WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:38.842 --> 00:01:40.042 CJ: Duke today. 00:01:40.042 --> 00:01:41.802 We're talking to a very special guest. 00:01:41.832 --> 00:01:44.572 The one and only Chris Nanda. 00:01:45.062 --> 00:01:45.462 Hey, Chris. 00:01:46.532 --> 00:01:46.872 Chris: guys. 00:01:46.872 --> 00:01:47.752 How's it going today? 00:01:48.332 --> 00:01:49.122 Duke: Pretty good, man. 00:01:49.132 --> 00:01:49.692 Pretty good. 00:01:49.692 --> 00:01:50.982 I'm so glad to have you here. 00:01:50.982 --> 00:01:56.182 For those who don't know, Chris is an OG amongst ServiceNow OGs. 00:01:56.182 --> 00:01:58.102 Chris: Yeah, it's been about 15 years now. 00:02:00.272 --> 00:02:02.462 Duke: And, just to give you an idea of what that means. 00:02:02.516 --> 00:02:09.096 Chris built an app for ServiceNow and sold it before there was a ServiceNow store. 00:02:09.284 --> 00:02:09.754 Chris: Very true. 00:02:09.764 --> 00:02:11.181 A couple of apps, actually. 00:02:11.796 --> 00:02:13.636 Duke: One was the, , Flexera integration. 00:02:13.636 --> 00:02:14.086 Was it? 00:02:14.621 --> 00:02:17.921 Chris: Well, I did the Flexera integration on behalf of Flexera, but I actually 00:02:17.931 --> 00:02:22.491 had two of my own apps before ServiceNow did, and now ServiceNow has them again. 00:02:23.021 --> 00:02:28.401 , one of them was automated software deployment through SCCM, now aka CSD, 00:02:28.921 --> 00:02:30.281 our client software distribution. 00:02:30.341 --> 00:02:33.451 And then, , they came out with event management right after I built it, which 00:02:33.916 --> 00:02:36.076 , using, , system center operations manager. 00:02:37.031 --> 00:02:37.721 CJ: Nice. 00:02:38.164 --> 00:02:40.504 all of those are, are, huge Microsoft word. 00:02:40.544 --> 00:02:43.984 So would it be safe to say that you got a huge, , it background too? 00:02:44.979 --> 00:02:49.739 Chris: Ah, you know, it's necessarily less IT and more. 00:02:50.019 --> 00:02:54.399 I just did a lot of C sharp and NET development before I got into ServiceNow. 00:02:54.979 --> 00:02:58.729 And so, I kind of graduated into that area. 00:02:58.799 --> 00:03:02.789 Ultimately, what took me down that road was actually just customers. 00:03:02.922 --> 00:03:06.252 talking to different customers, doing implementations for about 00:03:06.252 --> 00:03:07.612 a year and a half at that point. 00:03:07.612 --> 00:03:10.653 So, I kept getting asked for the same integrations over and over again. 00:03:10.733 --> 00:03:14.079 And I'm like, well, why am I going to go build this and charge them 00:03:14.129 --> 00:03:18.309 all of the hours and whatnot when I could just maintain something 00:03:18.819 --> 00:03:22.619 and sell it and everybody kind of wins there because I can resell the 00:03:22.619 --> 00:03:24.556 same thing, sell it for cheaper. 00:03:24.776 --> 00:03:28.076 Honestly, the first time I sold it, we signed the contract and 00:03:28.106 --> 00:03:29.846 they told me, ha ha, thanks, Chris. 00:03:29.886 --> 00:03:31.146 We would have paid double for this. 00:03:34.366 --> 00:03:34.886 CJ: Oh man. 00:03:34.886 --> 00:03:36.496 Well, that's, you know what though? 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.349 that is absolutely great feedback, right? 00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:42.039 Like I'm telling you, they would have paid you double for it, right? 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:44.629 It's like them paying you double because now, you know, when going to the next 00:03:44.629 --> 00:03:46.699 person, you can increase the price, 00:03:47.189 --> 00:03:48.419 Chris: That's exactly what we did. 00:03:50.799 --> 00:03:53.969 CJ: boom, free market feedback, take that first client, 00:03:55.079 --> 00:03:55.769 Chris: Exactly. 00:03:56.721 --> 00:03:58.846 Duke: what was your first contact with ServiceNow? 00:03:59.526 --> 00:04:03.906 Chris: so I was graduating from , AIT in the National, or the Army. 00:04:03.976 --> 00:04:05.726 I was in the National Guard, so part time. 00:04:06.306 --> 00:04:10.413 And , I started putting my resume out there, and one of them was this 00:04:10.443 --> 00:04:12.173 company called Fruition Partners. 00:04:12.429 --> 00:04:13.779 some people may have heard of them. 00:04:14.219 --> 00:04:18.699 , they were only about seven people at the time, so they were not large at all. 00:04:18.699 --> 00:04:23.484 So And I get an interview, this guy on the phone, Mark Toluto, 00:04:23.514 --> 00:04:25.744 says, Hey, Chris, would you like to be a JavaScript developer? 00:04:25.799 --> 00:04:27.359 This is 2009. 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:29.769 I'd been doing web development for a number of years. 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:31.199 I laughed at it. 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:37.409 Not like, condescendingly laugh, but just, I laughed because JavaScript was a second 00:04:37.509 --> 00:04:39.269 rate language when it comes down to it. 00:04:39.269 --> 00:04:43.989 I've done C sharp, Java, C some PHP, unfortunately. 00:04:44.309 --> 00:04:47.289 and so I just kind of laughed at that, but then I heard him out and heard 00:04:47.289 --> 00:04:51.706 about the platform, did my research, read about what ServiceNow was using 00:04:51.746 --> 00:04:55.876 under the hood a little bit, and I just started to like it more and more. 00:04:55.996 --> 00:04:59.119 And so I, I took the opportunity and that was it. 00:04:59.219 --> 00:05:03.519 I was employee, well, technically I was a contractor, but employee number eight at 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:05.259 fruition partners, I think eight or nine. 00:05:05.463 --> 00:05:07.746 and now I think technically it's DXC. 00:05:09.066 --> 00:05:11.346 CJ: Yeah, there was like two different transitions there. 00:05:11.346 --> 00:05:16.946 I went from a fruition partners to CSC and then CSC was acquired by DXC. 00:05:16.946 --> 00:05:17.526 I think. 00:05:17.936 --> 00:05:18.976 Chris: Yeah, it sounds about right. 00:05:19.543 --> 00:05:23.676 Yeah, so, um, I started off just doing implementations , for about a year. 00:05:23.786 --> 00:05:26.929 , had no IT background, actually, just development. 00:05:27.039 --> 00:05:30.409 Before that, I was building, like I said, PHP websites and things like that. 00:05:31.029 --> 00:05:32.486 And here's the thing. 00:05:32.486 --> 00:05:36.016 When it comes down to process, I am not a process focused person, but 00:05:36.016 --> 00:05:39.586 I can do process, because when it comes down to it, what is a process? 00:05:40.046 --> 00:05:41.026 It's a logical structure. 00:05:41.026 --> 00:05:43.256 It's a logical progression of steps. 00:05:43.456 --> 00:05:47.029 And so that's what computer scientists and software engineers do. 00:05:47.619 --> 00:05:49.739 And so I was able to pick that up fairly well. 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:54.096 And so doing implementations and whatnot like that, I just kind of fell into 00:05:54.096 --> 00:05:57.696 integrations because of the fact that I loved working with different systems. 00:05:57.776 --> 00:06:01.326 And so, Corey, you know, mentioning how I got into the, 00:06:01.358 --> 00:06:07.885 CJ: I 00:06:08.035 --> 00:06:09.035 Chris: of these different things. 00:06:09.485 --> 00:06:15.275 And at that time, SCCM didn't have a PowerShell SDK service. 00:06:15.275 --> 00:06:18.175 Now couldn't run PowerShell very easily. 00:06:18.175 --> 00:06:20.665 Even back then it was called run book automation. 00:06:21.340 --> 00:06:22.390 Duke: Oh, those were the days. 00:06:23.415 --> 00:06:23.965 Chris: Yeah. 00:06:24.065 --> 00:06:24.535 Yeah. 00:06:26.170 --> 00:06:26.200 Duke: a 00:06:26.395 --> 00:06:27.185 CJ: absolutely. 00:06:27.185 --> 00:06:27.695 Oh man. 00:06:27.695 --> 00:06:28.662 That's, way back. 00:06:29.032 --> 00:06:29.732 Chris: Oh yeah. 00:06:30.102 --> 00:06:30.612 CJ: Yeah. 00:06:30.952 --> 00:06:34.512 I remember like fighting with my management to get run book automation. 00:06:34.702 --> 00:06:39.312 finally got it and then automated our onboarding and that was pretty kick ass. 00:06:39.697 --> 00:06:40.327 Duke: Oh, man. 00:06:40.327 --> 00:06:44.617 I was like, I couldn't, I had so many fights with that because we literally 00:06:44.617 --> 00:06:47.167 had a team of people that they pulled in. 00:06:47.787 --> 00:06:51.207 To do all of our AD management for a global company. 00:06:51.837 --> 00:06:55.787 And they just sat, they stacked these people five deep in a room and all 00:06:55.787 --> 00:06:59.617 they were doing were copying and pasting accounts out of emails and 00:06:59.617 --> 00:07:02.647 I'm like, they got this thing called run book automation and service now. 00:07:02.647 --> 00:07:03.357 And they're like, nah,. 00:07:03.830 --> 00:07:04.830 We got it all worked out. 00:07:04.830 --> 00:07:07.210 I'm like, yes, but it's crazy what you're doing. 00:07:09.790 --> 00:07:10.680 Never won that one. 00:07:10.900 --> 00:07:12.020 I blame myself, but. 00:07:13.565 --> 00:07:13.625 Chris: Um, 00:07:14.380 --> 00:07:14.680 CJ: yeah. 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:15.940 You know, it's funny though, right? 00:07:15.940 --> 00:07:20.597 Like I think,, the greed switch automation was discounted, 15 years 00:07:20.602 --> 00:07:22.667 ago versus now, like, is immense. 00:07:22.997 --> 00:07:25.727 And, and then not just from the business too, I, remember. 00:07:26.042 --> 00:07:29.332 when folks are like, oh, we're going to script this script, it like you 00:07:29.332 --> 00:07:31.572 can't rely on the script, right? 00:07:31.572 --> 00:07:34.162 Like, and this is from like folks in it, like, no, you got to do 00:07:34.162 --> 00:07:38.562 this manually, And now everything's done via code essentially, right? 00:07:38.572 --> 00:07:39.072 Like, you 00:07:39.217 --> 00:07:39.397 Chris: Exactly. 00:07:40.902 --> 00:07:43.692 CJ: Microsoft's entire management system is all based on PowerShell. 00:07:45.727 --> 00:07:46.627 Chris: Absolutely. 00:07:47.072 --> 00:07:51.472 CJ: you create a mailbox from exchange admin out, whatever the equivalent is 00:07:51.472 --> 00:07:54.912 now, I don't know, but you right click, and hit, , create mailbox or whatever, 00:07:54.912 --> 00:07:58.552 but there's underlying PowerShell that it runs to do that action. 00:07:58.552 --> 00:08:01.948 And then it prints it out in the console, so you can see it, it's basically 00:08:01.948 --> 00:08:05.418 advertising to you that this is no longer like right click operations. 00:08:05.418 --> 00:08:08.592 It's like, you're just, using the GUI to craft the script. 00:08:09.032 --> 00:08:12.032 Duke: Uh, 00:08:12.412 --> 00:08:12.852 Chris: ever did. 00:08:12.862 --> 00:08:16.912 And even to this day, ServiceNow does the exact same thing with all of the 00:08:16.912 --> 00:08:19.072 different flow actions and workflow. 00:08:19.152 --> 00:08:21.492 You know, if you go back to orchestration or run book automation. 00:08:21.922 --> 00:08:26.462 It's the same type of thing where they're just passing a script to a 00:08:26.462 --> 00:08:28.092 power, the PowerShell executable. 00:08:28.452 --> 00:08:32.642 In this case, if you're running PowerShell and off to the races 00:08:32.642 --> 00:08:33.752 and you might get an error. 00:08:33.752 --> 00:08:35.422 You might not, you might get something back. 00:08:35.692 --> 00:08:39.982 They've made some really cool wrappers around the scripts that they run. 00:08:40.062 --> 00:08:40.952 I have to admit. 00:08:41.288 --> 00:08:46.388 The team at ServiceNow that worked on that PowerShell implementation did a fairly 00:08:46.388 --> 00:08:52.818 good job of building out how they're going to execute PowerShell from a Java library. 00:08:53.258 --> 00:08:57.602 Because, you can't just go and execute PowerShell from a Java application, right? 00:08:57.952 --> 00:09:00.492 So they actually have executable, the PowerShell. 00:09:00.572 --> 00:09:03.852 exe, and pass the script in the command line. 00:09:04.135 --> 00:09:05.975 Duke: We've got to put a deep water sign up here. 00:09:05.975 --> 00:09:06.695 Just 1 second. 00:09:09.625 --> 00:09:10.645 Chris: Yeah, that's fair. 00:09:10.675 --> 00:09:11.075 That's fair. 00:09:11.575 --> 00:09:12.005 Back up. 00:09:12.045 --> 00:09:12.655 Back up top. 00:09:12.775 --> 00:09:17.935 Um, but automation, automation has been the low hanging fruit though. 00:09:18.195 --> 00:09:21.555 , 10, 15 years ago, everybody wanted to talk about onboarding and offboarding. 00:09:21.595 --> 00:09:21.905 Right. 00:09:22.745 --> 00:09:27.655 And it's funny because I still see the same discussions, 00:09:27.655 --> 00:09:29.175 but not a lot of movement. 00:09:29.685 --> 00:09:30.435 Duke: Isn't it crazy? 00:09:31.135 --> 00:09:31.565 Chris: right. 00:09:31.865 --> 00:09:35.075 A lot of the customers that are using service now that have been on service 00:09:35.075 --> 00:09:39.520 now for even eight or nine years, They may even have licensing for some of these 00:09:39.530 --> 00:09:44.123 things, and they haven't implemented them for one reason or another. 00:09:44.303 --> 00:09:45.243 Maybe we'll get into that. 00:09:45.748 --> 00:09:48.485 Duke: I wouldn't be careful where we placed kind of the 00:09:48.485 --> 00:09:49.335 blame for that because I 00:09:49.420 --> 00:09:50.250 Chris: No, no, no. 00:09:50.575 --> 00:09:52.035 Duke: to go around everywhere. 00:09:52.035 --> 00:09:57.655 Like, My first mega project, once we deployed ITIL in like three weeks, 00:09:58.725 --> 00:10:04.635 um, back in the day was, I mean, we're literally too scared because 00:10:04.658 --> 00:10:08.488 we planned months for this, but we're done in weeks and what are 00:10:08.488 --> 00:10:09.968 we going to do to save our jobs? 00:10:11.228 --> 00:10:16.178 And we had this person who, , is the kind of guy that, , The company just 00:10:16.228 --> 00:10:17.888 locks him in a room to solve a problem. 00:10:19.078 --> 00:10:21.038 And so they basically sent this dude away, like figure out our 00:10:21.048 --> 00:10:22.368 global onboarding and offboarding. 00:10:22.368 --> 00:10:24.638 He came back a month later with piles of Excel sheets. 00:10:25.773 --> 00:10:53.913 CJ: Heh heh heh. 00:10:54.788 --> 00:10:58.408 Duke: a lot, a lot, a lot of work that needs to be done way beforehand, 00:10:58.448 --> 00:11:02.778 if you want to tackle it as a big thing, meaning like one big 00:11:02.788 --> 00:11:05.058 overarching onboarding request. 00:11:05.058 --> 00:11:06.276 Yeah. 00:11:06.468 --> 00:11:08.838 Chris: problem with it, though, is you're 100 percent right there, 00:11:09.378 --> 00:11:11.388 except the technology is there. 00:11:11.388 --> 00:11:16.688 We have it in front of us in order to streamline the technology side of it. 00:11:17.075 --> 00:11:19.665 and realistically, and what you're kind of, it seems you're 00:11:19.665 --> 00:11:23.695 alluding to is the process side of it is really the hard part. 00:11:24.495 --> 00:11:28.515 And it really still amazes me that more companies aren't focusing on, 00:11:28.545 --> 00:11:33.788 all right, let's focus on that process side, or resolving the technology side. 00:11:33.798 --> 00:11:37.818 Even ServiceNow, they give us flows and flow actions and all of these things, 00:11:38.178 --> 00:11:39.815 but they're all partial solutions. 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:41.820 Duke: Oh, I just straight up murdered somebody for a 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:43.300 decision table back in the day. 00:11:43.400 --> 00:11:43.840 Like, 00:11:45.230 --> 00:11:47.540 , CJ: so , the thing about process though, right? 00:11:47.560 --> 00:11:50.440 Is their process is inherently, , people centric. 00:11:50.970 --> 00:11:51.290 Right. 00:11:51.310 --> 00:11:54.767 And, what do you do when you get like a bunch of, of it 00:11:54.767 --> 00:11:56.257 folks together in a room, right? 00:11:56.317 --> 00:11:58.167 It's not always people centric. 00:11:58.177 --> 00:11:59.827 And especially, right. 00:11:59.857 --> 00:12:04.487 Especially when the difference in it knowledge, when there's a notable, 00:12:04.497 --> 00:12:06.237 difference and it knowledge, right. 00:12:06.237 --> 00:12:08.617 you're going to have like the it folks talking in one language, 00:12:08.627 --> 00:12:10.827 you're gonna have the business folks talking in another language, 00:12:11.037 --> 00:12:14.457 there's going to be a big old wall of communication barrier in the middle. 00:12:14.647 --> 00:12:14.947 Right. 00:12:14.947 --> 00:12:19.037 And so processes don't get built because processes don't get communicated. 00:12:19.393 --> 00:12:23.113 Chris: that is 100 percent right, and that actually kind of takes us into something 00:12:23.113 --> 00:12:24.803 we were thinking about talking about. 00:12:25.675 --> 00:12:28.685 you need a good architect when it comes down to these implementations, 00:12:29.205 --> 00:12:31.795 because an architect in that room 00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:36.340 be able to walk in and listen to the folks, the folks who 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:38.080 are very technology centric. 00:12:38.615 --> 00:12:43.465 And listen to the business folks and bridge that gap with communications, 00:12:43.585 --> 00:12:47.435 understanding, all right, business, you would like to be able to 00:12:47.435 --> 00:12:50.765 ensure that you start off here and you end up here, technology. 00:12:50.985 --> 00:12:55.035 That means, ultimately, they need to do this, this, this and this, go do it. 00:12:55.615 --> 00:12:56.815 And this is what needs to be done. 00:12:57.065 --> 00:13:00.995 and being able to communicate that to both teams, being able to then 00:13:01.115 --> 00:13:05.285 continue to communicate that and ensure that everyone is on the same page. 00:13:05.285 --> 00:13:05.875 That way. 00:13:06.465 --> 00:13:10.635 All of that process goes and gets completed properly. 00:13:11.175 --> 00:13:13.685 Otherwise, and I've sat in rooms and seen this. 00:13:14.220 --> 00:13:18.350 The business side is sitting there telling the IT side, Well, we want this. 00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:22.570 Oh, well, you want XYZ, is how the IT team responds. 00:13:23.355 --> 00:13:23.605 CJ: Mm 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:28.490 Chris: the business is like, Mmm, no, no, that's nowhere near what we are saying. 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:32.770 Duke: or the it gives them exactly what they asked for, even 00:13:32.770 --> 00:13:35.190 though it was not the best idea. 00:13:35.190 --> 00:13:36.540 It was just the only way. 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:39.130 They knew how to do it and just everybody take a shot. 00:13:39.130 --> 00:13:41.580 Cause I'll break out the Amish metaphor again, if I have to, but, 00:13:43.640 --> 00:13:46.600 but sometimes they just don't know how to ask it because they don't have the 00:13:46.610 --> 00:13:49.820 visibility into the, like all the things that are available, you know what I mean? 00:13:49.820 --> 00:13:51.460 They're not, their job isn't service. 00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:52.690 Now builders. 00:13:52.835 --> 00:13:53.696 So, um, 00:13:54.020 --> 00:13:54.260 Chris: right. 00:13:54.310 --> 00:13:57.370 And, and I'm about to give you guys something that, that I was about 00:13:57.370 --> 00:13:59.200 to put in, in a video of my own. 00:13:59.510 --> 00:14:01.790 So I'll, forego that and, just say it here. 00:14:02.350 --> 00:14:05.960 One of the key things that I've noticed about our ecosystem here is 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:10.110 that with architects, , the ServiceNow ecosystem has redefined the term 00:14:10.110 --> 00:14:11.670 architect in a number of different ways. 00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:13.740 And I'm not going to get into the good and bad and all that. 00:14:14.218 --> 00:14:16.428 The main point I want to get into is understanding. 00:14:17.018 --> 00:14:20.488 And so making sure that our public, that people who are getting into our 00:14:20.508 --> 00:14:24.973 ecosystem know that What to expect when they hear the term architect and that 00:14:25.033 --> 00:14:29.263 it's going to be different Depending on the scenario that you're in Because 00:14:29.263 --> 00:14:32.273 there's two key things here and a lot of the military folks out there that 00:14:32.273 --> 00:14:35.383 I talked to because I worked with some of the next gen candidates that 00:14:35.433 --> 00:14:37.473 Are coming from the military side. 00:14:37.873 --> 00:14:42.173 They seem to understand really well Is that you have a project role or 00:14:42.173 --> 00:14:44.213 your responsibilities that you do? 00:14:44.653 --> 00:14:47.949 And then you also have your pay grade and You In today's world, in 00:14:47.949 --> 00:14:54.073 ServiceNow, we've gotten this idea that I graduate or I level up from, senior 00:14:54.073 --> 00:14:55.783 technical consultant to be an architect. 00:14:56.493 --> 00:14:58.823 And now I'm an architect and I do something completely different. 00:14:59.178 --> 00:15:00.958 Well, that's your pay grade, realistically. 00:15:01.508 --> 00:15:04.978 It's something to make sure that you can get paid more, right? 00:15:05.633 --> 00:15:05.833 CJ: Yep. 00:15:06.818 --> 00:15:10.941 Chris: And, but, that doesn't mean that you can do, the role of an architect, 00:15:10.941 --> 00:15:12.911 necessarily, to be perfectly frank. 00:15:13.411 --> 00:15:15.921 , you might just be a really good developer, or a really good 00:15:15.921 --> 00:15:18.061 senior TC, and that's okay. 00:15:18.701 --> 00:15:22.184 Because it's just a different path and that's the key thing that, one 00:15:22.184 --> 00:15:25.804 of the worst parts that I've seen is that TCs or senior technical 00:15:25.834 --> 00:15:29.814 consultants, consultant or senior developer seems to feel they need to 00:15:29.814 --> 00:15:32.294 graduate to this architectural now. 00:15:33.224 --> 00:15:34.624 And that's not the truth. 00:15:35.174 --> 00:15:38.664 It's, it's almost like back in the day where they assumed that an engineer 00:15:38.854 --> 00:15:43.094 needed to graduate to become a manager and not do their development stuff anymore 00:15:43.104 --> 00:15:44.204 and do something completely different. 00:15:44.214 --> 00:15:45.094 That's not the case. 00:15:45.544 --> 00:15:48.281 And so, may be your pay grade as an architect. 00:15:48.596 --> 00:15:51.606 But your role is going to be defined by what you actually 00:15:51.606 --> 00:15:53.396 present on a particular project. 00:15:53.496 --> 00:15:54.526 And that's the key thing. 00:15:54.526 --> 00:15:56.986 And there's some programs out there that we're, you know, we're 00:15:56.986 --> 00:15:59.873 not going to really get into here, that focus on this difference. 00:16:00.053 --> 00:16:03.183 And ultimately, an architect is there as we were kind of starting out here 00:16:03.183 --> 00:16:08.963 talking about to communicate and ensure that everyone is on the same page and 00:16:08.963 --> 00:16:13.113 look at everything that's going on in the project and in the infrastructure. 00:16:13.143 --> 00:16:13.173 And. 00:16:14.023 --> 00:16:18.363 In a holistic way, so that way they can see, all right, how is this all 00:16:18.363 --> 00:16:22.493 going to work together and we ensure that your piece over here is being 00:16:22.503 --> 00:16:26.976 built to a scalable way, and it's going to work properly with this piece 00:16:26.976 --> 00:16:31.836 over here and bring them together them as the project comes and comes 00:16:31.836 --> 00:16:35.346 back together as you're about to go live or, or move on from there. 00:16:35.846 --> 00:16:36.356 And. 00:16:36.846 --> 00:16:39.386 It's just a key thing that they're two different things. 00:16:39.876 --> 00:16:43.956 And the problem is we merge them all in the, in today's world. 00:16:44.176 --> 00:16:47.126 So, Hey recruiter, I'm looking for an architect. 00:16:47.336 --> 00:16:47.616 Okay. 00:16:47.616 --> 00:16:48.346 Well, I'm an architect. 00:16:48.346 --> 00:16:50.146 I've been in the ecosystem for 10 years. 00:16:50.466 --> 00:16:51.536 Uh, what have you worked on? 00:16:51.576 --> 00:16:52.336 ITSM. 00:16:54.496 --> 00:16:57.119 CJ: Yeah, so Chris, this is one of my hobbies, right? 00:16:57.119 --> 00:17:00.109 So a lot of organizational culture, , that you're touching on here. 00:17:00.109 --> 00:17:02.649 There's a lot of, , management theory that you touched on, right? 00:17:02.649 --> 00:17:05.919 Is that the whole Peter principle has been popularized and, social 00:17:05.919 --> 00:17:07.099 media circles or whatever. 00:17:07.099 --> 00:17:09.699 But, the fact that people often get promoted , to their 00:17:09.699 --> 00:17:10.959 level of incompetence, right? 00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:13.352 That separation of, pay. 00:17:13.429 --> 00:17:18.869 From title is key to ensure that you're rewarding people for what they're good 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:23.869 at and not merely promoting them to a level at which they're no longer good, but 00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:25.809 you felt like you had no choice, right? 00:17:25.969 --> 00:17:29.729 Because they were really good at the place where, you know, where you noticed them. 00:17:30.659 --> 00:17:31.129 Right. 00:17:31.699 --> 00:17:33.449 And so I, right. 00:17:33.449 --> 00:17:36.029 And I just think there's this, you know, as a culture, , we 00:17:36.029 --> 00:17:37.669 haven't set this difference, right? 00:17:37.679 --> 00:17:40.729 Like between, , where you want to, 00:17:40.894 --> 00:17:41.720 Chris: Silence. 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:42.547 Silence. 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.529 CJ: difference between where you want to, we're, , rewarding folks 00:17:45.819 --> 00:17:49.169 versus like where they sit in the, , organizational hierarchy. 00:17:49.418 --> 00:17:50.245 Chris: Silence. 00:17:50.294 --> 00:17:52.444 Duke: think there's, it's hard, right? 00:17:52.494 --> 00:17:56.934 The market's super, super efficient, but also dumb in the sense that it 00:17:56.934 --> 00:18:00.084 doesn't, handle complex things at scale. 00:18:00.744 --> 00:18:01.174 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:01.184 --> 00:18:04.144 Duke: So if you want an idea to take off, it can't be like 00:18:04.174 --> 00:18:05.324 under these circumstances. 00:18:05.354 --> 00:18:06.753 No, no, there's no butts. 00:18:07.183 --> 00:18:08.453 There's no different pathways. 00:18:08.483 --> 00:18:12.856 It's like only the simple ideas scale, Only the simple ideas scale. 00:18:12.896 --> 00:18:15.126 So there must be only one path to her advancement. 00:18:15.666 --> 00:18:16.516 Otherwise. 00:18:16.874 --> 00:18:17.964 The mark's not gonna understand. 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:20.907 CJ: maybe, software architecture isn't supposed to scale. 00:18:21.347 --> 00:18:21.827 Right. 00:18:22.727 --> 00:18:26.404 and maybe that's the problem is that we're trying to scale a principle that doesn't. 00:18:26.404 --> 00:18:26.594 Right. 00:18:26.594 --> 00:18:27.444 It's complicated. 00:18:27.574 --> 00:18:30.384 . Being a ServiceNow architect, if you do it well, it's complicated. 00:18:30.604 --> 00:18:32.310 You need to be able to walk into a room. 00:18:32.310 --> 00:18:32.919 With a room that's not a service now. 00:18:32.969 --> 00:18:34.179 With , any type of stakeholder 00:18:35.003 --> 00:18:40.627 Chris: Hey, 00:18:40.639 --> 00:18:40.879 CJ: right. 00:18:40.879 --> 00:18:42.139 Get everybody on the same page. 00:18:42.159 --> 00:18:43.999 Your Amish metaphor Duke, like, 00:18:45.029 --> 00:18:45.189 Duke: Oh, 00:18:45.289 --> 00:18:46.759 CJ: or no, no, this is the band. 00:18:46.909 --> 00:18:48.189 This is the band metaphor. 00:18:48.889 --> 00:18:49.669 Duke: the marching band. 00:18:49.669 --> 00:18:51.649 Well, 00:18:51.859 --> 00:18:53.929 CJ: you gotta be, go ahead, go ahead. 00:18:53.989 --> 00:18:54.589 Duke: no, no, you go ahead. 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:55.639 You're, you're, you're on fire. 00:18:55.639 --> 00:18:57.519 They're about to go pretty 00:18:57.889 --> 00:19:00.419 CJ: No, but you got to be able to go into the room, right? 00:19:00.419 --> 00:19:03.492 And you got to get all these folks who got different instruments, you 00:19:03.492 --> 00:19:06.102 know, get them all playing together. 00:19:06.182 --> 00:19:08.992 So that instead of having chaos, you've got a symphony. 00:19:09.249 --> 00:19:11.572 And, that is a rare, uh, thing to do. 00:19:12.772 --> 00:19:13.032 Right. 00:19:13.032 --> 00:19:16.042 It requires a lot of different attributes in a person. 00:19:16.072 --> 00:19:20.709 And it isn't a skillset that scales, I'll tell you like, as an independent 00:19:20.709 --> 00:19:24.419 contractor, as somebody who's been doing service now for a long time, if you put 00:19:24.419 --> 00:19:26.259 me on a development contract, right. 00:19:26.259 --> 00:19:28.369 Like I could scale that, like nobody's business. 00:19:28.775 --> 00:19:31.715 But if you put me on things where I'm using like my actual 00:19:31.725 --> 00:19:35.784 consulting, My actual architect, traits and things of that nature. 00:19:36.084 --> 00:19:37.014 I, yeah, I can't. 00:19:37.214 --> 00:19:38.724 . Because those things take time. 00:19:38.954 --> 00:19:41.194 they take a lot more, engagement, right. 00:19:41.194 --> 00:19:43.784 A lot more mental capacity and it, it wears you out. 00:19:43.814 --> 00:19:46.834 And it's just not something that you can do say for 00:19:46.834 --> 00:19:49.244 projects of software of service. 00:19:49.244 --> 00:19:51.534 Now architecture consulting at once, right. 00:19:51.534 --> 00:19:53.324 You just won't be able to turn that around, 00:19:53.634 --> 00:19:55.564 Duke: Okay, I got let me play devil advocate for a second 00:19:55.754 --> 00:19:56.894 devil's advocate for a second. 00:19:56.944 --> 00:19:59.634 so, based off of what you guys have said so far, what would 00:19:59.634 --> 00:20:01.294 you say differentiate different? 00:20:01.294 --> 00:20:04.366 Um, what would you 00:20:04.564 --> 00:20:04.974 CJ: that, 00:20:05.133 --> 00:20:06.669 Duke: say differentiates 00:20:11.809 --> 00:20:14.299 an architect from an engagement man. 00:20:15.199 --> 00:20:18.049 When it comes to like, synchronizing people's voices and objectives 00:20:18.049 --> 00:20:20.469 and all that kind of stuff, what would, what differentiates the 00:20:20.469 --> 00:20:21.859 architect from the engagement man? 00:20:21.899 --> 00:20:22.579 CJ: Chris, you're the guest. 00:20:22.579 --> 00:20:24.239 I'll let you take the crack first unless you want me to go. 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:26.089 Chris: Go right ahead first. 00:20:26.089 --> 00:20:26.119 Okay. 00:20:26.654 --> 00:20:27.034 CJ: All right. 00:20:27.034 --> 00:20:31.084 for me, an engagement manager as a person can come into that room and 00:20:31.084 --> 00:20:32.714 facilitate conversations, right? 00:20:32.714 --> 00:20:33.464 And take notes. 00:20:33.771 --> 00:20:36.171 it's going to be like, I'm going to make you feel good. 00:20:36.371 --> 00:20:40.211 ? As my customer, I'm going to talk to you about the things that I know 00:20:40.211 --> 00:20:42.331 as organizationally we can deliver. 00:20:42.621 --> 00:20:46.801 ? I'm going to take very good notes about stuff that I may or may not understand. 00:20:47.131 --> 00:20:50.761 ? And then I'm going to bring that back to the team and find the person 00:20:50.761 --> 00:20:52.596 on the team with the skill set. 00:20:52.706 --> 00:20:56.416 You know, that can help, , facilitate this , and that may, and some 00:20:56.416 --> 00:20:57.586 of those notes may be technical. 00:20:57.586 --> 00:20:59.466 Some of those notes may be organizational. 00:20:59.696 --> 00:21:04.696 And so you may be talking to 2 or 3, 1 or 2, 3, 4 people on the team, right? 00:21:04.696 --> 00:21:07.486 To actually accomplished, you know, the things that you've, , heard from 00:21:07.486 --> 00:21:12.456 your client, but I think, engagement is really the key word in the title, right? 00:21:12.456 --> 00:21:16.146 Like you're engaging with the client to understand their problems, right? 00:21:16.146 --> 00:21:19.096 You're going to take those, uh, you're going to come, uh, you're going to 00:21:19.106 --> 00:21:20.616 document those takeaways, right? 00:21:20.616 --> 00:21:22.576 And then you're going to go back to your organization to 00:21:22.576 --> 00:21:23.576 figure out how we can fix them. 00:21:24.341 --> 00:21:26.061 Chris: I would completely agree with that. 00:21:26.351 --> 00:21:29.851 Really what it comes down to the best engagement managers, the best 00:21:29.851 --> 00:21:36.301 architects, the best consultants that I've ever seen oftentimes have a 00:21:36.408 --> 00:21:39.227 fairly common set of, proficiencies. 00:21:40.057 --> 00:21:45.457 And so an engagement manager, as a person, some of the best, would have 00:21:45.467 --> 00:21:51.394 a lot of the same skill set that, not all, but a lot, as the architect. 00:21:52.254 --> 00:21:53.864 Except the goals are different. 00:21:54.334 --> 00:21:55.354 That's the key thing. 00:21:55.574 --> 00:21:59.084 And so when an engagement manager walks in the room, as Corey was saying, they're 00:21:59.094 --> 00:22:00.294 going to sit down and be like, alright, 00:22:00.864 --> 00:22:02.344 CJ: little 00:22:02.574 --> 00:22:02.844 Chris: there? 00:22:02.844 --> 00:22:03.844 And what's our plan? 00:22:03.904 --> 00:22:06.674 And how are we going to plan this out in a, 00:22:06.784 --> 00:22:08.264 CJ: on 00:22:08.504 --> 00:22:11.754 Chris: almost of, all right, we're going to do this at this time. 00:22:11.974 --> 00:22:15.854 How are we going to do this then this after that planning out events, 00:22:15.864 --> 00:22:20.634 planning out each of the phases, the milestones , they're that balance between, 00:22:20.754 --> 00:22:24.294 an architect and a project manager, like they're not a PM, they're an EM. 00:22:24.324 --> 00:22:27.904 So they're kind of an architect's engagement manager, right? 00:22:28.664 --> 00:22:31.034 Duke: I would say you could have people that don't share the 00:22:31.034 --> 00:22:33.014 skill sets at all be successful. 00:22:33.034 --> 00:22:36.524 Like, for me, the engagement manager is the person whose head is going to roll. 00:22:36.734 --> 00:22:37.384 If the thing fails. 00:22:37.555 --> 00:22:40.315 they're ultimately responsible for the success of the thing 00:22:40.585 --> 00:22:42.455 from the delivery side, 00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:46.410 Chris: Uh, you know, I. 00:22:46.815 --> 00:22:50.842 Duke: versus the architect is you can establish something that is architected 00:22:50.869 --> 00:22:53.682 ? And built exquisitely, but still not, 00:22:54.224 --> 00:22:55.059 CJ: was 00:22:55.462 --> 00:22:58.562 Duke: succeed well enough, because it's more than just, 00:22:58.562 --> 00:23:00.242 the design of the solution? 00:23:00.842 --> 00:23:02.452 It's did we train people? 00:23:02.532 --> 00:23:04.042 Did we document it well enough? 00:23:04.612 --> 00:23:06.072 Did we do it in time? 00:23:06.302 --> 00:23:08.562 Did we bother reporting on the outcomes? 00:23:08.942 --> 00:23:13.863 Which can all stand outside of the architecture of the solution. 00:23:14.105 --> 00:23:16.945 Chris: This is actually an interesting conversation because it also talks a 00:23:16.945 --> 00:23:19.285 little bit about scalability of a team. 00:23:19.552 --> 00:23:23.232 I outlined this for a previous organization that I was at because 00:23:23.872 --> 00:23:27.392 sometimes you'll have a project that is so small that you're not 00:23:27.392 --> 00:23:30.482 going to have an EM or a TC and you're just going to be everything. 00:23:31.032 --> 00:23:31.432 CJ: Yep. 00:23:32.352 --> 00:23:32.932 Chris: And 00:23:33.102 --> 00:23:34.237 Duke: people that have to do that, right? 00:23:34.237 --> 00:23:35.552 We're pragmatists here. 00:23:36.132 --> 00:23:40.912 Chris: well, it's interesting because I would say just from my 00:23:40.912 --> 00:23:42.222 experience and what I've seen. 00:23:42.888 --> 00:23:48.588 really good architect ultimately can act as architect, EM, TC, 00:23:48.588 --> 00:23:51.628 and developer, whatever roles basically you need on a project. 00:23:51.808 --> 00:23:55.465 They can, they usually don't like to, but they can. 00:23:56.215 --> 00:23:57.665 And what then happens is. 00:23:58.450 --> 00:24:01.390 Is things start to break out from there. 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:05.150 So you'll usually after that end up getting an engagement manager 00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:09.030 and an architect, and then that EM breaks off and starts taking over 00:24:09.030 --> 00:24:11.110 some of those project related roles. 00:24:11.525 --> 00:24:15.315 Like you were mentioning, Rob, and the key thing there is though that 00:24:15.315 --> 00:24:19.930 I've found, you know, you can have a successful EM without being a 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:22.940 good EM in this particular scenario. 00:24:22.990 --> 00:24:28.069 And that's, an interesting, setup because you're not at scale at that point. 00:24:28.085 --> 00:24:29.835 you're, it's just an architect and an EM. 00:24:30.195 --> 00:24:33.235 And so, since the architect is used to doing all of these 00:24:33.235 --> 00:24:36.422 roles oftentimes, they'll pick up whatever the EM's not doing. 00:24:36.422 --> 00:24:36.482 Thank you. 00:24:36.892 --> 00:24:42.122 So the EM could just be a focus on, hey, where are we going, what are we doing, 00:24:42.182 --> 00:24:44.212 reporting where we're at, etc, etc. 00:24:44.242 --> 00:24:45.962 And the project could go swimmingly. 00:24:46.687 --> 00:24:46.927 Duke: Hmm. 00:24:46.942 --> 00:24:50.492 Chris: The problem comes in then, is when you scale that up, that 00:24:50.512 --> 00:24:51.622 EM is going to start to fail. 00:24:52.322 --> 00:24:55.399 CJ: Okay. 00:24:55.742 --> 00:24:57.602 Chris: for certain things to just be done, like the 00:24:57.602 --> 00:24:58.962 documentation you were mentioning. 00:24:59.652 --> 00:25:03.132 Often, I see that that's actually expected from the architect. 00:25:03.312 --> 00:25:07.122 Now, not the actual documentation, but the planning of that, the 00:25:07.122 --> 00:25:10.132 rollout of how are we going to document, where is that going to be? 00:25:10.592 --> 00:25:14.352 A lot of the engagement managers that I've met with and that I've worked with 00:25:14.772 --> 00:25:18.412 just kind of assume that the architect is going to take on all of that role. 00:25:19.022 --> 00:25:21.317 And so, It's interesting. 00:25:21.367 --> 00:25:27.017 And that's why I was kind of starting out with a good EM versus a successful 00:25:27.457 --> 00:25:31.277 EM, because I think those are two different things, technically. 00:25:32.217 --> 00:25:37.757 CJ: Yeah, I, you know, I liked it. 00:25:39.117 --> 00:25:44.530 Yeah, I like distinguishing between, a good EM and a successful EM. 00:25:44.540 --> 00:25:44.800 Right. 00:25:44.810 --> 00:25:44.840 Okay. 00:25:44.850 --> 00:25:45.420 Because. 00:25:45.475 --> 00:25:48.755 Duke: saying that there can be successful EMS that are not good EMS? 00:25:49.105 --> 00:25:49.855 Chris: Absolutely. 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:50.540 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:51.860 --> 00:25:54.720 think you could be successful without being good at your job in a lot, a lot 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:57.420 of different places in this ecosystem. 00:25:58.155 --> 00:25:59.045 Chris: Absolutely. 00:25:59.329 --> 00:25:59.549 Duke: You guys are 00:25:59.569 --> 00:25:59.759 CJ: I mean, 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:02.209 Duke: to walk that back for me and explain it to me like I'm five. 00:26:04.669 --> 00:26:09.045 CJ: so when I show up on a project, And I'm not the first line, right? 00:26:09.045 --> 00:26:11.315 So somebody's already implemented service now. 00:26:11.572 --> 00:26:14.622 And I come in and they started telling me about this, you know, person 00:26:14.632 --> 00:26:17.739 who helped them, build out their system and blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:26:17.929 --> 00:26:19.139 And they're super happy with them. 00:26:19.139 --> 00:26:23.369 And they wish, they just really wish that person was available now to come back 00:26:23.369 --> 00:26:27.709 and do this thing, but they had too many projects and so they weren't available. 00:26:27.889 --> 00:26:28.909 And so that's why I'm here. 00:26:29.009 --> 00:26:32.819 And then, you know, I'm like, okay, so that person was very successful and, 00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:34.919 phase one, then I get into the instance. 00:26:34.919 --> 00:26:35.289 Right. 00:26:35.844 --> 00:26:40.530 And there are no best practices followed, from a development perspective, right? 00:26:40.540 --> 00:26:44.050 there's custom apps built that, , duplicate, , internal functionality, 00:26:44.280 --> 00:26:49.880 , all things like , that person was not a good, you know, resource, right. 00:26:49.900 --> 00:26:53.760 But they were successful in that their customer was happy, right. 00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:55.950 And their customer would love to have them back. 00:26:56.450 --> 00:26:59.460 But you know, when it comes to me, having to work on top of what 00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:01.330 they did, no, they weren't good. 00:27:01.534 --> 00:27:02.714 That's how I look at it. 00:27:03.034 --> 00:27:07.084 Chris: How many projects are we seeing now that have this back to 00:27:07.414 --> 00:27:11.254 what are they calling it now back to baseline back to, , out of the box? 00:27:11.544 --> 00:27:16.284 , Implementations because of how the implementations were originally done. 00:27:16.804 --> 00:27:20.994 But looking back on those, do you feel that a lot of those felt 00:27:20.994 --> 00:27:22.274 they were successful at the time? 00:27:22.683 --> 00:27:26.056 And so I think that's, exactly, and, and that's kind of 00:27:26.241 --> 00:27:30.171 Duke: like I'm not sure like I've been on both sides that fight. 00:27:30.961 --> 00:27:33.381 , I've come in the middle where things are being deployed and 00:27:33.381 --> 00:27:34.871 I was like sounding the alarm. 00:27:34.871 --> 00:27:38.151 Um, And I've been the person that cleans it up. 00:27:38.561 --> 00:27:41.791 but I, get the sense that customers don't come up that thinking 00:27:41.791 --> 00:27:43.491 like, yes, that was awesome. 00:27:44.001 --> 00:27:49.181 And then get to a point a few years later where it's, oh, no, that was not awesome. 00:27:49.211 --> 00:27:49.971 It's such a big problem. 00:27:49.971 --> 00:27:50.921 We have to greenfield. 00:27:51.281 --> 00:27:53.101 I think the best that they end up with. 00:27:53.208 --> 00:27:57.891 At the start is, Oh, we went with the devil that we knew, or we 00:27:57.891 --> 00:28:01.011 picked the lesser of two evils, or our back was against the wall. 00:28:01.011 --> 00:28:02.301 We had to do it this way. 00:28:03.551 --> 00:28:05.351 then it's just kind of like, well, we're suffering with the 00:28:05.361 --> 00:28:06.951 consequences in the short term. 00:28:07.001 --> 00:28:09.961 And then that pain just grows and grows and grows in the long term. 00:28:10.555 --> 00:28:12.375 Chris: I, I, I've seen those, absolutely. 00:28:12.975 --> 00:28:14.035 No, I've seen those. 00:28:14.035 --> 00:28:14.815 Absolutely. 00:28:15.005 --> 00:28:17.165 But I just I don't think that's that's all of them. 00:28:17.165 --> 00:28:20.335 Or maybe even most of them necessarily. 00:28:20.815 --> 00:28:23.335 I've seen a number of them that that they walked out with. 00:28:23.335 --> 00:28:25.845 So they got what they asked for. 00:28:26.155 --> 00:28:26.855 And I think. 00:28:27.235 --> 00:28:29.215 Maybe we need to go back to what is success. 00:28:29.550 --> 00:28:30.520 Duke: Oh yeah, for sure. 00:28:30.530 --> 00:28:34.690 Getting what you asked for is not, that's a huge gray area. 00:28:34.805 --> 00:28:37.915 Chris: so feeling like you're successful, it may be different than 00:28:37.925 --> 00:28:41.355 being successful and I think that's the other thing in the ecosystem like, 00:28:41.965 --> 00:28:46.075 so if the client feels like they're successful at the outset, or if the 00:28:46.075 --> 00:28:48.365 implementer feels like they're successful. 00:28:48.790 --> 00:28:49.040 Duke: Yeah. 00:28:49.040 --> 00:28:50.640 I don't really care what the implementer feels. 00:28:51.245 --> 00:28:51.605 Chris: Well, 00:28:52.600 --> 00:28:53.320 Duke: Like, I don't. 00:28:53.465 --> 00:28:55.235 Chris: off by the engagement manager, right? 00:28:55.495 --> 00:28:57.995 So the EM, the EM is going to be the implementer. 00:28:58.145 --> 00:29:00.355 So it's how they feel if they are successful or not. 00:29:00.755 --> 00:29:01.145 Right? 00:29:01.365 --> 00:29:06.485 that's really where I'm going, trying to circle back to here is ultimately 00:29:07.025 --> 00:29:13.445 success, I think is probably too variable or too subjective for us to 00:29:13.445 --> 00:29:15.355 say, is someone successful or not? 00:29:15.355 --> 00:29:17.595 Because someone's gauge of success. 00:29:18.020 --> 00:29:20.500 Is going to be variable in this case. 00:29:20.810 --> 00:29:25.000 but ultimately we have best practices now, especially so we can gauge what 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.160 is good and not necessarily what is bad, but just what is not good. 00:29:29.543 --> 00:29:29.943 CJ: Yeah, 00:29:30.073 --> 00:29:30.323 Chris: sense. 00:29:30.373 --> 00:29:30.433 Silence. 00:29:30.883 --> 00:29:34.693 CJ: no, it does to me and I think also what we have to are the 00:29:34.693 --> 00:29:36.063 stories that we tell ourselves. 00:29:36.393 --> 00:29:38.793 When you make a decision as a business, right? 00:29:38.793 --> 00:29:41.553 You make several, , decision points that come into this, right? 00:29:41.553 --> 00:29:42.833 Like, yeah, costs, right? 00:29:42.843 --> 00:29:46.453 You thinking about availability, you think about, whatever else, right? 00:29:46.453 --> 00:29:48.283 And those things, require like some trade offs. 00:29:48.293 --> 00:29:51.960 And I think sometimes, businesses land on some optimal decisions, 00:29:52.110 --> 00:29:53.750 For a number of different reasons. 00:29:53.780 --> 00:29:58.110 And then the outcomes that they get, they tell themselves a story about it, right? 00:29:58.110 --> 00:30:00.100 To make them feel better, make themselves feel better. 00:30:00.100 --> 00:30:00.530 Right? 00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:04.780 And so if I went in here knowing that I wanted a kick, but service now 00:30:04.790 --> 00:30:08.270 implementation, but I only had budget for. 00:30:08.394 --> 00:30:12.079 a guy fresh out of high school, I'm going to write this narrative that 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.179 what I got was amazing no matter what. 00:30:14.179 --> 00:30:14.339 Right. 00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:17.093 Because, I, I got what I could afford essentially. 00:30:17.223 --> 00:30:17.443 Right. 00:30:17.443 --> 00:30:19.123 And so some, right. 00:30:19.123 --> 00:30:22.279 And so some organizations will, tell this or someone will be, just 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:23.559 like, yeah, no, this was a bad idea. 00:30:23.569 --> 00:30:25.009 I shouldn't have actually done this. 00:30:25.009 --> 00:30:26.459 we should have just kept Excel, right. 00:30:26.459 --> 00:30:29.729 Because it wasn't worth getting this platform and then, mangling it. 00:30:29.729 --> 00:30:30.179 And now it's. 00:30:30.409 --> 00:30:33.479 Like unusable, but we got to use it because we bought it sort of thing. 00:30:33.643 --> 00:30:37.733 I guess the point I, it was that I was just basically co signing what you just 00:30:37.733 --> 00:30:40.653 said, Chris, about it all being like success, sometimes being subjective. 00:30:42.263 --> 00:30:42.763 Chris: Absolutely. 00:30:42.963 --> 00:30:44.803 that was an interesting roundabout. 00:30:45.663 --> 00:30:48.793 Duke: that was good and it got us to 34 minutes of record, so 00:30:50.233 --> 00:30:51.743 CJ: You know, it's so funny, right? 00:30:51.743 --> 00:30:54.043 Sitting out here had no idea what we're really going to talk about. 00:30:54.043 --> 00:30:57.373 We were like, yeah, Chris, we're going to ask you like how you got started 00:30:57.413 --> 00:30:58.933 and we're going to go from there. 00:30:59.283 --> 00:30:59.703 Right. 00:31:01.293 --> 00:31:02.733 Duke: that's just how we do it here, man. 00:31:02.733 --> 00:31:03.623 That's our shtick. 00:31:04.028 --> 00:31:05.148 CJ: That is our stick 00:31:05.923 --> 00:31:06.613 Chris: Well, and 00:31:06.988 --> 00:31:08.888 CJ: way away from how you started. 00:31:08.888 --> 00:31:09.538 It's so awesome. 00:31:10.643 --> 00:31:13.693 Chris: well, you know, and feel free to cut this next part out, but 00:31:13.693 --> 00:31:17.983 just so you're aware and you got some information of where some of 00:31:17.983 --> 00:31:19.393 what I was saying was coming from. 00:31:19.673 --> 00:31:23.683 So when it comes down to it, I was working with an organization recently 00:31:23.693 --> 00:31:27.123 that focused on state implementations. 00:31:27.793 --> 00:31:32.893 And they had a particular set of project managers who had. 00:31:33.026 --> 00:31:36.886 done project management for other implementations, never on service now. 00:31:37.616 --> 00:31:40.956 And the general idea was a good project manager can implement anything. 00:31:41.304 --> 00:31:47.817 I don't necessarily disagree if all you're going to be is a note taker and whatnot. 00:31:48.267 --> 00:31:51.477 But my problem is, I don't think that that's what a good project manager is. 00:31:52.357 --> 00:31:56.317 A good project manager is a facilitator and they go a little bit farther. 00:31:56.327 --> 00:31:59.609 And I think that's, , one of the key problems when, We're walking 00:31:59.609 --> 00:32:04.559 into these engagements, a project manager or an engagement manager 00:32:04.629 --> 00:32:08.309 is going to say, all right, who is going to be our scrum master? 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:09.069 Is it me? 00:32:09.409 --> 00:32:10.639 Is it the architect? 00:32:10.699 --> 00:32:13.189 Is it someone else, who is going to fill these roles? 00:32:13.199 --> 00:32:16.749 So that way we ensure that the project as a whole moves forward versus 00:32:16.749 --> 00:32:19.599 just assuming, all right, well, architect, what, what are we doing? 00:32:20.349 --> 00:32:24.189 I can't tell you how many projects I've walked into where we meet 00:32:24.189 --> 00:32:27.852 and the EM just starts it off with saying, all right, what are we doing? 00:32:28.112 --> 00:32:32.082 And they have no, no plan at that point as it's starting. 00:32:32.682 --> 00:32:33.462 And so 00:32:33.597 --> 00:32:38.597 CJ: Silence. 00:32:38.612 --> 00:32:43.222 Chris: come in and the best engagement managers that I've ever found have a 00:32:43.222 --> 00:32:47.139 lot of the same skillset, even some of the technical skills, honestly, the 00:32:47.199 --> 00:32:51.472 absolute best engagement managers I've ever had, I've been able to give work to. 00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.109 They've actually come in and, facilitated the project, but I've also been able to 00:32:57.109 --> 00:33:00.399 say, Hey, can you go build out this SLA workflow now, this was years ago, right? 00:33:00.469 --> 00:33:01.429 and they, they did it. 00:33:01.502 --> 00:33:05.482 and that person is still in our ecosystem right now and he's a buddy of mine 00:33:05.632 --> 00:33:09.959 and it was one of the worst projects I've ever been to be perfectly honest. 00:33:10.049 --> 00:33:10.389 but. 00:33:10.547 --> 00:33:14.317 as that went, he was one of the best engagement managers I ever worked with. 00:33:14.667 --> 00:33:17.247 And that's why I started off saying that I really believe that the 00:33:17.257 --> 00:33:20.421 best have a common skillset versus, 00:33:21.521 --> 00:33:23.707 CJ: Okay. 00:33:24.171 --> 00:33:27.537 Chris: otherwise, honestly, if you have a team, that's very different, are they 00:33:27.537 --> 00:33:28.787 really going to work that well together? 00:33:30.029 --> 00:33:31.548 CJ: It's 00:33:31.548 --> 00:33:33.928 Duke: How different is the assembly line worker at a Tesla 00:33:33.928 --> 00:33:35.858 factory from the marketing team? 00:33:36.455 --> 00:33:40.045 they can't inter swap because their necessary core skills 00:33:40.075 --> 00:33:41.825 are so different and they don't 00:33:41.870 --> 00:33:42.580 Chris: do they work day to 00:33:42.645 --> 00:33:43.805 Duke: they don't do the same job. 00:33:44.600 --> 00:33:45.920 Chris: but do they work day to day together? 00:33:46.370 --> 00:33:48.090 That's not a team I would say. 00:33:48.395 --> 00:33:50.525 Duke: possibly there could be somebody from manufacturing, from 00:33:50.525 --> 00:33:51.195 design, you know what I mean? 00:33:51.195 --> 00:33:55.248 Like, well, let's say, let's take two other roles where they have very close 00:33:55.268 --> 00:33:57.508 proximity, like a developer and a PM. 00:33:57.732 --> 00:34:01.512 the project doesn't get any better because the PM is a merely adequate service. 00:34:01.512 --> 00:34:06.392 Now, admin, like, every minute the PM spends outside of managing cost, 00:34:06.402 --> 00:34:11.255 schedule, scope and risk is a minute wasted versus the developer taking time 00:34:11.255 --> 00:34:16.575 out to manage cost, schedule, scope, risk instead of write code, assess code. 00:34:16.882 --> 00:34:18.822 Like, those 2 domains don't overlap. 00:34:19.124 --> 00:34:21.854 Chris: my point is not necessarily that they have to do the job, 00:34:22.184 --> 00:34:23.344 but understanding the job. 00:34:23.354 --> 00:34:27.074 Actually, your first example is actually a pretty good example, I 00:34:27.074 --> 00:34:30.284 think, because in my case, because. 00:34:30.974 --> 00:34:34.744 Look at the assembly line worker, the person who's putting something together 00:34:34.754 --> 00:34:36.524 on the assembly line versus marketing. 00:34:37.304 --> 00:34:40.304 In truth, those two people are probably going to have very little 00:34:40.334 --> 00:34:42.174 in common, very little contact. 00:34:43.034 --> 00:34:47.954 I would not say that they were really a team, but as you go up in the level, 00:34:48.184 --> 00:34:53.024 as you go up in the role there, now you've got the assembly line manager who 00:34:53.024 --> 00:34:57.384 may have to manage a little bit about how successful his assembly line is. 00:34:58.084 --> 00:35:02.744 Or how is that actually marketed and talk to about to other people? 00:35:02.954 --> 00:35:06.364 They may actually have that interaction with marketing. 00:35:06.554 --> 00:35:10.084 And so because they're their skill set or in theory their skill 00:35:10.084 --> 00:35:13.674 set, but because they're their goals at that point, their focus. 00:35:14.089 --> 00:35:17.429 Aligns with that of what marketing is also doing. 00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:21.916 They slowly move together and they have more in common. 00:35:22.006 --> 00:35:25.343 And so that's really what I'm talking about here as a team. 00:35:25.393 --> 00:35:30.313 If, you have a PM who has no experience with service now with the platform 00:35:30.313 --> 00:35:33.953 itself, no understanding of what's going to happen or how things are 00:35:33.953 --> 00:35:38.643 supposed to be done versus someone who has some of that baseline 00:35:38.863 --> 00:35:41.053 administration or implementation skills. 00:35:41.236 --> 00:35:43.976 and being able to talk to a customer and to their development 00:35:43.976 --> 00:35:45.863 team in that particular way. 00:35:46.055 --> 00:35:49.705 just, from my experience, you're going to have a far better project and far more 00:35:49.705 --> 00:35:54.895 cohesiveness in that team with the team that understands everything together. 00:35:56.190 --> 00:35:59.430 CJ: Well, Chris, I just wanna say this has been an amazing conversation. 00:36:00.570 --> 00:36:02.880 , uh, you know, I totally did not know what to expect. 00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:06.750 You know, always good talking to you and, uh, man, this one's, this 00:36:06.750 --> 00:36:09.890 one's been great, so definitely I appreciate you joining us on the show, 00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:12.610 Duke: It has been great, it's a lot of what we can fill 40 minutes and 00:36:12.620 --> 00:36:14.480 not even think about it beforehand. 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:17.840 It's just like turn on the record button and stop at 40. 00:36:19.770 --> 00:36:20.800 So thanks for that Chris. 00:36:21.264 --> 00:36:24.034 Chris: glad to talk to you guys and Hope you guys have a great weekend. 00:36:24.242 --> 00:36:25.452 Duke: Alright folks, thanks for watching. 00:36:25.452 --> 00:36:26.272 We'll see you on the next one.