WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:13.346 --> 00:00:16.856 Sam Acho: Welcome back to the Sam Acho podcast featuring Cliff Marshall. 00:00:16.856 --> 00:00:19.646 And we have a very, very special guest today. 00:00:19.886 --> 00:00:23.246 Uh, his name is Tim Estes, and I'm actually gonna read a little bit 00:00:23.246 --> 00:00:26.246 of his bio because he's actually in a world that I think a lot of 00:00:26.246 --> 00:00:27.566 you all might be interested in. 00:00:27.566 --> 00:00:32.306 So, uh, Tim Es is a pioneering executive in the artificial intelligence and 00:00:32.306 --> 00:00:34.556 natural language processing domain. 00:00:35.096 --> 00:00:38.906 He founded and led digital reasoning from 2000, an AI leader 00:00:38.906 --> 00:00:41.786 in the space of unstructured data analytics for 20 plus years. 00:00:41.786 --> 00:00:45.836 ES is envisioned a means by which computers could learn to accurately 00:00:45.836 --> 00:00:50.426 interpret language, understand context, and extract critical intelligence. 00:00:50.426 --> 00:00:55.316 As you can see, we're gonna have a conversation about ai, but this 00:00:55.316 --> 00:00:56.906 conversation is a little bit different. 00:00:56.906 --> 00:01:00.236 So, since Tim's time at Digital Reasoning, he actually started 00:01:00.236 --> 00:01:02.276 a company called Angel ai. 00:01:02.276 --> 00:01:05.396 And specifically I think we're gonna talk about here, is this 00:01:05.516 --> 00:01:09.146 is this app called Angel Q. 00:01:10.076 --> 00:01:14.636 It's an app for kids ages five to 12 that protects them from some of the online, 00:01:14.636 --> 00:01:16.226 I'll call it predators, if you will. 00:01:16.226 --> 00:01:20.156 And Tim, you can even get in deeper that we see sometimes as we're 00:01:20.156 --> 00:01:25.136 browsing or on social media or even some AI generated, uh, information. 00:01:25.676 --> 00:01:29.786 And so, without further ado, Tim, we're so glad to have you. 00:01:30.901 --> 00:01:32.521 Tim Estes: Sam Cliff, thanks for having me on. 00:01:32.521 --> 00:01:33.331 This is gonna be fun. 00:01:35.036 --> 00:01:35.906 Sam Acho: Yeah, we're excited. 00:01:35.906 --> 00:01:38.426 And Cliff, I know Cliff, we were, so, cliff and I were talking beforehand 00:01:38.426 --> 00:01:40.646 and as soon as Cliff heard and I, we could have you on the podcast, he's 00:01:40.646 --> 00:01:43.856 like, dude, let's get it scheduled 'cause I've got some questions. 00:01:43.856 --> 00:01:45.476 Cliff is a father as well. 00:01:45.476 --> 00:01:47.996 I'm a father Tim, you're a dad on this podcast. 00:01:47.996 --> 00:01:52.376 We talk about faith, talk about family, talk about football, talk about finance. 00:01:52.646 --> 00:01:54.476 We try to go first, try to give space. 00:01:54.536 --> 00:01:55.346 We try to grow hope. 00:01:55.346 --> 00:01:59.066 And so this podcast is really critical to a lot of the topics. 00:01:59.066 --> 00:02:02.786 So Cliff, I'll let you go first as we start our conversation with Tim. 00:02:03.761 --> 00:02:06.791 Clif Marshall: Yeah, Tim, I'm so fired up again to have you on the show. 00:02:06.791 --> 00:02:09.011 I guess, you know, Sam just mentioned it. 00:02:09.011 --> 00:02:14.111 We talk on this podcast often about football, uh, you know, finances, 00:02:14.111 --> 00:02:17.591 faith, but today we're really gonna focus in hone in on the family 00:02:17.591 --> 00:02:20.261 because I have two kids, right? 00:02:20.531 --> 00:02:24.671 Uh, Sam is a father of four, and Tim, I know you are a father of two. 00:02:25.001 --> 00:02:29.801 And so I just see my kids a 10-year-old and a 14-year-old, and the interaction 00:02:29.801 --> 00:02:33.731 they have each and every day on the worldwide web, the internet. 00:02:34.301 --> 00:02:39.461 And so I want to know, number one, uh, about your family and then number two 00:02:39.761 --> 00:02:45.761 about how, uh, this Angel AI company, uh, was started and if your, your 00:02:45.761 --> 00:02:47.651 kids, how they would be affected by it. 00:02:47.776 --> 00:02:48.196 Tim Estes: Mm-hmm. 00:02:49.166 --> 00:02:50.426 Yeah, no, I'm happy to. 00:02:50.486 --> 00:02:54.566 Um, and so yeah, I'll probably share more here than I have in some other places. 00:02:54.626 --> 00:02:57.926 Um, you know, I, I, because of knowing some of the threats that are out 00:02:57.926 --> 00:03:01.256 there, you know, I'm fairly careful with what we talk about with our kids. 00:03:01.256 --> 00:03:03.866 You probably have similar kind of, you know, guidelines. 00:03:03.866 --> 00:03:07.406 Y'all, you want to be open and transparent with people and audience, 00:03:07.406 --> 00:03:10.586 but we also have a first obligation to protect our families, right? 00:03:11.471 --> 00:03:11.821 Clif Marshall: Right. 00:03:11.846 --> 00:03:13.136 Tim Estes: so we're always figuring that out. 00:03:13.526 --> 00:03:18.086 Um, so I've got, uh, two boys, nine and six and, um, and 00:03:18.086 --> 00:03:20.126 a lovely bride of 10 years. 00:03:21.206 --> 00:03:28.166 um, I, um, I think that, where did I, where to begin in this? 00:03:28.796 --> 00:03:34.046 Um, been in this area for a long time, uh, for, I started my first 00:03:34.046 --> 00:03:35.186 company when I was 20 years old. 00:03:35.846 --> 00:03:41.696 I was a third year at UVA and um, I, you know, I, I went on this journey where 00:03:41.696 --> 00:03:45.446 I got put in the weirdest place is from like classified, you know, facilities 00:03:45.446 --> 00:03:49.166 and going and finding terrorists with AI in the early two thousands, 00:03:50.006 --> 00:03:52.886 going into Wall Street and these like global banks like Goldman Sachs and 00:03:52.886 --> 00:03:54.626 others, and finding bad guys there. 00:03:54.986 --> 00:03:57.896 And so I spent about 20 years, like through going, you know, going 00:03:57.896 --> 00:04:01.286 through finding all these bad guys, uh, on different areas and then some, 00:04:01.286 --> 00:04:04.676 occasionally some really good things like using it to find like patients 00:04:04.676 --> 00:04:09.056 for, um, like potential cancer patients for HCA, like at, at scale, so as to 00:04:09.056 --> 00:04:12.626 find like grandparents and, uh, that might be sick and get to them sooner. 00:04:12.656 --> 00:04:19.106 So I spent a lot of time on that and, um, in that journey I got exposed 00:04:19.106 --> 00:04:24.566 to one particular effort, called, um, it was a group called Thorn. 00:04:24.866 --> 00:04:26.726 Uh, it's based outta Los Angeles. 00:04:26.726 --> 00:04:30.296 It's, you know, Ashton Kutcher, Demi Moore's charity, they focused on 00:04:30.296 --> 00:04:32.546 sexual exploitation of children online. 00:04:33.386 --> 00:04:35.816 Um, and the stories they told me. 00:04:35.816 --> 00:04:37.676 And so this is all happening before I'm a parent, right? 00:04:38.306 --> 00:04:41.636 So, you know, it's one of those things, you, we all have lived through the 00:04:41.636 --> 00:04:43.286 journey, all of us, multiple times. 00:04:43.766 --> 00:04:48.416 You're the kind, you're one kind of man, you know, and one kind of believer before 00:04:48.416 --> 00:04:51.146 you have a family, and then you're a different kind of one on the other side. 00:04:52.046 --> 00:04:56.546 Um, you know, there is no better force, uh, to bring about humility. 00:04:56.546 --> 00:05:01.106 I think that, that, you know, God intended than to give us kit, uh, 00:05:01.106 --> 00:05:06.536 because you feel like the limits of, um, your power in, in influencing that, 00:05:06.566 --> 00:05:10.226 you know, they have these independent people that they can be little people, 00:05:10.226 --> 00:05:11.456 but they're, they're their own people. 00:05:11.876 --> 00:05:15.356 Uh, and we get to kind of nudge them along and we get to watch 00:05:15.356 --> 00:05:16.826 over 'em, and that's stewardship. 00:05:17.306 --> 00:05:21.026 Uh, but at the same time, uh, you also feel a little powerless. 00:05:21.026 --> 00:05:24.806 Like you can't control, if you try to control it fully, try to shape it fully. 00:05:26.456 --> 00:05:29.816 you, you end up running into, you know, various limitations 00:05:29.816 --> 00:05:31.256 that are human and walls. 00:05:31.676 --> 00:05:34.196 Um, and there's a big bad world out there. 00:05:34.196 --> 00:05:36.206 I mean, there's a, there's a lot of goodness in the world, right? 00:05:36.206 --> 00:05:37.136 But there's a lot of badness. 00:05:37.136 --> 00:05:40.136 And, and, but that thorn experience, I brought it up and I walked my 00:05:40.136 --> 00:05:44.426 story to that point because came telling us about all these children 00:05:44.426 --> 00:05:48.026 that were being essentially trafficked for sex, like sold online. 00:05:48.896 --> 00:05:52.406 And so, uh, like Sam had shared this amazing Tim Tebow clip with me, you 00:05:52.406 --> 00:05:56.036 know, in the last week or so where, uh, he was on Sean Ryan's show and just laid 00:05:56.036 --> 00:06:01.616 out how really horrifically endemic like sexual material on children is spread 00:06:01.616 --> 00:06:04.316 over the internet and, and actively, I. 00:06:05.081 --> 00:06:06.941 were exposed by Thorn who had done the work. 00:06:06.941 --> 00:06:10.691 He interviewed survivors to all these kids that have been 00:06:10.691 --> 00:06:13.211 advertised as escorts online. 00:06:13.451 --> 00:06:17.501 We're talking like 10 year olds, 12 year olds the open internet. 00:06:17.651 --> 00:06:18.941 There's a place called Backpage. 00:06:19.271 --> 00:06:23.171 You could get to it, you could get to somebody's ad and call their pimp. 00:06:23.981 --> 00:06:24.821 clicks from Google. 00:06:25.691 --> 00:06:26.051 Okay? 00:06:26.051 --> 00:06:30.161 And it was out there for a decade, like doing nothing but evil. 00:06:30.431 --> 00:06:34.451 And we actually worked with them to find, uh, to build a system that 00:06:34.451 --> 00:06:37.151 would go pull all those ads and figure out which one were the kids. 00:06:37.271 --> 00:06:39.851 'cause you got, you know, escorts on there, which is still illegal, 00:06:40.061 --> 00:06:41.951 still wrong, but it's adults. 00:06:42.401 --> 00:06:43.631 And you got these children. 00:06:44.651 --> 00:06:47.981 And these children are the ones that are being like, you know, it's one of 00:06:47.981 --> 00:06:50.411 the gross egregious evils in the face of the earth to do that, children. 00:06:51.191 --> 00:06:54.671 And so, uh, so we got exposed to like how bad that was. 00:06:54.671 --> 00:06:58.511 And we built a system that literally crawled all those ads we had 00:06:58.511 --> 00:06:59.621 like a hundred million of them. 00:07:00.371 --> 00:07:03.851 sounds insane, that we literally had an index of a hundred million 00:07:04.241 --> 00:07:07.661 escort ads, probably a million or two that were unique and then, you 00:07:07.661 --> 00:07:09.671 know, copies upon copies of others. 00:07:10.331 --> 00:07:13.601 And I would, I I think we estimate one with like 6% were actually kids. 00:07:15.011 --> 00:07:18.401 And so just think about the math of that, of what that means in terms of how 00:07:18.401 --> 00:07:20.351 many kids were being sold in traffic. 00:07:20.351 --> 00:07:21.491 Two clicks from Google. 00:07:22.091 --> 00:07:22.481 Okay. 00:07:22.751 --> 00:07:24.731 So I, I come up before I'm a dad, right? 00:07:24.731 --> 00:07:26.741 With this kind of evil, like in my face. 00:07:26.741 --> 00:07:28.061 And we're working with law enforcement. 00:07:28.061 --> 00:07:31.391 We're trying to like, help them find these kids and take 'em down and, and 00:07:31.391 --> 00:07:32.681 Thorn's the one who deserves the credit. 00:07:32.681 --> 00:07:36.431 It was, um, thorn, you know, gave us the resource to build the system. 00:07:36.431 --> 00:07:37.391 They had the vision for it. 00:07:37.391 --> 00:07:40.361 We were just the technical guy, so could figure out how to build out parts of it. 00:07:41.111 --> 00:07:41.921 And, um. 00:07:42.596 --> 00:07:46.556 So then I become a dad you know, I'm naturally gonna be concerned about, okay, 00:07:46.556 --> 00:07:47.906 this is what can happen to your kid. 00:07:47.906 --> 00:07:50.126 You know, don't leave him too more outta your side on vacation. 00:07:50.186 --> 00:07:52.406 You know, that type of, of feeling we all have. 00:07:53.126 --> 00:07:59.426 Um, uh, and so this, this angel q uh, piece emerged as a second company. 00:07:59.456 --> 00:08:02.996 I got, I finished up the first, the first one in 2020 and, and kind of 00:08:02.996 --> 00:08:05.126 wrapped up, uh, in 21 with the acquirer. 00:08:05.936 --> 00:08:11.606 Um, 22, I came across this story, um, of a little girl named Nila Anderson. 00:08:12.296 --> 00:08:17.306 And so Nyla is a 10-year-old, um, you know, girl went to charter school, 00:08:17.306 --> 00:08:21.236 three, spoke her languages, really smart, and was just on TikTok, you 00:08:21.236 --> 00:08:23.846 know, watching dance videos, you know, 'cause it was just silly dance videos, 00:08:23.846 --> 00:08:25.586 like silly singing, whatever, right? 00:08:25.586 --> 00:08:26.816 That was all in the pandemic. 00:08:26.816 --> 00:08:27.686 All the kids were doing it. 00:08:27.686 --> 00:08:28.946 Everybody was being cool about it. 00:08:29.846 --> 00:08:33.326 And this, this algorithm served up a video to this little girl 00:08:33.326 --> 00:08:34.436 called a blackout challenge. 00:08:35.216 --> 00:08:36.986 And, uh, she never looked for it. 00:08:37.901 --> 00:08:41.981 This is something where the technology decided it was gonna put something in 00:08:41.981 --> 00:08:45.911 front of this little girl because it knew that this negative, like crazy 00:08:45.911 --> 00:08:49.031 stuff would get their, get her eyeballs and they could make money off of it. 00:08:49.511 --> 00:08:53.651 So the sweet girl goes into her mother's closet, hangs herself by, by her mother's 00:08:53.651 --> 00:08:57.311 purse, by the neck, like emulating this and suffocates herself, her mother Tiwan 00:08:57.311 --> 00:09:00.311 come home and finds her and takes her to the hospital, dies five days later. 00:09:01.421 --> 00:09:01.641 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 00:09:01.661 --> 00:09:04.991 Tim Estes: And, and that got to me, I, I I, I say this in a couple of 00:09:04.991 --> 00:09:08.621 contexts that that thorn thing back in, that it came in originally in 2012, 00:09:08.621 --> 00:09:10.361 so this is like 10 years before this. 00:09:10.571 --> 00:09:13.121 So 10 years earlier I had a moment of like, this is evil, 00:09:13.121 --> 00:09:14.801 not in my country kind of moment. 00:09:14.921 --> 00:09:16.061 Like, do something about it. 00:09:16.871 --> 00:09:20.261 And then this happens as soon as I get done my last company and I'm 00:09:20.261 --> 00:09:22.181 like, this is evil, not in my country. 00:09:22.181 --> 00:09:22.961 Do something about it. 00:09:23.651 --> 00:09:24.671 And, um. 00:09:25.931 --> 00:09:28.241 I was like, you know this, this can't be allowed to happen. 00:09:28.241 --> 00:09:32.351 And also when you're a parent, mean, I'm sure you all can identify 00:09:32.351 --> 00:09:36.101 with this, which is something bad happens to somebody else's kid. 00:09:36.101 --> 00:09:37.871 We don't go, oh, well that's just too bad. 00:09:38.051 --> 00:09:39.881 We think about what happens if it was our kid. 00:09:40.811 --> 00:09:41.321 Okay. 00:09:41.681 --> 00:09:47.381 God gives us this empathy encountering like suffering and having love for other, 00:09:47.441 --> 00:09:50.951 like our own close things to help us open up our hearts to other people, right? 00:09:51.671 --> 00:09:57.101 And so part of this is you encounter something that bad and yeah, it hits you. 00:09:57.101 --> 00:09:59.021 It's like, this could be like my 9-year-old boy. 00:09:59.861 --> 00:10:02.771 he might be overconfident watch something like this if he was 00:10:02.771 --> 00:10:06.701 allowed on that stuff, then that might be what I came home to, right? 00:10:06.701 --> 00:10:08.651 So that kind of, that, that stuck with me. 00:10:09.731 --> 00:10:13.991 and I think that what we, know, what we had this opportunity to do, you 00:10:13.991 --> 00:10:19.901 know, in this life to like, take those moments and let it activate us. 00:10:20.021 --> 00:10:24.881 You know, because is hard, like affecting something as big as like, you know, TikTok 00:10:24.881 --> 00:10:26.051 and all these kids exposed social media. 00:10:26.201 --> 00:10:27.401 Huge, huge problem. 00:10:27.611 --> 00:10:30.281 You know, truly Goliath, you know, scale problem. 00:10:30.881 --> 00:10:34.241 Um, and I'm just like, okay, I don't know where you're gonna take me with 00:10:34.241 --> 00:10:38.921 this, but I wanna put an AI between every child on the internet and give 00:10:38.921 --> 00:10:42.431 that over to the parents so they can know that something that's kind of working 00:10:42.431 --> 00:10:46.031 on their behalf isn't doing their job for them, but takes parenting online. 00:10:46.721 --> 00:10:49.841 And that's where Angel Q comes in is we, we, we thought of, okay, we could 00:10:49.841 --> 00:10:53.771 build something that would be an AI that would serve the family and it 00:10:53.771 --> 00:10:56.921 would be a way for kids to search and be curious, but be a hundred percent safe. 00:10:56.921 --> 00:10:56.981 I. 00:10:57.836 --> 00:10:59.246 and that's, that's kind of where that goes. 00:10:59.246 --> 00:11:02.846 So long journey, 25 years, I've tried to compress in the last maybe 00:11:02.846 --> 00:11:03.896 three or four minutes of that. 00:11:04.226 --> 00:11:06.416 But that's, you know, that's what got me here. 00:11:06.476 --> 00:11:10.136 And, uh, a little bit about like maybe me and my family and, and the 00:11:10.136 --> 00:11:12.686 things that, uh, actually drive us 00:11:14.966 --> 00:11:18.201 Sam Acho: Tim, just to follow up on that conversation, you talked about 00:11:18.201 --> 00:11:22.281 a couple of those, those like high mark moments tho or step that are ET 00:11:22.281 --> 00:11:29.421 in your memory, what was the process like of actually starting Angel Q? 00:11:31.616 --> 00:11:31.976 Tim Estes: well. 00:11:31.981 --> 00:11:34.586 Uh, so it's very different the second time around. 00:11:35.186 --> 00:11:35.516 Right? 00:11:35.516 --> 00:11:37.496 And so, so this was my second go at it. 00:11:38.516 --> 00:11:42.056 I had done decently from my last company, so I didn't come in kind of cold. 00:11:42.056 --> 00:11:43.976 I didn't come in completely unresourced. 00:11:45.236 --> 00:11:49.496 and so what happened was I, I heard that story and I started 00:11:49.496 --> 00:11:50.396 thinking about what would that look 00:11:50.581 --> 00:11:50.871 Clif Marshall: Okay. 00:11:50.996 --> 00:11:53.996 Tim Estes: ai that could be between the kids and the internet look like? 00:11:54.851 --> 00:11:59.141 I went to the people I knew, um, my, one of the smartest 00:11:59.141 --> 00:12:00.491 guys who had ever worked for me. 00:12:00.551 --> 00:12:04.271 Uh, my last company, guy named Brian, who became the CTO and is the CTO, the 00:12:04.271 --> 00:12:05.831 chief Technology Officer for Angel Q. 00:12:06.581 --> 00:12:10.511 Um, and he and I started like iterating and talking about how it might work. 00:12:10.781 --> 00:12:16.301 Um, and then uh, I shared also with, um, a woman named Randy, 00:12:16.301 --> 00:12:17.471 who's my chief market officer. 00:12:17.471 --> 00:12:21.911 She was the best mind I knew about how to reach people, build a brand, because I, it 00:12:21.911 --> 00:12:23.801 became clear to me if we're gonna succeed. 00:12:24.791 --> 00:12:27.821 We needed to think about how parents would, would perceive 00:12:27.821 --> 00:12:28.691 what we were building. 00:12:28.751 --> 00:12:30.491 Like AI could be very scary. 00:12:31.271 --> 00:12:34.481 how can you turn it into a positive tool for the parents? 00:12:34.481 --> 00:12:38.591 Like what are the values you have to have like imbued in that system and 00:12:38.591 --> 00:12:40.601 in your brand to make that stick? 00:12:41.381 --> 00:12:43.691 and Randy was the best brand mind I've ever had, and so she 00:12:43.691 --> 00:12:44.951 became my chief marketing officer. 00:12:45.761 --> 00:12:47.861 what you do is you go through and you find the right people. 00:12:47.861 --> 00:12:50.831 And then the, the last one was just fascinating, is someone I went to high 00:12:50.831 --> 00:12:57.641 school with, that, uh, I, I didn't know that well, um, but had immense 00:12:57.641 --> 00:13:00.971 respect for guy named Josh Thurman Josh. 00:13:01.031 --> 00:13:06.341 Um, he, uh, he had made the story, he'd gone to Wake Forest, uh, nine 11 00:13:06.341 --> 00:13:12.521 happens and he decides he's going to go become a Navy Seal, not a, not an easy 00:13:12.521 --> 00:13:14.231 thing to go, just decide on a whim. 00:13:14.231 --> 00:13:16.271 'cause he was actually going to like Yale Divinity School. 00:13:16.721 --> 00:13:20.051 So he, he had like, he's gonna med school or Yale Divinity School and then 00:13:20.051 --> 00:13:21.371 he ends up going, being a Navy Seal. 00:13:22.076 --> 00:13:24.116 Not only being Navy Seal, he ends up in Team six. 00:13:24.836 --> 00:13:27.956 So he ends up like on the real deal for 12, 13 years. 00:13:28.946 --> 00:13:31.766 I, I, I'd heard about him and I, I knew, like I said, I knew 00:13:31.766 --> 00:13:32.786 him from when I was younger. 00:13:32.786 --> 00:13:34.226 We had some friends that were in common. 00:13:34.646 --> 00:13:38.636 Uh, I was not a great athlete by any means when I was in, you know, in high school. 00:13:38.636 --> 00:13:40.376 He was an amazing cross country athlete. 00:13:40.376 --> 00:13:43.316 And you know, we had a lot of friends from that because I was like the cross country 00:13:43.316 --> 00:13:45.236 Water boy basically back in those days. 00:13:46.316 --> 00:13:49.676 uh, and so, so yeah, so I had, I knew him in respect, but I 00:13:49.676 --> 00:13:51.326 just honestly, so true story. 00:13:51.361 --> 00:13:57.506 I, I was at my, my, um, my oldest kid's school meeting with the headmaster, 00:13:57.506 --> 00:14:00.026 just, you know, normal check-in, you know, they inter they take, bring the 00:14:00.026 --> 00:14:03.146 parents in and once a year and like, give you just some feedback on it, whatever. 00:14:03.206 --> 00:14:04.286 All good stuff. 00:14:04.946 --> 00:14:08.966 And, uh, it came out that Josh was actually the roommate of 00:14:08.966 --> 00:14:10.106 the headmaster in college. 00:14:11.096 --> 00:14:13.826 And I, I, I have no better way to say it. 00:14:13.826 --> 00:14:16.946 It was almost like, you know, it was almost like from above it was 00:14:16.946 --> 00:14:18.146 like, Tim, you need to go talk Josh. 00:14:19.001 --> 00:14:20.771 And so I just randomly, I hadn't talked to him. 00:14:20.771 --> 00:14:23.201 I, I met him briefly in 2018. 00:14:23.531 --> 00:14:24.911 Hadn't talked to him since. 00:14:25.661 --> 00:14:29.231 Um, when he got out of the service, uh, he, he went and met with me when 00:14:29.231 --> 00:14:33.041 my ran my last company, uh, had a good rapport, but like, I hadn't talked to 00:14:33.041 --> 00:14:34.721 him in, at this point, like four years. 00:14:35.441 --> 00:14:36.191 And I was like, you know what? 00:14:36.431 --> 00:14:37.451 I think I'm gonna build this thing. 00:14:37.451 --> 00:14:41.861 Um, you have all this track record of execution, operational excellence, 00:14:41.861 --> 00:14:43.811 were the highest things on the line. 00:14:44.441 --> 00:14:46.271 think he could be an amazing operating partner with this. 00:14:47.291 --> 00:14:49.211 And it took him, he, he was actually involved in another 00:14:49.211 --> 00:14:51.821 company he helped found, so I kind of had to recruit him outta that. 00:14:53.021 --> 00:14:56.471 but, uh, but he found a, you know, he basically went ahead and, and, 00:14:56.531 --> 00:14:59.051 you know, made that call has been an amazing partner, you know, just 00:14:59.051 --> 00:15:00.971 like my other two founders with this. 00:15:01.361 --> 00:15:05.261 Um, so I think if I was gonna give you the, the baseline, gotta get 00:15:05.261 --> 00:15:08.681 your core team first, like your team and who you work with is everything. 00:15:09.461 --> 00:15:11.711 And so that was where I spent the first year. 00:15:12.626 --> 00:15:16.856 Um, then you got the people, the, so 2023 was the initial investment figuring out 00:15:16.856 --> 00:15:19.946 a little bit of the product, talking to a lot of people who didn't invest in it. 00:15:20.816 --> 00:15:22.886 you're gonna get 20 nos for everyone. 00:15:22.886 --> 00:15:23.156 Yes. 00:15:23.156 --> 00:15:24.836 Maybe you might get a hundred nos for everyone. 00:15:24.836 --> 00:15:25.256 Yes. 00:15:26.096 --> 00:15:27.176 Uh, it doesn't matter if you know. 00:15:27.206 --> 00:15:29.816 Okay, so last win around, I raised a hundred million dollars from my 00:15:29.816 --> 00:15:34.616 last company and, and created kind of the, the standard for compliance and 00:15:34.616 --> 00:15:36.176 surveillance in the top tier bank. 00:15:36.176 --> 00:15:38.336 So I had a decent track record from my last go around. 00:15:39.146 --> 00:15:42.626 Doesn't necessarily matter 'cause this go around's different, right? 00:15:43.286 --> 00:15:44.426 you're building an app for kids. 00:15:44.426 --> 00:15:46.136 Like if you went and built something for Goldman Sachs, 00:15:46.136 --> 00:15:47.246 we'd probably fund that again. 00:15:47.366 --> 00:15:48.866 You know, that's kind of how the attitude goes. 00:15:48.866 --> 00:15:53.876 So aren't necessarily motivated by, oh, this mission needs to get solved. 00:15:53.876 --> 00:15:57.236 It's, hmm, I heck, you're probably making a lot of money is good, right? 00:15:57.506 --> 00:16:01.016 And so we had to search and find the kind of people who believed. 00:16:01.466 --> 00:16:04.466 And interestingly enough, my initial investors were people that had 00:16:04.466 --> 00:16:05.726 been investors in my last company. 00:16:05.726 --> 00:16:07.526 They just decided, you know, we know you. 00:16:07.766 --> 00:16:09.116 We've worked with you 20 years. 00:16:09.566 --> 00:16:10.046 We're in. 00:16:10.856 --> 00:16:12.386 are people I didn't ask to invest. 00:16:12.386 --> 00:16:15.056 They like sort of said, yep, we went in and then that. 00:16:15.116 --> 00:16:19.046 So what I also say is when you're building something new, it's almost 00:16:19.046 --> 00:16:21.986 certain that the first people that back you, they just love you. 00:16:23.066 --> 00:16:25.436 I mean, they kind of will back you in whatever. 00:16:26.336 --> 00:16:31.136 so your character, what you bring into that, your track record, that opportunity. 00:16:31.706 --> 00:16:35.006 Um, so, so yeah, I, I think that, you know, getting the team 00:16:35.006 --> 00:16:38.516 together, you know, cooking up the idea in a way that's thoughtful, 00:16:38.606 --> 00:16:40.406 um, and, and getting it together. 00:16:40.706 --> 00:16:44.576 Find the people that basically will invest with love initially and then getting 00:16:44.576 --> 00:16:49.136 far enough, showing enough profit or, uh, progress that, you know, maybe new 00:16:49.136 --> 00:16:53.156 people you didn't know, uh, would jump in, which is what happened for me in 24. 00:16:53.156 --> 00:16:54.896 So we started to get some really serious investor. 00:16:54.896 --> 00:16:59.246 We got like, re Hoffman's Seed Fund Village, got into it, which was awesome. 00:16:59.306 --> 00:17:01.466 Um, you know, uh, Jason or, uh, sorry. 00:17:01.496 --> 00:17:04.526 Jeremy Achen who built DataRobot, a multi-billion r AI company. 00:17:04.976 --> 00:17:07.166 Uh, his fund invested Jeremy's on the board with me. 00:17:07.166 --> 00:17:08.576 He's been an outstanding investor. 00:17:10.136 --> 00:17:13.166 And then, uh, we had this really awesome group that kind of came in 00:17:13.166 --> 00:17:16.676 at the end called Magnify, which is tied in with Melinda French Gates 00:17:16.676 --> 00:17:18.056 and the Pivotal ventures and stuff. 00:17:18.056 --> 00:17:21.446 And, and the Magnify, the two amazing women that run that, I mean, 00:17:21.446 --> 00:17:23.996 they, they're all about Fantech. 00:17:23.996 --> 00:17:26.876 They're literally probably one of the truest enough, the truest seed 00:17:26.936 --> 00:17:28.466 fantech investors in the country. 00:17:29.486 --> 00:17:32.366 and we're lucky that our investors just happened to, to run into 00:17:32.366 --> 00:17:35.936 them, and then we fit kind of the mission they wanted to be on. 00:17:35.936 --> 00:17:39.836 So we end up with, you know, three funds that cared about Mission, 00:17:39.926 --> 00:17:42.926 deeply connected, you know, giving us the runway to build this. 00:17:42.926 --> 00:17:46.316 And, you know, a year later we built it, we shipped it, and now we're 00:17:46.316 --> 00:17:47.666 gonna take it to the next level. 00:17:47.966 --> 00:17:52.076 So, um, so yeah, but it's always building, it's building on the trust of other 00:17:52.076 --> 00:17:53.846 people to sign up and be on your team. 00:17:54.266 --> 00:17:58.016 The, the, the work with that team to figure out what it is 00:17:58.016 --> 00:18:01.016 really, like, what do you think it is, it's gonna change iterates. 00:18:01.466 --> 00:18:05.096 Then the people that love you have to kind of pull the trigger probably to give you 00:18:05.096 --> 00:18:06.836 the resources, even take a shot at it. 00:18:07.556 --> 00:18:09.896 You gotta make the most of that shot, because that's what gets you 00:18:09.896 --> 00:18:12.986 to the next milestone of, oh, we get the backing to do something real. 00:18:13.736 --> 00:18:16.856 And that's kind of been the journey for last two and a half years of annual Q. 00:18:19.261 --> 00:18:22.636 Clif Marshall: Tim, I wanted to just quickly read the mission or part of the 00:18:22.636 --> 00:18:24.796 mission statement that you have for Angel. 00:18:25.666 --> 00:18:29.716 just so people get a great understanding of what this is and how important it is. 00:18:29.926 --> 00:18:30.136 And I. 00:18:30.956 --> 00:18:33.116 Just hearing your story, I have a ton of respect for you 00:18:33.116 --> 00:18:34.856 because there's a problem, right? 00:18:35.306 --> 00:18:39.116 And that problem is online, and that problem is algorithms and 00:18:39.116 --> 00:18:43.676 exploitation and just dangerous to children, uh, throughout our world. 00:18:44.126 --> 00:18:47.966 But part of your mission statement, it says, an AI that cares because 00:18:47.966 --> 00:18:53.516 it's objective function, is to improve and protect a child's wellness. 00:18:53.966 --> 00:18:56.216 One that will do everything in support of them. 00:18:56.606 --> 00:18:59.816 Look out for their mental, social, and emotional wellbeing. 00:19:00.446 --> 00:19:04.916 Know them better than anyone, but never sell or exploit that knowledge. 00:19:05.366 --> 00:19:08.936 Partner with parents to make sure their child is protected and enriched, 00:19:09.296 --> 00:19:14.216 and AI to bring families together in ways, both online and offline, 00:19:15.086 --> 00:19:20.636 day, all the time to make a lot of healthier and happier humans. 00:19:20.996 --> 00:19:24.296 That's the mission behind Angel Q. 00:19:25.916 --> 00:19:28.046 Tim, I want to ask you, uh. 00:19:28.976 --> 00:19:33.371 does success look like for this company 10, 15, 20 years from now? 00:19:34.361 --> 00:19:36.206 Tim Estes: Ooh, that's a, that's a, that's a big one. 00:19:36.266 --> 00:19:38.701 Um, you know, it's one of the, the challenges when you're running 00:19:38.701 --> 00:19:42.221 something is, my mom used to say this, uh, life is so daily. 00:19:43.316 --> 00:19:47.066 And so you get focused in on the urgent, you know, there's the urgent 00:19:47.066 --> 00:19:48.056 and there's the important, right? 00:19:48.056 --> 00:19:49.076 So I love the questions. 00:19:49.076 --> 00:19:51.536 Making it is gonna make me think of important for a change. 00:19:51.566 --> 00:19:53.666 Not every day you get a chance to think of the important stuff. 00:19:54.566 --> 00:20:03.356 Um, so I believe that last, um, 20 years of technology have 00:20:03.356 --> 00:20:06.086 kind of gone backwards, okay? 00:20:06.146 --> 00:20:10.256 So technology, the fundamental purpose of technology is to make us more productive 00:20:11.066 --> 00:20:15.296 to like augment ourselves, to create kind of an augmentation of ourselves. 00:20:15.626 --> 00:20:19.016 Productive, healthier, wealthier, all this goodness. 00:20:19.016 --> 00:20:21.206 That's the history of civilization and technology. 00:20:22.046 --> 00:20:26.636 Something weird happened, you know, between like 2005, 2010, where the 00:20:26.636 --> 00:20:31.316 number one applications, the killer apps, the internet search, and then social. 00:20:32.591 --> 00:20:34.991 What happened was they went from being useful. 00:20:35.051 --> 00:20:38.171 Like initially search was find stuff right that you needed to find. 00:20:38.201 --> 00:20:40.631 'cause there's all this stuff out there and social was, find 00:20:40.631 --> 00:20:43.481 the people you need to find and learn what's going on with 'em. 00:20:43.661 --> 00:20:44.921 Those are the two killer apps. 00:20:46.181 --> 00:20:51.461 They started using that killer app to then hack people's brains. 00:20:52.601 --> 00:20:55.691 And, and this is not speculative, Sean Parker, one of the co-founders 00:20:55.691 --> 00:20:59.531 of, of Facebook, you know, ran it with, with Mark Zuckerberg early on. 00:21:00.581 --> 00:21:05.471 he was at conference in 2017 at Stanford basically said, you know, that their 00:21:05.471 --> 00:21:09.611 whole purpose was, they were hacking the human mind and they had fought 00:21:09.611 --> 00:21:11.141 through like what it was gonna do. 00:21:11.171 --> 00:21:14.861 And then he said a verbatim like, God only knows what this is doing to our children. 00:21:16.121 --> 00:21:16.511 Okay. 00:21:16.811 --> 00:21:20.171 So, so I give you, I give you that kind of anchor point, right? 00:21:20.231 --> 00:21:24.371 Of have 20 years where they turned technology from being 00:21:24.371 --> 00:21:27.011 a tool into a destination. 00:21:27.806 --> 00:21:31.196 The destination is, is you're hooked on it because they basically 00:21:31.196 --> 00:21:33.176 use digital narcotics, okay? 00:21:33.176 --> 00:21:38.516 They, they come up with ways to fire off dopamine, like by, you know, not 00:21:38.516 --> 00:21:41.996 knowing if you've had someone thumbs up, you yet or not, or not knowing 00:21:41.996 --> 00:21:43.286 what's gonna pop up next in the feed. 00:21:43.286 --> 00:21:45.386 There's all these little tricks they're doing all the time. 00:21:45.836 --> 00:21:48.926 There's a science behind those tricks that makes people need 00:21:48.926 --> 00:21:50.696 that hit over and over again. 00:21:50.756 --> 00:21:53.246 So it works very similar to addictive Narcotics. 00:21:53.936 --> 00:21:57.056 Um, and what's interesting is, and, and one of my, uh, good friends, Claire 00:21:57.056 --> 00:22:00.626 Morrell, she has a great book, um, called The Tech, ex Tech Exit that's 00:22:00.626 --> 00:22:04.076 coming out in about a, like, I believe in like two weeks here, I think next week. 00:22:04.436 --> 00:22:08.576 Um, she makes a great point in her book, which is, um, real 00:22:08.576 --> 00:22:15.596 relationship tends to require, um, physical engagement, uh, oxytocin. 00:22:15.656 --> 00:22:19.466 It's why frankly you hug your wife and you feel something, you know, I mean, it's 00:22:19.466 --> 00:22:21.926 like that, or your kids for that matter. 00:22:22.886 --> 00:22:24.836 virtual cannot replace that. 00:22:25.316 --> 00:22:26.936 It can wire our brains. 00:22:27.956 --> 00:22:31.256 To want something else and think it replaces it, but 00:22:31.256 --> 00:22:32.636 it's actually a false thing. 00:22:33.266 --> 00:22:37.076 Okay, so I, I know you asked me one question I needed to build up to this. 00:22:37.136 --> 00:22:37.376 Okay? 00:22:38.036 --> 00:22:38.306 want to 00:22:38.561 --> 00:22:38.781 Clif Marshall: Yes. 00:22:39.086 --> 00:22:41.366 Tim Estes: of that as possible in 20 years. 00:22:41.786 --> 00:22:45.926 My hope is that the world we have today where kids are walking around 00:22:45.926 --> 00:22:49.106 looking down at their phone, but I do think it's metaphorically interesting, 00:22:49.106 --> 00:22:50.246 they're looking down, not up. 00:22:51.896 --> 00:22:57.926 So I want a world Gen alpha and the generation that comes after 00:22:57.926 --> 00:23:03.776 that, is lame and uncool to be on your technology that much. 00:23:03.836 --> 00:23:04.136 Why? 00:23:04.136 --> 00:23:05.846 Because that means the technology is dumb. 00:23:05.936 --> 00:23:08.186 It's not useful, it's not productive. 00:23:08.666 --> 00:23:12.356 I want a world where they're on a screen 20 minutes a day because 00:23:12.356 --> 00:23:14.966 that's what it takes to talk to their AI and their AI cousin and does all 00:23:14.966 --> 00:23:18.506 this stuff for them and comes back and actually values human time. 00:23:19.976 --> 00:23:20.426 Alright? 00:23:20.816 --> 00:23:23.516 See, the technology is actually there. 00:23:24.356 --> 00:23:27.416 it to be built that way to do all this stuff, for us to do things that 00:23:27.416 --> 00:23:31.076 would take us weeks and get done in minutes now, like that tech is the 00:23:31.076 --> 00:23:32.636 revolution last two or three years. 00:23:33.206 --> 00:23:33.686 Alright? 00:23:35.186 --> 00:23:38.246 If that was designed in a way that wasn't about trapping people's 00:23:38.246 --> 00:23:43.166 attention and trying to hook them into being, I mean, in what universe is 00:23:43.726 --> 00:23:47.216 is it actually healthy for kids to be looking at a screen eight hours a day? 00:23:48.236 --> 00:23:52.406 Like, I mean, that, that's not childhood, that's not even life. 00:23:53.186 --> 00:23:59.456 And, and so I believe that to change that vector, you gotta start kids 00:23:59.486 --> 00:24:01.806 early and young, which is why at AngelQ we're focused on this sort of 00:24:01.806 --> 00:24:03.806 five to twelve year old early piece. 00:24:04.256 --> 00:24:09.026 And it's really about giving the kids the ability to explore, explore safely. 00:24:09.056 --> 00:24:12.326 But there's nothing we built in this thing to keep them like going in. 00:24:12.326 --> 00:24:13.316 They have to have the drive. 00:24:13.316 --> 00:24:15.476 You know, you watch a video in AngelQ and it just stops. 00:24:15.476 --> 00:24:16.316 It doesn't take you anywhere. 00:24:16.706 --> 00:24:17.096 Why? 00:24:17.426 --> 00:24:21.656 Because we think if you watch a video after you search for it, basically. 00:24:22.451 --> 00:24:23.981 Before you watch another one, you should decide. 00:24:24.041 --> 00:24:27.161 You should stop, pause, and decide, is that what I wanna do next? 00:24:27.161 --> 00:24:28.901 Go spend twenty minutes watching something else. 00:24:29.621 --> 00:24:33.401 And it's amazing if you don't, if you don't trick them into 00:24:33.401 --> 00:24:34.991 doing it, just keep watching. 00:24:35.591 --> 00:24:35.831 most 00:24:35.831 --> 00:24:36.881 times the kids will just check out. 00:24:36.881 --> 00:24:39.581 They'll be like, yeah, I think, you know, I'm just gonna do something else. 00:24:40.151 --> 00:24:42.911 It isn't interesting enough for them, um, because they 00:24:42.911 --> 00:24:43.811 know there's something better. 00:24:44.231 --> 00:24:47.981 So I think that, you know, my dream is we have tens, hundreds of millions 00:24:47.981 --> 00:24:54.731 of kids that are on Angel cue or derivative of that, they trust as an ai. 00:24:55.451 --> 00:24:57.761 Not because it's their friend, not 'cause they're companion. 00:24:57.761 --> 00:25:00.341 We super clear there's some really dangerous stuff going on out there 00:25:00.341 --> 00:25:02.891 with people trying to turn AI into companions right now and being like 00:25:03.041 --> 00:25:06.761 a substitute for relationships and that is not a road we're going down. 00:25:07.241 --> 00:25:10.451 We do want it to be, we want it to be your C3 PO and your R 2D two. 00:25:10.481 --> 00:25:13.451 We want it to be the thing that's, you know, kind of cute, kind of fun, 00:25:13.841 --> 00:25:18.641 you know, maybe you think well of it, but like it really is not there, like 00:25:18.641 --> 00:25:20.891 to replace your human relationships. 00:25:20.921 --> 00:25:24.491 It's there to free your time up so you can have more real relationships. 00:25:27.076 --> 00:25:29.176 Sam Acho: Tim, I want to follow up on that. 00:25:30.466 --> 00:25:31.876 I think two things that come to my mind. 00:25:31.876 --> 00:25:36.226 You talked about how with Angel Q, it gives children the decision. 00:25:36.226 --> 00:25:37.096 Do I wanna watch again? 00:25:37.096 --> 00:25:40.636 I think about some of the other apps that we use that other people use, and 00:25:40.636 --> 00:25:45.526 it's like as soon as the show ends 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, the next show's already up. 00:25:45.946 --> 00:25:48.856 And you think, and, and to your point, it's not an accident 00:25:48.886 --> 00:25:50.746 that's by design, right? 00:25:50.746 --> 00:25:55.636 Did uh, so I think about that, but also following up on Cliff's 00:25:55.636 --> 00:26:00.256 question of what is your, what does success look like in 15 years? 00:26:00.556 --> 00:26:06.706 My follow up is what would hinder you in Angel Q from being successful? 00:26:08.816 --> 00:26:11.576 Tim Estes: I mean, so there's this stuff that, that normally, you know, 00:26:12.026 --> 00:26:13.556 you've gotta deal with as a company. 00:26:13.586 --> 00:26:16.526 So you've gotta keep having the funding to build out and to 00:26:16.526 --> 00:26:18.806 keep, uh, essentially expanding. 00:26:18.806 --> 00:26:22.286 I mean, like, so we run on, just Mac stuff right now, right? 00:26:22.286 --> 00:26:24.956 On iOS, we run on like iPhones and iPads. 00:26:25.196 --> 00:26:26.726 We gotta go get this thing on Android. 00:26:26.756 --> 00:26:30.146 We gotta find clever ways to put it on TV top, you know, boxes. 00:26:30.626 --> 00:26:32.306 You know, we, we have to do that kind of work and that's 00:26:32.306 --> 00:26:33.656 gonna take time and resources. 00:26:33.656 --> 00:26:34.676 So there's the kind of stuff like that. 00:26:34.676 --> 00:26:36.236 There's find the best people to do that. 00:26:36.566 --> 00:26:38.996 These are all the things that just build business. 00:26:39.986 --> 00:26:42.896 a couple things that are not just related to building a business 00:26:42.896 --> 00:26:44.156 that are specific to Angel Q. 00:26:44.156 --> 00:26:44.936 That could stop us. 00:26:46.316 --> 00:26:47.306 Two ones in particular. 00:26:47.996 --> 00:26:50.936 One is, I don't think the thing we're trying to pull off works 00:26:50.936 --> 00:26:52.346 without the parents being a partner. 00:26:53.576 --> 00:26:58.976 I think a parent has to decide Um, I mean a way to think about is this is if your 00:26:58.976 --> 00:27:04.706 kid is staring at, you know, a device that you've given them and there are, you know, 00:27:04.706 --> 00:27:08.786 four or five super addictive apps and games and you're giving 'em the freedom 00:27:08.786 --> 00:27:10.376 to use their time however they want. 00:27:11.036 --> 00:27:13.976 It's almost like you take 'em out to a restaurant and you don't 00:27:13.976 --> 00:27:15.176 make 'em have to eat dinner first. 00:27:15.176 --> 00:27:17.306 You just say, pick what's in the menu and they go straight to desserts. 00:27:18.416 --> 00:27:19.706 Like, parenting is not that. 00:27:19.706 --> 00:27:20.096 Right. 00:27:20.156 --> 00:27:23.516 Parenting is knowing that, you know, if a kid had the freedom 00:27:23.516 --> 00:27:26.426 to choose their way forward, they probably eat Skittles every night. 00:27:27.296 --> 00:27:27.566 Okay. 00:27:27.566 --> 00:27:30.776 Especially younger ones they had a belly ache and maybe they pick a 00:27:30.776 --> 00:27:33.086 different kind of candy thinking that's it before they finally give up on 00:27:33.086 --> 00:27:34.586 the sweets because it makes 'em sick. 00:27:35.006 --> 00:27:37.796 So like that, that's, that's normal kid behavior, right? 00:27:38.126 --> 00:27:42.181 We as parents intervene all the time and nudge them better their own good and then 00:27:42.326 --> 00:27:44.666 they grow up and they start respecting that and they start understanding that 00:27:44.666 --> 00:27:46.136 and start growing in their own maturity. 00:27:46.766 --> 00:27:47.186 Um. 00:27:48.191 --> 00:27:50.141 We're trying to do that digitally, right? 00:27:50.141 --> 00:27:52.001 We're trying to do that in the digital space. 00:27:52.151 --> 00:27:55.961 And what that means is we need to partner with parents in that. 00:27:55.991 --> 00:27:56.501 Okay. 00:27:57.611 --> 00:27:59.741 if you've got into a queue, you don't need YouTube on there anymore. 00:28:00.671 --> 00:28:05.411 And so keeping YouTube like on your, on your actual, uh, device, like the 00:28:05.411 --> 00:28:08.531 kids' device where they could get access to it, it's just asking for trouble. 00:28:08.561 --> 00:28:10.331 'cause it's just rabbit holes, it left and right. 00:28:10.361 --> 00:28:13.751 I mean, you mentioned about the autoplay, like that's not great. 00:28:13.961 --> 00:28:17.441 What's really bad is when the autoplay is something weird that shows up right 00:28:17.441 --> 00:28:21.881 after what they were watching that, that the algorithms decided is related to it. 00:28:21.881 --> 00:28:24.221 But it's like nothing like what you would want 'em to watch. 00:28:25.361 --> 00:28:29.951 And so, uh, or there's a comment because it is kind of a social network 00:28:30.521 --> 00:28:33.131 and the comment might, you know, drag them down some rabbit hole. 00:28:34.721 --> 00:28:38.081 the world we have today, since it's all monetized based on attention, 00:28:38.141 --> 00:28:40.481 these, these different apps are all monetized based on attention. 00:28:41.351 --> 00:28:41.381 I. 00:28:41.381 --> 00:28:45.896 They're going to want your kid to go down as many rabbit holes as possible, 00:28:45.896 --> 00:28:48.306 because that means they're down the hole and they're not getting out. 00:28:49.166 --> 00:28:49.486 Right. 00:28:50.096 --> 00:28:53.066 So they're not going to protect your kid from going down these rabbit holes. 00:28:53.996 --> 00:28:57.866 So that means that part of the, you know, the parenting process 00:28:57.866 --> 00:29:01.986 is, you know, substantial limits probably on the stuff around AngelQ 00:29:03.386 --> 00:29:07.946 and treating it like at, at best, treating it like dessert, like games. 00:29:08.216 --> 00:29:08.576 Okay. 00:29:09.236 --> 00:29:11.276 Yeah, I, I grew up playing some video games too. 00:29:11.306 --> 00:29:13.226 I didn't spend all my time doing it, but, you know, I don't 00:29:13.226 --> 00:29:16.286 think I ended up totally, you know, antisocial because of it. 00:29:16.286 --> 00:29:19.736 So I think there's a lot of like legitimate, um, you know, playing 00:29:19.736 --> 00:29:21.356 there a lot of people that are, um. 00:29:22.016 --> 00:29:26.036 fact, probably one or two people on this, on this, uh, podcast, Sam, have actually 00:29:26.036 --> 00:29:27.776 been characters in games, is my guess. 00:29:27.836 --> 00:29:33.116 Uh, and so given the, the pro history, uh, and uh, and so I think 00:29:33.116 --> 00:29:36.686 that that's some way the kids like love and follow people and do it. 00:29:36.686 --> 00:29:38.216 So I totally, I think it's legit. 00:29:38.216 --> 00:29:41.516 But you know, if, if a kid's gonna spend eight hours a day on Madden, I mean, 00:29:41.516 --> 00:29:43.016 that's probably not great either, right? 00:29:43.316 --> 00:29:44.576 So, so there's gotta be these 00:29:44.966 --> 00:29:45.026 Sam Acho: Hmm. 00:29:45.446 --> 00:29:48.806 Tim Estes: and, and I think that we have to work with parents who have had 00:29:48.806 --> 00:29:53.006 enough, don't want their kids to be addicted to these things don't want to 00:29:53.006 --> 00:29:54.626 be, have their kids be dysregulated. 00:29:55.286 --> 00:29:59.786 Um, and Angel Q becomes kind of a safe go-to option. 00:30:00.146 --> 00:30:04.586 So, you know, they don't need to go do research on Google, uh, without you there. 00:30:04.616 --> 00:30:06.686 They could go down and do the research with Angel Cube. 00:30:07.136 --> 00:30:10.646 Um, if they're gonna use those other tools, it's probably to do it with them. 00:30:10.736 --> 00:30:13.226 It's probably taking the effort to say, okay, you wanna see some of 00:30:13.226 --> 00:30:14.426 YouTube, but you can't go on Angel. 00:30:14.756 --> 00:30:15.656 We'll do that together. 00:30:16.151 --> 00:30:20.171 Okay, uh, you want to go search on Google and try to dig into something 00:30:20.171 --> 00:30:23.591 for whatever reason, because like what Angel Q's giving you isn't enough yet. 00:30:23.591 --> 00:30:26.351 And by the way, every month or two, we're gonna be expanding that. 00:30:26.351 --> 00:30:29.711 So our hope is that the thing where it doesn't do it is gonna get smaller 00:30:29.711 --> 00:30:34.991 and smaller, um, but our goal would be that we become the safe option 00:30:34.991 --> 00:30:36.311 when the parent can't be present. 00:30:37.121 --> 00:30:39.551 that requires the parent to sort of, I mean, it should be a good thing. 00:30:39.551 --> 00:30:40.871 They can say yes to it, right? 00:30:40.871 --> 00:30:42.011 Without the risk. 00:30:42.311 --> 00:30:46.271 Uh, but on the other hand, um, if they just let it be, anything goes 00:30:46.271 --> 00:30:49.841 because you're just trying to buy space as a parent and let anything go, 00:30:50.291 --> 00:30:53.411 that's a hard thing for us to succeed in because like I said, we're, we're 00:30:53.411 --> 00:30:56.711 then up against people are actively trying to addict your children to 00:30:56.711 --> 00:30:58.841 technology, but they can make money. 00:30:59.111 --> 00:31:02.831 And we are actively trying not to, you know, those are called dark patterns. 00:31:02.891 --> 00:31:05.291 Like if you, if you dig into the literature about this 00:31:05.291 --> 00:31:07.601 stuff, like, um, endless scroll. 00:31:07.946 --> 00:31:08.306 Right. 00:31:08.606 --> 00:31:10.526 Endless scroll is known as a dark pattern. 00:31:10.526 --> 00:31:13.136 It's because they figured out that if your brain was not given any 00:31:13.136 --> 00:31:16.166 natural place to stop, it would just keep going and it would flush out 00:31:16.166 --> 00:31:19.376 what you just read from your memory before you got to the next thing. 00:31:20.456 --> 00:31:25.016 And by that happening, what happens is you would lose the impulse control and you 00:31:25.016 --> 00:31:28.426 would spend 45 minutes on a social media thing when would naturally spend five. 00:31:29.426 --> 00:31:29.726 Okay? 00:31:29.726 --> 00:31:31.916 And they figured this out, Aza raskin figured it out. 00:31:32.336 --> 00:31:36.386 Uh, and he's kind of been repenting of it ever since he went and, uh, and, and is 00:31:36.386 --> 00:31:39.746 now part of this group called the Center for Humane Technology with Tristan Harris. 00:31:39.896 --> 00:31:43.046 And they're the ones that did the social dilemma that, that movie on Netflix. 00:31:43.496 --> 00:31:45.086 Uh, and, and they, they cracked us. 00:31:45.086 --> 00:31:46.856 They kind of said, this is why it's all bad. 00:31:46.856 --> 00:31:48.116 And they're called dark patterns. 00:31:48.476 --> 00:31:53.036 We've tried at angel put light patterns in, you know, natural stopping points, 00:31:53.426 --> 00:31:57.296 natural places for kids' judgment to come out and decide they wanna do more. 00:31:57.506 --> 00:32:00.536 We're gonna keep improving that, trying to nudge kids off 00:32:00.536 --> 00:32:01.826 the app to do things offline. 00:32:02.126 --> 00:32:06.116 Like the big priority for us in the near future the best stories 00:32:06.116 --> 00:32:07.076 we're getting from parents. 00:32:07.421 --> 00:32:10.931 I mean, there's, there's great stories from parents that have had big insights 00:32:10.931 --> 00:32:13.871 and great insights for their kids, but there's also great stories of 00:32:14.021 --> 00:32:15.521 them going and doing things together. 00:32:15.641 --> 00:32:20.111 You know, we had one parent that, uh, ended up like going out and, um, uh, 00:32:20.291 --> 00:32:24.131 they adopted a family, you know, pet as a result of the investigation they had done 00:32:24.131 --> 00:32:25.631 on Angel to pick out what kind of pet. 00:32:26.381 --> 00:32:28.481 so, and now there's a, like a memory of that. 00:32:28.531 --> 00:32:29.701 Sam Acho: No, Tim, this is super helpful. 00:32:29.701 --> 00:32:33.091 You talked about the parent involvement, so a lot of people don't know I got 00:32:33.091 --> 00:32:35.761 a chance to test out Angel early. 00:32:36.421 --> 00:32:40.111 I got a chance to use Angel for my family, for my kids, and. 00:32:40.561 --> 00:32:43.621 And, and to your point, it, there's this ease of use. 00:32:43.621 --> 00:32:47.671 Kids can go in and you have this conversation with this ai, you know, with, 00:32:47.971 --> 00:32:49.921 you know, you say, Hey, I wanna watch this video, I wanna watch that video. 00:32:49.921 --> 00:32:51.242 And they would show it, and it's great. 00:32:51.247 --> 00:32:52.561 It's, it's like the safe place. 00:32:53.041 --> 00:32:57.181 But the best part about Angel for me so far has been the parent involvement. 00:32:57.781 --> 00:32:58.651 What do I mean by that? 00:32:58.651 --> 00:33:03.211 There's a, there's a, a, a technology within the app that actually has 00:33:03.211 --> 00:33:04.621 essentially allows parents yes. 00:33:04.621 --> 00:33:09.241 To be able to control screen time, but more so for me, it lets you know 00:33:09.241 --> 00:33:14.491 a little bit of what your child has been searching, what they've been 00:33:14.491 --> 00:33:17.881 asking about, the conversations they've been having online and now four kids. 00:33:17.881 --> 00:33:21.691 And, and, and one of 'em, it's been, it's been a challenge at the, at the school. 00:33:21.991 --> 00:33:22.531 And 00:33:24.691 --> 00:33:30.391 I saw the angel report for the day and it said, man, you know, your, 00:33:30.391 --> 00:33:34.261 your child, you loves to learn really inquisitive and wants to grow. 00:33:34.261 --> 00:33:38.521 And, and, and we noticed that by the question and if he asked, this is. 00:33:39.046 --> 00:33:40.396 How do I get smart? 00:33:41.356 --> 00:33:42.256 How do I get smart? 00:33:43.216 --> 00:33:48.226 And that question provided a lot of insight for me because as you know, 00:33:48.226 --> 00:33:51.286 whether you're at school or even at home, there are conversations 00:33:51.286 --> 00:33:54.676 that are happening that you may know about or may not know about. 00:33:55.006 --> 00:34:00.766 And for me it was this reminder of, oh man, let me remind my child of who they 00:34:00.766 --> 00:34:05.626 are so that the world on the outside, whether it's friends at school or maybe 00:34:05.626 --> 00:34:09.436 stuff that he's searching, doesn't make him think that he is what he isn't. 00:34:10.216 --> 00:34:13.306 And so one of the biggest benefits for me, you talked about the parent 00:34:13.306 --> 00:34:18.136 involvement, is this, is this insight, I think it's actually called Angel Insight. 00:34:18.226 --> 00:34:19.306 It's it's insight. 00:34:19.321 --> 00:34:19.771 Tim Estes: Insights. 00:34:19.771 --> 00:34:24.241 It's a weekly, uh, weekly kind of digest, uh, with a summary of what 00:34:24.241 --> 00:34:27.601 your kid's interested in and then also kind of some suggestions around it. 00:34:27.601 --> 00:34:31.891 And, And, and so what it did for you, Sam, is, is what we dreamed it would do. 00:34:31.951 --> 00:34:35.371 It's basically something to bring parents and your kids closer together. 00:34:35.851 --> 00:34:37.531 Uh, it's like, it's interesting. 00:34:37.531 --> 00:34:41.281 Those insights are not things we're ever using, like relative to your child. 00:34:41.281 --> 00:34:43.771 Like there's no one, there's never an advertisement, there's 00:34:43.771 --> 00:34:45.211 never information going anywhere. 00:34:45.631 --> 00:34:51.061 The AI's learning about your child is actually just to supply you so 00:34:51.191 --> 00:34:51.411 Sam Acho: Hmm. 00:34:51.511 --> 00:34:55.171 Tim Estes: it can be something that helps you make that outreach, you know, 00:34:55.171 --> 00:34:57.001 to your, to your, you know, your kid. 00:34:58.486 --> 00:34:58.786 Sam Acho: Wow. 00:34:58.816 --> 00:34:59.506 That's good. 00:34:59.596 --> 00:35:00.286 That's good. 00:35:00.856 --> 00:35:05.806 Uh, no, just for me, like you talked about, the, our kids are 00:35:05.806 --> 00:35:08.896 in a world where they're, a lot of 'em are, are spending time online. 00:35:08.896 --> 00:35:11.566 They may not be living online, but they're spending time online. 00:35:11.926 --> 00:35:15.406 And so just as a parent to be able to partner and have that insight 00:35:15.706 --> 00:35:18.076 for me, just provided another tool. 00:35:18.391 --> 00:35:23.731 To be able to help raise and train my children and to get some insight into 00:35:23.821 --> 00:35:26.701 what the world may be trying to tell them. 00:35:28.306 --> 00:35:30.676 Tim Estes: Yeah, it's interesting, like sometimes, sometimes your kid 00:35:30.676 --> 00:35:34.636 will bring up good questions to you and sometimes they're, they'll hold back, 00:35:34.906 --> 00:35:37.936 you know, and they, it's not that they don't trust you as the dad or, you 00:35:37.936 --> 00:35:40.096 know, in this case, I mean, or, or mom. 00:35:40.696 --> 00:35:46.276 Um, it's that they, they want a bit of a judgment free zone, uh, at 00:35:46.276 --> 00:35:50.026 all levels sometimes when they're, they're curious and they're uncertain. 00:35:50.686 --> 00:35:53.056 And, um, I'll give you a recent one. 00:35:53.116 --> 00:35:58.966 Um, so my, you know, my son was asking questions about, um, you know, were 00:35:58.966 --> 00:36:02.176 there, were there, you know, being a Christian, like were there men 00:36:02.176 --> 00:36:03.946 around when the dinosaurs were here? 00:36:04.921 --> 00:36:09.961 He started asking about like pre earth history and, uh, and, and, and he, 00:36:09.991 --> 00:36:12.991 he asked me about it and I had, you know, a fairly long, and hopefully 00:36:12.991 --> 00:36:16.861 not totally obstru kind of, you know, explanation for him about all that. 00:36:17.941 --> 00:36:22.081 but, but you know, he's nine, mean, these are the ages. 00:36:22.081 --> 00:36:24.781 They're gonna be wrestling with different things. 00:36:24.781 --> 00:36:28.411 They're learning from different sources and it'll contradict sometimes, right? 00:36:29.551 --> 00:36:33.481 it's, it's, you wanna make sure they're, they're basically having access to 00:36:33.481 --> 00:36:37.801 truth, but even more than just access to truth, you want them to start being 00:36:37.801 --> 00:36:39.811 able to discern the truth, right. 00:36:40.171 --> 00:36:43.921 To figure out, like, 'cause, because we're not always gonna be there, you 00:36:43.921 --> 00:36:47.251 know, we're, we're always there for them if they reach out and we know, but 00:36:47.521 --> 00:36:50.911 they're gonna have a lot of points in life where we have to build these resilient 00:36:50.941 --> 00:36:53.071 kids that turn into resilient adults. 00:36:53.716 --> 00:37:00.916 And, um, my hope is that what Angel Q does is it actually allows them to explore ways 00:37:00.916 --> 00:37:05.506 they naturally want to, but without the risks that should never have been there. 00:37:05.926 --> 00:37:06.226 Right? 00:37:06.226 --> 00:37:08.236 I mean, it's not like we're cutting off this internet. 00:37:08.236 --> 00:37:11.956 They're entitled to, I mean, it's, we're basically saying the red light 00:37:11.956 --> 00:37:13.966 district, there's no access point here. 00:37:14.981 --> 00:37:15.061 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 00:37:15.316 --> 00:37:17.536 Tim Estes: so like, that's how it always should have been. 00:37:17.566 --> 00:37:22.666 It was always almost a, a corruption that these things were built the way they were. 00:37:22.666 --> 00:37:26.116 I mean, it would be like, you know, having a town where you took off 00:37:26.146 --> 00:37:30.406 every single, like, you know, alcohol for 18 and over or 21 and over, 00:37:30.406 --> 00:37:34.456 sign off every single door and they could roll in any bar they wanted. 00:37:34.456 --> 00:37:35.896 Like that's how they built the internet. 00:37:36.316 --> 00:37:40.126 And, um, you know, that, that just, that ends badly, you know, and 00:37:40.126 --> 00:37:42.826 it's not just because, you know, alcohol for young kids is bad. 00:37:42.826 --> 00:37:43.516 Of course it is. 00:37:43.846 --> 00:37:47.566 But think about the people that are in those environments and what they're 00:37:47.566 --> 00:37:50.746 actually exposing them to and, and what they might be dealing with. 00:37:50.866 --> 00:37:56.116 And that is not what we want our kids engaging with because based 00:37:56.116 --> 00:37:58.786 on healthy development, they have to go through a different journey 00:37:59.056 --> 00:38:00.466 with their family and their peers. 00:38:01.246 --> 00:38:03.016 To build up this resilience. 00:38:03.316 --> 00:38:06.016 And if you just throw them out in the wild, if you throw them in the middle of 00:38:06.016 --> 00:38:10.396 Times Square without like, you know, a guide or anything, and they can wander 00:38:10.396 --> 00:38:12.376 anywhere, like don't be surprised. 00:38:12.376 --> 00:38:13.246 Bad things happen. 00:38:14.266 --> 00:38:18.976 uh, and I think that, know, we think the antithesis of that is have something safe, 00:38:18.976 --> 00:38:23.086 or they can be curious, they can push, you know, and, and be interesting and 00:38:23.086 --> 00:38:25.606 know that they can grow without judgment. 00:38:26.776 --> 00:38:31.186 uh, the parents are there alongside that journey to understand it and find 00:38:31.186 --> 00:38:34.546 ways to intervene and love the kid, you know, through all the hard things. 00:38:34.546 --> 00:38:37.336 I mean, my, my 6-year-old, I haven't talked about this that much, but, 00:38:37.516 --> 00:38:40.816 so he's neurodiverse, he's, he's a little bit on the spectrum and, 00:38:40.876 --> 00:38:42.706 um, and his name is actually Angel. 00:38:43.666 --> 00:38:48.706 and that's one reason I named this app that is, uh, one thing you find, and it's 00:38:48.706 --> 00:38:53.536 actually a real tragedy, these apps that are designed to be so addictive, they're 00:38:53.536 --> 00:38:55.816 10 x addictive on Neurodiverse kids. 00:38:56.581 --> 00:38:59.581 These apps just abuse these kids. 00:38:59.791 --> 00:39:03.481 Because what they do is they dysregulate them, they make them hooked. 00:39:03.481 --> 00:39:06.631 This dopamine hit thing I talked about earlier, when you take a kid 00:39:06.631 --> 00:39:09.811 that's kind of struggling with those kind of difficulties in terms of 00:39:09.811 --> 00:39:11.221 how their brain, you know, grew up. 00:39:11.221 --> 00:39:15.481 And as we know, like this is getting super common, like especially among boys, 00:39:15.541 --> 00:39:21.091 like boys that are in the age of our boys, it's probably 10 times more likely 00:39:21.091 --> 00:39:24.241 that they have these kind of struggles than it was 15 years ago, 20 years ago. 00:39:24.241 --> 00:39:28.981 It's amazing how much it's exploded and, and they realize that they can hook 00:39:29.101 --> 00:39:31.021 these kids and they can't break away. 00:39:31.831 --> 00:39:32.281 Okay. 00:39:32.731 --> 00:39:36.331 And, and so I, you know, decide I can sit here and pound on how evil I think that 00:39:36.331 --> 00:39:38.431 is, but you know, I've got one, right? 00:39:38.431 --> 00:39:39.961 And so like, that's my boy. 00:39:39.961 --> 00:39:41.521 Like this is more personal, right? 00:39:41.521 --> 00:39:46.171 It's not just a, and so part of this is, um, I. 00:39:46.876 --> 00:39:50.326 How do you give kids that are like, coming from all these different diverse 00:39:50.326 --> 00:39:54.856 places, how do you give them something that, you know, does have their, 00:39:54.856 --> 00:39:56.836 their wellness in mind, you know? 00:39:56.896 --> 00:39:59.266 Um, and, and, and you know, we have to build a business 00:39:59.266 --> 00:40:00.316 model that works that way. 00:40:00.316 --> 00:40:02.086 I mean, we're saying no advertisement. 00:40:02.176 --> 00:40:05.386 We gotta have people that support and actually use and pay for this. 00:40:05.386 --> 00:40:06.796 And it's transparent, right? 00:40:06.796 --> 00:40:10.786 It's like, this is how much it is a month used, and this is 'cause it cost us, you 00:40:10.786 --> 00:40:13.306 know, X or y to, to actually deliver it. 00:40:13.546 --> 00:40:15.226 Uh, and we're serving it for you. 00:40:15.916 --> 00:40:22.006 So, um, so I think that's, that's the big stuff going on now is that the, the kids, 00:40:22.066 --> 00:40:28.846 uh, especially the neurodiverse ones, um, they, um, they need a place that's not 00:40:28.846 --> 00:40:34.216 just safe, but isn't trying to exacerbate, you know, their weaknesses, that isn't 00:40:34.216 --> 00:40:35.776 trying to play to those weaknesses. 00:40:36.856 --> 00:40:41.206 and, uh, and so, so mine like is probably even more, you know, of a 00:40:41.206 --> 00:40:43.126 user of Angel Cube because anytime. 00:40:44.221 --> 00:40:46.711 he's got a question I said, and, and I'm like, I stumble. 00:40:46.711 --> 00:40:48.391 He's like, oh, let's ask Angel. 00:40:48.451 --> 00:40:50.851 You know, it sort of becomes a cheat co for parents. 00:40:50.851 --> 00:40:52.711 Those of us that are using it, we know what we're talking about. 00:40:52.711 --> 00:40:55.951 Like, like they wanted to know like, what was, this was a, this was crazy. 00:40:55.981 --> 00:40:58.861 'cause it's like classic case of as a dad, you, you kind of get 00:40:58.861 --> 00:41:02.101 this little aura of, you know, most everything, but you really don't. 00:41:02.581 --> 00:41:06.781 And, uh, and so the, the kids when you could like, laugh through the fact when 00:41:06.781 --> 00:41:10.111 you don't know, so they're like, well, what's a number bigger than a Google? 00:41:10.861 --> 00:41:11.011 know? 00:41:11.011 --> 00:41:13.921 So Google, you know, a number with, you know, one with a hundred zeros behind it. 00:41:13.921 --> 00:41:17.611 And it's like the Angel Q said, well, a Google plex, and that's like a, a 00:41:17.611 --> 00:41:20.311 one with a Google Zeros behind it. 00:41:20.881 --> 00:41:22.921 And then of course they don't stop, you know, kids don't know what to stop. 00:41:22.921 --> 00:41:24.511 So they're like, well, what's bigger than that? 00:41:24.511 --> 00:41:25.831 You know, it's like, who's gonna win? 00:41:26.281 --> 00:41:29.671 And uh, and it's like teamed up with this thing called a Grams Number, which like, 00:41:29.671 --> 00:41:32.461 I'd done some math in undergrad, like I didn't even know what this thing was. 00:41:32.881 --> 00:41:38.071 But basically it's a number that is so big that it's longer to write than 00:41:38.071 --> 00:41:39.361 all the molecules in the universe. 00:41:40.846 --> 00:41:40.966 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 00:41:41.236 --> 00:41:43.726 Tim Estes: And so now like my little 9-year-old, 6-year-old, like 00:41:43.726 --> 00:41:46.396 quizzing their peers about like, you know what Graham's number is? 00:41:46.396 --> 00:41:48.676 Like they got this little piece of knowledge they know and they 00:41:48.676 --> 00:41:53.476 just can use it and love it and I think like that's what their 00:41:53.476 --> 00:41:55.126 childhood's supposed to be like. 00:41:55.516 --> 00:42:00.076 Finding new things that are positive, things that are interesting things. 00:42:00.076 --> 00:42:02.596 Sharing with others and the others sharing with them. 00:42:03.166 --> 00:42:06.466 And it builds up, you know, a kind of community. 00:42:06.766 --> 00:42:09.196 A community of learning and curiosity. 00:42:10.276 --> 00:42:14.476 I think what's happened is a lot of our young people they face, and my kids 00:42:14.476 --> 00:42:17.686 haven't faced it fully that much yet 'cause they're young enough, but the 00:42:17.686 --> 00:42:21.016 parents that have, you know, 10, 11, 12 year olds and going into high school, 00:42:21.676 --> 00:42:26.746 these engines of online communication have been basically, they've all 00:42:26.746 --> 00:42:29.056 been amped up on comparison, right. 00:42:30.091 --> 00:42:34.021 How, like, how am I look in versus this other girl? 00:42:34.201 --> 00:42:37.141 How is my life versus this? 00:42:37.171 --> 00:42:41.791 And you know what, like there's almost no sin that is as pernicious as envy, right? 00:42:42.661 --> 00:42:44.281 That just tears through things. 00:42:44.671 --> 00:42:50.191 And you've got a whole engine of envy and insecurity being used to hook our 00:42:50.191 --> 00:42:53.641 kids to spend more time because a few companies make billions off of it. 00:42:55.501 --> 00:42:56.791 And we should get mad about that. 00:42:56.821 --> 00:42:59.371 Like we should just, we should be, we should not settle for that. 00:43:00.421 --> 00:43:02.461 uh, and that's kind of like, that's where we come in. 00:43:02.461 --> 00:43:05.521 And I know my, one of my, you know, frustrations is we're 00:43:05.521 --> 00:43:06.841 going as fast as we can. 00:43:06.841 --> 00:43:09.091 We're covering these younger kids, but man, we're gonna have to build something 00:43:09.091 --> 00:43:13.351 for the teenagers too, because like, they got a whole nother fight, which is, you 00:43:13.351 --> 00:43:18.121 know, being growing up and a, you know, an idea with their socialization is mostly 00:43:18.121 --> 00:43:20.701 virtual, which is just bizarre, right? 00:43:21.841 --> 00:43:25.321 they hacked the kids and so the kids are wired now. 00:43:25.786 --> 00:43:28.366 To think of socialization as being virtual first. 00:43:28.366 --> 00:43:30.526 Like not, oh, what did I meet up with? 00:43:30.856 --> 00:43:34.486 You know, Harry or Sally, uh, you know, and then have this conversation 00:43:34.486 --> 00:43:35.986 or did I just message them? 00:43:35.986 --> 00:43:39.616 I DMed them somewhere, you know, and it's probably nine 00:43:40.096 --> 00:43:41.626 the latter and won the former. 00:43:42.826 --> 00:43:44.956 And so it's just so different now. 00:43:45.376 --> 00:43:50.026 And, uh, I mean, I mean, one thing that blew my mind is, I mean, I don't know, 00:43:50.026 --> 00:43:51.436 I'd, I'd love to get a kinda memory lane. 00:43:51.436 --> 00:43:54.406 Do y'all remember what it was like when you turned 16? 00:43:54.526 --> 00:43:58.816 You know, whether you like lined up at the door of the DMV to make sure you 00:43:58.816 --> 00:44:01.156 got your license, like that day right? 00:44:01.156 --> 00:44:01.546 Or maybe 00:44:01.636 --> 00:44:01.856 Clif Marshall: Yes. 00:44:02.056 --> 00:44:03.916 Tim Estes: that whole learner's permit thing going on, or you 00:44:03.916 --> 00:44:05.386 get some special consideration. 00:44:05.386 --> 00:44:08.146 You get, you get to be one of the really cool 15 year olds that just 00:44:08.146 --> 00:44:09.736 happens to get one of those, right? 00:44:10.786 --> 00:44:12.286 that was a rite of passage. 00:44:12.286 --> 00:44:15.136 And, and I think it probably was until about 10 years ago, the number of 00:44:15.136 --> 00:44:19.996 kids getting driver's licenses, when they hit 16 all the way up to when the 00:44:19.996 --> 00:44:21.886 grade college is dropped dramatically. 00:44:24.271 --> 00:44:28.141 And the only explanation that, that I can give for it and that some 00:44:28.321 --> 00:44:30.961 various social scientists that are far smarter me, like Gene T Twinge and 00:44:30.961 --> 00:44:35.491 others, uh, give for it, is they've been pulled in such an online world. 00:44:35.491 --> 00:44:39.631 They don't have the drive to actually go out and have real 00:44:39.781 --> 00:44:41.311 connections and relationships. 00:44:42.421 --> 00:44:44.761 like, that's super concerning. 00:44:44.761 --> 00:44:47.971 Especially speaking of like, put my, like we have a diversity of, 00:44:47.971 --> 00:44:52.591 of basically beliefs and, uh, views on all kinds of things in my team. 00:44:52.591 --> 00:44:55.321 Angel Q So what I'm gonna say here, I'm gonna say just in my personal 00:44:55.321 --> 00:44:58.741 capacity, speaking kind of as a believer, 'cause I know y'all bring, 00:44:58.741 --> 00:45:02.161 like on this podcast, you, you dig into these areas of, of like faith and how 00:45:02.161 --> 00:45:03.781 we're supposed to live in this life. 00:45:04.201 --> 00:45:09.961 Um, there's something deeply wrong and deeply missing, uh, when we 00:45:09.961 --> 00:45:11.731 don't have embodied relationships. 00:45:11.731 --> 00:45:14.671 We talked to the oxytocin earlier, like the physical thing that we're 00:45:14.671 --> 00:45:18.781 wired in by design to, to have that possible bonding with people. 00:45:20.461 --> 00:45:23.761 We gen, we have a whole generation that's being conditioned to 00:45:23.761 --> 00:45:26.611 not with people as people. 00:45:27.361 --> 00:45:31.321 basically engaging in the virtual world with people as things 00:45:31.321 --> 00:45:34.711 as you know, ends to be used. 00:45:36.121 --> 00:45:40.081 And it's almost like abuse, like when somebody takes advantage of somebody 00:45:40.081 --> 00:45:43.201 else, often there's a history of where they were abused themselves, right? 00:45:43.861 --> 00:45:45.991 Like there's a, there's a lot of correlation in that. 00:45:46.741 --> 00:45:50.041 so what's interesting is I think there's gonna be a similar correlation 00:45:50.041 --> 00:45:55.051 when you have people that are brought up live on the other side of screens, 00:45:55.051 --> 00:45:56.821 is the primary way they interact. 00:45:57.571 --> 00:46:03.811 Um, I think the dehumanizing like that's implied in that lives on, 00:46:03.811 --> 00:46:04.921 in all the ways they treat people. 00:46:05.641 --> 00:46:07.801 I think empathy gets to be super hard. 00:46:08.491 --> 00:46:10.321 know, and, you know, that's key. 00:46:10.321 --> 00:46:15.301 I mean, part of like at the root, you know, of all love is empathy. 00:46:15.301 --> 00:46:18.751 It's the putting yourself, you know, behind somebody else. 00:46:19.891 --> 00:46:23.731 that starts with viewing someone as a means, or sorry, as an end in themselves, 00:46:23.731 --> 00:46:26.281 that they're worthy, that they're of human dignity, they have human dignity 00:46:26.281 --> 00:46:27.721 'cause they were created the image of God. 00:46:29.731 --> 00:46:33.001 like when you think about what we've substituted, how is any 00:46:33.001 --> 00:46:33.961 of that gonna break through? 00:46:35.911 --> 00:46:40.621 Uh, in fact, we probably created one of the only systems take the truth 00:46:40.711 --> 00:46:47.851 of how people are like embodied and in relationships and you know, kind 00:46:47.851 --> 00:46:52.201 of obfuscate that truth by changing the way they interact and they 00:46:52.201 --> 00:46:55.591 can, it's so ubiquitous that people forget that, you know what, what's 00:46:55.591 --> 00:46:58.741 great is when I've got friends that will come help me move a couch. 00:46:59.131 --> 00:47:03.631 You know, not when I've got a hundred likes on Instagram and none of them 00:47:03.631 --> 00:47:04.921 would show up for me if I needed them. 00:47:05.401 --> 00:47:05.791 Right. 00:47:06.631 --> 00:47:08.341 So like, that's the difference. 00:47:08.371 --> 00:47:11.641 And uh, and like I said, I said, I, I don't necessarily think when 00:47:11.641 --> 00:47:14.611 I say I wanna turn that back, I wish we had never come here. 00:47:14.641 --> 00:47:17.041 I want it to go to a better place. 00:47:17.371 --> 00:47:21.391 The better place probably looks a little more like it was than it is today, and 00:47:21.391 --> 00:47:24.541 it'll be a little different because there'll be all this magic with AI 00:47:24.541 --> 00:47:26.311 where it can help them and be present. 00:47:26.311 --> 00:47:28.501 And I just think the magic is one way outta the hole. 00:47:29.671 --> 00:47:32.551 uh, that's the thing I'm hoping is, and we're, we're trying to build 00:47:32.551 --> 00:47:36.601 and build thoughtfully, is if, if it comes super easy for computers to 00:47:36.601 --> 00:47:40.201 do all this stuff, to go find stuff online for you, why in the world 00:47:40.201 --> 00:47:41.491 should you use your time up that way? 00:47:42.571 --> 00:47:42.961 Right? 00:47:43.921 --> 00:47:48.601 And uh, and if we can, like I said, make it a universe where 14 year olds see other 00:47:48.601 --> 00:47:51.511 14 year olds looking down at their phone and they're like, what's wrong with you? 00:47:52.591 --> 00:47:56.461 Like, I mean, I'm over here and like, do you have like software 00:47:56.461 --> 00:47:57.691 that's 10 years old or something? 00:47:57.751 --> 00:47:59.731 Because nobody does that anymore. 00:48:00.586 --> 00:48:02.566 That's the world I think we can still get to. 00:48:02.776 --> 00:48:06.556 Um, but it's a world that's gonna, be fault tooth and nail by some companies. 00:48:06.586 --> 00:48:08.266 I'll just name one like Meta for instance. 00:48:08.266 --> 00:48:11.956 I mean there's no way out of the model they've chosen, there's an ethical 00:48:11.956 --> 00:48:15.766 compromise at the heart of their business that I don't see how they can escape. 00:48:16.576 --> 00:48:16.936 Okay. 00:48:16.936 --> 00:48:19.966 Google for its issues, there probably is a way out. 00:48:19.996 --> 00:48:22.696 They can be a supplier of technology, they can charge people for that. 00:48:22.906 --> 00:48:25.636 They can charge companies and they can charge people and they could 00:48:25.636 --> 00:48:26.746 probably have an amazing business. 00:48:26.746 --> 00:48:27.496 It's just gonna be hard. 00:48:27.496 --> 00:48:31.606 Transitioning Meta is fundamentally a digital narcotics company, so 00:48:31.606 --> 00:48:32.386 I don't know how it gets out. 00:48:32.386 --> 00:48:33.646 I dunno how Snap gets out. 00:48:33.646 --> 00:48:35.236 I don't know how these other guys all get out. 00:48:35.596 --> 00:48:39.046 It's like asking Paolo Escobar, Hey, do you want to go sell sugar instead? 00:48:39.346 --> 00:48:39.766 You know? 00:48:40.216 --> 00:48:40.426 And 00:48:40.576 --> 00:48:40.696 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 00:48:41.566 --> 00:48:44.266 Tim Estes: yeah, I mean that's, that's what we got and uh, and so I think 00:48:44.266 --> 00:48:47.356 we're gonna see some companies, I hope that dramatically diminish in 00:48:47.356 --> 00:48:51.196 value or get totally replaced and we'll have others that maybe pivot. 00:48:51.616 --> 00:48:54.466 You can see like Microsoft and a couple of others that are trying 00:48:54.466 --> 00:48:57.736 to find a line down this to try not to go down the same dark path. 00:48:59.056 --> 00:49:01.816 what's so funny is like people talk about the gaming stuff, you know, the 00:49:01.816 --> 00:49:06.046 gaming companies, most of these had great age verification and protections 00:49:06.046 --> 00:49:09.136 on kids going back like 10, 15 years. 00:49:09.316 --> 00:49:12.136 Things that could have been put into Instagram on day one and 00:49:12.136 --> 00:49:16.216 we wouldn't have had 98% of this total garbage on it in terms of the 00:49:16.386 --> 00:49:16.606 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 00:49:17.296 --> 00:49:19.426 Tim Estes: Like it was a choice not to, it was widely known. 00:49:19.426 --> 00:49:24.316 In fact, it was weird that when you got an Xbox takes taking a credit card to be 00:49:24.316 --> 00:49:26.116 able to validate a kid getting online. 00:49:26.116 --> 00:49:26.506 Right? 00:49:26.806 --> 00:49:27.556 That's what it took. 00:49:28.426 --> 00:49:28.906 Okay. 00:49:28.906 --> 00:49:32.296 Kids signed up to be able to do gaming and multiplayer gaming online, going 00:49:32.296 --> 00:49:35.896 back to like 2011 with whatever basic kind of connection they had back then. 00:49:36.376 --> 00:49:38.146 Like had to give a credit card. 00:49:38.151 --> 00:49:38.926 Parent had to give a credit card. 00:49:40.096 --> 00:49:42.946 16, 17 year olds, or even 13 years, they're not having a credit card 00:49:43.366 --> 00:49:47.131 company won't give it to 'em, Probably be something really extraordinary. 00:49:47.131 --> 00:49:50.791 So that was almost like a bulletproof way to know this is a minor, this is the adult 00:49:50.791 --> 00:49:52.231 and the adult signing off for the minor. 00:49:53.101 --> 00:49:56.371 Nothing like that was done for these other systems. 00:49:57.301 --> 00:49:59.101 And uh, and when you go strip away, why? 00:49:59.131 --> 00:50:01.081 I'm gonna get into a little bit of the soapbox moment, but 00:50:01.081 --> 00:50:02.461 like when you strip away, why? 00:50:02.461 --> 00:50:08.281 The reason is us as adults, we can't spend six or eight hours on a screen today. 00:50:08.401 --> 00:50:10.621 I mean, we could do it part of our work and all, but we can't be 00:50:10.621 --> 00:50:13.501 sitting there like doom scrolling for four or five or six hours. 00:50:13.501 --> 00:50:14.731 We just literally can't get away with it. 00:50:14.731 --> 00:50:17.551 We got family, we got work to do, we got money to bring in. 00:50:17.851 --> 00:50:19.201 We got stuff to deal with. 00:50:19.831 --> 00:50:24.631 Um, only a tiny fraction of adults can do that, but a lot of kids can. 00:50:25.501 --> 00:50:29.251 And so what they figured out was that they get these under 18 kids on there. 00:50:29.281 --> 00:50:32.281 These ones even earlier, like, you know, 10, 11, 12, ones that 00:50:32.281 --> 00:50:33.571 legally never should have been on. 00:50:34.501 --> 00:50:37.951 Um, they're worth probably three to four times what an adult's worth. 00:50:39.451 --> 00:50:39.961 Okay. 00:50:40.291 --> 00:50:41.521 It's the same ads. 00:50:42.346 --> 00:50:42.736 Same. 00:50:42.736 --> 00:50:43.696 That way they're counting. 00:50:44.086 --> 00:50:46.546 So when you realize, when you cycle, why did they do this? 00:50:46.546 --> 00:50:48.676 Like, why this is so straightforward to fix it. 00:50:48.736 --> 00:50:51.016 You know, if once you get away from the idea that, oh, they, they 00:50:51.016 --> 00:50:52.156 can't fix it, it's just too hard. 00:50:52.156 --> 00:50:53.416 Well that's, that's never been true. 00:50:53.956 --> 00:50:56.146 So why do they not put friction in? 00:50:56.146 --> 00:51:00.166 Well, it's because if they could get enough kids addicted on it, 00:51:00.706 --> 00:51:04.606 they would be worth four times the adult in terms of time spent 00:51:04.636 --> 00:51:06.346 because they had the time to waste. 00:51:06.346 --> 00:51:07.636 I mean, they really didn't. 00:51:07.666 --> 00:51:10.786 What they did is they traded, you know, being good at athletics, they 00:51:10.786 --> 00:51:12.766 traded having time with friends. 00:51:12.766 --> 00:51:15.316 They traded, you know, volunteering with their church. 00:51:15.406 --> 00:51:17.626 They traded learning a new language. 00:51:17.626 --> 00:51:22.366 They traded all this other stuff for that virtual drug. 00:51:23.416 --> 00:51:29.296 And, um, like that, once you put that math together, like, okay, so 00:51:29.506 --> 00:51:32.776 there's 20 million kids that are 30 million kids that are illegally on 00:51:32.776 --> 00:51:37.006 these apps, or 40 million, but that's the equivalent of 120 million adults. 00:51:37.936 --> 00:51:38.416 the math. 00:51:39.286 --> 00:51:40.666 That's why they haven't fixed it. 00:51:41.566 --> 00:51:44.446 You do the math on that, and you're talking about costing them 00:51:44.806 --> 00:51:48.616 tens of billions of dollars if they actually protect the kids 00:51:48.706 --> 00:51:49.876 versus what they have today. 00:51:50.986 --> 00:51:55.486 Uh, and, you know, tens of billions of dollars ends up, you know, translating 00:51:55.486 --> 00:51:59.716 with, you know, modern types of earnings calculations to probably, I know half 00:51:59.716 --> 00:52:01.576 a trillion dollars of market cap. 00:52:04.156 --> 00:52:07.066 And so these companies, they're, they're basically eating up our kids 00:52:07.066 --> 00:52:10.366 because it's probably made them a half trillion to trillion dollars richer. 00:52:11.686 --> 00:52:12.526 And it's that simple. 00:52:12.556 --> 00:52:15.586 Like, I mean, if you want to, if someone wants to compete and gimme another 00:52:15.586 --> 00:52:17.266 explanation, I am all ears for it. 00:52:18.061 --> 00:52:19.261 having been in the trenches in this. 00:52:19.261 --> 00:52:22.111 'cause one thing I spent time on, in addition to trying to build a tool is 00:52:22.111 --> 00:52:24.631 I spent a lot of time in Washington, dc been a lot of time trying to fight 00:52:24.631 --> 00:52:26.731 for like, better safety regulations. 00:52:26.731 --> 00:52:28.501 I don't think a, a single tool can fix all this. 00:52:28.501 --> 00:52:30.541 I mean, I love what we're building, Sam. 00:52:30.541 --> 00:52:33.481 I'm so excited that you've had the great like, experience with this. 00:52:33.901 --> 00:52:37.141 Uh, even though it's our one, oh, it's like so much, so, so little 00:52:37.141 --> 00:52:38.461 of what we hope to finally have. 00:52:39.841 --> 00:52:43.741 but it's arrogant to think that a company can just do all this. 00:52:43.741 --> 00:52:46.831 I mean, maybe we've got all things are possible and we'll see, but, uh, but 00:52:47.011 --> 00:52:50.971 I really think it's a societal problem and that means the, our, our political 00:52:50.971 --> 00:52:54.901 leaders have to step up and say, you know what, when do we give digital 00:52:54.991 --> 00:52:57.901 narcotic companies basically full immunity on everything they're doing, 00:52:57.901 --> 00:52:59.276 which is basically where they live today. 00:52:59.371 --> 00:53:02.551 Like, there's very little that's broken with the courts, despite all 00:53:02.551 --> 00:53:04.771 the harms now I think that might be changing over the next year. 00:53:04.771 --> 00:53:07.201 There's some stuff pending with attorney generals and others. 00:53:07.921 --> 00:53:11.011 Um, we'll see, just like with tobacco, eventually that reckoning came. 00:53:12.241 --> 00:53:15.361 um, right now we're in that pre-Obama phase, or right in 00:53:15.361 --> 00:53:16.291 the heart of the tobacco phase. 00:53:16.291 --> 00:53:18.451 We're gonna find out if our society's gonna step up and change it. 00:53:18.541 --> 00:53:21.301 And, um, yeah, that's, uh, but that's, that's the thing. 00:53:21.301 --> 00:53:23.131 That's my mission is my calling right now. 00:53:23.161 --> 00:53:25.381 And you know, I'll be on it till we deal with it. 00:53:27.406 --> 00:53:29.056 Clif Marshall: Tim, one more thing from me. 00:53:29.176 --> 00:53:32.836 Um, we're talking about addiction today. 00:53:33.601 --> 00:53:35.581 But not drugs and not alcohol. 00:53:35.581 --> 00:53:37.561 We're talking about dopamine, right? 00:53:37.801 --> 00:53:39.301 And clicks and likes. 00:53:39.751 --> 00:53:45.931 And I read a recent Newsweek article on your angel, uh, AI product, and it said 00:53:45.931 --> 00:53:52.831 in quote, if social media is already a digital heroin for our youth, and 00:53:52.831 --> 00:53:55.711 enhanced AI will become their fentanyl. 00:53:56.186 --> 00:53:56.606 Tim Estes: Mm-hmm. 00:53:56.791 --> 00:54:00.301 Clif Marshall: And that hit me, uh, like a ton of bricks because again, I 00:54:00.301 --> 00:54:04.711 have a 10-year-old and a 14-year-old, and I'm living through this right now. 00:54:05.671 --> 00:54:08.701 uh, I think as a parent, you know, especially as you get to the teenage 00:54:08.701 --> 00:54:11.971 years, you feel the pressure of, well. 00:54:13.186 --> 00:54:17.446 The kids that my daughter's gonna school with, they all have Snap, they all 00:54:17.446 --> 00:54:19.186 have Instagram, they all have TikTok. 00:54:20.086 --> 00:54:23.506 And Dad, why are you holding that against me and even dad when I 00:54:23.506 --> 00:54:25.966 turned 13 for my 13th birthday? 00:54:25.966 --> 00:54:28.396 Would you allow me to get, uh, Snapchat? 00:54:28.876 --> 00:54:32.956 And so obviously there's a huge problem and you're working on the solution. 00:54:33.016 --> 00:54:37.216 I don't know if the solution is all the kids flip phones and I wish 00:54:37.216 --> 00:54:40.576 that could, that could solve a lot of issues if they all were, you 00:54:40.576 --> 00:54:42.046 know, carrying around flip phones. 00:54:42.376 --> 00:54:46.966 Um, I have a ton of respect for the mission that you're on. 00:54:47.416 --> 00:54:50.506 And I guess the question I have for you right now, if a parent wanted 00:54:50.506 --> 00:54:55.876 to go to the app store on an iPhone, is the Angel product already out 00:54:55.876 --> 00:54:57.226 there where you can purchase that? 00:54:58.186 --> 00:54:58.516 Tim Estes: Yeah. 00:54:58.576 --> 00:55:03.406 Uh, angel Q is live on the app store, um, for some reason. 00:55:03.556 --> 00:55:05.956 So if you, if you, if you search literally Angel Q. 00:55:06.661 --> 00:55:10.231 Uh, it, you're gonna find it, you may get it autocorrecting to Angela, 00:55:10.231 --> 00:55:13.111 and there's like four things that are called Angela in the App store. 00:55:13.111 --> 00:55:15.541 We've noticed this as a funny thing, but hopefully as we get more and more 00:55:15.541 --> 00:55:16.861 people, it's just gonna go straight to it. 00:55:17.491 --> 00:55:18.511 yes, it's there. 00:55:18.571 --> 00:55:20.821 Uh, it's, it's a great tool for five to 12 year olds. 00:55:20.821 --> 00:55:23.431 We do have some older kids, 13, 14, that are on it. 00:55:23.431 --> 00:55:24.991 Love the answers and so forth. 00:55:26.311 --> 00:55:29.101 picking up what you said though, in your, um, like your point Cliff, 00:55:29.101 --> 00:55:32.821 like, I think for parents, um, that are getting that conversation with 00:55:32.821 --> 00:55:35.941 their kid, you know, 13, they wanna be on Snapchat or something else. 00:55:36.541 --> 00:55:42.961 Um, really I would, I mean, I, I I, I fully endorse sort of, uh, some of the, 00:55:43.051 --> 00:55:46.141 some of the ideas that Jonathan Hyde has put out, like an anxious generation, and 00:55:46.141 --> 00:55:48.901 one of those is no social media till 16. 00:55:48.991 --> 00:55:52.381 Like, I, I think that, and even then, I mean, I'm almost wondering 00:55:52.381 --> 00:55:53.701 like, is it really needed? 00:55:53.851 --> 00:55:54.481 I mean, it's, it's 00:55:54.491 --> 00:55:54.911 Clif Marshall: Mm-hmm. 00:55:54.931 --> 00:56:01.111 Tim Estes: things where, the reason is you're literally throwing them 00:56:01.111 --> 00:56:03.421 into Times Square without a guide. 00:56:05.281 --> 00:56:06.361 It isn't just even that simple. 00:56:06.391 --> 00:56:08.491 There are people lurking knowing they're coming. 00:56:09.361 --> 00:56:13.291 if you've got a 13-year-old girl growing in a snapshot, she's gonna get essentially 00:56:13.291 --> 00:56:16.441 digitally sexually assaulted multiple times within the first year she's on it. 00:56:16.861 --> 00:56:19.681 I just guarantee you there, she's gonna get people sending her 00:56:19.681 --> 00:56:23.161 stuff, random people, because they haven't put these protections up. 00:56:24.301 --> 00:56:29.821 they, they, you know, they have some sort of, each Instagram teams now this product 00:56:29.821 --> 00:56:32.941 and then, and Snap, they try to add some things in the last year or two because 00:56:32.941 --> 00:56:36.001 Congress was coming down once they finally were forced to try to do something. 00:56:36.751 --> 00:56:41.401 even in the last, um, I think week and a half, there was a, I'll send a story 00:56:41.401 --> 00:56:43.651 offline maybe if you want to include it with the notes on the podcast. 00:56:43.651 --> 00:56:46.591 But like, there are some kids that, um. 00:56:47.251 --> 00:56:48.721 Basically did a deep dive. 00:56:48.721 --> 00:56:50.221 These are like college kids. 00:56:50.221 --> 00:56:53.311 They, so they're Gen Zers who have grown up with all this stuff happened 00:56:53.311 --> 00:56:55.531 to them and they, they run two groups. 00:56:55.531 --> 00:56:57.391 One's called Design It for Us, and the other's called 00:56:57.391 --> 00:56:58.501 the Young People's Alliance. 00:56:58.951 --> 00:57:02.161 And they've been on Capitol Hill, you know, arguing for safety standards 00:57:02.161 --> 00:57:04.531 for these apps because of what's happened to their generation. 00:57:05.401 --> 00:57:08.641 they went and tested in Strine and they were getting just unbelievable 00:57:08.641 --> 00:57:10.141 stuff, still coming straight through. 00:57:10.981 --> 00:57:14.011 It's like they don't want the safety stuff to work no matter 00:57:14.011 --> 00:57:15.421 what they keep telling people. 00:57:15.811 --> 00:57:19.021 Um, and you know, given the math I gave you earlier, probably, you know, 00:57:19.021 --> 00:57:20.461 why they may not really want to work. 00:57:20.461 --> 00:57:22.081 Like if they're gonna have, be forced to do it. 00:57:22.561 --> 00:57:27.991 So if that's the environment, like is the dis is the disapproval of your 00:57:27.991 --> 00:57:30.391 child worth the risk to your child? 00:57:31.501 --> 00:57:34.381 I think that's the hard question. 00:57:35.011 --> 00:57:40.081 And it's hard as a parent is, you know, taking the, your, your 00:57:40.081 --> 00:57:44.071 kid's disapproval is one of the hardest things as a dad you can do. 00:57:45.061 --> 00:57:49.141 Um, at the same time, it's absolutely one of the most important things you ever do 00:57:49.141 --> 00:57:54.121 as a dad is take on your kids' disapproval because you know, you have, you know, 00:57:54.121 --> 00:57:57.991 you have great intent for them and you have years and years of life lessons. 00:57:57.991 --> 00:58:02.821 And when you second guess yourself on it, I mean, there'll be a, occasionally 00:58:02.881 --> 00:58:05.551 the thing where they're right about something as they get older and they 00:58:05.551 --> 00:58:08.221 get their own means, but they're still gonna be wrong most of the time. 00:58:09.031 --> 00:58:12.421 And, you know, we're, we're here to be true to ourselves and protect them. 00:58:12.421 --> 00:58:15.481 We're not here to be their then they we're their dad. 00:58:15.661 --> 00:58:16.681 We're not their buddy. 00:58:16.711 --> 00:58:18.841 Like just making them happy with stuff. 00:58:18.841 --> 00:58:22.681 Like we're here to give them a fruitful life and protect them along the way. 00:58:23.131 --> 00:58:27.241 And even more fully teach them the how to get wisdom to protect themselves. 00:58:27.421 --> 00:58:28.441 'cause we won't always be there. 00:58:29.026 --> 00:58:31.306 Uh, and so that, so that's what I'd say. 00:58:31.306 --> 00:58:35.296 So I, I, I definitely angel cues in the App store, people can go pull it down. 00:58:35.626 --> 00:58:38.296 I think it'll, you know, do some great things for your family. 00:58:38.296 --> 00:58:42.376 It's not a replacement for like every addictive act by design, but it is 00:58:42.376 --> 00:58:46.006 a way that you can leave YouTube and Google behind and have your kid 00:58:46.006 --> 00:58:49.486 do some great stuff in a way that's thoughtfully done and affirmative 00:58:49.516 --> 00:58:51.136 and learn about them in the process. 00:58:51.346 --> 00:58:53.476 All that's the promises I can say we're gonna keep. 00:58:54.616 --> 00:58:58.726 but beyond that, when you're dealing with older kids, like, do not be 00:58:58.726 --> 00:59:02.476 bullied by your, you know, your bullied be the wrong word, but like, not be 00:59:02.476 --> 00:59:06.196 moved by this pressure on your child. 00:59:06.886 --> 00:59:10.666 your kid is not going to do something horrible to themselves because they do not 00:59:10.666 --> 00:59:17.206 have Snap or or whatever, or, you know, any of the meta products or Instagram 00:59:17.721 --> 00:59:20.536 or TikTok, they're not gonna do that. 00:59:20.896 --> 00:59:24.436 But if they go on it, because we let them on it. 00:59:25.036 --> 00:59:26.566 You might end up with a Gavin Guffey. 00:59:26.566 --> 00:59:30.526 I don't know if you know the situation or know that name, but there's a wonderful 00:59:30.526 --> 00:59:31.696 human being named Brandon Guffey. 00:59:31.696 --> 00:59:33.496 He's a state representative in South Carolina. 00:59:34.456 --> 00:59:40.876 And um, uh, he, he had protections like in his house, like on his devices, like, 00:59:40.876 --> 00:59:45.586 and they, they had certain standards and he had a, a 17-year-old boy who 00:59:45.586 --> 00:59:51.556 was on Instagram and uh, and this, they were going for family vacation, you 00:59:51.556 --> 00:59:55.156 know, they were go, they were about to go to family vacation the next day and 00:59:55.186 --> 00:59:57.136 11 o'clock at night or midnight or so. 00:59:57.196 --> 01:00:00.946 Um, you know, his son Gavin is on Instagram and some attractive girl 01:00:00.946 --> 01:00:02.356 starts really flirting with him Right. 01:00:02.656 --> 01:00:06.406 And starts chatting, you know, with him and then eventually escalates 01:00:06.406 --> 01:00:07.606 it over an hour or two online. 01:00:07.636 --> 01:00:08.896 'cause this stuff has no friction. 01:00:08.896 --> 01:00:14.326 It's going full fast uh, sends some pictures then ask him for it. 01:00:15.076 --> 01:00:18.136 And then as soon as he sends it along at like 1:00 AM in the 01:00:18.136 --> 01:00:20.926 morning or 1230, which is another estimate, it's like there really is 01:00:20.926 --> 01:00:22.486 no good use of digital technology. 01:00:22.966 --> 01:00:26.776 Like after, after, you know, probably after eight o'clock, you know, like, 01:00:26.776 --> 01:00:29.806 unless you can locked down to just things that help their schooling. 01:00:30.736 --> 01:00:32.386 And that might be possible, but it's pretty hard. 01:00:32.626 --> 01:00:33.586 Like it ain't worth it. 01:00:33.616 --> 01:00:35.176 It just, there's just nothing. 01:00:35.181 --> 01:00:38.266 My, my wife has phrase like, nothing good happens after dark on that kind of stuff. 01:00:38.266 --> 01:00:38.596 So, 01:00:40.906 --> 01:00:42.436 but one here, that's how the story ends. 01:00:42.526 --> 01:00:48.226 Uh, supposed girl immediately flips on him and starts blackmailing him 01:00:48.256 --> 01:00:50.896 and says they're gonna send this picture out to all the friends and the 01:00:50.896 --> 01:00:55.696 rest of it and just berates him and tears in them for like an hour or so. 01:00:55.696 --> 01:01:01.246 It turns out it's actually a Nigerian gang that, um, um, were, they're 01:01:01.246 --> 01:01:05.116 called the Yahoo Boys and, uh, they did this to all kinds of kids. 01:01:07.066 --> 01:01:13.216 And Gavin, uh, in despair, uh, probably would love to be a pretty solid, you know, 01:01:13.276 --> 01:01:17.326 citizen life as a, as a teenager in his high school and engagement had a certain 01:01:17.326 --> 01:01:18.616 kinda reputation he killed himself. 01:01:19.936 --> 01:01:20.266 So 01:01:20.361 --> 01:01:20.581 Clif Marshall: Wow. 01:01:20.596 --> 01:01:24.016 Tim Estes: his dad, you know, had to go wake up to that. 01:01:25.126 --> 01:01:28.426 and uh, and then this is how sick these people are. 01:01:28.846 --> 01:01:33.196 They actually contacted him, the dad and the younger brother, and 01:01:33.196 --> 01:01:37.576 tried to blackmail them too the older brother had killed himself. 01:01:38.356 --> 01:01:38.656 And it was 01:01:38.746 --> 01:01:39.286 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 01:01:39.346 --> 01:01:39.586 Tim Estes: thing. 01:01:39.586 --> 01:01:41.836 They actually passed a law in South Carolina called Gavin's Law. 01:01:42.766 --> 01:01:46.396 Um, and you know, I've more, I've walked the Halls of Congress 01:01:46.396 --> 01:01:47.596 with, with Brandon Guffey. 01:01:47.626 --> 01:01:50.866 I say he's a good, decent human being Who's taking that pain? 01:01:51.226 --> 01:01:53.686 I mean, we we're parents like, there's nothing worse. 01:01:53.716 --> 01:01:55.996 Our nightmare, right, is losing one of our kids. 01:01:56.371 --> 01:01:59.611 Like everything else, it's like, you could take anything from me, but not that. 01:01:59.641 --> 01:02:00.031 Right? 01:02:01.021 --> 01:02:04.231 And this is why, you know, the, the story with, you know, Abraham 01:02:04.231 --> 01:02:05.551 and Isaac so important, right? 01:02:05.551 --> 01:02:08.821 Is there's nothing so greater than the love you've got for your kid. 01:02:08.821 --> 01:02:13.441 And losing that is the hardest thing to deal with in life. 01:02:13.651 --> 01:02:17.251 So any parent that has had that happen and they find the courage to go, 01:02:17.371 --> 01:02:21.691 basically go on the march with it, take that pain, have to relive it, and I've, 01:02:21.721 --> 01:02:23.581 I've met numb tons of those parents. 01:02:24.361 --> 01:02:29.071 Um, like we need to listen to them and not just with what they 01:02:29.071 --> 01:02:30.511 say we should do to protect kids. 01:02:30.901 --> 01:02:32.101 We need to listen to them. 01:02:32.101 --> 01:02:35.521 And what they're also saying, which is it really wasn't worth it to have 01:02:35.521 --> 01:02:37.351 actually given my kid access to that. 01:02:38.311 --> 01:02:38.821 And, 01:02:38.881 --> 01:02:38.961 Clif Marshall: Hmm. 01:02:39.361 --> 01:02:41.281 Tim Estes: and I think so I, I just leave that stick with, I, you've got 01:02:41.281 --> 01:02:44.521 some great listeners on here and, you know, everybody's got their opinion 01:02:44.521 --> 01:02:47.131 with this, but I'm gonna say, you know, there's a huge virtue in just 01:02:47.131 --> 01:02:51.211 staying strong and saying no to it. 01:02:51.991 --> 01:02:55.771 Um, I'm hopeful the next two to three years or so, uh, we'll have 01:02:55.771 --> 01:02:59.431 alternatives where they'll end up, you know, for the younger kids, 01:02:59.701 --> 01:03:01.081 like, it just won't be as appealing. 01:03:01.141 --> 01:03:01.951 It won't be as interesting. 01:03:01.951 --> 01:03:03.451 There won't be an Instagram childhood. 01:03:04.171 --> 01:03:06.361 Um, that's what I hope can happen, but that's hope. 01:03:06.361 --> 01:03:07.531 Right Now, that's not a reality. 01:03:07.801 --> 01:03:12.301 The reality of today, if your kid's facing it, is, don't send 'em to the wolves. 01:03:15.736 --> 01:03:16.336 Sam Acho: Wow. 01:03:17.146 --> 01:03:17.806 Wow. 01:03:18.976 --> 01:03:25.576 Well, Tim, thank you so much, uh, for not just joining the podcast 01:03:26.236 --> 01:03:32.206 or the conversation, but joining the fight to not just protect 01:03:32.206 --> 01:03:40.066 your children, but protect so many children who are in the digital space. 01:03:40.426 --> 01:03:44.626 Now, we are grateful for your time, for your insight. 01:03:44.626 --> 01:03:47.326 For the last you said talk about three decades. 01:03:48.706 --> 01:03:49.306 Fighting. 01:03:49.366 --> 01:03:52.756 I think that the term people called you was like the digital police for a while 01:03:52.756 --> 01:03:55.786 before you started what you're doing now, 01:03:55.981 --> 01:03:56.461 Tim Estes: by the way. 01:03:56.461 --> 01:03:57.091 So yeah, 01:03:58.246 --> 01:03:59.386 Sam Acho: the Robo Cop. 01:03:59.686 --> 01:04:00.226 Well, 01:04:00.241 --> 01:04:02.101 Tim Estes: My fun, my kids had so much fun with it, so I. 01:04:03.076 --> 01:04:03.736 Sam Acho: I love it. 01:04:03.826 --> 01:04:04.636 I love it, man. 01:04:04.636 --> 01:04:09.136 We're so grateful for you, for your doing and building at Angel Q, angel 01:04:09.136 --> 01:04:13.126 ai, and even the stories you shared about your son, angel, uh, and 01:04:13.126 --> 01:04:15.256 also your 9-year-old son as well. 01:04:15.826 --> 01:04:19.876 For anyone who wants to learn more about Tim, there's information about Angel 01:04:19.876 --> 01:04:22.216 online, but also go to sam macho.com. 01:04:22.216 --> 01:04:26.956 You'll be able to get all the info about this podcast and so many more, and so much 01:04:26.956 --> 01:04:29.056 more of what Tim and his team are doing. 01:04:29.176 --> 01:04:33.496 So on behalf of me, Sam Macho, cliff Marshall, Tim Estes, we say thank you. 01:04:33.766 --> 01:04:34.666 We'll see you next time.