{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "0.0", "endTime": "12.32", "body": "Posted on Hacker News. Nothing. I was like, you know, two weeks in, and I was like, maybe nobody wants this. And so I was about ready to shut it down. And then when this first user came through and actually paid, there's like a $200 payment." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "12.32", "endTime": "17.224998", "body": "Once that first paid user came through after two weeks, the next one came through in, like, a couple days." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "17.225", "endTime": "37.51", "body": "Today's guest is Joel from Browserless. In this episode, Joel shares how a long GitHub thread with an unsatisfactory answer led him to create Browserless, a start up that, eight years later, is doing some amazing stuff, is completely profitable, and completely bootstrapped. And now that agents are using browsers, it's just growing more than ever. Enjoy the episode." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "37.67", "endTime": "57.795", "body": "To me, that's when magic happens. It's like, I'm doing something new. I kind of know a little bit about what's going on around me, but not enough to there's like all these expectations. And so, like, improvisation is a big one when you're improvising. It's like you have like a a rough grid, if you will, or a rough set of rule and guidelines, but then magic can happen." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "57.795", "endTime": "86.049995", "body": "Like like, I've seen just like some of my most memorable moments have been performing and just having something change in a way nobody really planned for, but everybody was kind of like on the same page, and it was just I don't Different people describe it different ways. It's a drug, to be honest. At the end of the day, it really is just a drug. But it really does feel like you're you're floating off the ground as a band, as a unit, or whatever. And every musician I've ever talked to that has experienced that, like, we're always chasing that feeling." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "86.45", "endTime": "115.990005", "body": "But if it's too, like, too rehearsed, you know, too drilled down, this is what we're doing, we'll have ten seconds. Like, there's bands I played in where they, like, had a metronome in your ear, and there's a voice narrating what's coming next, and it is like airtight, you cannot miss something. And those are fine. That's just a different kind of performance, but when there's no you know, it's like he got two hours, do whatever he wants, like, oh, yes, great. I can we can breathe a little bit, we can go in interesting directions and not be so confined into what needs to happen." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "115.990005", "endTime": "134.02501", "body": "So I found that kinda translated into speaking in interviews. If if I know too much, then it gets too too, you know, produced, too, you know, manicured, and, you know, you don't get the fun kinda hot takes or whatever that come out of it. So I I like it. It it keeps me on my toes." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "134.905", "endTime": "151.58002", "body": "Yeah. And we're gonna get to a browser automation in a second. But do you wanna tell us a little bit about, like, the music side? Because I I think you must be the first I'm gonna say you're the first DevTools founder that I've spoken to who was previously a musician." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "152.46", "endTime": "154.62001", "body": "Really? That actually kinda surprises me." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "155.97499", "endTime": "156.61499", "body": "K. Well" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "156.69499", "endTime": "176.09001", "body": "How about challenging you on it? I'm like, that does I I guess, maybe it's part of a byproduct of where I grew up. So, I mean, I'm in, like, Portland, Oregon. Portland, Oregon, you know, is on the Northern End of Oregon, close to the border of Washington state. I actually live in Washington state and then commute you know, was commuting into Portland, but it's a really artsy city." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "176.09001", "endTime": "201.92", "body": "Right? Like, a lot of music, pretty good food scene, you know, a lot of outdoor stuff. And so you get a lot of, like, this I don't wanna say hippie, but there's, know, a bit of like a hippie community, art community, which is so awesome because those people are some of the most passionate people I ever met about, you know, whatever it is they're into. So always wanted to do music when I was younger. It was like one of the first times I remember feeling, you know, getting good at something." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "201.92", "endTime": "216.425", "body": "I was actually tone deaf. I couldn't pick a pitch out. I couldn't match pitch. I couldn't do a lot of things. But I put time into it, you know, part of it was my mom forcing me to practice, but also, like, once I started getting good at it, I was like, oh, you know, self confidence issues I had a lot when middle school." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "216.425", "endTime": "245.755", "body": "And so this was, like, one of the first things I remember feeling good at and feeling like I could do something with. And those kind of things translated, you know, much later in, you know, software and whatnot, but it was so nice to just, like, work on something and get a result and, like, see the end result and be good about it. And so I did that for, you know, a number of years. It just kept progressing and kinda had this mentality of, like, well, let's see how far I can go. I I don't know if where the limit is, I'm just gonna keep going and keep going until something tells me to stop, which there was a little bit of that." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "247.83499", "endTime": "272.595", "body": "But, yeah, so but there's just so many themes too that I can see in music that translate so much into programming. Like in programming, there's, you know, like rules and things that you need to do and should do and be aware of, like there is in music, there's kind of like a unwritten set of rules. But then there's things where it's like a gray area. It's like, oh, you could do this. It's not great, but maybe you could in the right setting, you know, those kinds of things." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "272.835", "endTime": "293.405", "body": "Almost like, you know, improvising. It's like, hey, improvising. Here's a scale or a grid you need to stay in, and but you could color outside the lines if you're good at it, you know, and are doing something fun with it. And programming has a lot of those same things in my mind. It's like, it was really fun to come into programming just because there wasn't a well paved path on everything." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "293.405", "endTime": "322.325", "body": "You kinda had to figure things out a little bit, you know, it wasn't especially in Node. Js and NPM. Also, kind of the caveat that it kinda sucks is like there's not like a standard way to do x y and z, you kinda have to figure things out. AI is kind of like narrowing down down more I think, but anyways, I loved her for that. It was very similar to music, and it's like if I put my time in and learn something, but then I also learn these little cool things on the side that I can combine together to make, you know, a new more interesting thing that is the sum greater than the sum of its parts." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "322.325", "endTime": "331.76498", "body": "So but yeah. Still play music a lot. It's fun to have something like tactically to hold and like get, you know, results immediately. So still always come back to it for that reason. But yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "332.28", "endTime": "335.0", "body": "Wasn't trained as a software engineer, to say the least." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "335.0", "endTime": "340.12", "body": "Yeah. What quickly, what kind of music were you playing, did you come to land on?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "340.12", "endTime": "367.57", "body": "Mostly jazz. There was a pretty good jazz scene in Portland. It did float around a little bit. There was a, what was it like Western Nigerian dance band called Jujuba, and it it the the best way I can describe it is it's like James Brown, but with a lot of other percussive instruments. But we play in like sweaty dive bar basements, you know, people up till two in the morning, just grungy, you know, living it up, having a good it was always a blast." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "367.57", "endTime": "386.03", "body": "It doesn't matter what was going on. It was always something I looked forward to just because it just fun to, like, go out there and, you know, let it all out and see people having a good time. The worst the worst shows are when people are just, like, standing there looking at you and not doing anything or not absorbing anything. It's like, well, crap. Like, this is a waste of time." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "386.03", "endTime": "399.625", "body": "I don't feel like I'm doing anything meaningful. But anyways, that band always had great great dancing, you know, people were having fun. So, yeah, a lot of late nights down there doing that. But mostly jazz, a little bit of, like, blues and rock and stuff. I'm obviously trumpet player." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "400.185", "endTime": "404.105", "body": "So whatever you could fit a trumpet into, I I would do it effectively." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "404.505", "endTime": "418.97", "body": "Okay. Nice. That's so cool. That's so cool. And then so now, you're doing browser automation and you bootstrapped part sort of partnered with Polychrome who've been on the show before." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "420.09", "endTime": "430.095", "body": "She wanna tell us a little bit about what you're doing and the kind of stage you're at now. And then I'd love to kind of dig in to kind of then go back and how how how it how you got there." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "430.735", "endTime": "437.615", "body": "Connect the dots? Yeah. Yeah. So I I run Browserless. It's a company founded about eight years ago, a little over eight years ago." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "438.655", "endTime": "479.63998", "body": "And it kind of fit to some of those patterns I was mentioning with music earlier where, you know, there's things that I love to do automate, you know, in a way, but there's just times where, like, a web browser had to come into that equation to automate it successfully or to do something successfully. And you you kind of get the sentiment among engineers that it's like, well, only do this if you absolutely have to. Like, it's it's kind of a perilous problem, you know, to solve something with browser automation. It's just frail, it breaks all the time, pages change, you know, and even with those things aside, it's just the nature of the web is constantly evolving. What worked yesterday won't work today all the time." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "480.28", "endTime": "491.035", "body": "And so I just kinda liked it because it was always challenging. There was always something to come back to and, like, figure out. It was never, like, a solved problem. It was always kind of this ongoing journey. And, you know, to me music had a lot of same things." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "491.035", "endTime": "523.485", "body": "Like, you're always improving in music. You're always trying to do something different or get into a new thing, and browser automation has a lot of those traits in my mind. But, yeah, and then, you know, so started it eight years ago, but when I started it, didn't really didn't really know what I was getting myself into, to be honest. It was a beer money project, you know, weekend beer money kind of thing just to like, oh, it'd fun to have something that, you know, just kind of generates a little income on the side. I had no idea it would have grown to this level into, you know, this size, and even purely bootstrapped is just kind of blows my mind." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "524.365", "endTime": "553.325", "body": "But I think it just speaks to the need that, you know, if there is something that you're kinda passionate about and wanna make it better, the idea doesn't even have to be great. You know, you just kinda have to keep trying and keeping that thing alive for long enough. I can't remember who said it, but there was like a pretty famous quote that it's like, pretty much any business will succeed if you give it enough time. Like, if you give it anything ten years, at some point, you're gonna just randomly hit product market fit, you know, with except for pagers. Probably the pager industry, that'll never happen again." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "553.325", "endTime": "589.50995", "body": "But, you know, within a certain within a certain realm, like, you're gonna hit a point in the economy where that business or idea has merit and you'll get traction, but you just got it to be there at the right time. And sometimes you can time that out and sometimes you can't. And so Anyways, this is old to say like, I'd just been around long enough that, you know, eventually caught enough traction and then it grew and grew, and I wasn't, you know, trying to grow unsustainably like VC businesses do, and so I could just sit with it when it was slow year, it was a slow year. I didn't have to, you know, take over the whole market the next day. But yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "589.50995", "endTime": "612.45", "body": "So now, especially, like, with, you know, agent browsing, AI models, all these other, like, things that are happening in the AI space, you know, we play a pretty I won't say significant, but like a pretty good role in that, and so it's obviously another boom for us. But again, you know, if if you weren't there at the right time and place, it it wouldn't have happened. So, yeah, I've been running it for eight years. It's been great. Hired people." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "612.45", "endTime": "623.73004", "body": "You know, done a lot of things I didn't wasn't expecting to do, but very happy for it. Happy with the team. Team has performed really well. It I don't know. Can't say enough nice things about that, but, yeah, it's still fun." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "623.73004", "endTime": "629.91504", "body": "I still enjoy it. I still wake up, you know, raring to go on it and, you know, tackle crazy things and see what crazy things people are" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "629.91504", "endTime": "642.36", "body": "up to with the web. So yeah. That's cool. That's cool. So how how did you get your first customer if you like kinda go back to like when it was just like beer money?" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "642.44", "endTime": "645.16", "body": "What were your I mean, what was the first beer money, I guess, is" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "646.92", "endTime": "659.805", "body": "Yeah. This is such a great thing about bootstrap companies is like a lot of times your first paid user, you go right into the black, You know? It's a lot of money, but it's not burning money. So that's kind of a good thing. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "659.805", "endTime": "662.445", "body": "The first customer I had paid me 200 a month." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "663.245", "endTime": "664.045", "body": "Oh, that's great." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "665.08496", "endTime": "695.455", "body": "It was pretty pretty reasonable. I think my infrastructure costs now or at that time were, like, in the 50 to $100 range a month. The and this is another good thing about bootstrap companies is, like, you know, you make really, really focused decisions on, like, how much infrastructure to build, what to buy, you know, because if you're funding it yourself, those dollars really hurt, you know. It's not somebody else's money you're spending, it's your money you're spending. And so you become really, really, really diligent about where and what that goes to." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "695.775", "endTime": "717.54504", "body": "So I was very cognizant of that when I was getting started. Was like, I I can't be hemorrhaging my own money. Like, I will bleed myself dry. But the first user actually came about in GitHub issues. I was building something totally different, wanted to use Puppeteer for that project, and I was having just a dog of a time trying to get it to run-in a VPS, you know, server environment." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "718.025", "endTime": "736.49005", "body": "And so was reading up GitHub issues on it, right, like as one does, just like how how do I get this thing running on Ubuntu or whatever? And and then, you know, eventually realize if I sort by most commented on puppeteer issues, like, that was the number one issue. It was, like, running this in Ubuntu. And below it was, like, running Red Hat. And below it was, like, how do I get this in Docker?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "736.49005", "endTime": "754.715", "body": "And was like, wow. There seems to be a common thread here of I can't get this to run. I was like, maybe this is when I pivot, like, into, like, solving this problem, right, like infrastructure problems with it. And so shockingly enough, I did that and found the first user there because, you know, everybody's asking how do I get this to work? How do I get this to work?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "755.13", "endTime": "775.695", "body": "And, like, that's a really good signal. Right? If you're thinking about starting a business, if you are at the point or if you're at the part of the journey where you can see people, like, asking for something and maybe, like, reading between the lines a little bit, right, like these people were trying to get it to run Ubuntu. They weren't asking for a hosted service. But if there was a hosted service, maybe they would just rather use that instead." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "777.375", "endTime": "789.89", "body": "So pivoted into that and, yeah, I think within couple weeks, had my first paid user and was in the black. And I was like, yeah, I think this I think this might work out. We'll see. Wow. I have somebody pay me money already." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "789.89", "endTime": "790.05", "body": "So" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "790.93", "endTime": "797.96497", "body": "Wow. And so they they came because you you commented on the GitHub ish on that issue saying, like, I've solved it or something." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "799.08496", "endTime": "827.715", "body": "I I try to be this is where you kinda get into the rule bending part of it a little bit. Right? Like, if you're on a community, you don't wanna just be shamelessly self promoting all the time. So, you know, abide by the terms of conditions and whatever of the page, but like, I would tell them, you know, like, yeah, here's here's what I had to do to get it to work. I had to get these packages installed to these versions, you know, I had to create this user and run it as this user, and just kinda like spilled everything out." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "827.795", "endTime": "842.85", "body": "I may have even given like the first Docker file on that issue too, if I remember right. Just like, here it is. Here's how you do it. And that was like man, two or three weeks of just constantly building a Dockerfile, it failed. Building a Dockerfile, it failed." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "842.85", "endTime": "866.21", "body": "It just trial and error hundreds of times to get that to work. So I was giving them, I don't know, weeks of my time to to be honest for free, just say like, hey, this is how it works. And I'm like, and it's probably gonna change at some point, you know, a new Chrome binary comes out, guess what? There's another package it'll need, and these packages aren't well, like, you know, defined when you install Chrome. It's not gonna go out of way and tell you when you boot Chrome, it'll say, hey, guess what?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "866.21", "endTime": "870.93005", "body": "You're missing this package. Why don't you have it? And then you have to go back and add it. Try it again. Go back and add it and try again." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "871.09", "endTime": "893.825", "body": "So I was like, you know, if you don't wanna deal with this, like, I'm thinking about this all the time right now, so go go use this service browser list just to see if, you know, it it has any value for you. And then I think the actual first user, like, emailed me. He's like, hey, I wanna I wanna do that, but I wanna do it a lot. I wanna run, like, a thousand of these at a time. So can can you support that?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "894.22504", "endTime": "921.995", "body": "I was like, ah, that's man, that's a pretty that's a good strong signal. And they're like, they wanna run that much right out of the gate. So yeah. Tried the best to, you know, get that all set up and running, but, know, learned tons of lessons on what to do and what not to do when it comes to, like, scaling that, you know, Chrome as a service because usually people are like, oh, let's get one big machine, and it'll run, I don't know, 20 at a time, 30 at a time, but turns out that's not the case. Like, you want a lot of little machines that do it well." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "921.995", "endTime": "934.48", "body": "So, yeah, a lot of sleepless nights figuring it out, you know, from that point. But, you know, having having a paid user really just adds a lot of, you know, a big morale boost and motivation to keep going, you know." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "934.72", "endTime": "946.52496", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. And was that so once you got the first one, was it kind of just carry on building? Like, how are you were people just talking about it?" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "946.52496", "endTime": "950.365", "body": "Or, like, was it all still coming from that same issue? Or, like, how" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "951.005", "endTime": "972.99506", "body": "Yeah. So that first user was kinda, like, broke the seal. It's funny how, like, it took about a week, week and a half, you know, two weeks, and I was like, nobody signed up since I've launched, like, maybe this didn't have you know, I posted on Hacker News, nothing. Just no traction whatsoever. I was like, you know, two weeks in and I was like, maybe nobody wants this." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "972.99506", "endTime": "985.94", "body": "I built the wrong thing. And so I was about ready to shut it down, and then when this first user came through and actually paid, and I saw it in Stripe, it was like a $200 payment. I was like, yes. Yes. We got but then once, I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "985.94", "endTime": "1005.955", "body": "So it's it's I don't know if it's coincidence, the the the world aligning for you or what, but, like, once that first paid user came through after two weeks, the next one came through in, like, a couple days. Not as big of a plan, but, like, you know, like, once it happens, I don't know why that is. Getting if it's just like the universe has to, like, see it happen once and they're like, okay. We can let you do that. We can let you do that." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1005.955", "endTime": "1035.9551", "body": "And then, you know, a few more start showing up. But then, you know, it started building up, and I was, you know, doing a lot to try to scale this business and figuring out how to architect it and everything so that it would work for people when they signed up. And I started keeping notes about everything I was doing. And then probably about six months to a year in, I finally, like, got all my notes out, wrote a really, like, informative post, threw it on Hacker News, and it went to the front page. And it stayed at, like, the number one position for for a long time." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1035.9551", "endTime": "1062.7151", "body": "And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, maybe there is a lot more to this than I'm giving a credit, like, you know, having, like, an open and honest take on what I was doing seemed to really resonate well with the community. Mhmm. And I was telling him everything that I was doing that was working and was not working. And, you know, to this day, think it's probably still, like, one of our top performing blog posts to be honest just because, you know, it had pretty good insight and it was early on, you know, for that technology." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1062.7151", "endTime": "1113.825", "body": "So there was a little bit of that as well. And then it just, you know, learned a lot from that. Like, anything that you do, I say this all the time, but like any stream of work that you're going to commit to doing, try to get like two or three outcomes out of it. So like if you're going to fix a bug, obviously fix the bug, but then you know take that fix or the lesson that you learned from it and write a blog post, you know, because you kind of get we'll get more out of it than just fixing a bug or, you know, do a video or just something, you know, to, like, really squeeze every ounce of juice you can where possible because especially for a bootstrap company, small company, you have to, like, leverage everything you can to kinda cut through the noise. So, yeah, anyways, that was a really good important lesson in, like, keeping notes on what you're doing, talking about what you're doing, and that way you kinda get another benefit from doing the thing." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1113.825", "endTime": "1139.3999", "body": "So, yeah, that was a big one. And then just over time, it kind of grew and grew. We, you know, laughed at their COVID, laughed at their competitors coming online, and, you know, nothing ever set us back detrimentally. I think in the eight year journey, we've only had maybe one month or two where, you know, revenue either stalled or I think there's only been one month where it went down a little bit, and then subsequent months, it just kept going back up. So, yeah, just keeping at it for sure is is a big one." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1139.88", "endTime": "1144.615", "body": "So cool. Yeah. That's amazing. How big is the team now?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1145.655", "endTime": "1188.75", "body": "So we're still just 10. Nice. The the process or the the thought there is I always wanna keep it a smaller team, kind of like a flat, small flat team, people that are just really good about what they're doing. We kinda don't hire less than senior roles you can think of in like engineering, partially because we're remote, but you know, part of me just thinks like, you know, I'd rather, like, give people something to do and work on, and then you kinda get out of their way, you know, let them take that on how they want to, you know. Even some of our tickets are kinda, like, broad and, like, well, this thing sucks over here, and, you know, you could think about it in these ways, or maybe look at these other strategies, but it's kinda kinda up to you to, like, figure out what the best solution is for that." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1188.75", "endTime": "1216.88", "body": "Being that we're like an engineering company and we sell to engineers, I think getting good engineers to think about API design and, you know, DevX, DevErgonomics, really important. And the people that do really well at that are gonna love this job because you can do that all the time, you know, and think deeply about an API design and, you know, implement it over a couple days, a week. So, yeah. About 10 in head count, very very nimble team. We all wear a lot of hats." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1216.88", "endTime": "1220.64", "body": "We do a lot of different things. But that's the nature of the beast. So, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1220.64", "endTime": "1226.495", "body": "Yeah. That's cool. And is how many people are engineers would you say of the 10 like, primarily?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1226.495", "endTime": "1253.505", "body": "So about half right now. It depends if you count me on that equation. With AI to this, like yeah. I think I tip it over to, like, 50% or more, but we kinda have this it's not really a culture or mantra, but everybody in the company is, like, kind of a contributor. Everybody's a contributor, especially with, you know, Claude and other models, like, barrier to, like, fix a little bug is so easy now." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1253.505", "endTime": "1266.2251", "body": "Like, we have a sales guy that, you know, will update docs, which are, you know, in a docs repo and an MD file, but he knows how to do that, you know, to fix something that he notices. And he's very good at, like, hey, this code doesn't work. We need to fix that because people are using it." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1267.02", "endTime": "1267.5801", "body": "That's cool." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1267.5801", "endTime": "1287.8849", "body": "He even writes like SQL queries for Stripe Sigma. So, yeah, it's just it's an insane productivity boost. And if you can kinda get people over that initial hurdle of like, I don't know if I should use this or how to use it, it's pretty crazy. But, yeah, about half of the team is like pure engineering, but we all, you know, can do it a little bit to a degree. So yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1288.765", "endTime": "1296.3201", "body": "It's cool. Where do you find people that like a sales guy that can, you know, actually write SQL and stuff. It's" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1297.76", "endTime": "1316.825", "body": "Yeah. I think, you know, we always look for traits of, you know, some technical background. Doesn't have to be as an engineer, but, you know, has been involved in, a dev startup or DevTools startup or, you know, runs analytics stuff for themselves on the side. Like, you just want good nerds. I think it's the easiest way to say it." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1317.145", "endTime": "1344.265", "body": "Just people that like it doesn't have to be about code. Right? Like, if you're building robots in the woods, you know, as of a lead of marketing, like, awesome. Like, the fact that you can go through and, like, understand how complicated robots are, like, that sort of obsession will translate well into this space just because very similar thing. You know, you kinda have to know a little bit about motors and actuators and whatnot to get a robot to work." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1344.265", "endTime": "1355.47", "body": "Right? But and it's the same thing with browser automation. You kinda have to, like, have a little bit understanding of how it works to get the most success out of it. So sorry. Our marketing guy doesn't actually run robots in the woods." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1355.47", "endTime": "1355.87", "body": "So" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1356.67", "endTime": "1358.11", "body": "This guy sounds awesome." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1358.51", "endTime": "1360.91", "body": "Yeah. This is a hypothetical person. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1360.91", "endTime": "1370.475", "body": "For a second, for you were saying that you need to know how motors and actuators work for damn. What kind of browser automation are you doing over?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1370.715", "endTime": "1376.875", "body": "That's that's great. Yeah. Mean, I build lightsabers in the woods. So that's about the closest you can get. Actually, I'm not sure if you can see it." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1376.875", "endTime": "1378.3151", "body": "It's up in there. But, yeah, like" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1378.475", "endTime": "1379.435", "body": "You build a lightsaber?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1379.515", "endTime": "1383.23", "body": "Love hardware. Yeah. So it's not" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1383.23", "endTime": "1384.99", "body": "sure got that. Phone will let me. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1385.23", "endTime": "1389.71", "body": "Yeah. Maybe I'll maybe I'll try and grab it in minute. The headphones will let me. But, yeah," }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1389.71", "endTime": "1390.27", "body": "like Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1390.27", "endTime": "1407.21", "body": "Three d printed the parts, you know, did the NeoPixel LEDs, open there's an open source board, which is super cool, and like flashed it, did all the sound files, the clash, got smooth swing. Again, big nerdy thing. Right? So, yeah. Having that is like, anyways, that's what we look for." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1407.21", "endTime": "1412.49", "body": "We we look for guys like that. Okay. Building lightsabers out in the woods. Yeah. You gotta build your own lightsaber." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1412.49", "endTime": "1412.89", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1412.89", "endTime": "1420.01", "body": "You didn't do the videos as well though, because I've seen people turn up to like conventions with like real lightsabers. That wasn't you." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1421.485", "endTime": "1428.605", "body": "No. Not yet. But now that you mentioned it, the next time I go to conference, I'm gonna, like, just start it by just yeah. Yeah. Lighting a light." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1428.605", "endTime": "1438.68", "body": "So you know, a wise a wise man once told me you've gotta build it, and then you've gotta gotta have two or three outcomes. Right? You gotta see, babe. Gotta film TikTok as well." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1438.68", "endTime": "1448.76", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. But, like, this is a that's a great example. Like, I built a lightsaber. I learned how to solder, and the soldering on that is just, like, millimeter, you know, perfect." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1448.76", "endTime": "1467.695", "body": "You gotta be just dead on. But because I learned how to solder from that, like, now I can repair guitars. My son and I recently did an EV swap on, like, a gas go kart of his, and so we three d printed a cluster. Like, all that stuff, man, it just, like, pays off. So I I find it fascinating, and that's who we look for is people that are gonna do stuff like that, you know." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1467.9199", "endTime": "1471.5199", "body": "Your your bread and butter, like, hacker news guys. So yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1472.08", "endTime": "1483.12", "body": "Yeah. So would you say that, like, content like that, is that, like, your biggest driver? Or is it stuff just sort of nerdy articles and things like that?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1483.995", "endTime": "1519.5549", "body": "Yeah. That definitely tends to play out really well as content, like long form content. Obviously, we kinda slice and dice it a little bit for other mediums. So you can think of, like, the TikToks, YouTube Shorts, even LinkedIn stuff, but I just think it's especially engineers seem to, you know, still get a lot of value out of, like, here's a bunch of context, you know, here's the the problem that we were trying to solve, and this is ultimately what we learned, and here's, like, the the TLDR, whatever. But that also also tends to come through really well in like AEO, so like AI engine optimization." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1520.4349", "endTime": "1538.12", "body": "Just like the more context you can give and the more like questions that you can kind of frame and answer in those posts tend to like get you boosted a little bit with some of the AI discoverability stuff. So, ultimately, content is the king. And I know people are like, oh, it's AI age. What do we do? You know?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1538.12", "endTime": "1559.51", "body": "Do we still do the same? I think well, I think if you're still honest and open and talk about things, like, that that recipe still works quite well. You just have to, like, not get too distracted by what's kind of going on in the ecosystem around you, just like focus on, you know, what you're trying to say and what you're trying to do. So, yeah, content for sure is still is the biggest thing. Conferences too, think, are probably really important." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1559.51", "endTime": "1590.77", "body": "I think meeting people in person is super important. And we kind of felt you know, engineers kind of fell out of that a little bit in COVID, and, like, there's actually a part of me now that, like, I just wanna go meet people again. I wanna go talk to people and hear what they're doing and what they're building and what sucks and what doesn't. Just really opens your eyes, I think, a lot, in a lot of ways to, you know, see and hear from others what's going on and, you know, even even just about them to be honest too. You can just learn a little bit, you know, what's going on in their lives and and you build really good relationships that way." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1590.77", "endTime": "1620.06", "body": "So and at the end of the day, I think software businesses are still a people business, which that was another lesson that kind of surprised me. I thought, oh, I'll just create a landing, create a sign up page, people will show up. But that, you know, it kind of did happen after some some effort, but the people that showed up that that stayed were because you showed up and you cared about them and what they were trying to do. You know? So that was another kind of, like, moment for me was, oh, this is still this is still a people business." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1620.235", "endTime": "1637.09", "body": "We still talk to people, you know, and if they can put a, you know, a name to the face and, you know, who know a little bit about who you are, that goes a long ways to building, like, trust and relationships. So that I say would be the kind of other big one, but they gotta get in the door somehow. So content, 100%." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1637.65", "endTime": "1645.97", "body": "Yeah. You you organized the conference. Right? Because you still run that. I know Greg from Polychrome was telling me about it before." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1647.01", "endTime": "1663.74", "body": "Yeah. We did two of them. It was a lot of effort, a lot of work to get speakers and get people to show up. And I think it mostly worked. I'm not super convinced that, you know, webinars or like doing them digitally is the best way to do it." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1663.74", "endTime": "1668.46", "body": "I really feel like you kinda have to get people in the room, and that's just really hard to do, again, as a bootstrapped." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1668.46", "endTime": "1670.0599", "body": "It was a digital conference." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1670.38", "endTime": "1685.7849", "body": "Yep. Exactly. 100%. We had some great speakers, like, guy from Playwright team was there, you know, other people from big companies, you know, well known companies showed up and talked, they had really interesting things. But it's just so easy to get distracted when you're watching something on a laptop." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1685.7849", "endTime": "1692.62", "body": "It's so easy. Like, I'll just go to Reddit. I'll just go to Slack or whatever it is to, like, look something up, and you boom. You're out of the loop. You're you're missing it." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1692.62", "endTime": "1708.3549", "body": "So, yeah, I think the next time we're to do it, I would really like to try to do it in person, but there is just a lot of it's very capital intense, and it's very time intense as well because you now you're dealing with infrastructure, like, in the physical world. So those barriers are hard to get around sometimes." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1709.475", "endTime": "1716.8348", "body": "Yeah. So so not not the priority right now. Like, going to conferences, yes, but not running one." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1717.1549", "endTime": "1735.37", "body": "Yeah. I think I'd love to go to more and sponsor more. And then, you know, maybe back half of this year, try to launch one and do it in person, probably in Portland, Oregon area if it if it if it comes to fruition. Maybe we'll just meet in a basement. I'll play some music, and we can talk about technology at the same time and leverage both of those things." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1737.505", "endTime": "1739.025", "body": "Do it the way we could do it." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1739.585", "endTime": "1742.9451", "body": "Okay. Nice. Dingy Basement at two until 02:00." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1742.9451", "endTime": "1743.9049", "body": "Dingy Basement." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1744.465", "endTime": "1745.265", "body": "We'll just have a" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1745.265", "endTime": "1749.505", "body": "big sign outside that says, yeah, free code, come inside. It's like the candy van" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1749.505", "endTime": "1750.5701", "body": "from from from from" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1750.5701", "endTime": "1751.29", "body": "when you were a kid." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1751.29", "endTime": "1757.61", "body": "It's bound to work. Yeah. Sure. You got a lot of browser people just roaming the streets." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1758.25", "endTime": "1761.53", "body": "Yeah. You'll definitely have inter interesting conversations one way or the other." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1763.4501", "endTime": "1775.675", "body": "Okay. Cool. So and how how has sales been going? Like, have you like, what have you learned about, like, doing, like, hiring salespeople, far?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1775.8351", "endTime": "1794.725", "body": "Yeah. It's funny. Again, this this is another case where what my assumption of what a sale like a good salesperson is really got flipped on its head after this business and like working with people who are really good at selling software or who know how to sell software. And the funny thing is they just they don't. They listen." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1794.725", "endTime": "1824.755", "body": "A good salesperson, like, listens and takes notes and then comes back and says you know, speaks to their points exactly. They're not like it's really not a high pressure sales environment. Right? We're not trying to sell used cars or anything. So anyways, it just shocked me, like, a good good software engineer or good software salesperson will just listen most of the time, understand the concerns, you know, and then come back to them with more, like, direct to their questions or points on how to fix something or how to go about solving something." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1826.1951", "endTime": "1886.705", "body": "And again, that has worked really well because, like, as an engineer, like, I listen to their engineers talk, you know, and if it's something I can't solve or we can't solve in our side of the fence, we could always, you know, help them out and be like, hey, listen, I heard you're using like HAProxy or NGINX, like like literally here's the NGINX snippet that we found really works really well. Just like a little little things like that, little free bits here and there just really go so far to like show like, hey, I'm really committed to making sure you like find success with this and I will go outside of my wheelhouse to make that happen. Just because you'll show up, you know. You'll show up in the times where something is broken on their end or whatever, and if you can jump in and fix it, like there was one customer of ours that had this issue several years ago and, you know, facing the same thing, like, a week ago, you know, almost the same exact problem. And I remember remember their use case really well, and I was like, oh, this happened like three years ago, and this is what you did to fix it." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1886.705", "endTime": "1893.14", "body": "Like, I just wanna double check that that might still be needed. He's like, oh, you're right. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. I never would have thought of that." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1893.14", "endTime": "1922.1", "body": "And I was like, I I I you just build these up over time. You've been around long enough, you know, oh, yeah, if you did this, it seemed to fix it the last time. So, yeah, I think, honestly, salespeople find somebody, a nerd nerdy person, but that is also just like a good listener and and has like this like helping attitude. So that's almost another trait that we look for is, like, firefighters, people that run towards a fire and not away from it, which kinda hard to teach that. But, yeah, sales have been great." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1922.1", "endTime": "1946.9299", "body": "I mean, a lot of product led growth. We get people that sign up on the service, use it for a while, and then they reach out to us and say, like, hey, guess what? We're actually this other massive company that wants to, like, fully onboard. We liked using your product or whatever. And so, yeah, by the time they reach out to sales or we get sales kind of involved, they're already two or three steps into the funnel, you know, so to speak, and and are kind of warm, which is really nice because you're not having to explain a lot of stuff." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1946.9299", "endTime": "1953.6499", "body": "It's more just like getting down to the nitty gritty details of what needs to happen. So, yeah. An amazing amazing experience when that can happen." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "1954.45", "endTime": "1966.9049", "body": "Yeah. And is is that typical? Would you say, like, mostly have, like, your sales person or if you have multiple responding to inbound stuff rather than doing outbound?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "1967.465", "endTime": "2000.9899", "body": "Yeah. I think we had tried a few times to do outbound, like, cold outbound. And of the thousands of times or, you know, messages or cold emails we've sent, like, it's very low, like, a fraction of a percent, like, click through or response. Especially in DevTools companies, I think they don't really speak well or have a lot of power until you find somebody that's in that problem right then and there, right, you know, that needs it at a point of urgency. So outbound just doesn't typically work a ton from what I've seen at least so far." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2001.07", "endTime": "2023.565", "body": "It's more just, you know, being in a lot of places, kinda having your name out there, and so when people do eventually run into the problem where they need your tool, it's like top of mind to them. Like, oh, yeah. Them on this, you know, platform or heard about them on this, you know, podcast or whatever. So, yeah, still still a lot lot lot of inbound demand. Yeah, outbound is tricky." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2023.965", "endTime": "2036.19", "body": "We'll still try some stuff, but like, just haven't seen it yet so far work well and be worth the investment too. So and I I just hate cold emailing people. I hate getting cold emails. I'm naturally resistive to it. So yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2036.59", "endTime": "2041.525", "body": "Yeah. I I did it in a former life for a little bit" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2041.765", "endTime": "2042.085", "body": "Oh, no." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2042.085", "endTime": "2061.8198", "body": "With two devs. And it was like, it's the hardest. So so odd to to just like I mean, also you just like I mean, I would send useful I would research every email and write them for better or worse. But it was still so soul destroying to do it." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2061.8198", "endTime": "2067.955", "body": "Oh, man. Was it at least like a like a good list of leads? Like, kind of, you know, maybe warmish No. A little" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2068.9949", "endTime": "2081.8901", "body": "Well, so it was that Stack Overflow. So there was like people had heard of us at least, but it was like they were like, why the hell are you emailing me? Like, what do you guys do? Like, it was like Wow. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2081.8901", "endTime": "2101.455", "body": "But it was it was yeah. So I I saw it does for at least them, it did work. But for me, it was just such a like, you just have to, like, send such volume that's just, like, no fun. I just I I left. I quit." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2101.5352", "endTime": "2101.855", "body": "So" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2103.5498", "endTime": "2108.19", "body": "I don't blame you. I probably would've left you. Yeah. Yeah. That could be Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2108.19", "endTime": "2113.15", "body": "Because you get you get all the people that are mad at you or how did you get this email? You know? It's like," }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2113.15", "endTime": "2120.5652", "body": "I I get that. I get that. But yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes what's really hard is like I would no." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2120.5652", "endTime": "2139.73", "body": "As I said, I would genuinely write every single email. I'd look at their profile. Like, if they had anything, would like read it blah blah blah. But some people don't have anything online. So like I would spend ages like researching, but then my email could have just been like a template because it's just like, there's nothing about them online." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2139.73", "endTime": "2172.2302", "body": "So it's like that that's where I think like, I'm actually kinda skeptical of all these like AI cold emailing things because I'm like, most people don't have very much online. Like, we're in a world where like, if you're talking to like founders, like, people that come on podcasts, like, that's a minority of people that you would ever email. And like so how are you gonna write them an email that's got any, like, relevance whatsoever? And like, I see in my inbox as mostly garbage. But" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2173.1902", "endTime": "2192.465", "body": "yeah. Oh, you you and me both. I would say probably like over Oh, it's it's so bad every week, like, hundreds and hundreds of cold emails about different things. The only time I think it could actually work is if you're like, hey. We're just like this other company that we know you use, but we're better or we're cheaper." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2192.465", "endTime": "2213.795", "body": "Like, those might have a better, you know, like click through rate or whatever to to kinda get to top of mind. But I don't know, for dev companies, not everybody wants to just build and repeat the same things that are already out there. They wanna do something new. Right? And so, like, because of that, it's really hard to like go through a formal process of outbound and like have a strategy because they're just it's a new thing, you know?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2213.795", "endTime": "2217.4749", "body": "So Yeah. Well, that sounds awful. I feel I feel sorry for hearing that from you, man." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2217.4749", "endTime": "2223.27", "body": "That'd be Well, I quit. Became a dev. So yeah. It was like, it was a good impetus. It was like, okay." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2223.27", "endTime": "2235.605", "body": "This is not for me. And then AI, obviously, like, agents, just a massive I mean, they're all using they're they're they're using browsers, aren't they? They are using them." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2235.605", "endTime": "2236.485", "body": "Oh, they are." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2239.205", "endTime": "2244.405", "body": "So, I mean, what's that been like? Has it just been like a massive wave coming at you? Or" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2245.925", "endTime": "2269.905", "body": "Yeah. It's a lot of, like, SM you know, small businesses, you know, indie developers trying to find something. Overall, I feel like big enterprises still aren't, like, totally on board with it just yet, and, you know, you see this kind of, like, in Clawbot and OpenClaw. It's like, there's just so much, like, risk tolerance you have to have in order to, like, adopt these tools and get the full benefit. And for big companies, it's not worth the risk." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2269.905", "endTime": "2293.035", "body": "Right? It's nondeterministic is the biggest problem is, like, it won't do the same thing every time. And so you do want really good guardrails around what's going on. So, like, more and more, I just see enterprise companies, like, getting stuff scaffolded in code from an agent, and then they take it from there and manage it. Like, they don't even allow it Autonomy, to to do it themselves or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2293.035", "endTime": "2326.0352", "body": "Like, they are still very, you know, I guess, disciplined about making sure that it's been really well reviewed, and it's in a system where it can't get outside access because it's just so unknown. But, yeah, definitely for, like, you know, new new users, I think we, like, doubled sign up daily since I'd say probably since, like, late last year. It's about doubled from where we were, which is crazy. And it's crazy to like wake up some days and just get an email from somebody like, hey, I put you in this part of this project, you worked great, blah blah blah. It's like, oh man." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2326.435", "endTime": "2345.67", "body": "We're just we just happen to be at the right place at the right time to a degree, it's part of it is just luck, but, you know, we use those tools a lot ourselves. You know, there was a little bit of, like of course, the next question comes up is like, how do you feel about this? Is this, like, a good thing or a bad thing? Like, what's your moral compass on this? Like and it's hard." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2346.185", "endTime": "2375.435", "body": "Like, there's no good right or wrong answer, but I did a lot of, like, soul searching and thinking back to, like, you know, the ethos of the Internet agenda, you know, what brought about the Internet. And, like, ultimately, I keep coming back to, like, well, it's just machines sharing information with other machines, you know. So and and that's that's AI. Like, AI is just in the machine in the wheel. I mean, so there's there's I think there's an argument against the amount of resources it takes and, like, how much it costs to train data and whatnot." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2375.435", "endTime": "2403.8452", "body": "And, like, that I think is all very fair and well founded. But in terms of, like, the you know, should it be allowed access to the Internet? I was like, well, the Internet is already a bunch of machines and, like, the whole, you know, motivation of the Internet was free and open data, you know, anybody that had access to the Internet could kinda go around and get what they wanted so long as they could. So I don't know. I have a hard time with, like, some of that with, oh, we shouldn't allow agents to do stuff automatically or whatnot, blah blah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2403.8452", "endTime": "2439.225", "body": "I was like, well, they're they're already doing it for one, but, you know, for two, like, the whole point of this was to, like, democratize data, you know, not have data moats or whatever. And so I think the more and the more it can be used by real people instead of, you know, bad actors or big companies, like the the more that gets democratized and and kinda levels the playing field. So I think there is like a world where it does work really well, you know, and people use it to their advantage versus just companies that had engineering prowess, you know, for for many years. But, yeah. I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2439.225", "endTime": "2451.3599", "body": "The other thing I always like to say too is, you know, we're in the GeoCities. I say this all time. We're in the GeoCities era of AI. It's messy. You know, there's, like, sparkles everywhere, and there's cursor trailer trails going around." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2451.3599", "endTime": "2474.09", "body": "So nobody kinda, like, knows exactly how to, like, work with it or or deal with or what to think about it. But, you know, this is the time where you get to help, like, shape that and decide. So I I really, like, strongly encourage people that, you know, have an opinion one or the other. Like, well, this is the time to to do something with that opinion because in a few years, it won't matter. The the ecosystem will have decided and it'll move on." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2474.09", "endTime": "2497.425", "body": "Like, you you, me, all of us are at an interesting inflection point in history where we decide the outcome from what this tool can do. So, yeah, that's my that's my soapbox speech. I'll get off my soapbox. Go do something important for or against it, whatever. But like don't just sit on the sidelines and let it happen without your intake or input because again, this is when we get to decide." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2497.985", "endTime": "2504.44", "body": "Yeah. That was very cool. That's very cool. Can I ask you a question that you you can say no to? It's just a ridiculous thing." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2504.44", "endTime": "2505.0", "body": "But if you want" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2505.16", "endTime": "2505.4", "body": "Okay." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2505.4", "endTime": "2506.1199", "body": "Coming towards the end." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2506.1199", "endTime": "2506.92", "body": "Bomb love it." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2506.92", "endTime": "2519.185", "body": "Gotta okay. I'm looking at the trumpet behind you. Like, do do you want to do do you have to play something that represents brass brassaless as" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2521.105", "endTime": "2522.465", "body": "Oh, man. Let me think." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2525.265", "endTime": "2526.145", "body": "You could say that. I don't" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2526.145", "endTime": "2530.865", "body": "know if got something on top of my head. I'll I'll hit you with something, though. You let me turn this down a little bit and see. Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2530.865", "endTime": "2542.86", "body": "Give me a sec. You may not recognize it. I'll just play a little something something. Little like a little fresh off them. Haven't played yet today, so" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2560.6401", "endTime": "2562.72", "body": "Oh, wait. That wasn't Mario, was it?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2562.72", "endTime": "2565.6", "body": "That is a sign. No. It's not Mario. It is a jazz standard." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2565.6", "endTime": "2565.76", "body": "This is" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2565.76", "endTime": "2567.5203", "body": "the of a jazz standard. Okay." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2567.6802", "endTime": "2568.0", "body": "So it's" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2568.08", "endTime": "2568.4001", "body": "I might even" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2568.4001", "endTime": "2568.6401", "body": "be able" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2568.6401", "endTime": "2569.12", "body": "play Mario. No." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2576.2349", "endTime": "2582.2349", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. Okay." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2582.2349", "endTime": "2596.69", "body": "That song is such a crazy song. I don't know how a Japanese company writes a game about an Italian plumber with Jamaican music in the background. It it boggles the mind. It boggles the mind." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2596.69", "endTime": "2599.25", "body": "They're just having fun. They're just having fun. That's" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2599.5698", "endTime": "2604.0151", "body": "yeah. Cool. The mushrooms, I think, are a good hint on what happened in the game development" }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2604.175", "endTime": "2604.335", "body": "They" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2604.495", "endTime": "2605.8552", "body": "of Super Mario." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2606.175", "endTime": "2615.055", "body": "There you go. There you go. Joel, so where can people learn more about you and learn more about Browserless?" }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2616.18", "endTime": "2631.0752", "body": "You know, we just spun up this new fan fancy YouTube thing or or reinvesting into it. So I'd say go check us out on YouTube. That's actually where all the fun, you know, hot takes are gonna be, I think, in the future. But, yeah, obviously, our blog, go to browserlist.io. Check that out." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2631.3152", "endTime": "2643.62", "body": "You know, we spam LinkedIn too, so go read our posts on LinkedIn. Some of them are really good. They're very insightful. They're not just hot takes to distract you. They actually are meaningful and do have, like pretty good information." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2643.62", "endTime": "2653.1401", "body": "So, yeah, I'd say those three are are pretty good start. But, know, hit me up, joel at browzos dot I'll, I'll read your email. I still do. I'll read them all even if they're cold. So let me know." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2654.115", "endTime": "2656.115", "body": "Send a good cold email, though. Come on." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2656.675", "endTime": "2661.075", "body": "Yeah. Dude, make Jack's work, not in vain." }, { "speaker": "Jack", "startTime": "2661.235", "endTime": "2670.9465", "body": "Think about a little bit before you Please. Let help me, pay for my sins of my cold emails. Thanks so much, Joel, and thanks everyone for listening." }, { "speaker": "Joel", "startTime": "2671.0264", "endTime": "2674.3064", "body": "Yep. Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it. And, yeah, thanks everybody, good luck out there." } ] }