Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episdoe of, MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe and everything you need to know.
I'm Trey
Jude: I'm Jude.
How you doing?
Trey: Well, Jude, I'm excited because today we get to defy the TVA
themselves and bridge the multi-verse.
Whether it's hosting MCU Need to Know with Leech in one universe or joining
us here to chat Marvel in this one, the universal friend, Daniel is back.
Welcome back, Daniel.
Friend Daniel: Thank you for having me back guys crossing the threshold,
Jude: creating nexus event.
Friend Daniel: Next is event.
Trey: Yeah, watch out.
Would it be a spoiler?
The TVA's gone.
There's no nexus event.
We can get
Friend Daniel: wild.
It wasn't, it wasn't ultimately it wasn't an alternate universe.
Cause I, I, earlier, when I was prepping for the, for the show, I
was like, man, I just did this for.
For episode one, but it was like, wait, that wasn't, that wasn't for this show.
Wait a second.
I had like this weird moment.
Cause it was, it was not like I wasn't talking to Trey and Chu.
So I had this weird moment.
Trey: Yeah.
Oh man.
That's so funny that at three for a loop a bit.
Well, yeah, it has been since that episode, since you've been on, I think
at this point, this has been your fourth appearance on the podcast.
So at this point, the audience is fairly familiar with your
experience with the MCU.
So I thought the best place we could start here at the top of the episode is
just kind of a general impressions of some of the new things that we've got.
So we got the Hawkeye trailer this past Monday at the time of the recording,
as well as a new movie with Shung.
G have you gotten a chance to see any of these?
I
Friend Daniel: have, um, I was able to watch the Hawkeye trailer when.
It is funny.
So I initially watched it without sound cause I was on at work
and, um, it just, it didn't, it translated really goofy and weird.
And I was like, and then I later I think I chatted with you Jude.
And then when I, when I went back and watched it with the sound, the
music, it's not silly at all, the music was, had this cool, like ominous
tone and then cut with the jokes.
It was great.
So I'm very excited about Hawkeye, more excited than I thought it would be.
I think Jude, I said to you, like, if it felt like jingle all the way.
Yes.
But that was before I watched it with sound, you know, and I was
like, what is this Christmas show?
Like, come on.
And then I went back and watched it with sound and I was like, it reminds
me, I was reminded of how good of an actor Jeremy Renner is and how much I
feel like he he's been under utilize.
By the MCU and like, that's fair because there are so many, there's
so many stories you can tell.
Um, and now he gets his chance, but it just reminded me of all
the good roles I've seen him in and I've always liked them.
Yeah.
And then I did Trey.
I was able to see Sean Chichi in the theater.
So I was fortunate to go to, uh, a kind of very low turnout
group with my wife and a friend.
And that was.
Just phenomenal.
I really, really enjoyed it.
I think that if, if you've seen movies like hero or house of flying daggers,
or definitely crouching tiger, hidden dragon, and you enjoyed those, you'll see.
Some resonances there, but it's definitely got the, uh, the,
the MCU twist and it's fresh.
So, um, I'll leave it there cause I know not everyone's able to see it yet.
And so it's, it's gonna, it'll it'll, it'll eventually jump up on Disney plus.
So, um, I'm sure once you do that, we'll be able to talk more about
it, but I really, really enjoyed it.
Jude: Well, Trey left out the Spiderman trailer.
Trey: I was buying.
Yeah.
What'd you think of the Spider-Man trailer?
Friend Daniel: I mean, it was bananas.
I mean, just it's this it's like what's going on.
So, I mean, I don't, I don't like to dissect trailers
because it'll either send you.
Rabbit holes and the internet that could possibly reveal actual spoilers,
or you'll just like speculate on stuff.
And I'm not too big on that, you know, I like to experience it
and then kind of forget about it.
Yeah.
And so like, I didn't, I didn't watch the, uh, the Eternals trailer, the second one.
I never watched that and I was forced to watch it
Trey: theater.
Friend Daniel: I was like, ah, man.
But I was, I was excited to see it.
So I was like, oh yeah.
Oh, well, you know, I guess I'll watch it.
But, um, so yeah, so I'm, I'm nervous about any more Spider-Man
trailers, but I love Spider-Man.
He's one of my, one of my top five characters and very interested
to see what's up with Dr.
Strange in that trailer.
Yeah, he don't seem right.
Jude: There is.
Trey: I think off is the perfect way to put it.
I think that was something juvenile zoned in on when we did our reaction.
And I thought, like I thought maybe we were doing our grains of sand thing
again, and it was very comforting to like get on the internet the next day.
And everybody's like, oh, that's not him.
Like everybody was on the same page that that's not straight.
Yeah.
It's
Jude: totally off.
Totally off.
Well, my theory, my theory from the, what if was like, oh, this is how we're getting
the no way home doctor strange, but then the whole reality collapsed on them and it
was like, okay, I don't think he served.
I
Friend Daniel: think he survived.
Like it just exists in a pocket, right?
Trey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
The weight of his responsibility.
It's not too dark.
No, there's one thing the MCU is known for its its chippy nature.
Yeah.
Friend Daniel: That's DC territory.
Jude: Oh man.
Well cool.
Thank you.
It could have been slow-mo.
Trey: Well, cool.
Thank you so much for sharing that with us.
But of course, if you downloaded this episode, you know that we're
going to be talking about season one, episode six of what if entitled, what
if Killmonger rescued Tony stark?
So the way we do this, as we're going to have some pre
spoiler thoughts followed by.
A audio cue, which will bring us into the spoiler zone where we'll break
down the episode into three acts.
So before we get there, we're going to talk about our priest, boiler thoughts.
So Daniel, if we can start with you, what are your pre spoiler
thoughts for this episode?
Friend Daniel: Okay.
I, I watched it twice and when I watched it the first time I enjoyed
it, I was excited for the episode and I was excited to see Killmonger.
And I thought the, uh, the music really took me back to the, the beats of the
story that, that, that comes out in that.
And then, um, I'm still, I, I watched the second time, I'm still
processing it and I'm doing my little critical, critical lens things.
So, but I'll leave it that I D I definitely enjoyed it.
And, uh, we'll, we'll see, as we unpack it, what, what more I can
Trey: say.
What about
Jude: you, Jude?
I am, we did on the first watch.
I still enjoyed it on the second watch, but I think I understand.
Better, uh, what you mean tray of what you, what you've said about
episodes you've liked and not liked.
And I think I kind of understand that a little better and I
can't free spoiler thoughts.
Can't get into that, uh, in detail, right at the moment.
Yeah.
And tray.
Trey: So, uh, we shared on social media, some of our quick, uh, day of priest,
boiler thoughts, and I, and I essentially said that I liked the stories that
stray the furthest from what we know.
And unfortunately this episode is not that.
And so I've been thinking about that a lot in terms of this episode,
as I did my subsequent viewings.
And I think at the heart of the issue here is there is this inherent impulse
within the creation of the show itself to retread familiar story beats.
And it does that instead of being something new.
And I just.
Um, pre spoiler thoughts.
I was going to say something, but I'm pulling back on that.
So I'll save it for the spoiler zone.
I just, I, I'm not connecting with it on an emotional level because of the
framing of where it wants to be rather than the potential of what it could be.
And so that's this episode, I think, highlighted that the most for me so
far, this season, so, well, yeah,
Jude: I just it's okay.
It's okay.
You don't have to
Trey: like them all.
Yeah.
It was you right?
We were, we were in the group message Daniel.
And you mentioned that if you liked them all, it would make
you question your objectivity.
So I appreciate that comfort last night before we recorded.
Friend Daniel: No, it's true.
It's true.
Jude: What am I?
My objectivity is coming into question.
No, it's not.
I don't like the second.
I didn't like the second episode.
Shame on you.
How dare you.
But that's what I mean, like I understand more anyways.
Friend Daniel: I think, I think I, I unlike so Trey, I think I have different,
different questions about it while they might be the same problem, but I
generally enjoy the episodes that, uh, like the name one tray that you were
talking about, like fits that mold.
Was it the, was it the, the who'd done it episode, episode three,
Trey: the most and the.
Yes that strays the furthest, oh no, no,
Friend Daniel: no, no, no, no, no.
The ones that, I'm sorry, I said that wrong.
The ones that like follow the story, like the captain Carter
one like that one captain
Trey: Carter.
Okay.
The Nick fury episode.
This one, this one.
Okay.
Which as a correction, because I tweeted out my personal record, the
episode so far I missed number them.
I said three, but I meant four.
I think the Dr.
Strange, even though it starts at a familiar place eventually
gets to somewhere new.
So which honestly that's off the rails.
Yeah.
So, uh, yeah.
That's, I think that's just what I'm looking for the most, because I
think if they try and just recreate at best it's uncanny and at worst,
it just feels like a lesser version of the story that we already saw.
Friend Daniel: Yeah.
Well, I want to get into it.
So let's say.
All right.
Yeah.
Let's go ahead and make the sound.
Trey: So as Daniel alluded to, you're going to hear an audio cure.
And on the other side, it's going to be fair game for all spoilers
in the MCU except Shung cheap.
So we'll see you on the other side
and we're back.
So the way we're going to be doing this as we're going to be breaking it down
into three acts, act one is going to start from the beginning of the episode where
it starts with the familiarity of Ironman one and Tony stark being under attack.
Except this time it is Erik Killmonger who saves him.
And this will take us all the way through the bunch mission to buy
more vibranium where Killmonger kills roadie and to challah, but starting
with you, Daniel, is there anywhere you'd like to start within this.
Friend Daniel: I just thought it was for the hearing you write that summary
kind of made me feel the, I don't know if it's what you felt like watching
the episode, but it's just like, it's just like, there's a lot of contrivance
that, that forced moments, right.
Is that, is that what you're getting at?
Like there were these moments that, that you could tell they wanted to get to.
And so they had to like jump through these crazy hoops in order to make them happen.
And whereas in the episode with, with Nick fury, Nick fury, as
the through line worked for me for Killmonger, I don't know.
It, it, he, he, his character was very consistent.
It's almost like what if Killmonger had like completely succeeded
in his, in his, in his act?
And I was like, oh, that sucks.
Like, like, like he's a bad dude.
I mean, he's got the, he's got the moral high ground.
I mean, w anyway, whenever we talked about black widow, I've never been on
your pod talking about not black with a black Panther, but I mean, it's like the
thing that, one of the things that makes black Panther so compelling, um, was the,
the, the, the argument between to challah and Killmonger, and that Killmonger had
kind of the, the, the better argument in terms of involvement in the world.
But his methods were just horrifying.
And then the, the man is like, he's just, he's soulless, you know?
I mean, he just, he's, he's smiling in one, on one hand, and then he's
literally killing you in the next breath.
Um, because you're a means to end.
Yeah, I felt that, but the deepest, when he, when he took roadie
out, I was really sad about that.
That really, really made me sad.
I was also sad about to challah, but I, um, I don't know why, cause
I kinda, it kinda wrote itself.
It was like, yeah, obviously he's going to kill, kill roadie now, but I don't know.
I kind of jumped all over the place, but,
Jude: well, okay.
It's interesting because up until up until the point that he basically
abandoned roadie in my head on the first watch, I was thinking.
That this was, we're seeing Killmonger go in a different direction.
Yeah.
Almost like a redemption or, you know, this is what's going to happen because
he met up with stark and then once he abandoned roadie, it kind of clicked.
He was like, okay.
You know, he's who he is.
Yeah.
And I guess if I had to have a complaint, sorry, tray, if I had have
a complaint to where, and sometimes I think it works for the episode and then
sometimes it doesn't is what, what, like with the first, uh, the first
episode Steve Rogers or Steve Rogers.
And even though we didn't get the serum, he was still Steve Rogers, like in
character and values and that, whereas Dr.
Strange, they changed him and that's what drove.
Yeah.
And so sometimes like, I guess my expectation is watching.
It is like, oh, Killmonger has changed.
He was like, no, he still who we know him to be.
And until I think that.
Not off-putting, but kind of difficult and thinking about,
what am I, what am I seeing here?
Trey: Yeah.
I think I'm kind of in this similar space with you, there was a specific quote that
stood out to me only your first watch and even more so in subsequent ones.
And it's from the watcher.
And it's, I think during the press conference where Tony is talking about
how he's going to be bigger and better weapons and whatnot, the watcher chimes in
with though, the man was saved, a hero was lost and a villain was given a new chance.
And that line stuck out to me because I thought, okay, here's the trade off?
We don't have iron man, but the line of villain was given a new chance.
I thought, okay, we're going to see a story where the proximity of this
relationship is what alters the course of Killmonger, but it really doesn't.
And that pacing from then on.
After, after a brief beginning of the second act, we're not there
yet, but after a brief, beginning of the second act, the pacing of both
movies just kind of are the same.
And I do want to say to lead into my next point.
It's so fitting that you're on this episode with us Daniel, because a few
weeks ago we were having a conversation.
And one of our group threads about, I personally am not a fan of stories
where the villain is the protagonist.
I think there are examples where it can be done well, and I do like it,
but it's rare for me to get into that.
And so placing this episode where, like you said, what if Killmonger succeeded?
It just, it doesn't feel like it even, it doesn't feel like it has the pace to
really examine the ramifications of that.
And so what's left.
Is this awkward feeling of an unimpeded Killmonger?
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and if you see some of the stuff going on and I know.
Uh, various opinions on venom.
Um,
Friend Daniel: but that's what we were talking
Jude: about.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
But that's the thing.
They tried to make venom likable, and it's Tom Hardy.
So you, he can pull it off sort of, and with Killmonger, they didn't try
to make him likable or, or the scenes that he was likable was all calculated
just to get his way as manipulative.
And so when you see that part of the episode, I think it's, uh,
that much heavier or heartbreaking.
Friend Daniel: I also think that the, whereas the other, the other
episodes, even, even the, um, the Dr.
Strange episode past.
A good balance of levity in the way that MC movies do you like the, the troll,
like just absorbing like a little evil
Trey: troll
Friend Daniel: is absurd, but it was like the writers, like how can we bring, drop
a joke when like you've got this crazy man absorbing all this demonic power or
whatever in this, there was just, no, there was no, the only comedic humor, the
only kind of, um, levity was, was Tony and Tony, you know, Ironman, Tony stark
was like, not the greatest, you know, like all his jokes were like, like I'm a
big jerk and you know, I'm a ladies man.
And so it was like, back then, it was like, it, it, it, it made sense.
And it was funny.
And also we kind of watched him go through this, this story
arc, but like just have it.
That was, he, he kind of became very flat and one dimensional.
And then, and then even as he was trying to.
Yeah.
I think that the one place where maybe this could be like, there is the, there
is the, the, the, the racial critique that is either implicitly or explicitly present
in Killmonger his direction, you know, his he's, um, he's trying to reclaim his,
his, uh, his birthright, but he's also on a, on a quest to, to, you know, liberate
and, and there's something real in that.
Um, and it comes out in the, in the scene.
Well, this is the second act, so I'm sorry, but it's like, it's, it's,
it's the scene where he says to Tony, like, if you don't see the difference
within us, that's the difference.
Um, and it's, it's very, it's very much right there on the surface, but I feel
like, at least from my perspective, it is.
It didn't, it wasn't shot through the episode in the same way that black Panther
it was, there was a coherence, right.
It was a coherent moral, that made sense
Jude: so well, and I think in that way, and I think Trey's mentioned it.
Oh, and which episode?
Hmm.
Now I'm not sure which episode Trey's referring to was referring to.
Uh, but it basically mentioned it about, because we have the
familiarity with these characters.
It's kind of taking advantage of that.
Like, like we know that.
Kill bonkers goal drive, why he's doing these things.
Right.
And so it kind of lets the writers maybe make that assumption that,
Hey, I can, there's a, there's already a built-in knowledge.
Yeah.
Friend Daniel: And we are here an example of where that worked really
well in an unexpected way was with in the Star-Lord episode, because it was
like how, because I was seeing Peter Quill and I'm like, ah, man is to
challah going to be like Peter Quill.
And he was to challah and it was like the universe, the galaxy was
this peaceful place because he was to challah and the galaxy and I was
like, this is, so this is so great.
And it's just like, it's like, yeah, he's challah and this,
this it didn't, I don't know.
It didn't click with me.
Maybe it's what you said, Trey, about the villain being the protagonist, because
it's a different kind of a story and.
Yeah, well, you know,
Trey: to play off what you say, cause you, you pulled that line from the
middle of the episode of the difference between you and me is you can't see the
difference between you and me and that on its own is an extraordinary line.
I like that line a lot, but the PR like black Panther did it better.
Like that movie resolved, evolves around that entire premise.
And this, this episode doesn't have the length or the pacing
or the pieces to make that work.
And so what the premise is, what if Eric Killmonger rescued Tony, start
it abandons that premise and it just wants to do the Killmonger thing.
And so it's like an incomplete story that they're dealing with.
Now you talked about the.
The movie leveraging our familiar knowledge.
I think one way, where does work in this episode.
So it just, so I'm not completely beaten this episode, the whole time is there's
a bit of misdirect that they have going on with Tony, where during that press
conference, you see him start to grow really solemn about all that he saw after
somebody asked him if he learned anything and you expect him to kind of have a
similar space that he does an iron man.
But instead the answer is we're going to be big, bigger, and better build more
weapons, or we're going to protect our people and realize he hasn't been humbled.
And so they have little moments like that, where they play on it.
Cause like, I think there's another moment.
It's like, what if we miniaturize the arc reactor now that would never work.
And so like they are playing, they are playing a little bit with the familiarity
of Tony, but it's just not enough.
The, the one last thing I would have to put in this, playing off the
familiarity, there is a scene wherever Tony and Killmonger are working on the
piloting or they're working on the.
As Tony called it, the Gundam and Tony mentioned the line
human pilots mean human error.
And I thought it was a very interesting line coming from him in this universe
because everything he did for sure, in those first two movies was
realizing the responsibility of the power and how in the wrong hands,
that power like it has to be him.
He's the only one that can control this because he's
learned what that power means.
And he's insecure in this because his reasoning is
human pilots meet human error.
Like he doesn't even trust himself still because he never went through
those trials of the first movie.
So I thought that was an interesting place.
They were playing with familiarity.
Friend Daniel: And I mean, the expectation is that we're, we're
getting an Ironman story with, with Killmonger in it, but it's actually.
It's Killmonger story.
Right?
One, one thing.
Cause I don't Trey I'm with you.
I mean like you all know, I don't, I get really, I usually get really
testy with you guys when you're all dumping on stuff in here.
I am dumping on it.
So
Trey: come on to have a seat it's real warm to be a, to B,
Friend Daniel: to B to come at this a little differently.
It's like, I think from a, from a, what I like about earlier the earlier
episodes is that especially the zombie one, so a balanced this like goofy
horror kind of shocking things with these moments of levity levity, and
then these, these really beautiful moments of interpersonal connection.
That we all like you all talked about.
And I thought that that kind of brought it home and balance it out well.
And that this episode from a, from a storytelling perspective, I feel
like they were trying to like Trey, you were saying they were trying
to fit, fit into these beats.
So, so they're trying to force it so quickly that they didn't have
time to sit and create those moments of, of, um, of humanity, uh, where
you were able to, to feel that.
And maybe, I mean, maybe they were there.
I just didn't, I didn't connect with them in the same way as I did with like all the
other episodes I've liked every episode up until now I can rank them, but like, I can
point to specific moments in each of the episodes where I, where it clicked for me.
And I felt like I understood what it was trying to say.
Whereas this one it's basically saying what, like you said, like
what black Panther was saying.
I mean, it's, it's not, I don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, at the end, the end.
So for me, I think I texted Texas used you that the end was really
the only thing that saved it.
So, uh, it made it, I was like, okay, I can get on board with this.
I don't know.
And I know I'm jumping all
Trey: around.
Well, you know, I definitely will have something to say once we get to the end.
And I think we, I think we're a lot closer on this episode than
we thought going into a day.
So, uh, I'm excited to get to that, but, uh, unless we got any more, we do
Jude: have one question for you guys.
Go ahead.
Um, now again, I said, I liked it and I do like it, but I think everything you're
saying a very valid there's, there's clearly some issues I had with it as well.
But one of the things that, that really I didn't like, and I don't know why
I'm curious if y'all didn't like it.
I don't think I liked seeing.
The I am iron man in game scene with the alternate
Trey: voice, 100% red flag.
It's like, why did they do that?
I saw that.
And I went, I, in my head, I went, oh, I'm scared.
Jude: And I don't dislike the alternate voice.
I think he's doing a good job.
Right.
And that's probably, it's a tough gig to have, um, replacing,
you know, Robert Downey Jr.
As Tony stark.
I was really surprised that used that line.
Friend Daniel: It was an
Trey: interesting choice now.
And I do think there, there is some credit there because I, again, I've,
I've been pretty hard on this episode, the, the voice actor for Tony stark,
I think doesn't have phenomenal job.
He did a great job of capturing that mannerism of Tony, but that line in
particular, that moment is so iconic.
You're throwing them to the wolves to try and recreate that.
And it wasn't necessarily like I get the point that they're trying to make,
but it just, I think you, you have the same point showing iron man among the
other vendors in that famous New York scene where you don't have to have the
line and you still get the idea of like, okay, this was this grand hero, but yeah.
It just, yeah, it, it, it, it didn't, it wasn't great.
Jude: Yeah.
So, and I will say the big thing that I did enjoy out of this first act.
I thought the writing for stark was pretty spot on in what you were saying.
He wasn't humbled and I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what stark
would have done in that situation.
Like, to me, it made complete sense of like, yeah, you're going to make
him COO, you know, you're going to, Hey, let's, let's get your
science fair project and do this.
Like, like that's the, in that way, it didn't bother me.
Cause it, it made to me, it made sense of like, no, he didn't go through this.
He wasn't humbled.
And because of that, he still had that arrogant cockiness that played through.
And so to me, I liked, you know, seeing that the whole.
What would stark have been like, had he not had his cave moment,
Trey: right.
Yeah.
And you know, it's interesting too, because one of the notes I wrote, I
was going to say for, for straight thought, but I'll, I'll bring it
up here to play in that space.
You know, you, you talked about that moment of him in the cave,
being humbled, becoming the man who would become iron man.
I never thought about like, he just built the suit in the cave.
He was a tinkerer long before.
And maybe that's like wrong of you to say as much as I praise Ironman
three for showing us that he was always that, but I never visualize
what it was like before the cave.
And so whenever Killmonger and Tony are hanging out in his garage and you see
the UI interface for Jarvis and all his equipment, I was like, oh yeah, this is,
this is what he would have been doing.
Had it not been for that moment, he would have been back to building stuff.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
There was a nice call back to iron man to actually,
Trey: in what way?
Jude: What was that?
When, when Killmonger showed them.
And he came and he blew up the rain to look at the elements and it had
that globe look, that was the same little a, you know, um, holographic
imaging Jarvis did when he was looking at, um, palladium from, you know, his
Trey: dad.
That's a nice catch.
Yeah.
Oh,
Friend Daniel: wouldn't wouldn't.
I think my, one of my students wrote, so, so this takes place.
What, eight, uh, eight years before the events of black Panther is that right?
Trey: Uh, it would've been around 2008, which is when iron man came
Friend Daniel: out.
And when did black Panther come out?
Trey: 2017?
Think it was 20 16, 20 17,
Jude: the February before and finish.
Trey: And that would've been 2018
Jude: because, because, because, yeah, cause the CAG was, uh, Bucky
getting his, uh, uh, his arm.
Friend Daniel: So this is like a nerdy nitpick, but like how old are they?
How old is the challah and how old is Kevin Killmonger?
They look the same
Jude: age.
My cousin all texted me and he figured it out.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
He made, he basically said that, okay.
A Shuri was around like the 10, 11 years old at the time of say Ironman and what
we see here and that would have put her in, like her twenties come black Panther.
And so Killmonger into challah should have been in their thirties.
And Killmonger, I think was, it was 1992.
And he was around the eight ish age.
Yeah.
When at the beginning of black Panther.
Gotcha.
Which would have, which would have put them around their twenties.
At the time of 2008.
Trey: Yeah.
Okay.
So it's, it's plausible, that's feasible.
Jude: Which, which, I mean, I'm glad, you know, my cousin he's like figured
it out and texted me all that, you know, and that also then you go to the
w like, what is the, what if episodes?
And what's the purpose.
If it's an alternate thing, does it have to fit the timeline that precisely.
Right.
And I guess it depends on how you're watching this.
If you're watching this, oh, I'm watching iron man and the main
thing and it deviates and some other universe then yet it needs to match up.
But if you're watching, it is like, oh, this is just familiar knowledge for, as a
base and something completely different.
I'm not sure it has to completely match up.
Yeah.
Because now you're talking what to Sharla and Quill are roughly the same way.
Trey: Yeah, I think, cause I think that was the Genesis of them wanting
to do that episode was like realizing they were the same age and they're
like, Hey, we could do something here.
Friend Daniel: And then last, last, last little point that I was
very happy about in this episode was that Don Cheadle is Roddy.
Yeah.
Trey: Very happy with that.
What an entrance to, with the way the glass like closes and you see
a Roddy's reflection again, for all the grapes I have with this series,
the F like the way they frame shots has been really phenomenal this year.
Oh,
Jude: I thought it was so awesome to hear Andy circus his voice again.
Trey: Yeah.
Which speaking of, I think that'll go ahead and transition us into act two,
which this is going to take us from Tony stark, realizing what Killmonger
has done all the way to the Wakandans accepting Killmonger as one of their own.
So dude, if we could start with you this time, uh, what
stuck out to you in act two?
Jude: So Trey, where I want to start is what I was talking about
and the preschooler thoughts.
Cause I think this is what you mean by hoping it will go further off in
a different direction because I feel like in act two, I have a note that
says at this point it becomes a cross between iron man, two in black Panther,
where you have the unmanned drones that you get from, you know, Right, right.
Or is it
Trey: vanco?
Ivan.
Vanco.
Yeah.
Jude: You know, the black Panther storyline.
And it's essentially those two movies kind of collapsed together.
And in that way, yeah.
It's not venturing off into new ground.
One of the things I've really enjoyed about the whatever episodes is
that feeling of I'm truly watching something I'm familiar with.
And I see that detour.
And so that's, I think part of what made me like this episode, but in this
second act psych, and I think, and I really liked what y'all said about okay.
It felt like we're going to see iron man, but really it's just
about Killmonger at that point.
Once they got rid of iron man, then it was like, okay, what do we do with these.
Things and, and so, yeah, like that converging.
So while I liked the episode, I think that helped me understand why you
didn't like or what you didn't like about those episodes versus the ones
that took a, uh, a bigger step out.
Friend Daniel: Um, I have a question when claw shows up in the, the
first time we see him, is that in, um, what movie is that in?
It's not a black Panther, right?
Okay.
Yeah.
So that whole scene is very ageable Trump, right?
Yeah.
See, there we go.
So it's again.
It's okay.
So it's, it's like, it's even out of order tray, like it's, it's like it's, it's,
um, it's, it's rehearsing or reenacting these scenes from, from the films.
Um, so this kind of tracks with.
I'm just confused by the, so I'm not even, like I told him, I said I enjoyed it the
first time, but the more I think about it, I'm just confused about what it's saying
or what, what it's, what it's doing.
Whereas like Peggy Carter was clear as day.
I mean, it was just very clear what it was doing.
Star-Lord clear zombies clear.
I mean, it's, it's zombies are pretty, you know, it's like superheroes zombies.
That was great.
And then, um, uh, Dr.
Strange, very clear, Nick fury, very clear.
It was like, it was like, you know, what, if we lose the heroes, we
basically get to see Trey was your point veggie basically to see phase
one from, from Nick Fury's perspective.
I thought that was awesome, even though it was all different.
Um, this, this was, I'm just not, I don't know what the through line
is and I, I don't know if watching it more as helping me or talking
about it more as helping me see
Trey: it.
You know, if I can meet the episode halfway, and if I can play in the space
that you are talking about, Jude about like seeing where it deviates that
fight between Tony and Killmonger.
I think that's what should have been the core of this episode
and the fact that that happens.
And Tony has done away with within like the first half of the episode.
I think that's where the episode abandoned its premise because.
It is this mashup of Ironman and black Panther.
And when it gets rid of the Ironman aspect of it, then you
lose your what if perspective?
And so the closest, I got to feeling like connected with what the episode was
doing was that fight, but we just didn't spend nearly enough time with Tony and
Killmonger to feel that fallout happen.
And at least for me personally get invested in it, but it,
I like that impulse there.
It just, it came way too early in the episode for me.
Yeah.
Jude: Well, I'm wonder I'm a good employee in that space.
I wonder if in, I wonder if in the writing that it initially felt like a good idea.
And they got to that point.
And then they were like, oh, we have 15 minutes left.
Um, but I, I mean, cause I, I mean, I see what you're saying, right?
Like, like it's, it's you put these two characters together
and that gets resolved here.
Yeah.
Rather than in the end.
Yeah.
And I guess, honestly, I think this is, I, I don't know if I would have liked it.
I, I think I would've liked it less that way.
Cause, cause if in the end that's what the resolving fight was.
And you have Killmonger when you don't get to see what's next.
Yeah.
Or you have to have Tony win that battle, you know,
Friend Daniel: or there's a draw.
I mean the one thing you say is there's.
And they fold it, they fold it into, they fold them more explicitly into the
black Panther story, because I mean, in a sense like the U S government's kind
of a stand in for Tony at that point.
So my brain's been working this whole time.
You guys have been talking, so like, if we're going to take Killmonger,
his words, you know, like the U S and the U S government are the
oppressor and that's who Tony stark is.
Right.
So like, instead of letting the 10 runs capture him and do their thing,
he saves him because he's infiltrating Tony instead of like, following along
and going along with that Killmonger captured like, like ingratiates himself
with Tony in order to use him to.
He gets out of the jam because he thinks he's got Tony fooled still in
tune is like, you can't fool me on.
So he gets out of the jam by killing him and then manipulates the situation.
So you go take Wakanda, but the, the U S government kind of has a stand in now
for, for what Tony represented in terms of
Trey: power.
Well, I mean, even if you take away the humility that Tony eventually
gains in the movies and the prime timeline, the us government was
constantly trying to get his weapons.
And so you can make an argument.
Cause I mean, him having that confrontation with Killmonger.
Yeah.
Tony stark is, is not the greatest person in the world, but he was a very thin,
but there was somewhat of a moral ground when he was trying to stop kill monger.
And then when Killmonger gets rid of it, The, the us government does what they were
trying to do, even in the prime timeline.
And it warps what Tony was trying to do in either one of those
situations, if that makes sense.
So I get what you mean about it being a stand in for Tony, because there's
even, I'm peeking ahead a little bit, but we've, we've kind of been peeking
through on each act, even in that final act where the us government of regret
arise, rise up with condom and they do the trick to get the, the max inside.
And then they closed the shield.
Killmonger has that line.
It was like, ah, Tony stark, he must have had a secret transmitter or something.
He's evil.
Jesus, he's a villain.
He's
Friend Daniel: a, he's a bill.
He's a true villain or something.
So like, okay, there's a through line.
Yeah.
Trey: So even there, they are using Tony as like, even though he's gone, the, the,
the presence of him is still being used.
Yeah, but he's like a,
Friend Daniel: he's a star, he's a stand in for the mites, you know?
Um, and I mean, what's that, what's heartbreaking about it though,
is, is, this is my earlier point about the, the moral high ground.
Is that even like, like the whole reason why there was a conflict between,
between Wakanda and the United States was because Killmonger had murdered
black Panther and Roddy and then made it look like they killed each other.
So it's it's, I don't know.
Trey: Yeah.
I have one more point to make in this act.
And it, it I'll say this, you know, dude, at the very start of this podcast, you and
I talked a lot about how villain, like the hero is as great as their villain because
the villain and bodies, the challenge that the hero is trying to overcome.
And it was interesting that despite me not liking this episode, it
was an exercise in showing how.
The reverse is also true because if we're going to play in this space where
Killmonger remains the Ville and he was in the movies as he is here without
a challenging hero, because it's not Tony, uh, it's not black Panther.
There's no challenging force to him.
He falls flat as for me as a villain.
And so it really goes to show that dynamic between your two central characters and
how they bring out the best of each other, even as protagonists and antagonists.
And I think that's where I was starting to, to really cause, I
mean, I have my emotional reactions.
Like I texted you my first reaction to the episode, Jude, and then I try and be
a little bit more even keeled about it.
And it is, I think there is a lack of an antagonist in this.
There's just like a one note moving forward of, of what Killmonger wants.
And so it really goes to show.
What made black Panther work was the interconnectedness of those two cases?
Jude: Well, what I find interesting is they, they, in a way tried to give us
that, but those characters were stifled the whole way until the very end.
That was pepper and Shiri.
Yeah.
Friend Daniel: Which absolutely.
Yeah.
I might, my emotions awakened and I was like, show me that story, you know, like
show me, show me that story, because it captures the dynamic that you were talking
about, Trey, about the, the, the, uh, the relationship protagonist, antagonist.
That was, that that was kind of missing, you know, he was his own antagonist.
Cause he was, he was play acting both sides.
Hold tight.
Yeah.
I mean, he's a genius.
Yeah.
Jude: Right.
But they, I mean, like they had pepper suspicious from the very beginning of.
And maybe, I wonder if it would have been more satisfying if the discoveries was
more blatant by pepper or more blatant by Shiri and not a kind of, oh, by the
way, I figured this out at the end.
Yeah.
Maybe.
And maybe some conference may.
Okay.
So here's, here's maybe what they should have done.
Maybe they should have found a way to have Shiri and pepper figure out
that Killmonger was manipulating everyone and them resolve it somehow.
Like, like, and Killmonger gets caught and then you have the line
heroes are never really gone.
They live forever as ones they inspire to, you know, carry on the fight.
I don't think they can do that in this episode.
Not that they can't, I don't think they want to, just because of
how heavy and dark the last three
Friend Daniel: have been.
Yeah.
Strange zombies.
Yeah.
Hey Trey, when you, so you and I, this, this resonates with me, but like when,
when you talk about like villains being the protagonist, like, okay, strangest
story is kind of like that, but we know at the end, he he's remorseful.
Um, even though it's ho it's, uh, it's, it's hopeless.
Like it's a litter, it's literally a hopeless situation.
And so it's quite dark, but it's not dark because he's horrible.
It's dark because he's now realized, I mean, it's horrible because everyone's
gone, but also he now realizes how horrible he is or what he's done.
And so that realization is also, you know, is also quite dark, but, but
there's, it's not redemption, but it's at least it's at least, um, morality.
Um, whereas this, this is not there's the there's no, um, I don't know.
There's no progression.
Yeah.
There's no, there's no.
Jude: What I'm saying is like in the writers or creators mind, I, they probably
thought that in with pepper and Shiri was satisfying enough to give us that,
Trey: you know, well, so I'll go ahead and say, we're, we're fully
transitioned into the final act of the episode, which is that final battle
of Wakanda all the way to that moment where we see pepper and Sheree team up.
And so I want to respond to both things.
I'll start with what you said, Jude, about the pepper insurance thing.
I think I agree that by far they're the most interesting thing that
this episode has going for it.
And you zone in exactly with what I was feeling Jude with the watcher statement.
Uh, if you remember, he opens up this episode about how, you know, we lost
one hero and a villain got another.
And then it bookends with the watcher saying the hero never really dies.
They inspire others to keep going, but apparently not the episode
because that's where it ends.
Like if that's the, the thesis is these heroes, even when they're
gone inspire others to take up their place, we should have had way
more focus on pepper and Sheree.
And yes, you're right there.
Pepper was very suspicious from the beginning and even Sherry too, whenever
Killmonger gets back to Wakanda, she was very apprehensive about letting
them back in, but that's not where the episode wanted to frame it.
It, it was more focused on Killmonger.
I think that given, and, and as a reminder, whenever you
talk about protagonists and antagonists, there's it's, I, I
think this is the right phrasing.
There's a lack of morality.
It's not a good or bad person.
It's just the opposing force to the central character.
Shuri and pepper should have been the antagonist to kill monger if they
wanted him to be the protagonist.
But that just, it wasn't where it was at.
I think Daniel, you brought up the idea about the villain being the protagonist.
Whenever we had our.
Conversation about it on discord in our group message.
I mentioned I'm okay with a story focusing on the villain, but the story has to
know that they're not in the right.
I don't think this episode does that.
And the best place that exemplifies it is in that battle, knowing everything
is happening in lives are lost because of what Killmonger has done and pitted
these people against each other, made it so hard for me to connect with
moments where to mother mother's crying and shouting for, for, to Charla.
It's what's going on here to empty.
Yeah.
And then, and then it's like, I think the biggest sin of this episode is
having Killmonger shout Wakanda forever.
Not only because I think the performance is very lackluster, but
it's just like, it's, it's that same feeling I had about them redoing the,
I am iron man seen from end game.
It's just like, what are you doing?
Friend Daniel: I can't, I'm not sure if it happens in this act
of the before, but we, we forgot.
We forgot to talk about it.
And that's when he becomes black Panther and he meets to challah in the
afterlife and the lines are telling because it, it, all it shows to me is
that Killmonger is one dimensional to Charla, says why you're doing this.
There's an, and, and, and Congress is for vengeance.
The cure is power.
Right.
And just get more power.
I mean, it's very.
It's very one dimensional.
It's very like, it's very like, you know ha you know, I mean, it's, it's it's yeah.
I just wanted to mention that scene.
Well, I hope that
Trey: I'll say this really quickly.
And then I want to, I want to turn back to YouTube.
Cause I think you were about to say something.
The reason it works in the movie is because you take the time to
learn what all Killmonger has lost.
We can get no service to that in this, like it's in the movies.
That would have been a lot more impactful.
If it did play out this way and you have to child in the afterlife.
Lee lecturing them about how, what you're seeking and the path
you're on is not going to bring you the redemption you want.
Because we knew that he witnessed his father getting murdered
and was left to be on his own.
And he didn't have that guiding hand from any adult in his life.
But in here it is that one dimensional mustache, twirling.
I'm going to take over the world because it just didn't give the depth of story.
Jude: Well, in the movie, I think it worked because both times we
saw that it was to challah and Killmonger with their fathers.
And then you see to Charlie and Killmonger their fight and that conversation.
As Killmonger is dying and seeing the sunset here.
Hmm.
I think it's another case of them relying on our knowledge of the black
Panther movie and who challah is to say, this is going to be a powerful scene.
Yeah.
Friend Daniel: I mean, that's okay.
It just, and, and Trey, I think, I don't think that the episode needs to do all
the, all the lifting that black Panther has done cause his past is the same.
It's just that the way that he played off of to child, it's almost like what
I said at the beginning of the podcast, which is like, this is like, what if
Killmonger had just won, you know, like, and just like steamrolled everybody.
And there was no one who really stopped him.
There was no real opposition to his ascent and that's what you get and it's flat.
And it's a little boring and it's a little one dimensional.
I mean, that's, that's basically my conclusion because everything else
it's, it's, it's, there's a logic to it.
And he's emphatic when he talks to, to challah and the afterlife
or wherever that space is.
And he says, it's for vengeance.
It's, it's the, you know, uh, hang on.
I wrote it down.
He says, uh, the cure is power, but I'm like, I'm like, ah, you know, there's
no, there's no, there's no contrasting perspective to, to challenge it.
And that's what made for me.
That's what made black Panther so good.
And it did it in a way that hit right on the nail of the, you know, the
experience of, of black people and the struggles that he went through and, and
who the Wakandans are and their identity.
That was all just, it just didn't have the same pull, I guess.
Yeah.
And the other stories.
Well, I thought all of them worked and they worked for me,
uh, to varying degrees of success.
And this one didn't
Jude: no, I just, I also just found it interesting.
Cause they actually got Michael B.
Jordan to come back for this one.
And, and for, for you to say a lackluster performance.
Hmm.
I don't, I'm not gonna say I disagree with you because even
when he said, well, he means
Trey: just enough
elsewhere.
Well,
Jude: that's, I'm just saying I'm not going to disagree because I
had, when he said Wakanda forever.
You're right.
It wasn't the same for me.
I feel like Michael G B Jordan is a really good actor.
Oh yeah.
And so I'm wondering if that was intentional from, from the standpoint
of he has, this is the first time he's ever experienced Wakanda.
So that phrase doesn't mean as much to him or not going to have the same meaning.
As I say to challah.
And so, and so I'm wondering if that was a creative choice to reflect his
relationship with Gioconda as distant.
Friend Daniel: For it to be a bit distant.
Yeah.
It felt that way.
I like that.
I think it was supposed to be like, eh, you know, it's supposed to make you go.
Eh,
Trey: I like that read a lot like that, that wins me over a little bit.
I think it's just, when you add up everything else going into
that moment, that's where I was already like checked out.
But I think you, you have a very, very great read on that.
Like, yeah.
I, this would have been his first experience.
Cause even when you said, I think you said recreated, but essentially
you said something to the extent of like him doing this again.
My first thought was, well, he didn't say what kind of forever in the black
Panther movie, but you're right.
That, that's why it's a different feeling for him because he doesn't have
those experiences to Chatelet head.
Jude: Score one for me.
Trey: I'm sorry.
I swear.
I came into this episode.
I was like, I don't want to be a party pooper.
I don't want to be a party pooper and I didn't expect Daniel to be on my side.
It's
Jude: okay.
You know, I, and again, I truly meant it.
Like y'all are giving really good valid points, you know?
And so I don't have, again, as much as I do and I did enjoy the episode.
I, I think, I think if y'all were saying the same things about
last week's episode or the Dr.
Strange episode, I probably would have a stronger reaction in
defending it, if that makes sense.
And so I w well, I do, I didn't enjoy this episode.
I'm not getting that.
I'll admit I'm not getting that feeling of like, I'm jumping to its defense.
Yeah.
He can catch the truck kinda, kinda feeling, you know, I'm just
not like, like I have the more feeling of like, yeah, you're right.
He should have got crushed by the truck, you know, um, kind of feeling with this
episode and, you know, I was looking, cause I wanted to double-check Michael B.
Jordan, you know, doing that voice on IMD, take it for what it's worth.
The two lowest rated episodes so far on IMTP are the first and the
first, the first one in this one.
Wow.
You know, uh,
Trey: seven point highest or lowest, lowest it cut out for a bit.
Okay.
So I take back my, well,
Jude: no, the, the, the lowest where the first one in this one, the highest was Dr.
Strange with nine stars.
Wow.
Um, episodes two, three, and five or 8.1 stars.
Okay.
Friend Daniel: Yeah, I can see why.
I mean, Michael B.
Jordan Killmonger.
Great character.
Why wouldn't we want to see him again?
Yeah.
And like th the, the contrivance of putting him together with Ironman.
Fantastic.
The great idea.
And I just didn't, I wasn't thrilled with the third act.
The second.
I mean, the, the, the second, the second act, the beginning of the second act,
when he, you know, he takes out Tony, it just doesn't, it feels like it, it
went away from its original premise and it kind of falls flat for me.
Trey: I have a feeling that we're pretty much at the end of act three.
So that's going to leave us with our stray thoughts.
This is the section for us to just kind of have any loose thoughts from the
episode we didn't cover in the acts, starting with you, Daniel, what are
some of your stray thoughts for this.
Friend Daniel: First on the positive side, the music was fantastic at many different
points in many different registers.
When, when Tony and Killmonger are walking, it's got the,
just really cool music.
And then the scene, when, you know, the, like the, uh, the tinkering scene,
when they're building the, the, the Gundam anime inspired ship, that,
that music was really, really cool.
And then just a stupid comment was I couldn't help, but laughing.
And then on second watch, I laughed even harder.
The drone come, they like cut to the drone command center and it's a freaking
parking lot and a square building.
It's the
Trey: most boring thing you've ever seen.
Friend Daniel: It's like, what, who designed that?
Like, this is a cartoon.
Like, they're really trying to be real.
Okay.
Like, I'm like, at least, like if you're going to spend money on,
on a, on a building, it's just, do you guys even remember seeing it?
No.
No, actually just so fast.
And it's like, it's literally says drone command center and I'm like,
really, like, that's like a parking lot and like a cube, you know?
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
Those are my, those are my stray thoughts.
Trey: What about you?
What
Jude: about YouTube?
Yeah.
I'm with you.
I love the music.
Uh, cause it was a lot of callback, the chirping of the Dora, you
know, and the, in the Killmonger.
Ha let's see.
And I liked that you brought up how, how this is a cartoon and like
they just went small and going big because the, when Killmonger shows.
And grabbed the missile and threw it.
It just reminded me of the old eighties, GI Joe cartoon.
You know, it just, it just did.
I had a note that, you know, we are visiting a universe where happy, never
becomes the forehead of security.
You know, I had some good ones.
Yeah.
Like I completely missed the foreshadowing of Tony dying, where he talked about
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.
Oh yeah.
Pepper pointed out.
He dies, you know, and I didn't even catch that until the second viewing, you
know, I it's interesting to Charlie at the same end as his uncle in the movie, the
black pants or close to the abdomen, no.
Or just challenges or roadie did roadie did roadie did.
Okay.
So yeah, I guess I got that wrong.
The other thing is, I'm sorry, we're getting a whole lot of to challah.
Yeah.
Through the what F yeah.
Across multiple episodes, uh, which leaves me have two more thoughts and I'm
going to, I'm going to build, well, I have some others, but the two hour I want
to stay stick with here is this could have ended very early because you had
the drone grab Killmonger by the throat.
And at that point I'm like, dude, if Tony was a true killer, you just
like crush his throat right there.
And we're done, you know, and part of me at that point, you kind of
expected that of Tony, but man, we would have taken a really dark
turn if that's the way it went.
And then I, the last two, and I'm curious if you guys caught this.
I don't know if I caught it.
I was paying attention to the second one second.
Watching was.
Frank Ken was talking to, he said he felt like to Charlie's voice sounded a little
bit weaker and was wondering if, if it was just him or if it was the case of
where Chadwick Boseman was in terms of his cancer treatment, when he did the lines.
I mean,
Friend Daniel: it's possible.
I mean,
Jude: you know, and, and I'm not sure, like I, once he mentioned that in my
second watch, I was kind of trying to listen for it, but I wasn't, I
couldn't tell if I was just hearing things, you know, uh, if it was really
there and, you know, given Chadwick's death, I thought there was a, a really,
probably a deeper meaning than what they originally intended with that
final line, uh, which I really like.
And made me wonder, is that something that was part of the original plan or
did they go back and pick that up later?
Cause I know, I think the writer said that being animated, they wrote these
scripts about like two years out.
Otherwise they would have used the term nexus event more and instead of, um,
uh, the, the absolute point and Dr.
Stranger's thing.
Trey: Oh, okay.
That makes sense.
Oh, interesting.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Friend Daniel: Yeah.
So, um, what was I going to say with Chadwick Bozeman?
I think that, I think they were trying, I think he was, he was probably
supportive of this, but they were trying to, to put him in as much as possible.
Right.
Like I think they were, I think they were trying to, to, to bring
to challah, to life as much as possible, knowing that, that.
That he, he was, you know, that he wasn't coming back.
Um, and I don't know.
I couldn't tell you Jude, if it was later added later or not, but, um, I
can understand why they're doing it.
I'm glad.
Jude: Yeah.
So a tray that leaves you and you're straight though,
Trey: for me, uh, I've only got a couple I'll start with, with the drum
that I keep beating this entire season.
The water is becoming more and more defined as we get into this series.
To the point you could, like there were details to his face
and like, not just a silhouette in the sky, but an actual character.
So I don't know if that means anything.
I thought it was worth highlighting.
Another one I wanted to point out, I forgot where I was going to share this
online, but it was just like, it was too.
And I don't know if nuance is the right word, but it's, I want to
make sure I'm saying this lightly.
It was very funny to me in that scene where they're giving the press
conference and Obadiah is revealed to be the bad guy and happy Hogan is
the one who comes in to like Dexcom.
And he goes, oh, I always hated that guy.
That line is so much funnier to me knowing that John Fabro
directed iron man and assuming Jeff Bridges is a delight to work with.
So to just pretend to deco him and say like, oh, that guy
sucked had to have been fun.
And the recording,
sorry.
That got to chuckle.
Jude: Always hated.
It was,
Friend Daniel: I had, I had flashes of priest Vistola from clone wars.
Cause he voiced an, a character from, um, from film, from clone wars.
And he's got this like whiny high, like high pitch thing.
I don't know.
That's all, that's all I thought of.
Um, when he was a.
Jude: Yeah, no, I was just going to say, I thought her John MacLean,
Trey: it fits doesn't it.
Jude: Oh
Trey: man.
Right.
My, uh, my final two straight thoughts and they're in the same section,
really loved, uh, Killmonger going.
What?
I like anime, knowing how much Michael B.
Jordan likes anime.
So I'm glad he got to interview that into his character.
And it's extra funny that the Gundam design reveal happens right before Tony
says, Hey, you got an eye for branding.
And he was like, oh, okay man, maybe not.
So he ate his words a little bit.
So that, that got, that got a consistent chuckle out of me every time.
So
Jude: yeah.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
Nevermind.
What's up.
No, I wouldn't say we're in a straight thought to this point, but that was
the other thing that just popped into my head about that whole iron man.
Two thing that design was very similar to yeah.
As well.
Trey: Well, that's going to wrap up our stray thoughts, but we've been
having a lot of fun doing this.
So we're going to do it here in this episode as well, which is
we're going to read through some of the audience's first tastes.
So we posted on Instagram and Twitter are pre spoiler thoughts, and we were
able to get some reactions from others.
So starting with this one, this one comes in from new type dot Nova and
it says, quote, I thought it was an interesting take in quote, and I kind
of feel that because I think as, as much as I've been beating on this episode,
I think there is, uh, uh, interesting premise here somewhere so I can see
where they're coming from on that one.
Jude: Yeah.
The next one we have, uh, been Maddie.
It was a fun episode.
We'll condos always cool.
Ending was a bit abrupt though in quote.
Um, yeah, I think honestly, I think listening to this episode,
we ended up agreeing with them that, well, you could almost say
that about a lot of these episodes.
Um, cause I feel like some of the conversations I have is, oh, I
want to see what's next, you know?
And um, I don't think we're going to get those.
Friend Daniel: Okay.
The next audience first take was, uh, from me from Daniel.
Uh, and you know, this is back before my second watch and I wrote
a quote loved seeing Kilmore.
Story worked for me and quote, well, obviously, um, he was wrong.
Mine's changed.
Jude: Well, okay.
We, we said in the beginning, you know, we're defying the TVA.
So which friend did?
Yes.
Friend Daniel: Right?
Which friend Daniel was this?
Yeah.
Trey: Is this the leach friending?
Jude: Oh, it's all simulation tray.
Trey: Okay.
All right.
I'm going to go ahead and start with the next one.
So I don't have my own existential crisis.
Uh, this one comes in from the slushie and it says, quote, I was pretty into it, but
damn everything sir, work to perfectly.
Huh?
Some of these episodes better have a part two though.
And I think that's very much in line with what you were saying, Jude.
Uh, and about what Ben Maddy was saying about how abrupt it was.
It, I, this is me coming in on this.
It can't be a coincidence that nearly every episode ends with a cliffhanger.
So I'm assuming something has to be being set up for that.
Jude: Yeah.
And then see, and the thing is, I was talking with Ken today at work and it's
like, well, is season two going to be picking up on these cliffhangers, but if
it does, that means we have a whole other season of what if that doesn't explore
Sean Chichi and all this other content.
Friend Daniel: Yeah.
I don't, I don't, I don't, I honestly don't think that's right.
I think that, I think that, um, so in the tradition of what if they would
always end on, they would always end on cliffhangers, um, because
it was always about possibility.
Like, you know, um, I don't know.
I mean, it's certainly possible, but I don't, I don't think, I don't
think we're like, we already did the Killmonger episode, so, so why are
we going to do another one when there are so many other stories out there?
Yeah.
Well,
Trey: yeah.
You know, I'm so glad you're here because you actually, I think
you mentioned that in our discord about how the spirit of what if
was they did and done cliffhangers?
Was it all, was it always single issue or did they last a couple of
issues before that arc was closed?
I'm
Friend Daniel: almost positive.
There were single issue.
Okay.
I'm pretty sure I was not a, I was not an avid.
What if re.
But th it was, oh, I I'm almost certain that they were all one shots.
Not only it was like, it was like a run, but it was like, it was like,
I dunno, a hundred, 100 comics, but I mean, or more, but they were
always, what if this, what if this, it has never, I don't ever remember
Jude: there being, I was gonna say, if I remember right, sometimes the, what ifs
didn't even have its own comic, right?
Like it was at the end of a comic.
It was like its own separate story.
Uh, and the only reason why I say that is like one of my favorite
comic artists, Todd knock.
Um, his first paid gig with Marvel was doing a, what if?
And I think he said that was only a couple of pages.
Like it wasn't, I don't think it was a full comic.
So,
Trey: Hm.
Yeah.
Well, that's good to know.
I, I, I'm so glad we got to this point because it was something that
I meant to ask you going into this Daniel, because I knew we had that
conversation, but it almost slipped away.
So I'm glad we were able to circle back to it.
Cool.
But yeah, that's going to wrap it up.
So thank you for all those who sent in their first takes on the episode.
We really appreciate it.
Uh, and we look forward to hearing more from people who watched the episode, but
regarding this one, Daniel, I want to say, thank you so much for doing this.
This has been a lot of fun.
Friend Daniel: Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
It was an interesting experience.
Cause normally I am the, uh, I'm the cheerleader
So, you know, normally I'm like give them a break, cut up some slack, you know,
You know, take them for what it's, you know, give them the benefit of the doubt,
but, you know, exception that proves the
Trey: rule.
I don't know, you know?
Yeah.
We all standards you've won me over.
Jude: Um,
Trey: it was he all along,
Friend Daniel: which, by the way, did you see that, um, that song picked up an Emmy.
Oh, nice.
Yep.
It won the Emmy.
I got the all along when the test picked up, uh, uh,
Trey: quite a few, at least more fantastic mate.
Jude: Again, thinking of the shows.
It should have
Trey: 100%.
Yeah.
Well, if you want to keep up with Daniel and all his musings, make
sure that you were joining in the discord where he frequently, uh, talks
about the episodes with all of us.
But if you want to reach out to us and have any thoughts or opinions on this
episode, or what if in general you can always reach us at MC you need to know
on Twitter and Instagram, uh, we've been doing a lot of work to put up some more
content than just clips from the episode.
We have some bonus clips that don't make it into the final cut that you hear in
the podcast feed, as well as, um, just quick thoughts of the episode on the
day it releases if not the day after.
So you get a bit of a taste of what we're going to talk about here in the episode
without having to wait until Monday.
If any of that is of your interest, make sure that you headless out by following
us on those social media accounts.
Jude: And of course, be sure to check the show notes for the link to
join the discord, where you can find all three of us and others that are
really in love talking about the MCU.
Uh, when you do join, please make sure you click on the role, assign
click on the emoji so you can have access to all the spoiler channels.
Uh, also we'd appreciate it for a rating in review.
Uh, the feedback is super helpful for us.
You know, if you'll like, what you listened to, um, sharing with
a friend is also a huge help.
Trey: Yeah.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is
his rendition of the Avengers thing.
You find more of his work on his SoundCloud, which is linked
in the show notes as well.
That's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Daniel and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
We'll see you all
yeah.
You
Friend Daniel: didn't.
You have a podcast
Trey: about it tray.
Yes.
Jude: What's ups fed testing.
Trey: Do you still listen to it too?
I have to.
Friend Daniel: I have to go listen to it because I'll send you the link.
So recognizes that show was something else, which I mean like game of
Thrones seasons, the first five seasons were like something else.
I
Trey: mean, it was like I got in on the last.
So I got to watch the earlier ones.
Oh yeah.
I watched the early ones, but I didn't start thinking
like, Hey, a podcast would be.
Until, like the last one.
Oh, that
Friend Daniel: sucks to watch it.
Did you watch it as it went or did you get caught up?
I was there day one.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it was like, it was remarkable.
And then, yeah, and then like I read the books and then the books,
I was like, what's going to happen.
And then it was like season six and I was like, okay, this is, uh, and
then season seven was just trash.
It was just like utter
Trey: garbage.
I don't listen to
Jude: trace podcast because what you get is someone who was there from
day one going into the last season.
So excited.
You hear the disappointment gradually build into anger because
Trey: you
Friend Daniel: want you're like, you're like, this
Trey: is going to be good truck.
Friend Daniel: It really doesn't does it tray.
Jude: It's so funny.
Trey: We're still disappointed.
She didn't show up for the last episode.
Oh
Friend Daniel: yeah.
You told me that it makes the truck look tame.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.