for Mississippi Happenings podcast.
Joining me each week is my friend and co-host, Jim Newman.
Hello, Jim.
Good morning, how are you?
Good.
Each week we discuss the kitchen table issues that all of us face in Mississippi.
Not only will we discuss those issues, but offer information from experts in the field and offer solutions and a plan of actions.
This week we want to discuss public education in Mississippi.
Our guest this week is Nancy Loom.
Nancy is the executive director of the Mississippi Parents Campaign.
She's held this position for the past 19 years.
The mission of the Mississippi Parents Campaign is to ensure that public school parents, educators, and supporters have a voice in the legislative and policy decisions.
that affect our children's education at a means by which they can hold legislators and policymakers accountable.
Nancy, thank you so much for joining us today, for joining us today in Mississippi and frankly around our nation.
Public education is being attacked and it appears to be on the verge of being
dismantled.
Please tell us about the Mississippi Parents Campaign.
Well, good morning, David, and thank you for having me.
Yes, so we were organized almost 20 years ago because of frustration with how legislators were voting at that time on the funding issue, public school funding.
And so we organized to engage parents, moms, dads, grandparents, concerned citizens, educators in the conversation about legislation and policy.
that affects their schools.
And so what we do is we read every single education bill that is introduced in the state legislature.
And we also stay up to date on policy changes that are proposed at the Department of Education.
And for those bills that we think and policies that we think are most critical to student achievement, we notify parents about those pending changes and let them know when
important.
Votes are coming up.
We tell them who their own legislators are and how to contact them.
So our job is to make it really easy for busy moms and dads and citizens to be engaged in this process, which is how our democracy is supposed to work.
You know, we elect these folks to represent us, but they can't read our minds.
And so it's important, we have an obligation to be engaged and to
talk to them, let them know how we feel about important issues that affect us in all kinds of ways, but the Parents Campaign's focus is on public education.
Fantastic, let me ask you this.
I just read recently.
Where Mississippi is ranked?
38th in the nation with pre K through 12 and that's according to the US News and World Report.
Would you like to talk about that?
I am so proud of our teachers and students in our public schools.
Those types of ratings that are put out by media outlets and that sort of thing consider all sorts of things and they
They go beyond the performance of our teachers and students in the classroom.
So they are not really an accurate reflection of what's happening in the classroom.
They consider things like, how well is the legislature doing in funding our schools and providing access to pre-K and that sort of thing.
And so they are very much skewed by things that our educators have no control over.
If you look at our national test scores, what's called the nation's report card, the national assessment of educational progress, and those results just came out a week ago.
And what they showed is that Mississippi students and teachers are really knocking it out of the park.
Not only has Mississippi shown more improvement than any other state over time, but
actual average test scores of our students now we are now outscoring most other states.
For example, in fourth grade reading we are ninth in the country in fourth grade reading scores.
Our math, fourth grade math scores are 16th in the country.
So our students and teachers are really doing an amazing job.
And that's not really very well reflected in the sorts of ratings and rankings that you mentioned.
Gotcha.
You mentioned the NAEP, the National Assessment of Educational Progress.
Recently, Press Secretary Caroline Levitt talked about the poor efficiency statistics.
And that was in an effort to justify the dismantling of the Department of Education.
Let me ask you this.
How would
If it comes to about, and it probably will, Trump will eliminate the Department of Education.
How will that affect those in Mississippi?
I would say it depends.
A lot of it depends on what Congress does.
So it would be possible for the US Department of Education to be eliminated.
It would be possible for that to happen and for not much to change.
The biggest dangers are really with oversight.
The funds could continue to flow through the appropriations process.
The Department of Education isn't absolutely necessary for funds to be able to flow.
But the primary benefit to parents of the U.S.
Department of Education is oversight.
We have very important laws and regulations that protect students that
the Department of Education is directed to oversee.
For example, special education, rules and regulations governing special education and making sure that those students are getting the accommodations that they need and
everything that they need in order to be successful in the classroom.
So those are the primary ways I think, Title I,
regulations that make sure that additional resources flow to schools with very high levels of poverty so that those students are getting the resources that they need.
So there are some regulations that are very important and I'm not sure who would be tasked with that sort of oversight.
It might fall to the State Department of Education, but without additional resources it would be difficult for them to take on that function.
Understood.
Thank you.
I understand that part of the funding for the Department of Education, and you hit on it briefly, was funded for like the Head Start programs.
And I know those are so vital and perhaps help us increase the reading levels that you talked about at the fourth level.
at that level.
Now, what about as far as, he also talked about children with learning disabilities.
How is the Mississippi Parents Campaign involved in that and are there some issues with our lawmakers concerning children with learning disabilities?
Well, if you're talking about federal funding, to be honest, if you're talking about federal legislation and funding, the parents campaign really only follows state level
legislation and policy.
So that is not something that I'm an expert in or that we have followed in the past.
If we get to the point where we believe there is a real threat to those children, that might be something that we need to...
to take on, but when we are relying on parents and busy people to be the ones to reach out to their legislators and have conversations with them about all of these issues, it
complicates that work to have them
trying to keep track of state versus federal legislation and state legislators versus their U.S.
congressmen and senators and so that's why we have focused largely on state level policy and legislation.
The federal piece is not something that we've covered.
In terms of our students with special needs, we've made a lot of progress with those children as well and
really started closing that gap between proficiency rates of children with special needs and their more typically developing peers.
So that their scores are improving right along with everyone else's which is really good news.
Great, thank you.
One of the things that I think that I wanted to also talk about and it's so important is funding.
How do our schools get that funding to operate?
So our public schools are funded based on a school funding formula that is in the law.
The legislature passed a new school funding law and formula in the 2024 legislative session.
Like the old law, it funds students on a per student basis.
The good news is that the new law actually funds our schools
based on enrollment.
So they are funded for every student that is enrolled in their schools, whereas they, under the old law, they were funded based on average daily attendance, which of course is
somewhat lower than actual enrollment, total enrollment.
So that's positive.
And the new law considers things like the characteristics and special
the different needs of the students enrolled in a given school district, the percent of students who live in poverty, and we know that they have fewer resources at home and so
they need more resources at school, the special education students and the type of special needs in a given school district, what percent of students have very severe needs that are
more costly to address versus less severe needs, that sort of thing.
So there are a variety of additional circumstances for which school districts get additional funding for the students enrolled in those programs.
And last year the legislature did fully fund that new school funding formula and that met an additional $216 million statewide for public schools, which was a very good thing.
School districts tell us it did shift the burden a little in some school districts, not all.
In the school districts with a stronger ad valorem tax base, where it's easier to raise local taxes, some of the burden for school funding was shifted to more toward the local
tax base.
And so local taxpayers are having
to assume more of the burden for funding their schools than they did under the old formula.
That is not the case in the lower wealth school districts.
Gotcha.
The old formula was the MAEP, which Mississippi Adequate Education Program.
Okay.
Thanks.
And what is the new system of the funding?
What is it called?
It's called the Mississippi Student Funding Formula.
MSFF.
Gotcha, thank you.
Now, how does the, let's talk about school choice and school vouchers a bit.
How does that affect the funding or the public education?
How does that affect public education?
Well, I'm glad you brought that up because school choice is the biggest threat to our public school system currently.
And let me say, I think we can all agree that strong public schools are very, very important to having strong communities.
Where we have thriving public schools, we have thriving communities.
And where we have struggling public schools,
we have struggling communities.
So strong public schools benefit everyone, all of us.
Whether or not we have children enrolled in the public schools, having strong public schools benefits all of us.
It affects our property values, it affects our crime rates, it affects our average income and our ability to attract employers.
So I think we can all agree that everyone, all taxpayers benefit when we have
strong public schools.
So with school choice, this is really not a question of whether or not parents have choices.
Parents do have choices.
Parents can choose public schools, they can choose charter schools, they can choose private schools, they can choose home schools.
So there are lots of choices out there for parents.
This is a question of what taxpayers will fund.
What are we going to ask taxpayers to foot the bill for?
And tax dollars are intended to benefit the public good.
They are intended to fund things that are open to all of us and that have some impact on the public as a whole, not an individual.
want or an individual benefit, the public good.
Public schools are public good.
We just talked about why that is.
They're open to all children.
Everybody can participate.
a better educated citizenry benefits all of us.
our public school teachers are doing a great job of that right now.
We talked about that with our really remarkable improvement in student achievement over the last 10 years.
Private schools are not, they're not designed to be a public good.
And let me just say right up front, I have nothing against private schools.
But it is a fact that private schools are not designed, they're not intended to be a public good.
They're not open to all students.
They are designed to be selective in their admission process and to serve the children that they believe are
good fit for their schools.
That is not a public good.
We also know that when, for example, when we're thinking about economic development, if a corporation is thinking about coming into a new community or relocating a plant or
expanding a plant, almost always they are going to ask how the public schools are doing in that community.
They're not going to ask how the private schools are doing.
They wanna know the quality of the public schools.
So the school choice legislation that you talked about, even though the school choice lobby wants people to believe that it is all about parent choice, the truth is that that
legislation really isn't written that way.
It is not written to give the ultimate choice to parents.
It is written to give the final say
to private schools.
It is all written from the perspective of the private schools.
It says that they are not required to disclose to these parents any data about the quality of the education that they provide, how they spend their funds, how they make their
decisions, the proficiency rates or...
absenteeism of the students that they serve, the legislation says that all of that is private information and they do not need to share it with taxpayers or with parents who
are considering enrolling their students.
And so we aren't even talking about giving parents information that they need to make good choices, let alone any kind of accountability for these schools and yet
The school choice lobby wants us to use our taxpayer dollars to fund those schools.
It also says that those schools are not required to admit any student that they don't want to serve.
So they are allowed to pick and choose the students that they enroll.
And so again, it's really not a question of parent choice.
It's a question of what we want taxpayers to pay for.
Private schools actually have several means by which they limit the choices of parents.
For example, we mentioned denying admission.
They raise tuition beyond what the voucher will cover.
And certainly that limits the families that would be able to take advantage of a school choice program.
Typically private schools do not provide transportation.
That limits the families that would be able to participate in such a program.
And many private schools do not offer specific services that families rely on, like special education services, interventions for struggling students, all those things that
public schools do provide.
They're required by law to provide those things.
And so it's a very unlevel playing field, if you will.
We believe at the Parents Campaign that any
school that is going to receive taxpayer dollars ought to operate under the same set of rules.
I think most of us would agree that if we were going to start from scratch and craft a brand new public education system or taxpayer funded education system, very few of us
would suggest that we should have
two separate and unequal systems both funded by taxpayers, one held to very high standards, have a lot of very stringent accountability to make sure they're meeting those
standards that is publicly available, it's open to all children, and then the other, no standards required at all.
no accountability to taxpayers, pick and choose the students that you want, but get the same funding as the other system.
Why would we have two systems like that?
It just doesn't make any sense.
But that is exactly what the school choice lobby is proposing.
Fantastic.
That's some great information.
know that our viewers really appreciate that because that's lot of that's information, you know, that we did not know, you know, no accountability.
They can pick and choose and, you know, the tuition and the funds.
Okay, all right good.
Yes.
Yes, please do.
school choice states, the states that have embraced the school choice idea and passed this legislation, overwhelmingly the data show that overwhelmingly those vouchers have gone to
families whose children already were enrolled in private schools before the voucher laws were passed.
We are not talking about
new choices that new families are making.
Overwhelmingly, these are parents whose children already were enrolled, they were already paying that tuition, had the means to pay that tuition, and so all of a sudden these
states are saddled with a new financial burden to pay the tuition of children who were already enrolled in private schools to begin with.
And in some states it is bankrupting them.
Arizona is a
example of that where they have had their voucher program is costing them close to a billion dollars a year.
all of that, like 75 % of those vouchers are going to parents whose kids were already enrolled in private schools and they are having to cut other programs and underfund their
public schools to pay for that.
And the taxpayers are unhappy about that and a good follow-up to that is to say
that in every single state that has put that question before their voters, there have been 13 states over the years that have actually had ballot initiatives to ask the voters if
they want a school choice program.
Do you want your tax dollars to go to private schools?
And most recently, there were three states that had that on the ballot in November, this past November.
Every single time that question has been on the ballot,
It has lost overwhelmingly so, including in November when Kentucky, Nebraska, and Colorado defeated initiatives, school choice initiatives on their ballots.
Wow, that's interesting.
Thank you.
So is it, read once, I read somewhere where it's unconstitutional, well, in the Mississippi Constitution, all of those public funds should go to, or are designated for
public education.
And would that mean that if we take those funds and we give it to private or charter schools, that's kind of breaking the law?
Is that fair?
Or how do they get around that if that's been done?
It's a violation of the Constitution.
Our state Constitution does prohibit any appropriation of public funds to private schools.
Unfortunately, you know, it is the legislature does sometimes pass laws that are unconstitutional and they are allowed to remain in effect until there is a ruling, until
there's a lawsuit filed and a ruling by the courts that it is in fact unconstitutional.
There was such a lawsuit filed about some federal ARPA funds, the pandemic funds that were appropriated for infrastructure and private schools, Parents for Public Schools, which is
a different organization.
It is not ours, but they do great work also for public schools, filed a lawsuit about that.
The lower courts,
agreed with Parents for Public Schools that that was a violation of the Constitution.
It went to the State Supreme Court and the State Supreme Court ruled that parents for public schools did not have standing to bring the lawsuit, that they didn't show that
there was actually harm to their families from that appropriation and therefore they didn't have standing.
And so the State Supreme
throughout the lawsuit and refused to rule on it.
Is that the incident where Attorney General Lynn Fitch gave $10 million to charter schools?
Is that the same thing or different?
Okay.
to private schools, not charter schools.
Okay, for our viewers, what's the difference between a charter school and a private school?
So the difference in Mississippi, and it varies from one state to the next.
Mississippi actually has probably the strongest charter school law in the country right now.
Let me say that this is important.
There is a bill that is pending in the House, the Mississippi House, that would substantially weaken our charter school law and make it much easier for
weak charter schools to be established and weaken the oversight and accountability.
So we hope that that law is defeated because right now our charter school law has pretty stringent standards for who can open a charter school.
They have to provide some evidence that they have not only a good plan in place but also a team in place that has experience serving well.
children who are coming from a low-performing school or are struggling in some way.
So our current authorizer, the Mississippi Charter School Authorizer Board, has done a very good job of adhering to those standards.
So our current situation is that in Mississippi, our charter schools are held to the same academic standards as children in our
traditional public schools.
They are relieved of a few of the restrictions that public schools must abide by, like teacher certification and that sort of thing, but they are held to the same academic
standards and rated the same way through the same accountability program.
So that's important.
They are allowed to be run by privately selected boards.
So their boards are not appointed by public officials or elected by the local school district, the folks who live in the school district.
They are privately run in that way.
So that's the primary difference.
Gotcha.
One of the things that I hear from parents who have their kids in private schools, they say, wait a minute, know, my tax dollars are going to, you know, my tax dollars are going
to the schools.
Why can't I take my money and put it
you know, and why can't I have that money and take that money and put my child into a private school?
How do you answer that question?
that goes back to the public good versus the individual benefit and that our tax dollars are intended for the public good and that's what public schools provide and those parents
do benefit from strong public schools.
Whether or not we have children enrolled in the public schools, we all benefit from strong public schools and so even if we don't and you know we
I probably don't drive on every public road in Mississippi, but my tax dollars go to fund those roads.
I haven't visited every single state park in Mississippi, but my tax dollars go to benefit those state parks.
We invest in all sorts of things that we may or may not take advantage of, but they provide, they are open to all of us and they serve a public good.
And private school vouchers just don't fit that, that
definition, they are not providing a public good, they are not held to the same standards.
If those schools want to meet the same accountability guidelines and be open to every student and operate under the same rules that our public schools operate under, then let's
have that conversation.
But if they want to close their doors to a majority of students in our state and operate privately and not disclose,
any accountability data to taxpayers, then they shouldn't be receiving taxpayer dollars.
Gotcha, that's a great answer and I'm happy to say that's an answer that I've also given to my friends who have kids in private schools.
Let me ask you this.
What would you like to see from our Mississippi lawmakers?
Well, let me say this too.
I think sometimes our lawmakers get a little bit of a bad rap.
Overwhelmingly, we are seeing strong support for public schools from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle in both chambers.
We know that we have great support from lawmakers for public schools.
Sometimes they get a lot of pressure from just a couple of individuals.
you know, to vote one way or another on these bills.
And that is why it is so important that we speak up, that the parents and the citizens and voters in our communities speak up and let these folks know what is important to us.
Because if we don't speak up, you can bet that that school choice lobby has established a very strong presence in Mississippi, and they are well funded.
And so you can bet that they've got folks speaking up.
And if we don't, then it gives the false impression that there are more people who would side with the school choice lobby than with public schools.
And that is absolutely false.
Overwhelmingly, the majority, I mean, we've got like close to 90 % of Mississippi's children who are enrolled in our public schools.
And those people,
Parents don't want their children going to school somewhere in another community.
They want strong public schools in their own communities.
They want their communities to be strong.
And so what we want is for legislators to hear from us and then to vote in alignment with that.
I think we're going to get there in most cases.
I feel good about that.
But it is incumbent upon us to make those phone calls and to make sure that our legislators know how we feel about those things.
Got it.
That's a great segue to, and you kind of answered that question, is what would you like to see from parents and supporters of public education?
We talked about the lawmakers.
And so what do we as parents and grandparents, what can we do?
You know, it is so important that we help lawmakers understand what things actually will help.
We do have some struggling schools.
mean, Mississippi, have very few struggling school districts overall.
We have, I think, two F-rated school districts in the state now out of 140.
And so, you know, most of our school districts really are doing very, very well.
But we do have a few, some struggling schools.
And it is incumbent upon the legislature to improve those schools, help those schools get what they need to improve so that all of those students can have great schools.
mean, rather than crafting some school choice legislation that will allow two or three of them to leave, why wouldn't we just do the things that we know will improve the school for
all children?
And here are some of those things that would help.
Every student deserves a great facility to learn in, but we know that some communities do not have the kind of local tax base to be able to build or repair their school facilities.
But right now, we have no state funding at all going to facilities.
That is completely up to the local taxpayers to provide school facilities for their children.
So let's, if we've got extra money to spend,
let in the state or to reduce our revenue by cutting income taxes, then if you think we've got too much money, then the state should be ensuring that every single child has a great
facility to learn in.
We should make sure that struggling schools have dedicated literacy and math coaches.
We have absolutely proven in Mississippi that that is a way to improve literacy and math.
And so we know it works.
Let's invest more in literacy and math coaches.
The teacher shortage is real, especially in some of our very, very rural school districts.
So where we have struggling schools, let's pay teachers more to go teach in those struggling schools.
And I'm not talking about $2,000 a year more because nobody is going to move to a different community for $2,000 a year.
We're talking about a $10,000 a year supplement for teaching in a struggling school.
High quality after school programs for children to go after school and mom and dad are working two or three jobs.
Let's have a great safe place for kids to go to get help with homework, tutoring, that sort of thing.
These are all things that are proven to work.
Here's what is proven not to work.
School choice.
I mentioned earlier,
Mississippi's recent test scores and how well we're doing.
What your listeners need to understand is how poorly school choice states are doing.
All of them are moving backward.
Why would we think that we can improve our states by implementing policies that are taking other states backward?
So what we want moms and dads and concerned citizens to do
is to help legislators understand the things that really will help all children in Mississippi.
Great facilities, dedicated literacy and math coaches, high quality teachers in every single classroom, and that's probably going to take some significant supplements for
teaching in struggling schools, and high quality after school programs.
Let's invest in those things.
And I think if we help to plant those seeds,
and they keep hearing that from their voters back home, we can get there and just imagine where Mississippi will end up in our national rankings if we do those things.
We can be first in everything.
That's what we want.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Nancy, this has been such a pleasure to talk to you and to let, we share your passion, and I, and we share your passion for public education.
And we thank you so much for being with us today.
Now, remind me, what is your website?
So people can find us either by Googling the Parents Campaign or by going to msparentscampaign.org.
Fantastic, thank you.
Thank you so much for that.
I also want to thank our subscribers and our supporters.
Today I wanted to talk about Alley Ejlali He is with Alpha Insurance in Olive Branch.
He can help you for all types of your insurance coverage.
He is headquartered in Islet Branch but can help you throughout the state.
And he can be reached at 662-893-0928.
If you would like a contact list of the Mississippi
lawmakers, you can email me at mshappenings1 at gmail.com.
That's Mississippi Happenings and the number one at gmail.com.
And also if you've got some questions, comments, and some ideas for discussions that you would like to talk about.
Please send me an email.
As usual, we want to...
Jim, have you got anything you want to say in closing?
I don't think so, think Nancy's covered it all.
Okay, good.
Okay, as usual, we want to leave you with this message.
May we never be indifferent to the suffering of others.
Thank you.