Bryant Gillespie: All right guys.
So we're here.
We've got the third addition of the better sign shop podcast.
hi, Mike.
Hi, Peter.
Nice to have you guys.
Michael Riley: Hey
Peter Kourounis: Bryan.
Nice.
Are you nice to be back?
Nice to be back Bryan.
How are you doing?
Yeah,
Bryant Gillespie: I finally made it back from vacation.
We were on the road.
It felt like for two days.
I don't think it was quite that long, but man, what a time I could tell
you lots of stories about being in.
A confined space with six women.
Not fun.
Michael Riley: I feel your pain.
I just had family descend on our house this weekend with
four teenage girls in tow.
And if I had any hair left on my head, it's probably gone by now.
It's been a long one.
Bryant Gillespie: Wow.
My kids pull out my hair and I'm rocking the long hair now.
, it's easy prey.
I think
Michael Riley: I just pull my own out and we
Bryant Gillespie: got Peter back from the hospital or the sickness.
Michael Riley: Glad you're feeling better, Peter.
Thank
Peter Kourounis: you.
Thank you.
The voices here, the breathing is good.
Ready to rock and roll.
The two levels are high.
The two levels are good.
That's great.
You guys are never gonna believe this.
You guys are never going to believe this.
This is breaking news here for me.
Very wow.
A wow moment for me.
A wow moment for me, kinda scared here.
I I was just sent a I was just sent a gift by a gentleman who is wow.
I'm so sorry.
I'm so taken back by this.
Okay.
I was just sent a gift and I thought it was an Amazon box, so I opened it randomly
thinking it was like one of my random Amazon purchases, but no, it was a gift
sent to me by a former employee of mine.
His name is Pablo Torres.
So shout out to you Pablo.
And he just published his first graphic design book called visual identity.
Here it is right here.
And he gave me a note here and he said read the third page,
which is a he thanks me as being.
Primary mentor for writing this book for that's pretty cool.
He mentions me here in the spine of his book here.
I don't think I'd ever expect that I'm actually like really
taken back by this right now.
I'm almost gonna cry here, but yeah, so that's a, I'm gonna read this book,
VI visual identity by Pablo Torres.
Go get it.
Little plug for him here.
Go get it on Amazon.
It's a great graphic design book for those graphic designers out there.
Yeah.
Little story about Pablo Torres.
In 2011, he was an employee of mine.
He was a graphic designer coming outta college.
English was his second language and I taught him how to be a designer
and assign business and he gives me a lot of credit for that in his book.
Yeah.
That's quite exciting for me.
That's a first I'm
Michael Riley: actually mention.
So is that book like specifically about sign design or it's
about, is it more like a
Peter Kourounis: general graphic design book?
It's about business visual identity in terms of what sign shops can
and graphic design shops can do
Michael Riley: for your business.
That's really awesome.
We'll put a link to that book up on the website, the show
Bryant Gillespie: notes, if we can ever figure out the show notes.
I think we've had two episodes so far, no show notes, so we'll get that figured
out so we can promote Pablo for sure.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Awesome.
Everybody buy Pablo's book
Peter Kourounis: ever go, everybody go buy Pablo Torres's
book visual identity on Amazon.
Michael Riley: Yeah, we just try to get Pablo on the show someday.
Let's do it'd be a great guest.
Peter Kourounis: Let me see if I could make that happen.
Michael Riley: Yeah, that'd be awesome.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
For the new listeners, so this thing has taken off a little bit.
How about we take a minute to introduce ourselves, Mike sign money.
You go
Michael Riley: first sign, money sign bunny.
My name's Mike Riley in the sign industry for about 24, 25 years or
so now used to own a decent sized sign company and sold it about seven
or eight years ago and moved across the country to the west coast.
And now I live in Oregon and I renovate my house and design signs for other
sign companies now on my pajamas.
So life is good in Oregon,
Bryant Gillespie: Tim, the tool, man Taylor, over here.
All right, Peter.
Yep.
Spill the bow for
Michael Riley: everybody.
Peter Kourounis: Yep.
My name is Peter CORs and I am a.
Graphic designer by trade.
I have a unlimited graphic design company as well, and I
also own a fast signs franchise.
I'm the only sign shop owner of the three of us.
So that is that is, that seems to be the the adage here in this group here.
But I bring a lot at the table to, from a standpoint of business coaching marketing
expertise and various different levels of systematic approaches that sign shop
owners should follow here coming from a franchise model, having developed
a franchise within the sign industry.
It's I'm very passionate about following a process, being systematic with your
business and ultimately helping you lead to growing and scaling your business.
Bryant Gillespie: maybe we should, next time we should do
the introductions for each other.
I think that would be fun, but yeah, I'm Bryant.
The founder of better sign shop.
I have been in the sign industry for X number of years.
I, a number of years I don't know how long it is.
Like 17, maybe.
I've got three rotten little girls that pull out my long hair and I feel
like by next year I might look like Mike, by the time we get done here.
But when I'm not messing with them or getting ran over by the girls,
I'm helping everybody improve their systems, processes, whatever
Michael Riley: hey, will you guys give me like one second since we're gonna
edit this out and I'm really sorry.
We're gonna leave this with something.
My cat shit on my desk.
Bryant Gillespie: I think we'd leave that in.
Yeah, I don't
Peter Kourounis: think, I don't think you got, can you please leave that in?
Bryant Gillespie: All right.
So today's topic guys is growing paints, which could mean a lot of things, but
in the course of today, it is when your shop is scaling from, let's say
250,000 or a handful of employees to 20 employees, the 30 employees, and
what kind of impact that has on the.
Michael Riley: yeah, we touched on this a little bit.
I think in our first episode actually about particularly about growing too
fast and, taking every job that walks in the door and how you can really
damage your reputation or even put yourself out of business, if you
grow without any sort of guardrails on that growth without managing it.
And I've definitely seen a a lot of businesses, not just in the sign industry,
but businesses in general, my former customers that they grew, way too fast
way too quickly and experienced some serious growing pains because of that.
And it's a real rock and hard place that you're stuck between, the traditional
business mentality is grow or die.
So I think as an entrepreneurs it's hard to you.
Turn away any work, especially where you're in that growth phase where
you're trying to go to the next level.
And it's easy to get caught with your pants down, for sure.
Bryant Gillespie: When you're small, I think you're you do have that mentality of
Hey, this job is coming through the door.
I just walked right in.
And often you, you do walk-ins so Hey, this $200 job, or this $50 job came
through the door, I'm gonna take it.
We're gonna do it.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
It's terrifying to, to think about turning away money.
You're trying to eat, you're trying to pay the bills and.
And if you have employees at that point, you're trying to pay them as well and
not have your payroll check bounce.
So it's definitely an intimidating spot to be in for sure.
And I think knowing when to say yes and when to say no is probably one
of the most essential tools in a small business owner's tool belt.
Peter Kourounis: It's actually interesting that you say that.
I actually think that's the pivotal point for when somebody realizes that
they need to grow that statement right.
There is that if they are knowledgeable to the, to, to a point where they can
say no, they've reached a certain portion of their entrepreneurial lifestyle where
they value their time over the dollar.
Right.
So that kind of lends itself to a certain growth spurt in entrepreneurial shift.
I remember taking every single order that came in the door too, but at a
certain point, you have to realize that.
I think a lot of small business owners out there, small shop owners,
I'll take the, I'll take your logic.
Like they need to make that payroll check.
And a lot of them use that barometer, right?
As a barometer, I need to do $5,000 to make payroll this week.
So I need to take every dollar I can.
And I've spoken to several business owners that operate that way.
And typically when you have that mindset, it lends itself to a to per,
to such a small scale business, right.
It which it might be actually even harder to run than a larger scale
business when you're relying on that next order to pay your bills, nothing is
more stressful and more pressure packed than that than that piece right there.
Growth comes in many different forms, but in my opinion, just what you said.
If they can get to that level where they can say no, that means that they've
already surpassed that portion of that pressure packed decision that they need to
Michael Riley: make.
Right.
Or even if they haven't necessarily gotten to that point yet, if they
just, everybody goes into business with a vision in their head of what they
want their company to look like and an ideal type of customer, or, an ideal
type of job or work they want to do.
And it's really easy to just abandon that vision too, when somebody's
waving money in your face as well.
So not just controlling growth from a financial standpoint, but also controlling
the direction of your company and the, if you're taking every job that
comes in your door just to make ends, meet and pay the bills that might not
align with the vision, the long term vision you have for your business and.
As you emerge from that growth period you very well could be in
a different business than you.
You started out in if you're not careful as well.
And I've seen that happen to a lot of people it even happened to me, to, to
Bryant Gillespie: one degree I was gonna be my next question, man.
Was what was the vision when you started and where did you end up?
Michael Riley: For me, I started out wanting to make, really high
end hand carved, dimensional, gold leaf, sandblasted, the kind
of stuff in new England, in a coastal touristy town, right?
Like just picture high end signage in a rust belt city
in Ohio that's hard to sell.
the market for it.
Isn't huge.
Right.
And you a few years into my business after starting my business.
I guess seven or eight years after starting my business the economy really
took a nose, dive, the financial.
Crash in 2008, 2009.
It definitely upended the business environment.
I think, everywhere, not just in, in Dayton, Ohio, across the board the board.
Yeah, absolutely.
So all of a sudden, nobody was buying gold leaf, hand carved signs.
They were buying going out of business banners.
So on one, I mean on one hand it's smart business to pivot when the, the
business environment drastically changes like that, cuz that's a case where
either you adapt or you die, it's not necessarily like a grow or die thing.
But you do abandon your vision.
And for me, like we came out of the recession session as a more of a wide
format, grand format type operation.
And we really, weren't doing very many signs at all after that.
I mean, we definitely move in a different direction and I,
in hindsight looking back like.
I think that was the right business decision to pivot and go where the
market was demanding that we go.
And we came out of it, a very strong company, and we saw a lot of competitors
drop like flies, but it, wasn't what I started out wanting to do.
And my satisfaction with the business definitely.
Took a nose dive as well, because we were no longer doing the types
of signs that I wanted to do.
We were, meeting the market demand which, I think mentally takes
a toll on a business owner too.
If you're cranking out work that you just don't want to do, you
don't enjoy doing profitable or not.
Bryant Gillespie: I think that's one of the trade offs that you have to make in
this industry though, as well is you get some of these really nice projects that
you enjoy doing, and then you get 10 times as many banners or crappy projects
that you just, they pay the bills, right?
So you, that next
Michael Riley: hit, but I think a lot of people are, I think a lot
of people are really lucky in, in just in their geographical, location
where they're in a place where, their market, their local market supports
whatever type of signage they wanna do.
And other people, like me, like my market just didn't support it.
I hear a lot of people say.
you can sell any type of sign anywhere.
It's just the way you sell it.
And I don't really buy that.
That's not necessarily true.
I mean, there are business markets that just aren't gonna buy certain types of
signage, no matter how well you spin it.
Or at least they're not gonna the market.
Isn't big enough to actually support anybody other than, a one person operation
working out other garage or something.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I mean, in Dayton,
Ohio, you, you can't run a large sign company making just gold leaf.
So that's just not gonna happen where like you could, if you
were in Cape Cod or something.
Right.
So there's a bit of a self betrayal that goes into growth as well.
Like you have to put your personal wants and needs and visions for the business,
not necessarily in the back burner, but you've gotta give them space to.
Exist with the reality of business and managing that, is just as
difficult as managing growth, I think.
And it's tough
Bryant Gillespie: was for me anyway, I, my journey into signage was really,
and we've talked about this before, but it was really just, Hey, I can actually
get paid to make cool shit for people.
And that was for a long time, that was enough, so I, and as you keep going in
the industry, like you get a little more jaded and one day you wake up and you're
doing nothing, but yard signs all day on a C E T flatbed printer that you despise.
But yeah, I feel like it's, it is definitely a journey and I kinda look
at it as you're, when you're growing, like you're first starting out,
you're growing, you hit that period.
Like you're coming up to the top of the hill, and you, you you think, oh, Hey,
this is what's gonna be over the hill.
And I know where we want to go at this point in time.
But when you get to that hill point where you're like something like I could see
it now it's it, you have definitely a different perspective than what you have
when you started, which, I feel like listening to you talk about the different
type of signs that you did, or didn't want to do, obviously that's in hindsight, but
in the moment in the fog it's hard to.
Exactly which way to go.
And, you trying to shove some of those feelings down of Hey, I don't, I
really, I don't wanna do this sign, but
Michael Riley: But I feel like I have to cuz I I wanna make payroll this week.
yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Or, Hey, I don't want to add three more employees to the business,
but I have to manage this growth or, I have to buy this equipment or, it doesn't
have to be taking on that particular job.
It could be any one of those things that you do to grow or to support
the growth that you're experiencing.
Michael Riley: Right.
Right.
And I think the flip side too, it too, a lot of people don't consider
when they're thinking about growth as well, is are you as a business owner
actually benefiting from that growth, the business may benefit from the
growth, theoretically more revenue, more employees, more customers, but as a
business owner, is that growth actually buying you the lifestyle that you want.
Because we get into the industry cuz we wanna make cool shit, like you
said, but the reality is we get into the industry cuz we wanna make money.
It's a means to an end.
Are you actually enjoying more of a free lifestyle?
Are you happy in your life?
Are you making more money as you grow?
Or are you just adding more stress and not really making any more money or taking,
taking any more time off or vacation?
And that's a, and that's a trap that I fell into in, in a lot of people as
they're going through the growth phase.
Oh yeah.
Experience as well.
Like I've, I've troubled my revenue, but my paycheck is exactly the same
and I'm act, I actually lost a week of pay vacation because I'm so busy now.
And that's, I think that's where unmanaged growth starts to really
bite you in the asses when you step back and realize oh yeah we're big and
we're busy and we're, dollar signs are there, but my life hasn't improved any.
Or if anything, it's gone backwards a little bit.
I'm more stressed out than I was before.
so I think evaluating your growth strategy and where you wanna go with the company
from a very critical eye and really determining how much do you want to grow?
How big do you want to get and how is that going to mesh with your desired exit
strategy, lifestyle, lifestyle, whatever.
Right.
And nobody thinks about that.
Oh, I own a business.
That's cool.
I can do whatever I want.
Right.
No that's not how it works at all.
You slave to the business.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
A hundred percent.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
This intersection of growth and ownership and what it means for
a lifestyle work life balance.
We've talked about it on some of our mastermind calls.
But we've got a guest today on the podcast.
We've got Luke Maad is it?
I don't think I've ever said your last name, dude.
Luc Michaud: Misha.
The B
Bryant Gillespie: MIS silent.
Yeah.
I hate butchering people's last names.
so we got Luke, me Misha with us from Sytech in British Columbia.
Luke is one of the owners of a growing shop.
And he's gonna join us today to talk about some of their experiences
with rapid growth in the company.
Welcome aboard Luke.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
Thanks for having
Michael Riley: me guys.
Welcome, Luke.
We're excited.
You're here.
Yeah, me too.
Bryant Gillespie: Just so we're clear, this is not a swear free zone.
You can swear safe space.
No sense.
Luc Michaud: Don't I I've probably said a precedent, but I don't
actually always need to swear, but
Bryant Gillespie: sometimes I do.
Oh
Michael Riley: yeah.
oh, it's a necessity in the sign industry.
Like you're not a true sign guy, unless you just let it
fly when you gotta let it fly.
Like it's just, You gotta release the
Luc Michaud: tension
Michael Riley: somehow, right?
Absolutely.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Give us a little bit about your shop Luke.
Luc Michaud: So Mike was talking earlier about 2008, 2009.
And that's really, it's not, our company started in 2005.
But of course, like everybody else 2008 to 2012 or so, was challenging period.
And at the time I actually just worked for the company.
I started working with my partner just as an employee in 2008 , and in 2012 I
was having a casual conversation with the bookkeeper and my business partner at the
time thought we were breaking even, but we were actually losing money, but nobody
really realized that until this casual conversation with the bookkeeper happened
and I said, oh, at least we're breaking.
She's oh, we're not breaking even.
Oh, geez.
What like does tra know that, and she's oh, I don't know.
It never really clued into, she was doing her job and to be fair to her,
like her job is not to manage the money.
Her job is to make sure everything the bookkeeping was
done line down to the penny.
Right.
That's so anyway, we sat down and grilled her for three days
straight discovered we were losing a little bit of money every month.
And that had been compounding month over month for three years three or four years.
At the time we were just a small little hole in the wall, so it
wasn't like a insurmountable number.
And in the, looking back, it looks a little bit silly, but we were in the
hole and that's of when I came aboard, cuz I was doing my own thing on the
side and we decided to put our efforts together in trying to make SciTech work.
So from that point in time, 2012 until now we've averaged about 25%
year over year growth every year.
Wow.
It's a lot.
Yeah.
And it's, all of that growth has been natural growth.
Like we don't do advertising, we don't have outside sales
reps even at least not anymore.
So that's just business.
That's coming at us, right.
Because of our position in the marketplace.
And we try to take care of people and stand behind our work.
And it's just the way that it's come at us.
And when you're seeing that sort of growth, when you're a $350,000 shop
that's something you can control and it's not like earth shattering year over.
But the bigger and bigger we get, we're about,
Probably eight, eight times a revenue seven or eight times a revenue that
we were 10 years ago and now year over year, basically if you're doing
2 million a year and you see a 25% increase, that's a $500,000 jump.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
That's a lot more dollar wise year.
Luc Michaud: Right.
As we're basically what we're discovering now is that the bigger and bigger you
get, if you don't have things under control, like truly under control
you start to hit a lot of roadblocks and challenges and all your problems.
I think become, I don't know if exposed is the right word,
but maybe magnified, right?
Everything matters more when you're, everything's such a huge scale.
Michael Riley: yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: What are some of those roadblocks that
you guys are running into now?
Luc Michaud: So big ones are, training.
Like we don't really have a proper training system in place, much like
most shops, and again, when you're going through this growth every year, all
the time, you're just constantly busy.
So you're plugging people into holes and you're throwing them to the wolves.
, for the most part,
Bryant Gillespie: think that's every side shouts training program.
Like it is just a sheet of paper Hey, jump in.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
You're like, here's the laminator, and you show 'em how to load a roll twice,
and then you leave them in the room cuz you've got other stuff to go do.
Right.
Yeah.
And of course by the trial and error, they're gonna
mess up, we'll figure it out.
Roll after roll or yard after yard of fucked up jobs that need to
jump right back on the printer.
Cuz we're at square one again and you.
It's, there's not much else you can do in the moment.
Probably five years ago, we should have been much more on top of getting
those pieces of the puzzle in the place so that, staff can be trained
and that there's a proper workflow and structure in place so that everybody
knows what to do in any given situation.
And we're in the middle of building all that.
But again, the industry is so varied.
Like Mike's talking about, you can do gold leaf sandblasted stuff, or
you can be making hard hat ducks.
Those are two vastly different worlds and there's a lot of
information to put together and.
in order to train people and we're in a geographic area that,
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Tell us more about the area that you guys are in, cause you guys
in a unique situation there.
I think
Luc Michaud: so we're in Canada, first of all, which just naturally there's
more space between all the main cities.
Right.
But we are, so we're a hundred thousand population city prince
George, and it acts as the main hub for Northern British Columbia.
So we service as far as eight hours away, west smaller communities out towards the
coast about three, three hours south.
And we're not, I guess a little bit about three hours east as well and not
so much north, if we really wanted to, we could probably pursue up there, but
there's a bit more competition up north.
So we have a central hub and it's a pretty large geographic area.
If you're to drive from Williams lake to terrace, that's.
11 or 12 hours.
Wow.
Bryant Gillespie: That's a lot of ground to cover for sure.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
And being geographically isolated like that too, at least previously.
Now we might maybe have the benefit of being able to pick and
choose work a little bit more.
And we're figuring that out and evaluating that if that makes sense,
but really up until this point we really had no option, but to do a
little bit of everything, right?
So the guy who comes in and wants a lawn sign, we're taking care of that
guy and the guy who wants to wrap his vehicle, you're taking care of that
guy and the people that need commercial window tint, we're doing that and channel
letters, so it's a very broad spectrum.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
I think when you're doing that much work or that, that scope of work or
that breadth of work, I guess you could say it is really hard to be.
Really good at all of it, so it's just Hey, we're getting the job done, but it's,
like some of those jobs are a struggle.
Luc Michaud: Yeah, for sure.
And the other thing we're experiencing now is we go out all these people,
me and my business partner have all the information in our heads and we
know all those variables and, what does, just a simple logo deckle on
a truck need to be right materials, how you're setting up your cut lines.
So it's easier to weed.
What size of text is too small?
What's gonna have the most impact all the way from that type of job all the
way up to, one of us is responsible for understanding all the ins and
outs of a monument sign, right.
Which is a vastly different thing.
So we have to get all this information somehow out of our heads.
In a way that our staff can access it and learn it and not rely on
us to be the ones that are of the gatekeepers of the knowledge, I guess.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
What is it, tell us a little about your staff, Luke.
Luc Michaud: So we've got, I believe 21 staff right now.
We acquired guess the other thing I should say, yeah, we acquired a company.
Our main competition approached us in the fall and asked us to make them
disappear to which we kindly obliged
Bryant Gillespie: I love that's a great way to put it.
Luc Michaud: It's hard to say no, when your main competition says,
Hey why don't you make us disappear?
And so we were able to definitely benefit from that.
And the biggest, one of the biggest pieces that was part of that deal that we
wanted was really the staff cuz as every.
Probably listening to this podcast knows, trying to find good experienced staff in
the industry is it's a unicorn, right.
So we brought five people over there, but then we the company we acquired was doing
about 60% of the numbers that we were.
So you're potentially talking a 60% jump overnight in, in volume.
Which five people couldn't accurately cover for us.
So we're in this spot where we've overhired in order to hopefully build
out all the structure in the back end and get everything in place so that,
six months, a year, two years from now, the crew that we have here can hopefully
do significantly higher numbers without having to plug in many more bodies.
If any at all, what was the question?
Did I answer the
Bryant Gillespie: question?
Yeah.
Yeah no.
Yeah, you did great.
No, we were just asking about the staff.
Just trying to, oh yeah.
Staff.
So paint the picture of all the different pieces of the business.
Okay.
So we got,
Luc Michaud: we've got four production guys.
I've got three full-time installers, I've got three designers.
I've got one pre-flight body who basically is almost exclusively dedicated to getting
everything set up for rip and the cutters.
We've got me and my business partner, a bookkeeper three quoting staff and
currently one CSR, but we're trying to get another one to get her some help.
And then we have a little specialized division where we do the local work for
Patterson outdoor advertising up here.
So changing out billboards and stuff.
So I've got one, one body dedicated for that.
Bryant Gillespie: What do you get ready to say something, Mike,
Michael Riley: or you just.
I'm just messing with my microphone, just please.
It
for all of our listeners I gotta new microphone and I can't get used to
having this thing right in my face.
So I'm fidgeting with it.
We'll probably cut
Bryant Gillespie: that out.
I see.
Yeah, we missed the the bag of chips from the last call with Peter, where he is.
Peter's got the opposite of Mike's microphone, where if you
could put it in the next room and you could hear a mouse fart.
Was that, is that what you said daily?
Michael Riley: yeah, mine's the opposite.
Bryant Gillespie: I think that's a pretty good picture of your business, Luke.
And thanks for sharing that with us.
What what questions do you guys have for Luke?
Let's start 'em out with something easy.
Maybe then we'll give him like a hard one throw 'em a softball, Mike.
I know you've got some.
Michael Riley: Luke, what is your growth strategy, man?
How do you what is your plan for growth?
What are you trying to, to do?
Where are you trying to go with the company?
I know you, you touched on that a little bit but kinda expand a little bit on it.
Where your what's your five year and 10 year plan or goal?
For growth.
Yeah.
Luc Michaud: We don't have anything formalized per se, but I think both
me and my partner are our goal is to not retract ourselves from the
business, but probably step back a bit.
Maybe we can do put in some four day weeks and manage and control
a little bit more so than doing the work if that makes sense.
Sure.
Uh,
Michael Riley: How do you plan on achieving that?
Luc Michaud: Yeah, so essentially we, I think we've known for a long time that
SOPs and training as well as maybe some additional structures like employee
handbooks or, things along these lines that again can get all the information
out of our heads and be readily accessible for anybody who needs it in
any moment, as well as, having a front end onboarding kind of training program.
And of course you can't learn everything in the industry by
doing some modules online, right?
Like it's just too complex and you need to get your hands on
to really, truly understand.
But we really feel like getting somebody set up and having some
foundational knowledge and understanding.
You know what each piece of equipment is for and how it works.
And some of the basic understanding and knowledge before you even get them on
the table or in the production room.
Right.
So that's what we're working on right now.
And we feel like that'll, help alleviate us from having to cause
what happens, you end up your staff ends up being leashed to you, right?
Is you can send them away to work on something, but they have to come
back and ask you for clarification or approval or, material recommendations
or whatever the case may be.
And you, when you've got 20 people coming at you from six different angles all day,
you really that's stressful accomplish
Michael Riley: yourself.
What about from a product standpoint?
I know, you said you guys are a Jack of all trades when it comes
to signage right now, because.
You're in a smaller market.
So you have to serve all the needs there as part of your growth strategy.
Do you see pairing back your product offering to more of a core a core set of
products or, play to your core strengths?
Or do you intend to continue to expand on that, offering everything to be
the one source for all your customers?
Luc Michaud: I think we're trying to figure that out right now, cuz it's again,
the workload is like forcing change, you know that 25% every time you turn
around I often say, I don't say this to everybody, you always get the oh, we're
so busy and everybody says, oh, that's a good problem to have, but it's almost
not like I almost wish, and I've said to my business partner and other people
I just wish that two years in a row, we could do the same numbers, two years in a.
So you can really get a handle on like where things are at and what
you probably need to implement to handle the workload that you're at.
The ne next year you could actually work on all that stuff
and implement at least some of it.
Right.
But I feel like right now there's 25% growth.
And then you think you got a bunch of stuff figured out, and then the next
year, 25 more percent happens and you need to reevaluate everything again,
because you were never able to implement
Michael Riley: anything from the, so what would happen if you guys just started
saying no to certain types of work?
Like you're some of your more
Luc Michaud: kind of going back to the same question, we're
going through that right now.
We're trying to figure out, how do we adjust what we're
doing and what we're learning?
We ran some numbers and figured out that so we've got 310 active
jobs in our system right now.
And we ran some numbers, turns out that 80% of those active jobs are $250 or less.
And the really shocking number is when you run that and you total
up all those 80% of the jobs, like volume of jobs, they actually only
account for 11 or 14% of the revenue.
Like I can't remember, but it was under 15.
Michael Riley: So basically 80% of your time is spent on 20% of your customers.
Yeah.
Luc Michaud: Like for us, less than 20%.
Right.
And it's you guys know, if you're working in shop box or whatever, CRM you're on,
like how much extra time does a job, that's $10,000 take to enter an input and
get all your details into the system than a $300, partial vehicle graphic, right?
The front end time to, to get all that information, qualify the customer, get
it into the system, have the designer look at it, do the work, send the proof.
You're really not spending that much less time on this little,
tiny job than you are on.
Volume or like large revenue job.
Right.
Bryant Gillespie: Agreed.
Yeah, I feel like so many people leave out that when they start running the numbers,
like you gotta factor in that time of how long is it gonna take to get the order in,
get it processed, get it onto production.
And so many people leave that out of the process when they're either
calculating pricing or even just looking at growth and staffing needs.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
And so we're looking at it like how much time are, am I, like I've got these people
that I'm paying to quote and me and my business partner, quote I actually pulled
myself completely outta quoting a couple weeks ago just to work on systems stuff.
By the way, I forgot earlier, I do have one staff member who's
solely dedicated to working on that that backend stuff with me.
So we can hopefully actually make some progress.
But, we've got this quoting team that we're paying and me and my business
partner we're talking and it's does it even make sense to have these bodies?
So the talk is how do you manage it?
Do you assign one person to do jobs that are $500 or less, but then
on a, and you're like, okay, then at least those jobs are getting
taken care of and somebody's on it.
Right.
But the bigger question is, does it even make sense to allocate a person to those
jobs or does it make sense to try and not get those jobs in the first place?
So that those same three bodies, instead of having two bodies to focus on the
bigger stuff, you could have all three bodies being focused on generally larger
work it cuz if the smaller stuff only counts for 15% of your revenue and you
have 20 staff, really, you shouldn't be allocating more than two bodies, right.
To take care of that work.
Michael Riley: Right.
I'd be curious to know of that.
15% of your business, that's the small nickel and dime work.
How much of that at some point becomes larger, either becomes a larger customer
or becomes a larger job or, through repeat work or is just a small job that a larger
customer, in the grand scheme of things as larger customers is spinning with you.
Yeah, I think
Bryant Gillespie: I would prefer to rank customers that way instead of ranking
each individual opportunity that comes through the door, look at it on like
the customer level, because obviously like it adds up at the end of the day.
And if it's like a lot of small repeat orders for stuff that you've
already got the artwork for, why not?
Yeah.
As long as it's
Michael Riley: profitable, I think in that case, it becomes more of a way,
how you manage it versus whether or not this is the right customer, right.
Fit for you or the, the right product for you to sell of.
The majority of the larger sign companies that I have experience with, talking 2
million plus in revenue they all break out their work in that way, the way you're
talking about where you've got like a, whether it's a workflow or a process or an
actual, physical department that handles that small nickel and dime work, or just
all the vinyl stuff or whatever it may be.
And they have a separate kind of expedited, simpler,
more efficient workflow.
There's a dedicated project manager to all those jobs.
They don't break out the sales front end of it, where, your sales reps, whether
they're selling vinyl door hours, or they're selling a $200,000 pile on
sign, they're still selling the job.
Who they handed off to is where the change is.
If it's a small vinyl job, they hand it off to the like
the retail department manager.
Project manager, and then there's a small dedicated team of staff.
Cranks all that work all day long and allows the rest of the shop
to focus on the high dollar stuff.
And that way you're not just getting rid of customers that even though
the order is small, the customer themselves might not necessarily be an
unprofitable customer that you wanna lose.
It just is a better way of managing their work.
Coming through that doesn't pollute the, the workflow for
the large high dollar jobs.
It's it seems to be the industry standard way of setting it up when you get to
that point and definitely is effective.
And in my experience it works extremely well.
Luc Michaud: That's that all works as long as the customer's willing to wait,
cuz that's the other factor is time.
Right?
So cuz you know, it seems like a lot of these small jobs are the
ones that need to happen right now.
Right?
So it, if the equipment's running, am I gonna prioritize that
small stuff over the big stuff?
Just because it's small and we can do it efficiently, but you're
not really doing it efficiently.
Cause kind.
I think what's happened with us at least.
And I don't basically all the signs point to what's happening is that, or has been
happening, which we're trying to stop is that small jobs come in and they're
small and they're simple and they're easy.
So you feel like this can happen right now, right?
Because it's small and it's simple and it's easy and you end up churning
all the small front end work.
So you've got something that came in on Tuesday, that's done by Friday or even
the following Tuesday, but then you've got other jobs in the system that are bigger.
They're $2,000.
They're really not any more complicated.
They're just bigger.
So say a vehicle wrap or a wall mural, that's no different than making a hard
hat deckle in terms of time on the printer other than slightly longer print time.
Right.
But that wall mural is sitting there for three weeks and meanwhile, we've done.
78 little, $200 jobs,
Bryant Gillespie: so where's the bottleneck there?
Is it in the front end, like the sales and quoting side of it?
Or is it the design side or production?
you, where are things getting clogged?
Peter Kourounis: It's clogging
Luc Michaud: in design for sure, but not really on the small stuff, cuz we did put
one specific designer on that small stuff.
But the production team, like it's tricky, everybody's really green in there.
And because of our lack of structure, we did have some structure and the body
that I moved over into the developer role he's very like analytical and similar
to me, he'll look at the root and the back end and understand the efficiency
map even if it was just in his head.
Right.
So he understands, okay, I'm gonna laminate this stuff and then
I'm gonna put it on the cutter.
And while the machine's cutting it, I'm gonna go weed or mask this other stuff.
Right.
Whereas this new crew, they're not quite like analyzing things that way.
And because we don't have the structure in there they're wrecking a lot of stuff and
they're working fairly and efficiently.
it's a compounding issue, to be honest with you.
There's little stuff everywhere that it all stacks on top of
each other to make a big problem.
Michael Riley: Alright.
So I have a question for you at your sales volume.
I'm guessing that this is this type of work accounts for what 200,
$250,000 a year in revenue, roughly.
Yep.
As a round number.
Yep.
What if you set up a sign shop within your sign shop for that work only
where you have a dedicated plotter, maybe the designer for that, where
you're these types of small, short.
Or quick turn jobs don't even go to your main art department.
You've got yeah.
Designer dedicated to that.
And wear the designer slash project manager hat for that type of work.
And they run the plotter.
Maybe you even have a or 250 grand a year in revenue.
I mean, you can justify buying a $20,000 printer in a, another $10,000
plotter, 30, 40 grand in equipment.
And you've got a dedicated department that doesn't bog down the rest of your work.
You know what I mean?
Like at my shop, I didn't really quite go to that level at my shop, but I definitely
had a printer dedicated to short term work or quick turn work where, you only run.
The fast rush jobs on this plotter are on this printer and nothing else.
And it's always sitting there dedicated, waiting, and ready for
those types of jobs to come through.
And they came through all the time and that allowed us to, I didn't
have to worry then about where am I gonna squeeze this rush job on?
I know I've got the capacity, cuz that printer is sitting there waiting for it.
And it's not gonna interrupt a $30,000 job while I print a $200 sticker job.
Yeah.
And I've seen a lot of shops go to that level too.
Like I said, I mean the best way to describe it is a sign shop within the sign
shop or you create, you become a customer.
Your main business becomes a customer of this little sign shop,
I guess, for lack of a better term.
Is that, would that be a possibility for you guys to, to structure
that way that would allow you to physically separate out that work on
the shop floor from high dollar work?
Or is that there's a lot of logistics that go into that obviously.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
I don't
think it would necessarily be impossible.
The, we do have a second printer that I don't even have set up
right now from the acquisition.
which also happens to be a latex, which kind of caters to that type of, yeah,
Michael Riley: there you go.
I mean, instantly dry.
I mean, you can turn it up.
Luc Michaud: So yeah, you could maybe set it up where you had
essentially just a sales dedicated sales for that type of person.
And then maybe you just had an old school, like back in the day body when
me or Travis did everything just have one body that took care of project
management, design production, install.
And that guy's just like the guy for that, but even that's a little bit tricky.
Just the thing I'm wondering about is like we do have, you asked the question
earlier and I don't think I answered it is there are lots of clients, like we do
work for thinning and we do work for can for which is a huge pulp and sawmill.
I don't know if you guys have can for down in the states, there's probably a
little bit, but basically provide huge amounts of pulp and lumber to the world.
So they're a huge client, but we're generally doing at least
right now, smaller orders for them.
Right.
But so there are situations where there's larger clients, where it still might not
make sense to put it through that separate workflow, but it could maybe work.
I
Michael Riley: don't think it would matter what the size of the actual client is.
If they're a, massive major corporation or whether they're a mom and pop shop.
I mean, I think the de linear there's really more be the size of that job
they're giving you at the end of the day it's work and it's gonna be built
through the same company, regardless.
It's just dividing out the production.
So it doesn't bug down the other flows, right?
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
You're just treating them different on the front
Michael Riley: end of things.
And they would never even know what was happening.
Like the customer doesn't need to know that's the case or the way it's set up.
They just know they're getting their shit faster.
Yeah, for sure.
Bryant Gillespie: Do you get any pushback on your pricing, Luke,
especially for these smaller jobs?
Luc Michaud: The smaller jobs you sometimes can, but we've recently
decided particularly, the other conversation that's actually happening
internally with my business partner is what, if we don't do what if we
just go straight B2B and we don't do any people off the street work, right.
Could be something that would help cuz it tends to be a lot of that
personal stuff is smaller stuff.
Right.
And you just could put it out
Michael Riley: that way.
That was a policy that I enacted in my shop.
I, we just had a strict, if you're not a business, we won't do work with you.
We'll refer you away.
Yeah.
And I always made sure I had a, a book of good referrals for these people.
Right.
Like I, I didn't want to just kick into the curb and tell 'em you're outta
luck, but that makes a big difference.
I, we all know that if you're working for.
The individual who wants a sticker for his car.
I mean, he's, he is gonna drive you nuts on that.
Cause they want it to be perfect and they're gonna be picky and
they don't know what they want.
And that's a huge bottleneck.
It still has to be under a hundred bucks.
Right.
And they want it cheap too.
I mean, yeah.
And it's just the nature working for the general public.
Yeah.
Or business owners generally.
I mean, this isn't a
Luc Michaud: obvious, we don't have a formal policy, but what we've done
recently is we've just started quoting those jobs, like stupid high, right.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
That's a good way to do it.
One of the things minimum.
Yeah.
One of the things that worked for us in the old shop was just, it like
shut the door, it's appointment only if you've got somebody who
can you could either shift that too.
Or especially if you guys are bottlenecked in production shutting the door and
walking away from that type of work.
If they can't get in, they can't bother you.
, Michael Riley: I'm a big proponent of that as well, because the.
I don't care what size your shop is.
There is absolutely nobody on this planet who needs a channel letter sign, right?
This second, it's a long term project.
You don't knock 'em out overnight.
It takes a while.
There's a lot of hoops to jump through.
It's no matter what that customer thinks, it's not a rush.
If their hair's not on fire, they don't need to walk in your
door and talk to you about that.
Right?
This second, they just don't.
And it's gonna be an interruption to your business, set an appointment, talk to 'em
about it, clear some time to do it right.
And the larger you get, the less walk in business is critical to your success.
People just don't walk in up the street and say, Hey, I need a $200,000
pile on sign and I need it right now.
Bryant Gillespie: That happens at fast sciences.
Michael Riley: I didn't say this time,
Peter Kourounis: Peter lay off, there is nothing wrong with a
structured well orchestrated business model that you just have to follow
everything that Luke's problems are.
I have it already because it's a system.
It's a system that they got up on that you buy into.
You want SOPs?
I got it.
You want training?
I got it.
my Lord.
You guys give it a bad name.
You've
Bryant Gillespie: been sitting on that one for a while.
I
Peter Kourounis: got it.
Luc Michaud: That's why he's been quiet for half an hour.
Peter Kourounis: not doing I've.
I've been sitting here.
I've been sitting here taking notes.
Okay.
I like to learn a lot about a different type of sign shop, particularly one across
the border that I know very little about.
I, what I know about Luke is that he owns a sign shop and
that he rides a motorcycle.
That's all I know.
I don't know much more.
And that.
So I'm trying to take a deep dive into another man's
Bryant Gillespie: perspective into what
Peter Kourounis: makes his shop work.
That's why I'm remaining silent, but then you gotta drop fast signs like that, man.
Bryant Gillespie: I just trying to get a reaction out.
You've been sitting there playing, I saw you switch the camera like six times.
I just wonder what's going on
Michael Riley: since I'm on a lawsuit kick today, I wonder how long it's gonna
take for the fast sciences corporation to Sue us for shitting all over the
Luc Michaud: slander I got no problem with fast signs.
I just, I wouldn't name my company fast signs.
Cause I feel like you're just inviting the wrong type of customer,
Michael Riley: I think it depends on the type of business you wanna be in and
the type of customers you wanna serve.
I mean, I think there's definitely a huge market there for quick turn sign
engine, trade shows and storefront lettering and stuff like that.
I mean, I definitely think there is I cannot.
And this is speaking from not ever having been fast signs or anything like that.
I just cannot imagine trying to compete in the larger electrical
sign market or, or higher dollar jobs when your lead is fast turnaround.
Cause those jobs are just, they're slow.
I mean, they're long term slow long lead time jobs.
And I just, I always have to wonder,
Peter Kourounis: let me put this to bed.
Okay.
This is this this episode is not a fast signs bashing episode,
but let me absolutely not.
Let me put this to bed for you guys.
And I'm not going to bat for fast signs.
I'm a fast signs franchise owner, because I believe in a systematic
approach, they have a very good system.
When you implement a system, whether it's a sales system, a marketing system,
a lead generating system, and it all works really well together in UN.
Guess what you can do.
You can turn signs around faster than most.
Whether it's a parking sign, whether it's a printed sign or a post panel,
sign, it allow having a system allows you to focus on creating a product
faster than most people that are spinning their wheels in the mud.
Luc Michaud: So the divert I, Pete and apology, I apologize.
That's the goal I'm trying to reach.
That's the crest of the mountaintop fast signs is where I want to be.
Michael Riley: Peter, I have a question for you.
I'll try and ride their coattails.
I have a question for Peter, cuz we're on the topic of beating up fast signs
and I don't mean to get us off topic, but like this is like a legitimate question.
And I'm curious, does the name fast signs, prime your customers for
expecting unrealistic turnaround times on certain types of jobs?
That's the biggest issue I have with fast signs is actually the name of the company.
It, I believe it sets up customers for unrealistic expectations, especially
if they're going out to get bids on, let's say they want a bid on a monument
sign and they're going to two really large electrical sign companies.
And the fast signs are they, is that setting them up to expect
unrealistic turnaround times from other sign companies?
I guess, you know what I mean?
Is it's sign
Bryant Gillespie: money, Mike, cranking up the heat
Michael Riley: and I'm not saying that like bad mouth, fast signs.
I'm genuinely curious.
I don't, I've always wondered that.
And I don't know from from your perspective, owning a
fast sciences franchise, does that create problems for you?
Cuz it, to me in my mind, it seems like it would cuz like the world that I come
from a channel letter sign is an eight to 12 week lead time period at a minimum.
If you want a monument sign, you're looking at eight to 12 weeks.
I, is that creating, is it creating false sense of urgency in the customer's mind?
And is it devaluing?
What, and I'm not talking about like the final store hours or
parking signs, stuff like that.
I'm talking about high dollar signage.
Does that devalue that signage?
Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna, can I jump in for on this one?
Sure.
I'm gonna take you.
I'm gonna take your side pilot on top.
No.
I really think it's just about getting people through the door.
Really?
As you got two hypothetical sign companies, nothing about either one
of them, one is called fast signs.
The other is.
John's signs or, whatever, the awful business names that some
people come up with are sign
Peter Kourounis: shots, sign tech.
Bryant Gillespie: Hey, now shots fired.
Which one are you gonna pick?
Peter Kourounis: I, no, I can't fact truth here.
A fact, I created a business model called sign techs which
was a sign service franchise.
So I don't, I actually really like the name little fact there
about what I've done in the past.
All right.
Let me answer your question, Mike and I'm gonna use Brian's analogy.
Yes.
From a customer's perspective, it, people can resonate with the
branding of a name, like fast signs.
If they know nothing about company a, or company B, the name
represents what people are looking for, which is a quick turnaround.
Very simplistic branding approach red in blue.
It's got that American feel to it.
Right?
But from, to answer your question a little bit more deeper, listen,
like we, fast signs is known for certain type of product.
In fact the executives that might listen to this podcast would be the first to
tell you that their approach is going after vinyl related signs, interior
decor, that's their entire philosophy.
Now what you don't know about fair signs is that is, that makes up a, a
significant percentage of their stores.
So all you guys that give fair signs, a bad name, that's the model
that you understand, vinyl related production, 1500 square foot building.
Quick turnaround vending 30% of their outsourcing 30% of their work, but there
are a significant amount of us, I'd say less than a hundred worldwide that, or I
should say, not worldwide you in the us that manufacture just like you all do.
Right?
So getting a monument sign, getting an on and getting a channel letter, sign,
a sign cabinet made and fabricated.
We do it, but do it a little bit, again, I'm gonna fall back on the
same terminology with a bit of a more systematic approach that allows us
to quote the customer faster, get a mock up, done faster, schematic
done faster, potentially turn that product around faster as well.
So in a way it resonates with the name, but.
Fast signs in general the franchise is built around systems and processes that
are designed to make you run a little bit more efficiently than a typical
independent sign shop owner would.
Now I'm not saying it's better or worse.
What I'm saying is that when you buy into a franchise, it's because you want those
things, want those items that are going to allow the owner to focus more on their
business, rather than on the things that are Luke here is looking to grow with.
If I'm looking to grow, I just speak to my franchise coach about what's
the next step to help me grow.
And they're gonna pave the way and point that way for me and
all and other franchise owners.
So this, listen, I'm not turning this into a buy a franchise episode here but.
At the end of the day, some of the issues that you have as an
independent sign shop owner are solved within the franchise model.
Bryant Gillespie: So it's maybe what you guys can do.
Luc Michaud: Take somebody clip that and trigger.
I'm gonna use the young kids clip that you can take, that you should be taking that
to fast signs corporate, and see if you guys can get a sponsor for the podcast.
Cause that was like, there go the best, fast sign commercials I ever heard.
Michael Riley: I don't think they'll pull that sponsorship so fast.
As soon as I open my mouths.
Bryant Gillespie: If Peter can easily defend fast signs in the
face of sign money Mike's attack.
I mean, what better average easement is or
Michael Riley: Peter I appreciate that response and
that's what I was looking for.
And I honestly, like I don't have anything against fast signs.
I have something against my local fast signs, which is why I referred them
all a race car as a whole, I don't have anything against fast signs.
I'm just always curious what.
how the name and the marketing around fast signs affects the perceiving.
Peter Kourounis: I think it customer value.
I think it benefits.
I think it benefits the owner of having such a simple branding.
Sure.
I mean, that's a name that people can report that, but it helps us, right.
If you're always, if it's all about sales, right?
If it's about lead generating, then having a simplistic name, which
customers can relate to is a very important piece to the puzzle.
We should bring on some executives on the fast science team
and see what they think next
Michael Riley: episode.
Oh, that'll be interesting.
Bryant Gillespie: All right.
I'm gonna reign you guys in, bring this back on topic.
So we've established Luke.
It's all about systems.
You need to be quoting faster, producing faster, all that.
And I, from chatting with you both here today, and a couple
conversations we've had in the past, you understand the need for this.
Hey, we've gotta systemize the business.
Yep.
Why aren't you there now?
It doesn't seem like this is a brand new thing
Luc Michaud: yeah.
No, I think I'm definitely like, I've always been a systems guy and an
efficiency guy, like before I worked at the sign shop, I was an operations
manager at the brick which is a large furniture franchise chain up in Canada.
And
Peter Kourounis: you guys got a lot of funny businesses in Canada.
Luc Michaud: Funny.
In what way?
Peter Kourounis: I've never heard of a pulp business or
Luc Michaud: a pulp or a, you don't know what pulp is?
Yeah.
Oh no.
Fran pulp is where paper comes from.
You need to get up on that, man.
When you wipe your ass later today, you can think about
canned for in prince George.
Think about Luke
Peter Kourounis: can four and then the brick sounds like some
really interesting branding going on up there across the border.
So you know what the tie-in is to the brick.
Bryant Gillespie: He still salty about
Luc Michaud: the F side.
So yeah.
Anyway, so the brick started in Edmonton and the guy who owns the brick, his
son played on the Edmonton Oilers.
There's a weird tie in, but anyways yeah, so anyways, I've had the
systems, knowledge and stuff.
I've seen it.
But I think probably, when said this on the mastermind calls to the
groups, but, either way it's, I think most of us that get into the signed
business are, maybe like you Mike, you're a designer first and foremost.
Or, my business partner started the company, our company.
He was working at a sign shop, basically running the show as a
manager, his boss stopped paying him.
And he said, you know what?
I'm not getting paid anyways.
Why don't I just go start my own thing?
Right.
And others of us are people like you say, or said earlier, you wanna make
cool shit because you can make cool shit.
And you're either a craftsman or a trades person.
And I think we all, that's where for most of us, I think it originates
is that's the goal is to make cool shit and hopefully make some money.
Right.
But none of us or I should say the majority of us don't really
understand the making money part.
Right.
We understand the making the cool shit part, but making money part is something
you have to learn along the way.
And I think it's hard to do when you're in the weeds, like it's busy
and you're focused on getting the stuff done and taking care of the.
And when you're putting in, 12, 14, 16, 18 hour days, 5, 6, 7 days a week,
it's hard to find the time to do that.
Particularly, if you don't have the knowledge set or the knowledge base,
like it's a really daunting task.
Like it's a lot of work and, I wish we had done it when we were smaller
and the scope wasn't so huge now that we are as big as we are the scope
of the project that we need to, the structure that we need to put in place.
Like it's a lot.
Right.
And when you're just trying to take care of your customers and get the
work done, it's hard to even research what you're supposed to be doing on the
other side, which is the business side.
Right.
So I think most of us are tradespeople and that's really.
a lot of shops probably find themself,
Stuck it stuck in the middle of it.
Bryant Gillespie: I agree with what you said a hundred percent.
Yeah.
And we've Peter and Michael and I have talked circles around
this thing for a long time.
And strangely enough, it does come back to the, like the Fize thing
where like a lot of the franchisees fast signs is targeting, people
who are leaving a career in middle management or, people that, that come
from the business side of things.
and they're selling them.
Okay.
Hey, this is a high margin industry and Hey, you can run this small business.
It's all there for you.
Whereas like you said, a lot of independent owners are , they either
worked at a sign shop previously for some other owner that sucked
or didn't want to pay them enough.
And the rest of these guys know, like the only growth, if you're the number
two or number three guy in a small shine shop is starting your own outfit.
So you get really good at the technical side of it producing the size,
designing stuff, putting it together.
But yeah, if you worked under a, an owner who didn't have a good handle
on the business side, you probably inherited some of those things as well.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
Or you bought his company cuz he was sick of it and burnt out , unloaded his
problems onto you without telling you, and then you're just perpetuating the cycle.
How many shops change hands?
How shops that aren't making money a lot, a lot there, there's a lot
of turnover in the industry, right?
There's always shops, opening and closing and changing hands.
And I think a lot of that is just rooted in the fact that people aren't making
money and they don't know what to fix and they get burnt out because, as a
tradesperson, it's easy to focus on the trade and that's not how you make money.
Michael Riley: What I'll argue what you just said there, Luke,
I think being a trades person, especially if you wanna go to the
next level and produce real signage, I think you need to know the trade.
I think you need to be the business owner as well.
And I think that's the hard part is.
Is wearing both of those hats, but I genuinely don't think that you can go
to the next level if you're not in some way, shape or form a trades person,
or at least put a trades person in an upper management role that can steer
the direction of a sign company, because you've gotta be a sign maker to be yeah.
In assignment.
Luc Michaud: I think what I meant more so was that if the business piece is
Michael Riley: missing.
Luc Michaud: Sure.
Right, right.
You're ne you're never going to if you don't either actively understand that
you need to become a businessman or if you're not a businessman already, like if
you have no motivation to, to sort that out, you're just never gonna get there.
And some guys just do it naturally.
They're just street smart.
Right.
And they're like, I don't give a fuck.
I'm not gonna do this sign if I'm not gonna make stupid money on it.
So it's just me in my shop and I'm gonna charge you $5,000 for this sign.
Cause that's what I want to charge you.
And if you don't want to pay it, what do I care?
Right.
Some guys just get that.
But I think a lot of us get stuck in the trap.
We have to be competitive and we're new to the market.
So we gotta be cheaper than the other guys so we can win some business.
And those are really like in hindsight, we did that, right?
In hindsight, those are faulty models.
You can't make money that way.
And ultimately you either learn to make those adjustments or you fail, right.
Or you just never make money and you get burnt out.
And
Michael Riley: what you just said there, I think is like
it hits the nail on the head.
Like the guys that know this is what I want for it.
This is how long it's gonna take it or leave it.
I don't care either way.
Those are the ones that go to them.
Every single owner of a large successful high dollar sign company
that I know adopts that mentality.
They don't care what anybody else is charging.
I don't care what the guy down the street charges.
I don't care how long their lead time is.
This is my price.
This is my lead time.
This is how we.
If you don't like that, there's the door.
And that is ultimately, I think what separates the good
sign company owners so bad.
Bryant Gillespie: It's hard to coming from the small side of it.
It is really hard to break yourself of that mentality of once you
get in that habit of Hey, we gotta have this job or that job.
And it's really hard to break yourself at that cycle.
Even if you're conscious of it is still difficult sometimes.
Michael Riley: When I was at security signs, I watched them an opportunity
to bid on a $2 million project, came through the door, tons of signage
for a big outlet mall, huge, massive, 30 by 60 EMC along the highway, the
whole nine, it was a monster project.
It was, it's like the type of project that makes or breaks a sign
company and they passed on the job.
and it blew my mind, like, why would you pass on a, $2 million job, but
they knew that there's just they couldn't get enough for that job.
I mean, they knew that to do that, right.
They needed to charge more, they needed more time than what the
customer was willing to AOT.
And they just said, there's the door.
We don't want your money.
It blew my mind.
But there's, I mean, they came out better for it.
And the signed company that got the job ended up absolutely nearly going bankrupt
for it because they were so excited to get the job and not have a walk out the door.
So I think just being able to recognize your strength and weaknesses and know when
to walk away and know what you're worth and what your, what your true value is and
what your actual value proposition your customer is, I think is critical there
. I think Pete
fell
Luc Michaud: asleep.
, Bryant Gillespie: he's taking notes.
Oh
Luc Michaud: shit.
Oh, I saw some eyebrows.
Bryant Gillespie: My headset's dying.
Yeah.
I'm at 20% had some gal in my ear, low battery.
Where we go from there, Peter?
Yes, sir.
You took 8 million notes.
What do you got?
Peter Kourounis: Let's start with the, let's start with wrapping up
with Luke's last notes there that most shops are not profitable now.
Not profitable is a common issue for a lot of shops that are spending
a lot of time in their business and not working on their business.
This is a very common problem for sign shop owners that
are, maybe they are tradesmen.
Maybe they are business people.
That do not understand the trade.
It's a healthy mix of both owners, both types of owners.
There's a gentleman, there's a gentleman that owns a very large
shop here, right across the bridge here in New Jersey for me.
And he has a very sizeable operation and he talks to me all the time
about wanting to be more profitable.
But that requires him to lock the door and focus in on how to do that.
What pivotal decision does your business tell you that allows you to maximize
and make a more profitable decision or more profitable business in the future?
Whereas there are other owners that who, I bring, I'm not gonna mention
this person by name, but we just got out of a consultation call and he's
wearing, he doesn't understand marketing.
He doesn't understand the website and they get a bunch of orders, but they're
only doing $20,000 in sales a month.
And he wants to figure out how to do more and needs somebody to
basically turn the key and make it hap make it happen for him.
So there's various different levels of what that looks like.
And usually a, an owner that in my estimation, an owner that can step
away from his business and focus on picking it apart, maximizing on its
on its abilities, putting people in the right seats to gain that traction
are gonna be a profitable entity.
They're gonna be a profitable business.
They're going to be a scalable business and they're going to be
a business where there's going to be a decent exit strategy.
And I'd be interested to ask Luke this question.
I'm gonna ask Luke this question from the company that you acquired.
Okay.
What was there, what am I gonna ask this question the right way?
what type of company were they, what were their issues?
What were their weaknesses that you identified in that acquisition?
Bryant Gillespie: They
Luc Michaud: have even had less systems than we did.
The entire staff was very much leashed to one individual.
Peter Kourounis: Were they profitable?
Luc Michaud: No,
Peter Kourounis: were not profitable.
And from what you said earlier, they came to you and said, would you like to buy us?
So they solicited you to, for their exit strategy, like we're done.
It's not working out.
Save us.
That's basically what they said to you
Luc Michaud: essentially.
So there's more going on there.
Peter Kourounis: basically the previous owner.
Luc Michaud: Who was basically running the shop, but was I'm just trying to
figure out how to word this in such a way that I don't mess up an NDA.
Peter Kourounis: Okay.
Yeah.
I don't wanna do that.
But what I'm getting at is this basically there was a body that wanted out.
Luc Michaud: Right.
Okay.
And so the mandate was if you want out, then you need to find a buyer.
Peter Kourounis: Understood, understood.
And you can leave it at that.
I'm not trying to put you in any contractual damage here, but what I'm
trying to get, the point that I'm trying to make here is that you had in your
own experience, a sign shop, what you identified as a big competitor for you.
Yeah.
Did not have a systematic approach and also was not profitable
and also had no exit strategy.
correct.
Other than to poach you.
So there you have it.
That to me, that is the point I'm trying to make is that if you want
to be a profitable entity, if you want to be a profitable sign shop, if
you're out there and you're listening and you're not profitable, it starts
with identifying that you need systems in place that can keep you, that
can keep you out of your business.
If you're the Chuck in the truck, if you are the gentleman, that's
making signs, installing signs, okay, stop what you're doing.
You're doing it wrong.
You need to spend time being an owner.
Take it from me.
Scalability and growth didn't happen until I was able to step away, make
pivotable, pivotal growth decisions that will allow you to be an owner.
Not a graphic designer, a project manager, a salesperson.
You are an owner.
Now you may have came into this business as a tradesperson, but
the moment you incorporated your business, you became a business owner.
That's my 2 cents.
Bryant Gillespie: I think that's well said, man, you've gotta turn off the
tradesman side and go into business owner mode to make any real progress.
Peter Kourounis: Yeah, man.
And listen I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say one thing here that I think I, I don't
think I've ever said on another episode.
So I got into this business because my father who owns a bagel store purchased
window graphics from a local vinyl shop for one window, he spent $700.
My father approached me and said, Pete, this is a profitable business
with explosive profit margins that you could use your design skills in.
And that was the beginning to why I got into this business.
And you can understand that I relate to Luke.
I wa I came into it as a tradesman, like I had to learn the business, but I
was a graphic designer, but the moment I incorporated my business and put
my name on a certificate of business authority, I became a business owner.
I became a shareholder of my corporation.
And now that is a, that became a living, a breathing organism that has to be fed.
You have to treat it like a human.
You have to treat it with respect.
You have to pay attention to what it's telling you.
Not it.
Yeah.
Making fancy signs are fun.
And it really is what makes this business a great business to be in.
But at the end of the day, you need customers to make fancy.
And customers are what pay the bills and you have to grow that
living and breathing ation.
Luc Michaud: Yeah.
I'll just say it's we've already come to that realization and I've like in
the last month or so I, I fully pulled myself out of quoting, which is the big
like technician or tradesperson role.
I was still fulfilling in order to start building all that stuff.
And I'm excited to see like what we can do to make the shift and get the structure in
place and, just be working on the bigger,
Bryant Gillespie: oh no.
Michael Riley: Oh no.
Peter Kourounis: Didn't tell me that.
Didn't just tell me that didn't just happen.
Bryant Gillespie: Luke down.
Luke is down
Peter Kourounis: He's gone
Let's try and get Luke back on the line.
Hey guy behind the glass.
Let's get Luke back on the phone here.
Michael Riley: If fast signs fails, we know Luke.
If you're
Peter Kourounis: listening, please dial 1 805 6 7 1 2 3 4.
Me here, you there.
Michael Riley: I get a future at radio.
He does.
Yeah, I think he missed his calling.
Oh, he
Peter Kourounis: is.
I'm just quo.
I'm quoting some old radio.
Hi, you've reached the schmooze.
Me here, you there.
welcome to w F a N sports radio I'm taking.
Luc Michaud: All good.
Should be fine here.
Yeah.
Anyway, so I think what I was gonna say is that we, I've known
all this information for 10 years.
Right.
But you're just caught in the weeds.
You really are.
Right.
And it's hard to pull yourself away when you just feel like you're obligated to do.
To do the work in the moment.
Right.
So I have pulled myself away, completely from the tradesperson role now.
I was doing a lot of quoting in kind of the architectural way, finding new
builds type jobs is what I was doing.
And I stopped doing that a month ago.
And I'm excited that what I'm working on now is the stuff that I've known that I'm
supposed to be working on for a decade.
So it's it's tough.
Everything's like I said to my business partner, like the bad news is
everything's fucked up, but the good news is that everything's fucked up
and we know how to pick a lot of it.
It's just a matter of fixing it.
Right.
And we can make a lot of that Kaizen small incremental change.
And we'll see drastic change in improvement.
Right.
So it's, I don't want to give the impression we're like we're in trouble
as a company cuz it's not the case.
It's just, you guys all know what it feels like to be in a shop where yeah.
You're just, there's more work than you can keep up with.
Right.
And absolutely.
And so I'm excited to be actually functioning in that business owner role,
even though it's just started and we haven't seen the fruits of the efforts
quite yet, but to just be actually doing that and doing that full time even,
cause I know a lot of time they recommend oh, just put two hours a day aside.
Right.
But I'm like, we're at the point where like I have to me and Travis, like we
have to get a lot of this stuff sorted out and to be focusing on that a hundred
percent of the time like it's exciting.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Yeah.
We're definitely stoked for you and you, Hey, that's part of the that's
really the biggest piece of it.
Making the decision and sitting down and actually doing that for anybody that's
actually gonna listen to this one what was the impetus or like, how did you do that?
I feel like a lot of people they understand they need to work on
systems and it's Hey, if we just do this, then we can get that done.
Luc Michaud: I think honestly, the biggest piece, I think the biggest
piece that allowed me to step away completely is to really, truly fully
understand that it doesn't need to be me, have some humility and understand.
I think a lot of us are like, I know this I can do it better than somebody
else that I hire, so I should do it.
Right.
But I think really.
That's not true.
It's a lie.
We tell ourselves to continue to stay in our comfort zone and do what we know as
opposed to pushing ourselves and really addressing the larger issues at hand.
So having a little bit of humility and maybe just diving into fear
of the unknown, and just saying, you know what, it doesn't need
to be me that builds this quote.
It doesn't need to be me that does this layout.
I don't need to be the person that needs to go into this room and Mount the sign
because the customer's waiting for it.
Right.
Other people can do those things and it doesn't need to be you that's the biggest
that I think realization or tipping point of a sign shop owner is that you,
your business is still your business.
If you are not the guy doing this stuff.
Right.
And your customers still.
I think, recognize that as well.
Peter Kourounis: Said, I think that's huge, very well said.
I hope that some of our listeners out there can understand the severity
and boldness of that statement that, you're in the weeds, you're in the mud.
You can, you continue to forget about building your business,
but you have to know that's the end game you have to get there.
Right.
And, I appreciate that statement.
I appreciate the honesty, Luke.
That was a very, I resonate with that statement.
So I hope that our listeners do as well.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: All right guys, Luke been a pleasure having you on, man.
I think 2, 3, 4 months from now, whenever you guys are further down
the line, maybe we have you back and talk about what you've you figured
out over the last couple months.
Luc Michaud: Sounds good to me.
Thanks for having me
Michael Riley: guys.
Thanks, Larry.
This is cool.
Bryant Gillespie: It's been great conversations guys.
Okay,
All right guys.
So let's bring this one to a close let's.
Wrap it up, Peter.
rapid fire didn't we do that last time.
What's your one quick takeaway from today?
Rapid fire rapid.
not so rapid Mike.
What's what's your one takeaway from today?
Michael Riley: My one takeaway from today is you gotta abandon ship when you
want to be a business owner, or at least abandon the the technician mentality.
When you want to take your business to the next level, or maybe not fully
abandon it, but at least give it equal space with the business ownership
mentality, and figure out how to let your technical side compliment the
business owner's side and vice versa.
And if you don't have it any, to be the business owner, find somebody who
can and pay them to do it for you.
Bryant Gillespie: That's a good point.
It doesn't have to be you as Luke mention it doesn't
Michael Riley: have to be you.
Absolutely not.
It just has to be somebody.
Bryant Gillespie: I agree.
A hundred percent.
I think it, one of the biggest takeaways for me today is basically getting
space for yourself from the business.
Not only just away from that technic mission, that tradesman personality,
but also just a to get a good visual of where you want to go.
Yeah.
Because especially in this time, everybody's gone through COVID
it's hard to find good people.
You don't have to have a 20 million shop or a 10 million shop or a
5 million shop to be successful.
It's more about finding the ideal shop for you.
What works for you?
We've got a couple of the guys in our mastermind group, which.
if you would like to join, please check out our website, better sign, shop.com.
You'll find it on the website there.
But we've got several guys in the mastermind group that have just jettisoned
all their equipment, all their production team and are now just doing outsourcing.
And it was a lifestyle decision.
So I think one of the most important things you could do as a owner of a
sign shop is get some space from it.
Whether that's taking a vacation that doesn't involve a trade show or
being tethered to wifi on the beach somewhere, while you're answering
emails and give yourself that space to figure out what you really want.
, Michael Riley: and don't lose sight of what you really want either.
I mean, we all gotta into this because we want something and it's usually
a better life than what we would have by working for somebody else.
Don't lose sight of that goal.
I know a lot of people do.
I lost sight of that goal myself, and it's hard to.
Hard to get back on track.
If you forget that, ultimately you're doing this for you and
your family to, to, achieve a better life than the alternative.
Don't forget that.
Rapid fire, take away Peter, go systems, systems, and systems.
You need systems in order to grow and scale your business.
If you don't know what systems are or what systems you want to input into
your business, get in touch with us.
We'll take a quick look at what you can do, and we'll tell you which systems
you need to implement into your company.
Bryant Gillespie: All right.
If you guys have questions for the crusty sign guys on the show, you can email
us at, Hey, at better sign, shop.com and we will address your questions
on the air, or if you'd like to be a guest on the show, how do we do that?
If you would like to be a guest on the show, make sure you shoot us an email.
We will contact you.
We'll talk to you.
We'll have you.
Pleasure guys
Michael Riley: all right, guys, it's been real.
Bye guys.
See it.