WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:30.125 --> 00:00:30.575 Bryant Gillespie: All right guys. 00:00:30.575 --> 00:00:31.565 So we're here. 00:00:31.570 --> 00:00:35.855 We've got the third addition of the better sign shop podcast. 00:00:36.215 --> 00:00:36.845 hi, Mike. 00:00:37.025 --> 00:00:37.625 Hi, Peter. 00:00:37.745 --> 00:00:38.765 Nice to have you guys. 00:00:39.485 --> 00:00:39.575 Michael Riley: Hey 00:00:39.575 --> 00:00:39.845 Peter Kourounis: Bryan. 00:00:40.085 --> 00:00:40.355 Nice. 00:00:40.355 --> 00:00:41.225 Are you nice to be back? 00:00:41.285 --> 00:00:42.305 Nice to be back Bryan. 00:00:42.305 --> 00:00:42.785 How are you doing? 00:00:42.845 --> 00:00:43.205 Yeah, 00:00:43.445 --> 00:00:46.165 Bryant Gillespie: I finally made it back from vacation. 00:00:46.745 --> 00:00:47.465 We were on the road. 00:00:47.465 --> 00:00:48.736 It felt like for two days. 00:00:48.765 --> 00:00:53.224 I don't think it was quite that long, but man, what a time I could tell 00:00:53.224 --> 00:00:55.806 you lots of stories about being in. 00:00:56.466 --> 00:00:59.076 A confined space with six women. 00:00:59.179 --> 00:00:59.629 Not fun. 00:01:03.019 --> 00:01:03.619 Michael Riley: I feel your pain. 00:01:03.619 --> 00:01:05.779 I just had family descend on our house this weekend with 00:01:05.779 --> 00:01:07.159 four teenage girls in tow. 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:10.939 And if I had any hair left on my head, it's probably gone by now. 00:01:10.944 --> 00:01:12.979 It's been a long one. 00:01:13.669 --> 00:01:14.029 Bryant Gillespie: Wow. 00:01:14.029 --> 00:01:17.192 My kids pull out my hair and I'm rocking the long hair now. 00:01:17.197 --> 00:01:19.207 , it's easy prey. 00:01:19.207 --> 00:01:19.567 I think 00:01:20.317 --> 00:01:22.237 Michael Riley: I just pull my own out and we 00:01:22.237 --> 00:01:26.149 Bryant Gillespie: got Peter back from the hospital or the sickness. 00:01:28.579 --> 00:01:29.699 Michael Riley: Glad you're feeling better, Peter. 00:01:29.743 --> 00:01:29.996 Thank 00:01:29.996 --> 00:01:30.146 Peter Kourounis: you. 00:01:30.146 --> 00:01:30.536 Thank you. 00:01:30.536 --> 00:01:33.056 The voices here, the breathing is good. 00:01:33.626 --> 00:01:34.556 Ready to rock and roll. 00:01:34.556 --> 00:01:36.296 The two levels are high. 00:01:36.296 --> 00:01:37.436 The two levels are good. 00:01:38.126 --> 00:01:38.598 That's great. 00:01:38.598 --> 00:01:40.687 You guys are never gonna believe this. 00:01:41.587 --> 00:01:42.757 You guys are never going to believe this. 00:01:42.907 --> 00:01:45.427 This is breaking news here for me. 00:01:45.697 --> 00:01:46.637 Very wow. 00:01:46.637 --> 00:01:47.987 A wow moment for me. 00:01:48.047 --> 00:01:51.777 A wow moment for me, kinda scared here. 00:01:51.782 --> 00:01:58.631 I I was just sent a I was just sent a gift by a gentleman who is wow. 00:01:58.669 --> 00:01:59.227 I'm so sorry. 00:01:59.227 --> 00:02:00.487 I'm so taken back by this. 00:02:00.967 --> 00:02:01.387 Okay. 00:02:01.392 --> 00:02:06.486 I was just sent a gift and I thought it was an Amazon box, so I opened it randomly 00:02:06.486 --> 00:02:10.896 thinking it was like one of my random Amazon purchases, but no, it was a gift 00:02:10.896 --> 00:02:14.226 sent to me by a former employee of mine. 00:02:14.946 --> 00:02:16.356 His name is Pablo Torres. 00:02:17.076 --> 00:02:18.516 So shout out to you Pablo. 00:02:18.816 --> 00:02:25.826 And he just published his first graphic design book called visual identity. 00:02:27.156 --> 00:02:28.056 Here it is right here. 00:02:29.016 --> 00:02:32.793 And he gave me a note here and he said read the third page, 00:02:32.793 --> 00:02:35.195 which is a he thanks me as being. 00:02:36.140 --> 00:02:41.990 Primary mentor for writing this book for that's pretty cool. 00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:44.260 He mentions me here in the spine of his book here. 00:02:45.170 --> 00:02:48.811 I don't think I'd ever expect that I'm actually like really 00:02:48.811 --> 00:02:50.101 taken back by this right now. 00:02:50.101 --> 00:02:54.850 I'm almost gonna cry here, but yeah, so that's a, I'm gonna read this book, 00:02:54.880 --> 00:02:57.340 VI visual identity by Pablo Torres. 00:02:57.340 --> 00:02:58.000 Go get it. 00:02:58.270 --> 00:02:59.380 Little plug for him here. 00:02:59.380 --> 00:03:00.730 Go get it on Amazon. 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:04.103 It's a great graphic design book for those graphic designers out there. 00:03:04.103 --> 00:03:04.373 Yeah. 00:03:04.463 --> 00:03:06.353 Little story about Pablo Torres. 00:03:06.963 --> 00:03:09.257 In 2011, he was an employee of mine. 00:03:09.257 --> 00:03:11.261 He was a graphic designer coming outta college. 00:03:11.261 --> 00:03:15.831 English was his second language and I taught him how to be a designer 00:03:15.831 --> 00:03:19.884 and assign business and he gives me a lot of credit for that in his book. 00:03:19.884 --> 00:03:20.202 Yeah. 00:03:20.252 --> 00:03:21.606 That's quite exciting for me. 00:03:21.816 --> 00:03:23.226 That's a first I'm 00:03:23.226 --> 00:03:23.766 Michael Riley: actually mention. 00:03:23.766 --> 00:03:26.579 So is that book like specifically about sign design or it's 00:03:26.579 --> 00:03:27.449 about, is it more like a 00:03:27.449 --> 00:03:28.619 Peter Kourounis: general graphic design book? 00:03:28.979 --> 00:03:34.349 It's about business visual identity in terms of what sign shops can 00:03:34.349 --> 00:03:36.269 and graphic design shops can do 00:03:36.269 --> 00:03:37.139 Michael Riley: for your business. 00:03:37.889 --> 00:03:38.609 That's really awesome. 00:03:38.609 --> 00:03:40.899 We'll put a link to that book up on the website, the show 00:03:40.899 --> 00:03:43.119 Bryant Gillespie: notes, if we can ever figure out the show notes. 00:03:45.339 --> 00:03:49.848 I think we've had two episodes so far, no show notes, so we'll get that figured 00:03:49.848 --> 00:03:51.858 out so we can promote Pablo for sure. 00:03:52.758 --> 00:03:52.998 Michael Riley: Yeah. 00:03:53.028 --> 00:03:53.568 Yeah, definitely. 00:03:54.318 --> 00:03:54.678 Awesome. 00:03:55.008 --> 00:03:56.058 Everybody buy Pablo's book 00:03:56.748 --> 00:03:58.728 Peter Kourounis: ever go, everybody go buy Pablo Torres's 00:03:58.728 --> 00:04:01.728 book visual identity on Amazon. 00:04:03.048 --> 00:04:04.878 Michael Riley: Yeah, we just try to get Pablo on the show someday. 00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:06.409 Let's do it'd be a great guest. 00:04:06.411 --> 00:04:08.169 Peter Kourounis: Let me see if I could make that happen. 00:04:09.069 --> 00:04:09.729 Michael Riley: Yeah, that'd be awesome. 00:04:11.064 --> 00:04:11.334 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:04:11.334 --> 00:04:14.352 For the new listeners, so this thing has taken off a little bit. 00:04:14.682 --> 00:04:21.462 How about we take a minute to introduce ourselves, Mike sign money. 00:04:22.182 --> 00:04:22.572 You go 00:04:22.577 --> 00:04:25.237 Michael Riley: first sign, money sign bunny. 00:04:25.265 --> 00:04:29.250 My name's Mike Riley in the sign industry for about 24, 25 years or 00:04:29.250 --> 00:04:33.575 so now used to own a decent sized sign company and sold it about seven 00:04:33.575 --> 00:04:36.858 or eight years ago and moved across the country to the west coast. 00:04:36.863 --> 00:04:42.541 And now I live in Oregon and I renovate my house and design signs for other 00:04:42.541 --> 00:04:44.371 sign companies now on my pajamas. 00:04:44.431 --> 00:04:45.799 So life is good in Oregon, 00:04:46.909 --> 00:04:48.409 Bryant Gillespie: Tim, the tool, man Taylor, over here. 00:04:48.709 --> 00:04:49.189 All right, Peter. 00:04:49.189 --> 00:04:49.279 Yep. 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:51.829 Spill the bow for 00:04:51.829 --> 00:04:52.279 Michael Riley: everybody. 00:04:53.209 --> 00:04:53.569 Peter Kourounis: Yep. 00:04:53.891 --> 00:04:57.581 My name is Peter CORs and I am a. 00:04:59.126 --> 00:05:00.596 Graphic designer by trade. 00:05:00.596 --> 00:05:05.436 I have a unlimited graphic design company as well, and I 00:05:05.436 --> 00:05:07.926 also own a fast signs franchise. 00:05:07.926 --> 00:05:12.126 I'm the only sign shop owner of the three of us. 00:05:12.156 --> 00:05:16.824 So that is that is, that seems to be the the adage here in this group here. 00:05:16.824 --> 00:05:21.788 But I bring a lot at the table to, from a standpoint of business coaching marketing 00:05:21.788 --> 00:05:26.383 expertise and various different levels of systematic approaches that sign shop 00:05:26.443 --> 00:05:29.952 owners should follow here coming from a franchise model, having developed 00:05:29.952 --> 00:05:32.412 a franchise within the sign industry. 00:05:32.412 --> 00:05:36.856 It's I'm very passionate about following a process, being systematic with your 00:05:36.856 --> 00:05:42.591 business and ultimately helping you lead to growing and scaling your business. 00:05:46.416 --> 00:05:48.096 Bryant Gillespie: maybe we should, next time we should do 00:05:48.096 --> 00:05:49.386 the introductions for each other. 00:05:49.836 --> 00:05:53.074 I think that would be fun, but yeah, I'm Bryant. 00:05:53.104 --> 00:05:55.864 The founder of better sign shop. 00:05:55.894 --> 00:06:01.294 I have been in the sign industry for X number of years. 00:06:01.984 --> 00:06:04.773 I, a number of years I don't know how long it is. 00:06:04.773 --> 00:06:05.781 Like 17, maybe. 00:06:05.781 --> 00:06:10.263 I've got three rotten little girls that pull out my long hair and I feel 00:06:10.263 --> 00:06:13.533 like by next year I might look like Mike, by the time we get done here. 00:06:13.953 --> 00:06:18.971 But when I'm not messing with them or getting ran over by the girls, 00:06:18.976 --> 00:06:22.697 I'm helping everybody improve their systems, processes, whatever 00:06:22.747 --> 00:06:25.027 Michael Riley: hey, will you guys give me like one second since we're gonna 00:06:25.027 --> 00:06:27.097 edit this out and I'm really sorry. 00:06:27.217 --> 00:06:28.297 We're gonna leave this with something. 00:06:29.407 --> 00:06:30.577 My cat shit on my desk. 00:06:36.307 --> 00:06:37.297 Bryant Gillespie: I think we'd leave that in. 00:06:37.297 --> 00:06:38.227 Yeah, I don't 00:06:38.232 --> 00:06:40.297 Peter Kourounis: think, I don't think you got, can you please leave that in? 00:06:41.163 --> 00:06:41.463 Bryant Gillespie: All right. 00:06:41.541 --> 00:06:47.391 So today's topic guys is growing paints, which could mean a lot of things, but 00:06:47.440 --> 00:06:54.856 in the course of today, it is when your shop is scaling from, let's say 00:06:54.856 --> 00:07:01.610 250,000 or a handful of employees to 20 employees, the 30 employees, and 00:07:01.610 --> 00:07:02.960 what kind of impact that has on the. 00:07:03.021 --> 00:07:04.483 Michael Riley: yeah, we touched on this a little bit. 00:07:04.483 --> 00:07:07.986 I think in our first episode actually about particularly about growing too 00:07:07.986 --> 00:07:11.519 fast and, taking every job that walks in the door and how you can really 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.156 damage your reputation or even put yourself out of business, if you 00:07:15.156 --> 00:07:20.036 grow without any sort of guardrails on that growth without managing it. 00:07:20.096 --> 00:07:23.394 And I've definitely seen a a lot of businesses, not just in the sign industry, 00:07:23.394 --> 00:07:27.324 but businesses in general, my former customers that they grew, way too fast 00:07:27.394 --> 00:07:30.756 way too quickly and experienced some serious growing pains because of that. 00:07:30.846 --> 00:07:34.056 And it's a real rock and hard place that you're stuck between, the traditional 00:07:34.376 --> 00:07:35.937 business mentality is grow or die. 00:07:35.937 --> 00:07:38.177 So I think as an entrepreneurs it's hard to you. 00:07:39.842 --> 00:07:42.755 Turn away any work, especially where you're in that growth phase where 00:07:42.813 --> 00:07:44.253 you're trying to go to the next level. 00:07:44.793 --> 00:07:47.261 And it's easy to get caught with your pants down, for sure. 00:07:49.211 --> 00:07:52.176 Bryant Gillespie: When you're small, I think you're you do have that mentality of 00:07:52.192 --> 00:07:54.472 Hey, this job is coming through the door. 00:07:54.802 --> 00:07:56.362 I just walked right in. 00:07:56.390 --> 00:08:02.950 And often you, you do walk-ins so Hey, this $200 job, or this $50 job came 00:08:02.950 --> 00:08:04.780 through the door, I'm gonna take it. 00:08:04.900 --> 00:08:05.570 We're gonna do it. 00:08:05.621 --> 00:08:05.711 Michael Riley: Yeah. 00:08:05.735 --> 00:08:08.476 It's terrifying to, to think about turning away money. 00:08:08.525 --> 00:08:10.981 You're trying to eat, you're trying to pay the bills and. 00:08:11.311 --> 00:08:14.431 And if you have employees at that point, you're trying to pay them as well and 00:08:14.441 --> 00:08:16.271 not have your payroll check bounce. 00:08:16.871 --> 00:08:19.424 So it's definitely an intimidating spot to be in for sure. 00:08:19.455 --> 00:08:22.739 And I think knowing when to say yes and when to say no is probably one 00:08:22.739 --> 00:08:25.384 of the most essential tools in a small business owner's tool belt. 00:08:26.734 --> 00:08:27.904 Peter Kourounis: It's actually interesting that you say that. 00:08:27.950 --> 00:08:31.477 I actually think that's the pivotal point for when somebody realizes that 00:08:31.477 --> 00:08:33.487 they need to grow that statement right. 00:08:33.487 --> 00:08:39.277 There is that if they are knowledgeable to the, to, to a point where they can 00:08:39.282 --> 00:08:46.777 say no, they've reached a certain portion of their entrepreneurial lifestyle where 00:08:47.167 --> 00:08:51.217 they value their time over the dollar. 00:08:51.557 --> 00:08:51.907 Right. 00:08:51.912 --> 00:08:51.967 Right. 00:08:51.972 --> 00:08:56.287 So that kind of lends itself to a certain growth spurt in entrepreneurial shift. 00:08:56.292 --> 00:08:59.467 I remember taking every single order that came in the door too, but at a 00:08:59.467 --> 00:09:01.987 certain point, you have to realize that. 00:09:02.587 --> 00:09:05.437 I think a lot of small business owners out there, small shop owners, 00:09:05.767 --> 00:09:07.177 I'll take the, I'll take your logic. 00:09:07.177 --> 00:09:08.767 Like they need to make that payroll check. 00:09:09.007 --> 00:09:11.617 And a lot of them use that barometer, right? 00:09:11.677 --> 00:09:14.737 As a barometer, I need to do $5,000 to make payroll this week. 00:09:14.737 --> 00:09:17.467 So I need to take every dollar I can. 00:09:17.467 --> 00:09:20.347 And I've spoken to several business owners that operate that way. 00:09:20.347 --> 00:09:25.994 And typically when you have that mindset, it lends itself to a to per, 00:09:25.994 --> 00:09:29.174 to such a small scale business, right. 00:09:29.174 --> 00:09:33.314 It which it might be actually even harder to run than a larger scale 00:09:33.314 --> 00:09:37.934 business when you're relying on that next order to pay your bills, nothing is 00:09:37.934 --> 00:09:43.244 more stressful and more pressure packed than that than that piece right there. 00:09:43.314 --> 00:09:47.239 Growth comes in many different forms, but in my opinion, just what you said. 00:09:47.779 --> 00:09:52.219 If they can get to that level where they can say no, that means that they've 00:09:52.219 --> 00:09:57.223 already surpassed that portion of that pressure packed decision that they need to 00:09:57.223 --> 00:09:57.403 Michael Riley: make. 00:09:59.023 --> 00:09:59.353 Right. 00:09:59.563 --> 00:10:03.103 Or even if they haven't necessarily gotten to that point yet, if they 00:10:03.103 --> 00:10:07.633 just, everybody goes into business with a vision in their head of what they 00:10:07.633 --> 00:10:11.322 want their company to look like and an ideal type of customer, or, an ideal 00:10:11.322 --> 00:10:13.152 type of job or work they want to do. 00:10:13.812 --> 00:10:16.691 And it's really easy to just abandon that vision too, when somebody's 00:10:16.691 --> 00:10:18.209 waving money in your face as well. 00:10:18.214 --> 00:10:21.285 So not just controlling growth from a financial standpoint, but also controlling 00:10:21.285 --> 00:10:24.952 the direction of your company and the, if you're taking every job that 00:10:24.952 --> 00:10:28.254 comes in your door just to make ends, meet and pay the bills that might not 00:10:28.254 --> 00:10:31.420 align with the vision, the long term vision you have for your business and. 00:10:32.470 --> 00:10:35.438 As you emerge from that growth period you very well could be in 00:10:35.438 --> 00:10:36.458 a different business than you. 00:10:36.518 --> 00:10:38.858 You started out in if you're not careful as well. 00:10:38.858 --> 00:10:41.457 And I've seen that happen to a lot of people it even happened to me, to, to 00:10:41.462 --> 00:10:43.257 Bryant Gillespie: one degree I was gonna be my next question, man. 00:10:43.257 --> 00:10:46.458 Was what was the vision when you started and where did you end up? 00:10:46.488 --> 00:10:50.291 Michael Riley: For me, I started out wanting to make, really high 00:10:50.291 --> 00:10:54.144 end hand carved, dimensional, gold leaf, sandblasted, the kind 00:10:54.144 --> 00:10:56.659 of stuff in new England, in a coastal touristy town, right? 00:10:56.659 --> 00:11:00.051 Like just picture high end signage in a rust belt city 00:11:00.051 --> 00:11:01.738 in Ohio that's hard to sell. 00:11:02.578 --> 00:11:03.238 the market for it. 00:11:03.238 --> 00:11:03.808 Isn't huge. 00:11:03.808 --> 00:11:04.078 Right. 00:11:04.087 --> 00:11:07.202 And you a few years into my business after starting my business. 00:11:07.269 --> 00:11:10.249 I guess seven or eight years after starting my business the economy really 00:11:10.459 --> 00:11:12.086 took a nose, dive, the financial. 00:11:12.521 --> 00:11:14.111 Crash in 2008, 2009. 00:11:14.174 --> 00:11:18.314 It definitely upended the business environment. 00:11:18.374 --> 00:11:22.525 I think, everywhere, not just in, in Dayton, Ohio, across the board the board. 00:11:22.530 --> 00:11:23.245 Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:23.245 --> 00:11:28.735 So all of a sudden, nobody was buying gold leaf, hand carved signs. 00:11:28.735 --> 00:11:30.425 They were buying going out of business banners. 00:11:30.443 --> 00:11:33.663 So on one, I mean on one hand it's smart business to pivot when the, the 00:11:33.668 --> 00:11:36.574 business environment drastically changes like that, cuz that's a case where 00:11:36.574 --> 00:11:40.264 either you adapt or you die, it's not necessarily like a grow or die thing. 00:11:40.316 --> 00:11:42.225 But you do abandon your vision. 00:11:42.251 --> 00:11:45.993 And for me, like we came out of the recession session as a more of a wide 00:11:45.993 --> 00:11:48.902 format, grand format type operation. 00:11:48.904 --> 00:11:52.084 And we really, weren't doing very many signs at all after that. 00:11:52.084 --> 00:11:54.685 I mean, we definitely move in a different direction and I, 00:11:54.685 --> 00:11:56.161 in hindsight looking back like. 00:11:57.211 --> 00:12:00.001 I think that was the right business decision to pivot and go where the 00:12:00.001 --> 00:12:01.651 market was demanding that we go. 00:12:01.651 --> 00:12:04.321 And we came out of it, a very strong company, and we saw a lot of competitors 00:12:04.321 --> 00:12:09.171 drop like flies, but it, wasn't what I started out wanting to do. 00:12:09.291 --> 00:12:12.934 And my satisfaction with the business definitely. 00:12:13.534 --> 00:12:16.864 Took a nose dive as well, because we were no longer doing the types 00:12:16.864 --> 00:12:18.124 of signs that I wanted to do. 00:12:18.154 --> 00:12:21.349 We were, meeting the market demand which, I think mentally takes 00:12:21.349 --> 00:12:22.399 a toll on a business owner too. 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.088 If you're cranking out work that you just don't want to do, you 00:12:24.088 --> 00:12:26.158 don't enjoy doing profitable or not. 00:12:26.193 --> 00:12:28.499 Bryant Gillespie: I think that's one of the trade offs that you have to make in 00:12:28.499 --> 00:12:32.382 this industry though, as well is you get some of these really nice projects that 00:12:32.382 --> 00:12:38.502 you enjoy doing, and then you get 10 times as many banners or crappy projects 00:12:38.502 --> 00:12:40.872 that you just, they pay the bills, right? 00:12:40.872 --> 00:12:42.042 So you, that next 00:12:42.042 --> 00:12:45.714 Michael Riley: hit, but I think a lot of people are, I think a lot 00:12:45.714 --> 00:12:49.142 of people are really lucky in, in just in their geographical, location 00:12:49.142 --> 00:12:51.694 where they're in a place where, their market, their local market supports 00:12:52.024 --> 00:12:53.374 whatever type of signage they wanna do. 00:12:53.374 --> 00:12:55.670 And other people, like me, like my market just didn't support it. 00:12:55.670 --> 00:12:56.820 I hear a lot of people say. 00:12:57.630 --> 00:12:59.070 you can sell any type of sign anywhere. 00:12:59.075 --> 00:12:59.970 It's just the way you sell it. 00:12:59.970 --> 00:13:01.030 And I don't really buy that. 00:13:01.030 --> 00:13:02.320 That's not necessarily true. 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.814 I mean, there are business markets that just aren't gonna buy certain types of 00:13:04.814 --> 00:13:07.277 signage, no matter how well you spin it. 00:13:07.277 --> 00:13:08.747 Or at least they're not gonna the market. 00:13:08.747 --> 00:13:11.926 Isn't big enough to actually support anybody other than, a one person operation 00:13:11.926 --> 00:13:13.276 working out other garage or something. 00:13:13.906 --> 00:13:16.726 Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I mean, in Dayton, 00:13:16.731 --> 00:13:19.627 Ohio, you, you can't run a large sign company making just gold leaf. 00:13:19.627 --> 00:13:22.147 So that's just not gonna happen where like you could, if you 00:13:22.147 --> 00:13:24.277 were in Cape Cod or something. 00:13:24.307 --> 00:13:24.607 Right. 00:13:24.632 --> 00:13:27.888 So there's a bit of a self betrayal that goes into growth as well. 00:13:27.888 --> 00:13:33.918 Like you have to put your personal wants and needs and visions for the business, 00:13:34.188 --> 00:13:38.403 not necessarily in the back burner, but you've gotta give them space to. 00:13:39.318 --> 00:13:43.217 Exist with the reality of business and managing that, is just as 00:13:43.217 --> 00:13:45.407 difficult as managing growth, I think. 00:13:45.797 --> 00:13:48.287 And it's tough 00:13:48.947 --> 00:13:53.700 Bryant Gillespie: was for me anyway, I, my journey into signage was really, 00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:57.660 and we've talked about this before, but it was really just, Hey, I can actually 00:13:57.660 --> 00:13:59.790 get paid to make cool shit for people. 00:14:00.330 --> 00:14:07.022 And that was for a long time, that was enough, so I, and as you keep going in 00:14:07.022 --> 00:14:10.642 the industry, like you get a little more jaded and one day you wake up and you're 00:14:10.642 --> 00:14:16.522 doing nothing, but yard signs all day on a C E T flatbed printer that you despise. 00:14:16.552 --> 00:14:21.112 But yeah, I feel like it's, it is definitely a journey and I kinda look 00:14:21.117 --> 00:14:24.521 at it as you're, when you're growing, like you're first starting out, 00:14:24.526 --> 00:14:26.272 you're growing, you hit that period. 00:14:26.692 --> 00:14:30.312 Like you're coming up to the top of the hill, and you, you you think, oh, Hey, 00:14:30.312 --> 00:14:31.872 this is what's gonna be over the hill. 00:14:31.872 --> 00:14:34.546 And I know where we want to go at this point in time. 00:14:34.966 --> 00:14:40.376 But when you get to that hill point where you're like something like I could see 00:14:40.376 --> 00:14:44.328 it now it's it, you have definitely a different perspective than what you have 00:14:44.328 --> 00:14:49.366 when you started, which, I feel like listening to you talk about the different 00:14:49.366 --> 00:14:54.082 type of signs that you did, or didn't want to do, obviously that's in hindsight, but 00:14:54.082 --> 00:14:56.500 in the moment in the fog it's hard to. 00:14:57.340 --> 00:14:58.780 Exactly which way to go. 00:14:58.780 --> 00:15:02.582 And, you trying to shove some of those feelings down of Hey, I don't, I 00:15:02.582 --> 00:15:04.772 really, I don't wanna do this sign, but 00:15:04.794 --> 00:15:07.571 Michael Riley: But I feel like I have to cuz I I wanna make payroll this week. 00:15:07.871 --> 00:15:08.081 yeah. 00:15:08.081 --> 00:15:11.361 Bryant Gillespie: Or, Hey, I don't want to add three more employees to the business, 00:15:11.921 --> 00:15:16.464 but I have to manage this growth or, I have to buy this equipment or, it doesn't 00:15:16.464 --> 00:15:18.324 have to be taking on that particular job. 00:15:18.324 --> 00:15:21.714 It could be any one of those things that you do to grow or to support 00:15:21.714 --> 00:15:22.944 the growth that you're experiencing. 00:15:23.464 --> 00:15:23.814 Michael Riley: Right. 00:15:23.904 --> 00:15:24.204 Right. 00:15:24.864 --> 00:15:27.521 And I think the flip side too, it too, a lot of people don't consider 00:15:27.881 --> 00:15:31.848 when they're thinking about growth as well, is are you as a business owner 00:15:32.248 --> 00:15:35.328 actually benefiting from that growth, the business may benefit from the 00:15:35.328 --> 00:15:42.265 growth, theoretically more revenue, more employees, more customers, but as a 00:15:42.265 --> 00:15:46.585 business owner, is that growth actually buying you the lifestyle that you want. 00:15:47.335 --> 00:15:49.765 Because we get into the industry cuz we wanna make cool shit, like you 00:15:49.765 --> 00:15:52.255 said, but the reality is we get into the industry cuz we wanna make money. 00:15:52.495 --> 00:15:53.575 It's a means to an end. 00:15:55.355 --> 00:15:58.597 Are you actually enjoying more of a free lifestyle? 00:15:58.667 --> 00:15:59.747 Are you happy in your life? 00:15:59.747 --> 00:16:01.577 Are you making more money as you grow? 00:16:02.147 --> 00:16:05.787 Or are you just adding more stress and not really making any more money or taking, 00:16:05.858 --> 00:16:07.568 taking any more time off or vacation? 00:16:07.568 --> 00:16:10.658 And that's a, and that's a trap that I fell into in, in a lot of people as 00:16:10.658 --> 00:16:12.411 they're going through the growth phase. 00:16:12.681 --> 00:16:12.771 Oh yeah. 00:16:12.843 --> 00:16:13.563 Experience as well. 00:16:13.563 --> 00:16:17.417 Like I've, I've troubled my revenue, but my paycheck is exactly the same 00:16:17.417 --> 00:16:20.770 and I'm act, I actually lost a week of pay vacation because I'm so busy now. 00:16:21.220 --> 00:16:25.973 And that's, I think that's where unmanaged growth starts to really 00:16:25.973 --> 00:16:29.865 bite you in the asses when you step back and realize oh yeah we're big and 00:16:29.870 --> 00:16:33.967 we're busy and we're, dollar signs are there, but my life hasn't improved any. 00:16:33.967 --> 00:16:35.497 Or if anything, it's gone backwards a little bit. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:36.899 I'm more stressed out than I was before. 00:16:38.129 --> 00:16:41.099 so I think evaluating your growth strategy and where you wanna go with the company 00:16:41.549 --> 00:16:46.601 from a very critical eye and really determining how much do you want to grow? 00:16:46.606 --> 00:16:51.203 How big do you want to get and how is that going to mesh with your desired exit 00:16:51.203 --> 00:16:53.663 strategy, lifestyle, lifestyle, whatever. 00:16:53.663 --> 00:16:54.083 Right. 00:16:54.443 --> 00:16:55.463 And nobody thinks about that. 00:16:55.471 --> 00:16:56.143 Oh, I own a business. 00:16:56.143 --> 00:16:56.473 That's cool. 00:16:56.473 --> 00:16:57.283 I can do whatever I want. 00:16:57.283 --> 00:16:57.463 Right. 00:16:57.553 --> 00:16:58.825 No that's not how it works at all. 00:16:59.155 --> 00:17:00.355 You slave to the business. 00:17:00.385 --> 00:17:01.045 Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:01.045 --> 00:17:01.495 Absolutely. 00:17:01.495 --> 00:17:02.005 A hundred percent. 00:17:03.415 --> 00:17:03.655 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:17:03.710 --> 00:17:07.610 This intersection of growth and ownership and what it means for 00:17:07.633 --> 00:17:09.487 a lifestyle work life balance. 00:17:09.487 --> 00:17:11.677 We've talked about it on some of our mastermind calls. 00:17:11.748 --> 00:17:15.254 But we've got a guest today on the podcast. 00:17:15.254 --> 00:17:18.194 We've got Luke Maad is it? 00:17:18.344 --> 00:17:20.084 I don't think I've ever said your last name, dude. 00:17:21.044 --> 00:17:21.614 Luc Michaud: Misha. 00:17:21.794 --> 00:17:22.154 The B 00:17:22.244 --> 00:17:22.694 Bryant Gillespie: MIS silent. 00:17:23.504 --> 00:17:23.654 Yeah. 00:17:24.074 --> 00:17:25.814 I hate butchering people's last names. 00:17:26.474 --> 00:17:31.334 so we got Luke, me Misha with us from Sytech in British Columbia. 00:17:32.054 --> 00:17:35.984 Luke is one of the owners of a growing shop. 00:17:36.854 --> 00:17:40.936 And he's gonna join us today to talk about some of their experiences 00:17:40.936 --> 00:17:42.646 with rapid growth in the company. 00:17:43.186 --> 00:17:44.116 Welcome aboard Luke. 00:17:45.316 --> 00:17:45.436 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 00:17:45.436 --> 00:17:45.946 Thanks for having 00:17:45.946 --> 00:17:46.366 Michael Riley: me guys. 00:17:46.696 --> 00:17:47.536 Welcome, Luke. 00:17:47.596 --> 00:17:48.136 We're excited. 00:17:48.136 --> 00:17:48.646 You're here. 00:17:50.026 --> 00:17:50.576 Yeah, me too. 00:17:50.576 --> 00:17:54.460 Bryant Gillespie: Just so we're clear, this is not a swear free zone. 00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:56.710 You can swear safe space. 00:17:58.150 --> 00:17:58.570 No sense. 00:17:59.110 --> 00:18:01.698 Luc Michaud: Don't I I've probably said a precedent, but I don't 00:18:01.698 --> 00:18:03.528 actually always need to swear, but 00:18:04.308 --> 00:18:05.148 Bryant Gillespie: sometimes I do. 00:18:05.478 --> 00:18:05.568 Oh 00:18:05.568 --> 00:18:05.838 Michael Riley: yeah. 00:18:07.128 --> 00:18:08.974 oh, it's a necessity in the sign industry. 00:18:08.979 --> 00:18:12.131 Like you're not a true sign guy, unless you just let it 00:18:12.136 --> 00:18:13.541 fly when you gotta let it fly. 00:18:13.541 --> 00:18:15.169 Like it's just, You gotta release the 00:18:15.169 --> 00:18:15.559 Luc Michaud: tension 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:16.279 Michael Riley: somehow, right? 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:16.879 Absolutely. 00:18:17.509 --> 00:18:17.779 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:18:17.896 --> 00:18:20.191 Give us a little bit about your shop Luke. 00:18:22.461 --> 00:18:26.929 Luc Michaud: So Mike was talking earlier about 2008, 2009. 00:18:26.970 --> 00:18:30.210 And that's really, it's not, our company started in 2005. 00:18:30.280 --> 00:18:37.157 But of course, like everybody else 2008 to 2012 or so, was challenging period. 00:18:37.187 --> 00:18:39.327 And at the time I actually just worked for the company. 00:18:39.327 --> 00:18:44.919 I started working with my partner just as an employee in 2008 , and in 2012 I 00:18:44.919 --> 00:18:50.551 was having a casual conversation with the bookkeeper and my business partner at the 00:18:50.551 --> 00:18:55.381 time thought we were breaking even, but we were actually losing money, but nobody 00:18:55.381 --> 00:18:59.641 really realized that until this casual conversation with the bookkeeper happened 00:18:59.641 --> 00:19:00.931 and I said, oh, at least we're breaking. 00:19:01.831 --> 00:19:02.941 She's oh, we're not breaking even. 00:19:03.811 --> 00:19:04.111 Oh, geez. 00:19:04.111 --> 00:19:07.294 What like does tra know that, and she's oh, I don't know. 00:19:07.984 --> 00:19:12.025 It never really clued into, she was doing her job and to be fair to her, 00:19:12.085 --> 00:19:14.695 like her job is not to manage the money. 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:17.935 Her job is to make sure everything the bookkeeping was 00:19:17.935 --> 00:19:19.135 done line down to the penny. 00:19:19.135 --> 00:19:19.345 Right. 00:19:19.345 --> 00:19:22.482 That's so anyway, we sat down and grilled her for three days 00:19:22.487 --> 00:19:25.235 straight discovered we were losing a little bit of money every month. 00:19:25.655 --> 00:19:29.885 And that had been compounding month over month for three years three or four years. 00:19:29.898 --> 00:19:32.208 At the time we were just a small little hole in the wall, so it 00:19:32.208 --> 00:19:34.328 wasn't like a insurmountable number. 00:19:34.328 --> 00:19:37.398 And in the, looking back, it looks a little bit silly, but we were in the 00:19:37.398 --> 00:19:41.532 hole and that's of when I came aboard, cuz I was doing my own thing on the 00:19:41.537 --> 00:19:44.872 side and we decided to put our efforts together in trying to make SciTech work. 00:19:44.872 --> 00:19:51.112 So from that point in time, 2012 until now we've averaged about 25% 00:19:52.402 --> 00:19:54.202 year over year growth every year. 00:19:54.202 --> 00:19:54.262 Wow. 00:19:54.343 --> 00:19:54.793 It's a lot. 00:19:55.843 --> 00:19:56.323 Yeah. 00:19:56.323 --> 00:19:59.184 And it's, all of that growth has been natural growth. 00:19:59.184 --> 00:20:03.174 Like we don't do advertising, we don't have outside sales 00:20:03.174 --> 00:20:04.764 reps even at least not anymore. 00:20:04.831 --> 00:20:06.141 So that's just business. 00:20:06.141 --> 00:20:07.671 That's coming at us, right. 00:20:08.091 --> 00:20:09.801 Because of our position in the marketplace. 00:20:09.801 --> 00:20:13.641 And we try to take care of people and stand behind our work. 00:20:13.641 --> 00:20:16.096 And it's just the way that it's come at us. 00:20:16.516 --> 00:20:23.176 And when you're seeing that sort of growth, when you're a $350,000 shop 00:20:23.232 --> 00:20:26.826 that's something you can control and it's not like earth shattering year over. 00:20:26.832 --> 00:20:29.209 But the bigger and bigger we get, we're about, 00:20:29.238 --> 00:20:33.283 Probably eight, eight times a revenue seven or eight times a revenue that 00:20:33.283 --> 00:20:37.243 we were 10 years ago and now year over year, basically if you're doing 00:20:37.243 --> 00:20:41.723 2 million a year and you see a 25% increase, that's a $500,000 jump. 00:20:42.353 --> 00:20:42.593 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:20:42.683 --> 00:20:44.847 That's a lot more dollar wise year. 00:20:44.847 --> 00:20:45.147 Luc Michaud: Right. 00:20:45.152 --> 00:20:48.884 As we're basically what we're discovering now is that the bigger and bigger you 00:20:48.884 --> 00:20:53.144 get, if you don't have things under control, like truly under control 00:20:53.211 --> 00:20:56.637 you start to hit a lot of roadblocks and challenges and all your problems. 00:20:56.652 --> 00:20:59.862 I think become, I don't know if exposed is the right word, 00:20:59.867 --> 00:21:02.352 but maybe magnified, right? 00:21:02.367 --> 00:21:07.629 Everything matters more when you're, everything's such a huge scale. 00:21:09.114 --> 00:21:09.274 Michael Riley: yeah. 00:21:09.343 --> 00:21:10.573 Bryant Gillespie: What are some of those roadblocks that 00:21:10.573 --> 00:21:11.803 you guys are running into now? 00:21:11.875 --> 00:21:13.455 Luc Michaud: So big ones are, training. 00:21:13.485 --> 00:21:16.839 Like we don't really have a proper training system in place, much like 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.901 most shops, and again, when you're going through this growth every year, all 00:21:19.901 --> 00:21:21.401 the time, you're just constantly busy. 00:21:21.911 --> 00:21:25.331 So you're plugging people into holes and you're throwing them to the wolves. 00:21:26.442 --> 00:21:27.273 , for the most part, 00:21:27.515 --> 00:21:30.425 Bryant Gillespie: think that's every side shouts training program. 00:21:30.785 --> 00:21:33.798 Like it is just a sheet of paper Hey, jump in. 00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:33.990 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 00:21:33.995 --> 00:21:37.997 You're like, here's the laminator, and you show 'em how to load a roll twice, 00:21:38.537 --> 00:21:41.504 and then you leave them in the room cuz you've got other stuff to go do. 00:21:41.594 --> 00:21:41.894 Right. 00:21:42.104 --> 00:21:42.194 Yeah. 00:21:42.224 --> 00:21:46.143 And of course by the trial and error, they're gonna 00:21:46.143 --> 00:21:47.073 mess up, we'll figure it out. 00:21:47.134 --> 00:21:51.724 Roll after roll or yard after yard of fucked up jobs that need to 00:21:51.724 --> 00:21:53.104 jump right back on the printer. 00:21:53.104 --> 00:21:55.684 Cuz we're at square one again and you. 00:21:56.974 --> 00:21:59.338 It's, there's not much else you can do in the moment. 00:21:59.438 --> 00:22:03.848 Probably five years ago, we should have been much more on top of getting 00:22:03.848 --> 00:22:07.117 those pieces of the puzzle in the place so that, staff can be trained 00:22:07.117 --> 00:22:11.179 and that there's a proper workflow and structure in place so that everybody 00:22:11.184 --> 00:22:13.249 knows what to do in any given situation. 00:22:13.249 --> 00:22:14.813 And we're in the middle of building all that. 00:22:14.904 --> 00:22:18.114 But again, the industry is so varied. 00:22:18.276 --> 00:22:22.981 Like Mike's talking about, you can do gold leaf sandblasted stuff, or 00:22:22.981 --> 00:22:24.361 you can be making hard hat ducks. 00:22:24.399 --> 00:22:28.145 Those are two vastly different worlds and there's a lot of 00:22:28.145 --> 00:22:29.525 information to put together and. 00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:33.350 in order to train people and we're in a geographic area that, 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:33.568 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:22:33.568 --> 00:22:36.648 Tell us more about the area that you guys are in, cause you guys 00:22:36.707 --> 00:22:38.147 in a unique situation there. 00:22:38.147 --> 00:22:38.507 I think 00:22:39.107 --> 00:22:41.537 Luc Michaud: so we're in Canada, first of all, which just naturally there's 00:22:42.107 --> 00:22:44.447 more space between all the main cities. 00:22:44.452 --> 00:22:44.703 Right. 00:22:44.703 --> 00:22:48.688 But we are, so we're a hundred thousand population city prince 00:22:48.688 --> 00:22:52.199 George, and it acts as the main hub for Northern British Columbia. 00:22:52.199 --> 00:22:57.352 So we service as far as eight hours away, west smaller communities out towards the 00:22:57.357 --> 00:23:01.132 coast about three, three hours south. 00:23:01.642 --> 00:23:07.192 And we're not, I guess a little bit about three hours east as well and not 00:23:07.192 --> 00:23:10.597 so much north, if we really wanted to, we could probably pursue up there, but 00:23:10.691 --> 00:23:12.221 there's a bit more competition up north. 00:23:12.221 --> 00:23:15.859 So we have a central hub and it's a pretty large geographic area. 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:17.933 If you're to drive from Williams lake to terrace, that's. 00:23:17.965 --> 00:23:19.130 11 or 12 hours. 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:19.880 Wow. 00:23:20.450 --> 00:23:21.920 Bryant Gillespie: That's a lot of ground to cover for sure. 00:23:22.910 --> 00:23:23.330 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 00:23:23.330 --> 00:23:27.634 And being geographically isolated like that too, at least previously. 00:23:27.634 --> 00:23:30.724 Now we might maybe have the benefit of being able to pick and 00:23:30.724 --> 00:23:32.524 choose work a little bit more. 00:23:32.592 --> 00:23:35.977 And we're figuring that out and evaluating that if that makes sense, 00:23:35.977 --> 00:23:40.256 but really up until this point we really had no option, but to do a 00:23:40.261 --> 00:23:41.966 little bit of everything, right? 00:23:42.326 --> 00:23:45.956 So the guy who comes in and wants a lawn sign, we're taking care of that 00:23:45.961 --> 00:23:48.506 guy and the guy who wants to wrap his vehicle, you're taking care of that 00:23:48.506 --> 00:23:54.641 guy and the people that need commercial window tint, we're doing that and channel 00:23:54.641 --> 00:23:56.825 letters, so it's a very broad spectrum. 00:23:57.335 --> 00:23:57.555 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:23:57.564 --> 00:24:01.369 I think when you're doing that much work or that, that scope of work or 00:24:01.369 --> 00:24:05.509 that breadth of work, I guess you could say it is really hard to be. 00:24:06.229 --> 00:24:10.060 Really good at all of it, so it's just Hey, we're getting the job done, but it's, 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:12.550 like some of those jobs are a struggle. 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:13.660 Luc Michaud: Yeah, for sure. 00:24:13.804 --> 00:24:16.353 And the other thing we're experiencing now is we go out all these people, 00:24:16.381 --> 00:24:19.844 me and my business partner have all the information in our heads and we 00:24:19.844 --> 00:24:24.549 know all those variables and, what does, just a simple logo deckle on 00:24:24.549 --> 00:24:29.379 a truck need to be right materials, how you're setting up your cut lines. 00:24:29.379 --> 00:24:30.559 So it's easier to weed. 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.431 What size of text is too small? 00:24:32.496 --> 00:24:36.278 What's gonna have the most impact all the way from that type of job all the 00:24:36.278 --> 00:24:41.056 way up to, one of us is responsible for understanding all the ins and 00:24:41.056 --> 00:24:43.576 outs of a monument sign, right. 00:24:43.581 --> 00:24:45.166 Which is a vastly different thing. 00:24:45.586 --> 00:24:48.616 So we have to get all this information somehow out of our heads. 00:24:48.667 --> 00:24:52.935 In a way that our staff can access it and learn it and not rely on 00:24:52.935 --> 00:24:55.869 us to be the ones that are of the gatekeepers of the knowledge, I guess. 00:24:56.349 --> 00:24:56.559 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:24:56.619 --> 00:24:59.439 What is it, tell us a little about your staff, Luke. 00:24:59.486 --> 00:25:01.886 Luc Michaud: So we've got, I believe 21 staff right now. 00:25:01.966 --> 00:25:04.886 We acquired guess the other thing I should say, yeah, we acquired a company. 00:25:04.933 --> 00:25:08.444 Our main competition approached us in the fall and asked us to make them 00:25:08.449 --> 00:25:11.045 disappear to which we kindly obliged 00:25:11.073 --> 00:25:12.883 Bryant Gillespie: I love that's a great way to put it. 00:25:12.883 --> 00:25:15.126 Luc Michaud: It's hard to say no, when your main competition says, 00:25:15.126 --> 00:25:16.736 Hey why don't you make us disappear? 00:25:17.306 --> 00:25:19.628 And so we were able to definitely benefit from that. 00:25:19.628 --> 00:25:23.078 And the biggest, one of the biggest pieces that was part of that deal that we 00:25:23.078 --> 00:25:25.208 wanted was really the staff cuz as every. 00:25:26.063 --> 00:25:30.302 Probably listening to this podcast knows, trying to find good experienced staff in 00:25:30.302 --> 00:25:33.302 the industry is it's a unicorn, right. 00:25:33.432 --> 00:25:36.880 So we brought five people over there, but then we the company we acquired was doing 00:25:36.885 --> 00:25:38.908 about 60% of the numbers that we were. 00:25:38.908 --> 00:25:42.946 So you're potentially talking a 60% jump overnight in, in volume. 00:25:43.014 --> 00:25:47.304 Which five people couldn't accurately cover for us. 00:25:47.424 --> 00:25:52.498 So we're in this spot where we've overhired in order to hopefully build 00:25:52.498 --> 00:25:55.618 out all the structure in the back end and get everything in place so that, 00:25:55.885 --> 00:26:00.348 six months, a year, two years from now, the crew that we have here can hopefully 00:26:00.353 --> 00:26:03.688 do significantly higher numbers without having to plug in many more bodies. 00:26:03.688 --> 00:26:08.000 If any at all, what was the question? 00:26:08.030 --> 00:26:08.570 Did I answer the 00:26:08.575 --> 00:26:08.870 Bryant Gillespie: question? 00:26:08.875 --> 00:26:09.150 Yeah. 00:26:09.150 --> 00:26:09.620 Yeah no. 00:26:09.620 --> 00:26:10.380 Yeah, you did great. 00:26:11.040 --> 00:26:12.360 No, we were just asking about the staff. 00:26:12.360 --> 00:26:13.710 Just trying to, oh yeah. 00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:14.070 Staff. 00:26:14.070 --> 00:26:17.312 So paint the picture of all the different pieces of the business. 00:26:17.342 --> 00:26:17.582 Okay. 00:26:17.582 --> 00:26:18.122 So we got, 00:26:18.182 --> 00:26:19.682 Luc Michaud: we've got four production guys. 00:26:19.682 --> 00:26:24.872 I've got three full-time installers, I've got three designers. 00:26:25.172 --> 00:26:30.512 I've got one pre-flight body who basically is almost exclusively dedicated to getting 00:26:30.512 --> 00:26:32.371 everything set up for rip and the cutters. 00:26:32.371 --> 00:26:37.756 We've got me and my business partner, a bookkeeper three quoting staff and 00:26:37.936 --> 00:26:41.396 currently one CSR, but we're trying to get another one to get her some help. 00:26:42.116 --> 00:26:45.874 And then we have a little specialized division where we do the local work for 00:26:45.874 --> 00:26:48.034 Patterson outdoor advertising up here. 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:49.804 So changing out billboards and stuff. 00:26:49.864 --> 00:26:52.474 So I've got one, one body dedicated for that. 00:26:55.474 --> 00:26:57.413 Bryant Gillespie: What do you get ready to say something, Mike, 00:26:58.343 --> 00:26:58.643 Michael Riley: or you just. 00:26:59.588 --> 00:27:01.508 I'm just messing with my microphone, just please. 00:27:01.508 --> 00:27:01.568 It 00:27:05.828 --> 00:27:08.565 for all of our listeners I gotta new microphone and I can't get used to 00:27:08.565 --> 00:27:09.735 having this thing right in my face. 00:27:09.885 --> 00:27:10.875 So I'm fidgeting with it. 00:27:11.955 --> 00:27:12.435 We'll probably cut 00:27:12.435 --> 00:27:12.705 Bryant Gillespie: that out. 00:27:13.185 --> 00:27:13.605 I see. 00:27:13.695 --> 00:27:17.734 Yeah, we missed the the bag of chips from the last call with Peter, where he is. 00:27:18.124 --> 00:27:22.294 Peter's got the opposite of Mike's microphone, where if you 00:27:22.294 --> 00:27:26.764 could put it in the next room and you could hear a mouse fart. 00:27:26.769 --> 00:27:28.114 Was that, is that what you said daily? 00:27:31.954 --> 00:27:32.854 Michael Riley: yeah, mine's the opposite. 00:27:32.882 --> 00:27:36.410 Bryant Gillespie: I think that's a pretty good picture of your business, Luke. 00:27:36.410 --> 00:27:38.270 And thanks for sharing that with us. 00:27:38.450 --> 00:27:40.436 What what questions do you guys have for Luke? 00:27:40.506 --> 00:27:41.946 Let's start 'em out with something easy. 00:27:43.326 --> 00:27:47.049 Maybe then we'll give him like a hard one throw 'em a softball, Mike. 00:27:47.049 --> 00:27:47.769 I know you've got some. 00:27:49.239 --> 00:27:52.749 Michael Riley: Luke, what is your growth strategy, man? 00:27:52.809 --> 00:27:54.129 How do you what is your plan for growth? 00:27:54.129 --> 00:27:55.168 What are you trying to, to do? 00:27:55.168 --> 00:27:56.488 Where are you trying to go with the company? 00:27:56.548 --> 00:27:59.272 I know you, you touched on that a little bit but kinda expand a little bit on it. 00:27:59.282 --> 00:28:03.089 Where your what's your five year and 10 year plan or goal? 00:28:03.139 --> 00:28:03.559 For growth. 00:28:03.649 --> 00:28:04.028 Yeah. 00:28:04.028 --> 00:28:07.334 Luc Michaud: We don't have anything formalized per se, but I think both 00:28:07.394 --> 00:28:11.303 me and my partner are our goal is to not retract ourselves from the 00:28:11.303 --> 00:28:13.005 business, but probably step back a bit. 00:28:13.045 --> 00:28:18.554 Maybe we can do put in some four day weeks and manage and control 00:28:18.554 --> 00:28:21.722 a little bit more so than doing the work if that makes sense. 00:28:21.872 --> 00:28:22.082 Sure. 00:28:22.082 --> 00:28:22.111 Uh, 00:28:22.161 --> 00:28:24.561 Michael Riley: How do you plan on achieving that? 00:28:25.861 --> 00:28:29.428 Luc Michaud: Yeah, so essentially we, I think we've known for a long time that 00:28:29.428 --> 00:28:33.931 SOPs and training as well as maybe some additional structures like employee 00:28:33.931 --> 00:28:38.454 handbooks or, things along these lines that again can get all the information 00:28:38.454 --> 00:28:42.924 out of our heads and be readily accessible for anybody who needs it in 00:28:42.929 --> 00:28:48.853 any moment, as well as, having a front end onboarding kind of training program. 00:28:48.853 --> 00:28:52.033 And of course you can't learn everything in the industry by 00:28:52.063 --> 00:28:53.743 doing some modules online, right? 00:28:53.743 --> 00:28:56.053 Like it's just too complex and you need to get your hands on 00:28:56.053 --> 00:28:58.183 to really, truly understand. 00:28:58.183 --> 00:29:02.823 But we really feel like getting somebody set up and having some 00:29:02.823 --> 00:29:04.803 foundational knowledge and understanding. 00:29:05.373 --> 00:29:09.603 You know what each piece of equipment is for and how it works. 00:29:09.603 --> 00:29:16.473 And some of the basic understanding and knowledge before you even get them on 00:29:16.473 --> 00:29:18.363 the table or in the production room. 00:29:18.513 --> 00:29:18.843 Right. 00:29:18.929 --> 00:29:20.322 So that's what we're working on right now. 00:29:20.322 --> 00:29:25.369 And we feel like that'll, help alleviate us from having to cause 00:29:25.369 --> 00:29:28.429 what happens, you end up your staff ends up being leashed to you, right? 00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:32.419 Is you can send them away to work on something, but they have to come 00:29:32.419 --> 00:29:38.289 back and ask you for clarification or approval or, material recommendations 00:29:38.294 --> 00:29:40.329 or whatever the case may be. 00:29:40.329 --> 00:29:46.279 And you, when you've got 20 people coming at you from six different angles all day, 00:29:46.279 --> 00:29:47.913 you really that's stressful accomplish 00:29:47.913 --> 00:29:48.423 Michael Riley: yourself. 00:29:48.499 --> 00:29:50.089 What about from a product standpoint? 00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:53.496 I know, you said you guys are a Jack of all trades when it comes 00:29:53.496 --> 00:29:54.846 to signage right now, because. 00:29:55.521 --> 00:29:56.781 You're in a smaller market. 00:29:56.781 --> 00:30:00.629 So you have to serve all the needs there as part of your growth strategy. 00:30:00.629 --> 00:30:05.956 Do you see pairing back your product offering to more of a core a core set of 00:30:05.956 --> 00:30:07.523 products or, play to your core strengths? 00:30:07.528 --> 00:30:12.201 Or do you intend to continue to expand on that, offering everything to be 00:30:12.201 --> 00:30:13.791 the one source for all your customers? 00:30:14.571 --> 00:30:18.347 Luc Michaud: I think we're trying to figure that out right now, cuz it's again, 00:30:18.347 --> 00:30:23.129 the workload is like forcing change, you know that 25% every time you turn 00:30:23.129 --> 00:30:26.455 around I often say, I don't say this to everybody, you always get the oh, we're 00:30:26.455 --> 00:30:29.900 so busy and everybody says, oh, that's a good problem to have, but it's almost 00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:33.386 not like I almost wish, and I've said to my business partner and other people 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:39.249 I just wish that two years in a row, we could do the same numbers, two years in a. 00:30:39.919 --> 00:30:43.009 So you can really get a handle on like where things are at and what 00:30:43.009 --> 00:30:46.309 you probably need to implement to handle the workload that you're at. 00:30:46.399 --> 00:30:49.519 The ne next year you could actually work on all that stuff 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:51.139 and implement at least some of it. 00:30:51.199 --> 00:30:51.529 Right. 00:30:51.979 --> 00:30:56.359 But I feel like right now there's 25% growth. 00:30:56.389 --> 00:30:58.909 And then you think you got a bunch of stuff figured out, and then the next 00:30:58.909 --> 00:31:02.599 year, 25 more percent happens and you need to reevaluate everything again, 00:31:03.019 --> 00:31:04.729 because you were never able to implement 00:31:04.729 --> 00:31:08.149 Michael Riley: anything from the, so what would happen if you guys just started 00:31:08.149 --> 00:31:09.379 saying no to certain types of work? 00:31:09.379 --> 00:31:10.519 Like you're some of your more 00:31:10.524 --> 00:31:11.969 Luc Michaud: kind of going back to the same question, we're 00:31:11.999 --> 00:31:13.079 going through that right now. 00:31:13.084 --> 00:31:15.676 We're trying to figure out, how do we adjust what we're 00:31:15.676 --> 00:31:16.829 doing and what we're learning? 00:31:16.829 --> 00:31:21.050 We ran some numbers and figured out that so we've got 310 active 00:31:21.050 --> 00:31:22.460 jobs in our system right now. 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:31.026 And we ran some numbers, turns out that 80% of those active jobs are $250 or less. 00:31:31.096 --> 00:31:34.362 And the really shocking number is when you run that and you total 00:31:34.362 --> 00:31:38.862 up all those 80% of the jobs, like volume of jobs, they actually only 00:31:38.862 --> 00:31:41.802 account for 11 or 14% of the revenue. 00:31:41.802 --> 00:31:43.452 Like I can't remember, but it was under 15. 00:31:43.566 --> 00:31:46.386 Michael Riley: So basically 80% of your time is spent on 20% of your customers. 00:31:46.866 --> 00:31:47.076 Yeah. 00:31:47.076 --> 00:31:48.756 Luc Michaud: Like for us, less than 20%. 00:31:48.816 --> 00:31:49.146 Right. 00:31:49.212 --> 00:31:53.332 And it's you guys know, if you're working in shop box or whatever, CRM you're on, 00:31:53.332 --> 00:31:59.302 like how much extra time does a job, that's $10,000 take to enter an input and 00:31:59.302 --> 00:32:05.515 get all your details into the system than a $300, partial vehicle graphic, right? 00:32:05.544 --> 00:32:10.524 The front end time to, to get all that information, qualify the customer, get 00:32:10.524 --> 00:32:14.904 it into the system, have the designer look at it, do the work, send the proof. 00:32:15.213 --> 00:32:18.783 You're really not spending that much less time on this little, 00:32:18.783 --> 00:32:19.863 tiny job than you are on. 00:32:21.048 --> 00:32:23.358 Volume or like large revenue job. 00:32:23.358 --> 00:32:23.568 Right. 00:32:23.958 --> 00:32:24.258 Bryant Gillespie: Agreed. 00:32:24.286 --> 00:32:28.169 Yeah, I feel like so many people leave out that when they start running the numbers, 00:32:28.169 --> 00:32:34.259 like you gotta factor in that time of how long is it gonna take to get the order in, 00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:36.899 get it processed, get it onto production. 00:32:36.927 --> 00:32:39.906 And so many people leave that out of the process when they're either 00:32:39.906 --> 00:32:43.591 calculating pricing or even just looking at growth and staffing needs. 00:32:43.801 --> 00:32:44.071 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 00:32:44.071 --> 00:32:48.606 And so we're looking at it like how much time are, am I, like I've got these people 00:32:48.606 --> 00:32:51.804 that I'm paying to quote and me and my business partner, quote I actually pulled 00:32:51.804 --> 00:32:55.354 myself completely outta quoting a couple weeks ago just to work on systems stuff. 00:32:55.422 --> 00:32:58.032 By the way, I forgot earlier, I do have one staff member who's 00:32:58.032 --> 00:33:01.275 solely dedicated to working on that that backend stuff with me. 00:33:01.362 --> 00:33:03.232 So we can hopefully actually make some progress. 00:33:03.247 --> 00:33:06.667 But, we've got this quoting team that we're paying and me and my business 00:33:06.667 --> 00:33:11.141 partner we're talking and it's does it even make sense to have these bodies? 00:33:13.403 --> 00:33:14.842 So the talk is how do you manage it? 00:33:14.877 --> 00:33:19.467 Do you assign one person to do jobs that are $500 or less, but then 00:33:19.467 --> 00:33:21.898 on a, and you're like, okay, then at least those jobs are getting 00:33:21.898 --> 00:33:23.818 taken care of and somebody's on it. 00:33:23.818 --> 00:33:24.058 Right. 00:33:24.418 --> 00:33:29.368 But the bigger question is, does it even make sense to allocate a person to those 00:33:29.368 --> 00:33:34.258 jobs or does it make sense to try and not get those jobs in the first place? 00:33:34.258 --> 00:33:38.488 So that those same three bodies, instead of having two bodies to focus on the 00:33:38.488 --> 00:33:44.158 bigger stuff, you could have all three bodies being focused on generally larger 00:33:44.158 --> 00:33:48.773 work it cuz if the smaller stuff only counts for 15% of your revenue and you 00:33:48.778 --> 00:33:55.673 have 20 staff, really, you shouldn't be allocating more than two bodies, right. 00:33:55.793 --> 00:33:56.873 To take care of that work. 00:33:56.903 --> 00:33:57.203 Michael Riley: Right. 00:33:57.220 --> 00:33:58.778 I'd be curious to know of that. 00:33:59.949 --> 00:34:02.679 15% of your business, that's the small nickel and dime work. 00:34:03.339 --> 00:34:08.859 How much of that at some point becomes larger, either becomes a larger customer 00:34:08.919 --> 00:34:14.718 or becomes a larger job or, through repeat work or is just a small job that a larger 00:34:14.718 --> 00:34:17.938 customer, in the grand scheme of things as larger customers is spinning with you. 00:34:18.004 --> 00:34:18.784 Yeah, I think 00:34:19.114 --> 00:34:22.475 Bryant Gillespie: I would prefer to rank customers that way instead of ranking 00:34:22.475 --> 00:34:25.535 each individual opportunity that comes through the door, look at it on like 00:34:25.535 --> 00:34:29.344 the customer level, because obviously like it adds up at the end of the day. 00:34:29.344 --> 00:34:32.944 And if it's like a lot of small repeat orders for stuff that you've 00:34:32.944 --> 00:34:35.224 already got the artwork for, why not? 00:34:35.283 --> 00:34:35.583 Yeah. 00:34:36.093 --> 00:34:36.693 As long as it's 00:34:37.593 --> 00:34:40.969 Michael Riley: profitable, I think in that case, it becomes more of a way, 00:34:40.998 --> 00:34:43.518 how you manage it versus whether or not this is the right customer, right. 00:34:43.518 --> 00:34:45.449 Fit for you or the, the right product for you to sell of. 00:34:46.134 --> 00:34:51.863 The majority of the larger sign companies that I have experience with, talking 2 00:34:51.863 --> 00:34:56.975 million plus in revenue they all break out their work in that way, the way you're 00:34:56.975 --> 00:35:01.865 talking about where you've got like a, whether it's a workflow or a process or an 00:35:01.925 --> 00:35:06.761 actual, physical department that handles that small nickel and dime work, or just 00:35:06.761 --> 00:35:08.441 all the vinyl stuff or whatever it may be. 00:35:08.499 --> 00:35:11.502 And they have a separate kind of expedited, simpler, 00:35:11.502 --> 00:35:12.672 more efficient workflow. 00:35:12.672 --> 00:35:15.052 There's a dedicated project manager to all those jobs. 00:35:15.052 --> 00:35:18.144 They don't break out the sales front end of it, where, your sales reps, whether 00:35:18.149 --> 00:35:22.434 they're selling vinyl door hours, or they're selling a $200,000 pile on 00:35:22.434 --> 00:35:24.383 sign, they're still selling the job. 00:35:24.412 --> 00:35:27.947 Who they handed off to is where the change is. 00:35:27.947 --> 00:35:29.935 If it's a small vinyl job, they hand it off to the like 00:35:30.020 --> 00:35:31.590 the retail department manager. 00:35:31.659 --> 00:35:34.989 Project manager, and then there's a small dedicated team of staff. 00:35:35.949 --> 00:35:39.309 Cranks all that work all day long and allows the rest of the shop 00:35:39.309 --> 00:35:40.809 to focus on the high dollar stuff. 00:35:40.869 --> 00:35:45.909 And that way you're not just getting rid of customers that even though 00:35:45.969 --> 00:35:49.719 the order is small, the customer themselves might not necessarily be an 00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:51.549 unprofitable customer that you wanna lose. 00:35:51.554 --> 00:35:53.199 It just is a better way of managing their work. 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.358 Coming through that doesn't pollute the, the workflow for 00:35:56.363 --> 00:35:57.618 the large high dollar jobs. 00:35:58.038 --> 00:36:00.775 It's it seems to be the industry standard way of setting it up when you get to 00:36:00.775 --> 00:36:02.143 that point and definitely is effective. 00:36:02.143 --> 00:36:04.803 And in my experience it works extremely well. 00:36:05.913 --> 00:36:08.585 Luc Michaud: That's that all works as long as the customer's willing to wait, 00:36:08.794 --> 00:36:10.405 cuz that's the other factor is time. 00:36:10.405 --> 00:36:10.645 Right? 00:36:10.735 --> 00:36:14.665 So cuz you know, it seems like a lot of these small jobs are the 00:36:14.665 --> 00:36:16.225 ones that need to happen right now. 00:36:16.315 --> 00:36:16.585 Right? 00:36:16.696 --> 00:36:23.121 So it, if the equipment's running, am I gonna prioritize that 00:36:23.121 --> 00:36:26.151 small stuff over the big stuff? 00:36:26.151 --> 00:36:28.911 Just because it's small and we can do it efficiently, but you're 00:36:28.911 --> 00:36:30.141 not really doing it efficiently. 00:36:30.171 --> 00:36:30.471 Cause kind. 00:36:32.151 --> 00:36:34.371 I think what's happened with us at least. 00:36:34.371 --> 00:36:40.248 And I don't basically all the signs point to what's happening is that, or has been 00:36:40.253 --> 00:36:45.468 happening, which we're trying to stop is that small jobs come in and they're 00:36:45.528 --> 00:36:47.298 small and they're simple and they're easy. 00:36:47.298 --> 00:36:50.178 So you feel like this can happen right now, right? 00:36:50.178 --> 00:36:53.418 Because it's small and it's simple and it's easy and you end up churning 00:36:53.478 --> 00:36:55.008 all the small front end work. 00:36:55.788 --> 00:36:59.928 So you've got something that came in on Tuesday, that's done by Friday or even 00:36:59.928 --> 00:37:03.738 the following Tuesday, but then you've got other jobs in the system that are bigger. 00:37:03.738 --> 00:37:04.728 They're $2,000. 00:37:04.728 --> 00:37:06.378 They're really not any more complicated. 00:37:06.383 --> 00:37:07.188 They're just bigger. 00:37:07.263 --> 00:37:10.592 So say a vehicle wrap or a wall mural, that's no different than making a hard 00:37:10.592 --> 00:37:15.272 hat deckle in terms of time on the printer other than slightly longer print time. 00:37:15.332 --> 00:37:15.632 Right. 00:37:15.636 --> 00:37:20.178 But that wall mural is sitting there for three weeks and meanwhile, we've done. 00:37:21.903 --> 00:37:24.663 78 little, $200 jobs, 00:37:24.777 --> 00:37:25.932 Bryant Gillespie: so where's the bottleneck there? 00:37:25.992 --> 00:37:29.095 Is it in the front end, like the sales and quoting side of it? 00:37:29.100 --> 00:37:32.465 Or is it the design side or production? 00:37:33.343 --> 00:37:34.343 you, where are things getting clogged? 00:37:34.363 --> 00:37:34.933 Peter Kourounis: It's clogging 00:37:34.933 --> 00:37:38.932 Luc Michaud: in design for sure, but not really on the small stuff, cuz we did put 00:37:38.983 --> 00:37:41.593 one specific designer on that small stuff. 00:37:41.660 --> 00:37:44.761 But the production team, like it's tricky, everybody's really green in there. 00:37:44.761 --> 00:37:48.443 And because of our lack of structure, we did have some structure and the body 00:37:48.443 --> 00:37:53.671 that I moved over into the developer role he's very like analytical and similar 00:37:53.676 --> 00:37:57.549 to me, he'll look at the root and the back end and understand the efficiency 00:37:57.549 --> 00:37:59.319 map even if it was just in his head. 00:37:59.324 --> 00:37:59.589 Right. 00:37:59.934 --> 00:38:02.544 So he understands, okay, I'm gonna laminate this stuff and then 00:38:02.544 --> 00:38:03.984 I'm gonna put it on the cutter. 00:38:04.374 --> 00:38:08.484 And while the machine's cutting it, I'm gonna go weed or mask this other stuff. 00:38:08.484 --> 00:38:08.754 Right. 00:38:09.114 --> 00:38:12.624 Whereas this new crew, they're not quite like analyzing things that way. 00:38:12.624 --> 00:38:16.210 And because we don't have the structure in there they're wrecking a lot of stuff and 00:38:16.240 --> 00:38:18.389 they're working fairly and efficiently. 00:38:18.439 --> 00:38:20.607 it's a compounding issue, to be honest with you. 00:38:20.607 --> 00:38:25.799 There's little stuff everywhere that it all stacks on top of 00:38:25.799 --> 00:38:27.325 each other to make a big problem. 00:38:27.349 --> 00:38:27.559 Michael Riley: Alright. 00:38:27.564 --> 00:38:30.306 So I have a question for you at your sales volume. 00:38:30.335 --> 00:38:34.585 I'm guessing that this is this type of work accounts for what 200, 00:38:34.585 --> 00:38:37.345 $250,000 a year in revenue, roughly. 00:38:37.525 --> 00:38:37.675 Yep. 00:38:37.945 --> 00:38:38.815 As a round number. 00:38:39.745 --> 00:38:39.955 Yep. 00:38:40.405 --> 00:38:43.615 What if you set up a sign shop within your sign shop for that work only 00:38:43.705 --> 00:38:47.125 where you have a dedicated plotter, maybe the designer for that, where 00:38:47.125 --> 00:38:49.120 you're these types of small, short. 00:38:49.900 --> 00:38:52.750 Or quick turn jobs don't even go to your main art department. 00:38:52.750 --> 00:38:53.710 You've got yeah. 00:38:54.070 --> 00:38:55.150 Designer dedicated to that. 00:38:55.150 --> 00:38:57.691 And wear the designer slash project manager hat for that type of work. 00:38:57.691 --> 00:38:58.441 And they run the plotter. 00:38:58.441 --> 00:39:01.281 Maybe you even have a or 250 grand a year in revenue. 00:39:01.281 --> 00:39:04.604 I mean, you can justify buying a $20,000 printer in a, another $10,000 00:39:04.604 --> 00:39:06.362 plotter, 30, 40 grand in equipment. 00:39:06.362 --> 00:39:12.228 And you've got a dedicated department that doesn't bog down the rest of your work. 00:39:12.228 --> 00:39:12.828 You know what I mean? 00:39:12.855 --> 00:39:15.765 Like at my shop, I didn't really quite go to that level at my shop, but I definitely 00:39:15.765 --> 00:39:20.984 had a printer dedicated to short term work or quick turn work where, you only run. 00:39:21.584 --> 00:39:25.064 The fast rush jobs on this plotter are on this printer and nothing else. 00:39:25.064 --> 00:39:27.164 And it's always sitting there dedicated, waiting, and ready for 00:39:27.164 --> 00:39:28.124 those types of jobs to come through. 00:39:28.124 --> 00:39:30.943 And they came through all the time and that allowed us to, I didn't 00:39:30.943 --> 00:39:33.613 have to worry then about where am I gonna squeeze this rush job on? 00:39:33.618 --> 00:39:36.463 I know I've got the capacity, cuz that printer is sitting there waiting for it. 00:39:36.763 --> 00:39:41.263 And it's not gonna interrupt a $30,000 job while I print a $200 sticker job. 00:39:42.133 --> 00:39:42.313 Yeah. 00:39:42.313 --> 00:39:44.053 And I've seen a lot of shops go to that level too. 00:39:44.053 --> 00:39:46.573 Like I said, I mean the best way to describe it is a sign shop within the sign 00:39:46.573 --> 00:39:50.798 shop or you create, you become a customer. 00:39:50.816 --> 00:39:53.246 Your main business becomes a customer of this little sign shop, 00:39:53.251 --> 00:39:54.519 I guess, for lack of a better term. 00:39:54.539 --> 00:39:57.299 Is that, would that be a possibility for you guys to, to structure 00:39:57.299 --> 00:40:02.879 that way that would allow you to physically separate out that work on 00:40:02.884 --> 00:40:04.829 the shop floor from high dollar work? 00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:07.747 Or is that there's a lot of logistics that go into that obviously. 00:40:08.377 --> 00:40:08.767 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 00:40:08.767 --> 00:40:09.007 I don't 00:40:09.007 --> 00:40:10.567 think it would necessarily be impossible. 00:40:10.567 --> 00:40:13.190 The, we do have a second printer that I don't even have set up 00:40:13.190 --> 00:40:14.450 right now from the acquisition. 00:40:16.265 --> 00:40:20.103 which also happens to be a latex, which kind of caters to that type of, yeah, 00:40:20.103 --> 00:40:20.433 Michael Riley: there you go. 00:40:20.433 --> 00:40:21.393 I mean, instantly dry. 00:40:21.573 --> 00:40:22.353 I mean, you can turn it up. 00:40:22.361 --> 00:40:24.575 Luc Michaud: So yeah, you could maybe set it up where you had 00:40:24.815 --> 00:40:28.235 essentially just a sales dedicated sales for that type of person. 00:40:28.235 --> 00:40:33.146 And then maybe you just had an old school, like back in the day body when 00:40:33.536 --> 00:40:37.886 me or Travis did everything just have one body that took care of project 00:40:37.886 --> 00:40:40.295 management, design production, install. 00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:43.775 And that guy's just like the guy for that, but even that's a little bit tricky. 00:40:43.775 --> 00:40:47.196 Just the thing I'm wondering about is like we do have, you asked the question 00:40:47.196 --> 00:40:51.186 earlier and I don't think I answered it is there are lots of clients, like we do 00:40:51.186 --> 00:40:56.765 work for thinning and we do work for can for which is a huge pulp and sawmill. 00:40:57.275 --> 00:41:00.245 I don't know if you guys have can for down in the states, there's probably a 00:41:00.250 --> 00:41:04.530 little bit, but basically provide huge amounts of pulp and lumber to the world. 00:41:04.594 --> 00:41:07.138 So they're a huge client, but we're generally doing at least 00:41:07.138 --> 00:41:09.118 right now, smaller orders for them. 00:41:09.238 --> 00:41:09.568 Right. 00:41:09.568 --> 00:41:12.966 But so there are situations where there's larger clients, where it still might not 00:41:12.966 --> 00:41:16.045 make sense to put it through that separate workflow, but it could maybe work. 00:41:16.045 --> 00:41:16.075 I 00:41:18.275 --> 00:41:20.695 Michael Riley: don't think it would matter what the size of the actual client is. 00:41:20.718 --> 00:41:24.048 If they're a, massive major corporation or whether they're a mom and pop shop. 00:41:24.048 --> 00:41:26.856 I mean, I think the de linear there's really more be the size of that job 00:41:26.856 --> 00:41:29.565 they're giving you at the end of the day it's work and it's gonna be built 00:41:29.565 --> 00:41:31.185 through the same company, regardless. 00:41:31.245 --> 00:41:32.625 It's just dividing out the production. 00:41:32.625 --> 00:41:34.913 So it doesn't bug down the other flows, right? 00:41:35.723 --> 00:41:35.903 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:41:35.903 --> 00:41:37.489 You're just treating them different on the front 00:41:37.489 --> 00:41:38.209 Michael Riley: end of things. 00:41:38.749 --> 00:41:40.339 And they would never even know what was happening. 00:41:40.339 --> 00:41:42.752 Like the customer doesn't need to know that's the case or the way it's set up. 00:41:42.820 --> 00:41:44.110 They just know they're getting their shit faster. 00:41:44.830 --> 00:41:45.460 Yeah, for sure. 00:41:46.030 --> 00:41:48.460 Bryant Gillespie: Do you get any pushback on your pricing, Luke, 00:41:48.910 --> 00:41:50.720 especially for these smaller jobs? 00:41:50.764 --> 00:41:54.528 Luc Michaud: The smaller jobs you sometimes can, but we've recently 00:41:54.528 --> 00:41:57.961 decided particularly, the other conversation that's actually happening 00:41:58.051 --> 00:42:03.106 internally with my business partner is what, if we don't do what if we 00:42:03.111 --> 00:42:08.022 just go straight B2B and we don't do any people off the street work, right. 00:42:08.022 --> 00:42:10.295 Could be something that would help cuz it tends to be a lot of that 00:42:10.295 --> 00:42:11.795 personal stuff is smaller stuff. 00:42:11.795 --> 00:42:12.021 Right. 00:42:12.021 --> 00:42:13.984 And you just could put it out 00:42:13.984 --> 00:42:14.404 Michael Riley: that way. 00:42:14.734 --> 00:42:16.774 That was a policy that I enacted in my shop. 00:42:17.554 --> 00:42:21.514 I, we just had a strict, if you're not a business, we won't do work with you. 00:42:21.574 --> 00:42:22.564 We'll refer you away. 00:42:23.164 --> 00:42:23.524 Yeah. 00:42:23.584 --> 00:42:26.376 And I always made sure I had a, a book of good referrals for these people. 00:42:26.381 --> 00:42:26.646 Right. 00:42:26.646 --> 00:42:30.156 Like I, I didn't want to just kick into the curb and tell 'em you're outta 00:42:30.156 --> 00:42:31.832 luck, but that makes a big difference. 00:42:31.832 --> 00:42:33.429 I, we all know that if you're working for. 00:42:33.929 --> 00:42:35.819 The individual who wants a sticker for his car. 00:42:35.879 --> 00:42:37.679 I mean, he's, he is gonna drive you nuts on that. 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:39.689 Cause they want it to be perfect and they're gonna be picky and 00:42:39.749 --> 00:42:40.576 they don't know what they want. 00:42:40.576 --> 00:42:41.580 And that's a huge bottleneck. 00:42:41.580 --> 00:42:43.170 It still has to be under a hundred bucks. 00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:43.740 Right. 00:42:43.740 --> 00:42:44.670 And they want it cheap too. 00:42:44.670 --> 00:42:45.330 I mean, yeah. 00:42:45.390 --> 00:42:47.460 And it's just the nature working for the general public. 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:47.850 Yeah. 00:42:47.850 --> 00:42:48.990 Or business owners generally. 00:42:48.990 --> 00:42:49.920 I mean, this isn't a 00:42:50.670 --> 00:42:53.358 Luc Michaud: obvious, we don't have a formal policy, but what we've done 00:42:53.358 --> 00:42:56.928 recently is we've just started quoting those jobs, like stupid high, right. 00:42:57.064 --> 00:42:57.354 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 00:42:57.464 --> 00:42:58.304 That's a good way to do it. 00:42:58.339 --> 00:42:59.363 One of the things minimum. 00:42:59.873 --> 00:43:00.113 Yeah. 00:43:00.118 --> 00:43:03.503 One of the things that worked for us in the old shop was just, it like 00:43:03.713 --> 00:43:07.063 shut the door, it's appointment only if you've got somebody who 00:43:07.093 --> 00:43:08.664 can you could either shift that too. 00:43:08.664 --> 00:43:12.992 Or especially if you guys are bottlenecked in production shutting the door and 00:43:13.212 --> 00:43:15.027 walking away from that type of work. 00:43:15.117 --> 00:43:16.644 If they can't get in, they can't bother you. 00:43:16.644 --> 00:43:18.422 , Michael Riley: I'm a big proponent of that as well, because the. 00:43:18.451 --> 00:43:21.031 I don't care what size your shop is. 00:43:21.211 --> 00:43:24.691 There is absolutely nobody on this planet who needs a channel letter sign, right? 00:43:24.691 --> 00:43:26.486 This second, it's a long term project. 00:43:26.486 --> 00:43:27.806 You don't knock 'em out overnight. 00:43:28.166 --> 00:43:29.106 It takes a while. 00:43:29.140 --> 00:43:30.520 There's a lot of hoops to jump through. 00:43:31.270 --> 00:43:33.880 It's no matter what that customer thinks, it's not a rush. 00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.040 If their hair's not on fire, they don't need to walk in your 00:43:36.040 --> 00:43:37.090 door and talk to you about that. 00:43:37.090 --> 00:43:37.270 Right? 00:43:37.270 --> 00:43:38.410 This second, they just don't. 00:43:38.410 --> 00:43:41.410 And it's gonna be an interruption to your business, set an appointment, talk to 'em 00:43:41.410 --> 00:43:43.471 about it, clear some time to do it right. 00:43:44.341 --> 00:43:49.711 And the larger you get, the less walk in business is critical to your success. 00:43:49.711 --> 00:43:53.461 People just don't walk in up the street and say, Hey, I need a $200,000 00:43:53.461 --> 00:43:54.811 pile on sign and I need it right now. 00:43:56.911 --> 00:43:57.931 Bryant Gillespie: That happens at fast sciences. 00:44:03.526 --> 00:44:04.186 Michael Riley: I didn't say this time, 00:44:04.456 --> 00:44:08.896 Peter Kourounis: Peter lay off, there is nothing wrong with a 00:44:09.476 --> 00:44:14.356 structured well orchestrated business model that you just have to follow 00:44:14.746 --> 00:44:16.936 everything that Luke's problems are. 00:44:16.941 --> 00:44:19.486 I have it already because it's a system. 00:44:19.486 --> 00:44:21.886 It's a system that they got up on that you buy into. 00:44:21.886 --> 00:44:22.366 You want SOPs? 00:44:23.176 --> 00:44:23.926 I got it. 00:44:24.046 --> 00:44:24.946 You want training? 00:44:25.036 --> 00:44:26.056 I got it. 00:44:30.196 --> 00:44:31.036 my Lord. 00:44:31.036 --> 00:44:32.266 You guys give it a bad name. 00:44:32.836 --> 00:44:33.016 You've 00:44:33.021 --> 00:44:34.336 Bryant Gillespie: been sitting on that one for a while. 00:44:35.776 --> 00:44:35.896 I 00:44:35.896 --> 00:44:36.686 Peter Kourounis: got it. 00:44:36.686 --> 00:44:38.468 Luc Michaud: That's why he's been quiet for half an hour. 00:44:39.818 --> 00:44:40.808 Peter Kourounis: not doing I've. 00:44:40.808 --> 00:44:41.438 I've been sitting here. 00:44:41.438 --> 00:44:43.718 I've been sitting here taking notes. 00:44:43.808 --> 00:44:44.348 Okay. 00:44:44.708 --> 00:44:49.748 I like to learn a lot about a different type of sign shop, particularly one across 00:44:49.748 --> 00:44:51.998 the border that I know very little about. 00:44:52.298 --> 00:44:55.328 I, what I know about Luke is that he owns a sign shop and 00:44:55.328 --> 00:44:56.528 that he rides a motorcycle. 00:44:56.918 --> 00:44:57.788 That's all I know. 00:44:58.328 --> 00:44:59.708 I don't know much more. 00:45:00.023 --> 00:45:00.413 And that. 00:45:00.413 --> 00:45:02.755 So I'm trying to take a deep dive into another man's 00:45:02.755 --> 00:45:03.955 Bryant Gillespie: perspective into what 00:45:04.435 --> 00:45:05.635 Peter Kourounis: makes his shop work. 00:45:06.295 --> 00:45:10.572 That's why I'm remaining silent, but then you gotta drop fast signs like that, man. 00:45:10.572 --> 00:45:12.201 Bryant Gillespie: I just trying to get a reaction out. 00:45:12.201 --> 00:45:15.771 You've been sitting there playing, I saw you switch the camera like six times. 00:45:15.771 --> 00:45:16.821 I just wonder what's going on 00:45:17.931 --> 00:45:20.181 Michael Riley: since I'm on a lawsuit kick today, I wonder how long it's gonna 00:45:20.181 --> 00:45:23.271 take for the fast sciences corporation to Sue us for shitting all over the 00:45:24.921 --> 00:45:27.741 Luc Michaud: slander I got no problem with fast signs. 00:45:27.741 --> 00:45:29.931 I just, I wouldn't name my company fast signs. 00:45:29.936 --> 00:45:33.621 Cause I feel like you're just inviting the wrong type of customer, 00:45:34.201 --> 00:45:36.058 Michael Riley: I think it depends on the type of business you wanna be in and 00:45:36.058 --> 00:45:37.228 the type of customers you wanna serve. 00:45:37.228 --> 00:45:40.599 I mean, I think there's definitely a huge market there for quick turn sign 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:43.073 engine, trade shows and storefront lettering and stuff like that. 00:45:43.078 --> 00:45:44.624 I mean, I definitely think there is I cannot. 00:45:44.984 --> 00:45:48.656 And this is speaking from not ever having been fast signs or anything like that. 00:45:48.656 --> 00:45:52.586 I just cannot imagine trying to compete in the larger electrical 00:45:52.586 --> 00:45:59.139 sign market or, or higher dollar jobs when your lead is fast turnaround. 00:45:59.169 --> 00:46:00.969 Cause those jobs are just, they're slow. 00:46:01.029 --> 00:46:05.342 I mean, they're long term slow long lead time jobs. 00:46:05.432 --> 00:46:06.898 And I just, I always have to wonder, 00:46:07.618 --> 00:46:08.728 Peter Kourounis: let me put this to bed. 00:46:09.388 --> 00:46:09.808 Okay. 00:46:09.808 --> 00:46:13.612 This is this this episode is not a fast signs bashing episode, 00:46:14.092 --> 00:46:15.022 but let me absolutely not. 00:46:15.922 --> 00:46:17.812 Let me put this to bed for you guys. 00:46:17.812 --> 00:46:20.062 And I'm not going to bat for fast signs. 00:46:20.088 --> 00:46:24.198 I'm a fast signs franchise owner, because I believe in a systematic 00:46:24.203 --> 00:46:26.748 approach, they have a very good system. 00:46:27.548 --> 00:46:34.068 When you implement a system, whether it's a sales system, a marketing system, 00:46:34.278 --> 00:46:39.078 a lead generating system, and it all works really well together in UN. 00:46:40.248 --> 00:46:41.328 Guess what you can do. 00:46:42.108 --> 00:46:44.868 You can turn signs around faster than most. 00:46:45.918 --> 00:46:51.138 Whether it's a parking sign, whether it's a printed sign or a post panel, 00:46:51.143 --> 00:46:57.348 sign, it allow having a system allows you to focus on creating a product 00:46:57.353 --> 00:47:01.658 faster than most people that are spinning their wheels in the mud. 00:47:01.671 --> 00:47:04.339 Luc Michaud: So the divert I, Pete and apology, I apologize. 00:47:05.329 --> 00:47:07.069 That's the goal I'm trying to reach. 00:47:07.069 --> 00:47:12.229 That's the crest of the mountaintop fast signs is where I want to be. 00:47:12.304 --> 00:47:13.354 Michael Riley: Peter, I have a question for you. 00:47:13.354 --> 00:47:14.942 I'll try and ride their coattails. 00:47:14.942 --> 00:47:18.608 I have a question for Peter, cuz we're on the topic of beating up fast signs 00:47:18.662 --> 00:47:21.147 and I don't mean to get us off topic, but like this is like a legitimate question. 00:47:21.147 --> 00:47:25.797 And I'm curious, does the name fast signs, prime your customers for 00:47:25.797 --> 00:47:28.737 expecting unrealistic turnaround times on certain types of jobs? 00:47:28.774 --> 00:47:32.744 That's the biggest issue I have with fast signs is actually the name of the company. 00:47:33.074 --> 00:47:36.164 It, I believe it sets up customers for unrealistic expectations, especially 00:47:36.164 --> 00:47:39.927 if they're going out to get bids on, let's say they want a bid on a monument 00:47:39.927 --> 00:47:43.463 sign and they're going to two really large electrical sign companies. 00:47:43.474 --> 00:47:47.966 And the fast signs are they, is that setting them up to expect 00:47:49.046 --> 00:47:51.956 unrealistic turnaround times from other sign companies? 00:47:51.956 --> 00:47:52.796 I guess, you know what I mean? 00:47:52.796 --> 00:47:53.394 Is it's sign 00:47:53.394 --> 00:47:55.254 Bryant Gillespie: money, Mike, cranking up the heat 00:47:56.934 --> 00:47:58.802 Michael Riley: and I'm not saying that like bad mouth, fast signs. 00:47:58.807 --> 00:47:59.732 I'm genuinely curious. 00:47:59.737 --> 00:48:00.872 I don't, I've always wondered that. 00:48:00.872 --> 00:48:04.247 And I don't know from from your perspective, owning a 00:48:04.247 --> 00:48:07.457 fast sciences franchise, does that create problems for you? 00:48:07.517 --> 00:48:10.847 Cuz it, to me in my mind, it seems like it would cuz like the world that I come 00:48:10.847 --> 00:48:15.179 from a channel letter sign is an eight to 12 week lead time period at a minimum. 00:48:15.179 --> 00:48:17.519 If you want a monument sign, you're looking at eight to 12 weeks. 00:48:19.664 --> 00:48:25.064 I, is that creating, is it creating false sense of urgency in the customer's mind? 00:48:26.024 --> 00:48:28.754 And is it devaluing? 00:48:29.894 --> 00:48:32.099 What, and I'm not talking about like the final store hours or 00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:32.879 parking signs, stuff like that. 00:48:32.884 --> 00:48:34.859 I'm talking about high dollar signage. 00:48:35.249 --> 00:48:36.719 Does that devalue that signage? 00:48:39.809 --> 00:48:42.029 Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna, can I jump in for on this one? 00:48:42.869 --> 00:48:43.079 Sure. 00:48:43.289 --> 00:48:44.009 I'm gonna take you. 00:48:44.009 --> 00:48:45.650 I'm gonna take your side pilot on top. 00:48:45.676 --> 00:48:45.892 No. 00:48:45.892 --> 00:48:48.664 I really think it's just about getting people through the door. 00:48:49.414 --> 00:48:49.820 Really? 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:53.357 As you got two hypothetical sign companies, nothing about either one 00:48:53.357 --> 00:48:55.907 of them, one is called fast signs. 00:48:56.387 --> 00:48:57.677 The other is. 00:48:58.607 --> 00:49:02.962 John's signs or, whatever, the awful business names that some 00:49:02.967 --> 00:49:03.952 people come up with are sign 00:49:03.952 --> 00:49:04.933 Peter Kourounis: shots, sign tech. 00:49:07.523 --> 00:49:10.543 Bryant Gillespie: Hey, now shots fired. 00:49:11.293 --> 00:49:12.583 Which one are you gonna pick? 00:49:12.618 --> 00:49:14.718 Peter Kourounis: I, no, I can't fact truth here. 00:49:14.718 --> 00:49:18.223 A fact, I created a business model called sign techs which 00:49:18.223 --> 00:49:20.513 was a sign service franchise. 00:49:20.513 --> 00:49:23.271 So I don't, I actually really like the name little fact there 00:49:23.271 --> 00:49:24.741 about what I've done in the past. 00:49:25.161 --> 00:49:25.491 All right. 00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:29.369 Let me answer your question, Mike and I'm gonna use Brian's analogy. 00:49:29.369 --> 00:49:29.969 Yes. 00:49:30.149 --> 00:49:35.249 From a customer's perspective, it, people can resonate with the 00:49:35.254 --> 00:49:38.069 branding of a name, like fast signs. 00:49:38.189 --> 00:49:43.199 If they know nothing about company a, or company B, the name 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:47.309 represents what people are looking for, which is a quick turnaround. 00:49:48.194 --> 00:49:51.554 Very simplistic branding approach red in blue. 00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:54.107 It's got that American feel to it. 00:49:54.107 --> 00:49:54.437 Right? 00:49:56.297 --> 00:49:59.164 But from, to answer your question a little bit more deeper, listen, 00:49:59.524 --> 00:50:04.594 like we, fast signs is known for certain type of product. 00:50:05.014 --> 00:50:09.950 In fact the executives that might listen to this podcast would be the first to 00:50:09.950 --> 00:50:17.150 tell you that their approach is going after vinyl related signs, interior 00:50:17.150 --> 00:50:21.320 decor, that's their entire philosophy. 00:50:21.800 --> 00:50:26.562 Now what you don't know about fair signs is that is, that makes up a, a 00:50:26.567 --> 00:50:29.892 significant percentage of their stores. 00:50:29.897 --> 00:50:33.882 So all you guys that give fair signs, a bad name, that's the model 00:50:33.882 --> 00:50:39.342 that you understand, vinyl related production, 1500 square foot building. 00:50:39.747 --> 00:50:46.227 Quick turnaround vending 30% of their outsourcing 30% of their work, but there 00:50:46.227 --> 00:50:53.457 are a significant amount of us, I'd say less than a hundred worldwide that, or I 00:50:53.457 --> 00:50:58.497 should say, not worldwide you in the us that manufacture just like you all do. 00:50:59.217 --> 00:50:59.607 Right? 00:50:59.607 --> 00:51:04.767 So getting a monument sign, getting an on and getting a channel letter, sign, 00:51:04.767 --> 00:51:07.137 a sign cabinet made and fabricated. 00:51:07.527 --> 00:51:14.200 We do it, but do it a little bit, again, I'm gonna fall back on the 00:51:14.200 --> 00:51:18.310 same terminology with a bit of a more systematic approach that allows us 00:51:18.310 --> 00:51:25.300 to quote the customer faster, get a mock up, done faster, schematic 00:51:25.300 --> 00:51:30.550 done faster, potentially turn that product around faster as well. 00:51:30.970 --> 00:51:34.720 So in a way it resonates with the name, but. 00:51:36.505 --> 00:51:44.517 Fast signs in general the franchise is built around systems and processes that 00:51:44.817 --> 00:51:49.677 are designed to make you run a little bit more efficiently than a typical 00:51:49.707 --> 00:51:52.347 independent sign shop owner would. 00:51:53.127 --> 00:51:55.047 Now I'm not saying it's better or worse. 00:51:55.052 --> 00:52:01.227 What I'm saying is that when you buy into a franchise, it's because you want those 00:52:01.227 --> 00:52:08.517 things, want those items that are going to allow the owner to focus more on their 00:52:08.517 --> 00:52:13.532 business, rather than on the things that are Luke here is looking to grow with. 00:52:14.342 --> 00:52:18.872 If I'm looking to grow, I just speak to my franchise coach about what's 00:52:18.872 --> 00:52:20.222 the next step to help me grow. 00:52:21.152 --> 00:52:24.362 And they're gonna pave the way and point that way for me and 00:52:24.362 --> 00:52:25.922 all and other franchise owners. 00:52:25.922 --> 00:52:30.924 So this, listen, I'm not turning this into a buy a franchise episode here but. 00:52:31.839 --> 00:52:35.739 At the end of the day, some of the issues that you have as an 00:52:35.739 --> 00:52:39.039 independent sign shop owner are solved within the franchise model. 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:41.897 Bryant Gillespie: So it's maybe what you guys can do. 00:52:41.970 --> 00:52:44.160 Luc Michaud: Take somebody clip that and trigger. 00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:49.346 I'm gonna use the young kids clip that you can take, that you should be taking that 00:52:49.346 --> 00:52:52.886 to fast signs corporate, and see if you guys can get a sponsor for the podcast. 00:52:53.216 --> 00:52:56.306 Cause that was like, there go the best, fast sign commercials I ever heard. 00:52:56.350 --> 00:52:58.699 Michael Riley: I don't think they'll pull that sponsorship so fast. 00:52:58.699 --> 00:52:59.749 As soon as I open my mouths. 00:52:59.793 --> 00:53:03.963 Bryant Gillespie: If Peter can easily defend fast signs in the 00:53:03.963 --> 00:53:05.703 face of sign money Mike's attack. 00:53:06.123 --> 00:53:08.673 I mean, what better average easement is or 00:53:09.693 --> 00:53:11.016 Michael Riley: Peter I appreciate that response and 00:53:11.016 --> 00:53:11.877 that's what I was looking for. 00:53:11.877 --> 00:53:13.684 And I honestly, like I don't have anything against fast signs. 00:53:13.684 --> 00:53:16.354 I have something against my local fast signs, which is why I referred them 00:53:16.359 --> 00:53:20.104 all a race car as a whole, I don't have anything against fast signs. 00:53:20.104 --> 00:53:21.664 I'm just always curious what. 00:53:23.204 --> 00:53:28.354 how the name and the marketing around fast signs affects the perceiving. 00:53:28.378 --> 00:53:29.933 Peter Kourounis: I think it customer value. 00:53:29.933 --> 00:53:30.733 I think it benefits. 00:53:30.743 --> 00:53:34.613 I think it benefits the owner of having such a simple branding. 00:53:35.693 --> 00:53:35.783 Sure. 00:53:35.783 --> 00:53:38.873 I mean, that's a name that people can report that, but it helps us, right. 00:53:39.023 --> 00:53:41.603 If you're always, if it's all about sales, right? 00:53:41.603 --> 00:53:45.443 If it's about lead generating, then having a simplistic name, which 00:53:45.443 --> 00:53:48.353 customers can relate to is a very important piece to the puzzle. 00:53:50.183 --> 00:53:52.823 We should bring on some executives on the fast science team 00:53:52.823 --> 00:53:54.773 and see what they think next 00:53:54.773 --> 00:53:55.253 Michael Riley: episode. 00:53:55.343 --> 00:53:56.513 Oh, that'll be interesting. 00:53:56.843 --> 00:53:57.113 Bryant Gillespie: All right. 00:53:57.203 --> 00:54:00.203 I'm gonna reign you guys in, bring this back on topic. 00:54:00.224 --> 00:54:01.827 So we've established Luke. 00:54:01.917 --> 00:54:03.297 It's all about systems. 00:54:03.687 --> 00:54:09.037 You need to be quoting faster, producing faster, all that. 00:54:09.050 --> 00:54:12.508 And I, from chatting with you both here today, and a couple 00:54:12.508 --> 00:54:16.088 conversations we've had in the past, you understand the need for this. 00:54:16.157 --> 00:54:18.107 Hey, we've gotta systemize the business. 00:54:18.887 --> 00:54:19.067 Yep. 00:54:19.187 --> 00:54:20.487 Why aren't you there now? 00:54:20.537 --> 00:54:22.952 It doesn't seem like this is a brand new thing 00:54:23.582 --> 00:54:23.852 Luc Michaud: yeah. 00:54:23.857 --> 00:54:27.467 No, I think I'm definitely like, I've always been a systems guy and an 00:54:27.467 --> 00:54:30.767 efficiency guy, like before I worked at the sign shop, I was an operations 00:54:30.767 --> 00:54:34.582 manager at the brick which is a large furniture franchise chain up in Canada. 00:54:35.212 --> 00:54:35.842 And 00:54:35.942 --> 00:54:38.295 Peter Kourounis: you guys got a lot of funny businesses in Canada. 00:54:38.295 --> 00:54:38.490 Luc Michaud: Funny. 00:54:38.490 --> 00:54:39.090 In what way? 00:54:39.780 --> 00:54:43.000 Peter Kourounis: I've never heard of a pulp business or 00:54:43.059 --> 00:54:44.975 Luc Michaud: a pulp or a, you don't know what pulp is? 00:54:44.975 --> 00:54:45.035 Yeah. 00:54:45.755 --> 00:54:46.055 Oh no. 00:54:46.295 --> 00:54:48.275 Fran pulp is where paper comes from. 00:54:48.485 --> 00:54:49.475 You need to get up on that, man. 00:54:49.564 --> 00:54:53.164 When you wipe your ass later today, you can think about 00:54:53.164 --> 00:54:55.054 canned for in prince George. 00:54:55.504 --> 00:54:56.104 Think about Luke 00:54:56.161 --> 00:55:00.361 Peter Kourounis: can four and then the brick sounds like some 00:55:00.361 --> 00:55:03.521 really interesting branding going on up there across the border. 00:55:03.547 --> 00:55:05.382 So you know what the tie-in is to the brick. 00:55:05.382 --> 00:55:06.102 Bryant Gillespie: He still salty about 00:55:09.722 --> 00:55:10.202 Luc Michaud: the F side. 00:55:10.202 --> 00:55:10.205 So yeah. 00:55:10.205 --> 00:55:13.652 Anyway, so the brick started in Edmonton and the guy who owns the brick, his 00:55:13.652 --> 00:55:15.782 son played on the Edmonton Oilers. 00:55:15.851 --> 00:55:19.584 There's a weird tie in, but anyways yeah, so anyways, I've had the 00:55:19.584 --> 00:55:21.054 systems, knowledge and stuff. 00:55:21.097 --> 00:55:21.895 I've seen it. 00:55:21.912 --> 00:55:27.630 But I think probably, when said this on the mastermind calls to the 00:55:27.630 --> 00:55:32.569 groups, but, either way it's, I think most of us that get into the signed 00:55:32.569 --> 00:55:37.290 business are, maybe like you Mike, you're a designer first and foremost. 00:55:37.290 --> 00:55:40.977 Or, my business partner started the company, our company. 00:55:41.967 --> 00:55:45.027 He was working at a sign shop, basically running the show as a 00:55:45.027 --> 00:55:47.617 manager, his boss stopped paying him. 00:55:47.617 --> 00:55:48.923 And he said, you know what? 00:55:48.952 --> 00:55:50.447 I'm not getting paid anyways. 00:55:50.687 --> 00:55:52.517 Why don't I just go start my own thing? 00:55:52.907 --> 00:55:53.237 Right. 00:55:53.307 --> 00:55:56.859 And others of us are people like you say, or said earlier, you wanna make 00:55:56.859 --> 00:55:58.659 cool shit because you can make cool shit. 00:55:58.659 --> 00:56:01.464 And you're either a craftsman or a trades person. 00:56:02.064 --> 00:56:07.794 And I think we all, that's where for most of us, I think it originates 00:56:07.816 --> 00:56:11.572 is that's the goal is to make cool shit and hopefully make some money. 00:56:11.602 --> 00:56:11.932 Right. 00:56:12.232 --> 00:56:15.840 But none of us or I should say the majority of us don't really 00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:17.370 understand the making money part. 00:56:17.490 --> 00:56:17.730 Right. 00:56:17.730 --> 00:56:23.160 We understand the making the cool shit part, but making money part is something 00:56:23.165 --> 00:56:24.420 you have to learn along the way. 00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:28.207 And I think it's hard to do when you're in the weeds, like it's busy 00:56:28.657 --> 00:56:32.117 and you're focused on getting the stuff done and taking care of the. 00:56:32.178 --> 00:56:38.851 And when you're putting in, 12, 14, 16, 18 hour days, 5, 6, 7 days a week, 00:56:38.875 --> 00:56:40.920 it's hard to find the time to do that. 00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:44.852 Particularly, if you don't have the knowledge set or the knowledge base, 00:56:44.852 --> 00:56:46.952 like it's a really daunting task. 00:56:46.952 --> 00:56:52.563 Like it's a lot of work and, I wish we had done it when we were smaller 00:56:52.593 --> 00:56:56.883 and the scope wasn't so huge now that we are as big as we are the scope 00:56:56.883 --> 00:57:01.887 of the project that we need to, the structure that we need to put in place. 00:57:01.887 --> 00:57:02.660 Like it's a lot. 00:57:02.810 --> 00:57:03.110 Right. 00:57:03.650 --> 00:57:06.021 And when you're just trying to take care of your customers and get the 00:57:06.021 --> 00:57:10.333 work done, it's hard to even research what you're supposed to be doing on the 00:57:10.338 --> 00:57:12.463 other side, which is the business side. 00:57:12.463 --> 00:57:12.673 Right. 00:57:12.769 --> 00:57:14.989 So I think most of us are tradespeople and that's really. 00:57:17.044 --> 00:57:19.340 a lot of shops probably find themself, 00:57:19.369 --> 00:57:20.839 Stuck it stuck in the middle of it. 00:57:20.865 --> 00:57:23.158 Bryant Gillespie: I agree with what you said a hundred percent. 00:57:23.196 --> 00:57:23.406 Yeah. 00:57:23.406 --> 00:57:27.646 And we've Peter and Michael and I have talked circles around 00:57:27.646 --> 00:57:29.416 this thing for a long time. 00:57:29.431 --> 00:57:34.160 And strangely enough, it does come back to the, like the Fize thing 00:57:34.160 --> 00:57:40.052 where like a lot of the franchisees fast signs is targeting, people 00:57:40.052 --> 00:57:44.523 who are leaving a career in middle management or, people that, that come 00:57:44.528 --> 00:57:45.903 from the business side of things. 00:57:46.623 --> 00:57:47.673 and they're selling them. 00:57:47.673 --> 00:57:47.943 Okay. 00:57:47.943 --> 00:57:53.238 Hey, this is a high margin industry and Hey, you can run this small business. 00:57:53.275 --> 00:57:54.583 It's all there for you. 00:57:54.613 --> 00:57:58.227 Whereas like you said, a lot of independent owners are , they either 00:57:58.227 --> 00:58:02.187 worked at a sign shop previously for some other owner that sucked 00:58:02.187 --> 00:58:04.077 or didn't want to pay them enough. 00:58:04.167 --> 00:58:09.177 And the rest of these guys know, like the only growth, if you're the number 00:58:09.177 --> 00:58:13.857 two or number three guy in a small shine shop is starting your own outfit. 00:58:14.277 --> 00:58:17.877 So you get really good at the technical side of it producing the size, 00:58:17.877 --> 00:58:19.947 designing stuff, putting it together. 00:58:20.577 --> 00:58:26.817 But yeah, if you worked under a, an owner who didn't have a good handle 00:58:26.817 --> 00:58:29.967 on the business side, you probably inherited some of those things as well. 00:58:31.557 --> 00:58:31.737 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 00:58:31.742 --> 00:58:35.268 Or you bought his company cuz he was sick of it and burnt out , unloaded his 00:58:35.268 --> 00:58:38.898 problems onto you without telling you, and then you're just perpetuating the cycle. 00:58:38.963 --> 00:58:40.734 How many shops change hands? 00:58:41.814 --> 00:58:46.411 How shops that aren't making money a lot, a lot there, there's a lot 00:58:46.411 --> 00:58:47.791 of turnover in the industry, right? 00:58:47.791 --> 00:58:51.331 There's always shops, opening and closing and changing hands. 00:58:51.331 --> 00:58:55.603 And I think a lot of that is just rooted in the fact that people aren't making 00:58:55.603 --> 00:59:00.632 money and they don't know what to fix and they get burnt out because, as a 00:59:00.632 --> 00:59:06.896 tradesperson, it's easy to focus on the trade and that's not how you make money. 00:59:10.676 --> 00:59:12.266 Michael Riley: What I'll argue what you just said there, Luke, 00:59:13.166 --> 00:59:15.386 I think being a trades person, especially if you wanna go to the 00:59:15.386 --> 00:59:19.093 next level and produce real signage, I think you need to know the trade. 00:59:19.363 --> 00:59:21.163 I think you need to be the business owner as well. 00:59:21.163 --> 00:59:22.633 And I think that's the hard part is. 00:59:23.263 --> 00:59:27.761 Is wearing both of those hats, but I genuinely don't think that you can go 00:59:27.761 --> 00:59:32.231 to the next level if you're not in some way, shape or form a trades person, 00:59:32.231 --> 00:59:36.024 or at least put a trades person in an upper management role that can steer 00:59:36.029 --> 00:59:39.564 the direction of a sign company, because you've gotta be a sign maker to be yeah. 00:59:39.564 --> 00:59:40.074 In assignment. 00:59:40.074 --> 00:59:43.134 Luc Michaud: I think what I meant more so was that if the business piece is 00:59:43.134 --> 00:59:43.614 Michael Riley: missing. 00:59:44.184 --> 00:59:44.514 Luc Michaud: Sure. 00:59:44.574 --> 00:59:45.024 Right, right. 00:59:45.054 --> 00:59:49.751 You're ne you're never going to if you don't either actively understand that 00:59:49.751 --> 00:59:53.831 you need to become a businessman or if you're not a businessman already, like if 00:59:53.831 --> 00:59:58.826 you have no motivation to, to sort that out, you're just never gonna get there. 00:59:58.826 --> 01:00:00.146 And some guys just do it naturally. 01:00:00.146 --> 01:00:00.986 They're just street smart. 01:00:00.986 --> 01:00:01.226 Right. 01:00:01.226 --> 01:00:03.014 And they're like, I don't give a fuck. 01:00:03.014 --> 01:00:05.786 I'm not gonna do this sign if I'm not gonna make stupid money on it. 01:00:06.086 --> 01:00:11.126 So it's just me in my shop and I'm gonna charge you $5,000 for this sign. 01:00:11.131 --> 01:00:12.236 Cause that's what I want to charge you. 01:00:12.241 --> 01:00:14.486 And if you don't want to pay it, what do I care? 01:00:14.546 --> 01:00:14.846 Right. 01:00:14.925 --> 01:00:16.095 Some guys just get that. 01:00:16.305 --> 01:00:18.135 But I think a lot of us get stuck in the trap. 01:00:18.645 --> 01:00:21.645 We have to be competitive and we're new to the market. 01:00:21.645 --> 01:00:24.615 So we gotta be cheaper than the other guys so we can win some business. 01:00:24.622 --> 01:00:27.472 And those are really like in hindsight, we did that, right? 01:00:27.772 --> 01:00:30.902 In hindsight, those are faulty models. 01:00:30.902 --> 01:00:32.182 You can't make money that way. 01:00:32.932 --> 01:00:36.801 And ultimately you either learn to make those adjustments or you fail, right. 01:00:36.981 --> 01:00:38.871 Or you just never make money and you get burnt out. 01:00:38.871 --> 01:00:39.201 And 01:00:40.611 --> 01:00:42.180 Michael Riley: what you just said there, I think is like 01:00:42.180 --> 01:00:43.200 it hits the nail on the head. 01:00:43.200 --> 01:00:46.271 Like the guys that know this is what I want for it. 01:00:46.271 --> 01:00:47.704 This is how long it's gonna take it or leave it. 01:00:48.244 --> 01:00:49.384 I don't care either way. 01:00:49.534 --> 01:00:50.524 Those are the ones that go to them. 01:00:50.524 --> 01:00:55.234 Every single owner of a large successful high dollar sign company 01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:57.664 that I know adopts that mentality. 01:00:57.874 --> 01:00:59.524 They don't care what anybody else is charging. 01:00:59.854 --> 01:01:01.354 I don't care what the guy down the street charges. 01:01:01.354 --> 01:01:03.454 I don't care how long their lead time is. 01:01:04.624 --> 01:01:05.734 This is my price. 01:01:05.734 --> 01:01:06.724 This is my lead time. 01:01:07.444 --> 01:01:07.984 This is how we. 01:01:08.974 --> 01:01:10.414 If you don't like that, there's the door. 01:01:11.014 --> 01:01:13.400 And that is ultimately, I think what separates the good 01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:14.570 sign company owners so bad. 01:01:14.594 --> 01:01:17.013 Bryant Gillespie: It's hard to coming from the small side of it. 01:01:17.503 --> 01:01:20.623 It is really hard to break yourself of that mentality of once you 01:01:20.623 --> 01:01:23.174 get in that habit of Hey, we gotta have this job or that job. 01:01:23.174 --> 01:01:25.034 And it's really hard to break yourself at that cycle. 01:01:25.064 --> 01:01:28.943 Even if you're conscious of it is still difficult sometimes. 01:01:30.093 --> 01:01:33.748 Michael Riley: When I was at security signs, I watched them an opportunity 01:01:33.753 --> 01:01:38.184 to bid on a $2 million project, came through the door, tons of signage 01:01:38.184 --> 01:01:42.930 for a big outlet mall, huge, massive, 30 by 60 EMC along the highway, the 01:01:42.930 --> 01:01:44.610 whole nine, it was a monster project. 01:01:45.690 --> 01:01:47.713 It was, it's like the type of project that makes or breaks a sign 01:01:47.713 --> 01:01:49.823 company and they passed on the job. 01:01:51.473 --> 01:01:56.257 and it blew my mind, like, why would you pass on a, $2 million job, but 01:01:56.324 --> 01:02:00.275 they knew that there's just they couldn't get enough for that job. 01:02:00.275 --> 01:02:01.610 I mean, they knew that to do that, right. 01:02:01.610 --> 01:02:03.500 They needed to charge more, they needed more time than what the 01:02:03.500 --> 01:02:04.550 customer was willing to AOT. 01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:06.170 And they just said, there's the door. 01:02:06.350 --> 01:02:07.130 We don't want your money. 01:02:07.520 --> 01:02:08.210 It blew my mind. 01:02:08.210 --> 01:02:10.034 But there's, I mean, they came out better for it. 01:02:10.034 --> 01:02:14.834 And the signed company that got the job ended up absolutely nearly going bankrupt 01:02:14.839 --> 01:02:18.104 for it because they were so excited to get the job and not have a walk out the door. 01:02:18.554 --> 01:02:21.774 So I think just being able to recognize your strength and weaknesses and know when 01:02:21.779 --> 01:02:27.559 to walk away and know what you're worth and what your, what your true value is and 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:31.557 what your actual value proposition your customer is, I think is critical there 01:02:32.916 --> 01:02:33.366 . I think Pete 01:02:33.366 --> 01:02:33.606 fell 01:02:33.606 --> 01:02:33.996 Luc Michaud: asleep. 01:02:36.096 --> 01:02:36.966 , Bryant Gillespie: he's taking notes. 01:02:38.601 --> 01:02:38.631 Oh 01:02:38.631 --> 01:02:39.021 Luc Michaud: shit. 01:02:39.106 --> 01:02:40.246 Oh, I saw some eyebrows. 01:02:41.416 --> 01:02:42.406 Bryant Gillespie: My headset's dying. 01:02:43.726 --> 01:02:43.996 Yeah. 01:02:43.996 --> 01:02:47.276 I'm at 20% had some gal in my ear, low battery. 01:02:47.281 --> 01:02:48.541 Where we go from there, Peter? 01:02:50.521 --> 01:02:50.851 Yes, sir. 01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:52.585 You took 8 million notes. 01:02:53.485 --> 01:02:54.167 What do you got? 01:02:54.168 --> 01:02:56.898 Peter Kourounis: Let's start with the, let's start with wrapping up 01:02:56.898 --> 01:03:01.858 with Luke's last notes there that most shops are not profitable now. 01:03:01.888 --> 01:03:07.028 Not profitable is a common issue for a lot of shops that are spending 01:03:07.028 --> 01:03:11.228 a lot of time in their business and not working on their business. 01:03:11.408 --> 01:03:15.338 This is a very common problem for sign shop owners that 01:03:15.338 --> 01:03:17.738 are, maybe they are tradesmen. 01:03:17.738 --> 01:03:19.178 Maybe they are business people. 01:03:19.793 --> 01:03:21.833 That do not understand the trade. 01:03:22.193 --> 01:03:25.833 It's a healthy mix of both owners, both types of owners. 01:03:25.884 --> 01:03:27.984 There's a gentleman, there's a gentleman that owns a very large 01:03:27.984 --> 01:03:30.804 shop here, right across the bridge here in New Jersey for me. 01:03:31.164 --> 01:03:34.194 And he has a very sizeable operation and he talks to me all the time 01:03:34.199 --> 01:03:36.244 about wanting to be more profitable. 01:03:36.290 --> 01:03:40.190 But that requires him to lock the door and focus in on how to do that. 01:03:40.490 --> 01:03:45.260 What pivotal decision does your business tell you that allows you to maximize 01:03:45.288 --> 01:03:50.462 and make a more profitable decision or more profitable business in the future? 01:03:50.467 --> 01:03:54.155 Whereas there are other owners that who, I bring, I'm not gonna mention 01:03:54.155 --> 01:03:58.925 this person by name, but we just got out of a consultation call and he's 01:03:58.930 --> 01:04:00.674 wearing, he doesn't understand marketing. 01:04:00.674 --> 01:04:04.214 He doesn't understand the website and they get a bunch of orders, but they're 01:04:04.214 --> 01:04:07.644 only doing $20,000 in sales a month. 01:04:07.644 --> 01:04:10.369 And he wants to figure out how to do more and needs somebody to 01:04:10.374 --> 01:04:13.215 basically turn the key and make it hap make it happen for him. 01:04:14.085 --> 01:04:18.555 So there's various different levels of what that looks like. 01:04:18.555 --> 01:04:24.336 And usually a, an owner that in my estimation, an owner that can step 01:04:24.336 --> 01:04:30.526 away from his business and focus on picking it apart, maximizing on its 01:04:30.526 --> 01:04:35.503 on its abilities, putting people in the right seats to gain that traction 01:04:35.843 --> 01:04:37.583 are gonna be a profitable entity. 01:04:37.913 --> 01:04:39.503 They're gonna be a profitable business. 01:04:39.508 --> 01:04:42.563 They're going to be a scalable business and they're going to be 01:04:42.563 --> 01:04:45.373 a business where there's going to be a decent exit strategy. 01:04:45.833 --> 01:04:49.313 And I'd be interested to ask Luke this question. 01:04:49.313 --> 01:04:52.649 I'm gonna ask Luke this question from the company that you acquired. 01:04:53.609 --> 01:04:54.059 Okay. 01:04:55.379 --> 01:05:02.099 What was there, what am I gonna ask this question the right way? 01:05:02.999 --> 01:05:05.759 what type of company were they, what were their issues? 01:05:05.819 --> 01:05:10.126 What were their weaknesses that you identified in that acquisition? 01:05:10.201 --> 01:05:10.381 Bryant Gillespie: They 01:05:10.381 --> 01:05:13.430 Luc Michaud: have even had less systems than we did. 01:05:13.486 --> 01:05:16.906 The entire staff was very much leashed to one individual. 01:05:16.978 --> 01:05:18.148 Peter Kourounis: Were they profitable? 01:05:19.438 --> 01:05:19.718 Luc Michaud: No, 01:05:19.718 --> 01:05:20.569 Peter Kourounis: were not profitable. 01:05:20.569 --> 01:05:26.959 And from what you said earlier, they came to you and said, would you like to buy us? 01:05:27.019 --> 01:05:33.293 So they solicited you to, for their exit strategy, like we're done. 01:05:33.293 --> 01:05:34.373 It's not working out. 01:05:34.463 --> 01:05:35.273 Save us. 01:05:35.303 --> 01:05:38.483 That's basically what they said to you 01:05:40.403 --> 01:05:41.063 Luc Michaud: essentially. 01:05:41.543 --> 01:05:43.203 So there's more going on there. 01:05:43.719 --> 01:05:45.029 Peter Kourounis: basically the previous owner. 01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:48.566 Luc Michaud: Who was basically running the shop, but was I'm just trying to 01:05:48.566 --> 01:05:53.240 figure out how to word this in such a way that I don't mess up an NDA. 01:05:53.247 --> 01:05:53.487 Peter Kourounis: Okay. 01:05:53.487 --> 01:05:53.757 Yeah. 01:05:53.757 --> 01:05:54.627 I don't wanna do that. 01:05:54.632 --> 01:05:55.317 I don't wanna do that. 01:05:55.317 --> 01:05:59.277 But what I'm getting at is this basically there was a body that wanted out. 01:05:59.337 --> 01:05:59.667 Luc Michaud: Right. 01:05:59.667 --> 01:05:59.697 Okay. 01:05:59.790 --> 01:06:04.360 And so the mandate was if you want out, then you need to find a buyer. 01:06:05.980 --> 01:06:07.060 Peter Kourounis: Understood, understood. 01:06:07.076 --> 01:06:08.251 And you can leave it at that. 01:06:08.251 --> 01:06:12.114 I'm not trying to put you in any contractual damage here, but what I'm 01:06:12.114 --> 01:06:16.554 trying to get, the point that I'm trying to make here is that you had in your 01:06:16.554 --> 01:06:21.714 own experience, a sign shop, what you identified as a big competitor for you. 01:06:22.464 --> 01:06:22.674 Yeah. 01:06:22.734 --> 01:06:28.734 Did not have a systematic approach and also was not profitable 01:06:29.154 --> 01:06:31.104 and also had no exit strategy. 01:06:32.529 --> 01:06:32.709 correct. 01:06:32.709 --> 01:06:34.059 Other than to poach you. 01:06:34.095 --> 01:06:34.965 So there you have it. 01:06:34.965 --> 01:06:38.191 That to me, that is the point I'm trying to make is that if you want 01:06:38.191 --> 01:06:42.523 to be a profitable entity, if you want to be a profitable sign shop, if 01:06:42.528 --> 01:06:46.423 you're out there and you're listening and you're not profitable, it starts 01:06:46.428 --> 01:06:53.893 with identifying that you need systems in place that can keep you, that 01:06:53.893 --> 01:06:55.503 can keep you out of your business. 01:06:56.053 --> 01:06:59.503 If you're the Chuck in the truck, if you are the gentleman, that's 01:06:59.503 --> 01:07:04.363 making signs, installing signs, okay, stop what you're doing. 01:07:04.993 --> 01:07:06.193 You're doing it wrong. 01:07:07.453 --> 01:07:09.433 You need to spend time being an owner. 01:07:10.033 --> 01:07:10.933 Take it from me. 01:07:11.593 --> 01:07:17.563 Scalability and growth didn't happen until I was able to step away, make 01:07:17.623 --> 01:07:23.533 pivotable, pivotal growth decisions that will allow you to be an owner. 01:07:23.953 --> 01:07:28.153 Not a graphic designer, a project manager, a salesperson. 01:07:28.303 --> 01:07:29.653 You are an owner. 01:07:30.193 --> 01:07:33.793 Now you may have came into this business as a tradesperson, but 01:07:33.793 --> 01:07:37.783 the moment you incorporated your business, you became a business owner. 01:07:43.543 --> 01:07:44.803 That's my 2 cents. 01:07:46.933 --> 01:07:50.713 Bryant Gillespie: I think that's well said, man, you've gotta turn off the 01:07:50.713 --> 01:07:56.863 tradesman side and go into business owner mode to make any real progress. 01:07:59.593 --> 01:07:59.983 Peter Kourounis: Yeah, man. 01:07:59.988 --> 01:08:03.554 And listen I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say one thing here that I think I, I don't 01:08:03.554 --> 01:08:05.414 think I've ever said on another episode. 01:08:05.414 --> 01:08:13.844 So I got into this business because my father who owns a bagel store purchased 01:08:13.844 --> 01:08:20.344 window graphics from a local vinyl shop for one window, he spent $700. 01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:24.629 My father approached me and said, Pete, this is a profitable business 01:08:24.629 --> 01:08:28.919 with explosive profit margins that you could use your design skills in. 01:08:28.919 --> 01:08:32.819 And that was the beginning to why I got into this business. 01:08:32.819 --> 01:08:34.499 And you can understand that I relate to Luke. 01:08:34.949 --> 01:08:40.199 I wa I came into it as a tradesman, like I had to learn the business, but I 01:08:40.199 --> 01:08:44.879 was a graphic designer, but the moment I incorporated my business and put 01:08:44.879 --> 01:08:49.561 my name on a certificate of business authority, I became a business owner. 01:08:50.371 --> 01:08:53.311 I became a shareholder of my corporation. 01:08:54.151 --> 01:09:00.181 And now that is a, that became a living, a breathing organism that has to be fed. 01:09:01.141 --> 01:09:02.611 You have to treat it like a human. 01:09:02.911 --> 01:09:04.261 You have to treat it with respect. 01:09:04.261 --> 01:09:06.241 You have to pay attention to what it's telling you. 01:09:06.961 --> 01:09:07.711 Not it. 01:09:07.716 --> 01:09:08.071 Yeah. 01:09:08.071 --> 01:09:09.751 Making fancy signs are fun. 01:09:10.291 --> 01:09:13.471 And it really is what makes this business a great business to be in. 01:09:14.251 --> 01:09:17.551 But at the end of the day, you need customers to make fancy. 01:09:19.276 --> 01:09:22.546 And customers are what pay the bills and you have to grow that 01:09:22.546 --> 01:09:24.286 living and breathing ation. 01:09:28.516 --> 01:09:28.726 Luc Michaud: Yeah. 01:09:28.906 --> 01:09:33.368 I'll just say it's we've already come to that realization and I've like in 01:09:33.368 --> 01:09:37.547 the last month or so I, I fully pulled myself out of quoting, which is the big 01:09:37.614 --> 01:09:40.462 like technician or tradesperson role. 01:09:40.462 --> 01:09:43.546 I was still fulfilling in order to start building all that stuff. 01:09:43.546 --> 01:09:49.592 And I'm excited to see like what we can do to make the shift and get the structure in 01:09:49.592 --> 01:09:51.588 place and, just be working on the bigger, 01:09:57.828 --> 01:09:58.338 Bryant Gillespie: oh no. 01:09:59.148 --> 01:10:00.058 Michael Riley: Oh no. 01:10:00.097 --> 01:10:01.027 Peter Kourounis: Didn't tell me that. 01:10:01.027 --> 01:10:02.827 Didn't just tell me that didn't just happen. 01:10:03.367 --> 01:10:04.767 Bryant Gillespie: Luke down. 01:10:05.347 --> 01:10:06.187 Luke is down 01:10:06.847 --> 01:10:07.357 Peter Kourounis: He's gone 01:10:11.327 --> 01:10:12.921 Let's try and get Luke back on the line. 01:10:12.921 --> 01:10:14.391 Hey guy behind the glass. 01:10:14.396 --> 01:10:16.521 Let's get Luke back on the phone here. 01:10:16.588 --> 01:10:17.852 Michael Riley: If fast signs fails, we know Luke. 01:10:17.852 --> 01:10:18.092 If you're 01:10:18.092 --> 01:10:22.262 Peter Kourounis: listening, please dial 1 805 6 7 1 2 3 4. 01:10:22.535 --> 01:10:24.635 Me here, you there. 01:10:25.385 --> 01:10:26.525 Michael Riley: I get a future at radio. 01:10:27.335 --> 01:10:27.845 He does. 01:10:28.295 --> 01:10:29.315 Yeah, I think he missed his calling. 01:10:29.765 --> 01:10:29.975 Oh, he 01:10:29.975 --> 01:10:30.215 Peter Kourounis: is. 01:10:30.275 --> 01:10:30.875 I'm just quo. 01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:32.525 I'm quoting some old radio. 01:10:33.935 --> 01:10:36.185 Hi, you've reached the schmooze. 01:10:36.185 --> 01:10:38.705 Me here, you there. 01:10:38.912 --> 01:10:43.412 welcome to w F a N sports radio I'm taking. 01:10:43.412 --> 01:10:43.772 Luc Michaud: All good. 01:10:44.222 --> 01:10:44.912 Should be fine here. 01:10:45.512 --> 01:10:45.632 Yeah. 01:10:45.632 --> 01:10:50.011 Anyway, so I think what I was gonna say is that we, I've known 01:10:50.011 --> 01:10:51.841 all this information for 10 years. 01:10:51.871 --> 01:10:52.184 Right. 01:10:52.184 --> 01:10:53.460 But you're just caught in the weeds. 01:10:53.488 --> 01:10:54.210 You really are. 01:10:54.240 --> 01:10:54.480 Right. 01:10:54.480 --> 01:10:58.980 And it's hard to pull yourself away when you just feel like you're obligated to do. 01:11:00.315 --> 01:11:01.815 To do the work in the moment. 01:11:01.815 --> 01:11:02.115 Right. 01:11:02.115 --> 01:11:08.460 So I have pulled myself away, completely from the tradesperson role now. 01:11:08.475 --> 01:11:12.727 I was doing a lot of quoting in kind of the architectural way, finding new 01:11:12.727 --> 01:11:15.796 builds type jobs is what I was doing. 01:11:15.796 --> 01:11:17.405 And I stopped doing that a month ago. 01:11:17.555 --> 01:11:23.520 And I'm excited that what I'm working on now is the stuff that I've known that I'm 01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:27.496 supposed to be working on for a decade. 01:11:27.521 --> 01:11:28.783 So it's it's tough. 01:11:28.783 --> 01:11:33.133 Everything's like I said to my business partner, like the bad news is 01:11:33.133 --> 01:11:36.553 everything's fucked up, but the good news is that everything's fucked up 01:11:36.763 --> 01:11:38.473 and we know how to pick a lot of it. 01:11:38.566 --> 01:11:40.141 It's just a matter of fixing it. 01:11:40.141 --> 01:11:40.381 Right. 01:11:40.381 --> 01:11:45.082 And we can make a lot of that Kaizen small incremental change. 01:11:45.082 --> 01:11:47.275 And we'll see drastic change in improvement. 01:11:47.275 --> 01:11:47.575 Right. 01:11:47.575 --> 01:11:50.641 So it's, I don't want to give the impression we're like we're in trouble 01:11:50.641 --> 01:11:52.141 as a company cuz it's not the case. 01:11:52.141 --> 01:11:56.821 It's just, you guys all know what it feels like to be in a shop where yeah. 01:11:56.864 --> 01:11:59.864 You're just, there's more work than you can keep up with. 01:11:59.869 --> 01:12:00.194 Right. 01:12:00.764 --> 01:12:01.544 And absolutely. 01:12:02.444 --> 01:12:07.662 And so I'm excited to be actually functioning in that business owner role, 01:12:07.722 --> 01:12:11.200 even though it's just started and we haven't seen the fruits of the efforts 01:12:11.200 --> 01:12:15.460 quite yet, but to just be actually doing that and doing that full time even, 01:12:15.820 --> 01:12:18.854 cause I know a lot of time they recommend oh, just put two hours a day aside. 01:12:18.854 --> 01:12:19.094 Right. 01:12:19.099 --> 01:12:23.567 But I'm like, we're at the point where like I have to me and Travis, like we 01:12:23.572 --> 01:12:27.347 have to get a lot of this stuff sorted out and to be focusing on that a hundred 01:12:27.347 --> 01:12:29.800 percent of the time like it's exciting. 01:12:30.930 --> 01:12:31.220 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 01:12:31.220 --> 01:12:31.221 Yeah. 01:12:31.303 --> 01:12:35.735 We're definitely stoked for you and you, Hey, that's part of the that's 01:12:35.735 --> 01:12:37.055 really the biggest piece of it. 01:12:37.805 --> 01:12:41.797 Making the decision and sitting down and actually doing that for anybody that's 01:12:41.797 --> 01:12:45.168 actually gonna listen to this one what was the impetus or like, how did you do that? 01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.153 I feel like a lot of people they understand they need to work on 01:12:48.158 --> 01:12:51.265 systems and it's Hey, if we just do this, then we can get that done. 01:12:51.695 --> 01:12:53.966 Luc Michaud: I think honestly, the biggest piece, I think the biggest 01:12:53.966 --> 01:12:59.211 piece that allowed me to step away completely is to really, truly fully 01:12:59.211 --> 01:13:04.445 understand that it doesn't need to be me, have some humility and understand. 01:13:04.445 --> 01:13:08.490 I think a lot of us are like, I know this I can do it better than somebody 01:13:08.490 --> 01:13:10.380 else that I hire, so I should do it. 01:13:10.830 --> 01:13:11.100 Right. 01:13:11.460 --> 01:13:12.450 But I think really. 01:13:13.635 --> 01:13:14.415 That's not true. 01:13:14.565 --> 01:13:15.345 It's a lie. 01:13:15.345 --> 01:13:19.763 We tell ourselves to continue to stay in our comfort zone and do what we know as 01:13:19.763 --> 01:13:23.919 opposed to pushing ourselves and really addressing the larger issues at hand. 01:13:23.945 --> 01:13:28.560 So having a little bit of humility and maybe just diving into fear 01:13:28.620 --> 01:13:30.863 of the unknown, and just saying, you know what, it doesn't need 01:13:30.863 --> 01:13:33.713 to be me that builds this quote. 01:13:34.223 --> 01:13:36.983 It doesn't need to be me that does this layout. 01:13:37.553 --> 01:13:41.273 I don't need to be the person that needs to go into this room and Mount the sign 01:13:41.663 --> 01:13:43.403 because the customer's waiting for it. 01:13:43.643 --> 01:13:43.878 Right. 01:13:43.884 --> 01:13:47.886 Other people can do those things and it doesn't need to be you that's the biggest 01:13:47.886 --> 01:13:54.399 that I think realization or tipping point of a sign shop owner is that you, 01:13:54.489 --> 01:13:56.849 your business is still your business. 01:13:57.309 --> 01:13:59.199 If you are not the guy doing this stuff. 01:13:59.199 --> 01:13:59.409 Right. 01:13:59.409 --> 01:14:00.609 And your customers still. 01:14:00.635 --> 01:14:02.085 I think, recognize that as well. 01:14:02.085 --> 01:14:03.138 Peter Kourounis: Said, I think that's huge, very well said. 01:14:03.138 --> 01:14:08.028 I hope that some of our listeners out there can understand the severity 01:14:08.028 --> 01:14:12.191 and boldness of that statement that, you're in the weeds, you're in the mud. 01:14:12.251 --> 01:14:15.041 You can, you continue to forget about building your business, 01:14:15.046 --> 01:14:18.854 but you have to know that's the end game you have to get there. 01:14:19.244 --> 01:14:19.334 Right. 01:14:19.424 --> 01:14:21.013 And, I appreciate that statement. 01:14:21.013 --> 01:14:22.243 I appreciate the honesty, Luke. 01:14:22.243 --> 01:14:24.913 That was a very, I resonate with that statement. 01:14:24.913 --> 01:14:26.833 So I hope that our listeners do as well. 01:14:29.443 --> 01:14:29.713 Michael Riley: Yeah. 01:14:30.463 --> 01:14:33.793 Bryant Gillespie: All right guys, Luke been a pleasure having you on, man. 01:14:33.793 --> 01:14:38.072 I think 2, 3, 4 months from now, whenever you guys are further down 01:14:38.088 --> 01:14:42.362 the line, maybe we have you back and talk about what you've you figured 01:14:42.362 --> 01:14:43.562 out over the last couple months. 01:14:44.432 --> 01:14:45.152 Luc Michaud: Sounds good to me. 01:14:45.152 --> 01:14:45.782 Thanks for having me 01:14:45.782 --> 01:14:46.202 Michael Riley: guys. 01:14:48.272 --> 01:14:48.722 Thanks, Larry. 01:14:48.722 --> 01:14:49.382 This is cool. 01:14:50.672 --> 01:14:52.112 Bryant Gillespie: It's been great conversations guys. 01:14:53.222 --> 01:14:53.402 Okay, 01:14:54.242 --> 01:14:54.782 All right guys. 01:14:54.812 --> 01:14:58.052 So let's bring this one to a close let's. 01:14:58.052 --> 01:14:59.792 Wrap it up, Peter. 01:15:00.632 --> 01:15:02.912 rapid fire didn't we do that last time. 01:15:03.332 --> 01:15:05.906 What's your one quick takeaway from today? 01:15:09.446 --> 01:15:11.625 Rapid fire rapid. 01:15:16.335 --> 01:15:18.075 not so rapid Mike. 01:15:18.435 --> 01:15:20.344 What's what's your one takeaway from today? 01:15:21.211 --> 01:15:25.141 Michael Riley: My one takeaway from today is you gotta abandon ship when you 01:15:25.146 --> 01:15:29.464 want to be a business owner, or at least abandon the the technician mentality. 01:15:29.464 --> 01:15:31.954 When you want to take your business to the next level, or maybe not fully 01:15:31.954 --> 01:15:37.924 abandon it, but at least give it equal space with the business ownership 01:15:37.924 --> 01:15:43.904 mentality, and figure out how to let your technical side compliment the 01:15:43.904 --> 01:15:45.464 business owner's side and vice versa. 01:15:45.464 --> 01:15:49.694 And if you don't have it any, to be the business owner, find somebody who 01:15:49.694 --> 01:15:50.904 can and pay them to do it for you. 01:15:52.469 --> 01:15:53.099 Bryant Gillespie: That's a good point. 01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:55.371 It doesn't have to be you as Luke mention it doesn't 01:15:55.371 --> 01:15:56.031 Michael Riley: have to be you. 01:15:56.181 --> 01:15:57.051 Absolutely not. 01:15:57.111 --> 01:15:58.251 It just has to be somebody. 01:16:00.471 --> 01:16:00.801 Bryant Gillespie: I agree. 01:16:00.801 --> 01:16:01.341 A hundred percent. 01:16:01.341 --> 01:16:06.737 I think it, one of the biggest takeaways for me today is basically getting 01:16:06.737 --> 01:16:09.153 space for yourself from the business. 01:16:09.191 --> 01:16:13.931 Not only just away from that technic mission, that tradesman personality, 01:16:14.321 --> 01:16:17.377 but also just a to get a good visual of where you want to go. 01:16:17.677 --> 01:16:17.797 Yeah. 01:16:18.367 --> 01:16:22.669 Because especially in this time, everybody's gone through COVID 01:16:22.669 --> 01:16:23.789 it's hard to find good people. 01:16:23.789 --> 01:16:28.769 You don't have to have a 20 million shop or a 10 million shop or a 01:16:28.769 --> 01:16:31.169 5 million shop to be successful. 01:16:31.739 --> 01:16:35.039 It's more about finding the ideal shop for you. 01:16:35.069 --> 01:16:35.879 What works for you? 01:16:35.907 --> 01:16:38.782 We've got a couple of the guys in our mastermind group, which. 01:16:39.757 --> 01:16:44.127 if you would like to join, please check out our website, better sign, shop.com. 01:16:44.127 --> 01:16:45.419 You'll find it on the website there. 01:16:45.419 --> 01:16:49.070 But we've got several guys in the mastermind group that have just jettisoned 01:16:49.075 --> 01:16:54.675 all their equipment, all their production team and are now just doing outsourcing. 01:16:55.035 --> 01:16:56.798 And it was a lifestyle decision. 01:16:56.918 --> 01:17:00.388 So I think one of the most important things you could do as a owner of a 01:17:00.388 --> 01:17:02.159 sign shop is get some space from it. 01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:06.149 Whether that's taking a vacation that doesn't involve a trade show or 01:17:06.226 --> 01:17:10.456 being tethered to wifi on the beach somewhere, while you're answering 01:17:10.461 --> 01:17:12.909 emails and give yourself that space to figure out what you really want. 01:17:12.936 --> 01:17:14.566 , Michael Riley: and don't lose sight of what you really want either. 01:17:14.596 --> 01:17:17.446 I mean, we all gotta into this because we want something and it's usually 01:17:17.446 --> 01:17:20.356 a better life than what we would have by working for somebody else. 01:17:20.411 --> 01:17:22.091 Don't lose sight of that goal. 01:17:22.091 --> 01:17:23.411 I know a lot of people do. 01:17:23.471 --> 01:17:26.228 I lost sight of that goal myself, and it's hard to. 01:17:26.978 --> 01:17:27.961 Hard to get back on track. 01:17:27.961 --> 01:17:30.739 If you forget that, ultimately you're doing this for you and 01:17:30.739 --> 01:17:35.144 your family to, to, achieve a better life than the alternative. 01:17:35.472 --> 01:17:36.132 Don't forget that. 01:17:37.632 --> 01:17:42.552 Rapid fire, take away Peter, go systems, systems, and systems. 01:17:43.182 --> 01:17:47.562 You need systems in order to grow and scale your business. 01:17:48.012 --> 01:17:51.732 If you don't know what systems are or what systems you want to input into 01:17:51.732 --> 01:17:54.672 your business, get in touch with us. 01:17:55.112 --> 01:18:00.162 We'll take a quick look at what you can do, and we'll tell you which systems 01:18:00.162 --> 01:18:02.262 you need to implement into your company. 01:18:02.512 --> 01:18:02.765 Bryant Gillespie: All right. 01:18:02.777 --> 01:18:08.087 If you guys have questions for the crusty sign guys on the show, you can email 01:18:08.087 --> 01:18:13.457 us at, Hey, at better sign, shop.com and we will address your questions 01:18:13.457 --> 01:18:20.267 on the air, or if you'd like to be a guest on the show, how do we do that? 01:18:20.490 --> 01:18:23.700 If you would like to be a guest on the show, make sure you shoot us an email. 01:18:23.970 --> 01:18:25.959 We will contact you. 01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:26.969 We'll talk to you. 01:18:27.337 --> 01:18:27.787 We'll have you. 01:18:28.562 --> 01:18:29.342 Pleasure guys 01:18:29.622 --> 01:18:30.372 Michael Riley: all right, guys, it's been real. 01:18:31.512 --> 01:18:32.112 Bye guys. 01:18:32.592 --> 01:18:32.862 See it.