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Good morning, Grid Connections listeners.

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Today I have the pleasure of sharing my
recent interview with John Volcker, a

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contributing editor to Car and Driver,
among many other auto outlets.

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He's been at the forefront of hybrid and
electric vehicle automotive journalism for

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over a decade, and he gets to share his
keen insights of the electric vehicle

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industry's disruption of combustion
vehicles with us today.

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In this episode, we didn't even get
halfway through all the topics I wanted to

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cover with them.

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But we had, I think the big ones and
recent developments, especially in the

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electric vehicle space, even as recently
as this past week.

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So exploring some of the nuances and the
challenges that shape the narrative in

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this rapidly evolving sector, it's really
great to get his take on someone who's in

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the industry and is a contributing writer
and has a lot of influence and more

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importantly, knowledge to actually
contribute to what he says and be able to

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back it up.

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So John brings us not only his
perspective, but also his exclusive

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insights from his recent test drive of the
Lucid Gravity prototype, a vehicle that's

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sparking interest and excitement across
the automotive world, especially among SUV

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buyers.

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But that's not all.

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We're also charging into the discussion of
the state of electric vehicle charging

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infrastructure here in the US.

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With EV adoption accelerating, the demand
for more and more advanced charging

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solutions is at an all -time high.

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John will share his expert perspective on
where the U S stands and building a robust

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charging network, the challenges that lie
ahead and what this means for electric

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vehicle owners and potential buyers.

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So buckle up and tune in as we discuss
today's landscape of electric vehicles

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from groundbreaking prototypes to the
infrastructure that powers them with one

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of the industry's most insightful voices,
John Volcker.

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This is the Grid connections podcast where
the future of mobility is always in the

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spotlight.

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And with that enjoy.

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thank you so much.

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if there are any listeners that are
unfamiliar, can you just share a little

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bit of your

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Sure.

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My so-called career has lots of lumps and
bumps in it.

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But after working as a product manager for
a large internet company in 2005, I

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realized that if I was ever going to make
money off what was my passion, which was

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the auto industry, then this would be the
time.

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The house was paid off and that.

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So.

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I started freelancing in the auto
journalism world, which is not how you pay

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the rent.

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And I needed something that would set me
apart from everybody else who can actually

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racetrack, drive, and has been doing this
for forever.

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And there was really, in the mid-2000s,
there was no good journalism about either

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hybrid cars or the nascent electric car
industry.

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I have a friend in Detroit who I remind
every few years that he said to me,

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when I told him that was going to be my
specialty, John, you're insane.

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The only people who care about those cars
are smelly hippies and they don't buy new

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cars.

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I remind him of that every couple of
years.

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But really I thought the electrified
vehicle industry, to use a problematic

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word, was interesting because it was the
first major change in powertrains since

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the diesel engine arrived.

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And, you know, there were stuff on the top
end of engines, but basically internal

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combustion cars were a known quantity with
increasing refinements to meet increasing

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regulation.

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The whole idea of adding a battery and one
or more electric motors was new,

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interesting, completely unfamiliar.

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And there were some articles out there
that I thought I might have been able to

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add some information and take a different
tack.

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And it actually sort of worked.

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So.

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Almost 20 years later, here I am.

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I have pretty deep background in the EV
industry.

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The story I tell is that I got my first
ride in a Tesla Roadster in September

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2006.

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I think it was Roadster number three.

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It's a long story.

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And because it only had 14% of battery
left, they wouldn't let me drive it.

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I don't know if it was even a licensed
production car.

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It had some kind of plate, but.

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They said, we can only do one speed run
because we have to run you back from Palo

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Alto to our garage in Redwood City.

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I actually have some pictures of the first
Tesla shop in Redwood City.

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And one acceleration run from a stoplight
up El Camino sort of convinced me that

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this was an interesting thing and electric
cars were not just glorified golf carts

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for hippies and everybody else.

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So here we are.

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Yeah, that's I think that's really
interesting because that is kind of a

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common experience.

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I think a lot of people now in the
industry or what have gotten people

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interested into electric vehicles.

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But let's say and there's a couple other
things I want to talk about relate to

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that.

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But I'm kind of curious.

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Was that the experience kind of told you
like, oh, I need to write about this.

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It sounds like that was actually after you
had already decided, right?

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I'd say they came about the same time.

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I was knocking around trying to figure out
what I wanted to do with my life.

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I was freelancing as a managing editor for
magazines and websites.

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I toggle back and forth.

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And I was always a car nerd.

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I mean, you know, a lot of little boys get
sports, I got cars.

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And so it was really that sort of pivot in
my life where...

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I've done a bunch of stuff, some of it was
fun, some of it wasn't.

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What would I like to do?

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And I was lucky enough and privileged
enough to be able to make that transition.

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And I picked something that turned out to
be a good thing for the future.

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But yeah, the first Tesla ride was sort
of, okay, there are hybrids out there.

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And frankly, every VC in Silicon Valley
where I was living at the time is buying

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Priuses.

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What's that about?

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Because, you know, they have BMWs and
Mercedes-Benz's and Audi's and sometimes

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fancier stuff.

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Why are they all bringing home Priuses?

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And the answer was, this is the most
technically advanced car in the world

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right now.

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And so, okay, Priuses, that's interesting.

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No one's writing about them in an
interesting way.

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This Tesla thing I just wrote in and
together it just sort of jolted.

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What would you say?

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Uh, no, that, that's really interesting.

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That makes a lot of sense.

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Cause that, uh, my exposure to it was a
little bit different as we were talking

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about this, where I was actually in high
school, kind of building and racing, but,

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uh, maybe only a year and a half, I was
actually down in the Bay area.

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And I was also really fortunate enough to
get a ride in one.

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And, uh, it actually was even crazier than
that.

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Not only was it, I just wanted to go
check.

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I was there for a work thing.

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I just wanted to go check out one of the
dealerships.

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I just like see.

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these things in the flesh.

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And then the guy.

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Oh, well, I mean, this was, uh, cause the
one you said was in Redwood city.

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I want to say this one was in Menlo.

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Yeah.

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The Menlo park location.

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actually.

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It was on the east side of El Camino.

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And it had that, it was the weird kind of
like a tagging all a little shaped, uh, I

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guess retail location with a service thing
attached to it.

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And so I was just kind of looking around
and maybe because I was just in a suit for

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a meeting I had been in, uh, the guy there
was just like, do you want to test drive

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it?

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And I was like, well, I would love to, but
I don't think this is the right thing.

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He's like, oh, here's the keys.

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Go, go for a drive.

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And I, at the time I think was 20 and I
just couldn't, I don't know.

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I mean, I think anywhere else in the
world.

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They probably would have been like, get
the hell out of here.

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But I think just once again, the Bay area
and to some extent, Tesla has always been

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kind of good about test drives like that.

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But I think they just like, Oh, it's
probably just some other tech millionaire

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who just sold something that like, yeah,
he can probably afford it.

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Whereas like I was trying to figure out
how to pay student loans and all these my

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rent for that month, but it was hard to
turn down that opportunity and.

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Kind of the same experience.

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It kind of closed any.

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questions or any doubt in my mind that
electric vehicles have a strong future.

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I just wasn't sure at that time if it was
going to be Tesla or some other company

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and clearly they felt they'd followed
through and everyone else is now trying to

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catch up with it.

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But following up on that, what was kind of
the point that you realized I'm sure for a

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long time.

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And I mean, I've even read this and seen
this where people are kind of doubting you

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or not believing that this is the future.

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What were

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ever an article you read or a moment in
the industry that kind of was the point

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where you felt like things had flipped and
people were like no longer doubting that

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like, Oh, it's going to be the EV stuff.

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And you kind of knew you had made the
right choice to be the person focused on

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EVs or do you, to be, do you think the
industry is still going through this?

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Yeah.

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Now, let's be clear.

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In 2024, the EV transition is unstoppable.

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Okay?

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There will be lumps and bumps.

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Sometimes the curve won't go like this.

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It may go like this.

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Maybe it'll go like this for a while.

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The US and North America are not leading
the charge.

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We are, in fact, global laggards, both
because we use vehicles differently.

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and because we're not good at industrial
policy.

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China is by far the leader.

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They want to use electric vehicles to
essentially crush the rest of the world's

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auto industry.

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And Europe is well ahead of North America
at this point.

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So it's going to happen.

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It will be a transition.

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that lasts well beyond my lifetime.

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Depending on whose numbers you use,
there's between 1.3 and 1.6 billion

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vehicles on the planet.

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The average car in the US on US roads is
now almost 13 years old.

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That's a transition that takes a
generation, if not two or three.

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But electric cars are now viable and
practical in a way that they simply

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weren't 10 years ago.

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10 years to the day after

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the first Leaf was sold in the US.

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So basically December, 2020, I guess.

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I did an article that said, look where
we've come in 10 years.

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That Leaf had 74 miles of range, ideally.

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It had 50 kilowatt fast charging, which
then was remarkable.

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And it was a somewhat peculiar looking
C-segment hatchback, compact hatchback.

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not a form factor Americans tend to buy.

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And at that point in December, 2010, Tesla
only had the roadster.

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They'd gone through a recall because they
essentially blew up the two-speed

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transmissions that they had fitted.

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The Model S was a promise that everybody
sort of sneered at.

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And now in December, 2020, you had pickup
trucks coming, you had a variety of SUV

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formats and...

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200 miles was the minimum acceptable range
on the vast majority of EVs in the market

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and 300 was coming Think what we'll be in
December 2030, right?

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batteries improve at 8% a year improving
cost performance and We saw some of that

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from 2010 to 2020.

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We will see the same thing in 2020 to 2030
Assisted by

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at least one new battery chemistry.

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It's not new, but we will have lithium
iron phosphate batteries coming into the

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US market, which they largely haven't so
far, because they're cheaper, albeit less

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energy dense.

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But everything's improving.

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So lithium iron phosphate batteries will,
in fact, be practical for that 200-plus

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mile electric car.

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So I'm not worried about the transition
stopping.

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To get back to the question you asked me
five minutes

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There wasn't one single eureka moment.

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There wasn't that point where I was
sitting, staring at a screen and the light

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bulb went off.

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I think it was really the combination of a
few things.

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The data on lifetime CO2 footprint per
mile of electric cars became conclusive

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that they had lower lifetime CO2 and it
continued to improve as the grid

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decarbonized.

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because an electric car has lower and
lower CO2 if it's charged on cleaner and

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cleaner power.

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And the Union of Concerned Scientists has
a great US map that I've written about for

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10 years, which started out being, well,
you may not wanna drive an EV in these

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areas of the States, drive a Prius
instead.

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Now, you know, at worst, you're almost
equal to a Prius, and at best, it's 100

233
00:12:49,792 --> 00:12:51,213
miles a gallon equivalent.

234
00:12:51,213 --> 00:12:51,334
So.

235
00:12:51,334 --> 00:12:53,014
It was the CO2 data.

236
00:12:53,375 --> 00:12:58,137
It was GM's board deciding that Tesla was
actually a threat.

237
00:12:58,137 --> 00:12:59,838
That happened 10 years ago.

238
00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:07,342
And overall, it was the continuing
consumer enthusiasm, and at least among

239
00:13:07,342 --> 00:13:11,645
early adopters, the fact that people
really liked their cars and did not want

240
00:13:11,645 --> 00:13:13,446
to go back.

241
00:13:13,446 --> 00:13:14,707
Some people still have.

242
00:13:14,707 --> 00:13:19,670
I think at the moment we're at this funny
sort of trough between the early adopters

243
00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:21,811
and early mass adoption.

244
00:13:22,352 --> 00:13:24,333
We can get to that a little bit later.

245
00:13:24,333 --> 00:13:31,637
But as of probably about three or four
years ago, I no longer have any worries

246
00:13:31,637 --> 00:13:35,420
that electric cars are going to fall off a
cliff and we won't transition.

247
00:13:35,420 --> 00:13:36,260
We will.

248
00:13:36,260 --> 00:13:38,982
But it won't be done until long after I
depart.

249
00:13:38,982 --> 00:13:48,750
Well, hopefully that will be quite a ways
away, but I see what Well, I think it's

250
00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:53,314
funny Ever already there's a couple of
things just kind of thinking back you talk

251
00:13:53,314 --> 00:13:57,698
about like Silicon Valley and being there
with the first Prius's and it just kind of

252
00:13:57,698 --> 00:14:02,543
even reminds me of one of the big things
especially count of the early 2010s was

253
00:14:02,543 --> 00:14:05,846
people were getting Prius's and then they
were going to shops to essentially convert

254
00:14:05,846 --> 00:14:06,307
them to

255
00:14:06,307 --> 00:14:10,148
plug-in hybrids and you're starting to, I
mean, obviously it costs a lot of money,

256
00:14:10,148 --> 00:14:13,949
but it was, it was exactly that thing
where people were seeing this as being the

257
00:14:13,949 --> 00:14:14,569
future.

258
00:14:14,569 --> 00:14:19,851
And it was so fascinating to me that
clearly it was definitely an early adopter

259
00:14:19,851 --> 00:14:24,472
part of the market, but the fact that
there were people buying brand new Priuses

260
00:14:24,472 --> 00:14:27,993
and then taking to a shop to spend like
another five to 10 grand to make them

261
00:14:27,993 --> 00:14:31,535
plug-in hybrids so they could have kind of
the best of both worlds for the commutes,

262
00:14:31,535 --> 00:14:32,416
depending on the situation.

263
00:14:32,416 --> 00:14:35,877
Uh, w it was one of those kinds of things
also to me that also like still like

264
00:14:35,877 --> 00:14:40,518
obviously there is a market demand and
need for this and it was surprising.

265
00:14:40,798 --> 00:14:41,298
Yeah.

266
00:14:41,298 --> 00:14:45,559
And, and obviously the ideal situation was
to get to the fully electric thing.

267
00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:48,800
But back then fast charging wasn't even an
idea.

268
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,161
It was like, maybe you could use these.

269
00:14:51,161 --> 00:14:55,302
There's a chat, a Mo thing that kind of
works here and there.

270
00:14:55,302 --> 00:14:58,863
Um, but it was, it was almost the concept
that plugin vehicles would be for around

271
00:14:58,863 --> 00:15:00,804
town and you just have like a hybrid for
longer.

272
00:15:00,804 --> 00:15:03,105
I've drives and it's so wild to think
about.

273
00:15:03,105 --> 00:15:06,727
I can't remember how much that has changed
and using.

274
00:15:08,088 --> 00:15:10,651
Well, that is true.

275
00:15:10,651 --> 00:15:11,311
Yeah.

276
00:15:11,605 --> 00:15:18,509
the plug-in Prius movement was a tiny,
tiny percentage of people who bought

277
00:15:18,509 --> 00:15:19,530
Priuses.

278
00:15:19,530 --> 00:15:23,772
Your earliest adopters were in Silicon
Valley and California because gasoline is

279
00:15:23,772 --> 00:15:26,774
really expensive in California, always has
been.

280
00:15:26,774 --> 00:15:30,277
But then the rest of the world decided,
okay, yeah, it looks kind of strange, but

281
00:15:30,277 --> 00:15:30,638
you know what?

282
00:15:30,638 --> 00:15:35,840
I get 45 to 50 miles a gallon, no matter
what I do to the damn thing, that's better

283
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:41,462
than the 22 miles a gallon that a similar
shaped car that is in a hybrid gets.

284
00:15:41,462 --> 00:15:42,742
I'm gonna do that.

285
00:15:42,942 --> 00:15:48,385
And like electric cars, your friends, your
coworkers, your neighbors, your relations,

286
00:15:48,385 --> 00:15:53,067
all as one of them got, you'd ask
questions, you'd realize it was sort of

287
00:15:53,067 --> 00:15:54,927
normal, it was a real car.

288
00:15:54,927 --> 00:15:59,549
Same process happens for electric cars,
but the change for electric cars is

289
00:15:59,549 --> 00:15:59,810
bigger.

290
00:15:59,810 --> 00:16:04,953
Remember that there's a lot of people that
still think hybrids have to plug in.

291
00:16:05,594 --> 00:16:11,499
As for the plug-in hybrid thing, several
members of your audience are gonna smile

292
00:16:11,499 --> 00:16:17,644
because I am on record as being not a
skeptic, plug-in hybrids work really

293
00:16:17,644 --> 00:16:20,748
beautifully if people plug them in.

294
00:16:20,748 --> 00:16:22,950
And thus far, although we had data.

295
00:16:22,950 --> 00:16:27,351
from the last decade from GM and Ford
about their plug-in hybrids and how many

296
00:16:27,351 --> 00:16:33,172
miles were accomplished on grid power, we
do not have that data this decade.

297
00:16:33,172 --> 00:16:39,174
And the makers of the two biggest selling
plug-in hybrids in the US, this is 18

298
00:16:39,174 --> 00:16:45,956
months old now, which are Jeep with its
4xe Wrangler and Toyota with its RAV4

299
00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:50,357
Prime and Prius Prime, will not say
exactly what percentage of miles are

300
00:16:50,357 --> 00:16:51,338
covered on grid power.

301
00:16:51,338 --> 00:16:57,581
even though they have that data, Jeep did
finally tell the Detroit Reporter at least

302
00:16:57,581 --> 00:17:03,765
half of its 4xE owners plug in at least
once a month.

303
00:17:04,245 --> 00:17:09,108
This is not a ringing endorsement of the
large amounts of subsidies we have given

304
00:17:09,108 --> 00:17:14,451
to plug-in hybrids, and I remain to be
convinced until I see proper data that

305
00:17:14,451 --> 00:17:17,695
people are actually plugging in their
plug-in hybrids.

306
00:17:17,695 --> 00:17:21,099
End of lecture and several people in your
audience have seen that already.

307
00:17:21,099 --> 00:17:22,900
Well, no, there's, we got it.

308
00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:27,302
There's so many things I want to cover,
but it's funny you bring that up because

309
00:17:27,302 --> 00:17:32,385
one, we had John McElroy of auto line on
previously and kind of go into exactly.

310
00:17:32,385 --> 00:17:35,707
And you said this on his show too, but
exactly what you're saying about the whole

311
00:17:35,707 --> 00:17:40,650
hybrid phenomenon, the whole concept would
be so much better market.

312
00:17:40,650 --> 00:17:42,491
And you get so many more people to buy
hybrids.

313
00:17:42,491 --> 00:17:44,672
Have you just said, this isn't a hybrid.

314
00:17:44,672 --> 00:17:47,553
This is just a car that gets you 15 miles
a gallon, and this is a car that gets you

315
00:17:47,553 --> 00:17:48,435
20 miles a gallon.

316
00:17:48,435 --> 00:17:48,876
Like there's.

317
00:17:48,876 --> 00:17:52,479
Partially there's now even the
politicization and the stigma of hybrid,

318
00:17:52,479 --> 00:17:53,841
but exactly what you're talking about.

319
00:17:53,841 --> 00:17:58,285
More people are just interested in, how do
I spend less at the pump versus even

320
00:17:58,285 --> 00:17:59,186
horsepower?

321
00:17:59,186 --> 00:18:04,912
Some of the other things that I think more
car focused people kind of think is what's

322
00:18:04,912 --> 00:18:07,394
going to be the big thing that sets cars
apart.

323
00:18:07,795 --> 00:18:08,009
And

324
00:18:08,009 --> 00:18:15,031
Prius taught the industry a lot, at least
one really bad lesson, which was, if you

325
00:18:15,031 --> 00:18:19,572
have a technically advanced car, it has to
look weird, or in the words of Detroit, a

326
00:18:19,572 --> 00:18:20,772
science project.

327
00:18:20,772 --> 00:18:25,153
Now, there were very good reasons they
designed the Prius that way, aerodynamics,

328
00:18:25,354 --> 00:18:32,736
and aerodynamics, but one of the reasons
the first Nissan Leaf came out the way it

329
00:18:32,736 --> 00:18:34,578
did was taking that lesson.

330
00:18:34,578 --> 00:18:38,980
that it has to be distinctive looking in
order to tell people.

331
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,162
You'll note the Prius sales have fallen
off a cliff.

332
00:18:42,162 --> 00:18:44,843
There are 20 or 30,000 a year, I think.

333
00:18:45,684 --> 00:18:50,647
That's because you can now get a Toyota
Corolla Hybrid relatively the same

334
00:18:50,647 --> 00:18:53,931
packaging within a few miles a gallon and
no one knows your...

335
00:18:53,931 --> 00:18:54,851
I think that's a great point.

336
00:18:54,851 --> 00:18:58,412
And then even go into the plug-in hybrid
stuff, there's really good data coming out

337
00:18:58,412 --> 00:19:03,173
of Europe where they were showing that
especially for company, uh, they, they

338
00:19:03,173 --> 00:19:06,474
were offering, maybe, maybe this was just
in the UK, but they were essentially

339
00:19:06,474 --> 00:19:12,356
offering incentives for companies to give
out hybrids as a work vehicle and so many

340
00:19:12,356 --> 00:19:16,358
people would just not only get a plug-in
hybrid, but they'd also get a gas card.

341
00:19:16,358 --> 00:19:20,199
So there was never really an incentive for
them to actually plug it in on a regular

342
00:19:20,199 --> 00:19:20,640
basis.

343
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:21,980
They're not paying for it either way.

344
00:19:21,980 --> 00:19:24,802
They just use the gas card and have to
worry about charging.

345
00:19:24,802 --> 00:19:30,025
Um, but I will say there is something
ironically vexing when you do see a plug

346
00:19:30,025 --> 00:19:34,987
in hybrid charging, even if I don't need
to charge at like a free level two

347
00:19:34,987 --> 00:19:39,950
charging thing that it is rare, but it
also just seems like why, why are you

348
00:19:39,950 --> 00:19:40,711
doing it?

349
00:19:40,711 --> 00:19:41,212
I, I don't know.

350
00:19:41,212 --> 00:19:42,292
That's I know.

351
00:19:42,690 --> 00:19:46,139
this is going to veer dangerously close
into religious belief.

352
00:19:46,139 --> 00:19:46,805
Next topic.

353
00:19:46,805 --> 00:19:48,945
Exactly, exactly, totally.

354
00:19:49,765 --> 00:19:53,186
With that, you know, one of the things
that I think is really interesting about

355
00:19:53,186 --> 00:19:56,207
your background is you actually have an
engineering degree.

356
00:19:56,487 --> 00:20:03,109
And I feel like so many people in the
automotive space, especially when it comes

357
00:20:03,109 --> 00:20:08,631
to electric vehicles really struggle with
seeing what the value or even the

358
00:20:08,631 --> 00:20:10,251
advantage to an electric vehicle is.

359
00:20:10,251 --> 00:20:13,972
And I think if you approach it or kind of
have an understanding of

360
00:20:14,209 --> 00:20:17,810
as you kind of go into the conversation,
it really gives you a strong foundation of

361
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:22,532
the value and then you can actually
essentially educate others pretty quickly

362
00:20:22,532 --> 00:20:27,754
as to what the value and the advantage of
going to an electric vehicle is, whether

363
00:20:27,754 --> 00:20:32,016
that be financial, whether that be
performance, yada, yada.

364
00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:36,818
What I'm kind of curious about is someone
who is in a journalist in the space and

365
00:20:36,818 --> 00:20:37,818
has a lot of influence.

366
00:20:37,818 --> 00:20:42,401
Do you think more auto journalists should
have really have almost be required?

367
00:20:42,401 --> 00:20:45,784
to have like an engineering degree or some
sort of kind of background like that,

368
00:20:45,784 --> 00:20:51,050
because I have been consistently
disappointed by auto journalists in their

369
00:20:51,050 --> 00:20:54,014
ability to effectively cover electric
vehicles.

370
00:20:54,014 --> 00:20:57,338
And I'd be kind of curious as someone
who's really working in that space and has

371
00:20:57,338 --> 00:20:59,621
a lot of exposure to that on your own, uh,
for your thoughts on that.

372
00:20:59,621 --> 00:21:04,802
I'm not sure I can speak for the whole
panoply of auto journalists.

373
00:21:05,162 --> 00:21:08,923
There is an entire category of video
journalists.

374
00:21:08,923 --> 00:21:13,124
And honestly, I don't have enough time to
watch someone talk about a specific car

375
00:21:13,124 --> 00:21:18,506
for 12 minutes or 60 minutes, with a
couple of exceptions, Kyle.

376
00:21:18,506 --> 00:21:26,269
But I would say more of the auto
journalists I know have an engineering or

377
00:21:26,269 --> 00:21:27,270
technical background.

378
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:29,711
than journalists at large.

379
00:21:29,831 --> 00:21:36,235
Certainly not the majority, I don't think,
but especially a car and driver where I've

380
00:21:36,235 --> 00:21:41,798
been lucky enough to go to some of their
10 best testing and basically hang out and

381
00:21:41,798 --> 00:21:45,700
BS with the staff in between drive loops.

382
00:21:46,281 --> 00:21:50,203
There's a fairly high degree of mechanical
awareness.

383
00:21:50,243 --> 00:21:53,247
The issue is mechanical because there are
a lot of MEs.

384
00:21:53,247 --> 00:21:58,308
A lot of them came out of SAE Formula
Racing series or have built their own

385
00:21:58,308 --> 00:21:59,348
cars.

386
00:22:00,649 --> 00:22:03,229
The quirky ones do Lemons Racing.

387
00:22:03,229 --> 00:22:12,352
But you know, it's an electric vehicle is
a fundamentally different thing and it's

388
00:22:12,352 --> 00:22:16,953
still got suspension and electric windows
and seats and infotainment and all that

389
00:22:16,953 --> 00:22:17,473
stuff.

390
00:22:17,473 --> 00:22:20,415
But all of the powertrain stuff is totally
different.

391
00:22:20,415 --> 00:22:21,636
It's a battery electric vehicle.

392
00:22:21,636 --> 00:22:24,097
That is a different skill set.

393
00:22:24,277 --> 00:22:30,441
And I think the field of auto journalism
has gotten much, much better in about the

394
00:22:30,441 --> 00:22:32,062
last four or five years.

395
00:22:33,464 --> 00:22:40,108
I could be found to grumble, I grumble a
lot, pretty much through the 2010s, but

396
00:22:40,108 --> 00:22:47,854
things have really stepped up and I'm now
seeing some pretty sophisticated analysis

397
00:22:47,854 --> 00:22:49,737
from the more general automotive press.

398
00:22:49,737 --> 00:22:51,097
So it's getting better.

399
00:22:51,097 --> 00:22:52,477
It's a process.

400
00:22:52,957 --> 00:22:59,939
Nationally, electric cars are still only
8% of sales last year, of which about 2%

401
00:22:59,939 --> 00:23:03,260
plug-in hybrids, 6% battery electrics.

402
00:23:03,260 --> 00:23:08,062
So there are more cars that are
turbocharged sold every year than there

403
00:23:08,062 --> 00:23:10,822
are electric cars last year.

404
00:23:10,822 --> 00:23:12,823
So it's a process.

405
00:23:12,823 --> 00:23:13,724
It's an evolution.

406
00:23:13,724 --> 00:23:16,325
There's also the issue that, first and
foremost, as a journalist,

407
00:23:16,325 --> 00:23:18,165
You gotta be able to tell stories.

408
00:23:18,506 --> 00:23:24,169
And, you know, I've had the odd young
journalists come to me and say, what do I

409
00:23:24,169 --> 00:23:25,289
need to do?

410
00:23:25,790 --> 00:23:27,611
Right, you know, how do I write a good
story?

411
00:23:27,611 --> 00:23:32,693
And unfortunately, the flip line is it
gets a lot easier after the first 5,000.

412
00:23:33,714 --> 00:23:38,317
I wrote 4,600 stories in nine years
running green car reports and I edited it

413
00:23:38,317 --> 00:23:39,397
in one year, 7,500.

414
00:23:40,018 --> 00:23:44,641
So, you know, after a while, it's kind of
like riding a bicycle, I like to think.

415
00:23:44,641 --> 00:23:46,222
But it's getting better.

416
00:23:46,222 --> 00:23:48,925
Auto journalists should have technical
awareness.

417
00:23:49,306 --> 00:23:54,231
And those who race drive, which is a
minority, but those who are actually good

418
00:23:54,231 --> 00:23:57,818
on track, generally have a much greater
understanding of how cars actually work.

419
00:23:57,818 --> 00:23:57,918
Yeah.

420
00:23:57,918 --> 00:24:01,999
And I guess I didn't mean it to sound so
pessimistic and I would also agree with

421
00:24:01,999 --> 00:24:02,159
you.

422
00:24:02,159 --> 00:24:05,199
It has definitely come a long ways and
been more positive.

423
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:13,242
I just kind of feel like, um, some of it
is definitely, uh, education and the

424
00:24:13,242 --> 00:24:17,203
efficiency and conveying the message and
value of electric vehicles.

425
00:24:17,203 --> 00:24:22,284
But I also do find that there is, I don't
want to say it's generational either, but

426
00:24:22,284 --> 00:24:24,307
there isn't really interesting, I guess,
value.

427
00:24:24,307 --> 00:24:29,511
Disconnect or understanding the value for
the consumer I mean, I hate to use it as

428
00:24:29,511 --> 00:24:32,714
the example But I think a big one would be
Tesla where it's like so much of it is

429
00:24:32,714 --> 00:24:36,757
through the app and I think a lot Of like
traditional car people that can make some

430
00:24:36,757 --> 00:24:40,360
cringe and they think of it as an
appliance and I can kind of get that but

431
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:46,225
for the average person who thinks of their
car as an appliance or as a Convenience or

432
00:24:46,225 --> 00:24:50,470
as a just a mode of transportation and not
really something they see for passion you

433
00:24:50,470 --> 00:24:51,532
can kind of look at this with

434
00:24:51,532 --> 00:24:55,774
Not even Tesla, I think any of the EV
starves, but especially the Chinese

435
00:24:55,774 --> 00:24:56,955
automakers.

436
00:24:57,315 --> 00:25:00,458
This is where I think there is a big
disconnect between a lot of the

437
00:25:00,458 --> 00:25:02,979
traditional automotive outlets.

438
00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:07,362
And, and I think to some extent it could
be generational buyer values.

439
00:25:07,362 --> 00:25:13,306
I would say kind of my, I know some people
older, so it's obviously very anecdotal,

440
00:25:13,306 --> 00:25:19,110
but like age group wise and younger, there
is a lot about like kind of that Tesla app

441
00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:19,872
experience.

442
00:25:19,872 --> 00:25:20,253
That.

443
00:25:20,253 --> 00:25:26,775
draws people to EVs and car brands once
they even know that that's an option.

444
00:25:26,995 --> 00:25:33,058
And I think if this makes sense, and I
think there's a lot in that value that

445
00:25:33,058 --> 00:25:39,861
these car brands are presenting to buyers
that I've just noticed that traditional

446
00:25:39,861 --> 00:25:44,723
automatic journalists are either mystified
by or don't think it's really a big

447
00:25:44,723 --> 00:25:45,464
selling point.

448
00:25:45,464 --> 00:25:48,706
And I think if it got more press, it might
also understand why like,

449
00:25:48,706 --> 00:25:53,287
consumer preferences and some of the
changes and why Tesla and some of these

450
00:25:53,287 --> 00:25:58,489
other EV companies have been selling EV so
well in the fact that it has become what

451
00:25:58,489 --> 00:26:03,391
is considered I think to some as almost
gimmicky is now almost considered a luxury

452
00:26:03,391 --> 00:26:09,014
feature that is presented with a lot of
electric vehicles and I know I can speak

453
00:26:09,014 --> 00:26:14,096
of that to when it like when I had to get
the tires changed on my car because I the

454
00:26:14,096 --> 00:26:17,237
Les Schwab was backed up for months I was
able to just do it through the app for our

455
00:26:17,237 --> 00:26:17,638
Tesla

456
00:26:17,638 --> 00:26:22,920
And there was a guy there two days later
who did in the driveway and maybe you're

457
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,440
short of a McLaren.

458
00:26:24,460 --> 00:26:28,182
I don't know any other services that'll
could just come right to you.

459
00:26:28,242 --> 00:26:32,283
And I think when people, I know other
people just kind of like my age group when

460
00:26:32,283 --> 00:26:35,184
they hear that, like, Oh, I want to get
that.

461
00:26:35,205 --> 00:26:39,486
And I realized that's kind of a another
level and there's price mediums too, but

462
00:26:39,686 --> 00:26:40,647
it is just interesting to me.

463
00:26:40,647 --> 00:26:45,449
And maybe this isn't so much as a question
as just a comment about it is fascinating

464
00:26:45,449 --> 00:26:46,371
to me that value.

465
00:26:46,371 --> 00:26:51,334
as a lot of auto journalists are, their
role is to show like why to buy a car over

466
00:26:51,334 --> 00:26:56,457
another, the whole spectrum of EV
ownership that I don't know if it's

467
00:26:56,457 --> 00:27:00,560
getting the right coverage or the right
message to consumers to make a fully

468
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,982
informed choice, if that makes sense.

469
00:27:03,982 --> 00:27:05,923
There's like 12 billion things to unpack
there.

470
00:27:05,923 --> 00:27:08,065
And so maybe this has just become its own
podcast.

471
00:27:08,065 --> 00:27:10,268
So I don't want to go down too much of a
rabbit hole there.

472
00:27:10,268 --> 00:27:12,468
I guess a few basics.

473
00:27:12,689 --> 00:27:19,411
The data show that most people view their
cars as a mix of appliance.

474
00:27:19,411 --> 00:27:21,732
And it's the fascinating thing about
covering cars.

475
00:27:21,732 --> 00:27:24,414
There's this highly functional aspect.

476
00:27:24,414 --> 00:27:27,515
I have a second kid, so it has to have
three rows.

477
00:27:27,575 --> 00:27:30,976
And it has to have at least umpteenth cup
holders.

478
00:27:30,976 --> 00:27:35,018
And what do you mean there's only two USB
ports in the rear seat?

479
00:27:35,018 --> 00:27:37,040
Stuff, really functional stuff.

480
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:37,241
And

481
00:27:37,241 --> 00:27:41,603
the not all that well understood
psychographic stuff about what a car

482
00:27:41,603 --> 00:27:47,006
signifies to the outside society about
you.

483
00:27:47,366 --> 00:27:50,788
And some people don't care about that, but
some people care a lot.

484
00:27:50,788 --> 00:27:55,791
There was this wonderful article, and I'm
going back 20 years, comparing minivans to

485
00:27:55,791 --> 00:27:56,811
SUVs.

486
00:27:56,811 --> 00:28:02,674
Because 20 years ago, the buyer pools
demographically were almost identical.

487
00:28:02,754 --> 00:28:05,858
Slightly above average household income,
they both had 2.4 kids.

488
00:28:05,858 --> 00:28:11,860
They lived in certain types of suburbs
predominantly, but psychographically, as

489
00:28:11,860 --> 00:28:14,641
the Brits would say, chalk and cheese.

490
00:28:14,821 --> 00:28:19,003
Because the minivan owners are like, this
vehicle is amazing.

491
00:28:19,003 --> 00:28:21,644
It has incredible room inside.

492
00:28:21,644 --> 00:28:23,345
I can carry anything.

493
00:28:23,365 --> 00:28:25,806
I can carry the kids and grandma.

494
00:28:25,806 --> 00:28:28,067
It's got all these great features.

495
00:28:28,067 --> 00:28:30,708
The sliding doors are really great.

496
00:28:31,588 --> 00:28:34,391
And the other side is like, oh my God.

497
00:28:34,391 --> 00:28:37,111
What would people think of me if they saw
me in a minivan?

498
00:28:37,111 --> 00:28:38,191
Patooy!

499
00:28:38,592 --> 00:28:42,733
And those are very different
psychographics, right?

500
00:28:43,373 --> 00:28:49,114
Most people are somewhere in this mix of,
it's gotta have A, B, and C, but it also

501
00:28:49,114 --> 00:28:50,955
has to say something about me.

502
00:28:51,175 --> 00:28:58,157
And you saw that double-edged sword most
acutely with the Prius, where it became a

503
00:28:58,157 --> 00:28:59,037
joke.

504
00:29:00,558 --> 00:29:03,700
One of my relations still calls them the
Toyota Pius.

505
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,452
And that was a South Park joke from 20
years ago, I think.

506
00:29:07,452 --> 00:29:07,673
So.

507
00:29:07,673 --> 00:29:14,718
The idea that a vehicle is an appliance is
important when you move from the early

508
00:29:14,718 --> 00:29:18,500
adopters to the mass market.

509
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:24,044
And to quote the invaluable Chelsea
Sexton, who is now working for the

510
00:29:24,044 --> 00:29:28,607
government, so we haven't heard a lot from
her lately, first and foremost, you've got

511
00:29:28,607 --> 00:29:32,129
to be able to sell an electric car as a
better car.

512
00:29:32,930 --> 00:29:35,453
Never mind the environment, never mind the
apps.

513
00:29:35,453 --> 00:29:37,915
Never mind any of that stuff.

514
00:29:37,915 --> 00:29:40,817
It has to be sold as a better car.

515
00:29:40,817 --> 00:29:42,339
And they are better cars.

516
00:29:42,339 --> 00:29:43,619
They're quieter.

517
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,102
They have punchier acceleration from a
stop.

518
00:29:46,102 --> 00:29:51,667
And even your aunt going to church kind of
likes winning the stoplight Grand Prix now

519
00:29:51,667 --> 00:29:52,487
and then.

520
00:29:52,848 --> 00:29:55,670
And, you know, they have a lot of things.

521
00:29:55,670 --> 00:30:00,895
Plus for that minority of Americans who
have dedicated off-street parking, you can

522
00:30:00,895 --> 00:30:02,017
charge it at home overnight.

523
00:30:02,017 --> 00:30:02,258
It's...

524
00:30:02,258 --> 00:30:05,739
you never have to go to a gas station,
which it turns out about half the world

525
00:30:05,739 --> 00:30:07,059
kind of likes.

526
00:30:07,379 --> 00:30:10,040
And it's much cheaper per mile.

527
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:11,760
Those are all good things.

528
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,821
They're just nicer to travel in.

529
00:30:14,101 --> 00:30:17,902
The challenge is going to be charging for
people in multiple unit dwellings, which

530
00:30:17,902 --> 00:30:21,703
is going to be a much bigger issue two
years from now.

531
00:30:21,783 --> 00:30:27,205
Once a huge slew of used EVs with
practical ranges, Tesla Model 3s, start

532
00:30:27,205 --> 00:30:28,025
hitting the market.

533
00:30:28,025 --> 00:30:29,026
We'll put that one aside.

534
00:30:29,026 --> 00:30:29,247
But...

535
00:30:29,247 --> 00:30:35,590
First and foremost, auto journalists, with
the exception of Consumer Reports, which

536
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:41,613
has its own slant, and a couple of other
outlets are not looking at it from the

537
00:30:41,613 --> 00:30:45,415
straight consumer point of view, they're
looking at it from the point of view of

538
00:30:45,415 --> 00:30:46,936
auto enthusiasts.

539
00:30:47,056 --> 00:30:53,600
And so automatically, that audience of
auto journalists, especially if they're

540
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,644
associated full-time with a specific
outlet, is going to bring some

541
00:30:57,644 --> 00:31:01,765
perception about who they're writing for
as compared to the public at large.

542
00:31:01,965 --> 00:31:05,866
Because I've been freelancing for so long,
I do both kinds.

543
00:31:05,866 --> 00:31:13,068
I do, you know, geeky stuff on battery
chemistries, and I also do really basic

544
00:31:13,068 --> 00:31:14,088
explainers.

545
00:31:14,088 --> 00:31:19,590
Car and driver, bless their hearts, was
shocked how well their explainers did.

546
00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:21,290
How does a hybrid work?

547
00:31:21,290 --> 00:31:25,353
You know, a hybrid is not an electric car
that you plug in, you know.

548
00:31:25,353 --> 00:31:31,515
and stuff like that because there is, and
one of the things that I take away from

549
00:31:31,515 --> 00:31:37,998
that is that the interest in articles like
that, a lot of those articles are created

550
00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:39,499
from search queries now.

551
00:31:39,679 --> 00:31:42,300
What do people go onto Car and Driver and
look for?

552
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,103
But the fact that they get such traffic
indicates to me that a much broader pool

553
00:31:48,103 --> 00:31:51,885
of people are now at least educating
themselves.

554
00:31:51,885 --> 00:31:52,525
Yeah.

555
00:31:52,817 --> 00:31:57,518
And this, this will be the last question,
kind of in tangential to all this, but is,

556
00:31:57,518 --> 00:32:03,440
uh, I, I totally get what you're saying
about the focus on automotive enthusiasts.

557
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,141
And that's really cool and interesting to
see it and make sense that there's a

558
00:32:06,141 --> 00:32:09,262
larger interest coming, the more general
thing.

559
00:32:09,462 --> 00:32:14,303
And is that just kind of because the old
kind of business thing that's like 20% of

560
00:32:14,303 --> 00:32:18,225
a customer base is going to be 80% of your
business that you think for a lot of

561
00:32:18,225 --> 00:32:18,486
these,

562
00:32:18,486 --> 00:32:21,735
traditional automotive outlets that they
just kind of focus on the enthusiast

563
00:32:21,735 --> 00:32:23,440
because that's going to be the main
subscriber.

564
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,847
That's going to be where they get the most
of their revenue.

565
00:32:25,847 --> 00:32:26,169
Usually.

566
00:32:26,169 --> 00:32:26,909
It depends.

567
00:32:26,909 --> 00:32:34,533
Any media outlet these days is a mix of
regular readers and what I call drive-bys,

568
00:32:34,533 --> 00:32:39,716
which are the people who search for
something on Google and get an article

569
00:32:39,716 --> 00:32:40,856
popped up.

570
00:32:41,577 --> 00:32:46,279
If, parenthetically, and I'll leave this
to one sentence, if in fact Google goes

571
00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:51,502
full tilt into AI and starts answering all
your questions for yourself on the first

572
00:32:51,502 --> 00:32:52,685
screen, many, many media

573
00:32:52,685 --> 00:32:52,987
sure.

574
00:32:52,987 --> 00:32:53,667
Yeah.

575
00:32:54,641 --> 00:33:02,886
So your ma or your uncle Fred who has
driven pickup trucks all his life or pick

576
00:33:02,886 --> 00:33:07,089
your stereotype, probably doesn't
subscribe to Car and Driver.

577
00:33:07,089 --> 00:33:09,731
And Car and Driver knows what its audience
is.

578
00:33:10,232 --> 00:33:15,956
It's a mix of what will people regularly
read for the ones that get the daily email

579
00:33:15,956 --> 00:33:19,280
or the daily push or the alerts on their
phone versus

580
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:23,520
What's the stuff that our search data says
people really want to know from us?

581
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:24,540
Right.

582
00:33:24,681 --> 00:33:28,244
I know I appreciate that and I appreciate
the insights in that.

583
00:33:28,244 --> 00:33:30,526
So we'll, we'll get to some other topics.

584
00:33:30,526 --> 00:33:33,108
I know that you're interested in talking a
little bit more about.

585
00:33:33,108 --> 00:33:39,195
So I know you recently had the chance to
test drive the Lucid Gravity prototype.

586
00:33:39,195 --> 00:33:40,936
What can you share about that?

587
00:33:40,936 --> 00:33:44,019
And I know from what I've seen, just kind
of like on Twitter and a couple other

588
00:33:44,019 --> 00:33:47,942
things, you seem to be a really big fan of
just the Lucid cars in general.

589
00:33:48,317 --> 00:33:51,282
If you could just share kind of your
thoughts on the brand, the cars and what

590
00:33:51,282 --> 00:33:53,168
this recent prototype experience was like.

591
00:33:53,168 --> 00:33:55,089
Sure.

592
00:33:55,089 --> 00:33:57,751
I was lucky to be offered that chance.

593
00:33:57,751 --> 00:34:04,717
It came with a number of caveats, no
freeway time, because the car doesn't have

594
00:34:04,717 --> 00:34:08,039
airbags and their lawyers got very antsy.

595
00:34:09,741 --> 00:34:16,086
And it didn't have air suspension, so
really my comments on the suspension were

596
00:34:16,246 --> 00:34:19,909
limited to a small box, and I had about an
hour with it.

597
00:34:19,909 --> 00:34:21,973
But that said, I had actually seen the

598
00:34:21,973 --> 00:34:25,895
demonstrator version, the fully built
version of the Gravity and was quite

599
00:34:25,895 --> 00:34:28,056
impressed in December.

600
00:34:29,096 --> 00:34:34,779
I'm fond of Lucid because they have very
smart engineers and they have really

601
00:34:34,779 --> 00:34:42,203
packaged their drivetrain, an extremely
powerful drivetrain, in a very small

602
00:34:42,203 --> 00:34:43,304
space.

603
00:34:43,344 --> 00:34:48,388
And they're actually, they have a side gig
selling that powertrain to other makers.

604
00:34:48,388 --> 00:34:50,550
Aston Martin has announced it's going to
use...

605
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:51,690
Lucid powertrains.

606
00:34:51,690 --> 00:34:56,433
So I think that speaks to the essential
quality of their designs.

607
00:34:57,634 --> 00:35:03,237
For those people who may not know, the CEO
of Lucid was the lead engineer on the

608
00:35:03,237 --> 00:35:04,717
Tesla Model S.

609
00:35:05,238 --> 00:35:07,099
The company no longer says it.

610
00:35:07,099 --> 00:35:10,741
In fact, they don't mention the T word at
all, ever.

611
00:35:10,841 --> 00:35:17,326
But at one point in their evolution, one
of their employees told me about the Lucid

612
00:35:17,326 --> 00:35:21,807
we want to make the Tesla Model S done
right.

613
00:35:21,807 --> 00:35:23,407
So there you have it.

614
00:35:24,968 --> 00:35:27,228
I like their vehicles.

615
00:35:28,128 --> 00:35:29,689
Part of it is design.

616
00:35:30,029 --> 00:35:35,390
Derek Jenkins, their lead designer at one
point said, "'We wanted to make a car that

617
00:35:35,390 --> 00:35:42,592
wasn't shouty.'" Shouty is a British term
meaning essentially brash, obvious, loud,

618
00:35:42,592 --> 00:35:44,333
you know, noticeable.

619
00:35:44,333 --> 00:35:45,735
And I think they've pulled that off.

620
00:35:45,735 --> 00:35:48,837
rarely the person to talk to about
interiors, but I love some of their

621
00:35:48,837 --> 00:35:51,838
fabrics, surprisingly.

622
00:35:52,019 --> 00:35:58,983
And overall, I just, I will never turn
down a chance to drive a Lucid because it

623
00:35:58,983 --> 00:36:01,345
is such a nice driving experience.

624
00:36:02,226 --> 00:36:06,368
The power of their powertrain is
demonstrated.

625
00:36:06,368 --> 00:36:11,552
I haven't driven a Lucid Air Sapphire, but
let's set the base here.

626
00:36:11,552 --> 00:36:14,816
This is about a two and a half ton, more
or less.

627
00:36:14,816 --> 00:36:22,640
four-seat Luxury sedan That will
accelerate you from 0 to 60 miles an hour

628
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:28,723
in less than 2 seconds I'm not sure I
actually want to experience that at my

629
00:36:28,723 --> 00:36:37,068
age, but my colleague Dan at car and
driver wrote One of the more glowing

630
00:36:37,068 --> 00:36:42,391
reviews I have seen in the outlet of the
car because it's really everything that

631
00:36:42,391 --> 00:36:43,472
car people would like

632
00:36:43,472 --> 00:36:47,214
And it's totally tractable for everyday
use as well.

633
00:36:47,214 --> 00:36:52,737
It's kind of like you can have performance
that leaves Ferraris in the dust, but you

634
00:36:52,737 --> 00:36:55,878
can also have this very nice luxurious
sedan that you can drive around and do

635
00:36:55,878 --> 00:36:57,539
your regular life.

636
00:36:57,539 --> 00:37:04,043
So Lucid's problem is that because they
had a funding hiatus and everything just

637
00:37:04,043 --> 00:37:08,865
sort of froze and they re-engineered
quietly on the side, they didn't launch

638
00:37:08,865 --> 00:37:11,889
with an SUV, unlike Rivian who launched
with a pickup truck

639
00:37:11,889 --> 00:37:13,530
more or less at the same time.

640
00:37:13,530 --> 00:37:18,032
They launched with a luxury sedan, which
in 2012 was fine for the Tesla Model S,

641
00:37:18,032 --> 00:37:23,475
but by the time 2020 rolled around, luxury
sedans were a declining category.

642
00:37:23,515 --> 00:37:28,598
So I think the SUV is gonna be the one
that really takes them to the next level,

643
00:37:28,598 --> 00:37:34,061
but they are also talking about their
mid-sized project, which is going to be a

644
00:37:34,061 --> 00:37:34,981
smaller SUV.

645
00:37:34,981 --> 00:37:37,664
You can really think of it as their Tesla
Model Y competitor.

646
00:37:37,664 --> 00:37:39,486
They showed one draped shape.

647
00:37:39,486 --> 00:37:39,817
Right?

648
00:37:39,817 --> 00:37:45,223
no real information, but I'm looking
forward to that one because that's a car

649
00:37:45,223 --> 00:37:48,549
that arguably I might be able to afford
and I really like their engineering.

650
00:37:48,549 --> 00:37:53,032
Yeah, I have always been really impressed
with their engineering.

651
00:37:53,493 --> 00:37:58,136
Personally, the styling of it, I have not
been as big of a fan of, but I know plenty

652
00:37:58,136 --> 00:38:00,919
of people that like them and I'm kind of
the more of the merrier.

653
00:38:00,919 --> 00:38:04,602
And I, like I said, I think the
engineering aspect, especially with a

654
00:38:04,602 --> 00:38:09,827
focus on efficiency is something that, uh,
Tesla's started with and did really well

655
00:38:09,827 --> 00:38:12,469
and it's great to see Lucid kind of take
it even further.

656
00:38:12,469 --> 00:38:15,171
And I think it's something that more
automakers, especially from kind of the

657
00:38:15,171 --> 00:38:16,993
traditional brands really need to put a
focus on.

658
00:38:16,993 --> 00:38:21,414
Um, just to really kind of get the best
value and the best distance and range out

659
00:38:21,414 --> 00:38:23,534
of, and the most of a battery pack.

660
00:38:23,534 --> 00:38:27,376
So I, I really do think, uh, like you
said, the team there is doing some really

661
00:38:27,376 --> 00:38:32,037
oppressive things and I myself haven't
been able to drive the Sapphire either,

662
00:38:32,037 --> 00:38:37,618
but everyone I've talked to just does seem
to, they won't stop talking about it and

663
00:38:38,359 --> 00:38:39,439
exactly.

664
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,662
And as much as the, and it's not like it's
a bad design, it's just not a design that

665
00:38:43,662 --> 00:38:45,985
Kind of, I guess I get what you're saying.

666
00:38:45,985 --> 00:38:50,971
Like I would say the original model S was
kind of like an understated, but nice

667
00:38:50,971 --> 00:38:51,932
design.

668
00:38:51,972 --> 00:38:57,039
The Porsche Tycon might be a little bit
more of that kind of brash and stand out.

669
00:38:57,039 --> 00:38:57,820
I like that design.

670
00:38:57,820 --> 00:38:58,582
The Lucid for me.

671
00:38:58,582 --> 00:38:58,903
Yeah.

672
00:38:58,903 --> 00:38:59,964
I love the Taycan.

673
00:38:59,964 --> 00:39:05,229
I mean, I would take it, you know, in the
world where I had money, I would take it

674
00:39:05,229 --> 00:39:10,594
in there over a Taycan just because the
Taycan is really cramped.

675
00:39:10,614 --> 00:39:16,901
But on the Taycan test drive, it took all
of 90 seconds to realize that the car had

676
00:39:16,901 --> 00:39:21,386
more acceleration and more road holding
than I had courage, which is fine.

677
00:39:21,386 --> 00:39:21,723
And.

678
00:39:21,723 --> 00:39:27,086
and the numbers coming out of this recent
refreshed icon are just absurd from the

679
00:39:27,086 --> 00:39:28,487
charging standpoint.

680
00:39:28,487 --> 00:39:33,429
Um, and as someone who has road tripped, I
mean, our daily is a model wide and it's,

681
00:39:33,429 --> 00:39:38,032
it's a, it's kind of like what I've come
to say is like, that's like the baseline.

682
00:39:38,092 --> 00:39:41,774
If it can't charge as fast or do these
things, I can't think about for the next

683
00:39:41,774 --> 00:39:45,676
car, cause I've driven from Bend, Oregon
to Phoenix, Arizona in a day, which is

684
00:39:45,676 --> 00:39:47,459
just a shy bit under 1200 miles.

685
00:39:47,459 --> 00:39:48,879
And it's a long day.

686
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:55,484
Um, but a big part is having a really good
charging curve, good speeds and stuff like

687
00:39:55,484 --> 00:39:55,724
that.

688
00:39:55,724 --> 00:40:01,008
And it could be better, but yeah, it's
just one of those things that, uh, I know

689
00:40:01,008 --> 00:40:04,570
we had kind of agreed to talk about
getting into the chart, uh, to charging

690
00:40:04,570 --> 00:40:06,091
space, but what else?

691
00:40:06,232 --> 00:40:07,792
Okay.

692
00:40:08,033 --> 00:40:13,038
And so, um, yeah, I think in my dream
situation, it would be the new Porsche

693
00:40:13,038 --> 00:40:15,600
Taycan and Fortanbao cars with unlimited
money.

694
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,643
And then be able to charge on the
supercharger network.

695
00:40:18,643 --> 00:40:22,067
And that would be like the ultimate road
tripping vehicle, but there was a big

696
00:40:22,067 --> 00:40:23,508
announcement this week.

697
00:40:23,649 --> 00:40:26,432
And I'm still not a hundred percent sure
how to pronounce it.

698
00:40:26,432 --> 00:40:27,254
Is it Iona?

699
00:40:27,254 --> 00:40:27,855
Do you know John?

700
00:40:27,855 --> 00:40:28,740
No idea.

701
00:40:28,740 --> 00:40:30,712
I call it IANA, but you know.

702
00:40:30,712 --> 00:40:34,614
I think that has been the consensus for
most people trying to describe it, but it

703
00:40:34,614 --> 00:40:39,777
is the, I guess, next step in the seven
different automakers that last year said

704
00:40:39,777 --> 00:40:42,398
that they were going to come out with this
charging network.

705
00:40:42,619 --> 00:40:49,823
And they are Mercedes, Stellantis, Ford,
Kia, Hyundai, and I'm dropping a couple

706
00:40:49,823 --> 00:40:50,324
others.

707
00:40:50,324 --> 00:40:51,324
BMW.

708
00:40:51,936 --> 00:40:58,561
and yeah, I'm missing one too, but Well,
and this is where I'm afraid I put in a

709
00:40:58,561 --> 00:40:59,341
plug.

710
00:40:59,341 --> 00:41:08,489
I did a four-part series last fall for
charged EVs magazine so It's called

711
00:41:08,489 --> 00:41:10,191
charging is changing.

712
00:41:10,191 --> 00:41:12,513
There's four parts to it to make it
readable, but

713
00:41:12,513 --> 00:41:19,015
I encourage anyone, I'll say a few high
points, but if you really wanna dig in, I

714
00:41:19,015 --> 00:41:23,176
was surprised at the favorable reception
on what is effectively a sort of a nerdy

715
00:41:23,176 --> 00:41:25,177
aspect to the EV thing.

716
00:41:25,177 --> 00:41:33,099
But I think broadly for charging, I have
been quite disappointed in North America

717
00:41:33,099 --> 00:41:35,702
in the entire auto industry outside Tesla,
which...

718
00:41:35,702 --> 00:41:41,166
fell back on its 100 year history of
outsourcing fueling to John D.

719
00:41:41,166 --> 00:41:48,632
Rockefeller and just sort of assumed that
a nationwide charging infrastructure of

720
00:41:48,632 --> 00:41:50,693
some sort would magically appear.

721
00:41:52,315 --> 00:41:56,759
It's actually from the hydrogen field, but
one of my favorite quotes is a Toyota exec

722
00:41:56,759 --> 00:42:02,325
who said, well, you know, it would be so
much easier to sell the Mirai, a hydrogen

723
00:42:02,325 --> 00:42:04,287
fuel cell vehicle only available in
California.

724
00:42:04,287 --> 00:42:08,550
if a hydrogen fueling cell infrastructure
manifested itself.

725
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:13,954
Yeah, well, you know, fueling and charging
infrastructure don't manifest themselves.

726
00:42:13,954 --> 00:42:15,756
You gotta spend a lot of money.

727
00:42:15,756 --> 00:42:16,957
Tesla knew that.

728
00:42:16,957 --> 00:42:24,383
They did a superb job of it within the
constraint of only having to charge four

729
00:42:24,383 --> 00:42:25,363
vehicles.

730
00:42:25,764 --> 00:42:31,329
And if you design all the charging station
hardware and all four vehicles and the

731
00:42:31,329 --> 00:42:33,031
software on both ends,

732
00:42:33,031 --> 00:42:35,631
That is a manageable thing.

733
00:42:36,311 --> 00:42:44,054
I want to say that while I understand why
Farley at Ford did the deal with Tesla to

734
00:42:44,054 --> 00:42:49,575
give Ford's access to the Supercharger
network, followed two or three weeks later

735
00:42:49,575 --> 00:42:57,479
by GM and I think various others, whether
and how that works is very much yet to be

736
00:42:57,479 --> 00:42:58,402
determined.

737
00:42:58,402 --> 00:43:03,364
I have seen some things from commentators
who want to know better who have said the

738
00:43:03,364 --> 00:43:08,487
charging wars are over The whole problem
has been solved Tesla has won Every other

739
00:43:08,487 --> 00:43:14,410
driver will see how Tesla how great
Tesla's are That is entirely possible.

740
00:43:14,410 --> 00:43:16,732
We are far from that time.

741
00:43:16,732 --> 00:43:25,616
And here's why Tesla is able to Understand
and constantly adjust both ends of the

742
00:43:25,616 --> 00:43:27,079
charging equation because

743
00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:30,320
it knows what's going on inside its
battery packs.

744
00:43:31,081 --> 00:43:38,066
When a non-Tesla pulls up to a
supercharger, that carmaker is not

745
00:43:38,066 --> 00:43:47,433
particularly going to want to lay bare all
of its battery protection algorithms and

746
00:43:47,433 --> 00:43:54,037
the rest of the software that controls its
EV, let alone give Tesla access to its

747
00:43:54,037 --> 00:43:55,440
customers, their addresses,

748
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,682
their VINs and all of the rest.

749
00:43:58,762 --> 00:44:05,287
So there are some really hard negotiations
going on right about now with Tesla and

750
00:44:05,287 --> 00:44:09,610
all of its different partners about, well,
no, we need to know A, B and C.

751
00:44:09,610 --> 00:44:11,931
No, actually, we're not going to give you
that.

752
00:44:12,172 --> 00:44:15,074
How it all remains yet to be determined.

753
00:44:15,354 --> 00:44:20,659
I will be surprised if the majority of
non-Teslas charge as fast at

754
00:44:20,659 --> 00:44:21,520
superchargers.

755
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,585
as Teslas do under the same circumstances.

756
00:44:24,766 --> 00:44:26,271
I hope I am pleasantly surprised.

757
00:44:26,271 --> 00:44:26,894
It could happen.

758
00:44:26,894 --> 00:44:29,917
Well, once again, you've brought up about
12 different things that I want to talk

759
00:44:29,917 --> 00:44:33,220
about, or can I remind you first, just
real quickly, you probably saw it when you

760
00:44:33,220 --> 00:44:38,545
talk about hydrogen and then earlier this
week, the, I think it was Shell who had

761
00:44:38,545 --> 00:44:42,309
like only seven hydrogen stations, but
made up like a third of the actual

762
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:45,032
hydrogen fueling stations in California.

763
00:44:45,032 --> 00:44:45,432
Yep.

764
00:44:45,432 --> 00:44:47,195
They said, ah, we're not going to do this
anymore.

765
00:44:47,195 --> 00:44:47,870
Right.

766
00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:51,531
my model for that was in the Pacific
Northwest, I think it was actually

767
00:44:51,531 --> 00:44:52,571
Seattle.

768
00:44:54,372 --> 00:45:02,035
You may remember that for about 15 years,
Honda sold a natural gas civic because

769
00:45:02,035 --> 00:45:07,458
natural gas is arguably one of the few
fuels that you can swap into a combustion

770
00:45:07,458 --> 00:45:07,799
car.

771
00:45:07,799 --> 00:45:11,480
No one was ever able to figure out a way
where people with natural gas service at

772
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:11,781
home

773
00:45:11,781 --> 00:45:17,503
could fuel at home as electric car owners
do, because the compressor required to get

774
00:45:17,503 --> 00:45:20,404
to, is it 300 PSI, I think?

775
00:45:20,404 --> 00:45:21,424
I forget.

776
00:45:21,644 --> 00:45:23,405
I may have that totally wrong.

777
00:45:24,186 --> 00:45:28,007
Is a large industrial compressor that you
don't want running in your garage.

778
00:45:28,907 --> 00:45:36,230
So as a result, all the natural gas civic
owners had to drive to a place and fuel

779
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:36,910
up.

780
00:45:36,951 --> 00:45:40,554
And indeed, the Seattle area had, I think,
four.

781
00:45:40,554 --> 00:45:42,555
And three of them ended up just shutting
down.

782
00:45:42,555 --> 00:45:46,937
People with natural gas civics had
essentially doorstops because they

783
00:45:46,937 --> 00:45:48,458
couldn't fuel them.

784
00:45:48,538 --> 00:45:53,721
So the hydrogen thing, just not that
surprising, which is why I think you could

785
00:45:53,721 --> 00:45:54,542
buy a Mirai.

786
00:45:54,542 --> 00:45:59,845
I hope not very many people did except as
a Curio because Toyota will take them all

787
00:45:59,845 --> 00:46:00,546
back and crush them.

788
00:46:00,546 --> 00:46:02,348
Yep.

789
00:46:02,348 --> 00:46:04,170
I think that's about all we have to say on
that.

790
00:46:04,170 --> 00:46:06,832
I mean, there was just a lot even around
the infrastructure.

791
00:46:06,832 --> 00:46:09,796
I know a lot of natural gas companies been
taught that I'm trying to go to hydrogen,

792
00:46:09,796 --> 00:46:16,542
but even then, uh, just the physics of a
hydrogen atom compared to the natural gas,

793
00:46:16,583 --> 00:46:19,726
there's so much you have to do to
retrofit, even make it work.

794
00:46:19,726 --> 00:46:21,509
I just don't see that scaling too much.

795
00:46:21,509 --> 00:46:21,659
Um,

796
00:46:21,659 --> 00:46:24,680
be clear, the problem with hydrogen cars
is not the car.

797
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,041
I have every confidence that over time,
the good engineers of Toyota and Honda can

798
00:46:29,041 --> 00:46:36,063
make a hydrogen fuel cell, tanks, power
electronics, small battery and all the

799
00:46:36,063 --> 00:46:41,285
rest of it that will package into where
you used to have an internal combustion

800
00:46:41,285 --> 00:46:43,765
engine with certain adjustments.

801
00:46:43,766 --> 00:46:45,146
That's not the problem.

802
00:46:45,146 --> 00:46:46,088
The problem is...

803
00:46:46,088 --> 00:46:49,511
the fueling infrastructure and the good
citizens of California have spent over

804
00:46:49,511 --> 00:46:54,204
$100 million for what was supposed to be
100 hydrogen stations by December 2020.

805
00:46:54,204 --> 00:46:55,204
than that.

806
00:46:55,645 --> 00:46:59,748
I think there was another comment now over
the last decade.

807
00:46:59,748 --> 00:47:05,252
But yeah, I think that's, let's, yeah,
yeah.

808
00:47:06,253 --> 00:47:11,519
Yeah, but I think it's also really
interesting what you talk about,

809
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:15,242
especially around data and the different
cars because the OEMs have kind of learned

810
00:47:15,242 --> 00:47:17,404
this the hard way through the infotainment
space.

811
00:47:17,404 --> 00:47:20,985
with Apple CarPlay, with Android Auto,
with just the amount of data that had to

812
00:47:20,985 --> 00:47:25,327
kind of go out to these systems about
their cars currently, that I think you're

813
00:47:25,327 --> 00:47:26,948
probably right.

814
00:47:26,988 --> 00:47:32,890
There is a high likelihood that there
probably will be definitely a pullback.

815
00:47:32,890 --> 00:47:40,954
But I mean, I wouldn't say I'm more
bullish on it, but I do think that there

816
00:47:40,954 --> 00:47:42,456
is, it'll be interesting to see what.

817
00:47:42,456 --> 00:47:46,398
Tesla requires, but now that it is like
the J 3,400 standard, it has become a

818
00:47:46,398 --> 00:47:50,740
little bit more clear as to what
information the car will be giving.

819
00:47:50,740 --> 00:47:54,943
And, um, there's obviously the opportunity
that the car could give the wrong

820
00:47:54,943 --> 00:47:59,546
information, but when you look at just the
existing public charging networks and the

821
00:47:59,546 --> 00:48:04,987
cars being able to tell those what they
need, depending on the thing that I think

822
00:48:04,987 --> 00:48:08,829
is usually the bigger issue and my big
thing about electric vehicles for them to

823
00:48:08,829 --> 00:48:09,592
take off.

824
00:48:09,592 --> 00:48:14,035
has always been, you look at this at any
disruption, for something to take off, it

825
00:48:14,035 --> 00:48:16,317
doesn't have to be just as good, it has to
be better.

826
00:48:16,317 --> 00:48:19,379
And one of the big things like with a
Tesla, you just plug in and walk away and

827
00:48:19,379 --> 00:48:20,480
it just does it.

828
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,663
I have tried that with other cars and
other charging networks.

829
00:48:24,803 --> 00:48:30,127
And I think only one time that the plugin
thing actually work, I think that will

830
00:48:30,127 --> 00:48:30,468
change.

831
00:48:30,468 --> 00:48:33,930
And I know that that's something that
allegedly Ford's trying to do with this

832
00:48:33,930 --> 00:48:34,833
Tesla deal.

833
00:48:34,833 --> 00:48:36,675
But yeah, I agree with you.

834
00:48:36,675 --> 00:48:40,880
There's still a lot that has to be figured
out and like actually even clarified

835
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,064
because there's been a lot of rumors as to
whether it's actually doing that or not or

836
00:48:44,064 --> 00:48:48,310
what is the facts of what will be the
options.

837
00:48:48,310 --> 00:48:50,233
What are you trying to say or look out
right now, John?

838
00:48:50,233 --> 00:48:53,113
Oh, so two points.

839
00:48:53,154 --> 00:49:01,516
The first one is you mentioned SAE 3400,
which is the Tesla standard.

840
00:49:01,756 --> 00:49:05,457
Nax, they called it well before it was a
standard, but it is a standard now, so I

841
00:49:05,457 --> 00:49:06,717
will call it Nax.

842
00:49:09,478 --> 00:49:16,160
My understanding is that by and large, SAE
3400 version one, which is what we have

843
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:17,862
now, was essentially the phone book.

844
00:49:17,862 --> 00:49:22,325
that Tesla dropped on the table, plus
explanations they had to give the

845
00:49:22,325 --> 00:49:27,629
committee to fill in parts that weren't
adequately specified.

846
00:49:27,950 --> 00:49:33,054
I think the interesting thing with the
North American Charging Standard is going

847
00:49:33,054 --> 00:49:39,500
to come when the next round of changes is
requested by all the car makers around the

848
00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:43,403
table and how Tesla will react.

849
00:49:43,864 --> 00:49:46,286
This leads to the issue that

850
00:49:46,306 --> 00:49:52,568
car makers are not psyched about the idea
that one of their main and most successful

851
00:49:52,568 --> 00:49:58,790
EV competitors is actually controlling the
fueling for their customers.

852
00:49:59,071 --> 00:50:01,572
They very much dislike that idea.

853
00:50:01,572 --> 00:50:04,913
And that is really where IANA came from.

854
00:50:05,213 --> 00:50:14,738
But it also reflects the idea that if you
get past early adopters who are in fact

855
00:50:14,738 --> 00:50:15,259
comfortable

856
00:50:15,259 --> 00:50:21,128
with driving into a prison lit Walmart
parking lot in the rain at midnight and

857
00:50:21,128 --> 00:50:25,075
screwing with the app till they get the
one charging cable that works.

858
00:50:25,075 --> 00:50:26,316
Or, you know,

859
00:50:26,336 --> 00:50:32,613
who doesn't want to drive their $250,000
Lucid Air or Ticon into a, yeah, right

860
00:50:32,613 --> 00:50:33,656
there with you.

861
00:50:33,656 --> 00:50:33,903
Yep.

862
00:50:33,903 --> 00:50:35,744
to have a better experience.

863
00:50:35,784 --> 00:50:41,328
For several years I've said look EV
charging has to be at least as pleasant as

864
00:50:41,328 --> 00:50:45,450
your average gas station, which has
canopies by the way.

865
00:50:46,071 --> 00:50:49,734
The canopies are not there to protect
customers, that's a nice side effect.

866
00:50:49,734 --> 00:50:53,997
They're there to hide all the fire
suppression stuff, but they protect the

867
00:50:53,997 --> 00:50:54,737
customers.

868
00:50:54,737 --> 00:51:00,602
So IONIQ came from that, but it also came
from this idea that Tesla can't control

869
00:51:00,602 --> 00:51:04,783
the entire North American charging
network, that would be a very bad thing.

870
00:51:05,183 --> 00:51:11,666
And finally, I wanna say, when I started
to research that four-part series,

871
00:51:11,666 --> 00:51:19,869
charging is changing, what came up over
and over again was the fury and the rage

872
00:51:19,869 --> 00:51:24,271
among automakers and Electrify America in
particular.

873
00:51:24,411 --> 00:51:29,177
Supposedly the reason that Farley at Ford
did the deal

874
00:51:29,177 --> 00:51:36,979
with Tesla was because he had called the
then CEO of Electrify America and

875
00:51:36,979 --> 00:51:44,141
essentially said, you are more than half
of the reason that all of our Mach-E

876
00:51:44,141 --> 00:51:49,462
customers are failing to charge, fix this
thing now.

877
00:51:50,002 --> 00:51:54,323
And essentially, it didn't get fixed to
the degree that Ford felt.

878
00:51:54,323 --> 00:51:56,905
So Ford was primed for, this is not good
enough.

879
00:51:56,905 --> 00:51:58,166
In some ways, I think Ford is

880
00:51:58,166 --> 00:52:03,129
more attuned to the actual driving and
customer experience, although GM has

881
00:52:03,129 --> 00:52:04,890
gotten very silent lately.

882
00:52:04,890 --> 00:52:08,652
I have my first interview with a GM person
in a while this week.

883
00:52:08,653 --> 00:52:14,577
But, you know, IANA is going to
theoretically make a nicer experience.

884
00:52:14,577 --> 00:52:21,321
I think it's funny that Electrify America
rolled out its sort of flagship charging

885
00:52:21,321 --> 00:52:25,644
station entirely indoors, which is
interesting, but not something you can do.

886
00:52:26,245 --> 00:52:27,287
This week, when IANA...

887
00:52:27,287 --> 00:52:27,867
announced.

888
00:52:27,867 --> 00:52:29,668
I'm sure it was just a coincidence.

889
00:52:29,668 --> 00:52:31,168
Coincidences happen.

890
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:36,432
But the last point I want to make is you
talked about plug-in charge, which is the

891
00:52:36,432 --> 00:52:40,133
non Tesla way of plugging in and walking
away.

892
00:52:40,194 --> 00:52:45,056
I have now experienced plug-in charge
because I checked for it on the Ford

893
00:52:45,056 --> 00:52:54,463
Mach-E, the Ford F-150 Lightning, the
Porsche Taycan, the Mercedes-Benz EQS, the

894
00:52:54,463 --> 00:52:55,204
Lucid Air

895
00:52:55,204 --> 00:53:01,686
and I may be forgetting one other, maybe
another car from one of those brands, I

896
00:53:01,686 --> 00:53:08,109
can't remember, but it does exist when
both sides of the party wanted to

897
00:53:08,109 --> 00:53:11,930
electrify America had to bring it up on
its stations.

898
00:53:11,930 --> 00:53:17,953
I gather EVgo is going to do some of that
as well, but no question at all that plug

899
00:53:17,953 --> 00:53:24,097
it in and walk away is the only viable way
to do it, along with routing you between

900
00:53:24,097 --> 00:53:27,578
charging stations and that is starting to
happen as well.

901
00:53:28,099 --> 00:53:33,021
To very varying degrees among different
car makers.

902
00:53:33,021 --> 00:53:38,204
Worth noting here that Hyundai pushed an
over the air update to various of its

903
00:53:38,204 --> 00:53:42,106
electric cars that added that function to
its in-dash nav.

904
00:53:42,106 --> 00:53:46,329
So they are getting it, albeit not on a
schedule that I think a lot of us would.

905
00:53:46,329 --> 00:53:47,089
right.

906
00:53:47,089 --> 00:53:52,434
Um, no, and I, I think it's, I guess one
of the things I always try to do is like

907
00:53:52,434 --> 00:53:55,917
approach a lot of these conversations and
technologies from the point of the

908
00:53:55,917 --> 00:53:56,958
consumer.

909
00:53:57,318 --> 00:53:59,080
And it's really easy.

910
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,124
It's not fun, but it's easy to just go to
a gas station.

911
00:54:03,124 --> 00:54:06,266
You swipe your card, you put it in, it
works.

912
00:54:06,667 --> 00:54:10,911
And the current status of EV chargers is
not that, um, especially the public fast

913
00:54:10,911 --> 00:54:11,893
chargers and even

914
00:54:11,893 --> 00:54:15,596
When you've been having to use like a
Tesla magic dock then you have to get the

915
00:54:15,596 --> 00:54:18,098
app and that's and I just don't think That
experience is good.

916
00:54:18,098 --> 00:54:23,342
I know that's going to change with some of
these some of these new Pedestals and

917
00:54:23,342 --> 00:54:28,887
charging pistols that they're bringing out
but I am Hopeful that plug-in charge does

918
00:54:28,887 --> 00:54:30,829
become a more universal thing because
you're right.

919
00:54:30,829 --> 00:54:36,515
It is it is a two Sided you have to have
the car talking and then you have to have

920
00:54:36,515 --> 00:54:39,457
the actual charging thing talking with
each other

921
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:40,425
And that has been.

922
00:54:40,425 --> 00:54:44,918
often a third party validation for
whatever payment mechanism exists, whether

923
00:54:44,918 --> 00:54:47,345
that's at the carmaker or a bank or what
have you.

924
00:54:47,345 --> 00:54:47,904
So yeah.

925
00:54:47,904 --> 00:54:50,805
that's that, that is kind of the thing
then that takes plug in charge.

926
00:54:50,805 --> 00:54:54,566
The next level is then it has to confirm
the account, uh, and all the account

927
00:54:54,566 --> 00:54:59,668
information, but I really do think that is
something that needs to be figured out and

928
00:54:59,668 --> 00:55:04,149
become that will be one of those things
that everyone I've talked to that is not a

929
00:55:04,149 --> 00:55:08,032
car or EV person, but it's kind of like
curious in getting an EV.

930
00:55:08,032 --> 00:55:08,912
It's those kinds of things.

931
00:55:08,912 --> 00:55:09,853
They're like, Oh, okay.

932
00:55:09,853 --> 00:55:10,873
I don't have to think about it.

933
00:55:10,873 --> 00:55:13,535
It just, I do it like once I put in my
credit card info and it just works.

934
00:55:13,535 --> 00:55:14,075
I get that.

935
00:55:14,075 --> 00:55:14,995
I can do that.

936
00:55:14,995 --> 00:55:21,399
Um, and I'm kind of cautiously hopeful
that will be more of the case because I do

937
00:55:21,419 --> 00:55:26,262
think one other thing, um, we haven't
heard much about this, but I, I know one

938
00:55:26,262 --> 00:55:30,024
of the things that Tesla has really put a
focus on that has kind of made their

939
00:55:30,024 --> 00:55:35,247
charging system, uh, effective is one,
they have the scale of it, but two, it's

940
00:55:35,247 --> 00:55:36,121
throughput is a.

941
00:55:36,121 --> 00:55:42,506
big thing for them and something that they
measure and that's where I do see that I

942
00:55:42,506 --> 00:55:45,649
kind of get what you're saying about
they're not being the same speeds but for

943
00:55:45,649 --> 00:55:51,415
them In my exposure and talking to people
I work there like their interest is they

944
00:55:51,415 --> 00:55:54,138
There's some interest obviously in what
car it's charging, but they just want to

945
00:55:54,138 --> 00:55:56,478
get that car through so they can get
another one in charging

946
00:55:56,478 --> 00:55:57,638
Oh, absolutely.

947
00:55:57,638 --> 00:56:05,043
And one of the things that frustrates me
about all the non-Tesla makers that are

948
00:56:05,043 --> 00:56:10,847
selling EVs, which is pretty much
everybody except maybe not, is their

949
00:56:10,847 --> 00:56:18,491
absolute and utter inability, despite all
sorts of PR blather, to educate the buyers

950
00:56:18,491 --> 00:56:19,413
of these vehicles.

951
00:56:19,413 --> 00:56:21,155
And a lot of that is down to

952
00:56:21,155 --> 00:56:26,097
our valued partners, the independently
owned and operated third party franchise

953
00:56:26,097 --> 00:56:33,760
dealership networks, because, you know,
car dealers, the less good ones have sales

954
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,600
staff turnover approaching 50% of you.

955
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:42,443
And so, you know, I hear an immense amount
from the car makers about, oh, but we have

956
00:56:42,443 --> 00:56:45,504
training or we give the guy an iPad.

957
00:56:45,504 --> 00:56:49,787
As like, so my favorite dealer in North
America.

958
00:56:49,787 --> 00:56:54,348
is Bourgeois Chevrolet in a relatively
remote part of Quebec.

959
00:56:57,088 --> 00:56:58,149
Love those guys.

960
00:56:58,149 --> 00:57:05,951
I was actually, I think I was on a roadmap
panel with one of them at one point.

961
00:57:05,951 --> 00:57:07,851
This is going back a little bit.

962
00:57:07,851 --> 00:57:14,353
But they, at one point, sold something
like half of all the EVs in Canada, and a

963
00:57:14,353 --> 00:57:18,695
majority of the EVs in Quebec, which is
really the California of Canada in terms

964
00:57:18,695 --> 00:57:19,233
of EVs.

965
00:57:19,233 --> 00:57:25,497
And the way they did it was by giving a
Chevy Volt to every new salesperson and

966
00:57:25,497 --> 00:57:30,339
dealership employee and saying, go home,
take it home for two weeks.

967
00:57:30,339 --> 00:57:33,161
You know, this is how you plug it in.

968
00:57:33,161 --> 00:57:34,582
This is the charging cord.

969
00:57:34,582 --> 00:57:36,022
Here's how it works.

970
00:57:36,022 --> 00:57:38,523
Not even level two, just the regular
charger.

971
00:57:38,604 --> 00:57:42,506
And for two weeks, people got it.

972
00:57:42,506 --> 00:57:46,349
They suddenly realized, oh, it's a regular
car, but I never have to go to a gas

973
00:57:46,349 --> 00:57:46,690
station.

974
00:57:46,690 --> 00:57:52,271
I can plug it in, that's really
inexpensive because electricity in Quebec

975
00:57:52,271 --> 00:57:57,773
is cheap and it's a provincially owned
electric utility.

976
00:57:57,773 --> 00:58:00,653
So people are sort of, it's our utility.

977
00:58:01,534 --> 00:58:05,215
And gasoline is really expensive
relatively, kind of like California except

978
00:58:05,215 --> 00:58:06,535
the utility part.

979
00:58:06,575 --> 00:58:12,376
And so people just got it and they became
the best and most effective salespeople

980
00:58:12,396 --> 00:58:15,259
for electric cars in a place, you know,
a...

981
00:58:15,259 --> 00:58:22,041
less dense part of Quebec that is not
necessarily your ideal EV use case given

982
00:58:22,041 --> 00:58:24,142
the weather.

983
00:58:24,142 --> 00:58:27,544
So most automakers can't do that.

984
00:58:27,544 --> 00:58:28,644
They don't have the interest.

985
00:58:28,644 --> 00:58:31,385
They don't have the dedication, despite
what they will tell me.

986
00:58:31,385 --> 00:58:36,307
And as a result, the dealerships remain
the weak point on education.

987
00:58:36,467 --> 00:58:37,808
Your point to Tesla throughput.

988
00:58:37,808 --> 00:58:40,609
Tesla owners have educated each other,
right?

989
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:44,312
You get there, you see it's 80% and you
tell the guy, hey,

990
00:58:44,312 --> 00:58:48,980
it's going to take a really long time for
you to get the next 5%.

991
00:58:48,980 --> 00:58:50,623
This is where you leave.

992
00:58:50,623 --> 00:58:53,048
If Tesla had, the car hasn't already told
that person.

993
00:58:53,048 --> 00:58:54,188
I think that's a big part of it.

994
00:58:54,188 --> 00:58:58,890
And that's from what I understand what I
am hearing, which I completely agree with

995
00:58:58,890 --> 00:59:00,611
you is there's a huge asterisk around
that.

996
00:59:00,611 --> 00:59:05,853
Allegedly, I saw one of these quotes and
it was Farley on, I think CNBC or some of

997
00:59:05,853 --> 00:59:10,995
it, but the idea is they plan to as part
of this deal include a lot of the actual

998
00:59:10,995 --> 00:59:14,616
information software in their software
like Tesla does when you roll up to a

999
00:59:14,616 --> 00:59:18,658
charging thing, whether that happens or
not, or to what level, but that would be

1000
00:59:18,658 --> 00:59:19,078
huge.

1001
00:59:19,078 --> 00:59:21,360
And that does do a lot of this for you.

1002
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:22,221
But what were you gonna say?

1003
00:59:22,221 --> 00:59:22,401
Yeah.

1004
00:59:22,401 --> 00:59:25,462
I was just going to say, I'm a big fan of
the Chevy Bolt EV.

1005
00:59:25,462 --> 00:59:29,644
If they had an all-wheel drive version,
which it was clearly designed for, I would

1006
00:59:29,644 --> 00:59:31,985
probably be driving one today.

1007
00:59:32,345 --> 00:59:35,727
You need all-wheel drive to get up my
drive in the winter.

1008
00:59:35,727 --> 00:59:43,570
But it's fast charging, which maxes out
about 54 kilowatts, is its main drawback.

1009
00:59:43,570 --> 00:59:48,752
How many EV people of the sort that you
and I know and talk to have gotten to a

1010
00:59:48,752 --> 00:59:49,593
charging station?

1011
00:59:49,593 --> 00:59:55,296
and had the bolt owner angrily tell them,
of course it charges faster on a 350

1012
00:59:55,497 --> 01:00:02,822
kilowatt than a 150 kilowatt, or insisted
on remaining there until they went from

1013
01:00:02,822 --> 01:00:04,923
92% to 100%.

1014
01:00:04,983 --> 01:00:08,205
You know, people don't know this stuff.

1015
01:00:08,205 --> 01:00:13,429
We know this, probably most of the people
listening to this know this, but the

1016
01:00:13,429 --> 01:00:18,541
education part has been historically and
continues to be the big deficiency.

1017
01:00:18,541 --> 01:00:23,644
in non-Tesla owners and frankly in some
Tesla owners too.

1018
01:00:24,345 --> 01:00:31,970
The guy who bought his Tesla and blithely
fast charged it 100% of the time was not

1019
01:00:31,970 --> 01:00:35,313
real happy with the result after 40,000
miles of range.

1020
01:00:35,313 --> 01:00:39,896
I am not surprised by that and I think
that makes a lot of sense and I completely

1021
01:00:39,896 --> 01:00:40,216
agree.

1022
01:00:40,216 --> 01:00:45,200
There's by no means is that system perfect
either and it is really interesting.

1023
01:00:45,861 --> 01:00:49,563
I think there's been a lot of promotions
recently that have kind of set some people

1024
01:00:49,563 --> 01:00:52,945
up for failure and set unrealistic
expectations.

1025
01:00:53,166 --> 01:00:56,068
I think the most recent thing would be
what we kind of just saw in Chicago with

1026
01:00:56,068 --> 01:01:00,973
so many of the chargers being kind of
overwhelmed and a lot of it was rideshare

1027
01:01:00,973 --> 01:01:02,162
drivers who were

1028
01:01:02,162 --> 01:01:03,842
trying this electric car out for free.

1029
01:01:03,842 --> 01:01:06,663
And unfortunately it creates a really bad
experience for them.

1030
01:01:06,663 --> 01:01:11,545
It makes it worse for existing EV drivers
and then it becomes a huge media and kind

1031
01:01:11,545 --> 01:01:12,686
of PR nightmare there.

1032
01:01:12,686 --> 01:01:16,727
Uh, but you're totally right around the
dealership because I actually even did a

1033
01:01:16,727 --> 01:01:19,068
podcast about this, uh, about a month ago.

1034
01:01:19,188 --> 01:01:23,470
My mom is looking to buy, uh, she always
buys like a new car, like every 10 years

1035
01:01:23,470 --> 01:01:23,710
or so.

1036
01:01:23,710 --> 01:01:27,832
And she's finally replacing her Mercedes
and she wants to get a new car, but she

1037
01:01:27,832 --> 01:01:29,652
wants it to be electric.

1038
01:01:30,053 --> 01:01:30,715
And we,

1039
01:01:30,715 --> 01:01:33,375
Test drove a lot of different vehicles.

1040
01:01:33,595 --> 01:01:37,717
We went from everything from a, I mean,
she's even a man, like she wants to spend

1041
01:01:37,717 --> 01:01:39,357
a decent amount of money, like 75, 80.

1042
01:01:39,357 --> 01:01:42,859
And so we've test drove, and it's the most
she's ever spent on a car, but she plans

1043
01:01:42,859 --> 01:01:44,420
to have it for at least 10 years.

1044
01:01:44,420 --> 01:01:48,902
And so we test drove everything from a
Rivian to Mercedes to all these different

1045
01:01:48,902 --> 01:01:49,382
electrics.

1046
01:01:49,382 --> 01:01:53,123
And we kind of came back to the Mercedes
electric, but it's funny because exactly

1047
01:01:53,123 --> 01:01:53,684
what you're saying.

1048
01:01:53,684 --> 01:01:57,005
The weird part was we worked at this, we
went to this Mercedes dealership and the

1049
01:01:57,005 --> 01:01:58,865
guy that helped her was Brian.

1050
01:01:58,906 --> 01:02:02,787
So he was great and knew all these things
about the EQE.

1051
01:02:02,787 --> 01:02:04,208
My mom was all about it.

1052
01:02:04,208 --> 01:02:07,409
She came back another time and then she
asked for Brian.

1053
01:02:07,409 --> 01:02:11,551
Well, it turns out there's five different
Brian's at this one Mercedes dealership

1054
01:02:11,591 --> 01:02:13,252
and in just the sales team alone.

1055
01:02:13,252 --> 01:02:16,113
And when I heard that, I was like, I
would, even if my name was Brian, I'd come

1056
01:02:16,113 --> 01:02:17,754
up with like a nickname.

1057
01:02:17,754 --> 01:02:19,434
I'm just like, I'm Nigel.

1058
01:02:19,434 --> 01:02:20,496
I don't know anything.

1059
01:02:20,496 --> 01:02:21,696
Just call me something.

1060
01:02:21,696 --> 01:02:21,837
So.

1061
01:02:21,837 --> 01:02:23,037
People know who I am.

1062
01:02:23,097 --> 01:02:26,459
And then fortunately the third time she
goes in, I go in with her and we

1063
01:02:26,459 --> 01:02:29,941
coincidentally at first sprint that meets
us is as she says the right Brian.

1064
01:02:30,281 --> 01:02:35,624
And, um, yeah, he was actually pretty
knowledgeable, but then hearing how bad

1065
01:02:35,624 --> 01:02:39,886
the experience was with this other Brian
almost turned my mom off from getting the

1066
01:02:39,886 --> 01:02:45,129
Mercedes electric altogether, just because
knowledge base and everything else was

1067
01:02:45,129 --> 01:02:47,892
clearly more interested in like trying to
sell her an AMG something.

1068
01:02:47,892 --> 01:02:50,817
And it's just, unfortunately, I'm a huge
hurdle.

1069
01:02:50,817 --> 01:02:55,699
My, the cringiest anecdote I've seen in
the last year was, well, but the sales guy

1070
01:02:55,699 --> 01:03:04,324
said that I could go from 10 to 80% in 28
minutes, and I could always charge at

1071
01:03:04,324 --> 01:03:05,164
home.

1072
01:03:05,985 --> 01:03:08,846
Both of those things are true
independently.

1073
01:03:08,846 --> 01:03:13,369
They are not related, because if you had a
fast charger in your garage, you dim your

1074
01:03:13,369 --> 01:03:14,649
neighborhood lights.

1075
01:03:15,170 --> 01:03:19,334
That said, I am now telling people, when
you walk into a non-Tesla dealer,

1076
01:03:19,334 --> 01:03:21,375
ask for the EV specialist.

1077
01:03:21,375 --> 01:03:25,717
If they don't have an EV specialist and
they say anyone can answer your questions,

1078
01:03:25,717 --> 01:03:27,157
find another dealer.

1079
01:03:27,617 --> 01:03:34,402
And if they say, well, she's not here
today, tell them, okay, have her call me

1080
01:03:34,402 --> 01:03:35,983
and we'll schedule an appointment and
walk.

1081
01:03:35,983 --> 01:03:38,324
No, I think that's great.

1082
01:03:38,324 --> 01:03:39,204
That is good feedback.

1083
01:03:39,204 --> 01:03:43,546
I mean, here's what's crazy to me too, is
this Mercedes dealership among other

1084
01:03:43,546 --> 01:03:46,948
places my mom was shopping is in the
Portland, Oregon area.

1085
01:03:47,228 --> 01:03:52,171
Like as far as being as easy, educated as
a market as one would expect, or it should

1086
01:03:52,171 --> 01:03:56,013
be, it's still kind of a sad state of
reality.

1087
01:03:56,013 --> 01:03:59,116
Um, but I actually really like that
recommendation.

1088
01:03:59,116 --> 01:04:03,078
Well, to close out and loop back to Matt
Teske, which was where we started

1089
01:04:03,078 --> 01:04:10,864
chatting, perhaps they didn't have the
chargeway beacon because, you know, Matt

1090
01:04:10,864 --> 01:04:15,207
has lots of stories about auto
salespeople, but the ability to answer

1091
01:04:15,207 --> 01:04:20,210
those questions with a smartly designed
device that says, here's all the charging

1092
01:04:20,210 --> 01:04:23,933
stations for your specific vehicle, here's
how far you can go.

1093
01:04:23,933 --> 01:04:26,377
And by the way, if you live in this
neighborhood,

1094
01:04:26,377 --> 01:04:32,825
your utility has this special offer,
that's stuff that all salespeople ought to

1095
01:04:32,825 --> 01:04:36,751
be able to do for EVs and a tiny minority
of them can.

1096
01:04:36,751 --> 01:04:40,117
So, have me back in a month and we'll see
if it's changed.

1097
01:04:40,117 --> 01:04:40,337
Yeah.

1098
01:04:40,337 --> 01:04:44,098
And I mean, I also kind of get it from the
perspective of the salesperson.

1099
01:04:44,098 --> 01:04:48,300
They have so much pressure to move cars
and do all this stuff.

1100
01:04:48,300 --> 01:04:52,562
And at the end, like unless you make there
more of an incentive for them to sell an

1101
01:04:52,562 --> 01:04:55,944
electric vehicle, it's going to be really
hard for them to have to go through all

1102
01:04:55,944 --> 01:04:56,185
those.

1103
01:04:56,185 --> 01:04:56,432
Yeah.

1104
01:04:56,432 --> 01:05:00,346
stiff the EVs more to reflect the greater
amount of time.

1105
01:05:00,346 --> 01:05:00,635
Yeah.

1106
01:05:00,635 --> 01:05:03,333
then also makes them more expensive to
make and sell.

1107
01:05:03,333 --> 01:05:07,008
Well, it's unclear if anyone's making
money on EVs beyond Tesla, but.

1108
01:05:07,008 --> 01:05:09,090
point fair point John.

1109
01:05:09,090 --> 01:05:10,491
I really have enjoyed this conversation.

1110
01:05:10,491 --> 01:05:15,055
There was a lot more I wanted to cover but
I realized we're kind of hit the time that

1111
01:05:15,055 --> 01:05:19,338
were allotted So we'll have to have you
back We we didn't get to talk about your

1112
01:05:19,338 --> 01:05:23,661
kind of work and fascination with British
cars because that's something I also share

1113
01:05:26,204 --> 01:05:30,027
I Was gonna say let's at least throw it
out there I want to talk about it more at

1114
01:05:30,027 --> 01:05:32,228
another point But let's at least throw it
out there.

1115
01:05:32,228 --> 01:05:35,332
Maybe it'll be the teaser for the next
time you're on but tell us real quickly

1116
01:05:35,332 --> 01:05:36,072
about

1117
01:05:36,719 --> 01:05:46,194
So Tempting Fate Tours, youtube.com slash
Tempting Fate is.

1118
01:05:46,199 --> 01:05:48,584
I'll make sure to put a link in the bio
for the podcast.

1119
01:05:48,584 --> 01:05:51,371
So if anyone's watching this, just go
there and we'll have that along with some

1120
01:05:51,371 --> 01:05:52,454
of these articles you referenced.

1121
01:05:52,454 --> 01:05:59,581
It's basically my friend Tom and I, and it
started when we got bad cabin fever.

1122
01:05:59,581 --> 01:06:03,485
So we decided to, he's in New Hampshire,
I'm in New York.

1123
01:06:03,485 --> 01:06:08,890
We decided to fly to Portland by two
Sterlings, a badly built British luxury

1124
01:06:08,890 --> 01:06:12,353
car from the 80s, and drive them to
Radwood, Austin.

1125
01:06:12,353 --> 01:06:13,375
Hilarity ensued.

1126
01:06:13,375 --> 01:06:16,059
We have several episodes, I think eight or
something like that.

1127
01:06:16,059 --> 01:06:18,980
Among them being driving through the
desert in Arizona and discovering the

1128
01:06:18,980 --> 01:06:22,042
event we were going to had been
rescheduled eight weeks later.

1129
01:06:22,162 --> 01:06:29,306
But, so we have just put up the first
video for the next adventure, which

1130
01:06:29,306 --> 01:06:38,331
happened last September, when we took a 69
MGB and a 58 Riley, which I've owned since

1131
01:06:38,331 --> 01:06:44,616
1980, on a Lemons Rally, which is 1,100
miles in three days driving through...

1132
01:06:44,616 --> 01:06:46,817
a lot of not very much in Maine.

1133
01:06:47,279 --> 01:06:48,780
So check it out.

1134
01:06:48,780 --> 01:06:51,223
We'll have five episodes, one a week.

1135
01:06:51,223 --> 01:06:57,410
And thank you for letting me plug this,
which in some ways is more amusing to me

1136
01:06:57,410 --> 01:07:02,106
than E.E.V.'s, but lots to talk about for
both next So thank you for all.

1137
01:07:02,106 --> 01:07:02,906
that sounds great.

1138
01:07:02,906 --> 01:07:07,449
And I think that is, uh, I mean,
inherently as someone who works at car and

1139
01:07:07,449 --> 01:07:11,091
driver, you do have to have a soft spot
for kind of classic cars and a combustion

1140
01:07:11,091 --> 01:07:11,512
vehicle.

1141
01:07:11,512 --> 01:07:16,034
So the EV is a great daily and there's
some great sports models, but to have that

1142
01:07:16,034 --> 01:07:19,857
kind of fun car on the weekend, especially
when you can have the time for it to break

1143
01:07:19,857 --> 01:07:23,138
down and have all of those things that
give it character.

1144
01:07:23,179 --> 01:07:27,516
Is what uh, having an EV as your reliable
daily vehicles so powerful.

1145
01:07:27,516 --> 01:07:27,657
But.

1146
01:07:27,657 --> 01:07:31,228
With that, I just want to say thank you so
much for being on today, and we look

1147
01:07:31,228 --> 01:07:32,542
forward to talking to you soon.

1148
01:07:37,536 --> 01:07:41,306
that brings us to the end of another high
voltage episode of the Grid Connections

1149
01:07:41,306 --> 01:07:42,536
podcast.

1150
01:07:42,536 --> 01:07:47,136
A huge thank you to our esteemed guest,
John Volcker, the contributing editor of

1151
01:07:47,136 --> 01:07:50,536
Car and Driver and just one of the many
well -earned titles.

1152
01:07:50,816 --> 01:07:54,116
I want to just say thanks to him again for
joining us today and sharing his

1153
01:07:54,116 --> 01:07:56,557
invaluable insights on the electric
vehicle landscape.

1154
01:07:56,557 --> 01:08:00,227
From the thrilling test drive of the Lucid
Gravity prototype to the critical

1155
01:08:00,227 --> 01:08:04,022
discussions on the state of EV charging
infrastructure in the U .S.

1156
01:08:04,022 --> 01:08:07,982
It's been a journey packed with knowledge,
foresight, and excitement for what the

1157
01:08:07,982 --> 01:08:09,282
future holds.

1158
01:08:09,442 --> 01:08:12,982
We hope today's episode charged up your
enthusiasm for electric vehicles and

1159
01:08:12,982 --> 01:08:17,463
provided a clearer view of the road ahead
for EV technology and infrastructure.

1160
01:08:17,463 --> 01:08:21,323
As the EV revolution accelerates, it's
conversations like these that illuminate

1161
01:08:21,323 --> 01:08:24,703
the path forward, sparking ideas and
discussion that drive the industry

1162
01:08:24,703 --> 01:08:24,944
forward.

1163
01:08:24,944 --> 01:08:28,624
Remember to subscribe to the Grid
Connections podcast on your favorite

1164
01:08:28,624 --> 01:08:32,484
podcast platform to stay plugged into the
latest developments in the world of

1165
01:08:32,484 --> 01:08:33,844
electric vehicles.

1166
01:08:33,844 --> 01:08:37,884
We also love hearing from our listeners,
so drop us a review or reach out on social

1167
01:08:37,884 --> 01:08:41,514
media with your thoughts, questions, or
topics you'd like us to explore in future

1168
01:08:41,514 --> 01:08:46,444
episodes, along with any recommendations
for potential future guests.

1169
01:08:46,604 --> 01:08:49,805
With that, thank you for tuning in and
charging forward with us.

1170
01:08:49,805 --> 01:08:53,010
Until next week, this is the Grid
Connections podcast signing