WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness, 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610 Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360 Ali: And then there are the 10, 000 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760 things. 00:00:21.574 --> 00:00:23.464 Sam: Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things. 00:00:23.474 --> 00:00:24.844 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:25.274 --> 00:00:25.754 Joe: My name's Joe Loh. 00:00:26.304 --> 00:00:27.464 Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados. 00:00:28.279 --> 00:00:29.179 Joe: Today on the show, 00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:33.519 Sam: three neurodivergent people deal with one of the 10, 000 things. 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:36.349 Joe: Yeah, is that our, is that our thing? 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:37.839 Sam: Something like that, isn't it? 00:00:38.349 --> 00:00:38.899 Yeah. 00:00:38.959 --> 00:00:39.749 Ali: Sounds good to me. 00:00:39.899 --> 00:00:40.319 Hmm. 00:00:40.329 --> 00:00:43.249 We workshopped it, we improved it a bit a couple of episodes ago and 00:00:43.249 --> 00:00:46.339 I think we'll just keep improving it until we find one we like. 00:00:46.409 --> 00:00:49.689 Joe: Do we need the neurodivergent angle for people to listen to us or not? 00:00:50.649 --> 00:00:51.679 Sam: I think for some people... 00:00:52.204 --> 00:00:56.364 It's an, it's added value, but then at a certain point you forget that you're 00:00:56.364 --> 00:00:58.834 listening to three neurodivergent people, they're just three people and 00:00:58.834 --> 00:01:00.544 that's kind of the whole point I guess. 00:01:00.664 --> 00:01:01.094 Joe: Yeah. 00:01:01.514 --> 00:01:03.764 What percentage of the population is neurodivergent? 00:01:04.254 --> 00:01:04.674 Sam: Great. 00:01:04.784 --> 00:01:05.144 I don't know. 00:01:05.194 --> 00:01:07.096 Ali, you might have a better idea than me. 00:01:07.096 --> 00:01:07.708 No idea. 00:01:07.708 --> 00:01:10.054 I mean, you hear things like one in five. 00:01:10.854 --> 00:01:12.069 Ali: That probably sounds about right. 00:01:12.356 --> 00:01:15.396 Sam: Yeah, or am I getting that mixed up with, that's the rate 00:01:15.466 --> 00:01:17.546 for chronic anxiety for under 20s. 00:01:17.546 --> 00:01:18.846 But I mean look, it's often one in five. 00:01:18.866 --> 00:01:21.646 Joe: I think in a capitalist society you need to have an angle 00:01:21.706 --> 00:01:23.516 and we, that's our angle, right? 00:01:23.566 --> 00:01:23.826 Yeah. 00:01:23.856 --> 00:01:24.836 The neurodivergent. 00:01:25.046 --> 00:01:26.616 Sam: Everyone has to market themselves, that's right. 00:01:26.636 --> 00:01:27.086 Joe: Yeah. 00:01:27.346 --> 00:01:30.176 And there's a neurodivergent flag that we could hang up here in the 00:01:30.176 --> 00:01:31.646 garage if we really wanted to. 00:01:32.431 --> 00:01:32.921 Sam: Oh, for sure. 00:01:32.931 --> 00:01:34.311 Well, I've already got the rainbow flag up. 00:01:34.491 --> 00:01:37.081 Joe: But we could slice it and dice it more so that me and Ali were 00:01:37.081 --> 00:01:39.781 the bipolars, which is much more serious than what you're doing. 00:01:39.801 --> 00:01:40.241 No, that's 00:01:40.241 --> 00:01:40.501 Sam: true. 00:01:40.501 --> 00:01:41.011 Yeah, fair. 00:01:41.221 --> 00:01:41.431 Yeah. 00:01:41.431 --> 00:01:43.715 Ali: I don't know if you need to say that. 00:01:43.715 --> 00:01:47.267 Joe: Which is the problem with, which is kind of the problem, which is kind 00:01:47.267 --> 00:01:50.311 of the problem with identity politics because eventually we slice and dice. 00:01:51.321 --> 00:01:56.981 So finally, does Ali win, you know, with her not being a man and me being 00:01:56.981 --> 00:01:59.391 a straight man but having, you know... 00:01:59.581 --> 00:02:00.101 Sam: The family... 00:02:01.061 --> 00:02:01.411 Eventual illness. 00:02:01.551 --> 00:02:02.351 Yeah, that's right. 00:02:02.371 --> 00:02:04.231 No, look, it's a real horse race. 00:02:04.231 --> 00:02:06.511 It's a real horse race with you two, neck and neck. 00:02:06.701 --> 00:02:08.911 Joe: All identity politics is a complete dead end. 00:02:09.141 --> 00:02:10.061 Well, no, I... 00:02:10.511 --> 00:02:10.621 I 00:02:10.621 --> 00:02:12.251 Sam: think it actually 00:02:14.171 --> 00:02:17.821 Joe: leads into today's topic, so maybe we should read out 00:02:18.008 --> 00:02:20.908 our quote from Eckhart Tolle. 00:02:20.948 --> 00:02:21.138 Yeah, 00:02:21.138 --> 00:02:21.578 Sam: let's do it. 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:22.619 go on then, today on the show. 00:02:22.619 --> 00:02:23.478 Today 00:02:23.959 --> 00:02:27.169 Joe: on the show we have a quote from Eckhart Tolle from a book that 00:02:27.169 --> 00:02:29.239 I just re read called A New Earth. 00:02:29.934 --> 00:02:33.634 Eckhart wrote The Power of Now quite famously in the late 90s, which 00:02:33.684 --> 00:02:39.014 Oprah picked up and it became a spiritual, uh, super mega seller. 00:02:39.114 --> 00:02:39.834 Absolutely. 00:02:40.664 --> 00:02:42.534 Which I've read and re read quite a few times. 00:02:42.544 --> 00:02:44.424 This one's also very re readable. 00:02:44.484 --> 00:02:48.794 Eckhart himself is a weird, not very cool seeming guy. 00:02:48.794 --> 00:02:52.854 Not in a bad way, just a slightly creepy vibe about him. 00:02:53.299 --> 00:02:54.949 But his books are amazing. 00:02:55.102 --> 00:02:59.248 distilling of spiritual concepts that, are easy to come at. 00:02:59.838 --> 00:03:00.308 Sam: I agree. 00:03:00.328 --> 00:03:02.698 The opening of The Power of Now is incredible. 00:03:02.738 --> 00:03:03.618 It's really strong. 00:03:03.838 --> 00:03:05.858 It's a very arresting, it's well written chapter. 00:03:05.878 --> 00:03:09.828 It's just, it's, it belongs in the genre of like the addict's 00:03:09.868 --> 00:03:11.838 personal testimony, doesn't it? 00:03:11.948 --> 00:03:13.608 And it's got, it's got the rock bottom. 00:03:13.608 --> 00:03:16.368 It's got the, the witnessing, witnessing the miracle. 00:03:16.398 --> 00:03:20.829 Joe: He had a spiritual experience, like a white light moment where All 00:03:20.829 --> 00:03:26.399 his fear and anxiety just drained away and he was, yeah, standing 00:03:26.399 --> 00:03:27.599 in the sunlight of the spirit. 00:03:27.799 --> 00:03:27.969 It's 00:03:27.969 --> 00:03:31.591 Sam: a salvation, you know, and recovery from addiction narrative 00:03:31.591 --> 00:03:32.781 with a lot of the classic hallmarks. 00:03:32.961 --> 00:03:33.151 Well 00:03:33.151 --> 00:03:35.781 Joe: he wasn't an addict, but he was suicidal. 00:03:35.831 --> 00:03:38.151 He went from suicidal to spiritually enlightened. 00:03:38.211 --> 00:03:39.231 And he would say... 00:03:39.631 --> 00:03:43.151 Has stabilised his spiritual enlightenment, which is often the 00:03:43.151 --> 00:03:46.211 trick with a spiritual awakening is just can you stay in that state? 00:03:46.981 --> 00:03:50.511 And he would say stabilize it and now is worth a hundred 00:03:50.511 --> 00:03:51.611 million dollars or something. 00:03:51.661 --> 00:03:52.131 Sam: Well, that's right. 00:03:52.131 --> 00:03:55.551 And I was about to say I think it's one thing to recover from like a 00:03:55.551 --> 00:03:59.041 really difficult moment or It's a period in your life like that. 00:03:59.061 --> 00:04:01.481 And then it's quite another thing to achieve radical success 00:04:01.681 --> 00:04:04.301 in a short time and then start hanging out with the Illuminati. 00:04:04.301 --> 00:04:05.521 I mean, yeah, it's going to do things to you. 00:04:06.481 --> 00:04:06.791 All right. 00:04:06.791 --> 00:04:07.431 Joe: Should we do the quote? 00:04:07.431 --> 00:04:09.341 So the quote just needs to stand on its own, I think. 00:04:09.341 --> 00:04:09.591 It does. 00:04:09.591 --> 00:04:10.511 It Eckhart 00:04:10.641 --> 00:04:11.331 Sam: Tolle. 00:04:11.361 --> 00:04:11.841 Well, there you go. 00:04:11.841 --> 00:04:13.101 We got him out the way up front. 00:04:13.111 --> 00:04:14.151 So here's the quote. 00:04:15.021 --> 00:04:18.651 "A very common role is the one of victim and the form of attention 00:04:18.661 --> 00:04:23.181 it seeks is sympathy or pity or other's interest in my problems. 00:04:23.566 --> 00:04:24.926 Me and my story. 00:04:25.556 --> 00:04:29.196 Seeing oneself as a victim is an element in many egoic patterns 00:04:29.276 --> 00:04:32.466 such as complaining, being offended, outraged, and so on. 00:04:33.256 --> 00:04:37.336 Of course, once I am identified with a story in which I assigned myself the role 00:04:37.336 --> 00:04:41.646 of victim, I don't want it to end, and so, as every therapist knows, the ego 00:04:41.646 --> 00:04:45.258 does not want an end to its problems, because they are part of its identity." 00:04:46.058 --> 00:04:47.743 Ali: think that comes back. 00:04:48.373 --> 00:04:54.503 You know, just so much of not seeing, being, not feeling seen 00:04:54.513 --> 00:04:57.653 in childhood, not feeling heard. 00:04:58.083 --> 00:05:02.403 And perhaps the only times you were seen and heard were in fact, when 00:05:02.403 --> 00:05:05.593 you were being cared for or tended to perhaps when you were sick or something. 00:05:05.593 --> 00:05:11.333 And so, yeah, this, this pattern then, you know, of like reward for being, 00:05:11.543 --> 00:05:13.983 you know, the victim, like, you know, you were bullied at school and, "Oh, 00:05:13.983 --> 00:05:15.353 I'm so sorry that happened to you." 00:05:15.683 --> 00:05:18.783 And that was like a, It, it filled a void of something that should 00:05:18.783 --> 00:05:20.773 have actually already been filled. 00:05:20.773 --> 00:05:26.163 And so it then becomes this pattern of a pattern of behavior, like moving forward 00:05:26.163 --> 00:05:30.843 in your life where to, yeah, you, you, it's the, whether it's good attention 00:05:30.843 --> 00:05:32.173 or bad attention, it's still attention. 00:05:32.173 --> 00:05:35.563 And it's attention that you just wasn't given to you at a really important 00:05:35.563 --> 00:05:37.003 developmental time in your life. 00:05:37.173 --> 00:05:37.453 Sam: That's it. 00:05:37.513 --> 00:05:38.323 That's exactly right. 00:05:38.733 --> 00:05:39.633 I agree entirely. 00:05:39.903 --> 00:05:40.133 Yeah. 00:05:40.623 --> 00:05:44.443 Joe: Uh, identifying as a victim is a particularly toxic thing 00:05:44.443 --> 00:05:48.533 that swept through the culture in like the 2010s, I think, and has 00:05:48.533 --> 00:05:51.113 been very bad for people, I think. 00:05:51.693 --> 00:05:51.833 Sure. 00:05:52.063 --> 00:05:54.603 Because what he's talking about is broader, like Yes. 00:05:54.775 --> 00:05:57.225 Sam: Leaving aside identity, for example, I'm a victim because 00:05:57.235 --> 00:05:59.665 of this one thing that happened or this identity I belong to. 00:05:59.665 --> 00:06:02.205 Joe: No, but it's the way the ego reifies itself. 00:06:02.215 --> 00:06:03.365 So yes, that's what I'm saying. 00:06:03.515 --> 00:06:06.735 So what Eckhart agrees with me on is that I'm loving awareness. 00:06:06.835 --> 00:06:07.105 Yes. 00:06:07.135 --> 00:06:09.715 And the illusion is Joe, the separate individual. 00:06:09.755 --> 00:06:10.795 And the more that I. 00:06:10.886 --> 00:06:13.744 build up that illusion, the more I suffer. 00:06:14.224 --> 00:06:18.564 Now, I can, to, to define myself, if I'm not successful in my career, 00:06:18.564 --> 00:06:23.034 say, or, or in my family or whatever, then maybe all I have left to 00:06:23.034 --> 00:06:25.024 define myself is I'm a victim. 00:06:25.054 --> 00:06:25.474 That's right. 00:06:25.514 --> 00:06:25.784 Yeah. 00:06:26.134 --> 00:06:32.394 And so, he's talking about, yeah, how the ego, like, takes over us like a parasite. 00:06:32.434 --> 00:06:32.854 It does. 00:06:33.419 --> 00:06:38.119 And, but the victim, uh, identity is a particularly toxic one, and I think 00:06:38.119 --> 00:06:43.289 it's one that became very popular in the West in the last 10 or 15 years, and I 00:06:43.289 --> 00:06:48.760 think it's been, you know, deleterious to our culture, our politics, you know, 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:52.490 yeah, but then I could be accused of, what do they call it, victim blaming? 00:06:52.490 --> 00:06:52.670 Yeah, 00:06:52.670 --> 00:06:52.950 Ali: of course. 00:06:52.950 --> 00:06:56.100 Victim blaming or just not acknowledging your own privilege 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:58.780 of not actually experiencing those things that people do feel 00:06:58.930 --> 00:06:59.560 Sam: victims of. 00:06:59.560 --> 00:06:59.770 Yeah. 00:07:00.005 --> 00:07:03.885 Now of course, to be fair, Joe's got plenty of claims to that status himself 00:07:03.885 --> 00:07:08.325 and so that you're not in the, you're not coming at this quite from the 00:07:08.325 --> 00:07:11.245 point of view of the crusty boomer who's like everyone wants a medal now. 00:07:11.335 --> 00:07:11.545 Yeah. 00:07:11.645 --> 00:07:16.145 Like your perspective on it is no, no, no, I've been through the shit and you know, 00:07:16.425 --> 00:07:17.895 how many times you've been hospitalized? 00:07:17.905 --> 00:07:19.175 A couple. 00:07:19.255 --> 00:07:19.655 Yep. 00:07:19.945 --> 00:07:25.330 And You know, you've had, you had a pretty sticky wicket earlier. 00:07:25.380 --> 00:07:27.960 Like, there's a lot of things you could point to, but my, but 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:30.040 you're like, yeah, that's all true. 00:07:30.310 --> 00:07:33.890 And a lot of just, well, everyone else has at least one thing they can point to. 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:39.200 But what you're advocating is not living your life with that frame of reference. 00:07:39.690 --> 00:07:45.200 Joe: I'm advocating waking up from the illusion of being a separate self. 00:07:45.260 --> 00:07:45.620 Sure. 00:07:45.790 --> 00:07:46.850 Trapped in an ego. 00:07:47.555 --> 00:07:52.625 And, and being able to use your ego as a tool to navigate the world, 00:07:52.635 --> 00:07:56.895 to make a living and all that, but basically to rest in a loving awareness. 00:07:56.905 --> 00:07:57.515 That's right. 00:07:58.885 --> 00:08:01.825 So, a spiritual awakening is what I'm advocating. 00:08:01.835 --> 00:08:05.435 Sam: Yeah, the ego has instrumental purposes and needs to remain an instrument 00:08:05.465 --> 00:08:07.675 and not the driver of what's happening. 00:08:07.845 --> 00:08:10.855 Joe: And I think that's why I read and reread those books because 00:08:10.855 --> 00:08:12.905 it layers it into my system. 00:08:13.059 --> 00:08:16.589 The only path that I've found to liberation. 00:08:16.746 --> 00:08:21.146 Because as long as we're trapped in a purely egotistical material 00:08:21.146 --> 00:08:26.256 world, we will suffer because we miss, we, we misapprehend reality and 00:08:26.296 --> 00:08:29.456 we misapprehend who we are, who we are and what we're doing on earth. 00:08:29.496 --> 00:08:34.446 Ali: It's so, it's limiting, like it doesn't, it's limiting in that there's 00:08:34.646 --> 00:08:38.536 so many things we could be, but we're just limiting ourselves to these, to 00:08:38.536 --> 00:08:42.716 this really narrow frame of reference of, you know, of victim rather than, 00:08:43.126 --> 00:08:46.691 you know, yeah, you could just say you have, Whether it's trauma, diagnoses, 00:08:46.701 --> 00:08:49.861 you know, bad things that have happened, whatever they are and like multiple 00:08:49.871 --> 00:08:52.991 things that have affected you negatively. 00:08:53.001 --> 00:08:54.021 Sam: You've had a car accident. 00:08:54.371 --> 00:08:58.671 Ali: Like those things are horrible and have absolutely impacted you, you know, in 00:08:58.671 --> 00:09:00.101 the way that you move through the world. 00:09:00.786 --> 00:09:05.481 It is limiting to then just be, just defined purely by that rather than, yeah, 00:09:05.481 --> 00:09:08.861 like you're just a car accident victim rather than, you know, you're also a 00:09:08.861 --> 00:09:12.821 partner or, you know, you're a parent or, you know, this is what you do for work. 00:09:12.821 --> 00:09:16.191 Like there's so many other labels and things that make a whole person. 00:09:16.471 --> 00:09:19.811 And I think when you fall into the mentality of only focusing on the negative 00:09:19.811 --> 00:09:22.271 ones, yeah, you, yeah, it's, it's. 00:09:22.406 --> 00:09:23.046 It's, it is. 00:09:23.046 --> 00:09:23.746 It's limiting. 00:09:23.986 --> 00:09:24.086 Yeah. 00:09:24.456 --> 00:09:28.676 Sam: Or the ones that are like, perhaps we could even reframe them as like, you 00:09:28.676 --> 00:09:34.986 could be proud of what you've gotten past or what you've endured, let's say, maybe 00:09:34.986 --> 00:09:36.266 you haven't gotten past it entirely. 00:09:36.266 --> 00:09:36.486 Ali: Right. 00:09:36.516 --> 00:09:37.606 Which is, you know, yeah. 00:09:37.606 --> 00:09:37.786 Like 00:09:37.786 --> 00:09:39.126 everyone has certain barriers. 00:09:39.346 --> 00:09:39.426 Yeah. 00:09:39.426 --> 00:09:42.236 If you're able to either work with or around your barrier, you know, 00:09:42.236 --> 00:09:43.656 those things that everybody has. 00:09:43.800 --> 00:09:46.490 But yeah, like to just be defined by simply all the things 00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:47.560 that you've struggled with. 00:09:47.990 --> 00:09:49.540 I don't want to be defined by my struggle. 00:09:49.540 --> 00:09:49.990 Yeah, that's 00:09:49.990 --> 00:09:50.130 right. 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:50.770 Sam: Oh, that's right. 00:09:50.790 --> 00:09:51.890 Oh, you don't want to be, yeah, that's right. 00:09:51.890 --> 00:09:54.690 You don't want to only be, oh, you know, I recovered from 00:09:54.690 --> 00:09:55.970 this enormous setback in life. 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:57.370 It's like, well, okay, what else? 00:09:57.460 --> 00:09:57.660 Yeah. 00:09:57.660 --> 00:09:57.880 Yeah. 00:09:58.310 --> 00:10:00.710 Joe: I think, yeah, I think the trauma is the big one that people 00:10:00.710 --> 00:10:04.500 that turned into their identity in the last little while and trauma has 00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:09.260 been expanded to be this hugely much broader term for something that was 00:10:09.280 --> 00:10:11.950 like shell shock a hundred years ago. 00:10:12.020 --> 00:10:12.800 But now it's live. 00:10:12.800 --> 00:10:12.990 Yeah. 00:10:13.630 --> 00:10:16.830 Could be all kinds of things that I wouldn't consider trauma. 00:10:16.900 --> 00:10:17.270 Sam: Agreed. 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:21.830 Joe: And then, then the trauma becomes I'm the victim of this trauma and that's 00:10:21.830 --> 00:10:25.920 who I am and now I'm going to focus On this thing in the past, so not in 00:10:25.920 --> 00:10:27.420 the present where I'm living my life. 00:10:27.450 --> 00:10:33.790 This thing in the past will now define me and I like, so I would say that process 00:10:33.795 --> 00:10:37.480 trauma, if you're able to, as best as you possibly can, and then get on with life 00:10:37.485 --> 00:10:43.170 as best as you possibly can, you know, and don't make that your, your whole identity. 00:10:43.315 --> 00:10:46.800 Sam: Also, I wanna broaden this out a little bit into like getting 00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:48.600 away from, say you've been. 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.670 You know, the classical victim in the sense that like an event occurred, you 00:10:52.670 --> 00:10:58.270 know, act of God or vehicle accident or, you know, uh, intimate abuse of some 00:10:58.270 --> 00:11:02.950 kind or, you know, any neglect or any parental, you know, you saw something 00:11:02.950 --> 00:11:06.310 nasty in the woodshed, you know, cold comfort farm, Yeah, outside the classic 00:11:06.420 --> 00:11:11.040 victim stuff to like, let's say there's two, let's say there's two people, you 00:11:11.040 --> 00:11:16.050 know, workplace relationship or a intimate relationship or they're siblings or 00:11:16.050 --> 00:11:20.410 whatever, and so leaving aside identity or something particular happened to one 00:11:20.410 --> 00:11:25.460 party, there's just two people that are in an interaction over time and they 00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:30.670 often So it's a share house situation and everyone living under that roof believes 00:11:31.140 --> 00:11:34.560 that they've given more and gotten less than everybody else under that roof. 00:11:35.130 --> 00:11:38.610 So that's a classic manifestation or in a, you know, or in a intimate 00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:40.550 relationship with, you know, two people. 00:11:40.742 --> 00:11:43.042 One believes that they've... 00:11:43.372 --> 00:11:45.792 They've been the worse off out of the two. 00:11:45.792 --> 00:11:47.292 Yeah, like, it's what it is. 00:11:47.312 --> 00:11:48.142 Well, they both believe that. 00:11:48.182 --> 00:11:50.882 Ali: Yeah, they both believe that the things that they have contributed 00:11:50.892 --> 00:11:54.732 have not been appreciated, and then they're resentful of their partner for, 00:11:54.732 --> 00:11:55.032 Sam: yeah. 00:11:55.162 --> 00:11:58.252 And their suffering has been overlooked, or that their suffering 00:11:58.252 --> 00:12:00.052 is greater than the exactly, yeah. 00:12:00.172 --> 00:12:03.162 Joe: Or if you don't have anything dramatic, you could just say you're a 00:12:03.162 --> 00:12:08.952 victim of capitalism or a victim of the government, or pretty much anyone on earth 00:12:08.952 --> 00:12:10.472 could say they're a victim of something. 00:12:10.562 --> 00:12:12.982 Sam: Well, this is where I'll push back, though, because I think... 00:12:14.572 --> 00:12:18.492 The only place where we really disagree, or maybe it's not even a disagreement, 00:12:18.522 --> 00:12:22.842 is I do think that if someone is willing to say publicly that they're 00:12:22.842 --> 00:12:25.892 a victim, then something is wrong. 00:12:26.512 --> 00:12:31.092 So even if they're making it up in the classical sense of like, you know, they're 00:12:31.092 --> 00:12:37.702 pretending to have a disability or they're pretending to, uh, you know, uh, a sexual 00:12:37.702 --> 00:12:41.152 identity or something that, you know, they're a fraud on some level, right? 00:12:41.712 --> 00:12:42.792 But the fact that they're... 00:12:43.597 --> 00:12:47.998 They're seeking attention in this way and, they're shopping a story around on 00:12:47.998 --> 00:12:49.238 the talk shows and it never happened. 00:12:49.248 --> 00:12:51.398 This has happened over and over and over again. 00:12:52.198 --> 00:12:55.719 And you look at those people, and of course, people feel outraged when 00:12:55.719 --> 00:12:57.139 they realise they've been taken in. 00:12:57.209 --> 00:12:59.979 And they bought that person's book or they donated money or whatever 00:12:59.979 --> 00:13:01.259 it was, and then they feel... 00:13:01.430 --> 00:13:01.985 People get... 00:13:01.985 --> 00:13:05.855 Like really furious when that sort of thing is revealed. 00:13:06.295 --> 00:13:06.545 Yeah. 00:13:06.545 --> 00:13:07.375 The bell hooks thing. 00:13:07.375 --> 00:13:07.845 Yes. 00:13:07.875 --> 00:13:10.365 People absolutely would just... 00:13:10.535 --> 00:13:11.935 Clarice, uh, what's her name? 00:13:11.935 --> 00:13:13.375 Um, Patrice Couleurs. 00:13:13.479 --> 00:13:13.759 Yeah. 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:15.099 She was like a BLM campaigner. 00:13:15.099 --> 00:13:17.449 Ended up trousering a whole lot of money. 00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:18.289 Yeah. 00:13:18.459 --> 00:13:18.849 Bad. 00:13:19.389 --> 00:13:21.869 Ali: It's awful, but yeah, like it absolutely, it takes so much away 00:13:21.869 --> 00:13:26.079 from any, yeah, any sort of, like they're absolutely torn apart for it 00:13:26.079 --> 00:13:29.649 because it's like, it feels like a real betrayal to somebody who actually has. 00:13:30.189 --> 00:13:35.789 Experienced, you know, any sort of real, you know, um, experience of it. 00:13:35.789 --> 00:13:37.889 And it's just, it's horrible. 00:13:37.959 --> 00:13:42.209 It's horrifying seeing other people use things that yeah, have been 00:13:42.499 --> 00:13:47.409 deeply traumatizing just for financial gain or for notoriety or for any 00:13:47.929 --> 00:13:48.419 Sam: of those reasons. 00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:51.399 For the attention, for the pity, the compassion, the sympathy, the fame. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.429 And of course, uh, the money, uh, what was her name? 00:13:55.579 --> 00:13:58.079 Cancer, cookbook, and she didn't have cancer. 00:13:58.529 --> 00:13:59.059 Bell Hooks. 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:00.119 Oh yeah, sorry. 00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:01.099 Bell Gibson. 00:14:01.099 --> 00:14:01.899 Ali: Bell Gibson. 00:14:01.909 --> 00:14:01.989 That's it. 00:14:01.989 --> 00:14:02.138 That's it. 00:14:02.139 --> 00:14:04.059 Sorry, that's my um, that's my bad. 00:14:04.359 --> 00:14:04.959 I'm thinking of someone. 00:14:04.959 --> 00:14:05.189 Yeah. 00:14:05.409 --> 00:14:05.659 Yeah. 00:14:05.711 --> 00:14:06.481 Sam: Bell Gibson. 00:14:06.491 --> 00:14:06.881 That's right. 00:14:06.901 --> 00:14:07.661 Not Mel. 00:14:07.701 --> 00:14:08.241 Bell Gibson. 00:14:08.241 --> 00:14:08.781 Bell Gibson. 00:14:08.791 --> 00:14:10.261 One of the most bizarre stories. 00:14:10.271 --> 00:14:10.631 Yeah. 00:14:10.631 --> 00:14:10.711 She 00:14:10.711 --> 00:14:11.571 Ali: had brain cancer. 00:14:11.581 --> 00:14:12.721 Like that meme. 00:14:13.031 --> 00:14:16.491 Well, that reel constantly pops up on my Tik Tok of like where she's being 00:14:16.491 --> 00:14:19.741 interviewed and she's like, so you died twice on the operating table. 00:14:20.071 --> 00:14:22.871 You've had, you know, you've had brain cancer, you've, you've cured it with, 00:14:22.901 --> 00:14:27.881 you don't, you all like the, the list of things that she had was extraordinary. 00:14:27.921 --> 00:14:28.871 Like absolutely. 00:14:29.511 --> 00:14:30.471 Who would make this up? 00:14:30.611 --> 00:14:31.031 Yeah. 00:14:31.031 --> 00:14:32.831 Like it was, it was absolutely extraordinary. 00:14:32.831 --> 00:14:33.351 And like. 00:14:33.485 --> 00:14:36.525 Cause I remember seeing her cookbook at the time and like, and just looking at 00:14:36.525 --> 00:14:39.765 it and thinking, Oh, these look actually like half decent recipes and stuff, like, 00:14:39.765 --> 00:14:41.345 Sam: you know, but a bunch of raw food. 00:14:41.375 --> 00:14:41.495 Yeah. 00:14:41.755 --> 00:14:42.095 But like, 00:14:42.095 --> 00:14:44.755 Joe: imagine like, they're making a Netflix series about her at the moment. 00:14:44.965 --> 00:14:45.445 Awesome. 00:14:45.445 --> 00:14:46.085 Sam: You know, you've made it. 00:14:46.255 --> 00:14:46.455 Yeah. 00:14:46.455 --> 00:14:47.015 Anyway, go on. 00:14:47.675 --> 00:14:47.995 Sorry. 00:14:48.185 --> 00:14:48.255 I 00:14:48.255 --> 00:14:50.755 Ali: was going to say, but it's like a lot of those ones, like, um, inventing 00:14:50.775 --> 00:14:53.075 Anna and like, we love a fraud. 00:14:53.315 --> 00:14:53.635 Oh, we do. 00:14:54.005 --> 00:14:55.205 Well, Netflix loves a fraud. 00:14:55.925 --> 00:14:56.245 Yes. 00:14:56.515 --> 00:14:56.805 Sorry. 00:14:56.805 --> 00:14:58.035 And what's the other Tinder 00:14:58.365 --> 00:14:58.425 Sam: Swindler? 00:14:58.975 --> 00:14:59.225 Yeah. 00:14:59.225 --> 00:14:59.415 Yeah. 00:14:59.415 --> 00:15:00.025 The dating app. 00:15:01.515 --> 00:15:07.158 Joe: So, the instinct is, look at me, and in her case, give me lots of money. 00:15:07.692 --> 00:15:09.732 Now, the give me lots of money probably everyone can relate to, 00:15:09.732 --> 00:15:11.972 but the look at me is something 00:15:11.972 --> 00:15:12.312 Sam: that can be... 00:15:12.312 --> 00:15:15.732 The stolen valour really, really grinds people's gears the wrong way, 00:15:15.732 --> 00:15:17.082 but here's what I wanted to point to. 00:15:17.622 --> 00:15:21.522 It reminds me of when something is wrong with that person, let's all 00:15:21.522 --> 00:15:24.072 agree, and are they having a good time? 00:15:24.697 --> 00:15:27.247 So this is the thing, I think people walked away from the Belle Gibson thing, 00:15:27.337 --> 00:15:31.177 "that bitch, she took everyone's money, she gave people false hope, she might 00:15:31.177 --> 00:15:33.647 have even contributed to someone's death", you know, I mean, that's all 00:15:33.647 --> 00:15:37.055 true, and sure, begrudging the money and the stolen valour, definitely, 00:15:37.055 --> 00:15:39.385 but what's it like being that person? 00:15:39.385 --> 00:15:42.605 That's where I often end up, and it's an unpopular thing to ask about, 00:15:42.605 --> 00:15:44.815 like, and I'm not defending her for one second, but I'm just like... 00:15:45.255 --> 00:15:46.605 Do you think she's having a fun time? 00:15:46.605 --> 00:15:47.680 Like, I don't know 00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:50.655 Ali: at what po like to look at it from like Yeah. 00:15:50.985 --> 00:15:55.035 Objectively and think what has gone wrong or what has led her to think Yeah. 00:15:55.365 --> 00:15:57.195 That this is the answer to her problems. 00:15:57.225 --> 00:15:57.555 Yes. 00:15:57.585 --> 00:15:58.875 Sam: That's the question I always ask. 00:15:58.875 --> 00:16:01.065 Ali: What is, yeah, what has, what has led to that? 00:16:01.095 --> 00:16:02.175 It's that series of events. 00:16:02.205 --> 00:16:05.505 'cause it's such an ex, I mean her is such an extreme case of 00:16:05.625 --> 00:16:06.885 it really is of that, but, um, 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.235 Joe: but, but that's the point, isn't it? 00:16:09.050 --> 00:16:13.740 Eckhart's making, which is to have any egoic identity in charge. 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:14.040 Sam: That's what I'm saying. 00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:14.680 That's what I'm getting at. 00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:16.750 I think we're all, we all suffer is what I'm saying. 00:16:16.780 --> 00:16:17.270 But to have 00:16:17.310 --> 00:16:21.540 Joe: any in charge is, is a form of sickness. 00:16:23.300 --> 00:16:26.910 But what he's talking about is what most people operate on, 00:16:27.310 --> 00:16:29.250 which is, this is my identity. 00:16:29.690 --> 00:16:32.860 I'm over here, we said at the start about identity politics, I'm 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:34.550 over here and this is my identity. 00:16:34.910 --> 00:16:38.510 I'm Joe the straight white guy who wears tracksuits and has a mental 00:16:38.510 --> 00:16:42.000 illness and a recovering addict and I work in the film industry. 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.010 Now all of those things... 00:16:44.145 --> 00:16:49.215 Are completely irrelevant to who I actually am as consciousness or 00:16:49.395 --> 00:16:50.885 what I would call loving awareness. 00:16:50.915 --> 00:16:52.155 They're completely irrelevant. 00:16:52.175 --> 00:16:55.495 They are, they are on top of something that, that doesn't 00:16:55.495 --> 00:16:56.515 need anything on top of it. 00:16:56.575 --> 00:17:00.575 And all I need to do is rest in that awareness and look, I have to 00:17:00.575 --> 00:17:03.055 go out and function in the world and provide food and whatever. 00:17:03.095 --> 00:17:08.145 But basically whenever I, I reify that, those identities. 00:17:08.635 --> 00:17:13.735 I'm falling into a trap and that trap is what leads to a lot of unhappiness in the 00:17:13.735 --> 00:17:14.005 Ali: world. 00:17:14.225 --> 00:17:18.490 I think like falling back into, like, people falling into that trap 00:17:18.490 --> 00:17:21.750 of like what you say, it's so easy to gravitate towards falling into 00:17:21.750 --> 00:17:23.160 that trap of becoming the victim. 00:17:23.620 --> 00:17:24.690 There is a sense of... 00:17:25.235 --> 00:17:30.765 Familiarity in the known outcome, as in, I know when I say and, or do this 00:17:30.765 --> 00:17:34.785 or identify in this way, there is going to be some sort of perceived like 00:17:34.835 --> 00:17:37.385 attention or sympathy or whatever it is. 00:17:37.435 --> 00:17:43.055 yeah, feeling that need that, so it's a known entity rather than perhaps branch 00:17:43.265 --> 00:17:47.535 to proven strategy as a proven strategy is to, to courageously go out then. 00:17:47.830 --> 00:17:52.660 Free of labels and actually present your, you know, a big complex 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:54.640 nuanced version of yourself. 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:55.810 That's very real. 00:17:55.909 --> 00:18:00.179 The level of vulnerability that, that is required to do that would be, 00:18:00.289 --> 00:18:02.809 yeah, it would be, yeah, especially if there's any sort of trauma 00:18:02.809 --> 00:18:04.469 around that, you would be fearful. 00:18:04.479 --> 00:18:07.749 So I think that's why people are so quick to, you know, cause 00:18:07.749 --> 00:18:08.709 that's the way the brain works. 00:18:08.709 --> 00:18:10.949 It's once the easiest, most comfortable pathway. 00:18:11.169 --> 00:18:14.499 And so that's, like I said, it's a known pathway to go, the 00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:15.929 Sam: well worn path. 00:18:15.959 --> 00:18:16.509 It really 00:18:16.509 --> 00:18:16.759 Ali: is. 00:18:16.779 --> 00:18:18.779 So I think that's why people are so quick to. 00:18:21.454 --> 00:18:24.564 Sam: And let things die of neglect, you know, don't water the plant like 00:18:24.564 --> 00:18:26.054 that as we were talking about recently. 00:18:26.344 --> 00:18:26.814 What I would 00:18:26.814 --> 00:18:30.984 Joe: say is take response, radically take responsibility for everything you 00:18:30.984 --> 00:18:33.214 possibly can take responsibility for. 00:18:33.884 --> 00:18:38.493 And the only thing in my life that I'm not sure how much responsibility I have for. 00:18:38.644 --> 00:18:42.264 Is my bipolar because only because I don't know how much of that is genetic 00:18:42.264 --> 00:18:45.874 and I don't think science knows how much of that's genetic or biological. 00:18:45.924 --> 00:18:46.064 That's 00:18:46.064 --> 00:18:46.264 Sam: true. 00:18:46.294 --> 00:18:49.174 The gene, the gene of science has been very disappointing on mental illness. 00:18:49.714 --> 00:18:51.384 It's really come up with nothing this whole time. 00:18:51.394 --> 00:18:51.414 Yeah. 00:18:51.424 --> 00:18:51.684 It's a 00:18:51.684 --> 00:18:52.104 Joe: total myth. 00:18:52.134 --> 00:18:56.774 It's a bit of a black box, but everything else, like I need to look 00:18:56.784 --> 00:18:59.464 for what my part in the problem was. 00:18:59.474 --> 00:19:00.934 So every relationship. 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:05.149 Every, the state of my career, uh, how much money I do or don't 00:19:05.149 --> 00:19:08.859 get from the government, how much money I do or don't owe the taxman. 00:19:09.149 --> 00:19:12.029 All of that is my responsibility. 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.869 So that's the opposite of being a victim. 00:19:15.889 --> 00:19:19.449 But then there's also, I think something I've noticed with Ali and other people 00:19:19.449 --> 00:19:21.654 is you can have Over responsibility. 00:19:22.164 --> 00:19:24.114 And that's another way the ego builds itself up. 00:19:24.114 --> 00:19:25.744 It's like, I'll be responsible for all 00:19:25.744 --> 00:19:26.034 these 00:19:26.224 --> 00:19:26.394 Sam: people. 00:19:26.474 --> 00:19:27.914 Everything rests on my shoulders. 00:19:27.974 --> 00:19:29.294 I'm taking care of it. 00:19:30.124 --> 00:19:30.344 Ali: Yeah. 00:19:30.344 --> 00:19:32.254 That martyr sort of complex. 00:19:32.254 --> 00:19:36.904 I mean, I've watched, I think, like, I don't want to make generalizations 00:19:36.904 --> 00:19:40.004 here, but I've watched a lot of women, particularly older women and 00:19:40.004 --> 00:19:43.224 who the expectation really was that you had to do all these things. 00:19:43.574 --> 00:19:46.824 But then it also became like, well, it's the only thing I can 00:19:46.824 --> 00:19:48.004 complain about, so I'm going to 00:19:49.274 --> 00:19:49.744 Sam: weaponize 00:19:49.754 --> 00:19:49.784 Ali: it. 00:19:49.784 --> 00:19:50.984 Yeah, because it's all I have. 00:19:51.024 --> 00:19:52.014 That's all I have. 00:19:52.374 --> 00:19:54.084 And so I can see how they've fallen into that. 00:19:54.084 --> 00:19:56.214 But I've certainly witnessed, particularly a lot of older women, 00:19:56.214 --> 00:19:57.704 who've fallen into that martyr of... 00:19:58.264 --> 00:20:00.324 Yeah, I've done everything for you. 00:20:00.504 --> 00:20:01.964 I've had to do everything for you. 00:20:01.964 --> 00:20:03.563 And 00:20:03.564 --> 00:20:05.884 Sam: the impulse behind it isn't wrong at all. 00:20:05.884 --> 00:20:10.044 And this is what happens when you deny people a meaningful role outside of that. 00:20:10.394 --> 00:20:11.224 It's just what happens. 00:20:12.404 --> 00:20:15.784 Maybe Joe was almost willing to acknowledge this in a way by... 00:20:15.929 --> 00:20:20.109 sort of satirizing the, oh, we're all victims under capitalism, but like, okay. 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.789 You know, I think there's some trust, some truth in that. 00:20:22.789 --> 00:20:27.539 Joe: This is very crude terms, but I think the left has a lot of 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.219 people who have a victim mentality. 00:20:29.489 --> 00:20:34.379 And I think the right has people who have an over, like overly active 00:20:34.379 --> 00:20:37.179 sense of responsibility and want to be responsible for things which 00:20:37.179 --> 00:20:38.119 are none of their fucking business. 00:20:38.159 --> 00:20:40.009 Sam: Are we talking the traditional right here? 00:20:40.019 --> 00:20:41.779 Or are we talking the neo right? 00:20:42.524 --> 00:20:46.864 Look, we've got to sort this out because the defining character of Marga and 00:20:46.864 --> 00:20:50.244 Christian nationalism and Christian identity is also being a victim. 00:20:50.954 --> 00:20:52.554 It's the defining feature, man. 00:20:52.554 --> 00:20:53.053 Yeah. 00:20:53.054 --> 00:20:53.684 Yeah. 00:20:54.194 --> 00:20:54.764 White people. 00:20:54.764 --> 00:20:55.314 You can see what I'm talking about. 00:20:55.314 --> 00:20:55.759 They're a 00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:58.364 Ali: victim of big government and a victim of the woke left. 00:20:58.414 --> 00:20:58.734 White people are 00:20:58.974 --> 00:20:59.634 Sam: being robbed. 00:20:59.664 --> 00:21:01.844 Like they downsized the food packaging. 00:21:01.844 --> 00:21:02.544 It's the woke. 00:21:02.814 --> 00:21:02.964 So 00:21:02.974 --> 00:21:04.854 Joe: no one's being over responsible then? 00:21:05.284 --> 00:21:06.824 Sam: Everyone wants to take their hands off the wheel. 00:21:06.834 --> 00:21:07.464 Everyone. 00:21:07.774 --> 00:21:09.924 Look, look, like the billionaires are all like, oh no. 00:21:10.919 --> 00:21:15.049 It wasn't me, I can't, what, uh, I'm just in my bunker if anyone needs me. 00:21:15.099 --> 00:21:16.229 I can't sort this out. 00:21:17.229 --> 00:21:17.919 I didn't make this. 00:21:18.489 --> 00:21:20.219 Everyone's wildly disavowing. 00:21:20.309 --> 00:21:21.019 Everywhere you look. 00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:23.439 Joe: Do you know what I mean though about the right wanting to be 00:21:23.439 --> 00:21:27.389 controlling of other people's, say, reproductive rights or whatever? 00:21:27.389 --> 00:21:33.009 It's an over responsibility for like, oh, I'll take care of that and control 00:21:33.009 --> 00:21:33.309 Sam: that. 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:34.429 If you want, yeah, no, I agree. 00:21:34.429 --> 00:21:34.659 It's a 00:21:34.659 --> 00:21:35.249 Ali: fucked up... 00:21:35.549 --> 00:21:39.189 But then like the traditional right or the libertarian right would very much be... 00:21:39.219 --> 00:21:39.469 No. 00:21:39.719 --> 00:21:41.289 Like, would not want to bar of 00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:41.539 Sam: that. 00:21:41.539 --> 00:21:42.089 Absolutely not. 00:21:42.334 --> 00:21:43.384 Big government out. 00:21:43.384 --> 00:21:43.733 Ali: Yeah. 00:21:43.734 --> 00:21:44.424 No big government. 00:21:44.434 --> 00:21:46.374 No one telling you what to do with your body or anything, 00:21:46.384 --> 00:21:46.904 Sam: or, yeah. 00:21:46.904 --> 00:21:47.344 That's right. 00:21:47.744 --> 00:21:49.264 And no one telling you what to do with your workers. 00:21:49.414 --> 00:21:49.814 Yeah. 00:21:49.814 --> 00:21:50.114 Ali: Yeah. 00:21:50.114 --> 00:21:50.563 Exactly. 00:21:50.564 --> 00:21:50.854 Yeah. 00:21:50.854 --> 00:21:51.034 That's right. 00:21:51.064 --> 00:21:52.634 Your roads or healthcare or anything. 00:21:53.404 --> 00:21:54.140 You're on your own. 00:21:54.140 --> 00:21:54.497 That's right. 00:21:54.497 --> 00:21:54.853 Good luck. 00:21:54.854 --> 00:21:55.014 Yeah. 00:21:55.484 --> 00:21:58.334 Joe: I think the world would be a much healthier place if everyone had 00:21:58.334 --> 00:22:00.034 a healthy sense of responsibility. 00:22:00.044 --> 00:22:00.494 Agreed. 00:22:00.924 --> 00:22:02.424 For the planet and for everything else. 00:22:02.704 --> 00:22:05.454 Sam: There is a version of small C conservatism which goes... 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:08.789 You know, somewhat along the lines of what you're thinking. 00:22:08.903 --> 00:22:11.453 I don't know, I don't think there's many of these people left where they're 00:22:11.453 --> 00:22:14.943 like, uh, I have my obligations as a... 00:22:16.123 --> 00:22:19.023 You know, a business person, and a pillar of the community, and 00:22:19.023 --> 00:22:22.293 da da da, and as a church member, I have these responsibilities. 00:22:22.903 --> 00:22:24.123 That's not what we're hearing now. 00:22:24.333 --> 00:22:26.033 I mean, those people are still around, but they tend to be 00:22:26.033 --> 00:22:27.323 a little bit quieter, maybe. 00:22:27.533 --> 00:22:31.743 Um, those proper conservatives, God bless them, if there's any out there, like, tip 00:22:31.743 --> 00:22:32.083 Joe: of the hat. 00:22:32.083 --> 00:22:35.143 Well, your man, Jordan Peterson, who I always have to make the disclaimer, 00:22:35.143 --> 00:22:35.841 I'm not a Jordan Peterson pro. 00:22:35.841 --> 00:22:37.133 Sam: He's a reactionary now, no. 00:22:37.513 --> 00:22:37.923 But, 00:22:38.433 --> 00:22:42.648 Joe: he was the first person I ever heard say, What you need to do is take 00:22:42.648 --> 00:22:44.428 on as much responsibility as you can. 00:22:44.778 --> 00:22:45.178 He's the biggest 00:22:45.178 --> 00:22:45.808 Ali: victim now. 00:22:45.968 --> 00:22:47.348 He's a victim of feminism. 00:22:47.348 --> 00:22:48.168 Sure, but 00:22:48.728 --> 00:22:49.398 Sam: what he's saying... 00:22:49.488 --> 00:22:52.438 Someone told me I have to find this larger woman attractive. 00:22:53.238 --> 00:22:54.548 Joe: But what he's saying to younger men... 00:22:54.548 --> 00:22:56.058 Oh my god, dude, he's a tissue. 00:22:56.068 --> 00:22:59.338 What he's saying to younger men that's really healthy is take on 00:22:59.338 --> 00:23:01.138 as much responsibility as you can. 00:23:01.158 --> 00:23:01.488 No, but he 00:23:01.488 --> 00:23:03.658 Sam: stopped saying that a long time ago and now it's everyone else's fault. 00:23:03.658 --> 00:23:04.018 No, no, but 00:23:04.018 --> 00:23:06.128 Joe: you guys are getting distracted by the celebrity of Jordan Peterson. 00:23:06.128 --> 00:23:07.338 I'm talking about... 00:23:08.083 --> 00:23:12.743 The really wise message that he, that I heard and I was like, I hadn't heard that. 00:23:12.743 --> 00:23:12.853 I 00:23:13.143 --> 00:23:13.333 Sam: agree. 00:23:13.363 --> 00:23:16.931 There were some people that liked him early on and it was the 00:23:16.931 --> 00:23:17.777 Joe: individual responsibility message. 00:23:17.777 --> 00:23:21.161 With my progressive left wing upbringing, I wasn't told, take on as 00:23:21.161 --> 00:23:24.823 much responsibility as you can handle and see what happens to your life. 00:23:24.823 --> 00:23:27.643 And then I look around and I see the people that have done that that 00:23:27.643 --> 00:23:28.953 aren't me, because I didn't do that. 00:23:28.953 --> 00:23:29.373 Okay, sure. 00:23:29.403 --> 00:23:30.663 And they're really successful. 00:23:30.763 --> 00:23:31.463 Okay, alright. 00:23:31.743 --> 00:23:35.443 And they're my peers, but they've taken on more responsibility and been willing to... 00:23:35.673 --> 00:23:38.893 Take on more stress and pressure at work, for example, than I 00:23:38.903 --> 00:23:42.683 have been and, you know, that they've had more successful life. 00:23:42.723 --> 00:23:43.773 I think it's good advice, 00:23:44.143 --> 00:23:48.493 Ali: but similarly growing up in an environment where very, where people 00:23:48.493 --> 00:23:52.013 were very much pushed academically or business wise and take on all that. 00:23:52.023 --> 00:23:55.793 I've seen a lot of people get very burnt out living that kind 00:23:55.793 --> 00:23:59.553 of, that, that responsibility of what they're expected to do. 00:23:59.803 --> 00:24:00.963 Maximizing constantly. 00:24:00.983 --> 00:24:01.223 Yeah. 00:24:01.223 --> 00:24:03.693 It's like to better yourself, like not just to keep up 00:24:03.693 --> 00:24:04.773 with the Joneses, but like. 00:24:04.848 --> 00:24:06.218 You could be doing better in your career. 00:24:06.218 --> 00:24:09.348 You could be doing better in, you know, with your family and bigger house, bigger 00:24:09.568 --> 00:24:12.348 everything, and it was never enough. 00:24:12.348 --> 00:24:14.968 And so it's a constant, it's a goal. 00:24:15.028 --> 00:24:16.678 The goalposts keep shifting. 00:24:16.678 --> 00:24:17.258 So it's, uh, 00:24:17.258 --> 00:24:19.768 Joe: so yeah, so what I, so what I 00:24:19.768 --> 00:24:21.398 Sam: saw was perhaps the same with victim. 00:24:22.183 --> 00:24:26.303 The victim frontier is ever receding and I guess so is the illusion of like 00:24:26.323 --> 00:24:27.883 taking charge and being in control. 00:24:27.883 --> 00:24:30.813 I think both of those things are ultimately illusions and fantasies 00:24:30.833 --> 00:24:31.833 to return to the terminology. 00:24:32.033 --> 00:24:34.563 Joe: Yeah, but I'm not talking about being in control. 00:24:34.563 --> 00:24:38.253 I'm talking about being healthily responsible, which was 00:24:38.293 --> 00:24:42.653 something that I, I, you know, didn't learn until I got sober. 00:24:43.483 --> 00:24:46.903 And I had to make that responsible decision day after day to not pick up 00:24:46.903 --> 00:24:51.173 a drink and then other responsibilities suddenly seemed appealing when I'd been 00:24:51.173 --> 00:24:57.143 brought up with a laissez faire, do what you feel, just be, kind of attitude. 00:24:57.173 --> 00:25:01.705 Unlike your upbringing, Ali, I wasn't, I wasn't, you gotta understand, you gotta 00:25:01.705 --> 00:25:05.883 understand, I was never, it was never taught to me that there was anything 00:25:06.298 --> 00:25:09.048 Uh, valorous in making money at all. 00:25:09.048 --> 00:25:10.878 In fact, it was a little bit shameful money. 00:25:10.878 --> 00:25:11.588 It was a bit gross. 00:25:11.658 --> 00:25:12.248 Oh, but wait a minute. 00:25:12.248 --> 00:25:12.428 No, no, 00:25:12.428 --> 00:25:14.678 Sam: no, but your parents were acting in solidarity with people 00:25:14.688 --> 00:25:16.198 that were asking for more money. 00:25:16.276 --> 00:25:16.776 What do you mean? 00:25:16.776 --> 00:25:17.896 From their employment. 00:25:18.306 --> 00:25:19.046 Joe: Trade unions? 00:25:19.076 --> 00:25:20.226 Yeah, yeah, sure. 00:25:20.226 --> 00:25:24.396 But, like, the idea that being successful in business, like, that 00:25:24.396 --> 00:25:26.276 was just, like, the lamest thing ever. 00:25:26.466 --> 00:25:26.776 Yeah. 00:25:26.906 --> 00:25:29.856 Let alone trying to keep up with the Joneses, like, who cares? 00:25:30.266 --> 00:25:32.556 Sam: Australia wasn't all that entrepreneurial back then, though. 00:25:32.606 --> 00:25:33.406 Let's keep that in mind. 00:25:33.426 --> 00:25:33.646 No, 00:25:33.646 --> 00:25:36.556 Ali: yeah, I was going to say, and my dad was probably the exception to the rule in 00:25:36.636 --> 00:25:37.946 very much being, like, an entrepreneur. 00:25:38.106 --> 00:25:42.974 But, I think, like, coming back to the quote and having Like where I agree 00:25:42.974 --> 00:25:46.134 with you, Joe, that, yeah, we should have a healthy sense of responsibility. 00:25:46.134 --> 00:25:49.894 The message needs to be in healthy and at being a balance. 00:25:49.894 --> 00:25:55.304 Because I think if you completely ignore, you know, any sort of trauma 00:25:55.314 --> 00:25:58.544 victim, you know, any sort of mindset like that, you completely don't 00:25:58.554 --> 00:26:00.574 acknowledge any sort of impact on it. 00:26:00.634 --> 00:26:03.634 One, you're either just not processing it and not working through it and it's 00:26:03.634 --> 00:26:05.944 just becoming a problem in and of itself. 00:26:05.984 --> 00:26:06.714 That's a problem. 00:26:06.764 --> 00:26:07.194 That's right. 00:26:07.234 --> 00:26:08.134 But I think. 00:26:08.679 --> 00:26:12.639 You know, you could, if you could use it in a way that like, yeah, as a 00:26:12.639 --> 00:26:15.689 measure of your success, like, okay, this has happened, but I have been able 00:26:15.689 --> 00:26:18.299 to, yeah, overcome this barrier, I've been able to work through this, or I 00:26:18.299 --> 00:26:19.939 can work with this, or whatever it is. 00:26:20.674 --> 00:26:24.624 I think that is a healthy way of actually viewing any sort of perceived 00:26:25.084 --> 00:26:29.904 victimhood where and similarly with your sense of responsibility, it should 00:26:29.904 --> 00:26:31.724 be within a healthy and measured way. 00:26:31.774 --> 00:26:33.674 I think there really needs to be a balance. 00:26:33.674 --> 00:26:36.644 I think if it's all one or all the other, like I think if you're 00:26:36.644 --> 00:26:38.754 completely letting go of it. 00:26:39.134 --> 00:26:39.334 Yeah. 00:26:39.944 --> 00:26:41.304 I think that also does you a 00:26:41.304 --> 00:26:42.114 Sam: disservice. 00:26:42.121 --> 00:26:45.379 often the thing that we're, that people will struggle to admit 00:26:45.449 --> 00:26:47.249 is wrongdoing done to them. 00:26:47.329 --> 00:26:51.049 Strange as that may sound, well, there are, there are, there are 00:26:51.139 --> 00:26:52.639 safe ones for them to talk about. 00:26:52.659 --> 00:26:54.309 And then the real one they don't talk about. 00:26:54.689 --> 00:26:56.589 We've shared about this a little bit, us three. 00:26:56.869 --> 00:26:59.529 And then the other thing we often struggle to admit. 00:27:00.124 --> 00:27:04.754 We'll admit to the small sins, but we'll really struggle to own up to the, the, the 00:27:04.754 --> 00:27:06.584 things we're really the most ashamed of. 00:27:07.074 --> 00:27:10.484 And so in the therapeutic process, like you're getting as close 00:27:10.484 --> 00:27:12.014 to the bone as possible, right? 00:27:12.124 --> 00:27:15.336 And then you have to kind of integrate the things that have happened to you. 00:27:15.416 --> 00:27:17.396 You have to integrate them and the things you've done, you have 00:27:17.396 --> 00:27:19.196 to integrate them and by dwell. 00:27:19.196 --> 00:27:21.836 And then, you know, you, so you have this new picture of the self 00:27:21.836 --> 00:27:23.386 that's emerging every, every moment. 00:27:23.386 --> 00:27:23.696 Right. 00:27:24.196 --> 00:27:24.546 And. 00:27:24.866 --> 00:27:26.806 Well, hopefully it's moving. 00:27:26.826 --> 00:27:29.316 Hopefully that picture is changing in a good way. 00:27:30.026 --> 00:27:33.486 And so you might have to kind of take on the victim label temporarily. 00:27:34.296 --> 00:27:36.226 And that's a stopping 00:27:36.226 --> 00:27:36.476 Joe: place. 00:27:36.726 --> 00:27:40.766 Did you read out the rest of the quote about how therapists know that 00:27:41.876 --> 00:27:43.006 people don't actually want their 00:27:43.286 --> 00:27:43.516 Sam: problem solved? 00:27:43.526 --> 00:27:45.526 Well, yeah, no, that's what I was getting to, right? 00:27:45.526 --> 00:27:46.676 I think you stopped before that bit. 00:27:46.736 --> 00:27:48.766 No, no, I got to it because, uh... 00:27:49.001 --> 00:27:51.981 So, as every therapist knows, the ego does not want an end to its problems 00:27:51.981 --> 00:27:53.361 because they are part of its identity. 00:27:53.881 --> 00:27:57.641 Okay, so some therapists would actually take issue with that, but I think 00:27:57.641 --> 00:27:58.901 a lot would agree in broad terms. 00:27:59.471 --> 00:28:00.751 So, I... 00:28:00.761 --> 00:28:01.001 So, this 00:28:01.001 --> 00:28:02.511 Joe: is the problem with therapy, isn't it? 00:28:02.531 --> 00:28:05.091 Which is, there has no end point. 00:28:05.631 --> 00:28:06.021 Because... 00:28:06.021 --> 00:28:09.501 But partly because of this victim mentality. 00:28:09.601 --> 00:28:10.241 Ordinary human 00:28:10.271 --> 00:28:13.431 Sam: unhappiness and coming to a balanced view of the self as being... 00:28:13.931 --> 00:28:18.021 Responsible to the self and to others, and also that, you know, things were 00:28:18.021 --> 00:28:19.561 done and you have sinned against. 00:28:19.631 --> 00:28:21.891 I think it's accepting all of that and yeah. 00:28:22.911 --> 00:28:25.641 Ali: I think, and we've talked about this before on the show, like 00:28:25.761 --> 00:28:29.691 a good therapist will be working to make themselves redundant. 00:28:29.751 --> 00:28:30.141 Yes. 00:28:30.171 --> 00:28:33.811 So the whole point is at this point in your life, I'm teaching you. 00:28:34.081 --> 00:28:37.571 Giving you the tools to work through whatever it is you need to work through 00:28:37.971 --> 00:28:41.191 But hopefully you will get to a point where You will be able to on the whole 00:28:41.211 --> 00:28:43.541 manage this by yourself and yeah sure things might come up and you might want 00:28:43.541 --> 00:28:46.611 to come Back, but for the most part, it's actually setting you up to be 00:28:46.611 --> 00:28:48.171 able to live your life Like they don't 00:28:48.211 --> 00:28:51.611 Joe: Sam said in the last episode about yeah, the patient must 00:28:51.661 --> 00:28:55.121 devise their own medicine and re administer it Yes, that's right. 00:28:55.141 --> 00:28:59.116 But I think what he's saying is if What Eckhart's saying is if you have 00:28:59.116 --> 00:29:02.646 a victim mentality, there will never be an end to your therapy, because 00:29:02.656 --> 00:29:03.086 Sam: you'll just... 00:29:03.446 --> 00:29:04.356 It won't progress at all. 00:29:04.546 --> 00:29:04.866 Yeah. 00:29:05.266 --> 00:29:05.566 No, no. 00:29:05.876 --> 00:29:06.296 A hundred percent. 00:29:06.306 --> 00:29:09.606 You probably won't even get to first base in therapy if you can't 00:29:10.336 --> 00:29:11.836 contextualize it in some way. 00:29:12.066 --> 00:29:15.456 Some, what some people struggle to do, even though, is admit to being a victim. 00:29:16.141 --> 00:29:17.851 It's strange enough to say, but 00:29:18.921 --> 00:29:23.441 Ali: particularly with some things, there's so much shame and guilt that 00:29:23.451 --> 00:29:27.884 surrounds the event, whether it's of your own, you know, whether it's something 00:29:27.884 --> 00:29:30.674 you did or not, or something happened to you, there can be so much guilt and 00:29:30.674 --> 00:29:35.324 shame associated with those feelings that is really hard to speak about. 00:29:35.574 --> 00:29:37.834 And that's just why a lot of those things, you know, people. 00:29:38.304 --> 00:29:41.264 I mean, historically would never have even shared diagnoses or things that were, 00:29:41.504 --> 00:29:45.064 you know, or because you don't want to be seen as less than or even if, yeah, like 00:29:45.064 --> 00:29:48.374 weakness and moral, moral failure, moral failure, or even if, yeah, if you were 00:29:48.384 --> 00:29:51.864 a victim of, yeah, a crime or something like that, it's like some, I should have 00:29:51.864 --> 00:29:55.364 done this differently, I should have done this, you know, so yeah, like I 00:29:55.374 --> 00:29:57.434 shouldn't have been walking out at night, I shouldn't have been left alone with 00:29:57.434 --> 00:30:01.554 this person, whatever it is, like you, you, you overanalyze every sort of choice, 00:30:02.139 --> 00:30:05.159 Potential choice you think you had in that situation, regardless of whether there 00:30:05.179 --> 00:30:06.929 was actually any choice in it at all. 00:30:07.249 --> 00:30:10.179 And most of the time, you know, if you are a victim that there was no 00:30:10.179 --> 00:30:11.639 choice, like that was what happened. 00:30:12.059 --> 00:30:15.399 But yeah, the way we still see it and have to move through and 00:30:15.399 --> 00:30:18.799 process it, you, you do go over, what could I have done differently 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:19.889 to have had a different outcome? 00:30:19.939 --> 00:30:21.969 I think that's a natural part of analyzing and pulling 00:30:21.969 --> 00:30:22.359 Sam: apart. 00:30:22.369 --> 00:30:25.389 You have to move through that part and it is painful, but yeah, I agree 00:30:25.389 --> 00:30:26.589 with you that that resonates a lot. 00:30:27.314 --> 00:30:31.614 It, the clue I was going to try and, you know, offer just a little one piece of 00:30:31.734 --> 00:30:34.844 insight that I've got maybe about where to look if this is ringing a bell with 00:30:34.844 --> 00:30:38.704 anyone is like, look for those things where you are trying to explain it to 00:30:38.704 --> 00:30:41.924 yourself or like trying to figure out what you should have done differently. 00:30:42.004 --> 00:30:43.454 That's a clue to an area 00:30:43.694 --> 00:30:47.964 Joe: of thinking what I should have done differently about my most recent trauma. 00:30:48.348 --> 00:30:52.598 But, I would say that I've never let it become my full identity. 00:30:52.708 --> 00:30:53.358 Yeah, alright. 00:30:53.428 --> 00:30:53.828 Sam: Sure. 00:30:53.928 --> 00:30:56.128 Well, I think you've had a lot of other stuff to chew on along 00:30:56.128 --> 00:30:57.188 the way that you've held on 00:30:57.188 --> 00:30:57.258 Joe: to. 00:30:57.258 --> 00:31:02.648 But I was plagued with obsessive thoughts about some incidents and then a lot of 00:31:02.648 --> 00:31:05.648 like thinking back over, if I had done that differently then I never would 00:31:05.648 --> 00:31:07.228 have been in that room or whatever. 00:31:07.308 --> 00:31:08.018 Yeah, that's right. 00:31:08.018 --> 00:31:10.755 That's probably true. 00:31:10.755 --> 00:31:13.283 But, yeah, it's undoubtedly true that... 00:31:13.493 --> 00:31:16.023 Things could have been different, but that's the point about the past. 00:31:16.253 --> 00:31:17.653 It's never going to change. 00:31:18.083 --> 00:31:22.603 So it's about coming into the present and maybe leaning slightly into the future. 00:31:22.603 --> 00:31:26.673 And Eckhart would say, and I agree with him, radically coming 00:31:26.673 --> 00:31:28.223 into the present, like really... 00:31:28.668 --> 00:31:32.658 Just like Ram Dass said, just be here now, or as Eckhart said, the power of now. 00:31:33.268 --> 00:31:37.428 But I was fortunate that I was able to talk about what had happened to 00:31:37.428 --> 00:31:39.178 me with friends and a therapist. 00:31:39.738 --> 00:31:41.748 So I'm not saying don't process trauma. 00:31:41.758 --> 00:31:48.698 I'm saying don't let a trauma define you or become integral to your identity. 00:31:48.698 --> 00:31:51.178 Yeah, I would say that. 00:31:51.458 --> 00:31:57.093 Now the irony is after those traumatic events I did feel some 00:31:57.093 --> 00:32:00.233 need to build a new egoic identity. 00:32:00.523 --> 00:32:03.713 So suddenly I went out and like bought bright tracksuits and 00:32:03.713 --> 00:32:08.293 started like posting photos on social media and wanting attention. 00:32:08.783 --> 00:32:11.433 And it was a, it was like a trauma response. 00:32:11.433 --> 00:32:12.933 It was like, I'm still here. 00:32:12.953 --> 00:32:15.973 In fact, I'm like louder and brighter and bigger than ever. 00:32:16.663 --> 00:32:21.783 So it was like a way of puffing myself up, which is all fine, but if I never stop and 00:32:21.783 --> 00:32:28.693 then rest in that awareness, then I'm, I'm cheating myself of my brief experience of 00:32:28.733 --> 00:32:34.713 consciousness, like I'm cheating myself of what I've found to be the most profound. 00:32:35.283 --> 00:32:39.303 Experience of reality that I've found, you know, if all I am is a 00:32:39.303 --> 00:32:43.603 guy in a bright track suit with a podcast, that's all ego stuff, right? 00:32:43.603 --> 00:32:44.343 Yeah, that's true. 00:32:44.393 --> 00:32:47.573 Ali: Like, but I think it's, it's, it's not a part to be completely 00:32:47.573 --> 00:32:51.343 ignored or minimized as part of the process of getting through that trauma. 00:32:51.363 --> 00:32:55.388 I think, and when you then come to the other side of it, that will be a hot. 00:32:55.678 --> 00:33:00.228 One piece of the puzzle and it'll feel yeah that I needed to go through that 00:33:00.268 --> 00:33:03.798 as a response to what happened Yeah, in order to actually let go of it. 00:33:04.098 --> 00:33:05.308 It's you know, it's not 00:33:05.388 --> 00:33:09.038 Sam: linear So don't make the mistake of going, you know, Joe's right. 00:33:09.428 --> 00:33:10.038 Oh god. 00:33:10.038 --> 00:33:11.168 Oh god. 00:33:11.168 --> 00:33:15.164 What a pathetic Self, pitying victim I've been this whole time. 00:33:15.164 --> 00:33:15.884 Yeah, Joe's right. 00:33:15.884 --> 00:33:17.934 I really, God, the amount of time I've wasted on this. 00:33:18.124 --> 00:33:21.274 Don't make the mistake of like now feeling guilty about that. 00:33:21.284 --> 00:33:23.754 It's just go, okay, that's what it had to be. 00:33:23.784 --> 00:33:24.094 Yeah. 00:33:24.374 --> 00:33:27.354 And now, cause I mean, I've wasted time on it too, but I 00:33:27.354 --> 00:33:28.354 should have said this upfront. 00:33:28.394 --> 00:33:32.134 Like this, the reason this quote resonates for me is God, I mean, yes, I've done 00:33:32.134 --> 00:33:36.064 an awful lot of that and it, yeah, it gets in the way of good stuff, gets 00:33:36.064 --> 00:33:37.804 in the way of owning up to what you. 00:33:38.284 --> 00:33:41.424 Have done to other people in, in fact, I think a lot of the time, 00:33:41.424 --> 00:33:45.304 the purpose of clinging to it is to ignore or rationalize what 00:33:45.464 --> 00:33:46.144 Ali: you've done to other people. 00:33:46.144 --> 00:33:47.924 Yeah, to rationalize the shitty behavior. 00:33:47.924 --> 00:33:51.474 Well, I, I responded this way because I was traumatized myself. 00:33:51.494 --> 00:33:51.804 That's it. 00:33:51.804 --> 00:33:53.264 And it completely absolving itself of... 00:33:53.264 --> 00:33:55.287 It's okay for me to keep acting this way because of... 00:33:55.287 --> 00:33:56.344 Yeah, which is, yeah, horrible. 00:33:56.354 --> 00:33:57.224 No, stop doing that. 00:33:57.224 --> 00:33:58.079 That's how it uses me. 00:33:58.529 --> 00:33:58.889 Perpetrate. 00:33:59.369 --> 00:34:01.509 Well, yeah, well, people who have been abused have perpetrated abuse. 00:34:01.569 --> 00:34:02.089 Sam: Exactly. 00:34:02.109 --> 00:34:05.979 And I firmly believe that all bullies begin as victims and vice versa. 00:34:06.209 --> 00:34:10.949 And like, like there's, that's why Joe is, there's an inescapable kind of 00:34:11.009 --> 00:34:14.139 truth to what you're saying, which is at some point the buck stops with me. 00:34:14.179 --> 00:34:16.899 Like you do, you have to get there at some point, but like 00:34:16.899 --> 00:34:18.119 you do, but Ali's also right. 00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:21.319 You have to move through all these phases to get there and 00:34:21.319 --> 00:34:22.259 like, have that awareness. 00:34:24.179 --> 00:34:25.709 You know, maybe I could have done this faster. 00:34:25.709 --> 00:34:26.589 Maybe I couldn't have. 00:34:27.399 --> 00:34:31.839 I've talked before about like the grief I felt at every stage of advancement 00:34:31.859 --> 00:34:37.889 in therapy, simply because, oh, well, finally, I've made this thing better. 00:34:38.749 --> 00:34:42.319 Oh, no, I could have and should have done this sooner. 00:34:43.744 --> 00:34:47.784 Look at what has been lost in me not doing this sooner. 00:34:48.574 --> 00:34:49.224 There's a, there's a 00:34:49.234 --> 00:34:53.894 Ali: grief for, yeah, lost time or, you know, what could have been. 00:34:53.894 --> 00:34:58.444 And I've, I've really experienced a lot of that, like going through therapy in 00:34:58.444 --> 00:35:02.094 that it's like, ah, if I hadn't, God, I would have, it's, yeah, it's like 00:35:02.094 --> 00:35:06.694 the loss of an imagined future you had for yourself that 20 years ago, things 00:35:06.694 --> 00:35:08.044 would have been so different for me. 00:35:08.624 --> 00:35:09.474 It's not how it works. 00:35:09.514 --> 00:35:09.914 And, and 00:35:09.914 --> 00:35:12.984 Sam: the loss of a better past, like in a parallel universe, you 00:35:12.984 --> 00:35:14.064 know, this would have happened 00:35:14.314 --> 00:35:14.574 Ali: instead. 00:35:14.664 --> 00:35:15.144 And that's the thing. 00:35:15.144 --> 00:35:17.624 There's absolutely, my psych would say, well, there's absolutely no guarantee 00:35:17.624 --> 00:35:21.684 that that's how it would have worked out for you, but it's not, but it's, you're, 00:35:21.954 --> 00:35:25.464 there's safety in the fantasy because you're, and that, and that's what it is. 00:35:25.464 --> 00:35:26.474 Cause it's still a fantasy. 00:35:26.474 --> 00:35:32.274 Whereas yeah, it's actually stepping into like, yeah, into a known thing is. 00:35:33.064 --> 00:35:36.064 Well, into something that you can know is brave, whereas 00:35:36.544 --> 00:35:38.284 staying in this fantasy is safe. 00:35:38.344 --> 00:35:39.174 Sam: Yes, that's right. 00:35:39.184 --> 00:35:39.664 Exactly. 00:35:39.704 --> 00:35:42.134 100 percent safe, but deadly and dangerous. 00:35:42.134 --> 00:35:45.444 And we have to, to the greatest extent possible. 00:35:45.454 --> 00:35:48.464 So to rephrase what you said, we all have to take as much responsibility as we can. 00:35:48.546 --> 00:35:49.866 I'm going to just retwist that a little bit. 00:35:50.186 --> 00:35:54.116 We all, we all have interdependence with one another and we all have 00:35:54.116 --> 00:35:57.636 to honour the, those that are depending on us and vice versa. 00:35:57.636 --> 00:35:57.876 Right. 00:35:57.876 --> 00:35:58.306 And so. 00:35:59.476 --> 00:36:03.296 And we all have to let go of as much fantasy as we can, as fast 00:36:03.296 --> 00:36:04.966 as we can, is how I would put it. 00:36:04.996 --> 00:36:06.926 So, I finally found the Lacan quote. 00:36:06.956 --> 00:36:08.780 This was making me, think about... 00:36:08.870 --> 00:36:13.650 Actually, no, this is Véronique Voreuze and Bogdan Wolf, um, 00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:15.370 from their book, The Later Lacan. 00:36:15.456 --> 00:36:18.286 The real invention of the subject that anchors him or her in language, right? 00:36:18.286 --> 00:36:20.386 So all those victim statements, it's all in language, right? 00:36:20.386 --> 00:36:21.866 So pay attention to the language. 00:36:22.636 --> 00:36:26.166 Psychoanalysis may not seek to remove the symptom, and so not be a 00:36:26.166 --> 00:36:28.696 therapy in the usual sense, yet it has profoundly therapeutic effects. 00:36:28.706 --> 00:36:31.496 So in what one, so in what way does psychoanalysis improve 00:36:31.496 --> 00:36:32.926 the life of a given subject? 00:36:33.776 --> 00:36:36.916 Just goes to your sort of, are we being sceptical about therapy here? 00:36:37.736 --> 00:36:40.566 Following the later Lacan, the analyst takes his or her bearings from the 00:36:40.566 --> 00:36:43.646 fantasy, rather than the meaning. 00:36:43.801 --> 00:36:47.761 of the symptoms complained about and the therapeutic benefits proceed 00:36:47.761 --> 00:36:51.171 from a radical decrease in suffering obtained not through an eradication 00:36:51.171 --> 00:36:54.469 of the symptom, and then it uses some jargon here, but through a reduction 00:36:54.479 --> 00:36:55.809 of the symptom to the synthome. 00:36:56.694 --> 00:36:59.944 So, I don't know what that means, but I think I get where this is going. 00:37:00.114 --> 00:37:04.854 The reduction entails an isolation of and separation from the fantasy. 00:37:05.444 --> 00:37:09.274 This analytic strategy, driven by what Lacan was first to recognize as 00:37:09.274 --> 00:37:13.704 the desire of the analyst, denotes an uncompromising belief in the possibility 00:37:13.864 --> 00:37:17.854 that the dignity of the subject can return in the separation from the fantasy. 00:37:18.619 --> 00:37:19.419 Joe: I don't, yeah, I don't know what the... 00:37:19.419 --> 00:37:21.914 Lakan is always, incomprehensible. 00:37:21.914 --> 00:37:24.654 I think he's, in the fantasy means in the context of that quote. 00:37:24.884 --> 00:37:27.964 Sam: Lakan is in some ways a fraud, and in some ways a raving mystic. 00:37:27.974 --> 00:37:28.364 Hesitant 00:37:28.364 --> 00:37:31.094 Joe: as I am to even try and get into a Lakan conversation. 00:37:31.094 --> 00:37:31.704 Hang on, I've nearly... 00:37:31.704 --> 00:37:33.454 It's not clear in that quote what the fantasy 00:37:33.454 --> 00:37:33.614 Sam: means. 00:37:33.654 --> 00:37:34.724 No, I've nearly finished it. 00:37:34.764 --> 00:37:36.144 It's, well, it's how I was discussing 00:37:36.144 --> 00:37:36.664 Joe: it the other week. 00:37:36.674 --> 00:37:38.164 What's the fantasy for a victim? 00:37:38.694 --> 00:37:38.974 So, 00:37:39.544 --> 00:37:44.258 Sam: the, the fantasy of, sort of, this pure platonic victimhood. 00:37:44.669 --> 00:37:45.519 It's a fantasy. 00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:46.929 I have wro no, 00:37:46.979 --> 00:37:48.044 Joe: I have wronged it as well. 00:37:48.044 --> 00:37:51.719 Yeah, and how I overcame, say, my trauma from my last relationship 00:37:51.729 --> 00:37:53.229 was to really radically own... 00:37:53.569 --> 00:37:57.329 My part in things, which was always very prominent, and there was nothing 00:37:57.329 --> 00:38:00.449 that happened to me that I didn't put myself in a position to happen. 00:38:00.459 --> 00:38:02.239 Sam: Well, let's not go too far the other way. 00:38:02.279 --> 00:38:03.399 Let's not go too far the other way. 00:38:03.709 --> 00:38:04.949 That's how I overcame it. 00:38:05.689 --> 00:38:06.129 Well, okay, 00:38:06.309 --> 00:38:06.799 Joe: that's fair then. 00:38:06.819 --> 00:38:10.079 So the fantasy was what you said, the fantasy was that I was a victim, 00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:12.199 an innocent somehow victim, and I 00:38:12.339 --> 00:38:12.949 Sam: felt that... 00:38:12.979 --> 00:38:14.319 Purely, purely and entirely 00:38:14.349 --> 00:38:14.749 Joe: a victim. 00:38:14.749 --> 00:38:19.009 But in every case I made choices which put myself in a position to be harmed. 00:38:19.224 --> 00:38:20.954 Ali: You see, I think that's victim blaming though. 00:38:21.534 --> 00:38:21.984 Of myself? 00:38:22.064 --> 00:38:22.904 Of yourself, it is. 00:38:22.904 --> 00:38:24.004 But I don't identify. 00:38:24.434 --> 00:38:24.984 But I, but, 00:38:25.004 --> 00:38:26.254 Joe: because I think, yeah, they're, they're, I identify 00:38:26.264 --> 00:38:28.754 as something that, someone who had some bad shit happen to me. 00:38:28.764 --> 00:38:29.134 Because there was 00:38:29.144 --> 00:38:32.344 Ali: absolutely going to be people and circumstances 00:38:32.344 --> 00:38:33.684 where that is not applicable. 00:38:33.694 --> 00:38:33.744 Correct. 00:38:33.754 --> 00:38:36.014 Where they, there's absolutely nothing they could've or 00:38:36.014 --> 00:38:37.244 would've done where it would've, 00:38:37.244 --> 00:38:37.414 Joe: yeah. 00:38:37.414 --> 00:38:41.169 Exactly, but if it's a relationship that you kept, Day by day choosing to stay 00:38:41.169 --> 00:38:45.629 in or go into, or go further into, and you look back and you can remember all 00:38:45.629 --> 00:38:47.869 those red flags that you've braved past. 00:38:48.459 --> 00:38:49.439 Ali: It's easy in hindsight, isn't it? 00:38:49.489 --> 00:38:50.589 Yeah, but it's a time. 00:38:50.589 --> 00:38:50.879 But what 00:38:50.879 --> 00:38:54.649 Joe: I'm saying is, I actually think this is a key to getting over things. 00:38:55.029 --> 00:38:58.339 There's some things which you can't take any responsibility for, like 00:38:58.339 --> 00:39:02.989 child sex abuse, but there's a lot of adult things that people don't real... 00:39:03.329 --> 00:39:05.599 Don't stop and think, what was my part? 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:06.349 Okay, you're right. 00:39:06.389 --> 00:39:09.359 What did I do even a year before this happened that put me in 00:39:09.359 --> 00:39:10.029 Sam: this position? 00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:12.019 Can we agree though, responsibility in the past... 00:39:12.574 --> 00:39:13.974 Be it hard to pin down. 00:39:14.044 --> 00:39:16.644 Responsibility in the present, also difficult, but it's the one That's 00:39:16.664 --> 00:39:18.414 Joe: why I say radical responsibility. 00:39:18.464 --> 00:39:20.384 So I say look really hard. 00:39:20.474 --> 00:39:20.834 Okay. 00:39:20.874 --> 00:39:21.494 And find 00:39:21.494 --> 00:39:22.344 Sam: where you were responsible. 00:39:22.354 --> 00:39:23.754 Let's, okay, so it's an ambit claim. 00:39:23.774 --> 00:39:27.004 Let's go for 100 percent and then we'll fall back to wherever reality lies. 00:39:27.184 --> 00:39:27.584 Okay. 00:39:27.874 --> 00:39:28.174 Joe: Sure. 00:39:28.204 --> 00:39:29.034 Sure. 00:39:29.084 --> 00:39:31.194 No, I'm not really saying there's an ambit thing. 00:39:31.214 --> 00:39:31.884 I'm saying... 00:39:32.339 --> 00:39:36.229 Well, in this particular case, I can take full responsibility and 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:40.499 then, and then I can overcome it because it's like, Oh man, well, 00:39:40.499 --> 00:39:43.559 Sam: I guess Jesus is getting nailed to the cross and he's like, 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:45.059 yeah, yeah, this, I did this, 00:39:45.479 --> 00:39:46.259 Joe: I chose this. 00:39:46.669 --> 00:39:49.419 But are you still going to try and explain this Lakhan quote, which is 00:39:49.419 --> 00:39:50.999 basically like a whole nother episode? 00:39:51.029 --> 00:39:51.379 Well, no, 00:39:51.429 --> 00:39:54.879 Sam: no, it's, I think this will be in another episode, but I 00:39:54.879 --> 00:39:56.249 think this is not as difficult. 00:39:56.514 --> 00:39:57.524 Um, now that I've read it five or 00:39:57.524 --> 00:40:02.084 Joe: six times, I like that last bit you said about the, the quote about the, 00:40:02.270 --> 00:40:02.920 Sam: subject. 00:40:03.020 --> 00:40:03.380 Okay. 00:40:03.380 --> 00:40:07.100 So, and so the therapist has to have, so basically the 00:40:07.100 --> 00:40:08.860 desire of the analyst, right? 00:40:09.340 --> 00:40:13.450 An uncompromising belief in the possibility that the dignity of 00:40:13.450 --> 00:40:17.890 the subject can return in the separation from the fantasy. 00:40:17.970 --> 00:40:18.640 That's the bit 00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:20.660 Joe: I like, except I don't know what the fantasy is. 00:40:20.770 --> 00:40:21.850 It's just any, 00:40:22.510 --> 00:40:24.800 Sam: any thought that you actively maintain. 00:40:25.490 --> 00:40:27.920 You know, like a positive or negative self image or a positive 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:31.110 or negative idea of others, there's just anything that's not real. 00:40:31.110 --> 00:40:31.720 Anything that's not 00:40:31.720 --> 00:40:32.540 Joe: real is the fantasy. 00:40:32.570 --> 00:40:34.770 I'm talking about the dignity of the subject. 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:39.660 When I say take responsibility and look for your part in things, what you'll 00:40:39.660 --> 00:40:42.040 get back eventually is the dignity 00:40:42.040 --> 00:40:42.570 Sam: of the subject. 00:40:42.580 --> 00:40:44.988 That's what, and that's what we should always be striving for. 00:40:44.988 --> 00:40:45.253 Joe: Yeah. 00:40:45.253 --> 00:40:48.760 Which is the opposite of being a victim, the opposite of, sorry, the opposite of 00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:51.580 having a victim identity is to have a. 00:40:51.645 --> 00:40:53.595 Fully responsible identity. 00:40:53.925 --> 00:40:57.105 Sam: Well, and ultimately what a lot of victim, uh, victims 00:40:57.135 --> 00:40:59.235 are seeking is, is that dignity. 00:40:59.325 --> 00:41:03.165 And often in clinging to the label, they are seeking that dignity. 00:41:03.215 --> 00:41:04.655 They're asking to be given it. 00:41:05.005 --> 00:41:07.505 But perhaps what you're saying is stop waiting for others to 00:41:07.505 --> 00:41:08.925 give it to you or whatever. 00:41:09.545 --> 00:41:10.665 And you know, like the child that... 00:41:11.245 --> 00:41:13.765 The cries and then nothing happens and you cry a bit more and nothing 00:41:13.765 --> 00:41:18.685 happens, and then you really cry and then someone comes and soothes you, 00:41:18.685 --> 00:41:20.275 you know, like what Allie was saying. 00:41:20.665 --> 00:41:24.085 And at some point the self-soothing has to come in or none of your 00:41:24.085 --> 00:41:25.435 relationships are gonna succeed. 00:41:25.945 --> 00:41:31.075 But like, so to continue the quote, it is the fantasy that gives consistency to the 00:41:31.255 --> 00:41:36.895 other with the big O, the big other, and a consistent other commands, alienation. 00:41:37.615 --> 00:41:39.200 So the victim has. 00:41:40.115 --> 00:41:43.565 So the capital V victim has the capital O other, right? 00:41:43.605 --> 00:41:47.985 You know, John Howard, or the person who assaulted me, or for MAGA people, 00:41:48.025 --> 00:41:51.705 it's woke, and communists, and whoever that are ruining everything. 00:41:51.799 --> 00:41:53.559 Consistent other commands alienation. 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:58.269 Dignity, then, for the neurotic subject is asserted in a process of 00:41:58.299 --> 00:42:03.609 separation from one's own investment in one's position of alienation. 00:42:04.489 --> 00:42:04.749 So... 00:42:05.254 --> 00:42:07.024 We first discover that we're alienated. 00:42:07.164 --> 00:42:08.854 Under capitalism, everyone is alienated. 00:42:09.034 --> 00:42:13.084 That's like a fundamental, it's like an axiom of Marxism, right? 00:42:13.114 --> 00:42:15.294 All workers are alienated from their labor. 00:42:16.184 --> 00:42:18.104 They're alienated from their humanity, ultimately. 00:42:18.504 --> 00:42:21.264 So you have to discover your alienation, and then you have 00:42:21.264 --> 00:42:22.554 to accept it and embrace it. 00:42:22.894 --> 00:42:25.814 To an extent and understand what it means and then you have to try to 00:42:25.814 --> 00:42:29.537 begin moving beyond your alienation through Connection to others basically 00:42:29.787 --> 00:42:33.467 equality with deliberate choosing to have equality with other human beings. 00:42:33.507 --> 00:42:34.897 That's where it's at This is yeah, 00:42:35.117 --> 00:42:35.937 Joe: this is pretty hot. 00:42:35.957 --> 00:42:40.567 This is you like nerding out Like, you're just going, this one is for the 00:42:40.577 --> 00:42:44.777 Sam stans out there, they're just gonna like, whoa, they've just let Sam off the 00:42:44.777 --> 00:42:48.857 leash, or no, like, because you've gone beyond what I can, like, what, what else? 00:42:49.007 --> 00:42:49.517 You can edit 00:42:49.517 --> 00:42:51.417 Sam: it if you want, but like, I think it's very clear. 00:42:51.437 --> 00:42:52.317 To, to, to, to, 00:42:52.627 --> 00:42:54.487 Joe: to, to quote my favorite catchphrase. 00:42:54.497 --> 00:42:57.507 Sam: Stop investing in your own sense of alienation and try 00:42:57.507 --> 00:42:59.037 to make connection and, yeah. 00:42:59.037 --> 00:43:00.067 Joe: I think we should finish up. 00:43:00.357 --> 00:43:03.877 But, tell me this Sam, I didn't really understand that Lacan quote, 00:43:03.917 --> 00:43:05.197 I won't be the only one out there. 00:43:05.257 --> 00:43:06.747 Sam: When I read it a fifth time, you'll get it. 00:43:06.792 --> 00:43:13.932 Joe: But what about the, so the dignity of the subject, I got that bit. 00:43:13.952 --> 00:43:14.532 Sam: That makes sense. 00:43:14.532 --> 00:43:14.892 Doesn't it? 00:43:15.002 --> 00:43:16.332 Joe: And, uh, and 00:43:16.332 --> 00:43:18.312 Sam: the separation from the fantasy. 00:43:18.312 --> 00:43:21.892 Joe: You were talking earlier about having a healthy self as a result 00:43:21.912 --> 00:43:23.582 of 10 years, say, of therapy. 00:43:23.612 --> 00:43:23.902 Sure. 00:43:24.472 --> 00:43:27.972 But what about the fact that the separate self is an illusion? 00:43:28.162 --> 00:43:28.392 I don't know. 00:43:28.392 --> 00:43:29.302 I tend to go. 00:43:29.552 --> 00:43:31.242 So there's a, there's not a contradiction. 00:43:31.242 --> 00:43:34.092 There's a paradox here that I have to grapple with, which is. 00:43:34.652 --> 00:43:41.162 My experience, my phenomenological experience from, anyone can do this 00:43:41.182 --> 00:43:45.292 in meditation, just by closing their eyes, is that the separate self is a 00:43:45.292 --> 00:43:50.012 complete illusion, and it's a cause of much suffering, that illusion. 00:43:50.652 --> 00:43:56.232 But I need a healthy social self to function in the world, and I think what 00:43:56.242 --> 00:44:01.672 therapy does If successful is allows me to have a healthy social self, but 00:44:01.672 --> 00:44:06.772 I always need to remember that's just a construction and that basically Joe In 00:44:06.772 --> 00:44:11.832 the track suit, he's just like an action figure placed in the world by this loving 00:44:11.832 --> 00:44:16.012 awareness, which I would call God, and I'm moving around and I'm acting in the world, 00:44:16.042 --> 00:44:19.132 but it's, it's not, it's not reality. 00:44:19.142 --> 00:44:19.412 No, no, no. 00:44:19.532 --> 00:44:19.662 I 00:44:19.672 --> 00:44:19.982 get it. 00:44:19.992 --> 00:44:20.412 I get it. 00:44:20.672 --> 00:44:20.862 Do you 00:44:20.862 --> 00:44:21.352 get that? 00:44:21.402 --> 00:44:21.982 Absolutely. 00:44:22.272 --> 00:44:25.262 So, in a way, going to a therapist is a bit like taking your action 00:44:25.262 --> 00:44:27.192 figure to a, to a, to a toy store. 00:44:27.702 --> 00:44:29.112 Yeah, toy repair place. 00:44:29.182 --> 00:44:31.992 Yeah, and you just get it worked out a bit and now it's it's it's 00:44:31.992 --> 00:44:35.962 doing more stuff and it's better But I don't deeper than that. 00:44:36.022 --> 00:44:38.162 It's it doesn't matter that much. 00:44:38.202 --> 00:44:41.502 No, I get ya I get how healthy your illusory self is. 00:44:41.982 --> 00:44:42.232 Yeah. 00:44:42.232 --> 00:44:42.462 Yeah. 00:44:42.462 --> 00:44:45.322 Yeah, because you're only working on an imaginary thing 00:44:46.102 --> 00:44:48.797 There's always a further frontier That's what I'm saying. 00:44:49.087 --> 00:44:50.387 Like, yeah, but can 00:44:50.387 --> 00:44:53.687 you, but can you integrate Lacanian psychoanalysis 00:44:53.707 --> 00:44:55.289 with an understanding of non 00:44:55.289 --> 00:44:55.869 duality? 00:44:55.939 --> 00:44:56.489 Sam: Of course. 00:44:56.529 --> 00:44:58.769 No, I think that's what it's why I keep coming back to 00:44:58.769 --> 00:45:00.169 Zizek Sorry everyone like that. 00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:00.779 We've got the 00:45:01.979 --> 00:45:04.579 Joe: Yeah, maybe one day we'll just do a Zizek episode. 00:45:04.729 --> 00:45:05.829 You can try and Sam's 00:45:05.849 --> 00:45:06.469 Sam: playing Zizek. 00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:10.339 No, no, I don't understand What I do what I do sort of grasp is that 00:45:10.339 --> 00:45:15.339 he's managed to kind of Bring ideas from like Pauline Christianity, 00:45:16.019 --> 00:45:21.679 and Marx, and Hegel, and Freud, and basically, so the way he's integrated 00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:23.779 the Western canon with the, with the 00:45:23.829 --> 00:45:28.249 you know, with the New Testament, but he's also integrated that with Marxism 00:45:28.249 --> 00:45:32.589 and like a account of human dignity, which is relevant to what we're talking about. 00:45:32.809 --> 00:45:33.829 It's all about human dignity. 00:45:33.889 --> 00:45:35.039 That's the whole project 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:36.599 Joe: I was just talking about the illusion of 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:37.269 Sam: the separate self. 00:45:37.279 --> 00:45:37.699 Well, right. 00:45:37.699 --> 00:45:37.969 Okay. 00:45:37.969 --> 00:45:41.459 So to get back to the paradox you're talking about We can't work. 00:45:41.649 --> 00:45:46.469 We can't operate without Individuality and we can't operate as individuals 00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:48.129 Like, both things are true. 00:45:48.189 --> 00:45:51.729 Like the idea that you can live your life as an individual is complete nonsense. 00:45:51.769 --> 00:45:53.749 Like from the moment you're born and people wipe your 00:45:53.749 --> 00:45:55.339 ass and feed you baby food. 00:45:55.779 --> 00:46:01.229 And like the idea that like I stand alone and this, this, it's a fantasy, right? 00:46:01.229 --> 00:46:06.389 So it's, I mean, in the psychoanalytical sense, it's a, it's a disabling fantasy. 00:46:06.419 --> 00:46:10.064 I stand alone and you can experience aloneness as a, As 00:46:10.064 --> 00:46:11.384 a, as a form of victimhood. 00:46:11.504 --> 00:46:14.914 You can experience it as a form of empowerment and strength, but like 00:46:15.034 --> 00:46:18.094 fundamentally, we have to be alone, but we also have to be with others. 00:46:18.094 --> 00:46:19.804 There's no escaping our duty to others. 00:46:19.804 --> 00:46:21.634 There's no escaping our duty to the self. 00:46:21.784 --> 00:46:24.874 We're we're stuck on the horns of these paradoxes constantly. 00:46:24.874 --> 00:46:26.644 And ultimately they're not paradoxes. 00:46:26.974 --> 00:46:30.179 And in therapy, you're not just working on yourself, you're actually working 00:46:30.319 --> 00:46:32.424 on who you are as a social being. 00:46:32.544 --> 00:46:32.934 Yes. 00:46:32.934 --> 00:46:32.994 Yeah. 00:46:33.024 --> 00:46:36.264 And that is like in the, in a sense, what matters more than 00:46:36.264 --> 00:46:37.344 who you are when you're alone. 00:46:37.374 --> 00:46:37.554 Yeah. 00:46:37.584 --> 00:46:38.454 Ali: Because that's what's up. 00:46:38.514 --> 00:46:38.784 Yeah. 00:46:38.784 --> 00:46:38.785 Yeah. 00:46:38.884 --> 00:46:41.044 Because that's, that's actually gonna impact everybody else. 00:46:41.134 --> 00:46:41.344 Yes. 00:46:41.344 --> 00:46:42.184 Rather than like, yeah. 00:46:42.184 --> 00:46:45.334 If you alone in your room doing nothing like isn't gonna 00:46:45.334 --> 00:46:46.954 Sam: impact, well, that's knock yourself out doing it. 00:46:46.954 --> 00:46:47.404 That's the other side 00:46:47.404 --> 00:46:52.024 Joe: of, of, of a non-dual understanding of reality is complete interdependence. 00:46:52.054 --> 00:46:52.444 Correct. 00:46:52.474 --> 00:46:52.624 Yes. 00:46:52.654 --> 00:46:54.424 There's not three people in this room. 00:46:54.424 --> 00:46:55.684 There's just one awareness. 00:46:55.714 --> 00:46:57.774 With three separate layers of conditioning. 00:46:57.804 --> 00:46:58.164 Sam: That's right. 00:46:58.164 --> 00:47:00.234 And what we talk about a lot is our conditioning. 00:47:00.234 --> 00:47:00.324 Yes. 00:47:00.324 --> 00:47:01.734 So you are conditioning in a. 00:47:01.989 --> 00:47:05.509 Center right, business focused upbringing, you're conditioning 00:47:05.509 --> 00:47:09.539 in a Hare Krishna upbringing and my conditioning in a left wing, 00:47:09.769 --> 00:47:11.279 communist, anarchist upbringing, right? 00:47:11.569 --> 00:47:12.449 So that's what makes... 00:47:12.869 --> 00:47:14.479 It just gives us different flavors. 00:47:14.549 --> 00:47:15.009 It does. 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.519 But our awareness, our consciousness, while we're here 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.759 in this garage, is not separate. 00:47:19.839 --> 00:47:20.179 No. 00:47:20.189 --> 00:47:23.019 It's just having a slightly altered experience of itself in 00:47:23.049 --> 00:47:25.059 three different spatial places. 00:47:25.089 --> 00:47:26.149 But it's not separate. 00:47:26.259 --> 00:47:29.549 I think we've arrived at a, I think all three of us have arrived at a complex and 00:47:29.899 --> 00:47:32.269 sophisticated synthesis in our own ways. 00:47:32.349 --> 00:47:32.579 Other 00:47:32.579 --> 00:47:33.549 Joe: than that, we've just been talking. 00:47:33.674 --> 00:47:34.414 Absolute rubbish 00:47:34.414 --> 00:47:35.264 Sam: for 20 minutes. 00:47:35.264 --> 00:47:37.144 That's absolutely correct as well. 00:47:37.224 --> 00:47:37.534 Uh, 00:47:37.534 --> 00:47:38.274 Joe: yeah, yeah. 00:47:38.764 --> 00:47:41.224 It's always bad when Ali goes quiet for 20 minutes. 00:47:41.224 --> 00:47:45.004 Ali: No, no, it's like, I, it's like, I really get to like, I'm like, I'm 00:47:45.004 --> 00:47:49.534 listening with intent and I just, it's, yeah, I get stuck in that sort 00:47:49.534 --> 00:47:52.494 of, I, I'm, yeah, I don't want to say anything because I'm actually 00:47:52.494 --> 00:47:54.294 listening and just taking it all in and. 00:47:55.004 --> 00:47:56.284 Appreciating it for what it is. 00:47:56.284 --> 00:47:59.484 And I, I, as someone who's actually obviously a part of this show, it 00:47:59.524 --> 00:48:03.804 should be something I need to be mindful of, but I should interject with 00:48:03.804 --> 00:48:06.444 a thought, but, but for the most, but sometimes, yeah, I'm just sitting there 00:48:06.444 --> 00:48:07.644 just like, oh, this is fascinating. 00:48:07.644 --> 00:48:10.134 And then, yeah, and thinking about like the brains going, you 00:48:10.134 --> 00:48:11.074 know, at a hundred miles an hour. 00:48:11.114 --> 00:48:11.794 So there's just no. 00:48:13.849 --> 00:48:17.809 Joe: But I'm relying on you as the token Atheist Rational Materialist 00:48:18.749 --> 00:48:22.239 to step in and be like, no, of course the self and self's not an illusion. 00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:23.329 I've got mine over here. 00:48:23.329 --> 00:48:23.579 Thanks. 00:48:23.579 --> 00:48:26.489 Sam: Because you really are alone in the Atheism because 00:48:26.489 --> 00:48:28.319 I really am a non committal. 00:48:29.179 --> 00:48:29.843 Yeah, and 00:48:29.843 --> 00:48:32.029 Joe: you were drenched in spirituality growing up. 00:48:32.029 --> 00:48:32.969 Sam: Oh, deeply. 00:48:33.869 --> 00:48:37.289 And I've said this before, I almost had that medieval experience of religion, 00:48:37.289 --> 00:48:40.919 when it was real shit, like it was thick, like, you know, like thick. 00:48:40.939 --> 00:48:44.679 Joe: But that's the point, Ali, take us to task, take me to task 00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:45.769 on any of the spiritual shit 00:48:46.029 --> 00:48:46.209 Ali: I say. 00:48:46.209 --> 00:48:50.579 But am I not allowed to appreciate, like, the discussion around it without 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.299 Joe: Well, you're not open minded. 00:48:52.784 --> 00:48:53.966 Sam: Without activating her. 00:48:53.966 --> 00:48:54.902 Activate atheist mode. 00:48:54.902 --> 00:48:55.526 Must counteract. 00:48:55.526 --> 00:48:58.957 Joe: She must, because it's not like she walks away thinking, Oh 00:48:58.957 --> 00:49:03.011 yeah, maybe I will start to have a curiosity about a higher power. 00:49:03.011 --> 00:49:05.944 Sam: Joe wants you to be your paper cutout and he'll be his 00:49:06.064 --> 00:49:07.104 and we'll all act our roles. 00:49:07.104 --> 00:49:10.164 Joe: But you don't have curiosity about spirituality really. 00:49:10.824 --> 00:49:10.884 Sam: I 00:49:10.894 --> 00:49:11.504 Ali: think you've got curiosity. 00:49:11.614 --> 00:49:14.624 I do around the cultural community sort of sense. 00:49:14.864 --> 00:49:15.944 And the phenomenology of it. 00:49:15.944 --> 00:49:19.524 Yeah, like, yeah, there's a, there's a fascination with it, but there's not a. 00:49:19.904 --> 00:49:21.014 Desire to be. 00:49:21.374 --> 00:49:21.944 Which you 00:49:22.044 --> 00:49:26.204 Joe: either have to have an experience with it, like a felt experience with 00:49:26.204 --> 00:49:27.674 it, or it doesn't make any sense. 00:49:27.834 --> 00:49:28.534 Sam: Yeah, I'd agree. 00:49:29.044 --> 00:49:29.394 But you've 00:49:29.394 --> 00:49:31.034 Joe: never tried to do that either. 00:49:31.464 --> 00:49:35.234 Ali: No, it's just never, it's never occurred to me that it's 00:49:35.234 --> 00:49:36.944 something I want or need in my life. 00:49:36.944 --> 00:49:39.964 Joe: But then when you, when this show came out, you started listening to us and. 00:49:40.004 --> 00:49:41.194 Ali: I find it fascinating. 00:49:41.194 --> 00:49:42.344 It's fascinating. 00:49:42.354 --> 00:49:44.494 I find it fascinating as a thing to. 00:49:44.834 --> 00:49:47.414 Joe: From the outside, like an anthropologist or something. 00:49:47.424 --> 00:49:49.324 Sam: How wonderfully non egoic of you. 00:49:50.434 --> 00:49:53.214 Not enacting the role of the victim or the perpetrator. 00:49:53.214 --> 00:49:54.234 You're just like, I'm just listening. 00:49:54.464 --> 00:49:55.074 Ali: I'm just listening. 00:49:55.074 --> 00:49:56.084 It's something I'm interested 00:49:56.084 --> 00:49:56.234 Sam: in. 00:49:57.224 --> 00:49:57.624 No, it's true. 00:49:57.624 --> 00:50:00.664 I think when I'm doing my best pod listening, it is very, the 00:50:00.664 --> 00:50:02.974 self almost vanishes sometimes. 00:50:03.334 --> 00:50:05.064 You're just grokking the consciousness. 00:50:05.084 --> 00:50:05.364 Yes. 00:50:05.394 --> 00:50:06.144 Like it's cool. 00:50:06.254 --> 00:50:07.224 Ali: That's what it is. 00:50:07.224 --> 00:50:07.334 It is. 00:50:07.354 --> 00:50:12.724 You just, yeah, you're just sitting back and letting somebody else speak and. 00:50:13.504 --> 00:50:16.274 Put something together in a way that I would never have thought to put. 00:50:17.624 --> 00:50:22.304 Myself, because I don't have those thoughts, feelings or desires, but 00:50:22.694 --> 00:50:26.744 it's definitely a, yeah, it's still a fascination and an appreciation for 00:50:26.744 --> 00:50:27.314 what it is. 00:50:27.324 --> 00:50:27.394 Sam: That's right. 00:50:27.404 --> 00:50:28.544 And also I'll give you credit. 00:50:28.634 --> 00:50:32.524 My Lakan digression in this episode, it was Ali, you said something and then I 00:50:32.534 --> 00:50:33.824 immediately started looking through the. 00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:34.729 Not immediately. 00:50:35.029 --> 00:50:38.094 I, a couple of minutes later I went, yes, there's something in the WhatsApp. 00:50:38.254 --> 00:50:41.119 I screenshotted this Lacan thing and I managed to find it in the 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:42.649 hundreds of images in there. 00:50:42.829 --> 00:50:45.769 like you were the inspiration for that with the 'cause you took it 00:50:45.769 --> 00:50:48.319 back to therapy and that Yeah. 00:50:48.379 --> 00:50:49.909 Joe: Well, no, it's a form of atheism. 00:50:49.909 --> 00:50:52.219 That's not the Richard Dawkins Yes. 00:50:52.279 --> 00:50:52.819 Atheism. 00:50:52.849 --> 00:50:53.269 Correct. 00:50:53.269 --> 00:50:55.669 So you don't have the instinct to come in and try and destroy 00:50:55.674 --> 00:50:56.329 Sam: No, no. 00:50:56.359 --> 00:50:56.774 Ali: Mike, no. 00:50:56.934 --> 00:50:57.134 Absolutely not. 00:50:57.134 --> 00:50:57.654 Nothing to prove. 00:50:57.654 --> 00:50:58.574 Nothing to prove Nothing. 00:50:58.574 --> 00:50:58.774 Yeah. 00:50:58.779 --> 00:51:00.169 No, I absolutely, I, I don't. 00:51:00.539 --> 00:51:03.689 I don't see any point in pulling apart anyone else's belief system. 00:51:03.689 --> 00:51:07.999 It doesn't, you know, I think the only time I would ever comment or feel 00:51:07.999 --> 00:51:12.139 like I would, the need to interject as if I felt there was harm or some 00:51:12.139 --> 00:51:13.849 sort of harm being perpetrated. 00:51:13.849 --> 00:51:18.219 And I don't see talking about it as anything harmful, the same as I don't 00:51:18.219 --> 00:51:21.749 see it harmful, someone going to church or a mosque or participating 00:51:21.749 --> 00:51:27.009 in any sort of spiritual practice that brings them joy and, you know, comfort. 00:51:27.879 --> 00:51:30.449 Because I think that was the biggest thing I took from. 00:51:30.854 --> 00:51:33.544 My grandmother, who was deeply Catholic, was that it brought 00:51:33.544 --> 00:51:35.524 her so much comfort in her life. 00:51:35.554 --> 00:51:40.834 And I appreciated it for what that was rather than necessary a belief in it. 00:51:40.834 --> 00:51:44.024 It's not like, Oh, I want to get a bit of that, but I just, yeah. 00:51:45.054 --> 00:51:45.224 Sam: Yeah. 00:51:45.224 --> 00:51:45.534 That's right. 00:51:45.534 --> 00:51:46.404 It's working for you, man. 00:51:46.404 --> 00:51:47.634 Whatever gets you through the day. 00:51:47.964 --> 00:51:47.984 Yeah. 00:51:48.644 --> 00:51:50.334 Joe: I find that incredibly condescending. 00:51:51.209 --> 00:51:52.889 Because what you're discounting is that she might have been 00:51:52.899 --> 00:51:54.169 having a spiritual experience. 00:51:54.279 --> 00:51:54.719 No, but 00:51:55.209 --> 00:52:00.339 Ali: I'm not even saying that she wasn't, but I'm saying I've never had one so 00:52:00.709 --> 00:52:02.199 it's not something I can speak to. 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:03.229 Could happen to you though. 00:52:03.529 --> 00:52:09.069 It could, I'm not saying it couldn't, but I find it unlikely just because it's 00:52:09.139 --> 00:52:10.614 nothing I've had an experience of before. 00:52:10.614 --> 00:52:13.146 Joe: But also the non duality thing, the thing about exploring whether there's 00:52:13.146 --> 00:52:16.359 a separate self, it doesn't have to be spiritual, it's just an investigation. 00:52:16.959 --> 00:52:20.769 It's just asking a few questions with your eyes closed a few times in a row 00:52:20.839 --> 00:52:24.379 and suddenly something will become very obvious, which was not obvious before 00:52:24.389 --> 00:52:26.309 because it's right on the surface. 00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:28.019 Anyway, I think we should wrap it up. 00:52:28.049 --> 00:52:28.759 Well, that's right, man. 00:52:29.309 --> 00:52:29.879 Sam: Ultimately, you have to get 00:52:29.879 --> 00:52:30.989 Joe: past all the labels, man. 00:52:30.989 --> 00:52:33.049 Another few of the 10, 000 things. 00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:34.329 We're getting through a few now. 00:52:34.569 --> 00:52:35.089 We are. 00:52:36.279 --> 00:52:37.099 Thanks, Sam. 00:52:37.309 --> 00:52:37.469 Oh, 00:52:37.469 --> 00:52:37.949 Sam: thanks, Joe. 00:52:37.949 --> 00:52:40.329 I just want to say, before you, well, thanks, Ali. 00:52:40.499 --> 00:52:41.759 Sorry, going over your thanks there. 00:52:41.779 --> 00:52:42.129 Joe: No, no. 00:52:42.129 --> 00:52:43.154 We'll let Sam do another thing. 00:52:43.314 --> 00:52:44.694 Today, this 00:52:44.694 --> 00:52:48.964 Sam: ep marks the official, Ali's done as many eps with 00:52:48.964 --> 00:52:50.424 us as we did before, I think. 00:52:50.864 --> 00:52:52.084 My count is correct. 00:52:52.614 --> 00:52:54.164 Just had a look at the stats before. 00:52:54.794 --> 00:52:56.344 Yeah, I updated some tags. 00:52:56.354 --> 00:52:57.984 Joe: When does her probation period end? 00:52:59.174 --> 00:53:00.474 Sam: Uh, I think it's officially over. 00:53:00.554 --> 00:53:01.004 There you go. 00:53:01.104 --> 00:53:02.230 Joe: A while ago. 00:53:02.230 --> 00:53:03.769 A while ago. 00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:06.869 Good to have a diversity hiring, 00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:07.599 Sam: officially. 00:53:07.609 --> 00:53:09.789 Look, I think this DEI policy's worked out really well. 00:53:10.019 --> 00:53:11.249 Yeah, um, yeah, that's right. 00:53:11.249 --> 00:53:11.959 Well, I mean, that's the... 00:53:11.959 --> 00:53:13.239 Geeks have thoughts too, who knew? 00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:13.906 Joe: That's right. 00:53:13.906 --> 00:53:15.099 I know. 00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:16.129 Sam: People with, that's right. 00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:18.659 People with CPTSD have voices also. 00:53:18.679 --> 00:53:19.239 That's right. 00:53:19.309 --> 00:53:22.259 Um, and we, and the PMDD, I'm looking forward to that one. 00:53:22.319 --> 00:53:24.429 Oh, and earlier you two were talking about... 00:53:24.624 --> 00:53:24.894 Food. 00:53:24.894 --> 00:53:27.124 And I was like, Oh man, we're all going to have something to 00:53:27.124 --> 00:53:28.724 talk about on the food episode. 00:53:29.144 --> 00:53:30.654 Anyway, that's a preview for next time. 00:53:30.674 --> 00:53:32.614 Well, as Joe said, this has 00:53:32.614 --> 00:53:33.054 Joe: been. 00:53:33.804 --> 00:53:35.004 The 10, 000 things. 00:53:35.794 --> 00:53:36.044 Yeah. 00:53:36.084 --> 00:53:37.074 Two or three of. 00:53:37.474 --> 00:53:37.994 That's right. 00:53:38.244 --> 00:53:39.204 See you all next week. 00:53:39.254 --> 00:53:39.444 Yeah. 00:53:39.684 --> 00:53:42.034 Sam: We're just improv ing this outro till we find one we like. 00:53:42.454 --> 00:53:43.774 Bye.