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This file was generated by Descript 

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Sam: Hello and welcome to The 10,
000 Things, my name is Sam Ellis.

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Joe: I'm Joe Loh.

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Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Joe: Today on the show, FOMO and jomo.

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Uh, I was recently introduced
to the concept of jomo, which

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is Joy of Missing Out fomo.

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Most people are familiar
with fear of missing out.

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Mm.

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yeah, I've had a lot of experience
with both in the last, particularly

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the last eight years, since
giving up drugs and alcohol.

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Mm.

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but I, it's a pretty broad topic.

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Um, and I wanted to get
you guys to jump in.

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Jomo, made sense to me instantly and I was
like, Oh, I haven't lent into this enough.

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But like my experience, like say when
the seasons come and go and it's like

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music festival season and big bands come
to Melbourne and all the things that

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go on in summer, like we've just had.

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Sam: Well, you saw the
biggest band of all time.

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So twice.

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So don't.

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Joe: Oh, Taylor Swift.

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But I, I experienced a lot of
Jomo of like, oh, thank God.

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I'm not at that music festival.

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Sam: Imagine if I gave two
shits about any of that.

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Just imagine.

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Joe: No, but I always did.

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I always had a lot of FOMO that
I had to be at the cool thing.

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Oh, no, no.

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I used to care a lot.

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Ali: Yeah.

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That was such a huge theme of my
Like late teens, early twenties,

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like whether it was missing out on
experiences, like, you know, sexual

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experiences, romantic experiences,
then there was also, yeah, the, for a

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variety of reasons, not being able to
travel when everyone was traveling.

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That was a huge one for me.

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Like, yeah, being able
to go out and do stuff.

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And then when I had, cause I had
my son quite young, then there

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was a bit of FOMO with that.

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Like, you know, in my early
twenties, I was taking care

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of, you know, a little baby.

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Sam: And so not being a
nuclear family and yeah.

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Ali: Yeah.

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So there was all sorts of.

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Yeah, like a lot of FOMO and, and it was
sort of coincided too with like, Facebook

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and MySpace and all that and social media
and people you were so aware now of all

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these people in your extended circle doing
all these things, which we historically

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never really had unless you ran into them
and you're out, you didn't know that they

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were the girl you went to school with was
on a European extravaganza and all of a

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sudden you see all these photos and I saw.

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Okay.

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I had, there was quite a lot of that
fear of missing out, but I would say

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very much since the pandemic, I have
really lent into the joy of missing out.

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And I think, yeah, also coinciding with
my little mentee bee and all that a few

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years ago, like actually recognizing
that there are so many things that I take

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pleasure in that don't involve actually
going out and doing stuff and just

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enjoying those moments and simultaneously,
yeah, not wanting to be a part of things

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that I've historically seen and thought,
Oh God, I'm missing out because over

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the years I have had the opportunity
then to do this or that and then, you

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know, it's really actually not for me.

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Sam: It's not like you've never done it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And you have done some travel and.

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Ali: Yeah.

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Sam: But like.

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And had

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Ali: those romantic experiences
and things that I thought I'd.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I.

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I don't feel like I'm missing out.

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I mean, yeah, if I had more
money, I'd want to travel, but

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I think that's everybody, right?

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Sam: earlier I was trying to think of
an example that wasn't music festivals,

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cause that is like the, that was a
huge, that is like the classic, in

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psychoanalysis, in LACAN or something,
you'd call it like object A or whatever,

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like music festivals are like, well,
in old fashioned Freud, it's like a

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fetish, you know, it's like when you
ask someone what's something you've

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been afraid of missing out on, they're
probably going to name music festivals.

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It's almost cultural
programming at this point.

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Yeah.

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Like.

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If you're a certain age, that's the
pinnacle of human experience right there.

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Ali: Yeah, and you know what I realized?

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I don't really like music festivals.

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I don't want to stand all day.

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I want a seat.

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I want to, I don't want to be in the sun.

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Like there's a whole bunch of stuff.

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Sam: They always got up my ass.

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Ali: Yeah, like they,
you know, and then gross.

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Sam: Even as a youngster.

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Ali: What's it called?

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The toilets, like the portaloos.

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Revolting!

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Like, there's so many things about
a music festival that I'm like, ugh.

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Sam: I kind of like the
disgusting toilet experience.

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It was one of the few things about
festivals that actually felt real to me.

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You're an idiot.

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Ali: So, like, I've
recently bought a ticket.

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To see what is a music
festival for old people.

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But like, I haven't been to a
festival in many, many, many years.

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And, but yeah, part of me is just
because I weren't doing any sideshows

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and I really wanted to see Blondie.

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So that's why I bought the
ticket for the festival.

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But if it was,

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Joe: Yeah, she won't be past her prime.

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Ali: But just,

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Sam: but just, but just doing,
but just doing the sideshow is.

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Actually, it's only the true fans there.

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Ali: Yeah, and like, and I get a seat,
which is like a huge thing for me.

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Joe: But if you want to talk about
social media, you won't get a more

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FOMO y experience than like, Here's me
in my amazing outfit with all my best

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friends, and we're a special group.

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special group of people that all go
to this festival together every year.

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And we took so many drugs and we
understood the nature of reality

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and consciousness and the universe.

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And we all became one
and you weren't there.

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Like that's

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every Instagram photo
from a music festival.

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Sam: I wasn't feeling it, but
then towards the end of that, I'm

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like, okay, I am feeling it now.

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You're right.

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Joe: So my journey with
music festivals was.

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From peak experiences on acid at bushdoofs
in my early 20s, or, you know, at, maybe

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at the big day out watching the Chemical
Brothers or whatever, on MDMA or whatever,

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like there was all those peak experiences.

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By the end it was like, on the road, on
the way to Meredith, dropping Valium,

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drinking so much, and like, drunk by the
time I got to Meredith, and sedated, and

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then like, oh, take some speed, and then
like, Fucking eating a burger before

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midnight and going to bed and really
getting this reputation as the guy who

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went to bed early at the music festival.

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Why?

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Because I was an alcoholic and
I was, I was taking drugs, but

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I was drinking so much that it
was just counteracting the drugs.

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So once substance use for fun and
peak experiences turned into substance

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use for just getting through life
or dependence, then music festivals

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just became something that became
between me and my drinking, really.

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Totally.

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Sam: Cueing up for a can,
it's just, it's a bummer.

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Oh yeah, yeah.

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Joe: Like, you know, you can smoke a big
joint and watch Midlake play Roscoe and it

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was, that was a bit of a peak experience,
but they became fewer and far between,

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you know, and, and then getting sober,
it's like, the last place I want to be is

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the Meredith Supernatural Amphitheatre.

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As a sober, clean and sober person.

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You

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Sam: don't see me at the concert, baby.

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Those bright lights hurt my eyes.

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Cigarettes and alcohol get up my ass.

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I always lose you in the crowd.

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Joe: All right.

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I wasn't there.

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Sam: Come on.

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It was the second, the second album.

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Ali: Yeah.

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But like now is like a 40 year old woman.

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The idea of listening to my
favorite artist on the couch.

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I'd rather dance.

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Sam: In ugly pants in the comfort
of a lounge room in suburbia.

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Ali: Yeah, with the cat on my lap.

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Sam: Mm hmm.

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Ali: Quan

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Sam: had already worked it
out when you wrote that lyric.

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Ali: Yeah, like whether I, yeah, have a
cocktail or I just have a cup of tea or

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whatever it is, I'm at home, I'm comfy.

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Peak experience right there.

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I, there's so much joy to be had in that.

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I Yeah, that's right.

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Joe: That's Jomo

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Ali: that was me yesterday I
had a whole day and evening

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of jomo and it was fantastic

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Sam: I agree that is jomo but Joe I'm
gonna flip the script on you and blow

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your mind man, if Ali went that is
jomo right there, but i'm gonna flip

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the script and blow your mind man.

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If Ali went out, she'd have missed
out on what happened at home.

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It's all about how you look at it, man.

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So

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Joe: this is going to be an
episode where we explain how

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awesome it is that we're boring.

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Is that right?

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Sam: No, it's about finding
where the real entertainment is.

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That's the answer.

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You know, my wife helped me with this a
lot because she has spent a lot of time

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at music festivals and, by and large,
Because she works in the industry.

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Yes, and it's not fun anymore.

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Yeah.

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It's just work.

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Yeah.

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It is just another industry.

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And you start to recognize that
experiences are being manufactured.

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It's a product, et cetera.

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And that's actually not a scandal.

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That's just business.

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It's how it's done.

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And after a while, first the
illusion falls away and then.

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You know, there might be a little
bit of a sense of disappointment

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or, oh man, it's manufactured

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and on the fifth time you hear the band
say the same line in an interview and

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like, that's heartbreaking when you're
21, but when you're 45, it's like, well,

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yeah, what else are they going to say?

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You've got to do a lot of interviews.

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It's, you know, it just, there's that
great old saying, like, um, you know, was

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it the young, the young person finds the
injustice of the world outrageous and the

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middle aged person finds it scandalous
and the old person finds it amusing.

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And yeah, an event that's like, it's
just coming to terms with reality.

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And like, so.

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Joe: Do you want to hear my
impression of every, uh, interview

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with a band on Community Road Radio?

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I'd love that.

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It's really, it's really brief.

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Yeah.

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So tell us, how did the
new album come about?

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Well, it was a really organic process.

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We just got in the studio
and yeah, that's it.

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That's every single
interview with a musician.

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It's like, don't get these people to talk.

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They're musicians.

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Just get in and play
music, or play their music.

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Also, don't

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Sam: ask them about their music.

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Ask them about other people's music.

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You will get a much
more interesting answer.

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Joe: It's like the football of the
footballer They say, wow that was amazing

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out there, you had 40 possessions and
you kicked 5 goals and you were easily

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the best player on the field and they
always say, ah it was a team effort,

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all the boys chipped in today, a great
effort by the boys and a team effort.

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You've got to say that.

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You've got to say it.

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You have to.

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Well, in Australia, you do.

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Yeah.

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In America, you can say, yeah,
I'm the fucking greatest and I'm

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going to go to the new heights.

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Yeah.

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Thank God.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm going to go.

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There's no telling how good I can be.

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You know, exactly.

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That's the American way.

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But the Australian way is it's
always, no matter how much better

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you are than everyone else.

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And I watch a lot of football.

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Some guys are just so much
better than everyone else.

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Yeah.

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Always say there's no
Michael Jordan of AFL.

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Cause then when they don't
say that it is somehow worse.

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And it's the same with the band.

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If a band doesn't say it was an organic
process and we just got in the studio

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and then the songs just came about.

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If they say, well, actually
this one's about my family.

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friend from, uh, Malambimbi.

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I

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Sam: really want them, I really want
them to say, it was actually quite

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a contrived process that, you know,
there wasn't, it wasn't very natural.

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cause to tell you the truth, like
I've, I've spent, I've actually

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spent quite a few hours in recording
studios and, you know, I've actually

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produced a fair amount of recorded
music, which is, you know, it's not.

00:10:55.479 --> 00:10:58.717
Out there for the most part to find,
so don't bother looking, but, there are

00:10:58.717 --> 00:11:03.367
times when it's organic, and then there
are times when it is just a grind, it's

00:11:03.367 --> 00:11:06.327
just work, and you're just getting it
done, and there's a process, and you're

00:11:06.327 --> 00:11:11.477
following it, and I, I like the honest
interviews, they're more interesting, and,

00:11:11.477 --> 00:11:15.682
um, Yes, believe me, this does relate to
the FOMO JOMO, like it's so much easier

00:11:15.682 --> 00:11:18.722
to accept what's not happening or what
could be happening or what you think.

00:11:19.022 --> 00:11:21.642
Basically, if you're living in
reality as much as possible, you're

00:11:21.642 --> 00:11:23.462
not troubled by these things as much.

00:11:23.482 --> 00:11:25.942
And then that gets so much
easier the older you are.

00:11:26.392 --> 00:11:30.112
Um, and although as you do age, you
start to worry about other things you

00:11:30.112 --> 00:11:34.452
might be missing out on such as time with
your children or, you know, cause when

00:11:34.452 --> 00:11:39.129
you were having a bender at Splendour,
you weren't doing something else.

00:11:39.709 --> 00:11:42.419
That might have actually
been more nourishing for you.

00:11:42.629 --> 00:11:47.244
And the one time I went to Splendour,
I felt the same way I felt today.

00:11:47.744 --> 00:11:53.264
When I finally went to Big Day Out, I'd,
I'd clearly arrived too late, like, in

00:11:53.264 --> 00:11:56.964
terms of the age of the festivals, like,
this thing is clearly past its prime,

00:11:57.344 --> 00:12:01.054
see through it almost immediately,
and go, alright, well, let's do our

00:12:01.054 --> 00:12:03.314
best to extract, you know, something

00:12:03.314 --> 00:12:07.629
Joe: here, but Do you mean as opposed
to taking the same drugs in forest,

00:12:07.629 --> 00:12:10.759
or as opposed to taking the same
drugs in your home with your friends.

00:12:10.779 --> 00:12:11.799
Yeah, exactly.

00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:15.839
And then the most, yeah, I had an
interesting experience in Jomo recently

00:12:15.839 --> 00:12:20.929
where a guy I work with went to a dance
music festival and my housemate actually.

00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:26.039
And it was going to be 43
degrees each day for five days.

00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:27.049
And they still went.

00:12:27.079 --> 00:12:27.539
Yeah.

00:12:27.719 --> 00:12:31.074
And I was like, like, I don't take drugs
anymore, but I was like, That's crazy.

00:12:31.084 --> 00:12:31.434
Yeah.

00:12:32.304 --> 00:12:33.564
Ali: I could not think of anything worse.

00:12:33.904 --> 00:12:35.114
It's my personal hell.

00:12:35.304 --> 00:12:35.794
Sam: Don't do it.

00:12:36.054 --> 00:12:38.884
Like, you see Burning Man,
, trudging on foot out of there?

00:12:38.924 --> 00:12:39.394
Joe: The best.

00:12:39.464 --> 00:12:39.674
Yeah.

00:12:39.734 --> 00:12:44.404
But like, you've already
got your drug stash, right?

00:12:44.404 --> 00:12:45.504
You've already organized that.

00:12:45.729 --> 00:12:47.219
It's going to be 43 degrees.

00:12:47.599 --> 00:12:52.029
You've got air conditioning, get your
drugs, get your friends, sit in the

00:12:52.029 --> 00:12:54.389
air, put on some fucking Citrans.

00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:59.149
If you want, hire a little strobe and
a little fucking smoke machine and

00:12:59.149 --> 00:13:03.289
you'll have a much better five days,
you know, and you can Uber Eats and

00:13:03.299 --> 00:13:04.789
you can, you know, or go to the Plenty

00:13:04.789 --> 00:13:06.259
Sam: Gorge or the Botanical Gardens

00:13:06.259 --> 00:13:07.023
Joe: or something.

00:13:07.023 --> 00:13:11.914
So, but like, so that would have been
a, A FOMO turning into a JOMO, like

00:13:11.924 --> 00:13:14.084
those people could have JOMO'd that

00:13:14.084 --> 00:13:15.134
Ali: just middle age though?

00:13:15.364 --> 00:13:19.184
Is it a little bit that just like
you start to prioritize your comfort?

00:13:19.384 --> 00:13:21.884
Because the things we used to
tolerate when we were younger

00:13:21.894 --> 00:13:25.404
was, I would say, yeah, we're far
more flexible with those things.

00:13:25.404 --> 00:13:30.119
Whereas now, you know, you're like
now, Now we have back problems, or you

00:13:30.119 --> 00:13:32.819
don't sleep right, and you want your
own pillow, and you want the You talk a

00:13:32.819 --> 00:13:33.909
Joe: big Jomo game, though.

00:13:33.909 --> 00:13:36.949
This is what I find as your friend,
is you talk a big Jomo game.

00:13:36.949 --> 00:13:41.829
You're like, I'm fine, I'm just gonna
be here with my cat, and be a cat

00:13:41.829 --> 00:13:45.249
lady, and I think last night you said
to me, I can just listen to music.

00:13:45.439 --> 00:13:49.329
Nothing else, just listen to music for
hours on end, and people think, what are

00:13:49.329 --> 00:13:52.509
you doing, Ali, and I'm just listening,
I'm not even looking at my phone, I'm

00:13:52.509 --> 00:13:55.729
just listening to music, that's all
I'm doing, and I'm like, yeah righto,

00:13:55.729 --> 00:14:00.509
and then you're out dating some fucking
random who's treating you badly, and it's

00:14:00.549 --> 00:14:03.259
like, why did you stay in your couch?

00:14:03.259 --> 00:14:06.139
You had so much jomo, why did
you ever leave your couch?

00:14:06.189 --> 00:14:07.369
I gotta shake it up occasionally.

00:14:07.369 --> 00:14:10.779
No, do shake it up, because
you're not actually completely

00:14:10.779 --> 00:14:11.799
resolved to be a cat lady, right?

00:14:12.249 --> 00:14:13.289
No, no, it's just,

00:14:13.509 --> 00:14:16.219
Ali: That's a little bit
unfair, but I'll tell you

00:14:16.219 --> 00:14:18.359
Joe: another FOMO is, we don't
have to be everything all the time.

00:14:18.359 --> 00:14:23.659
Married guys have FOMO about dating
apps because they've been married from

00:14:23.659 --> 00:14:27.509
before dating apps were around and they
come up to me and I see this little

00:14:27.509 --> 00:14:28.549
look in their eye and they're like,

00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:30.579
Ali: Oh, they want to see who you are.

00:14:30.579 --> 00:14:31.299
Joe: What's it like?

00:14:31.299 --> 00:14:33.059
Ali: What's it like?

00:14:33.219 --> 00:14:33.709
And I'm like,

00:14:34.319 --> 00:14:38.429
Joe: It's a hellscape, you really
haven't missed anything, like, it's so

00:14:38.429 --> 00:14:42.319
hard to find a genuine connection, and
they're like, show me the photos, let

00:14:42.319 --> 00:14:44.459
me have a swipe, and then there's this

00:14:44.459 --> 00:14:46.219
Sam: far off look in their eyes!

00:14:46.219 --> 00:14:50.639
Man, my heart goes out to those
blokes, but I just Don't feel that way.

00:14:50.699 --> 00:14:52.969
Like I just, cause I'm
just, you know, you've

00:14:52.969 --> 00:14:54.599
Joe: never been on a dating app obviously.

00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:54.889
Sam: Okay.

00:14:54.889 --> 00:14:57.299
Well recently my wife missed
out on Taylor Swift, right?

00:14:57.299 --> 00:14:58.749
Not this last two or the one before.

00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:01.149
And no, I've never been on a
dating app and neither has she.

00:15:01.194 --> 00:15:05.034
she's had a glance at a friend's dating
app and came away very much with the

00:15:05.034 --> 00:15:08.435
impression of, okay, I think I'm good.

00:15:08.435 --> 00:15:12.474
And I don't think that speaks
about me and her admiration for me.

00:15:12.484 --> 00:15:14.914
No, I think it's more
just like, I think she is.

00:15:15.369 --> 00:15:17.789
As she said to me about the
Taylor Swift concert, I said,

00:15:17.789 --> 00:15:18.629
are you alright about this?

00:15:18.629 --> 00:15:20.139
And she goes, absolutely.

00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.989
I can imagine how I'd feel.

00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:24.729
I know exactly how I'd
feel, standing there.

00:15:25.489 --> 00:15:26.249
I don't need it.

00:15:26.459 --> 00:15:27.599
And I'm like, I believe you.

00:15:27.599 --> 00:15:28.139
I thought you were the

00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:28.769
Joe: one with autism.

00:15:29.814 --> 00:15:30.014
Oh,

00:15:30.264 --> 00:15:31.894
Sam: that's just between you and me.

00:15:33.264 --> 00:15:35.114
Joe: I know exactly how I would feel.

00:15:35.464 --> 00:15:38.964
And now I am imagining that and
feeling that here and I'm fine.

00:15:39.924 --> 00:15:41.104
And there's some other,

00:15:41.524 --> 00:15:42.534
Sam: there's some other little clues.

00:15:44.904 --> 00:15:47.584
It's not entirely my fault that
my kids are the way they are.

00:15:47.584 --> 00:15:49.154
Joe: Anyway.

00:15:49.154 --> 00:15:50.724
Yeah.

00:15:50.724 --> 00:15:55.004
There was a lot of, I mean, I was
working with younger women who I had

00:15:55.004 --> 00:15:56.654
my Taylor Swift tickets, but they.

00:15:57.384 --> 00:16:02.044
I had one woman's house, but this was a,
I loved this as a FOMO, in your face FOMO.

00:16:02.164 --> 00:16:02.354
Yeah.

00:16:02.709 --> 00:16:06.379
Her housemate had got tickets to
three nights in a row at Melbourne

00:16:06.449 --> 00:16:08.079
and wouldn't give her one of them.

00:16:08.079 --> 00:16:11.689
She just went on her own
three nights in a row.

00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:17.639
And this person was a massive swifty,
she wouldn't give her one of the tickets.

00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:19.389
So she had a bit of

00:16:19.389 --> 00:16:21.099
Sam: FOMO, sitting at home, not going.

00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:24.699
I could really, my heart goes
out to those people, honestly.

00:16:25.634 --> 00:16:29.524
You know, well, like when, when I went
to see Alanis Morissette and that was

00:16:29.524 --> 00:16:31.604
actually a peak experience and that

00:16:31.604 --> 00:16:33.044
Ali: was so much fun to

00:16:33.044 --> 00:16:35.124
Sam: this day, it's going
to be hard to top it.

00:16:35.274 --> 00:16:36.104
It really will be.

00:16:36.164 --> 00:16:37.474
And it was so much fun.

00:16:37.494 --> 00:16:38.324
It was such a good

00:16:38.324 --> 00:16:38.694
Ali: concert.

00:16:38.694 --> 00:16:40.564
I was 13.

00:16:40.594 --> 00:16:44.534
I'd got the tickets for my 13th
birthday and I had my Doc Martin

00:16:44.534 --> 00:16:46.924
boots and just, it was just such a.

00:16:47.599 --> 00:16:50.959
It was a very profound experience
for me as a young person seeing her.

00:16:51.769 --> 00:16:52.504
It was, it was, it was really cool.

00:16:52.504 --> 00:16:52.824
Mm-Hmm,

00:16:52.909 --> 00:16:53.659
Sam: It was for me too.

00:16:53.659 --> 00:16:55.969
And I was a jaded 19-year-old at the time.

00:16:55.969 --> 00:16:56.659
18 maybe.

00:16:56.664 --> 00:16:58.339
And I was like, no, these rules.

00:16:58.369 --> 00:16:58.399
Mm.

00:16:58.583 --> 00:17:02.788
I was there with about four, yeah,
about four or five girls and me and

00:17:02.788 --> 00:17:03.778
I think, was there another dude?

00:17:03.783 --> 00:17:04.348
I can't remember.

00:17:04.348 --> 00:17:05.008
I don't think so.

00:17:05.338 --> 00:17:10.858
And like ostensibly, I was there as like
a, to keep an eye on them, on behalf of.

00:17:10.952 --> 00:17:13.165
you know, a couple of their mums
and stuff and they were like,

00:17:13.195 --> 00:17:14.185
we, we don't want to go along.

00:17:14.185 --> 00:17:16.625
We don't want to like crowd
the vibe and I'm like, okay.

00:17:17.085 --> 00:17:18.245
But I was a fan too.

00:17:18.285 --> 00:17:20.975
And like, I knew every word
and I was like, this rules.

00:17:21.175 --> 00:17:21.690
And yeah.

00:17:22.170 --> 00:17:24.840
I just know that not, I can't,
I'm not gonna be able to go to

00:17:24.840 --> 00:17:27.570
the tennis center and anything's
ever gonna hit the same way again.

00:17:27.570 --> 00:17:28.770
So why worry about it?

00:17:28.830 --> 00:17:29.280
Like,

00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:30.210
Joe: yeah.

00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:30.450
Yeah.

00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:34.680
I mean that's, I guess that's why,
see, I have another friend who goes

00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:40.444
to gigs all the time and, you know, I
got sober a certain way using the 12

00:17:40.444 --> 00:17:44.644
steps and whatever, and then he just a
few years later just stopped drinking.

00:17:45.206 --> 00:17:46.006
Without the process.

00:17:46.006 --> 00:17:47.006
Without the process.

00:17:47.226 --> 00:17:48.566
Sam: No, you've been doing it internally.

00:17:48.906 --> 00:17:50.326
Joe: Who knows, but like I

00:17:50.336 --> 00:17:50.876
Sam: guarantee

00:17:50.886 --> 00:17:50.906
Joe: it.

00:17:50.926 --> 00:17:54.056
I've been around sobriety long
enough to know that some people

00:17:54.056 --> 00:17:56.826
just stop drinking and they don't
need any spiritual assistance.

00:17:56.846 --> 00:17:58.756
What I'm saying is there's
always a process happening

00:17:58.766 --> 00:17:59.296
Sam: inside.

00:17:59.661 --> 00:18:04.241
Joe: Well, yeah, I mean, this guy has
gone on, like, obsessive exercising.

00:18:04.241 --> 00:18:06.261
He's in the gym at 5am every single day.

00:18:06.611 --> 00:18:06.751
Okay.

00:18:07.301 --> 00:18:07.801
Whatever.

00:18:07.831 --> 00:18:08.311
There's your answer.

00:18:08.361 --> 00:18:09.731
But he also goes to gigs.

00:18:09.731 --> 00:18:11.701
He was always someone I
went to some gigs with.

00:18:11.901 --> 00:18:13.021
I went to a lot of gigs with.

00:18:13.021 --> 00:18:14.171
And he has no issue with shows like gigs.

00:18:14.171 --> 00:18:16.081
He still goes to gigs all the time, right?

00:18:16.431 --> 00:18:16.841
And doesn't

00:18:16.841 --> 00:18:17.271
Sam: drink.

00:18:17.451 --> 00:18:19.321
I would see people all
the time at those things.

00:18:19.331 --> 00:18:24.221
Because as a bartender, I saw hundreds of
shows and there were so many people there

00:18:24.221 --> 00:18:25.961
who were not ordering anything from me.

00:18:26.041 --> 00:18:26.681
I get it.

00:18:26.981 --> 00:18:27.091
But for

00:18:27.091 --> 00:18:31.864
Joe: me So the, the great, times
that aren't Jomo or FOMO, the great

00:18:31.864 --> 00:18:35.024
times I've gone out and had a dance
all night or whatever, so sobriety,

00:18:35.024 --> 00:18:38.504
I could count on one hand in
sobriety, but they were great times.

00:18:38.574 --> 00:18:43.210
But when I go and stand in a Melbourne
pub and don't drink a beer and the

00:18:43.220 --> 00:18:48.450
band plays their whatever, prog
rock or whatever it is, and they're

00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:51.220
standing there with the guitars
and I'm standing there not dancing.

00:18:51.685 --> 00:18:54.725
To me, it's incredibly boring
and I'd rather just be at home.

00:18:55.085 --> 00:18:58.145
Whereas when I'd used to have
three or four beers and get, I'd

00:18:58.145 --> 00:19:01.985
be feeling the music and maybe
be leaning into someone or.

00:19:02.530 --> 00:19:04.910
In Melbourne, people always stand
around, ignore the music, and

00:19:04.910 --> 00:19:06.040
talk really loudly to each other.

00:19:06.040 --> 00:19:06.290
It's true.

00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:10.600
so, but, so that, ignoring the music,
being rude, talking loudly to your

00:19:10.600 --> 00:19:14.230
friend about what happened at work
this week is a drunken thing to do.

00:19:14.280 --> 00:19:14.730
And do you know what?

00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:16.750
As a sober person, you're
like, oh, I wouldn't do that.

00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:17.430
That's odd.

00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:17.980
Yeah, it is odd.

00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:18.830
There's a band playing.

00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:20.910
So, it's interesting, like, I've
had It's a stupid thing to do.

00:19:20.950 --> 00:19:24.190
Ali: Lots of, yeah, I spent all of my
money on gigs and concerts and stuff when

00:19:24.190 --> 00:19:27.920
I was young, and, and it, you know, like,
it was always a huge priority for me.

00:19:27.930 --> 00:19:27.950
Yeah.

00:19:27.951 --> 00:19:28.078
Yeah.

00:19:28.078 --> 00:19:28.205
Yeah.

00:19:28.535 --> 00:19:32.935
The difference in the appreciation I've
had, yeah, being sober at a concert

00:19:32.935 --> 00:19:36.645
and sitting down and appreciating
it for that, for what it was.

00:19:36.645 --> 00:19:37.475
Actually being present.

00:19:37.475 --> 00:19:37.845
Present.

00:19:37.845 --> 00:19:38.625
And that was incredible.

00:19:38.625 --> 00:19:42.695
But then I can't, yeah, on the same
hand, one of the most fun concerts

00:19:42.695 --> 00:19:47.495
I've ever been to was the White Stripes
at Festival Hall when I was like 19

00:19:47.496 --> 00:19:47.736
Sam: or 20.

00:19:47.736 --> 00:19:48.215
And did you get

00:19:48.215 --> 00:19:48.335
Ali: wasted?

00:19:48.335 --> 00:19:48.860
Oh, I was completely wasted.

00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.410
Very, I was off my face on everything.

00:19:51.510 --> 00:19:53.580
I got into a fight, I
got kicked in the face.

00:19:53.710 --> 00:19:55.930
It was the most fun I think I've ever

00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:56.620
Sam: had.

00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:58.340
Sometimes you need a kick in the face.

00:19:58.400 --> 00:19:59.690
It was, and I got a boot to the

00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:00.000
Ali: face.

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:05.690
Like it was just the most, like it was
so hot and so that the condensation from

00:20:05.690 --> 00:20:08.350
everyone's sweat was coming off the roof.

00:20:08.370 --> 00:20:13.600
I was so, it was so like,
there's no way we'd do that now.

00:20:13.600 --> 00:20:14.680
I think, couldn't think of anything worse.

00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:15.680
But at the time.

00:20:16.285 --> 00:20:17.445
It was like the best night of my life.

00:20:17.755 --> 00:20:19.865
It was so much fun, so much fun.

00:20:19.945 --> 00:20:23.445
Joe: I've been sober long enough now that
I don't know how sad it would be if I went

00:20:23.445 --> 00:20:25.255
to something and was off my head on drugs.

00:20:25.255 --> 00:20:27.535
Would I be like an older, weird guy?

00:20:27.575 --> 00:20:28.455
Well, that's the other thing.

00:20:28.455 --> 00:20:31.905
Like, you know, like, I, but,
but yeah, I mean, I could see it.

00:20:32.225 --> 00:20:35.705
Boring, but I can sit here all day
and list amazing experiences on

00:20:35.715 --> 00:20:39.385
different substances, with different
bands or at different festivals, and

00:20:39.415 --> 00:20:42.605
I have zero regrets about any of it.

00:20:42.705 --> 00:20:47.097
But my experience is, without
the substances, I just

00:20:47.647 --> 00:20:48.997
would rather be at home.

00:20:49.247 --> 00:20:52.057
And that's where the Jomo, which
I only found out about a few weeks

00:20:52.057 --> 00:20:55.057
ago, because the ultimate Jomo
for me is watching Tess Cricket.

00:20:55.837 --> 00:21:01.312
And I I worked out through a process
of elimination that if the whole world

00:21:01.342 --> 00:21:05.312
would just fuck off and leave me alone
to watch Tess cricket, that's about the

00:21:05.312 --> 00:21:11.352
happiest I can be, which is solitary in
my house, on a hot summer's day usually.

00:21:11.392 --> 00:21:12.295
Just really chewed into this.

00:21:12.295 --> 00:21:13.172
So how is that any

00:21:13.262 --> 00:21:16.182
Ali: different from me, like,
sitting at home, yeah, with the

00:21:16.182 --> 00:21:17.512
cat and then listening to music?

00:21:17.512 --> 00:21:18.532
It's the same thing.

00:21:18.642 --> 00:21:18.922
Joe: Yeah.

00:21:18.992 --> 00:21:22.562
Yeah, and it's the same in, as
well, in the way that I say I won't

00:21:22.622 --> 00:21:24.632
compromise on that to have a girlfriend.

00:21:25.052 --> 00:21:29.142
If they say to me, Well, you might want
to watch Test Cricket, but we're going

00:21:29.142 --> 00:21:34.302
to fucking Port Ferry this weekend for a
quaint Airbnb, I'm like, well, I'm fucking

00:21:34.302 --> 00:21:35.822
not going, I'll be watching the cricket.

00:21:35.842 --> 00:21:36.272
Obviously,

00:21:36.272 --> 00:21:40.642
Sam: the right partner for you
will either be like, awesome,

00:21:40.822 --> 00:21:42.202
this guy likes Test Cricket.

00:21:42.402 --> 00:21:44.802
That means I get time to myself.

00:21:45.762 --> 00:21:49.192
And that also there's a certain
character assessment there.

00:21:49.432 --> 00:21:54.232
This person has an eye for detail and
subtlety and you know, hasn't, can

00:21:54.242 --> 00:21:56.042
sustain an attention on something.

00:21:56.042 --> 00:22:00.212
Like these are actually, these are
good qualities and there's a lot of

00:22:00.612 --> 00:22:04.722
I've met some very fine people that
prefer Ted's Cricket to any other kind.

00:22:04.792 --> 00:22:07.382
And I say it does actually speaks
highly of character, I think.

00:22:07.922 --> 00:22:12.922
And so there's that or the right
partner for you at first doesn't get it.

00:22:13.022 --> 00:22:16.882
And then it's quite happy to
see that I'm still in some

00:22:16.892 --> 00:22:21.217
Joe: paradigm where If it was Meredith
Music Festival and Test Cricket on

00:22:21.217 --> 00:22:24.495
the same weekend, for some reason
Would you feel a conflict over it?

00:22:24.535 --> 00:22:28.565
There's this perceived pressure, which
is an AFL footy term, perceived pressure

00:22:28.605 --> 00:22:33.045
that I should go and do the Meredith
Music Festival, and very clearly,

00:22:33.115 --> 00:22:36.895
very clearly, I will always rather
watch Test Cricket in my lounge room.

00:22:37.215 --> 00:22:41.525
So, I don't know when I crossed that
threshold, maybe a long time ago, but

00:22:41.655 --> 00:22:45.770
it's interesting that we're all talking
about music events, And it's, is there

00:22:45.770 --> 00:22:49.350
a perceived pressure that somehow as
Melbourne people or whatever, we should

00:22:49.350 --> 00:22:52.870
be seeing bands, and actually we're
just sitting in our fucking houses.

00:22:53.340 --> 00:22:56.150
And, you know, music venues are
atrophying and all that stuff.

00:22:56.520 --> 00:22:59.300
I mean, with you, Sam, you're
the biggest homebody, almost,

00:22:59.430 --> 00:23:01.150
almost bigger homebody than Ali.

00:23:01.610 --> 00:23:05.740
Do you experience Jomo when you're
at home going, Oh, this is nice

00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:09.310
compared to, or do you forget about
what it's compared to altogether?

00:23:09.340 --> 00:23:11.880
Do you, do you feel any
pressure to be out and about?

00:23:11.910 --> 00:23:14.620
Sam: Well, that's the absolute
trick is to forget about whatever

00:23:14.620 --> 00:23:16.180
else and just be wherever you are.

00:23:16.540 --> 00:23:19.960
Now, this doesn't mean I don't misuse
my time and have moments of regret.

00:23:20.780 --> 00:23:23.350
I tell you the stuff I really
like, okay, so I'll start,

00:23:23.540 --> 00:23:25.410
I'll honor the Jomo part first.

00:23:25.890 --> 00:23:27.890
So cause I actually, I
really am all about it.

00:23:28.150 --> 00:23:32.242
When there was mud at Splendour
last year, I hate to admit it.

00:23:32.512 --> 00:23:33.452
I'm only human.

00:23:34.072 --> 00:23:35.592
I'm just like sucked in,

00:23:36.162 --> 00:23:36.202
Ali: sucked

00:23:36.202 --> 00:23:40.142
Sam: in, like brilliant.

00:23:40.742 --> 00:23:44.292
And it reminded me that it had
rained a bit the year I was there.

00:23:44.822 --> 00:23:47.352
And I was like, that
was getting up my ass.

00:23:47.702 --> 00:23:48.742
Now imagine.

00:23:49.042 --> 00:23:52.062
So, way more rain, the 20 years older.

00:23:52.112 --> 00:23:53.162
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:53.512 --> 00:23:57.172
This is apocalyptically shitty.

00:23:57.702 --> 00:23:59.582
And I'm so glad I'm not there.

00:23:59.822 --> 00:24:02.512
And then Burning Man was
a complete fiasco as well.

00:24:02.702 --> 00:24:03.582
And the Fyre Festival.

00:24:03.882 --> 00:24:09.407
So, I'm just There's about a 10 year
period where I really got the message and

00:24:09.407 --> 00:24:10.497
look, cause my wife had said it to me.

00:24:10.497 --> 00:24:12.807
She goes, whatever you
think it is, it's not that.

00:24:13.307 --> 00:24:15.687
And like she's, she was so right.

00:24:15.717 --> 00:24:18.307
And this is when we'd first met
and I think I was still like

00:24:18.317 --> 00:24:23.467
sort of like 29 and I was, I kind
of somehow had gotten the idea.

00:24:23.507 --> 00:24:26.757
I have not misspent my twenties
enough, you know, and she's like,

00:24:26.757 --> 00:24:28.617
bro, you've fucking misspent them.

00:24:28.637 --> 00:24:29.197
Don't worry.

00:24:29.807 --> 00:24:31.067
And like, you've done it.

00:24:31.317 --> 00:24:32.347
Whatever it is you think it is.

00:24:32.387 --> 00:24:33.057
It ain't that.

00:24:33.277 --> 00:24:33.977
Move on.

00:24:34.023 --> 00:24:37.193
she could see in me, there were all
these other curiosities and ambitions

00:24:37.193 --> 00:24:40.586
and she was like, fuck all this, whatever
you think that is, there's things in

00:24:40.776 --> 00:24:42.516
you that you want to do, do those.

00:24:42.556 --> 00:24:45.826
So now the thing that gives me FOMO
is if I'm not chasing after the

00:24:45.826 --> 00:24:50.086
shit that I really find interesting,
which is nearly always at home stuff.

00:24:50.091 --> 00:24:50.141
Yes.

00:24:50.201 --> 00:24:52.876
Tho there is that just stuff or
I can go to the library to do it.

00:24:52.876 --> 00:24:55.816
Is that looking stuff up online that Yeah.

00:24:55.816 --> 00:24:56.116
Yeah.

00:24:56.121 --> 00:24:57.886
Making things sitting here at the piano.

00:24:57.891 --> 00:24:58.906
Mm oh, right.

00:24:58.911 --> 00:24:59.056
Yeah.

00:24:59.056 --> 00:24:59.566
That's cool.

00:24:59.596 --> 00:25:00.436
Making things.

00:25:00.436 --> 00:25:01.936
That's what I fear missing out on.

00:25:01.936 --> 00:25:02.026
Yeah.

00:25:02.031 --> 00:25:06.666
Ali: That's like I was saying to Joe
last night, the thing I really resent is

00:25:06.666 --> 00:25:12.246
that I don't have enough time to do the
things I actually wanna do or take joy in.

00:25:12.246 --> 00:25:14.226
I could easily fill my days.

00:25:14.346 --> 00:25:14.496
Sam: Yeah.

00:25:14.716 --> 00:25:16.786
Ali: With all the things
I wanna do, not what I'm

00:25:16.786 --> 00:25:18.316
Sam: missing out on getting Yeah.

00:25:18.316 --> 00:25:20.086
What I'm missing out on doing for myself.

00:25:20.086 --> 00:25:20.506
Exactly.

00:25:20.506 --> 00:25:20.686
Yeah.

00:25:20.686 --> 00:25:20.866
So,

00:25:20.866 --> 00:25:24.456
Ali: and I, I begrudge that I have
to work and not do the things I wanna

00:25:24.461 --> 00:25:26.046
do, which is everybody, but me too.

00:25:26.076 --> 00:25:26.286
Yeah.

00:25:26.286 --> 00:25:28.176
But , like I could, yeah.

00:25:28.176 --> 00:25:29.526
I would make sure Joe
loves working by the way.

00:25:29.526 --> 00:25:31.446
I, I would be so happy to spend my time.

00:25:31.446 --> 00:25:31.626
Yeah.

00:25:31.626 --> 00:25:35.106
Like cooking things or making things,
or playing the piano or having the

00:25:35.106 --> 00:25:36.966
time to do all of those things.

00:25:36.966 --> 00:25:38.316
Like, whereas it's all
just obviously Yeah.

00:25:38.316 --> 00:25:40.776
Condensed to weekends or like a
couple hours in the evening when

00:25:40.776 --> 00:25:42.816
you're exhausted and so, yeah.

00:25:43.736 --> 00:25:47.906
I, it's, that's the fear I, the missing
out on those things and those are,

00:25:47.906 --> 00:25:49.676
yeah, quite often solitary things.

00:25:49.676 --> 00:25:52.636
It's not like going out or going
on dates or anything like that.

00:25:52.636 --> 00:25:55.886
Like it's, it's actually
spending time in the garden.

00:25:55.896 --> 00:25:57.210
Like that's what I fear.

00:25:57.656 --> 00:25:57.696
There's

00:25:57.696 --> 00:25:58.916
Joe: nothing blocking
you from those things.

00:25:58.916 --> 00:25:59.206
There's

00:25:59.746 --> 00:26:03.676
Ali: a couple of things, but, but yeah,
there is, but some of those things just

00:26:03.686 --> 00:26:05.486
take an extraordinary amount of time.

00:26:05.486 --> 00:26:05.936
I can't imagine

00:26:05.956 --> 00:26:08.146
Joe: having FOMO about
something I can do in my house.

00:26:08.191 --> 00:26:09.131
Yes.

00:26:09.211 --> 00:26:12.561
FOMO to me is something amazing happening
in the world that I'm not a part of.

00:26:12.761 --> 00:26:12.961
Sam: No, no, no.

00:26:12.991 --> 00:26:13.551
Put it this way.

00:26:13.571 --> 00:26:17.969
If I'm away, let's say, I've had to stay
at work because of a meeting or something.

00:26:18.146 --> 00:26:21.766
That's when I'm having FOMO because
there's shit at home that I could

00:26:21.766 --> 00:26:25.176
be doing, like useful things or
fun things or meaningful things.

00:26:25.186 --> 00:26:28.886
It's like three things basically,
useful, fun or meaningful.

00:26:28.887 --> 00:26:30.381
And it's like, All three.

00:26:30.431 --> 00:26:31.111
Oh my God.

00:26:31.411 --> 00:26:33.786
And things that are
useful, fun and meaningful.

00:26:34.546 --> 00:26:38.446
I hate to be a boring virtuous
bastard about this, but very rarely

00:26:38.446 --> 00:26:40.596
can you buy it, whatever that is.

00:26:40.696 --> 00:26:46.047
And yes, it costs you something, your
effort, your attention, your commitment.

00:26:46.097 --> 00:26:49.887
It costs you the opportunity
to do something else.

00:26:50.307 --> 00:26:53.987
And this is the real key to like
getting over FOMO is realizing the

00:26:53.997 --> 00:26:56.037
thing you're not missing out on.

00:26:56.747 --> 00:26:57.637
That's not the issue.

00:26:58.662 --> 00:27:03.762
It's your inability to commit to
something that you're, it's not that.

00:27:04.622 --> 00:27:07.532
If you really wanted to go to that
festival, you probably would have done it.

00:27:07.652 --> 00:27:08.732
You would have figured it out.

00:27:09.102 --> 00:27:11.302
If that was really what you
were after, you wouldn't be

00:27:11.432 --> 00:27:13.222
sitting here worrying about it.

00:27:13.242 --> 00:27:15.072
You'd have made up your mind,
well, next time I'm going to

00:27:15.072 --> 00:27:16.202
get it together and do that.

00:27:16.492 --> 00:27:18.412
The truth is, that's just a proxy.

00:27:18.412 --> 00:27:19.032
It's a stand in.

00:27:19.032 --> 00:27:19.892
It's a fetish.

00:27:19.922 --> 00:27:21.242
It's an object A.

00:27:21.512 --> 00:27:24.952
You've put, it's like, it's like
you with romantic relationships.

00:27:25.082 --> 00:27:25.702
That's the thing.

00:27:25.712 --> 00:27:26.292
That's the thing.

00:27:26.292 --> 00:27:26.992
That's the thing.

00:27:27.112 --> 00:27:29.202
And people are going around doing
this to themselves all the time.

00:27:29.202 --> 00:27:30.422
And so am I, right?

00:27:30.692 --> 00:27:33.132
And addicts especially do this.

00:27:33.257 --> 00:27:34.137
That's the thing.

00:27:34.137 --> 00:27:35.017
That's the thing.

00:27:35.017 --> 00:27:35.767
That's the thing.

00:27:36.047 --> 00:27:37.677
So turn, turn within

00:27:38.117 --> 00:27:38.787
Joe: and there it is.

00:27:38.847 --> 00:27:42.247
I'll have FOMO about if I
have a break from dating apps.

00:27:42.797 --> 00:27:43.477
It's interesting.

00:27:43.487 --> 00:27:46.177
Like I can shut down social
media and just walk away.

00:27:46.247 --> 00:27:47.107
12 hours off there.

00:27:47.137 --> 00:27:48.797
That's, that's three
dates you could have had.

00:27:48.807 --> 00:27:49.517
Oh my God.

00:27:49.597 --> 00:27:50.067
Yeah.

00:27:50.137 --> 00:27:50.737
I'm okay.

00:27:50.737 --> 00:27:55.607
And then when I get so much missing out,
say if I'm off the dating apps and then

00:27:55.787 --> 00:27:59.547
Ali starts telling me about dates she's
got coming up, I'll feel a bit of FOMO.

00:27:59.557 --> 00:28:00.407
Stop triggering him.

00:28:00.487 --> 00:28:00.957
Yeah.

00:28:01.337 --> 00:28:03.027
But like, if other people are.

00:28:03.472 --> 00:28:06.282
Are having fun and it's like, that's
when I get FOMO, because yeah.

00:28:06.282 --> 00:28:06.982
It's what you just said.

00:28:06.982 --> 00:28:10.872
It's what I've prior
prioritised as having value.

00:28:11.002 --> 00:28:11.452
Yeah.

00:28:11.462 --> 00:28:16.902
So, I feel like I'm I, I have perceived
pressure that I should have FOMO about

00:28:16.902 --> 00:28:18.902
not going to gigs of bands that I like.

00:28:18.942 --> 00:28:19.192
Yeah.

00:28:19.202 --> 00:28:20.032
But actually.

00:28:20.507 --> 00:28:24.857
I'll be often in those moments feeling
Jomo at, well, I might be most, a lot of

00:28:24.857 --> 00:28:28.157
nights I'm doing stuff for my recovery,
actually, and yeah, that's right,

00:28:28.157 --> 00:28:30.259
spanning my, spiritual life and whatever.

00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:33.359
And a lot of times that shows are
on, I'm actually got my kids and I

00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:34.599
wouldn't have been able to be there.

00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:36.849
I'm starting at work four in the
morning next day and I wouldn't

00:28:36.849 --> 00:28:37.679
have been able to be there.

00:28:37.729 --> 00:28:37.899
No.

00:28:38.109 --> 00:28:38.959
And I actually, the

00:28:38.959 --> 00:28:41.479
Sam: only, one of the few times
I've had FOMO recently was when you

00:28:41.479 --> 00:28:44.987
were like reading books and like
keen and having a good time with it.

00:28:44.987 --> 00:28:46.417
And I'm like, that is something.

00:28:46.427 --> 00:28:47.117
Yeah.

00:28:47.117 --> 00:28:47.152
Yeah.

00:28:47.152 --> 00:28:47.187
Yeah.

00:28:47.427 --> 00:28:49.557
That's like, that's a thing
that called to me a little bit.

00:28:49.567 --> 00:28:49.607
I don't

00:28:49.617 --> 00:28:54.758
Joe: have, I need to find More
Jomo, as in, I won't be getting up

00:28:54.798 --> 00:28:57.488
and going to work tomorrow because
I don't have work at the moment.

00:28:57.488 --> 00:29:00.728
What you guys are talking about
is, I want to play my piano and

00:29:00.728 --> 00:29:02.088
my keyboard and be creative.

00:29:02.088 --> 00:29:05.188
I don't have the equivalent of that.

00:29:05.198 --> 00:29:11.078
So when I get a surplus of my own time, it
becomes unpleasant fairly quickly for me.

00:29:11.731 --> 00:29:12.471
Ali: That's what I was saying to you.

00:29:12.481 --> 00:29:15.121
I very rarely get bored.

00:29:15.211 --> 00:29:17.151
I really don't get bored.

00:29:17.834 --> 00:29:19.754
I remembered this was a
while ago, cause I've been

00:29:19.754 --> 00:29:22.134
Joe: Do you, do you, do
you want a fucking medal?

00:29:22.564 --> 00:29:24.064
Ali: No, it's not, no, I'm just

00:29:24.314 --> 00:29:25.548
Joe: We're going somewhere with this.

00:29:25.548 --> 00:29:26.037
No, I

00:29:26.037 --> 00:29:30.664
Ali: was gonna say, like, I remember this
really vividly, coming back, On the tram

00:29:30.664 --> 00:29:37.464
from work, just thinking, like coming
back from work and thinking, I cannot

00:29:37.464 --> 00:29:43.254
wait to get home to the cat, be in my
comfy clothes, have something to eat.

00:29:43.254 --> 00:29:46.444
Like it was just, I was
so excited for that.

00:29:46.504 --> 00:29:47.944
It was such a simple thing.

00:29:48.364 --> 00:29:49.524
Joe: That's the definition of Jomo.

00:29:49.849 --> 00:29:50.819
Now you're ringing my bell right?

00:29:50.819 --> 00:29:51.729
Yeah, like it was, I was,

00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.969
Ali: it was just really, could not wait.

00:29:54.149 --> 00:29:56.139
Joe: What you're missing out
on is all the other possible

00:29:56.149 --> 00:29:57.279
things you could do that night.

00:29:57.329 --> 00:29:58.589
Yeah, like a dance club.

00:29:58.909 --> 00:29:59.319
Yeah, could be

00:29:59.329 --> 00:30:00.649
Ali: having after work drinks on a Friday.

00:30:00.649 --> 00:30:04.284
All of those things that historically
I would have been like, Oh, I haven't

00:30:04.284 --> 00:30:06.189
Joe: listed very many things
that we're missing out on, but

00:30:06.189 --> 00:30:07.359
it is what you would assume.

00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:08.669
It's like after work drinks,

00:30:08.669 --> 00:30:10.319
Sam: after work drinks with
the colleagues that has, that

00:30:10.329 --> 00:30:11.769
has got me a few times lately.

00:30:12.919 --> 00:30:16.564
It's not, It's not for the, it's just
to talk shit with the colleagues.

00:30:16.564 --> 00:30:16.674
Yeah.

00:30:16.674 --> 00:30:17.924
It's like, okay, I
haven't done that enough.

00:30:17.924 --> 00:30:18.464
Fair enough.

00:30:18.484 --> 00:30:21.364
That well, then that's just
telling you don't have anything

00:30:21.364 --> 00:30:22.324
Joe: other than you doing it.

00:30:22.324 --> 00:30:23.594
That's not Jomo or Thomo.

00:30:23.684 --> 00:30:24.124
Exactly.

00:30:24.134 --> 00:30:27.524
I only have to, that's you doing the
expected thing, which is the social thing.

00:30:27.534 --> 00:30:28.184
Sam: Well, exactly.

00:30:28.204 --> 00:30:31.274
But what I'm saying is if I felt the
twinge, even for a second, that's

00:30:31.274 --> 00:30:34.684
just a signal from my subconscious
going, okay, we'll go and do it.

00:30:34.684 --> 00:30:35.424
If it's important to you.

00:30:35.434 --> 00:30:35.634
Yeah.

00:30:35.814 --> 00:30:38.564
But like the, I remember the first time
I got, you know, my wife said to me, why

00:30:39.274 --> 00:30:43.229
wouldn't, like years ago, when we first
met, wouldn't, Why wouldn't you just

00:30:43.289 --> 00:30:44.959
want to be in your pyjamas right now?

00:30:44.959 --> 00:30:47.299
And I'm like, all right, fine.

00:30:47.449 --> 00:30:48.339
It's very ace this one.

00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:49.039
Okay.

00:30:49.139 --> 00:30:50.299
I shall try this.

00:30:50.699 --> 00:30:53.379
And so, you know, so like,
oh, and have a shower first.

00:30:53.379 --> 00:30:55.519
And I'm like, makes sense.

00:30:55.699 --> 00:30:56.149
Okay.

00:30:56.159 --> 00:30:59.689
So I do that, get into the pyjamas
and I'm like, and it's like, I don't

00:30:59.689 --> 00:31:01.159
know, six o'clock at night or whatever.

00:31:01.159 --> 00:31:03.979
And I'm like, this is pretty good.

00:31:03.999 --> 00:31:06.739
Actually, I have to admit, why haven't
I been doing this for years now?

00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:10.574
And then, and then, So, a recent
experience of being in the Dharmis

00:31:10.654 --> 00:31:16.054
and like, and going, imagine if I
had to be anywhere right now, just

00:31:16.064 --> 00:31:20.074
imagine, imagine I'd even bought
tickets to something I was really into.

00:31:20.234 --> 00:31:23.988
Like nowadays it's going to be a
conference or something like that.

00:31:23.988 --> 00:31:29.644
I mean, it's going to be something,
but imagine if I booked something

00:31:29.644 --> 00:31:32.194
I was really looking forward to and
now I actually had to go and do it.

00:31:32.334 --> 00:31:32.644
Ali: Yeah.

00:31:32.644 --> 00:31:36.124
No, like, like last night,
it was a Saturday night and.

00:31:36.494 --> 00:31:36.764
Yeah.

00:31:36.764 --> 00:31:39.354
Like historically, like, why
are you not out on a date?

00:31:39.364 --> 00:31:41.034
Why not go out with your friends?

00:31:41.034 --> 00:31:42.564
Why are you not doing something?

00:31:42.584 --> 00:31:42.834
Yeah.

00:31:42.834 --> 00:31:44.234
Like doing something.

00:31:44.244 --> 00:31:47.834
And I just was so happy to be at home.

00:31:47.834 --> 00:31:49.344
I had a really good night.

00:31:49.364 --> 00:31:51.804
It was just, and like,
yeah, I did a lot of things.

00:31:51.804 --> 00:31:53.164
I watched a movie I wanted to watch.

00:31:53.164 --> 00:31:54.064
I played my piano.

00:31:54.324 --> 00:31:55.484
I talked to friends.

00:31:55.714 --> 00:31:56.864
I listened to music.

00:31:57.034 --> 00:31:59.364
Like I read, it was just.

00:31:59.754 --> 00:31:59.934
Yeah.

00:31:59.994 --> 00:32:00.194
You

00:32:00.194 --> 00:32:01.764
Sam: weren't, you weren't scrolling
Netflix looking for something.

00:32:01.764 --> 00:32:02.454
No, I wasn't just, yeah,

00:32:02.454 --> 00:32:06.264
Ali: like I did also have time to look
at TikTok too, and that was also fun.

00:32:06.264 --> 00:32:07.314
But was getting it all done.

00:32:07.344 --> 00:32:10.944
It was all just, yeah, like I
said, I, I, I, I just wish I

00:32:10.944 --> 00:32:12.774
had more time to do all that.

00:32:12.774 --> 00:32:13.284
All the time.

00:32:13.284 --> 00:32:15.144
Joe: So it is an episode
about us becoming boring.

00:32:16.549 --> 00:32:16.689
Ali: See,

00:32:16.689 --> 00:32:20.979
Sam: now this is where I do the pivot
on you and go, see, it's like, it's

00:32:20.979 --> 00:32:25.029
about the, it's like with the attachment
stuff and like body acceptance and

00:32:25.029 --> 00:32:28.029
all of this, like it's about getting
into the texture of the experience,

00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:29.739
like the reality of the thing itself.

00:32:30.049 --> 00:32:36.329
And see, cause what gets boring is
the kind of those mediated experiences

00:32:36.329 --> 00:32:40.389
where like, Oh, I need to be, I
need to be having fun right now.

00:32:40.409 --> 00:32:41.639
And the formula is this.

00:32:42.254 --> 00:32:45.844
Put together this, this and this,
and now it's fun in inverted commas.

00:32:46.104 --> 00:32:49.664
Now, whether it's ASD or whether
it's something else, that very

00:32:49.664 --> 00:32:51.174
rarely came together for me.

00:32:51.204 --> 00:32:51.534
Yeah,

00:32:51.564 --> 00:32:55.954
Ali: like the imagined experience of
what it's going to be like is, does, just

00:32:56.084 --> 00:32:58.644
often didn't match up to the reality.

00:32:58.644 --> 00:33:01.354
It's like, yeah, I, my feet hurt cause
I've been standing at the music festival.

00:33:01.694 --> 00:33:05.514
Or yeah, I'm stuck in mud or you've, and
you've had enough experiences to actually

00:33:05.514 --> 00:33:07.634
go, Oh, that's, that's not for me.

00:33:07.644 --> 00:33:07.664
Yeah.

00:33:08.449 --> 00:33:09.399
And that's okay.

00:33:09.399 --> 00:33:13.589
And yeah, being really okay with
not making yourself uncomfortable

00:33:13.589 --> 00:33:14.659
and choosing your comfort.

00:33:14.659 --> 00:33:18.079
And similarly, like you're saying
with the body stuff, like being in

00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:22.949
a, the answer that I thought to all
my problems would be if I looked

00:33:22.979 --> 00:33:25.269
a certain way, and then I lost.

00:33:25.724 --> 00:33:30.804
The weight and then I did not answer
all my problems and, but it created

00:33:30.804 --> 00:33:31.964
a whole bunch of other problems.

00:33:32.224 --> 00:33:37.524
And it was like the reality of what it was
did not match up to this like fantasy of

00:33:37.524 --> 00:33:38.624
what I thought it was going to be like.

00:33:38.624 --> 00:33:39.064
Sam: That's right.

00:33:39.194 --> 00:33:43.184
And, and, and, and so those play,
the FOMO is always coming from a

00:33:43.184 --> 00:33:45.179
place of projection and projection.

00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:50.269
And the pleasure itself that you
think you're missing out on was also

00:33:50.549 --> 00:33:54.759
an object of projection to begin
with, even when you were enjoying it.

00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:58.419
And like, I know I'm getting a little
bit too philosophical here, but

00:33:58.419 --> 00:33:59.519
you know what I'm getting at Joe?

00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:01.979
That like, Meredith isn't Meredith.

00:34:02.529 --> 00:34:06.589
I mean, I got close once, but I think I
got spoiled also because my father took

00:34:06.589 --> 00:34:11.428
me to Port Ferry, , at quite a young age,
, I saw this absolutely sublime music at

00:34:11.438 --> 00:34:17.231
like, eight, nine years old, lying down on
like a little picnic rug, Maybe my head in

00:34:17.231 --> 00:34:21.571
dad's lap and we're like listening to this
just heartbreakingly beautiful music Irish

00:34:21.571 --> 00:34:25.011
instrumental music that was like slow
not jigs and reels like something really

00:34:25.311 --> 00:34:29.911
aching these melodies and just feeling
these wonderful feelings and going like,

00:34:29.911 --> 00:34:35.321
oh man, this is so cool and Nothing's
been out of get close again to that.

00:34:35.331 --> 00:34:40.376
It's almost like I Don't, the boring is
going and doing something you think is

00:34:40.376 --> 00:34:42.576
going to be fun and projecting onto it.

00:34:43.036 --> 00:34:46.956
Like fun, the opposite of boring
is tuning into the possibilities

00:34:46.956 --> 00:34:48.536
here in the present right now.

00:34:48.596 --> 00:34:48.786
Yeah.

00:34:48.836 --> 00:34:50.016
That's where it's at.

00:34:50.266 --> 00:34:50.576
Yeah.

00:34:50.636 --> 00:34:52.126
Joe: I mean, but see everything.

00:34:52.289 --> 00:34:57.249
The path is, my path is my path because
the peak drug experience has turned

00:34:57.249 --> 00:34:58.629
into the humdrum drug experience.

00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:00.209
Turned into the bad drug experience.

00:35:00.209 --> 00:35:00.759
Well, life has just

00:35:00.759 --> 00:35:03.043
Sam: beat you over the head again
and again with the pleasures

00:35:03.043 --> 00:35:04.023
that have become poisons.

00:35:04.023 --> 00:35:04.267
Yes.

00:35:04.267 --> 00:35:08.185
Joe: You know, before I ever had kids,
I was so sick of going to fucking house

00:35:08.185 --> 00:35:11.612
parties and sitting in a backyard around
a fire and getting drunk and high.

00:35:11.612 --> 00:35:12.591
You were over it.

00:35:12.591 --> 00:35:13.571
I was over it.

00:35:13.571 --> 00:35:16.019
So I was like, Hey, I'm going to do this.

00:35:16.299 --> 00:35:17.419
How about you and me have a kid?

00:35:17.619 --> 00:35:18.359
Yeah, let's do it.

00:35:18.399 --> 00:35:21.409
And then life became fascinating again,
because there's a little baby in the

00:35:21.409 --> 00:35:26.529
house and whatever, and then same with
like music festivals, and long before

00:35:26.529 --> 00:35:28.969
I got clean and sober, I was over it.

00:35:29.309 --> 00:35:30.569
So there's no way to go back.

00:35:32.734 --> 00:35:35.344
Sam: It's only burnt bridges that you
can deal with, is what I've realised.

00:35:35.344 --> 00:35:38.614
Joe: I could be trying to hang on, but I
think it would be a bit pathetic at 44.

00:35:38.624 --> 00:35:41.634
I could have my, I could go back to
drinking and have my favourite pub in

00:35:41.634 --> 00:35:46.654
Collingwood, and wear my tracksuits, and
people would get to know me, and I'd be

00:35:46.654 --> 00:35:51.144
part of a scene, and sometimes Friday
nights I'd pick up younger women, because

00:35:51.234 --> 00:35:54.454
I go out, the only times I go out is
for dating, and I go out on dates, and

00:35:54.464 --> 00:35:56.929
from Friday nights, People come up to
me and compliment me on my tracksuit and

00:35:56.929 --> 00:36:01.389
I was like oh wow I could be out here
being a character and being part of a

00:36:01.389 --> 00:36:05.029
scene right yeah yeah but you're doing
that right now but see what I actually

00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:09.909
do is dress up in my bright tracksuits
at home yeah and go for a walk around my

00:36:09.909 --> 00:36:13.999
neighborhood in footscray and sometimes
people stop me and compliment me but it's

00:36:13.999 --> 00:36:17.309
important to me you've got it already
well I'm still trying to hang on to

00:36:17.864 --> 00:36:19.164
Sam: Some other idea of what it was.

00:36:19.184 --> 00:36:22.144
Joe: Being cool is still
a huge value for me.

00:36:22.144 --> 00:36:22.984
And I find it's fine.

00:36:23.044 --> 00:36:25.544
And I think it's really
important for me to be cool.

00:36:25.574 --> 00:36:25.714
Yeah.

00:36:25.794 --> 00:36:26.134
Great.

00:36:26.284 --> 00:36:31.764
But to do it just wherever I am,
even if that's inside my house.

00:36:31.774 --> 00:36:31.944
Yeah.

00:36:31.944 --> 00:36:32.124
And

00:36:32.124 --> 00:36:33.344
Sam: now you're preaching my gospel.

00:36:33.354 --> 00:36:33.694
Yes.

00:36:33.714 --> 00:36:34.874
Live where you live.

00:36:34.924 --> 00:36:35.394
Yeah.

00:36:35.434 --> 00:36:36.304
Be here now.

00:36:36.414 --> 00:36:37.094
And even

00:36:37.094 --> 00:36:40.074
Joe: if it's the day that I don't
leave the house, I still try and

00:36:40.074 --> 00:36:42.284
dress up in my nice track suit.

00:36:42.354 --> 00:36:46.674
And if I do go out incidentally
or whatever, it's nice

00:36:46.674 --> 00:36:47.564
to feel like I'm there.

00:36:48.494 --> 00:36:53.744
This look that I've created, I'm sticking
to it, but it's not, but the next step

00:36:53.744 --> 00:36:57.874
is to be like, well, now I'm going to
be part of this scene and they're going

00:36:57.874 --> 00:37:00.414
to know me as, you know, this guy.

00:37:00.444 --> 00:37:02.124
And I forget about all that.

00:37:02.454 --> 00:37:04.044
I basically remain anonymous.

00:37:04.094 --> 00:37:04.264
Ali: Let's

00:37:04.264 --> 00:37:05.494
Joe: book a podcast festival.

00:37:05.864 --> 00:37:06.314
Yeah.

00:37:06.314 --> 00:37:08.044
Sam: Let's go do a podcast festival.

00:37:08.674 --> 00:37:14.394
Ali: Being, you know, being perceived
as cool, still that FOMO part of that

00:37:14.404 --> 00:37:19.024
is the social currency that you get
from, I was at that festival, I was

00:37:19.024 --> 00:37:20.694
at that concert, I saw them live.

00:37:20.694 --> 00:37:23.054
And so there's a little bit of
that, Oh, that's really cool.

00:37:23.054 --> 00:37:25.524
Whereas like just saying you
spent your Saturday night at home

00:37:25.524 --> 00:37:27.464
with the cat, like, is that like,

00:37:27.644 --> 00:37:28.924
Sam: no, that's going
to get points for me.

00:37:28.974 --> 00:37:29.404
Ali: Yeah.

00:37:29.634 --> 00:37:31.874
I'm going to get, you know,
shit hung on me by Joe.

00:37:31.874 --> 00:37:32.154
Right.

00:37:32.214 --> 00:37:34.274
Whereas a very long time ago.

00:37:34.654 --> 00:37:39.364
I realized I no longer care if
people think I'm cool or not,

00:37:39.364 --> 00:37:40.524
because I'm absolutely not.

00:37:40.904 --> 00:37:44.704
And I just do not care if other
people think I'm not cool.

00:37:44.834 --> 00:37:46.894
That's just been a, yeah,
that's been a relief.

00:37:46.994 --> 00:37:49.744
And so that's why it's liberating.

00:37:49.744 --> 00:37:50.734
And so then ironically

00:37:50.734 --> 00:37:54.014
Joe: you started doing this podcast
and people write into us all the

00:37:54.144 --> 00:37:56.434
time and they're like fans of yours.

00:37:57.424 --> 00:38:00.624
You started getting a fan base long
after you stopped caring about.

00:38:00.904 --> 00:38:01.194
Yes.

00:38:01.304 --> 00:38:01.754
Being cool.

00:38:01.814 --> 00:38:02.044
Yeah.

00:38:02.044 --> 00:38:04.684
Which is a sweet irony, I think.

00:38:04.724 --> 00:38:10.194
Sam: The essence of cool is, like I
realised this a long time ago, but like

00:38:10.254 --> 00:38:13.074
looking at others before I realised
it, that it was true for me too.

00:38:13.554 --> 00:38:17.864
The coolest thing, why did
Hendrix or Dylan look so cool

00:38:17.894 --> 00:38:18.744
doing what they were doing?

00:38:19.904 --> 00:38:22.454
You know, and we can talk about the
accessories and some of the fashion

00:38:22.454 --> 00:38:26.384
choices and all of that, definitely
there's part of it, but it's, Imagine

00:38:26.384 --> 00:38:30.334
Hendrix just like dressed much more
ordinarily and the hair's not anything

00:38:30.344 --> 00:38:36.194
and like he would still rip yeah like the
the vibe would still be intense yeah or

00:38:36.194 --> 00:38:39.934
Ali: maybe even those choices of those
things were things he took joy from and

00:38:39.934 --> 00:38:43.599
pleasure from and just lent into that and
that then started And people could then

00:38:43.779 --> 00:38:45.459
see that and that's what became cool.

00:38:45.459 --> 00:38:47.889
And that's similarly like
with the tracksuits and stuff,

00:38:47.909 --> 00:38:49.519
because it is a bold choice.

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:49.579
It's

00:38:49.579 --> 00:38:50.859
Joe: doing it and doing it well.

00:38:50.869 --> 00:38:51.619
Exactly.

00:38:51.729 --> 00:38:56.049
Yeah, but the next phase I think that's
even cooler is to become more anonymous.

00:38:56.059 --> 00:38:59.339
So at the moment I've destroyed,
I've destroyed, deleted my

00:38:59.549 --> 00:39:00.769
Facebook and Instagram accounts.

00:39:00.769 --> 00:39:01.149
Yeah.

00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:03.629
And there's really nowhere
to post a picture of myself

00:39:03.729 --> 00:39:05.519
in a cool tracksuit, right?

00:39:05.929 --> 00:39:07.279
So it becomes more anonymous.

00:39:07.279 --> 00:39:09.609
But Friday night, I
was out on High Street.

00:39:09.994 --> 00:39:13.324
And someone came up and said they
really love my track suit and that's

00:39:13.324 --> 00:39:17.974
the only time Unless I go back on social
media that I'll get that feedback.

00:39:18.394 --> 00:39:20.154
But that means more anyway, doesn't it?

00:39:20.274 --> 00:39:24.054
Well, my teenage daughter and all her
friends think my tracksuits are cool.

00:39:24.254 --> 00:39:25.514
How cool is that?

00:39:26.184 --> 00:39:27.584
Fourteen year olds think you're cool.

00:39:27.984 --> 00:39:31.964
And they think it's cool that I have
a podcast and I'm like a cooler dad.

00:39:32.204 --> 00:39:33.454
Man, you are Shaquille O'Neal

00:39:33.454 --> 00:39:33.824
Sam: right now.

00:39:33.974 --> 00:39:35.464
Joe: But when I try and interact with.

00:39:35.514 --> 00:39:39.914
With the other parents from my kids
schools, I have like a meltdown,

00:39:40.294 --> 00:39:41.194
I can't interact with them.

00:39:41.244 --> 00:39:41.984
It's a minefield.

00:39:41.994 --> 00:39:43.644
I'm like, why are we talking like this?

00:39:43.924 --> 00:39:46.094
Why are we pretending that we're normal?

00:39:46.364 --> 00:39:47.674
And I can't do it.

00:39:47.774 --> 00:39:48.564
So I just Do you know what's

00:39:48.564 --> 00:39:48.974
Sam: fun though?

00:39:49.124 --> 00:39:49.364
I'd

00:39:49.364 --> 00:39:52.284
Joe: rather be cool to the 14
year old kids than get along

00:39:52.284 --> 00:39:53.144
with their fucking parents.

00:39:53.384 --> 00:39:54.084
Yeah, yeah, no, I

00:39:54.084 --> 00:39:58.400
Sam: know, and I know you don't mean
that in a bad way, but I'm sure they're

00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.484
Joe: great people, but I've
realized I'm going to get through

00:40:01.624 --> 00:40:04.204
both of their schooling without
knowing any of the other parents.

00:40:04.204 --> 00:40:04.534
I cannot

00:40:04.799 --> 00:40:08.399
Sam: Can I recommend though, there'll
always be one or two in the parent

00:40:08.399 --> 00:40:09.539
group, so you've got to imagine.

00:40:09.789 --> 00:40:13.899
Joe: I know, I don't mean, like, I'm
sure there are great parents, but in

00:40:13.899 --> 00:40:16.749
the context of, like, I, man, like.

00:40:16.809 --> 00:40:16.939
Just

00:40:16.939 --> 00:40:20.759
Sam: do the thing that I do which is wrong
so often, but so right so often, which

00:40:20.759 --> 00:40:26.044
is Everyone else, okay, not everyone,
but a lot of other people are feeling

00:40:26.044 --> 00:40:27.384
the exact same way as me right now.

00:40:27.384 --> 00:40:30.964
Now, of course, I've been so wrong about
that so many times, turns out I was the

00:40:30.964 --> 00:40:32.274
only person thinking and feeling it.

00:40:32.324 --> 00:40:33.084
Oh, okay.

00:40:33.384 --> 00:40:37.704
But on, I guarantee you amongst the
parents, there's at least one or two

00:40:37.704 --> 00:40:41.564
people that you would genuinely connect
with and that you could be real around.

00:40:41.914 --> 00:40:43.314
And how do you find out?

00:40:43.314 --> 00:40:44.709
We see you gave us a clue on that.

00:40:44.939 --> 00:40:48.829
To this, in the last episode, you
know, you do little tests on the text.

00:40:48.829 --> 00:40:49.979
How far can I go with this?

00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:54.769
You know, it's like, yeah, me too, a short
of, you know, I'm not going to take a shit

00:40:54.769 --> 00:40:58.459
in the middle of the function and then
see who still talks to me the next day.

00:40:58.669 --> 00:41:01.879
But I might push it just a little here
and there and see, you can just like,

00:41:02.069 --> 00:41:05.299
Ali: how honest am I going to
be about how my day's going?

00:41:05.419 --> 00:41:05.899
And you can just.

00:41:06.194 --> 00:41:08.354
That is the biggest test, and
you're like, you can do that.

00:41:08.354 --> 00:41:09.024
It's a fun game.

00:41:11.864 --> 00:41:12.364
I get along

00:41:12.364 --> 00:41:14.494
Joe: great with people at
work, but it's compulsory.

00:41:14.594 --> 00:41:15.364
There's nowhere else to go.

00:41:15.364 --> 00:41:16.814
I'm there 14 hours a day in my job.

00:41:16.814 --> 00:41:17.474
Okay, and so

00:41:17.474 --> 00:41:18.154
Sam: there's a clue there.

00:41:18.669 --> 00:41:20.179
Commitment is the key.

00:41:20.189 --> 00:41:20.249
It's not

00:41:20.249 --> 00:41:23.179
Joe: compulsory to be friends with
your fucking No, because you see people

00:41:23.179 --> 00:41:25.749
School kids, other parents or whatever.

00:41:25.789 --> 00:41:26.159
You see

00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.579
Sam: people opt out of that
at work all the time too.

00:41:28.919 --> 00:41:32.429
Which is truly missing out
on one of life's great joys,

00:41:32.759 --> 00:41:34.149
which is shooting the shit.

00:41:34.194 --> 00:41:36.384
With other peons on the company dime.

00:41:36.389 --> 00:41:36.479
Yeah.

00:41:36.479 --> 00:41:36.679
Yeah.

00:41:36.684 --> 00:41:36.924
Yeah.

00:41:36.954 --> 00:41:38.424
That is one of life's great toys.

00:41:38.424 --> 00:41:38.484
Yeah.

00:41:38.574 --> 00:41:39.594
And being in the is your

00:41:39.594 --> 00:41:41.334
Ali: collective, you know,
collective experience,

00:41:41.339 --> 00:41:42.684
experience of trauma , correct?

00:41:42.894 --> 00:41:43.584
That's what it is.

00:41:43.589 --> 00:41:43.644
Yeah.

00:41:43.644 --> 00:41:44.034
Being in the

00:41:44.034 --> 00:41:45.984
Sam: trenches with the other,
yeah, with the other peons.

00:41:45.984 --> 00:41:47.424
'
Joe: cause there's a solidarity there.

00:41:47.424 --> 00:41:47.844
I'm, I'm fine with that.

00:41:47.999 --> 00:41:48.834
I see them as it's the best, yeah.

00:41:48.839 --> 00:41:50.214
One's optional, one's compulsory.

00:41:50.214 --> 00:41:52.014
And once it's compulsory,
I'll make the best of it.

00:41:52.014 --> 00:41:54.204
But if it's optional,
I can opt the fuck out.

00:41:54.204 --> 00:41:56.514
So the clue is, yeah, not be
friendly to the other parents.

00:41:56.519 --> 00:41:56.679
That's,

00:41:56.679 --> 00:41:57.084
Sam: no, that's fair.

00:41:57.084 --> 00:41:58.254
I think that's a common response.

00:41:58.314 --> 00:41:58.524
Yeah.

00:41:58.584 --> 00:42:01.734
But I have, I guess a different
experience because for me it is

00:42:01.734 --> 00:42:05.792
compulsory, I guess, You know, I don't
want to get into why, but particularly

00:42:05.792 --> 00:42:09.722
it's just boring, but like, I do feel
the need not to keep up appearances,

00:42:09.732 --> 00:42:13.172
but to maintain some stocks and it's

00:42:13.462 --> 00:42:16.552
Ali: for the benefit of kids and
this and social things and making

00:42:16.552 --> 00:42:19.722
sure they're, you know, included or
that you're across stuff at school.

00:42:19.722 --> 00:42:21.672
Like there isn't, there's
an element of that.

00:42:21.992 --> 00:42:23.722
Sam: And to tell you the truth.

00:42:24.182 --> 00:42:24.432
Okay.

00:42:24.432 --> 00:42:25.172
So here's a little one.

00:42:25.242 --> 00:42:27.882
Um, I was feeling some FOMO
about not doing enough music.

00:42:28.172 --> 00:42:30.114
So, did you always want to be a rock star?

00:42:30.154 --> 00:42:31.174
If you could be anything?

00:42:31.184 --> 00:42:31.764
Oh, absolutely.

00:42:31.764 --> 00:42:36.284
And I thought if I couldn't be that, that
it would be like some writer or something.

00:42:36.284 --> 00:42:36.504
But,

00:42:36.514 --> 00:42:38.164
Joe: so that's a deep FOMO then.

00:42:38.234 --> 00:42:41.644
That's an existential, like my whole
life's purpose was to be a rock star.

00:42:41.694 --> 00:42:42.924
And now I'm missing out.

00:42:43.074 --> 00:42:43.224
Sam: Yeah.

00:42:43.224 --> 00:42:44.314
Long since let go of it though.

00:42:44.354 --> 00:42:48.074
Like when, but when I was 23, it was
closer to like a Bowie thing maybe, but

00:42:48.474 --> 00:42:52.554
Like, it moved on from Dylan, Young,
Hendrix, and then my culture heroes have

00:42:53.014 --> 00:42:54.294
changed a great deal over the years.

00:42:54.364 --> 00:42:56.084
Joe: Did you ever get
close to being a rockstar?

00:42:56.964 --> 00:42:58.604
Sam: Oh no, I was on occasion.

00:42:58.854 --> 00:42:59.174
Right.

00:42:59.414 --> 00:43:00.334
Like, I embodied it.

00:43:01.304 --> 00:43:06.194
Just, it wasn't thousands of people, it
was only a hundred or two hundred and

00:43:06.384 --> 00:43:12.294
occasionally I absolutely crushed it in
a very small room with 30 or 40 or 50.

00:43:12.294 --> 00:43:15.474
No one walked out of there thinking
that was not the gig to be at.

00:43:16.554 --> 00:43:20.334
So I can genuinely say I'd got
my mic drop moments and everyone

00:43:20.334 --> 00:43:21.474
was  in the palm of the hand.

00:43:21.524 --> 00:43:24.698
I got off once and There were these
two people who'd been particularly

00:43:24.698 --> 00:43:26.478
into it, but no one wasn't into it.

00:43:26.538 --> 00:43:28.448
And  they said to me, what are you doing?

00:43:28.468 --> 00:43:29.568
I'm like, oh, my time's up.

00:43:29.568 --> 00:43:29.958
And they're like.

00:43:31.198 --> 00:43:32.798
Your time's up when you say it is.

00:43:33.628 --> 00:43:36.408
And I'm like, holy shit,
you're absolutely right.

00:43:36.558 --> 00:43:38.678
And I just got right back
up there and carried on.

00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:43.488
And they were like, bro, we're in,
we're in the palm of your hand.

00:43:43.518 --> 00:43:44.878
Like, don't let go now.

00:43:44.918 --> 00:43:46.098
And I'm like, all right, all right.

00:43:47.368 --> 00:43:49.378
And, and I had nothing else prepared.

00:43:49.378 --> 00:43:50.508
So I had to dig deep.

00:43:51.088 --> 00:43:51.258
And to

00:43:51.258 --> 00:43:54.518
Joe: me, that's what life, that's
the best, that's the best of life.

00:43:54.578 --> 00:43:54.978
It is.

00:43:54.998 --> 00:43:55.438
The flow state.

00:43:55.748 --> 00:43:56.068
Exactly.

00:43:56.453 --> 00:43:58.923
That's the peak state, the flow
state, and it's neither Jomo

00:43:58.923 --> 00:44:00.963
nor Fomo, it's better than both.

00:44:01.353 --> 00:44:02.423
It's completely beyond it.

00:44:02.733 --> 00:44:06.533
But if we can't have that, and 99 percent
of the time, we're not going to have

00:44:06.533 --> 00:44:09.283
that, then let's try and have You're lucky

00:44:09.283 --> 00:44:12.583
Ali: if you get a few moments
in your lifetime of that, I

00:44:12.583 --> 00:44:13.993
reckon, it's really just moments.

00:44:13.993 --> 00:44:14.453
It's true.

00:44:14.663 --> 00:44:15.293
Sam: Yeah.

00:44:15.294 --> 00:44:19.263
You can't be too, you can't be too
greedy about it, and, and, but also

00:44:19.293 --> 00:44:23.133
you do, don't, don't be caught napping
when inspiration strikes, be ready

00:44:23.213 --> 00:44:23.443
Joe: yeah.

00:44:23.443 --> 00:44:24.263
And that's, yeah.

00:44:24.453 --> 00:44:27.593
Maybe that's what we need to watch
out for at our age is just completely

00:44:27.593 --> 00:44:30.863
sinking into Jomo and not going
for any of those peak experiences.

00:44:30.863 --> 00:44:34.553
Ali: Well, so that's, well, so that's
why, you know, you're like, oh, you still

00:44:34.553 --> 00:44:36.003
go out on dates or things like that.

00:44:36.003 --> 00:44:41.273
There is a, that is me consciously
not being complacent and just

00:44:41.273 --> 00:44:48.568
being complacent and just Becoming
a shut in can be my default.

00:44:48.578 --> 00:44:52.458
It's so easy to just to
isolate and be by myself.

00:44:52.458 --> 00:44:54.088
And I'm quite content doing that.

00:44:54.118 --> 00:44:58.778
And so there is a conscious effort of
like, no, I've got to continue to, yeah,

00:44:58.778 --> 00:45:00.558
meet people and do things and, and.

00:45:00.888 --> 00:45:01.078
Yeah.

00:45:01.078 --> 00:45:03.818
And, and, and continue, but that's
not just in a dating context, but

00:45:03.818 --> 00:45:06.668
also, yeah, continue to invest in
my friendships and things like, and

00:45:06.668 --> 00:45:10.068
the things that I'm interested in
that are not just done in isolation.

00:45:10.408 --> 00:45:15.518
So that's very much about building those
things into my life in a sustainable way.

00:45:15.558 --> 00:45:17.408
And like, and that's,
it's the thing, like.

00:45:17.848 --> 00:45:21.498
The balance was tipped so far in the
other direction when I was young that,

00:45:21.538 --> 00:45:22.808
cause I was so unaware of my needs.

00:45:22.808 --> 00:45:24.278
Sam: Oh, nothing you were
doing was sustainable.

00:45:24.288 --> 00:45:24.538
Yeah.

00:45:25.048 --> 00:45:28.288
Ali: Like I was so unaware of what
I needed and downtime and things

00:45:28.328 --> 00:45:30.748
like, just as an introverted person.

00:45:30.748 --> 00:45:34.475
And you know, I'd be out like
five, six nights a week easily.

00:45:34.665 --> 00:45:34.905
Yeah.

00:45:34.905 --> 00:45:35.195
And just

00:45:35.195 --> 00:45:36.275
Sam: spending energy.

00:45:36.275 --> 00:45:36.715
Yeah.

00:45:36.715 --> 00:45:37.535
Like currency you didn't have.

00:45:37.535 --> 00:45:37.625
Yeah,

00:45:37.865 --> 00:45:38.385
Ali: exactly.

00:45:38.385 --> 00:45:42.105
And then wondering why I'd
end up like in a very bad way,

00:45:42.615 --> 00:45:44.965
whereas now it's sort of so much.

00:45:44.965 --> 00:45:45.095
Yeah.

00:45:45.370 --> 00:45:50.090
Yeah, like I know I've got like one
date in me a week and maybe a social

00:45:50.090 --> 00:45:53.420
activity and the rest of the time
I actually, I need recharging time.

00:45:53.420 --> 00:45:57.940
And like last night was recharging time
and I needed that because I didn't get

00:45:57.940 --> 00:45:59.250
that last weekend cause I was away.

00:45:59.250 --> 00:46:01.170
So yeah, it's about, if you did

00:46:01.170 --> 00:46:04.560
Sam: more than one date, you'd be
missing out on other things that are

00:46:04.580 --> 00:46:06.450
more important than that extra date.

00:46:06.650 --> 00:46:07.240
Ali: Yeah, exactly.

00:46:07.240 --> 00:46:07.550
Yeah.

00:46:07.650 --> 00:46:11.200
So yeah, it's sort of finding the balance
that's right for you and your needs.

00:46:11.515 --> 00:46:15.315
So that you can, so yeah, you don't feel
like you are missing out on other things

00:46:15.705 --> 00:46:17.495
and you are also enjoying the thing.

00:46:17.495 --> 00:46:17.795
Yeah.

00:46:17.925 --> 00:46:19.895
The things that you,
you want and prioritize.

00:46:20.305 --> 00:46:20.495
Sam: Yeah.

00:46:20.495 --> 00:46:21.625
That's, that's exactly right.

00:46:21.655 --> 00:46:24.025
And then, so the key is that
what you said, what you want and

00:46:24.025 --> 00:46:27.515
what you prioritize, that's the
whole entire problem right there.

00:46:27.735 --> 00:46:30.705
It's like, well, I said this
in the, on the last step, like

00:46:30.905 --> 00:46:31.885
I didn't know what I wanted.

00:46:31.885 --> 00:46:33.675
I didn't know what was important to me.

00:46:33.675 --> 00:46:34.095
I didn't.

00:46:34.214 --> 00:46:36.984
because you raised existentialism we
didn't get to talk about it properly

00:46:37.164 --> 00:46:40.634
but that's been lurking underneath
the surface of this whole topic right

00:46:40.634 --> 00:46:43.888
here and the reason it came up with
attachment was well existentialism

00:46:43.888 --> 00:46:47.996
crosses over with it in that area of who
are we right are we the person in the

00:46:47.996 --> 00:46:52.463
world That we are projecting ourselves
to be out into the world or are we the

00:46:52.463 --> 00:46:54.033
person that other people think we are?

00:46:54.453 --> 00:46:57.753
And this is a problem that becomes
particularly acute in relationships

00:46:57.783 --> 00:47:01.633
because you can't maintain the illusion
of, so when you walk down the street,

00:47:02.103 --> 00:47:05.973
you can tell whatever story you want and
people can pick that story up and affirm

00:47:05.973 --> 00:47:09.413
it to you or they can not affirm it, but
they're going to keep that to themselves.

00:47:09.583 --> 00:47:10.593
You're not troubled by it.

00:47:10.813 --> 00:47:13.468
When you're in a relationship,
you go to project.

00:47:13.798 --> 00:47:17.408
And this, and then your girlfriend
doesn't pick up the projection that

00:47:17.408 --> 00:47:18.328
you're trying to put out there.

00:47:18.328 --> 00:47:20.298
It's like crushing, but you know, and

00:47:20.314 --> 00:47:23.304
Joe: It's the same if you post a photo
on Instagram, you're either going

00:47:23.304 --> 00:47:25.574
to get likes, no likes or comments.

00:47:25.634 --> 00:47:28.194
And the comments are never
going to be, you look like shit.

00:47:28.684 --> 00:47:31.974
Yeah, yeah, that's true, but
that's a complete, if you, yeah,

00:47:32.064 --> 00:47:35.034
that's not a way to perceive
what people really think of you.

00:47:35.204 --> 00:47:38.384
No, it could be a hundred people looked
at that photo and thought, what a wanker.

00:47:38.424 --> 00:47:39.564
And that's why you value

00:47:39.594 --> 00:47:40.334
Sam: the true friends.

00:47:40.334 --> 00:47:42.534
You can tell you don't say anything.

00:47:42.534 --> 00:47:43.314
That's exactly right.

00:47:43.314 --> 00:47:46.364
So do you want a hundred
bootlickers or one real friend?

00:47:46.384 --> 00:47:47.564
Like, it's such an easy question.

00:47:47.564 --> 00:47:47.834
Well, a

00:47:47.834 --> 00:47:49.024
Joe: Facebook.

00:47:49.529 --> 00:47:52.029
On high street once a month is telling
me I look good in my tracksuit.

00:47:52.069 --> 00:47:53.719
Well, that's, that
person's not a bootlicker.

00:47:53.779 --> 00:47:54.419
No, that's right.

00:47:55.469 --> 00:47:57.669
They haven't signed up to
follow me on Instagram.

00:47:58.149 --> 00:48:02.169
They've got no, I'm not begging for
them to tell me they like my fucking.

00:48:02.169 --> 00:48:03.779
Hair man, it's yours.

00:48:03.819 --> 00:48:04.199
Take it.

00:48:04.219 --> 00:48:05.499
Getting a compliment from

00:48:05.499 --> 00:48:06.419
Ali: a woman.

00:48:06.594 --> 00:48:10.704
Like out in a, like in a bar on
my outfit or my makeup or how

00:48:10.704 --> 00:48:12.874
I'm looking is the ultimate.

00:48:12.874 --> 00:48:15.744
Like I had someone scream out to
me when I was wearing a leopard

00:48:15.744 --> 00:48:19.074
print coat last year, like on the
road, like actually like, like

00:48:19.164 --> 00:48:22.374
yelled out to me to slow me down and
like, Oh my God, I love your coat.

00:48:22.374 --> 00:48:23.364
I'm like, I fucking love this coat.

00:48:23.374 --> 00:48:24.304
I want to be buried in this coat.

00:48:24.304 --> 00:48:29.064
But, and we had a chat and yeah,
like, it's just those compliments

00:48:29.064 --> 00:48:30.494
are just, Oh, they're the best.

00:48:30.804 --> 00:48:31.074
Usually a

00:48:31.074 --> 00:48:32.244
Sam: woman is not trying
to sleep with you.

00:48:32.244 --> 00:48:33.734
Now, if they were trying to
sleep with you, would the

00:48:33.734 --> 00:48:35.124
compliment land in the same way?

00:48:35.509 --> 00:48:35.999
Ali: Yes.

00:48:35.999 --> 00:48:36.969
Oh,

00:48:36.969 --> 00:48:37.939
Sam: wow.

00:48:37.939 --> 00:48:37.969
Okay.

00:48:37.979 --> 00:48:38.339
Yeah.

00:48:38.339 --> 00:48:39.104
Good to know.

00:48:39.104 --> 00:48:40.019
Oh, well, I think

00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:40.419
Joe: we should wrap

00:48:40.419 --> 00:48:41.009
Sam: it up guys.

00:48:41.579 --> 00:48:44.789
Oh, I just wanted to chase down the
existentialism just a tiny bit, which

00:48:44.789 --> 00:48:49.547
is like the, it's the getting more
comfortable with the responsibility of

00:48:49.547 --> 00:48:51.487
creating your own meaning basically.

00:48:51.487 --> 00:48:54.077
And it is a heavy responsibility
and having all that choice

00:48:54.087 --> 00:48:54.937
and , what do I want?

00:48:55.257 --> 00:48:56.547
What will I prioritize?

00:48:57.257 --> 00:48:58.157
Massive burdens.

00:48:58.417 --> 00:49:03.757
And in, like, rather than like actually
address those questions seriously, on

00:49:03.757 --> 00:49:07.327
a note, I'll just reach for a proxy
that the culture has offered me, which

00:49:07.327 --> 00:49:11.147
is going to a music festival as is
expected  yeah, no, no, fuck that.

00:49:11.187 --> 00:49:13.547
What do you, what do you want?

00:49:13.947 --> 00:49:15.937
And it's actually the
hardest question to answer.

00:49:16.557 --> 00:49:20.622
And, and, you know, Whether it's a really
good friendship or the, you know, a

00:49:20.622 --> 00:49:25.202
good intimate partnership, it forces you
constantly to confront your illusions

00:49:25.302 --> 00:49:27.682
and turn towards what do you really want.

00:49:27.862 --> 00:49:30.662
Joe: It's like, if, if you've got
clothes that you like wearing that

00:49:30.662 --> 00:49:35.282
you feel good in, don't just wear them
when you go on a date, wear them when

00:49:35.282 --> 00:49:36.272
you're at home watching the footy.

00:49:36.282 --> 00:49:37.142
And that's what I do.

00:49:37.222 --> 00:49:38.562
And it's dopamine dressing.

00:49:38.572 --> 00:49:39.252
Like it works.

00:49:39.872 --> 00:49:42.966
Ali: It's wearing your perfume every
day, not just when you're saving it.

00:49:42.966 --> 00:49:43.205
Yeah.

00:49:43.205 --> 00:49:43.683
And be

00:49:43.683 --> 00:49:46.272
Joe: seen a little, and be
perceived just a little bit.

00:49:47.392 --> 00:49:49.292
Um, it's, it's enticing.

00:49:49.292 --> 00:49:53.492
Whereas when I'm in just daggy
fucking, you know, middle aged

00:49:53.492 --> 00:49:56.352
dad clothes, I feel the opposite.

00:49:56.352 --> 00:49:58.192
I'm like, I don't want to leave the house.

00:49:58.222 --> 00:49:59.462
I don't want to get off the couch.

00:50:00.101 --> 00:50:02.721
Like, I'll go back to
that existential stuff.

00:50:02.721 --> 00:50:06.106
The moment I leave here, I'll be like,
okay, I was just hanging out with Sam

00:50:06.106 --> 00:50:08.066
and Ali, we've got a podcast in the can.

00:50:08.271 --> 00:50:08.531
Yeah.

00:50:09.111 --> 00:50:12.191
They, you know, they got their kids,
they go, I don't have my kids for a week,

00:50:12.231 --> 00:50:18.261
ah, right, ah, so where do I go now,
and, and, and what do I do, you know?

00:50:18.571 --> 00:50:19.071
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:19.451 --> 00:50:23.871
And it's just a con until the day I
die, it will be a not clear thing for

00:50:23.871 --> 00:50:26.041
me of what to fucking do with myself.

00:50:26.251 --> 00:50:28.991
Sam: I understand, I understand that
feeling that it'll never be clear to

00:50:29.121 --> 00:50:33.881
you, because I certainly do feel that
way sometimes now, but I, but I will

00:50:33.881 --> 00:50:36.461
say it's, Yeah, but you, guys like

00:50:36.461 --> 00:50:38.796
Joe: you, kill for that moment.

00:50:39.346 --> 00:50:39.906
Oh, for sure.

00:50:40.396 --> 00:50:44.116
Because you've got little kids, and
you just don't get many of those.

00:50:44.146 --> 00:50:45.776
Sam: Time's at a premium,
so you don't waste it.

00:50:45.776 --> 00:50:46.696
No, I understand that.

00:50:46.826 --> 00:50:47.846
Whereas, yeah.

00:50:47.886 --> 00:50:51.001
But believe me, there's times when
I'm like, Maybe I would be better off,

00:50:51.041 --> 00:50:54.025
not being married, or maybe I would
be better off, like, having more time

00:50:54.025 --> 00:50:58.005
to myself, you know, so, that's part
of the FOMO I've had to deal with, of

00:50:58.005 --> 00:51:01.075
like, oh, life would be better if I
had less responsibilities, and like,

00:51:01.085 --> 00:51:04.888
Joe: A lot of my loves have kind of
fallen away, so where Ali says that she

00:51:04.898 --> 00:51:08.963
has no problem filling up her time, My
love for cinema, I could leave here and

00:51:08.963 --> 00:51:11.473
go to the local cinema and watch a movie.

00:51:11.503 --> 00:51:13.493
You're just not the Scorsese
tragic you used to be.

00:51:13.523 --> 00:51:18.093
But I've lost the habit and I'm constantly
disappointed by what's in the cinema.

00:51:18.123 --> 00:51:18.943
Move on, move on.

00:51:18.983 --> 00:51:23.203
I don't go, I could go tonight and watch
a band and No, you're, no, move on.

00:51:23.453 --> 00:51:25.643
But like, I'm free.

00:51:25.673 --> 00:51:29.863
I have that much freedom that
I'm free to do those things.

00:51:29.873 --> 00:51:31.143
You're not beholden to any of that.

00:51:31.143 --> 00:51:36.063
But the joy, if you want to talk
about joy, the joy just, I just, I

00:51:36.063 --> 00:51:37.003
Sam: can't find it there.

00:51:37.033 --> 00:51:37.263
No, no, no.

00:51:37.603 --> 00:51:38.403
I'll tell you where it is.

00:51:38.683 --> 00:51:40.663
What do you take screenshots of, right?

00:51:40.663 --> 00:51:42.588
And send to, Ali and me.

00:51:43.268 --> 00:51:44.298
Things from books.

00:51:44.878 --> 00:51:47.718
And so, and like, I said this to
you when, when you got here before

00:51:47.718 --> 00:51:51.628
Ali and, and I was like, man, here's
a free podcast idea that would

00:51:51.908 --> 00:51:53.788
absolutely do good, great numbers.

00:51:53.828 --> 00:51:56.672
And I bet you it would
take those screenshots.

00:51:57.222 --> 00:51:59.532
It's a, it's a five to 10 minute format.

00:51:59.792 --> 00:52:01.182
It has to be short.

00:52:01.382 --> 00:52:04.242
I think you can do longer ones
now and then you're going to

00:52:04.242 --> 00:52:05.072
take one of those screenshots.

00:52:05.072 --> 00:52:08.042
You're going to read it out and you're
just going to go straight into the read.

00:52:08.342 --> 00:52:08.672
Right?

00:52:08.712 --> 00:52:10.852
You're not going to waste
time introducing anything.

00:52:11.402 --> 00:52:15.422
And then you're going to say what you
think about it, and maybe you'll offer

00:52:15.422 --> 00:52:20.812
a biographical note, or say a tiny bit
more about what book it came from, etc.

00:52:21.082 --> 00:52:25.522
But it's really just about the reflection
and You could offer that as a weekly

00:52:25.552 --> 00:52:31.462
or a daily and it would crush and you
would get so much fun out of doing it.

00:52:31.502 --> 00:52:33.502
Ali: And it's having a project.

00:52:33.512 --> 00:52:37.232
I was talking to somebody about this
a little while ago in that having a

00:52:37.232 --> 00:52:41.712
project with very tangible sort of
results that you can see and progress

00:52:41.992 --> 00:52:44.987
and have that as an ongoing thing in
your life is actually so rewarding.

00:52:44.997 --> 00:52:46.327
Super value projects,

00:52:46.327 --> 00:52:46.907
Sam: not pleasures.

00:52:47.067 --> 00:52:47.877
That's what I think about.

00:52:47.947 --> 00:52:48.697
And I, I

00:52:48.697 --> 00:52:53.077
Ali: realized I didn't have, I needed
another, I needed a project because of all

00:52:53.077 --> 00:52:56.247
the gardening and stuff that I just wasn't
doing because of my back and all that.

00:52:56.467 --> 00:52:56.727
So.

00:52:57.302 --> 00:53:01.322
Like it's a bit, I, I need to find
a new project that will fit into

00:53:01.322 --> 00:53:02.732
my life as it is at the moment.

00:53:02.812 --> 00:53:06.457
Sustainable, viable, yeah, and like,
so for this person it was building,

00:53:06.457 --> 00:53:10.344
a Lego Millennium, Millennium Falcon,
like, and I was like, that's a very cool

00:53:10.414 --> 00:53:14.789
little project to do every night, and
where, and so, Yeah, I, for me, it was,

00:53:14.889 --> 00:53:18.569
I've ordered a recipe book and bought a
recipe book and I'm going to methodically

00:53:18.569 --> 00:53:20.919
cook my way through every recipe.

00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:23.209
But it's, it's then
having something to, yeah.

00:53:23.209 --> 00:53:27.069
And so whether you're doing a podcast
and reviewing the little bits of, that

00:53:27.069 --> 00:53:30.769
you find interesting, it's like a project
that you can have as an ongoing thing.

00:53:30.849 --> 00:53:32.709
It's a process.

00:53:33.625 --> 00:53:35.715
Sam: when you find yourself
going, what's a pleasure that I

00:53:35.715 --> 00:53:37.155
can go and get myself right now?

00:53:37.995 --> 00:53:38.905
The addicts mentality.

00:53:38.935 --> 00:53:39.945
Oh, but I do

00:53:39.975 --> 00:53:40.295
Joe: have

00:53:40.385 --> 00:53:40.675
Sam: like

00:53:41.025 --> 00:53:41.435
Joe: replace

00:53:41.435 --> 00:53:41.895
Sam: pleasure

00:53:41.935 --> 00:53:42.665
Joe: with project.

00:53:42.685 --> 00:53:42.995
Sam: Yeah.

00:53:43.125 --> 00:53:43.415
Joe: Yeah.

00:53:43.585 --> 00:53:45.905
I kind of didn't want to talk about it
because who knows how long it lasts,

00:53:45.905 --> 00:53:47.705
but I am trying a diet at the moment.

00:53:47.765 --> 00:53:50.435
And so what I'll do is leave here.

00:53:50.605 --> 00:53:51.495
I know what I'm going to do.

00:53:52.015 --> 00:53:53.265
We're gonna leave here and follow you.

00:53:53.265 --> 00:53:55.245
We're gonna go buy a bunch of
fucking celery because that's the

00:53:55.245 --> 00:53:57.215
only thing I can eat on this diet.

00:53:57.635 --> 00:53:59.585
I'm gonna eat some sticks of
celery and I'm gonna start

00:53:59.585 --> 00:54:01.185
doing laps around Princes Park.

00:54:01.905 --> 00:54:05.425
But then the existential thoughts
will come in because I'm walking

00:54:05.425 --> 00:54:08.015
on my own and so that kind of
like, Oh, listen to a podcast.

00:54:08.025 --> 00:54:08.565
Who am I?

00:54:08.575 --> 00:54:09.455
What am I doing here?

00:54:09.755 --> 00:54:12.065
Stuff is always just beneath the surface.

00:54:12.515 --> 00:54:15.815
But then actually the other part, the
books I'm borrowing, which are spiritual

00:54:15.815 --> 00:54:21.135
texts that you've lent me, that's where I
find my things that aren't FOMO or JOMO.

00:54:21.645 --> 00:54:25.565
It's my 12 step spiritual practice,
which as we know, I'm restricted from

00:54:25.565 --> 00:54:27.005
what I can talk about on this show.

00:54:28.005 --> 00:54:30.285
But I'll probably go to a meeting tonight.

00:54:30.625 --> 00:54:33.205
I'll have spiritual texts I can read.

00:54:34.065 --> 00:54:37.595
It's not stuff that I particularly,
like someone like Ali, I don't

00:54:37.595 --> 00:54:41.525
expect her to understand necessarily
what I'm getting from that.

00:54:42.075 --> 00:54:44.375
Um, a lot of my friends
won't understand that.

00:54:44.385 --> 00:54:46.535
Sam, I think you would more so.

00:54:46.535 --> 00:54:47.365
I dig it.

00:54:47.445 --> 00:54:48.665
But it's a very personal.

00:54:48.675 --> 00:54:49.815
I'll be your first listener.

00:54:50.225 --> 00:54:55.930
It's, and all those screenshots you
talked about, uh, I Uh, from spiritual

00:54:55.930 --> 00:55:00.410
texts, 80 percent of them, so it's
like getting an autodidact spiritual

00:55:00.450 --> 00:55:03.640
education that aligns with the
spiritual experiences that I'm having.

00:55:04.450 --> 00:55:08.780
That's maybe the rest of my life in
terms of things that aren't FOMO or

00:55:08.780 --> 00:55:13.310
JOMO, things that are the essence of
what I want to be doing with my time.

00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:14.922
Sam: Yes, life affirming, purposeful.

00:55:14.922 --> 00:55:17.290
And this is the stuff.

00:55:17.290 --> 00:55:20.670
Joe: But it's not my style in a
lot of ways because it's quiet.

00:55:21.075 --> 00:55:21.715
It's content.

00:55:21.775 --> 00:55:23.405
It's the contemplative life.

00:55:23.585 --> 00:55:24.855
No, no, no, but he's the life of a con

00:55:25.765 --> 00:55:26.305
Sam: what's that word?

00:55:26.305 --> 00:55:27.105
Contemplative.

00:55:27.105 --> 00:55:27.275
Yeah.

00:55:28.115 --> 00:55:28.205
Contemplative.

00:55:28.205 --> 00:55:29.575
It's that life actually.

00:55:29.615 --> 00:55:29.985
Oh, sorry.

00:55:29.995 --> 00:55:30.745
It's so obvious to me though.

00:55:31.075 --> 00:55:32.265
You'll make it yours.

00:55:32.295 --> 00:55:33.745
You'll do it your way.

00:55:34.015 --> 00:55:36.435
There's so many pods out there.

00:55:36.465 --> 00:55:40.405
There's so many people out there doing
a similar thing, like blogging with a

00:55:40.405 --> 00:55:41.835
little quote and then reflecting on it.

00:55:42.185 --> 00:55:42.925
Like, or.

00:55:43.165 --> 00:55:46.085
Maybe they're doing it on camera or
maybe they're doing it on audio or

00:55:46.085 --> 00:55:49.075
maybe they're doing it in person or
they're writing books of their own.

00:55:49.465 --> 00:55:52.845
But the thing that would be you, you
would bring your own personality,

00:55:52.845 --> 00:55:53.775
your own reflection to this.

00:55:53.805 --> 00:55:57.365
You've got every right to do it,
but also no one else can do it

00:55:57.515 --> 00:55:58.725
the way you're going to do it.

00:55:58.925 --> 00:56:04.450
So in a way, All this work you've put
in, benefit yourself and rescue yourself

00:56:04.450 --> 00:56:11.406
from misery and torture, in a way you've
got just a small, small d duty to pass

00:56:11.406 --> 00:56:16.756
that on and help others along the way
because that's what, that's, that's

00:56:16.756 --> 00:56:20.356
what got me out of a pit was listening
to other people putting it together.

00:56:20.366 --> 00:56:21.871
I like doing it here with you guys.

00:56:22.321 --> 00:56:25.471
But I think a solo, little solo
mission and you do it with so

00:56:25.471 --> 00:56:27.691
much entertaining, you do it big.

00:56:27.701 --> 00:56:28.161
Do it big.

00:56:28.161 --> 00:56:29.491
You don't have to be the quiet.

00:56:29.971 --> 00:56:31.347
You don't have to be like, Mr.

00:56:31.347 --> 00:56:32.487
Chill, serene yogi.

00:56:32.487 --> 00:56:33.897
You can do it your way.

00:56:34.057 --> 00:56:38.757
Joe: It's think that there's a way
that what's going to give my life

00:56:38.757 --> 00:56:41.897
meaning is actually it's anonymous.

00:56:42.717 --> 00:56:43.887
It's anonymous.

00:56:43.907 --> 00:56:44.867
It's quiet.

00:56:44.887 --> 00:56:45.727
It's anonymous.

00:56:45.747 --> 00:56:46.167
It's

00:56:47.372 --> 00:56:47.792
Yeah,

00:56:47.822 --> 00:56:53.077
it's my spiritual life and it's actually
not a loud broadcasted thing necessarily.

00:56:53.087 --> 00:56:53.377
Sure.

00:56:53.517 --> 00:56:53.687
But

00:56:53.717 --> 00:56:55.007
Sam: each, each one teach one.

00:56:55.677 --> 00:56:57.817
And as you learn, so you teach.

00:56:57.827 --> 00:57:01.507
Well, I'll have my kids and
other people in addiction and

00:57:01.517 --> 00:57:05.347
Ali: those interpersonal sort of
experiences where, yeah, where

00:57:05.347 --> 00:57:11.427
you, you are sharing your wisdom
and, or providing advice or those,

00:57:11.817 --> 00:57:14.827
those give my life so much meaning.

00:57:14.827 --> 00:57:16.637
And I have really.

00:57:17.597 --> 00:57:22.747
Yeah, I have really a close, very
small, but close network of friends

00:57:22.747 --> 00:57:25.317
that I feel like I'm able to give that.

00:57:25.677 --> 00:57:26.907
And it's, it's reciprocated.

00:57:26.907 --> 00:57:29.857
It's obviously, but those, I think,
like you said, it's an anonymous thing.

00:57:29.857 --> 00:57:32.437
It's not going to be something
that's ever anybody else would,

00:57:32.597 --> 00:57:33.517
but it doesn't make it any less

00:57:33.677 --> 00:57:34.227
Joe: meaningful.

00:57:34.237 --> 00:57:35.007
But this isn't anonymous.

00:57:35.007 --> 00:57:36.247
This is us three.

00:57:37.007 --> 00:57:39.047
We're honing your skills.

00:57:39.087 --> 00:57:42.247
The reason you joined the show
is because you're so good.

00:57:42.837 --> 00:57:46.897
at engaging with ideas and
having some wisdom, right?

00:57:47.427 --> 00:57:51.017
So now you're putting it out there to the
entire world that, that, that little gift

00:57:51.017 --> 00:57:54.967
that you had between you and a few friends
of being a good person to go to if you

00:57:54.967 --> 00:57:59.267
had a breakup or being a good person to go
to if something's happened with your kids

00:57:59.267 --> 00:58:00.787
and you're not sure what to do about it.

00:58:01.097 --> 00:58:05.977
Now you are sharing that gift with the,
there's no limit on who can listen to it.

00:58:06.427 --> 00:58:09.707
There's a limit on who's
listening to it, but there is

00:58:09.707 --> 00:58:11.947
actually no limit on who could.

00:58:12.042 --> 00:58:15.012
Find and access this information
once we put it out there, right?

00:58:15.012 --> 00:58:15.132
But I

00:58:15.192 --> 00:58:17.302
Ali: don't find it any, like, yet.

00:58:17.392 --> 00:58:18.452
What I'm saying is that

00:58:18.452 --> 00:58:23.102
Joe: maybe I can be loud tracksuit
guy on the exterior, but the real

00:58:23.102 --> 00:58:26.232
meaning, the stuff that really is
going to fill up my cup, it might be

00:58:26.232 --> 00:58:27.662
a lot quieter and more contemplative.

00:58:28.732 --> 00:58:29.462
I can't say that word.

00:58:30.342 --> 00:58:30.762
Contemplative.

00:58:30.812 --> 00:58:31.362
Contemplative, yeah.

00:58:31.432 --> 00:58:34.742
So it's just, look, it's
all, it's all unknown.

00:58:34.782 --> 00:58:38.772
And like, whether you, Sam, find
a quieter way to be a rock star

00:58:38.772 --> 00:58:40.842
or start playing a bit of music.

00:58:41.287 --> 00:58:42.997
Again and getting out there and I've

00:58:42.997 --> 00:58:44.227
Sam: joined the parents band.

00:58:44.837 --> 00:58:45.797
Joe: Oh, there's a parents band?

00:58:46.247 --> 00:58:46.277
Mm.

00:58:46.337 --> 00:58:46.697
Yeah.

00:58:46.697 --> 00:58:46.937
Nice.

00:58:46.937 --> 00:58:47.622
So like that

00:58:48.772 --> 00:58:49.982
It's been, yeah, look, it's actually fine.

00:58:49.982 --> 00:58:50.807
I think we should wrap it up.

00:58:50.807 --> 00:58:53.237
But it's been an interesting chat
'cause it's made me think about.

00:58:53.897 --> 00:58:57.317
I think Jomo is a fantastic
way to deal with fomo.

00:58:57.647 --> 00:58:58.067
Yes.

00:58:58.127 --> 00:59:02.827
And next time I'm watching the footy at
home, instead of being at a gig, I'll

00:59:03.067 --> 00:59:04.987
once again think, ah, this is Jomo.

00:59:05.317 --> 00:59:06.217
Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:06.222 --> 00:59:10.337
But there's something else which
is doing the thing that your heart

00:59:10.337 --> 00:59:12.397
really calls to your heart, you know?

00:59:12.427 --> 00:59:14.347
And that's neither Jomo, no phone.

00:59:14.347 --> 00:59:15.037
Well, that's what I'm saying.

00:59:15.037 --> 00:59:16.897
Sam: That's the, that's
the cure being in the zone.

00:59:16.927 --> 00:59:17.017
Yeah.

00:59:17.017 --> 00:59:17.677
That's the cure.

00:59:17.677 --> 00:59:18.337
And, yeah.

00:59:18.337 --> 00:59:18.637
Yeah.

00:59:18.987 --> 00:59:19.557
Go on Ally.

00:59:19.967 --> 00:59:21.617
Ali: No, no, I was just
gonna say it's that balance.

00:59:21.622 --> 00:59:21.797
Yeah.

00:59:21.802 --> 00:59:21.952
Like if.

00:59:23.122 --> 00:59:28.612
But having, yeah, it cannot be all
Jomo and isolating, nor can it be

00:59:28.622 --> 00:59:30.512
like FOMO and feeling left out.

00:59:30.512 --> 00:59:33.802
It's, it's having a balance of
a little bit of everything that

00:59:33.802 --> 00:59:36.412
pushes you to do some things also.

00:59:36.792 --> 00:59:38.312
But none of us are saying we need

00:59:38.312 --> 00:59:40.712
Joe: to recapture the
excitement of our 20s.

00:59:41.022 --> 00:59:43.835
And no one needs to go to a
music festival and be in the

00:59:43.835 --> 00:59:45.782
mud on drags, like, yeah, like,

00:59:46.062 --> 00:59:46.582
Ali: like it's okay.

00:59:46.592 --> 00:59:49.752
Like you might, like I said, I, for
me, Blondie was always on my bucket

00:59:49.752 --> 00:59:50.802
list and I'm like, you know what?

00:59:50.812 --> 00:59:54.032
I am going to make the exception and
I'm going to go because I, I, I thought

00:59:54.052 --> 00:59:57.892
my dream was to be Clem Burke when I
was like 19, be the next Clem Burke.

00:59:58.132 --> 01:00:01.902
So I'm going to be able to see him play
the drums and it's going to be great.

01:00:01.942 --> 01:00:06.162
Like that's, whereas, but
yeah, whether But I'm not gonna

01:00:06.162 --> 01:00:07.212
go to every music festival.

01:00:07.212 --> 01:00:10.472
I'm not gonna go every Like, that's
what I, yeah, would have spent all of my

01:00:10.472 --> 01:00:13.112
money on when I was younger, was going
out to those things and gigs and stuff.

01:00:13.312 --> 01:00:17.377
Whereas now it's just like, no, I'm gonna
Just save it for the, yeah, push myself

01:00:17.377 --> 01:00:21.247
for the, make the exceptions, but then
also, yeah, like find the pleasure in

01:00:21.247 --> 01:00:22.317
listening to it at home with the cat.

01:00:22.317 --> 01:00:27.257
Sam: Mega, mega conscious decision, but
also truth be told, it's not a substitute.

01:00:27.327 --> 01:00:32.127
It is a peak experience to be
alone in a room with, and you've

01:00:32.137 --> 01:00:35.267
chosen the exact song and you've
played it at the exact volume.

01:00:35.377 --> 01:00:35.857
And.

01:00:36.227 --> 01:00:37.750
Ali: Ear bleedingly loud.

01:00:37.750 --> 01:00:38.097
And I'm

01:00:38.097 --> 01:00:40.617
Sam: jumping up and down or
I'm moving in a strange way and

01:00:40.667 --> 01:00:41.747
no one needs to know about it.

01:00:41.967 --> 01:00:43.127
And it's for me only.

01:00:43.417 --> 01:00:44.397
It's me and the cat.

01:00:44.457 --> 01:00:45.527
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:45.527 --> 01:00:45.807
That's right.

01:00:46.537 --> 01:00:49.227
And it's like, that was always
more fun than the other stuff.

01:00:49.537 --> 01:00:53.377
Like, that was actually where it was at
and beating that at a concert was going

01:00:53.377 --> 01:00:57.637
to be impossible because I don't feel
like I can be myself in that context.

01:00:58.017 --> 01:01:00.867
I'm not allowed to enjoy it the
way I want to enjoy it without

01:01:00.907 --> 01:01:01.617
pissing other people off.

01:01:01.627 --> 01:01:04.657
Ali: There's a silliness and
playfulness that you get.

01:01:05.002 --> 01:01:06.082
In isolation.

01:01:06.112 --> 01:01:06.262
Yeah.

01:01:06.532 --> 01:01:07.642
Because there's no judgment.

01:01:07.702 --> 01:01:08.092
That's right.

01:01:08.092 --> 01:01:08.332
Yeah.

01:01:08.347 --> 01:01:11.662
Except the, except the cat maybe judging
me, but like she's definitely is.

01:01:11.662 --> 01:01:13.612
But yeah, there it, there is.

01:01:13.822 --> 01:01:14.032
Yeah.

01:01:14.032 --> 01:01:16.452
It's liberating is what it is.

01:01:16.482 --> 01:01:16.842
Sam: Yeah.

01:01:17.052 --> 01:01:18.162
Alright, let's go guys.

01:01:18.162 --> 01:01:18.163
And.

01:01:18.992 --> 01:01:22.022
Yeah, let's, let's, I had another
thought for both of you though.

01:01:22.022 --> 01:01:23.992
You don't have to go home,
but you can't stay here.

01:01:24.032 --> 01:01:26.952
No, look, I'm sorry to do this to
you, Joe, but Ali, the other reason

01:01:26.952 --> 01:01:30.622
you're on this show is because you felt
the calling to do it, and it was the

01:01:30.622 --> 01:01:33.142
right call, and you listened to it.

01:01:33.261 --> 01:01:34.291
All right, I'm going to do the thing.

01:01:34.341 --> 01:01:39.001
And Joe, your show, where you read quotes
and then just do a quiet reflection on the

01:01:39.001 --> 01:01:40.991
Joe: You're the one who owns
the means of production, Sam.

01:01:40.991 --> 01:01:42.481
I don't actually have a microphone, so.

01:01:42.631 --> 01:01:43.301
Sam: Oh, okay.

01:01:43.341 --> 01:01:43.471
All right.

01:01:43.611 --> 01:01:44.641
Ali: You could probably
do it on your phone.

01:01:44.641 --> 01:01:45.881
It's so Let's sort it.

01:01:45.921 --> 01:01:46.081
Sam: Yeah.

01:01:46.321 --> 01:01:47.081
We'll get something sorted.

01:01:47.251 --> 01:01:47.521
Yeah.

01:01:47.831 --> 01:01:48.821
I'm the first listener.

01:01:49.071 --> 01:01:49.431
All right.

01:01:49.671 --> 01:01:50.371
Bye, everyone.

01:01:52.311 --> 01:01:53.521
Joe: Jomo and Fomo.

01:01:53.521 --> 01:01:56.501
That's been another two
of the 10, 000 things.

01:01:56.561 --> 01:01:56.641
I

01:01:56.641 --> 01:01:56.871
Sam: think we

01:01:56.871 --> 01:01:57.821
Joe: took them down hard.

01:01:59.611 --> 01:02:00.101
Ali: See ya.

01:02:00.491 --> 01:02:00.721
See ya.