[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:13] Dan: It's a big week, Pia, in Australia for a number of reasons. How, uh, talk, tell us about the voice.

[00:00:21] Pia: Well, I mean, I think, I think probably everybody knows that over two thirds of the country voted no to having an indigenous voice, a change in the Constitution, um, and a third said yes. So I think that, I mean, gosh, there'll be people listening here who would've voted both sides. There's a week of mourning and silence actually by many of the indigenous leaders they've taken that time to, to process. And you know, I can only, my, my. Empathy is that, um, in 2017, the whole country had, um, another version of a referendum, a plebiscite to decide whether the likes of me were allowed to be married. And I don't think I've ever experienced so much homophobia. And we landed on the better side of that judgment by being allowed. So, uh, my heart goes out to the indigenous people of our country, because I feel that they've been put under a huge amount of pressure, and must be feeling, uh, pretty desolate.

[00:01:33] Um, so that's, you know, that's, that's the impact. I think that we were in a whole system of misinformation, disinformation, politics, and really who could, who could really create the most convincing argument, not really what the actual situation is, and to really take account of how our First Nation people feel and what they absolutely do deserve.

[00:02:00] Dan: Yeah, it seemed like a pretty low bar. Disappointing, but, um, but equally, um, as I say, as you say, empathy for, for both sides of this, that, um, it's also in the interest of dark forces in the world to disrupt these things and for, for us to be in this picture situation now.

[00:02:16] But, um, and today's guest, uh, is, has sort of waded into this, in a, this situation in a way, in a, in a, in a, in a smaller way, in a town in Somerset. Um, but to really grapple with these, these issues of how, um, things just either aren't done or the process just isn't working for us. So, um, we're gonna be talking to Peter Macfadyen now, and, uh, he has, he waded in and he has some great lessons from which I think we can extract some hope. 

[00:02:49] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Peter. Thank you very much for coming on We Not Me.

[00:02:53] Peter: Great pleasure.

[00:02:54] Pia: Now we're gonna hear, much more about what you've been up to in Frome, your, your hometown. But before that, um, I'm gonna hand you over to Mr. Hammond for the card exercise. So, um, I can see that you're looking cool as a cucumber, Peter, but it, you, it may not be that. Let's see.

[00:03:14] Peter: I have no idea what the card exercise is. That's why I'm looking so

[00:03:17] Dan: Oh, Okay. Actually, this, this one generally came up. We did have this one not so long ago, but, um, to be authentic, I ask it, it's a green card, so you're, you're, you're off the hook a little bit. The best film ever made.

[00:03:28] Peter: Yeah, but I can't remember its title. That's the trouble.

[00:03:31] Dan: ah, yeah.

[00:03:33] Peter: It's got sunflowers in it. A lot of sunflowers. It's the guy who goes from America,

[00:03:38] Pia: We could play charades.

[00:03:40] Peter: So it's a guy who goes from America who goes to try and find his past. Uh, he's a very famous actor. No, and he, um, it involves a vegetarian guy and one potato on a plate. A lot of your listeners will know what that is 'cause there is no vegetarian food there. It's a great film.

[00:03:58] Dan: that, that's a lovely, so what did you like about it, Peter? What, um, what's

[00:04:02] Peter: Yeah, it's simpl. It's very simple. Um, it's very funny. Um, but it's very simple. It's got a, but it's got a massively big message and big story in the background. uh, and it's got one potato on a plate. It's just a, which, it's about vegetarian food in countries that don't do vegetarian, because it's like, it's like here's a potato and then a potato at last. You manages to get potato, and the potato rolls onto the floor and the dog eats it. But I, I thoroughly recommend it. Maybe 

[00:04:29] Pia: given away the ending, haven't you? You

[00:04:30] Peter: yeah, I have given away the,

[00:04:32] Dan: That's a

[00:04:32] Pia: but I, I'll just put a call out that, that if any, any of the, the, the listeners who are listening to this now, do know the name of that, please take us out of our misery. Tell us 

[00:04:41] Dan: Excellent, Peter. Well, that's a good, good start. Good start. And, um, so what, tell us along the way, while you are as, as well as watching that, uh, the, the, the potato film, um, talk us through your life to this point. What brought you here? Give us the, give us the bio of Peter McFadyen.

[00:04:57] Peter: Bio of Peter McFadyen. Well, I was born in Wales 66 years ago in Morrison Hospital. I don't think you need this much detail, do you? But I was born in Wales and, and I've always thought until recently, I've always thought myself as Celtic. I've actually lived longer in England now. Anyway, so I've always kind of felt Celtic and that's where I felt happiest. And then Annabel and I, Annabel being my wife, who I've been married to for 40 something years. Um, were in Cornwall first for many years, which is also Celtic.

[00:05:24] Dan: Mm. Yeah. 

[00:05:25] Peter: So somewhere between birth and getting married, I did a lot of gardening. I did a lot of gardening in my parents' life. And then I studied horticulture, and then I taught disabled people. Horticulture and all my life, my work, life's work has been around social justice.

[00:05:43] So I went from teaching disabled people, uh, horticulture and then into the rights of disabled people. Then into the beginnings of an organization which is still based in Frome where I'm sitting now, um, called Action on Disability and Development, which works, uh, on the rights of disabled people in developing countries. So I spent a decade mostly in Africa, but also some bits in India and Guyana, sitting under trees listening to disabled people really.

[00:06:09] Then when we started having children, um, I, well, sounds like a lot, doesn't it? We had two children. have two children. I, um, I didn't wanna be in Africa all the time, so I came back to be a dad and got involved in other charities, particularly Comic Relief, who I worked with for nearly 25 years. I think, um, inventing programs for them and helping give away money. And I've been involved in giving away money again, setting up projects I guess, or setting up, uh, grant making pro uh, programs and then projects, which again are, have always been around social justice.

[00:06:44] And at some point in all that, actually the early, well, 2011, uh, roughly 2000, I got involved in local politics again because I just thought, this is all wrong. Um, you know, the way we do this. And, uh, there's gotta be a way in which the people who are not being represented and listened to and heard, um, can be listened to and heard. And so that took me into, um, all of that world, which we'll talk about a bit more later, um, I guess, um.

[00:07:13] And, um, in parallel, I also got involved, i, I'm a director of a, um, a funeral company, so I'm an undertaker, which is the same thing. We basically do, we, we regard ourselves as a community service. We're tiny, and we do this for, we do this with and for people largely who we know, but again, because there's better ways of doing funerals, um, ways which are more humane and, and caring and less of a ripoff.

[00:07:41] Dan: Amazing, amazing. Well, I must say, when I first, um, when I called you, knowing about your work in, um, in democracy and local politics and all those and activism, um, to when you said if your call is about the funeral directing service, it was a bit of a surprise, I must say. Um, so we are gonna spend quite a bit of time delving into the world of Flatpack Democracy and, uh, all of those things.

[00:08:05] But just talk to us a little bit before we move into that, about this funeral world. Could you, I mean, that's, that's sort of a, there was even a, a sitcom on Netflix wasn't there about it because it's such a fascinating world in a way. It's a big, um, seems like a. How do you, how do you even start? How did you get into that and what are your, you've mentioned some of your goals there, but what does that actually, actually look like in reality?

[00:08:27] Peter: Yes, it's a, it's. It's something we do terribly, in my view in Britain and many other countries. I mean, death generally, the, the process of death. We've got very good at prolonging death and not very good at prolonging life. Well, no, we are good at prolonging life as well. And then we've presented ourselves with a huge problem, um, because people live too long and then often have very unhappy deaths.

[00:08:51] I, my personal involvement was my mum died, um, 37 years ago or something, and, um, had a, an awful funeral in the sense that it, it did, it was, it served no useful purpose for our family really, because it was a shock my mom dying. And so then we had a, a rapidly put together cremation thing where I think the person knew my mom's name, but I'm not even sure, you know, we went to a pub and had terrible sandwiches. My mom was into good food, you know, that it was just awful. did nothing help family. Um, and, uh, my dad paid a fortune for it. 

[00:09:23] And so I kind of had, had that in the back of my mind. And then I met two people in Frome, um,, who were both celebrants. And their challenge was that they were working with funeral directors who often did, did something very different. So the funeral director would turn up in a big black car with a black suit on, and yet they were doing something which they'd spent a long time, um, creating with the family, which might have involved, you know, lots of beautiful flowers and music and, and something was a very mu, much more suited and you had this sort of crunch of, um, uh, the sort of practical arrangements and the service.

[00:09:57] And so we decided, well, let's do this differently. Um, let's do it so that we're, we are doing the arranging as well. And so if you want to use your own car, you can use your own car if you want to, you know, um, have this service in your own garden, you can do that, and so on and so on. Because actually when you said, how do you do this? There's very, very little, almost alarmingly little, which is illegal. Um, you can't have, you can't leave, you know, bodies, um, in the open air. I mean, you can't leave bodies unexposed. That's about it. Um, but you know, you can, you can be buried in your own garden. You can, um, and so on. I mean, actually there's very few rules and virtually and anyone can set up as an undertake. You don't need any, any, um, uh, licensing or, or, or anything,

[00:10:40] Pia: oh 

[00:10:40] Peter: and No.

[00:10:41] Pia: I you to I I really thought you had to have a license of some description to, kind of training. Cert four in funeral direction. You would've thought there was something

[00:10:52] Peter: I, I did do a bit of training actually, because you're right, the, the bit you do need to know is, is which forms to make sure, you know, you've gotta make sure you've got the right forms, uh, you know, for burials and cremations of, you know, of course you have particularly cremations where there's no going back. Um, so yeah, there is, there is a bit, I've been slightly, um, flippant about that. I mean, there's stuff you have to know.

[00:11:12] And it's a hugely sensitive area. I mean, you, the thing which perhaps I, well, I think many normal in inverted commas undertakers, don't know perhaps is, is how to relate to the family. You know, it's that bit which you, which you, which doesn't get taught. So we spend lots of time sitting with people, um, and it's a huge privilege to be, you know, um, included in someone's life at this most, um, often most tragic moment. So you are being brought in to, to a, a really, really awful moment in somebody's life. Often or challenging moment. Sometimes it's not awful because it's mom who's died after years of dementia and actually it's a huge relief. So, so it's been, it's been absolutely fascinating and, um, and as I say, a great, a great privilege and hopefully, well, I know that we've made a real difference to, um, to some people's lives by, by doing it a bit differently.

[00:12:03] In the charging sense, we charge what it costs us, because that's the other thing which absolutely shocked me, and it's not true. There's, it's not true of all undertakers. Of course there's some absolutely brilliant, um, firms and people doing this job, uh, all over the country who do a fantastic job. And there are many occasions, often driven by a big company in the background where the markup is just obscene really, you know. The coffin might cost me 200 quid and I'll, I'll, I'll sell it to you for 800. You know, and it's like all I had to do was phone up. So we do it, you know, so we do it by the time, I mean, no, we charge by how long it takes to arrange the funeral and everything else is exactly what it costs us. 

[00:12:44] Pia: And is that something you're still active, Peter? You still doing that 

[00:12:47] Peter: Yep. We don't do many funerals, as I say, we do, um, I don't know, 15 a year, 20 a year maybe. So compared to, you know, many people who are doing five a week or you know, or whatever, even quite small companies, it's, we're tiny.

[00:13:01] Pia: And it's a really, it's comforting thought and it's quite interesting that I think a little bit like weddings, the sort of the, these major rituals we are, we are changing and we are trying to personify them in the way that, that works better for us, you know? Whereas I think some of those places that you have funerals are just the, the most sort of mechanistic, soul destroying places that, you know, you just think if that's your last place, that's not, you know. So it's a, it's great that we're actually got a little bit more, it's always felt very rigid, very religious first, and then very religious. So to be able to have something that, where you've, you've, um, chosen a much more humanistic. I think is, um, yeah, it's really heartening actually.

[00:13:47] Dan: And, and we are not, and we are not good at death generally, are we? So brilliant to make a move into that and make it a, as you as Pearse has a much more human experience. It's, yeah, wonderful. 

[00:13:58] And so, Peter, let's, let's, um, a lot of you shines through what you just said actually, but let's, um, let's move into this area we, we, we really want to get stuck into now, which is your local activism. You said, you know, how are we getting local politics so wrong. Talk us through the story of how you got involved in that and take us that, if you wouldn't mind, just take us all the way through to, yeah, tell us the full story of Flatpack Democracy and Frome and all of those things. Get, let's get stuck in.

[00:14:26] Peter: Okay. So, uh, we came to firm, um, about 30 years ago, and a small market town in the foot far corner, well in the corner of Somerset. Quite neglected in many ways, um, uh, geographically and, and in other, um, ways. And very rundown, um, which is why people like us, uh, to some extent started coming here because it was actually what happens is houses are cheaper, and, um, so people come and then you, you get a new wave of, of, um, of often younger people like we were, who came and, and then had children and, and become part of the community. And within that was an absolutely typical town council. 

[00:15:06] Um, having looked at this more over the years, uh, I've realized that of the 10,000 odd town and village councils, there are many, which are, are brilliant, um, a bit like funeral directors. And there are many which are not. Um, you know, and, um, uh, uh, the vast majority just sit there. Uh, they don't, they never have elections because nobody really wants to do it. They don't, they, and, and perhaps most importantly, they have very little ambition. They're a group of, of people who've kind of always been counselors, um, or are prepared to do that job. They, they spend a lot of time looking at planning applications, which actually they don't make the decisions about. They, they're re recommending. 

[00:15:46] Anyway, I won't go into the detail, but, but there's, you know, there's this layer, this bottom layer of so-called democracy. I'll have a little democracy rant in a moment, that really doesn't function and it didn't function in Frome at all. In the same sort of way, group of people who'd been there for a very long time. Perfectly nice people, a couple of them were married to each other. Um, others of, you know, they'd, they'd, they'd been there for years and it, it was part of their way of life to be counselors. And frome hadn't had elections for many years because there were never enough people who wanted to do this job because it's a voluntary role.

[00:16:21] And then a group of us, um, got together in, in my case, I was stimulated by, um, I'd started something called Sustainable Frome which was the transition town movement in Frome, effectively. So it was looking at all things around, uh, envir, all things environmental. Trying to bring people together who were doing environmental stuff. And I knew about climate change for instance. Um, and I went to the town council and said, so, you know, what's your policy on, on, on climate change, on PICO Oil, or on these larger sort of issues? And they said, we haven't got one, um, and we don't need to have one, and we're not going to have one. We run parks and allotments now please go away, you know?

[00:16:58] And so I was sort of commenting on that really to a, a number of other people, um, uh, or a couple of other people. And they had similar stories from different angles, which were really about, as I say, about lack of ambition. But one of us, a guy called Mel Asher had been in local politics, uh, well, sorry, no, he'd, he'd worked for a council. He was chief executive of a, of a council or had been, he had retired. Um, so he knew he too had come to Frome and gone, Whoa, this is really unambitious and austerity is about to happen. Um, and what that will do is it will take, there won't be money coming down from above. The, the, the higher levels of councils will no longer be providing grants to Frome. Um, and so we are gonna get hit by, uh, a real problem that the things we used to have and. They ain't gonna happen. So unless we have some way of doing this ourselves as a community, um, we're, we're in trouble.

[00:17:54] So we started talking about that and really we, we, we thought, let's raise this as an issue to the existing people. We hadn't thought of getting elected, but the thing rolled very quickly. We had a meeting, um, in a pub to bring together people to, to talk about, you know, how the council could do a better job, really. Um, and at that time, at almost exact moment, the council, um, did a terrible job. They had a public meeting around a, an ISU of a hall that they were, um, in Frome which was going to the council owned, and they handled that terribly badly and very autocratically.

[00:18:27] So you had a number of sort of grumpy people in Frome, a lot of people going Who was, who were that lot? Did I vote for them? Actually, no you didn't. 'cause they were never elected, you know? So the issue got raised and then very quickly we found that we had, um, there were 20 people who said, well, I, yeah, I'm up for standing in the council, let's become councilors. And then that was it. Only a few months before an election, uh, the 2011 elections. But we ran a very upbeat, um, campaign. We used things like social media, which had never been heard of, you know?

[00:18:59] If you went on the party. Oh, that's the other thing which we realized we were absolutely against. All of the current counselors were members of political, national, political parties. And our point was, What's that gotta do with Frome, you know? Why does, I don't know, policy on refugees have anything to do with us? Um, so we'd rather be electing people by their commitment to the town or their, you know, their ideas about Frome than on their ideas, uh, their national level ideas. So we were sort of anti-political party.

[00:19:33] And none of their parties, they, they didn't, they didn't campaign at all really, because they never had had to. And so lo and behold, we won, um, a majority of seats in that first election. There were still six of the old school old, um, lot there. Um, and then really because we had Mel, I mean, what he could tell us is a lot of what you think are rules, a lot of what people think are the way we have to do things, they're recommendations.

[00:19:59] So there are rules and you do have to obey some of them Things like having a a, um, an annual audit and so on. It's public money you are collecting, you know, of course you do. And you have to have a number of set meetings and so on. But the vast majority, like the number of committees you have, um, the way you run your meetings, all that sort of thing are recommended.

[00:20:21] And so we got rid of the lot, um, uh, right from the, basically from day one. At that very first meeting, we elected the mayor, who's also the chair, um, which we needed to do. And then the next thing we did was suspended the meeting. And the um, the people who were still left from the political power parties, one did actually burst into tears and said, we knew it. We knew you were a bunch of anarchists. Or Marxists, I think she said. Um, yeah, you know, we knew that there was a plot. 'Cause of course we had all along we'd said, we haven't got a manifesto. We'd basically said, look, just elect us, um, because you know who we are. And you know that we are people of Frome and, and, and then we will work with you.

[00:21:03] What we'd said to the people of Frome is we will listen to you and, and do what is right for Frome. Um, and also we will work in a different way as a group. Um, and those were the only two things we'd said. We'd said, we as a group of individuals, uh, the key thing we said is, we'll, essentially we'll listen to each other. We had a set of what we called ways of working, but that, that was the main one, that we wouldn't stab each other in the back. We'd listen to each other, and if we disagreed with something, we wouldn't hold that against each other.

[00:21:34] So we'd run non-confrontational politics, which doesn't mean we can't disagree with each other. Um, but it means that we won't be constantly looking for ways to, you know, to undermine and all that sort of thing. So that was what we said. That's how we will behave as a group and we will listen to you as people.

[00:21:54] Um, So then when we got in as a bunch of Marxists, we said, yeah, actually we dunno, we don't, we basically said, we don't know what we're doing. We don't know why we have all these committees. We don't know why all this is happening, so let's just hold it for a minute. And, you know, it was like, No, you can't do that. We've got to set up all these committees. And, um, we said, well, why, what decision has got to be made in the next two or three weeks? There weren't any of course that had to be made, you know, in that timescale.

[00:22:21] And then we, um, we did it all differently. We got rid of sort of, I can't remember. There were seven or eight committees and we created two. Um, and I guess, and I think one of the main things we did was we opened up the space to the public. Most, um, council meetings were here and still are all over Britain, a row of people or even sometimes a circle of people with their backs to the audience, if there is any, you know, if there is any audience, which is very, very rare, um, because why would you go? Um, and, um, you, you, you're often, you're only allowed a few minutes if you want to come, you have to book in to talk about what you want to talk, and you get a couple of minutes at the most, then you are told no, you're not told to shut up, but you're told your time has come up. And at that point, um, the counselors don't have to say anything. They don't have to make any decision. They don't, they don't even have to say thank you. You know. It's, it's incredibly rude and it's sort of set up to show the power of the counselors.

[00:23:21] So we changed all that and had an open, an open room, uh, where you didn't even know who the counselors were. Very early on when I was at a table, we hadn't voted at that point. Uh, we've just been talking really, and, and talking in, in, in groups and listening to people. And then when I did vote, the person next to me said, oh, I didn't know you were a counselor. And I thought, yes, you know, that's exactly what you know, you wanted. And there I was in my shorts. Um, which incidentally, I got told off for very early on, there was a complaint, a public complaint. 

[00:23:50] Dan: So many questions arising from this, Peter, but could you just play it out? So play it forward to What's happened since then. What, what's, yeah, just complete the picture if you wouldn't mind. And I know we we're bursting with questions for you.

[00:24:04] Peter: Sorry, that was a bit long, a bit, wasn't it? But it's kind of important to set that. I mean, that whole, that whole underpinning of informality. And also we are here as, as members of this community doing a voluntary job in that community. We're not there. Um, to take power or to sort of, uh, be powerful people. I think that's the main thing.

[00:24:25] Um, taking it forward. We, the, the, the key thing that we did was we changed the whole approach of the council, so that before something like 10 grand of the, of a million pound income used to go out back into the community as, um, as grants to community organizations. We immediately multiplied that by 10. So we made that a hundred and something, um, thousand, and we brought in, um, people, uh, two and then three members of staff. And now there are many more, um, to support community groups.

[00:24:57] Because going back to that austerity thing, we said, um, We've got to strengthen the voluntary sector of the town. We've got to really help the organizations in the town, um, to be able to run independently, to, you know, to be able to apply for funds outside of the council system so that they are strong enough and well enough, um, together to, to apply for lottery funding and other grant funding and so on. Um, and to carry out the jobs, which the council employees would've done in the past because that money ain't gonna be there.

[00:25:31] And over the next, um, uh, well, when I was the council the next eight years, that was the main focus building that, uh, you know, building that, that area of, of, of Frome. And that's continued because the next election, independence for Frome won every seat and every election ever since, of which there've been three Independence for Frome have won every seat. So F's been run in this way, um, uh, for wherever we are now, um, 15, um, or so years.

[00:25:56] At the core of that is a council that sort of says yes as opposed to know, um, and is there to facilitate, I mean, sometimes of course to catalyze and to do stuff, but primarily to facilitate others. Um, and that stood Frome very well during Covid and, and all the lockdowns because a, again, rather than perhaps a couple of council workers desperately trying to, you know, get things going, the council was able to provide space, provide a little bit of money, provide encouragement and support and so. But there were this plethora of organizations that could. Know very quickly where vulnerable people were organized food to be, uh, pushed out.

[00:26:36] And I know that, again, that happened in many, many other places as well. But in general, that that whole principle of having the thing turned upside down so that it's, you know, you go to the council because they're gonna help you to do what you want to do, not to ask them permission for anything. 

[00:26:52] Dan: It's, well, it's, it's, uh, it's an incredible story and I, I, and the, that, yeah, that turning upside down as you say that real democratizing to use a sort of jargony thing, but actually putting it into the community seem, and, and taking away from looking up to the council seems to be of such a, a powerful and much needed thing.

[00:27:12] What, but, and it sounds all really logical, looking back and really sensible, what, what objections, what barriers did you hit in the community?

[00:27:20] Peter: Um, I think were two areas of that. One is that actually it turns out that people do struggle with change. And particularly early on when we, it wasn't clear why we were doing what we were doing, I guess, um, people did object and, and struggled.

[00:27:38] So for instance, quite early on when, well, when we first looked at the budget, we were spending a lot of money on bedding plants. Um, sounds small, but you know, it turned out it was really important to people. 'Cause we said, um, you know, going back again to my horticultural bus, I said, well, let's get rid of all that and put in perennial plants that cost us more upfront, but then we'll never have to pay again. Makes all sorts of sense, but oh no. You know, pa uh, parks that there are, there are places where people want bedding plants and, and, um, so people get very upset about things like that. Um, and, and perhaps because they didn't really trust us either that new, you know, way of thinking, they would just see me and others as this bunch of anarchists who suddenly arrived, Um, they had no idea who we were, whereas they did know all the other people who were, you know, had been there for many years.

[00:28:26] So some of that we didn't do as cleverly as we, as carefully as we might have done. I think we crashed in. Um, and, and, and a bit similarly, really, it, it turns out that the other levels, you know, the higher levels who we did kind of need. So, um, at that time we, we had a district council. We no longer have one in Somerset 'cause that's gone. But we had a district council and they really, really not only didn't understand what we were doing, but didn't like it. I mean, to me, they should have loved what we were doing 'cause we were making it all happen cheaper and often we were doing what they were set up to do, you know, for nothing. But they absolutely didn't like us at all because we, they didn't, 'cause we weren't within the party political system. 

[00:29:09] Um, so they started being antagonistic to us. And our approach to that was, you know, I'm sure it'd be censored out of your radio program if I told you what we really thought, but, um, and mean, we just basically went, well, so you we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna play the game. And so we were very rude to them. So we started publishing a list of all the things they didn't do and so on and so, but what we kind of hadn't realized is that, that they held some very important, um, levers. They made the planning decisions, um, and they did have some grants and so on. So they just stopped working with Frome, really, which, which was a pro, which was a real problem. And they, we know now, they did put, you know, their staff were told, you know, just put it on the bottom of the pile, you know. So some bits of land, say, which we wanted to acquire from, uh, that council. Some bit of rubbish ground, which no one had ever used. We wanted, 'cause the community wanted it, it would never happen. And we are going, why, you know, why is this not happened 18 months later? And it was really just, anyway. We shouldn't have gone to war with them. We should have groveled a bit, um, retrospectively and, and in order to get what we wanted, uh, uh, you know, and, and so that was definitely a, a mistake.

[00:30:22] Um, And explaining more carefully, I think, um, perhaps to people it most people know, vote the way they've always voted, do the things they've always done. And, um, we probably, we were so excited at getting on with it that we didn't really spend enough time bringing other people, um, on board. And although crucially, um, We were not all middle class incomers like me. I mean, I've been here 30 years, but I'm still an incomer. You know, some of us were very deliberately and, and, uh, people from, um, uh, other SEC sectors of the community. And we had a great age range. The, um, uh, Dicken who followed me as a mayor was 21 when he was mayor.

[00:31:02] So we did try and really cover things and pretty much every council has had an equal number of women as, um, as men, which is again, is very rare at this level. Oh, well, any level of government. Um, but we didn't, we never really, uh, fully managed to communicate as well as we might.

[00:31:19] Pia: so how do you, how do you ensure the legacy beyond you, in Frome? So you've obviously played a big part in this, and this has gone 15 years. How do you prevent it swinging back to, or, or the system playing its part and sort of engulfing your aims to change it? 

[00:31:38] Peter: I mean, the core of what we set out to do in Frome I think definitely remains and Frome's Council, you know, is at heart, um, What we tried to do, but we were, you know, we were driven. I hinted at it just now. We were driven by a lot of adrenaline. It was very exciting. You know, one, I, I said I'm only gonna do this if it's fun. I laughed more in those eight years and I've laughed the rest of my life, I think. You know, we had a lot of fun. Um, because we were getting things done. Um, but a lot of those things have now been done and there is humdrum stuff that councils have to do. And as we sort of face another raft of, um, I don't know, it won't be called austerity will it? But effectively, cost of living crisis means there are some really difficult things to do that are difficult choices around budgets, you know? So it's hard to keep that level of, of enjoyment, I think.

[00:32:33] Um, and therefore to be, one thing that happens is it's actually hard to keep the younger, um, people engaged. So it's hard to get younger counselors who are, who, who are at, at, at a different point of their lives. You're more likely to get a bunch of people who are now more like what I am now of, you know, older and retired and half the time and prepared to sit down for the long, boring meetings. Um, and that's happened a bit.

[00:32:59] But the is gonna say, is, is that, I wrote this book called Flatpack Democracy, which was aimed at, at helping others to, to take the best of what we've done in Frome and replicate it. Not, I regret the name actually. Well, I would certainly regret the subtitle, which is, um, a DIY Guide to Creating Independent Politics, because actually, um, it's not, you can't pick it up and, and create everywhere's different. It turned out, of course, that there are great things in that book that will, that can guide councils and, and um, and people who want to have that revolution. But actually it's not completely replicable.

[00:33:33] And it turns out that a lot of the places which have taken power in different ways, 'cause there've been many over the years now, don't manage to retain that. It doesn't last very long. The pull back to the norm is huge without a Mel Asher to give you confidence to kind of say, this is what you can do, and really, you know, to, to, to give you that confidence. And particularly if you've got a clerk who's not really on board, I. So we had a clerk who was on board eventually. We had to get rid of the first one, but that's another story when we gotta, the second one, he was really up for what we wanted to do. If you've got a clerk who's much more, oh no, you don't wanna do it like that, and they're the sort of expert, they're, they've been there for ages, you don't wanna do anything illegal, you know, so you are really looking to them. It's, it's ha, it, it's.

[00:34:21] One of the big disappointments of this really for me, is how, how quickly some places, which had fantastic revolutions, I mean though 16 out 17 counts, new counselors in places who'd had no elections for years and so on and so on, go there four or five years later and they, they look horribly like they did before. And, uh, and sometimes that's ego. Um, I can think of one famous case, which I won't name the place, uh, you know, where the person who was elected mayor took the, you know, went down the Trump route of Maddo. Um, you know, I now, I now run this town and, um, and, and got out, actually did leave the independent group, um, immediately and, and, um, got into bed, not literally, uh, with the town clerk.

[00:35:02] And anyway, there's plenty to go wrong. There's plenty of, and, and, and I wrote a follow up book, um, which is partly what goes wrong, um, uh, and with a chapter on ego in that, um, because I think that's one of the key things. And because we had at our core these ways of working, which were largely about trying to, trying to reduce ego, really we're kind of saying, well, as I say, it doesn't, it doesn't matter whose idea it was. We we're working on this together, uh, don't worry about getting defeated once or, you know, if your ideas don't get taken up. Lots of that sort of thing. We had that sort of built in, that helped us greatly.

[00:35:40] So there's not many places that I can think of or that I know of who've retained things. Right through. But there are others that keep rising. So Forest Row, for instance, in May this year, elected 14 outta 15, um, counselors, and they're doing some fantastic, you know, spectacular, um, things in that little town. So I, you know, there are places that are, are really changing with the same model. That's a very long answer to your question, but

[00:36:08] Dan: There's, there's danger lurking, for

[00:36:10] Peter: Yeah, there is definitely danger lurking. And the parties, the political parties don't like it. So, you know, the, the election after us, they all stood. So, so when we got in ev, every party including UKIP stood in Frome, you know? And as I say, they'd never really got as involved, and they ran vigorous campaigns. Um, of course what they did was split the vote by, by all standing. So the only reason we got 17 outta 17 councilors is because UKIP pinched sufficient, um, Tory votes, for instance, which, 'cause there weren't very many people voting. So, so, uh, so it's slightly backfired in that sense and, and we won everything.

[00:36:49] But, um, yeah, they don't, they don't like it because they see it, they see this level as the starting point. You get the town. You get a, a, a labor town, and then you get a labor district and then a county, and then you get a labor mp and then, you know, and then you take total power.

[00:37:05] Dan: Yeah. And that's, that's, that's the way the, the current system works that people love to go back to. 

[00:37:10] Um, being a little bit parochial for a minute here in sunny Ilkley in the Yorkshire Dales, which we mentioned a few times, certainly your book, and I think it was used as a DIY guide to be honest, um, and has had a huge, has it had an impact. But what's happening here is something that Pia and I've talked a lot about on this podcast, which is, which is division and obviously the, those big parties, the Trumps, I won't name all the other people, but, but the division is a great way to lead. Well, no, well, not a great way to lead, but a great way to dominate.

[00:37:40] Um, and we're seeing so much division here. Um, we are actually in the, ilkley was in the paper slightly shamefully for being a sort of petty, um, you know, we've had got this fountain gate at the moment, which people are arguing about a fountain. We've got the 20 mile an hour zone, people arguing over that. And there's a sort of, I. Base division of progressive versus small c Conservative and, um, going on in the town. And it's really quite painful, really and awful to see a town going through that. And the way method by which the conversations are happening are all wrong. Fight out on social media, get in a room and shout at people.

[00:38:18] And it's get to the point where you sort of wonder whether, how to do something about it, but it's this core of division that seems to be so, uh, Well, quite dangerous really. And sort of worrying is, is that just a situation that what you are talking about actually, if you press on build, you know, the two barriers you said mostly built by building trust, if you push on and, and build trust, you could get through it, or is there a bigger issue now than there was back in the day? What's, what's, should we be disheartened or should we, can we, is there still hope?

[00:38:52] Peter: I think you can. I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

[00:38:55] Dan: Great. Great answer.

[00:38:57] Peter: I think you can definitely be disheartened. And it's, and it is deeply depressing, isn't it? And, and, and at, at, at all levels. And that is where we've kind of gone. Not helped by that being the model, uh, the national model isn't it of, of, of heart, you know, confrontation is the only thing that matters and, and you just slag each other off, uh, you know, in the most ridiculous ways. Um, so that's, that, you know, that model coming down of this is how we, we run things is really, really unhelpful, I think.

[00:39:26] And then, um, yes, there can be hope. A bit of hope, which I'd chuck into that mix, is something called the Humanity Project, which I'm now involved in, which is based exactly on this. So Humanity Project is setting up around Britain, people's assemblies. So people's assemblies are, um, just bringing together people to talk about, well, initially to talk about what, whatever, to, to identify what is important to them. So really well facilitated meetings. And what's a bit different about this is that there's money and support, um, to help people to learn to, or facilitate these meetings in ways which, which take that confrontation out.

[00:40:07] Um, and some really, really good people in there, setting out skills, um, and again, and as I say, doing training, um, to, to make sure that those meetings aren't dominated by those discussions and that, uh, you know, they're not, that doesn't mean that those issues are, are just shut up because they need to happen. So your 20 mile an hour speed limit and limit meeting, um, should still happen, but it happens with, with people coming together as members of your community. And lo and behold, they find that, that actually they have many things in common. They actually both want to all want to get their children to school and they do care about these things. So I think that's what you've got to do because it's actually only by having human contact that you can, you can, you can really, um, you know, get over some of those issues.

[00:40:53] At the very beginning of the, of the Frome story, there was a guy called Nick White and I, um, were two of the original, um, candidates, and Nick's wife said, uh, Nick White and Peter Macfadyen in one room, this will never work. Um, because Nick was, uh, courted by UKIP. He's, or, you know, he'd often voted Tory. He's definitely far right. Um, we enjoyed eight years of, of, um, working together. His children went to the same school. My children do. Uh, you know, it turned out we agree about 98% of everything and, and the things we never really talked about, the things we didn't need to, or we might as we later on, as we got to know each other, well, we probably, you know, we did in the pub kind of thing, but we never did publicly 'cause we didn't, we didn't need to, we were talking about Frome. And that's, I think that will, that's where this has to go.

[00:41:40] So the idea of the Humanity Project is to build a huge number of these, um, you know, so communities will have these meetings happening, whether they have councils or not, and whether the council engages with that or not, 'cause it runs independently of, of the political system. Because it's time we gave up on the political system, I think. Um, I mean, or the way that we've set this up simply doesn't work. And, and I'm, you know, I won't have too long around.

[00:42:07] But I mean, the, the, the, I did the conservative, the, the party political, whatever it is, conference that's going on at the moment is such a good example of this. And it wouldn't really matter which party we're talking about, but the fact that you can have the Prime Minister who none of us voted for coming out and saying, we are gonna do this, we're gonna do that this night. Where's democracy in this, where, where, when did I decide anything about HS2? When did I decide whether children should smoke? I mean, I think it's a good idea, or they don't, but you know, it's like, um, it's like, you know, it's like, hang on a minute. We seem to, ah, you know.

[00:42:41] My, one of my other regrets, um, in all this was calling a book in some ways Flatpack Democracy 'cause. We haven't got a democracy. We've never had one, and we didn't even in Frome. I mean, we come closer to it by really working to involve people, but the sooner we realize we haven't got a democracy, the better. I think 

[00:42:59] Dan: That, that certainly backs up my hunch, which was it's about a better method of conversation that will bring these sides together to understand each other because we share so much. Uh, that's, that's, that, that makes perfect sense. And Pia and I see this in, in groups everywhere where division quickly emerges, but actually it's based on that 2% of disagreement, which actually can probably be figured out if we have a, have a civilized conversation about it.

[00:43:25] Peter: Yeah. Or yes, exactly. Or you simply recognize that you don't agree, but because you agree on most of it, it doesn't

[00:43:32] Dan: Yeah. It's as, as one of our, uh, our ex-colleagues says, conflict is inevitable, combat is optional. And, uh, and I think we, we tend to delve into combat quite a bit. 

[00:43:43] Peter, another question, if you don't mind. Um, you talked about trust quite a bit, but the, the, the pointy bit of this, that's quite tricky. It's sort of happened here locally as well. You are trying to change things, but you are in the current divisions of things. You are on one side. As you said, you've got your, you've got your Tory UKIP person on one side. You, you're coming from the other side/ and a lot of the people who are interested in what you're talking about are from, you know, the progressive end of things and that you are therefore, in this current environment, you're sort of the enemy to quite a lot of the people who have a different approach. I'm not saying either of those is right. All I'm saying is, um, that you, how do you, how may, maybe you've answered this already, but then you seem to be the challenges in a way. You're starting with a sort of distrust, aren't you? Are there, it is a Marxist, therefore are not gonna like them. How did what, what, what else did you do to break that down and try to bring, bring people with you if you sort, I mean in this sort of sort of divid divided world?

[00:44:44] Peter: Food. 

[00:44:45] Dan: Oh, what a great answer. Now you're talking our language.

[00:44:50] Peter: Certainly, it's only part of the, part of the answer. I mean, as, as a group of counselors. So as a group of us, we went, we, we had what we jokingly called party, uh, uh, party conferences. Um, we basically, we went, um, because we weren't a party, a political party, we, we rented with our own money, um, a space, you know, a cottage originally when there were not very many of us, and then a number of, you know, cottages, endo, and we went away for a weekend so that we could spend time together as individuals to do exactly what I'm saying. So I and Nick White could spend the weekend together, you know? Making breakfast together, uh, you know, going out for a walk together. And then, but also working. So like, really looking at what strategy we wanted for Frome in well facilitated meetings.

[00:45:31] So as a group, we put, we did that every year. Um, and it was really important to us to build those relationships in order to be able to, um, to work together. Um, and, and, you know, and that was definitely underpinned, uh, a lot of our success. And, and I would say the same kind of thing is true, particularly if you're working in a relatively small community, um, where you can have big, um, uh, community things.

[00:45:56] Stroud has something called the long table, which is well worth looking at, which is absolutely fascinating, which is a, it's what it says it is on, on the can really, where, where they have a public, a long table, they, they have events, um, which people can come to. I don't quite know enough about this to tell you the detail, but it's easily lookable uppable. Um, so they're bringing to get people together, but around food. And often somebody's making that, uh, it's being made by the community and given to another bit of community. 

[00:46:24] Uh, wells, uh, independent group use food. They have something called the Big Soup. So they have, um, you know, people coming together, um, and eating soup together. Um, So that you're coming to, if you don't want to talk, you can just have the soup and go, kind of thing. You know, if you don't want to discuss the issue, you don't. And that somehow, I think that helps, isn't it? There's, there's something about our, um, our humanity around, uh, you know, it's one of our, um, essentials. 

[00:46:51] Pia: And I think, um, Peter, what's so interesting hearing these stories, I think the ramifications of covid, um, the stresses it's placing on life, uh, and even potentially social media. We are lo we're losing some of that, that human connection and what you've talked about is, is, is almost, it, it looks slightly, I can understand what people think. It's, it's an anarchist approach, but it's actually back to basics. Back to basics of how to get on with things and um, and how to work together. And I think that's been just really enlightening.

[00:47:30] And I bet there's people listening today who are in towns and villages all over the world actually thinking, you know, how, how could I make something constructive about the way that we all work together? Um, instead of picking fights and combat, which just isn't gonna be useful?

[00:47:49] Peter: Yeah, exactly. You have to look at what the, the real root of what matters to you in, in that way. So, like, you know, on, so on Saturday I'm running a, a compost workshop on a, on a, um, a, a community allotment round the corner before running a street apple pressing event, just off the top of my head. But those sort of things are, are they're absolutely what.

[00:48:08] And they'll be happening around you already, won't they? But a council could support that. So the council in this case has, has, has acquired the land for the community allotment. Um, and it's part of paying for the organization, which shares the Apple press, 'cause it's a community owned Apple press, you know. So, so it's that, it's that oiling the wheels, it's facilitating bit, which the council's done releasing small amounts of money. And, and, and facilitating the release of a larger amount of land. Which are all things which in times of austerity and, you know, they don't take, they don't take any money. You can do that as a, you can do that as a town council, do that as a village council. You don't, you know.

[00:48:43] You know, I think often councils get defeated by the fact that they, they, they don't have any power. All the power is with central government. And so, so hence the lack of ambition, but, I think what we've tried to show is that you can do a hell of a lot at this level. 

[00:48:57] Pia: So Peter, it's a final thought for people listening to this. What's, what's, uh, what's something that, almost like a pearl of wisdom that everyone should be? I. Taking out of this and, and something that they can really glean in their own community and their own life?

[00:49:12] Peter: I would say don't start from where you are. Which sounds like, which is completely incomprehensible, isn't it? It's like, it's that thing which Einstein said something about, um, of, of not using the tools. You know, if you are in a system, which is, which is a complete mess, you have to start from somewhere else. And there's a, there's a joke that's often told about, you know, you are in some foreign country, and, and you ask someone, what ha, you know, tell me what's the way to the cinema? And they, and they say, oh, I wouldn't start from here. Actually, I was thinking about the that the other day. It's genius.

[00:49:45] It's like, it's like with democracy. People are always saying to me, will you join this campaign for proportional representation? Will you help get more 16 year olds voting? You know, how do we get more young people? And I'm thinking, there's no point. The system is completely dysfunctional. We need a totally different system. Don't tweak what you're, start, start from somewhere else.

[00:50:05] And that's kind of what we did in Frome. We said this whole model is broken, you know, so don't start from where. Don't start from here. Don't try and don't try and fiddle about with, with this, and make it work. Actually create something of totally different. That will be my thought for the day.

[00:50:22] Pia: Fabulous. Thank you. Thanks so much, Peter, for joining us. It's been, it is been a real insight to, to hear what you've been doing and I think, yeah, I think that's gonna provide a lot of inspiration for people, so thank you.

[00:50:37] Peter: Good. Great pleasure. 

[00:50:40] Pia: We went camping the weekend before the, the vote for the voice. And um, we had a great conversation where we stood around a tree and talked for 30 minutes about different perspectives and our thoughts on it. And it was a really robust conversation where we were looking at the whole spectrum of, you know, the yes and the no and and the definite no, and the implications of what it was.

[00:51:09] And when the conversation was finished, and we did have different perspectives on it, I thanked my friends because that was a proper, robust discussion. I got something outta that. We were close enough in physical proximity to feel the energy of what we were talking about, and to see the impact. And so it was a, it was a visceral experience actually, not just a, a terrain on a, on a social media platform, which I think is, you know, I think we talked about just reduces things to become opinions. It's like a. Like a PostIt on a global notice board. And as soon as somebody starts saying to me, I've been listening to so and so, start getting, 'cause the feet, where are, you know, we're being manipulated so much, we think we've got total freedom with all this information and we're being utterly, in my humble opinion, manipulated. So it's better to have a human conversation.

[00:52:08] Dan: If you think about what Peter said, I love the fact that he's saying that we have so much in common. It's so easy to say you are a yes person. You are a no person. Personally. I fell into this trap back in the day with Brexit. You're a Brexit, I'm a remainder. We, you know, well, no, actually that's just one of your beliefs around, in a small part of your mind. And, and Peter's number of 98% I think is, is, um, probably unscientific, but really optimistic that we share so much with other people. And even when we get into that 2% where we disagree, we could just leave it as a disagreement or we could try to understand it. 

[00:52:45] And I think the same thing actually probably plays out in all kinds of teams. You know, emails going backwards and forwards. But you know, things like Twitter or X or, or whatever it's called now, um, they, they just exacerbate these things through oversimplifying and the humanity of the conversation under the tree chat transforms things, doesn't it? 

[00:53:03] Pia: it's fueling a quality in individuals to be mean to one another and to find things that are wrong and to make themselves right. And that, you know, that is a, a part of, I'm sure of our sort of, you know, our mechanism to, of survival, but it's not, it's not thriving. It really does not take us and evolve us forward.

[00:53:23] Dan: And let's not think for a moment that it's a neutral forum either. We are, you know, the algorithms are biased, there are bad actors deliberately, you know, bot farms churning out misinformation. So we we're just, um, we've got to realize that the way in which we do things. As I said, you know, a little town, it all went off on social media, and then let's have a meeting in a room where we shouted each other. It just sort of, you know, fire people up on social media and then get together to make it even worse.

[00:53:52] So I, I think this is such an optimistic thought, obviously. Challenges along the way. But I think what Peter shared with us is, is um, gives us some hope. And the final thought I had to mention is I loved his answer to how you cure division and its food. Um, that's, I relate, I can relate to that. And it's that humanity of the tree on the campsite that, uh, that will, that will bring us together and have a proper conversation. So in these torrid times, I think that's a, a huge. Learning for everyone. And Peter's an inspiration for us, as are many small towns across the world who are trying to get a grip on their, their own, um, the way they work together, better for the town and not for political parties.

[00:54:33] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes on squadify.net under Resources. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:54:54] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.