get that.
But given that that's 400 years ago, and given that okay, then
you had other things going on.
You had slavery, you had genocides of the Native Americans and
so on and manifest destiny.
This idea in the 19th century of progress, commercial progress with
Christianity getting mixed up.
I do understand all that, but yet it didn't, it didn't seem to that there
were other parts of the world that were colonized where that kind of wholesale
assault on the land and on nature didn't become the dominant culture.
I'm thinking about my own family, for example, in, in South Africa
who were, I mean, were not dissimilar roots in many ways.
They were, you know, very puritan.
Christians on the Dutch side who formed the Dutch Reformed Church, which is
one of only two churches in the world that were formed specifically to
justify, you know, bad institutionalized racism, one of which being the
Dutch Reform Church in South Africa.
The other one being you know, the Southern Baptist Church in in, in the USA.
But yet those ancestors of mine in South Africa did take a stewardship line and
I guess they couldn't take a genocidal.
There was no slavery, there was colonizing, there was no, they
couldn't take a genocidal line, I think because there, there were
always more of the local people than there were of the white settlers.
So you, you couldn't have done it if you tried.
There just were not the millions and millions and millions of people
coming into Africa that there were coming across the Atlantic.
But then we look north at Canada, say.
And we don't see Christianity being quite, so,
what's the word?
Manipulated into something as it's not that they didn't assault nature, but not
perhaps to the same degree they did do genocides, but they didn't have slavery.
Then you look at Mexico and you go, well, they're pretty, you know, that's
pretty messed up down there, but you see it through a Catholic lens, and
again, not, not maybe this same sort of idea that to be Christian means paving
the entire continent from C to C with a McDonald's every 200 meters, and if
you do that, you're doing God's work.
And that's sort of where it's ended up with a lot of Christians in America.
That still puzzles me, even though I understand that historical
process that you've outlined.
Ben Connor: Right.
Well, there are a couple other theological biblical factors that
shape this understanding as well.
So one is this expansionism the desire to manipulate, control and create
moved by a vision that through progress eventually the world's gonna be so
great through our technology progress, ingenuity and faith that Jesus is
just gonna come down and join us.
Right?
That's one sort of in time sort of view, an eschatological view, but then
other sorts of things happen as well.
So, so the first one is this dominion, a mis oriented dominion,
which we've just talked about.
Another theological sort of also enlightenment mindset that impacts the way
Christianity's expressed in some pockets in the US is this drive to differentiate
ourselves from other creatures.
Not just differentiate ourselves, but say that we're superior somehow.
So we're taking this whole chain of being thing, mapping it into Christian
theology and then saying that and it makes sense 'cause the Bible is a
book about humans perception of God.
So it's a very anthropocentric book, right?
But then, and so you go to these early Genesis accounts and it seems
like the whole world's there for you.
And then you gotta say, well, how am I different?
Well, I'm created in the image of God.
What does it mean that I'm created in the image of God and animals aren't?
So we try to figure out what is this thing that makes us in the image of
God and differential ourselves from the rest of creation to say that we're
superior and we have the right to use them, use creation, animals, and
land to invest in this project that we think that we're called to do.
And so that's a, so there's another mindset.
This drive to differentiate ourselves means that you can't look at a.
You know, now, now we're getting, we're getting things from science
now that are challenging how, how we choose to differentiate ourselves.
We say, oh, well we have rational minds and we can create tools.
And then you find out that a crow can create a tool.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Ben Connor: then we have this kind of empathy.
And then you learn more about pigs, you know, and we have
these parenting instincts.
And you learn about pods of dolphins.
And we're like, okay.
Every time we try to differentiate ourselves, right.
We have a posable thumbs
Rupert Isaacson: and then you look at a raccoon.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: Right?
And so, yeah.
So then we start to say, well, you know how, I think a better, a better
idea is, is to think how animals in, in relationship with animals, how
it's not a kingdom where we're the kings in charge of everything, but
it's a kinship relationship where we're related to everything and,
and perhaps the thing that makes us different is more about a responsibility
we have than a capacity we have.
'cause we start to think about the capacities.
Not only do we differentiate ourselves from animals, we differentiate
ourselves from other humans, and then we value these humans less as well.
So this was the thesis of a book called Beasts of Burden by Sonara
Taylor, who growing up had.
Followed these chicken trucks, these awful farmed chickens with feathers flying
behind her was trying to make sense of how, how is this these farmed, the, the
way the animals, these industrial farming, the implications for the environment, the
implications for the chickens themselves, the implications for the workers.
And she saw that her own disability, you know, she can be cast as
less than, because we do the same thing with the animals and we
do the same thing with the land.
So this drive to differentiate ourselves from creatures, what we've really done
is disconnect ourselves from nature.
And the biophilia hypothesis suggests that we were formed in who we are
as humans alongside of nature.
What's the
Rupert Isaacson: biophilia hypothesis?
What is that?
This
Ben Connor: is by Ed Edward Wilson wrote that I.
That we have an innate connection or love for living things or
for nature, how can we not,
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, we're, we're a part of it, right?
Ben Connor: And that's what he says.
Like this, this whole network of conversation going between
trees and mushrooms also has connections with our bodies.
Mm-hmm.
We've just lost touch with it and we've tried to separate ourselves
from it, control it, dominate it.
And in the, in, in the process, we've disconnected ourselves from our own lives.
So, so this drive to differentiate didn't just differentiate us from animals, it
differentiated us from ourselves, from each other, from the land, from creation,
and didn't actually answer the question of what makes us different from animals.
So maybe we should talk more about what makes us the same.
So that's a second theological move that, that's, that's feeding
this in the United States.
And there's one more.
Okay.
You wanna hear
Rupert Isaacson: that?
Ask a question.
Well, just, just quickly.
Yeah.
Is there, is there a movement within Christianity about.
Why are we the same as animals?
Oh, yeah,
Ben Connor: there is.
There is.
There's, there's there's a, you've heard of it.
Wonderful book.
There's a book by David Clef, C-L-O-U-G-H, David Clef, who's
now at Aberdeen, like Clough,
Rupert Isaacson: C-L-O-U-U-G-H-U-G-H, yeah.
Ben Connor: Clef,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Ben Connor: And he wrote a book called Creaturely Theology, which
starts with any theology you do.
It needs to start with your commonality with the rest of the world as a creature.
Rupert Isaacson: This almost sounds like Celtic Christianity,
druidic Christianity, or so
Ben Connor: well there.
Yeah.
You could say that that kind of Christianity is very different
from Roman Christianity because of the conversation partners.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Ben Connor: And, and so that's another problem with, with Christianity,
is people want to think that their expression is a final expression and
then sort of use that colonizing mindset,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Ben Connor: And so evangelism becomes, you become like me, whereas it should
be an expansion of our understanding of that, which we all share.
So every cultural boundary you cra cross brings new riches and insights into this
Christianity that we claim to share.
So would
Rupert Isaacson: you ca, would you classify yourself as an evangelist?
Ben Connor: If I get to define what it is.
Okay.
Because my experience with evangelists is, is is it's techniques that
were used to manipulate people into saying certain magic words.
That means they're in instead of out.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Ben Connor: I don't think that has anything to do with what the
historical figure of Jesus was doing or the early church was doing.
That was more a proclamation about what it means to live in this world in a different
kind of a way that's, that's challenging power, that's caring for the poor,
that is, is caring for the sick that is involved in harmony, flourishing in life.
So then my evangelism in that sense is a doing, a being and a saying.
It's, it's the way that I serve the world.
When, when did I see you in and when did I visit you in prison and when did I give
you clothes and when did I give you food?
Was the question that was asked in this sheep and the goat's
parable of, of Jesus, right?
He said, whenever you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me.
And so this kind of service is one way that I evangelize.
So there's a, there's a doing, there's a being.
What kind of communities am I creating and how I, how do they include
the gifts of other people that are marginalized in other settings?
That's a kind of community.
So there's a, a being of evangelism and then there's a saying.
Sometimes you give explanation verbally to, to what's going on,
but that's usually the last resort for me, for my, but you and I both
Rupert Isaacson: know that that's not, that's it sounds wonderful, but you,
you and I both know that's not how evangelism is usually presents itself.
Right?
It it
Ben Connor: exactly.
And, and fortunately I'm teaching course you're gonna go to
Rupert Isaacson: hell unless you abide by these rules and this big blowup there with
a beer's gonna give you a spank bottom and send you to the place where the.
Chaps of the pointy heads will stick you with pointy things.
Ben Connor: So let's tie that understanding of evangelism
to the third movement.
Okay.
So we have this dominion issue where we've gotten dominion wrong.
We have the drive to div differentiate ourselves from animals and creation
where we actually separate ourselves from ourselves and from our world.
You just said we've gotten
Rupert Isaacson: dominion wrong.
That really excites me and I want to return to that later.
Okay?
Ben Connor: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, I didn't mean to.
Ben Connor: So there's dominion drive to differentiate.
The last one fits right into that kind of evangelism.
What happens in that kind of evangelism?
We save your soul from a world that's gonna burn.
I collect bumper stickers just for fun about that kind of evangelism.
And it's like when the last trumpet sounds, I'm outta here.
And it's like flames coming up.
And it's like, if you think you're right, you know you better be right.
Or smoking or non-smoking, like eternity smoking or non-smoking.
People think they're so clever with these bumper stickers.
But all they're doing really is offending people.
I can't imagine anyone who's ever had their mind changed by a bumper sticker.
So what is that viewpoint?
Well, it's this, that, that creation and animals are just a dramatic backdrop.
Even our bodies, our dramatic backdrop to a transaction that
goes on between our soul and God.
And it's a really escapist kind of understanding.
So now you have another theological de-motivation to
be invested in this world.
'cause this world's temporary, this world's gonna be destroyed.
And so let's save souls.
So they have soul winners, bibles, and people are seeing
how many souls they can save.
Well what in the world's a soul, aside from like, dig down into me, where is it?
You know, like it is it so spirit.
My my point is that if you wanna find the most spiritual thing,
really get to know another person.
'cause God is, is in there.
If, if, yeah.
So theologically speaking, if God wants to demonstrate love, then God
takes on human flesh and has to live in under the contingency that we live in.
And what does he do?
He crosses boundaries.
He goes to, to where lepers are.
He, he invites the tax collector nobody likes.
He, he hangs around with women and gives them credibility to their testimony.
He, you know, all these sorts of things.
So you have
Rupert Isaacson: all good ways to get yourself crucified, basically.
Yeah,
Ben Connor: exactly.
Especially when your followers start saying your Lord, in a world
where the Roman imperial coins make that very claim about their rulers.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
What's what's interesting with that?
Okay, so that, there's just a bunch of things there.
One is that one, one of the as you know, people who interpret, old Testament stuff
and Book of Revelation and the rapture and all of that, which is very much the
sort of American punishment based, you know, idea of Christianity and talking
about sort of Christ and antichrist.
And I've often thought that in the book of Revelation where it says the antichrist
is gonna come along, I say, was that one person or was that the sort of collective?
And it seems that there's an awful lot of talk by people who espouse
themselves to be Christians, talking about highly unchristian things like
my right to have automatic weapons or my right to be just a dick to people
or to be hostile in whatever way.
That's antichrist, that's anti ethical to Christ.
That's antichrist.
And.
So I've often thought, oh, I see the antichrist is this espousing of antichrist
beliefs under the banner of Christ.
Okay, that makes sense.
And now of course it's, this is not the first generation in which that's happened,
and that's been going on, you know, ever since Christianity became a, you
know, a look at the Spanish Inquisition.
But nonetheless, we sort of ought to be past that now and perhaps are, you
know, so it's exciting to me when you say
that within the evangelical, which I, I, I have experienced as punishment based,
basically join our club or you'll get a hell, and saving souls or getting souls.
The only other person I ever know who seems to go out to
get souls seems to be Satan.
You know, they, they was talking about the devil went down to Georgia.
He was looking for soulless steel.
He was in a bag.
He was way behind.
He was willing to make a deal.
He seemed quite motivated to get souls right.
Presumably God can look after souls.
And, and here's full disclosure.
I'm a full on card carrying for, for listeners too.
I'm a full on card carrying believer in God.
I believe in God.
I so believe in God.
I cannot tell you who God is or what God is.
I wouldn't presume to be able to do that, but somewhere within me, there's
never been any, never been any question.
But God is not somebody who creates.
People in order to cast them into a fiery pit because that would be God
as a sort of petulant 12-year-old.
Well if you
Ben Connor: do that, look how much control that gives you if you do it.
Mm.
I mean that all fits into the same thing of mastery, domination, and control.
So they've taken a, a worldview and created something, you know, they've
taken this category of Christian and filled it with something that allows
them to have power and domination and control to predict Absolutely.
Explain.
Absolutely.
And it
Rupert Isaacson: just becomes Pharisees and a priesthood and, and all of that.
I, I, I get it.
You know, and so it's
Ben Connor: a malformation and I think many Christians then are malformed into
this expression of Christianity that is really incongruent with the Christ that
they claim in their title, in their name.
And
Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if I'm Christian, I dunno if I'm not Christian,
you know, I, I hang out at the Bushman tra fires my, my experiences of God.
Are as much within watching a healer in the Kalahari
use leopard energy to pull a sickness outta somebody as it is
to do something within our culture.
And at the same time, I absolutely think that at the Mystic Center
of all religions is, is, is the sort of same expression of God.
And you find that kind of c nature-based shamanism within
certain types of Christianity.
You, you might find it in c sort of Catholic shamanic overlaid things
down in Central South America.
You might find it in France of Assisi.
You might find it in the Celtic Christian outlook and, and so on.
So the kind
Ben Connor: of Christianity then that you're allergic to is the kind that
asks you to be a cultural apprentice.
It's, it's, you have to become a cultural apprentice.
It's the
Rupert Isaacson: kind that wants to.
Sell off Yellowstone.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
That's what I'm allergic to.
Ben Connor: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That seems the anti anti creation.
Ben Connor: It wants to take indigenous people's holy spaces and name 'em
after prominent American folks.
Right, right.
Well, every, every church
Rupert Isaacson: in, in Europe is built on a Pagan site, but yeah.
No ex exactly.
The desecration of, of nature, the destruct.
So you
Ben Connor: don't have, so they don't have a theological paradigm for engaging it.
So that's what, what's happened in a sense, is those original moves of
the Christian movement sort of stop.
So, I mean, originally it was a Jewish sect, right.
And then it becomes.
Greek.
And when it becomes Greek, it gets the treasure of Greek
philosophical understanding, but then it creates, creates doctrines.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: Right.
That then are exclusive of other people.
And then along with Constantine power, you have the ability,
not just to, to He's de spoiled
Rupert Isaacson: his wife, by the way.
Right.
No,
Ben Connor: this is this.
It's, I'm not, he's not a wonderful figure.
Right.
He the reason there's a Julie in the apostate is because who, who came after
Constantine, who didn't like Christianity at all, and, and put his face on the
coin with a big philosopher's beard to give the Christians the finger and
put astrological signs on the back and said, Rome needs to go back to.
The, the what we were is because Constantine had killed every
potential person who could, you know, challenge him as a Christian emperor.
But what you have then is you have power and Christianity together.
Yeah.
And in order to keep a peaceable kingdom, here's the doctrine
that we are gonna agree on.
So there aren't these factions,
Rupert Isaacson: ene Christianity, Catholic, right.
Orthodox, which,
Ben Connor: and here we go to our problem with creation, ene
Christianity is responding to the question of the salvation of humans.
Not the broader biblical narrative about the restoration of the world.
That all of creation is groaning to be redeemed.
That that according to their own scripture, Christ took on
flesh, not just humanity, but took on all flesh and redeems it.
All that all things come together in Christ.
So that, that is supposed to be the Christian message, but ene
Christianity is all about the salvation of individuals where you're
gonna have fights over an iota.
Homo states, you know, homo us, Ian, people get excommunicated.
Now you have power.
You could actually kill 'em if they have a different view,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Ben Connor: And so there's, there's, so we, we have that in the US that
it's of benefit to be a Christian.
That it gives you a certain kind of power.
And, and the theological questions that were asked, in the exception of
Christianity, were about the salvation of the human and not about the restoration
and redemption of all of creation.
And we just really haven't developed much since then.
But there have always been people who speak against that.
You mentioned Francis of assi, but even contemporarily.
There was Pope Francis who just passed away, wrote a beautiful
piece on creation and theology.
There's a book by Victoria lores called church of the Wild.
That's about wild Christianity.
There's Thomas Berry, a Catholic.
He called himself a Biolog Biolog.
Rupert Isaacson: So
Ben Connor: he
Rupert Isaacson: is.
Love that.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But where are these people?
Why don't we hear about them?
Why are you the first person telling us about it?
Ben Connor: Well, I'm the first person telling you, you know, I yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: but come on.
I mean,
Ben Connor: yeah.
It's, it's not a, it's not, it's not a center movement
Rupert Isaacson: is what, it's a peripheral movement and why, isn't it?
Or, or is it going to become one?
Ben Connor: Well, in part it's a giving up of power and
nobody likes to give up power.
Mm-hmm.
It's a distribution of power.
It's an equaling of people.
It's it's, it's costly.
It, it requires thinking about what you eat.
It requires, you know, it, it's just not the American way.
It's not about it's not about gaining things and possessing
things and controlling things.
It's about giving that sort of a, a worldview up and committing to a
kind of flourishing that might mean in order for mutual flourishing.
You're standing quite an American
Rupert Isaacson: by this point.
Yeah, yeah,
Ben Connor: yeah.
We'll see.
And to many, I'll sound un-Christian, but that doesn't hurt my feelings either,
Rupert Isaacson: you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you've convinced me that there is a movement.
What's your work with this movement to bring us to an idea
of stewardship rather than.
Effing it all up.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
And I would even say stewardship's a limited term because it suggests that
we have the knowledge and wisdom to, I mean, ha have we done more good or more
harm for the earth than even in the stewardship things we've tried to do?
I don't know.
Right.
Yeah.
To some degree, stewardships is a, is an, is an arrogant position that
doesn't recognize our limited knowledge base and doesn't draw upon knowledge.
Well, there's knowledge
Rupert Isaacson: is human.
Right,
Ben Connor: right, right.
Yeah.
And, and again, here, going back to scripture and Job, one of the
amazing verses when Job is trying to make sense of what's going on
with his life is God's response.
Ask the beasts and they'll tell you, ask the birds of the air and they'll tell
you, and we've broken this conversation.
We've, we've, we're only talking to ourselves as Thomas Berry,
this Catholic theologian.
He says, we we're not talk, we're not listening to the rivers.
We're not listening to the animals, to the plants.
We're only talking to ourselves.
We've, we have a, we've lost the wisdom of the, of the land.
Where's Thomas Berry based?
Oh, I don't know.
You can find his I don't, I think he's passed away recently.
Sacred Universe.
The Sacred Universe and Evening Sacred Universe.
That's one of his brilliant books.
Was he, was he
Rupert Isaacson: American?
Was he British?
Where's he from?
I think he's a us Catholic.
Was he Barry with an IE or A-Y-B-E-R-R-Y.
Thomas Barry, the Sacred Universe Theologian.
Got, okay.
Gotta check it out.
Sounds like I won't be able to have him on the show.
You're gonna have to interpret him for me.
Okay.
Well, that,
Ben Connor: so this is, that, that's a, where people are talking about it though.
Matthew Scully wrote a book on Dominion where he's challenging
this whole notion of dominion.
It's called Matthew Scully, S-C-U-L-L-Y.
Okay.
Matthew Scully.
Dominion.
Rupert Isaacson: Dominion.
Okay.
And
Ben Connor: one of the things he says right at the start of the book is this.
He says, when you look at a rabbit and you can see only a pest or vermin, or a meal,
or a commodity, or a laboratory subject, you aren't seeing the rabbit anymore.
You're seeing only yourself and the schemes and appetites
you bring to the world.
Wow.
And that's what Dominion is.
It's the schemes and appetites we bring to the world.
We've broken the conversation.
We like the idea of kingdom, and we like to think we take on the kingly
role and then we're no longer kin.
We're not in a kinship relationship with all of creation.
So how do I bridge the gap between my inherited Christianity and the vision
that I wanna point people towards?
Right.
A couple of ways.
Okay.
One is Christian Indigenous Americans and Indigenous American Christians
who have a whole different paradigm.
When they read scriptures and when they come to faith, that critiques
the one that they've inherited.
In other words, through their scripture and their reading, now they have an
independent standard by which they can critique the colonizer's Christianity.
And how do they critique it?
Well, they critique it as people who live on Turtle Island, whose mythology
is filled with animals in wise roles.
They critique it as people who, when they, they read they read the Bible,
it's a worldview that makes more sense to them than a, a modern enlightenment
worldview where there are spirits and angels and, and energies and animals who
are deeply involved in, in the telling of these stories and in the redemption.
So, one gentleman in particular, Randy Woodley, he talked to
he, he, he interviewed Randy
Rupert Isaacson: Woodley.
Ben Connor: Woodley, W-O-O-D-L-Y, Randy Woodley.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Ben Connor: And I don't remember his tribe, but he talked to many
different tribes and he found something they all have in common.
He called the harmony way.
He calls it the Harmony Way.
And it's a way of being in the world that's not so competitive, that sees
the wisdom of animals that doesn't try to manipulate and control and,
and it's, it's just a such a different sort of kinship worldview to the
modern enlightenment worldview that's informed American Christianity.
That I would say it's almost a different Christianity that's more faithful to the
biblical vision of shalom, shalom, peace, harmony, wellbeing, this sort of thing.
So conversation partners like Randy Woodley I'm looking
up right here at my shelf.
If I can find my glasses, and I have like three different pairs of glasses,
depending on how far away something is.
We have becoming kin by Patty RAIC.
We have restoring the kinship view by four arrows and another author.
So these indigenous worldviews, these ways of understanding how are we
supposed to be in the world then is, is informs their Christian expression.
Right?
And that's the same move that happened when Christianity became a Jewish.
It went from a Jewish sect to include Jewish, to include Greek people and then
the treasures of Greek philosophy come in and have problems, but also things.
And then it goes to the Germanic people and those, and it goes to, you know,
when Christianity goes to Africa.
Particularly Sub-Saharan Africa, you have a critique of colonizing Christianity by
African indigenous churches that didn't wanna give up an African worldview.
That doesn't start with the Cartesian, I think therefore I am,
but starts more with like an muntu, which is we are, therefore I am.
So it's a more communal understanding of self than an individualistic one.
And okay.
Okay.
Now
Rupert Isaacson: something I go to with that is again, because my family's
Southern African, because a lot of these cultures that you've include, and also
I'm half Jewish, so Jewish culture, a lot of Southern African culture, you're
still talking about agricultural, post agricultural and herding cultures
that are effectively warrior cultures.
I.
With the same hierarchical systems and endless cycles of blood feud,
warfare, atrocity for, for horsemen of the apocalypse up and being very
happy to colonize each other when they're not the ones being colonized.
You know, the Zulus, the Ani, the Dani, which was the, you know, the Zulus in
South Africa, colonizing everybody else around them until they ran up against
the, the, the buzz and the British who then colonized them you know, west Africa.
Lots of colonization going on there, you know, within that subcontinent.
The Germanic tribes colonizing within Europe before they
went on blah, blah, blah.
The Romans obviously, and then, you know, second Temple Judaism
by no means a nature based thing.
You know, by then.
You know, Judaism having gone from, you know, way back, pre bronze age,
a polytheistic thing to eventually, you know, Yahweh and his wife to
Yahweh, to some semblance of what we now know to, you know, a, a, a sect
that becomes Christian much later on.
But by the time that happens, of course, you know that, you know that, that
the empire building colonizing people, they just happen to run up against the
Romans, you know, who were just better at it, you know, for whatever reason.
So we're all the same
dysfunctional, yeah.
Creation, destroying people except for the non-war tribes, the non-war
people, the hunter gatherers.
And, you know, we seem to have this at the beginning of the Bible,
don't we, with Cain and Abel, you know, Cain is the farmer.
Kills his brother Abel, who seems to be with the beast of the field, the hunting
gatherer, classic thing, you know, the hunt, the farmers can't tolerate free
moving people going across the land.
They can't tolerate free moving animals going across the land.
So we end up with a parable.
It seems a, a metaphor within story.
You know, Cain and Abel, blah, blah, blah.
And then the, the mark of Cain, the curse of Cain being that he wanders forever.
Well, of course, what do farmers have to do?
They exhaust the land or they have lots and lots of kids because you need
lots and lots of kids to put the crop in the soil and bring the crop out.
So you can only pass the land onto the oldest son.
So everyone else has to go out and colonize somewhere else and
mess everyone else's lives up.
You know, this is the curse, blah, blah, blah.
It keeps going.
We know this
and yes, of course evangelical American Christianity is one of the many
expressions of this, but so are some of the expressions of Christianity in Africa
or, you know, other parts of the world.
And I've always, I've never seen like the, the problem with the
idea of say evolution and God.
It's like, well, why wouldn't an intelligent God de design something as
amazing as, you know, as, as evolution?
I don't see that as being in any way contradictory, you know, Darwin himself
as a Christian, blah, blah, blah.
Okay, but what do we do with it all?
The, the, the most functional people I've ever met on the planet were son
Bushman, non-Christians, who many Christians I know would say are damned
who yet lived live a, a, a very Christ-like existence, both in terms
of how they relate to each other, how they relate to outsiders, and
how they relate to the planet.
Given that Christianity comes out of Second Temple Judaism, which is by
no means an environmental movement,
how do we go back to Abel?
How do we sort of leapfrog back over Cain and go back to
Abel and keep our Christ thing?
I think I could answer that question, but I kind of want to hear it from you.
This is intriguing to me and it's also intriguing to me that this environmental
movement, by the way, within Christianity, I've not heard it out the uk.
I've not heard it out of Africa either, so it's, it seems to be very
fitting that it comes out of the USA.
Who are the people with the Christians who are kind of messing it up the most?
Well, America land of extremes.
Okay.
You're gonna find people like you.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
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Can you explain to me then.
No, can you, can you fantasize to me Go ahead.
20 years.
A hundred years in your mind, what's coming out of Christian America and
how do we turn it all around for the benefit of our planet and ourselves?
Ben Connor: Yeah, I think it starts a couple of ways.
Deb Rera there's another name for you, wrote a book called Ugia Ugia,
and she talks about a ugia faith.
But the way the book starts is when Mount St.
Helen's exploded, everything's covered with ash.
Everything looks like death, but under the logs.
And under the rocks there's life and these are spaces of Ugia and
it's grown back vibrant and lush.
And she says we need to have the same kind of thing in our Christianity,
in a sense and a Christianity that is exactly as you explained it.
There are these pockets, ofia.
So I think if we, if we set up these pockets
Rupert Isaacson: called Refugia, I love it.
Okay.
Ugia?
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Yeah.
You'd love to talk with Deb and Ron sra, actually, they'd
be wonderful guests for you.
Okay.
Keep
Rupert Isaacson: going.
Ben Connor: So, so it's a, it's a place of growth.
It's a place of, you know, of, of regrounding, of of moving forward,
of life among what seems like death.
And so then in my mind, I'm trying to create places of ugia within the church.
And so this goes to one project I'm on right now.
Okay.
And I think the place to start is with the children.
You know, Malaguzzi wrote that children have 100 languages
and we take away 99 of them.
In other words children communicate so many ways.
Everything's a language, everything's a world.
They're filled with wonder, in part because.
They're not captive to their rational capacities and trying
to name, explain control.
They know they don't know things.
And, and as a result, they go into spaces with a kind of curiosity and they find
a sense of connection, a sense of awe, a sense of wonder, humility and humility,
and also a sense of lament and humility.
This is a place to start, right?
So if we can start in the church with our children, connecting them to nature
as a theological conversation partner that's really not been listened to the
same way since the printing press, I would say particularly in the us it's
like this movement to give everybody a bible, everybody, seven or eight Bibles.
This sounds, I mean, this is something that you don't wanna, it'd be if
I say this in a church or I say it at a seminary, it's gonna be, I'm
really gonna get pushed back against.
But why are we creating more Bibles?
And why are we taking about this?
What's that doing to the environment?
It's a, because we're so word centered that now the Bible instead
of something that, that a community.
That was the word and the word was
Rupert Isaacson: God.
Logos.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
So I mean, the Bible didn't even come into being so people could have it.
For most of Christianity, you are a church that had maybe one letter from Paul or
Luke Acts and another church had more.
Mm-hmm.
And when you met together, it'd be read.
But the most important thing was your, your way of life in the world.
How, what's your way of life in the world?
But post printing press match that with Cartesian individualism and our
tendency towards mastering control.
Now everybody has their own Bible.
Everybody's their own hope.
Everybody's their own church to some degree.
But this movement then what becomes squelched is God's voice in nature and the
way we've organized our societies, make us less and less connected to this world.
You know, we have conditioned environments and even within the churches,
then you try to replicate things.
A vault that goes to the heavens, well just step outside and look up, right?
I, I was at this real, I was at a, at a camp once, and they took everybody
from the camp inside a room and started saying, now imagine, you know, Jesus is
there and Peter's walking on the water.
Imagine a lake.
I'm like, we were just outside.
There was a lake.
You know, go out to the lake.
Why do we feel like we can't gain this wisdom?
It's because it's about control.
These wrong interpretations are dangerous.
There's, but you know, anyways, the point being, yeah, I want you
to pay, let's start with children.
Pay me
Rupert Isaacson: five.
If I want you to pay me money, then I've got to Yeah.
Get you in a room and brainwash you.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ben Connor: So let's start with the children and let's teach the adults a new
language through the eyes of children.
So you learn that.
So let's start with the assumption that children are theological creatures,
that children have a connection to God, that God loves children, and
that God's communicating to them in a way that they understand.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Well, that
Ben Connor: makes the Bible secondary.
Rupert Isaacson: True.
You know, it does, it
Ben Connor: doesn't mean that the Bible's unimportant, but for
children, it makes it secondary.
What's the most important thing is the encounter they have with
the divine through creation.
So let's learn the many languages of children and of
children with disabilities.
So, we actually got a grant from the Lilly Foundation to do this.
And the first thing we did is three orientations for all the adults around
disability theory, disability, theology, theology of children, children as
spiritual beings, children as learning children as curious, a theology of
wonder these sorts of things and a theology of nature and creatures.
And, and so we, we, we prepared them and then we had six weeks
where for four hours on a Sunday, we just followed the children.
We followed them to see birds and, and put their arms out and see what kind
of bird they are, and to hold snakes.
Now, this is not snake handling.
I wanna be clear.
That's not the kind of Christianity I'm in.
But just to to enjoy and appreciate creation, to play in the words, to create
environments to, to, what's gonna change?
The church is not a doctrine about how we should treat creatures.
What's gonna change the church is a generation of people who are in love with
the world that God created and see it as enchanted, that expect to encounter
God when they're next to a horse.
Expect to encounter God in the beautiful music of a stream.
The holiest place I have is the pond behind my house where I have windy the
willow tree dancing, watching me as I'm inside the pond, pulling out the algae,
surrounded by a halo of fish who snap up everything I loosen where ducks come
along the side and watch what I'm doing curiously, and let the red wing blackbird
know I'm not coming for their nest.
So you don't have to dive bomb his head.
He's okay.
You know.
And the Oculus I have.
Isn't in a dark room, a little hole that says God's present.
It's the whole sky, you know?
And the baptismal waters I have aren't confined to a
fountain, but it's my whole pond.
And I share these baptismal waters with the fish.
So why would I wanna put chemicals in that's gonna hurt them if I
could find a better way to coexist?
Because these fish helped me make it through COVID as I went in federal.
So anyway, this sounds like Harrison.
Oh, absolutely.
I'm good.
Have
Rupert Isaacson: the inquisition shown up at your house yet?
Ben Connor: No.
I'm sure they'll come though.
And, and what a, what better way to go than, than than
trying to enlarge the faith.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, so in terms of pushback I, I, I love what you just
said in, in, in terms of pushback.
What pushback do you get on w working.
With your Center for Disability and Ministry and
looking at the wonder with which children engage in nature or
nature and special needs, you know, your Lily grant it, it would seem
insane to push back against that.
So I'm interested to know what sort of insanities have, have, have arisen.
Ben Connor: Well, you'll be interested to know.
I've received almost no pushback.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Ben Connor: I just think you haven't
Rupert Isaacson: publicized it yet.
Ben Connor: Perhaps.
We'll see how that goes.
I mean, yeah.
You know, I'm working on a book on harmony with horses where I'm promoting these
sort of theological worldviews and, you know, I mean, I'm a published author.
You are too.
You know, once you put something out there, you know.
People are gonna hate it.
People are gonna think you're the worst thing ever.
For me, in my, I wrote a book called disabling Mission, enabling Witness.
And the whole idea of that mission, the way that we practice mission evangelism
is been informed by very ableist biases.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm, good point.
Ben Connor: A certain kinds of communication, right?
So, and so I say to disable in my mind is to take away those ableist biases.
And so that's what I'm trying to my theological project.
You think about
Rupert Isaacson: disarming really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ben Connor: Disabling theological education, that's how the Center for
Disability and Ministry came to be.
And then I wrote you know, disabling mission and, you know, I'm always,
I'm always thinking about that.
How can we, how can we center.
Wisdom that hasn't been at the center.
So how do you center children?
You, you center children's insights, then you engage theology differently.
You, you center your relationship with the horse, you know, then you,
then you see the world differently,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Ben Connor: So the main pushback, the main pushback I get would be that
I'm what would be called a pantheist or a panentheist, which means, which
I'm, I wouldn't say I'm a pantheist, which means everything is God.
God is everything.
That, that wouldn't be where I fit in.
Panentheism says God is in everything.
I don't have a problem with that.
I just don't like the label, you know?
But traditional theism has been so informed by I think sort of, Greek
philosophical categories that, that they've, they've been so entwined.
It's almost like it's the same thing.
So.
So I'm happy to push back against various things and do some constructive
theology and see what happens.
And, and unless you're willing to make some mistakes, you know, it, you
gotta, you gotta go ahead and make some statements to, to stimulate discourse.
Rupert Isaacson: True.
Okay.
So what are the odds that we will see in the next 20 years?
Cons, you know, conservative Christian megachurches in Houston,
going out and planting forests.
I'm hopeful.
Talk to me about that.
Hope take, take me through how that could happen.
Yeah.
Because I would love that to happen.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I think as, as, consequences of the way that we've treated
the environment hit home.
And so, so a lot of the immigration migration is related
to climate issues, right?
A lot of people's homes and, and, and places that they value
have been impacted by this.
A lot of the things they like to eat have been impacted by this.
Once it becomes a personal experience for you, then for many Christians,
that's when you start to ask new and fresh theological questions.
And my hope is by the time they're asking these questions, which I can't
imagine what happened particularly, you know, not to get political, but in this
administration, you're gonna roll back any sort of environmental restraint.
You know, as we see the consequences of this, then even these conservative, these
more conservative congregations will have to start asking new theological questions.
And my hope is that there's a group of resources there that they can
call upon as this, this theological movement, eco theology and biolog and
people who are creating ugia places as they're growing these resources will
become, you know, someone from within their tradition is going to write
something that they're interested in.
Rupert Isaacson: I love it.
I guess what I'm seeing practically is yeah, let's say the children of the people
growing up within that type of church, historically have, I have had two choices.
They, they could either
reject.
And say it is all a load of wan because it kind of is.
And then go off into their lives outside the church or
certainly outside that church.
Ben Connor: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: But still hopefully take some you know, nice things with
them if they could salvage some.
But it's usually been stale.
Go, it's usually been drink the Kool-Aid or escape.
Ben Connor: When they escape, they go a couple ways.
There's something called ex evangelicals.
I don't know if you've ever died again.
Rupert Isaacson: Christians.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: So, yeah.
So instead of evangelicals or ex evangelicals, they're not giving up
the faith, they're just giving up that particular way of understanding it.
Mm-hmm.
And these ex evangelicals are much more connected to issues
around sexuality around dominance.
But again, where are these people?
Rupert Isaacson: I don't hear about them.
I don't meet them.
These evangelicals, where are they?
Ben Connor: They're out there.
They're very much into podcasting.
So you could, you could easily type in ex evangelical and you'll find a lot of 'em.
That's sort of the white, upper middle class way to deal with
your issues in the United States.
Just start a podcast.
Rupert Isaacson: Look at me.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: Well, yeah, me too.
We have a podcast through the center called Disabling the Church.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Disabling the church.
Yeah.
Okay.
I need to start listening to it.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
So that that's one direction they go.
The other direction is, yeah, maybe they give up on calling
themselves Christians, but a pew.
If you, if you look at these pew research sort of interviews about the
state of religion in the United States, you find that even people who say that
they are the nuns, meaning when you check something about your religious
affiliation, you check the category, none.
You keep going down the list.
You find out that they aren't giving up on God and one of the places they feel
most connected to God is in nature.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Ben Connor: And so I, that, that's the path that I'm taking
to get this conversation going.
I don't think I'm gonna change the mind of the diet in the wool American
evangelical of the more conservative ilk.
I think I can work with evangelicals very well and I can work with people
who have left the church but still find God when they walk in Saugatuck
dunes, you know, these sorts of things.
And I can give them some language and I, 'cause they look, this, this
scripture is actually pointing to this kind of thing that you're talking about.
The Christian faith is actually it, it should have the capacity to
speak into this in meaningful ways.
Rupert Isaacson: Well that was going to be my next question actually
was you know, I dunno, scripture, like, you know, scripture I know
little fragments here and there.
Can you give me some choice quotes from Old and New Testament about why
we shouldn't be buggering it all up?
Ben Connor: Yeah.
I mean, one was that from job 12 seven, ask the Beasts and they will teach you
ask the birds of the air and they, they'll show you this, this whole idea that,
that, that there's wisdom in creation and we should connect with the wisdom.
You go to some of the Psalms and so the problem, okay, so we're, we're
oriented in scripture by the creation accounts in, in Genesis, the beginning
of Genesis, which seems to make the point that everything's made.
Then you make humans.
Now it's very good and your job is to have dominion over it, right?
But then you read in a creation in the Psalms where it talks about the
creation and it says the hills are made for the Cooney and the deep
is made for the beasts of the sea.
Almost like humans aren't even in mind for this.
You know, the idea that animals have a connection with God without us.
If you want to know anything about that, you better hope
they're around to tell you.
So you wanna preserve their environment and you wanna learn
how to, you wanna learn about 'em, you wanna draw on the sciences.
So as I think about horses, 'cause you had my wife Melissa,
I think on a different podcast
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
The, the Equine Assisted World podcast.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: And so she runs renew Therapeutic Riding Center.
And one of the things we're working on is how do Christians think
about horses as having a vocation?
A call.
Yeah.
Okay.
So vocation.
So vocation is right to Ari's a podcast in
Rupert Isaacson: itself.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
So in Christianity, the view is you've been called to follow.
And when we think of vocation, we think of the big noun.
What's the thing I'm gonna do when I grow up?
So we're anxious all the way through high school.
What are we gonna be?
And then we don't know who we are after retirement 'cause we
don't know anymore who we are now 'cause we don't have the job.
But Kathleen Cahalan says, instead of talking about vocation as a
noun, we should talk about it in terms of prepositions, I'm called
alongside, I'm called through, I'm called into, I'm called out of.
Mm-hmm.
We have many different callings.
So I'm called as a professor.
I'm called as a as a grant writer.
I'm called as a husband.
I'm called as a father.
I'm also called into relationship with my dogs.
I'm called into relationship with silk of the horse and we start thinking.
Wouldn't people think differently of animals?
If instead of saying this is a tool that you use for services that
you thought of as animal as having a vocation, a calling from God.
Well, vocation is also about being able to use your voice.
Voice and vocation.
I've amplified my voice in different settings.
How does a course have a voice?
How does a horse have agency?
In order to understand this, we need to learn how to communicate with a horse.
So we have to draw on Stephen Peters and Martin Black and all the people
who've done this horse head, human head.
I forget who wrote that, Jane something.
Horse,
Rupert Isaacson: brain, human brain.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Horse,
Ben Connor: brain.
Human brain.
Yeah.
But so now you're learning, you're, you're looking at the horse differently.
You're saying, this horse needs to have a voice.
I need to learn how to listen to the voice of the horse.
If the horse isn't flourishing, the horse isn't in a vocation, so we
can't do anything that's of benefit to a student that's not in line with
the vocation or calling of the horse.
So there's mutual flourishing.
How do we organize our center?
How do we feed horses?
How do we turn them out?
How do we turn pastures?
How do we allow them the time to get used to an environment before they go in it?
How do we, you know, do we know that the horse, if this chair's in different place,
it's not a chair, it might be a lion.
Now, I, you know, all those weird things about horses that Melissa could tell you
all about, but horses have a vocation.
They have a voice.
We just have to learn how to hear their voice.
'cause it's usually a nonverbal voice.
It's ear postural.
It's, it's, it's the tension of the muzzle.
It's the what the hind end is doing.
It's, it's what the tail's doing.
It's all, it's what the, how, how the eyes are, or the eyes soft.
Or the eyes dead, you know?
Yes, the horse is doing the thing, but the horse is getting no enjoyment.
Yeah.
All, all these sorts of things are for the vocation of the horse.
Now, this is a, it's a, it's a creature that we invite to share a vocation
with us, but the horse can say no.
And we have to listen to the horse to know when the horse is saying
no, I have a different vocation.
So swing because of trauma related to being a polo horse, is never gonna
be a good therapeutic riding horse because of all the, you know, unless
you desensitize swing and take all the joy out of his life and make him
an ottoman, that au ottoman that just walks around the arena, loping around
carrying somebody that's not swing's, vocation, but swing is very good at
being a pasture friend to another horse.
Rupert Isaacson: If we then go from horses to mountains, rivers,
ecosystems.
Ben Connor: Alright.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me about mountains, rivers, and ecosystems.
Having vocations.
Ben Connor: So mountains have been around a lot longer than we have.
I don't think we have the patience to listen to a mountain or the
lifespan to listen to a mountain.
Our, our, our our listening is, is, is is this big mountains
listening is generations and generations and generations.
But I, I do believe that, that mountains have vocations other than being blown
up with dynamite to hold images of presidents or images of civil War
heroes or, or anything like that,
Rupert Isaacson: or, or coal mine.
Yeah.
Ben Connor: And I think the people who were closer to the vocation of
these mountains were the indigenous people whose livelihood were tied
to the mountains, whose mythologies were connected to the mountains.
I think, I think bodies of water have a lot to say to us, but were, were
putting chemicals in their throats.
We're putting runoff from fertilizers in their throats.
We're we're putting plastic in their throats.
We're taking all the life of the ecosystems outta their throats and
we're starting to hear their voice again when we participate in reef,
you know, helping reefs to grow back.
And when we have responsible ways of fishing, instead of just huge nets
that pull up everything or sharks that are just harvested for their fins
or whales that are just harvested.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, when we just stop behaving abusively, basically.
Ben Connor: Yeah, so I, so here's the thing.
This goes to vocation.
The vocation of a horse is to be a horse.
That's it.
And a horse doesn't mess up.
Its vocation.
But humans can mess up the horse's vocation.
And the vocation of a mountain is to be a mountain.
And mountains don't mess up the vocation, but humans can get
in the way of their vocation.
Rupert Isaacson: What's a human's vocation then?
Ben Connor: This is the key.
Can we mess that up?
Yes.
A human's vocation is to be a human, but we suck at it.
We wanna dominate and control other humans.
What is being a human
Rupert Isaacson: dominant?
What is being a human?
Ben Connor: So now you're into something from a Christian standpoint that's
called theological anthropology, right?
So anthropology is just the study of humans and human
cultures and humans in the world.
Theological anthropology adds another layer.
What does it mean to be a human before God?
And so, a theological anthropology before
Rupert Isaacson: Christ.
Ben Connor: Before Christ.
Yeah.
And so, so Christ, Jesus Christ from a Christian standpoint, you would say, then
lived out the human vocation properly and what it result in his death, because
it's in a world that's not oriented towards living in a human vocation.
It's in, well, I meant
Rupert Isaacson: in the Kalahari at the same time in which you
were behaving in a Christlike way and getting along just fine.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so, okay, so,
Ben Connor: so, so then a, a human vocation then is to be a, a human, which
means there's, there's a, a, a calling to bear witness to the goodness of God.
That's in everything, to, to treat all of creation as kin, to treat all
people in ways that with dignity.
And so the human creation is to live into this vision.
Of the kingdom of God that's already breaking into the present in little ways.
And, and these little ways are, are for example,
I talked about Julian, the apostate.
It's never good if your, your, your name has the apostate after it typically.
But so Julian, the apostate, I understand where he is coming from, considering
his family was killed by Constantine.
That's that I understand that he wanted to bring the, the Greek
culture back to the center.
Yeah.
Clintonism, yeah.
Animating.
Right, right.
And so at, at one point though, when plagues broke out what
do you do in that culture?
If someone's sick, you get 'em out.
Right?
You, you cast them out.
And so, what happened then was the Christians went
out where these folks were.
And they prayed for them.
They anointed them with oil.
They gave them food and most importantly, they gave them human presence and care.
And this what?
What happened then?
Well, some immunity was built up.
Some people came to health and then as a result of that, then
they came to the Christian faith.
'cause they said it's the practice of the faith that drew me to it, not a doctrine.
This care did.
So Julian, the apostate then calls all this priest to him and he says, look.
These impious Galileans, which is what he called Christians impious, Galileans
impious, because they didn't worship the state-sponsored Gods Galileans as a
diminutive way of talking about Christians following this dead guy from Galilee.
These impious Galileans care not only for their own sick, but for ours as well.
That is, that's a way of being in the world that's bearing witness to
the way that the world should be.
That's hospitality, that's care, that's friendship.
Christian practices that give a vision of the kingdom of God.
And we try to do that at renew with our relationship with the horses as well.
It's sort of a vision of the peaceable kingdom where humans and
animals work together in harmony.
Rupert Isaacson: If you were to put this Christian view, and I also, I
want to go back to, is anything in the New Testament talking about.
The, the right relationship of human to nature.
But let's just put that to the side.
Now, if you were, if you were to go to your average suburban megachurch
in the south and posit your view on eco theology bio biolog, yeah,
Ben Connor: yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what would they say to you?
Ben Connor: So, I'm not a hundred percent sure.
My suspicion is if I, so if I were going in that context, I
would have a whole bunch of bible verses with what I'm saying, right?
Because they would be really anxious about my theological conversation.
Partners, they would say,
Rupert Isaacson: why do you think, why, but why do you think they wouldn't
be like, actually, you know what?
Yeah, Ben, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, sure.
Sey.
Let's do it.
Let's go plant.
We we're gonna raise a million dollars and plant a forest in our backyard right now.
Like why would there be a difficulty taking on your point of view when
your point of view is not only seemingly vocational and very
Christian, but also common sense, so it be coming from their pushback.
Ben Connor: Well, I think it's a habitus, right?
A habitus that they've been formed into.
Mm.
Which is the, which is a, is sort of embodied way of interpreting and seeing
in the world that's been informed by a mis oriented dominion that drive to
differentiate themselves from creatures.
And for many of 'em understanding this world is a dramatic backdrop.
And then along with that, it's, it's a almost a kind of Bible worship.
You know, I would say that Jesus isn't the Lord.
Rupert Isaacson: The,
Ben Connor: that's interesting.
Their interpretation of the Bible is the Lord.
And so I'm calling into question
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Ben Connor: Long, entrenched biblical interpretations of scriptures that
aren't just a matter of opinion, but are a matter of identity.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's well took.
And so
Ben Connor: it's tough to have this discourse.
It in order to have, in order to have genuine discourse, that
has to be the openness to the possibility that I'm wrong.
Rupert Isaacson: Here's another question.
Okay, so let's go to a different abusive colonist thing outside of America.
Let's go to my own family and the British Empire and all of that.
What's interesting about the British Empire is that they definitely
did all sorts of bad stuff.
And at the same time there was a conservation movement that was similar
to like the Roosevelt Conservation Movement, which people would say
cynically came on the back of.
You know, native American genocides and so on.
Yes, yes it did.
And the, and the formation of national parks in Africa and that
sort of thing were also predicated upon, you know, mass displacement
and removals of peoples and so on.
Not in every case.
You've got the Maasai still in the Maasai Mara and that sort of thing.
But for the, for the most part, and this idea of primordial nature existing without
humanity in a pristine form is bullshit.
Humans were always there.
But just living in right relationship, not wrong relationship.
However, for example, let's say if you were in the British Forest
Service in British India in 1933, and you were administering a tract
of forest, you would give 1% of.
That forest land over to people who wanted to log it or, and the remaining
99% would be regarded as sacrosanct to be, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And if I'm here in Germany and I was just actually riding through the woods today
with a, a very lovely Christian American called Connie Uba, who works within
therapeutic riding and out of Tennessee.
And we were just admiring the forest and we were talking about
how this forest is, is maintained.
It is a working forest.
It's logged, but it's not clear cut.
So it's logged in a very thoughtful way.
The timber is absolutely sold.
You can see the trees that have been marked up, but they, they never let the
canopy disperse and they never let the root system get, troubled, and there's
all kinds of biodiversity in that forest.
So there's, you know, all kinds of wildlife.
We, we were seeing it, you know, as we were riding through, there's all
kinds of interesting plant life and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And this since.
Now, the reason I'm saying all of these things is that the area that
I'm in, in Germany's very Christian those people that were administering
the British Empire would've seen themselves as the three Cs, commerce,
civilization, and Christianity altogether.
Right.
But it seems to be very, you know, a very American thing.
This idea that again, is where we started the podcast, that the
Christian viewpoint means destruction.
Ben Connor: Destruction, yeah.
So it's related to unli.
It's, it's related to this idea that we have unlimited resources.
You know, we just keep, but the
Rupert Isaacson: people who went to Africa felt they did.
And the people in the 17th century in Yeah, Germany thought they did
Ben Connor: well.
I mean, it's, it's still happening everywhere.
It's related to meat.
Fair to some, isn't it?
Fair enough.
I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: fair enough.
Alright,
Ben Connor: let's look at Brazil.
What is it?
Brazilian rainforest.
What's happening?
They're becoming a place for cattle.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, right?
Ben Connor: Why?
Because they want the money that comes from selling the meat for cattle.
Right?
So then what kind of, what kind of things do you have to now grow if
you're gonna support these cattle?
You have to grow The corn that you turn into silage, that you fill the cattle
that isn't, none of that is supporting.
Human growth.
None of it's, that's happened in the United States as well.
I was shocked when I moved to the Midwest how humid it was.
I thought I lived in the most, I thought I lived in the armpit of
America when I lived in the historical triangle of Jamestown, Yorktown.
And in Williamsburg I lived in a swamp, you know?
No, how you get pretty
Rupert Isaacson: sweaty there.
Yeah.
It can
Ben Connor: get very sweaty there.
And then I thought, oh, that's it.
And then I come out to the Midwest and I'm like, gosh, it's just as humid.
Where's it coming from?
The corn fields.
These ridiculous corn fields you get.
I drove my daughter to school on the far end of Iowa.
Why do the
Rupert Isaacson: cornfield make it humid to other grasslands?
'cause corns are grass.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
It's, it's just from the.
The way that it produces the, the corn somehow it's just
letting out all kind of humidity.
I don't, I don't know all the details of it.
I don't know if it has to do with the seeding and the chemicals and all that.
I just know as I drive across Iowa, I see cornfield, cornfield,
cornfield, cornfield, and none of it's for human consumption.
It's all for the next state.
You drive through and see cattle, cattle, cattle, cattle,
cattle, and, and feed lots.
Yeah.
And what's that doing to the environment?
What's that doing to the environment?
So I think some of it has to do with just straight up Christianity hasn't
provided a strong critique to the way that we've treated the environment
based on our dietary commitments.
And, and what's that?
Christianity hasn't had a critique to that in the mainstream because we're all
just a bunch of meat eaters who want to be able to buy our hamburger for 3 99 a
pound at a big box store for convenience.
So this is what I'm talking about.
It's gonna cost this kind of movement's gonna cost.
And, and in, in the US we're not ready to face that cost yet.
And I think that it's in the generations that come behind the, so the kids that
grew up, the kids that are growing up now.
It's different.
I mean, they see people with disabilities in leading roles on tv, not just
used as a prop or as inspiration porn for somebody else, right?
They see they see diversity in terms of sexuality, and they are feeling
the, the impact of guns in schools.
So the people who are starting these environmental movements, these movements
against assault weapons and these sorts of things, these are the young people.
And these, the young people are the ones who are gonna have to
say, Hey, it's worth the sacrifice to, to start to make a difference.
And, and the young people are Christians.
They're gonna have to say, our theology's not prepared for this.
And so we have
Rupert Isaacson: to revisit it.
Yeah.
I thought our theology's not prepared for this.
So, you know, when I asked you for, where's, where's the
environmentalism in the Bible?
You gave you something from job, but it's not like it's everywhere in the Bible.
Right.
And where is it in the New Testament?
Or is it that?
Ben Connor: Yeah, I mean it's, it's, or do we have to read
Rupert Isaacson: between the lines to find it?
Ben Connor: You have to read between the lines.
But in Romans, in, in Romans chapter eight, it's gonna talk about all of
creation, groaning for redemption.
And then, and, and, and, and Philippians is gonna talk about Jesus' is the sort of
the head over all that is all of creation comes into its fullness in Jesus Christ.
And then you're gonna get a vision and revelation of the tree restored.
I mean, you know, the, the mythology of, of Adam and Eve with
rejecting the hospitality of God.
It's not about the apple.
It's really more about the rejection of the hospitality of God.
It's about it's about hubris and these sorts of things, but when
we see the restoration vision and.
In Revelation.
Then we have the tree of life.
We have the river of life.
We have those sorts of visions of ancy and, and fertility in life.
And so it's, it's, it's not strong.
But of course, the Bible is fundamentally a book to be read outside.
I mean, Jesus in the wilderness.
There's some beautiful artwork by Stanley Spencer called Jesus Jesus
Rupert Isaacson: in the wilderness.
Jesus in the wilderness.
Maybe that's what we're looking for.
Ben Connor: I think we're looking at, so it's not really told what happens there.
People think, okay, he, he goes 40 days and he's fasting.
He's starving.
He is miserable.
He is tempted by the devil.
And then where does he go?
He gets baptized and water starts his public ministry, this sort of thing.
Stanley Spencer wondered what happened when the person who's involved in creation
is there with creation and he has these clever pictures having been impacted
by the devastation of World War I.
You know, the trenches and mustard gas and, and, and fire and everything.
Just the death and destruction.
I think his paintings are a kind of ugia, it's a vision of Ugia.
Who talking about here?
Sorry?
Stanley.
Spencer.
Stanley.
Spencer.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yes, yes,
Ben Connor: yep.
And so, I think I can't remember where his art is now, maybe in Durham, but he, he
wanted to do 40 paintings for the 40 days.
But one of 'em is Jesus.
Yes.
His
Rupert Isaacson: paintings are all over churches in England.
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
He
Ben Connor: does one called, you know, the foxes have holds where Jesus
seems to be part of the environment and the foxes are playing around him.
And there's one where he is holding a scorpion, and the scorpions obviously
stung him, but he's looking at it with such curiosity and and love.
And there's one where, you know, he's like the mother hen with the hens around.
And there's one where even the lilies, where he looks like a boulder, and he
is, he's attending to these lilies.
Stanley Spencer was saying it was this time in the wilderness that
gave Jesus the strength to do what he was gonna have to do the next
three years in his public ministry.
It was this connection and may perhaps he was nurtured and cared
for by the very environment.
Rupert Isaacson: If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm
guessing you're somebody that, like me, loves to read books about not
just how people have achieved self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
Now I think, I think you just draw my attention to something interesting.
So yes, there, there was of course an environmental, philosophical,
mythological movement within Christianity that we all know about, but don't pay
a lot of attention to because they were written as children's books.
And that of course is Narnia.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So CS Lewis, as we know goes through World War I and then
has a sort of a Christian rebirth.
And what does he write?
Course he writes lots of things, but the Narnia Chronicles are about, are
with characters who the church took from pagan religion and mythology and
turned into demons and devils, you know.
People with horns on their head and goat's legs, for example, and turns them
into the good characters because they were, of course back then and the white
witch is manipulating that creation.
Mm-hmm.
But as control, who is a lion, who's an animal, and lion shall lie down
with a lamb, and so on and so on.
But none.
And, and, and maybe that's it again, lion shall lie down with the lamb.
I, I think that was what was fundamentally driving CS Lewis.
That idea comes out of World War I, which is everyone tries to kill everybody.
And now let's get back to Lion with the Lamb and let's, but
specifically going back to pagan imagery and mythology, you, you know.
SEIUs is in there, Baus is in there.
You know, all these pagan dairies are in there, and yet there's no, and, and, and
Christ is a lion and there's no separation in CS Lewis's mind about that Christmas.
And the other one is Tolkien.
So Tolkien, I was gonna say Tolkien and the, and the
trees, the wisdom of the trees.
He, he goes through World War I, the same thing.
Yep.
And what they both also describe in their when the villains are trying to, you know,
whether it's so, and Mann cutting down Fon or the white witch, you know, turning
everything into stone concrete, you know.
Yeah.
What they were seeing, of course.
pre-World War I was industrialization of the countryside.
And then they were seeing the absolute devastation of, of nature.
They were in these French forests that just got absolutely destroyed.
But then were resurrected later.
They're, they're back now.
And then they came out of this and they wrote these books.
Yeah.
Which are deeply Christian books with ELs and wizards and thorns and things.
And so, so I guess it's interesting, I I, I guess it is there hiding in
plain sight this this environmental movement within the church.
Yeah.
Are are you all gonna bring us back to Mr.
Nus and, and, and, and Tom Bombadil?
Ben Connor: Yeah.
No, I, I think I think I'm gonna try to do it through, through
nature excursions with children.
I think I'm gonna do it with a recasting of the horses having a vocation.
Yeah.
I think that's the way that I'm, I'm imagining moving forward in this
conversation and, and through my own how I consume and, and how I,
'cause we have to consume, I mean, everything consumes or you die, you
have to consume, but how consume
Rupert Isaacson: consuming as being part of nature.
It's just how we do it,
Ben Connor: right?
Yeah.
I mean, one of the most yeah.
Soil is, is death and life.
Mm-hmm.
At the same time.
And so how, how do I, how do I engage the world in a, in a
faithful way that doesn't, that, that contributes to the flourishing
of all creatures and, and land.
And that's a challenge.
It's a challenge with where you get your clothes and what you eat and
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Mm.
It is
Ben Connor: even, even how you, how you take care of your pond, you know,
all those, all those are challenging.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
What you feed your horse.
Absolutely.
Let alone feed your horse.
Feed now.
Okay.
I would like to see like forest schools.
I would like to see forest churches.
Are we gonna go back to sacred groves?
Can we go back to Sacred Groves?
Ben Connor: So that is Victoria Loz, L-O-O-R-Z.
Victoria Loz.
She wrote
Rupert Isaacson: L-O-O-R-Z.
Yep,
Ben Connor: that is right.
She wrote a book called Church of the Wild.
Church
Rupert Isaacson: of the Wild.
Ben Connor: Church of the Wild.
And she was a, she was a minister for years working inside the church.
And then she realized that, all the things we've talked
about were a challenge for her.
So she started having outdoor church services and now there's a whole network
in the United States of, of wild churches.
There's a wild church network.
Rupert Isaacson: Wild church network.
Ben Connor: So in just about every, and she even has almost like a, a wild
church, church of the Wild Seminary, almost like she has trainings you
can do and they'll be reading you know, Thomas Berry and let's see,
Farland Lane, the great conversation.
And they'll read
Rupert Isaacson: Shanette.
I've just Googled it.
Ben Connor: Oh, you found her?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: She just founder.
Ben Connor: Yeah, so I, I've had a couple conversations with her.
She's doing really creative work on that.
Again, it's outside of the mainstream of Christianity, but I
think it's starting to have some
Rupert Isaacson: popping up all over the land, like wild
mushrooms after a spring rain.
Wild churches, wild church communities are responding to a call from deep
within to change the way we relate to the natural world, moving from a collection
of objects to a communion of subjects.
Thomas Barry.
There you go.
See,
Ben Connor: there's the conversation.
So in this
Rupert Isaacson: stage of mass extinctions as, wow, wow, wow.
Okay.
It's all there.
Mm-hmm.
So why didn't I know about this?
I'm throwing a little tantrum now.
Nah, nah, nah.
This is my tantrum.
Why?
No, I, I've, I've been living in Texas for, you know, 20 plus years.
Why has no one told me about this?
Ben Connor: Yeah.
I, I, I have no idea.
I can't tell you that, but I'm glad we're having a conversation.
How did you find out about
Rupert Isaacson: it?
That, what, what was the before and the after of you discovering this
nature movement Within the church?
Hmm.
Or within Christianity.
Let's not even say the church.
Let's say we think Christianity.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
I think growing up there were some things around stewardship.
There were some bible study sort of things around stewardship in the nineties,
but none of 'em were really gripping.
It wasn't until I.
I think it was related to doing research for this grant, maybe.
No, it was, you know what, it was my relationship with horses.
It was through Melissa when I was hanging out with horses.
And of course I'm always thinking theologically and I thought,
who's really written about this?
And I couldn't find anything directly about that.
But I found the larger conversation, which was theology of animals and
biolog and, and eco theologians and these sorts of things.
So a lot of it actually comes out of our
Rupert Isaacson: wives, basically.
Yeah,
Ben Connor: a lot of it.
So there's, there's a conversation strand that's connected to process, philosophy
and process theology, which comes out of Alfred North Whitehead's work.
And Charles Hartshorn work is the idea.
It's basically a different way of thinking about how the world's put together.
That they're that you, you aren't just a body, but you're a collection of actual
es that are all working together as sort of a different structure to the world that
had them make some creative theological moves to take creation more se seriously
so that we are in fact part of creation and not set apart of it as a lot of the
inherited theology spoke, so that was called process theology, and there's some
really creative work on embodiment and bodies that comes out of process theology.
So that, that was one area that got me thinking about that.
And the other was of course, disability.
Disability and disability studies.
Since people with.
Disabilities are often cast as less than human.
It made people in disability studies say were treated similarly
to animals, and then some theology developed around that as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Ben Connor: But it's recent for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Were you always Christian?
Were you always a believer?
Did you, did you reject it at some point?
Do you have your punk rock band days?
Like what, just quickly, what's your, your bio, how did you evolve?
Ben Connor: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I mean, I was the kid whose parents made 'em go to church when I was young
and I'd sneak outta church and play in the woods by church and show up
at the end of the church with leaves in my hair and dirt on my knees and.
They say, where were you?
I was like, oh, I was at the youth group or whatever.
When I had the chance to sort of make more decisions that Christianity I was
experiencing wasn't very compelling to me.
And so I thought it's, it's, I would just try to do what made me happy,
but that became very self-interested and wasn't least satisfying either.
And then I finally met some people who lived out their faith in, in
a way that I felt was authentic.
Rupert Isaacson: How old were you at that point?
Ben Connor: I was 19.
So two things happened at that time.
Well, probably three things.
So I was studying architecture and realized I didn't like architecture,
so I was having a vocational crisis.
My dad got cancer and was gonna die really soon, so I took a
year off to take care of him.
He ended up only living in another four months.
He had a massive brain tumor.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Ben Connor: I wanted to know more about the Bible from somebody I felt like
really knew it and wasn't manipulating it.
And the person who most fit, that was a quadriplegic man who I'd meet with once
a week, who would take me through the Bible and, you know, I'd have to flip
him over and I'd have to put a cough drop in his mouth and I'd put the drink up.
So this idea of service, the idea that people with disabilities have
things to offer, tho, those things were there at the beginning of my
owning my Christianity, I suppose.
And then I started volunteering for a youth organization because I thought
if someone had told me this when I was a kid in this way, I would've
probably been more interested.
So I was doing that.
And then for the disability part, really that was with our son.
So this was, I.
I was getting ready to go to Princeton Theological Seminary to do a doctorate
in basically mission acumen history of religion, which that's not worth
continuing to talk about, but that was my focus Right before I went, my
son had a seizure and we found out he had had a stroke at birth and was
missing about a third of his brain.
So that taught me to teach him differently and I found that
classroom wasn't the best place.
This is not un unlike your story.
Yeah.
Yours was the best place was have him on the back of a horse.
Mine was, have him outside bouncing on a trampoline or scooting outside
that he needed that in order to focus.
So he, he listened to Homer while he was bouncing on a trampoline and I
would read things to him while he was.
Moving out outside.
So outside became really important way for me to connect with my son.
We got him into mountain biking.
We'd spend a whole lot of time outside and then that, that needed
to be more integrated with the faith.
That seemed to be, you go to church, you go inside the church,
you do spiritual stuff, and then you go out into the world where it
doesn't necessarily apply, you know?
And so I needed more integrated faith.
Rupert Isaacson: Where did it go with your son?
Quickly?
What was the trajectory?
Ben Connor: Yeah, so, so the trajectory for me, he won't, I'm sure he won't
mind me saying this, but he had he had sensory integration issues, visual
tracking issues visual range issues.
What's that called?
Peripheral vision issues, right?
A lot of markers of being on the autism spectrum, but never a clear diagnosis
because so many different things going on.
We homeschooled him because school was a nightmare for him, but he really wanted
to go to high school with his friends.
So we got him to the point where he could, he barely made it through high school.
At, at the end of it, he got in trouble for some drugs because the drugs, he
used to self-medicate and sort of figure out who he was because he had social
integration sort of challenges as well.
That was a big move for him coming through that.
Actually when I, when I picked him out from jail, I said, the first thing
you're gonna hear me say is God loves you no matter what you do or say.
And I love you no matter what you do or say, and we're gonna
get this through this together.
And the second thing I said was not as, not as nice.
It was he sort of gave me some pushback and I said, I could have left you to
be in the jail to be somebody else's bitch, but for the next week, you're
gonna be mine and you're gonna get your hair cut and do exactly what I say.
So yeah, I was dealing with the tension myself.
Indeed.
But the good news is he, he worked hard, had an aptitude for computers,
put himself through a computer coding school, and now he's making more money
than I am and living in Grand Rapids and is just a delightful, he is always
been a delightful, wonderful kid.
But now we relate on a different level as he's an adult who did, did he ever
Rupert Isaacson: regrow that part of his brain that had been lost or, no?
He is, he is made other connections.
Right.
The, the brain just made up for it.
Ben Connor: Yeah, he's, he's a Wow.
He's always been I'd say he's, he's.
My other kids wouldn't mind me saying that Tommy's the smartest of my kids.
I think he's smarter than me.
As, as well in terms of his, he, he just has a remarkable intellect.
He just schooling doesn't know what to do with someone who Yeah, sure.
Who learns in nonlinear Well,
Rupert Isaacson: but also what you did, of course, was you created
all that neuroplasticity by getting 'em out in nature, moving,
Ben Connor: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: BDNF, kinji cells, all of that stuff, which,
Ben Connor: yeah, and yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
And in the process I learned about universal design and learning without
knowing there was such a thing.
Got it.
So when I found this, this really, he
Rupert Isaacson: was really your theological teacher.
Ben Connor: Absolutely.
He was my teacher for theological education.
So if you take a course with me at the seminary, it's gonna be nothing
like a typical academic course.
That's very
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
So for example in a youth ministry class, I'm gonna have you.
Learn about adolescents from social scientists and then
create artwork that expresses the feeling of being an adolescent.
I'm gonna have you come into class and I'm gonna put out games, and
I'm gonna have you start playing the games and you're not gonna know why.
And then after half an hour, I'm gonna tell you to switch games
with someone else, and then you're gonna have to play that game.
And then I'm gonna cut you off after 10 minutes and I'm gonna
say, okay, let's talk about this.
Who were the leaders who was uncomfortable with this kind of exercise?
Who thought at the beginning, Hey, this is a learning exercise.
What are we trying to learn?
Who just enjoyed it?
Who is competitive, who is collaborative?
So I wanted them to learn about their own learning style so they can de.
Destigmatize other learning styles and relativize their own learning styles.
And so universal design and learning for me made a whole lot of sense.
And it's informed, the way that I teach, it informs the way we run our center.
So we're gonna have a symposium on disability and ministry the second
Saturday in July, all this stuff, ministry website, we'll have a symposium.
And the first half hour of it is an example of universal design
and learning and worship that's led by people with disabilities.
Rupert Isaacson: We're gonna have to do a second podcast.
Ben Connor: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
We
Ben Connor: haven't even gotten into the bodybuilding.
Rupert Isaacson: I know.
I'm trying to marshal my questions here.
We we're approaching the two hour mark and we are definitely gonna have to All right.
Listeners.
I promise you we're gonna get Ben Ben back.
In fact, maybe we'll get Ben and Melissa back together as well because Melissa,
his wife who runs Renew Therapeutic riding in Holland, Michigan is on his.
I've just done a, a fascinating interview with her on, over on
equine Assisted World, but I think, I think we need both of you guys on
to continue this conversation here.
Alright so here's another quick question 'cause we're approaching
the two hour mark and you know, I think we've blown everybody's brains.
So let's give a bit of a pause and then we'll come back and we'll pick
this conversation up in a few weeks.
But with your permission, why Christianity then?
Because we've got.
Plenty of other very good spiritual ways of looking at the world.
You've got, you know, Buddhism, it's a good one.
We've got Mystic Traditions within Islam.
We've got Mystic Traditions within Judaism.
We've got, you know, lots of good stuff.
We, you know, shamanism and, and so on and so on.
All of which was existing before Christianity.
And so that, that's number one.
Why, why then put a label on it.
Why, why, why Christianity?
And then the second question is, 'cause I could perhaps anticipate the answer
of why Christianity might be to say, ah, but Rupert, it's because it's a,
a religion predicated upon compassion.
Although, of course Buddhism is too, but hey, but Christianity does not practice
compassion in its mainstream, right?
So, and why not?
So, okay, so why Christianity?
And then why is the Christ message the one message within
Christianity that's ignored?
Ben Connor: For sure.
Sure.
That's all fair.
That's all.
So on the one hand, it has to do with who, who you interact with in terms
of how you receive the Christ message.
Doubt.
No, I, I, I spend most of my day with a lot of people who I believe
are living faithful faithfully.
Rupert Isaacson: DD, d, but you know what I'm saying.
Ben Connor: Absolutely.
I know what you're saying.
I, I accept the critique with open arms.
More question,
Rupert Isaacson: Chris.
Yeah.
But
Ben Connor: why, why Christianity?
So I would say fundamentally then I'm responding to the call.
Oh, follow me by Jesus, who I believe is still alive.
I don't think he's hanging up in heaven watching cops waiting to come
back again when the world's destroyed.
I believe that Jesus is actively working in the world.
Now.
There's obviously then why is there still suffering?
Why is all this?
Because we live in a, in a created world with contingencies a log can
be used to build a house or it can fall on your head and kill you.
Water can be drunk to, to, to nourish you or it can drown you.
Right.
And so we have, we have choice and opportunities in that, but I'm compelled.
Rupert Isaacson: But the world is older than Christianity.
Right.
And we've had, we've had Oh, absolutely.
Christlike figures, whether it's the Buddha or Zorro Asta or
ones we've forgotten, you know?
Right.
Ben Connor: So it has
Rupert Isaacson: to be
Ben Connor: a personal response
Rupert Isaacson: then.
Right.
Ben Connor: And so it's
Rupert Isaacson: just, it's just a, a, a, a heart feeling.
Ben Connor: Yeah.
It's a, it's a, it's a personal response to, and that's good enough for
Rupert Isaacson: me.
Yeah,
Ben Connor: yeah, yeah.
And, and so, but, but my Christianity doesn't take me out
of dialogue with other religions.
My Christianity is, it's, it's really, it's a, I, Christianity is such a
compromise word, especially in United States where it means, you know, you're
a Republican who voted for, for Trump, who doesn't seem to, and again, this
is political, anybody who's listening, but the legislation that's coming
out doesn't seem to care for the most marginalized people who I imagine Jesus
would be spending most of the time with as he would be pushing against empire.
And so that's the Christian
Rupert Isaacson: telling people to go out and buy automatic rifles at Walmart.
Yeah,
Ben Connor: I imagine.
Not.
So, so, so then that's, that's the Christ that I follow.
Christianity as a, as a religion has its problems.
And since I'm a one who follows Christ and have been.
In the US within a certain tradition, then I speak out of that tradition either as I
critique it as one within the tradition.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
And, okay.
Why is the Christ message the one message within Christianity
in America that is marginalized?
The Christ message is marginalized within Christianity.
Why?
Ben Connor: I think because Christianity in large part is too enamored with power.
Rupert Isaacson: It just, yeah.
Just became another power thing.
Yeah,
Ben Connor: yeah.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
And it's, yeah, it's too costly.
It's too costly to follow Christ.
It's too costly to do, to do his Jesus.
It's a pain in the ass.
It's, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Interestingly, as we were talking, Ileana, my wife, my boss came in and slipped me
this little bit of paper, the new Pope.
Oh, I saw
Ben Connor: we had that white smoke.
I didn't know who it is.
Yeah.
Yes.
It's the American
Rupert Isaacson: dude.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
First Is that the first American pope?
I think it is, right?
Ben Connor: Yeah, I think so.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Know anything about him?
Ben Connor: Not at all.
Rupert Isaacson: No, not at, I,
Ben Connor: not at all.
I really really appreciate the, the last pope.
You know, I think, I think he was doing some important things.
Of course he was a controversial pope because I think he was
trying to do the very things that Jesus would call him to do, but
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alright, so we can agree that if you want to live in Christ, it might be
a good idea not to cut that forest down and pave the entire planet.
I've really enjoyed this conversation, Ben.
Can we, can we delve deeper?
I've got more questions than I think.
And actually, listeners, listeners, listeners, especially American
listeners, please send us your questions.
Put, put them in the comments below.
Even if you hated this, like tell us why.
Don't just go but just, you know, en engage us, engage the dialogue but
come up with a bunch of questions because Ben's a rare breed and he's
turned us onto some other rare breeds.
And we're gonna continue this conversation, so please
give us your questions.
Ben, how do people find you and how do people find your books?
Ben Connor: Well, if you go to the Center for Disability and Ministry,
if you just type in Center for Disability and Ministry, I don't
believe there's another one then
Rupert Isaacson: spelt in the American way.
ER?
Yes.
The wrong in the American One, center for Disability.
Ben Connor: And Ministry.
Rupert Isaacson: And Ministry.
Ben Connor: Mm-hmm.
And it's at, if, if you have a hard time finding it, you can find it on the
Western Theological Seminary website.
That's where I work.
Western Theological,
Rupert Isaacson: Western Theological
Seminary.
Ben Connor: Yep.
And all my contact information is right there on the center website
as well as a link to our podcast.
Yep.
They can, they can contact me that way.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And books, publications.
What, what, what should people look at if they want to know about your work?
So that will be
Ben Connor: on the, that'll be on the, that'll be on my faculty website as well.
But three books published at, at this point, one called Practicing
Witness, which is the very thing we were talking about that, that it's
less about what you say about your, your Christian practice in the world.
The second book is called Amplifying Our Witness.
That's about youth ministry and disability.
So it's, right.
And that's the only book on youth ministry and disability at this point.
Wow.
And then disabling mission, enabling witness puts.
Mission studies in conversation with disability studies to see what comes out.
The other side, two books I'm working on right now.
I also edit a book series that's co-branded between my center
and InterVarsity Press Academic.
So I have a book I'm doing with John Swinton of Aberdeen called Missing
Voices in Theology, where we engage people who use augmented speech or who
have lost their sort of platform because of an onset disability or a diagnosis.
And we are setting up sort of why does this happen and then we're
putting their voices in there.
Rupert Isaacson: John Swinton, university of Aberdeen.
Ben Connor: Brilliant guy.
And then I'm doing a book with Melissa Harmony with horses, a
Theology of Equine Assisted Services.
And I'm building on the work of like, the Dorrs and what's your name?
You're right there.
Ray Hunt.
Yeah.
How do you forget the name?
Ray Hunt?
I don't know.
Yeah.
But that whole revolution in horsemanship and the way they were talking about
harmony, how do we jive that with Christian theology and how does that
inform the way you run a center?
And then I have a project I'm doing on bodybuilding and theology.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
We haven't, we haven't gotten to that one yet.
Yeah.
When you, when you meet Ben, he's a big dude.
So there's, there's a whole other conversation there which is
interesting to me because most people use bodybuilding around narcissism.
And so it's very interesting to meet someone who's into it, who's coming
from a whole other point of view.
But I think.
I'm just gonna leave that as a little hook for you listeners
for the next conversation.
Okay.
This has been really educational for me, so I appreciate it, Ben.
Will you come on again in a few weeks and we can talk more?
Ben Connor: Absolutely.
I'd love to come on with Melissa.
That would be a lot of fun.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: let's do it.
Let's do it.
Thank you.
And then we'll, we'll try to get some of these, these others on Victoria laws and
Ben Connor: the Reinst.
STRs.
Yeah.
Ron and Deb Reinst Straw would be a great 'cause.
He is also involved with an organization called a Rocha, A-R-O-C-H-A.
You can look up that online, but that's a, that's a eco theology
sort of a organization as well.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And I think, I know lots of people within our sort of
horse boy world who are Christians who are also looking for something.
I guess actually I should be paying homage.
So actually I want to dedicate this, I want to dedicate this
episode to my cousin Frank Taylor.
My cousin Frank Taylor died a few years ago.
He was the man who really pioneered the whole concept of agroforestry dry land,
agroforestry, if you've ever picked up a Devil's Claw product for arthritis.
He was the guy that pioneered Devil's Claw as a, as a viable commercial
product out of the deserts of Botswana.
He worked for many, many years with.
Marginalized hunter gatherer communities who'd been displaced by
more aggressive cattle owning cultures and basically enslaved by them.
And he helped them to plant wild gardens of their wild plants that they had.
Sun Bushman who they, where they'd always gathered these things medicinally.
And he helped them to find the most drought resistant
phenotypes and then market those.
And he had a whole, and, and he broke that international market open.
He died from a scorpion sting aged about almost 90, about three or four years ago.
Inspiration.
Very Christian man, even though he was hanging out very
much in that shamanic world.
And I remember when I first met him as a young adult, I was 18,
19, and I had just hitchhiked.
Across Zimbabwe and Botswana.
And he picked me up and he said to me, his first question when I got in the
truck with him was, so tell me, Rupert, where are you in your spiritual odyssey?
And I didn't know what to tell him.
And then I said, well, actually, I had a dream, not the, not so
long ago that I met the devil.
And the devil was playing the violin.
And when I heard this music, I felt this great sense of sadness that I was losing
something, but I can't explain the dream.
What do you think?
And he said, oh yes.
Well,
they, I hates to leave, lose a good teammate.
So, you know, you can expect some resistance.
Yeah.
If you're, if you're looking at other, other directions.
And he really mentored me.
Through a lot of my early work with the son Bushman and that human rights work
that I did, and I always marveled at the fact that he could have this really
sort of evangelical faith without, in any way, trying to convert the people
that he worked with or four really.
And he lived his life totally in service to nature in, in this interesting way.
So yeah, I think I'd like to dedicate this episode to Frank Taylor
from Felt Products Research and Development in Botswana who, yeah.
Yeah.
So I guess I, I guess there have been threads here that I just haven't seen.
Ben Connor: Mm-hmm.
Well, thanks.
Thank you.
Thanks for sharing that.
That means a lot.
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for having
Ben Connor: me on.
It's always a, always a fun to speak to you.
I, I want to hear you talking more next time.
We have a conversation though, so,
Rupert Isaacson: People have interviewed me, you know.
Yeah.
That, that's all out there.
But I mean, not with
Ben Connor: my questions though, right?
Rupert Isaacson: It's all about
Ben Connor: the
Rupert Isaacson: questions.
Ben Connor: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Well, that's fine.
We, we'll trade questions there.
What we'll do on the next one is you, you, you write down your questions.
I'll write down mine and we'll have a question off.
Sounds good.
With Melissa as the as the moderator, as the one who will actually
come out with the truth probably.
Oh, there you go.
Okay.
I, I, I, I'm honored.
Thank you so much, Ben, for coming on.
I'll see you in a few weeks with Melissa.
Sounds great.
Thanks for having me.
All right, my friend.
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