WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.660 Michele: Hey, Colleen. 00:00:00.860 --> 00:00:01.520 Colleen: Hey, Michelle. 00:00:02.070 --> 00:00:02.730 Michele: How's it going? 00:00:03.139 --> 00:00:03.620 Colleen: I'm good. 00:00:03.620 --> 00:00:04.280 How are you? 00:00:04.890 --> 00:00:05.490 Michele: I'm good. 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:10.380 I was, uh, listening to a hammer stone pod yesterday, or the day 00:00:10.380 --> 00:00:12.060 before you, guys had a new one out. 00:00:12.690 --> 00:00:17.180 And, it sounds like you are really just pounding the pavement on sales 00:00:17.290 --> 00:00:19.400 now and shifting away from technical. 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:22.660 Colleen: Yeah, it is a huge shift. 00:00:22.660 --> 00:00:25.960 It is a scary shift, but also it's really exciting. 00:00:26.515 --> 00:00:26.965 Michele: Yeah. 00:00:27.225 --> 00:00:29.835 Colleen: More fun than I thought it would be. 00:00:30.381 --> 00:00:31.161 Michele: Ooh. 00:00:31.511 --> 00:00:32.831 Colleen: And so that's interesting. 00:00:32.831 --> 00:00:35.411 Like every time you send a cold DM or a cold email, you get 00:00:35.411 --> 00:00:36.521 a little like dopamine hit. 00:00:37.511 --> 00:00:40.691 Michele: Do you, but like what, so what if they were, they 00:00:40.691 --> 00:00:41.681 don't reply to you like that? 00:00:41.681 --> 00:00:42.161 Doesn't. 00:00:42.271 --> 00:00:42.541 Colleen: Yeah. 00:00:42.541 --> 00:00:44.611 No, most people don't reply, but I don't know. 00:00:44.611 --> 00:00:47.551 It doesn't seem to be, I mean, this is the game, right? 00:00:47.941 --> 00:00:53.796 Like it, and it's a game that I haven't played before, but it's kind of fun. 00:00:53.796 --> 00:00:56.716 I think it's a huge, I mean, it's obviously a new skillset for me, 00:00:57.196 --> 00:01:00.286 but I'm excited to try something new and to learn something new. 00:01:00.791 --> 00:01:07.241 Michele: I'm really excited to see you just like jumping into it head first. 00:01:07.301 --> 00:01:11.116 I feel like, you know, when we met and we started first started doing the podcast, 00:01:11.593 --> 00:01:15.613 before you did anything differently, you used to read a ton of books and articles 00:01:15.613 --> 00:01:18.943 on things, which is a good approach to do. 00:01:18.943 --> 00:01:21.553 And I, you know, we should of course learn from other people, 00:01:21.553 --> 00:01:25.603 but I think sometimes you use that as kind of procrastinating doing 00:01:25.603 --> 00:01:31.168 something new and now you're just in. 00:01:31.168 --> 00:01:34.048 And I haven't heard that same, like, well, I just need to read these more 00:01:34.048 --> 00:01:38.998 articles on this and I have one, I'll do it when I finished this book, I'm reading, 00:01:39.178 --> 00:01:45.148 like you have jumped into cold sales, like it's cold water without any fear. 00:01:45.478 --> 00:01:46.018 Colleen: It's funny. 00:01:46.018 --> 00:01:46.258 Okay. 00:01:46.258 --> 00:01:48.058 So I did do one thing, that's a little funny. 00:01:48.058 --> 00:01:50.908 I don't remember if I said this on Hammerstone podcasts, but I did, you 00:01:50.908 --> 00:01:55.236 know, you can go on YouTube and look up sales, and watch people sell stuff. 00:01:55.506 --> 00:01:56.616 It's fascinating. 00:01:56.706 --> 00:01:58.866 It's so I did do that to get pumped up. 00:01:59.016 --> 00:02:00.036 Cause these guys get on. 00:02:00.066 --> 00:02:02.886 I was watching this one guy and like these guys get on sales 00:02:02.886 --> 00:02:07.176 calls, and the person can be like, yeah, this product's not for me. 00:02:07.716 --> 00:02:08.896 And they're still. 00:02:09.801 --> 00:02:10.881 Like they don't let it go. 00:02:10.911 --> 00:02:11.241 Right. 00:02:11.271 --> 00:02:16.221 They're like, oh, well, you know, dive in as you might say, like, why not? 00:02:16.251 --> 00:02:18.801 Well, maybe you can just buy it now and it'll be for you later. 00:02:19.741 --> 00:02:20.961 It's fascinating to 00:02:21.031 --> 00:02:22.651 Michele: Do you want to be like that though? 00:02:22.881 --> 00:02:23.691 Colleen: I don't. 00:02:23.691 --> 00:02:28.841 But I think that the difference is it's all about like, I think where I struggled, 00:02:29.489 --> 00:02:33.630 doing these customer interviews and doing the cold sales, which are, I know 00:02:33.630 --> 00:02:37.350 they're two different things, but when I say cold sales, I really mean I want 00:02:37.350 --> 00:02:38.700 to talk to people about their problems. 00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:42.799 So I really think of them as like customer interviews is as soon as someone's 00:02:42.799 --> 00:02:44.870 like, yeah, it's just not a good fit. 00:02:44.870 --> 00:02:45.890 I'm like, oh, okay, cool. 00:02:46.040 --> 00:02:46.460 I'm out. 00:02:46.850 --> 00:02:47.210 Right. 00:02:47.210 --> 00:02:49.100 Which is obviously not the right response. 00:02:49.100 --> 00:02:51.980 The right response is to figure out why, why is it not a good fit? 00:02:51.980 --> 00:02:53.180 What's their job to be done. 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:54.320 And so. 00:02:54.975 --> 00:02:56.355 I don't want to be sleazy or slimy. 00:02:56.355 --> 00:02:59.955 That's not what I'm trying to do, but I also tend to just like my 00:02:59.955 --> 00:03:02.625 customer interviews before I met you, or before I started working 00:03:02.625 --> 00:03:04.155 with you were like 30 seconds long. 00:03:04.185 --> 00:03:07.695 I think I told you my early customer interviews for simple file upload were 00:03:07.695 --> 00:03:10.815 literally five minutes long because I did not know what else to say or do. 00:03:11.765 --> 00:03:14.195 Michele: Yeah, I feel you were like, if they said something and you 00:03:14.195 --> 00:03:15.185 understood it, you'd be like okay. 00:03:15.195 --> 00:03:15.645 Colleen: sweet. 00:03:15.855 --> 00:03:16.245 Yeah. 00:03:16.275 --> 00:03:16.755 Michele: Yeah. 00:03:16.845 --> 00:03:21.821 I mean, I think there's definitely a line there between yeah, between like being 00:03:21.911 --> 00:03:27.551 pushy and then, uh, and then also trying to understand, okay, well, is it because 00:03:27.641 --> 00:03:29.621 they don't experience this very often. 00:03:29.671 --> 00:03:32.371 Are they not the person who experiences this problem? 00:03:32.371 --> 00:03:34.981 Is this problem already solved in a satisfactory way? 00:03:34.981 --> 00:03:38.341 Like, cause I think there's a difference between like we already use something for 00:03:38.341 --> 00:03:42.631 this, and we're happy with it versus we don't use anything for this and we don't 00:03:42.631 --> 00:03:48.121 see any reason to and because we do it so infrequently that it's just not a problem. 00:03:48.625 --> 00:03:48.945 Colleen: Yeah. 00:03:49.445 --> 00:03:51.415 So I, what else did I do? 00:03:51.415 --> 00:03:52.765 I did something else. 00:03:53.034 --> 00:03:53.784 I can't remember now. 00:03:53.918 --> 00:03:55.718 Michele: You're doing your founding customers thing. 00:03:55.718 --> 00:03:55.958 Right. 00:03:55.958 --> 00:03:57.488 Which I think is a brilliant idea. 00:03:57.488 --> 00:04:02.888 You have this group of five founding customers that are, they, like, I 00:04:02.888 --> 00:04:07.148 guess they get a special discount, but also more like high touch 00:04:07.208 --> 00:04:09.308 service onboarding from you is that. 00:04:09.748 --> 00:04:10.138 Colleen: Yeah. 00:04:10.138 --> 00:04:14.188 So my customer advisory board, I think I have two slots left if you are 00:04:14.188 --> 00:04:16.468 interested in trying the refined product. 00:04:16.678 --> 00:04:21.628 Um, yeah, so my customer advisory board has been so cool because 00:04:21.658 --> 00:04:23.398 these people have already paid. 00:04:23.878 --> 00:04:25.018 They're excited. 00:04:25.378 --> 00:04:27.478 They're the ideal first customers. 00:04:27.538 --> 00:04:31.648 And so far, they're all rails developers and they've been like, Hey, like I am 00:04:31.678 --> 00:04:36.678 open to helping you, around these rough edges as we integrated it in our app. 00:04:36.708 --> 00:04:39.768 So there, you know, I just think it's going to be so fun working with these 00:04:39.768 --> 00:04:43.128 guys because we're going to work together like super high touch, right? 00:04:43.128 --> 00:04:44.728 I want to be there for the whole process. 00:04:45.098 --> 00:04:48.008 Show them exactly how to do it and kind of see how that feels to them. 00:04:48.511 --> 00:04:49.921 So yeah, I'm pumped about that. 00:04:50.421 --> 00:04:53.301 Michele: Did you get your, your real estate customers in that you mentioned 00:04:53.301 --> 00:04:57.711 them like your one freelancing client that you had, that it sounded like 00:04:57.711 --> 00:04:59.601 they actually had a need for it. 00:04:59.661 --> 00:05:02.091 Were you able to get them into the founding customer? 00:05:02.641 --> 00:05:06.271 Colleen: Um, yeah, I mean, I haven't yet, but I will because they're my clients. 00:05:06.301 --> 00:05:06.991 So they need 00:05:07.086 --> 00:05:08.676 Michele: So there's one slot left 00:05:08.761 --> 00:05:09.631 Colleen: Yeah, I guess you're right. 00:05:09.661 --> 00:05:09.781 I 00:05:09.996 --> 00:05:14.226 Michele: So if you want, or you maybe want at some point in the future, you 00:05:14.226 --> 00:05:16.536 think you might want refined for rails. 00:05:17.136 --> 00:05:18.756 You should talk to Colleen now. 00:05:18.841 --> 00:05:23.281 Colleen: Yes, we will help you filter your data for your users and for your team. 00:05:23.311 --> 00:05:24.181 It's wonderful. 00:05:24.661 --> 00:05:26.011 It's so cool to Michelle. 00:05:26.011 --> 00:05:29.311 I think one of the things as I get more and more into this, I'm just having so 00:05:29.311 --> 00:05:31.524 much fun with it now, which is cool. 00:05:31.524 --> 00:05:35.184 Like the sales, and the product is just so good. 00:05:36.104 --> 00:05:41.744 I mean, it's like, you know, the rails, um, the rails architecture 00:05:41.744 --> 00:05:46.214 is designed almost exactly based off of what Aaron did for Laravel. 00:05:46.484 --> 00:05:49.844 And like he thought of everything, like all of these weird edge 00:05:49.844 --> 00:05:52.664 cases that we've taken care of. 00:05:52.664 --> 00:05:55.574 So it's so beautiful when you start to use it. 00:05:55.844 --> 00:05:58.504 And someone's like, well, what about NOLs? 00:05:58.504 --> 00:06:00.124 And I'm like, oh, we totally handled those. 00:06:00.124 --> 00:06:03.424 Just like these little edge cases that trip people up, that annoy people. 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:07.879 I dunno, it just makes me happy to like work on software, I feel really good 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.549 about and can see our client using. 00:06:10.549 --> 00:06:12.890 I mean, our client uses this everywhere in their app. 00:06:12.890 --> 00:06:13.999 It is so cool. 00:06:14.659 --> 00:06:16.609 And like, it's just, it's just cool. 00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:17.210 I don't know. 00:06:17.239 --> 00:06:18.890 I was just happy about it, I guess. 00:06:19.544 --> 00:06:23.714 Michele: It's such a delight to work on a product that you're really proud of. 00:06:23.714 --> 00:06:27.104 But also with this one, you have ownership of the product, right? 00:06:27.104 --> 00:06:30.710 And so when someone says, Hey, this is really cool. 00:06:30.809 --> 00:06:33.299 First of all, you're like, wow, they think something I made is cool. 00:06:33.299 --> 00:06:34.439 That's kind of cool. 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:35.309 That's like motivating. 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:36.849 But then, can you do this? 00:06:37.239 --> 00:06:40.569 And you can be like, oh, you know what, no, we're actually thinking of adding 00:06:40.569 --> 00:06:43.169 that, and you can be like, hey like, can you tell me, why you would need that? 00:06:43.229 --> 00:06:45.719 And then you can talk to them about it and be like, yeah, maybe 00:06:45.719 --> 00:06:46.439 we can add that in the future. 00:06:47.264 --> 00:06:47.834 Knowing. 00:06:47.834 --> 00:06:50.774 Yeah, maybe we can actually add that in the future. 00:06:50.774 --> 00:06:54.314 And you're not just saying maybe if the product manager approves it and 00:06:54.314 --> 00:06:57.314 then we get executive approval and then the roadmap is already locked 00:06:57.314 --> 00:06:59.294 in for at least 18 months right now. 00:06:59.294 --> 00:07:03.284 Like, oh, I'm going to tell them that we can do it, but we probably can't, 00:07:03.364 --> 00:07:08.044 that's kind of a crappy feeling, but getting to not only get that super 00:07:08.044 --> 00:07:11.284 positive feedback yourself and really feel like you're selling something that 00:07:11.284 --> 00:07:13.765 you're proud of, but also having the. 00:07:14.589 --> 00:07:18.219 You know, influence and control over the future of the product. 00:07:18.219 --> 00:07:22.306 And you know, I think it allows you to just really connect with your 00:07:22.306 --> 00:07:26.926 customers on what they're trying to do in a way that is a lot harder when you 00:07:26.926 --> 00:07:28.866 don't have that say over the roadmap. 00:07:29.868 --> 00:07:30.168 Colleen: Yeah. 00:07:30.168 --> 00:07:33.678 So it's, you know, as I said, I think I said to Aaron, like, it's exciting. 00:07:33.678 --> 00:07:36.558 I mean, I'm pulling back on the technical stuff, which is scary 00:07:36.638 --> 00:07:36.968 Michele: Yeah. 00:07:37.523 --> 00:07:39.323 Colleen: well, and also like, that's how I make my money. 00:07:39.353 --> 00:07:42.143 So, I mean, it's going to be like less personal income. 00:07:42.533 --> 00:07:43.313 Um, so 00:07:43.533 --> 00:07:47.193 Michele: Oh, so is this like, this is reducing your, because you have it cause 00:07:47.193 --> 00:07:54.156 you've been working for the clients that was funding you guys to build it and now. 00:07:54.186 --> 00:07:57.996 But, so what does that actually, what was it a one-year contract 00:07:57.996 --> 00:08:01.496 or was it like a certain number of hours that works out to a year? 00:08:01.506 --> 00:08:01.956 So like, 00:08:02.406 --> 00:08:05.676 Colleen: So the contract was really whatever we needed. 00:08:05.736 --> 00:08:07.446 I mean, it was, it was incredibly flexible. 00:08:07.446 --> 00:08:11.676 We had agreed because I quit my other job for this opportunity. 00:08:11.676 --> 00:08:15.443 I had wanted a minimum commitment of a year, which they gave 00:08:15.443 --> 00:08:17.453 me, but there's no end date. 00:08:17.513 --> 00:08:19.013 So, you 00:08:19.273 --> 00:08:21.253 Michele: Okay, So you don't actually fall off a 00:08:21.453 --> 00:08:24.303 Colleen: I don't fall off a cliff, but what we're doing, what we talked about. 00:08:25.053 --> 00:08:30.633 Is there hiring someone to be me within their company. 00:08:30.903 --> 00:08:31.743 Does that make sense? 00:08:32.223 --> 00:08:34.243 So they're like, want me to train him up? 00:08:34.273 --> 00:08:35.593 He's going to start in a couple of weeks. 00:08:35.623 --> 00:08:39.420 And so as I trained him up, so now I have a contractor, like hammer 00:08:39.420 --> 00:08:43.830 stone refine has a contractor that's working upstream on technical stuff. 00:08:44.130 --> 00:08:47.760 And then the client is actually hiring someone, they want me to train up, 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:51.885 to take some of the app load, like of the load of putting it everywhere 00:08:51.885 --> 00:08:54.465 in their app and understanding it and explaining it to everyone. 00:08:54.465 --> 00:08:57.135 Like take some of the app load off of me. 00:08:57.555 --> 00:08:59.505 And this is exactly what I want to happen, Michelle. 00:08:59.535 --> 00:09:04.665 This is the ideal path for me, but it's also scary because when I was 00:09:04.665 --> 00:09:07.995 the person who was like touching every part of the app as like some 00:09:07.995 --> 00:09:12.705 serious job security, like that's some serious consulting revenue security. 00:09:12.705 --> 00:09:18.248 And as I give these pieces away, that is going to significantly impact my personal 00:09:18.248 --> 00:09:22.598 income, um, which is something we have planned for and which was always the plan. 00:09:22.598 --> 00:09:25.478 But you know, you get there and you're like, okay, 00:09:26.273 --> 00:09:26.663 Michele: Let's go to. 00:09:27.578 --> 00:09:28.358 Colleen: This is it. 00:09:28.358 --> 00:09:29.498 This is the time. 00:09:30.018 --> 00:09:32.808 So it's exciting and scary and fun. 00:09:32.898 --> 00:09:36.798 And you know, if I don't bet on myself, like, what am I doing here? 00:09:37.128 --> 00:09:37.488 Right. 00:09:37.488 --> 00:09:38.508 This is what I want. 00:09:38.968 --> 00:09:39.718 But it is a little. 00:09:40.370 --> 00:09:43.610 Michele: I think it's really interesting to see also how excited you are about 00:09:43.610 --> 00:09:49.460 doing sales for this versus how marketing for simple file upload kinda always 00:09:49.460 --> 00:09:51.530 seemed like a little bit of a drag to you. 00:09:51.530 --> 00:09:53.150 Like it was always a bit of like, I don't know what to do. 00:09:53.790 --> 00:09:58.050 Let's do this content, you just have this excitement about selling 00:09:58.050 --> 00:10:02.900 this that I feel like I didn't ever fully see with simple file upload. 00:10:02.900 --> 00:10:05.180 And I don't know if that's difference between the products or 00:10:05.180 --> 00:10:08.870 that's the difference between for you like sales versus marketing. 00:10:08.870 --> 00:10:12.590 Like some people genuinely enjoy one over the other, even though they are 00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:14.450 often thought of as the same category. 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:15.170 They're really not. 00:10:15.890 --> 00:10:17.540 Uh, I'm curious how you think about. 00:10:18.335 --> 00:10:22.505 Like if you've thought about your own energy levels for the two products. 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:22.990 Colleen: Yeah. 00:10:22.990 --> 00:10:28.690 So I think so, I feel like I'm finally getting to my unfair advantage and 00:10:28.690 --> 00:10:34.693 what I mean by that is like, I am a developer, a good developer who loves 00:10:34.693 --> 00:10:36.583 people and I'm good with people. 00:10:36.643 --> 00:10:40.033 And so I think the sales stuff feels different than the marketing stuff, 00:10:40.033 --> 00:10:42.073 because the sales stuff is right now. 00:10:42.073 --> 00:10:44.203 It's just all one-on-one and I freaking love. 00:10:44.953 --> 00:10:48.583 I love talking and maybe sales isn't the right word, maybe like it's more of 00:10:48.583 --> 00:10:50.533 a customer interview where, you know. 00:10:50.763 --> 00:10:51.063 Michele: Yeah. 00:10:51.093 --> 00:10:52.873 I mean, it feels like you're kind of doing like a combination. 00:10:52.893 --> 00:10:57.033 It's sort of like sales, exploration interviews, rather like, it's not quite 00:10:57.033 --> 00:11:00.993 a full customer interview, but it's also not like, as you said, you know, pitching. 00:11:01.413 --> 00:11:01.923 Colleen: Yeah. 00:11:03.063 --> 00:11:03.453 And so. 00:11:04.133 --> 00:11:08.903 I think it, whereas like marketing, like writing blog posts, man, that's a drag. 00:11:09.663 --> 00:11:14.253 It's not content pieces are not my favorite, but I just really like taught 00:11:14.283 --> 00:11:17.913 it, and I think the thing I like talking to people about so much with hammer stone 00:11:17.913 --> 00:11:19.323 is the people who have this problem. 00:11:20.358 --> 00:11:21.318 Big problem. 00:11:21.368 --> 00:11:24.668 It is incredibly painful for them is what I'm finding. 00:11:24.668 --> 00:11:26.888 Just a tremendous annoyance. 00:11:27.248 --> 00:11:28.268 So I don't know. 00:11:28.268 --> 00:11:30.788 It just feels cool to be like, we can solve that for you. 00:11:30.788 --> 00:11:31.928 We can make your life better. 00:11:31.928 --> 00:11:33.338 Like this should be a no brainer. 00:11:33.835 --> 00:11:35.455 I'm enjoying that process. 00:11:35.956 --> 00:11:38.086 Michele: I'm really glad to see you enjoying it. 00:11:39.091 --> 00:11:43.381 I think that really is the big difference between sales and marketing. 00:11:43.381 --> 00:11:47.671 And if you enjoy talking to people, which, I mean, I guess we run a 00:11:47.671 --> 00:11:50.851 podcast, so we shouldn't be entirely surprised that you enjoy talking to me. 00:11:53.101 --> 00:11:55.131 Um, then run with that. 00:11:55.131 --> 00:12:00.041 I mean, and you know, to be a developer who genuinely likes people, and talking 00:12:00.041 --> 00:12:05.485 to them as much, You do writing code and being able to speak to that in a 00:12:05.485 --> 00:12:08.521 very technical way, is really unusual. 00:12:08.628 --> 00:12:12.759 The other nexus, I see this a lot in is people who do developer relations, and 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:17.169 so to be, you know, to be a salesperson who can really speak to the technical 00:12:17.169 --> 00:12:23.659 aspects of things and understand, why you would use something is so valuable. 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:24.719 I'm actually, you know, I'm reminded. 00:12:24.719 --> 00:12:28.659 So yesterday we were looking at, appliances, uh, very exciting. 00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:32.079 And, you know, we went to two different showrooms yesterday and one was for a 00:12:32.079 --> 00:12:37.329 company that makes supposedly incredibly nice, you know, very high-end appliances. 00:12:37.359 --> 00:12:39.339 And we want to just see like, okay, what's the best thing 00:12:39.339 --> 00:12:40.479 out there just for comparison. 00:12:41.079 --> 00:12:44.229 And then we went to another one that was more, very good quality, 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:46.869 more like mid range and not. 00:12:47.844 --> 00:12:50.364 Like nobody, like would be impressed when they walked into your house 00:12:50.364 --> 00:12:52.674 if they saw it, versus this other one was very impressive. 00:12:53.294 --> 00:12:56.614 And I noticed immediately, you know, the first one, the salesperson 00:12:56.614 --> 00:13:00.874 talked about how, you know, all these, a Michelin star chef uses them. 00:13:00.874 --> 00:13:03.634 And like, you know, it was very exclusive and everything. 00:13:03.634 --> 00:13:04.084 And then. 00:13:04.984 --> 00:13:08.074 The other one, even though it wasn't as nice, they're saying, well, you know, 00:13:08.074 --> 00:13:11.404 when you're making your potatoes and you need to do this and you're working with 00:13:11.404 --> 00:13:12.964 it, like in your kitchen, just like this. 00:13:12.964 --> 00:13:15.694 And like, or you're trying to make this other dish and, like, you want 00:13:15.694 --> 00:13:17.434 them to be a specific brownness. 00:13:17.434 --> 00:13:20.854 And like, the level of in this case cooking, but like the technical 00:13:20.854 --> 00:13:24.514 understanding of here's when you're using this, here's what you're trying to do. 00:13:24.514 --> 00:13:28.504 Like the rest of that activity that you have going on here's why this 00:13:28.504 --> 00:13:33.149 product helps you and speaks to the things that people are trying to do. 00:13:33.652 --> 00:13:38.332 It helps you sell it in a way where you don't have to be like, you should 00:13:38.332 --> 00:13:39.802 buy it now because it's going on sale. 00:13:39.802 --> 00:13:41.842 And then it's going to go, the price is going to go up and like, even if 00:13:41.842 --> 00:13:42.712 you don't need it, you should buy it. 00:13:42.712 --> 00:13:42.982 Now. 00:13:43.032 --> 00:13:45.372 You can be like, well, if you're trying to do this, you might 00:13:45.372 --> 00:13:46.782 struggle with doing X, Y, and Z. 00:13:46.782 --> 00:13:48.432 And here's how this product helps you do that. 00:13:48.432 --> 00:13:53.532 And it's more like just factually explaining what the product does 00:13:54.032 --> 00:13:55.412 and you don't have to put on the. 00:13:56.317 --> 00:13:56.767 Colleen: Right. 00:13:57.442 --> 00:13:59.002 Michele: And it's a more pleasant experience. 00:13:59.002 --> 00:14:00.682 I think for everybody. 00:14:01.087 --> 00:14:01.417 Colleen: Right. 00:14:01.417 --> 00:14:02.647 That, and that's where I am right now. 00:14:02.647 --> 00:14:04.177 I'm not trying to hard sell anyone. 00:14:04.237 --> 00:14:07.737 I'm like, we, you know, we speak to your problem. 00:14:07.867 --> 00:14:09.997 This is what it does, and this is why it's gonna make your life. 00:14:10.646 --> 00:14:13.226 Michele: And I think that's what you learn, you know, if you got to a point 00:14:13.226 --> 00:14:17.486 where you can do like straight customer interviews or even as you do more of 00:14:17.486 --> 00:14:21.476 these sort of S we'll call them sales, exploration interviews, like the more you 00:14:21.476 --> 00:14:27.406 can speak to those specific situations in a company where somebody would have this 00:14:27.406 --> 00:14:31.722 problem, the more, when you talk to more people, there'll be like, oh, they really 00:14:31.722 --> 00:14:36.716 get it without, you know, without having to do too much more explaining, right? 00:14:36.716 --> 00:14:38.936 You don't have to be like, so have you, have you ever 00:14:38.936 --> 00:14:40.406 struggled with this and this? 00:14:40.406 --> 00:14:41.096 You can be like, no. 00:14:41.096 --> 00:14:44.336 So when you are trying to do this, we help you do that faster. 00:14:44.481 --> 00:14:44.811 Colleen: Yeah. 00:14:45.311 --> 00:14:45.821 Yeah. 00:14:46.151 --> 00:14:50.921 So it's been, you know, it's a paradigm shift in terms of what I'm doing. 00:14:50.981 --> 00:14:53.231 Um, and I think what's different about it too is simple file 00:14:53.231 --> 00:14:57.861 upload, simple file upload, it was like kind of a small product. 00:14:57.861 --> 00:15:02.631 Like people just want to use it and it's fine, but this is a higher priced 00:15:02.631 --> 00:15:05.091 product, like a higher touch product. 00:15:05.361 --> 00:15:12.541 So these conversations feel much more, um, what's the right word, like, uh, interest. 00:15:12.551 --> 00:15:15.221 I don't wanna say interesting, but they feel much more, they have 00:15:15.221 --> 00:15:16.511 much more depth to them, right. 00:15:16.511 --> 00:15:18.191 Because the problem is multifaceted. 00:15:18.491 --> 00:15:21.551 Everyone experienced this problem in a slightly different way. 00:15:22.011 --> 00:15:24.651 And people generally have identified the problem. 00:15:24.981 --> 00:15:29.211 And so I feel like I'm getting more out of these talks than I was 00:15:29.211 --> 00:15:32.331 when I was trying to do talks for people with simple file upload. 00:15:32.834 --> 00:15:33.224 Yeah. 00:15:33.284 --> 00:15:33.764 So there's that. 00:15:34.267 --> 00:15:36.907 Michele: So we talked about how you didn't read a bunch of books and blog 00:15:36.907 --> 00:15:41.587 posts before starting to do this, but I'm betting that you read some too, like 00:15:41.587 --> 00:15:45.337 you have this, this founding customers concept, you're cold dM-ing people. 00:15:45.337 --> 00:15:49.574 I'm curious, where have you been getting these ideas from, what are you looking 00:15:49.574 --> 00:15:53.354 to to like help you learn how to sell? 00:15:53.414 --> 00:15:54.824 Colleen: Gosh, you're going to love this so much. 00:15:55.154 --> 00:16:00.704 So yeah, so, you know, uh, Ben and Derrick's podcast, the art of. 00:16:01.554 --> 00:16:02.184 Michele: Yes. 00:16:02.254 --> 00:16:08.194 Colleen: On episode 205, but if you go back to episode 38, that's 00:16:08.194 --> 00:16:10.984 when Derek has starting levels and Ben is starting Tuple pull. 00:16:11.487 --> 00:16:11.607 Michele: Oh. 00:16:11.997 --> 00:16:15.027 Colleen: So I am, lee it's like three years ago, it's like 2017 or 00:16:15.027 --> 00:16:16.047 something, or maybe more than that. 00:16:16.047 --> 00:16:16.587 I don't remember. 00:16:16.947 --> 00:16:19.857 So basically I've realized that. 00:16:19.887 --> 00:16:24.087 So I'm listening to the artist product podcast from episode 40 and 00:16:24.117 --> 00:16:25.617 it's right when Tuple is starting. 00:16:25.617 --> 00:16:30.547 And I got this founding customers concept, because Ben was talking about doing that 00:16:30.547 --> 00:16:35.167 in the very, before Tuple was a thing like before it was a thing, he was taking 00:16:35.167 --> 00:16:38.047 like a small group of founding customers. 00:16:38.047 --> 00:16:39.367 And I was like, dude, I should do that. 00:16:40.167 --> 00:16:40.737 Michele: And that's interest. 00:16:41.157 --> 00:16:41.637 Colleen: yeah. 00:16:42.027 --> 00:16:47.031 So between that, and then, just trying to be like talking to when Corey was 00:16:47.031 --> 00:16:48.801 on Cory Haines was on software social. 00:16:48.801 --> 00:16:52.824 He was on a while ago, but we were joking about how, he, and I 00:16:52.824 --> 00:16:57.144 first met cause he called DMD me and how he does that all the time. 00:16:57.264 --> 00:16:59.004 And he was like, you just got to shoot your shot. 00:16:59.004 --> 00:17:00.684 And I was like, yeah, why am I not doing that? 00:17:00.864 --> 00:17:02.724 Like that seems silly. 00:17:02.724 --> 00:17:08.124 And then at rails conf I met, a new friend and his name is Joe and he has rails devs. 00:17:08.394 --> 00:17:13.644 And he was talking about his sales strategy, which was to 00:17:13.674 --> 00:17:15.774 personalize, like cold outreach. 00:17:15.804 --> 00:17:18.354 And I was like, that makes total sense, like personalized cold outreach. 00:17:19.419 --> 00:17:20.259 Perfect sense. 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:25.059 So that's kind of what I'm trying to do right now, as I contact more people. 00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:26.679 Like you clearly need this thing. 00:17:26.709 --> 00:17:27.939 I mean, you say it nicer than that. 00:17:27.969 --> 00:17:30.039 We have the thing we can make your lives better. 00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:31.469 Michele: That's really interesting. 00:17:31.469 --> 00:17:34.289 So instead of reading about those, basically you are 00:17:35.652 --> 00:17:39.162 We know you're listening to other people that, you know, talk about doing this, or 00:17:39.162 --> 00:17:41.232 you are talking to them directly about it. 00:17:41.892 --> 00:17:48.289 And I wonder if that makes it feel more, doable because there's that sort of 00:17:48.289 --> 00:17:52.159 social proof element of like, if I know somebody who has done this and has done it 00:17:52.159 --> 00:17:55.069 successfully, then maybe I can do it too. 00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:56.166 Like, does 00:17:56.166 --> 00:17:56.496 that make 00:17:56.801 --> 00:17:57.101 Colleen: Yeah. 00:17:57.131 --> 00:17:59.081 It's and it's not so nebulous, right. 00:17:59.081 --> 00:18:02.741 When you read about like, you know, Paul Graham's blog or whoever, 00:18:02.741 --> 00:18:06.774 someone, you know, in a totally different stage of life, it's 00:18:06.774 --> 00:18:09.384 hard to relate that to yourself. 00:18:09.414 --> 00:18:10.074 You know what I mean? 00:18:10.524 --> 00:18:13.704 Michele: Yeah, it doesn't feel quite as actionable because they have a different 00:18:13.704 --> 00:18:18.234 set of incentives and resources at play that you maybe don't have, but listening 00:18:18.234 --> 00:18:24.794 to art, a product, or, you know, Cory Haynes on and Chris on default alive, 00:18:24.824 --> 00:18:29.161 like, that could, you know, they're in somewhat similar situations and, 00:18:29.551 --> 00:18:29.941 Colleen: Yeah. 00:18:29.971 --> 00:18:33.811 And I have to say like Nathan's, Barry's tweet is my most favorited tweet. 00:18:33.841 --> 00:18:37.261 The one, um, I know I bring this up all the time, so stop me if I told you, but 00:18:37.261 --> 00:18:41.401 the one where he talks about how convert kit got stuck at 1500 MRR for like a year. 00:18:41.731 --> 00:18:45.661 And then he started doing direct sales and we all know where it is now. 00:18:45.871 --> 00:18:49.051 So, um, it's like this great tweet thread about how like, 00:18:49.554 --> 00:18:50.934 he was just totally stagnant. 00:18:50.934 --> 00:18:54.774 And then he started changing the game by like, he would like literally fly places 00:18:54.954 --> 00:19:01.234 to meet with people, but how that just fundamentally shifted his whole business. 00:19:01.732 --> 00:19:02.752 Michele: We'll have to link to that. 00:19:02.872 --> 00:19:04.912 Um, I think you, I think you have mentioned that. 00:19:05.147 --> 00:19:06.857 Colleen: sure I have, because I read it every day. 00:19:07.037 --> 00:19:07.307 Okay. 00:19:07.502 --> 00:19:09.782 Michele: And, and like, I mean, who better to look to then someone 00:19:09.782 --> 00:19:13.292 who literally runs a company called convert kit about how other people 00:19:13.292 --> 00:19:15.032 can convert people to things, right. 00:19:15.032 --> 00:19:19.892 Like, Yeah, probably knows a little bit about what he's talking about. 00:19:20.582 --> 00:19:24.662 Uh, so episode 38 onwards of art, of broadcast, art of 00:19:25.112 --> 00:19:26.792 pop out of product podcasts. 00:19:26.822 --> 00:19:27.872 Just stop listening to us. 00:19:27.902 --> 00:19:28.982 Just go listen to that. 00:19:30.542 --> 00:19:32.972 Colleen: oh, it's really funny because it's like, they're talking 00:19:32.972 --> 00:19:34.412 about like their Twitter strategy. 00:19:34.412 --> 00:19:37.147 And again, I think, three or four years old. 00:19:37.387 --> 00:19:39.787 And I was like, oh, Derek's talking about his Twitter strategy. 00:19:39.787 --> 00:19:42.307 And I like was scrolling through his tweets to try and find it. 00:19:42.307 --> 00:19:43.897 And I'm like, oh no, I'm never going to find it. 00:19:43.897 --> 00:19:45.157 Cause it was like four years ago. 00:19:45.157 --> 00:19:47.047 Like I've no idea what he's talking about. 00:19:49.157 --> 00:19:52.517 But yeah, you know, I think things feel really good, Michelle, I think. 00:19:52.517 --> 00:19:55.977 And also, my sister is, getting into some simple file upload 00:19:55.977 --> 00:19:57.237 stuff, which is really cool. 00:19:57.657 --> 00:20:00.847 And so it feels, it feels like a. 00:20:01.672 --> 00:20:07.552 A lot of excitement and promise and fun, you know, it's like I was reading this 00:20:07.612 --> 00:20:12.706 blog post or article, or I don't know the other day about, the arrival fallacy. 00:20:13.036 --> 00:20:16.006 And it's this concept that when you hit a certain thing, you're going to be. 00:20:17.071 --> 00:20:17.371 Michele: Mm. 00:20:17.601 --> 00:20:21.081 Colleen: when I hit a million ARR, I will be happy when I buy 00:20:21.081 --> 00:20:22.641 this house, I will be happy. 00:20:23.137 --> 00:20:26.287 And it's this whole concept of like, it actually has this great interview 00:20:26.287 --> 00:20:31.237 linked of some famous basketball player who won a championship 00:20:31.747 --> 00:20:33.477 and was depressed afterwards. 00:20:33.477 --> 00:20:35.992 Cause he was like, but I'm still the same person. 00:20:35.992 --> 00:20:38.452 Like I thought everything would change, cause I've been striving 00:20:38.452 --> 00:20:39.712 for this goal, my whole life. 00:20:40.282 --> 00:20:43.642 And now I want a championship and I'm still the same person 00:20:43.642 --> 00:20:45.052 and nothing has really changed. 00:20:45.952 --> 00:20:51.599 And, um, I was thinking about that a lot about how, yes, it feels like it will 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:56.139 be so great when Aaron and I are on our feet alone supporting our families. 00:20:56.169 --> 00:20:59.339 But also you don't want to fall into that arrival fallacy. 00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:00.719 Like we'll still be the same people. 00:21:01.574 --> 00:21:06.014 And it's just so important to like, appreciate and enjoy this 00:21:06.014 --> 00:21:07.904 part of building the business. 00:21:08.897 --> 00:21:11.147 And I do so that's cool. 00:21:11.894 --> 00:21:15.419 Michele: Yeah, I think it's important to, be enjoying it right now. 00:21:15.449 --> 00:21:18.959 And I mean, I know you, like, you've been working a lot, you've been 00:21:18.959 --> 00:21:24.509 working nights and weekends trying to be stuff out before lacrosse practice, 00:21:24.589 --> 00:21:26.539 which you knew used to not do. 00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:30.792 Like you used to have really good, strong boundaries around when you 00:21:30.792 --> 00:21:36.206 worked and you have purposely removed those boundaries and you're working a 00:21:36.206 --> 00:21:40.624 lot, but I feel like, I mean, I get the sense that you feel like it's worth it. 00:21:40.624 --> 00:21:43.634 And that you're enjoying the journey to build it. 00:21:43.634 --> 00:21:47.024 And then, yeah, it's frustrating, but doesn't really feel, you know, 00:21:47.474 --> 00:21:52.224 like a slog and it's, not just the end goal as the great philosopher 00:21:52.254 --> 00:21:54.774 Miley Cyrus says, it's the climb. 00:21:56.609 --> 00:21:57.449 Colleen: Oh, my goodness. 00:21:58.919 --> 00:21:59.459 Wow. 00:21:59.549 --> 00:22:00.159 Uh you're right. 00:22:00.159 --> 00:22:03.369 I have removed those work-life boundaries that I used to have 00:22:03.369 --> 00:22:04.569 that you were so impressed with. 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:07.539 Um, but it's working for us right now. 00:22:07.569 --> 00:22:10.569 So as long as it continues to work for us, we'll just keep on, keep on in. 00:22:11.318 --> 00:22:15.068 Michele: So your goal is selling five licenses a month. 00:22:15.098 --> 00:22:15.668 Is that right? 00:22:16.268 --> 00:22:17.288 I keep getting this wrong. 00:22:17.443 --> 00:22:17.743 Colleen: No. 00:22:17.803 --> 00:22:21.193 I mean, you know, I think, I think this goes back to like, 00:22:21.193 --> 00:22:22.943 our goal is to keep, selling. 00:22:23.273 --> 00:22:23.573 Right. 00:22:23.573 --> 00:22:26.303 I can't necessarily control whether someone converts or not. 00:22:26.303 --> 00:22:30.953 So, you know, those kinds of metrics, I don't think are super valuable because you 00:22:30.953 --> 00:22:35.813 attach so much emotion to them, whereas it's like, so our goal is to be doing 00:22:36.316 --> 00:22:38.536 four to five calls a week right now. 00:22:38.536 --> 00:22:39.706 Michele: Because that's something you can 00:22:39.941 --> 00:22:41.111 Colleen: Cause that's something we can control. 00:22:42.071 --> 00:22:47.111 And so, and also, you know, I think of all these people, like you, uh, 00:22:47.141 --> 00:22:51.245 I had Nadia who has story graph on, you know, Nathan Barry's tweet. 00:22:51.485 --> 00:22:55.025 They talked to customers for a long time until they got it just right. 00:22:55.385 --> 00:22:59.375 So I think there's, I distinctly remember Nadia saying, like she did like six 00:22:59.375 --> 00:23:01.535 months of intensive customer interviews. 00:23:02.075 --> 00:23:04.715 And so I think it's just important to remember that. 00:23:05.570 --> 00:23:05.960 The key. 00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:10.130 I think for us, the key to success is talking to our customers. 00:23:10.260 --> 00:23:11.520 That's how we're going to move the needle. 00:23:11.550 --> 00:23:12.660 That's how we're going to change the game. 00:23:13.161 --> 00:23:15.591 Michele: I think it's also not just talking to them, but also 00:23:15.711 --> 00:23:17.361 iterating as you go through that. 00:23:17.361 --> 00:23:22.231 Like, I saw like Matt wincing of someone who's also on this show last 00:23:22.231 --> 00:23:26.131 fall was saying how, you know, they've gone through three versions of their 00:23:26.131 --> 00:23:29.641 product, over the last, I don't know, like two or three, two or three years. 00:23:29.641 --> 00:23:29.911 Right? 00:23:29.911 --> 00:23:30.121 Like. 00:23:31.136 --> 00:23:34.196 Time, but they keep doing it and they, and I think keep doing it 00:23:34.196 --> 00:23:36.146 because you keep enjoying it. 00:23:36.146 --> 00:23:40.616 You keep still being hungry for solving what people are trying to do 00:23:41.156 --> 00:23:42.836 and you keep iterating through it. 00:23:42.836 --> 00:23:46.593 It's not a time of sort of, you know, just researching, Right. 00:23:46.593 --> 00:23:48.583 You're researching, you're exploring you're tinkering. 00:23:48.583 --> 00:23:48.993 You're saying, okay. 00:23:49.713 --> 00:23:50.673 People are buying this. 00:23:50.673 --> 00:23:53.733 We've got some people buying this amount, but if we do this differently, like, 00:23:53.733 --> 00:23:58.293 okay, maybe we got a little bit more like, and you're selling as you go as well. 00:23:58.293 --> 00:24:02.930 You're not waiting sell it it feels perfect. 00:24:03.275 --> 00:24:03.875 Colleen: Exactly. 00:24:03.875 --> 00:24:06.305 And I think that's the key is we're selling as we go and 00:24:06.305 --> 00:24:07.085 we iterate on the product. 00:24:07.590 --> 00:24:11.550 Michele: So next week then for you is four to five calls. 00:24:12.300 --> 00:24:14.280 It's actually, it sounds like you really enjoy it. 00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:17.850 Cause I think you said on the hammer stone podcast, that your goal is one a 00:24:17.850 --> 00:24:19.620 week and now the goal is four to five 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:19.910 Colleen: Yeah. 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:24.803 Now that you repeat that back to me, did it four to five a week is a lot, maybe. 00:24:25.053 --> 00:24:26.613 Michele: Oh no, no, no, keep it keep it. 00:24:26.613 --> 00:24:28.293 You told me I had to be on 20 podcasts. 00:24:28.323 --> 00:24:31.143 I said I would be on like five and you were like 20 and I was like, 00:24:31.193 --> 00:24:31.943 Colleen: four to five? 00:24:31.973 --> 00:24:32.183 It 00:24:32.253 --> 00:24:34.203 Michele: So now you have to have five next week. 00:24:34.203 --> 00:24:34.593 I'm sorry. 00:24:34.673 --> 00:24:36.053 Colleen: to say four to five a month. 00:24:36.556 --> 00:24:38.686 Michele: Oh, well, you actually said four to five weeks. 00:24:38.686 --> 00:24:39.196 Sorry. 00:24:39.196 --> 00:24:40.366 It's been recorded. 00:24:40.396 --> 00:24:41.536 It's out there now. 00:24:41.536 --> 00:24:42.826 You can't take it back 00:24:44.296 --> 00:24:46.876 Colleen: I mean, right now we're at one a week. 00:24:46.936 --> 00:24:47.326 Maybe we 00:24:47.436 --> 00:24:48.036 Michele: hashtag. 00:24:48.036 --> 00:24:48.876 Sorry, not sorry. 00:24:48.876 --> 00:24:49.596 You have to do five. 00:24:50.746 --> 00:24:51.406 Colleen: Jeez. 00:24:52.906 --> 00:24:53.386 Oh. 00:24:53.586 --> 00:24:54.396 Michele: you enjoy it. 00:24:54.561 --> 00:24:55.161 Colleen: I do. 00:24:55.161 --> 00:24:57.951 I mean, honestly, the hardest part is freaking scheduling 00:24:57.951 --> 00:24:59.841 with time-zones and everyone 00:24:59.996 --> 00:25:02.096 Michele: Well, I'm the one who complains about time zones. 00:25:02.096 --> 00:25:03.956 Like, what is it? 00:25:04.131 --> 00:25:04.491 Colleen: for you. 00:25:05.095 --> 00:25:05.665 Michele: No, it does. 00:25:05.665 --> 00:25:06.355 It does suck though. 00:25:06.355 --> 00:25:09.145 Especially like, if you're trying to talk to people, I guess though, you're talking 00:25:09.145 --> 00:25:10.435 to people all over the world, right? 00:25:10.435 --> 00:25:10.825 Like 00:25:11.815 --> 00:25:14.275 Our customers are all us and Canada. 00:25:14.775 --> 00:25:15.075 Colleen: Yeah. 00:25:15.075 --> 00:25:17.461 We're all over the world right now, but no. 00:25:18.401 --> 00:25:18.701 No. 00:25:18.731 --> 00:25:19.091 Okay. 00:25:19.121 --> 00:25:22.361 I meant to say four to five a month, but maybe I can do more than one a week. 00:25:22.571 --> 00:25:24.551 Michele: But you said four to five a week. 00:25:24.581 --> 00:25:26.771 and I feel like four to five a week. 00:25:26.771 --> 00:25:27.011 Is that. 00:25:28.166 --> 00:25:31.016 I mean, it sounds like you're, you're like hustling here. 00:25:31.016 --> 00:25:34.106 I feel like you're not, not to use that word that I know is complicated 00:25:34.106 --> 00:25:35.426 and loaded, but like you are, 00:25:36.416 --> 00:25:37.466 you are going at it. 00:25:37.591 --> 00:25:38.911 Colleen: I don't want to be a golden Retriever. 00:25:38.911 --> 00:25:40.261 I want to be a pit bull, Michelle. 00:25:41.016 --> 00:25:44.346 Michele: Whew, I don't, I don't think you're, I don't think you're a pit bull. 00:25:44.516 --> 00:25:49.033 Colleen: Okay, can I be, uh, okay, let me iterate on that, but 00:25:49.073 --> 00:25:52.523 Michele: Like a Greyhound, like, do you want to go fast or. 00:25:53.293 --> 00:25:58.290 Like maybe like a Greyhound golden retriever mix 00:25:58.640 --> 00:25:58.970 Colleen: No. 00:25:58.970 --> 00:26:00.530 You're I don't know. 00:26:00.800 --> 00:26:01.550 Ah, no, you're right. 00:26:01.550 --> 00:26:01.910 I'm hustling. 00:26:02.090 --> 00:26:03.800 Hustling is I believe the right word. 00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:07.880 Cause that's how I want to think about this is like I'm hustling on this. 00:26:07.910 --> 00:26:08.660 We're doing this. 00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:11.013 Michele: Also pit bulls, I don't think they can run very fast. 00:26:11.013 --> 00:26:15.593 Don't they have the same like congestion issues that like other 00:26:15.593 --> 00:26:19.523 bulldogs have no there's like some dogs that are like born with nose issues 00:26:19.523 --> 00:26:20.783 and they can't breathe very well. 00:26:20.783 --> 00:26:23.453 And there's some dog owners out there who are probably telling me 00:26:23.453 --> 00:26:26.413 this, but like, they're not, they're known for being very strong, but 00:26:26.413 --> 00:26:28.360 not being very particularly fast. 00:26:28.913 --> 00:26:32.353 Colleen: Um, so I like this speaking of inspirational things, watch. 00:26:32.783 --> 00:26:33.533 Michele: spirit animal. 00:26:33.533 --> 00:26:33.623 is 00:26:33.638 --> 00:26:35.768 Colleen: Um, yeah, we're changing the spirit animal. 00:26:36.248 --> 00:26:36.518 Yeah. 00:26:36.518 --> 00:26:38.408 So there's this YouTube video I love. 00:26:38.468 --> 00:26:43.948 And it's Michael, someone from Y Combinator talking about what makes a 00:26:43.948 --> 00:26:46.881 good founder and it's like four minutes. 00:26:46.881 --> 00:26:48.261 We'll add it in the show notes too. 00:26:48.321 --> 00:26:48.861 I love it. 00:26:49.358 --> 00:26:51.308 But I think he uses the term relentless. 00:26:51.608 --> 00:26:52.538 That's a good term. 00:26:53.053 --> 00:26:54.493 Michele: Um, and resilient. 00:26:55.128 --> 00:26:55.518 Colleen: Yeah. 00:26:55.518 --> 00:26:55.728 Yeah. 00:26:55.728 --> 00:26:56.208 But that's like 00:26:56.208 --> 00:26:56.538 such an 00:26:56.723 --> 00:26:57.053 Michele: like 00:26:57.683 --> 00:26:58.073 Yeah. 00:26:58.103 --> 00:27:00.743 but no, but I think resilience is important because you're sending all of 00:27:00.743 --> 00:27:04.523 these DMS and you said you're getting the dopamine hit from sending out the message. 00:27:04.853 --> 00:27:08.063 And you're not like scrolling through your Dems being like, they didn't reply to. 00:27:08.063 --> 00:27:08.183 me. 00:27:08.183 --> 00:27:08.993 They didn't reply to me. 00:27:08.993 --> 00:27:11.663 Like that's, that's resilience. 00:27:11.663 --> 00:27:12.023 Right. 00:27:12.053 --> 00:27:15.113 Or being like, I mean, it's normal to like, feel something 00:27:15.113 --> 00:27:16.913 when you don't get a reply back. 00:27:16.913 --> 00:27:17.093 Right. 00:27:17.093 --> 00:27:18.473 I think that's totally understandable. 00:27:18.473 --> 00:27:21.608 And you don't have to like, tell yourself not to feel something, 00:27:21.608 --> 00:27:23.168 cause you care, about this product. 00:27:23.168 --> 00:27:25.808 you care about this product getting to be your full-time job. 00:27:26.311 --> 00:27:28.171 But yeah, just keep going. 00:27:28.421 --> 00:27:30.761 Be a relentless golden retriever. 00:27:30.791 --> 00:27:32.801 Just fetch that ball Coleen. 00:27:34.426 --> 00:27:36.826 Colleen: Yes, it's amazing. 00:27:37.873 --> 00:27:38.353 Okay. 00:27:38.857 --> 00:27:39.217 Huge. 00:27:39.217 --> 00:27:41.887 Thanks to all of our listeners, who've become software 00:27:41.887 --> 00:27:43.477 socialites and support our show. 00:27:43.777 --> 00:27:47.947 You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year at software 00:27:47.947 --> 00:27:53.527 social dot dev backslash supporters, Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome 00:27:53.527 --> 00:27:57.997 Kevin Griffin, and Mike from gently used domains, who has a nice personality. 00:27:58.347 --> 00:28:00.297 Michele: He actually asked me to insert that. 00:28:01.837 --> 00:28:06.097 Colleen: Dave, from recut, max of online or not, Stefan from talk to Stefan, 00:28:06.847 --> 00:28:11.137 Brendan Andrade of bright bits, Aaron from Tuple, Alex Hillman from 00:28:11.137 --> 00:28:16.267 the tiny MBA, Ramy from memo.fm, Jane and Benedikt from user list. 00:28:16.477 --> 00:28:20.497 Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamez of sign well, Corey Haynes of swipe 00:28:20.497 --> 00:28:24.937 well, Mike Wade of crowd sentry, Nate Ritter of room steals, and 00:28:24.937 --> 00:28:26.437 anna maste of subscribed sense, 00:28:26.707 --> 00:28:27.697 Geoff Roberts from outseta, 00:28:28.347 --> 00:28:32.967 Justin Jackson, MegaMaker, Jack Ellis and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, 00:28:33.207 --> 00:28:38.727 Matthew from appointment reminder, Andrew Culver at bullet train, John Koster, Alex 00:28:38.727 --> 00:28:43.857 of Corso systems, Richard from stunning, Josh, the annoyingly pragmatic founder, 00:28:44.277 --> 00:28:49.557 Ben from consent kit, John from credo and editor ninja, cam Sloan, Michael 00:28:49.557 --> 00:28:55.137 Koper of nusii proposals, Chris from URL box, Caeli of Tosslet, Greg park from traitlab, 00:28:56.057 --> 00:28:59.477 Adam from rails autoscale, Lana and Alex from recapsy, 00:28:59.477 --> 00:29:02.117 Joe Masilotti of railsdev.com, 00:29:02.447 --> 00:29:04.607 Proud mama from Oplenet, LLC, 00:29:05.057 --> 00:29:08.387 Anna from Kradl, Moncef from Ruby on Mac, 00:29:08.884 --> 00:29:11.884 Arvid Kahl, James Sowers from castaway.fm, 00:29:12.244 --> 00:29:13.894 Nathan of develop your UX, 00:29:14.074 --> 00:29:19.744 Jessica Malnik, Damian Moore of audio audit podcast checker, Eldon from nodle 00:29:19.744 --> 00:29:22.534 studios, Mitchell Davis from recruit kit. 00:29:23.032 --> 00:29:24.112 Michele: And that was amazing. 00:29:25.132 --> 00:29:27.652 People like keep supporting us, which is awesome. 00:29:28.312 --> 00:29:31.342 Well, I guess that's gonna, wrap us up for today. 00:29:31.492 --> 00:29:34.552 I am off to conferences next week? 00:29:34.552 --> 00:29:35.242 So I guess the next. 00:29:36.177 --> 00:29:36.897 Colleen: Yay. 00:29:37.102 --> 00:29:40.732 Michele: I can tell you about how the workshop, and talks go. 00:29:41.332 --> 00:29:45.022 Um, and I look forward to hearing about your four to 00:29:45.022 --> 00:29:48.502 five, uh, sales calls per week. 00:29:48.853 --> 00:29:49.783 Colleen: Okay, bye. 00:29:49.783 --> 00:29:50.143 Bye. 00:29:51.848 --> 00:29:52.748 Michele: Stop talking to me. 00:29:53.703 --> 00:29:54.693 Colleen: It's not making me do 00:29:54.758 --> 00:29:56.438 Michele: Don't make me do more sales calls. 00:29:57.818 --> 00:29:58.178 Okay. 00:29:58.538 --> 00:29:58.718 Bye.