Welcome to the Love, Sex and Leadership podcast where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive and heart centered leader. So welcome everyone to Love, Sex and Leadership. Very excited to have my guest Lee Bocom on the show today who is really a, a marriage specialist. So those of you who are having challenges or wanting to up level in your marriage, be sure to listen in this and just really deepening in your relationship journey. He's been a man at this for many, many years and very excited to see what he, what he brings to, to our conversation today. Welcome to the show. Lee Aaron, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So you know those listeners that don't know you, maybe just share a little bit about yourself and your background and you know what got to helping people with marriage. Like what's the big why for you in all of this? So I knew I wanted to be a therapist early on in college. I recognized that was what I did all along. People came to me as a confidant and so I thought, you know, that's kind of my natural inkling. And so I followed that with graduate training. And as I went into that I was exposed to different ways of doing therapy and really focused a lot on marriage and family systems, the systems approach to understanding how people are operating. And so that, that pushed me in that level. And looking back, the reason for that is I watched the damage of broken marriages in my extended family. My parents are in still a loving relationship in their 80s. My grandparents had great relationships. But I have an uncle who, who five or six divorces, I'm not sure, we kind of lost track. And two aunts that went through several different marriages and relationships. And I watched the devastation of when they now they not only were they in broken relationships, but explosively broken relationships. And so my question was how can we help people with that? So that ended up being my kind of my specialization. And then I became somewhat disenchanted with the whole marital therapy world. And even though I was trained as that and worked as that, I realized what I was really doing was coaching. And so right after I finished my PhD, I did training as a, as a coach. And that always was much more my home in how I worked. And so then I finally I call myself a recovering therapist because I now will say I truly am doing coaching and not therapy. And it's just me because I wanted to find the most effective ways of helping people find a Loving, connected relationship that would sustain them and realize that therapy wasn't doing that for people. Yeah, great. I love that you bring this distinction in because I've been working as a coach for now, 18, 19 years, and have a background in psychology, and I've done a lot of programs that, you know, my deem towards being a therapist. But what would you identify as a differentiation between therapists and coaches? Because this is terms that get thrown around a lot in our world today, and I find people wanting to find that distinction. So what would that distinction be to you? So let me. Let me talk a broad distinction, and I'll tell you where I got disenchanted. Sure. So the broad distinction. And this is very broad. This is. There is a gray space between these, I think. But in many ways, therapy spends a lot of time looking back at what's wrong. And coaching is much more about looking forward at what can we build from here? Here we are. So that, to me is a structural difference. I'm not saying that therapy is never looking forward and coaching is never looking backward, but if you look at the crossover, their realms tend to be therapy in the past, coaching in the where can we go from here? Particularly for me, my problem was watching what was going on in the therapy world. So little dirty secret of marital therapy is the studies on marital therapy showing effectiveness or lack thereof go something like this. So let's say you go to a doctor and the doctor says, hey, I think you need this procedure. I've got to tell you, 50% of the people who have this procedure die, and only about 10 or 15% find that it helped them at all. And so shall we do that procedure? You're probably going to go, yeah, I don't think I'm going to sign up for that. But that's the statistics for marriage therapy. About 50% of couples who go to therapy end up divorced, and only 10 to 15% say that it helped them. Now, for lots of people, they've said it to me, well, it helped us. Great. That's an anecdote. Right. But statistically speaking, it's not proven itself to be effective. And I think that's for three clues that we can look at. One is that therapists who are doing marital therapy often aren't trained as marital therapists. They don't have to be. That's not a requirement. If they are licensed as a therapist, they can choose who to see, and they don't have to have training in that. So many realized that they had people come into their office asking for Marital therapy and said, okay, I'm a marital therapist. But they don't have a free framework for that. They don't have that. I talked about systems earlier. They don't have that. Understanding that what they're really looking at is the relationship. They end up looking at two individuals in their office and trying to have two clients in their office, and that just doesn't work. Behind that is also a belief built into therapists that they need to be neutral. And while that is important for individual work, to be able to take on what your, your client has, it's not helpful when people are coming in going, our marriage is broken, and we don't know what to do. They actually need somebody who's on the side of the relationship to see what can happen and who are willing to kind of point the direction where they might be stuck. So that's an orientation of the therapist that ends up being a problem. The second piece of that is that the focus in marital therapy has often been reduced to communication. And I think that is a, a big miss. That is not the root cause of marital problems. And we can talk about that once I get to this other piece. It's not the root cause, it's a symptom. And so then there's the other piece, which is that marital therapy, by definition requires the two people to be in the office, the spouses to be in the office. And many times I watch one person drag the other person into an office hoping that the therapist is going to convince that other person to work on it. Better come with me. That's not how. That's not how humans do it. Right? I mean, if someone tells you and pulls you in and says, you need to be convinced, you're going to be going, let me defend myself. And so they lock in on the, no, this won't work. And so it polarizes rather than brings them together. What I like about coaching is you can coach one person to change, make changes within the relationship. You can't do that in marital therapy by definition. So those three pieces really fit together in limiting what the capacity of marriage therapy is in making a difference long term. Yeah, beautiful. I, you know, the, the distinction. I feel like in this place where couples, you know, I see that all the time, a couple will reach out to me and say, well, I really want to do, you know, some coaching and some therapy, and I'll have it. I'm like, well, is your partner on board as well? Is there, Is there a desire there? Um, and, and in that for you, where do you Feel like was the, the big disenchanting moment, like where was the place where you recognize. Yeah, I like this. But actually my, my heart feels more aligned in the coaching side. Yeah. So it really was during my training when I was looking around going, why is this not working? Why is my work with these couples not doing what I think it should? And why is it true with the people around me, my cohorts around me, whether they were the supervisors or my colleagues, nobody was having this great success and that, that was it for me. I mean I, I will say I, I have a somewhat contrarian perspective anyway on things. I was arguing with professors in the therapy world and started raising questions from the beginning of my training anyway, so already I was already going, okay, are we, I mean, is therapy a healthy place for us to be? Or maybe we need to look at this systemically. So I was already there in the questioning mode, but just staring around going, wait, I've got a supervisor who's had four marriages and I don't have but one supervisor who was in their first marriage. So what's wrong with this picture? Why are you trying to bring in this perspective when you're not sure how it works yourself? Plus I'm just watching in case study after case study, people having bad results. And that just disenchanted me for all I was doing. I was in the middle of my dissertation writing it. I remember the moment because my wife was going, what are you going to do? And I was reading an article in a magazine about life coaching. This was back in, been about 95, so early on in the professional coaching world there were just a few and they were talking about this brand new profession. And I was reading the article and I turned to my wife. Now we didn't have, it was, we were in a tiny little house and my office was at one end, right past where the couch was, where our TV was and where our kids were playing. And I had books stacked everywhere for my dissertation. And I turned around, I said, this is what I do. And she said, you're at the end of your dissertation, you're at the end of your PhD. What are you going to do? And I said, well, I don't think that's been a waste, but it's clarified. And I, before I even got my degree, I'd already enrolled in a three year coach training program because I realized that was where I saw the future, where I saw where I needed to go. So disenchantment was actually in the midst of training. Right? Right when it started. Yeah. I mean, for me, I remember when I was quite heavily in my stud. I mean, I feel like I'm always studying. But now through the years, I've had quite a few therapists that have come to me for coaching. And, you know, I often found when I was researching, because I looked a lot at wanting to do a PhD and go down that route. And then I kept finding therapists and marriage and family therapists and people that I always felt like were really good at understanding concepts, but their lives were dictating different things. I'm not saying coaches that, but there's often more continuity. Whereas I find in the typical therapy route, it's easier to just stand on the, you know, sit on the chair and not necessarily have a lot life that's congruent to what it is that you're providing support for, for people. It's like a, you know, marriage family therapist who's been divorced multiple times and doesn't have a healthy relationship. There's a discontinuity there. Yes. Yeah. Well, and. And that's. I've had lots of therapists come through my program going, why weren't they teaching this to us, Us in grad school? And my question is that, why? Why is that? And I think it's b. It's built into some presuppositions that went into the training. Many times I watch us default to this whole communication theory. So let me tell you what I believe happens in marriage, where the problem starts in a marriage and then we can build from there and we can see why communication isn't the answer and why when they come to your office and say, will teach me communication skills, it's not going to be helpful. My response to that is, all I'm doing is teaching you to fight better. If I teach you communication skills, and that's it. It's just raw because they're delivery devices. So here's where I watch this happen. People fall in love. They put all this energy into this relationship. You know, you're, you're. Everything is focused here. I interviewed Gary Chapman, who's the love language guy. And I'm like, you know, the thing is at the beginning of relationship, you're like speaking, you're yelling all five love languages because you're trying so to connect with this person, right, and build this relationship and all that energy goes in. And so why do we have a problem down the road? It's because at some point you say, okay, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. And they believe that they have It. So I don't know many people who don't know the statistics about divorce. I mean, I don't talk to them. Maybe they're out there who just don't know that it's a little better than 50% chance of succeeding. But let's say roughly, coin toss. And so for years in my office, I had couples who were getting married. One of seven places in town, seven different places of worship in town had to come to my office for three sessions to get my signature to get married. That was the deal. And so I heard the story over and over, and every one of them was like, yeah, we got this beat. You know, we really do love each other. We're. We're not like these other people who thought they were in love. And so they think they've already beat the statistic going into it. And I'm like, well, here's my card. You know, if you have a problem, come see me. And. And they would come. And the nice thing about those sessions, it was not because they bought into me saying, here's what you need to do, because I knew that. I knew that wasn't happening. I built a relationship, and they would come back early on in a crisis rather than waiting for it to be really bad. And so that was the power of those sessions. And that's about it. Because they already believe they had it. So they get married. Short little service that marks that differentiation line, right? And then after that, they go, okay, well, we gotta get on with life. And so they do what I call hitting the pause button. And they believe that they will come back to the relationship and go back to that loving point after they take care of these other things. So kids and jobs are two big ones, but it could be aging parents, it could be activities, sports, friend groups, travel, hobbies, all these other things that are vying for attention now that they think they've got this taken care of. You know, we've. We now can do that. Put our relationship in suspended animation and then revive it at some point when we are at this place, the problem is it keeps creeping out. You know, so after the kids are in diapers or out of diapers or after they're in school and after they're in high school and after they're out of high school, after. Out of college, after they. The grandkids a little. I mean, it just continues to build. Or after my career is here. Oh, I meant here. I met here. When we retire, you know, we'll get back to us. And. And the reason is because once you hit pause, you get into habits of being paused. You break the connection habit. And what they don't realize is there isn't any way to suspend a relationship. It's either growing and expanding or it's shrinking and dying. And so when you hit the pause button, you're shrinking it. You're. You're letting it fall apart and you don't realize it. So the pause button is the start of it. Everything else rolls out of that. When I hear people say we have communication problems, I mean, as I've observed it, they really don't. I mean, I would. They would come to my office and say, teach us communication skills. And I would sit there for 25, 30, 35 minutes. And at the end of that, I would say, you know what? I've understood every single word out of each of your mouths. And you have too. Both of you have understood each other. So it's not a communication problem. It's what you're communicating. And that disconnection is what influences the communication. Communication is just a way of getting data across from one place to another. And so if the data is coming through connection, that's one thing. If it's coming through disconnection and it ends up being about our daily routine, what are the kids doing, what do we have to do around the house, those kinds of things. It's not really nurturing the connection. And so as the connection wanes, they get into more trouble, and then they start having the struggles and that they think are the cause of their problem. And they're just the symptoms. I'd love to speak out. One of the problems I see, it's quite strong. And those. That's the sexless marriages that end up happening. We're in this, you know, they've hit the pause button and that now they're just kind of two friends caretaking children and then caretaking life, etc. Do you think, like, people can be happily married and not be making love and having sex? What is your professional opinion on this? Because I see a lot of people not having, like, very good lovemaking and a lot of issues because of that. Where's your. Your thought on this topic? Yeah. So, I mean, that's multifaceted. So are there couples who are completely happy with each other, connected in other ways, and they don't have sex? Yes. Is that the general population? No, because that is such an intimate piece of connection. So I see there are these three levels of connection. There's the physical, and sex is a piece of that. But it's not the only piece, in fact, sex doesn't work real well if the only place you're connecting is sex. That usually is just, you know, it's hard to be that close to somebody when you're not feeling connected to them in other ways. So that's a piece of it. But it's also any loving touch, hugs, kisses, pats, hold holding hands, you know, closeness to each other, cuddling, those are all in that arena. Sex is just about as close as you can be physically to somebody. And if you're, if it's not nurtured by connection, it's going to feel very mechanical and a very much a what am I getting out of this versus what are you getting out of this? Right, so that, that ends up being a tug of war match. But that's physical connection and that's, that's non verbal. So we'll go up one layer to non verbal and verbal, which is emotional connection. Emotional connection is the feeling of being gotten. Like, you understand me? You. We get each other and we feel supported by each other. And that is where it's not just, it's not entirely verbal. Like if you're talking to me just as we are right now and you're going, there's not a lot of verbal to that. But I can see that there's a connection there, right? That there's something you understand, we get each other. And then when you're talking about your rough day at work and your spouse is going, oh, wow, that sounds really hard, or a good day at work, oh, that's really exciting. Right? You're. That's verbal and it's an expression of, wow, we're in this together. We get each other and we support each other. So that's non verbal and verbal. Then there's this other layer which is the spiritual connection. And whenever I say that, people are like, oh, you mean religion knowing. Yes, that's not all of it, but if there is a religious component to their belief system, sure, talking about what's important about that is important. But talking about what's important is that spiritual connection. What you dream about, where you want to go in life, that's a deeper connection. When I was talking with those couples before they got married, they always took me back to a conversation that almost always started kind of late in the evening and went until the early morning. When they were talking about the family they had, you know, their hopes and dreams for where they'll get to their fears, all of that deep stuff, that spiritual connection, they just thought it was the emotional Connection. And that's our deep values. You know, what's most important to us, what we most dream about, what we most fear. That is that I can remember when I had that with my, at that point, girlfriend. And that for many people is that moment of falling in love and going, we have something. We're on a natural course together, a trajectory that matches. And so that piece is the one that often people don't recognize. And therefore it gets disconnected. And yet it's the deeper, deepest level of that. And because people don't talk about it, they assume that they're on that same place and they're not. But when you're disconnected in one area, it flows through all of those areas. If. If they are not connected physically, it's going to be hard for those other pieces. If they're not connected spiritually, it's gonna be hard for the other piece. If they're not connect emotionally, it's gonna be hard for those other pieces. And the problem is this. When you hit the pause button, all those levels end up being the disconnects being pushed down here. And where do you feel like the place arrives where there's just actual lack of compatibility. Like, I see some people, especially in, you know, I'm moving in a lot of, you could say more spiritual or tantric world. And I see people come together and almost falling in love with the potential of what can be, rather than actually looking at the simple compatibility factors. So have you had maybe couples that have come to you and there's just almost a recognition that you're actually not compatible? There's certain pieces that aren't meeting in each other's lives. Or are you more of a mindset of there's always a way to sort of make it work. What's your thoughts on this? I don't. I'm not one that thinks that you stay together at any cost. I see too many places where it's so broken. And then the question is, how do we resolve that? Right? How do we deal with that? Because a lot of times the relationship can't continue, but they still have a relationship because they have kids and whatever else. So resolving those issues, A, for co parenting and B, because if we don't, we drag those into the next relationship, I think is very important for couples to do. But so to your question of compatibility, you know, at least the research I've seen has never been able to find A, this is why people are compatible. The compatibility tests don't seem to hold a lot of bearing. I want to get to an exception or an exception in a minute. But let me go through this because, you know, we, we have the birds of a feather flock together and opposites attract. You know, we have these non. You can't even hold those two together. And I've seen people who are, I'm sitting there going, okay, opposites attract on these two. These two, while they are a match, you know, they're the same. My wife and I have a very similar psychological profile when we look at testing. And, and then we have friends who are very opposite, you know, introvert, extrovert or whatever. How they, they see it though, their pieces. And yet they have core values that match their, their deepest core values still are there, which is where I think you have a real problem if somebody has a true mismatch in core values. So, and it's pretty, it's usually pretty evident when they start talking about core values that there is a complete mismatch. And I'm not talking about just minor issues like the real core value. So years ago I had a couple who came to my office and he was like, I think that I need another spouse. And his wife was like, I am all about monogamy. And I'm like, this is not a compatible. That's impossible. Right? You can't do that. So those pieces are. There's a no way. And then there are the situations where it's so broken. There's not going to be a way. Once they have cut off connection entirely and have found that connection elsewhere. And I don't mean just an affair, but including that sometimes it's hard because their, their hope has shifted to outside of the relationship. I've told many people I would rather your spouse be hopeless than to be hopeful for something else because they're hopelessness. At least we can see if we can pull it back to hope in this relationship. But if they have established hope somewhere else, then the other pieces are very difficult to turn around. Yeah, the lack of compatibility. I see sometimes where, you know, one wants to have children and one doesn't, and it's just like two beings not possible, trying to coexist together. And that was always my question early on when I was talking with couples. I'm like, well, let's talk kids. Not that you have control over that, but let's talk about your intentions. And you know, that was one of the things I said is you've got to have some agreement on if and when and how many. Those three things, whether they're possible or not. You at least need to think from the outset, because that is going to start molding how you do your life. If you both are going, no kids, never, you create a life around that. If one is going, I want a kid in nine months, that's a whole different framework. If the other's going, yeah, I want a kid, but maybe, you know, six years from now, that's an incompatibility that they have to at least confront and decide on. And many times they would say, well, we haven't really talked about that. We've just kind of hinted around it. I'm like, that's not a hint around as you're about to get married. That's a. We need to have some understanding, even though we know that's not entirely in our control. Absolutely. I have a more, you could say, personal question just in, you know, working in this field and working with relationships in marriage and, you know, having a partner that I'm sure is very supportive to you. And where do you navigate the communication dance when issues or challenges arise in your own relationship in terms of, you know, keeping that hat of being the partner and not necessarily the therapist? Because I see a lot of people do this very poorly. So I'd love some. So my wife is also a therapist. So we have an agreement. Yeah, so we have an agreement. We're not going to therapy each other or coach each other, and yet at the same time, we're aware. So I have a central principle that a marriage succeeds by being a team. It's a we. I call it being a we. And that is not where you lose yourself to the relationship, but that you see that the relationship is us together as a team. We stand together. And so I often use kind of that kind of a sports analogy, right. Of when you're on the team, you can't just lose yourself to the team. You have to bring your best self to play. Can I play my best in this game to win this game? Now, win at life is a little broad, but let's just kind of leave it as that's what we're trying to do together and get through this. And what I see when couples don't do that is they end up being you versus me. And so I don't believe there's a way to avoid conflict in a relationship, but when conflict serves the betterment of the relationship, like, we have a chance to talk about where we are and what we want to move towards. As long as we can make it about us, how can we create something better for us that's going to be successful? And so I don't expect for. In my marriage for us to have no conflict, but can we handle that conflict in a way that helps us have a better path forward? Like the. The frustration may be, this is not working for me. This part is not working for me. Your whatever, our whatever is not working for me. How can we solve that? And if I'm thinking my. My place, what am I getting out of this? You know, can I win this versus our what. What would further us? Years ago, this was. My wife did a really good job of this. Years and years ago, we were having what I'll call a discussion. We're. We're not loud people, so yelling is not a piece of our repertoire. So we're having a discussion, which anybody else would call an argument. And I remember we, you know, it's one of those. And we're both introverts, so we're thinking through it and all of that. And so there's a pause as we're both processing. And she goes down to take care of some laundry. In my little brain, I'm going, oh, this is. Yeah, here's my debate point. I'm going to go make this debate point. And she's going to see how right I am. Figure it out. I have the answer. Yeah, yeah. This will clarify it all for us. Right? And so I raised my finger, and she goes, before you say anything, is what you're about to say going to help us in our life together until one of us dies or not? And I went, never mind. No, it's not. And so I always reflect on that moment of going, okay, how are we using this for a better life together? Rather than, am I winning? Are you winning? Are we winning? You know, are we able to do that better? Is. Are we perfect at it? No. Do we catch each other pretty quickly on that? Yeah. My family has used, and we use this all the time with our kids, a redo. And when you do a redo, you can ask for a redo or be offered a redo in our family. And it goes back to the point before it all kind of went sideways. So our kids would get into, you know, a power struggle with us, and I would go, do you want to redo on this? And they would often go, yeah, I do. So we reverse it back. We hold nothing against that. And then we start the conversation again. And my wife and I have done the same thing. I'm like, hey, can I do a redo on that? Because I was not where I wanted to be in that. And if you're Able to say, our goal is to better our life. A redo as a good little offer and request to let you get back on track, realizing that your emotional state may have been what was guiding it, rather than the can we build something better? I love that there's a sense of connection and synergy in what I'm hearing to rather than to push one down to make yourself feel better, there's really a commitment to say, hey, we're in this together and I want to see us thrive through this rather than kind of separate through animosity and difficulty. Yeah. And where do you find in this, the line is between what I might call codependency and sort of interdependency. Because naturally, when people have a strong we, then there often is an enmeshment and not knowing the difference between where I end and my partner begins. And everything is a. About doing together. And then, you know, you look at later in life and it's almost as if it's just one person that's coexisting as two. Yeah. In a wide variety of relationships. So where, where, where is that, that like, healthy line between the like. It's good to have needs being met by your partner and to know your own individual sovereignty to not be overly dependent on the other. And I think this is a very high topic for relationships because sometimes, especially if they're a bit more resistant and avoiding love, or if they're a bit more addicted and leaning towards. And there's a bit more anxiousness around love. Where do you feel like this dance can effectively exist together? So it is interesting. It's a great question because the codependency term caught so much power for so long and got applied to anything when people were leaning on each other in any way. Interdependence is one of my favorite words because codependency and interdependency got confused. Couples have, by the way we create a marriage, there is an interdependence that is just undeniable. The state sees that, you know, the country see that as you have an entity here that is separate from you individually, there is this joint. We rightly so that that piece is where the interdependence comes. Codependence is losing yourself to the other person. And originally it was losing yourself to the other person's addictions. Right. You were served by their addictions. And so the grumpy spouse. The codependency was the other spouse is going, would you like a drink with your dinner? Maybe you'll be a little happier after that. And so they were dependent on that addiction to help with the relationship. And then it got to be anytime somebody was too close to somebody else. So to follow that, there are two fears that we all carry with us. It's usually that we have one triggered better, but the fear of abandonment on one end and the fear of intimacy on the other end. And the problem is that in relationships, if we're not watching, we can let one be triggered by the other. So fear of abandonment is I'm going to lose this person who is so important to me. And that's where codependency often comes in. You're desperate to have this person because that's the only way you can be complete. And so that's. That's the holding on to them, the. The fear of intimacy. That's a fear of abandonment, fear of intimacies. I will lose myself. And I don't want to do that. So I'm going to hold back. I'm going to stay out of this relationship. And so there's codependency. And then on the fear of intimacy, we have the independency of people where I. You can't tell me what to do. I'm not listening to you. I don't want to be a part of this. You, me, and both of those fail. And the problem is we trigger that in each other. So if I have. If I'm more easily triggered by a fear of intimacy and my spouse is more triggered by a fear of. Of abandonment, we're going to have this problem with space between us because I'm going to be going and they're going to be going. And so we have a battle going on that is within each of us. That capacity is within each of us. It's just what triggers it. So I. I always. So a codependent person is not likely to be bringing their best self to a relationship. That's not what codependency about it. It's about whatever you need. I'm going to be whatever you want. I'm going to mold myself to that. I'm going to mold myself to you as opposed to. I'm going to bring my best itself to this, to our relationship. So seeing it as a we is going. We are a team. There are two people in this team and we're going to both do our best to do that. Not I'm a conglomerate with this other person and I no longer exist as an individual. That's the codependency. So if I can I play a lot of Pickleball. And so when I step out, I look at my partner and go, okay, where are they? Not as good. Because I'm going to need to cover that. Just because that's the game. I need to be able to cover that piece. And there are times when I'm sitting there going, yeah, we both suck at this. We're in trouble. You know, that's. We'll just hunker down. Let's see what we can do. And so. And the interesting thing is, I've watched, so it's been a while now, and I was playing at a much higher level. I'd gone to this open play that was a much higher level, and my partner and I were at about the same level, and we were against two much better players, and we beat them pretty badly. And the reason is because one of them was constantly complaining to the other about their play. And I could watch it happen. You know, they would criticize them, and I could watch their play just drop. And we were probably. I think we were at about five to two, and I was walking by my partner and I just whispered, they're done. We're going to win this. And we beat them 11 to 2 because they just tore each other up. They were not working on the win. They were trying to prove that neither was the bad player. And so I just recall that and went, there it is. You know, you didn't play for the team. You played against your. Your. Your partner. They weren't trying to coexist together. They were attempting to push each other down. Yeah, yeah. You know, to, to. To shift into this kind of deeper conversation around marriage. I think in the world of dating and relationship, there's lots of thoughts and ideas around the, you could say the principle of marriage and of itself. I'm. I'm not a married man. I feel like I'm in a beautiful, loving relationship with my partner. May sometime in the future decide to journey into the. The umbrella of marriage. But I feel like our lives, like, we share homes, we have a child together, we're very much to the outside world and sometimes even call each other, you know, husband and wife, because it just feels that way. That's the. The nature of our relationship. And, you know, for me personally, I. I've seen enough times where I've seen couples be in healthy relationships and then they've gone under this umbrella of marriage. And it's not that it always fails, but I think I've seen it enough to where I'm a little bit, like, little resistance, and I'm still navigating that in myself. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on really, the umbrella and the principles of marriage. And where is that, you know, a necessary route for everyone? And do you think the umbrella of marriage can in some ways actually bring people apart than they had been having a healthy relationship beforehand? So the statistics for people who live together before they marry, it's interesting because they have less of a chance of staying married statistically in the United States. So I haven't seen stats in the world, but in the United States that's the case. And I think there are a number of reasons for that. I think there is an assumption that, okay, we've got this right, we've already done this, and then they don't recognize that there is a shift that does happen in that the state sees something back to the United States. The states or the government says there's something different here. There's this other. Other entity that's here and how they live into that. Sometimes there is the sense of suddenly feeling trapped by this that was not there before. So that can sometimes contaminate it. Not realizing that there is a shift, a healthy way of making that shift to. We often surprises people. Sometimes it's a just a matter of they finally do hit the pause button, right? They've been intentional up until then, and they hit the pause button. So anecdotally, this is anecdotally when I was a teenager, I helped run a sandwich shop. And there were two of us who were kind of the co running it, and this woman who had lived with this guy for years. I think they had been together for 18, 19 years. And along the way, they decided to get married while we were working together. And it took them maybe a year before they divorced and splintered apart. And I was sitting there going, what happened? Because they spent so much time together. And, and. And so part of it was, you know, just that they did then hit the pause button. But there was another piece, and that is that because I talked with this woman, she said, you know, I realized that I had always been kind of on my better behavior because I knew that if he wanted to subconsciously, he could walk away at any point. There's nothing holding them there. Like, he hadn't made this commitment that he'd have to go through this legal process to get. Get out of here. He could just leave. And she said, and I realized he did the same. So I saw things differently from him than I had experienced before, and he experienced me differently. And we changed in the process because that was kind of like what happened there, because y' all seem pretty happy. And she said, we let our guard down. You know, we, we were now as authentic as we could be. So that. That's a factor. I don't think that explains all of it, but there are several pieces that, that psychological change that people didn't see coming. That is, there is the suddenly I lose my freedom and feel trapped. And there is the suddenly I am going to be able to relax and not worry about this. That all compound into often hitting the pause button or going, who is this person? And yeah, I almost feel in that, that sometimes the actual framework of. Of marriage, because it puts people into maybe a deeper rest state and they're not, you know, living each day with a level of carpe diem and joy because, oh, yeah, they're always going to be there. It doesn't always bring out the, the best. And I'm like, personally, I'm. I'm something. I'm continually, like, framing and looking at. I, you know, older brother and sister and they're both happily married and in that. And I've had a, you know, a long life of my own personal freedom and partners and lovers, and it's very easy for me to be into monogamy. So it's really a, It's a reflection into, like, what is this, this thing of marriage that I see often not tear people apart. But I think what you're speaking into feels very accurate because it's like there's all of a sudden not this kind of necessity to, to bring forth a deeper part of ourselves and we almost get complacent. And I think complacency in of itself is such a tearing away factor for many relationships. Yeah, well, and, and so the part of what I keep talking about is you don't have to hit the pause button. I mean, that, that is one of the things I often am saying to couples. You don't have to do that. And that was part of what I was telling couples, you know, as they were coming in, you. And so this is where people go, oh, you're telling me I have to be working on this all the time? Like, no, I'm telling you there's effort. Right. I mean, if you. I always think about the fact that I watch people who get into trouble because they haven't been attending to the relationship, and suddenly they're like, I'm going to do this lump sum, you know, investment. And most financial planners will say the smaller things all along will beat the lump sum down the road any day. And that's the effort you put in. And so this is where we get into the myths. Like, you know, if it's meant to be, it'll work out. I'm like, where do you put that in your life? If it was meant to be, if I was meant to have biceps, I wouldn't need to go to the gym. They would just be there. If it's meant to be that I'm going to have a good job, I don't, I just go about my day and it'll eventually come to me or do I put in effort where it matters to me. And so when we go, it's work, we're making it something different than saying energy. Where I put my energy shows up. How, how do I invest my energy and where do I invest my energy? And to be able to stay consistent with that, it's, it gets, it's, it's creating the habits of relating that keep you in connection that don't have to be huge, but when they're not there, they start deteriorating the whole relationship because they're slowly taking away that connection. Yeah, the habits of relating and the habits of keeping levels of intimacy. I mean I personally might not be in agreement, but I personally think that couples that aren't actually having, you know, deep levels of intimacy together, a special sexual intimacy, there's a following away of connection. And I think there are ways to have those habits built into day to day life rather than the, the, you know, excuses that fall away. Because I do, I do see that over time if those habits of connection and intimacy aren't developed and that pause button has been hit and they're not actually, you know, connecting in a way that brings them joy and ease and grace and this is kind of a further conversation and peace. It's like if there's not. I see a lot of couples who are in what I call more process ships than relationships. Like 90% of the time is oh, we're in process and we're figuring things out. And rather than actually the day to day habits of just being in a joyful relationship. Curious your thoughts on that side because I think especially those that want to grow and I'm going to grow and I'm going to use this relationship, his relationship is the best spiritual teacher I've ever found. And, and I just want to keep growing through this. It's like there's probably some pain in there as well. Yeah. So we, we live in a culture that is very. Analyzing psychology has certainly given us that for good and Ill. And so I watch people who are talking a lot about their relationship instead of relating. And I think it's getting to the same point. You know, I'm like, you got all of this stuff that, that you're reading from books and other places. If you're not relating, you're talking about relating. And that's one layer off that's in your head. That's not where connection really happens. Yes. You want to be thinking about, like, how can I support my spouse and how can I be the best teammate possible? Sure. But when all you're doing is analyzing things instead of connecting, you're talking about relating. You're not actually relating. Yeah. You've written several books I've seen and you're, you know, well, well established author. And I'm sure you've also seen in this last couple years the rise of AI. You know, my book came out before AI. I want to put a little tag on that. Since I wrote this before AI did. And I also see people now. Like, I was just working with a couple the other day and I noticed in the conversation there was a, like, speaking about AI as if it's a therapist that they're relating to. And I'd love to hear your take on this and how you feel like AI is impacting both the writing industry and people's. Like, do we know if this is actually the person's writing or is this just a really well crafted AI and where AI some now is becoming people's therapists. Like, I see benefits to it, but I see a deep, like, taking away of personal connection with yourself and with a therapist in that way or, you know, a coach. I'd love to get your take on both of those. Yeah, let me, let me walk into the minefield of. So I had somebody who reviewed a book that left a review on Amazon. It was like, I think this is AI. I'm like, look at the date of publication of that. It's like 12 years ago. There was no AI that that was doing anything back then. But the problem is since AI models everything on what's already been written. I mean, it's not. It's. It is in my mind. It is bizarre for people to be using AI to tell you if it's AI. I mean, you're, you know, it just. And. And the proof is there. I mean, they've gone back and analyzed old books that were written, I mean, hundreds of years ago, and it goes 95 AI. And I'm like, I mean, it's not possible, but AI can't tell AI. And we're getting to the point where that is going to be absolutely true. Just because AI keeps approving itself and going, oh, you thought that was AI? Well, I'll not do that anymore. And so I think that that's a lost piece, actually. I think we're very quickly going to lose. Just like we're going, is that an AI picture or not? We're in this really weird place where that place and reality are going to be harder and harder for us to discern, which is, I think, terrifying, not just for the publishing industry, but terrifying period. And so, setting that aside, my concern with AI as therapist is that AI is an echo chamber. Just like every other social media thing is around us. If you write something in, it'll say, oh, that's very smart of you to see that. And it doesn't matter what you're putting in. It's. It's there to keep you there. And so it's not going to challenge you. And so it creates a big. And we see this in many of the stories of people who have done crazy things because AI told them to. And why did AI tell them to? Because they were already kind of there and it just echoed chambered and, and made it louder and more prevalent. And so AI is not the expert with an expert opinion. AI is a mirror that's amplifying what you're telling it. So I watch couples who come to me constantly who have. Have hit that, where AI said, oh, you could say this to them. And so they're using AI to validate their perspective without realizing that's what they're doing. That doesn't help because their perspective is, I'm right, you're wrong. I mean, that is just human nature. So it's giving them that. AI is also. I have people who say a couple of things about AI. One is that it told them this about the relationship. And I'm like, well, that was yours. I mean, it's just amplifying and reflecting and putting in better terms. You think that it's objective. It just sounds objective. It's not. It's very subjective. The second thing is they use it to form their arguments. When you're forming your arguments, you're forming them to win, not to relate, not to improve your life. So AI is giving you the winning argument. That's great. If you are trying to argue something with your credit card company and it gives you some great things to say or insurance or wherever people are using it. Not so much in a relationship where it is us Together in this, the third point. And I put this in an article in fact on Substack because I hear it so often, the third thing that is the problem with AI is it's always available. So your spouse is busy with something instead of going, hey, when can we find time? It's like, I'll just go chat with my AI thing. And so people find themselves becoming more and more enthralled with this always happy to see them, always supportive tone of AI that you can't expect from another human. That's, that puts us in this place of expectation. And so AI is always glad to hear what you have to say and will always tell you you're on the mark and how smart of you. And that's too receptive and it's not reality. Yeah, I feel like this conversation of AI and relating is a whole wormhole open up into what, what, like what, what, what's the future of this? Because, you know, I, I do feel, I notice, I mean, I run a lot of in person retreats and groups and I'm often running 15 to 20 retreats a year. And I see, you know, people's kind of, even though they're not always conscious of it, there's a conscious craving for like the humanness in a unhuman world that we're stepping into more and more. So I'm grateful for that. But I also see a lot of the technocratic world like sliding far and farther away from actual human to human relating. And you know, being that this is a large conversation around relationships and marriage and connection, what's your take on where we're going as a society in this kind of robotic AI, you know, answers are always there in the pocket of our hands and our smartphone. And actually this coming away from human to human connection, and it's here, we can't deny it. It's right here in front of us. So how do we navigate that in a healthy way? We're not completely disconnected. Well, and this is where we need to be hoping that government officials decide that we need to have some, some guardrails. Don't see that right now. Mainly because there's a profit issue that's around. So I think that there is a piece that is going to matter on what government says about it and then what individuals do with that. My feeling is eventually people will begin to catch up and go, okay, this is where I put that. Just like we have with past technologies. My concern is this technology is growing so fast that we're always behind what we thought AI was Isn't anymore what we think AI can do. That was last week or last month. And just in that short amount of time it explained explodes. And so for a while, we are going to have to go, is this something I want out of this? Right. Just personally, is this something I want out of this? And some people will say, absolutely, that is what I want. But I, I think you're seeing something that most of us are seeing, that there are a lot of people who are at the point of going, yeah, I want something more human. You know, there they are beginning to recognize they're not getting that. I think there are some gaps based on age where that's the case. Young, younger people are going, yeah, you know, they're going. They're doing the IRL kind of stuff, leaving their phones to the side when they're with their friends or going back to the dumb phone just because it keeps them from being stuck in that. The age that is having more trouble are as an older generation, that's kind of like, I'm, I'm loving this. Right. I'm. I'm getting everything I want and not seeing how much of an insulation that creates. Just like social media has put us in our own echo chamber, so is AI and we just, we haven't as a culture recognized that there is a subgroup that will recognize that much sooner. And unfortunately, that's the younger group. So I, I don't know where it's headed. I have concerns. I also go, you know, there's some pretty cool tools that are out there for. I mean, I can get research done in 10 minutes. It would have taken me days to do. And that's helpful for my process. But I go, that's a tool. And I better fact check because it'll lie to me for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting world we're stepping into in this new year. Yeah. Thank you for your dedication to this, this work, this dedication to relating and personally and professionally. And I can feel the years of expertise that you cultivated along the way in the books you publish and what you've created. Where's the best place for someone to find you? And do you have any fun and new exciting projects that you're working on right now? Yeah. We just released the Unpause app that was back in November. It's basically aimed for people who are ready to unpause their relationship to take that pause button and hit it again and unpause their relationship. Unpause your marriage.com is where they can find that. But a really good place to dig in is@savethemarriage.com podcast. You're here at this on a podcast, so savethemarriage.com podcast because it links you to three things. If your marriage is in crisis, that's the Save the Marriage system. If your marriage is just not where you want it to be and you want to get it going again, that's the Unpause app. And then if you're not sure, there is an assessment that you can use that I've created that basically it's the GPS assessment that will let you know kind of where you are on the map, what are the chances. And they're all there at save the marriage.com podcast. So that'd be the other place. Amazing. Amazing. Thank you for showing up here today. Thank you for being on being on this path of love and relating and being a leader as well. I can really feel your, your pathway is leading the way in healthy relationships for yourself and for others. And it's beautiful. Thanks, Aaron. Yeah, thank you everyone for tuning in. This has been love, sex and leadership. And please subscribe or share this. If you have questions from our conversation today, feel free to put it in the comments below and have a beautiful day and see you next time.