Show Notes
Intro: Halter monitors, Boz moves back to LA
Let Me Run This By You: Philosophy. Do people who like to talk about philosophy also not like to talk about psychology?
Interview: We talk to Jimmy McDermott!
TRANSCRIPTJen Bosworth- Ramirez (
00:00:08):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez.
and I'm Gina Pulice.
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
Went from one to three. So I put it on three. I don't even know it does, but okay. I'll keep it on
Three. That's good. That's for sure. I'm sorry about all that. It's not your fault. Apparently I have it on three. I don't even know what one, two and three mean weird. I.
'm good. How are you?
Um, iron man, uh, what is that? That's a heart monitor that the, my new, um, cardiologist was, wants me to wear for a week to make sure everything's fine. They used to call called a halter. It used to be a whole situation. Now they just give you the stick on thing. And then it's like sending messages to my doctor and you press a button if you feel anything. But I never, I don't feel anything weird. Thank God. So, um, you sleep with it on too, and you can shower it's the technology is crazy. So it used to be this whole halter, like you'd have to wear like a, like a shirt with a, and now it's just a stick of iron man. Stick on. So what a time I love my new cardiologists love her. She's so awesome. It was the best appointment. Like I said, I think I told you so it was like, it just she's so nice. She was not shaming about anything. She was like, this is a lot of genetics and this is also, and you're doing everything in your power right now to take care of your heart. We're going to follow you. I think it was a one-off. Um, but because your father had heart issues, we're going to follow you and we're going to keep you on certain medicines for a little while, but she wasn't hysterical. So like, when I went in there, my, um, my blood pressure is always really high at the doctor's office. It's, you know,
white coat fever,?
white coat, hypertension, that's white coat hypertension. And so it was like really high. And, and the nurse was like, Oh, you know, and the people that, you know, I told you about how this is a concierge service and you have to pay $600 just to get in. Did I tell you, Oh my God, it's very LA LA. It is the worst. So, so the thing about Los Angeles is it's crazy, but also, um, so my doctor in, in Chicago referred me to this doctor that he went to, he did his residency with Dr. Weinberg. So I call and another doctor. So I call the first doctor at Cedar Sinai. Cause I figured Cedar Cedars-Sinai and I that's fancy go there. They have like a nine month waiting list unless you're having a heart attack. And I was like, no. Then I called Dr. Weinberg's office. They're like, yeah, she is taking new patients. But have you ever heard of we're concierge service? And I'm like, what, what, what are you talking about? They're like, it's a club. So you pay, you know about this, you know about this from just, Oh my gosh. So, and I, I never heard of anything like this through like there's different levels, so you could pay. And I said, what's the lowest level I could pay and still see Dr. Weinberg, who I love. And they're like $600 a year, a year. So it's not like, Oh a year. Not every time. It's not every time. So for $600 a year, you get in and you even just get an appointment with doctor with the doc, one of the doctors at the Pacific heart Institute. And so I was like, fine, fine. I can't be waiting eight months. Fine. Well, let me tell you something. I mean, it's not always true. You pay for what you get and get for what you pay. But sometimes it is like, there was no waiting. There was no, there was no, everyone was so nice. They was like, on time, she was, and she's just hysterical and funny. And like, but yeah, this concierge thing I had never heard about it in my life.
Yeah. It's, it's unfortunate because like, well, what we need is universal healthcare and it's ridiculous that we don't have it, but we don't have it. And so, yeah. So it's just like, anything else, if you have money, you can have great healthcare.
It's so crazy. And it's so gross. And so a lot of my friends that I've told have been like, that's disgusting, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, listen, you guys, I'm kind of in a hard place here because I need my heart tested. And I also happen to have the $600. So like, I'm going to do it. I'm not going to stand on principle and not get my heart treated because, because our is a racist classes, cesspool, I still need my heart to work. You know?
And I was going to say, it's so important that you would find a cardiologist like this because they say that women, the reason that women die so frequently from heart attacks where there was no warning science supposedly is because, um, women are less likely to go to the doctor with any type of pain and there's, and it's just always been so associated with men. Heart disease has been so associated with men. So the fact that she's making you feel good and she's great at her job is amazing.
I was like in love. She was like, can you come back every day? I said, I'm not paying $600 every time. I'll tell you that right now, Dr. Weimer, she laughed. And she said, I know it's a weird thing. She's from the East coast. You know, she did her residency. She did, they did their residency in Philly. So she's not an Southern California gout. And I just, I felt so like, I, she was like, you're not going to freak out whatever your blood pressure's high. She's like blood pressure means at that moment in your arm, your pressure in your arm is high. Now, if we need X, Y, and she just explained things. And then she took my blood pressure in each arm and it was normal again. So I was like, yeah. So it's just the hysteria, the, um, the, or like the fear, the fear, the straight up fear of like, Oh my God, something's wrong. And I'm going to, I'm going to be in trouble for the thing being wrong. Like it's my thoughts was, was totally taken out. And also nobody they're scared of heart things because that's all they do all day. So they're not like, they're not like a GP that just doesn't know and is like, Oh my God, your blood pressure is one 60 over. You're going to have a stroke right. In my office. She's like, ah, nah. So fantastic. So I feel really, that feels really good. It feels really weird to be in Southern California. I'll tell you that. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm sort of like, where do I live? But I live here. I keep telling myself, you live here, you live here. This is your home. Right. And, and I started putting up art, more art and um, I just feel, I feel better. So I'm doing all right. I just feel a little like, okay, I gotta establish my life here again,
Driving there. Did it feel like, did it feel like you were moving there all over?
Yeah, it did. And it also felt like, what are we going to find? There will people remember us, but everyone in my apartment, I love my apartment complex. It's hilarious. And it's real weird. And everyone is really, I mean, it's nice, it's fine. But everyone is real odd, which I love, like everyone is a character. There's, you know, six, uh, in a 93 there's 93 units. And like there's seven French Bulldogs, which I find hysterical. I know. And I want to get one. I know we, we're thinking of getting one named Doris, a girl, Doris, the bull dog. So anyway, I love being here. It's just getting reestablished of like, Oh right. This is right. Okay. Oh yes. And also
You had a major life event happened while you were away. So that's the other thing it's like, you haven't ever been in LA with whatever it is that you're dealing with now and you have to get used to whatever.
Yeah. And your new context. But I did, I lost, I've lost 13 pounds since I've been in the hospital. So that's yeah. And I'm doing it solely for the, for my heart. Like I don't, I mean, I'm doing it solely for health reasons, which is, I mean, look, I'd be, it would be great to, to feel a little better self-esteem wise, but literally I'm like, okay, well what can I do to make my organs feel better? Because that's why I'm here so that I can live past 65 and 67, which is when my parents died. So, um, yeah. I want, I don't want the, how old was your dad? 57. Oh my God. That is so young. So young. So miles is 54.
Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well and miles has a much healthier lifestyle than fully ever does, but uh, Oh, well, I'm glad, I'm glad that everything is Oh, okay.
Um, talk about your blog. It was, it's so good. It's so well-written and I mean, obviously you're a good writer, but I mean, it's really well written and it is so touching a chord with people. How does it feel?
Thank you for saying that. It feels great. And I was having this conversation with Erin last night. I said, I'm, I'm understanding something more deeply now about being a writer and basically what it is is that, um, every word you write has to be true if you're, if, especially if it's a personal sort of story, every single word has to be true. And then also like ring true as you're, as you're reading it as you're writing it. And um, if you're going to write, everybody writes personally these days, so everything is about people's take on things. Um, and so the world is saturated with takes on things. Um, which doesn't mean that one shouldn't write personally. It just means if you're going to do that and basically say, I have something to say here, you just have to be digging deep to figure out what the truth of something is for you.
And I feel like 65% of the stuff that I read that's personal has at least some percentage of it. That's just a regurgitation of another take I've heard before. And I know what that's like too, because if you're writing and you, you start to find yourself like using turns of phrase or something like that, that you just know you've read someplace else. I understand why you would do that because you'd say, well, it worked there. So, but it doesn't, you just have to keep figuring, you have to keep winnowing down to figure out the thing that's unique to you. And you can't do that if you don't accept yourself
Or no, I know yourself. Right. And that just comes back to like the theater school and, and co our college experience of like, how could we have been good actors? I mean, I'm speaking for myself. I, how could I have been a good actor? I didn't know anything. I wasn't digging deep because I, I was too, I wasn't, I didn't feel safe enough to dig deep. I was 18 years old. And so now we can really dig deep. So I think that that's, that's a Testament to that. You're really digging deep,
Digging deep. And, you know, I probably said on the podcast before, but one of my favorite kind of quotes about art, and I don't even know if it's true, but it's always attributed to Michelangelo. And they asked Michelangelo, how did you, how do you sculpt David? And he said, you just take away the parts that aren't David, I think is just taking away the, by the way, I'm not comparing myself to like, just like, it's like an inspiration, inspiration. Uh, you, you have on any given subject, you have a million ideas. You just have to cut away all of the ideas that are particularly true or necessary or relevant or salient and, and just get, get to the heart of the matter. And writing is rewriting. And I told you, I started that in a completely different way. And, and I had to, I mean, I, I really did spend like quite a few hours on it because I just kept being, going back and be like, but that's not exactly how, what I mean by that. And anyway, so it was great. The great experience was great. I feel I'm getting stronger as a writer. And I feel, I love books of essays. Like Roxane gay is one of my writers. And I think, um, one of these days I'll have enough essays that, that w that can be my book.
Well, you could also, I mean, what I thought when I read your blog was that you could also just start submitting your, your essays to places. So to, to, to magazines and anthologies of, of essays. I mean, in the meantime, cause that's what a lot of people do. Like, you know, like, um, I went to high school, uh, and, and, and sort of friendly with Samantha Irby, who does the same thing and she, yeah. Yeah. And she, um, she likes, submits to the New York times. I mean, you know, she had this blog that did really well, but she's got to eat and it's still doing really well. And that's how that was her foray into a book of essays. But all I'm saying is I'm like of the point where I'm like, don't wait, start submitting the essays.
All right. And I didn't, that would never have occurred to me. Okay.
Magazines, let me run this by you.
Um, what, how, when you hear people talking about philosophy or when you were in college or grad school and people were studying philosophy, just generally speaking, how does the concept of studying philosophy?
I don't know what comes up for me is I don't know what philosophy is like, is it a re talking Aristotle and all that crap or, or, and okay. And he's one of them. Yeah. Okay. So it strikes me as, uh, I think at DePaul, I took philosophy and I'm pretty sure I fail or got a D and I had to switch classes. Um, I, it strikes me as something that, um, I would want to do if I was trapped in prison, I might want to study philosophy. Like I don't, I don't, I'm not, not naturally to that, but I know there are a lot of people that are, but I don't, um, I feel like it's crazy making a little bit.
Yeah. I don't care for tell me why we don't care about it. And I don't care for it. Okay. Now I will preface this by saying it's probably because like you, I don't understand it. I don't, I don't, I vaguely, when people start talking, philosophically, just go, like my mind is going. Um, but I, but people love it. People love it. And people love to talk about it. I mean, on the song club house, I hear a lot of philosophical conversations and I kind of think You are interested in that if you're not interested in talking about psychology,
I thought that's where you might be going. I really think that if you don't. Yes. I agree. If you don't like talking about feelings, you're going to go to philosophy. Yeah. Right?
Yeah. Because I feel like when people start and I always, or maybe I will stop trying now, but in the past, I've always tried to like, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm with you. And then I just feel like I'm a balloon. Like, I am not with you. I am not with anything. What is up? What is down? And I guess that's what people, I think people, people like that feeling. Right. Whereas I want the opposite. I want to feel like tethered to the ground. I don't want to feel like I'm up in the air at all. Right. And so, but interestingly, I think when people are really savvy and they know a lot about philosophy, everybody thinks of them as a genius. But when you're really savvy about feelings or, you know, a lot about feelings, I mean, certain people think that, Oh, that's good. And that's important. But I feel like there's a lot of people who are, who are
Guiding your truck,
Like, your feelings, right? Like, yeah,
your feelings. your safe space. your feelings. There is no safe space or something. She'll take your safe space and shove it up your. That's what it was. Okay.
I thought
It was, it was your feelings. It was both. Oh no, it was both. He had a sign, a homemade sign. It wasn't even just a bumper sticker that said, your feelings and take your safe space and shove it up. Your was the tire. So anyway,
Here's the thing. I feel like people who like, why would you have a bone to pick with feelings? People who say, your feelings are people who somebody said, your feelings too. And in the same way that I'm, I'm not scared by philosophy. I'm just like, not interested. I feel like maybe people who love philosophy are sort of, they got there because it wasn't as cool or good or important or safe. I'm sure. You know, talking about you, you, you can't talk about your feelings. So you talked about your thoughts,
Right? So one is the brain and one is the heart, but it's not true. Those feelings are all about the brain too, but like, that's how they get lumped together. Right? And then it gets even further to feelings than our women and, and thoughts are men and it gets even more up because then it gets delineated. The, you know, women in the feelings and men and the thoughts. And I think you're right. I think it comes from people are really scared of feelings. Feelings are dangerous and they can lead to trouble. And if you just talk about your thoughts all the time that's Oh, as a therapist, if you talk about your thoughts all the time, you're safe, you know, quote safe. When I was a therapist, it drives, it would drive me crazy when people would intellectualize every single thing and come in and want to talk about their thoughts all the time. And I just kept thinking, this is such a bypass to what's really going on. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And
I have this fantasy of going into one of these clubhouse rooms where they're talking about philosophy and just being like,
Doesn't matter. Right.
Feel right now, how do you feel about, or not that it doesn't matter, but like, I'm interested to know about how talking about philosophy. It makes you feel yes. Right. There is, there must be something that is, so it could, it could be satisfying, but it could also be maybe, maybe it is, this is here, me asking a philosophical question. Maybe it is somehow emotionally healing for people to talk about philosophy. Maybe it's a way maybe if we really paid attention to it and we felt like we could understand what was happening in these conversations. Maybe we would find direct correlation between certain ideas that are, that are discussed in philosophy. We'd be like, Oh yeah, that's just,
Oh, that's yeah. That's just person centered, whatever. Yeah. Or like a modality that probably, and also I think that people are just scared, scared, scared, scared, scared, scared. Yeah. For sure. I just, it comes down to these like base feelings. I'm scared. So the other thing is I had to be, to be honest, I don't know the difference. What the hell is the difference in this is people are going to be like, Oh my God, turn this podcast off. What's the difference between really philosophy and sociology. Sociology is the study. Myles studied sociology at Northwestern. I don't know what that is. The study of people. I don't know what that is. Yeah.
Well, I don't know either, but I'm just going to give my uninformed opinion that I think, I think sociology is more the study of, and like how, what happened, how, how, what happens in society determines, you know, other things. But
Sounds good to me. That sounds good. Like a good definition. I also,
I also feel about the study of philosophy. I listen, I'm people who do it. I'm sure they're really smart. And I'm sure it's great for what it is, but I'm like, what, what's the point of this? What did, what did we do? What are we doing here? Like I
It's pontificating, it's pontificating, suffocating. Right.
I find that so boring. Well,
I also feel like in a day and age where the pontificating is, the time for that is probably over look at looking at our world. I mean, we need philosophers. Right. But we need them because they they're the basis of a lot of things. I'm sure. Whatever. I don't know. But, but they're important. I, I, you know, all philosophers matter and I'm such an, but I'm just trying to say, I'm just trying to say that I, I don't know what they do and I'm sure it's important. But what I feel is going back to feelings is that in this day and age where our world is on fire in so many ways we could sit around while the world is on fire and pontificate about how it got there. Or we could try to pick up a bucket like Paul home Quist is doing, you know, and like put out the fire, help put out. He was a guest. We had on a podcast who became a public school teacher, but from an actor. But like, so like we could try to put out the fires in whatever way. I'm not saying everyone has to pick up an actual bucket and put out a fire. I'm just saying, maybe do something that could contribute to making the world a better place rather than pontificating about it. But they probably would say we are doing something. I don't know, whatever
They would probably say we're doing. So, so this came up for me yesterday on clubhouse that I love. That's the whole premise of it is that there's all these old music playing in the background. My people are just shooting the basically. And they started talking yesterday about, I guess, one of the, you know, about NFTs. Yeah. One of the things about NFTs often is like, people are saying, it's what it's, what is it? It's not, how is that art? And you can take a pre-existing piece of art. And like, for example, Banksy burned that picture and now it's worth more. So art is in the eye of the beholder and somebody was saying like, well, you could literally take an image of the Mona Lisa and chop it up in certain ways and put it back together and then say, this is my piece of art, which I guess Andy Warhol did that. Not with a MonaLisa necessarily, but like he, you know, he, he really explored that idea of like, what is art? And it's all in the eyes of the beholder. But the conversation they were having yesterday is who deserves. And they weren't saying illegally, this one guy kept saying, I'm not talking about legal. I just mean like
Philosophically, who, who deserves
Should be credited or paid or whatever. And, and they talked about it for like an hour and the whole time I'm like, who cares? I mean, if you're talking about piece of art that I made, then I have an opinion about whether or not I want you to use it. If you're talking about whether am I going to get sued from using another person's piece of art, then I care about that. But why do I care about it in some theoretical sense? I just don't know what the application sure. There is a beautiful application. I just don't know what it is.
Yeah. And I, I would feel the same way. And maybe at the core, these people are really, they, they, what they really may be. And now here I am pontificating, but maybe what they really want to say is I want to be an artist. I want to create art, but I don't have any good ideas. So I, what happens if I just take the Mona Lisa and I chop it. So they don't personalize. Like they, maybe they want to personalize, but they can't do it. So they talk in these really grandiose terms. Um, and it just, I keep going back to this image of my mother actually. So one day we're at a restaurant and she, it was right after my dad died and she, and she looked really sad. And I, I said, you look really sad. And she slammed her glass down on the table, almost breaking it and said, I am not sad.
I'm angry. And, and, and, but she was like really sad and angry. Like, she couldn't be both. Right. And then she stormed out at the restaurant. So all this to say like, would she really, she couldn't, a lot of us can not just say what's actually going on. So like, I'm off, I'm in this room, this clubhouse room, right? Like I'm imagining myself listening to this and it's saying, you know, I want to be an artist just blurting out in the clubhouse room. We're talking about this philosophically, but wait, I want to be an artist. I want to be paid for my work. That's what's really going on here. That's what, I'm the heart of the matter. I think you, and I want to get to the heart of the matter. And I think people want to stay around the atmosphere of the matter.
Right. And, and so at the beginning of the conversation, I just said, since he was asking like, what's everybody's opinion, I just said, Oh, I just think the money should go to the artists, like the original artists. I don't, um, unless it's in the public domain, you know, something that's over a hundred years old. Um, I think you're right. I think if I was in charge of that conversation or whatever, I might, I might say the only reason we're talking about this is because we're all trying to figure out whether we, as the artists, you know, can be valued, deserve something, deserve credit. Like, to me, that would have been a fascinating discussion.
Right. But that's why you and I, you know, we're different. And that's how we have this podcast is kind of, because we're saying, wait, let's get to the, of what the hell happened here, or what is happening here? What is going on here? What, what taking a hard look at, at, at, um, at what happened in a cycle with a psychological lens, because that's a way to eventually maybe heal or at least move through and then move on and then be able to live your life and make art and get paid for it and have a good life and all that. But like a lot of people don't give a about that.
A lot of people don't give a about that. And since you brought up Paul Holmquist, that's the other thing I've been meditating on this week is, I mean, that really touched me when he said that he was experiencing actual healing. And that is also something that, um, Rob has said, and we've heard it a few times now. We've heard people say, wow, I am just the process of listening to people, talk about their experiences and try and putting that in the context of my own experiences is making me let go of certain things or find grace for myself or other people about certain things. And I think in some cases, just deal with certain things that people have pushed to the side. And you have been saying, I wanted to give you this credit. You have been saying from the beginning, we are giving a service. We are doing a service. And when you would say that, I think, okay, I guess to me, it just feels like we're doing something that we like, and it feels fun, but you're totally right. People are receiving it, not everybody, but some people are receiving it as truly like a gift.
Yeah. It's it's. And I think that is, that is where we're picking up the bucket and putting out the fire, right? Like that is our version of that. And, and we are like giving and not, you know, whatever it is, what it is. I'm not trying to say that we're like the world's greatest fireman. But what I'm saying is that at least we're, we're creating something that also has the potential and people have Ms. Saying, it is like your blog and like other things, this is healing for me. Great, awesome. That way. It's actually having an effect in the real world, putting out a fire, you know, or helping people move through a fire. So, yay.
Amen. And let the record reflect that if anybody wants to use this content for their own purposes in their art, it must, the dividends must stay with the original creator.
As my client, as my client used to say, Oh my God, I walked up. This client wants, and he had this huge tattoo on his neck. And, um, I said, Hey, you know, Jesse, what's your tattoo say? And he said, it says, you pay me. So. Okay, great. Good to know. So in the words of Jesse, you.
Yeah. Todd casts, we talked to Jamie McDermott. Jimmy McDermott is an awesome human being. He's a director. He was an actor. He's a consummate artists, strategic, thoughtful, he's engaging. He's so down to earth and humble and someone that we just really enjoyed talking to about life, about, about what it's like to go through, hard things about what gets you through hard things. And, um, it was just a delightful conversation. So please enjoy our conversation with Jimmy McDermott podcast. Interview is actually called.
It was actually before the term existed. So I, the only other time I've done something like this was an internet radio show.
Okay. All right. So you're, you're a pro congratulations, Jimmy, you survived theater school. And in my mind you did it with quite a great sense of humor. That's my lasting impression of you is how funny or,
Oh, wow. That that's that's that's no, I'll take that. That's nice to hear it. Yeah.
Did G now you graduated with a emphasis on directing, but that's not how you start,
Right? That's correct. Yeah. W I did my first year as an actor in the MFA program.
Okay. You got your BFA elsewhere.
Yeah. Your undergraduate degree elsewhere. What was that? A Florida Atlantic university. And it was a, it was a BFA in acting slash directing. You got the directing credit, whether you directed anything there or not. I directed a few things there, but actually my, my directing experience was, uh, uh, uh, I worked for a children's theater company where I grew up and I probably had directed maybe six or seven productions by the time I moved to Chicago through them. And then a couple of things, a couple of one acts, uh, through my undergrad, but that was so, uh, you know, I had some experience directing and it was very interested in directing, but, uh, when I was about, but the criteria DePaul included for the directing programs that I was looking at in my final year of undergrad, uh, they all seem to require a production, you know, at least three productions where all artists were paid and that was kind of like a, a running theme in it. And I learned quickly after that, that that's totally a deterrent to, you know what I mean? Like, because if, if I had directed three productions where all artists were paid, I'd be well into a career. Do you know what I mean? And it took me, you know, nearly five years after directing, uh, after receiving a directing degree from the theater school to get in that, in that position. I know what I mean. So it was, uh, so those, those things are, it's a, it's a bunch of made up stuff,
But so how, what,
When you thought you were going there to the theater school for the acting MFA, um, I'm just curious about, cause we, we re to the Perth, the podcast is airing today has a person who, who got two acting degrees. And I never really got a chance to like, get to the bottom of why two acting degrees. You already knew how to act. Why did you have to go do it at the graduate level?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's an excellent question. And, uh, I knew, I mean, I somehow knew, or at least I romanticized through like professors, I had that, that, you know, even if I did get and I wanted to be a director, that's, let's just put that out there. There weren't any illusions about that. But I thought like I, as I said before, I was clearly didn't meet whatever criteria was for a directing program. So either I just head out and try to do that on my own, but I really thought the way into it was going to be through acting. And then, and, you know, Joe Montana and ellos career was really big at the time. He is somebody who had transferred from being a really big actor on Broadway into a really formidable directing career. So like that path seemed like the most natural thing to me. And I always thought, you know, the kind of circuit of writer, director, actor, like that identity was really attractive to me. And I always thought that that was, uh, uh, uh, you know, I, I wanted to live like the, you know, a life of letters sorta in that respect, you know what I mean? And, um, so that was, uh, so that was all very interesting. And I, and I, and, uh, and I also knew kind of in the back of my mind that I would never be able to cobble together probably an entire, if I devoted myself to theater. And I was also very interested in film. I just had a very stupid way of going about that. And, and, you know, w that bore no fruit clearly because I was doing it very, very, uh, you know, in a very ill-informed way, but the, uh, uh, the, but, uh, sorry, I'm, I'm, I'm stammering, but the, uh, the, uh, so I, I, I knew that I was going to have to teach as a, as, as a component of that. And so, and the life of a professor was just very cool because, you know, they got to do what they wanted most of the time. And, and, you know, the workload seemed like it was, you know, every, everything has its administrative quotient, but it's, uh, but that seemed to be, you know, negligible and, and, and in that respect, uh, so getting a terminal degree and, and, and, and being able to have like a teaching credit, even if I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to cash in on that until till much later, uh, uh, it seemed like that that was a wise course of action. And, uh, and I will say in trying to get another acting degree, I really did kind of boil it down to a couple of schools. It like Carnegie Mellon, which I didn't have particular interest in, uh, art, which I didn't really Boston. Wasn't a draw, a draw for me, uh, Yale, which was number one, uh, for me. And then, uh, and the theater school, uh, in Chicago, because, uh, I was born in Chicago and I had extended family. There was a support system there. I like to the city already. I knew that, you know, I, I, it, it, it was in my bones. It was, you know, um, so that was attractive. And then, so the final year of my undergrad comes along and it was a densely packed year. I was really trying to finish, you know, it was really concentrated on that. And I knew I wanted to, to, to, uh, to kind of grew myself for a Yale audition. And I was like, I don't know that I'm going to make that happen this spring. You know what I mean? But DePaul was coming to Miami. I grew up in South Florida. Um, and I went to undergrad there. Um, DePaul was coming to Miami and I thought, okay, I'll go through the process because I don't want to audition for Yale, not having done graduate audition process yet, you know? And so I said, I'll do that this year, see how it goes, and then try to save up money to, and really, really concentrate on making that happen next year. So I went to the audition for the theater school and, um, and, uh, I did get in and it was, uh, and then, you know, it was faced with the prospect of, okay, do I live in South Florida, which I really, really did not enjoy being there. Um, do I live here for another year for the prospect of auditioning for Yale and then not get in, or, you know, uh, so th that, uh, that I didn't really savor that idea. So I decided I'll go check out the theater school and then, you know, uh, see if I like it. And then, and, and, you know, make this decision. And I went and visited it, and I fell much more in love with Chicago than I did necessarily the theater school, even though that doesn't really have any complaints about it. Other than the fact that when you walked into the building, it was this converted elementary school that was sort of disappointing because coming from my undergrad, we were really pretty well-equipped facility, you know, but the, like the idea of that, a city sort of grafting something inside of an existing older structure was charming in its way. I was also like, boy, this is a, you know, where's the lighting package in any of these rooms and Claire you lighting package. And she has, I mean, you know, obviously a different facility on a much, much more, you know, much more competent sort of draw. But, um, uh, so I was, so I, I left from that visit thinking like, well, I really, really want to move to Chicago. Never thinking to my mind that we'll just move to Chicago for God's sakes. Do you know? And, and, you know, and, and don't incur all of this debt. Uh, but I didn't, because I'd been a lifelong student of it at that point. I didn't have a gap year anywhere, you know what I mean? And so just conditioned under the auspices of like, I need to go in the guise of something, you know what I mean? I, I really felt like I didn't have any safety net or any purpose or any driver or anything to report to, unless I wasn't involved in a curriculum of some sort. And that was just because I know nothing else.
Were you, when you, when you went to came to DePaul?
Uh, it would have been 21, so I was right. Super young. Yeah. Yeah.
You must have, excuse me, just had a baby face. Cause we both thought you were our same age. Yeah. I was like, for sure, he's 17,
But I wa I was, I mean, I, I was a year older than probably junior cause your last year was my first year. And, uh, and you would have been, you were not there at my first year as you. You're probably my contemporary
Because I'm 45. I'm old. Yeah. She, she and I started in the same year. And then she did the thing is I, I didn't know any of this, about your acting you never talked about. So like, you must be a good actor. How did I not know this?
Well, you didn't know it because I'm not, I got, I got cut from the acting program.
So it was
No, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, it was, uh, and it wasn't a huge surprise that I got cut from the acting program because I just, I was not jiving with the acting training there at all. You know, it was, it was, it was really, uh, you know, I mean, not, not because it was just, I, I couldn't give over to it. I could not give over to laying on the mat. I, it was, there was an, and this was, you know, I mean, everybody there was trying to make their living and I don't deny, you know, I don't begrudge them that, but, you know, there was a, there was a real kind of like with, of Charlotte aneurysm coming from some of the summer ends of the faculty that I was just like, I can't believe you have a dental plan, you know? And so, uh, and, and I won't name names because those people were heroes to others. Do you know what I mean? And, and that's completely legit in their experience of course, but there were just pockets of it that I was just like, I don't, I, you know, I, I, I know I'm not really pulling much from this. Do you know what I mean? And it's not like I'm thinking it wasn't a situation where like, uh, maybe I'll use this down the line. Like it really was. I, I really feel I'm being, you know, taken, you know, something, somebody magic rights. Do you know what I mean? I feel like
One man's Jesus is another man or woman's charlatan. So that's to be said, and also Gina has a bit Of this sort of, um, well, I'm going to presume, like, there's this thing about not joining right? Where you just like, you, I'm not going to join because everyone's
That's. That is my, I would say that that's, that's, that's my most prevailing symptom throughout life. Yes. I cannot cannot cannot use anyone. Else's hashtag I cannot, you know, where anybody else's t-shirt I just won't do it. I'm biologically averse to it. There's something in me that was, that really needs to create distance. When I see three people wearing the same Jersey, I'm like, get me the outta here.
Well, let's try to unpack that a little bit more. You, you remember that since like your earliest memories in, in elementary school, you were feeling like there was a crowd that you didn't want to be a part of?
Well, I mean, I think it was mutual for sure. You know? Uh, yeah. I mean, I never, I never really, uh, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I started kindergarten when I was four and it was just too young, you know what I mean? Like, so I, with the speaking of contemporaries, like I never felt like, I, I always felt like everybody else knew something else that I didn't, you know what I mean? So I always had to try to create my own reality or my own thing, or my own little lane of, of whatever it was, because I just, I felt like I didn't get it. You know what I mean? And, and if I did get it, I didn't want it. It was, yeah. So there's a lot of sour grapes attached to that too, of course, but it's, but yeah, that, that fortified really early.
And did you, when did you first want to pursue acting?
Uh, I mean, you know, I think anything I ever wanted to be before I decided that I wanted to be an artist or a storyteller or, or, or, you know, take, you know, cut that path at all is, was, um, it was just like, I would always identify like the job that I wanted through a television show or a movie. Do you know what I mean? I, it was the conduit was always the, the actor somehow, you know what I mean? It was just like, I love what they're doing. I want to be that I want to be, you know, for a month. I remember actively, like in, in second, second or third grade, thinking like I wanted to be in the CIA, because that was the American version of what James Bond did. Do you know what I mean? It was just like, when I really wanted to be Roger Moore, it was, no, it wasn't, it wasn't the, the job, it was the sequence of events he gets to go through.
You know what I mean? So at some point I was just like, okay, now what, yeah. I like playing these things and, and, you know, and I would, I was a type of kid that like, I'd go out in my backyard and I would walk around and create movies in my head and sort of act them out in this, like it, my neighbors thought I was touch, you know? And, and my dad used to, like, I had this in our, in our backyard. I had this pattern that I walked, where I wore out in the grass. And my dad was like, beside himself, he was like, what is wrong? You know, he's out there flailing his arms and sort of, you know, creating this path in the, in the, in the grass. And the neighbors were just, what, what are we doing with these? It should be institutionalized.
That's awesome. I love that. When I think about it, that's to me, what, like directors do. I know a lot of directors I've worked with they're like pacing and seeing and moving things and yeah.
Yeah. It was, I mean, it is, yeah, I was, I was, you know, honing skill, I suppose, you know, but it was, you know, the, the, the, the, the just, you know, uh, like my, my, my muscles and my mind always took me to like, okay, uh, pretend this inflate, this, blow this up. You know what I mean? What w w create a world out of this somehow, that was always just fairly instinctive. Uh, so that it was, yeah. Yeah. That was so an idea of like, w w what can I do that just invites the most sense of play would be, and I wasn't good. And then when I finally started doing theater, like probably in middle school to a certain extent, it was the only thing I was ever any good at at all. So it was, it really felt like this is the only thing that I can pursue, because like, I, you know, I, I was a little bit above average student, but I was, you know, not, not, not sort of lazy, but I was like, I know, uh, prowess in sports or anything like that.
And, and, you know, and I didn't think of myself as particularly smart. So I was just like, you know, I want to, you know, this feels good. This is fun. I seem to have some kind of knack for it, or at least I have a mimicry property that I've seen somewhere else that I can apply in what I'm doing and get by with that. And that was still fun to me. I didn't feel like I was cheating. I felt like I was drawing on the things that I loved, you know? So, um, so that was so, yeah, I really fell in love with just the idea of performing and, uh, and I always considered acting as just a, uh, as, as being a piece of that storytelling. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't taking place in a vacuum for me, it was, I love the idea of what it takes to, to, to bring an audience through a narrative.
And, um, and, uh, and how you contribute to that as a, you know, and when you're doing children's theater too, you're like not, you're typically like playing like five roles throughout a thing too. So you don't get precious about one particular character or anything like that. You're you're, or the process of like, really building that character from the ground up is, is, you know, that's just going to get in the way of what you have th th th the task, you know what I mean? So you, you just have as much fun, you make as much delineation between those things, as you can. And, and, and, and you, you, you know, and at the end of the day, the kids see a story, you know, and I mean, and, and, or, you know, you go in and you try to do your, the clown routine. That's going to get the loudest, laugh out is a very simple transaction
Pitted me of an ensemble member to me in a real world. But like, like you, you, the old, one of the only actors that we've talked to that, that, and I know maybe you had dreams, but most people and myself included were like, I was just going to be a famous actor. Cause that's the, what we're going to well, yeah. If you want that,
I mean, I wanted that. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Because that, you know what, once you start doing that, and then you realize like, okay, what, you know, and, and the dream for me really always was, and, and to a certain extent, yeah. The ensemble is an attractive notion of that, but there's also like this, this, this great kind of scenery chewing, uh, you know, seizing of a moment too, is that, that I wanted to be on Saturday night live. Like that was, that was so part of when I was looking at, at, uh, at coming to Chicago is that I went to second city, uh, during that visit. And that was just after Adam McKay had wrote the pinata full of bees, which was like a really, really kind of Seminole, uh, golden era for, for, for a second city. Um, he was not in the cast anymore, but like Tina Fey had taken over his role.
So I, I went there and I saw that production. And then when I moved to Chicago, I started working as a bus boy there. So I really, because I wanted, I wanted the proximity to that, but at the same time, I felt like I need to study something in an institution because the idea of that degree was still kind of hanging over me because there was a certain longevity in that pursuit, but I, what I want and what I want to, more than anything to be was like, when I was washing dishes back backstage, you know, have somebody come on and say like, Scott ads, it's stuck in traffic. You need to get on stage. You know what I mean? Like I know the whole show, you know, and I did, it really did. I had that fantasy of just like, I could step into any single one of these roles right now, and they're going to come into the kitchen in their gun and evening, you know, and Lauren Michaels will be in the audience that night. And that will, that will be my thing.
I never get to. I mean, I'm guessing that nobody ever came and got you from your dishwashing and
They didn't, they didn't strangely, there was a very deep bench of hungry performers who had been improvising for decades, uh, that were in intertwined,
Explicably, more qualified than you. But did you, um, have a chance to hang out socially with any of them?
Yeah, sure. I mean a little bit. I mean, like, I wouldn't say that I, that I, that I was, you know, particularly friends with them, but it was, uh, uh, but yeah, I got, you know, I, I, I, yeah. I mean, know, you'd say, hello, would you say, ask them how the show was going? You'd say, like, this thing that you're improvising towards a sketch tonight was really strong tonight. I hope that makes it into the next review. You know, I love to talking to them about what they were doing and they liked to talk about it too, because they were in the middle of writing something, you know what I mean? Or, or, or, or kind of adapting something, crafting something from the improv sets to, to, to, to make it into the next thing. And, you know, um, I mean, some of the people who are not like really famous who were kind of the nicest to me, or like, would, would talk to me the most frequently, uh, I mean the, the funniest person in the world that I ever ever saw on stage, there was a Brian stack and he's a head writer for Kohlberg.
And, um, he was, yeah, he, he made it a point to make sure that he was on a first name basis with everybody on the staff, no matter what you do, he check in with you, but not in a way where, uh, but in a completely, totally genuine way was not perfunctory wasn't necessarily even small talk. He would just ask you an interesting question about your life, or like Horatio's sends, like, uh, would, would come back and you notice that I was like sad one day and he's like, you got lady problems. I'm like, yeah, right now you're really, really good to pick up.
Cute. So getting back to this thing about not wanting to buy what they were trying to sell you in terms of, um, how did you say, you said, like there were certain phrases that the teachers were saying at the theater school that you were,
I think it's a magic words. I mean, I really think that that, that, uh, conservatory training, it really is about like, what are the buzzwords of that five-year pocket? Do you know what I mean? 'cause, I've, I've noticed that I worked, uh, as quick as I did get to work at the theater school as like a guest artist directing like workshops and studio things in subsequent years. And I would realize that, you know, and, and I had one very good experience at one, one experience, which was unfortunate and it was, and, and I have to take a responsibility for it because I was just, I was not the adult in the room. I needed to be the entire time, um, nothing on toward happened or anything like that. But I was, you know, I mean, blurring the lines because these people feel like, even though you're, you, you have 15 years between you or something like that, it's easy to get back into an environment like that and feel like these people are your contemporaries and, and just learning that you absolutely have to create this, this, this brick wall there, uh, on, on so many, in so many aspects of that relationship is, uh, is important and that was hurt and it hurt to learn that.
And it was, you know, it cost me an opportunity because it, it just didn't go well. And it was weird because I couldn't, um, it was, I was reading room very poorly. I didn't have any idea that that was necessarily going on, but it was very clear that when they left the room, I was the topic of conversation and it was, uh, you know, and it wasn't good. Um, so, uh, they were so, uh, you know, that, that was, that was a bit of a rude awakening. And, and, and it was so, but I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was just not using the same vocabulary as the instructors they currently had. I, my approach wasn't, you know, uh, it just, it wasn't concentrating on whatever the kind of [inaudible] technique that was taking place there. And I think it had mostly to do with language because there was a complaint, the most misrepresentative complaint in the, uh, uh, in the evaluations was that I wasn't ever talking about character or intention.
I was like, that's. I'm just not giving you, you know, the, the, I'm just not phrasing it the way you're, you're, you're, you're used to hearing, or, or we are getting at it through how we're exploring the physical reality of what we're staging here now, you know, and also I'm in room three Oh two thrust with some 19 year olds that I have to figure out where they fit in this big play. Do you know what I mean? And while the cut system was not in effect, by that point, there was still this really strangely this prevailing anxiety of just being 19 in a conservatory that was as much anxiety as it was if they were, if the stakes were going to be cut, if that makes sense, but, you know, it was almost, it was almost like that, that was the most interesting thing to me is like getting rid of the cut system, didn't seem to relax the psyche at all of these, of these kids. It just, you know, I think that was cynically probably just because the lawsuits had mounted too far.
Right. And
I do think that there's something more humane about promising somebody that you're going to take them through a training institution that they've invested in at, at, at a certain, although there are certainly people in all of those experiences that you, that, that I looked at it in, in, in both of my experiences, uh, teaching there and some of my, both of my experiences directing there, and then some of my experiences teaching them, because I did teach a lecture class there for a couple of years too. But the, um, the, uh, uh, was that, you know, th there were sadly, there were some people that was like, you would have really been benefit. You really would have benefited by being cut in your first year, because you can't do, I'm not going to raise that Titanic here in this four weeks. We'd have, this is this isn't going to happen. You know,
That's very interesting, this whole thing about going back literally to the same school, uh, and, and having to do, I mean, I, I had forgotten until just this moment that I, so I left college and I moved to California, and then I moved back to Chicago, um, some seven years later and I was so excited to be back. I wanted to go, not, I wasn't excited to be back in Chicago. I wanted to go back to movement to music. I was, I loved moving to music so much, and I knew that John let people, you know, graduates come in. But I see it now that what happened to me was that I hadn't done any of the processing of my experience. So I kind of just went back and then like, felt all of the same unresolved things that I had been feeling when I was there. And it led to this disgusting, like posturing on my part. And I was trying to I'm, this is all coming back to me. And I was like, trying to do this thing of, like, I really get you. And, and everybody was
Like, I literally never laid eyes
On you. What the are you talking about? I, I hadn't begun to look at soul section of my life.
It's uh, yeah, no, I have, uh, there's a lot of harmonic recognition in what you're saying there. Yeah, absolutely. It's it, it, it is, it is, it is strange what environments can do to you when you return to that. You know what I mean? What, what it pulls out of you on like the cellular level and, um, it's, it is weird and, and I'm not a superstitious person at all. Like, in, in, in really much of any way, however, like there were room, like, I may be getting the room number wrong, but like three Oh two was a room that I had been assigned to several times. It was like, every class I had in that room was a class. I didn't like every rehearsal experience I had in that room was it experience that I thought was not strong. And, uh, and then I was back in this room again, which I knew I hated. And I thought, well, you know, that was forever ago. And it really did it, but, but the room made me feel like I, it was, uh, like just something wasn't right.
I have that. I've had that. It's so weird.
It's so weird. And, and, you know, and it's really tempting to like, blame the room and not my behavior. You know what I mean? But it's, but I guess that's how we cope.
That was mentioned. The only other time somebody mentioned a room number was Tate, and he did say room three Oh two. So there is something about it. And I remember
It's the room two 30, seven of the two 37 from the shining.
Oh, right. Got it. Got it. Uh, I, my worst acting experience was also in that room now that I'm thinking of it. That's very funny. Orgasmic adults escapes from the zoo.
Remember that girl? And you, the smell
Was horrible. You were Ogawa Delta,
The woman who, whatever, leaning out my window, talking for hours, I felt like it was the ring cycle. I felt.
Yeah, it was horrible. Horrible doing the ring cycle in room three. Oh two. The name of my new solo show that had been my solo show is going to be called the ringside.
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. There's just a, did you ever have that, like returning to the theater school and feeling like you were your younger self? I,
I teach BFA fours, but only since last year and it's all online. And so it's a different, it's something about the building I'm telling you right now. I had to go to the building for a meeting, right? The new building. I'm not, I've never been in the new building. And I immediately felt like, Oh my God, who are the cool people? Where are the pretty ones? Where are the ugly ones were? And I was like, Oh my God,
This is horrible. This is horrible, horrible, horrible.
I feel the same thing. If I was in the back, I am so grateful that I'm teaching online because it's a different, it's a totally different thing than being in. And you can't even, there's no scene. Right? There's no. See that. There's also no way of like doing the harm you can do when you're in a room with someone
I don't know about that, but it's
Finished. Right. It's diminished you, can't the energy can't be misconstrued in that specific way of like a physical weirdness, you know, or like yeah.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Or the proximity or just like he's breathing. Yeah.
Or like, yeah. I think it's just the weirdness. My weirdness gets kind of like, there's a filter, so that's good. So anyway, but I, I remember going back after I had booked a TV show and right after, and feelings, what I wanted was every teacher to come out and say, we're so sorry. We did it better.
We're so sorry.
But we didn't cast you as the lead in every show. None of that happened. It was like, maybe John Bridges was like, yeah, you have too much makeup on. See you later. And I was like, Oh God.
So, so
They never give you what you really want.
Yeah. I, you know, I, yeah, I, I, I don't know that. I would say that that's unique to the theater school at DePaul per se, but it's, uh, but it's, uh, it's done in a very incubated, concentrated way where you feel it in a really kind of acute fashion. So yes. Go ahead. No, go ahead. Beans
Cut from the acting program. And did they, did they suggest, I mean, I know you, you say you already knew you wanted be a director, so was that just the natural thing or did they offer it to you? How does that work?
Yeah, and it was in the same letter that they cut me in a subordinate paragraph. They said, but you can continue on as an MFA director. However, the stipulation was that I had to join the existing class because there are only three directors for any given year at that time. I don't know if it's different now, but, um, and the class below me was full. They had three directors for that. And the class that I was in the class of 99 had two directors, but the like right before school had started that year, the third one had dropped out. So there was a vacancy in that class. So the deal was that I had to finish the curriculum with those two, but I had to do the three years of the directing program in my remaining two years, however, a couple of the core classes and like maybe one or two of them were things that I had taken as the actor already. So there was a bit of a hybridization there, but the, it wasn't like, you can take your time and finish this whenever you want. They're like, you gotta, you, you gotta go with these guys as though weirdly I was the only person in that class to actually walk at the graduation ceremony because I was the only person to finish my thesis paper anyway.
Wow. So what happened when you graduated? What'd you do next? Uh, I,
Uh, I mean, you know, I tried to survive, nobody, nobody wants a 24 year old kid with a theater, uh, like an MFA in directing, like, not even in the theater, nobody, nobody is interested in you. You know what I mean? And I knew that I was, I was steeled for that. I didn't have real illusions about that. And, you know, and like rewinding even the decision about like, am I going to go into this directing program after being cut from this thing was, was, was one I had to make, because part of me was just like, thinking like, you know what I mean, in this past year, it's not that he didn't learn anything from the acting program at the theater school. I, I, I, I did, I would be lying if I said that I didn't. Um, but I learned more about what I really wanted to do while I was washing dishes at second city DNO.
Um, so I was just like, do I just go that path? Because that was the thing that seemed to make the most sense to me and this past fiscal year, you know? And, uh, and so, uh, how do I approach this? And then ultimately there was some scholarship money involved with the offer of the, the, the directing program. And, um, and I was just like already like, well, I put the year in, I know the people, I they're, my friends are good actors and I want to work with them in a certain capacity. And I think I have, I have a watching plays in that building for a year or two. And, and, you know, and I have this sense of like, you know, th th this might be nifty DNO. I mean, or like, this is a work around for this, or this is a way to address the fact that we're in a classroom, you know, uh, watching a play that doesn't belong in here.
You know what I mean? Like, so it was, uh, so those challenges became interesting to me. Um, when Jim also Hoffa was my acting teacher in that first year and the head of the directing program too, I had a rapport with him in some way. And he and I talked on several occasions throughout that first year where he would ask, do you think you're more of a director? And I was like, well, yes, absolutely. I am. And he was like, well, why are you in the acting program? It was just like, because I can't get into your program as a director, what the hell? You know what I mean? And he was just like, well, yeah, it'll read all of that stuff. I was like, well, you're telling me that now, you know, and it was, uh, so it was, uh, uh, so that was a bit of a strange conversation, but I thought, you know, I had my eggs, a lot of my eggs were already in that basket.
So it was like, yeah, let's, let's see this through because I don't really have any other prospects. If I go the second study round, it's not like I'm returning to anything that like, you know, I would have to start a ground, you know, ground level go through all of that training. Not only do second city, I'd have to do EIO, I'd have to do annoyance because everybody who was on the stage there had been studying improv for 10 years with Napier, with Del close, with all, you know, all of those kind of heavyweights, really. And, and you're, you gotta get inside of that scene. You know what I mean? So it really wasn't badly do I trade one scene for another, you know? And, um, and I had made some really good friends at theater school by that point. Um, although I was not close with my classmates until really the last couple of months of, of, of, uh, of that, of that first year, uh, you know, uh, because I had been, yeah, I don't know.
I, I tried to work as much as I could even just, you know, at second city, because I wanted to make money for the time that you were in the casting pool and you couldn't work anymore. And then you were, uh, uh, and it was just like that, that was my social life at that time. The people, the people I worked with there and the people I looked up to there, and I was like, yeah, I want to be around, I I'll go to work tonight so I can watch, uh, Rachel Dratch and Tina Fey do their little, uh, do their, uh, uh, uh, you know, they were honing those, those, those Boston characters, uh, UI, like watching them give birth to that. So those really exciting, you know, and you had a sense there working there that at that time, that it was like, this is like a goal. The people on these stages right now are going to be this next generation of, of comic sensibility in the United States. And they totally were, you know what I mean? That was no surprise to me when they became kind of the, you know, the, the, the, the, the great voices of our time, you know, great is relative, I suppose, but like, you know, the most powerful voices
Do they have, uh, so I guess we've had two other directors on here, but I can't remember if we've asked them bus, tell me if I'm wrong. They don't have some equivalent of the showcase for directors, some way that they're
Your, your thesis production was supposed to be that because, uh, and, uh, so that was it, but nobody came to see it, so it didn't matter,
Right? Like, I mean, how, how, how has that comparable there, or did they, did they invite you to come see?
Well, you know, th this was an education actually, uh, when I listened to, I listened to your interview with Alison Zell, who mentioned that Jim also has fought to get the thesis productions off campus and like into the victory gardens theater. And the year that I did it, we were at the Athenaeum theater. So him having to, so him taking it off campus and at least creating the potential for somebody to see it in a true theater space in Chicago, uh, I didn't realize he had full fought for that. And so that was a bigger deal. And so that, that actually, uh, he was my, my, my assessment of him was that he was tying to check it out when I, when I got there. And years later, uh, you know, Mt said that labor was a really, that he was a much more checked out than I thought, but I was pleased to learn that the year prior to me coming there, he at least fought for something like that and unmitigated disaster.
Uh, no, it was, it was called, uh, slaughter city as a play by Naomi Wallace. Um, and, uh, it was, uh, it, uh, and, and it was, you know, I did everything very poorly and very wrong in it, and it was, uh, uh, uh, so it was, it was really hard. My context though, my dad got sick in the beginning of 1998 and died in November 98. And then the thesis, I started my rehearsals for my thesis on like January 2nd DNO. And it was, it was pretty much a lost cause. Although like I was fighting through it, I was getting up every day and, and doing it. And, and, but like in this very sluggish way, and, uh, the day I got back to Chicago in 99, the, there was this blizzard that was like really honest to God, like four feet of snow, and it didn't melt the entire winter Danno.
So it was, it was just, it was as harsh as you could possibly think. Do you know what I mean? Just the whole experience of those months, that rehearsal period leading up to that production were just physical conditions were hard. And I was, I can't, I don't even know if I would say if this biggest mess that, that I've ever been in my life because I was, it, it was, you know, look, I was a 23, 24 year old kid, and I had not dealt with my dad's illness nor his death at all. And, and, you know, and so I was carrying a lot of unprocessed stuff and that obviously, you know, uh, brought itself out in self-flagellation and anger. And, um, and I had an actor in that production that was going through something herself, and it got to a point where I was just like, your grief is nowhere near, as exquisite as mine.
And I am going to take this out on you right now, because I don't believe what you're suffering could be possibly any different than I am and I'm coming prepared and I keep showing up and I know what I'm doing, you know, and, and it was, and I knew better than to, you know, do grief comparisons or suffering comparisons or anything like that. But I chose in my righteous anger to like, you know, to say, I'm going to make, and now I'm creating a toxic relationship with somebody that I need to deliver for me to, you know, and it was, it was really and, and, and the product manifested itself exactly how you would think, because that's what it looked like, you know? And it was, uh, uh, yeah, it was a, it was a rough time. And, you know, and I had classmates that said to me, he was like, dude, take a year off.
Do you know what I mean? Or, or, or ask if you could do your thesis in the spring instead, because you're not gonna be able to do this. And I was, and, and that was just the, you know, that, that cemented him. He was like, no, I got to do this. You know, my dad would roll over in his grave if I didn't do this, you know, that was, those were the justifications, but I was just no shape to, to see the biggest project that I had in my career at, as a student there. Uh, I was in no shape to see that through and, and, and, you know, and it, yeah, it's suffered greatly. It was, it was, you know, it was, I mean, it had a face, there were good moments. There were really strong performances in it, despite a lot of the stuff that I was very unhelpful with.
Um, but, uh, yeah, but it was, you know, it was a mess. And, and one of the only reason, the reason that I w that I probably finished writing the thesis paper and was the only one in my class to do, because I was just like, I have to exercise this, you know what I mean? Exorcised this, you know? Um, and so, yeah, so luckily I did one last production, you know, in a movement room there, um, that I thought was my strongest work there so that it did feel like it ended on something that was, uh, hopeful, you know, but that was a very dark winter and, you know, in, in my life, in that year, and in the experience of being an artist and, and, and my kind of pursuit of that degree,
Did you, did you, but you, you obviously directed after that, so you graduated and you tried, you said nobody wanted it, dude,
But I didn't, I didn't direct for probably nearly three years after that I had to, you know, and this was the other thing too. Like the only re the only way I kind of got back into theater was both through, uh, acting and scenic design because people always needed a dude in their play. You know what I mean? And, and, uh, so I was like, yeah, I'll play a small role in this. And it was, you know, just these storefront theater companies, and one in particular called the side project that I did a lot of work with for a long time, um, where, you know, you, you go in as an actor and you just start to develop a relationship with the artistic director and you say, look, this is what I really do. And, uh, actually I found the scenic design, uh, elements, uh, kind of, uh, uh, a stronger way into directing because you're, you're, you're kind of creating the reality of the P you're creating the world of the piece. Do you know what I mean? So people would see your mind working much more in that way than they would you showing up to play a bit role in something, you know? Um, so yeah, but I, wasn't a trained scenic designer. I couldn't draft anything. I just had ideas of like, I, you know, and I wasn't a carpenter either, but I was like, I could build this, I could assemble this. And that's our concept.
It's very spare. It's very open, very deconstructed. Yeah. So, um,
But that's what they could afford anyway.
So we obviously talk, talk about the things that actually help people to survive their theater school experience, and you having to grapple with a major loss. It sounds like the way that you, you kind of did the, you kind of did the white knuckling your way through it, version of survival, um, very much, but, but is there anything else you can point to as something that helped you survive? I was going to think it was your peers, but you said you had kind of not really connected with all of them necessarily until the last couple of months.
That wasn't the first year by the time I was in my third year. Uh, you know, uh, I mean, you know, uh, absolutely. I mean, you know, really, really, really very close friends. Um, uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, uh, Shane affirm is one of my best friends in the world and she, she was very, uh, uh, you know, she didn't literally hold my hand through like that experience, but, uh, I knew I could always count on her and Jason, Dennis, Zach, and Chris Schultz, Kelly, Holden, uh, Kelly Ogden, uh, uh, those were, you know, those were the people in my life for sure. And, and, uh, so yeah, there were, they were, they were great. I did, yeah, I know by the time I was in my third year, I was completely in the incubator of the theater school. That was, you know, that was, that was, but it was a weird experience because most of you know, to have friends, my core group of friends were mostly undergrad actors, even though I friends with the guys in the MFA, uh, class, too.
Um, but, but I lived with undergrad, uh, folks when I first moved there too. So, you know, that, that, that was, uh, and they were all there. The undergrad, we, we lived in an apartment that was apart from Tom Lemaire's coach house thing that he lived there was the closest department and the biggest closest apartment to the campus. So between classes, no matter what, everybody who was a, in the class of 99 was in our house all of the time, everybody. So it was, uh, so it really was just, it was like a stop gap is where you went between classes. You know what I mean? And it was, uh, so you were never alone ever in that house, uh, you know, exponentially in exponent of your roommates, I guess I should say. So, um, that was, and even when I had moved out of that house, I was there more often than I was at the apartment, you know, the studio for a minute lived in.
So, uh, yeah, no, but, uh, yes, my, my, my, my, my, my friends and the people I trusted were the only thing that got me through it, although I did elect to spend a lot of that time alone too, because it was, uh, you know, it was, it was just, everything felt as messy as a commitment as it possibly could. And, you know, to a certain extent you were like, I want to spare everyone else, this, this just, you know, anger and frustration. And, and it wasn't even like I would wake up crying or anything like that. It wasn't a, and another thing that helped him, this was a very weird thing. Uh, but I do remember it, uh, there was, uh, uh, an album with one track on it that I would listen to every morning, because every morning I woke up and I was just like, I, I w I'd rather be dead.
And, uh, and, but I'd play this one song. And it would, uh, uh, in explicable reasons would, would, would be the thing that would say, okay, soldier on again today. So that was that, it's a very, very, very obscure thing, uh, by, uh, uh, uh, the, the moniker that he went under, this was called Barry black, but he's, uh, he's a songwriter called Eric Bachman. He w he wrote for art. He was the front man for archers of loaf and crooked fingers, uh, was his kind of solo project after that. But he's also done, uh, albums under Eric Bachman, but he, this way was called Barry black was a side project of his, when he was in archers of loaf. Uh, it was a song called golden throat. And for the lyric content doesn't have anything to do with that time or anything, but it was just something about the tenor of his voice, the March of the song. And it was a, one of those songs on an album that Lee led another song that was just this kind of like punk fight song, but with horns, uh, so it was like listening to those two songs and it was in the middle of the album. So I just have to go to those two tracks. So I'd listened to that song and then it would bleed into the other thing. And the other thing was the thing that just made me feel like I could, you know, that like physically got me to my feet.
I love that. I love that. We, I, I lived in an apartment in Chicago where my next door neighbor played the song. I will always love you. And every day, all, all day, all the time.
Yeah, yeah. Four months,
She was working through a breakup
Where her body guard had just been
Then could have been, she could have been deep into it with Kevin Costner, but, uh, I love that song and I really appreciated that she was going for something, but it is something about, yeah, the, I, I totally know what you're talking about. I can't think of a song I've done that with, but I know I've done that. And it's the repetition, and it becomes like the way that you sort of prep yourself for facing your next emotional journey.
Yeah. I mean, I've never had anything quite like that since or anything like that, but, but that's, that's kind of why it particularly sticks out in my mind because it was, it became the ritual. It became like, I was like, yeah, this is, this was, this was, I don't know what the alchemy is there, but it's, it's it is, is, are you going to direct again? Probably not. No. Oh really? Why not? No, no, I haven't done anything for a very long time actually. And so, uh, uh, yeah, I haven't really. Yeah, no, I, I it's, it's it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's over, let's just say you don't want to do it anymore. Uh, I don't know what is on the other side of this, frankly, you know what I mean? And I also know for very good reasons, the professional landscape is gonna change, you know, and I don't solve anybody's PR problems in that respect.
So, uh, the, and I've been very, I mean, I'm, I'm five years out of having directed anything professionally. Um, and, uh I've um, so no, I don't know what it is. I don't know what the medium is going to be. Uh, and, and I'm not sour grapes in that at all. Uh, I think it's, it's, uh, uh, and I don't, uh, and, and, you know, I don't live in the city anymore, actually. I live about an hour outside of the city, so, you know, I'm not part of like the, the geographic community really anymore. Um, and I, yeah, I, I don't know. I feel pretty outmoded as an artist, quite, quite, quite frankly, as a theater artist,
Maybe, but like, one thing I've learned in these last five years is you can ignore it for a time and pretty soon it's going to come knocking on your door. So how are you going to get your artistic needs met if you're not,
Uh, I think I'd have to, I'm really lazy about it, but I think if, if I'm doing anything, it's going to be about, uh, just kind of reentering short film and making that. And, and that's like, there's no career path in that for me either. It's just that that's, that's where I think I'd have to do it. And I like making film a lot. I haven't done very much of it, but, um, but I like it. And I think I have a knack for that vocabulary.
So maybe you'll direct our, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna film the teaser of our, uh, pilot. So maybe you'll be at our director.
I mean,
Here's the thing, I still talk about Jimmy McDermott, German as my favorite theater director and people are like, they remember you, they remember you, I'm like you guys, Jamie McDermott, my favorite
Theater director, and people are like
That guy. And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm telling you right now.
Exactly. He's asking himself the same question. Um, the, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, uh, I, I was the associate artistic director of an equity theater for a couple of years, too. And, and, you know, so I was, I lived that life, you know, to a certain extent. Um, and it, it was still really, really hard to get war, you know, it's the balance of like, if you commit yourself to an institution you're not available to freelance and the way that you build the resume, that's really exciting to people. Um, and then when you get out and freelance, you're hustling constantly for work. And then I had a very small child, which was one of the reasons I stopped working in an institution because it was like these 16 hour days on the regular are not going to jive with bath time. You know what I mean?
So it's like the, uh, when I wanted to be a part of, of, of, of this kid's life, for sure. And, um, the, uh, so, uh, I found, I found parenting and trying to direct for theater in the model that we participate in to be really, uh, in congruent. And, um, although I did it for a while for sure. Uh, but it really was, it was about just chasing everything down. And the only things that were kind of worth pursuing after, while were gigs in academic institutions, because they, they, they paid not particularly well, but they, you know, you, you could at least look at your time and say, Oh, I'm making more than $3 an hour. You know what I mean? And, uh, so it, it did really become a matter of just like, look at the spreadsheet. You know what I mean?
And, and, and th this is not yielding dividends. And the thing about a Chicago theater career, and I've heard this said before, is that like, you have to arrive about six or seven times before you arrive. And even when you've arrived, you're still hustling just on a different level. You know, and I had arrived maybe five of those seven times, and I was tapped out because it really, it did get to a point where it was, you know, and I, I, I, I would never throw this at my wife's feet, but, you know, you have a partner at home that's like, wondering, when is this going to pay off? Do you know what I mean? And I didn't have a clear answer for her. And it was deeply unfair for me to try to carry her along in that narrative. And, uh, so yeah, I'd start really opening myself up to other realities.
And, and, and, you know, I'm saying this like, Oh yeah, one day I thought this, this was a painful, excruciating years, long extractive process, you know? And, um, yeah, and I, like, I still don't feel great about it necessarily, but, you know, I, I, I like my life a lot. I am very glad that whatever career pursuits I made, didn't jeopardize my family unit ultimately. And, um, so I'll take that, you know what I mean? And, and, and that's, that's, that's about it. And I, I have had an opportunity in the past couple of years to direct some things like at a community type level that we're not plays, but like performance issues, more or less kind of, uh, almost like in like staged concerts and things like that. And they've been fun and really fulfilling on their level. And, and, and, you know, one of the actors I worked on with that is like one of the greatest actors I've ever worked with in my life, and he's a lawyer, you know what I mean? Like, and it's just like, but he was like, you were so good. I can't like no notes, man. That's great. It's, uh, the, uh, uh, but even when you are equipped with everything, you need to make a production happen, it's still the hardest thing in the world. And to electively say, I'm going to do it on a level that's not equipped where everything needs a certain degree of review rehabilitation in order to like, hit the stage. Uh, it just, I'm just not up for that amount of work and inevitable disappointment understood,
Understood. And I know we have to end soon, but boss, can you just tell people about your experience with Jimmy since you're in here? My experience is this, that is a subtle interplay between yes. Well, I happen to love people that refuse to join things. I think that they are, because, because I,
I think that's that that's connected me with you too, that, that, that, that, and your, and your, uh, and your, uh, the first conversation you and I have was about the, yeah. The scene from a porno movie.
So I, I just think that there was a way that a quiet way that you have of getting actors to be in the moment that is not abusive and not in your face. And yet you still get the get there and your Mo the way your mind works is a very meticulous without being precious. That's what I'll say. And I so appreciate that.
Thank you. That's really great to hear. I, you know, that's, that's interesting. Uh, I, I, because I mean, I, I think people interpret, uh, I'm in a, no, I don't know about abuse, uh, as, as the term necessarily, but people interpret, you know, people draw different boundaries. Let's just simply say that, um, the, the, the, the unfortunate experience I had working at the theater school was such that I think I always knew this because I had an experience in undergrad where I saw this go a little sideways, a couple of times where the instructor was trying to get someone out of something by asking them to use an experience from their own lives, you know, and it was just like, always, well, you know, you got tears out of this person, but is, does that thing that you just made them do have legs and a production?
Do you know what I mean? Is this repeatable? Is this just retraumatizing someone? Do you know what I mean? And I found, like I never wanted to work that way because I, it was none of my business. I'm not a licensed anything. And, you know, I, and I don't want to have a situation on my hands that I can't, that I wish I didn't like open that, that gene. Right. And so something that I, that I have used in the past, and I don't think I was using this when I was in a student at the theater school so much, but something that I kind of continued to use afterwards was that, you know, I don't want you, I don't want to ask you about your experience. This isn't a therapy session, but if we're not getting somewhere in a scene, uh, I'll say, look, something analogous to this scene happened to me.
And it's a very unattractive thing that I did and said in a way that I behaved and a set of circumstances or an ultimatum that I gave somebody, and it was that dire, you know, and it's one of the most shameful experiences of my life, but that's what happened. And that's what this scene is. And if you're doing anything less than that, we don't have the motor of this thing, you know? Um, and that was very unappreciated by the theater school students. I can say that they, they thought that he shouldn't be exercised. You know, he shouldn't be, you know, using this as a therapy session. And I think that's right. But at the same time, I was like, some things are, you got to have some time. And what you're not telling of the person's story is that as soon as I shared that the scene was great, you actually deliver, you know what I mean?
So even when you were trying to avoid an abusive situation or your drawing a boundary or respecting a boundary, or it can be interpreted as an infringement and, and, uh, and you just have to be really careful with that. And that's another reason why I think like, even after that, I, I thought even after that directing experience, I always felt like I walked away with that. And the thing that I learned from the litany of mistakes I made on that was also like, I think I also had to surrender something that was really vital to, you know, which kind of plays into like, why pursue this, if, you know, if, if we're, and particularly if, you know, we're we're, if, when theater re-establishes itself, there's going to be given the last several years, do you know there's going to be so many things in place and so many things that people are watching for.
Do you know what I mean? That, like, when, I mean, I think a theater, any experience, any collective artistic experience should have a sense of safety and trust among the people, but we all pursued this in some way, because there was something dangerous about it too. Right? Right. Absolutely. And I don't know how to reconcile those two things. And as part of the reason that I feel like when I say outmoded, I was like, I don't know. I wouldn't know how to go back into it. Do you know, other than just trying to tell the story as, as, as clearly as you can. Uh, I, I, so to a certain extent I have this kind of relief that, like, I feel like I don't have to go back and try to navigate that because I would, I would, I would, uh, fail a lot. Yeah. Well,
Look for our phone call in 2022, when we we're making the pilot of Kiki, and we need an expert opinion. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina [inaudible] are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi for information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
Thank you.