jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Transformative Principal, and actually this is also going to be simulcast on resilient schools.
That's the beauty of having two awesome podcasts.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
Grateful to be here with you.
Both of these shows are proud members of the BE Podcast Network, where there's a show for everybody who is interested in anything in education.
And so go check out all of our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
Today we are continuing a conversation from last week where Barb SOLs and Aaron Bailey.
From NAMI and R, respect, respectively, we're talking about literacy and mental health.
So today I'm gonna just interview Barb.
She is the National Director of Innovation for the National Alliance on Mental Illness.
She's passionate, passionate about mental health, awareness, education, and advocacy, especially after the loss of a friend to suicide.
Barb has lived.
Barb's lived experience developing a mental health condition as a young person also motivates her work, improving outcomes for young people with mental health concerns.
There's a whole bunch of really cool stuff that Barb has done, and I encourage you to check out the rest of her stuff at the show notes for this podcast at Transformative Principal dot org or resilient schools.com where we have more show notes and other interesting links to the things that we are talking about.
Barb, welcome to the podcast.
So great to have you here.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Thank you so much for having me.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: So last week after you and Aaron talked, I had a whole bunch of questions that I want to get into.
And before we do that, I just want to start out by saying that this, uh, podcast is a part of the Macy's mission, everyone.
Which is a social commitment focusing on creating brighter futures.
And Macy's has partnered with Reading is Fundamental and the National Alliance on Mental Illness for a campaign that will help students head back to school with confidence and support that they need.
And they provide books and mental health resources to children nationwide.
And, uh, tell me just a little bit about that Macy's collaboration and what that means to you as the director of renovation at nami.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Yeah, I'm so grateful for Macy's continued partnership with NAMI and for our connection.
Now with R we have such aligned missions.
Um, both mental health and literacy are all about early intervention for better outcomes for young people and how to shape a child's future.
Um, so we have this roundup at the register initiative, which may seem small, but it makes a really big impact.
Um, so we're really grateful to Macy's for just recognizing that thriving communities start with strong, supported kids.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah, that is absolutely true and that that's essential, um, for, for kids to have support and for us to be able to do that.
So let's get into a couple things that we kind of hinted at in the last conversation.
Um, but I, I want to talk a little bit more about them.
Um, and the first one is, is that, um, a lot of mental health issues happen.
Younger than we think.
And when you think about it, you're like, oh yeah, that makes sense because something bad happens in your childhood and then it creates a mental health issue, or you have it genetically.
So literally it starts a conception.
And so, uh, tell, talk to us about that part of it, of, of these things starting early.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Yeah, I mentioned this when we spoke before, but I'm gonna repeat it 'cause I think it's really important and it's that half of all mental health conditions begin by age 14 and 75% by age 24.
So it really does start young and.
If you look at the numbers, about 16.5% of youth six or six to 17 experience a mental health condition, I think that number is probably higher just because early detection is hard and probably under reported.
Um, but I also wanna say of those kids that we know about, only half of them are getting the treatment that they deserve.
And we actually know that the average delay between the onset of a mental health condition and the treatment of that mental health condition is 11 years.
So when you're talking about kids, that has a huge impact on their outcomes and their lives.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Well, and the thing.
Here is that this is where we, we sometimes struggle.
Like when I was a kid it was like, toughen up and get over.
It was how we responded.
And to a certain extent that is appropriate.
And so where do you draw the line between a mental health issue and like, life is just tough.
How do you, how do you manage that?
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: You know, it's challenging and we hear it from parents and caregivers all the time.
Like, is this a normal challenge or is this something else?
Um, what I will say is that, um, there are some distinct warning signs that parents can look out for, and I will, there's like, I. plus.
But if you go to nami.org/signs, so n aami.org/signs, you can find some things to look for.
But what I would say just broadly is you are looking for changes.
So if you're looking for, um, you know, say a kid is normally really outgoing and having a great time in school and.
For a few weeks and maybe more, and maybe even longer than that, they start withdrawing.
And they're not enjoying school anymore.
They're not talking to anyone they, you know, call, uh, call home with bellyaches saying, I wanna come home.
something you're, you're looking for as a change.
Um, and so that's just one example and people often say, okay, so I saw this change.
Now what do I do?
Um, the first thing you can do is call your pediatrician.
Uh, a lot of people think, oh, now I have to call a psychiatrist and like, figure this all out and what do I do?
A pediatrician is someone who is taking care of your kid that you know and trust and can help guide you through that process, um, and connect you to the resources that your child might need.
Um, but I will say even if you're not yet worried about your child, it's still worthwhile to start talking about mental health.
Early, you know, you wanna mark yourself as a safe person to come to if they do end up facing mental health challenges.
Um, we have a lot of great conversation starters, again, at our website.
I, I hate to be the one who always does the like.
here.
Um, but we do, um, and a lot of great ways to open the conversation so that it's ongoing.
And so when you see something and you want to bring it up with your child, it's not out of the blue.
It's something you've been talking about and you're comfortable and they're comfortable talking about with you.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
Uh, well that is something that if, if it is a taboo subject, then it's even harder to, to like know if you should say just get over it or, or if it's really an issue.
And, and I think this is where the school officials and parents really struggled because you may not.
You know, a lot of the things when you, when you look at these signs, you're like, yeah, that describes a teenager.
And, and so it's tough because if you don't know that kid very well, if you're a teacher then you might be confused.
But if you're a parent, uh, you might really be confused because they could just be going through puberty and it could be something bigger.
So that's why I think talking to a doctor is worthwhile.
But the other thing I would add is you should probably have a, a safe person to talk to yourself about Hey, this is what's going on.
Do you think I need to worry about it?
And that person doesn't have to necessarily be a therapist, but just someone else that's outside of your own head saying, uh, you know, I'm seeing these signs in my kid.
Should I be worried?
And they can say, I don't think you need to be worried.
I see your kid and I don't see that.
Or maybe you should be worried because I saw that too and I didn't wanna say anything 'cause I didn't wanna offend you.
And those things are real.
So I would suggest also having a another adult that you trust that you can talk to about that.
Is, is that a good idea or am I crazy?
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Oh no, that's a perfect idea.
And in fact, kind of what Nami.
Built on is support.
And uh, we started actually as parents of kids with mental health conditions who were being misunderstood and the parents were being blamed for their mental illnesses.
Um, so it was really a support group to begin with.
Um, and so when you find, and this is something we say all the time, that you are not alone.
You then have hope
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: and you can start to problem solve.
Um, and so.
Absolutely.
Having community and support is so important, and you can, you can find that in, in a lot of different ways.
And I would say to your point about educators, parents and teachers are allies in this and open communication about kids' mental health okay.
And it doesn't mean either the parent, neither the parent nor the educator are doctors.
Right.
And you should never feel like you have to be one.
You should not be the one diagnosing your child.
Um, you know your child best and that teacher also probably knows your child really well too.
And you should have
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: about what you're seeing, but don't feel like you to be the therapist in this situation.
You are a supportive adult and you will get them the support that they need.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
Well, I'm glad you brought up that piece because this is one of the things that I just, uh, rail on all the time.
And I've done, uh, training, uh, trauma-informed trainings, and I used to have, uh.
A course all about that.
And I've rebranded all of that stuff to call it resilient schools because every trauma thing that I've been to, every training I've gone to, and every time I've led one, people walk out saying, so basically I need to be a therapist and, and I part of my, uh.
Part of my presentation is teachers are not therapists.
They should not feel like they need to be one, nor should they act like one, nor should they implement the strategies that a therapist, uh, is doing like counseling, therapy strategies.
They can implement other strategies, but they do not need to do that.
And, and it is, uh, one of those things that is so important to understand.
You can't expect a teacher to become a. A therapist, uh, as well as a teacher that's putting way too much on their plates and asking way too much of them and giving them, uh, an expectation that is impossible for them to fill.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Absolutely, and I think, you know, educators relieving themselves of that pressure to be a therapist or a doctor is so important.
And actually makes it easier to have, be that supportive adult that is really the role that you, you know, make it makes more sense to be playing.
Um, 'cause you don't feel awkward or pressured, you're just doing your job.
And also, you know, which is, you know, in part supporting the, the children in your classroom.
Um, and I to your point about, oh, sorry to interrupt,
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: that's okay.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: yeah.
Trauma Informed care and all of those trainings, we actually at NAMI, have been calling it, um, trauma Awareness.
So we have a, an online course.
It's free for any youth serving professional.
So that could be an educator, it could be a camp counselor, all about what is trauma and how does it affect kids and how you can, um, you know, support them in a way that makes sense.
I will say, you know, a significant number.
to 60% of kids have experienced multiple traumatic events, but I would say eight up to 80% have experienced at least one traumatic event.
But the important thing to note, note is that the majority of children and adolescents show resilience in the aftermath of a traumatic experience.
I think kids are a lot stronger, stronger than we give them credit for.
Um, so that's where, you know, understanding that while there is a lot of traumatic events that are happening in, in kids' lives right now, uh, you know, one traumatic event is not necessarily going to change the course of their lives.
Um, they're going to be resilient.
It's creating an environment so that they can be resilient.
Um, is, is such a big part of it.
Uh, multiple traumatic events.
ACEs, adverse childhood experiences definitely, um, can change how you know your future is charted.
You know, more negative experiences you experience like abuse or neglect or losing a family member, the more likely you are gonna face, you know, some mental health challenges and other challenges in your life.
And so we do need to be.
of these things, but not necessarily, uh, guess people are throwing around the, the word trauma so much.
It's lost its meaning.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
Which, which is exactly what happens when, when one of these Bud Buzzwords hits and, and then everything is traumatic and everything is, is, uh, is so difficult that it's going to affect me.
And I've had several instances with students with, um.
Where kids figured out that that was the case and would start to use that as a way to get out of doing work, get out of, uh, something difficult or, or challenging, which then just makes it harder when somebody really is experiencing some mental health issues and, and that, you know, isn't, isn't good either, but that's, that's the problem when we have these well-meaning.
Approaches where we're like, yeah, we wanna take care of everybody, but sometimes that's not exactly what we, what we really need.
Sometimes we need to say, okay, I get that this is, that this is hard and this has happened, but here, like this is a safe place to block that out and, and not, uh, let it impact what you're doing in here as best you can.
And you know, the reason why I am, I'm using language like that is because we've said that.
It is, it is traumatic if I have been abused or neglected, and it is traumatic if somebody did not give me half of their sandwich at lunch today.
And, and that's part of our problem is that we've made this buzzword be something that is anything and, and that's not helpful to, to the bigger conversation.
So what would be your advice in that situation of, you know, we talk about it too much and now it's like everything is traumatic.
What, what are we to do?
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Yeah, it is tough.
I mean, it's like a kid, you know, pretending to have a stomach ache, right?
It's, but what you know is you, you may have a little bit more education about physical.
Health conditions than you do about mental health
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: So the more you know about mental health conditions and those signs that we were talking about earlier, those changes in kids, those big changes that you're, you're seeing, um.
The more you're able to spot what is, what is and is not a real concern,
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: and be able to inter intervene early and help make sure that kid is supported.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: so it's really a lot.
I know, you know, educators have a lot.
their plates already.
But I think everybody, every adult, every sport of adult can learn a lot more about mental health and be able to, you know, the more people in your community that understand what to look for, the more likely we're gonna get in early intervention, um, and then better outcomes.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
So, talk about those better outcomes.
What does, what does that mean to you in your role?
Uh, for students specifically?
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Yeah.
It's so interesting, um, talking a little bit with Riff, for example, reading is fundamental is that some of the outcomes they talk about, like graduating from high school, are the same outcomes we talk
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: we're.
Talking about mental health intervention, graduating from high school, staying out of the criminal justice system.
Really high numbers of people with mental illness in the criminal justice system and revisit and, going back into the system
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Recidivism.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: you.
I was
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: You're welcome.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: but my, but I was like, oh, you know what?
My mouth is not gonna be able to say it today.
It's just not gonna be able to
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Um, yes.
so we wanna make sure people are getting help early.
Um, and getting the right po he help and the best possible care I can talk about myself.
You know, I experienced a mental health condition early, um, probably middle school, high school when it really started to appear, which is that 14-year-old, you know, average.
But I did not get help until college.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: long time to be really struggling.
Um, and it did affect.
How I, you know, interacted with my friends and how I, you know, studied for school and how I interacted with substances and things like that.
You know, it, it, all of those things potentially could have been different had I had early intervention.
And also I just think period, the pain that someone experiences when they have an untreated mental health condition is worth early intervention.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, and I, I, I like how you mentioned that the outcomes are these long-term.
Far away outcomes.
Uh, because it could take, you know, if, if you manage it and, and are able to stay out of prison, for example, until you turn 40 and then you finally snap, like, that means the outcome was not successful.
Right.
And, and the goals, you know, could have been met in other ways.
Like, yeah, you graduated high school, you started family, you got a job, all that kind of stuff.
But then eventually.
You broke.
And that is, uh, that is a, a real issue.
That doesn't mean that like the things we did weren't worthwhile or weren't beneficial, but the, the point that I'm trying to get to is that these things are so much bigger than the one year at a time.
School mindset, right?
You, you go to school, you're in fifth grade, you have that teacher, you're in ninth grade, you have those teachers, and then you move on.
And the thing is, is that we really need to take a more long-term, bigger picture approach to, uh, education as a whole and uh, to mental, mental health as well, and to literacy as well.
I think that we need to stop thinking in these, uh, in these high stress.
A legislatively convenient type ways of looking at education, that it needs to be deeper and, you know, it needs to go on for more than just the 13 years we're in school, but we need to continually be learning even after we graduate.
Um, is that too, uh, too out there for you?
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: it's not.
I think, you know, you're talking about preventing crises.
You
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: we don't wanna get to that point of, of crisis and that point of crisis might not ex happen for a long time.
Like you're saying, it could happen once you're in the workforce, you've been doing, you've been managing a mental health condition for that long, but something, you know, pressure burnout, something makes it.
Dip into that crisis point, and that is just not where we wanna put anybody.
Um, so your point about education is really Im important.
We, we would talk a lot about literacy, but mental health literacy in particular, mental health mental health education is health education.
And I think people separate them a lot and thinking about, you know.
I'm, I'm a health teacher, I'm teaching physical health.
Well, there's a lot to learn about mental health too, that has similar outcomes,
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: and things that you need to be prepared for and prevention that can happen by teaching mental health literacy, what a mental health condition is and is not.
How to help, uh, get help when you need it.
How to talk to your friends about mental health, et cetera.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah, I like that.
Um, so the last thing that, uh, that I wanted to chat about today was this, um, idea that you just briefly touched on in your conversation with Erin last time.
And I'm gonna talk about this with her also, but I wanna talk about that idea of.
Of building connections in a physical space by reading next to someone and why that's so important.
And I, when you two talked last week, you both hit on it, but I feel like there's so much more to sitting on your parents' lap, being read a story, sitting next to other kids while someone else is reading a story, that kind of stuff.
Can be incredibly powerful.
What, what do you wanna say about that and building connections in general, uh, with people and why that's so valuable?
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Yeah, I think a lot of parents are focused on being the perfect parent and making sure they read three books a day or you know, they're getting through homework at this hour.
And you know, it's great to have goals, but it's, let's focus on connection, not perfection.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: as we said in the, in our last chat, connection is protection, right?
So what matters most is that a kid is.
Feeling seen, heard is feeling safe in, in their learning environment.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Mm-hmm.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: so that's in part why sitting with a child has such a powerful effect.
Um, and we talked a little bit about how having a conversation about mental health or any really challenging topic with a young, uh, with a young person, a, a child or a teen, can be easier when it's not a high pressure.
Face-to-face, this is the talk that we're having.
It's an ongoing conversation.
Maybe you're driving in the front seat and somebody's, you know, in the back, one of the, your kids is in the backseat, and you ask some open-ended questions.
I, I always recommend, um, asking questions that don't have a yes or no answer,
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: that shuts down the conversation pretty quickly.
Um, but saying, you know, what did you like about X, Y, or Z today?
How did you know?
How did you feel the game went and uh, what kind of pressure did you feel during it?
Those kinds of things, um, can really up a conversation and get that consistency.
And like you're saying, that physical space matters and it doesn't have to be just sitting too, it could be.
a puzzle together, something where you're using your hands.
You're, you're even outside.
Maybe you're, you're helping your child learn to garden and you're putting seeds in the dirt.
That, that's an opportunity, that's a great time to start a conversation because it's taking the pressure off of it.
It's not making it such a big deal.
It's making it just part of how you interact with your child.
jethro_1_06-25-2025_124132: Yeah.
Well, and, and to the school context, one of the things that teachers can do is go play with your kids at recess and, and do those things, uh, those physical things with them that open.
To help them open up in ways that, that you would be surprised about, uh, compared to when they're sitting in your classroom and you are the master of the domain.
You know, go, go try doing the monkey bars with them and, and then talk about how hard it is for you to do it at.
However old you are, it's a lot harder than it is for them to do it at whatever grade they're at.
And those are, those are important things that help you build that connection.
I especially love doing the physical things together and reading, looking at a book together can be one of those, but there's, there's a lot more.
Um, Barb, this was a great chatting with you today.
Thank you so much for your time.
And just a reminder, if you, uh, shop at Macy's, go do their roundup between now and.
And, uh, September 14th and your rounding up will support r and NAMI's efforts to provide mental health and literacy resources to students.
Thank you so much again, Barb, for being part of the podcast today.
barb-solish---she-her-_1_06-25-2025_154151: Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.