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Yay.

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Yeah, yay, welcome Cherie

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Okay, look, I'm gonna say I have got a little bit of my fan club girl thing out before we
even jumped on live, but I'm gonna do it for our audience sake because those who know me

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well will know that this is a MasKareer highlight.

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I have been absolutely championing

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you and cheerleading from the sides for such a long.

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with the work that you do at The Digital Picnic, but also just for you as a human and to
have you here in conversation today, speaking about neurodiversity, leadership, and just

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what it takes to bring our workplaces into the modern day society, to be kind and to drive
impact.

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I'm literally jumping out of my skin with enthusiasm.

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So enough fan clubbing.

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Welcome, welcome, welcome.

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I'll throw over to you.

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First and foremost, to introduce a little

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about the origin story behind what brought you into The Digital Picnic, founding your
digital media marketing agency.

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I guess the why behind your founder story.

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Yeah, I was reflecting on this.

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I've been reflecting on it a lot because, you know, we've just hit our 10 year birthday as
a company that felt like a celebration, you know, in and of itself.

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But of course, it just kind of forces you to think back to, yeah, how it all began.

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And I kind of like ended up laughing because I realized TDP's origin story was just PDA,
autistic woman energy, because I can just honestly actually remember the moment where I

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thought,

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something like this has to exist.

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was sitting in, you know, the relevant tertiary qualifications and I was reviewing the
curriculum and it was just horrific with its, it was so outdated.

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It was embarrassing.

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I remember the lecturer himself describing himself as bored and uninspired and a little
bit embarrassed to present what he was presenting.

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And I just thought, really?

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What I was saying was that loud, you know, but even if he hadn't, we knew anyway, we could
look at the timestamps and just,

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understand that what we were learning wasn't fresh.

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So I remember in that moment, and I didn't know that I was an autistic woman in this
moment, but I remember thinking the moment I am in this industry and I've clocked enough,

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you know, hopefully expertise, I'm going to launch something that is so much more
inspiring than what's on offer here.

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And I want to fill like marketing, digital marketing knowledge gaps for really curious
humans who are lifelong learners at heart.

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So

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Yeah, that was that was sort of how it all began.

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We just, you know, I clocked all of the experience.

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I was out in the industry for over a decade past that kind of moment.

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Got the experience that I felt like I, you know, needed to clock and then hit go on the
digital picnic and welcomed really great humans all over Australia to come and learn right

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in the moment practical marketing.

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Yeah, that's incredible.

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I didn't know that about your university origin story.

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Brilliant, that disruption, that disruption.

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So you do speak quite openly about autism and being an autistic woman.

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wonder if you could share with our listeners, many of whom are curious about
neurodiversity and are coming into the conversation really for the first time, and then

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others who are really in the depths of understanding neurodivergent profiles.

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So we've got a really broad listener base, but for you.

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Having had a late diagnosis as well is my understanding of autism and understanding your
profile.

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What's it been like to then get to know yourself through that lens of neurodivergent
strengths and struggles and how you show up in the world?

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Yeah, it is a lot, you know, and especially to be late diagnosed, that felt like a lot,
but I don't try to sort of dwell on that too much because the reality is when I think

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about it, maybe it was for the best because I think about being diagnosed in the 1980s, to
be really honest, I'm just not completely convinced I would have had a great time, you

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know, with that experience.

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I'm not sure, I can't go back in time, so I'll never know.

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But yeah, there are parts of me that just think maybe it was for the better, that I sort
of like dodged that identification in the 80s.

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So yeah, look, then you are diagnosed and to be really honest, sat in 12 months of
absolute silence following my identification because I think that's what probably honoured

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my processing speed.

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that's really genuinely how long it took actually a whole year, to just process.

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it was like, going back in time and seeing situations and thinking, my Lord, you know,
could just literally remember particular situations where they're the moments I would have

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loved to have known, you know, as an example, but for my team as well, some of my team
have

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are still here now and have been at the digital picnic for as long as we've employed human
beings.

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And I would say it's probably been huge for them as well to watch me four years into, you
know, the journey of employing them then recognize I'm an autistic woman.

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And I would say it feels like an entirely different organisational leader now because you
just you you go through this huge

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I guess just recognition of who and what you are and how you show up and move through the
world.

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But you also unmask pretty rapidly.

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It's like taking the bra off after a long day.

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I just couldn't wait to get it off once I recognized and realized the plethora of ways
that I was masking as a leader before, you know, I got that.

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Yeah, some people call it a piece of paper.

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I would say it was so much more than that, you know.

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So it's been huge.

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And now I would say I'm just leaning into all of the strengths, you know, and also
forgiving myself for many of the challenges I go up against as a disabled leader.

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And thankfully, luckily for me, I'm surrounded by a team who we just, we fill each other's
gaps, you know, and it feels.

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like a pretty honest way, like an honest approach with regards to how to do that.

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My team know where my strengths are and they definitely know what moments I'm like, I'm
out.

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I'm not in on this conversation, please.

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I could add no value, you know, so it's just, it feels good.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's beautiful.

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I want to come back to unmasking in a little minute.

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It's interesting because I was similar when I had, I think we must have received a
diagnosis around the same time.

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And similarly, it took a year for me to integrate it through the lens of wanting to share
the journey, knowing it would be really helpful, but also wanting to honour my own process

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and journey of doing that double click on some moments.

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And I'm still doing that, to be honest, every day.

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It's almost like a rebirthing of going, there's a new lens at which I'm looking at the
world through.

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And I wanted to quickly ask you, I'm going to go a little bit off script for a minute,
because I know that you've got a very neuro inclusive workforce.

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That's something that you pride yourself on and that I really admire and that many of your
team are coming into their own identity as well at the same time.

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What's it like as a leader going through that identity journey yourself and the modeling
it takes to be able to be authentic and

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I love that analogy of taking the bra off, but to be authentic and also hold boundaries.

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Like what's that dance like with young people, many in your team are a bit younger, coming
into their journey.

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Are there explicit conversations?

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Is it kind of, see you, tell me more, tell me more.

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Yeah, sure.

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Look, really honestly, because I've gone through the diagnosis process myself, it's up to
them.

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Like they can share if they want to.

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They can leave it out if they prefer not to.

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It's completely up to them.

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In terms of boundaries, that is something I've especially had to get better and better at
because sometimes you can make a workplace so psychologically safe that it becomes unsafe.

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moments where it's just a little bit of, hey, that's not fair, you know, those kind of
moments.

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I think in terms of boundaries, that's sort of what springs to my mind first.

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It's like, you know, I'm really proud and I'm forever going to commit to cultivating a
psychologically safe workplace, but I am as I'm doing this and moving my way through it

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more and more, I'm recognizing boundaries are necessary.

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Hmm.

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sometimes with safety comes some sometimes unfair moments.

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It's sort of like, I think about, you know, with my own children, I think I must have
been, and my husband is excellent, but for whatever reason, I was the safe person while my

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kids were growing up.

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And so I would see sometimes, you know, they're absolutely like just those super
dysregulated, like launch into mum kind of moments.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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to infantilize a workforce here, but I would say if, if there's any way to compare,
sometimes I do cop that mom sort of safe thing as well at TDP where it's just like, hang

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on a minute.

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I know for a fact, if you were out there in a billion dollar, big Australian company
elsewhere, there's just no way you would, you would do this, you know?

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So I have to have those little moments with myself and just, become like a bit of a
boundaries queen.

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to be really honest and recognise that sometimes the penalisation, I guess, for super
psychologically safe approaches to work is that sometimes, yeah, we've just got to sort of

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go, hang on, this is still a workplace, you know, and so on.

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so, yeah, I've just, I've learnt to ask for what I need from my workforce.

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And they know that they feel so safe with me in terms of...

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as much as I know about and if I don't talk to me I'll do I'll do better you know and yeah
just sort of ask for like some non-negotiables for myself as well in return.

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I love that inclusion of this, the fierce self-compassion.

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It's funny, this morning I went down to get a coffee and I was listening to something that
you shared on social media about the 10th anniversary of TDP and your founder reflections.

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And you were speaking to this idea of the transition from being nice to being kind.

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So I'll share a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to listen to it, but that's
just sort of singing true in my mind right now.

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And that kindness actually incorporates boundaries and it incorporates boundaries for
self.

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and incorporates boundaries for your team to learn as well.

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And for our listeners kind of to riff on this a little bit more, I think what I love about
what you're sharing there Cherie is also that we're moving into a period of time where

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there is a shift in leadership expectations between generations in particular.

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So where that expectation I think on the leadership gap that was there when we were kids
going into the workforce and I say kids, but you young adults, that our leaders should

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somehow be really distant remote.

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This next generation doesn't want that.

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They want authenticity, they want vulnerability, they want to show up as their whole
selves.

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And we as leaders are wanting to do the same.

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And so this is a dance with curiosity and compassion and kindness to self and others to be
able to hold space for those hard conversations.

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So I really love the iterative approach that you're taking there.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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Yeah.

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Let's go back to masking for a minute, because that's really top of mind, especially for
the women that I speak to.

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I want to know a little bit more about your unmasking journey.

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And if you've done any reflections on the difference between for you, what masking feels
like versus say a really healthy compensation strategy, because

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I heard you speak just before to the truth as much as we can focus on and it's important
to focus on our neurodivergent strengths.

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There are genuine struggles that can show up as disability, particularly in a world not
built for our brains.

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And compensation

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strategies, healthy ones, are a really great way to navigate that.

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So tell me a little bit for you the difference between masking, compensation, and what
you're learning.

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Yeah, and look, you know what?

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I'm still on this journey.

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I don't know that I've completely unmasked at work.

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And I will just also say, I'm not also convinced that Australian workforces, or globally,
but I'm here in Australia, you know, are they completely ready?

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I'm just, I'm not completely sure.

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That's the truth, you know, because I've witnessed heavily unmasked autistic women.

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Mm-hmm.

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through professional worlds and wow, what they go up against just in order to unmask like
that.

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I'm not actually completely sure that I'm ready.

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There are so many parts of my role that still require a mask.

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A big one is workshop facilitation.

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And I look after myself really well after that.

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I know what to do there.

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And the second one is people management.

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to be really honest, like I do it in the most true to my autistic, you know, culture and
identity kind of way, but there's still a mask on because it's people management, you

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know?

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and I remember when, you know, I sort of was going through the diagnosis process, as an
autistic woman and she did invite me to circle back to have some conversations around PDA,

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but she said, let's just get you to digest this and then I'll see you in 12 months.

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and I want to talk to you about a potential PDA profile for you.

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And so we did circle back and once she did sort of, it wasn't formal, there was no piece
of paper with the PDA recognition, but I know I am an autistic woman with a PDA profile.

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And she said, how do you think this is going to change much for you?

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And I thought, well, where does one start?

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I'm going to have to unmask so hard to honor my nervous system.

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And then I said, and I cried when I shared this with her, said, I think for me, sadly,
this means that people management has an expiry date for me because it is an every day,

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not even wake every day set of demands that my nervous system can't do full time forever.

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know?

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very, that was, that was a huge kind of, yeah, realization.

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So I guess in terms of unmasking versus like say compensation pieces and so on, for me, I
do just honestly come back to the spoon theory.

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If I am putting on the mask, I do just recognise, well, how many spoons is that stealing
from me in this moment?

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And what can I do to replace?

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I just don't know if I can pretend that I'm going to at any point, maybe, I'm not sure,
you know, be able to complete.

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take the mask off.

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There are moments that it feels really safe for me to put a mask on, to be really honest,
you know.

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And so what I do instead is just come back to the spoon theory and think, all right, this
is going to take about four spoons.

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So what, how many times do I need to watch Moana when I get home tonight from work or
something like that to just get the spoon?

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And so it's just, you know, it's

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The compensation thing is just really leaning into that self-care piece of, I stole some
spoons from my autistic spirit today, how can I get them back?

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And if it's not today, what does this weekend look like and so on.

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If it's been a hard conversation, maybe it's a performance related thing at work that
really steals almost every spoon I have to be really honest with you.

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I'm internally destroyed, to be really honest.

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So I really have to go hard on that.

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compensation type, you know, replacing of spoons on the other side of that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, thank you.

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I've got Moana wrapping around in my head right now, so just, I'm just gonna have a
moment, speaking of unmasking.

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it.

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Yeah, I love that description because I think there's almost been a pressure and an
expectation in the neurodivergent population, at least what I've seen in doing some of the

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executive leadership coaching work that I do in our community of, okay, well now there's
almost like a performance of unmasking.

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And so now how do I radically show up in my full neurodivergent personality?

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And that's not safe.

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We know from the research, I think it was 2023 Nancy Doyle's paper, I'll put it in the
show notes that,

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64 % of people in the corporate workforce don't disclose.

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And that's because of real lived experience of stigma, of associated workplace bullying
that comes, of real life consequences of losing jobs, having conversations that are

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misplaced.

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So I love your double click on the mask, being protective and safe at times.

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For listeners who are, just to stay with this for a second, listeners who are unfamiliar
with the idea of masking or maybe don't have an experience of that, what might a behavior

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that they see if you are masking, what's that difference?

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So

196
00:18:08,785 --> 00:18:09,785
absolutely.

197
00:18:09,785 --> 00:18:19,502
It's pretty much putting, for me, my understanding of masking is it's sort of sometimes
pretending to be something you're not.

198
00:18:19,502 --> 00:18:22,374
It's saying yes when you prefer to say no.

199
00:18:22,374 --> 00:18:23,585
It's people please.

200
00:18:23,585 --> 00:18:28,308
It's a foreign response to, you know, particular pieces.

201
00:18:28,828 --> 00:18:30,407
You know, it's...

202
00:18:30,545 --> 00:18:35,665
probably reading the room and recognizing you're not safe to be neurodivergent self.

203
00:18:35,665 --> 00:18:40,825
So there might be some social situations I'm in where I'm like, they wouldn't be ready for
this jelly.

204
00:18:40,825 --> 00:18:42,145
You know what I mean?

205
00:18:43,585 --> 00:18:44,625
Yeah.

206
00:18:44,625 --> 00:18:53,625
And then there are other social situations where I can recognize really immediately, I'm
really safe here and I can unmask heavily.

207
00:18:55,025 --> 00:18:57,205
It's really different.

208
00:18:57,265 --> 00:19:00,187
I suppose for me masking up,

209
00:19:00,187 --> 00:19:14,906
there would be workplace conversations that if I were to have them unmasked, sometimes I
even think people would probably want to go down, like sometimes I worry, like would it,

210
00:19:14,906 --> 00:19:24,893
would I be flagged as, is it harassment or something when I'm just giving direct literal
feedback in the way that my autistic brain would go in first draft mode.

211
00:19:24,893 --> 00:19:25,713
Now,

212
00:19:25,873 --> 00:19:28,625
I don't know that many workplaces are ready for my first draft.

213
00:19:28,625 --> 00:19:29,406
That's the truth.

214
00:19:29,406 --> 00:19:32,658
And so that's the mask that I'll forever wear, honestly.

215
00:19:32,918 --> 00:19:37,121
And so what I'm doing instead is I'm not just putting a mask on.

216
00:19:37,121 --> 00:19:38,122
It's back in COVID.

217
00:19:38,122 --> 00:19:40,274
It's like a hazmat suit or something.

218
00:19:40,274 --> 00:19:42,625
You know what I mean?

219
00:19:42,625 --> 00:19:48,129
Yeah, honestly, I don't know that people would be ready for a first draft from me.

220
00:19:48,350 --> 00:19:53,133
I'd have to be in a workplace with people who are

221
00:19:53,989 --> 00:20:05,985
exactly even my brand of autism, you know, like just, yeah, direct, to the point, no
fluffing around, you know, and, and if I found those people, we're really kind, we're

222
00:20:05,985 --> 00:20:06,796
really kind people.

223
00:20:06,796 --> 00:20:14,329
And it is kind, we want to be kind in terms of the kindest thing we think we can do is be
honest, but not many people are ready for that.

224
00:20:14,329 --> 00:20:17,081
So yeah, masking.

225
00:20:17,481 --> 00:20:23,354
It's all of the things I described, but I do just want to add it's a recipe for

226
00:20:23,354 --> 00:20:32,550
potential burnout, you know, because you're pretending to be something that you're not too
much and it's almost a full-time gig, you know, and so on.

227
00:20:33,031 --> 00:20:36,083
Brace yourself for the inevitable burnout.

228
00:20:36,083 --> 00:20:39,736
And so I'm just really grateful that I get to come home.

229
00:20:39,736 --> 00:20:46,201
I open the door and I know my husband is ready for my fully unmasked version of me.

230
00:20:46,609 --> 00:20:50,169
I don't want to say that I'm lucky because there's no way.

231
00:20:50,169 --> 00:20:54,069
That's what I deserve, you know, and that's what he deserves as well.

232
00:20:54,109 --> 00:21:05,649
Like, have this beautiful little agreement, you know, and I just, I'm so glad that I
don't, I don't know the last time I had to mask up in my marriage, you know, so that feels

233
00:21:05,649 --> 00:21:14,931
good that no matter what happens in work, land and whatever, I can come home and be my
first draft self, you know, so yeah.

234
00:21:15,293 --> 00:21:16,614
Yeah, I can relate to that.

235
00:21:16,614 --> 00:21:20,496
Having a safe home is a real beauty and a gift.

236
00:21:20,496 --> 00:21:22,597
And I think it also takes work.

237
00:21:22,597 --> 00:21:24,938
It takes really vulnerable, honest conversations.

238
00:21:24,938 --> 00:21:29,580
So I imagine that's also happening in your home, and I want to acknowledge and celebrate
that too.

239
00:21:29,580 --> 00:21:32,301
Shout out to your hubby, by the way, if he's listening in.

240
00:21:33,903 --> 00:21:35,033
It's a lot of work.

241
00:21:35,033 --> 00:21:38,305
Well, neurodiversion families are a lot of work.

242
00:21:39,075 --> 00:21:41,957
Yeah, and that's, we can have a conversation about that another day.

243
00:21:41,957 --> 00:21:48,612
Yeah, want to come back, speaking when you're a divergent family, so I want to come back
to PDA if we could.

244
00:21:49,954 --> 00:21:53,496
It's interesting that you say you didn't get a formalized piece of paper around that.

245
00:21:53,496 --> 00:22:00,182
I'm actually really impressed that the therapist that you saw or the professional that you
saw for diagnosis knew to circle back on it.

246
00:22:00,182 --> 00:22:04,369
It's quite new in Australia in terms of an adoption and is still

247
00:22:04,369 --> 00:22:14,497
Unfortunately, in my experience from a clinical psychology perspective, spoken to as this
kind of a little bit like rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is known in our

248
00:22:14,497 --> 00:22:26,145
community, but not really accepted because it doesn't sit in the DSM-5, which is the kind
of outdated diagnostic pathological model of neurodivergence.

249
00:22:26,225 --> 00:22:31,649
so PDA for our listeners is technically known as pathological.

250
00:22:31,975 --> 00:22:35,088
I say, don't even use the term enough because it's just so bad.

251
00:22:35,088 --> 00:22:37,690
Pathological demand avoidance, right?

252
00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:44,265
So in our family, we've got two PDA kids, which I only came to know about because of Casey
Elrich's work, who is beautiful.

253
00:22:44,265 --> 00:22:52,082
And I'll drop a link in her, for her in the, in the show notes, but, but we say pervasive
desire for autonomy.

254
00:22:52,082 --> 00:23:01,213
Cause that's how we've come to read it and understand it that anytime our kiddos have a,
particularly if they're stressed and they've been through periods of autistic burnout, but

255
00:23:01,213 --> 00:23:06,593
anytime that there is a perceived demand or a threat to their sense of being in control.

256
00:23:06,593 --> 00:23:15,973
And when they're unwell, that can be as simple as if I directly ask them to pick their
clothes off the floor in that moment, in that time.

257
00:23:15,973 --> 00:23:21,713
That can result in a really big meltdown when they're not well versus then, you know, it's
like on a continuum.

258
00:23:21,713 --> 00:23:30,953
But I wanted to ask your experience and expression of PDA as an adult woman and coming to
understand it,

259
00:23:31,709 --> 00:23:37,675
through a more holistic lens rather than necessarily that disabling pathologizing.

260
00:23:37,675 --> 00:23:41,839
This is a very extreme example of autism.

261
00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:44,821
What's PDA like for you and what would you like to share about it?

262
00:23:45,166 --> 00:23:58,185
yeah, what a beautiful introduction to this conversation because yeah, I'm like you, I
don't pathologize the PDA experience and it is heavily pathologized, you know, and when I

263
00:23:58,185 --> 00:24:09,182
read up about it in a really with that really highly pathologized lens, it almost sounds
like CPTSD or you know, just I've even seen like, is it is it an avoidant an attachment

264
00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:12,963
style or is it like it's just and all of these

265
00:24:12,963 --> 00:24:14,807
disorder is another one that comes to mind.

266
00:24:14,807 --> 00:24:15,913
Yeah, yeah.

267
00:24:15,913 --> 00:24:21,917
that comes up and I'm like, it's just a completely different nervous system, to be really
honest.

268
00:24:21,917 --> 00:24:29,195
And it's again, even a different type of culture and identity within that neurodivergent
sort of umbrella and so on.

269
00:24:29,195 --> 00:24:41,545
So we move different, you know, and I sort of, think if I could share this, like I think
about my husband and a PDA woman is

270
00:24:41,603 --> 00:24:46,474
the kind of woman you've literally never dated before in your entire life.

271
00:24:46,614 --> 00:24:54,527
And I just, I am so glad that I married someone who's just this absolute icon.

272
00:24:54,527 --> 00:25:06,310
He's just this hilarious ADHD man and he loves this PDA woman, you know, but I know that I
fascinate him and I destroy him.

273
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:08,733
Like I just, he's like, why?

274
00:25:08,733 --> 00:25:10,255
You know, there's just so much.

275
00:25:10,255 --> 00:25:10,716
toes.

276
00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:14,183
He's got like a permanent dopamine high, right?

277
00:25:15,228 --> 00:25:17,552
Maybe that's why my kids work for me.

278
00:25:17,664 --> 00:25:24,269
I am like the permanent dopamine source to this man because he's just never aware of what
I'll do next.

279
00:25:24,269 --> 00:25:27,161
You know, I think I can use words.

280
00:25:27,161 --> 00:25:27,982
I'm interesting.

281
00:25:27,982 --> 00:25:28,792
I'm fascinating.

282
00:25:28,792 --> 00:25:30,293
I'm exhausting.

283
00:25:30,293 --> 00:25:31,514
I'm hilarious.

284
00:25:31,514 --> 00:25:39,069
You know, and he we, you know, met really young, but we did have a year long break.

285
00:25:39,069 --> 00:25:44,374
And I remember when we found our way back to each other, he said, there are no other women
like you.

286
00:25:44,374 --> 00:25:49,086
you are the most interesting person I've ever met and I don't not want this.

287
00:25:49,086 --> 00:26:02,972
Like I, I want you, you know, and so I just, think that I'm, you know, we PDA women, we're
really interesting, you know, and there are hilarious moments.

288
00:26:02,972 --> 00:26:10,896
You said before, like the request to pick up clothes from say the floor for me, it's just,
yes, that hyper need to control.

289
00:26:10,896 --> 00:26:11,646
I, I

290
00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:17,092
be devastated if anyone described me as a control freak, because it's just honestly not
true.

291
00:26:17,133 --> 00:26:30,099
You know, I'm really not, but I do just have this absolute, a hyper need to be fully
autonomous, you know, and how that shows up sometimes this is my PDA humor kicking in, but

292
00:26:30,099 --> 00:26:33,060
maybe your listeners will think, Cherie, this isn't funny.

293
00:26:33,161 --> 00:26:35,584
But I remember.

294
00:26:35,584 --> 00:26:39,927
way back when Dave and I were dating and I said, I really want to explore this particular
country.

295
00:26:39,927 --> 00:26:42,379
And he's like, I've got no desire to go there.

296
00:26:42,379 --> 00:26:45,661
And he's like, and I don't think you should either, you know?

297
00:26:45,661 --> 00:26:46,912
And so that was it.

298
00:26:46,912 --> 00:26:48,703
The demand was placed.

299
00:26:48,883 --> 00:26:51,084
My flight, I was on the next flight out.

300
00:26:54,707 --> 00:26:56,018
Barely even packed.

301
00:26:56,018 --> 00:26:58,926
Didn't even pack appropriately, honestly.

302
00:26:58,926 --> 00:27:00,771
That is brilliant.

303
00:27:00,771 --> 00:27:02,920
I reckon you would have rowed a boat there quite frankly.

304
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,023
I would have swam the English channel equivalent honestly.

305
00:27:09,265 --> 00:27:14,348
If you ever want something done, probably hack the PDA brain.

306
00:27:16,291 --> 00:27:21,034
I was out there and look, dude, was he in some parts right?

307
00:27:21,034 --> 00:27:26,529
Well, I was aggressively mugged, which is exactly what he said.

308
00:27:26,529 --> 00:27:29,801
I landed, I was mugged within an hour.

309
00:27:31,715 --> 00:27:40,000
and you know, it's just, it's, that piece where I, and then of course, because that
happened, I couldn't possibly call him to tell him what had happened.

310
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,702
You know, I was like, no, no, he doesn't need to know.

311
00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:45,184
I've got no ability to tell him what's just happened.

312
00:27:45,184 --> 00:27:46,034
I'll be fine.

313
00:27:46,034 --> 00:27:48,406
You know, we're, brilliant.

314
00:27:48,406 --> 00:27:49,787
We're just, we're interesting.

315
00:27:49,787 --> 00:27:51,027
We're fun.

316
00:27:51,368 --> 00:27:52,339
we're rebellious.

317
00:27:52,339 --> 00:27:53,470
We're hilarious.

318
00:27:53,470 --> 00:27:56,131
You know, we're built differently.

319
00:27:56,131 --> 00:28:00,354
And then, so outside of dating, I just do want to say one more thing.

320
00:28:01,314 --> 00:28:10,238
if you ever work for a PDA manager, just like the woman that you've never dated before,
we're the manager you've never worked for before.

321
00:28:10,238 --> 00:28:12,980
We lead in a way you've never been led before.

322
00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:14,820
And it's really interesting.

323
00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:15,901
It's disruptive.

324
00:28:15,901 --> 00:28:17,182
It's rebellious.

325
00:28:17,182 --> 00:28:27,480
It's safe because, if you ever want to remove unnecessary demands, just go and find
yourself a PDA leader, you know, and we'll just say,

326
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,101
this sounds like a really unnecessary demand.

327
00:28:30,101 --> 00:28:38,635
And so I've learned that my removal of demands that suit my, you know, my nervous system
have actually been really good for my workplace.

328
00:28:38,635 --> 00:28:43,582
that's these days when I'm thinking about people describe me as being X, Y, O, Z.

329
00:28:43,582 --> 00:28:48,079
I'm like, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm just selfishly removing demands for
myself.

330
00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:50,340
And apparently this is benefiting a workplace.

331
00:28:50,340 --> 00:28:51,240
Yeah.

332
00:28:55,098 --> 00:28:57,198
I love so much of all of this.

333
00:28:57,198 --> 00:28:58,338
Thank you for sharing.

334
00:28:58,338 --> 00:29:00,278
And I've literally got tears.

335
00:29:00,278 --> 00:29:02,548
If you're not watching this on YouTube, please do.

336
00:29:02,548 --> 00:29:03,959
I'm wiping back tears

337
00:29:03,959 --> 00:29:10,357
literally so predictable i'm telling you i and it's most hilarious isn't it the most
hilarious

338
00:29:10,357 --> 00:29:18,397
It's just so many hilarious moments where I just think how lucky we are to be rolling with
the PDAs.

339
00:29:18,397 --> 00:29:20,157
Life is interesting.

340
00:29:20,157 --> 00:29:20,896
Yeah.

341
00:29:20,896 --> 00:29:22,337
And they are going to change the world.

342
00:29:22,337 --> 00:29:23,148
I agree with you.

343
00:29:23,148 --> 00:29:23,570
Okay.

344
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:25,089
We're going to have to riff on this offline.

345
00:29:25,089 --> 00:29:28,362
That's hilarious.

346
00:29:28,362 --> 00:29:30,483
Speaking of changing the world.

347
00:29:30,724 --> 00:29:40,110
I know so many people tuning into this episode will be desperately wanting to hear about
your neuro inclusion and your leadership journey, your workplace culture at TDP.

348
00:29:40,291 --> 00:29:43,133
And I'm so glad that we've, we've got to this point with

349
00:29:43,133 --> 00:29:51,536
with the context around disruption and that's actually really good for your nervous system
and therefore as a consequence, good for everybody else as well.

350
00:29:51,536 --> 00:30:01,900
But could you share a little bit about what radical inclusion looks like for you in not
just your workplace, but also as you're moving around other workplaces and thinking about

351
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:05,251
a more inclusive future of work, what's showing up at the moment?

352
00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:12,543
really, honestly, it just feels so simple to share.

353
00:30:12,543 --> 00:30:23,149
But, you know, I understand that I've got the benefit of now what we've discussed, like a,
you know, a PDA profile, PDA autistic woman, I really think workplaces in the future, and

354
00:30:23,149 --> 00:30:33,681
especially when we talked about hiring different generations, where to going to get
across, not just psychological safety isn't enough anymore, it's about

355
00:30:33,681 --> 00:30:42,508
pairing that back with really well nervous systems at work in order to get the best out of
people.

356
00:30:42,849 --> 00:30:52,737
And so I think leaders, whether you want to understand PDA or not, designing workplaces
that are good for nervous systems benefits all.

357
00:30:52,737 --> 00:30:58,501
So wherever you can look at situations and think, does this feel like a really unnecessary
demand?

358
00:30:58,501 --> 00:31:03,141
I would be doubling down on, well, then does it need to be there?

359
00:31:03,141 --> 00:31:14,959
You know, so, me, my big 2025 focus is, extending on our psychological safety, which I do
think we're pulling off pretty well, honestly.

360
00:31:14,959 --> 00:31:17,891
And for me, that's just not enough, you know?

361
00:31:18,326 --> 00:31:30,810
I want to like move into a more sort of enhanced, sort of state there and really start to
honor nervous systems and how we, as an entire team and, know, so therefore like workplace

362
00:31:30,810 --> 00:31:32,201
can look after.

363
00:31:32,441 --> 00:31:33,381
nervous systems.

364
00:31:33,381 --> 00:31:41,925
And then I hope we share more of these stories that will influence people who have
probably got much better resources to be able to do the same.

365
00:31:41,925 --> 00:31:52,249
You know, but I just think there's a lot of unnecessary stuff that happens in workplaces
everywhere where I think, did that really need to go like that?

366
00:31:52,249 --> 00:31:56,381
You know, and I've got big examples, and then I've got just simple ones.

367
00:31:56,381 --> 00:32:01,064
I remember, I think it was even this year, actually, maybe earlier on this year,

368
00:32:01,064 --> 00:32:03,396
It was just one of our work days in the office.

369
00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:05,027
have six per month.

370
00:32:05,028 --> 00:32:07,849
On this particular day, there were two people.

371
00:32:07,870 --> 00:32:10,753
One was COVID positive without realizing it.

372
00:32:10,753 --> 00:32:13,195
The second person I know, yep.

373
00:32:13,195 --> 00:32:19,500
The second person was had saved for a really long time to go to Japan.

374
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,952
So they were one week out from their holiday.

375
00:32:21,952 --> 00:32:23,534
So right, look at your face.

376
00:32:23,534 --> 00:32:25,485
I just want to hug you.

377
00:32:25,646 --> 00:32:26,647
The empathy, right?

378
00:32:26,647 --> 00:32:28,422
know, so.

379
00:32:28,422 --> 00:32:30,414
Your face was my response.

380
00:32:30,414 --> 00:32:35,758
I walked in, I had been late to work, maybe by half an hour, just got caught in some
traffic.

381
00:32:35,758 --> 00:32:40,842
And as soon as I walked in, I felt like, I don't know, Keanu Reeves from The Matrix.

382
00:32:40,842 --> 00:32:42,193
just got hit back.

383
00:32:42,193 --> 00:32:46,586
was hit by this, something's wrong here, you know?

384
00:32:47,147 --> 00:32:57,636
And sort of quickly figured out that the person heading off on that overseas trip was
devastated because they were pretty sure they were probably, you know, going to end up,

385
00:32:57,636 --> 00:32:58,436
yep.

386
00:32:58,443 --> 00:32:59,334
Yeah.

387
00:32:59,788 --> 00:33:03,760
And then of course, the other person who'd since gone home was devastated.

388
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,990
Devastated.

389
00:33:06,510 --> 00:33:08,671
No, no way.

390
00:33:08,691 --> 00:33:14,132
And so I said to the person heading overseas, please go home right now.

391
00:33:14,433 --> 00:33:16,333
Spend the rest of this week home.

392
00:33:16,333 --> 00:33:19,854
Keep yourself safe in the lead up to your international trip.

393
00:33:19,854 --> 00:33:25,676
And then I brought in the leadership team and I just said, Hey, we need to never let this
happen again.

394
00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:27,344
Like we need to

395
00:33:27,344 --> 00:33:35,470
roll out a quick and easy policy that allows our team in the week prior to international
travel, I want them to be able to work from home for the full week.

396
00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:44,476
that, you know, that they feel, I mean, just from a nervous system perspective, they feel
good that their holiday is going to actually happen.

397
00:33:44,476 --> 00:33:56,070
And look, selfishly, I actually don't want to cop the resentment, the associated
resentment off the back of someone missing out on an opportunity like that.

398
00:33:56,070 --> 00:34:04,176
because of me deciding that yes, you still need to be at work in the week before your long
planned for long saved up for holiday.

399
00:34:04,176 --> 00:34:05,354
It's just unnecessary.

400
00:34:05,354 --> 00:34:09,146
Now that's just one example, but I brought that to life in 20 minutes.

401
00:34:09,146 --> 00:34:20,861
The policy was written up on the same day, launched the next, the team were just, it was
like that old El Paso ad like, you know, just like, like, that's how easy it is to look

402
00:34:20,861 --> 00:34:21,611
after people.

403
00:34:21,611 --> 00:34:22,248
I,

404
00:34:22,248 --> 00:34:29,788
promise, especially younger generations, that's the stuff they respect more than a yearly,
sometimes big salary increase.

405
00:34:29,788 --> 00:34:40,088
Or if you can do a series of things like that all year round, are really appreciated and
they will stick around.

406
00:34:40,088 --> 00:34:46,978
We have retention rates double our industry standard because of micro moments like that
one.

407
00:34:46,978 --> 00:34:48,102
So it's just...

408
00:34:48,102 --> 00:34:50,644
look after the nervous systems.

409
00:34:50,644 --> 00:34:59,659
My next big nervous system goal is how can I tackle working parents of school-aged
children when they get four weeks of annual leave per year and three months of school

410
00:34:59,659 --> 00:35:05,763
holidays to navigate the math through math and the nervous system is completely destroyed
off the back of that.

411
00:35:05,763 --> 00:35:08,318
So that's my next big goal for 2025.

412
00:35:09,236 --> 00:35:12,096
can't wait to double click with you on that one.

413
00:35:12,096 --> 00:35:17,078
And I also want to just come back to that for people listening in.

414
00:35:17,456 --> 00:35:20,109
And Sri, I know this is a framework that you use as well.

415
00:35:20,109 --> 00:35:24,920
It's that circles of concern of what's in my control, what's out of my control, what's in
my influence.

416
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,761
And I think about that moment and how a leader might respond.

417
00:35:27,761 --> 00:35:35,343
And I think the typical response might have been to go towards in terms of policies and
procedures and protocols, how do we make sure that we keep this workplace, Seth?

418
00:35:35,343 --> 00:35:38,184
We need to test everybody before they come into the room.

419
00:35:38,930 --> 00:35:46,874
And I love that you went straight to the person in the center, you from that human
centered design piece of who is it that we really want to be looking after?

420
00:35:46,874 --> 00:35:54,649
And it's that employee that was, that was going away and what, like, what a seemingly
simple intervention when you break it down into when you put the person who matters in the

421
00:35:54,649 --> 00:35:55,389
center.

422
00:35:55,389 --> 00:36:01,513
So thank you for sharing, because to me, that's such a, such a powerful example of
mattering at work.

423
00:36:01,513 --> 00:36:05,255
And I think that we can take into our communities and schools as well.

424
00:36:05,255 --> 00:36:07,208
It's, it's coming back to the.

425
00:36:07,208 --> 00:36:09,689
that compassion piece, so thank you.

426
00:36:11,811 --> 00:36:14,175
gosh, I can't believe how quickly time has gone.

427
00:36:14,175 --> 00:36:16,734
I could sit and talk to you for hours, but I won't.

428
00:36:16,948 --> 00:36:25,599
I do wanna quickly, before we go to our rapid five questions, ask you though about
creativity and flow, because it's been an area that I've been diving into.

429
00:36:25,868 --> 00:36:31,413
And I'm really curious about creative processes, and particularly in our neurodiversion
community.

430
00:36:31,413 --> 00:36:32,980
And I'm wondering if you've...

431
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:35,242
because I know you're a big pattern spotter, that's one of your strengths.

432
00:36:35,242 --> 00:36:44,441
If you've spotted any patterns within yourself and or within your team or the people that
you come across who are highly creative in terms of that process, what are you noticing

433
00:36:44,441 --> 00:36:46,032
that would be helpful to share?

434
00:36:46,362 --> 00:36:50,394
Yeah, I'm noticing a lot because of that pattern recognition.

435
00:36:52,212 --> 00:36:56,759
Yeah, honestly, I couldn't not because I'm heading up a creative agency, you know what I
mean?

436
00:36:56,759 --> 00:37:02,053
Like, and, it's strategy and it's creativity and we're all meant to be coming together on
this.

437
00:37:02,053 --> 00:37:09,588
And so I these days, just like to be honest about it all and say it doesn't, all of it
doesn't sit with one person.

438
00:37:09,588 --> 00:37:11,579
We're meant to come together instead.

439
00:37:11,579 --> 00:37:15,514
And sort of really almost, almost

440
00:37:15,514 --> 00:37:18,965
not arrogantly, but just say, this is what I'm really good at.

441
00:37:19,286 --> 00:37:29,251
How can I partner up with you because you're really good at this so that it becomes sort
of, you know, this thing that we are collaboratively really proud of.

442
00:37:29,251 --> 00:37:32,402
And so I see this in action every single week.

443
00:37:32,402 --> 00:37:33,843
It's as recent as yesterday.

444
00:37:33,843 --> 00:37:38,275
So I'm after speaking with you, I'm presenting a lunch and learn masterclass today.

445
00:37:38,275 --> 00:37:39,996
And I just

446
00:37:40,006 --> 00:37:44,958
got sick of making it digital, you know, because it's not how my autistic brain thinks.

447
00:37:44,958 --> 00:37:54,541
I wanted to draw the masterclass because I had it so clear in my mind and I knew if I
typed it into a Google doc or something like that, it just wouldn't do justice to what I

448
00:37:54,541 --> 00:37:55,761
was envisioning.

449
00:37:55,761 --> 00:38:05,448
And so I actually drew it, you know, it started pen, paper, I was visualizing this
emergency department that people were going to walk into to have their

450
00:38:05,448 --> 00:38:10,968
low engagement diagnosed and then we were going to, you know, walk them through the ED
department.

451
00:38:11,108 --> 00:38:18,238
And so I drew it all up and then I presented it to the most incredible senior content
specialist.

452
00:38:18,238 --> 00:38:19,568
His name is Dane.

453
00:38:19,568 --> 00:38:24,508
He's a powerhouse dyslexic content specialist within our workplace.

454
00:38:24,508 --> 00:38:31,248
And I knew for a fact that I could go and present these drawings slash scramblings and so
on.

455
00:38:31,248 --> 00:38:34,364
And he got it in a 15 minute handover.

456
00:38:34,364 --> 00:38:42,126
that's two really strong strengths coming together, recognizing what I bring versus what
he can turn it into.

457
00:38:42,584 --> 00:38:48,508
And at 12 o'clock today, I get to, you know, bring it all together.

458
00:38:48,508 --> 00:38:51,249
And I'm actually so high.

459
00:38:51,249 --> 00:38:55,910
I can't wait for 12 o'clock to present, you know, in a really different way.

460
00:38:56,630 --> 00:39:01,131
Some really great teachings to people that will help their strategies in an hour.

461
00:39:01,131 --> 00:39:03,218
And it was just so wonderful to see it all.

462
00:39:03,218 --> 00:39:06,871
you know, come together in a way that felt better for both of us, you know?

463
00:39:06,871 --> 00:39:17,838
So, yeah, I just, I just really would recommend, probably getting together as teams and
recognizing I've got strengths in these places and almost putting it into a bit of a

464
00:39:17,838 --> 00:39:24,002
guide, you know, when you need this, you should partner up with dot dot dot, you know, and
so on.

465
00:39:24,523 --> 00:39:31,748
I want to see more of that normalized, you know, I, a couple of weeks ago, sat in an
exploration call with a client.

466
00:39:31,896 --> 00:39:36,269
And my processing speed just wasn't keeping up with what they were after.

467
00:39:36,269 --> 00:39:37,609
I'll be really honest with you.

468
00:39:37,609 --> 00:39:40,361
And I felt disabled in that moment.

469
00:39:40,361 --> 00:39:42,122
My heart was pounding in this meeting.

470
00:39:42,122 --> 00:39:46,485
just thought, I'm just not quick enough here.

471
00:39:46,485 --> 00:39:48,145
I'm not understanding what you're saying.

472
00:39:48,145 --> 00:39:51,768
It's coming to me kind of a little bit after.

473
00:39:51,768 --> 00:39:53,696
Yeah, it was really delayed.

474
00:39:53,696 --> 00:39:57,691
It was still in the meeting, but it was probably too delayed for them.

475
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,490
Now that wasn't a problem.

476
00:39:59,490 --> 00:40:01,280
They didn't know that they didn't feel it.

477
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,100
And do you want to know why?

478
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,020
No, a bit of that.

479
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:08,220
Okay.

480
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:20,500
I'll tell you, I brought in a bonus mask and that was another, like a team member of mine
who has strengths in the spaces that I have deficits in.

481
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:24,620
So she was immediately picking up what they were asking for.

482
00:40:24,620 --> 00:40:26,208
Speaking to that.

483
00:40:26,412 --> 00:40:29,735
while she was speaking, my processing speed was catching up.

484
00:40:29,735 --> 00:40:36,672
And then I was coming in with my big picture understanding of what they were actually
after.

485
00:40:36,672 --> 00:40:42,403
So I was going in with this radical empathy type piece that she said she benefited from.

486
00:40:42,672 --> 00:40:49,658
And it was like, actually walked out of that meeting with happy tears, you know, because I
just thought,

487
00:40:49,734 --> 00:40:51,225
I really love how that went.

488
00:40:51,225 --> 00:40:53,866
And I love that we both knew where our strengths were.

489
00:40:53,866 --> 00:40:59,890
We didn't even have to say to each other, do you want to take this one or it just happened
so beautifully.

490
00:40:59,890 --> 00:41:01,911
And I loved it.

491
00:41:01,911 --> 00:41:04,132
So that's what I want for workplaces in the future.

492
00:41:04,132 --> 00:41:13,007
don't want them to, I don't want anyone to have those heart pounding moments where you
think I'm not enough because I am, I just needed two to three minutes.

493
00:41:13,007 --> 00:41:18,566
And then she could do the immediate stuff that

494
00:41:18,566 --> 00:41:26,172
Her brain just graphs so quickly and then she needed me to come in with my, so what we're
saying is dot dot dot.

495
00:41:26,172 --> 00:41:31,896
And it was usually a pretty highly empathic response, a pretty good read of the room.

496
00:41:31,896 --> 00:41:33,847
I just needed two to three minutes.

497
00:41:33,848 --> 00:41:34,648
Yeah.

498
00:41:34,994 --> 00:41:36,355
Yeah, that's brilliant.

499
00:41:36,355 --> 00:41:38,466
I love it for so many reasons.

500
00:41:38,527 --> 00:41:41,309
One, because it touches on the concept of group flow.

501
00:41:41,309 --> 00:41:53,850
think there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of focus in creativity and innovation around
individual flow concepts, but the magic that happens with group flow when you pull people

502
00:41:53,850 --> 00:42:03,752
together and that space in between, that's really, magic is the only word that I can use,
chemistry magic, it's got an ethereal quality to it that's kind of hard to.

503
00:42:03,752 --> 00:42:05,794
but you can feel it when it's there.

504
00:42:05,794 --> 00:42:13,919
And the second reason I love what you're sharing and it's why I'm doing the work that I'm
doing in terms of executive coaching for neurodivergent professionals and helping people

505
00:42:13,919 --> 00:42:22,445
to understand that just like we've moved through an appreciation of why it might be
helpful to know your strengths, why it might be helpful to know your personality.

506
00:42:22,445 --> 00:42:29,490
It's so helpful to know your brain and your nervous system because then you can partner
with people that compliment you.

507
00:42:30,191 --> 00:42:32,232
So that's a brilliant example.

508
00:42:32,232 --> 00:42:33,313
Thank you, selfishly.

509
00:42:33,313 --> 00:42:39,036
get to really riff on that in my little geeky space when I'm doing my rabbit hole deep
dives.

510
00:42:40,016 --> 00:42:42,057
Yeah, thank you for sharing.

511
00:42:42,512 --> 00:42:43,648
It's super cool.

512
00:42:43,648 --> 00:42:45,179
All right, let's do the rapid fire.

513
00:42:45,179 --> 00:42:54,225
I've asked all of my guests across the four series, actually, these questions and I'm
collating to see where the commonalities and differences are.

514
00:42:54,225 --> 00:43:00,818
So it's just whatever comes to mind first and foremost, but the first one is what does it
mean to you if you think of somebody who's got

515
00:43:00,818 --> 00:43:02,424
and impact mindset.

516
00:43:02,424 --> 00:43:07,961
Impact mindset for me is anyone who focuses on transformation over transaction.

517
00:43:08,323 --> 00:43:11,447
Transaction just feels it's not impactful.

518
00:43:11,748 --> 00:43:15,324
But when you actually focus on transformation, that's where the impact is.

519
00:43:15,324 --> 00:43:17,355
I love that.

520
00:43:17,536 --> 00:43:18,697
Yes.

521
00:43:19,198 --> 00:43:27,715
I should say, I felt a bit cheeky asking you that question because you are such a leader
of impact and I'll share in the blog if anybody's watching and listening some links to

522
00:43:27,715 --> 00:43:36,253
other conversations I know you've had with people to share both the small and the mega
moments of change that you've crafted in your leadership journey.

523
00:43:36,253 --> 00:43:38,815
So I just want to acknowledge and appreciate you for that.

524
00:43:38,815 --> 00:43:40,296
That was a beautiful response.

525
00:43:40,296 --> 00:43:42,638
What about inclusive impact?

526
00:43:43,614 --> 00:43:48,858
I think for this one, takes rebels, you know, to be inclusive is to be rebellious.

527
00:43:48,858 --> 00:43:51,230
You've got to challenge the status quo.

528
00:43:51,230 --> 00:43:53,702
You've got to be a bit, you know, industry disruptive.

529
00:43:53,702 --> 00:43:58,195
And I guess like, you know, something that pairs up with that well is courage.

530
00:43:58,195 --> 00:43:59,467
You know, it's not easy.

531
00:43:59,467 --> 00:44:06,322
It's not actually, it's actually not easy to be inclusive in a world that's honestly
designed for the neuro majority, to be really honest.

532
00:44:06,322 --> 00:44:09,374
So it takes the rebels and the courageous folk, you know.

533
00:44:10,166 --> 00:44:12,059
Yeah, beautiful.

534
00:44:12,059 --> 00:44:21,468
If you were to imagine a future, and especially through that lens of being a parent as
well, a future where we do have a more inclusive world, communities, schools, workplaces,

535
00:44:21,569 --> 00:44:22,612
what do you see?

536
00:44:22,612 --> 00:44:23,602
What do you envisage?

537
00:44:23,602 --> 00:44:33,841
I really do think it's going to come back to designing places, settings and so on in a
more low demand way.

538
00:44:33,841 --> 00:44:37,591
You know, you can still achieve a lot in a low demand environment.

539
00:44:37,591 --> 00:44:48,379
had the best childhood in a completely low demand home by a solo parent, autistic PDA dad,
you know, so I've only grown up in a low demand environment.

540
00:44:48,379 --> 00:44:51,315
And if, if people need the

541
00:44:51,315 --> 00:44:58,465
whatever's like I got that near perfect T all the things that society wants people to get
that apparently means a lot to a lot of people.

542
00:44:58,465 --> 00:45:02,542
So I was never not benefiting from a low demand environment.

543
00:45:02,542 --> 00:45:11,768
And I'd love to see settings getting around this low demand, you know, design workplace
design, to be really honest, I think it's needed.

544
00:45:11,768 --> 00:45:15,321
Yeah, especially as the pace of the world just seems to be getting so much faster.

545
00:45:15,321 --> 00:45:16,842
I couldn't agree more.

546
00:45:16,983 --> 00:45:26,551
What about for those who are wanting to sort of dip and dive into neuro inclusion in
particular, are there some books, podcasts, other leaders, yours obviously, duh,

547
00:45:26,551 --> 00:45:32,196
everything that Cherie Clonin puts into the world, get amongst it, but who would you
recommend?

548
00:45:32,498 --> 00:45:34,123
Or what would you recommend?

549
00:45:34,123 --> 00:45:41,786
everyone, but I do, I mean, and now it's a little sad to say this, but it would be
NeuroTribes that had a really big impact on me as a book.

550
00:45:41,786 --> 00:45:48,038
You know, it just felt like I finally realized what cultural group I belong to, to be
really honest.

551
00:45:48,038 --> 00:45:48,985
And I felt really proud.

552
00:45:48,985 --> 00:45:53,230
It really was the book that kicked off my neurodivision pride.

553
00:45:53,471 --> 00:46:01,354
But to be really honest, to step outside of this door right now, there's a little library
just nearby and there are so many books within our library that are by

554
00:46:01,354 --> 00:46:10,454
incredible autistic authors, neurodivergent authors, ADHD, dyslexic, dyscalculic, know,
yeah, the list goes on.

555
00:46:10,971 --> 00:46:12,146
That lived experience, yeah.

556
00:46:12,146 --> 00:46:13,586
I'm also a big fan of neuro-tribes.

557
00:46:13,586 --> 00:46:14,187
was cool.

558
00:46:14,187 --> 00:46:15,229
Finding your neuro kin.

559
00:46:15,229 --> 00:46:17,644
It's a big part of the journey as well.

560
00:46:17,644 --> 00:46:23,145
And then the last one, it's a big one, is what does it mean for you to live a meaningful
life?

561
00:46:23,145 --> 00:46:27,636
I think the meaningful life for me comes down to legacy.

562
00:46:28,136 --> 00:46:31,477
That's something that my dad really drilled into me.

563
00:46:31,477 --> 00:46:35,168
it sounds for some people, think it sounds a bit sombre or something.

564
00:46:35,168 --> 00:46:40,140
It's not for me, but he always said, well, imagine what people would say at your eulogy.

565
00:46:40,140 --> 00:46:41,160
You know what I mean?

566
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:51,619
Or even if not standing up on the, I don't know, the little whatever people stand up on at
a funeral, would be just what are people going to say as your life sort of.

567
00:46:51,619 --> 00:46:59,577
you know, comes to an end and I'd really hope that for as many people as I've come across
that they've had a good interaction with me.

568
00:46:59,577 --> 00:47:03,852
So that meaningful life has to have a piece of legacy to it.

569
00:47:03,852 --> 00:47:15,163
And I think in terms of how I make it meaningful at TDP, is just truly that if money comes
into my hands, I have committed to doing good things with it, you know, so.

570
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:17,963
I'll do that for the rest of TDP's days.

571
00:47:17,963 --> 00:47:20,427
It means we won't be as profitable as other companies.

572
00:47:20,427 --> 00:47:21,329
couldn't care less.

573
00:47:21,329 --> 00:47:25,386
I need to do good things with the money that comes through my hands.

574
00:47:25,386 --> 00:47:26,416
love that.

575
00:47:26,717 --> 00:47:32,821
Your dad probably didn't even realize, but this is actually positive psychology
intervention, that eulogy piece.

576
00:47:34,082 --> 00:47:37,154
yeah, yeah, it's what yeah, please do.

577
00:47:37,154 --> 00:47:42,187
I'll send you some papers or some, know, you know, me the big geeky deep dive into all
this fun stuff.

578
00:47:42,528 --> 00:47:52,235
Yeah, it's it's got really rigorous data around how effective that intervention is in
terms of supporting people with their purpose piece and and having to think about Yeah, it

579
00:47:52,235 --> 00:47:54,176
does around what life

580
00:47:54,250 --> 00:47:57,444
what life is all about to move through existential crisis.

581
00:47:57,444 --> 00:48:01,129
It's got clinical benefits, it's got functioning to flourishing benefits.

582
00:48:01,129 --> 00:48:02,510
So go dad.

583
00:48:03,512 --> 00:48:06,015
And I love that cause you, yeah.

584
00:48:09,214 --> 00:48:11,345
And your legacy is live in action.

585
00:48:11,345 --> 00:48:11,945
So thank you.

586
00:48:11,945 --> 00:48:15,828
It's been such, such a privilege to sit in conversation with you today.

587
00:48:15,828 --> 00:48:17,888
And I hope it's not the last.

588
00:48:17,969 --> 00:48:23,231
I will be cheering from the sidelines for forever and a day and directing people your way.

589
00:48:23,432 --> 00:48:28,739
But I wonder if people do want to keep in touch, what's the best way to follow your work
and the work of TDP.

590
00:48:28,739 --> 00:48:31,038
I I know, but I'm going to throw it to you.

591
00:48:31,038 --> 00:48:32,479
Yeah, okay.

592
00:48:32,479 --> 00:48:34,050
Look, I love LinkedIn the most.

593
00:48:34,050 --> 00:48:34,811
I'm an introvert.

594
00:48:34,811 --> 00:48:37,089
So that would be my favorite social media platform.

595
00:48:37,089 --> 00:48:45,249
I think it's just such a diverse platform, which is so nice when you think about the other
platforms with a real lack of diversity.

596
00:48:45,549 --> 00:48:48,051
The only problem with LinkedIn is I'm not great in DMs.

597
00:48:48,051 --> 00:48:54,186
As a PDA woman, I just get honestly 50 plus different sales messages every single day,
which is

598
00:48:54,186 --> 00:48:55,678
far too much for me.

599
00:48:55,678 --> 00:48:58,799
And unfortunately I lose the meaningful DMs.

600
00:48:58,799 --> 00:49:02,628
So if anyone wants to actually connect, would be Instagram DMs.

601
00:49:02,628 --> 00:49:07,004
I'm available there because there's no horrible sales pitches, know, so on.

602
00:49:07,004 --> 00:49:11,900
So yeah, they'd the two places, LinkedIn and Instagram.

603
00:49:12,534 --> 00:49:15,505
Thank you, I'll throw the links into the show notes as well.

604
00:49:15,954 --> 00:49:17,105
this is awesome.

605
00:49:17,105 --> 00:49:18,245
Cherie, you're the best.

606
00:49:18,245 --> 00:49:20,666
Thank you so much for joining us and to our listeners.

607
00:49:20,666 --> 00:49:26,627
Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Classroom 5.0, our Neuropeak series.

608
00:49:26,627 --> 00:49:32,539
I hope you've enjoyed it and appreciate you for taking time to consider what it means to
drive inclusive impact.

609
00:49:32,539 --> 00:49:33,829
We'll see you next episode.