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Hello, everybody,

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and welcome to Just DAOIT,

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the podcast for people starting DAOs.

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I'm Adam Miller, and I'm your host.

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As always, we are streaming live,

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and then we will push this

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to our podcast feed later.

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So apologies in advance for

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any technical difficulties.

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As always,

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the first half of the show will

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be the Just DAOIT news report.

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followed by an in-depth

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interview with Graham Novak,

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who I'm really excited to

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have on the show.

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In the first half of the

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Just DAO News Report,

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I will be summarizing

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recent DAO news stories,

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and Graham and I will be

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commenting on those stories,

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giving our hot takes if we

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agree or disagree with the

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author or what we think

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these articles mean for

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people starting DAOs.

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But first,

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I would love to just do a brief intro.

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Graham, welcome to the show.

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Tell us a little bit about yourself,

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and in particular,

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what makes you an authority on DAOs?

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Hey Adam, thanks for having me.

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Excited to join you for this.

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I am the CEO and founder of

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a company called Bezzanine Labs,

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and we build software for

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on-chain organizations.

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It's an application library

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for organizations to kind

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of mix and match,

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build their own organizations.

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I guess you could call me an

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authority in crypto or on DAOs.

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In 2021,

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I started an organization a lot of

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people participated in

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called Constitution DAO.

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We raised over $40 million

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in a few short days to try

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to buy an original copy of

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the Constitution.

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And the whole project was

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literally one week from idea to auction.

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And we ultimately ended up

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losing to Ken Griffin.

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Yeah, it's an awesome story.

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If anyone's not familiar

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with the Constitution DAO story,

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maybe we'll talk a little

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bit more about it later,

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but you can also Google it

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and there's lots of good media coverage.

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That's awesome.

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Well, let's dive into the news report.

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And then as promised, after the news,

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we'll go into a more

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in-depth interview with Graham,

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as we always do with our guests.

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So for the Just DAO News Report, again,

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I will summarize each of

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these stories for the

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audience and for you, Graham,

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and we'll dive into some

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commentary on each one.

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Sound like a plan?

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Sounds good.

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All right,

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so we haven't done an episode in

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a couple months,

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so we may have a couple

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stories that are several weeks old,

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but maybe new for our audience.

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So the first story of the week,

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this is a tweet from X,

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and the tweet is from Citidao,

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which is at Citidao.

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And the tweet is, citizens,

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it's time for an important vote.

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Should Citidao return our

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remaining funds to citizens?

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Vote here on the snapshot.

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So for anyone who's not familiar,

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Citidao has been around for

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at least a couple of years

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and got some media coverage

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as well when they incorporated in Wyoming,

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one of the early DAO LLCs in Wyoming,

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and I believe bought land in Wyoming.

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At least they always talked

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about buying land.

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I think they bought the land.

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And now they're running into

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something that I think a

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lot of organizations run

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into at some point over their life cycle,

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which is that they're

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thinking about shutting down.

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And in shutting down,

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returning whatever funds

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they have in the treasury.

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I'm not sure what would

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happen with the real estate.

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but returning the funds they

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have in the treasury to

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citizens so I've been part

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of some interesting

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conversations recently

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where for example I met

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someone who actually rage

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quit from city doubt

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earlier on in their

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development and when I say

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rage quit it's not because

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they had built a rage quit

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functionality into their

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dow smart contracts which

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is something some dows do

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do but the founder said

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okay you know what if you

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want out it's okay I'll

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give you your share

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or whatever you had

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purchased your NFT for and

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you can get out.

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But now today, from what I hear,

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there has been no rage quitting allowed.

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And so that's part of the

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interesting discussion now is, well,

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is the only option for them

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to completely shut down and

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return the funds to everyone?

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Or should there have been a

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rage quit function along the way?

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And if there was one,

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maybe they'd still have

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some passionate members and

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some people who would have left.

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So either way,

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it's going to be interesting

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to see what happens here in

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terms of whether they kind

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of wind up here and return

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funds to their citizens,

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as they call them.

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Yeah,

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my initial reaction is there's a lot of

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DAOs,

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there's a lot of organizations that

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launch very rapidly,

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especially during the bull market.

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And not all of them had what

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I describe as like life cycle plans,

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like what happens in the

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event that we lose steam,

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we run out of funding,

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or we just don't have

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enough interest or whatever

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our mission is no longer

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feasible is that you have to

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have like some type of

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authority some type of

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mandate from your

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participants like are we

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going to do this other

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thing or are we going to

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wind down and if you don't

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have that system baked in

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from the onset of how you

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even make that decision

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there's always going to be

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disagreements right and so

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if some people were saying

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I'm surely saying oh like I

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don't want to wind down I

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keep I want to still do

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this um if you don't have

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that mandate from the onset

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to wind down you're you're

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caught in a lose-lose

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situation um generally

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speaking especially in like

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a circumstance like this uh

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I just encourage

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organizations to try to

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make good ethical decisions,

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which it seems as though

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they're certainly doing, right?

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Which is, okay,

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if we don't have maybe the

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ability to continue

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building this organization,

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the right thing here is to return assets,

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distribute back to people,

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contribute pro rata basis,

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but definitely best of luck

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to them on that.

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Not easy.

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Yeah, totally.

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Yep.

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What do you think about Rage

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Quit as a feature for DAOs?

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Is that something that most

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DAOs should have?

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Is it just a design decision

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that maybe a select few

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will choose to implement?

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I think it is a good

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mechanism for some organizations.

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It's not going to be right for everybody.

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For those who aren't

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familiar with Rage Quit,

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it basically allows a member,

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a participant in an organization,

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to take their portion of

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the treasury and say, hey,

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I'm going to leave.

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The group's going to make a

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decision that I don't really like,

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so I'm going to take my portion,

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the fair portion of it,

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and leave and choose to not

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participate anymore.

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Now,

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this is problematic for some

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organizations if it really

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is you need everything or nothing.

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Like if you only have half

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the assets and half the people leave,

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what you're doing might no

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longer be feasible.

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And also...

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It doesn't it doesn't align

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incentives or allow an

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organization to have like really,

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really long term commitment

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to things as well.

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So there's good

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circumstances and bad circumstances.

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I think there needs to be

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more ways for organizations

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to return money and to wind down as well.

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I mean,

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it's something that we faced at

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Constitution Day.

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Yep.

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Good point.

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Yeah, it's interesting too.

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When I think about

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traditional organizations,

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not digital ones,

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let's say public companies,

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there would have been no

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practical mechanism to do

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something like a rage quit function.

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The infrastructure doesn't

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exist for a big public

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company to allow a shareholder to say,

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I'm going to rage quit with 0.0001% of

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The company's assets, which, by the way,

00:07:13.706 --> 00:07:15.067
are tied up in five or 10

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different bonds and maybe a

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bunch of stocks and maybe a

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lot of some physical assets.

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Now that with digital

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organizations having a lot

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of their assets on chain,

00:07:26.132 --> 00:07:27.173
at least much of the time,

00:07:27.194 --> 00:07:29.134
and this idea that so much

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of what's on chain is

00:07:30.415 --> 00:07:33.197
liquid or at least is tradable.

00:07:33.798 --> 00:07:35.038
Now it's an option.

00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:36.639
that organizations can

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consider for the first time.

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So it'll be interesting to

00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:40.019
see how that's used

00:07:40.060 --> 00:07:42.180
effectively where it is used.

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Definitely.

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Yep.

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All right.

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Turning to the second story of the week.

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So we have one more post

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from X. This one is from Dan Robinson,

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and he is a lawyer and

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coder and researcher at Paradigm.

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And his post is...

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It's disappointing to see a

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large VC try to bully the

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token governance process

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and delay community

00:08:04.410 --> 00:08:05.550
proposals at the last

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minute in order to advance

00:08:07.232 --> 00:08:08.473
their own pet projects.

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Now,

00:08:09.252 --> 00:08:12.975
this is a tweet quoting a post from

00:08:13.076 --> 00:08:14.055
Uniswap Foundation.

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Uniswap Foundation announced,

00:08:16.737 --> 00:08:18.158
this was about 10 days ago now,

00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:20.961
that a proposal that they

00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:22.362
were planning on taking to the DAO

00:08:22.923 --> 00:08:24.307
actually, we're changing our minds.

00:08:24.709 --> 00:08:25.911
We're not ready to let the

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community make the decision.

00:08:27.196 --> 00:08:28.240
We're just going to go a

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certain direction.

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And this had the effect of

00:08:32.203 --> 00:08:33.524
rubbing some people the wrong way.

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And, you know,

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I talk about this a lot

00:08:36.706 --> 00:08:37.726
because we see this a lot

00:08:37.767 --> 00:08:38.727
these days with DAOs.

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But, you know,

00:08:39.928 --> 00:08:41.710
anytime there's a foundation involved,

00:08:42.090 --> 00:08:44.412
I think people need to see

00:08:44.451 --> 00:08:46.212
that as a at least a yellow flag,

00:08:46.273 --> 00:08:47.173
if not a red flag,

00:08:47.594 --> 00:08:48.554
and understand what it

00:08:48.615 --> 00:08:50.495
means to have a foundation

00:08:50.755 --> 00:08:52.197
or a board of any kind

00:08:52.256 --> 00:08:53.138
involved in your DAO.

00:08:53.457 --> 00:08:54.258
If there's a board,

00:08:54.778 --> 00:08:55.739
you should think seriously

00:08:55.778 --> 00:08:57.240
about what power that board has.

00:08:57.520 --> 00:08:59.081
And do they have the power to decide?

00:08:59.682 --> 00:09:01.623
what proposals are allowed to be proposed.

00:09:01.863 --> 00:09:03.464
And even if a proposal passes,

00:09:03.543 --> 00:09:04.744
is it going to get implemented?

00:09:05.244 --> 00:09:06.184
And so I think, you know,

00:09:06.205 --> 00:09:07.365
obviously that's why I do

00:09:07.384 --> 00:09:09.785
the work that I do with the DAO LLCs,

00:09:09.826 --> 00:09:11.447
which I think are often a better fit.

00:09:11.466 --> 00:09:12.827
But I think the important

00:09:12.847 --> 00:09:13.707
thing is just to know,

00:09:13.727 --> 00:09:15.629
like if you're dealing with a foundation,

00:09:16.428 --> 00:09:17.490
you might call it a DAO,

00:09:17.529 --> 00:09:18.669
you might not call it a DAO,

00:09:18.690 --> 00:09:19.530
but that board of the

00:09:19.571 --> 00:09:20.791
foundation gets to decide

00:09:20.850 --> 00:09:22.491
what to do with that organization.

00:09:23.191 --> 00:09:24.153
And so it shouldn't be,

00:09:24.173 --> 00:09:26.056
it might still be upsetting,

00:09:26.076 --> 00:09:26.697
but it shouldn't be a

00:09:26.736 --> 00:09:29.000
surprise when you find out, for example,

00:09:29.041 --> 00:09:30.423
that foundation is in bed

00:09:30.464 --> 00:09:33.028
with the VC of the organ

00:09:33.067 --> 00:09:34.190
that funded the project.

00:09:35.673 --> 00:09:36.052
Yeah.

00:09:37.846 --> 00:09:38.986
The back context here is

00:09:39.187 --> 00:09:40.207
there's a handful of VCs,

00:09:40.548 --> 00:09:41.769
namely Andreessen Horowitz,

00:09:41.789 --> 00:09:43.351
that have very large token

00:09:43.392 --> 00:09:44.692
stakes in Uniswap.

00:09:45.173 --> 00:09:47.056
And they have their own sets of interests,

00:09:47.076 --> 00:09:47.855
their own incentives,

00:09:47.875 --> 00:09:49.418
their own types of interest agendas.

00:09:49.938 --> 00:09:50.438
At the end of the day,

00:09:50.458 --> 00:09:51.600
that's also representative

00:09:51.801 --> 00:09:54.123
of a DAO and any organization broadly,

00:09:54.143 --> 00:09:54.263
though,

00:09:54.283 --> 00:09:55.485
is you have lots of stakeholders

00:09:55.524 --> 00:09:56.505
and lots of different interests.

00:09:57.005 --> 00:09:58.027
So I'll actually take a

00:09:58.287 --> 00:09:59.748
counterpoint here as well, which is,

00:10:00.087 --> 00:10:01.249
this is one of the

00:10:01.308 --> 00:10:02.549
stakeholders that happens

00:10:02.570 --> 00:10:03.971
to have a large amount of

00:10:04.270 --> 00:10:05.932
voting power representing

00:10:06.413 --> 00:10:07.133
their interests.

00:10:07.153 --> 00:10:08.293
Part of this is public,

00:10:08.354 --> 00:10:09.235
part of this is private,

00:10:09.294 --> 00:10:10.755
but this is the type of

00:10:11.015 --> 00:10:12.177
politicking and pushing

00:10:12.216 --> 00:10:13.597
that happens in DAOs.

00:10:14.317 --> 00:10:15.318
And if you want the

00:10:15.339 --> 00:10:16.559
organization to function differently,

00:10:17.139 --> 00:10:18.360
you need to change the smart

00:10:18.400 --> 00:10:19.402
contracts the parameters is

00:10:19.442 --> 00:10:20.322
to wish you know how the

00:10:20.381 --> 00:10:21.342
organizations are the

00:10:21.383 --> 00:10:22.263
decisions are getting done

00:10:22.464 --> 00:10:24.384
right um I view this as

00:10:24.404 --> 00:10:25.345
being kind of a natural

00:10:25.586 --> 00:10:26.285
inevitable part of the

00:10:26.326 --> 00:10:27.746
process if someone else

00:10:27.787 --> 00:10:28.768
wants to submit the exact

00:10:28.788 --> 00:10:30.227
same proposal they can do

00:10:30.268 --> 00:10:31.269
that without the foundation

00:10:31.369 --> 00:10:32.889
right so another another

00:10:32.909 --> 00:10:34.230
you know set of individuals

00:10:34.270 --> 00:10:35.331
could propose that same

00:10:35.371 --> 00:10:36.471
thing tomorrow they don't

00:10:36.511 --> 00:10:37.893
need the foundation's uh

00:10:37.972 --> 00:10:40.394
approval to do that uh so I

00:10:40.575 --> 00:10:41.755
i see both sides of this one for sure

00:10:42.894 --> 00:10:43.274
Yeah, well,

00:10:43.294 --> 00:10:44.796
that's great if they don't need

00:10:44.936 --> 00:10:45.677
the foundation.

00:10:46.057 --> 00:10:47.197
Maybe people are just

00:10:47.238 --> 00:10:48.818
becoming too reliant on

00:10:48.859 --> 00:10:50.179
some of these centralized parties.

00:10:50.821 --> 00:10:51.941
I'll actually go right into

00:10:51.980 --> 00:10:52.881
one of the other stories of

00:10:52.902 --> 00:10:53.942
the week because it's related,

00:10:53.962 --> 00:10:55.624
and then we'll discuss a little bit more.

00:10:56.083 --> 00:10:58.265
So this one is from the Dow Times,

00:10:58.885 --> 00:10:59.687
and the headline is,

00:11:00.366 --> 00:11:02.589
the sandboxes Dow launch

00:11:02.869 --> 00:11:04.110
raises concerns over

00:11:04.210 --> 00:11:06.751
centralized control and weighted voting.

00:11:07.591 --> 00:11:09.575
So this is the sandbox,

00:11:09.615 --> 00:11:10.515
which is the metaverse,

00:11:10.716 --> 00:11:13.240
a project that was received

00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:14.140
a lot of attention,

00:11:14.221 --> 00:11:15.682
at least also a couple of

00:11:15.702 --> 00:11:17.385
years ago during the last bull run,

00:11:18.427 --> 00:11:20.109
when these little plots of

00:11:20.168 --> 00:11:23.033
land in the world of the sandbox

00:11:24.355 --> 00:11:25.657
became very valuable and you

00:11:25.697 --> 00:11:28.820
had lots of big companies, Tesla, Gucci,

00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:30.120
Nike,

00:11:30.201 --> 00:11:33.284
companies like that buying land with

00:11:33.325 --> 00:11:34.466
the hope of getting some

00:11:34.505 --> 00:11:35.726
good central real estate in

00:11:35.768 --> 00:11:37.048
this new world.

00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:40.793
And just recently,

00:11:40.932 --> 00:11:42.394
so also at the end of May,

00:11:42.835 --> 00:11:44.697
they announced the launch of their doubt.

00:11:45.738 --> 00:11:47.118
And in the launch of their DAO,

00:11:47.138 --> 00:11:48.818
which you can read more about on Medium,

00:11:48.899 --> 00:11:49.958
it's called the Sandbox DAO

00:11:49.979 --> 00:11:51.318
Vote on the Future of the Metaverse,

00:11:51.339 --> 00:11:53.259
which is the official press

00:11:53.299 --> 00:11:55.539
release post from the

00:11:55.580 --> 00:11:57.100
Sandbox about the launch of their DAO.

00:11:57.500 --> 00:11:59.421
They do talk about, for example,

00:11:59.461 --> 00:12:00.402
having these special

00:12:00.522 --> 00:12:03.221
councils as a council and a

00:12:03.282 --> 00:12:04.261
group of advisors,

00:12:04.783 --> 00:12:05.722
and that the council has

00:12:05.763 --> 00:12:08.763
the power to veto the DAO's decisions,

00:12:09.644 --> 00:12:10.344
among other things.

00:12:11.144 --> 00:12:13.024
And so I also don't think

00:12:13.044 --> 00:12:13.904
there's necessarily

00:12:13.965 --> 00:12:14.784
anything wrong with this.

00:12:14.845 --> 00:12:16.405
Look, I think every project,

00:12:16.926 --> 00:12:18.306
every initiative,

00:12:18.426 --> 00:12:21.966
every ecosystem has its own origin story.

00:12:22.528 --> 00:12:26.109
It has its own group of participants.

00:12:27.469 --> 00:12:30.591
investors, contributors, users, et cetera.

00:12:31.010 --> 00:12:32.851
It has its own culture and values.

00:12:32.871 --> 00:12:35.234
It has its own plan and strategy.

00:12:35.653 --> 00:12:36.875
And if part of that plan is

00:12:36.934 --> 00:12:38.456
to do some things in a more

00:12:38.615 --> 00:12:39.996
quote unquote centralized way,

00:12:40.017 --> 00:12:40.937
I don't think there's

00:12:40.956 --> 00:12:41.717
anything wrong with that.

00:12:41.738 --> 00:12:42.538
And whether that's through a

00:12:42.577 --> 00:12:43.719
foundation or whether

00:12:43.739 --> 00:12:45.820
that's through a council.

00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:46.740
And I think in this case,

00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:48.341
there is also a foundation again,

00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:49.381
and maybe the council will

00:12:49.402 --> 00:12:50.503
be the board of the foundation.

00:12:50.523 --> 00:12:51.043
I'm not sure.

00:12:52.124 --> 00:12:52.984
I just think it's important

00:12:53.085 --> 00:12:54.065
for people to know what

00:12:54.085 --> 00:12:54.765
they're getting into.

00:12:55.366 --> 00:12:56.307
And I guess in the case of

00:12:56.366 --> 00:12:57.028
something like this,

00:12:57.067 --> 00:12:58.068
maybe if you got into the

00:12:58.129 --> 00:12:59.070
land two years ago,

00:12:59.129 --> 00:13:00.650
you might have assumed some

00:13:00.691 --> 00:13:01.932
kind of fully democratic

00:13:04.033 --> 00:13:05.816
decision making process in your future.

00:13:06.216 --> 00:13:07.437
But I think that would have

00:13:07.456 --> 00:13:08.437
just been an assumption.

00:13:08.457 --> 00:13:09.678
And every project is

00:13:09.719 --> 00:13:10.860
different and has to decide

00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:11.880
for itself how

00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:13.062
decentralized it wants to

00:13:13.101 --> 00:13:14.923
be in the organizational regard.

00:13:15.604 --> 00:13:17.686
how distributed it wants its power to be.

00:13:17.706 --> 00:13:20.668
And if there's a couple of powerful VCs,

00:13:20.688 --> 00:13:22.070
there's a couple of powerful VCs.

00:13:22.309 --> 00:13:23.730
I don't think that's something that we can,

00:13:24.251 --> 00:13:25.972
from an outside perspective, just say, no,

00:13:25.993 --> 00:13:27.394
we don't ever want VCs or

00:13:27.674 --> 00:13:28.855
we don't ever want a council.

00:13:30.177 --> 00:13:31.077
At the same time, again,

00:13:31.097 --> 00:13:31.958
I just think it's important

00:13:31.979 --> 00:13:32.739
for people to know what

00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:33.399
they're getting into.

00:13:35.770 --> 00:13:39.013
this is a classic example of

00:13:39.452 --> 00:13:41.234
an organization that made a

00:13:41.313 --> 00:13:43.054
lot of promises and among

00:13:43.095 --> 00:13:44.355
them conversations

00:13:44.414 --> 00:13:45.216
discussions about

00:13:45.255 --> 00:13:46.696
decentralization it means a

00:13:46.735 --> 00:13:47.557
lot of things to a lot of

00:13:47.616 --> 00:13:50.398
people and ultimately when

00:13:50.418 --> 00:13:52.418
you try to uh you know play

00:13:52.438 --> 00:13:53.899
this out organizations take

00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:55.860
a long time to mature and

00:13:56.020 --> 00:13:56.640
getting to the point of

00:13:56.660 --> 00:13:58.162
decentralization is a very

00:13:58.341 --> 00:14:00.403
hard thing that requires I

00:14:00.442 --> 00:14:01.984
think a very gradual process

00:14:02.784 --> 00:14:04.245
And I think people see

00:14:04.285 --> 00:14:05.166
different time scales.

00:14:05.687 --> 00:14:06.927
And so some users wanted

00:14:06.947 --> 00:14:07.748
this instantaneously.

00:14:08.128 --> 00:14:09.048
Some users are like, hey,

00:14:09.368 --> 00:14:10.708
I understand this is a work in progress.

00:14:10.729 --> 00:14:11.669
We're going to get there eventually.

00:14:11.789 --> 00:14:12.570
But there's certain

00:14:12.629 --> 00:14:14.130
decisions that we need to

00:14:14.951 --> 00:14:16.951
delegate to the founding

00:14:16.971 --> 00:14:17.893
team and the operating team

00:14:17.913 --> 00:14:19.113
because they see the day to day.

00:14:19.212 --> 00:14:19.994
They know what's happening

00:14:20.453 --> 00:14:21.955
on the nitty gritty nuances.

00:14:22.897 --> 00:14:23.977
Does it make sense for a

00:14:24.018 --> 00:14:25.618
bunch of random people who

00:14:25.658 --> 00:14:27.219
don't know what's happening

00:14:27.239 --> 00:14:28.340
day to day to make a bulk

00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:29.899
of the decisions?

00:14:29.921 --> 00:14:32.081
This is the dirty grit of

00:14:32.201 --> 00:14:33.682
governance and of voting

00:14:33.701 --> 00:14:34.543
and of all the stuff that

00:14:35.043 --> 00:14:35.923
we're building and

00:14:35.962 --> 00:14:37.104
designing mechanisms around.

00:14:37.203 --> 00:14:39.625
But the biggest discrepancy

00:14:39.664 --> 00:14:40.605
here is the difference, I think,

00:14:40.645 --> 00:14:42.807
between what's promised.

00:14:43.147 --> 00:14:44.528
Our industry does tend to

00:14:44.668 --> 00:14:45.727
overpromise and then the

00:14:45.788 --> 00:14:47.349
delivery of that

00:14:47.389 --> 00:14:48.328
decentralization or that

00:14:48.369 --> 00:14:49.450
governance mechanism.

00:14:50.711 --> 00:14:51.530
Yeah, that's a good point.

00:14:51.551 --> 00:14:53.912
I think too, to your point,

00:14:54.631 --> 00:14:57.513
it seems like it's becoming

00:14:57.613 --> 00:14:58.994
almost a generally accepted

00:14:59.234 --> 00:15:02.274
principle that you can't

00:15:02.375 --> 00:15:04.436
start out to decentralize,

00:15:04.655 --> 00:15:05.775
that you need to start out

00:15:05.875 --> 00:15:08.336
with a bit more central control,

00:15:08.356 --> 00:15:10.538
a bit more hierarchy,

00:15:10.638 --> 00:15:12.217
a bit more coordination to

00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:15.399
be successful at the early stages,

00:15:15.418 --> 00:15:16.360
that you can't just like

00:15:17.413 --> 00:15:18.033
quickly,

00:15:18.413 --> 00:15:20.714
haphazardly give control over a

00:15:20.774 --> 00:15:23.475
protocol or a project to the community.

00:15:23.495 --> 00:15:26.735
And people are talking about

00:15:26.775 --> 00:15:27.275
progressive

00:15:27.316 --> 00:15:29.376
decentralization and that kind of thing.

00:15:30.258 --> 00:15:32.057
Is that always true?

00:15:32.077 --> 00:15:33.859
I mean, from your perspective,

00:15:34.219 --> 00:15:35.818
is it always bad to

00:15:35.859 --> 00:15:38.519
decentralize too soon or upfront?

00:15:38.860 --> 00:15:40.301
Or are there some scenarios

00:15:40.341 --> 00:15:42.741
where you actually can start out with

00:15:43.625 --> 00:15:43.785
I mean,

00:15:43.806 --> 00:15:45.605
what about like ConstitutionDAO

00:15:45.686 --> 00:15:46.447
comes to mind, right?

00:15:46.486 --> 00:15:47.667
You guys went, I don't know,

00:15:47.907 --> 00:15:48.947
was it tens of thousands or

00:15:48.986 --> 00:15:49.787
hundreds of thousands of

00:15:49.826 --> 00:15:51.868
members in like two or three days?

00:15:52.607 --> 00:15:54.148
And so did that cause any

00:15:54.168 --> 00:15:55.389
problems or where did that

00:15:55.448 --> 00:15:56.668
leave you on this issue?

00:15:57.749 --> 00:15:57.969
Yeah.

00:15:58.990 --> 00:16:01.049
So there's a lot of different use cases,

00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:01.250
right?

00:16:01.330 --> 00:16:02.190
Something like Bitcoin

00:16:02.590 --> 00:16:04.171
that's designed to be

00:16:04.191 --> 00:16:06.931
immutable from the onset.

00:16:07.272 --> 00:16:08.532
Great, let's start decentralized.

00:16:08.672 --> 00:16:09.831
And the sooner you can decentralize,

00:16:09.851 --> 00:16:10.152
the better.

00:16:10.231 --> 00:16:12.052
Like there's nothing to govern.

00:16:12.072 --> 00:16:13.192
There's no decisions to be made.

00:16:14.115 --> 00:16:16.317
Constitution Dao was a great

00:16:16.337 --> 00:16:17.197
example of something where

00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:19.279
the contributions, the donations,

00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:20.941
could and should be broad-based.

00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:22.182
The participants could and

00:16:22.241 --> 00:16:23.123
should be broad-based.

00:16:23.803 --> 00:16:24.923
But then when you start

00:16:24.943 --> 00:16:26.426
getting to that nitty-gritty detail,

00:16:26.686 --> 00:16:27.947
right, if we won the auction,

00:16:28.326 --> 00:16:29.187
who's the person who

00:16:29.447 --> 00:16:31.308
actually shows up and

00:16:31.528 --> 00:16:33.270
receives the document?

00:16:33.791 --> 00:16:34.672
Who's in charge of

00:16:34.812 --> 00:16:36.592
delivering it to the museum?

00:16:36.633 --> 00:16:38.115
Who's in charge of finding

00:16:38.215 --> 00:16:40.316
the group that needs to do

00:16:40.336 --> 00:16:41.476
some of the maintenance and

00:16:41.517 --> 00:16:42.618
restoration of documents,

00:16:42.638 --> 00:16:43.639
the preservation work, right?

00:16:44.389 --> 00:16:45.068
These things don't need to

00:16:45.109 --> 00:16:46.269
be gigantic group votes.

00:16:46.649 --> 00:16:48.070
And so this is where you

00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:49.150
have to make a separation

00:16:49.171 --> 00:16:50.811
between what are operating

00:16:51.030 --> 00:16:52.111
responsibilities that are

00:16:52.152 --> 00:16:53.552
likely delegated and what

00:16:53.572 --> 00:16:55.092
are governing decisions, right?

00:16:55.352 --> 00:16:55.832
In our case,

00:16:55.972 --> 00:16:57.072
a governing decision might

00:16:57.092 --> 00:16:57.933
have been something like, hey,

00:16:58.354 --> 00:17:00.433
here's three proposals for

00:17:00.453 --> 00:17:01.514
where to put this document.

00:17:02.475 --> 00:17:03.235
Which one do you want?

00:17:03.254 --> 00:17:05.195
And then allowing the community to govern.

00:17:05.836 --> 00:17:07.076
The operations should

00:17:07.116 --> 00:17:07.936
probably be delegated.

00:17:09.746 --> 00:17:10.205
Interesting.

00:17:10.506 --> 00:17:10.787
Yeah.

00:17:11.968 --> 00:17:12.949
So to answer your question,

00:17:13.189 --> 00:17:14.069
it depends on the organization.

00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:15.530
If there's no operations to be done,

00:17:16.191 --> 00:17:19.013
if Bitcoin has no work that

00:17:19.094 --> 00:17:20.996
has to be done by a central group,

00:17:21.596 --> 00:17:22.596
let it be decentralized.

00:17:23.117 --> 00:17:25.579
I also think there's a

00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:26.460
misconception that things

00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.982
need to go small, messy,

00:17:29.303 --> 00:17:31.464
and decentralized to like, wow,

00:17:31.484 --> 00:17:32.665
this is clean and

00:17:32.726 --> 00:17:33.807
decentralized and we all

00:17:33.846 --> 00:17:34.528
like how this goes.

00:17:34.907 --> 00:17:35.969
You can also start off

00:17:36.692 --> 00:17:38.634
you know, centralized, structured,

00:17:39.115 --> 00:17:40.416
and then, you know,

00:17:41.057 --> 00:17:42.858
let out powers as you go.

00:17:42.878 --> 00:17:45.721
I think the biggest conflict

00:17:45.741 --> 00:17:46.883
of interest you run into is

00:17:48.025 --> 00:17:48.845
that is that group going to

00:17:48.865 --> 00:17:50.326
continue to execute against

00:17:50.346 --> 00:17:51.448
the plan that they promised?

00:17:51.909 --> 00:17:53.230
And then how do you assure that?

00:17:54.792 --> 00:17:55.673
Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's,

00:17:56.232 --> 00:17:57.673
in some ways, a risk either way, right?

00:17:57.713 --> 00:17:58.894
Either the community is

00:17:58.933 --> 00:18:00.334
taking the risk that

00:18:00.354 --> 00:18:01.134
they're trusting the

00:18:01.173 --> 00:18:02.694
central team to continue

00:18:02.815 --> 00:18:03.914
operating as they promised,

00:18:04.634 --> 00:18:07.076
or if the central team is

00:18:07.096 --> 00:18:08.115
giving power to the community,

00:18:08.135 --> 00:18:08.976
they're taking the risk

00:18:08.996 --> 00:18:09.855
that the community might

00:18:09.895 --> 00:18:11.957
decide to go in a different direction.

00:18:12.596 --> 00:18:14.557
It seems like maybe neither

00:18:14.656 --> 00:18:18.018
is necessarily better, just different,

00:18:18.038 --> 00:18:18.998
it's just a different risk.

00:18:20.318 --> 00:18:22.019
Yeah, but Talc has this...

00:18:22.978 --> 00:18:24.397
really great blog post where

00:18:24.458 --> 00:18:27.118
he talks about concave

00:18:27.138 --> 00:18:28.959
decisions and convex decisions.

00:18:29.459 --> 00:18:30.519
And what this boils down to

00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:31.599
is there's some types of

00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.259
decisions that groups,

00:18:33.460 --> 00:18:34.560
large democratic bodies

00:18:34.861 --> 00:18:36.240
might be very good at doing.

00:18:36.560 --> 00:18:37.201
So, for example,

00:18:37.701 --> 00:18:39.622
markets pricing things are

00:18:39.682 --> 00:18:40.922
actually quite relatively

00:18:40.961 --> 00:18:43.522
efficient at finding a good

00:18:43.863 --> 00:18:44.742
market clearing price.

00:18:45.435 --> 00:18:46.757
versus there might be some

00:18:46.797 --> 00:18:48.797
decisions that need to be binary.

00:18:48.817 --> 00:18:49.538
Do we do with this?

00:18:49.718 --> 00:18:52.199
Do we go with option A or option B?

00:18:52.219 --> 00:18:53.479
And this might be something

00:18:53.499 --> 00:18:54.980
that's required for legal expertise,

00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:55.539
for example, right?

00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:56.861
If an organization needs to

00:18:56.901 --> 00:18:57.780
have a legal structure,

00:18:57.800 --> 00:18:58.942
do you want to vote on that?

00:18:59.342 --> 00:19:00.142
Or do you want to say, all right,

00:19:00.162 --> 00:19:01.222
this is a really smart lawyer.

00:19:01.242 --> 00:19:02.923
We're going to pick him and

00:19:03.222 --> 00:19:04.624
her and let her make a

00:19:04.663 --> 00:19:05.723
decision for what might be

00:19:05.784 --> 00:19:06.644
right for the organization.

00:19:06.984 --> 00:19:07.704
So you've got these

00:19:07.785 --> 00:19:09.185
different types of

00:19:10.306 --> 00:19:12.906
decisions and that's where

00:19:13.007 --> 00:19:14.167
I think stuff starts breaking down.

00:19:15.571 --> 00:19:16.292
Yeah, it's interesting.

00:19:16.313 --> 00:19:18.875
I almost feel like even at

00:19:19.135 --> 00:19:20.156
times over the past few

00:19:20.196 --> 00:19:23.660
years in my time as a DAO professional,

00:19:25.261 --> 00:19:26.083
I've at times

00:19:26.143 --> 00:19:27.463
conceptualized DAOs as

00:19:27.703 --> 00:19:28.925
really just being for the

00:19:28.965 --> 00:19:29.685
governance layer.

00:19:30.648 --> 00:19:31.650
And then maybe everything

00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:32.609
else should be done the

00:19:32.650 --> 00:19:33.871
same way it's always been done.

00:19:34.010 --> 00:19:35.051
So maybe, again,

00:19:35.352 --> 00:19:37.053
instead of a shareholders and a board,

00:19:37.113 --> 00:19:37.993
maybe you have the DAO.

00:19:38.554 --> 00:19:40.796
And the DAO maybe should elect a CEO,

00:19:40.955 --> 00:19:42.836
maybe should elect a whole

00:19:42.876 --> 00:19:44.298
management team and go from there.

00:19:44.637 --> 00:19:45.499
But I feel like a lot of

00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:46.579
what people are working on

00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:47.859
in the DAO industry is

00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.482
actually ways of doing the work

00:19:52.103 --> 00:19:55.285
in a more decentralized way in DAOs.

00:19:55.865 --> 00:19:57.787
And not just saying it's

00:19:57.807 --> 00:19:58.968
just for the governance layer,

00:19:59.028 --> 00:19:59.729
but it's for everything.

00:19:59.749 --> 00:20:02.931
We want to be open to new

00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:04.832
people joining anytime and

00:20:05.272 --> 00:20:06.354
letting anyone in the world

00:20:06.433 --> 00:20:09.516
contribute to strategy, planning,

00:20:09.836 --> 00:20:11.257
the actual work that gets done.

00:20:11.277 --> 00:20:12.938
I wonder

00:20:14.019 --> 00:20:15.940
I wonder where the DAO really is.

00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:17.520
Is it really just meant for

00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:18.842
the governance layer or is

00:20:18.902 --> 00:20:19.662
it going to change

00:20:20.262 --> 00:20:21.343
everything about the way we

00:20:21.423 --> 00:20:23.064
operate organizations?

00:20:25.525 --> 00:20:27.567
I've actually stopped using

00:20:27.586 --> 00:20:29.847
the word DAO by default.

00:20:30.968 --> 00:20:32.628
The main reason being is I think DAO,

00:20:32.670 --> 00:20:35.291
decentralized autonomous organization,

00:20:35.971 --> 00:20:39.315
is a specific model of a

00:20:39.375 --> 00:20:40.215
broader category.

00:20:40.395 --> 00:20:41.237
That broader category is

00:20:41.457 --> 00:20:42.597
on-chain organizations.

00:20:43.137 --> 00:20:43.878
I think we're going to see a

00:20:43.919 --> 00:20:44.699
massive amount of

00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:46.901
organizational diversity,

00:20:47.260 --> 00:20:48.342
organizational approaches,

00:20:48.803 --> 00:20:49.762
governance approaches,

00:20:50.104 --> 00:20:50.963
governance structures,

00:20:51.045 --> 00:20:51.845
management structures,

00:20:51.944 --> 00:20:52.746
operating structures.

00:20:53.066 --> 00:20:53.926
All these things are very different.

00:20:54.789 --> 00:20:56.351
Protocol DAOs are just one

00:20:56.471 --> 00:20:57.652
very specific vertical.

00:20:58.112 --> 00:20:59.772
And I think a DAO is a good

00:20:59.833 --> 00:21:00.913
model for managing a

00:21:00.953 --> 00:21:01.875
protocol that every once in

00:21:01.894 --> 00:21:02.615
a while needs to decide,

00:21:03.055 --> 00:21:03.736
should we upgrade?

00:21:03.756 --> 00:21:05.096
Should we turn on a fee switch?

00:21:06.037 --> 00:21:07.317
That same model might not be

00:21:07.337 --> 00:21:08.479
applicable to lots of other things.

00:21:08.538 --> 00:21:10.079
And that's a very important

00:21:10.099 --> 00:21:10.720
core tenet of mine.

00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:11.621
I think it's easy for the

00:21:11.641 --> 00:21:12.520
crypto industry to get into

00:21:12.540 --> 00:21:14.001
this echo chamber groupthink.

00:21:14.382 --> 00:21:14.742
Everyone starts

00:21:14.803 --> 00:21:16.344
regurgitating the same ideas of, oh,

00:21:16.364 --> 00:21:16.943
it has to be flat,

00:21:16.963 --> 00:21:17.744
it has to be decentralized.

00:21:18.144 --> 00:21:18.984
Not everything, right?

00:21:19.005 --> 00:21:20.226
Not every organization needs to be.

00:21:20.726 --> 00:21:21.707
Some could, some do.

00:21:24.087 --> 00:21:25.608
And I do think that generally speaking,

00:21:25.689 --> 00:21:27.970
the ethos of Web3 and the

00:21:28.109 --> 00:21:29.269
ethos of decentralization

00:21:29.309 --> 00:21:30.810
is creeping into organizations of, okay,

00:21:30.830 --> 00:21:30.951
well,

00:21:30.990 --> 00:21:35.893
how do we allow a wider group of

00:21:35.952 --> 00:21:37.713
stakeholders to actually have input?

00:21:37.834 --> 00:21:38.554
Or how should we be getting

00:21:38.634 --> 00:21:39.634
input from our customers

00:21:39.714 --> 00:21:41.115
into decision-making?

00:21:41.155 --> 00:21:42.115
How do we get input from our

00:21:42.355 --> 00:21:43.297
employees and teammates

00:21:43.376 --> 00:21:44.196
into decision-making?

00:21:44.457 --> 00:21:44.777
So it's, I think,

00:21:44.817 --> 00:21:45.938
that ethos creep that's

00:21:45.998 --> 00:21:46.597
equally important.

00:21:47.951 --> 00:21:48.893
Yeah, it's a good point.

00:21:48.913 --> 00:21:49.093
I mean,

00:21:49.113 --> 00:21:50.554
even if I think about like big

00:21:50.614 --> 00:21:51.996
Fortune 500 companies that

00:21:52.036 --> 00:21:52.896
are looking at how do we

00:21:53.017 --> 00:21:55.298
use NFTs and maybe DAOs to

00:21:55.358 --> 00:21:56.380
engage our customer base

00:21:56.420 --> 00:21:57.740
better by giving them some

00:21:57.961 --> 00:21:59.001
control over something.

00:22:00.903 --> 00:22:02.224
And yeah, it's interesting.

00:22:02.244 --> 00:22:02.424
You know,

00:22:02.444 --> 00:22:04.346
I'm so attached to the word DAO because,

00:22:04.787 --> 00:22:06.088
well, if nothing else,

00:22:06.148 --> 00:22:06.989
it's in the name of my

00:22:07.028 --> 00:22:08.210
podcast and my company.

00:22:08.230 --> 00:22:08.310
Yeah.

00:22:09.151 --> 00:22:10.492
So I might have to stick

00:22:10.532 --> 00:22:11.333
with it for a while.

00:22:12.513 --> 00:22:15.237
But I can see the philosophical,

00:22:15.696 --> 00:22:16.337
what's interesting

00:22:16.377 --> 00:22:18.941
philosophically about really looking at,

00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:19.181
hey,

00:22:19.461 --> 00:22:22.423
are these really DAOs or is digital

00:22:22.463 --> 00:22:23.765
organizations really the

00:22:24.065 --> 00:22:25.346
core innovation here?

00:22:26.528 --> 00:22:28.108
So I think it's a worthwhile

00:22:28.169 --> 00:22:28.950
conversation to have.

00:22:28.970 --> 00:22:29.790
Yeah.

00:22:30.731 --> 00:22:30.971
Let's,

00:22:31.573 --> 00:22:33.915
let's turn to the next story of the week.

00:22:34.757 --> 00:22:37.361
This one is from the Dow times as well.

00:22:37.981 --> 00:22:39.723
And the headline is Dow

00:22:39.824 --> 00:22:41.506
acceleration is a movement

00:22:41.686 --> 00:22:42.607
aims to advance

00:22:42.827 --> 00:22:44.569
decentralized organizations.

00:22:45.696 --> 00:22:47.317
So this article is about a

00:22:47.577 --> 00:22:51.700
group called DAO Accelerationism,

00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:54.882
or DAOAC, or actually DAO-G for DAO OGs.

00:22:55.722 --> 00:22:58.203
And it's a group of people

00:22:58.243 --> 00:22:59.825
that has organized a series

00:22:59.924 --> 00:23:01.405
of events and content over

00:23:01.425 --> 00:23:02.526
the past couple of years,

00:23:02.926 --> 00:23:03.606
somewhat loosely,

00:23:03.646 --> 00:23:05.048
it's kind of different groups of people.

00:23:05.087 --> 00:23:08.190
There's been DAOcember, DAOspring,

00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:10.070
there's the DAO Handbook,

00:23:11.030 --> 00:23:13.071
and uh and I think they're

00:23:13.092 --> 00:23:14.292
also connected to the group

00:23:14.333 --> 00:23:16.653
that does uh metafest which

00:23:16.713 --> 00:23:18.134
is a big dao event that's

00:23:18.174 --> 00:23:19.336
coming back for the third

00:23:19.355 --> 00:23:20.757
year after after a year off

00:23:21.436 --> 00:23:23.938
um and uh so this group is

00:23:24.038 --> 00:23:25.118
kind of coalescing around a

00:23:25.159 --> 00:23:26.119
new name they're going to

00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:27.259
do a token launch there's a

00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:31.201
dow g token and probably an

00:23:31.342 --> 00:23:33.284
nft sale and then use the

00:23:33.324 --> 00:23:34.183
proceeds from all these

00:23:34.223 --> 00:23:35.444
sales to help drive

00:23:36.085 --> 00:23:37.467
further progress across this

00:23:37.906 --> 00:23:39.148
kind of decentralized or

00:23:39.189 --> 00:23:40.569
headless brand that has

00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:41.431
these various events.

00:23:41.912 --> 00:23:43.794
So I bring this up just to let people know,

00:23:44.013 --> 00:23:44.934
if anything, you know,

00:23:44.974 --> 00:23:47.136
maybe go follow Dowspring

00:23:47.857 --> 00:23:49.900
on X. It's actually the

00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:51.281
handle is Dowsember and the

00:23:51.321 --> 00:23:53.304
name changes from Dowspring to Dowsember.

00:23:53.723 --> 00:23:54.826
depending on the time of year.

00:23:54.846 --> 00:23:57.829
But there's lots of great DAO content.

00:23:58.451 --> 00:23:59.813
And for any DAO OGs that

00:23:59.833 --> 00:24:00.653
want to get involved with

00:24:00.673 --> 00:24:02.155
helping out with a project like that,

00:24:02.175 --> 00:24:03.758
it is also a DAO that's

00:24:03.798 --> 00:24:04.940
going to be doing all this stuff.

00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:06.321
So I recommend checking it out.

00:24:06.342 --> 00:24:08.124
I don't know if there's much

00:24:08.163 --> 00:24:09.125
to say on this one, Graham,

00:24:09.144 --> 00:24:10.067
but anything you want to add?

00:24:11.766 --> 00:24:13.487
They've got an awesome handbook,

00:24:13.728 --> 00:24:14.827
a lot of great information,

00:24:14.847 --> 00:24:15.989
a lot of great resources.

00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:17.390
If you're new to DAOs,

00:24:17.450 --> 00:24:18.431
it's a great place to start reading.

00:24:19.471 --> 00:24:19.771
Awesome.

00:24:19.971 --> 00:24:20.272
Love it.

00:24:21.594 --> 00:24:21.894
All right.

00:24:22.714 --> 00:24:23.835
Next story of the week.

00:24:23.976 --> 00:24:25.616
This one is from the Block Tribune.

00:24:26.396 --> 00:24:27.238
And the headline is

00:24:28.098 --> 00:24:30.500
plaintiff argues Lido DAO

00:24:30.601 --> 00:24:31.981
is subject to securities

00:24:32.041 --> 00:24:34.483
laws as an unincorporated partnership.

00:24:35.976 --> 00:24:36.316
All right.

00:24:36.616 --> 00:24:39.298
So here we have a court case.

00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.901
It's maybe the third high

00:24:41.941 --> 00:24:43.163
profile court case that I'm

00:24:43.222 --> 00:24:44.103
aware of in the United

00:24:44.143 --> 00:24:46.204
States related to DAOs,

00:24:47.286 --> 00:24:49.448
where in the past there's

00:24:49.508 --> 00:24:52.310
been different things that

00:24:52.351 --> 00:24:53.112
have gone wrong.

00:24:53.672 --> 00:24:55.574
with the DAO or allegedly gone wrong.

00:24:56.013 --> 00:24:57.276
But in all three cases,

00:24:57.816 --> 00:24:58.876
there's this similar

00:24:58.957 --> 00:25:01.680
pattern where what's being

00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.182
accused is that the DAO is

00:25:04.201 --> 00:25:05.663
an unincorporated partnership.

00:25:06.044 --> 00:25:06.805
And therefore,

00:25:06.984 --> 00:25:09.126
all of the people involved in the DAO,

00:25:09.227 --> 00:25:10.208
all the token holders

00:25:10.729 --> 00:25:11.869
should be held personally

00:25:11.910 --> 00:25:15.192
liable for whatever allegedly went wrong.

00:25:15.613 --> 00:25:17.713
which in this case is securities laws.

00:25:18.193 --> 00:25:20.494
So someone who bought the Lido token,

00:25:20.515 --> 00:25:23.295
the LDO token, and only 132 of them,

00:25:23.335 --> 00:25:24.296
I'm not sure what they're worth,

00:25:24.375 --> 00:25:26.655
but I'm assuming not a ton,

00:25:27.257 --> 00:25:28.936
lost some money, maybe 50 bucks,

00:25:29.017 --> 00:25:29.477
I'm guessing.

00:25:29.696 --> 00:25:30.758
Maybe the tokens are worth more.

00:25:31.198 --> 00:25:34.058
And now he's suing the entire DAO company

00:25:36.579 --> 00:25:38.599
which sold $3 billion worth

00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:40.661
of these tokens.

00:25:40.701 --> 00:25:41.862
I think what's interesting

00:25:41.902 --> 00:25:43.102
to me about these cases,

00:25:43.182 --> 00:25:44.583
because it aligns with the

00:25:44.623 --> 00:25:46.364
business that I'm in,

00:25:46.763 --> 00:25:49.984
is I'll just read from the article,

00:25:50.385 --> 00:25:51.586
the defendants claim

00:25:51.625 --> 00:25:53.787
LidoDAO cannot be sued as

00:25:53.826 --> 00:25:56.067
it is a non-judicial entity

00:25:56.147 --> 00:25:57.368
without legal personhood.

00:25:58.249 --> 00:25:59.390
and unfortunately what

00:25:59.809 --> 00:26:01.471
lawyers every lawyer I know

00:26:01.491 --> 00:26:03.093
in crypto and our company

00:26:03.192 --> 00:26:04.294
and me what we've been

00:26:04.314 --> 00:26:05.414
telling people for the past

00:26:05.474 --> 00:26:07.516
few years is that you don't

00:26:07.635 --> 00:26:09.718
unfortunately no one is

00:26:09.778 --> 00:26:11.358
above the law we would love

00:26:11.398 --> 00:26:12.980
to be but you just you just

00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:13.740
can't I mean look if you

00:26:13.780 --> 00:26:14.642
want to be like a

00:26:14.701 --> 00:26:16.182
censorship resistant tao

00:26:16.242 --> 00:26:17.304
that's trying to be

00:26:17.364 --> 00:26:19.846
revolutionary or subversive

00:26:19.925 --> 00:26:20.986
like yet maybe there are

00:26:21.026 --> 00:26:23.008
ways of using dao technology to do that

00:26:23.508 --> 00:26:24.809
But that's not what Lido is, right?

00:26:24.849 --> 00:26:26.352
Lido is this massive project,

00:26:26.412 --> 00:26:28.315
massive ecosystem providing

00:26:28.335 --> 00:26:29.616
a really valuable service.

00:26:30.217 --> 00:26:33.201
And frankly, for that group to say, oh,

00:26:33.721 --> 00:26:35.084
sorry, we don't really exist.

00:26:35.545 --> 00:26:36.885
It's just not going to fly in the courts.

00:26:37.446 --> 00:26:37.847
And actually,

00:26:37.867 --> 00:26:39.249
I think the case law is very

00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:40.550
clear that if you don't

00:26:41.787 --> 00:26:43.528
select a jurisdiction,

00:26:43.587 --> 00:26:45.269
if you don't select a legal entity,

00:26:45.309 --> 00:26:46.330
that actually just makes it

00:26:46.451 --> 00:26:48.471
easier for any court anywhere,

00:26:48.551 --> 00:26:49.633
including in California,

00:26:49.653 --> 00:26:50.913
which I think is where this is happening,

00:26:50.933 --> 00:26:51.714
which is probably the worst

00:26:51.755 --> 00:26:53.155
place to end up in court as

00:26:53.215 --> 00:26:54.156
a project or a crypto

00:26:54.217 --> 00:26:56.077
company can just say, oh, well,

00:26:56.137 --> 00:26:56.798
you didn't choose the

00:26:56.838 --> 00:26:57.798
jurisdiction and you have

00:26:57.919 --> 00:26:58.980
at least one person in

00:26:59.019 --> 00:27:01.082
California and you didn't

00:27:01.122 --> 00:27:02.143
choose a legal entity.

00:27:02.182 --> 00:27:03.304
So we're going to call you a

00:27:03.804 --> 00:27:04.625
general partnership.

00:27:06.125 --> 00:27:08.326
And so unfortunately here,

00:27:08.486 --> 00:27:09.425
and now I wouldn't be

00:27:09.465 --> 00:27:11.826
surprised if this is not the whole story.

00:27:11.967 --> 00:27:13.127
Maybe there's some nuance here.

00:27:13.147 --> 00:27:15.248
I think Lido must have some

00:27:15.307 --> 00:27:16.608
legal entities involved,

00:27:16.909 --> 00:27:17.969
but maybe it never wrapped

00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:18.890
the DAO per se.

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:20.529
Maybe it said, hey, we have a foundation,

00:27:20.549 --> 00:27:21.450
we have a lab co,

00:27:21.711 --> 00:27:22.611
but the DAO is this

00:27:22.691 --> 00:27:24.050
non-judicial entity and you

00:27:24.111 --> 00:27:25.652
can't hold them responsible for anything.

00:27:26.311 --> 00:27:26.912
And unfortunately,

00:27:26.932 --> 00:27:28.032
I think that part at least

00:27:28.192 --> 00:27:28.853
is not going to fly.

00:27:31.913 --> 00:27:33.414
I think that this brings up

00:27:33.914 --> 00:27:34.976
the proper difference

00:27:34.996 --> 00:27:36.757
between what's the legal

00:27:37.238 --> 00:27:39.199
definition of decentralization.

00:27:39.239 --> 00:27:39.858
A lot of people,

00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:41.800
a lot of organizations

00:27:42.201 --> 00:27:43.261
operate under what I

00:27:43.301 --> 00:27:44.241
described as the guise of

00:27:44.323 --> 00:27:45.722
decentralization theater.

00:27:46.223 --> 00:27:47.345
Oh yeah, we're decentralized.

00:27:47.365 --> 00:27:48.085
Yeah, we're down.

00:27:48.125 --> 00:27:48.965
No, there's no one involved.

00:27:49.905 --> 00:27:50.886
It's totally flat, whatever.

00:27:50.906 --> 00:27:54.809
And effectively, actually decentralized,

00:27:54.869 --> 00:27:54.990
right?

00:27:55.757 --> 00:27:57.176
You can't sue Bitcoin, right?

00:27:57.938 --> 00:28:00.137
Go try to place a lawsuit on

00:28:00.458 --> 00:28:02.278
creators of Bitcoin or the

00:28:02.298 --> 00:28:04.259
creators of Ethereum or Ethereum holders.

00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:04.980
At this point,

00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:06.839
they're now actually decentralized.

00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:08.280
There is no entity.

00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:09.381
There is no group to go to.

00:28:09.441 --> 00:28:10.080
You couldn't make a good

00:28:10.141 --> 00:28:11.582
argument that even Ethereum

00:28:11.622 --> 00:28:13.582
Foundation is running Ethereum.

00:28:13.721 --> 00:28:14.083
Not at all.

00:28:14.542 --> 00:28:15.282
So far from it.

00:28:15.722 --> 00:28:16.523
And I think the thing is,

00:28:16.604 --> 00:28:17.944
if you do have people involved,

00:28:18.385 --> 00:28:19.866
you need to have an entity

00:28:19.946 --> 00:28:21.048
that limits your liability.

00:28:21.387 --> 00:28:22.489
It's good and it's fine.

00:28:22.528 --> 00:28:22.789
Of course,

00:28:22.809 --> 00:28:23.730
there needs to be people

00:28:23.750 --> 00:28:24.550
involved in some of these things,

00:28:24.991 --> 00:28:25.992
but just don't leave

00:28:26.012 --> 00:28:27.733
yourself exposed from a legal standpoint.

00:28:28.013 --> 00:28:29.195
Listen to your lawyers, do the basics.

00:28:30.135 --> 00:28:31.277
Yep, totally.

00:28:31.297 --> 00:28:32.919
So that'll be really

00:28:32.959 --> 00:28:34.099
interesting to follow both

00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:35.520
from the securities laws

00:28:35.580 --> 00:28:37.884
perspective and this issue

00:28:37.943 --> 00:28:40.025
of DAOs and legal entities.

00:28:41.016 --> 00:28:42.939
The next story of the week.

00:28:42.979 --> 00:28:44.259
This one is from Coindesk.

00:28:44.881 --> 00:28:46.442
And the headline is Crypto

00:28:46.502 --> 00:28:48.305
Governance Advisory Metalex

00:28:48.525 --> 00:28:50.788
Raises $2.75 Million.

00:28:51.347 --> 00:28:52.809
Gabriel Shapiro Wants to

00:28:52.930 --> 00:28:54.751
Borgify Crypto Governance.

00:28:55.694 --> 00:28:57.076
A couple of bullet points here.

00:28:57.375 --> 00:28:58.375
Prominent crypto lawyer

00:28:58.435 --> 00:28:59.817
Gabriel Shapiro's Metalex

00:28:59.876 --> 00:29:01.596
raised $2.75 million at a

00:29:01.596 --> 00:29:03.498
$27.5 million valuation.

00:29:03.877 --> 00:29:05.118
The project is building new

00:29:05.179 --> 00:29:06.219
governance standards for

00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:08.519
crypto groups to use when decentralizing.

00:29:09.260 --> 00:29:10.461
So for anyone who doesn't know,

00:29:10.881 --> 00:29:12.582
this concept that Gabriel

00:29:12.622 --> 00:29:13.662
Shapiro has been promoting

00:29:13.701 --> 00:29:14.383
called the BORG.

00:29:15.343 --> 00:29:16.903
has been flying around for

00:29:16.963 --> 00:29:18.265
maybe six to 12 months now.

00:29:18.826 --> 00:29:21.007
And really the idea is just to,

00:29:21.907 --> 00:29:23.189
it's kind of a legal concept,

00:29:23.209 --> 00:29:25.711
which is to say, look, a lot of DAOs,

00:29:25.750 --> 00:29:26.931
really a lot of crypto

00:29:27.011 --> 00:29:28.853
ecosystems should not just

00:29:28.913 --> 00:29:30.054
pick one entity.

00:29:30.413 --> 00:29:31.414
They should think about

00:29:31.714 --> 00:29:33.615
being what he describes as a Borg,

00:29:33.635 --> 00:29:34.576
which is many different

00:29:34.636 --> 00:29:35.938
entities that are all connected.

00:29:36.397 --> 00:29:37.959
And so maybe your DAO has

00:29:38.118 --> 00:29:40.320
five councils or committees.

00:29:40.681 --> 00:29:41.682
Maybe each of those should

00:29:41.721 --> 00:29:42.761
have a legal entity that's

00:29:42.801 --> 00:29:43.522
fit for purpose.

00:29:43.962 --> 00:29:46.345
And then maybe the head of

00:29:46.404 --> 00:29:47.585
the DAO has a legal entity.

00:29:47.625 --> 00:29:48.246
Maybe it doesn't.

00:29:49.527 --> 00:29:50.326
So I believe they're

00:29:50.346 --> 00:29:51.367
building both legal

00:29:51.407 --> 00:29:52.909
framework and some software

00:29:52.929 --> 00:29:55.130
around this concept.

00:29:55.871 --> 00:29:56.830
And Graham,

00:29:56.851 --> 00:29:57.711
this should be good news for

00:29:57.751 --> 00:29:59.432
both of us as founders in a

00:29:59.512 --> 00:30:02.355
similar space that fellow

00:30:02.375 --> 00:30:03.695
founders getting some good funding.

00:30:04.336 --> 00:30:05.917
and excited to see what what

00:30:05.958 --> 00:30:07.278
they do with with the borg

00:30:07.378 --> 00:30:09.760
plus it's a cool name um so

00:30:09.881 --> 00:30:10.701
any thoughts on this one

00:30:10.721 --> 00:30:13.304
graham yeah it's a

00:30:13.544 --> 00:30:15.085
directionally great for the

00:30:15.224 --> 00:30:16.865
industry I think what the

00:30:16.905 --> 00:30:19.949
the broader gist that that

00:30:20.209 --> 00:30:21.089
gabe is getting at with

00:30:21.130 --> 00:30:22.711
what he's building is there

00:30:22.730 --> 00:30:23.511
needs to be greater

00:30:24.324 --> 00:30:25.703
organizational diversity.

00:30:26.144 --> 00:30:27.224
There needs to be more types

00:30:27.285 --> 00:30:28.325
of approaches towards how

00:30:28.365 --> 00:30:29.684
we build and structure and

00:30:29.724 --> 00:30:30.486
manage these entities.

00:30:30.905 --> 00:30:31.566
That's a good thing.

00:30:33.326 --> 00:30:34.666
I'm never going to look down

00:30:34.846 --> 00:30:37.207
on new ways of trying to do these things.

00:30:37.287 --> 00:30:38.827
And Gabe's a smart guy.

00:30:38.847 --> 00:30:39.768
He's well connected in the industry.

00:30:39.788 --> 00:30:40.508
And I think it's going to be

00:30:40.567 --> 00:30:43.788
a really interesting set of efforts.

00:30:43.828 --> 00:30:45.148
A lot of what he's working

00:30:45.189 --> 00:30:46.130
on that the article might

00:30:46.190 --> 00:30:47.069
not have mentioned is this

00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:48.029
kind of intersection

00:30:48.049 --> 00:30:50.451
between the legal and the

00:30:50.530 --> 00:30:51.730
smart contract side of things.

00:30:52.191 --> 00:30:53.511
And there's this, I mean,

00:30:53.573 --> 00:30:54.432
interesting intersection.

00:30:54.492 --> 00:30:56.355
A lot of it gets gray in a legal sense,

00:30:56.756 --> 00:30:57.957
but there's also interesting, you know,

00:30:58.196 --> 00:30:59.178
philosophical questions

00:30:59.198 --> 00:31:01.099
that you have to ask and something that,

00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:01.599
you know,

00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:03.001
Gabe finds himself at the center

00:31:03.082 --> 00:31:04.762
of many debates and questions on is,

00:31:05.064 --> 00:31:06.085
you know, is code law?

00:31:06.184 --> 00:31:06.825
Is it not law?

00:31:06.865 --> 00:31:07.105
Where,

00:31:07.205 --> 00:31:09.067
where are those lines actually drawn?

00:31:09.087 --> 00:31:10.308
And, and,

00:31:11.069 --> 00:31:11.951
there needs to be more

00:31:11.990 --> 00:31:13.412
experimentation with how

00:31:13.451 --> 00:31:14.893
can you push jurisdictions

00:31:14.953 --> 00:31:17.075
and areas to recognize the

00:31:17.115 --> 00:31:18.396
code that is written or the

00:31:18.436 --> 00:31:20.117
code that is agreed upon as

00:31:20.238 --> 00:31:21.779
being the final say as

00:31:21.859 --> 00:31:23.221
opposed to having some type

00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:24.682
of other social contract a

00:31:24.882 --> 00:31:26.202
law agreement an off-chain

00:31:26.223 --> 00:31:27.223
agreement that might

00:31:27.263 --> 00:31:28.865
actually supersede that so

00:31:28.885 --> 00:31:29.866
another form of

00:31:29.906 --> 00:31:30.928
experimentation I'm

00:31:31.087 --> 00:31:31.949
certainly excited about it

00:31:32.568 --> 00:31:34.029
um and I think good things

00:31:34.049 --> 00:31:36.112
ahead yep that's awesome

00:31:36.311 --> 00:31:37.894
yeah so is code law

00:31:43.836 --> 00:31:44.356
I don't think so.

00:31:44.517 --> 00:31:44.676
No.

00:31:45.376 --> 00:31:47.377
So, so in my mind, in my mind,

00:31:47.617 --> 00:31:51.238
law is a social contract, right?

00:31:53.118 --> 00:31:54.318
Constitution actually, right?

00:31:54.398 --> 00:31:54.959
Great example, right?

00:31:55.179 --> 00:31:56.098
It's the most important

00:31:56.199 --> 00:31:57.640
social contract in America

00:31:57.799 --> 00:31:59.279
and all of their laws come

00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:00.420
as a result of that.

00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:01.240
The laws that Congress

00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:02.121
passes are only able to be

00:32:02.161 --> 00:32:02.961
passed because the

00:32:02.980 --> 00:32:04.280
constitution gives power to Congress.

00:32:04.721 --> 00:32:05.500
The powers that,

00:32:05.681 --> 00:32:07.362
or the laws that states and

00:32:07.382 --> 00:32:08.321
municipalities pass only

00:32:08.362 --> 00:32:09.221
have powers because

00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:11.893
The Constitution gives them powers.

00:32:11.952 --> 00:32:12.634
All these things are just

00:32:12.894 --> 00:32:13.836
social agreements, right?

00:32:14.037 --> 00:32:14.878
The Constitution has power

00:32:14.898 --> 00:32:16.201
because I live in a society

00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:17.083
and agree that we're all

00:32:17.123 --> 00:32:21.009
going to follow the rules of that order.

00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:22.980
Smart contracts are

00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:23.819
different because they can

00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:25.780
actually mechanically enforce something,

00:32:25.840 --> 00:32:26.741
regardless of whatever a

00:32:26.821 --> 00:32:28.242
social contract somewhere says.

00:32:28.762 --> 00:32:29.983
If we both put money into an

00:32:30.064 --> 00:32:32.184
escrow account and

00:32:32.486 --> 00:32:33.326
programmatically under a

00:32:33.385 --> 00:32:34.047
certain condition,

00:32:34.126 --> 00:32:34.767
you get the money or

00:32:34.807 --> 00:32:35.847
programmatically I get the money,

00:32:36.347 --> 00:32:38.209
it doesn't matter what a

00:32:38.288 --> 00:32:39.309
social contract says,

00:32:39.349 --> 00:32:40.131
what I think should happen,

00:32:40.171 --> 00:32:40.931
what you think should happen.

00:32:41.230 --> 00:32:41.951
The code is going to get

00:32:42.051 --> 00:32:43.752
executed exactly as it's written.

00:32:45.071 --> 00:32:46.212
and the more that we can

00:32:46.252 --> 00:32:48.034
align our expectations our

00:32:48.134 --> 00:32:49.855
social expectations with

00:32:50.076 --> 00:32:51.636
that mechanical enforcement

00:32:52.116 --> 00:32:52.857
the better it's going to be

00:32:52.897 --> 00:32:54.199
for you and me and for

00:32:54.239 --> 00:32:55.160
society because then we

00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:56.260
don't have disagreements we

00:32:56.280 --> 00:32:57.761
have less discrepancies the

00:32:57.781 --> 00:32:58.602
more we can align those

00:32:58.642 --> 00:33:00.084
things the better but the

00:33:00.104 --> 00:33:01.404
two are currently not the

00:33:01.424 --> 00:33:04.067
same yeah and I think you

00:33:04.106 --> 00:33:05.407
know one way of looking at

00:33:05.468 --> 00:33:07.028
it too is that in some ways

00:33:07.548 --> 00:33:09.431
these smart contracts this code

00:33:10.548 --> 00:33:13.550
There is automating part of contracts,

00:33:14.111 --> 00:33:15.172
but no one would have even

00:33:15.231 --> 00:33:17.712
said that contracts are law, right?

00:33:17.772 --> 00:33:19.974
Contracts are made between

00:33:20.035 --> 00:33:22.875
people within a legal framework,

00:33:22.915 --> 00:33:25.317
a social contract, et cetera.

00:33:25.877 --> 00:33:27.098
And contracts have to be

00:33:27.179 --> 00:33:28.640
legal to be enforced.

00:33:28.700 --> 00:33:29.901
I guess that's where the difference is,

00:33:29.961 --> 00:33:30.121
right?

00:33:30.181 --> 00:33:31.642
If you write a regular

00:33:31.701 --> 00:33:33.002
contract that's illegal,

00:33:33.502 --> 00:33:34.884
someone will try to reverse it.

00:33:34.943 --> 00:33:36.183
If you write a smart contract,

00:33:36.223 --> 00:33:37.085
that's illegal.

00:33:37.289 --> 00:33:39.392
I guess still people may try

00:33:39.432 --> 00:33:40.032
to reverse it.

00:33:40.653 --> 00:33:42.355
So it's clearly smart

00:33:42.394 --> 00:33:44.217
contracts live within the

00:33:44.257 --> 00:33:46.900
legal world and the legal system,

00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:48.601
just like regular contracts do.

00:33:49.162 --> 00:33:50.103
So I think it's risky to

00:33:50.163 --> 00:33:51.403
think that code is a law,

00:33:51.604 --> 00:33:53.425
even though it's connected.

00:33:55.107 --> 00:33:55.769
Yeah.

00:33:56.028 --> 00:33:57.911
Regardless of what happens on-chain,

00:33:58.538 --> 00:34:00.119
We still live in a society

00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:00.839
with options and

00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:02.461
consequences and real

00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.202
people and laws that will follow you.

00:34:05.502 --> 00:34:08.344
And with real guns aren't aren't the same.

00:34:08.364 --> 00:34:08.565
Yeah.

00:34:08.664 --> 00:34:10.025
Real, real guns.

00:34:10.226 --> 00:34:12.146
The state at the end of the

00:34:12.166 --> 00:34:14.427
day has a monopoly on violence.

00:34:15.289 --> 00:34:15.489
Yep.

00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:16.829
Yep, exactly.

00:34:16.849 --> 00:34:17.789
All right.

00:34:18.250 --> 00:34:19.871
The last news story of the week.

00:34:19.990 --> 00:34:21.692
This is from DL News.

00:34:22.893 --> 00:34:23.673
And the headline is.

00:34:24.835 --> 00:34:26.597
Why Arbitrum might shower

00:34:26.697 --> 00:34:29.099
crypto games with $200 million.

00:34:29.898 --> 00:34:31.360
Arbitrum DAO is voting on a

00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.041
proposal to create a $200

00:34:33.041 --> 00:34:35.063
million gaming catalyst program.

00:34:35.543 --> 00:34:36.405
Critics have expressed

00:34:36.445 --> 00:34:38.045
concern that is too high a sum.

00:34:38.425 --> 00:34:39.666
Crypto-based video games

00:34:39.726 --> 00:34:42.068
have fallen out of favor with investors.

00:34:42.929 --> 00:34:44.170
So interesting here.

00:34:45.251 --> 00:34:46.632
I think I was a little bit

00:34:46.652 --> 00:34:48.313
surprised to see the bullet point.

00:34:48.592 --> 00:34:50.253
Crypto-based video games

00:34:50.293 --> 00:34:51.373
have fallen out of favor

00:34:51.414 --> 00:34:52.635
with investors because I

00:34:53.034 --> 00:34:54.356
think over the past couple of years,

00:34:54.396 --> 00:34:55.876
they've raised a ton of money.

00:34:55.896 --> 00:34:57.538
And maybe that has slowed

00:34:57.577 --> 00:34:59.739
down in the past six to 12 months,

00:34:59.818 --> 00:35:01.420
as funding has for most things.

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.300
But my impression was that a

00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:05.302
lot of crypto games are

00:35:05.322 --> 00:35:06.322
under development right now

00:35:06.382 --> 00:35:07.342
that are well-funded.

00:35:08.762 --> 00:35:10.704
But it's just kind of a fun story.

00:35:10.724 --> 00:35:11.485
You know, I think...

00:35:12.405 --> 00:35:13.025
On one hand,

00:35:13.065 --> 00:35:14.266
there may not be anything

00:35:14.646 --> 00:35:15.628
inherently wrong with

00:35:15.847 --> 00:35:17.148
giving a ton of money to

00:35:17.208 --> 00:35:18.751
help develop crypto games.

00:35:18.911 --> 00:35:19.672
I'm personally really

00:35:19.692 --> 00:35:21.132
excited about what crypto

00:35:21.152 --> 00:35:21.932
gaming might bring.

00:35:22.333 --> 00:35:24.335
On the other hand, I think, you know,

00:35:24.815 --> 00:35:26.797
when you give a group of

00:35:26.838 --> 00:35:28.878
people democratic control over money,

00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:29.519
of course,

00:35:29.539 --> 00:35:30.300
they're going to choose to do

00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:31.382
fun things with it, too.

00:35:31.862 --> 00:35:32.583
And maybe that could be a

00:35:32.643 --> 00:35:33.704
criticism of DAOs.

00:35:33.844 --> 00:35:34.503
But I think...

00:35:35.304 --> 00:35:36.125
You know, in some ways,

00:35:36.344 --> 00:35:37.425
this may be an example of

00:35:37.485 --> 00:35:38.505
how we end up with a more

00:35:38.626 --> 00:35:40.126
fun world when you give

00:35:40.186 --> 00:35:41.007
power to the people.

00:35:41.027 --> 00:35:42.108
Because what are the people like?

00:35:42.128 --> 00:35:43.307
The people like video games

00:35:43.367 --> 00:35:44.489
are going to fund the

00:35:44.528 --> 00:35:45.568
development of video games.

00:35:45.728 --> 00:35:46.250
That's great.

00:35:47.730 --> 00:35:48.951
Any thoughts on this one, Graham?

00:35:50.490 --> 00:35:50.690
Yeah,

00:35:51.652 --> 00:35:53.132
I believe the last update is that

00:35:53.211 --> 00:35:55.632
they did end up approving this vote.

00:35:55.974 --> 00:35:57.733
The main point of contention,

00:35:57.773 --> 00:35:59.155
the main point of controversy here is,

00:36:00.148 --> 00:36:01.250
uh is actually the way in

00:36:01.329 --> 00:36:03.311
which uh proposals are

00:36:03.351 --> 00:36:04.811
brought voted upon and

00:36:04.831 --> 00:36:06.773
agreed there's a phase

00:36:06.873 --> 00:36:08.454
where there was essentially

00:36:08.474 --> 00:36:09.675
like a soft vote right to

00:36:09.715 --> 00:36:10.536
introduce the community and

00:36:10.556 --> 00:36:11.476
people say hey do we want

00:36:11.496 --> 00:36:12.637
to have funding for this

00:36:12.817 --> 00:36:13.878
effort around video games

00:36:14.657 --> 00:36:15.619
huge overwhelming portion

00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:16.860
of the dow says yep sounds

00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:18.860
good and then the formal

00:36:19.181 --> 00:36:20.202
on-chain proposal that

00:36:20.242 --> 00:36:21.442
actually allocates the

00:36:21.481 --> 00:36:22.762
capital came in with

00:36:22.802 --> 00:36:23.784
substantially more money

00:36:24.123 --> 00:36:25.525
than what was originally being requested

00:36:26.248 --> 00:36:27.309
And everyone's like, yep, sounds good,

00:36:27.349 --> 00:36:27.710
sounds good.

00:36:27.730 --> 00:36:28.731
And then there was a handful

00:36:28.771 --> 00:36:30.132
of people who were saying, wait a second,

00:36:30.871 --> 00:36:31.913
even if we like gaming,

00:36:32.193 --> 00:36:33.153
even if the thrust of this

00:36:33.193 --> 00:36:34.514
is correct and we want to support this,

00:36:34.974 --> 00:36:36.376
this isn't exactly what we discussed.

00:36:36.456 --> 00:36:37.197
And so we have to have a

00:36:37.237 --> 00:36:38.157
broader discussion about

00:36:38.878 --> 00:36:40.219
how are we actually making decisions?

00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:41.760
And this vote was actually

00:36:41.780 --> 00:36:42.740
going on for a substantial

00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:44.021
period of time before just

00:36:44.041 --> 00:36:46.304
like a sole person like found this.

00:36:46.744 --> 00:36:47.945
And I don't know for sure,

00:36:47.965 --> 00:36:48.706
but I'm pretty sure credit

00:36:48.746 --> 00:36:52.030
goes to a person who goes

00:36:52.090 --> 00:36:54.813
by the pseudonym Paper Imperium.

00:36:54.853 --> 00:36:55.873
They're involved in many

00:36:56.655 --> 00:36:58.076
governance forums and does

00:36:58.315 --> 00:36:59.978
a good job of just tracking,

00:37:00.237 --> 00:37:01.500
are we doing good governance here?

00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:03.659
And in a different world,

00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:04.300
this could be something

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:05.141
where no one realized and went,

00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:05.960
oh my gosh,

00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:07.101
we wouldn't have approved it

00:37:07.121 --> 00:37:08.001
if it was this much money.

00:37:08.021 --> 00:37:10.242
So this is, I think,

00:37:10.282 --> 00:37:11.681
it's the heart of what is

00:37:11.702 --> 00:37:12.541
your governance system?

00:37:12.581 --> 00:37:13.422
What is your process?

00:37:13.702 --> 00:37:14.402
Who's involved in the

00:37:14.422 --> 00:37:15.302
decision-making process?

00:37:15.322 --> 00:37:16.762
Do you actually have good oversight?

00:37:16.782 --> 00:37:17.903
Are people even looking at

00:37:17.923 --> 00:37:19.003
the numbers on these things?

00:37:19.764 --> 00:37:20.184
It's crazy.

00:37:20.204 --> 00:37:20.483
I mean,

00:37:20.523 --> 00:37:21.463
this isn't a small amount of money.

00:37:21.483 --> 00:37:23.684
This is hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:25.760
It's insane.

00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:26.661
It's insane.

00:37:28.081 --> 00:37:28.601
It's awesome.

00:37:28.780 --> 00:37:29.061
Yeah.

00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:29.541
Yeah.

00:37:29.782 --> 00:37:29.961
Yeah.

00:37:30.081 --> 00:37:30.342
I mean,

00:37:30.362 --> 00:37:31.762
it goes back to me to the point of

00:37:31.802 --> 00:37:34.023
just every organization can

00:37:34.043 --> 00:37:35.684
do its governance differently.

00:37:36.123 --> 00:37:37.164
But it's important to know

00:37:37.503 --> 00:37:38.724
what system you're living

00:37:38.784 --> 00:37:40.704
in or working in so that

00:37:40.744 --> 00:37:41.965
it's not as much of a

00:37:42.025 --> 00:37:44.306
surprise when something at least that,

00:37:44.326 --> 00:37:45.467
you know, when something happens,

00:37:45.527 --> 00:37:46.306
is this the way things are

00:37:46.327 --> 00:37:47.286
supposed to go or is there

00:37:47.306 --> 00:37:48.268
actually something wrong here?

00:37:48.288 --> 00:37:48.447
Yeah.

00:37:50.010 --> 00:37:51.211
Totally.

00:37:51.472 --> 00:37:52.693
Yeah, that's interesting.

00:37:52.753 --> 00:37:54.034
So you're saying the

00:37:54.134 --> 00:37:56.235
on-chain vote actually did end up passing,

00:37:56.516 --> 00:38:00.699
or at least the off-chain version passed?

00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:02.981
They did end up approving

00:38:03.061 --> 00:38:04.322
the allocation of capital.

00:38:04.561 --> 00:38:04.742
Yep.

00:38:05.302 --> 00:38:05.543
Cool.

00:38:05.802 --> 00:38:06.083
Awesome.

00:38:06.242 --> 00:38:06.623
Exciting.

00:38:07.384 --> 00:38:07.784
All right, good.

00:38:07.804 --> 00:38:08.804
Because I tried out,

00:38:09.224 --> 00:38:10.186
there was this crypto game

00:38:10.226 --> 00:38:11.907
that came out last month

00:38:11.927 --> 00:38:14.108
that had been very hotly anticipated,

00:38:14.128 --> 00:38:16.471
and then I thought it was really boring.

00:38:18.661 --> 00:38:20.384
Battle of Guardians, something like that.

00:38:21.664 --> 00:38:23.367
So anyways, unfortunate.

00:38:23.628 --> 00:38:24.429
Better things to come.

00:38:24.570 --> 00:38:26.452
My take on video games is like,

00:38:27.409 --> 00:38:29.068
for a second, pause anything blockchain,

00:38:29.088 --> 00:38:30.050
pause anything crypto.

00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:31.429
Is it a good game?

00:38:31.630 --> 00:38:32.809
Is it a really good game

00:38:32.829 --> 00:38:34.110
that gets people coming back again?

00:38:34.751 --> 00:38:36.110
If that answer to that is yes,

00:38:36.431 --> 00:38:37.512
now let's talk.

00:38:38.592 --> 00:38:39.711
On what system is it built?

00:38:39.751 --> 00:38:41.213
Does it happen to be on crypto?

00:38:41.313 --> 00:38:42.853
That needs to be the secondary question,

00:38:43.293 --> 00:38:44.152
not the first question.

00:38:44.713 --> 00:38:45.773
I don't think that something

00:38:45.954 --> 00:38:47.173
being built on crypto is

00:38:47.313 --> 00:38:49.195
ever going to attract a large,

00:38:49.494 --> 00:38:51.275
sustainable audience who's

00:38:51.295 --> 00:38:52.096
got staying power.

00:38:52.376 --> 00:38:53.615
The thing that brings staying power is

00:38:54.275 --> 00:38:55.737
good games and broadly in

00:38:55.757 --> 00:38:56.737
the crypto space good

00:38:56.757 --> 00:38:59.079
applications and just being

00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:00.340
on chain enough isn't

00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:03.222
enough yep yeah good point

00:39:03.302 --> 00:39:04.784
yeah I agree I mean to me

00:39:04.864 --> 00:39:06.364
it's like and as you know

00:39:06.385 --> 00:39:08.365
I'm the type who I love the

00:39:08.425 --> 00:39:09.806
idea of video games and I

00:39:09.907 --> 00:39:11.148
follow a little bit of

00:39:11.168 --> 00:39:11.869
what's happening in that

00:39:11.909 --> 00:39:13.489
world every now and then a

00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:14.971
game captures my attention

00:39:14.990 --> 00:39:16.612
and every now and then like

00:39:16.692 --> 00:39:18.793
every few or several years

00:39:19.293 --> 00:39:20.135
a game captures my

00:39:20.175 --> 00:39:21.074
attention enough that I'll

00:39:21.114 --> 00:39:21.976
put like a few hundred

00:39:21.996 --> 00:39:23.137
dollars into whatever they're

00:39:23.780 --> 00:39:24.641
their system is.

00:39:25.742 --> 00:39:26.782
And in those cases,

00:39:26.922 --> 00:39:27.903
I think I would spend so

00:39:27.943 --> 00:39:29.204
much more if I actually

00:39:29.385 --> 00:39:30.407
owned the stuff I was

00:39:30.467 --> 00:39:31.788
buying and if I could

00:39:31.827 --> 00:39:32.829
resell it in the future.

00:39:32.869 --> 00:39:33.809
I mean, I would just, you know,

00:39:33.829 --> 00:39:34.971
whereas before my limit

00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:37.092
might be like 50 to 100

00:39:37.092 --> 00:39:38.253
bucks if I like the game,

00:39:38.313 --> 00:39:39.255
maybe like a few hundred

00:39:39.295 --> 00:39:40.757
bucks if I really, really love it.

00:39:41.317 --> 00:39:42.518
Yeah, my limit, I think,

00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:44.059
would go up if I'm actually

00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:45.402
buying stuff I can own and

00:39:45.442 --> 00:39:46.302
trade and sell.

00:39:47.282 --> 00:39:48.143
But to your point,

00:39:48.402 --> 00:39:51.603
to even get me to put $300

00:39:51.603 --> 00:39:53.784
into a black box that I

00:39:53.844 --> 00:39:54.985
probably will never see again,

00:39:55.005 --> 00:39:56.545
it's got to be a good game

00:39:56.704 --> 00:39:57.385
in the first place.

00:39:59.726 --> 00:40:00.106
Definitely.

00:40:00.126 --> 00:40:01.387
It needs to be a good game.

00:40:01.467 --> 00:40:03.407
I think that some projects

00:40:04.067 --> 00:40:06.148
have accidentally shot

00:40:06.188 --> 00:40:07.387
themselves in the foot.

00:40:08.179 --> 00:40:09.021
And the reason I say that is

00:40:09.621 --> 00:40:10.440
what we really need is a

00:40:10.481 --> 00:40:12.123
really set of really high

00:40:12.163 --> 00:40:13.543
quality AAA games.

00:40:13.623 --> 00:40:14.603
And there's going to be a

00:40:14.664 --> 00:40:16.585
group that nails the mechanics,

00:40:16.925 --> 00:40:17.826
that nails gameplay,

00:40:18.085 --> 00:40:18.847
that nails experience.

00:40:18.867 --> 00:40:19.407
It's going to be great.

00:40:19.507 --> 00:40:20.128
And it's also going to

00:40:20.148 --> 00:40:21.007
happen via blockchain.

00:40:21.407 --> 00:40:21.969
It's going to have a lot of

00:40:21.989 --> 00:40:24.289
these properties that we

00:40:24.309 --> 00:40:25.490
know to be important.

00:40:27.371 --> 00:40:28.552
The problem if you raise a

00:40:28.592 --> 00:40:30.034
bunch of money by selling NFTs,

00:40:30.054 --> 00:40:30.653
selling tokens,

00:40:30.673 --> 00:40:31.835
you've got all this money in the treasury,

00:40:31.855 --> 00:40:33.155
the operating team has this money.

00:40:34.545 --> 00:40:35.646
The incentives are a little bit backwards,

00:40:35.666 --> 00:40:35.786
right?

00:40:35.826 --> 00:40:37.146
You've got all the money now up front.

00:40:37.326 --> 00:40:38.067
Now you have to go do the

00:40:38.146 --> 00:40:39.467
hard work of building the thing.

00:40:40.588 --> 00:40:42.148
It's actually, I think, a feature,

00:40:42.248 --> 00:40:42.989
not a bug.

00:40:43.509 --> 00:40:44.630
Most of the time when groups

00:40:44.730 --> 00:40:45.570
don't have liquidity,

00:40:45.889 --> 00:40:46.971
like if you're a startup,

00:40:47.411 --> 00:40:49.371
a startup who's building video games,

00:40:49.532 --> 00:40:50.251
completely off chain,

00:40:50.572 --> 00:40:51.813
you go raise money from a VC.

00:40:51.932 --> 00:40:52.592
It's illiquid.

00:40:52.873 --> 00:40:53.594
You can't sell out.

00:40:53.634 --> 00:40:54.773
You can't make money from this yet.

00:40:55.313 --> 00:40:56.675
You don't have any choice

00:40:56.855 --> 00:40:58.795
but to go build an incredible game.

00:40:59.989 --> 00:41:01.250
get it in a bunch of hands of people,

00:41:01.469 --> 00:41:02.590
have it be wildly successful,

00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:04.010
and then maybe your game

00:41:04.030 --> 00:41:04.590
will get acquired.

00:41:04.690 --> 00:41:05.512
Maybe you can go public.

00:41:05.652 --> 00:41:06.391
So you have all these

00:41:06.452 --> 00:41:07.333
options for exits later.

00:41:07.592 --> 00:41:08.733
But if the exit happens

00:41:09.014 --> 00:41:10.054
before you build the product,

00:41:10.474 --> 00:41:11.255
there's a lot of people who are like,

00:41:11.934 --> 00:41:12.315
you know what?

00:41:14.235 --> 00:41:15.556
The game might come out eventually.

00:41:15.597 --> 00:41:16.858
And we've seen this cycle

00:41:16.918 --> 00:41:17.737
happen again and again.

00:41:17.838 --> 00:41:19.278
And it is a truly broken

00:41:19.318 --> 00:41:20.378
incentive in many cases.

00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:22.541
So this is a case where a

00:41:22.661 --> 00:41:25.282
lack of liquidity on the

00:41:25.322 --> 00:41:25.862
relationship to your

00:41:25.882 --> 00:41:27.603
investment might actually be a feature.

00:41:27.623 --> 00:41:28.523
Yeah.

00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:30.961
Yeah, that's interesting.

00:41:30.981 --> 00:41:32.663
So that could apply really

00:41:32.722 --> 00:41:34.485
generally to any time we're

00:41:34.625 --> 00:41:37.927
leveraging crypto to bring

00:41:37.987 --> 00:41:39.949
liquidity to any project or

00:41:40.028 --> 00:41:42.309
startup at the earliest stages, right?

00:41:42.331 --> 00:41:43.630
Because if you get enough-

00:41:46.277 --> 00:41:48.197
Go ahead.

00:41:48.277 --> 00:41:49.318
Just thinking like if you

00:41:49.358 --> 00:41:50.699
get enough hype and your

00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:52.699
marketing team's good and

00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:54.021
you haven't even built anything yet,

00:41:54.061 --> 00:41:55.262
but you raise millions of

00:41:55.282 --> 00:41:57.362
dollars and you actually

00:41:57.443 --> 00:41:59.583
could walk away with that money, right?

00:41:59.603 --> 00:42:01.125
Start selling your tokens or

00:42:01.164 --> 00:42:02.425
borrowing against your tokens.

00:42:02.905 --> 00:42:03.286
Yeah, I mean,

00:42:03.306 --> 00:42:04.485
I think I'm sure a lot of

00:42:04.525 --> 00:42:05.867
people fall into that trap, right?

00:42:05.887 --> 00:42:06.447
It's like, oh,

00:42:06.487 --> 00:42:07.507
I have now I already have a

00:42:07.547 --> 00:42:08.088
million dollars.

00:42:08.128 --> 00:42:10.449
Why do I even need to go build this game,

00:42:10.469 --> 00:42:11.070
right?

00:42:11.090 --> 00:42:12.269
And then maybe you just walk away.

00:42:12.289 --> 00:42:13.911
You need people to be hungry.

00:42:13.931 --> 00:42:15.192
You need them to be incentivized.

00:42:15.751 --> 00:42:16.713
I'll be the first to say,

00:42:16.733 --> 00:42:18.114
I guarantee you in this

00:42:18.153 --> 00:42:20.596
cohort of AI tokens,

00:42:21.016 --> 00:42:21.838
there's tons and tons of

00:42:21.858 --> 00:42:23.978
them that don't end up building jack shit,

00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:24.539
nothing.

00:42:25.099 --> 00:42:25.820
And there's a lot of people

00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:26.802
who make a lot of money.

00:42:27.382 --> 00:42:28.744
And that should make you mad,

00:42:28.943 --> 00:42:29.563
makes me mad.

00:42:29.623 --> 00:42:30.505
It will make a lot of people

00:42:30.525 --> 00:42:31.146
in the industry mad.

00:42:31.166 --> 00:42:32.467
But it's because you're

00:42:33.007 --> 00:42:34.327
putting money into a bad

00:42:34.367 --> 00:42:36.030
incentive mechanism that's

00:42:36.090 --> 00:42:37.210
not destined for success.

00:42:38.331 --> 00:42:38.992
Yep, yep.

00:42:39.996 --> 00:42:40.797
All right, with that,

00:42:40.858 --> 00:42:43.219
let's conclude the JustDAOit news report.

00:42:43.438 --> 00:42:46.000
So that was the first half of the episode.

00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:48.422
I will do a quick segue and a quick ad,

00:42:48.842 --> 00:42:50.143
and then we will turn to

00:42:50.362 --> 00:42:52.264
the featured guest interview with Graham.

00:42:52.844 --> 00:42:55.045
So for the ad, it's an ad for MyDAO,

00:42:55.505 --> 00:42:56.585
since we're the company

00:42:56.626 --> 00:42:57.806
that sponsors the show.

00:42:58.708 --> 00:42:59.987
Just reminding everyone that

00:43:00.007 --> 00:43:01.088
we're in the business of

00:43:01.168 --> 00:43:02.409
providing legal entities

00:43:02.530 --> 00:43:04.050
for DAOs and Web3 projects.

00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:05.532
And we're happy to talk to

00:43:05.592 --> 00:43:07.472
anyone who is interested in

00:43:07.492 --> 00:43:09.454
the potential for legal

00:43:09.474 --> 00:43:10.755
entities involved in their work.

00:43:11.476 --> 00:43:12.476
We also have a partner

00:43:12.536 --> 00:43:14.137
network of lawyers and tax

00:43:14.177 --> 00:43:15.659
advisors and other professionals,

00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:17.221
banks all over the world

00:43:17.240 --> 00:43:17.981
that are interested in

00:43:18.021 --> 00:43:19.862
working with DAOs and Web3 projects.

00:43:20.302 --> 00:43:22.023
So if you are looking for a

00:43:22.085 --> 00:43:24.126
lawyer or an advisor, please reach out.

00:43:24.166 --> 00:43:25.626
There's no cost to get connected.

00:43:26.268 --> 00:43:28.349
Or if you are a lawyer or a

00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:29.690
advisor of some kind

00:43:29.750 --> 00:43:31.030
interested in working with DAOs,

00:43:31.351 --> 00:43:32.532
please reach out as well to

00:43:32.572 --> 00:43:34.074
get added to our network.

00:43:35.226 --> 00:43:36.065
With that said,

00:43:36.507 --> 00:43:38.327
turning to the featured guest interview.

00:43:38.387 --> 00:43:40.568
So what's fun about this format, Graham,

00:43:40.608 --> 00:43:41.427
is we've already gotten to

00:43:41.489 --> 00:43:43.228
talk about some really meaningful stuff.

00:43:43.768 --> 00:43:46.269
But before we get back into the weeds,

00:43:46.590 --> 00:43:48.010
let's just take one step back.

00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:50.751
And would you please share

00:43:50.931 --> 00:43:53.413
with us what got you into

00:43:53.492 --> 00:43:55.534
Web3 and DAOs in the first place?

00:43:57.875 --> 00:43:58.394
Great question.

00:43:59.496 --> 00:44:01.317
Uh, getting into web three,

00:44:01.376 --> 00:44:02.577
it started with crypto

00:44:02.817 --> 00:44:05.998
specifically Bitcoin in 2017.

00:44:05.998 --> 00:44:06.878
I was, uh,

00:44:07.157 --> 00:44:08.798
running a regular web two company.

00:44:08.938 --> 00:44:10.878
It was a real estate aggregation platform.

00:44:11.498 --> 00:44:12.960
And one of my customers had

00:44:12.980 --> 00:44:14.119
already hit it big on Bitcoin.

00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:14.800
Um,

00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.320
we were having just a really great

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:18.400
conversation about it.

00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:19.021
And I,

00:44:19.300 --> 00:44:21.101
I didn't know much and I was making

00:44:21.141 --> 00:44:22.842
the con Bitcoin argument.

00:44:22.862 --> 00:44:24.523
I was like, this is bad cash flows.

00:44:24.543 --> 00:44:25.202
I don't understand this.

00:44:25.981 --> 00:44:26.663
And he made a lot of good

00:44:26.682 --> 00:44:29.045
points I just didn't have a

00:44:29.065 --> 00:44:29.644
reputation for.

00:44:29.684 --> 00:44:30.646
So he recommended a book to me.

00:44:30.987 --> 00:44:33.469
It was Digital Gold by Nathaniel Popper.

00:44:33.568 --> 00:44:34.650
And I fell down the rabbit hole.

00:44:34.670 --> 00:44:35.911
Next thing you know,

00:44:35.931 --> 00:44:36.650
I was trying to arbitrage

00:44:36.692 --> 00:44:39.393
Litecoin and Bitcoin on random exchanges.

00:44:39.434 --> 00:44:41.114
There's a crazy 80% premium

00:44:41.195 --> 00:44:45.940
on US to foreign exchanges in 2017 time.

00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:49.081
Super illiquid.

00:44:49.101 --> 00:44:49.782
There was no money to be

00:44:49.802 --> 00:44:50.583
made on some of these things.

00:44:50.603 --> 00:44:51.804
But I was like, it's super fascinating.

00:44:52.364 --> 00:44:53.965
I kept falling down the crypto rabbit hole,

00:44:54.146 --> 00:44:55.766
ended up leading crypto

00:44:55.786 --> 00:44:57.347
investing at 28th Street Ventures.

00:44:58.507 --> 00:45:00.307
It's a family office.

00:45:00.568 --> 00:45:03.148
I was doing private equity software stuff,

00:45:03.309 --> 00:45:04.550
also public market software stuff,

00:45:04.869 --> 00:45:05.630
but I started the crypto

00:45:05.650 --> 00:45:06.791
investment practice and was

00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:07.971
going to get deeper into it.

00:45:08.811 --> 00:45:10.132
In 2021,

00:45:10.132 --> 00:45:12.353
Constitution DAO was just the

00:45:12.552 --> 00:45:14.934
craziest whirlwind week of my life.

00:45:18.054 --> 00:45:19.536
I really don't even have words for it.

00:45:19.637 --> 00:45:20.097
And after that,

00:45:20.356 --> 00:45:22.659
I decided to go full-time crypto,

00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:24.922
spent some time at Salt's

00:45:24.961 --> 00:45:27.023
Crypto Fund and now

00:45:27.103 --> 00:45:28.405
building mezzanine for

00:45:28.945 --> 00:45:31.568
building tools for on-chain

00:45:31.708 --> 00:45:32.309
organizations.

00:45:34.271 --> 00:45:34.612
Awesome.

00:45:34.791 --> 00:45:35.632
So tell us just a little

00:45:35.672 --> 00:45:36.753
more about Constitution DAO.

00:45:36.773 --> 00:45:38.376
I mean, how did that happen?

00:45:39.916 --> 00:45:40.117
Yeah.

00:45:41.047 --> 00:45:42.268
I think like a lot of things,

00:45:43.387 --> 00:45:46.710
it's the right mixture of people, events,

00:45:46.750 --> 00:45:48.190
and circumstances all at the same time.

00:45:49.692 --> 00:45:52.574
The very origin of it's kind of funny.

00:45:52.873 --> 00:45:53.853
I was in group chat with a

00:45:53.893 --> 00:45:55.394
couple friends from college.

00:45:55.835 --> 00:45:56.715
None of them are crypto.

00:45:56.735 --> 00:45:57.597
None of them are Web3 or

00:45:58.416 --> 00:45:58.876
technology.

00:45:58.896 --> 00:46:00.057
One of them works at an

00:46:01.018 --> 00:46:03.059
auction house in Ohio and

00:46:03.079 --> 00:46:03.960
follows auction house news,

00:46:04.260 --> 00:46:05.320
had seen this thing about

00:46:05.641 --> 00:46:06.922
this upcoming Sotheby's auction.

00:46:07.242 --> 00:46:08.163
There's an original copy of

00:46:08.182 --> 00:46:08.862
the Constitution.

00:46:08.963 --> 00:46:11.324
She sent this little article to the group.

00:46:11.885 --> 00:46:12.804
And I'd been doing research

00:46:12.885 --> 00:46:13.885
on DAOs at the time,

00:46:14.306 --> 00:46:15.666
on specifically Aaron

00:46:15.686 --> 00:46:16.507
Wright and the folks at

00:46:16.527 --> 00:46:18.228
Tribute Labs had started a

00:46:18.288 --> 00:46:19.688
group called SharkDAO.

00:46:19.708 --> 00:46:20.570
It's one of the first

00:46:22.190 --> 00:46:23.311
collector DAOs of sorts to

00:46:23.331 --> 00:46:25.813
pull together money and to purchase NFTs.

00:46:25.853 --> 00:46:25.913
And

00:46:26.833 --> 00:46:28.454
And so I had this fresh in

00:46:28.474 --> 00:46:30.353
my mind when I got this article.

00:46:30.373 --> 00:46:31.735
And there was two things that struck me,

00:46:31.775 --> 00:46:32.855
which is the estimated

00:46:32.914 --> 00:46:34.175
price of the auction was

00:46:34.195 --> 00:46:34.936
going to be way too low.

00:46:34.996 --> 00:46:36.135
They were estimating $10 to

00:46:36.135 --> 00:46:38.896
$15 million for a copy of

00:46:39.077 --> 00:46:40.797
the Constitutional Convention copy,

00:46:40.878 --> 00:46:41.038
right?

00:46:41.378 --> 00:46:42.737
This is insane.

00:46:42.757 --> 00:46:44.239
And I was like, that's nuts.

00:46:44.458 --> 00:46:44.898
And also...

00:46:45.771 --> 00:46:47.092
fresh off thinking all this, you know,

00:46:47.231 --> 00:46:48.331
this doubt that things I was like,

00:46:48.371 --> 00:46:49.932
we could definitely launch

00:46:49.972 --> 00:46:50.974
a data by the Constitution.

00:46:50.994 --> 00:46:52.614
So I messaged my buddy, Austin,

00:46:53.114 --> 00:46:53.994
we put together a quick,

00:46:54.235 --> 00:46:55.195
like one page plan,

00:46:55.536 --> 00:46:56.237
started messaging everyone

00:46:56.257 --> 00:46:57.496
we know on crypto Twitter saying,

00:46:57.797 --> 00:46:59.057
kickoff call 8pm,

00:46:59.778 --> 00:47:01.099
launching a data by the Constitution.

00:47:01.659 --> 00:47:02.960
A bunch of folks showed up

00:47:03.521 --> 00:47:04.880
immediately after kicked off the Twitter,

00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:05.541
the discord.

00:47:05.961 --> 00:47:06.342
By that point,

00:47:06.362 --> 00:47:07.483
we'd already reached out to Sotheby's,

00:47:07.503 --> 00:47:08.043
we had three different

00:47:08.063 --> 00:47:08.923
plans and process in

00:47:08.963 --> 00:47:09.963
parallel to start legal

00:47:09.983 --> 00:47:11.304
entities to be able to

00:47:11.344 --> 00:47:12.606
actually participate in the auction.

00:47:12.865 --> 00:47:13.505
So all the parts that

00:47:13.525 --> 00:47:15.067
started did moving right away.

00:47:15.891 --> 00:47:16.690
And then that whole thing

00:47:16.731 --> 00:47:18.472
was exactly one week.

00:47:18.492 --> 00:47:21.713
We started on November 11th

00:47:22.293 --> 00:47:23.795
was the day we hosted that kickoff call.

00:47:23.875 --> 00:47:25.135
November 18th, one week later,

00:47:25.155 --> 00:47:28.416
our core team was in New York City,

00:47:28.436 --> 00:47:29.556
a couple blocks away on the

00:47:29.617 --> 00:47:32.159
phone with David Schrader.

00:47:32.298 --> 00:47:33.739
And Brooke was the famous

00:47:33.778 --> 00:47:35.219
person across from us

00:47:35.300 --> 00:47:36.840
bidding on behalf of Ken Griffin.

00:47:38.472 --> 00:47:39.052
That's awesome.

00:47:39.873 --> 00:47:40.173
That's cool.

00:47:40.193 --> 00:47:40.853
So you know what I didn't

00:47:40.873 --> 00:47:42.474
realize until now was that

00:47:42.514 --> 00:47:43.735
we passed our first law in

00:47:43.755 --> 00:47:47.197
the Marshall Islands in November of 2021.

00:47:47.197 --> 00:47:48.458
Is that when you're talking about too?

00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:50.500
Yeah, that's it.

00:47:50.860 --> 00:47:51.721
Yeah, around the same time.

00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:52.302
That's cool.

00:47:53.202 --> 00:47:54.322
Well, really exciting story.

00:47:54.362 --> 00:47:54.563
Again,

00:47:54.603 --> 00:47:56.184
I definitely recommend people check

00:47:56.304 --> 00:47:58.565
out the Constitution Dow story online.

00:47:58.865 --> 00:48:01.166
Although before people go do that,

00:48:01.206 --> 00:48:01.987
are there things they get

00:48:02.027 --> 00:48:03.168
wrong in the media?

00:48:03.507 --> 00:48:05.009
Like if people just go Google this,

00:48:05.088 --> 00:48:05.630
is there anything you'd

00:48:05.670 --> 00:48:06.610
want them to know that was

00:48:06.630 --> 00:48:07.411
like different or-

00:48:08.724 --> 00:48:12.626
So actually there's all kinds of, um, part,

00:48:12.945 --> 00:48:14.347
I, it's almost never malicious.

00:48:14.447 --> 00:48:16.068
It's just people don't have, you know,

00:48:16.088 --> 00:48:17.268
complete stories, complete facts.

00:48:17.608 --> 00:48:18.429
And part of it is we,

00:48:18.548 --> 00:48:20.130
we did try to keep it

00:48:20.469 --> 00:48:21.530
fairly decentralized.

00:48:21.670 --> 00:48:23.251
And so it means you don't

00:48:23.271 --> 00:48:24.032
have as much of like a

00:48:24.271 --> 00:48:25.672
clear narrative of exactly what happened.

00:48:26.233 --> 00:48:27.733
Um, one of the things that gets, um,

00:48:28.313 --> 00:48:29.255
wrong frequently or people

00:48:29.275 --> 00:48:30.735
are just confused about is, well,

00:48:30.755 --> 00:48:31.856
what happened with the money, right?

00:48:32.036 --> 00:48:33.336
We raised tens of millions

00:48:33.356 --> 00:48:34.518
of dollars worth of Ethereum.

00:48:34.838 --> 00:48:35.538
We lose the auction.

00:48:35.557 --> 00:48:36.239
What happens next?

00:48:36.878 --> 00:48:36.918
Um,

00:48:38.206 --> 00:48:39.467
This was very straightforward.

00:48:39.786 --> 00:48:40.987
The mechanism design that we

00:48:41.128 --> 00:48:43.010
used was if you put in one ether,

00:48:43.030 --> 00:48:44.791
you got 1 million tokens

00:48:45.672 --> 00:48:47.275
and you would have pro rata,

00:48:47.355 --> 00:48:49.217
proportional governance of

00:48:49.257 --> 00:48:50.878
the document if we'd won it.

00:48:51.518 --> 00:48:52.260
If we didn't win,

00:48:52.539 --> 00:48:54.141
all the money went back

00:48:54.161 --> 00:48:55.063
into the smart contract.

00:48:55.402 --> 00:48:56.824
There's no fees, there's no cut,

00:48:56.864 --> 00:48:58.005
there's no pre-mine, there's nothing.

00:48:58.789 --> 00:48:59.949
And you can take your

00:49:00.070 --> 00:49:01.391
million tokens and redeem

00:49:01.431 --> 00:49:02.952
them for your underlying assets.

00:49:02.992 --> 00:49:05.072
You could get back 100% of your refund.

00:49:05.653 --> 00:49:06.833
Of course, you still pay gas fees.

00:49:06.873 --> 00:49:07.875
There's nothing we can do about that.

00:49:07.894 --> 00:49:11.978
That's just a part of transaction costs.

00:49:12.538 --> 00:49:13.579
But you can get your refund.

00:49:14.219 --> 00:49:15.360
What we did not expect,

00:49:15.579 --> 00:49:16.240
what we did not know,

00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:17.722
what we did not predict was

00:49:17.762 --> 00:49:18.762
that when we said, all right,

00:49:18.782 --> 00:49:20.222
we're winding down the

00:49:20.302 --> 00:49:21.844
organization because we lost the auction.

00:49:22.023 --> 00:49:22.925
Take your money back and go home.

00:49:22.945 --> 00:49:23.505
It's the right thing.

00:49:23.525 --> 00:49:24.445
It's the ethical thing to do.

00:49:25.025 --> 00:49:25.547
People said no.

00:49:26.643 --> 00:49:28.184
I don't want, I don't want my money back.

00:49:28.204 --> 00:49:30.085
I want my token.

00:49:30.105 --> 00:49:30.744
And they started,

00:49:31.025 --> 00:49:31.925
they started speculating on

00:49:31.945 --> 00:49:33.045
this token on secondary markets.

00:49:33.106 --> 00:49:35.106
This thing is, I mean, to this day,

00:49:35.166 --> 00:49:35.606
right now,

00:49:36.085 --> 00:49:36.905
hundreds of millions of dollars

00:49:36.925 --> 00:49:37.407
in market cap,

00:49:37.547 --> 00:49:38.286
doing hundreds of millions

00:49:38.306 --> 00:49:39.726
of dollars daily volume for

00:49:40.347 --> 00:49:41.106
the purpose of memes.

00:49:41.407 --> 00:49:41.728
Like, right.

00:49:41.748 --> 00:49:41.907
There's,

00:49:41.927 --> 00:49:43.588
there's no rational explanation

00:49:43.628 --> 00:49:45.288
other than, you know, people want it.

00:49:45.628 --> 00:49:47.568
There is locked underlying assets.

00:49:47.628 --> 00:49:49.768
If you were to go buy people tokens today,

00:49:50.030 --> 00:49:50.769
you could go buy them on

00:49:50.789 --> 00:49:52.409
the market and go redeem

00:49:52.429 --> 00:49:53.070
them for the underlying

00:49:53.090 --> 00:49:54.771
collateral at the same

00:49:54.951 --> 00:49:56.010
original exchange rate.

00:49:57.255 --> 00:49:58.016
There's no game theory to

00:49:58.056 --> 00:49:58.898
consent is because

00:49:58.958 --> 00:50:00.581
secondary market price just

00:50:00.601 --> 00:50:01.621
so much higher than the

00:50:01.661 --> 00:50:02.744
value people put into it.

00:50:03.405 --> 00:50:05.166
So that's kind of the funny

00:50:05.206 --> 00:50:06.429
circumstance about how we

00:50:06.449 --> 00:50:07.150
got to where we're at today.

00:50:08.583 --> 00:50:08.884
Yeah,

00:50:09.503 --> 00:50:10.644
and I think that's going to be one of

00:50:10.664 --> 00:50:12.684
the most interesting things

00:50:12.724 --> 00:50:15.485
to watch as crypto develops

00:50:15.585 --> 00:50:16.686
and hopefully goes more

00:50:16.726 --> 00:50:19.226
mainstream over time is

00:50:19.286 --> 00:50:21.407
just how much power is

00:50:21.467 --> 00:50:23.467
there in this market

00:50:23.507 --> 00:50:25.307
capitalization mechanism

00:50:25.708 --> 00:50:27.027
that you introduce anytime

00:50:27.068 --> 00:50:28.248
something can be traded

00:50:28.768 --> 00:50:30.809
freely or publicly,

00:50:30.909 --> 00:50:32.650
but I don't mean through the SEC,

00:50:32.690 --> 00:50:33.030
but through...

00:50:33.710 --> 00:50:33.969
you know,

00:50:34.210 --> 00:50:35.471
just crypto markets that are

00:50:35.690 --> 00:50:38.172
practically free and anyone

00:50:38.192 --> 00:50:39.152
can take advantage of them.

00:50:39.211 --> 00:50:41.393
And so like, what's the power of a meme?

00:50:41.532 --> 00:50:43.193
I think maybe that's the question, right?

00:50:43.313 --> 00:50:44.393
As people are just more and

00:50:44.414 --> 00:50:46.255
more online and put more

00:50:46.315 --> 00:50:47.815
weight on the digital world.

00:50:48.215 --> 00:50:49.876
And as people are wealthier and wealthier,

00:50:49.896 --> 00:50:51.275
I mean, the wealthier people get,

00:50:51.297 --> 00:50:53.117
the more they have a few

00:50:53.157 --> 00:50:54.818
hundred bucks or a few thousand bucks,

00:50:56.137 --> 00:50:57.639
to spend for fun on something.

00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:01.001
And if that fun thing is a token, well,

00:51:01.041 --> 00:51:02.503
now you have a market cap of,

00:51:02.663 --> 00:51:03.242
like you said,

00:51:03.282 --> 00:51:04.764
maybe hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:51:05.664 --> 00:51:06.746
And what does that do to the

00:51:06.806 --> 00:51:08.407
economy at large if we

00:51:08.447 --> 00:51:11.068
suddenly have piles of

00:51:11.728 --> 00:51:15.032
capital being generated all over?

00:51:15.052 --> 00:51:15.231
Really,

00:51:15.271 --> 00:51:16.833
this should be a great thing for

00:51:17.112 --> 00:51:17.753
capitalism.

00:51:18.634 --> 00:51:19.815
You can capitalize something

00:51:19.855 --> 00:51:21.576
that previously was just in our heads,

00:51:22.336 --> 00:51:22.597
right?

00:51:22.617 --> 00:51:23.617
Yeah.

00:51:25.222 --> 00:51:26.742
Yeah, really interesting.

00:51:27.923 --> 00:51:28.784
I don't know exactly how

00:51:28.824 --> 00:51:29.706
it's going to pan out,

00:51:29.846 --> 00:51:32.788
but there is something that

00:51:32.947 --> 00:51:34.989
crypto has done that's the

00:51:35.110 --> 00:51:36.990
best representation of,

00:51:37.030 --> 00:51:38.713
which is things that

00:51:38.813 --> 00:51:40.833
capture a lot of mindshare,

00:51:41.574 --> 00:51:43.295
things that people think about a lot,

00:51:44.297 --> 00:51:45.177
have some price

00:51:46.664 --> 00:51:48.445
potentially value to them as well.

00:51:49.806 --> 00:51:52.389
There's the common value investing adage,

00:51:52.449 --> 00:51:52.708
I think,

00:51:52.748 --> 00:51:54.210
from Buffett or Munger or

00:51:54.230 --> 00:51:55.612
something that price is what you pay,

00:51:55.711 --> 00:51:56.753
value is what you get.

00:51:57.632 --> 00:51:59.295
You can make an argument that price,

00:51:59.974 --> 00:52:00.896
Constitution of Dow's token,

00:52:01.215 --> 00:52:02.717
is what you buy on the market right now.

00:52:02.777 --> 00:52:05.000
The value is what is the underlying asset.

00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:06.581
There's an actual knowable

00:52:06.641 --> 00:52:08.121
value of Ethereum.

00:52:09.043 --> 00:52:09.923
For a lot of these other things,

00:52:10.224 --> 00:52:11.204
I think we're going to have

00:52:11.264 --> 00:52:12.206
interesting questions, which is,

00:52:12.909 --> 00:52:14.871
do people actually care about value?

00:52:15.391 --> 00:52:16.251
And increasingly so,

00:52:16.632 --> 00:52:17.431
the answer to that question

00:52:17.592 --> 00:52:18.652
might not be yes,

00:52:19.072 --> 00:52:20.992
that people are

00:52:21.454 --> 00:52:22.393
disconnecting from what

00:52:22.474 --> 00:52:24.135
traditional measures of value have been,

00:52:24.474 --> 00:52:26.536
not for days or weeks or months,

00:52:26.735 --> 00:52:27.715
but entire years.

00:52:28.195 --> 00:52:29.856
And so it does beg the question,

00:52:30.958 --> 00:52:32.340
is there a fundamentally

00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:34.481
different paradigm and is

00:52:34.501 --> 00:52:36.021
the traditional means of

00:52:36.422 --> 00:52:37.762
assessing and measuring

00:52:38.003 --> 00:52:39.123
price or value or

00:52:39.182 --> 00:52:40.443
predicting that are those

00:52:40.483 --> 00:52:42.105
beginning to deteriorate or

00:52:42.144 --> 00:52:42.724
they're just certain

00:52:42.824 --> 00:52:44.065
sectors that you can't

00:52:44.126 --> 00:52:45.427
apply those same rules do

00:52:45.447 --> 00:52:46.387
the laws of you know

00:52:46.427 --> 00:52:47.288
physics not apply in the

00:52:47.327 --> 00:52:50.148
same way and only long

00:52:50.168 --> 00:52:51.289
duration of time is going to tell

00:52:52.856 --> 00:52:54.117
But there is also like a

00:52:54.217 --> 00:52:55.418
different value that people

00:52:55.458 --> 00:52:56.757
are presumably getting, right?

00:52:56.797 --> 00:53:00.938
Like a emotional value, a spiritual value,

00:53:01.298 --> 00:53:01.498
right?

00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:02.739
Even if the underlying

00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:05.059
Ethereum isn't worth much

00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:07.440
compared to the market cap.

00:53:08.641 --> 00:53:09.121
And by the way,

00:53:09.161 --> 00:53:10.782
I just looked up the token.

00:53:10.802 --> 00:53:11.822
I assume you know,

00:53:11.882 --> 00:53:13.601
it's almost 10x in the past

00:53:14.501 --> 00:53:16.202
like three weeks for some reason.

00:53:16.222 --> 00:53:16.342
Yeah.

00:53:18.903 --> 00:53:21.525
This is how the crypto industry works.

00:53:21.726 --> 00:53:23.327
I didn't plan to make a meme coin,

00:53:23.847 --> 00:53:25.528
and it's a meme coin now.

00:53:25.909 --> 00:53:27.369
The thing's hit over a

00:53:27.389 --> 00:53:28.530
billion dollars of value.

00:53:29.271 --> 00:53:29.692
It's nuts.

00:53:29.711 --> 00:53:31.853
I hope you still have some.

00:53:32.514 --> 00:53:34.815
You don't feel free to not comment on that,

00:53:34.856 --> 00:53:36.996
but I hope you still have some.

00:53:37.918 --> 00:53:39.278
I think a lot about DGEN.

00:53:39.338 --> 00:53:40.320
You know the DGEN token?

00:53:41.751 --> 00:53:43.152
which probably has a similar

00:53:43.211 --> 00:53:43.873
market cap now,

00:53:43.893 --> 00:53:44.833
but this is a token that

00:53:45.333 --> 00:53:47.134
was launched about six months ago.

00:53:47.153 --> 00:53:49.614
It kind of launched as a meme coin,

00:53:50.054 --> 00:53:51.675
but then it became in some

00:53:51.715 --> 00:53:53.876
ways the unofficial token

00:53:54.096 --> 00:53:55.755
of the Farcaster ecosystem,

00:53:55.795 --> 00:53:56.856
which is people who listen

00:53:56.876 --> 00:53:58.556
to the show know I talk about a lot is,

00:53:58.971 --> 00:54:00.371
this Web3 social network.

00:54:01.152 --> 00:54:05.574
And irrespective of all the

00:54:05.614 --> 00:54:06.976
cool things people are doing with Degen,

00:54:06.996 --> 00:54:08.637
because there's a Degen

00:54:08.677 --> 00:54:11.159
Layer 3 blockchain, there's a Degen,

00:54:11.179 --> 00:54:11.960
there's all these things

00:54:11.980 --> 00:54:12.940
people have built with Degen,

00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.740
there's all these apps you

00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:14.862
have to use Degen on.

00:54:15.342 --> 00:54:15.981
But still,

00:54:16.041 --> 00:54:17.322
when I look at all that activity,

00:54:17.362 --> 00:54:18.923
I'm like, it doesn't seem like much,

00:54:19.465 --> 00:54:20.885
but the market cap is

00:54:21.846 --> 00:54:24.027
probably similar to the People tokens,

00:54:24.047 --> 00:54:25.208
the Constitution DAO tokens,

00:54:25.268 --> 00:54:26.469
hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:54:26.489 --> 00:54:27.469
And

00:54:29.351 --> 00:54:29.710
I don't know.

00:54:29.851 --> 00:54:30.972
It's a head scratcher,

00:54:31.492 --> 00:54:33.233
literally and figuratively.

00:54:33.713 --> 00:54:35.293
It's just really hard to

00:54:35.514 --> 00:54:37.655
evaluate whether it should

00:54:37.695 --> 00:54:38.574
be worth that much.

00:54:38.936 --> 00:54:40.396
Could it be worth 10 times as much?

00:54:40.956 --> 00:54:42.876
Should it be worth 100 times less?

00:54:42.898 --> 00:54:45.059
It's just so hard to know.

00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:49.541
There's not a good framework for it yet.

00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:52.521
The best thing I've got for

00:54:52.541 --> 00:54:54.882
now is just what is the mind space?

00:54:54.922 --> 00:54:55.664
What's the mental share?

00:54:56.085 --> 00:54:57.085
People are thinking about it

00:54:57.126 --> 00:54:57.786
enormous amount.

00:54:58.067 --> 00:54:59.188
People are using it.

00:54:59.708 --> 00:55:00.489
People are tipping in it.

00:55:01.070 --> 00:55:02.992
And people are constantly referencing it.

00:55:03.393 --> 00:55:04.313
It's on people's minds.

00:55:04.373 --> 00:55:06.835
And so to them, it has some type of value.

00:55:07.237 --> 00:55:08.518
If someone's willing to pay for it,

00:55:09.298 --> 00:55:09.719
there's a price.

00:55:10.864 --> 00:55:11.184
Yeah.

00:55:11.704 --> 00:55:12.186
Interesting.

00:55:14.085 --> 00:55:15.947
It reminds me a little bit of celebrity.

00:55:16.206 --> 00:55:18.208
Like you have these like,

00:55:18.728 --> 00:55:19.849
I want to put like air

00:55:19.889 --> 00:55:20.989
quotes around celebrity.

00:55:21.389 --> 00:55:21.628
You know,

00:55:21.648 --> 00:55:23.150
someone's on like a reality TV

00:55:23.170 --> 00:55:25.090
show one time, like literally one time.

00:55:25.530 --> 00:55:26.951
And then for the rest of their life,

00:55:27.032 --> 00:55:28.532
they can go on talk shows.

00:55:28.592 --> 00:55:30.992
They can get speaking arrangements,

00:55:31.333 --> 00:55:31.652
you know,

00:55:31.672 --> 00:55:33.753
you get paid to show up at a

00:55:33.793 --> 00:55:37.815
club and dance, you know, it's, and now,

00:55:38.235 --> 00:55:40.416
so you do, you have one, you do one meme.

00:55:40.963 --> 00:55:42.324
you're involved in one thing

00:55:42.364 --> 00:55:44.186
that gets meme value and

00:55:44.206 --> 00:55:45.347
you potentially have a

00:55:45.447 --> 00:55:48.708
lifetime of credit for it.

00:55:48.789 --> 00:55:49.889
At least as long as there's

00:55:49.929 --> 00:55:51.451
a token involved, right?

00:55:51.550 --> 00:55:52.452
As long as there's a token

00:55:52.492 --> 00:55:54.452
related to your meme and it

00:55:54.472 --> 00:55:55.514
gets big enough and you

00:55:55.534 --> 00:55:56.494
hold some of the tokens,

00:55:57.195 --> 00:55:59.195
maybe it's a lifetime of income even,

00:55:59.755 --> 00:56:00.117
you know,

00:56:00.137 --> 00:56:02.998
in a way that already exists in

00:56:03.018 --> 00:56:04.518
the celebrity industry,

00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:07.621
but maybe new to tech and

00:56:08.242 --> 00:56:09.762
organizations and, you know,

00:56:10.795 --> 00:56:11.115
Yeah.

00:56:12.016 --> 00:56:12.456
Entirely.

00:56:12.476 --> 00:56:13.456
And some of these

00:56:13.476 --> 00:56:14.657
celebrities are very good

00:56:14.876 --> 00:56:18.338
at rolling awareness into business.

00:56:18.378 --> 00:56:19.117
And then they make a lot of

00:56:19.137 --> 00:56:20.737
really good business decisions about it.

00:56:20.797 --> 00:56:21.577
I mean,

00:56:21.898 --> 00:56:23.518
the Kardashians are probably one of

00:56:23.539 --> 00:56:24.498
the most notable example

00:56:26.018 --> 00:56:27.139
have earned billions of dollars,

00:56:27.539 --> 00:56:28.519
created billions of dollars

00:56:28.559 --> 00:56:30.820
for themselves through the,

00:56:31.019 --> 00:56:32.380
the original thing was Kim

00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:33.581
Kardashian got public,

00:56:34.440 --> 00:56:36.382
got publicly a bunch of

00:56:36.422 --> 00:56:38.302
public publicity because of a sex tape.

00:56:38.998 --> 00:56:40.679
And after that, they had a TV show.

00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:41.780
And after that, they had music.

00:56:42.041 --> 00:56:44.463
I mean, they had all these brands,

00:56:44.483 --> 00:56:45.003
all these companies,

00:56:45.023 --> 00:56:46.846
and they've done a good job building it.

00:56:47.146 --> 00:56:48.786
But it started as originally

00:56:49.027 --> 00:56:50.849
essentially meme, a bunch of publicity.

00:56:51.704 --> 00:56:52.304
It's incredible.

00:56:53.045 --> 00:56:53.704
All right.

00:56:53.985 --> 00:56:57.967
Let's go back to coming out

00:56:57.987 --> 00:57:00.030
of Constitution DAO and

00:57:00.090 --> 00:57:02.851
leading up to working on mezzanine today,

00:57:02.891 --> 00:57:04.371
which I want to talk more about, too.

00:57:04.472 --> 00:57:06.634
But I'm curious about your

00:57:06.673 --> 00:57:07.675
journey in between.

00:57:07.775 --> 00:57:08.916
Actually, not just your journey,

00:57:08.976 --> 00:57:09.815
but if you could reflect

00:57:09.856 --> 00:57:11.157
for us on the journey of

00:57:11.237 --> 00:57:14.318
the DAO industry over the past few years,

00:57:14.539 --> 00:57:15.940
if that's fair to ask.

00:57:17.320 --> 00:57:18.342
What's your journey been and

00:57:18.382 --> 00:57:19.322
what has the journey been

00:57:19.463 --> 00:57:21.143
for the industry and for DAOs?

00:57:21.804 --> 00:57:24.706
in the few years since constitution doubt.

00:57:26.288 --> 00:57:26.528
Yeah.

00:57:27.570 --> 00:57:29.652
So there's a couple of

00:57:29.692 --> 00:57:31.833
charts that actually I'll send your way.

00:57:31.893 --> 00:57:33.255
We can throw into the show

00:57:33.295 --> 00:57:34.215
notes so people can access.

00:57:35.782 --> 00:57:36.842
Electric Capital puts out

00:57:36.862 --> 00:57:38.523
this great developer report every year.

00:57:39.764 --> 00:57:41.463
And one of the things they

00:57:41.523 --> 00:57:43.244
charted was DAO participation,

00:57:43.264 --> 00:57:43.885
DAO activity.

00:57:44.485 --> 00:57:46.505
And this was something that

00:57:46.525 --> 00:57:48.425
they definitely tracked during 2021,

00:57:48.425 --> 00:57:48.485
2022.

00:57:48.485 --> 00:57:49.146
I think during 2023,

00:57:49.146 --> 00:57:49.666
they might have stopped

00:57:49.686 --> 00:57:50.405
doing it because DAO

00:57:50.445 --> 00:57:52.146
activity largely started declining.

00:57:52.166 --> 00:57:52.527
And they just said,

00:57:52.547 --> 00:57:53.527
we're not going to follow this metric.

00:57:54.726 --> 00:57:56.148
But it was really funny.

00:57:56.168 --> 00:57:57.927
There's literally this inflection point.

00:57:58.487 --> 00:58:00.128
in November 2021,

00:58:00.128 --> 00:58:00.789
with the measure of DAO

00:58:00.809 --> 00:58:02.110
activity is going up steadily,

00:58:02.389 --> 00:58:03.250
and there's this kink point,

00:58:03.690 --> 00:58:04.471
and it just goes up.

00:58:04.931 --> 00:58:06.072
And it was Constitution DAO.

00:58:06.452 --> 00:58:08.012
And so we saw this mass

00:58:08.492 --> 00:58:10.213
creation of organizations afterwards,

00:58:10.253 --> 00:58:11.693
because we got into the

00:58:11.873 --> 00:58:13.155
Wall Street Journal, New York Times,

00:58:13.175 --> 00:58:13.614
New Yorker,

00:58:13.635 --> 00:58:14.335
everyone was talking about

00:58:14.356 --> 00:58:14.936
what was going on.

00:58:15.556 --> 00:58:16.737
And some people said, wow, DAO is like,

00:58:16.757 --> 00:58:17.317
this is cool.

00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:18.780
And they started copying and

00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:19.481
pasting them all, right?

00:58:19.541 --> 00:58:21.601
We had DAOs for purchasing

00:58:21.641 --> 00:58:22.322
basketball teams.

00:58:22.362 --> 00:58:24.023
We had DAOs for purchasing golf courses.

00:58:24.043 --> 00:58:26.023
We had DAOs for purchasing books,

00:58:26.483 --> 00:58:27.405
this kind of purchasing thing.

00:58:27.425 --> 00:58:28.324
Then people were saying, okay,

00:58:28.364 --> 00:58:29.826
we also have DAOs for

00:58:30.166 --> 00:58:31.306
schools and DAOs for

00:58:31.606 --> 00:58:32.947
biology and DAOs for cancer

00:58:32.967 --> 00:58:34.867
research and DAOs for this

00:58:34.967 --> 00:58:36.108
mass proliferation of them.

00:58:37.728 --> 00:58:38.688
And there was a lot of

00:58:38.708 --> 00:58:39.889
copying and pasting of the

00:58:39.929 --> 00:58:42.371
existing model rather than saying,

00:58:43.226 --> 00:58:44.606
for my particular use case,

00:58:45.266 --> 00:58:46.367
how do I take what's

00:58:46.487 --> 00:58:47.427
already been demonstrated

00:58:47.447 --> 00:58:50.027
to have success and modify

00:58:50.047 --> 00:58:51.369
it for my use case?

00:58:52.068 --> 00:58:53.969
And so I think we actually saw this really,

00:58:54.009 --> 00:58:55.809
really tough period now for

00:58:55.849 --> 00:58:57.070
the last two and a half or

00:58:57.110 --> 00:58:58.971
so years where people have

00:58:58.990 --> 00:59:00.291
been using models that are

00:59:00.692 --> 00:59:02.831
somewhat inadequate to

00:59:03.612 --> 00:59:04.992
exactly what they need and

00:59:05.032 --> 00:59:06.393
what exactly their use case is.

00:59:06.954 --> 00:59:08.054
A lot of DAOs have struggled

00:59:08.762 --> 00:59:10.443
A lot of DAOs had this initial burst,

00:59:10.503 --> 00:59:11.864
pop-up excitement, pop-up energy,

00:59:11.905 --> 00:59:12.545
enthusiasm,

00:59:12.585 --> 00:59:14.027
building up these large Discord servers.

00:59:15.547 --> 00:59:16.568
And then people are like, oh, yeah,

00:59:16.588 --> 00:59:17.309
what happened to them?

00:59:17.429 --> 00:59:18.369
What's going on anymore?

00:59:18.690 --> 00:59:19.429
What happened to the money?

00:59:19.449 --> 00:59:22.532
And this is, I think, on account of,

00:59:22.952 --> 00:59:24.052
do you have a model that

00:59:24.092 --> 00:59:27.034
matches well what you want to do?

00:59:27.054 --> 00:59:29.297
And in the last few years, especially...

00:59:30.396 --> 00:59:31.217
We've begun to see, like,

00:59:31.237 --> 00:59:32.137
there's a handful of DAOs

00:59:32.157 --> 00:59:33.298
that have done all things

00:59:33.338 --> 00:59:34.400
considered an excellent job, right?

00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:35.561
We talked about arbitrage

00:59:35.581 --> 00:59:38.202
from DAOs earlier, their DAO earlier.

00:59:38.603 --> 00:59:39.543
They might still be making

00:59:39.583 --> 00:59:40.786
decisions that I might view

00:59:40.826 --> 00:59:41.505
as suboptimal.

00:59:41.867 --> 00:59:43.608
Oh, no, we accidentally spent, you know,

00:59:44.128 --> 00:59:44.969
tens of millions of dollars

00:59:45.028 --> 00:59:46.291
more than we all originally

00:59:46.311 --> 00:59:47.231
agreed we were going to

00:59:47.251 --> 00:59:48.052
because we didn't double

00:59:48.132 --> 00:59:49.833
check what the proposal said, right?

00:59:49.853 --> 00:59:50.894
Like, crazy stuff like this.

00:59:52.155 --> 00:59:54.777
But at the same time, they're functional.

00:59:54.838 --> 00:59:55.458
They're developing and

00:59:55.478 --> 00:59:56.699
cultivating a great community.

00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:58.360
But I think that what we have to,

00:59:58.440 --> 00:59:58.820
as an industry,

00:59:58.840 --> 01:00:00.262
kind of be asking ourselves is,

01:00:00.302 --> 01:00:01.503
what are those really great examples?

01:00:01.583 --> 01:00:03.704
Where have things gone well?

01:00:04.465 --> 01:00:05.306
Why did they go well?

01:00:05.766 --> 01:00:07.086
And how do we emulate those things?

01:00:07.827 --> 01:00:09.748
And I think in many of these cases, right,

01:00:09.849 --> 01:00:11.309
it's have we thought a lot

01:00:11.349 --> 01:00:12.451
about the design structure?

01:00:13.378 --> 01:00:14.501
Do we have the ability to

01:00:14.780 --> 01:00:16.143
delegate spending power to

01:00:16.182 --> 01:00:17.565
people who can make good,

01:00:17.625 --> 01:00:18.545
thoughtful decisions?

01:00:19.007 --> 01:00:20.688
This is a question of capital allocation.

01:00:21.369 --> 01:00:21.971
I think those are some of

01:00:21.990 --> 01:00:22.972
the examples that are interesting.

01:00:23.152 --> 01:00:24.655
But everyone's got growing pains.

01:00:24.875 --> 01:00:26.538
MakerDAO has had a lot of growing pains,

01:00:26.557 --> 01:00:27.278
probably one of the largest,

01:00:27.318 --> 01:00:28.400
most successful DAOs out there.

01:00:30.295 --> 01:00:32.416
Even NounsDAO also, I mean,

01:00:32.436 --> 01:00:34.498
I think in 2022 was by a

01:00:34.518 --> 01:00:35.840
lot of measures and votes, like, you know,

01:00:35.860 --> 01:00:36.900
one of the most biggest and

01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:38.382
interesting DAOs out there.

01:00:38.621 --> 01:00:39.943
They literally had a schism,

01:00:40.123 --> 01:00:42.704
a literal split into two organizations,

01:00:42.764 --> 01:00:43.505
a hard fork.

01:00:43.585 --> 01:00:45.266
And now no one knows which

01:00:45.306 --> 01:00:45.967
was the original,

01:00:46.007 --> 01:00:47.208
which community are you part of?

01:00:47.648 --> 01:00:48.469
And there's different types

01:00:48.510 --> 01:00:49.110
of disagreements.

01:00:49.130 --> 01:00:50.931
So it's growing pains.

01:00:51.291 --> 01:00:52.333
I'd categorize the last few

01:00:52.393 --> 01:00:54.094
years as growing pains.

01:00:55.195 --> 01:00:57.436
And I think going into this next cycle,

01:00:58.157 --> 01:01:00.038
we're going to take a lot of those pains,

01:01:00.059 --> 01:01:02.019
a lot of those learnings and say,

01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:03.420
how do we be more robust?

01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:05.503
How do we approach this from more angles?

01:01:06.163 --> 01:01:07.164
And I think that's what I'm

01:01:07.204 --> 01:01:08.644
excited to see moving forward.

01:01:09.525 --> 01:01:10.266
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:11.306 --> 01:01:12.047
Yeah, it's awesome.

01:01:12.088 --> 01:01:12.248
Yeah,

01:01:12.268 --> 01:01:13.489
it reminds me again of just this

01:01:13.748 --> 01:01:14.769
concept of like,

01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:17.632
is the DAO just the governance layer,

01:01:18.012 --> 01:01:19.052
which would be one thing.

01:01:19.172 --> 01:01:20.193
But I think what most DAOs

01:01:20.233 --> 01:01:21.034
are actually trying to do

01:01:21.114 --> 01:01:22.715
is run entire organizations

01:01:23.195 --> 01:01:24.978
differently from before, right?

01:01:24.998 --> 01:01:26.179
Like if I think about my startup,

01:01:26.298 --> 01:01:27.119
the governance layer,

01:01:28.219 --> 01:01:29.139
is one of the least,

01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:30.681
it's like the least of my concerns.

01:01:30.740 --> 01:01:32.380
Now, of course, my investor might say,

01:01:32.420 --> 01:01:32.541
well,

01:01:32.581 --> 01:01:33.722
I care a lot about the governance layer.

01:01:33.742 --> 01:01:34.762
And of course it's important.

01:01:35.161 --> 01:01:35.983
But like,

01:01:36.242 --> 01:01:38.322
I know who the owners are and

01:01:39.284 --> 01:01:40.764
they pretty much have told me just do,

01:01:41.264 --> 01:01:42.085
you know, they trust me.

01:01:42.945 --> 01:01:44.204
And now I'm the CEO.

01:01:44.244 --> 01:01:45.346
Now I go run the company.

01:01:45.646 --> 01:01:46.925
And most of what I'm worried about,

01:01:46.945 --> 01:01:47.545
I think most of what

01:01:47.585 --> 01:01:49.106
they're worried about is not governance.

01:01:49.867 --> 01:01:52.387
it's the day-to-day the team

01:01:52.688 --> 01:01:55.068
team dynamics the strategy

01:01:55.128 --> 01:01:56.728
the plan the execution the

01:01:56.849 --> 01:01:59.190
operations you know all the

01:01:59.230 --> 01:02:00.329
things we're focused on to

01:02:00.369 --> 01:02:01.389
try to build a successful

01:02:01.429 --> 01:02:02.791
business are not on the

01:02:02.831 --> 01:02:04.971
governance layer um and so

01:02:05.010 --> 01:02:06.692
I just have to wonder you

01:02:06.731 --> 01:02:07.751
know if you have these

01:02:08.532 --> 01:02:10.813
these dows these organizations

01:02:11.693 --> 01:02:13.313
that are trying to be successful,

01:02:13.594 --> 01:02:14.815
but are focused almost

01:02:14.876 --> 01:02:16.677
entirely sometimes on governance,

01:02:17.438 --> 01:02:18.639
I feel like that's going to

01:02:18.679 --> 01:02:20.000
be a really big challenge for them.

01:02:22.181 --> 01:02:25.083
I think vision and purpose

01:02:25.844 --> 01:02:27.266
are super essential and

01:02:27.326 --> 01:02:28.646
oftentimes lacking in DAOs.

01:02:30.489 --> 01:02:32.371
Arbitrum or L2s might have a

01:02:32.911 --> 01:02:33.972
very clear vision,

01:02:34.032 --> 01:02:36.054
which is we want to be the

01:02:36.253 --> 01:02:37.534
L2 or the network 4X.

01:02:37.574 --> 01:02:37.655
And

01:02:40.284 --> 01:02:41.865
The way to get there is fairly clear.

01:02:42.367 --> 01:02:44.148
Grow users, grow adoption,

01:02:44.547 --> 01:02:47.289
have useful applications in your network.

01:02:48.090 --> 01:02:48.751
A lot of other DAOs,

01:02:48.771 --> 01:02:49.391
I think there's been kind

01:02:49.411 --> 01:02:51.452
of this nebulous vision

01:02:51.773 --> 01:02:52.554
that people actually don't

01:02:52.614 --> 01:02:53.635
know what they're getting behind.

01:02:53.655 --> 01:02:54.996
They don't know exactly what

01:02:55.016 --> 01:02:56.217
they're rallying efforts towards.

01:02:56.876 --> 01:02:57.637
One of the reasons I think

01:02:57.697 --> 01:02:58.418
Constitution DAO was

01:02:58.438 --> 01:03:00.480
successful was it could be

01:03:00.539 --> 01:03:03.661
explained in a very simple, basic mean.

01:03:04.730 --> 01:03:06.030
We're all going to buy the Constitution.

01:03:06.291 --> 01:03:07.751
People are like, all right, I'm in, right?

01:03:08.152 --> 01:03:09.494
It's very, very simple, right?

01:03:09.594 --> 01:03:12.356
It doesn't have to be necessarily a crazy,

01:03:12.416 --> 01:03:12.876
heady thing.

01:03:12.896 --> 01:03:15.358
It doesn't have to be a

01:03:15.398 --> 01:03:17.800
massive technological undertaking.

01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:19.101
But it needs to be very,

01:03:19.141 --> 01:03:20.262
very clear for people to be

01:03:20.541 --> 01:03:21.222
able to get behind.

01:03:21.322 --> 01:03:22.222
And I think that

01:03:22.302 --> 01:03:25.766
nebulousness is the doom of

01:03:26.146 --> 01:03:27.007
so many organizations.

01:03:27.931 --> 01:03:28.152
Yeah.

01:03:28.492 --> 01:03:28.692
Yeah.

01:03:29.233 --> 01:03:29.452
All right.

01:03:29.592 --> 01:03:29.972
So let's,

01:03:30.012 --> 01:03:31.434
let's continue following the story.

01:03:31.494 --> 01:03:33.675
So that's where DAOs have

01:03:33.695 --> 01:03:35.054
been over the past couple of years.

01:03:35.454 --> 01:03:37.016
And now you're working on a

01:03:37.056 --> 01:03:38.177
project called mezzanine.

01:03:39.717 --> 01:03:40.898
And I want to just reflect

01:03:40.918 --> 01:03:42.938
for a second on the state of DAO tooling.

01:03:42.978 --> 01:03:44.498
And I'm curious, you know, how,

01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:46.340
if you would agree and then

01:03:46.380 --> 01:03:48.661
where mezzanine fits into, into this, if,

01:03:48.820 --> 01:03:49.782
and I know you guys are

01:03:49.822 --> 01:03:50.742
looking a little more

01:03:50.782 --> 01:03:52.123
broadly or a different lens

01:03:52.202 --> 01:03:53.143
from the word DAO,

01:03:53.262 --> 01:03:54.364
but I think it's still fair

01:03:54.384 --> 01:03:55.943
to say it could be used as a DAO tool.

01:03:55.963 --> 01:03:56.605
Yeah.

01:03:57.204 --> 01:03:58.306
You know, if you had asked me,

01:03:58.326 --> 01:04:00.248
I think like six to 12 months ago,

01:04:00.268 --> 01:04:01.329
I probably would have told

01:04:01.389 --> 01:04:03.532
you that like last cycle,

01:04:03.552 --> 01:04:05.074
DAO tooling was not ready.

01:04:05.094 --> 01:04:06.436
It was just too hard to use.

01:04:06.956 --> 01:04:08.619
And and then now it's ready.

01:04:08.798 --> 01:04:09.519
And so we're going to see

01:04:09.539 --> 01:04:10.161
this like giant

01:04:10.201 --> 01:04:12.103
proliferation of DAOs and

01:04:12.143 --> 01:04:12.804
the tools are going to

01:04:12.844 --> 01:04:13.846
support them adequately.

01:04:14.445 --> 01:04:15.927
Now that a little more time has gone by,

01:04:15.947 --> 01:04:17.307
I would probably say that

01:04:17.668 --> 01:04:19.648
DAO tooling is not quite

01:04:19.688 --> 01:04:20.849
ready and that we haven't

01:04:20.889 --> 01:04:22.831
made as much progress as I expected.

01:04:23.351 --> 01:04:24.271
And that therefore,

01:04:24.452 --> 01:04:25.353
maybe it's going to be like

01:04:25.592 --> 01:04:27.833
one more cycle until like

01:04:27.853 --> 01:04:28.954
we're still very much at

01:04:28.974 --> 01:04:30.536
the experimentation stage.

01:04:31.096 --> 01:04:32.436
And like we've got to figure

01:04:32.496 --> 01:04:34.038
out how to make, you know,

01:04:34.177 --> 01:04:36.639
not only fund and make more DAO tools,

01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:38.601
but tools that are flexible enough to

01:04:39.641 --> 01:04:40.661
or fit for purpose,

01:04:40.762 --> 01:04:41.882
but have found a really

01:04:41.922 --> 01:04:42.943
good product market fit.

01:04:43.583 --> 01:04:45.545
And I'm just not sure we have that yet.

01:04:45.565 --> 01:04:45.764
I mean,

01:04:45.784 --> 01:04:46.804
there were some exciting DAO

01:04:46.824 --> 01:04:47.806
tooling projects that got

01:04:47.846 --> 01:04:49.306
shut down over the last year.

01:04:51.007 --> 01:04:52.289
So I'm curious,

01:04:52.829 --> 01:04:53.929
is that indeed the state of

01:04:53.969 --> 01:04:54.949
DAO tooling that we have a

01:04:55.010 --> 01:04:57.231
lot of progress still to go

01:04:57.311 --> 01:04:59.552
before we're ready to take

01:04:59.572 --> 01:05:00.472
DAOs mainstream?

01:05:01.173 --> 01:05:02.233
And then how are you

01:05:02.273 --> 01:05:03.815
participating in that space?

01:05:05.795 --> 01:05:05.976
Yeah.

01:05:07.981 --> 01:05:08.942
we got a long ways to go.

01:05:09.402 --> 01:05:10.202
We got a long ways to go.

01:05:12.603 --> 01:05:15.126
If we're making like the internet analogy,

01:05:15.206 --> 01:05:15.385
right?

01:05:15.447 --> 01:05:15.887
This is like,

01:05:16.650 --> 01:05:18.550
late 90s actually there was

01:05:18.570 --> 01:05:20.070
a really great uh tweet

01:05:20.510 --> 01:05:23.231
from uh toby luke from uh

01:05:23.431 --> 01:05:25.393
shopify the other day and

01:05:26.032 --> 01:05:27.373
he shopify if you're not

01:05:27.393 --> 01:05:28.153
familiar right it's a

01:05:28.574 --> 01:05:30.554
e-commerce platform that is

01:05:30.574 --> 01:05:31.954
you know was started very

01:05:32.014 --> 01:05:32.914
early on he was trying to

01:05:32.954 --> 01:05:34.655
sell snowboards online and

01:05:34.695 --> 01:05:35.795
realized okay I can help

01:05:35.835 --> 01:05:36.637
other people start their

01:05:36.697 --> 01:05:38.177
online stores and when he

01:05:38.197 --> 01:05:39.538
was going out to to uh

01:05:39.577 --> 01:05:40.757
raise money the common thing was

01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:43.860
how many people are going to

01:05:43.880 --> 01:05:44.940
be selling things online?

01:05:45.021 --> 01:05:46.242
How big are these internet

01:05:46.322 --> 01:05:47.362
businesses going to be?

01:05:47.443 --> 01:05:49.704
How big is e-commerce going to be?

01:05:50.385 --> 01:05:51.806
And people are still deeply

01:05:51.846 --> 01:05:53.266
skeptical of Amazon.

01:05:53.987 --> 01:05:55.668
And certainly like this type

01:05:55.688 --> 01:05:56.188
of model where he's

01:05:56.208 --> 01:05:56.829
supposed to be helping

01:05:56.909 --> 01:05:58.210
other people build these things.

01:06:00.992 --> 01:06:02.452
And the criticism he got from people was,

01:06:02.472 --> 01:06:04.094
well, there's only like a couple dozen,

01:06:04.134 --> 01:06:04.655
maybe a couple,

01:06:04.914 --> 01:06:05.896
maybe a couple hundred of

01:06:05.956 --> 01:06:06.695
these e-commerce stores.

01:06:06.715 --> 01:06:07.876
It just can't be that big of a market.

01:06:07.896 --> 01:06:09.117
You're not going to make that much money.

01:06:09.969 --> 01:06:11.871
people didn't believe that

01:06:11.951 --> 01:06:13.192
business was going online.

01:06:13.552 --> 01:06:14.092
And right now,

01:06:14.112 --> 01:06:15.172
a lot of people do not

01:06:15.213 --> 01:06:16.554
believe that organizations

01:06:17.034 --> 01:06:17.894
are coming on chain.

01:06:18.635 --> 01:06:21.338
It is inevitable, but it takes a long time,

01:06:21.478 --> 01:06:22.719
takes a long adoption cycle,

01:06:22.778 --> 01:06:23.358
and there's a lot of

01:06:23.418 --> 01:06:25.121
primitives that need to

01:06:25.161 --> 01:06:26.402
exist and need to be

01:06:26.442 --> 01:06:28.282
adopted in order for them to occur.

01:06:29.864 --> 01:06:30.965
Organizations are tough, right?

01:06:31.365 --> 01:06:32.746
And especially if you start dealing with,

01:06:33.126 --> 01:06:33.226
right,

01:06:33.246 --> 01:06:34.708
we talk about the legal issues that

01:06:34.967 --> 01:06:35.628
DAOs have had.

01:06:37.449 --> 01:06:38.090
If you want to deal with

01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:40.300
The SEC, if you want to do a FinCEN,

01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:41.061
you need to have identity.

01:06:41.081 --> 01:06:41.742
That means we have to have

01:06:41.882 --> 01:06:42.641
identity products and

01:06:42.661 --> 01:06:43.523
identity primitives.

01:06:44.083 --> 01:06:45.264
But we care about privacy,

01:06:45.284 --> 01:06:45.724
so we need to have

01:06:45.764 --> 01:06:47.184
zero-knowledge identity

01:06:47.204 --> 01:06:48.585
that's privacy-preserving, right?

01:06:48.605 --> 01:06:49.865
So this takes time to build.

01:06:50.425 --> 01:06:51.606
Identity is one category.

01:06:51.706 --> 01:06:51.887
Okay,

01:06:51.927 --> 01:06:53.487
now we also need to have the actual

01:06:53.588 --> 01:06:55.568
logic that facilitates the

01:06:55.628 --> 01:06:57.230
movement of money between these things,

01:06:57.489 --> 01:06:57.650
right?

01:06:57.931 --> 01:07:00.092
That's recreating what has

01:07:00.152 --> 01:07:01.552
taken decades to build in

01:07:01.592 --> 01:07:02.333
Web2 software and

01:07:02.373 --> 01:07:03.373
traditional financial rails.

01:07:03.994 --> 01:07:04.454
Now it needs to get

01:07:04.514 --> 01:07:05.914
translated over into Web3 rails.

01:07:08.036 --> 01:07:09.996
We might have some of the verbs of finance,

01:07:10.056 --> 01:07:12.077
lending, borrowing, trading, swapping.

01:07:12.938 --> 01:07:15.498
But when you think about the

01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:18.300
traditional finance space, it's really,

01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:18.760
really big.

01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:20.601
And so you've got the investing world,

01:07:20.641 --> 01:07:21.202
but then you also have a

01:07:21.242 --> 01:07:22.922
whole enterprise SaaS world

01:07:22.963 --> 01:07:23.722
that touches everything.

01:07:24.284 --> 01:07:26.525
Any part of like a company, nonprofit,

01:07:26.585 --> 01:07:28.927
philanthropies, organizational structure,

01:07:29.027 --> 01:07:29.168
right?

01:07:29.228 --> 01:07:30.027
You got all these tools for

01:07:30.108 --> 01:07:31.148
billing and fundraising and

01:07:31.208 --> 01:07:33.311
payroll and for, you know,

01:07:33.391 --> 01:07:34.271
raising capital,

01:07:34.731 --> 01:07:35.711
anything that touches your money.

01:07:35.952 --> 01:07:37.773
There's software that got

01:07:37.813 --> 01:07:39.215
written as logic and it's

01:07:39.315 --> 01:07:40.416
built for old rails.

01:07:40.936 --> 01:07:42.918
All that stuff needs to get translated.

01:07:44.097 --> 01:07:45.278
So the problem that we face

01:07:45.378 --> 01:07:46.960
is when you only have a little bit of it,

01:07:47.019 --> 01:07:47.121
right?

01:07:47.141 --> 01:07:47.460
And someone says,

01:07:47.481 --> 01:07:48.360
I'm going to go launch a DAO.

01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:49.601
They go, oh my gosh,

01:07:49.943 --> 01:07:50.862
I'm used to having all this

01:07:50.902 --> 01:07:51.804
great software for running

01:07:51.824 --> 01:07:52.384
my organization.

01:07:52.423 --> 01:07:53.105
I've got nothing.

01:07:54.072 --> 01:07:55.393
that the lack of software

01:07:55.474 --> 01:07:56.474
creates inadequate

01:07:56.494 --> 01:07:58.235
organizations that are less

01:07:58.275 --> 01:07:59.916
empowered and have worse tools.

01:08:00.536 --> 01:08:02.097
And then those organizations,

01:08:02.396 --> 01:08:03.177
we saw over the last few years,

01:08:03.518 --> 01:08:04.438
sometimes struggle.

01:08:05.358 --> 01:08:06.438
And the lack of tooling

01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:07.380
means that people go,

01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:08.740
I'm not sure if this is

01:08:08.780 --> 01:08:09.481
really going to be a thing.

01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:10.762
So it is a struggle,

01:08:10.802 --> 01:08:12.603
but the arrow of progress

01:08:12.762 --> 01:08:13.402
and the direction of

01:08:13.463 --> 01:08:15.304
progress is very much inevitable.

01:08:15.324 --> 01:08:16.064
And what we have now,

01:08:16.104 --> 01:08:16.944
the cycle is much better.

01:08:17.625 --> 01:08:18.204
I do think,

01:08:19.166 --> 01:08:20.386
this might be unpopular to some people,

01:08:20.947 --> 01:08:22.106
a lot of bad tools

01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:25.322
dow tooling got funded

01:08:25.403 --> 01:08:26.724
during the bull market when

01:08:26.743 --> 01:08:28.404
I say bad stuff that's not

01:08:28.465 --> 01:08:30.306
sensible teams that were

01:08:30.346 --> 01:08:32.708
not good products that were

01:08:32.769 --> 01:08:34.590
not good products that were

01:08:34.909 --> 01:08:36.652
not sensible and so when

01:08:36.671 --> 01:08:38.212
you build when you found a

01:08:38.233 --> 01:08:39.033
whole wave of things during

01:08:39.073 --> 01:08:40.395
a bull market during uh

01:08:40.435 --> 01:08:42.957
this period of uh great excitement

01:08:43.863 --> 01:08:45.104
you don't have the idea of

01:08:45.144 --> 01:08:46.384
how do I make this really durable?

01:08:46.604 --> 01:08:47.725
How do I make this really useful?

01:08:47.984 --> 01:08:49.225
How do I make this really sustainable?

01:08:49.824 --> 01:08:50.805
And I think that in the last

01:08:50.845 --> 01:08:51.206
couple of years,

01:08:51.326 --> 01:08:53.226
a lot of interesting things

01:08:53.266 --> 01:08:54.106
have started getting built

01:08:54.506 --> 01:08:55.948
and we're going to see the fruits of that,

01:08:56.587 --> 01:08:57.148
but it takes time.

01:08:59.048 --> 01:09:00.550
So what is it that you guys

01:09:00.590 --> 01:09:01.470
are doing at Mezzanine?

01:09:01.489 --> 01:09:03.110
What's your approach?

01:09:03.211 --> 01:09:04.530
What kind of tooling are you building?

01:09:06.631 --> 01:09:08.733
So what we're doing is

01:09:08.773 --> 01:09:10.373
essentially providing a

01:09:10.913 --> 01:09:13.435
marketplace for these types of tools.

01:09:15.020 --> 01:09:15.659
By marketplace,

01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:17.680
I mean it has a unified

01:09:17.740 --> 01:09:20.141
interface and it allows

01:09:20.202 --> 01:09:21.063
someone to connect and know

01:09:21.082 --> 01:09:22.682
something is safe and say, okay,

01:09:23.182 --> 01:09:24.703
we've started an organization,

01:09:24.724 --> 01:09:25.644
maybe we've got tokens,

01:09:25.663 --> 01:09:26.484
maybe we've got governance.

01:09:26.864 --> 01:09:28.445
All that aside, that's the governance,

01:09:28.466 --> 01:09:29.945
you've started your organization.

01:09:30.345 --> 01:09:30.947
Now you have the question,

01:09:31.466 --> 01:09:33.608
what is our organization doing?

01:09:33.627 --> 01:09:36.488
And what tools do we need to do that?

01:09:36.868 --> 01:09:38.168
So these are the questions

01:09:38.289 --> 01:09:39.869
of how does an organization

01:09:39.909 --> 01:09:40.911
have to operate day to day?

01:09:41.190 --> 01:09:43.252
The billing, the payroll, the fundraising,

01:09:43.372 --> 01:09:44.131
the invoicing.

01:09:44.881 --> 01:09:46.121
And so what this allows you

01:09:46.140 --> 01:09:46.662
to do is it lets your

01:09:46.681 --> 01:09:48.481
organization start on blank slate and say,

01:09:48.561 --> 01:09:49.742
OK, I'm an event DAO.

01:09:49.921 --> 01:09:52.082
We're hosting ETH DC 2025,

01:09:52.082 --> 01:09:55.423
and we're going to need to issue tickets.

01:09:55.863 --> 01:09:56.823
Let me use this ticketing app.

01:09:57.224 --> 01:09:57.804
We're going to need to have

01:09:57.823 --> 01:09:58.604
a donation portal.

01:09:58.704 --> 01:10:00.085
Let me add a donation portal.

01:10:00.425 --> 01:10:02.506
We're going to need to give

01:10:02.546 --> 01:10:04.826
people maybe refunds at the end.

01:10:04.886 --> 01:10:06.926
Let's add a refund mechanism.

01:10:07.447 --> 01:10:09.029
We're going to need to, you know,

01:10:09.310 --> 01:10:10.572
so you can start building

01:10:10.811 --> 01:10:11.653
your own organization.

01:10:11.672 --> 01:10:12.274
We're going to need to

01:10:12.373 --> 01:10:13.536
visualize our treasury.

01:10:13.576 --> 01:10:14.636
We're going to need a manager's treasury.

01:10:14.657 --> 01:10:15.578
Let's add that tool.

01:10:16.490 --> 01:10:17.291
That dashboard is going to

01:10:17.310 --> 01:10:18.171
look entirely different

01:10:18.211 --> 01:10:19.551
than someone else who's running, say,

01:10:19.572 --> 01:10:21.692
a developer guild, right?

01:10:22.131 --> 01:10:23.332
Me and 40 other developers

01:10:23.353 --> 01:10:24.592
start building some great software.

01:10:24.792 --> 01:10:25.613
We need to pay each other,

01:10:25.632 --> 01:10:26.853
distribute money to ourselves.

01:10:27.153 --> 01:10:28.434
We need to invoice our clients,

01:10:28.533 --> 01:10:29.194
receive money.

01:10:29.713 --> 01:10:30.934
So all these activities are

01:10:30.953 --> 01:10:31.394
coming on chain,

01:10:31.413 --> 01:10:31.914
but all of them are going

01:10:31.935 --> 01:10:32.475
to look different.

01:10:32.795 --> 01:10:33.414
But you should be able to

01:10:33.475 --> 01:10:34.835
choose between the suite of

01:10:34.895 --> 01:10:36.555
tools and services to build

01:10:36.576 --> 01:10:37.395
the organization that is

01:10:37.416 --> 01:10:38.136
exactly right for you.

01:10:39.735 --> 01:10:40.037
Awesome.

01:10:40.136 --> 01:10:41.338
So mezzanine is a place

01:10:41.399 --> 01:10:43.561
where you plug in as kind

01:10:43.582 --> 01:10:44.443
of like your core,

01:10:44.944 --> 01:10:47.146
and then you find all the

01:10:47.287 --> 01:10:48.469
apps that you need on the

01:10:48.509 --> 01:10:49.470
mezzanine marketplace,

01:10:49.511 --> 01:10:50.953
whether that's payroll, billing,

01:10:51.012 --> 01:10:53.115
invoicing, fundraising, et cetera.

01:10:53.136 --> 01:10:54.939
That's correct.

01:10:56.417 --> 01:10:57.438
So what does that

01:10:58.578 --> 01:10:59.738
environment look like right

01:10:59.779 --> 01:11:01.819
now in terms of apps to

01:11:01.859 --> 01:11:03.100
plug into the marketplace?

01:11:03.440 --> 01:11:06.162
Are you finding that people

01:11:06.202 --> 01:11:07.242
have built really good

01:11:07.282 --> 01:11:09.182
solutions for a lot of these problems?

01:11:09.302 --> 01:11:10.804
Are they all under development?

01:11:13.045 --> 01:11:15.006
Do you wonder if you may

01:11:15.046 --> 01:11:16.106
have to build some yourself?

01:11:18.109 --> 01:11:19.010
It's a mixed bag.

01:11:19.229 --> 01:11:20.572
There are some good tools

01:11:20.851 --> 01:11:21.993
that have been built.

01:11:22.134 --> 01:11:23.975
There's some that are in the works.

01:11:24.475 --> 01:11:25.597
And there's some that have

01:11:25.757 --> 01:11:26.658
yet to be built and I

01:11:26.819 --> 01:11:28.180
imagine are going to be on the way.

01:11:29.702 --> 01:11:30.703
The way we imagine this

01:11:30.724 --> 01:11:32.466
marketplace is we're not

01:11:32.485 --> 01:11:33.225
going to start with the

01:11:33.266 --> 01:11:34.006
assumption that anyone's

01:11:34.027 --> 01:11:34.488
just going to be sick.

01:11:37.032 --> 01:11:37.612
for distribution,

01:11:37.631 --> 01:11:38.672
we're going to use you for monetization,

01:11:38.712 --> 01:11:39.733
get our product in people's hands.

01:11:40.073 --> 01:11:40.934
Let's start by saying,

01:11:40.974 --> 01:11:42.413
let's build a basic product

01:11:42.434 --> 01:11:44.314
for batch payments, for invoicing,

01:11:44.335 --> 01:11:44.895
for these things.

01:11:45.335 --> 01:11:46.636
But if we're doing our job

01:11:46.676 --> 01:11:47.536
as a marketplace,

01:11:48.115 --> 01:11:49.796
any of the individual apps

01:11:49.877 --> 01:11:50.716
that we're starting with

01:11:50.777 --> 01:11:52.358
and letting users start

01:11:52.377 --> 01:11:53.917
with will be supplanted and

01:11:53.938 --> 01:11:56.918
replaced by a multitude of

01:11:57.038 --> 01:11:57.960
other options that are

01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:00.020
narrowly specific for a

01:12:00.081 --> 01:12:01.661
particular use case, particular function,

01:12:01.720 --> 01:12:03.622
for particular organizational type.

01:12:04.141 --> 01:12:05.462
And that's the world that we

01:12:05.502 --> 01:12:06.842
all want to live in that says, oh,

01:12:06.922 --> 01:12:07.802
I'm a grant counsel.

01:12:07.943 --> 01:12:09.203
I need a specific tool for

01:12:09.243 --> 01:12:10.663
compensating people in a

01:12:11.024 --> 01:12:11.963
nonprofit like way,

01:12:12.323 --> 01:12:13.805
or I need a way for distributing grants.

01:12:13.864 --> 01:12:14.045
Right.

01:12:14.845 --> 01:12:16.385
All these things are very, very specific.

01:12:16.444 --> 01:12:17.985
Let's just start with very general tools.

01:12:19.626 --> 01:12:20.565
The thing that is hard about

01:12:20.605 --> 01:12:21.246
this and something that's

01:12:21.265 --> 01:12:21.907
very important to us,

01:12:21.947 --> 01:12:24.006
we want to do it with a

01:12:24.766 --> 01:12:25.547
unified interface.

01:12:25.587 --> 01:12:28.068
So say that when you connect

01:12:28.587 --> 01:12:30.088
your safe that represents

01:12:30.109 --> 01:12:30.828
your organization,

01:12:31.542 --> 01:12:31.782
Right now,

01:12:31.822 --> 01:12:32.542
bouncing between a million

01:12:32.582 --> 01:12:33.403
different applications,

01:12:33.443 --> 01:12:34.143
you've got these problems

01:12:34.162 --> 01:12:35.042
of access control,

01:12:35.063 --> 01:12:36.644
you've got problems of permissioning,

01:12:37.104 --> 01:12:39.284
and just simply differences

01:12:39.324 --> 01:12:40.086
of interfaces.

01:12:40.105 --> 01:12:41.065
You also have fragmentation

01:12:41.086 --> 01:12:41.865
between chains.

01:12:42.886 --> 01:12:44.087
So if you solve a lot of that and say,

01:12:44.127 --> 01:12:46.127
look, it's a simple interface.

01:12:46.768 --> 01:12:47.649
You have to think about chains.

01:12:47.668 --> 01:12:48.668
You have to think about networks.

01:12:48.708 --> 01:12:49.448
You have to think about

01:12:49.748 --> 01:12:50.869
permissioning and access control.

01:12:51.210 --> 01:12:52.109
It's done at the base layer.

01:12:52.711 --> 01:12:53.970
So any of the tools that are

01:12:53.990 --> 01:12:56.051
built here all exist kind

01:12:56.091 --> 01:12:57.632
of at that same starting point,

01:12:57.893 --> 01:13:00.514
that same initial point.

01:13:01.177 --> 01:13:01.878
So the only thing that those

01:13:01.899 --> 01:13:02.539
applications have to worry

01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:03.820
about is what's the actual logic?

01:13:04.181 --> 01:13:05.063
What's the actual interface?

01:13:05.462 --> 01:13:07.445
Use our SDK and make yourself available.

01:13:07.865 --> 01:13:08.567
Use this to distribute your

01:13:08.587 --> 01:13:09.448
product to many,

01:13:09.467 --> 01:13:10.689
many on-chain organizations.

01:13:11.979 --> 01:13:13.280
So does doing that require

01:13:13.341 --> 01:13:14.601
you to create some kind of

01:13:14.721 --> 01:13:17.604
standard interfaces around the data?

01:13:18.085 --> 01:13:20.287
Like if I assume there might,

01:13:20.367 --> 01:13:21.648
you might need to connect

01:13:22.628 --> 01:13:25.211
an invoicing with a payroll,

01:13:25.311 --> 01:13:27.613
with a financial system

01:13:27.753 --> 01:13:28.774
that may all be different

01:13:28.835 --> 01:13:30.176
components in the marketplace,

01:13:30.235 --> 01:13:31.317
but they may want to be

01:13:31.337 --> 01:13:32.457
able to talk to each other.

01:13:32.478 --> 01:13:35.180
How do you make it so that

01:13:35.220 --> 01:13:36.822
they can talk to each other?

01:13:38.962 --> 01:13:39.524
Great question.

01:13:40.425 --> 01:13:41.706
The nature of smart

01:13:41.746 --> 01:13:43.426
contracts and on-chain data

01:13:43.985 --> 01:13:45.926
makes it a lot easier for

01:13:45.966 --> 01:13:48.028
these things to interact with each other.

01:13:49.988 --> 01:13:51.770
If I were to make the Web2 analogy,

01:13:52.689 --> 01:13:53.970
I've got Web2 products that

01:13:54.270 --> 01:13:55.990
intentionally build walled

01:13:56.011 --> 01:13:57.332
gardens and gated moats

01:13:57.391 --> 01:13:58.351
because that's how they

01:13:58.391 --> 01:13:59.292
defend their business model.

01:14:00.132 --> 01:14:02.134
Web3, I can read that on-chain data.

01:14:02.314 --> 01:14:03.113
I can spin up a new

01:14:03.173 --> 01:14:04.014
interface for that exact

01:14:04.033 --> 01:14:05.255
same smart contract and say,

01:14:05.996 --> 01:14:06.997
I don't like your interface anymore.

01:14:07.037 --> 01:14:08.037
I'm going to use this other one,

01:14:08.337 --> 01:14:09.338
but I get to keep my

01:14:09.418 --> 01:14:11.020
contract that I instantiated.

01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:12.220
I get to keep my software.

01:14:12.542 --> 01:14:13.863
So there's not platform lock-in.

01:14:13.882 --> 01:14:14.904
So there's this big,

01:14:14.984 --> 01:14:16.404
big difference here about

01:14:16.465 --> 01:14:20.328
that underlying structural incentive.

01:14:22.689 --> 01:14:23.149
Interesting.

01:14:23.189 --> 01:14:25.492
So just because smart... My

01:14:25.532 --> 01:14:29.154
initial thinking is anytime

01:14:29.175 --> 01:14:30.296
you're building software,

01:14:30.577 --> 01:14:31.757
you get to decide what...

01:14:33.990 --> 01:14:35.332
effectively API to make

01:14:35.372 --> 01:14:36.996
available to the world, right?

01:14:37.036 --> 01:14:37.676
Whether you're building a

01:14:37.697 --> 01:14:38.497
smart contract and

01:14:38.537 --> 01:14:39.479
technically maybe

01:14:39.519 --> 01:14:40.661
everything's available to

01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:41.722
the world by default,

01:14:42.182 --> 01:14:42.963
or you're building a

01:14:43.265 --> 01:14:43.945
traditional piece of

01:14:43.985 --> 01:14:45.889
software where you are a little more like,

01:14:45.929 --> 01:14:46.069
look,

01:14:46.088 --> 01:14:47.872
unless you specifically build the API,

01:14:47.931 --> 01:14:48.993
no one will be able to touch

01:14:49.634 --> 01:14:51.614
that function you want to

01:14:51.635 --> 01:14:52.694
make available but still in

01:14:52.734 --> 01:14:53.956
both cases you're choosing

01:14:53.975 --> 01:14:56.117
you know what functions to

01:14:56.157 --> 01:14:57.777
make available from the

01:14:57.817 --> 01:14:59.438
software to other software

01:15:00.158 --> 01:15:01.439
and I would think that

01:15:01.458 --> 01:15:03.019
still has to be done in a

01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:06.381
careful and thoughtful way

01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:07.480
if it's going to be easy

01:15:07.520 --> 01:15:08.181
for other people to

01:15:08.221 --> 01:15:09.381
interact with your software

01:15:09.801 --> 01:15:10.582
is it just that smart

01:15:10.622 --> 01:15:11.722
contracts because by

01:15:11.783 --> 01:15:12.943
default they're public

01:15:13.323 --> 01:15:15.163
people are forced to build

01:15:15.224 --> 01:15:17.664
in a way that makes them interoperable um

01:15:21.889 --> 01:15:23.189
So yes and no, right?

01:15:23.270 --> 01:15:26.452
So if I build something

01:15:26.471 --> 01:15:28.113
that's built off smart contracts,

01:15:28.833 --> 01:15:29.875
but the most useful parts

01:15:29.914 --> 01:15:31.655
of my application are

01:15:31.716 --> 01:15:32.917
actually things that

01:15:33.056 --> 01:15:34.297
involve off-chain data and

01:15:34.337 --> 01:15:35.238
off-chain information,

01:15:35.259 --> 01:15:36.920
that organization probably

01:15:36.939 --> 01:15:37.860
still has some type of

01:15:38.020 --> 01:15:39.061
traditional web two mode

01:15:39.122 --> 01:15:41.363
because that information is locked in.

01:15:43.104 --> 01:15:45.105
If you solve that base layer and you say,

01:15:45.386 --> 01:15:45.567
look,

01:15:46.186 --> 01:15:47.488
the basic building blocks of like

01:15:47.507 --> 01:15:49.949
your organization's identity, existence,

01:15:50.850 --> 01:15:52.110
access control, permissioning,

01:15:52.150 --> 01:15:53.692
and spending is done here,

01:15:54.771 --> 01:15:57.073
then you can allow the DAP

01:15:57.092 --> 01:16:01.113
to only focus on the logic and rationale.

01:16:01.134 --> 01:16:03.475
So all those financials are

01:16:03.494 --> 01:16:04.975
still flowing through the same treasury.

01:16:05.555 --> 01:16:05.935
All of a sudden,

01:16:05.956 --> 01:16:07.416
it becomes theoretically

01:16:07.435 --> 01:16:09.817
quite easy to generate instantaneous live,

01:16:10.037 --> 01:16:12.818
real-time, up-to-date cash flow statement,

01:16:12.877 --> 01:16:14.338
income statement, balance sheet,

01:16:15.259 --> 01:16:16.418
other types of financial documents,

01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:17.819
other types of reporting potentially,

01:16:17.880 --> 01:16:18.000
right?

01:16:18.783 --> 01:16:19.963
So all those types of things,

01:16:20.425 --> 01:16:21.466
if you've got things going

01:16:21.485 --> 01:16:22.327
through smart contracts,

01:16:22.567 --> 01:16:23.608
are definitely very feasible.

01:16:25.390 --> 01:16:27.011
With existing financial rails,

01:16:27.632 --> 01:16:28.554
maybe that API is down.

01:16:28.814 --> 01:16:29.574
Maybe that company goes

01:16:29.675 --> 01:16:31.617
under and I can't export

01:16:31.657 --> 01:16:32.096
any of that data.

01:16:32.117 --> 01:16:33.458
I now have to go rebuild my

01:16:33.498 --> 01:16:34.239
system somewhere else.

01:16:34.926 --> 01:16:35.828
if I don't like an interface

01:16:35.868 --> 01:16:36.547
I could actually just go

01:16:36.568 --> 01:16:37.309
spin it up somewhere else

01:16:37.368 --> 01:16:38.470
but but you are you're

01:16:38.489 --> 01:16:39.449
right there are certainly

01:16:39.489 --> 01:16:40.291
questions and there's a

01:16:40.331 --> 01:16:41.412
question of standardization

01:16:41.572 --> 01:16:42.212
and part of our product

01:16:42.231 --> 01:16:43.412
does require some

01:16:43.512 --> 01:16:45.094
standardization so that the

01:16:45.234 --> 01:16:47.555
user gets a delightful

01:16:47.895 --> 01:16:49.917
unified experience this is

01:16:49.938 --> 01:16:50.917
an important push and pull

01:16:51.057 --> 01:16:51.779
in crypto world which is

01:16:52.639 --> 01:16:53.420
How standardized do you want

01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:54.020
to make something?

01:16:54.820 --> 01:16:56.381
And I make the argument that

01:16:56.681 --> 01:16:57.743
the most powerful thing in

01:16:57.783 --> 01:16:59.243
crypto is standards, right?

01:16:59.524 --> 01:17:00.824
The ERC20 standard means

01:17:00.845 --> 01:17:01.905
that anyone can go long to 20,

01:17:01.905 --> 01:17:03.567
follow that standard, and they know, oh,

01:17:03.828 --> 01:17:05.127
this product I created is

01:17:05.167 --> 01:17:06.890
compatible on this exchange

01:17:06.909 --> 01:17:08.270
and this lending protocol and this thing,

01:17:08.331 --> 01:17:08.470
right?

01:17:08.631 --> 01:17:09.310
So it is that

01:17:09.351 --> 01:17:11.193
standardization that is truly,

01:17:11.233 --> 01:17:11.872
truly powerful.

01:17:12.373 --> 01:17:13.914
But if it's only in the backend...

01:17:14.863 --> 01:17:16.944
then you have some limitations.

01:17:17.444 --> 01:17:18.484
So we're introducing some

01:17:18.505 --> 01:17:19.404
additional standardization

01:17:19.564 --> 01:17:20.845
at the platform level,

01:17:20.944 --> 01:17:22.524
at the interface level to

01:17:22.545 --> 01:17:23.926
make it easier for these organizations.

01:17:23.966 --> 01:17:24.706
There isn't so much

01:17:24.725 --> 01:17:25.805
fragmentation and

01:17:25.845 --> 01:17:28.105
splintering and horrific user experience.

01:17:29.466 --> 01:17:29.766
Awesome.

01:17:30.006 --> 01:17:31.886
Do you see a potential to

01:17:31.926 --> 01:17:34.667
have actual like EIPs or

01:17:34.828 --> 01:17:36.507
official standards related

01:17:36.587 --> 01:17:38.847
to DAOs and digital organizations?

01:17:38.927 --> 01:17:39.748
Is that something you guys

01:17:39.788 --> 01:17:40.349
have thought about?

01:17:40.368 --> 01:17:41.548
Do you see other people doing it?

01:17:44.645 --> 01:17:46.108
I don't think what we're

01:17:46.188 --> 01:17:48.649
doing has aspirations for EIPs.

01:17:50.171 --> 01:17:51.832
I think that the EIP

01:17:51.893 --> 01:17:53.073
adjacent area would be

01:17:53.154 --> 01:17:55.956
things like how do you

01:17:55.975 --> 01:17:57.698
choose to structure account

01:17:57.738 --> 01:17:58.679
abstraction because

01:17:59.019 --> 01:18:00.581
organizations might have a

01:18:00.640 --> 01:18:01.581
specific structure that

01:18:01.621 --> 01:18:02.521
might be useful for them.

01:18:02.903 --> 01:18:03.603
But I think most of these

01:18:03.643 --> 01:18:05.204
things are best off done at

01:18:05.225 --> 01:18:06.365
the smart contract level

01:18:06.706 --> 01:18:07.587
rather than the blockchain level.

01:18:08.899 --> 01:18:09.059
Cool.

01:18:09.899 --> 01:18:11.020
Awesome.

01:18:11.161 --> 01:18:11.761
So I want to ask you to

01:18:11.780 --> 01:18:12.881
reflect a little bit on the

01:18:12.942 --> 01:18:13.943
current state of DAOs.

01:18:13.962 --> 01:18:14.842
I know we've already talked

01:18:14.904 --> 01:18:16.625
a lot about where DAOs have been,

01:18:16.925 --> 01:18:17.586
where they are,

01:18:17.666 --> 01:18:18.666
maybe where they're going.

01:18:20.167 --> 01:18:21.609
But I assume through your

01:18:21.649 --> 01:18:22.529
work that you get to talk

01:18:22.569 --> 01:18:24.310
to a lot of DAO-related

01:18:24.371 --> 01:18:25.851
folks like myself and

01:18:25.891 --> 01:18:26.853
probably many others.

01:18:27.573 --> 01:18:28.854
What are you hearing in the

01:18:28.894 --> 01:18:33.317
DAO world in terms of how we're doing,

01:18:33.637 --> 01:18:34.618
what we're doing wrong,

01:18:35.238 --> 01:18:35.939
where we're going?

01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:37.860
Any highlights that you

01:18:37.881 --> 01:18:39.202
could share with me and

01:18:39.242 --> 01:18:39.862
with the audience?

01:18:41.502 --> 01:18:41.923
Definitely.

01:18:43.585 --> 01:18:45.105
I want to start with maybe

01:18:47.167 --> 01:18:49.748
the parts about some of the

01:18:49.769 --> 01:18:50.970
things that are challenging.

01:18:51.650 --> 01:18:53.372
I mentioned this a little bit earlier,

01:18:53.391 --> 01:18:54.993
but it's this idea around

01:18:56.033 --> 01:18:57.774
organizational diversity.

01:18:58.981 --> 01:19:00.623
I almost think the analogy of like,

01:19:00.863 --> 01:19:03.086
why is biological diversity important,

01:19:03.126 --> 01:19:03.286
right?

01:19:03.546 --> 01:19:04.926
So you've got a whole bunch of plant crops,

01:19:04.987 --> 01:19:07.489
a single parasite comes in,

01:19:07.529 --> 01:19:08.511
doesn't wipe out everything.

01:19:08.610 --> 01:19:09.912
Biological diversity is important.

01:19:09.971 --> 01:19:11.814
Same is true for organizations, right?

01:19:12.113 --> 01:19:13.654
We don't want monocrops in

01:19:13.694 --> 01:19:14.315
our organizations.

01:19:14.336 --> 01:19:15.256
We don't want them to all be

01:19:15.296 --> 01:19:16.417
copy and pastes of each other.

01:19:16.978 --> 01:19:18.158
And so one of the issues

01:19:18.198 --> 01:19:20.001
that a lot of people are working on,

01:19:20.341 --> 01:19:20.981
actually just today,

01:19:21.002 --> 01:19:22.382
I wish we'd maybe include

01:19:22.403 --> 01:19:23.524
it in the news update.

01:19:23.543 --> 01:19:24.524
Maybe it's a good one to add

01:19:24.585 --> 01:19:24.925
for next week.

01:19:26.436 --> 01:19:27.898
ZK Sync just announced

01:19:27.997 --> 01:19:29.378
something called ZK Nation.

01:19:29.640 --> 01:19:30.600
It's a slightly different

01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:31.240
type of governance

01:19:31.261 --> 01:19:32.462
structure that has three

01:19:32.502 --> 01:19:33.703
types of bodies to it.

01:19:34.104 --> 01:19:35.465
This is a great example.

01:19:35.966 --> 01:19:37.768
Organizational diversity, a new approach,

01:19:37.807 --> 01:19:39.048
a new methodology using

01:19:39.069 --> 01:19:40.170
some of the interesting learnings,

01:19:40.489 --> 01:19:42.652
things that help prevent major downfalls.

01:19:43.113 --> 01:19:44.634
And this is a very interesting structure.

01:19:44.654 --> 01:19:45.475
I hope people take it and

01:19:45.494 --> 01:19:46.336
continue to iterate on it.

01:19:46.815 --> 01:19:47.596
it's designed to have three

01:19:47.617 --> 01:19:49.597
bodies so they've got a a a

01:19:49.677 --> 01:19:50.918
token body they've got a

01:19:50.958 --> 01:19:52.260
security council they've

01:19:52.300 --> 01:19:53.940
got a guardian council

01:19:54.240 --> 01:19:55.442
right so now we're starting

01:19:55.462 --> 01:19:56.443
to evolve how do we protect

01:19:56.483 --> 01:19:57.384
people how do we make sure

01:19:57.604 --> 01:19:58.344
we're protecting against

01:19:58.463 --> 01:20:00.005
exploits but also how are

01:20:00.024 --> 01:20:00.905
we getting democratic state

01:20:00.945 --> 01:20:01.907
of participants how are we

01:20:01.926 --> 01:20:02.407
delegating some

01:20:02.426 --> 01:20:03.847
responsibilities this is

01:20:03.927 --> 01:20:05.009
good all of these things

01:20:05.048 --> 01:20:07.130
are good so so this is I

01:20:07.411 --> 01:20:08.591
say I think quintessential

01:20:09.131 --> 01:20:11.153
um how do we encourage even

01:20:11.554 --> 01:20:13.515
even more of that um

01:20:15.998 --> 01:20:17.038
I think earlier, right,

01:20:17.078 --> 01:20:19.640
we talked about how is

01:20:19.739 --> 01:20:20.939
Arbitrum spending money?

01:20:21.581 --> 01:20:22.560
I think organizations have

01:20:22.581 --> 01:20:23.980
this question about how are

01:20:25.561 --> 01:20:26.101
we spending money?

01:20:26.141 --> 01:20:27.021
How are we allocating capital?

01:20:27.042 --> 01:20:28.422
This is a very top of mind

01:20:28.443 --> 01:20:29.743
question for lots and lots

01:20:29.783 --> 01:20:31.904
of DAOs because a lot of

01:20:31.923 --> 01:20:33.243
them raise large treasuries.

01:20:34.033 --> 01:20:35.453
and then have been continuously spending,

01:20:35.533 --> 01:20:36.434
continuously spending,

01:20:36.914 --> 01:20:38.555
and starting to see the

01:20:38.595 --> 01:20:39.796
numbers dwindle and ask

01:20:39.817 --> 01:20:40.537
themselves the question,

01:20:40.577 --> 01:20:41.978
how sustainable is this?

01:20:42.438 --> 01:20:43.238
Does this make sense?

01:20:43.939 --> 01:20:44.920
And so you always have to

01:20:44.939 --> 01:20:45.699
ask yourself the question,

01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:46.740
why am I spending money?

01:20:47.560 --> 01:20:48.502
What is the use of this money?

01:20:48.561 --> 01:20:49.983
Is it accomplishing my objective?

01:20:50.262 --> 01:20:51.663
Is it going to grow users on

01:20:51.684 --> 01:20:53.765
the network to allow me to generate fees,

01:20:53.824 --> 01:20:54.284
to grow,

01:20:54.625 --> 01:20:55.845
to allow me to have more assets

01:20:55.886 --> 01:20:57.487
to distribute into the system again?

01:20:58.027 --> 01:20:58.828
Maybe that's the objective.

01:20:59.849 --> 01:21:00.670
Are you going to accomplish

01:21:00.710 --> 01:21:01.871
that with games?

01:21:01.911 --> 01:21:02.591
Are you going to accomplish

01:21:02.612 --> 01:21:03.573
that with organizations?

01:21:03.894 --> 01:21:05.235
Now that's where we get into

01:21:05.256 --> 01:21:06.698
the nitty gritty conversations.

01:21:07.859 --> 01:21:08.881
There's lots of theories about it,

01:21:08.961 --> 01:21:10.743
but still the question is

01:21:10.802 --> 01:21:11.925
how do you effectively

01:21:12.425 --> 01:21:14.188
spend money is a very good question.

01:21:14.868 --> 01:21:17.192
I think the same types of organizational

01:21:18.467 --> 01:21:20.488
rot that we see in

01:21:20.889 --> 01:21:21.590
governments and

01:21:21.609 --> 01:21:23.229
bureaucracies and philanthropies,

01:21:23.289 --> 01:21:25.851
nonprofits of where did that money go?

01:21:26.011 --> 01:21:28.273
And what happened to that funding?

01:21:28.813 --> 01:21:29.774
And, oh,

01:21:29.873 --> 01:21:31.134
I know a buddy who's on the grant

01:21:31.173 --> 01:21:32.414
council and he's going to

01:21:32.435 --> 01:21:33.956
make sure we get a million

01:21:33.975 --> 01:21:35.176
dollar budget for this thing, right?

01:21:36.016 --> 01:21:36.936
These are systemic.

01:21:36.976 --> 01:21:39.337
I mean, not even dozens of years old.

01:21:39.377 --> 01:21:41.618
I mean, hundreds, thousands of years old,

01:21:41.679 --> 01:21:41.878
right?

01:21:41.899 --> 01:21:42.920
These are problems that

01:21:43.479 --> 01:21:44.761
every civilization has dealt with,

01:21:44.780 --> 01:21:45.581
which is how do we

01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:46.862
effectively spend that money?

01:21:47.596 --> 01:21:48.878
These tools are actually

01:21:48.939 --> 01:21:50.703
designed to be perfect to solve them,

01:21:51.063 --> 01:21:52.626
but we have to build good tools for it,

01:21:52.666 --> 01:21:52.826
right?

01:21:53.087 --> 01:21:54.829
How do you build in accountability?

01:21:55.190 --> 01:21:58.475
How do you build in good design choices?

01:21:59.016 --> 01:22:00.219
We're still in infancy,

01:22:00.238 --> 01:22:00.820
but we're getting there.

01:22:02.078 --> 01:22:02.298
Yeah,

01:22:02.538 --> 01:22:04.360
I also feel like the tools that we're

01:22:04.400 --> 01:22:05.140
building in the DAO

01:22:05.180 --> 01:22:06.922
industry provide a new set

01:22:07.023 --> 01:22:09.885
of options that you can use

01:22:09.944 --> 01:22:12.046
and combine with all of the

01:22:12.367 --> 01:22:13.207
options that have been

01:22:13.247 --> 01:22:14.389
available for thousands of

01:22:14.448 --> 01:22:15.590
years or that have been

01:22:15.630 --> 01:22:16.770
developed over thousands of

01:22:16.810 --> 01:22:19.112
years for how to run and

01:22:19.152 --> 01:22:21.073
govern and operate organizations.

01:22:21.934 --> 01:22:24.274
And just because these are

01:22:24.295 --> 01:22:25.494
the newest ones doesn't

01:22:25.515 --> 01:22:26.255
mean they're always going

01:22:26.274 --> 01:22:27.376
to be the right tools for

01:22:27.456 --> 01:22:29.615
every situation and doesn't

01:22:29.636 --> 01:22:30.436
mean they should be used

01:22:30.476 --> 01:22:32.377
exclusively without some of

01:22:32.476 --> 01:22:34.837
the older tools and approaches too.

01:22:35.997 --> 01:22:37.439
So, you know, to me,

01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:38.279
that's part of what will

01:22:38.298 --> 01:22:39.599
make DAO successful is

01:22:39.679 --> 01:22:40.899
actually being a little bit less,

01:22:40.920 --> 01:22:42.060
you know,

01:22:43.088 --> 01:22:45.730
less focused on avoiding the

01:22:45.751 --> 01:22:46.452
way things have been done

01:22:46.492 --> 01:22:47.612
in the past and maybe more

01:22:47.672 --> 01:22:49.514
focused on embracing some

01:22:49.533 --> 01:22:50.173
of the things that have

01:22:50.194 --> 01:22:52.155
been done in the past with

01:22:52.595 --> 01:22:54.037
this new technology we have now.

01:22:54.056 --> 01:22:54.898
I mean, even thinking about,

01:22:54.938 --> 01:22:55.918
to your point about grant

01:22:55.958 --> 01:22:58.079
making or spending, I mean,

01:22:58.161 --> 01:22:59.622
it's a challenge that, I mean,

01:22:59.641 --> 01:23:01.342
just look at nonprofits and

01:23:01.382 --> 01:23:02.623
charities that make grants

01:23:03.203 --> 01:23:04.104
and the challenges that

01:23:04.125 --> 01:23:05.126
they have and the

01:23:05.185 --> 01:23:06.346
approaches they use to try

01:23:06.386 --> 01:23:07.427
to make good decisions.

01:23:08.108 --> 01:23:09.248
Anyone who's trying to build

01:23:09.288 --> 01:23:10.510
a grant making organization

01:23:10.550 --> 01:23:11.350
today in a DAO,

01:23:12.070 --> 01:23:13.752
I assume will do a worse job

01:23:13.832 --> 01:23:15.193
if they don't at least look

01:23:15.233 --> 01:23:17.814
at the history of how to do

01:23:17.875 --> 01:23:20.015
grants well and learn from it too.

01:23:20.317 --> 01:23:21.978
In addition to leveraging

01:23:22.158 --> 01:23:23.018
modern technology.

01:23:25.079 --> 01:23:26.480
There is a really funny,

01:23:26.501 --> 01:23:29.162
our sad congressional

01:23:29.203 --> 01:23:31.564
hearing a couple of months ago,

01:23:32.024 --> 01:23:32.984
and it was someone from I

01:23:33.666 --> 01:23:35.667
think DOD or Pentagon.

01:23:37.167 --> 01:23:38.189
And the, the,

01:23:39.568 --> 01:23:40.429
Congress was asking them,

01:23:40.748 --> 01:23:41.989
where did this money go and

01:23:42.631 --> 01:23:43.551
what happened to these things?

01:23:44.011 --> 01:23:45.953
And they had to answer honestly,

01:23:46.534 --> 01:23:47.454
we don't know where these

01:23:48.015 --> 01:23:48.777
billions and billions and

01:23:48.796 --> 01:23:49.497
billions of dollars went.

01:23:50.097 --> 01:23:51.759
Blockchain is a great way of saying,

01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:54.100
I know exactly where every

01:23:54.221 --> 01:23:55.262
dollar got spent.

01:23:56.063 --> 01:23:57.925
The things that ail societies, right?

01:23:58.324 --> 01:24:00.067
How do we make sure money's

01:24:00.087 --> 01:24:01.247
going to the right places?

01:24:01.307 --> 01:24:02.970
How do we do good, thoughtful,

01:24:03.130 --> 01:24:04.650
retrospective audits of how

01:24:04.690 --> 01:24:05.372
money got spent?

01:24:05.979 --> 01:24:06.479
And then assess,

01:24:06.760 --> 01:24:07.421
how do we not make those

01:24:07.461 --> 01:24:08.502
same mistakes and make them better?

01:24:08.841 --> 01:24:10.182
If you don't even have the tools to say,

01:24:10.203 --> 01:24:12.466
how do we spend money badly?

01:24:12.905 --> 01:24:15.108
Then you can't fix it for the next time.

01:24:15.248 --> 01:24:16.869
These tools are going to change society.

01:24:16.890 --> 01:24:17.730
I think government's

01:24:17.770 --> 01:24:18.752
actually a great use case.

01:24:19.052 --> 01:24:20.373
Public utility companies are

01:24:20.394 --> 01:24:21.414
another great use case, right?

01:24:21.675 --> 01:24:22.997
There's some types of businesses,

01:24:23.957 --> 01:24:24.618
usually we describe them as

01:24:24.637 --> 01:24:26.100
public utilities, that

01:24:27.292 --> 01:24:28.153
that are societally

01:24:28.193 --> 01:24:30.373
beneficial to have sanctioned monopolies.

01:24:30.734 --> 01:24:31.414
And by monopolies,

01:24:31.454 --> 01:24:32.494
I mean that they should be

01:24:32.534 --> 01:24:33.355
the only one doing a

01:24:33.376 --> 01:24:34.735
particular service because

01:24:34.775 --> 01:24:37.198
there's a good reason for it, right?

01:24:37.417 --> 01:24:38.599
I don't want to have 20

01:24:38.599 --> 01:24:39.238
different power and

01:24:39.259 --> 01:24:39.998
electricity companies

01:24:40.219 --> 01:24:41.279
having to run power lines

01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:42.720
20 different times over so

01:24:42.740 --> 01:24:43.421
I can choose between 20

01:24:43.421 --> 01:24:44.141
different services.

01:24:44.162 --> 01:24:45.061
So they need to be

01:24:46.483 --> 01:24:48.444
structured as a public utility company.

01:24:49.585 --> 01:24:51.024
But what that also means is

01:24:51.244 --> 01:24:52.706
they still need to be profit-seeking.

01:24:52.765 --> 01:24:53.447
So you're trying to balance

01:24:53.466 --> 01:24:53.886
all these things.

01:24:55.005 --> 01:24:56.025
A public utility company

01:24:56.046 --> 01:24:57.228
would be a great example of something of,

01:24:57.247 --> 01:24:57.667
yeah,

01:24:57.747 --> 01:24:58.868
let's make sure that the money

01:24:58.889 --> 01:25:00.150
that's getting spent by

01:25:00.211 --> 01:25:01.112
people who are using it,

01:25:01.471 --> 01:25:03.394
the citizens who are getting electricity,

01:25:03.453 --> 01:25:04.154
who have a need,

01:25:04.395 --> 01:25:05.115
that the money's going to

01:25:05.136 --> 01:25:07.018
the proper places, getting spent properly,

01:25:07.257 --> 01:25:07.797
that the budgets are

01:25:07.818 --> 01:25:08.759
getting spent reasonably,

01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:09.640
that there's good

01:25:09.680 --> 01:25:11.021
incentives baked into it.

01:25:11.282 --> 01:25:12.283
So you don't scratch your head and go,

01:25:13.123 --> 01:25:15.305
Where did that money go?

01:25:15.645 --> 01:25:17.207
So I'm excited to see this

01:25:17.346 --> 01:25:18.386
use case start to permeate.

01:25:18.546 --> 01:25:20.948
How do we actually allow the

01:25:21.208 --> 01:25:22.770
everyday citizen to conduct

01:25:22.789 --> 01:25:24.730
their own audits, not just trust someone?

01:25:24.951 --> 01:25:26.532
Yeah, an audit got done.

01:25:26.591 --> 01:25:27.052
Trust us.

01:25:27.092 --> 01:25:28.913
The money is being spent accordingly.

01:25:29.113 --> 01:25:30.354
It's like citizen auditing

01:25:30.395 --> 01:25:31.756
almost when a lot of data

01:25:31.836 --> 01:25:32.775
is on chain and available.

01:25:33.737 --> 01:25:34.417
It's a great point.

01:25:34.457 --> 01:25:35.398
And I think it's important

01:25:35.457 --> 01:25:37.798
for us all to recognize that even if

01:25:38.996 --> 01:25:40.636
you just take DAO technology,

01:25:40.697 --> 01:25:41.778
just take that component of

01:25:41.837 --> 01:25:43.418
it that makes the use of

01:25:43.519 --> 01:25:44.779
money and the making of

01:25:44.838 --> 01:25:46.020
decisions transparent,

01:25:46.520 --> 01:25:48.140
that alone could be so

01:25:48.282 --> 01:25:49.782
transformatively valuable,

01:25:50.823 --> 01:25:51.684
even if you don't

01:25:51.944 --> 01:25:53.184
decentralize everything

01:25:53.243 --> 01:25:55.305
else about the organization, right?

01:25:55.666 --> 01:25:57.167
Just do those things digitally,

01:25:57.186 --> 01:25:58.146
do them on the blockchain

01:25:58.167 --> 01:25:59.728
or a similar public ledger,

01:26:00.408 --> 01:26:01.609
and then just use the

01:26:01.649 --> 01:26:02.630
traditional legal system

01:26:02.649 --> 01:26:03.409
for accountability.

01:26:03.810 --> 01:26:04.570
You don't even need to do

01:26:04.631 --> 01:26:05.551
on-chain accountability.

01:26:06.853 --> 01:26:08.314
And that's such an unlock,

01:26:08.614 --> 01:26:09.796
even without all the rest

01:26:09.836 --> 01:26:11.097
of what we're building for DAOs.

01:26:12.600 --> 01:26:13.280
You know how earlier I was

01:26:13.320 --> 01:26:14.481
talking about we have

01:26:15.944 --> 01:26:17.145
social contracts and we

01:26:17.185 --> 01:26:18.907
have mechanical enforcement.

01:26:18.947 --> 01:26:20.109
Blockchain smart contracts

01:26:20.128 --> 01:26:20.668
are really good for

01:26:21.050 --> 01:26:21.970
mechanically enforcing.

01:26:22.011 --> 01:26:22.872
What did we agree on and

01:26:22.912 --> 01:26:23.693
make that thing happen?

01:26:24.648 --> 01:26:25.667
I think there's a lot of

01:26:25.707 --> 01:26:26.729
these fun thought

01:26:26.769 --> 01:26:27.408
experiments that I

01:26:27.988 --> 01:26:29.250
wholeheartedly expect will

01:26:29.310 --> 01:26:31.190
be implemented in the years

01:26:31.211 --> 01:26:31.911
and decades ahead.

01:26:31.930 --> 01:26:32.730
It's going to take a while.

01:26:33.011 --> 01:26:34.011
But think about this, right?

01:26:34.631 --> 01:26:36.693
If people all were voting

01:26:36.893 --> 01:26:38.253
on-chain for their congressmen,

01:26:38.274 --> 01:26:40.134
for their senators, for things like this,

01:26:40.533 --> 01:26:41.414
people would feel better

01:26:41.475 --> 01:26:43.216
about the legitimacy of voting.

01:26:43.536 --> 01:26:44.836
But then you could also

01:26:44.855 --> 01:26:46.157
start taking this to the next step.

01:26:46.216 --> 01:26:46.537
Okay, so

01:26:47.197 --> 01:26:48.318
this person, let's say Adam, right?

01:26:48.337 --> 01:26:48.557
You get,

01:26:48.578 --> 01:26:50.840
you get elected Senate to the Senate,

01:26:51.220 --> 01:26:52.180
your ID card,

01:26:52.501 --> 01:26:53.322
the day after you get

01:26:53.362 --> 01:26:54.743
inaugurated allows you to

01:26:54.783 --> 01:26:55.563
walk into the Senate

01:26:55.582 --> 01:26:56.503
because that's connected to

01:26:56.524 --> 01:26:57.545
the actual voting system.

01:26:57.965 --> 01:27:00.225
You get voted out by the people, your,

01:27:00.346 --> 01:27:01.908
your swipe card doesn't work anymore.

01:27:01.948 --> 01:27:02.868
You're not allowed in that building.

01:27:02.887 --> 01:27:03.969
The person who replaced you

01:27:04.448 --> 01:27:05.250
is now allowed in that building.

01:27:05.350 --> 01:27:07.011
So all of a sudden you

01:27:07.171 --> 01:27:08.532
actually have legitimate

01:27:08.612 --> 01:27:09.932
mechanical solutions to

01:27:09.972 --> 01:27:11.014
things like the peaceful

01:27:11.054 --> 01:27:11.975
transfers of power.

01:27:12.494 --> 01:27:13.615
Someone who says, I refuse, like,

01:27:13.836 --> 01:27:14.837
like even something like, right.

01:27:14.877 --> 01:27:14.997
Well,

01:27:15.756 --> 01:27:16.917
What's the actual system to

01:27:16.978 --> 01:27:19.159
press a red button, right?

01:27:19.399 --> 01:27:20.100
The big red button.

01:27:20.360 --> 01:27:21.903
It's a thought experiment,

01:27:21.943 --> 01:27:22.984
although actually a real thing.

01:27:23.384 --> 01:27:25.305
What's the actual governance behind that?

01:27:26.342 --> 01:27:28.244
If you have real mechanic enforcement,

01:27:28.265 --> 01:27:29.485
you don't have this weird

01:27:29.826 --> 01:27:31.068
situation where the wrong

01:27:31.108 --> 01:27:32.248
person in the wrong way was

01:27:32.328 --> 01:27:33.149
able to do something just

01:27:33.170 --> 01:27:34.751
because they refused to give up power.

01:27:35.252 --> 01:27:36.171
Mechanically enforcing these

01:27:36.192 --> 01:27:37.514
things from the ground up,

01:27:37.554 --> 01:27:38.454
from the grassroots up,

01:27:38.835 --> 01:27:40.657
allowing democracy from

01:27:41.337 --> 01:27:42.658
actual process of election

01:27:42.698 --> 01:27:43.559
through the rest of the system,

01:27:44.020 --> 01:27:45.520
permissioning, access control,

01:27:45.621 --> 01:27:46.943
all these things should be

01:27:47.042 --> 01:27:48.283
done through powerful

01:27:48.323 --> 01:27:49.664
cryptography and through

01:27:50.005 --> 01:27:51.386
blockchain systems, without a doubt.

01:27:52.243 --> 01:27:52.484
Yeah, I mean,

01:27:52.503 --> 01:27:53.484
it's kind of like we're saying,

01:27:53.644 --> 01:27:55.085
rather than just have

01:27:55.904 --> 01:27:56.904
democratic systems

01:27:57.064 --> 01:27:58.345
implemented by small groups

01:27:58.385 --> 01:27:59.506
of people who can cheat,

01:28:00.525 --> 01:28:02.105
now we have the potential

01:28:02.185 --> 01:28:04.247
to have democratic systems

01:28:04.287 --> 01:28:05.947
that directly control things.

01:28:06.926 --> 01:28:08.207
And that's an important

01:28:08.487 --> 01:28:10.028
security guarantee we may want.

01:28:10.908 --> 01:28:13.207
Let's self-audit our own

01:28:13.328 --> 01:28:15.328
systems and make sure

01:28:15.349 --> 01:28:16.649
they're actually working

01:28:17.088 --> 01:28:18.109
the way they're designed to.

01:28:18.710 --> 01:28:19.989
The design is good in theory.

01:28:20.743 --> 01:28:21.725
And blockchains help with

01:28:21.787 --> 01:28:24.194
the practice and execution of enforcing,

01:28:24.234 --> 01:28:25.077
make sure it's actually

01:28:25.117 --> 01:28:26.542
done the way we all said it

01:28:26.561 --> 01:28:27.384
should be done this way.

01:28:28.103 --> 01:28:28.283
Yep.

01:28:28.842 --> 01:28:29.182
Love it.

01:28:29.644 --> 01:28:31.384
So we're already over time.

01:28:31.543 --> 01:28:33.585
So I want to turn to the conclusion.

01:28:34.524 --> 01:28:35.204
First of all,

01:28:35.966 --> 01:28:38.086
if folks want to find me or

01:28:38.105 --> 01:28:40.346
the podcast on Twitter or

01:28:40.426 --> 01:28:42.427
Farcaster or anywhere,

01:28:42.467 --> 01:28:43.247
it's not that hard to do.

01:28:43.307 --> 01:28:45.189
MyDAO is MyDAO DS for MyDAO

01:28:45.208 --> 01:28:46.208
Directory Services.

01:28:46.309 --> 01:28:48.029
I'm Zero X Thriller or The

01:28:48.069 --> 01:28:49.850
Thriller on Farcaster.

01:28:50.890 --> 01:28:51.251
Graham,

01:28:51.530 --> 01:28:53.190
where can people find you and your

01:28:53.211 --> 01:28:55.131
projects on the web and on social?

01:28:56.324 --> 01:28:58.086
You can find me on Twitter.

01:28:58.506 --> 01:29:02.408
I'm gnovak underscore, also in Telegram,

01:29:02.628 --> 01:29:03.970
G-O-N-O-V-A-K.

01:29:04.109 --> 01:29:05.350
It's probably the best two

01:29:05.371 --> 01:29:06.072
places to find me.

01:29:06.652 --> 01:29:08.993
You can go on our website, mezzanine.xyz,

01:29:09.654 --> 01:29:11.335
sign up for our beta, reach out to me.

01:29:11.354 --> 01:29:13.416
If you've got an application,

01:29:13.756 --> 01:29:14.457
happy to talk to you about

01:29:14.476 --> 01:29:15.257
putting it on the platform.

01:29:15.278 --> 01:29:16.599
If you want to use the

01:29:16.618 --> 01:29:17.238
products that we've got,

01:29:17.599 --> 01:29:19.060
happy to talk to you about beta testing.

01:29:19.820 --> 01:29:22.421
And happy to chat.

01:29:22.823 --> 01:29:24.304
I'm a huge fan of this space.

01:29:24.404 --> 01:29:26.185
And Adam, thank you for having me.

01:29:27.006 --> 01:29:27.166
Yeah.

01:29:27.206 --> 01:29:28.688
Thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:29:28.747 --> 01:29:30.489
Just a quick ad for MyDAO again,

01:29:30.510 --> 01:29:31.731
a reminder to anyone

01:29:31.771 --> 01:29:32.872
listening that we do legal

01:29:32.912 --> 01:29:34.494
entities for DAOs and we

01:29:34.515 --> 01:29:35.555
have a partner network of

01:29:35.615 --> 01:29:36.957
lawyers and tax advisors

01:29:37.018 --> 01:29:38.439
all over the world who work

01:29:38.479 --> 01:29:39.902
with DAOs and Web3 projects.

01:29:39.962 --> 01:29:40.722
If you're looking to get

01:29:40.762 --> 01:29:42.123
connected with them or

01:29:42.163 --> 01:29:44.868
would like to be added to the network,

01:29:44.948 --> 01:29:45.708
please get in touch.

01:29:46.509 --> 01:29:47.350
Graham, again,

01:29:47.409 --> 01:29:48.832
thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:29:48.851 --> 01:29:50.514
A quick disclaimer,

01:29:50.594 --> 01:29:52.315
it's never legal advice.

01:29:52.355 --> 01:29:53.157
We're not lawyers.

01:29:53.197 --> 01:29:54.278
We're not financial advisors,

01:29:54.337 --> 01:29:55.099
not financial advice.

01:29:55.118 --> 01:29:56.079
It's not tax advice.

01:29:56.699 --> 01:29:58.101
But finally, for the audience,

01:29:58.402 --> 01:29:59.783
are you thinking about starting a DAO?

01:30:00.423 --> 01:30:01.005
Just DAO it.

01:30:01.905 --> 01:30:02.487
Thank you, Graham.

01:30:03.327 --> 01:30:03.547
Cheers.