Colin Casey (00:00:00): Hi, welcome to Sober Banter. Colin Casey (00:00:01): I am Colin. Rachel Casey (00:00:02): I'm Rachel. Rachel Casey (00:00:03): And we have our first guest, Miss Julie Fonts. Julie Fontes (00:00:07): Yes, I have an icebreaker question. Julie Fontes (00:00:09): But no, I thought of one when I was in the shower. Julie Fontes (00:00:12): That's really good. Julie Fontes (00:00:13): Those are the best. Julie Fontes (00:00:14): All right, let's hear it. Julie Fontes (00:00:15): Would you rather never be able to laugh for the rest of your life or have to go Julie Fontes (00:00:22): back to drinking? Rachel Casey (00:00:24): I guess I'm not laughing. Colin Casey (00:00:25): I don't want to cry for the rest of my life. Rachel Casey (00:00:29): Well, yeah, because I do believe that if I were to drink, I'd just be a suicide. Rachel Casey (00:00:34): That was the way I drank. Rachel Casey (00:00:36): And so I guess there's no laughter for me. Rachel Casey (00:00:43): What is your answer? Rachel Casey (00:00:45): I guess the same, Colin, or I don't think I could go back to drinking. Colin Casey (00:00:48): Yeah, I wouldn't because... Colin Casey (00:00:50): I could always just, Colin Casey (00:00:51): yeah, Colin Casey (00:00:52): I wouldn't be out loud laughing or chucking, Colin Casey (00:00:54): but I'll just kind of be like, Colin Casey (00:00:55): oh, Colin Casey (00:00:55): that was funny. Julie Fontes (00:00:56): Yeah, you get to laugh in your head, right? Julie Fontes (00:00:57): I was thinking I would be just like slightly amused for the rest of my life. Julie Fontes (00:01:02): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:01:03): I feel like we didn't give a proper introduction. Rachel Casey (00:01:06): You just wrote and published a book on your birthday. Rachel Casey (00:01:09): It was October 2nd, right? Rachel Casey (00:01:10): Yes, correct. Rachel Casey (00:01:11): Like a normal person, which. Rachel Casey (00:01:13): Yes. Rachel Casey (00:01:15): I'm guessing like drinking like a normal person or not drinking like a normal person. Colin Casey (00:01:20): Like the title. Rachel Casey (00:01:21): I love the cover. Rachel Casey (00:01:22): I love cats. Rachel Casey (00:01:22): I have two cats. Rachel Casey (00:01:24): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:01:24): And usually they come and invade this area when we're recording, but they're not. Rachel Casey (00:01:28): I would love it if they did. Rachel Casey (00:01:29): Oh no. Rachel Casey (00:01:31): They are scratching up these chairs. Rachel Casey (00:01:32): We have now pokes and they love it. Rachel Casey (00:01:35): So do you still have a cat currently? Rachel Casey (00:01:38): Oh yeah. Rachel Casey (00:01:38): On the cover. Julie Fontes (00:01:40): The artist, the cover designer, I sent her pictures of all my cats for inspiration. Julie Fontes (00:01:46): So it's kind of like an amalgamation of all my cats. Rachel Casey (00:01:50): I love that. Rachel Casey (00:01:50): It looks like a big fluffy fur, like a cuddly cat. Julie Fontes (00:01:54): We have a big fluffy calico. Rachel Casey (00:01:56): Oh, that's awesome. Rachel Casey (00:01:57): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:01:58): I've, Rachel Casey (00:01:58): Always grown up with a cat. Rachel Casey (00:01:59): Colin, not so much. Colin Casey (00:02:01): I adopted these two. Colin Casey (00:02:02): And as she said earlier, I have two cats. Colin Casey (00:02:05): She didn't say we have two cats. Colin Casey (00:02:07): Well, Rachel Casey (00:02:07): technically Mia was mine first and we got KitKat, Rachel Casey (00:02:10): which we thought was a girl and we found was a boy, Rachel Casey (00:02:14): but the two-year-old already learned KitKat. Rachel Casey (00:02:16): Our son, Evan, and there was no going back. Rachel Casey (00:02:19): so we were just like let's get cat that's a cute name for a cat we got we was drunk Rachel Casey (00:02:23): our friend came over and we were like yeah we'll take one and then we wake up we're Rachel Casey (00:02:26): like what and my son again two-year-old's already in love like there's no going Rachel Casey (00:02:32): back and yeah and i you have a daughter i do she is 23. Julie Fontes (00:02:39): I was really young when I had her. Rachel Casey (00:02:41): How does she feel about the dynamic of the book coming out and sharing your life? Julie Fontes (00:02:48): She's really supportive of it. Julie Fontes (00:02:50): She is a character in it, which is like something interesting to grapple with. Julie Fontes (00:02:57): having real people as characters in your book, but she's an only child. Julie Fontes (00:03:01): So in a way she just loves being the center of attention. Rachel Casey (00:03:04): I mean, yeah, it's so weird. Rachel Casey (00:03:06): And I've told my story at an AA meeting and my mom was listening. Rachel Casey (00:03:10): It is kind of weird because you're talking about, Rachel Casey (00:03:13): it's not the equivalent of writing a published book that goes a lot wider audience, Rachel Casey (00:03:18): but it's still, Rachel Casey (00:03:19): it's from your view. Rachel Casey (00:03:20): And even when we talk about memories, there's two different perspectives, you know? Julie Fontes (00:03:25): yeah and the perspective of the story i wanted to be very in the moment my Julie Fontes (00:03:31): perspective on what happened is completely different now from how i felt then oh Colin Casey (00:03:37): absolutely so you're saying when you were writing it it was different now yeah Julie Fontes (00:03:42): Yeah, because I'm big on first present tense. Julie Fontes (00:03:47): I want it to be a compelling story more than anything. Julie Fontes (00:03:51): It's not like, oh, this is how you get sober. Julie Fontes (00:03:54): It's more like, this is what happened when I got sober and it was kind of a shit show. Julie Fontes (00:04:00): which i think is a little bit more true to life because your problems don't all of Rachel Casey (00:04:05): a sudden all get solved no they don't yeah you don't skip off into the sunset no it Rachel Casey (00:04:12): doesn't but it's still life but it's weird because it's still better than when it Rachel Casey (00:04:17): was drinking so it's like you have this it's like it's not perfect but then you Rachel Casey (00:04:23): compare it to Rachel Casey (00:04:24): What it used to be like in your instant gratitude. Rachel Casey (00:04:27): And it's just, it's better than what it was. Rachel Casey (00:04:29): It's weird how that works. Colin Casey (00:04:33): One of my questions was, cause I know you said you tried multiple times to get sober. Colin Casey (00:04:39): So what were those multiple times like, Colin Casey (00:04:42): and how does that differ from where you are right now to where you feel ultimately Colin Casey (00:04:47): like you have it down or you kind of had that aha moment and figured out how to Colin Casey (00:04:52): stay sober? Julie Fontes (00:04:55): Well, Julie Fontes (00:04:56): the times in the past when I decided to get sober, Julie Fontes (00:05:01): it was always based on some kind of catastrophic event. Julie Fontes (00:05:07): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:05:07): And I heard that. Rachel Casey (00:05:08): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:05:09): Me too. Rachel Casey (00:05:10): And that's what it is. Julie Fontes (00:05:10): You weren't stupid. Rachel Casey (00:05:12): And we were asked to leave a friend's. Rachel Casey (00:05:13): We didn't talk to your friend after I was at the pool and I don't remember it. Rachel Casey (00:05:17): I was blacked out. Rachel Casey (00:05:18): I said something obviously pretty bad and I still don't remember. Colin Casey (00:05:22): There was a little bit of a physical altercation. Rachel Casey (00:05:25): There was? Colin Casey (00:05:26): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:05:26): Awesome. Colin Casey (00:05:27): You were trying to get one of his friends to drink with you and you were like Colin Casey (00:05:32): nudging her arm to pick up the shot glass. Rachel Casey (00:05:36): Yeah, I don't remember that, but I believe you. Rachel Casey (00:05:38): I know that they didn't talk to me for a while. Rachel Casey (00:05:40): And those are just moments that it's like, that would be a time. Rachel Casey (00:05:43): Okay. Rachel Casey (00:05:43): Maybe it's time to, and it would always be moderate. Rachel Casey (00:05:48): I don't know that I ever said before quit like forever. Colin Casey (00:05:52): Well, when stop, it was like, okay, we got it. Colin Casey (00:05:54): We would get a couple days and be like, oh, we stopped for a few days. Colin Casey (00:05:58): Let's treat ourselves. Colin Casey (00:06:00): And the only way we knew how to treat ourselves was by getting a bottle or a handle of Jameson. Colin Casey (00:06:05): We'll just do this for Friday and Saturday. Colin Casey (00:06:08): And then come Friday night, it's already all gone. Colin Casey (00:06:12): And we're going to door dash another one before they close. Rachel Casey (00:06:16): But what kind of events are, is this more like with friends, with work, or all... Rachel Casey (00:06:21): Family. Julie Fontes (00:06:23): See, here's what was difficult about it is like, I never lost a job. Julie Fontes (00:06:28): I never got a DUI. Julie Fontes (00:06:29): I like, I never like went so far. Julie Fontes (00:06:34): I like, it was never like a rock bottom. Julie Fontes (00:06:37): There was one incident where I quit for five years where like a romantic Julie Fontes (00:06:42): relationship that like a guy who I was really in love with. Julie Fontes (00:06:47): I did something at a bar. Julie Fontes (00:06:48): I don't even remember. Julie Fontes (00:06:49): I was a blackout. Julie Fontes (00:06:50): I like sat on someone's lap or something. Julie Fontes (00:06:53): And he wasn't even the guy that I was with. Julie Fontes (00:06:55): Wasn't even a good guy anyways. Julie Fontes (00:06:57): It's always like, yeah. Julie Fontes (00:06:59): He was cheating on me the whole time, Julie Fontes (00:07:02): but it destroyed our relationship, Julie Fontes (00:07:05): which wasn't even good in the first place. Julie Fontes (00:07:07): So I was like, okay, I can't do this anymore because I lost something really important to me. Julie Fontes (00:07:12): After five years, I was like, okay, I didn't drink for five years. Julie Fontes (00:07:15): I'm obviously fine. Rachel Casey (00:07:17): Right. Rachel Casey (00:07:19): And when I made it through pregnancy, that was my, oh, I can make it nine months. Rachel Casey (00:07:24): Like, obviously I don't have a problem. Colin Casey (00:07:26): Well, Colin Casey (00:07:26): and I remember there was one time when you were around six, Colin Casey (00:07:30): seven months, Colin Casey (00:07:31): you were like, Colin Casey (00:07:32): you know what? Colin Casey (00:07:33): After I have Evan, Colin Casey (00:07:33): I think I'm just going to maybe not drink as much as I did or not drink for a while. Colin Casey (00:07:38): There was a small time where you actually enjoyed being sober. Rachel Casey (00:07:41): I don't remember that either. Colin Casey (00:07:42): Yeah. Colin Casey (00:07:43): And I was just kind of like, we'll see how long that lasts. Colin Casey (00:07:46): At the same time, I kind of felt like I was missing my drinking buddy for a little bit. Rachel Casey (00:07:51): did you feel after the five-year stint that you almost like went harder to make up Julie Fontes (00:07:56): for last time or you think it was just kind of even keel um no i slowly got back to Julie Fontes (00:08:02): like binging every now and then what i discovered about my drinking is that it Julie Fontes (00:08:07): really mattered who i was drinking with and under what circumstances like how hard Julie Fontes (00:08:12): i would go um and like there was another incident Julie Fontes (00:08:19): where I got a therapist and like she tried to coach me how to moderate my drinking. Julie Fontes (00:08:25): And I talked about this was Winnie the Pooh. Julie Fontes (00:08:27): Yeah, Julie Fontes (00:08:27): I was like, Rachel Casey (00:08:28): I wrote that down because I, Rachel Casey (00:08:30): well, Rachel Casey (00:08:30): not that my therapist, Rachel Casey (00:08:32): so I also was in therapy the year before, Rachel Casey (00:08:35): but I almost used the therapy. Rachel Casey (00:08:37): I would lightly talk about my drinking. Rachel Casey (00:08:40): I wasn't being completely honest about how much, and I almost felt like she was co-signing. Rachel Casey (00:08:44): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:08:45): Not only that, but Rachel Casey (00:08:48): I didn't have a way to deal with life's problems. Rachel Casey (00:08:51): And I know there was not a single appointment that immediately after I didn't go Rachel Casey (00:08:56): get a drink because talking about emotional stuff, Rachel Casey (00:08:58): the only way I knew was to run, Rachel Casey (00:09:01): you know, Rachel Casey (00:09:01): and alcohol made me forget. Rachel Casey (00:09:02): Therapy almost made it a little more. Rachel Casey (00:09:06): They give you kind of permission to do it. Rachel Casey (00:09:08): Well, they say, oh yeah, it's fine. Rachel Casey (00:09:10): If you know, that's just normal. Rachel Casey (00:09:12): And I wasn't being honest, but it wasn't. Rachel Casey (00:09:16): normal drinking even some of the things i said i used it as a cosign like oh well Rachel Casey (00:09:20): my therapist says it's fine yeah i'm in therapy now so i'm all better than really i Rachel Casey (00:09:25): was just i'd probably go even a little harder and so what do you do for i know Rachel Casey (00:09:32): you're now author but did i read that you were in the service industry yeah i still Julie Fontes (00:09:40): weigh tables how is that Julie Fontes (00:09:43): Um, it's, I'm really conflicted sometimes because I am like my job is to sell alcohol. Rachel Casey (00:09:53): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:09:53): So like that part of it. Julie Fontes (00:09:55): And I like, I'm good at it. Rachel Casey (00:09:56): I was too. Julie Fontes (00:09:58): It's the hardest part of my job is to like, here's this thing that ruins people's lives. Rachel Casey (00:10:07): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:10:08): Have another one and pay $20 for it. Rachel Casey (00:10:12): And I mean, Rachel Casey (00:10:13): I, Rachel Casey (00:10:13): at the end of my waiting tables, Rachel Casey (00:10:14): one of the big things I started getting the shakes. Rachel Casey (00:10:17): Like I couldn't deliver unless it was a rocks glass by the wine stem. Rachel Casey (00:10:23): I would start shaking. Rachel Casey (00:10:25): That was even the beginning of pregnancy. Rachel Casey (00:10:27): It was like my body didn't want to part with the alcohol. Rachel Casey (00:10:30): Oh my God. Rachel Casey (00:10:31): And again, that wasn't a red flag for me. Rachel Casey (00:10:33): I'm like, oh, it's probably just the pregnancy hormones. Rachel Casey (00:10:36): Like it's just always a sign. Julie Fontes (00:10:38): There's always a pregnancy tremors. Rachel Casey (00:10:40): I didn't. Rachel Casey (00:10:41): read books because in service industry I'd be too shit-faced to read I kind of lost Rachel Casey (00:10:49): I mean I do audiobooks I like to listen to some in the car but I mean physically Rachel Casey (00:10:54): reading I kind of had a hard time when I first got sober sitting with your sponsor Rachel Casey (00:10:58): reading the big book out loud I didn't realize how much time I'd lost so did you Rachel Casey (00:11:03): read too while drinking like reading and Rachel Casey (00:11:07): you know, a book at night? Julie Fontes (00:11:10): Not as much as I want to. Julie Fontes (00:11:13): I'm like a total bibliophile. Julie Fontes (00:11:15): I love books. Julie Fontes (00:11:17): But there was a long period of time where I just didn't read any books. Julie Fontes (00:11:21): But when I quit drinking, I dove so deep into the Quitlet. Rachel Casey (00:11:25): I read some of the ones you talked about, like the Annie Grace one. Julie Fontes (00:11:28): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:11:29): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:11:30): And I didn't go to AA or anything. Julie Fontes (00:11:32): So... Julie Fontes (00:11:34): it's kind of where I found guidance, I guess, and I felt less alone. Julie Fontes (00:11:39): And, um, but I, I felt like yours. Julie Fontes (00:11:44): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:11:44): And it inspired me to write mine. Julie Fontes (00:11:45): Cause I felt like there's that whole wrapped up in a tidy little bow thing that happens, Julie Fontes (00:11:55): which is not what happens in my book, Julie Fontes (00:11:58): but it does show personal growth and like, Julie Fontes (00:12:01): yes, Julie Fontes (00:12:01): you're like, Julie Fontes (00:12:03): Go girl. Rachel Casey (00:12:05): I'm kind of at the, Rachel Casey (00:12:06): I've only got, Rachel Casey (00:12:07): like I said, Rachel Casey (00:12:07): to the beginning, Rachel Casey (00:12:08): I'm kind of like, Rachel Casey (00:12:09): I know that Henry was a character in the beginning. Rachel Casey (00:12:12): And so I guess another question is, Rachel Casey (00:12:15): did you just take notes or when you wrote the book, Rachel Casey (00:12:18): is it more memory based? Rachel Casey (00:12:19): Did you log some of the events? Julie Fontes (00:12:24): All of the above. Julie Fontes (00:12:27): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:12:27): So I, when I stopped drinking, I started journaling and I also hired a writing coach. Julie Fontes (00:12:37): It's actually in the book that I hired this writing coach when I'm like really spiraling. Julie Fontes (00:12:42): Cause I just feel so lost in life. Julie Fontes (00:12:45): Like I let my life get away from me. Julie Fontes (00:12:48): I was thinking about going back to grad school or going to finish school because I Julie Fontes (00:12:53): never finished my bachelor's degree. Julie Fontes (00:12:54): Like going back to grad school, you have to actually graduate first. Rachel Casey (00:12:58): I mean, I only had three credits when I got sober. Rachel Casey (00:13:01): I didn't even think I could go back to college. Rachel Casey (00:13:04): Like I thought I'd get rejected and Rachel Casey (00:13:06): I mean, Rachel Casey (00:13:06): I'm, Rachel Casey (00:13:07): I think now I have like 78 credits and I wish I had my bachelor's, Rachel Casey (00:13:11): but I couldn't do school with the state of like waiting tables was my career. Rachel Casey (00:13:17): And that was, Rachel Casey (00:13:18): I went fine dining and you know, Rachel Casey (00:13:20): in fine dining, Rachel Casey (00:13:21): you can make more than what I could. Rachel Casey (00:13:23): I didn't even know what I wanted to do. Colin Casey (00:13:25): I mean, there are career servers in the fine dining industry, making the money you were making. Rachel Casey (00:13:30): And I know what it feels like to be like, then you get sober and you're just like, Rachel Casey (00:13:36): this isn't what my heart's wanting to do. Rachel Casey (00:13:39): I want to do something more. Rachel Casey (00:13:40): And I can feel that. Colin Casey (00:13:42): I had a question too, Colin Casey (00:13:44): because I always like to ask this when we've done a lot of our episodes is just how Colin Casey (00:13:51): you got sober or what method worked for you because everybody's different. Colin Casey (00:13:55): But did you ever, Colin Casey (00:13:56): was there a time in any of the other stints that you had where you tried some sort Colin Casey (00:14:00): of group or AA or? Julie Fontes (00:14:02): When I was a teenager, I used to go to, Julie Fontes (00:14:06): NA because my best friend and I got caught doing drugs and then we got grounded and Julie Fontes (00:14:14): then NA was the only place where we were allowed to like go if we were leaving the Julie Fontes (00:14:18): house so that's where we would hang out yeah I didn't even like at that point I Julie Fontes (00:14:24): didn't really belong there yeah Julie Fontes (00:14:30): but it was like i wasn't even there to be there i was there just to hang out with Julie Fontes (00:14:35): my best friend you know because like because you couldn't go to the movies together Rachel Casey (00:14:38): i couldn't go do anything else yeah and i wanted to be like are you old enough to Rachel Casey (00:14:42): drink coffee yeah i started coffee at 11. Rachel Casey (00:14:45): okay so i'm like i don't remember when i sometime in high school but i don't Rachel Casey (00:14:51): remember when Julie Fontes (00:14:53): This last time it wasn't anything really from outside of myself that like, Julie Fontes (00:15:01): it was more of a mindset, Julie Fontes (00:15:03): like something just clicked where after trying to moderate and just, Julie Fontes (00:15:10): you know, Julie Fontes (00:15:11): actually being able, Julie Fontes (00:15:12): like I had a great summer of drinking. Julie Fontes (00:15:14): I. Julie Fontes (00:15:16): didn't blackout all summer. Julie Fontes (00:15:17): I went to Mexico. Julie Fontes (00:15:18): I went to birthday parties. Julie Fontes (00:15:22): I didn't blackout. Julie Fontes (00:15:23): I always wanted to be a normal drinker. Julie Fontes (00:15:26): And then at the end of it, it was like, and then what? Julie Fontes (00:15:30): I'm really just tired. Julie Fontes (00:15:33): And like it, it actually hurts still. Julie Fontes (00:15:38): I don't have to do anything to destroy my life for this to know that this isn't Julie Fontes (00:15:43): helping anything. Julie Fontes (00:15:44): Like it is making me feel sick. Julie Fontes (00:15:47): It's making me feel just kind of like, Julie Fontes (00:15:50): like everything is muted, Julie Fontes (00:15:52): you know, Julie Fontes (00:15:52): like, Julie Fontes (00:15:53): yeah, Julie Fontes (00:15:54): like all the vibrancy and life. Rachel Casey (00:15:57): I feel like that was mine. Rachel Casey (00:15:59): Nothing spectacular happened. Rachel Casey (00:16:02): It was a day at the zoo. Rachel Casey (00:16:03): And I remember having that vivid moment of, I can't live with alcohol. Rachel Casey (00:16:07): I can't live without it. Rachel Casey (00:16:08): Nothing major happened. Rachel Casey (00:16:09): It was just the feeling of internal, like, this isn't working anymore. Rachel Casey (00:16:15): I feel like those are the spiritual experience moments that I hear with success stories. Rachel Casey (00:16:22): I agree with Rachel Casey (00:16:24): what i've read in the book and also heard through winnie the pooh which i still Rachel Casey (00:16:28): think is so cute i love the humor you added if you're not doing it for you Rachel Casey (00:16:33): eventually it's the same as kind of like with codependence and the relationship Rachel Casey (00:16:38): because i i 100 am someone who would be codependent and i am that girl that Rachel Casey (00:16:47): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:16:48): I never dated any sober guys, Rachel Casey (00:16:50): but had they been sober, Rachel Casey (00:16:52): that probably would have been the only thing that could have kept me sober. Rachel Casey (00:16:56): The wanting to be loved or something. Rachel Casey (00:17:00): That's the only thing that could have replaced it. Rachel Casey (00:17:02): If you're not doing it for you, eventually. Rachel Casey (00:17:06): I feel it's cause it, yeah. Colin Casey (00:17:08): The first time you have some sort of roadblock, Colin Casey (00:17:11): you're going to turn to the only thing that's ever been there for you. Rachel Casey (00:17:15): And I feel like that's the kind of times where, when we talk about, I did quit for a little bit. Rachel Casey (00:17:22): I always had it in the back, like, well, it'll be there, you know, in the future. Rachel Casey (00:17:29): This was the first time where I really was like, it's a day at a time until it turned to Rachel Casey (00:17:35): Yeah, I'm definitely an alcoholic. Rachel Casey (00:17:37): Like when I put alcohol in my body, I won't be able to not have a thousand. Rachel Casey (00:17:44): I don't want one. Rachel Casey (00:17:45): I want like a hundred, you know, and that's just not normal. Rachel Casey (00:17:50): That's not how normal people think about it. Rachel Casey (00:17:52): Yeah. Colin Casey (00:17:52): Well, Colin Casey (00:17:53): I know for me, Colin Casey (00:17:55): I've always kind of in the back of my head knew I had a problem and didn't want to Colin Casey (00:17:59): address it because there would be times I would be thinking to myself, Colin Casey (00:18:02): like, Colin Casey (00:18:03): really shouldn't be having this other beer, Colin Casey (00:18:06): this another shot because I got work or something going on tomorrow or I already Colin Casey (00:18:10): feel like shit. Colin Casey (00:18:11): And I was like, I can't keep doing this forever, but I'm not going to stop today. Colin Casey (00:18:15): There's going to be a day where I'm not going to drink, but it's not today. Colin Casey (00:18:19): But I knew that day would eventually come. Rachel Casey (00:18:22): The other thing that you had mentioned too, is that I really liked the light in people's eyes. Rachel Casey (00:18:29): And I saw the light, Rachel Casey (00:18:33): like people told me my eyes changed color because they used to be a dark brown, Rachel Casey (00:18:36): but they're light brown. Rachel Casey (00:18:37): When you talked about drinking around other people, Rachel Casey (00:18:39): there comes that point where you start to see the light kind of dim. Rachel Casey (00:18:43): And I thought that was just fantastic. Rachel Casey (00:18:45): The way you describe things in your book, even when you're speaking, you are Rachel Casey (00:18:52): You do a great job of the imagery of feeling like you are there. Rachel Casey (00:18:56): And I think that's the I stance, Rachel Casey (00:18:58): you know, Rachel Casey (00:18:58): it's like you're talking from the first person and I still don't understand how I'm Rachel Casey (00:19:04): sober because I just didn't think I'd ever be sober. Rachel Casey (00:19:07): I just really didn't think that that would be an option. Rachel Casey (00:19:13): Like I never thought I would say that. Julie Fontes (00:19:16): So it's wonderful. Julie Fontes (00:19:18): I'm so happy for you and your child. Rachel Casey (00:19:21): And he changed, you know, and I don't know if what you saw. Rachel Casey (00:19:25): So if you had the five, Rachel Casey (00:19:27): did you notice a difference during the five year stint or how old was your daughter Rachel Casey (00:19:31): at that time? Julie Fontes (00:19:33): So that was actually kind of perfectly timed because she was 10 when I quit drinking. Julie Fontes (00:19:38): Me and her dad had split up when she was three. Julie Fontes (00:19:41): I did all of my heavy drinking when she was at her dad's house. Julie Fontes (00:19:45): Okay. Julie Fontes (00:19:46): So she didn't really see me drunk. Colin Casey (00:19:49): Cause you did say you were kind of one of the, where you binge on. Julie Fontes (00:19:52): So I would make up for all the time when I was with my daughter and had to be sober Julie Fontes (00:19:59): and be this one person, Julie Fontes (00:20:01): this sober mom. Julie Fontes (00:20:02): And when she would go to her dad's, I would just go insane. Julie Fontes (00:20:07): She didn't really see so much of a change. Julie Fontes (00:20:12): She didn't really realize that I had a drinking problem until, Julie Fontes (00:20:16): She was much older, I guess. Julie Fontes (00:20:18): And then she did. Julie Fontes (00:20:19): It's very normal in our family. Rachel Casey (00:20:21): My mom is sober. Rachel Casey (00:20:23): So my mom just hit 10 years. Rachel Casey (00:20:24): And that's awesome. Colin Casey (00:20:26): When I remember your mom got sober right before you turned 21. Rachel Casey (00:20:31): When I was young, I swore I'd never drink, never become my parents. Rachel Casey (00:20:35): I believe I'm truly alcoholic because once I had my first drink, Rachel Casey (00:20:40): I don't believe I even had a choice anymore. Rachel Casey (00:20:42): Like the sip, it was done. Rachel Casey (00:20:45): It was like, this is the thing. Rachel Casey (00:20:47): This is the thing. Rachel Casey (00:20:47): It makes you feel. Rachel Casey (00:20:50): We don't have one belief over the other, but in AA, I like the description. Rachel Casey (00:20:55): Bill says it's just that elusive feeling. Rachel Casey (00:20:58): And then when it becomes too bad, Rachel Casey (00:21:00): he says, Rachel Casey (00:21:00): you feel like you're in quick stand and it's all around you. Rachel Casey (00:21:03): You can't grasp anything. Rachel Casey (00:21:05): And that's exactly how I felt at the end. Rachel Casey (00:21:07): I can't go with it. Rachel Casey (00:21:08): I can't go without it. Rachel Casey (00:21:10): There is no correct answer in AA. Rachel Casey (00:21:14): what's wrong and then you have to learn Rachel Casey (00:21:17): I didn't even know who I was. Rachel Casey (00:21:18): And I think you kind of said that, but learning who you are, you kind of feel a little lost. Rachel Casey (00:21:23): I didn't know I liked reading. Rachel Casey (00:21:24): It's a little embarrassing that I can struggle at times. Rachel Casey (00:21:28): And I really liked the words you use. Rachel Casey (00:21:30): So did you have a literacy background before? Rachel Casey (00:21:32): Like, what did you study at Caltech? Julie Fontes (00:21:34): Yeah, I studied creative writing. Rachel Casey (00:21:37): I was like, you definitely have, even the way your chapters are put. Rachel Casey (00:21:41): I really like for someone who's now almost three years in school is definitely elevated. Rachel Casey (00:21:48): my vocabulary, Rachel Casey (00:21:49): but I was going to say it's, Rachel Casey (00:21:52): I just like the bigger words that I'm like, Rachel Casey (00:21:55): okay, Rachel Casey (00:21:55): wait, Rachel Casey (00:21:55): I might have to go look that up and I can get the context, Rachel Casey (00:21:59): but I like to look at what's, Rachel Casey (00:22:03): what's, Rachel Casey (00:22:03): what did you have? Rachel Casey (00:22:04): I just loved like performance, commencement, penance, limerence. Rachel Casey (00:22:07): Like I looked at it. Julie Fontes (00:22:10): Did you look it up? Julie Fontes (00:22:12): I was looking at me. Julie Fontes (00:22:13): It's such an intense, Julie Fontes (00:22:15): thing how did you use your words with that like what was the idea so i didn't like Julie Fontes (00:22:23): start out like i had a developmental editor who told me to break it up into these Julie Fontes (00:22:28): sections and then she suggested names for them i didn't have the names until it was Julie Fontes (00:22:34): like time to almost time to publish Julie Fontes (00:22:38): But I found Limerence was like on a podcast episode. Julie Fontes (00:22:42): Jillian Tarecki, I don't know if you've heard of her. Julie Fontes (00:22:44): No. Julie Fontes (00:22:46): She's a love and relationship coach, therapist. Julie Fontes (00:22:51): She's wonderful, brilliant. Julie Fontes (00:22:53): Check it out. Julie Fontes (00:22:54): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:22:54): I think it's called Jillian on Love is the name of her podcast. Julie Fontes (00:23:00): But she talks about Limerence, which is something that happened when I got sober and I... Julie Fontes (00:23:08): my relationship ended, Julie Fontes (00:23:09): I became obsessed with someone that I worked with and it didn't make any sense to Julie Fontes (00:23:16): me what was happening, Julie Fontes (00:23:17): like why it was happening. Julie Fontes (00:23:20): Like I could see it from outside of myself and it looked like kind of a mental illness. Rachel Casey (00:23:29): I mean, I feel like it takes with, you know, there's, I know what you're talking about. Rachel Casey (00:23:34): Again, I understand he's never worked in the restaurant industry. Rachel Casey (00:23:38): I totally get it. Rachel Casey (00:23:38): Like I'm with work or was it work? Rachel Casey (00:23:40): You said, right. Julie Fontes (00:23:42): It was someone that I worked with, which I never date coworkers, but. Julie Fontes (00:23:46): Oh, I did. Julie Fontes (00:23:47): And I never will again. Rachel Casey (00:23:50): It's not what I'd recommend. Julie Fontes (00:23:52): No, never again. Rachel Casey (00:23:54): I guess I should say never because I still tell, you know, I think. Rachel Casey (00:23:59): there's just these divine interventions that you kind of just know things like what Rachel Casey (00:24:03): you're describing right now. Rachel Casey (00:24:04): And I will let you continue of kind of having like that. Rachel Casey (00:24:06): I can see what it looks like from a top, but like, I'm still doing it. Julie Fontes (00:24:10): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:24:10): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:24:11): Like, like a session. Julie Fontes (00:24:13): Like I, Julie Fontes (00:24:17): things get planted in people's head over and over again like okay is he gonna text Julie Fontes (00:24:23): is he gonna text me what's going on oh i can go real cringe on he didn't like he Julie Fontes (00:24:27): didn't do social media so it was like i don't even have anything to look at that's Julie Fontes (00:24:32): so i would try to do a background check Rachel Casey (00:24:36): I would, I was psycho. Rachel Casey (00:24:38): Like I would see your online on Facebook or see you read my message and be like, Rachel Casey (00:24:42): I can see you read it. Rachel Casey (00:24:43): I met you when I was 22. Rachel Casey (00:24:45): There are so many red flags you saw and you proceeded. Rachel Casey (00:24:48): So this is on you. Colin Casey (00:24:50): I saw multiple because I was also drunk. Colin Casey (00:24:52): Probably one red flag, but I saw. Rachel Casey (00:24:54): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:24:55): And during our fights, when I threw things, when I got real drunk, real angry, I was a thrower. Rachel Casey (00:25:01): Like, I will throw a bar stool or a chair in the house. Rachel Casey (00:25:05): And, Rachel Casey (00:25:05): like, Rachel Casey (00:25:05): once we're fighting and it's stuck in the wall and the fight stopped because he's like, Rachel Casey (00:25:11): ah, Rachel Casey (00:25:11): that's just impressive. Rachel Casey (00:25:12): He was like, I'm over it. Rachel Casey (00:25:14): And I'm, like, throwing it at him. Rachel Casey (00:25:16): That's really, really nice. Rachel Casey (00:25:17): And, I mean, again, psycho. Colin Casey (00:25:19): It looked like a tornado just hit the house. Colin Casey (00:25:22): Things are sticking out of walls and things. Colin Casey (00:25:24): I'm like, oh, that's kind of cool. Rachel Casey (00:25:25): So, I understand when you say, like, I think that's just with Rachel Casey (00:25:32): I don't, so do you identify as alcoholic or you just, or not? Rachel Casey (00:25:36): That's not. Rachel Casey (00:25:37): No, I don't. Julie Fontes (00:25:40): I don't just being alcohol. Julie Fontes (00:25:42): So how do you, I don't put any labels on myself. Rachel Casey (00:25:46): I think that's, we're both again, very open. Rachel Casey (00:25:50): It's the same when we talk about religion and God, like, Rachel Casey (00:25:54): I'm more of a meditation turn it over in the universe. Rachel Casey (00:25:57): Like it just has to go to something. Rachel Casey (00:26:00): It's not me. Rachel Casey (00:26:01): It has to go. Rachel Casey (00:26:02): I don't care if it exists or not, but in my head, I'm giving it. Rachel Casey (00:26:07): to something because I gotta let go. Rachel Casey (00:26:10): I don't know how to let go. Rachel Casey (00:26:12): And God is just the easier term than breaking it down. Colin Casey (00:26:14): I'm just too lazy to think of a different word. Colin Casey (00:26:17): So I just say God or higher power, Colin Casey (00:26:19): but I don't necessarily believe in the same thing, Colin Casey (00:26:23): like a church's version of God. Julie Fontes (00:26:24): I guess I have a hard time with it because I feel like people who keep drinking get a pass. Julie Fontes (00:26:33): They don't have to call themselves alcoholic, even though... Julie Fontes (00:26:37): to say I was alcoholic when I was drinking it feels like the label is I cannot Julie Fontes (00:26:43): label myself in any way as bad because I will beat myself up with it historically Julie Fontes (00:26:48): I'm just like yeah you're just the kind of person who can't handle anything like Julie Fontes (00:26:53): but like I feel like in quitting drinking I've beyond that Julie Fontes (00:27:01): I'm now addicted to other things actually. Julie Fontes (00:27:04): Oh yeah. Rachel Casey (00:27:04): I mean, you joke that this is our new addiction. Rachel Casey (00:27:07): So I try to look at my alcohol usage. Rachel Casey (00:27:10): I don't regret because I use it as an experience to help the next person. Rachel Casey (00:27:15): If I didn't go through that, then I wouldn't be able to relate. Rachel Casey (00:27:20): So that's how, I mean, at least for me, I give it my little spin of it's like my superpower. Julie Fontes (00:27:27): So do your drinking people come up to you and like tell you how they're going to quit drinking? Julie Fontes (00:27:33): I feel like people do that to me all the time while they're drunk. Colin Casey (00:27:37): I know we talked about it recently in one of our shows. Colin Casey (00:27:41): I went to a bachelor party and I was maybe a year and a half. Colin Casey (00:27:45): Sober or so. Colin Casey (00:27:46): And luckily, one of the guys on the bachelor party with has had three years sobriety. Colin Casey (00:27:51): So the two of us kind of piled around together. Colin Casey (00:27:55): But one of the guys there who is from England who Colin Casey (00:27:59): I mean, pretty much all the other eight guys were getting as wasted as possible. Colin Casey (00:28:04): The nice thing was when the check came at the end of the weekend, Colin Casey (00:28:07): we didn't have to pay for the alcohol because we didn't drink it. Rachel Casey (00:28:10): Yeah, I wouldn't know. Rachel Casey (00:28:11): And it's so expensive. Rachel Casey (00:28:12): Now that I'm sober, I'm like, oh, my God. Colin Casey (00:28:14): He would apologize to me and say, like, oh, I don't usually drink this much. Colin Casey (00:28:18): I'm like, I don't care, dude. Colin Casey (00:28:21): I really like apologizing to me. Rachel Casey (00:28:24): Yeah, I'm not judging. Rachel Casey (00:28:25): I'm like, that was me. Rachel Casey (00:28:26): Yeah, I was that person. Rachel Casey (00:28:30): when people start getting in my bubble or I get like overly I try to say in my head Rachel Casey (00:28:37): show the grace that you have been shown before you got sober I think the best way Rachel Casey (00:28:43): to make sober it's not a promotional thing it's a compliment if people are asking Rachel Casey (00:28:48): because that means you're making it look good Rachel Casey (00:28:51): You're making sober look good. Rachel Casey (00:28:53): People always want to be pulled up, but typically it's dragged down. Rachel Casey (00:28:57): When you have that light in your eyes, Rachel Casey (00:28:59): that sparkle, Rachel Casey (00:29:00): it's not something everyone can obtain because it takes the white knucklings where Rachel Casey (00:29:06): I never saw my eyes change. Rachel Casey (00:29:08): It wasn't until I wanted to change that my eyes changed. Rachel Casey (00:29:12): My face, it was really, you can see it in the pictures. Rachel Casey (00:29:14): It's cool to see. Julie Fontes (00:29:17): It's like a relief to drink anymore. Rachel Casey (00:29:19): I don't have to think about it anymore. Rachel Casey (00:29:21): During the first few months, it was hard. Rachel Casey (00:29:24): It's not like I didn't still crave alcohol. Rachel Casey (00:29:27): I craved it like crazy in the beginning, Rachel Casey (00:29:30): but the meeting to meeting kept me because I didn't have a job. Rachel Casey (00:29:33): I had lost my job. Rachel Casey (00:29:34): I wasn't in school. Rachel Casey (00:29:35): I hadn't applied yet. Rachel Casey (00:29:36): I had a two-year-old and then he was starting daycare. Rachel Casey (00:29:39): I think AA was good for me. Rachel Casey (00:29:42): Because it kept me in a community when I had nothing else to rely on because I'd Rachel Casey (00:29:47): lost everything else. Rachel Casey (00:29:48): We weren't getting along because he didn't want to do AA. Rachel Casey (00:29:50): And I'm thinking he's going to go back out and drink because a little bit of the AA Rachel Casey (00:29:54): culture will make you think that anyone who's not doing it, Colin Casey (00:29:58): they're out there. Rachel Casey (00:29:59): And I'm just like, why don't you want to come on the lifeboat? Rachel Casey (00:30:04): But I realize not everyone has to do AA. Rachel Casey (00:30:07): I think it was my fear that I would drink again. Rachel Casey (00:30:11): that I projected onto anyone else who wasn't doing what I was doing. Rachel Casey (00:30:15): Cause I'm just like fear, fear, fear. Rachel Casey (00:30:17): And then I realized I'm not in control. Rachel Casey (00:30:20): Once I wasn't scared, I didn't care how he was recovering. Rachel Casey (00:30:24): So do you plan on doing any more like following up over the next few years? Rachel Casey (00:30:29): I know you just published your first one, so I'm not trying to. Julie Fontes (00:30:32): I don't think I'm going to write another book, another memoir type book. Julie Fontes (00:30:37): no i definitely like the act of writing the story made me feel even more crazy than Julie Fontes (00:30:45): living it carrying it yeah it's all very emotionally taxing so my next book is Rachel Casey (00:30:52): gonna definitely be fiction oh yeah well and your creative writing but i just Rachel Casey (00:30:57): wasn't sure if you're still like Rachel Casey (00:31:00): doing the notes like he's he is with stand-up comedy he's constantly doing notes in Rachel Casey (00:31:04): his phone or he has a little book in his backpack yeah i'm not as good at that but Rachel Casey (00:31:09): i'm also not as much of a writer yeah i'm more of a speaker than anything but uh i Rachel Casey (00:31:15): was just curious on if you're kind of like more aware of oh i want to write this Rachel Casey (00:31:21): down or note it but you also have the weekly Colin Casey (00:31:25): On Substack. Colin Casey (00:31:25): I was going to ask, are you just going to do maybe updates? Julie Fontes (00:31:28): Substack is the sequel. Colin Casey (00:31:31): Yeah. Colin Casey (00:31:31): Where you can continue where you are in your life. Julie Fontes (00:31:35): That goes to my Substack with the idea that people, Julie Fontes (00:31:38): if they're curious and want to know what happened next, Julie Fontes (00:31:42): it's all there on Substack. Rachel Casey (00:31:44): And we will put the Substack link in the show notes. Rachel Casey (00:31:48): So that way you are able to access it. Rachel Casey (00:31:49): Is the Amazon link the best? Rachel Casey (00:31:51): Or you want me to just put your website? Rachel Casey (00:31:52): I think my website. Julie Fontes (00:31:54): And it's just your name. Rachel Casey (00:31:54): It's Julie, Julie fonts.com. Rachel Casey (00:31:57): Yep. Rachel Casey (00:31:57): But yeah, Rachel Casey (00:31:59): that one of the things that's happening in AA, Rachel Casey (00:32:02): and that's one of the things that started kind of turning me in the other direction Rachel Casey (00:32:07): or trying not other direction, Rachel Casey (00:32:09): but trying to find, Rachel Casey (00:32:10): like, Rachel Casey (00:32:11): I definitely want inclusive, Rachel Casey (00:32:12): like the heart of. Rachel Casey (00:32:15): Anything I do, Rachel Casey (00:32:16): like the podcast or writing is like, Rachel Casey (00:32:18): I just want to help someone who was struggling like I was struggling. Rachel Casey (00:32:21): And I think that's what you say in your book is like, Rachel Casey (00:32:24): this story might not resonate, Rachel Casey (00:32:26): but if it does and you relate, Rachel Casey (00:32:28): you know, Rachel Casey (00:32:29): there's hope. (00:32:30): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:32:35): i felt so dumb about the reading thing and one of the new pitches at aa is that Rachel Casey (00:32:41): they wanted to develop a big book that was at a fifth grade reading level because Rachel Casey (00:32:44): there's a lot of people that get sober and it's okay i wasn't at fifth grade but i Rachel Casey (00:32:53): can understand how that would feel Rachel Casey (00:32:57): If you're not able to read and they vetoed it. Rachel Casey (00:33:00): Cause they're like, nothing can change. Julie Fontes (00:33:02): Everything must stay the same. Julie Fontes (00:33:03): That's part of one of the things that did turn me off is because I am so bookish. Julie Fontes (00:33:08): I did try to read the big book once and I feel like you shouldn't feel ashamed Julie Fontes (00:33:14): about not being able to read it because it's very unreadable. Colin Casey (00:33:19): Yeah. Colin Casey (00:33:19): And the terminology. Rachel Casey (00:33:22): So I break down the big book. Rachel Casey (00:33:24): I've done a lot of studies in making it in my terms and sharing that once I've Rachel Casey (00:33:33): heard Bill speak, Rachel Casey (00:33:35): you get a bit more of, Rachel Casey (00:33:36): I mean, Rachel Casey (00:33:36): he was a stockbroker. Rachel Casey (00:33:37): He wasn't a writer. Rachel Casey (00:33:38): This is also 1920s. Rachel Casey (00:33:39): He wasn't talking about women. Rachel Casey (00:33:41): That's why there's the whole chapter to the wives. Rachel Casey (00:33:44): That's the only chapter I really don't like. Rachel Casey (00:33:47): Cause I'm reading it and I'm like, Rachel Casey (00:33:49): you guys make it sound like all the women are just victims to their, Rachel Casey (00:33:54): not nagging, Rachel Casey (00:33:55): but like you're not in the role that he talks about. Rachel Casey (00:33:58): You're gonna have to let your husband go to the meetings and recover. Rachel Casey (00:34:01): You can't ask him to stay at home. Rachel Casey (00:34:03): And I'm like, God. Colin Casey (00:34:05): Or the, the one where you have to bring a drunk to your house and let them sleep on the couch. Colin Casey (00:34:10): And if you have to fight them, then. Colin Casey (00:34:14): You know, and it's like, what? Rachel Casey (00:34:16): Yeah. Rachel Casey (00:34:16): So it's looking for the similarities that I do understand connecting with another alcoholic. Rachel Casey (00:34:23): Definitely. Rachel Casey (00:34:23): I think this again, Rachel Casey (00:34:25): for where I was at in my life, Rachel Casey (00:34:27): the community is something I needed to get me to the next step of alcohol free. Rachel Casey (00:34:33): I don't think I would have survived on my own. Julie Fontes (00:34:35): Yeah. Julie Fontes (00:34:36): That makes total sense. Rachel Casey (00:34:38): Well, is there anything else you'd like to share, promote? Rachel Casey (00:34:43): Like I said, I'm going to put it in the show notes and the book is like a normal person. Rachel Casey (00:34:48): And I see it's behind you. Rachel Casey (00:34:49): I wanted to have a cover to show. Julie Fontes (00:34:53): I'll show it. Rachel Casey (00:34:54): Isn't it cute? Rachel Casey (00:34:55): I love the color. Colin Casey (00:34:56): Definitely grabs your attention. Rachel Casey (00:34:58): And I think the drawn hand art is really, I tried to do that with our first one with synergy. Rachel Casey (00:35:03): We had the outlines because I love that look. Rachel Casey (00:35:06): Yeah, but my artist is great. Rachel Casey (00:35:08): She's it's, that's so cool. Rachel Casey (00:35:11): And, um, well, we, we really, really appreciate you being our first guest for having me. Colin Casey (00:35:18): Well, thank you for helping me. Rachel Casey (00:35:20): Thank you again. Rachel Casey (00:35:21): And make sure to check out, we'll put her link for the website as well as the sub stack. Rachel Casey (00:35:26): The sub stack's great. Rachel Casey (00:35:27): I follow her on sub stack. Rachel Casey (00:35:28): Okay. Rachel Casey (00:35:28): We'll just say thank you for listening to sober banter and thank you, Julie, for joining us. Colin Casey (00:35:33): Thank you, Julie. Colin Casey (00:35:33): Thank you. Rachel Casey (00:35:34): We hope you have a good rest of your day.