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Good morning Grid Connections listeners and welcome back to Grid Connections podcast where
clean energy, electric vehicles and the grid converge.

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Today we're joined by Aubrey Gunnels.

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She's the CEO of 3V Infrastructure to take us on a deep dive into the future of electric
vehicle infrastructure, overcoming charging deserts and scaling sustainable solutions

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across the United States.

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Aubrey shares critical insights on how data-driven planning can accelerate EV adoption,
the importance of strategic partnerships for expanding charging networks,

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and real-world challenges and solutions 3V infrastructure is pioneering through their
business model, all using their unique financial modeling for making their electric

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vehicle charging sites as efficient as possible and as reliant for the EV driver as can
be.

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If you've ever wondered how the industry plans to meet the rapidly growing electric
vehicle demand or are curious about the role of smart infrastructure in the energy

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transition, this episode is packed with actual takeaways you'll want to hear.

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Make sure to share this episode with at least one person passionate about clean energy and
electric vehicle infrastructure as well.

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Your referrals help spread these vital conversations.

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And if you enjoyed this discussion, please leave us a positive review on your favorite
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It helps us reach even more listeners.

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Plus, don't forget to sign up for our brand new newsletter for exclusive insights,
industry trends, and podcast updates, which can all be found in today's show notes.

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And as always, this episode was brought to you by Great Connections Consulting, your
trusted guide in navigating the evolving landscape of electric vehicles, charging

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infrastructure, and clean energy innovation.

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With that, enjoy.

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Yeah, so Aubrey Gunnels, I'm the CEO and one of the co-founders of 3V Infrastructure.

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So we are a level two EV charger charge point operator.

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an industry termed CPO, where we really see ourselves as we deploy capital to build more
level two chargers um and specifically focus on the multifamily space, especially right

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now with a no capex, no op-ex option for property owners.

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um And that really comes out of

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The majority of charging happens at home.

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30 % of Americans live in multi-family homes and about 5 % of those buildings have
chargers today.

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So really try to bridge that gap as it relates to creating access to UV chargers where
people live.

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That's great.

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I think actually, I know we were kind of talking a little bit about this before we went
live, but let's try and kind of unpack the multifamily part of it.

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Cause I know we have a lot of our listeners who either work in that space and are curious
to kind of learn more.

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Uh, but we'd love to kind of learn more about how 3V is helping with that and what kind of
led to the focus for that realm specifically, where you're seeing a lot of the traction.

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Yeah, definitely.

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so multifamily, uh, so you charge your car, like you charge your phone, which is at, um,
at home or, know, at rest.

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Um, so it's very different than how you fill up your normal gas, um, gas tank.

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So to solve for that, uh, multifamily is extremely important as it relates to 30 % of the
population, um, in the U S and that's really through, it's very similar to maybe shared

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laundry or.

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the WiFi in the building is not owned by the property owner.

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It is normally a third party owner and operator of those types of amenities.

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And that's for a variety of reasons, including that it is just a whole nother type of
business operations.

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So it's really trying to create those charging opportunities at multifamily buildings.

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So our clients are large real estate REITs or medium size or small.

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And we really work at the portfolio level to say, we will take your portfolio.

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We will

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or will rank order the sites of basically saying in the first year we will build these
sites and so on and so forth.

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And that's really driven by localized EV penetration rates and growth curves.

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um And through that, we own the charger for 12 to 10 years.

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um We will go back and build more if that demand uh makes sense.

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And then uh drivers just pay at the charger directly for how much they use.

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So we outsource the software to best-in-class software.

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We outsource the construction of the chargers to best-in-class of regional EPC and
construction partners.

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And really we see ourselves as we are here to deploy capital and asset manage as more of a
traditional infrastructure investment would be in other asset classes.

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Yeah.

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And that's kind of interesting because like from the building side of it and kind of
actual financing model, it makes sense for a lot of, like you're talking about, especially

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even in multifamily for a lot of the different services that might be at one of these
sites.

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What was it specifically?

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Uh, if you can share that drew you to EV charging of all those, cause there is obviously a
lot of different business models, but like speaking of the capex and the OpEx of it,

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that's a really interesting perspective that we probably don't.

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A of listeners probably either don't think about or hear as much.

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I think that might become interesting to kind of pull that apart a little more.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I actually started, I've always wanted this infrastructure technology policy kind of
intersection.

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And through that and the infrastructure bill, I was advising state DOTs on Nevi.

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um And so that's really how I got into EV charging specifically, but I've always spent
time in the infrastructure space.

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uh So just through that, I worked at a company that we're really focusing on level two.

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um And that became very obvious of

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just the focus and the importance of level two in the ecosystem.

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95 % of chargers are level two and 95 % of all charging happens at a level two charger.

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So it's just critically important.

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And it became very clear that there is a lot of softwares in the space that are pretty
mature and all competing in a great aspirational market.

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Then we have the hardware that is very much a commodity at this point.

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ah But then what was really missing is the infrastructure long hold piece that is really
critical to building these kind of projects.

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So we've seen CPOs over the years, so like charge point links to the world that we're
trying to do all three.

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And that is really hard, especially as a publicly traded company.

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If you are trying to get VC returns for a long-term hold asset, then those things
contradict each other.

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So while I think maybe in five or 10 years, it will make sense to then bring all these
assets back together in the same stack.

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um The way that just like the capital works is that you should really focus on, so we are
solely focused on looking at it from an infrastructure long-term hold.

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That means the returns are not going up like an S curve that like you'd see in VC, but
still interesting enough that you can attract ah infrastructure dollars to it.

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It can, no, I appreciate the kind of the detail that so like looking at, think probably
from the perspective of a lot of electric vehicle drivers and just seeing how the

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technology, just even on the charging side has kind of evolved over the years.

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And you might roll up to a level two charger that is either been out of commission or is
clearly not like maybe not all of the chargers are operating at like, or a couple might be

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down.

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And I'm curious, like when you look at.

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financing of this and you're working with like sites, how does maybe like long-term, mean,
especially speaking to some of the CPOs you mentioned, like how does the long-term

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management of the site kind of play into that financial model and kind of how your team
might also kind of help to ensure that the sites stay up over time.

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Yeah.

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like down chargers is the big thorn of the entire industry.

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And that, um, I believe one of the largest reasons that we have so many stranded assets is
because they were bad deals.

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So there had some really people had models and they were trying to, you know, finance
getting these chargers in the ground.

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So it used to be property owner.

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Um, I will pay you whatever a month for you to let me put a charger on your property.

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And without factoring in how much O it would cost or whatever it is.

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And now it's flipped to say, property owner, you pay me in order to let a charger, to
build a charger that's more for public charging, but nonetheless is, uh the flip is the

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script is flipped.

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And that is because there's some realities to the financing of it that created these
really bad deals that no one is financially incentivized to make sure they work.

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Cause you just will never drive enough revenue at that site to maintain it.

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And for that reason, there's no.

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there's no one there to make sure it works.

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And that's just, you know, how markets work.

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I think it's one for us to win in the space and for anyone to win the space right now is
to make sure that we are signing, you know, deals that make sure that these companies are

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here for, for a long time and making sure that, that, uh, like we can't really, it's
funny, we keep talking to some property owners and they're like, like they used to be able

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to pay us to put chargers on the properties.

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It's like those deals no longer exist.

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they might like they you will not find them in the market.

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And that is because people have done the math.

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No one is willing to put that kind of capital at risk.

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Interesting so I think that just covered a lot of interesting topics because once again
from like the perspective of the EV driver you kind of roll up Whether it's free you have

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to pay or whatever At the end of the day what you really want is whether the charge works
or it doesn't work So I'm kind of curious about You're kind of talking about some of these

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Not necessarily bad actors, but bad executions and can you maybe highlight a little bit
more of like?

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what a bad execution has been in it.

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It sounds like a big part, obviously is the expectation that there might be a financial
reimbursement for the location, but also then kind of highlight specifically what makes

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like a great uh site.

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So if someone is listening, like, maybe my uh gas station I have or something in my real
estate portfolio doesn't work, but this site would actually be great for this kind of

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investment.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, so for three V we get paid if the charger use it, if the driver uses the charger.

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we're not a technology firm.

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We are here to deploy capital and hold it.

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We work with great technology partners, but we really only get paid if someone uses the
charger.

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So that means the charger has to be up and that means they have to be in some form
delightful to use.

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Otherwise you can go somewhere else.

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um But what we think, so we take full utilization risk.

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So that means that someone has to use the charger for us to get paid.

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That is the riskiest form of infrastructure investing because infrastructure investing
does not take consumer driven.

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risk like that is just most infrastructure is some sort of contracted cash flows.

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So that's what really makes our model unique and also why the space is very risky, but
nonetheless.

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the way that we, our investment strategy can work is within multifamily specifically, and
that is because we see multifamily buildings as like a microcosm of localized adoption.

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So if you have a 400 unit building and say that the adoption into your city is about 10%.

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then you can say with enough confidence that that building has at least 5 % adoption.

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And we have models and data that back that up in much more detail, but to simplify it.

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um the intention of that is to say, if we're betting on that, then we can also bet on how
much the demand of that building is, because based off of vehicles miles traveled, the

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VMT, the em battery efficiency and things of that nature,

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can take all those assumptions and say, in a year, I can expect the KWH at this building
to be blah in the year.

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And then you can kind of model out what you expect the revenues to be.

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And that's really important of how we decide which uh chargers and which properties to
build first and also how many chargers to build.

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So we see multifamily as extremely interesting.

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um And then when you think of other types of asset classes and specifically in level two,
and I'll speak to level two because I don't think people talk about level two enough.

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Um, because while level three plays a very important role in range anxiety, the majority
of charging happens at a level two charger.

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and so I think when you think three of where you would spend the most time at a longer
dwell charger, um, it's really not at a grocery store.

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It's really not at a shopping, at a shopping area.

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It's when we think about work, it's kind of interesting.

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When you think about hospitals, it's pretty interesting.

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When you think about hotels, it's pretty interesting.

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Um, but in those places.

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the demand for that revenue and the demand for usage is a lot harder to model and a lot
harder to bet against.

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I consider investing betting, but nonetheless, because you're really just trying to make
an educated assumption that you can say with whatever shot of a doubt, you can get your

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money back next time um and can give money back to my investors type of thing.

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But so I do think hotels are really interesting.

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Hotels do pose an interesting challenge of just you can't say hyper localized adoption.

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You also can't look at traffic patterns.

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Like there's a lot of things that go into hotels that make it really hard to invest in the
hotel model, which is why I think we're seeing a lot.

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Why are we seeing also an equally large gap in hotel um EV charging projects?

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uh so all to say, would say multifamily first.

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I would put hospital second, just because I think they're really interesting.

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They're 24-7 like workplaces with the captured, like you have to park at the hospital.

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And then I think hotels would be third.

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And is that driven kind of by dwell time?

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Because you mentioned some of these things that locations, other people have mentioned as
doing it, but it seems like the ones that you're specifically targeting seem to be like

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the highest return is the ones that have kind of a higher dwell time than maybe going to
the grocery where you're there depending for like maybe 30 minutes.

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Yeah, it's like when you charge your phone and say you just got a new phone, so like the
battery is at its peak.

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How many times would you charge it just overnight or like while you're at work or like
when you come home and you're going to charge it for 45 minutes and then take it off the

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charger?

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That's like not normally a charging pattern.

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It's not so obscene that you'd like.

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So it's just so much easier to do, to just do it when you're not thinking about it.

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And so really the long dwell is really important in thinking about consumer habits.

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And is that mostly why hospitals stand out to you?

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it the time?

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Or are there any other things that kind of make that specifically a unique opportunity?

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I think they're interesting because workplaces, they're obviously five days a week and
then during the workday versus hospitals are 24-7 workplaces.

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So that becomes interesting.

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um They just have a lot of available power, which is like...

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going ask about too, is the actual power of the site because that can usually be a big
determining factor.

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think probably more so for multifamily home locations sometimes.

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Is that probably what you'd say as well for what your team runs into?

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Yeah, it's definitely interesting.

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think, especially as you start getting into like buildings that were built before the
eighties, it becomes a challenge.

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I would say between the load share software out there.

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That really also does help quite a bit.

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And that just because if you say you have, you know, six cars on the charger and they all
have to load share and some capacity, you can still, they can all charge within the eight

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hour timeframe and still get full at the end.

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It doesn't really matter.

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to them whether they charged at 2 a.m.

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or at midnight.

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So I think that technology is really interesting.

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And so think as we see battery prices go down, there'll be more of a demand of how can we
make the financials pencil with battery technology.

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It is not there yet.

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Anyone that says otherwise is, it does not pencil.

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But as we see those prices go down, I think it'll be interesting to start uh using
batteries on projects.

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Yeah, one other thing you kind of mentioned was like when you were looking at some of
these models that you present to clients, you're talking about, well, we can safely say

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there's 10 % probably adoption, but we're going to go with 5 % on the safe side for what
we should do for this implementation at the site.

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Does your team kind of like when you're looking at the financial model of it, is it with
the idea to expand, is that built into a lot of these financial models or to like almost

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kind of future proof.

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mean, it's interesting when you talk also about site sharing, cause that does kind of get
into, or, the power sharing over time that kind of gets into a little bit of that.

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I'm just kind of curious how that plays into, um, maybe the site selection for your team.

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Yeah.

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Um, we definitely look at expansion.

195
00:16:37,995 --> 00:16:49,195
think expansion is really, so there's like somewhere of a balance of like, if I build say,
well, just like, say I build four chargers today, but then I have to go back and build

196
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four more in two years.

197
00:16:50,655 --> 00:16:58,755
Then like, that was not a great use of resources because we could have built it for a
smaller price that we built at the beginning.

198
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Um, so, but then say I build.

199
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:08,934
You know, say I build 12 today and then I don't have to go back and build more chargers
until, you know, you're six or seven.

200
00:17:08,934 --> 00:17:22,195
Um, and also my breakeven point is then surpassed my cost of capital about there's like
the financial piece to it is ultimately like, it is not, I just don't think it's like

201
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private equity being stingy.

202
00:17:24,668 --> 00:17:29,081
It's very much, it is a risky, it is a risk to say how many do you need today?

203
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And then how much will the technology evolve?

204
00:17:31,185 --> 00:17:32,665
what does adoption really look like?

205
00:17:32,665 --> 00:17:41,768
So it's like trying to make a safe estimate of what can we say is conservative enough that
like I can give my investors their money back while also saying, how can I provide the

206
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best amenity possible to residents um and then be able to go back and build more if demand
uh hits?

207
00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:53,675
So we also cap all of our models at 30 % utilization.

208
00:17:53,675 --> 00:17:57,662
And that's really where we find the best uh resident experience.

209
00:17:57,662 --> 00:18:00,283
So we're also only happy if

210
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Like if a building's getting a bad Google reveal because the EV charges are always full,
then like that is someone that does not want to do business with us in the long term.

211
00:18:08,895 --> 00:18:12,535
And we assign very long partnerships with clients.

212
00:18:12,535 --> 00:18:21,895
So it's also finding the right balance of making it fair to the resident while also making
sure that everyone else is secure.

213
00:18:21,895 --> 00:18:28,895
Otherwise we ended up with stranded assets or like EV companies go under too often right
now.

214
00:18:29,668 --> 00:18:30,848
Exactly.

215
00:18:31,667 --> 00:18:31,789
Yeah.

216
00:18:31,789 --> 00:18:42,184
And I think what's funny, mean, when you were saying earlier kind of around gambling and I
guess the old saying that investment is kind of like legalized gambling, but there is also

217
00:18:42,184 --> 00:18:46,246
that point where you do have to kind of go through those variables and make sure it kind
of works for everyone.

218
00:18:46,246 --> 00:18:53,629
Cause I think unfortunately there have been so many of the negative experiences and even
publicity around stranded assets.

219
00:18:53,663 --> 00:18:58,346
and whether it be they're broken, they're not working, they're too expensive, all this.

220
00:18:58,447 --> 00:19:06,402
And I think this is why it's really interesting to have you and your team on to kind of
talk about this because there's so many variables that go into a site selection and site

221
00:19:06,402 --> 00:19:17,300
design in the background that just doesn't register or in the moment kind of click with
the EV driver and especially moving forward why it's so important to make sure that these

222
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:21,927
sites are uh just essentially reliable first.

223
00:19:21,927 --> 00:19:28,529
and then trying to figure out that long-term strategy of making sure that they have the
right site number, the right utilization and all of that.

224
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:37,453
I guess to kind of go a little from that, we've talked about, obviously pretty in-depth
about how it works on the backend.

225
00:19:37,453 --> 00:19:41,185
I mean, for the average EV driver, is it going to be...

226
00:19:41,185 --> 00:19:51,241
They could go to one site and expect what would be a 3V infrastructure site to have
essentially a different CPO or vendor uh

227
00:19:51,241 --> 00:19:55,594
that they would plug in and then they go to another three V infrastructure site.

228
00:19:55,594 --> 00:19:58,676
It seems likely that they're actually going to use another CPO there.

229
00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:07,152
I mean, as far as the normal EV driver, three V infrastructure is really doing all this
and making this help, help them in the background.

230
00:20:07,152 --> 00:20:20,261
Or are there any things that an average EV driver might engage or realize is three V
technology or investment without uh knowing it a day to day, if that makes sense.

231
00:20:20,473 --> 00:20:20,863
Yeah.

232
00:20:20,863 --> 00:20:24,366
Um, I mean, my goal is for drivers to never contact us.

233
00:20:24,366 --> 00:20:27,218
And that is because we were normal business hours.

234
00:20:27,218 --> 00:20:38,116
So like, if you have a problem outside of those hours, then like we cannot help and would
not have the to go into the charger and say what fault code it is, et cetera.

235
00:20:38,116 --> 00:20:40,578
Um, and that is why we are trying.

236
00:20:40,578 --> 00:20:48,183
So we are trying to stay in our lane because there are incredible, incredible softwares,
incredible companies out there that there's no.

237
00:20:48,455 --> 00:20:51,975
there is no reason that we should be recreating the wheel on it.

238
00:20:52,155 --> 00:21:03,015
So I hope that they don't interact with us, but I would say, you know, if you had a true,
yeah, if you had a true EV nerd, yeah, but I think like EV nerds are EV nerds, which are

239
00:21:03,015 --> 00:21:06,855
the best while also being extremely, like they are what they are.

240
00:21:06,855 --> 00:21:15,771
But nonetheless, if you can figure out which, you know, properties we work with, then
hopefully we will become known as the most, you know.

241
00:21:15,771 --> 00:21:25,407
a reliable network and that if you live in a building with a 3B infrastructure charger, uh
financed by 3B, then it's reliable and it'll be up.

242
00:21:25,407 --> 00:21:28,752
um And hopefully we can have that branding.

243
00:21:28,752 --> 00:21:30,379
oh

244
00:21:30,379 --> 00:21:37,115
speaks to me on a lot of levels, not just as an EV driver, but also kind of from coming
from a background and kind of the tech account management space.

245
00:21:37,115 --> 00:21:40,558
If you've done the job right, they shouldn't have to call you.

246
00:21:40,558 --> 00:21:49,726
And obviously when things do go wrong, as long as you have the right systems in place, a
lot of this should solve itself or happen before the customer even recognizes it.

247
00:21:49,726 --> 00:21:56,543
So I think as silly as it kind of sounds or funny as it might sound to people, like the
fact that no one is calling you is the ideal.

248
00:21:56,543 --> 00:22:05,360
ah goal to have and kind of strategy to make sure you're helping to ensure that there is
this high level of reliability and a good site experience for the user.

249
00:22:05,662 --> 00:22:06,277
So.

250
00:22:06,277 --> 00:22:19,078
Yeah, it's been interesting too of just like adding data and process to this space is
like, some of it seems so easy, but it's just, is putting data by site and you know, and

251
00:22:19,078 --> 00:22:27,665
tracking it in a centralized way is, is we are setting ourselves up for like long term and
also hyperscale.

252
00:22:27,665 --> 00:22:30,207
So hopefully that'll pay off.

253
00:22:30,589 --> 00:22:38,872
No, and I think it's definitely a strategy that makes it much more proactive versus I
think a lot of players in the space, whether it be due to lack of technology in place,

254
00:22:38,872 --> 00:22:48,956
being more reactive and creating these bad experiences that also kind of make the driver
feel helpless, uh as opposed to now moving to more of a technology first proactive

255
00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:53,048
experience to it where things get solved before the driver and realize there was ever an
issue with the site.

256
00:22:53,048 --> 00:23:00,381
uh Now, can I take a step back from the perspective of the site owner?

257
00:23:00,659 --> 00:23:06,774
Who kind of, do they just work with you directly or how, who kind of, pays for what if I
was a site owner?

258
00:23:06,774 --> 00:23:18,195
I'm kind of curious of are you the single point of contact or is it kind of you help kind
of get the people together almost as like a project manager versus maybe the point of

259
00:23:18,195 --> 00:23:19,065
contact.

260
00:23:19,545 --> 00:23:24,698
Yeah, so we, so we normally work with property portfolio owners.

261
00:23:24,698 --> 00:23:33,983
So say you're like you own a hundred properties, let's say, um we will work with you that
probably the legal piece is signed through you.

262
00:23:33,983 --> 00:23:43,208
But then if you say you own a hundred properties, you're probably divided into regions or
something that then you have your regional asset management teams.

263
00:23:43,408 --> 00:23:49,391
But also we have found that real estate groups are structured in very unique ways and
there is very little.

264
00:23:49,423 --> 00:23:59,267
Um, there's very little like similarities between the different ones, but nonetheless, um,
and so then they, uh, we work with them of like, whether they're regional, um, or not, but

265
00:23:59,267 --> 00:24:04,830
nonetheless, so from there you'll, so the property owner doesn't pay any money.

266
00:24:04,830 --> 00:24:08,561
So as, uh, you know, an owner of hundred properties, you don't pay anything.

267
00:24:08,561 --> 00:24:10,072
We're providing the amenity.

268
00:24:10,072 --> 00:24:14,863
We put up all the capex and we take care of all the op ex and then we reimburse you for
your energy.

269
00:24:14,863 --> 00:24:17,851
Um, and then once we get to a certain return point.

270
00:24:17,851 --> 00:24:19,372
then we'll start profit sharing with you.

271
00:24:19,372 --> 00:24:31,119
um And then for the installation process, we'll work with most likely the regional
managers ah to coordinate with the property managers to do the site walks, do the

272
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,471
installation and things of that nature, get the site plans, et cetera.

273
00:24:34,471 --> 00:24:39,944
But so we really try to take it as much as we can off of our clients' plates.

274
00:24:39,985 --> 00:24:44,015
But there's also like checks and balances to say like, we're not going to just.

275
00:24:44,015 --> 00:24:49,000
walk the site, decide where the chargers are going to go, and then chargers show up at
your doorstep in six months.

276
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,044
We're at least going to ask to make sure you're cool with making sure we put them there.

277
00:24:53,044 --> 00:24:56,080
So you sign off on that, and then sign off on the legal and things like that.

278
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,149
if there's a hiccup or something, then we'll coordinate.

279
00:24:59,149 --> 00:25:05,615
So we try to take it as hands-off as possible, but still uh check in to make sure we're
all on the same page.

280
00:25:06,303 --> 00:25:06,793
That sounds good.

281
00:25:06,793 --> 00:25:16,066
And I realize every project can have its own kind of unique challenges, but is there an
average or at least kind of a goal as to what you shoot for when it comes to like that

282
00:25:16,066 --> 00:25:25,588
profit share or like one, I guess the actual site execution from like start to finish and
then actually having a users charge at the site.

283
00:25:25,588 --> 00:25:36,477
And then two, like if I, if someone is listening to us, a uh person that has a lot of real
estate properties, like what usually are you kind of shooting for, for the profit sharing?

284
00:25:36,477 --> 00:25:39,440
return as far as a site going alive.

285
00:25:41,099 --> 00:25:42,531
classic answer, but it really depends.

286
00:25:42,531 --> 00:25:45,324
It depends what kind of site site, what the portfolio is.

287
00:25:45,324 --> 00:25:48,848
Um, we really like as many sites under exclusivity as possible.

288
00:25:48,848 --> 00:25:59,218
Um, just because what we've also learned and I consider this like wave two of EV charging
and we get to learn from wave one and wave one, we very much learned that,

289
00:25:59,218 --> 00:26:03,478
the return on investment by salespeople does not work.

290
00:26:03,580 --> 00:26:15,313
We have learned that from every legacy chart like charging company that a large sales
force and one site and how much it takes to knock down to take one or two sites is really,

291
00:26:15,313 --> 00:26:16,463
really hard.

292
00:26:16,603 --> 00:26:22,277
And that's why I actually think condos, any buildings with HOAs.

293
00:26:22,277 --> 00:26:29,079
are going to be actually like the farthest behind as it relates to EV charging uh as far
as where people live in the US.

294
00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:38,682
And that is just purely from the amount of time it takes for one salesperson to go to an
HOA meeting or to like approve a budget to then get the EPC partner to rework it.

295
00:26:38,682 --> 00:26:41,963
There's just not enough margin in the level two space.

296
00:26:41,963 --> 00:26:47,214
And to pretend that there it's anything otherwise, I think is setting people up for
failure.

297
00:26:47,214 --> 00:26:50,685
So I think that really

298
00:26:51,129 --> 00:26:56,317
us all to say working with portfolios can increase the profit share we can offer.

299
00:26:57,681 --> 00:26:59,302
No, that makes a lot of sense.

300
00:26:59,302 --> 00:27:10,908
And I guess that's a good way to think of it too, especially from the side of the condo
and HOA realm, unfortunately, being some of the unintentional laggards, I guess, for at

301
00:27:10,908 --> 00:27:20,273
least getting those sorts of implementations between not only the scale of that kind of
site design, but also just the cost involved for some of the upgrades, especially if it's

302
00:27:20,273 --> 00:27:23,475
an older location and older HOA.

303
00:27:23,475 --> 00:27:27,317
One of the things that you were alluding to that I do think is really interesting, it's
been

304
00:27:27,721 --> 00:27:35,081
something we've talked to with a lot of other guests looking at as you can put a wave one
versus wave two of EV charging.

305
00:27:35,201 --> 00:27:45,341
And I mean, I, I, I can kind of think back to like charging back in like 2011, 2012, maybe
we're even on like wave three or four in some ways, but I'm kind of curious from your

306
00:27:45,341 --> 00:27:53,761
standpoint, especially from the financial modeling and kind of like the investment side of
it, what are some, are there any things you can kind of share as to what are

307
00:27:54,279 --> 00:28:04,704
those lessons learned from kind of like the wave one and previous uh companies in the
charging space and what your team's really using to make sure that you are executing

308
00:28:04,704 --> 00:28:11,163
correctly and kind of doing things differently to essentially make it the best for your
team and investors.

309
00:28:11,417 --> 00:28:19,762
Yeah, the list is really long, but I would say a couple that come to mind that I think are
just not repeated as often.

310
00:28:19,762 --> 00:28:30,007
think one construction partners that understand telecom and understand networking signals
is like actually extremely important.

311
00:28:30,007 --> 00:28:40,983
Like, yes, building a level two charger for the electrical side is as hard as building a
new laundry port, which is like

312
00:28:40,983 --> 00:28:44,754
not that difficult as it relates to an electrician.

313
00:28:44,754 --> 00:28:51,226
um But the telecom and the signal piece is actually much more difficult.

314
00:28:51,226 --> 00:28:56,277
So finding someone that can do both is uh really important in vetting partners.

315
00:28:57,497 --> 00:29:04,920
And also I would say one of the things that we really work on is providing uh projects at
scale to our partners.

316
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,961
The margins on these projects, just as the revenue is tight, like also building them.

317
00:29:10,961 --> 00:29:12,232
is also tight.

318
00:29:12,232 --> 00:29:17,485
So the only way it makes sense for also our construction partners is if we give them bulk
projects.

319
00:29:17,485 --> 00:29:20,177
So we try and be fair in that capacity.

320
00:29:20,177 --> 00:29:29,003
And then I think I already talked about the economics and then that you have to account
for O and more O than you expect.

321
00:29:29,003 --> 00:29:31,015
And then it'll be more than that.

322
00:29:31,015 --> 00:29:40,941
and anyone that says otherwise is also incorrect that I think, but I feel like that's,
that's one that anyone would say, but I think the networking one is interesting.

323
00:29:41,149 --> 00:29:53,165
Yeah, I guess to go a little deeper in that, is that due to networking needs for payment
processing, for the communication between the cart, or what exactly, is it just all of it

324
00:29:53,165 --> 00:29:56,337
that it kind of needs for the charge to be effective?

325
00:29:56,625 --> 00:29:58,585
For the key to the charger online.

326
00:29:58,585 --> 00:30:09,565
like if you are working off a stem in your charger, if it's say, if it's not a universal
SIM, so it doesn't flip between different service providers, then if Verizon stays down,

327
00:30:09,565 --> 00:30:11,465
then like the chargers down.

328
00:30:11,525 --> 00:30:18,085
Um, and so one you meet using universal SIMs, but then we had a site that was next to an
airport.

329
00:30:18,085 --> 00:30:20,445
And so one charger is facing this way.

330
00:30:20,445 --> 00:30:22,125
One charger is facing that way.

331
00:30:22,125 --> 00:30:23,845
One charger could not stay online.

332
00:30:23,845 --> 00:30:25,465
And the other one was just fine.

333
00:30:26,097 --> 00:30:28,778
from disruption from the airport.

334
00:30:28,958 --> 00:30:36,860
So then if you're connecting to like a router or something, then it really like where you
put the router, where and all the networking equipment.

335
00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:45,183
So um networking and the software piece is really the piece that we're seeing in addition
to economics of charging sites.

336
00:30:45,183 --> 00:30:51,425
call it definitely the second most important thing is definitely the networking piece to
make sure they stay online.

337
00:30:52,381 --> 00:31:01,682
And then kind of looking at the O about it, what has really stood out to you with kind of
this wave or areas that at least you've been able, your team's been able to optimize with

338
00:31:01,682 --> 00:31:02,304
them.

339
00:31:03,277 --> 00:31:11,884
Um, you'll have to have a software provider that can remote reset them without having to
do breaker flips that have diagnostics in the different parts of the charger that can

340
00:31:11,884 --> 00:31:16,828
report on them in a very reliable way that you can see it in a UI and a dashboard that
makes sense.

341
00:31:16,828 --> 00:31:20,692
Um, to cut down on truck rolls is the goal.

342
00:31:20,692 --> 00:31:31,140
And that is because you make about $2,000 in profit off a charger when it's about 20 to 25
% utilization, um, at a 20 cent margin, which is what we model.

343
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:32,241
Um,

344
00:31:32,241 --> 00:31:42,601
So if you're making $2,000 in a year and it costs me $300 to roll a truck to go fix
something, that payback period starts getting pushed out until like year seven or eight.

345
00:31:42,601 --> 00:31:45,761
So it's again, not us being unfair.

346
00:31:45,761 --> 00:31:53,641
It's just trying to really use the software capabilities to be able to reset things
remotely really does make a meaningful impact of making sure these charges are up and also

347
00:31:53,641 --> 00:31:55,661
reliably maintained.

348
00:31:56,317 --> 00:32:07,887
Yeah, and with that is that what is kind of like the average because we've definitely
heard from people on the podcast and obviously once you have the actual Copper in the

349
00:32:07,887 --> 00:32:16,274
ground a lot of these other things you can replace the chart you can do some of this
maintenance but um Some people say like the main charger can last anywhere from five to

350
00:32:16,274 --> 00:32:19,196
fifteen years I mean, I'm kind of curious like with your models.

351
00:32:19,196 --> 00:32:19,867
What do you assume?

352
00:32:19,867 --> 00:32:25,509
Do you assume like okay, you're gonna make the the idea is like two thousand per charger
and this is

353
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:31,077
over a 10 year period or what is kind of usually the timeline that your team shooting for?

354
00:32:31,697 --> 00:32:35,897
Um, yeah, we do 12 year contracts normally, but some are 10.

355
00:32:35,997 --> 00:32:39,437
Um, but yeah, the depreciation of the actual charger.

356
00:32:39,437 --> 00:32:47,637
So if you put a, if you put a chart, a level two charger in the ground, um, 80 % of the
cost is from labor and pulling conduit in.

357
00:32:47,637 --> 00:32:52,857
So the actual charger is not the piece that's expensive.

358
00:32:53,077 --> 00:32:59,113
Um, so that's also what really affects depreciation value and also really affects, um,

359
00:32:59,301 --> 00:33:00,962
basically the floor of the investment.

360
00:33:00,962 --> 00:33:09,671
basically saying that, the project needs to be ripped out, the only thing you can really
take is the charger and the charger is worth, is only 20 % of the project.

361
00:33:09,671 --> 00:33:13,294
So that's another reason it's just an investing class that is really difficult.

362
00:33:13,294 --> 00:33:25,145
um But so it depends if you look at our tax depreciation or our life of the asset or our O
and then we run a couple of different scenarios and that's really just out of, you know,

363
00:33:25,145 --> 00:33:25,711
we.

364
00:33:25,711 --> 00:33:26,414
We really care.

365
00:33:26,414 --> 00:33:30,057
So somewhere between five to eight years is what we normally.

366
00:33:30,761 --> 00:33:31,681
Gotcha.

367
00:33:32,021 --> 00:33:41,701
And then kind of looking at that, are there different models or like when you talk about
these kind of different lifespans, is it usually just dependent on the site or will there

368
00:33:41,701 --> 00:33:48,101
if you're assuming it's a hospital, I guess to go back to that example, you're expecting
that to either have a shorter or a longer.

369
00:33:48,321 --> 00:33:58,541
I guess what I'm trying to ask is I'm curious if there's any industries you see an impact
on what might have a shorter or longer life cycle or is it purely just dependent on the

370
00:33:58,541 --> 00:33:59,221
site?

371
00:33:59,633 --> 00:34:05,118
um So we use one word nerds and we're data nerds and also financial nerds.

372
00:34:05,118 --> 00:34:13,105
So we, we run a million different scenarios and that's really just because there is a
reason that there is not a huge three V competitor.

373
00:34:13,105 --> 00:34:15,226
And that was because of the risky business.

374
00:34:15,347 --> 00:34:20,271
And so to do that, that is modeling on top of modeling and re forecasting off of re
forecasting.

375
00:34:20,271 --> 00:34:27,409
um And that, so I would say from asset classes for our multifamily, that model is like
very baked.

376
00:34:27,409 --> 00:34:37,949
So we are launching as a service model, which is basically saying that we are not taking
utilization risk, but you want chargers at your property and you don't want to put up the

377
00:34:37,949 --> 00:34:44,989
catbacks to be able to build them, then we will build them and then you just pay us a
monthly fee for it's like an infrastructure as a service product.

378
00:34:45,189 --> 00:34:49,709
There's a number of them out in the market right now, but we really just want to be a
financing partner.

379
00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:57,289
For those, we do model a more conservative maintenance and that's just because the risk is
a little bit different.

380
00:34:57,391 --> 00:35:08,296
But so we use the same underwriting assumptions and then also jack up, you know, all of to
make it the most conservative model lover and then also get a little bit crazy and make it

381
00:35:08,296 --> 00:35:10,328
and make it, you know, like, what if this happened?

382
00:35:10,328 --> 00:35:12,231
Then we also like to look at the upside.

383
00:35:12,231 --> 00:35:15,845
But yeah, we run a lot of scenarios.

384
00:35:16,585 --> 00:35:18,245
Well, and that's kind of interesting.

385
00:35:18,245 --> 00:35:26,468
And that's obviously great to hear for what we've seen in the industry and looking at the
infrastructure as a service.

386
00:35:26,468 --> 00:35:32,500
When you present what 3V does, what are, guess maybe I'm trying to think of like, what
would be other popular ones?

387
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:33,870
I mean, you talk about telecom.

388
00:35:33,870 --> 00:35:42,722
I could see that being kind of one or maybe, actually it's pretty different, but I'm even
thinking like commercial solar installations, obviously different market and different

389
00:35:42,722 --> 00:35:43,333
buyer.

390
00:35:43,333 --> 00:35:45,253
But I'm kind of curious of what...

391
00:35:45,285 --> 00:35:55,801
attracted and what made, um, try, especially with the focus on level two charter, what
really make that stand out to you and kind of was one of the reasons to focus on that as

392
00:35:55,801 --> 00:35:59,003
the service, uh, versus others, count the space.

393
00:35:59,003 --> 00:36:04,606
Like you're saying, you're kind of the only, there aren't many competitors in it and
there's obviously a need for what your team does.

394
00:36:04,606 --> 00:36:09,919
I'm just kind of curious how you got to that or what was, was there ever kind of a light
bulb moment?

395
00:36:09,919 --> 00:36:13,809
It's like, okay, this is how we need to apply these resources and this kind of

396
00:36:13,809 --> 00:36:19,489
either business or financial model to really help with not only just EV charging, but
actually have a solid business case for it.

397
00:36:20,217 --> 00:36:21,018
Yeah.

398
00:36:21,018 --> 00:36:27,403
Well, I was working in a different company before 3V and was working on level two charging
uh and multifamily.

399
00:36:27,403 --> 00:36:34,928
And that's also where I worked with my co-founder Bin was working at Loop Charging
Software.

400
00:36:34,949 --> 00:36:43,415
And he did call me one day and he was like, what if you could build a business anywhere
and like in this realm, like what would it be?

401
00:36:43,415 --> 00:36:46,007
And I was like, it's exactly this, but with more capital.

402
00:36:46,117 --> 00:36:47,468
And he was like, all right.

403
00:36:47,468 --> 00:36:51,442
And then a couple of months later I called him and I was like, do you want to go raise
capital and do that?

404
00:36:51,442 --> 00:36:53,013
um And yeah.

405
00:36:53,013 --> 00:36:55,335
And he was like, call you back in 24 hours and I'll let you know.

406
00:36:55,335 --> 00:36:58,367
And he called me three hours later and was like, yeah, let's do it.

407
00:36:58,857 --> 00:37:02,110
and then we found our investors Greenbacker Capital.

408
00:37:02,511 --> 00:37:04,923
They had been looking at the level two space for a long time.

409
00:37:04,923 --> 00:37:10,598
So also when we took our assumptions and aligned it with their assumptions, they're very,
very similar.

410
00:37:10,598 --> 00:37:14,161
So it did allow us to close within two months of meeting them.

411
00:37:14,161 --> 00:37:18,721
um And we were also the earliest investment they've ever made.

412
00:37:18,721 --> 00:37:26,393
So it was really just trying to come up with a name and everything that goes with uh
building the company.

413
00:37:26,921 --> 00:37:28,061
No, that's great.

414
00:37:28,061 --> 00:37:35,181
guess, obviously, we've been really focused on the financial and kind of the creation of
the business, but kind of like looking forward.

415
00:37:35,181 --> 00:37:37,741
Obviously, you're scaling and you're kind of taking more of these sites.

416
00:37:37,741 --> 00:37:47,621
But where do you see kind of 3V going and kind of like any opportunities for those that
are listening to this that might be thinking about how to either reach out to you to work

417
00:37:47,621 --> 00:37:50,121
or suggest it to others in the space?

418
00:37:50,543 --> 00:37:50,973
Yeah.

419
00:37:50,973 --> 00:37:57,453
Um, we plan on owning thousands of sites of, of level two chargers nationwide.

420
00:37:57,453 --> 00:38:03,328
Uh, I would say it's like, so we're a year old, about last week.

421
00:38:03,328 --> 00:38:11,862
So we, and as construction cycles go, I like wish I could sit here and be like, we now
have a thousand chargers live, but that's not how construction cycles go.

422
00:38:11,862 --> 00:38:13,072
But we do have about.

423
00:38:13,072 --> 00:38:14,043
Yeah.

424
00:38:14,763 --> 00:38:17,864
We have about 200 sites in flight right now.

425
00:38:17,864 --> 00:38:19,505
and then we'll be adding another.

426
00:38:19,505 --> 00:38:22,227
like 250 here in the next two months.

427
00:38:22,227 --> 00:38:26,871
we'll have, hopefully this time next year, I can talk to you and tell you about all the
charges we have live.

428
00:38:26,871 --> 00:38:29,133
so it just takes time to build them.

429
00:38:29,133 --> 00:38:34,005
So right now once, and then once we have that, I think it really goes into also
acquisition phases.

430
00:38:34,005 --> 00:38:45,536
Uh, I think that the market will be ripe with, uh, with projects that have, you know,
infrastructure that's been built out, but needs to be, um, you know, refinanced and, know,

431
00:38:45,536 --> 00:38:48,429
with cash put into it and make them, make them well oiled.

432
00:38:48,429 --> 00:38:49,199
So.

433
00:38:49,297 --> 00:38:54,327
It's really to build chargers and luckily but unluckily, the gap is very, large.

434
00:38:54,327 --> 00:38:58,013
So um we have lot of work to do.

435
00:38:58,247 --> 00:39:03,759
Yeah, actually that's kind interesting what you mean about the acquisition for like
existing sites.

436
00:39:03,759 --> 00:39:09,220
Can you kind of walk through, I think that's really great framing kind of context for
being a year old.

437
00:39:09,220 --> 00:39:19,383
And obviously I think a lot of people listening understand that as much as we'd like it to
change the reality of most of these EV construction projects, it has a pretty long time

438
00:39:19,383 --> 00:39:20,924
construction cycle.

439
00:39:20,984 --> 00:39:24,871
But looking forward, what, uh

440
00:39:24,871 --> 00:39:34,062
Maybe it is a little early, what are you kind of looking for as like these new sites to
kind of go in and maybe either not necessarily new sites, but existing sites and find

441
00:39:34,062 --> 00:39:38,737
those opportunities to probably help with that or kind of grow those opportunities.

442
00:39:39,053 --> 00:39:41,794
even to make the broken charges work.

443
00:39:41,794 --> 00:39:50,048
a lot of our clients have, you know, portfolios of, you know, say 100 properties, they
probably have 15 sites that have charges at them, whether they know it or not.

444
00:39:50,048 --> 00:39:56,941
They will they normally probably have like 15 charge like sites that they know about and
then five more that they didn't know about that will like see on site walks.

445
00:39:56,941 --> 00:40:01,623
But they're really just trying to get out of it.

446
00:40:01,623 --> 00:40:06,629
Like they these property managers or property owners are very tired of hearing.

447
00:40:06,629 --> 00:40:10,452
complaints and then not be able to get customer service or anything to service them.

448
00:40:10,452 --> 00:40:20,941
So I think that, you know, we'll continue to see that in the market and be able to truly,
hopefully, hopefully like create more reliability of any stranded assets out there.

449
00:40:21,161 --> 00:40:27,721
Well, and that sounds kind of like what we're talking about of like the wave one
experience and lessons learned going to this wave two.

450
00:40:27,721 --> 00:40:37,321
Are you seeing with most of those, especially when they find out these extra ones that are
already live, but they may not know about, are they usually with multiple different

451
00:40:37,321 --> 00:40:39,301
vendors and providers?

452
00:40:39,921 --> 00:40:49,321
Cause it seems like that's what I've kind of anecdotally seen is especially with some of
these larger, whether it be even hotel groups or others that have multiple locations,

453
00:40:49,381 --> 00:40:50,439
they're now kind of

454
00:40:50,439 --> 00:40:54,881
realizing this isn't like an HVAC unit or something that you install at once.

455
00:40:54,881 --> 00:40:58,893
And then you have maybe a local guy come work on in 15 years at that scale.

456
00:40:58,893 --> 00:41:10,087
do start needing to have like a pretty strong one source of truth or one point to kind of
make sure that these sites work moving forward together instead of when they did this,

457
00:41:10,087 --> 00:41:12,338
like, we don't know if UVs are even going to be that big of a thing.

458
00:41:12,338 --> 00:41:19,581
So it might be, might've been, um, subbed out to quite a few different companies and there
isn't really a cohesive strategy or at least

459
00:41:19,581 --> 00:41:21,704
not a cohesive strategy at the time when these were put in.

460
00:41:21,704 --> 00:41:25,329
Is that kind of what you're seeing as well with a lot of these customers?

461
00:41:25,745 --> 00:41:27,845
Yeah, we're seeing a couple of things I would say.

462
00:41:27,845 --> 00:41:36,485
is also these brands have like signed agreements with software providers.

463
00:41:36,485 --> 00:41:41,245
Most of these brands don't own the buildings that they operate their franchises in.

464
00:41:41,245 --> 00:41:47,025
So therefore they do not have the ability to build charters at those locations.

465
00:41:47,165 --> 00:41:48,845
I'll use hotels as an example.

466
00:41:48,845 --> 00:41:52,945
Hotels are largely owned by like

467
00:41:52,945 --> 00:41:58,705
one person that owns maybe three or four buildings, that is a very, very also hard sales
cycle.

468
00:41:58,705 --> 00:42:08,225
So going back to the CAC and like being able to do acquisition of those sites, it's just
gonna be an uphill battle to solve, which is why we really wanna pair our as a service

469
00:42:08,225 --> 00:42:14,325
offering with any software that we, is one of our preferred vendors to basically say like,
we will finance it.

470
00:42:14,325 --> 00:42:19,953
We just need you guys to go sell it because you guys already have a sales team and we,

471
00:42:19,953 --> 00:42:23,433
we do enterprise sales for other types of properties.

472
00:42:23,433 --> 00:42:26,173
So I think that will be a really interesting opportunity.

473
00:42:26,173 --> 00:42:33,113
And then, yeah, I feel like they're just, the market used to also tell property owners
that this was a huge money driver.

474
00:42:33,113 --> 00:42:36,453
If you did this, then you would make, you know, buckets of money.

475
00:42:36,453 --> 00:42:37,713
That is not true.

476
00:42:37,713 --> 00:42:39,033
It is a headache.

477
00:42:39,033 --> 00:42:43,373
is only interesting at thousands of properties.

478
00:42:43,433 --> 00:42:49,317
Even if you own 300 properties, like having a full-time head count, that's what you would
need as well to like,

479
00:42:49,317 --> 00:42:54,141
deploy at 300 sites um that you don't get your ROI or you break even.

480
00:42:54,141 --> 00:43:05,631
um So it's really trying to, so we've also been meeting with new clients or even old
clients that became, that are becoming new clients that are like, yeah, like this actually

481
00:43:05,631 --> 00:43:07,593
doesn't make any sense for us to continue to do.

482
00:43:07,593 --> 00:43:12,157
We should outsource this and move on with our lives basically.

483
00:43:13,289 --> 00:43:15,709
So, you know, that's, that's really interesting thing.

484
00:43:15,709 --> 00:43:23,729
You kind of bring up the kind of the conversation of maybe obviously salespeople came
through and we're kind of promising this is what the outcome is, or this is what you're

485
00:43:23,729 --> 00:43:24,929
going actually see.

486
00:43:24,929 --> 00:43:35,889
And now as we've gone into this wave to reality has kind of set in, there's a need,
there's an interest, but what was the position originally is just not following through.

487
00:43:36,729 --> 00:43:41,971
We talk about this a lot on this podcast, kind of like around fast charting and level
three and

488
00:43:41,971 --> 00:43:53,736
You're seeing that obviously with more of the traditional, even gas companies and the
loves and the travel centers of America coming in.

489
00:43:53,736 --> 00:43:56,638
They already have what makes the money, which is not gas.

490
00:43:56,638 --> 00:43:59,109
It's all these other amenities that they sell.

491
00:43:59,269 --> 00:44:02,731
Is that similar to what you see in the level two space?

492
00:44:02,731 --> 00:44:08,173
what is the business model um from a

493
00:44:08,681 --> 00:44:16,346
kind of a secondary value or I guess if that's making sense, cause obviously there's,
there's kind of a need with a DC faster and you go in there, you get your stuff, you use

494
00:44:16,346 --> 00:44:20,570
the bathroom, maybe you buy a bottle of water and you go in or you go somewhere else.

495
00:44:20,570 --> 00:44:29,526
And obviously, especially with DC fast churning, there isn't going to be as much, uh, or
at least not, um, at the same place, kind of that repeat business.

496
00:44:29,526 --> 00:44:31,417
Cause people are usually traveling.

497
00:44:31,417 --> 00:44:36,935
It's not like they're going to use it unless, I mean, there's some cases where people
can't charge at home, but

498
00:44:36,935 --> 00:44:42,449
I think, especially when we're talking about level two and just like looking forward, it's
probably going to move more and more towards level two.

499
00:44:42,629 --> 00:44:52,457
there any like strong, um, situations where you can get those kinds of quick secondary
sales benefits or is it best to kind of look at it as well?

500
00:44:52,457 --> 00:45:00,603
We've kind of talked about a little bit or alluded to, which is this is somewhere somebody
works and this is kind of like a benefit of either working there or having an apartment.

501
00:45:00,603 --> 00:45:01,624
You can charge your EV there.

502
00:45:01,624 --> 00:45:03,365
What, are you kind of seeing with

503
00:45:03,931 --> 00:45:08,087
any of those models that actually work or has a strong benefit for it.

504
00:45:08,433 --> 00:45:09,413
Yeah.

505
00:45:09,413 --> 00:45:17,913
Um, I would say it's so from an apartment building perspective, uh, it would be like,
would you ever move to an apartment building that doesn't have wifi?

506
00:45:18,093 --> 00:45:18,993
Like today?

507
00:45:18,993 --> 00:45:19,813
No.

508
00:45:19,813 --> 00:45:22,893
15 years ago, like wouldn't even think about it.

509
00:45:22,893 --> 00:45:26,893
Um, or however many years ago, mean, 25, whatever it is.

510
00:45:27,033 --> 00:45:31,153
Um, then it's just, it's becoming an amenity that people expect.

511
00:45:31,273 --> 00:45:31,993
Like what?

512
00:45:31,993 --> 00:45:37,801
32 % of renters, uh, are looking for it as of the last like gray star.

513
00:45:37,937 --> 00:45:43,477
survey because even if people don't have an EV today, they're still asking about it
because they're considering it in the future.

514
00:45:44,077 --> 00:45:55,157
So it's really building out that amenity to make sure that you can keep captured client
customers and then also retain them, especially and beat out the competition as it relates

515
00:45:55,157 --> 00:46:01,277
to retention because it's about $10,000 if you have a turnover in a resident.

516
00:46:01,277 --> 00:46:07,977
So really trying to cut down on those costs because vacancy is something that multifamily
cares a lot about.

517
00:46:07,985 --> 00:46:15,900
Um, and then as far as additional revenue streams, we are, we, we're, we've looked at a
couple different things.

518
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:26,086
would say, what one that I don't think works well, but we spent a lot of time on,
especially at my last, at my last job was ad ad revenue.

519
00:46:26,086 --> 00:46:34,231
So there was a belief and granted, I'm sure at pencils in some places, but doing a large
scale.

520
00:46:34,377 --> 00:46:36,378
investment to it is really difficult.

521
00:46:36,378 --> 00:46:38,350
um And that's for a number of reasons.

522
00:46:38,350 --> 00:46:45,337
One, permitting a large screen on a charger is actually like, if it's too close to a road,
you can't get a permit.

523
00:46:45,337 --> 00:46:48,099
and then that also, but that also is where you get the most eyes.

524
00:46:48,099 --> 00:46:50,271
So then you get the most ad dollars.

525
00:46:50,271 --> 00:46:55,155
So it's almost, it's very, very hard to build those projects in the first place.

526
00:46:55,155 --> 00:47:02,301
And then two, the additional cost of the screen and the insurance and the extra O for if
anyone ever breaks that screen.

527
00:47:02,479 --> 00:47:06,752
actually is very hard to pencil with the ad rev dollars that come in from that screen.

528
00:47:07,133 --> 00:47:09,322
So that model, it's also really hard.

529
00:47:09,322 --> 00:47:20,144
And then also convincing infrastructure investors that MarTech, so marketing technology is
interesting, is something that they deal with PPAs.

530
00:47:20,144 --> 00:47:24,518
They don't deal um with advertising.

531
00:47:24,518 --> 00:47:26,679
So that was also really interesting.

532
00:47:27,505 --> 00:47:35,506
Well, and that I've always found that style of advertising to be really interesting
because like when you look at a marketing technology, traditionally there's, or at least

533
00:47:35,506 --> 00:47:40,189
when you get to like the mobile or someone, there's, there's ways you can kind of connect
the dots.

534
00:47:40,189 --> 00:47:44,390
And then this really is kind of more on the ad tech side where I don't know.

535
00:47:44,390 --> 00:47:54,073
I, I it's, you might actually be the first person that's brought that up on our show, but
it's something I've always kind of anecdotally struggled to understand the business model

536
00:47:54,073 --> 00:47:55,663
with as to what that.

537
00:47:56,361 --> 00:47:58,201
It seems it's like one of those.

538
00:47:58,201 --> 00:48:00,401
Yeah, it's interesting.

539
00:48:01,061 --> 00:48:01,718
Right?

540
00:48:01,718 --> 00:48:04,519
It does not pencil very well, especially at scale.

541
00:48:04,519 --> 00:48:09,331
And then I do think it goes back to like sustainable infrastructure is at an inflection
point.

542
00:48:09,331 --> 00:48:11,751
You can't talk about infrastructure without talking about technology.

543
00:48:11,751 --> 00:48:15,982
Technology risk is something infrastructure investors have never had to handle.

544
00:48:15,982 --> 00:48:25,437
And then if you add in any other industry that they also haven't touched, like
infrastructure investors are the most risk adverse group of people.

545
00:48:25,437 --> 00:48:25,860
Yeah.

546
00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:28,777
if you add in, know, add tech in there, it's like.

547
00:48:28,777 --> 00:48:35,817
it gets it gets into so many of the things that there's already struggles around like what
we were talking about earlier around making sure there's even a cellular or strong

548
00:48:35,817 --> 00:48:36,877
internet connection.

549
00:48:36,877 --> 00:48:44,977
So if you're trying to switch out what ad you're running on this screen and you don't have
that in a reliable way, you can't quite know if even the chargers down or all these other

550
00:48:44,977 --> 00:48:48,757
just kind of variables that start kicking in with it.

551
00:48:48,777 --> 00:48:49,717
No.

552
00:48:50,457 --> 00:48:50,911
Yeah.

553
00:48:50,911 --> 00:48:52,692
I haven't looked at it in like a year or something.

554
00:48:52,692 --> 00:48:56,485
They still make like, they still made like $3 million last year on ad revenue.

555
00:48:56,485 --> 00:48:58,752
like, it's not a it's not a not model.

556
00:48:58,752 --> 00:49:00,287
It's just like a very hard model.

557
00:49:00,487 --> 00:49:04,081
Yeah, but weren't they also acquired by BP?

558
00:49:05,043 --> 00:49:10,430
So I mean, for BP, that kind of amount of revenue is like a rounding error of a rounding
error.

559
00:49:10,430 --> 00:49:12,172
I mean, there's it is.

560
00:49:12,636 --> 00:49:14,959
why should they still operate as their own like PNL?

561
00:49:14,959 --> 00:49:15,490
I don't know.

562
00:49:15,490 --> 00:49:16,521
Anyways,

563
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:20,051
That could be its own podcast talking about the financial model for that.

564
00:49:20,051 --> 00:49:22,713
But no, I really appreciate that Aubrey.

565
00:49:22,713 --> 00:49:23,873
That's really interesting.

566
00:49:23,873 --> 00:49:25,584
And it's been really fun to talk with you about this stuff.

567
00:49:25,584 --> 00:49:35,048
I realize we're kind of coming up on the Navarra a lot of time, but for people who are
interested in kind of learning more, can you share with us what's the best way to get a

568
00:49:35,048 --> 00:49:42,851
hold of you and also just kind of 3V infrastructure to ask more questions and kind of
learn about what your team's working on uh moving forward.

569
00:49:43,237 --> 00:49:44,247
Yeah, definitely.

570
00:49:44,247 --> 00:49:46,438
3binfrastructure.com.

571
00:49:46,438 --> 00:49:47,918
The three is a backwards E.

572
00:49:47,918 --> 00:49:49,499
So that's how we count the name.

573
00:49:49,499 --> 00:49:51,119
Some people don't see that, but nonetheless.

574
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:53,440
um And LinkedIn, we're very active on.

575
00:49:53,700 --> 00:50:01,542
But yeah, and so I would say to any listener that lives in a multifamily building or has
friends that live in a multifamily building, I would say the number one way that we get

576
00:50:01,542 --> 00:50:10,665
property owners to pay attention to let us build charges of their property is through
residents or future residents asking for that amenity.

577
00:50:10,731 --> 00:50:15,404
And it really does drive the market and really does get them to move faster.

578
00:50:15,404 --> 00:50:21,528
The number one thing that keeps us from building these things is just how quickly the
legal reviews can move.

579
00:50:21,528 --> 00:50:25,620
um And that is controllable by how much they're prioritizing it.

580
00:50:25,620 --> 00:50:30,263
So that would be the biggest ask for any listener.

581
00:50:30,791 --> 00:50:31,021
Great.

582
00:50:31,021 --> 00:50:32,574
Thank you so much for coming on today, Aubrey.

583
00:50:32,574 --> 00:50:34,054
We'll have to have you on again soon.

584
00:50:34,054 --> 00:50:34,594
Thanks, Chase.

585
00:50:39,718 --> 00:50:41,499
Thank you for joining us today on Grid Connections

586
00:50:41,499 --> 00:50:52,025
And a huge thank you to our guest, Aubrey Gunnell, CEO of 3V Infrastructure for sharing
her invaluable expertise on building scalable data-driven EV infrastructure.

587
00:50:52,025 --> 00:50:57,868
If you found today's episode insightful, please help us expand our community by sharing
with someone who would find it valuable too.

588
00:50:57,868 --> 00:50:59,819
Also, don't forget to leave us a pause review.

589
00:50:59,819 --> 00:51:04,111
It truly makes a difference in spreading the message about sustainable energy solutions.

590
00:51:04,192 --> 00:51:10,031
And stay informed by subscribing to our newsletter via the link in the show notes for
exclusive content, industry insights,

591
00:51:10,031 --> 00:51:12,293
and future episode announcements.

592
00:51:12,293 --> 00:51:20,219
As always, this episode was brought to you by Grid Connections Consulting, your trusted
guide in navigating the evolving landscape of electric vehicles, charging infrastructure,

593
00:51:20,219 --> 00:51:22,421
and clean energy innovation.

594
00:51:22,421 --> 00:51:25,603
Till next week, this is the Grid Connections Podcast signing off.