Unknown: I have never liked when they when they'll have a talk
show host, bring on a sponsor as a guest, because it just takes
away from all credibility, no
credibility whatsoever, none. And especially if it's iffy, you
know. Yes, you know. And sometimes it is, yes, you know.
And you're like, I can't believe they're making me do this, yeah.
Hopefully the good always outweighs the bad. Yes, you
know. And you get, you know, to program your brands, and you get
to do the right thing all the time. You don't, but if you get
there 90% of the time, or 95% of the time, wow, that's a win. And
I've listened, you know, to stuff that you've done or
whatever, and and go, oh yeah, he's cringing. There's somebody
in the studio they do not want to be talking.
Welcome to a podcast about music and entertainment before it all
goes down the disposal. This is circling the drain.
So for some reason, you guys wanted me to kick this episode
off, so here we go. This is the circling the drain podcast. I am
Jim McCarthy, across from me as the man Johnny B Johnny Bozeman,
say hello, my friend. Hello, my friend. How are you? And to my
left is always Mr.
JR, yes. James Patrick, happy to have you kick us off here. It
does feel a little different, though it does, but I like it,
yeah, yeah. We may have little ways have to do this more often.
Perhaps we're just never again. You know,
why should
introduce our guest? Yes. I mean, you are such, you know, so
familiar with our honored guests that we thought that it would be
appropriate for you
to lead things off. The gentleman that we have today is
somebody I spent a considerable amount of time with. What we
spent about two, three years together, absolutely and at the
the the big powerhouse of 96 three, Jack FM here in
Nashville, Mr. Ron Allen, hey,
yes, sir.
I feel very special that you did the intro and that that's
uncommon. Absolutely, about all
three of us, we are uncommon.
Well, I think I fall into the little different category
myself. I think
we're good. And here's the thing is that you know a lot of
people. You know, when you listen to a podcast like this,
what is it that you're in for? This episode, we talk a lot
about Nashville radio history, and Jack FM is certainly an
indelible aspect, and part of that history since 2005 it's
20 years now. Yeah, that is impressive. 20 years. Yes, it's
one of the first adult hit stations, really, in the nation,
one of the most successful adult hits radio stations and has the
longevity. You know, it's just, what do you know, we're still on
the air. Matter of fact, I just, I just did the creating for a
billboard that says, still on that go up tomorrow. So I think
some people are shocked by that. I know we are.
Well, your billboards have been the best of any radio station.
Yeah.
No, it's fun. We've had a good time with those. And, you know,
it's not rocket science. We're not trying to put up a big
message. People can't read that in three seconds anyway. We're
just trying to have some fun and be a little stupid.
Well, and you're and you're promoting your radio station.
Imagine that absolutely,
you know. And I don't want to knock the competition, but I see
some of their billboards, and, you know, the logos this big,
yes, and then there's a bunch of verbiage, and you just go, I
don't even know what I just yeah, what the heck was that?
It's terrible.
And then there's some out there that don't even do that.
They don't believe in marketing. Yeah,
there's my advertising in our station, but by golly, we're not
advertising ours.
We don't believe in branding.
Why would you do that? Does that require spending money? Oh, hell
no. We don't do that here. No, we don't have money.
Shareholders would not approve.
Yes, if we can't trade it out, then
maybe some concert tickets. Concert ticket. See free CDs
anymore.
You don't here's the download code. Yeah, check out. When you
go to check out, put this code in, a walk, a walk, a 98 FM.
But heck, the talent does. We don't even get the tickets
anymore. It's all the sales people get the tickets now, so
you don't even get that perk anymore. Well, we
have a suite, you know, our company has a suite at
Bridgestone, and they use it for clients, you know. And then the
salesperson goes and hosts, yeah. And I was like, Wouldn't
it be cool if the talent went and hosted? That? Wouldn't that?
Wouldn't the client want to spend time with the On Air
talent? You would think, maybe the person going, can you give
me money? Can you give me money? They're trying to enjoy a
concert. Jock. It just be like, Hey, do you want a beer? Well,
it's
funny, when I worked at W, L, A, C, never got invited to the
suite, and one night I got we got in. Invited my wife at the
time, and I got invited by the Tennessean. Their suite was
right across from WAC, and I love because there was a
salesperson at the door as we're walking up. And he goes, Oh,
what are you doing here? I'm here to see the game. And he
shuts the door on
Well, you see where you are on the whole
were far nicer. So I'm over there and I'm waving at the
folks this fun night.
You know, it's it's true. And I don't even know why I bring this
up, but I had a birthday last week, and that's not the point
to this. Thank you so much. But the company I work for, you
know, I a couple of people walk by my door and say, Hey, it's
your birthday. Happy birthday. There was no card, there was no
balloon, there was no cupcakes in the break room. There was
none of that. The company that I do a little side work for says,
Oh, by the way, we forgot to give this to you, and it's the
entire staff of their office had signed this card for me, and
there was a very nice gift certificate to take my wife out
to dinner. And I was like, I barely work for these people,
but they're not in radio, so I think they like me more, and
they got me a brand new car, right? I mean, we could talk
step up radio, yeah, but it was just funny. The way radio works
and feels in the vibe today is so much different than it is
than when we all started. Yes, so different. Yeah, not a good
thing. How
quantify that statement?
You've worked like in Wichita and Tulsa? Did you not?
I did. I was in Tulsa, Wichita in Kansas City, before I came
here. And you know, I loved all of those. I loved Wichita Tulsa.
I don't know that I love Kansas City. No one Kansas City is
listening, right? I'm sorry, no, but, you know, I loved, I loved
the vibe of both of those cities. Yeah, you know, I think
Wichita is underrated. You know, I really do. I really do. I
think that it has an inferiority complex. Radio is good there,
yeah, it is. Radio in Tulsa is very good, and so is a fun day.
It was fun. It was a great you know, I started in Tulsa in the
late 80s, so, fairly small company. And, you know, it was a
different world. People truly believed in the product. That
was the foremost thing on everybody's mind, that if we put
the very, very best product on the air that we can, we're going
to invest in it. We're going to invest in our people. And by
doing that, we're going to reap the rewards of we're going to
have high sales and high ratings. And what a novel
concept. Instead of, you know, today, it's a little bit more
of, you know, we're going to save ourselves to prosperity.
And I think we all would agree that doesn't work. No, it does
not, no. So it's changed a lot, and I wouldn't change anything
in my career. I wouldn't go back and do it differently. I'm not
disappointed where I am today. I'm super excited with the radio
stations and the people that I work with. Do I miss those old
days and old times and old ways of doing things? Oh, absolutely.
And unfortunately, I think that we have much more change on the
horizon. I think as we get into, you know, the conversations
about AI in the digital space and and across, you know, market
programming, and there's going to be more cost cutting, more
people are going to lose their jobs. It's not going to be why
we all got into it. I'm hoping that it's still compelling
enough that as people younger have other options, that it
still is a viable format. Moving forward, we'll see, you know, I
mean, I've just got on my soapbox here, so sorry, guys.
No, you know, but there's a lot going on out there, and I still
really believe in radio and what we all do, and where we all came
from, and I just don't think it's as I have a blast, but I
don't think it's as much fun for the average person anymore. I
don't know if I was 1825, years old, 30 years old, this is not
the career I would be. Well, I mean, where are the training
grounds? There are none.
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, wait a minute, a high school actually
has a program. Well, broadcasting, there are
some Yeah.
Well, I even got invited to speak to some college kids that
were that are coming through broadcast, and I turned it down
because it was right after I was let go, yeah, and I thought I
have nothing positive to tell these kids, you know, well, this
is your future.
Something else. There's always going to be the need for
content. I think there are. There are just different
platforms, yes, that are at our disposal, aside from just, you
know, putting a tower up,
and I think challenge will always rise to the top, and you
know, there will be success in what we've all done. It may be
in a completely different form. You may be doing something on
seven radio stations instead of one radio stations. And I hate
that personally, because I don't think that. Were paying enough
attention to the one that you should be paying attention to,
amen, but that's probably the the business model that we're
dealing with now, unfortunately. But you know, we had a 17 year
old intern come in from high school who loves radio and would
love to do something in the industry. And I was very
encouraging. I You don't get to see those people very often. And
so I think of them as unicorns, and I want to, I want to keep
them excited about what I've done my entire life. We just had
a guy come in last week that just graduated. He was 22 he
would love to get into the industry. And that was the
challenge when you have that conversation, when he says to
you, Well, how do I do it? And you go, Well, when I started,
you came in and you did weekends, and you did
overnights, and then you did seven to midnight, and you got
better, and you crafted your craft, and you got to do mid
days, and then you got to do afternoons. And there was this
process, and you got to go to a bigger market, and you got to
make more money, and you had goals and and challenges and
things that you could see in the future that were going to make
this all worth it. The struggle was, there was a goal at the end
that made you think, I can actually make my car payment at
some day. There's not that now. There's you can't come.
Can you fog a mirror? That's the requirement.
Can you fog a mirror? Or, you know, and I would, I would take
this a step farther. It's just not talent, it's sales staffs
the same way. Yeah, it's either, can you fog a mirror, or,
unfortunately, they all look like us, and we're all aging
out. You know, what's the industry look like in 10 years,
we have only five sales people in our building. Oh, my God,
really, only five at this point. Four of them look like us. So
Mark is still there. Mark still there. Is he still there? He's
still there. And he's one of the leading billers in the company.
And there is that, that ability, that he has groomed and grown
and has been successful. Well, he's at retirement age. So what
happens when he retires? Who do you replace him with? So I think
from the On Air and content side of it, we this is our world. We
worry about that. I step back and worry about even the sales
aspect of it. I mean, I get there are other sales jobs. You
can sell something else and transition to radio, but you,
but is that where your, you know, life leads you?
You were on my podcast, you know, earlier this last, last
year, and you know, that's the one thing is, I don't want to
come off like I'm hammering radio. No, not at all. I love
radio, yeah, and that's, this is a romantic, nostalgic view and
perspective of what we all experience got we were lucky
enough to
experience, well, I think we all love radio, yeah, that's why we
got into right?
And a lot of it was what the same message I put out to
anybody who's still left in the business, if I think not, if,
when what you're saying comes to pass, the people that are still
there need to know they are still valuable. Because you have
it over all the different content creators that are out
there on Instagram, Tiktok, that are struggling to create
content, you know, a couple times a week. Do you guys?
You're doing this every day, every day you're doing this
every day. You're already in the rhythm. Yeah, remember that, you
know. And so a couple of people are actually figuring the, you
know, the pivot out, you know, but there, I think they're a lot
of people in the radio business right now are a lot more
valuable to digital marketing companies, like all anybody,
anybody who's like in a management position at a digital
marketing company, whether you're doing content creation
for influencers or whatever. Hire these people. This is what
they do. They live in that creative space. You know, all
the time, there's hope.
There is hope. But I think that though there are less people
doing what we all do every day, there are less people, but there
are still people doing it, and there are less people to fill
those jobs. Either they've moved on to something else, they've
aged out, they got smart. I don't know. There is a need for
young, new talent in the industry, and as an industry, we
have not done the best at bringing those people on board.
And I you know, if you're a broadcaster and you're
listening, wrap your arms around some of these young guys and
girls and bring them in if they're doing a podcast, show
them the positive sides of radio and where it's still growing and
where you can still be successful.
But you know Ron the ability to get into the industry and make a
living. I mean, when you can make more at Chick fil A, I
mean, that that, let's face it, that that's, that's an issue.
It's horrid. I mean, you know, you can't live on 25, or $30,000
a year, $40,000 a year. And you know, there are people in our
building that make $40,000 a year, that have full time jobs,
um. You know, that's rough. You know your your rent is, you
know, 1516, $1,700 in Nashville. How do you how do you make ends
meet? I worry about that. I think about that with my staff a
lot. I go to war with, you know, the people that write the checks
a lot. It doesn't do any good. But the reality that I tried to
remind myself of and I'm so far removed from it, I forget
sometimes. But when I started in this business, my first
contract, I made $750 a month to do seven to midnight, yeah. And
different time, my rent was $200 you know, I get it. But even
when I was in my 30s, and when I was programming, you know,
legitimate radio stations, you know, a 35,000 $40,000 a year
job was kind of expected, you know. And you had to figure out,
how do I do it? And it was worse for the guy doing midday,
because he was making 25 you know, and you just go, we all
struggled through those early years, I think, hoping for a
point where it was going to get better. And I think it did. It
did. It does for a lot of people, but it's not an industry
to get into if you want to get rich, because none of us have
done
it right, right? You know, from a sales perspective, you
mentioned that, you know, sales tax have shrunk as well. I mean,
what do you find is most attractive to the advertisers
these days? Is it the the digital landscape, the website,
the all you know, being on the app, that kind of thing? I mean,
what? What is the, what is the sales point that that your sales
folks seem to really have the most success with, you know,
I will give a tip of the hat to I heart, which I don't do very
often. Their digital division is really good. You know, they,
they've spent a lot of money there. They've spent a lot of
time and energy and effort, and from a sales standpoint,
they're, I think, way ahead of where we are as a company. We
have that division. It's obviously much smaller. I think
we do marry radio and digital together well, and I think we do
create great results for our clients. But I don't think
that's the sizzle for our sales people right now, because,
again, they're older, you know, they they want to go and sell
radio I think that their revenue is more closely associated with
radio spots. You know, the spot buy is going to be bigger than
the digital buy. I still believe, and I think with our
staff, this is true. I hope it is, that the connection that we
have, you know, let's talk about Jack in particular. Moose has
been with that radio station for 20 years. What a great guy. What
a great guy, right? Yeah, and he, he is who he is, on the air,
off the air on the streets, in with the sales force, he will go
out on the streets and pump gas in his shorts and T shirt, and
if a listener comes up, he will make that personal connection,
not because it's part of his job, it's because of who he is
exactly. And he lives that every day. You can't buy that, that
that reality of who he is, those personal touches, that
connection that he can make. And we have other people in our
building that that can make those connections too. You can't
always get that when you're doing seven radio brands, or
whatever you're doing, and AI is not going to do it. That's just
what a terrible thought. But I hope that our sales staff still
sees the value in that personal connection, and I hope that our
listeners still see the value, and that I know they do, and I
believe the advertisers do. I mean, we still do a ton of
endorsements. I think it still works for the client. I think
we're in this cool industry that's so protected. You know,
anybody can start a live stream. Only so many licenses are
available in Nashville. FCC has protected us. We have a lane
that is all to ourselves. No one can come in and encroach on what
we're doing. We have this competitive advantage, but we've
tried to give it away so many times by just not covering the
bases and doing it well. And I try every day. I know there's a
lot of people out there every day that love radio, breathe,
radio, live radio. Still Believe in what we do every day. I think
that there's a long lifespan left for what we do. It's
accessible, it's free, it's easy. Everybody knows what it
is. There's still great music discovery. There's still great
content for talk. These are big voices, big you know, megaphones
that reach so many people, hundreds of 1000s of people
every week. How does that fail? Yeah, we've tried. We try, but
there's a lot of life, I think left. Do we still struggle
through some hard times? It's, you know, it's this year has
been rough. Well, you know,
especially given as we record this, it was just a couple of
weeks ago, we had the major weather event here with the ice
storm, and that really wreaked havoc on the middle Tennessee
area. And that is where radio, the immediacy of it can really,
really shine, unlike any other medium, absolutely.
And I think that a lot of radio stations in town did an
excellent job with that. We were challenged by it a little bit.
We don't have de ICERs on our sticks, on our towers, our
antennas, so y'all, one of the radio stations I program was
actually off the air for 36 hours. You know, that's a pretty
devastating blow in a PPM market.
Well, it broke my wife's heart. Not that
her heart was broken, but I'm glad she listens. You know,
that's a that's hard. Jack was on low power for quite a while,
and mix was almost unlistenable for about 30 hours. And at the
same time, we were getting people calling us, State Farm
and other advertisers were calling us saying, Hey, we would
like to start a pretty significant radio buy at a
pretty significant rate. They wanted on right away. You know,
they wanted to reach their customers. And I actually hit
the brakes and said, well, whoa, we I don't love our signal. Let
me get on the phone with the engineering staff and find out
when we're going to be back to full power before we take this
revenue. And we were able to do that, and I felt good about
moving forward, but, you know, it was almost, we almost lost
money because of it. So, you know, I think you're right, the
the immediacy, when you're in your car and it's snowing and
you're trying to get home, you could flip on the radio station,
and hopefully there's somebody live in the studio who can say,
Yeah, this is what's going on, and this is, you know, this is
what you can expect, Jack and y'all are little different
animals. You know, we don't have that live Air Staff, per se, but
I think we have a valuable service we do, too, and that's
just entertain everyone sure, you know, and and make a local
connection. I have said for Jack, and I would say this about
y'all as well, we're as live and local as anybody else. And
people will look at me and go, Well, no, you're not, did you
not live at all? You're, you know. And I go, you know, every
song that we play, that decision is made in my office. Every
piece of imaging that's written and gets on those radio stations
is written in my office. Every promotion that we decide to do
is decided in my office. Everything that moose does out
in the streets we talk about in my office. We are connected to
the community. We are at events. We are at concerts. We are at
everything that's going on in town. We are part of that. We're
talking about part of that where some of these other companies,
you know, the playlist is corporate, coming from another
city. It's voice tracked, you know, somebody from another city
that's maybe never even been to Nashville. They're they're
reading liners that might not have been written here. You
know, they're on googling Nashville to find out what they
should talk about. You know, we're not doing any of that.
We're actually in this city. We love the city. We're part of
this city, and the decisions about what you hear are made in
this city. So I think of us as a local radio station. The live
part is a little little fishy, but we are in the studio
recording stuff that plays back pretty quickly. We are talking
about the things that are going on in the city almost as they
happen. So I kind of stand by that statement, even though I
get questioned about it.
Yeah, is are they to expedite the process? Obviously, you
mentioned I heart earlier. They have proof of concept with the
like, are they actually on the air, driving and migrating the
audience to the podcasting properties, if you will? I think
that's their goal. Absolutely. Yeah. It's a good goal, yeah,
and it's no. I think their digital space is more important
to them than their terrestrial antennas, which I think it
should be. I think it should be in time. I'm not sure we're at
that moment. They've been working on it for 20 years, 20
plus years, you know, they in various, yeah, and I think
they've gotten a, you know, ahead of the pitch count a
little bit sometimes, you know, they were really early adapters
with HD. I think they saw that there were all these sub
channels that they could, you know, have content on. And they
went out and they spent millions and millions and millions of
dollars on these first generation HD transmitters, who,
by the time they got them all installed, were pretty much
obsolete, you know. And then they found out what we have in
this building, in this cluster, now, we have seven of these sub
channels, but we don't have any content, you know. I literally
know interns that they said, Hey, do you know anything about
smooth jazz? Because you want to run a radio station, you know?
Because they just didn't. There wasn't anything there. And so I
think that the cart got before the horse a little bit. But. I
guess that's a good thing. I'd rather be having to pull back
and learn from my mistakes than sitting on the sidelines. I
think that they drive what we do as an industry. By the way, I
don't always agree with the way they're driving it.
That's my point. Is that I think ultimately, you know, they're
taking on all and spending this money. Are they servicing the
debt? You know, we know bankruptcy said they didn't,
right? This is why they're known as, I heart, right? Okay,
formerly known as Clear Channel, right? Which means to tell me
that eventually they're gonna screw this up too. So I have
faith they're good. So I mean, why not take that business model
with the advantage you guys have, and expedite that, that
same kind of model that seems to be working, you still have the
towers and everything like you still have the live and local
aspect. But, man, build a podcast network. You got plenty
of podcasts here in town. This one being one of them, right?
Absolutely, you can add to a network and sell, you
know, yeah, I think that, you know, my company again, smaller.
We have 92 radio stations. I think that would be our goal. I
think that, you know, pie in the sky, we'd love to get there.
We're just not very good at it, you know. I think we need help.
We have hired some people in the last six months that are
pointing us in that direction. I think there's hope and there's
there's more direction and more of a goal. But it's not easy,
you know. And I think for two reasons. One, you've got these
old school broadcasters, and I may be among them that are
resistant, that aren't 100,000% on board, because I'm worried
about protecting my, you know, my traditional signal. And then
you've just got the expense and the the knowledge to help you
move forward, you know, 2000 I remember late 90s, you know, I
had corporate coming in telling me that everything was going to
focus on my website. You know, we had to sell the website. We
had to get all this stuff going in. I was like, well, awesome,
great. What about all these unsold spots? Why don't we sell
some radio while we're at. And you know that, yeah, our website
is a thing. It's not the thing, right? You know? So we have all
seen things come and go to the industry that was going to be
the next big thing. And I'm not detracting from where we are. I
think we are moving in that direction, but I think that's
why there's some hesitancy and some nervousness about jumping
in with both feet. I heart jumped in with both feet.
They've done really well. They make money from their podcast.
They make money from all their digital investments. Again, I
think they've done really, really well at that side of the
business. Has it been at the expense of what's coming out of
the speakers? That would be my question. They've taken all this
money and dedicated it to their digital platforms and cut Air
Staff, you know, or cut promotions budgets and cut
marketing. And, you know, I, I don't know that that was the
right thing to do. I think they gave up on what got them to the
dance too fast. And I, no one in their organization said we gave
up on radio. I'm sure that was never a conversation, but they
did move a lot of resources quickly.
Well, how many plates are they spinning? Though, over there,
they got events, concerts.
They're spending a lot of a lot of plates. Yeah, they are, and
they're making money from a lot of those spinning plates, maybe
more more at this point, than they are from some of the
terrestrial radio properties, you know, and good for them, you
know, if that, if it was a two way street, if radio paid for
these advancements, and then these advancements started
making money, and they paid for radio to have more promotions,
more talent, more opportunity, exactly, I would be super
excited. I think it's a one way street. I think radio helps pay
for our digital initiatives, and then if there is return from
those initiatives, it goes either to the bottom line or to
corporate. You know, it doesn't funnel back to Wow. We had an
amazing digital year. You can have a couple more part timers,
or you get a new midday show, or, wow, you get a new vehicle,
because your vehicle is 17 years old. You know that? That doesn't
seem to be the business model. You know which? It's a business.
I understand it. You know, none of us, none of us got in to do
this for free, and neither did the corporations we work for.
They expect return on their investment
now in terms of the social media component. I mean, are you being
told to replace, for lack of a better term, a lot of the
marketing that was part of a budget at one time, and now it's
well, you know, Facebook's free.
Facebook's free, yeah, you know, on occasion, I will get some
dollars dedicated, you know, to geo fencing, a concert or
something, if it just makes sense for the brand. For y'all,
it's pretty simple, if, if you know, Clint Black is at the
Ryman, well, there's, there's a fish in a barrel opportunity, I
don't get. Those dollars. Very much. Again, whatever goes to
digital stays in digital, and it doesn't really come back. We we
understand, you know, in our building and my staffs how
important social media is to everyone, how important their
phone is to everyone, how important it is to the survival
of what we do. So we're trying to take advantage of every
opportunity without spamming and without cluttering up people's
lives, to be part of the interaction of their day. And
that's where the moose comes in, or the tailor on y'all, me a
little bit on y'all, we just hired Carissa Ella on y'all to
have a little footprint in their life. And again, it's that
personality driven stuff that if we can get into your social
media a little bit without being overbearing about it absolutely
behooves us. It's something that we need to be doing better at. I
think we we do a fine job. Finds a terrible word we should do
better.
Do you have someone dedicated to keep track of all that? Because
that's that's that's a heck of an undertaking. That's a full
time gig,
to really do it right? I would say that it is a, it is a
village effort, Yeah, unfortunately, for for Jack, for
an example, we have a marketing person who is assigned to that
brand and to y'all so she officially would oversee that,
but she has 15 other responsibilities, sure. So moose
is helping her. I am helping her. Anybody that goes out for
the promotions team, and we do have about six or seven part
time employees that make up the street team. So if they're out,
they post, you know, if I'm just driving down the road and I see
something that makes sense, I'll post. I like it more when moose
does it and, you know, or Taylor does it. I think that no one
really knows me, you know, a little bit on y'all Not, not
really on Jack this much. But when moose or when our
promotions team doesn't, there's not that personal connection. If
moose says, hey, it's moose. And I just saw this just, you know,
and does it through social media, I think there's, again,
that personal connection. There is more sales driven content now
than there was five years ago. Because though we try not to
sell that, when somebody comes in and says, Hey, here's 500
bucks.
You take the money. Yeah, I hear you, yeah.
What is, what would be an example of, like, sales driven.
Content was
that, look, oh, I mean, content is sales driven, you know, XYZ,
grand opening. And if, if we're doing a remote moose is going to
be there, okay, that's fine. But if moose isn't going to be
there, and they just bought a schedule, but all of a sudden
we're posting about this amazing Grand Opening they're doing,
yeah, it crosses a little bit of a line. And, I mean, there's a
little tagline the sponsored content, whatever, but they
don't see that. They just see that we're promoting it, it's
spam to them, or at least that's the way I look at it. If I get
it, I go, Yeah, why did I get this? It's got my logo on it.
Then I'm like, yeah, it's got my logo and I want to do that. Come
on, we're better than that.
Well, it's kind of like talk radio. I have never liked when
they when they'll have a talk show host, bring on a sponsor as
a guest, because it just takes away from all credibility, no
credibility whatsoever, none. And especially if it's iffy, you
know. Yes, you know. And sometimes it is yes, you know.
And you're like, I can't believe they're making me do this. Yeah,
but
you know, hopefully the good always outweighs the bad. Yes,
you know. And you get, you know, to program your brands, and you
get to do the right thing all the time. You don't, but if you
get there 90% of the time, or 95% of the time, wow, that's a
win, you know. And I, and I've listened, you know, to stuff
that you've done or whatever, and and go, oh yeah, he's
cringing. There's somebody in the studio they do not want to
be talking. But, you know, I don't. I think it's forgivable
periodically. I don't know that the audience always holds us
accountable. I don't know if they're as critical about those
things as I am. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but, or maybe we're just
more aware and more in tune. Yeah, yeah.
That's one thing I did love about Phil Valentine, is that he
he never would allow like salesperson would come in and
say, Hey, so and so wants to be a guest on your show. And he go,
no, they're a client. Yeah. He said, I
gotta have a wall for a guy who's programmed music stations
his whole life. I listened to Phil. I was definitely a p1 and
thank you absolutely so honest. Just thought he was such a
bright guy and so So just real and so honest and just so
insightful. I would look at those numbers and afternoons and
just go, Oh, he's killing me. But I. Yeah, he should have
been, you know, those were, yeah, those were great shows.
Well, thank you for that. Yeah, and he was, he was,
and you were a huge part of it, you know, it's just, you know, I
just, I, you know, I miss listening. I miss
it myself. It
was, it was, it's good radio, yeah, and compelling content.
And, you know, not decisive in it, you know, yeah, and just,
just thought out, well,
he was reasonable. He wasn't like a lot of some talk show
hosts are. It's just an echo chamber. It's also, it's like
the guy that they voted for their championing can do no
wrong if somebody that he voted for did wrong. Well, I mean,
look at Glenn cassida, right? He really, right. Laid into him.
Yeah?
I just Yeah. I always felt like he was telling you the truth.
He was, he was an honest guy. That's why I knew I would go
far. I said, I'm not leaving this guy, because he's the most
honest man I've ever met in radio. He'll tell you the truth.
Sometimes it hurts.
I don't know if that's ever been somebody's business model.
Tell the truth, you might win. Wow. Novel concept. Didn't think
of that. Why didn't somebody tell me?
Well, Ron is a guy that programs music radio and has all time,
all these years. What do you see yourself separating music radio
from the Spotify is the YouTube Music, the Apple Music. I mean,
what? What is your advantage?
You know, I think that when I look at the pure plays and what
they're doing and I listen, I I'm part of that group, I guess
I think we still have, and I don't want to harp on it, a
couple avenues that we win. One is moose. One is that, you know,
we're giving you an opportunity to be local personality,
personality content that they don't have. I think even our
writing that's local and funny and entertaining our billboards,
you know, when people see that, they realize there's a
connection there. You know, when I listen to XM, you know,
satellite radio, I'm really into it for about a week, and then
after about a week, I It's weird. I feel like there's
something missing, you know, and I'll be just all in for a week,
and then I won't listen for six months, because I just feel like
there is something going on that I'm not aware of in my
community. And then I'm back to terrestrial radio, I think, with
the writing, the connection, the personalities, and there is
still great music discovery. It's you don't have to. People
are lazy. I'm lazy. I don't have to go to Spotify and search my
playlist, and I put in what I like, and I put this thing, and
it tells me that I might like this guy or whatever. I don't
have to do any of that. I can drive in my car. And some dude
like me picked out some songs they thought I might like and
they're playing them for me, and maybe I do like them. And then I
have music discovery, and I didn't even know I was and now I
have a new artist that I like. I think it can be that simple, you
know, I think you still have, you know, it's crazy as it is,
you know, somebody's doing a big show at Bridgestone, and
everybody's excited about winning those tickets. That's
really not who we are as radio stations, but that personal
connection and that fun is who we are. You know, we're doing
trips to the Caribbean a couple times a year. A lot of people
just they're never going to have that experience unless we give
it to them. You know that people work really hard and to take,
you know, $10,000 and go on a vacation is just not reasonable
for them at this point. I think we offer really cool things for
them to interact with, us with and I just think that we're
family to them to some extent. Panda, Pandora is never going to
offer you that correct, no, correct,
no, and they don't have moose, and they don't have moose. I
mean,
I mean, they don't have the budget that we have for his
shorts.
I'm just so glad that you guys have kept him this long as you
talk about a personality that, oh yeah.
Well, and I went here pat myself on the back when I came in and
Jim, you'll probably remember some of this. His image was a
little different, you know, they, they kind of had him in,
you know, broken glasses with a piece of tape. Yeah, they had
the pocket protector and, you know, the short sleeve shirt
untucked. And I was, I, one of the first things I did when,
when I got there, is I sat down with him and said, Is this you?
And he was like, oh, no, this is not me at all. And I was like,
Well, who are you? You know, as a person, who are you? Yeah. And
he said, Oh, this big lovable teddy bear. And I said, Well,
then, why are we doing that? Exactly, why don't you just be a
big lovable teddy bear? He goes, Well, I wear goofy shorts. And I
go, okay, wear goofy shorts. Be a big lovable teddy bear. Throw
those fake. Glasses away. Take that pocket protector out.
That's just dumb. Let's let the audience behind the curtain and
show them who you are as a person, as long and this is a
huge caveat, as long as you're okay with that, because you're
gonna get stopped at the gas pump and people are gonna go,
are you moose? And you're gonna have to buy in, yeah. So if
you're ready to take that step if you're ready to take your
personal life and make it a brand, and make it part of this
brand where you're never going to get a moment's, you know,
away from it, then let's move forward. And he said, I want to
be one of the most recognizable air personalities in Nashville,
and I don't have a show. And I was like, That is a great goal.
Let's see if we can get that done. And it's pretty close.
Yeah, you know, for a guy who is not doing mornings or mid days
or afternoons, he's as doing all days, you know, he's he's as
visible and as connected as anyone is, I think he has as
many loyal fans, and I see them out on the streets. I'm shocked.
That's probably a big word. I'm amazed. Maybe we'll say that
Jack is a huge brand. It's been here for 20 plus years now. It's
had amazing ratings. We've had, I guess, 54 number one, months,
2554 persons, tunes, sometimes 350, almost 400,000 people,
along with our sister station, mix just has been these dominant
powerhouses for a decade. Mix much longer, when I go out on
the streets and I'm around those brands, and I see the excitement
that you don't get with Pandora, when I see listeners coming up
and talking and interacting with the brands, I expect a positive
experience almost every time, and I expect it to be
substantial. When mix is out there, when Jack is out there,
it's noticeable. I did not expect that with y'all, you
know, I've called it my little baby brand. You know, it's two
and a half years old now, it's not like nobody was doing
country in this market. You know, there were, there were
stations out there, when I'm on the streets, when I'm behind a
table or on a stage, and it's at a y'all event, or we pull up in
the y'all truck, it's the same response, yeah, you know, it's
this overwhelming excitement about the brand. And you know,
it comes 100,000 instead of three or 400,000 you know, its
ratings are not anywhere near what Jack or mixes are, but
there is a very loyal, connected, big time, yes,
audience. My wife is a perfect example. It's amazing, yeah, you
know. And I just got me hooked. People have come to me and said,
Why didn't this happen before? You know, there's this huge,
just amazing amount of music that was so big in the 90s that
people just didn't play, yeah? So, you know, we don't play
anything older. The first thing is a 1980s a 1980 Alabama song.
So we go back to 80. We stop at 2000 512, 1006 song at this
point, that's just such a great time for country radio. And you
know, nothing against our competitors. They were all doing
a very fine job, but they were all sort of doing the same
thing. I mean, I'm friends with some of those guys. I love I
love listening to them. I listen a lot, but they all kind of
sound musically the same. I mean, there's a little
difference between KDF and SM. Now so more, not sure that that
was the right move, but now so more. But we just felt like, you
know, there's this lane that's super underserved, not served,
not even, not even underserved, just not served, that we can put
a jack type brand on, run fairly inexpensively, and be very
successful. And, you know, when we launched, I said, I think I
said this, you know, a few months ago with you, I went on
record saying, we don't have to beat anybody to be successful.
That's that's not the goal. The goal is to be viable and to be
listened to. We need to find our voice and our audience. I'm not
worried about the big three. You know, they're great radio
stations. When we launched, that week, mix was one, Jack was two,
WSM was no, si X was three, KDF was four. I do not remember who
was five and WSM was six. So three of the talks, six radio
stations, 2554, were country. The day we launched, the week we
launched, there has not been, and this is devastatingly bad
for all of us. There has not been a top 10 country radio
station, 2554, persons in the last year. So, and I don't think
it's a music cycle, I think we did just everything's
compressed. I think we did just enough damage. It brought
everybody down, just enough that everybody else snuck in. Front
of them. We are normally the third country radio station. We
always beat at least one. There are times we've beat two. There
are times we've beat all three, like three months. I'm not gonna
hang my hat on that, but we are competitive now. We have found
that lane. We have found our audience. And even though, like
I have, Taylor is kind of the face of that brand. You know,
she's a 30 year old female, she's a songwriter. She's been
connected to the country music industry for 10 years. She's
great with the artists that we have coming in. We have tons of
artists coming in because they're here and they're
accessible. So there's something else that we have that the pure
plays don't have, you know, we have artist interaction coming
in. We you know, we do talking with Taylor on Sundays, and, you
know, every week there's somebody in the studio talking
to us that's got a number one song, you know, and we're
getting to find out what they're doing now, and, you know what's
going on with their life. And sometimes I'm just curious, you
know, if I somebody had one hit, and, you know, 95 I haven't even
kept up with them. It's kind of interesting sometimes to go back
and see where they are, exactly what they're doing. And a lot of
times they're still out on the road. Oh, big time.
Yeah, that's about the only way they can still make a living.
That's the truth?
Yeah, yeah. So, so I, you know, I think we still have it a lot.
I mean, that's like a 10 minute answer to a question. So sorry,
but I think we still have a real lane that our competitors. I
mean, the digital side of it is awesome. You can take your phone
and go listen, and, you know, there's gonna be some music that
you you're gonna discover, but we're still doing that for
people,
I would think that your lane has gotten wider since ws MFM
dropped the whole mash icon.
It has, yeah, I wanted to send somebody a fruit basket.
I know who that is, yeah,
you know. And it's funny, Charlie, you know, is a friend,
and you know, I've known Charlie for a while, and he would say,
we're friends. I would say we're friends when he left the
building. I I always wondered, you have these two huge brands,
why can't you squeeze s i x? Why can't you get on either side and
do real damage, because si X honestly, was probably the
dominant country radio station through a lot of those years,
and I thought they sounded a little bit better. I thought
musically, they were a little bit better. Oh my, by the way,
if the I heart people ever hear this, I apologize. I'm sorry. I
did not mean this. All the I heart people don't want to talk
to anybody. They're not friendly with you. They don't want to, if
you see them in an event or a concert, they they're like, oh,
it's, you
know, the Cubans. People
are very kind and very generous with their time, and they'll
talk to you. And I have relationships with most of them.
And, you know, we're all just one big, happy family. For
whatever reason, the people aren't in our family.
But when was this going?
It was with Charlie, way too honest. Nobody quote me. Is this
on?
So the funny thing was, is, you know, I thought he could do
this, and he didn't do it, and Charlie, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I
just thought he could, he could do more damage. And then when
Travis came in, you know, year or so goes by and I get it. If I
come into a building, I'm not going to make a bunch of changes
in the first year. I need to get the lay of the land. I need to
understand why people are doing things before I, or you did it
the way he did it, right? Well, because maybe you don't know. I
mean, I've seen people rush into decisions and then go, Oh no,
the whole building just fell down because I pulled this out.
That's the guy with the resume. Every year he has a new job
title. Sorry, not supposed to do that. I've known some guys that
do that, so I would not do that. And I think Travis didn't, I
think he didn't do it. But, you know, he took musically is, is,
you know, KDF is a different animal right now, especially
during his show, there's a lot of undiscovered music there, and
he has a very specific, unique idea for what he I've talked to
him about it. Maybe I'm maybe I don't know he has, I believe he
has a very specific idea and direction that he wants that
radio station to go. And he is, you know, Damn the torpedoes,
full speed ahead, and he's getting it there. And if he can
push it over the finish line, and he can accomplish the things
that I think he wants to accomplish. He is going to be
the smartest guy in the Nashville radio industry. If he
doesn't get it there, you're the resume gets another line.
That's the way, that's the way the industry works,
way the business is. What.
Yeah, and I listen, you know, when I hear, you know, I'll hear
an album cut something that the label was probably throwing a
fit about, because he's not playing the single. And, you
know, the first time somebody misses a number one because, you
know, Katie F played the album cut 10 times instead of the
current single. We'll see what kind of pushback there is. I
don't know. I love the the aggressive behavior. I love the
I'm going to think outside the box. I love that I'm going to
willing to roll the dice. I love that I'm going to do something
different and take chances, and I'm going to revitalize this
brand. I love all that
bit of a gamble. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, WSM FM. Now,
since, you know, the Nash icon was dispensed with, I mean, it's
pretty just kind of middle of the road mainstream. Now, you
know, it is,
it is. And, you know, I always thought Big D and Bubba probably
should have been the morning show there instead of KDF,
thought it fit the brand a little bit better.
The way the move happened, I think was a little abrupt.
You know, I'm not disappointed that they're over there. I don't
I haven't talked to them about it specifically, but I think
it's great home for them. You know, the air staff that had
been there traditionally and and had my respect that, you know,
don't work in the building any longer. I felt bad for them, you
know, moving the folks from KDF and kind of clearing the way
over, you know, I think was a little bump in the road. I get
it. Sometimes you have to break the eggs, you know, to make the
omelet. I think that's what he was trying to do. You know, I
really like some of those people that aren't there and thought
they did a fine job. So, you know, it's a business. I
understand that it's, it's a sad part of the business. What I
didn't get about the move and being an armchair quarterback,
and Travis will beat me up the next time he sees me for saying
this. You know, you spent three years building the big D and
Bubba show as a part of KDF. You know, it was on the RDS, it was
in all the promos. It was, you know, it was so much a part of
that brand, purposely. I mean, everything was about Big D and
Bubba in the mornings. And by the way, this is going on on
wkdf. And then overnight they moved them, and they didn't move
them off. They didn't go away. They went to the sister station
down the hall. So in my world, I say, Wow, this is awesome. We've
just had this amazing thing happened. And I run 1000 promos
going, if you love Big D and Bubba, don't worry. They're down
the hall. Here's where you find them. You know, I'm gonna move
that audience. Yeah, yeah. That didn't happen. You know, there
was very little noise on the radio station about where these
folks, yeah, where, where did they go? Where did they go? And
I think that it was one of those things. Those things where I
would have done it differently. I would, you know, I programmed
both these radio stations. I want to see both of them
succeed. And I think the focus really shifted to KDF and the
new future and the goals there. And then we're going to take
these pieces and we're going to, we're going to toss them over
here and let the I should not be having this conversation that's
over my pay grade, and I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm
completely wrong. So I absolutely wasn't in the room,
obviously, but it just feels like, from a listener
standpoint, that the focus became, we are going to get KDF
across the finish line, and it is going to attack si X and
we're going to be the number one country radio station. And I
don't care what happens with everything else and, and from a
programmer who loves radio, that hurts a little bit, yeah, you
know, you're throwing away a big stick again. It's a big that's a
big statement. I don't mean anything by that, other than
outside looking in,
sure. I mean, that's just a competitive analysis.
I have this. I wish I had that stick, if I had that signal for
y'all, wow. I mean, I'd love to have it, you know, we'd love to
buy it and have it in our building. That's just not gonna
happen, you know. And I think it's a little bit of an
afterthought right now, which is sad, because there's some great
people over there. There's been great people over there. There's
some great programming over there. They still make money.
They're still viable.
I just want them to be important too.
Yeah, out of all the music radio that you've programmed, I mean,
is there a format that just really gets your juices going?
Polka? I love polka. Jimmy, stir. Is your guy?
Man, love me. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do. You know, I
country's probably in my blood. You know, I've programmed a.
Bunch of country radio stations. I've launched a handful, three
or four, but adult hits, you know, it's the music that I grew
up with, yeah. And, you know, I graduated high school and 82
that was a 1982 they had numbers back then. And, you know, so
journey and Boston, and, you know, all those, those were the
bands, you know, sure. So we get to still play all those. And I
was fortunate. There was a couple. I heard the very first
Jack launch. I was in Wichita, actually, and I heard the first
Jack launch in the country in Denver, and it was on this
little rim shot stick that didn't have much of a chance. It
sounded awesome. And I don't even remember how I found it.
Started streaming. It started listening to it. So this is
probably oh four, and just fell in love. Went to my company at
that time, was journal, and said, we have this stick that
hasn't been successful. This what we should be doing. Thank
God. They didn't listen to me. They're like, No, we're not
going to do that. So couple years go by, I leave, go to
Kansas City, had an opportunity to come back to Wichita, and
connoisseur media was restarting their company. They had bought
some construction permits, and they said, We're going to do
this adult hits thing. And my first thought went, Oh, they're
going to do jack. So I went in and had the conversation with
them and found out it was going to be a bob and Joel Folger had
been part of that, and I met him back in Wichita, drove in from
Kansas City, and we went to a hotel conference room, and he,
he said, This is what we're doing. This is how this
schedules. This is what it looks like. Couldn't have had a better
teacher at that point because he he was on the ground floor of
adult hits. So I think I spent two or three hours with him, and
he said, Do you want the job? And I said, I think I probably
do. And he goes, Okay, well, this is now your laptop. And I
went, what? And he goes, so here's the key, here's your
laptop. Here's the password. Can you just start scheduling music
tomorrow? And I said, Well, I'm still working in Kansas City.
And he's like, no, no, you got this? Here's the transmitter
site. That's where the computer is. They're building studios.
They'll call you on Monday. And I was just like, I think I
program an adult hits radio station now, and so that's sort
of how I got involved in it. And it's Joel passed away a couple
years ago, and he program, or he consulted a station in Austin
and a station in Pittsburgh, which, if you go back and
research the last 10 years of adult hits radio stations, my
jack and those two Bob's are probably the highest rated three
consistent brands doing adult hits, and his footprint is
definitely on all three of those. So there's a little tip
of the hat that the guy knew what he was doing. There's a
couple other guys that were doing it at that point too, but
Joel really kind of taught me the ropes. So I love adult hits,
but there's something about country I love to first really
big radio station I worked for was K 95 in Tulsa. And you know,
that was when you had a half a million dollar marketing budget.
That's when we had a concert every week at Tulsa city limits,
which is the club that you know, Ronnie Dunn wrote boot scooting
Boogie about. The video was filmed there. I was there. I
mean, that was the heyday of doing country that stuck with
me. So what I when I started, y'all, I actually referred back
to that time, and some of the, some of the print and my LPD
from K 95 called me and said, Oh, I It's amazing that you even
mentioned the brand. And I was like, No, it's just that's who
we're going to be. So that has always been a part of me, even
though I kind of grew up in that rock vein. So I I'm getting the
best of both worlds. I get to relive my, you know, teenage
years doing jack, and I get to relive, you know, my 20s doing
country and, and I'm doing this thing with pickle jar too. I
have a little connection there. And so I'm getting to do new
country as well. So I don't think I could pick three better
formats to play with. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah. Does keep me a
little busy. Nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with that.
So it's fun. All right, there you go.
I just rambled on. God
myself trouble because I've said
things somebody's gonna quote me on now, hey, we all got in
trouble on this one, bud. Remember you signed the release?
You know, I have a crusty the clown doll in my office that has
the string, and you just pull it, and it actually has, I don't
know if anybody seen the episode, but there's one where
there's a flip on a switch on the back that says evil or good.
And if it's evil, it says, you know, like, crusty is going to
kill you. You know, that's and if you and it's like, oh. Crusty
loves you if you put it on good and I don't, I don't know what
it's on right now. I should have checked that. Check my back, but
Travis, I'm sorry.
You know, this is what a very natural and organic feeling
conversation can produce.
That's exactly right. And we do this all the time. We get
ourselves in trouble.
But bad, like, I just completely rambled on the whole time.
So no, you did not okay. It was entertaining and informative,
and we've enjoyed having you on with us.
Well, I appreciate the appreciate your time, and all
these stations
and Jack FM and, of course, y'all, yeah, good. My wife, like
I said, and she's made a convert out of me. Now I now, when I get
in her truck, I tuned to yellow
if you can find about 200,000 more people.
Now, Jay, tell folks where they can find
of course, we always like to point you to the website
circling the drain.net. But again, you can see our lovely
smiling faces. This is a video podcast at our Yes, our social
media, yes, our social media. That would be Facebook. Of
course. Just search circling the drain Nashville on Facebook. You
can also find us on X formerly Twitter. How long do we say
formerly Twitter? Probably forever. And of course, our
YouTube channel like and share radio, does the all new X? Yeah,
they all say that for five years, but yeah, circling the
dream.net, man. We got t shirts, we got hats, we got all kind of
fun stuff. We got even photos of all, yes, the scary photo, yes,
yeah, so we appreciate you checking things out
and check us out next time on circling the drain, you.