Welcome to Wake Up Excited.
In this episode I talk with Jessica Hische.
Jessica is a creative powerhouse.
She's created an illustrated children's books, designed postage stamps,
done lettering for West Anderson movies, improved countless logos,
and her new venture is invoicing and payment software for creative
professionals called Studio Works.
Jessica and I go way back and from the moment I met her, I
knew we were kindred spirits.
She is energetic and multidisciplinary excitable, and is one of the few people
that I really feel shares my weird blend of both sincerity and goofiness.
So, uh, I loved our conversation.
We discussed a lot of things.
We talked about using positivity and enthusiasm to fight all the
negativity engulfing our world.
We talked about ADHD and mental health.
We talked about balancing our personal responsibilities with our
responsibilities to the world at large.
We talked about engaging with and improving your local community.
We talked about creativity, breadth, and depth and creativity
over time, and a whole lot more.
Before we get into our conversation, I wanted to say that Wake Up
Excited is a real labor of love and is totally self-funded.
So if you enjoy these conversations and you want to support the
show, support me and my work.
I'd love it if you checked out our online courses bradfrost.com/courses.
We have courses on design tokens, atomic design with a whole bunch more on the way.
And we're really committed to helping the world's designers and developers
and anyone making websites and apps really level up their skills.
So I'd love it if you checked out our courses at bradfrost.com/courses.
Now, without further ado, here's my conversation with Jessica Hische.
Brad: Jessica.
Hi.
Jessica Hische: How's it going?
Brad: to converse?
Jessica Hische: I am ready to converse.
Brad: what are you excited about?
What are, what has you waking up excited?
What'd you wake up excited this morning about?
Jessica Hische: Well, a couple of things.
I went skiing this weekend and it was epic.
And now I am really excited to be a skier.
Um, I skied growing up and I haven't really had a chance to go very much
'cause I have three children and they have varying degrees of enthusiasm for sport.
Uh, but they all, all three of 'em did all day lessons and they all
hung out and me and Russ got to ski all day for two whole days in a row.
And I was feeling super cool about it and it made me wanna go out
and I'm gonna buy myself skis.
I'm a grownup.
I don't change sizes now so I can own skis.
And I bought season passes for next year.
'cause they're super cheap if you buy them the year before.
And yeah, so that's one thing that's my li that's my life thing I'm excited about.
my work thing I'm excited about is, um.
I've been building this thing called Studio Works with my friend Chris Shiflet.
And, uh, Sean and Nick are two super bro developer folks.
And, uh, it's been epic and really fun to work on and I feel like my brain
is now, I'm like, you know that meme where it's like the like shriveled
head guy and then it's bigger and then it's like self-actualization guy.
I feel like that's.
Me, uh, and uh, and then I launched this week a, online community
for it that I didn't tell anyone about before I launched it.
So it was like a surprise.
And that's been super fun.
And there's already like three, like almost 400 people in it and
it's been really active and we're doing like Zoom hangs and people are
sharing resources and posting events and stuff and it's really cool.
I'm just really happy.
So I just wanna get a bunch of students in there so I can just be
everybody's big sister and just be answering all their little questions
Brad: Beautiful.
You figured it out.
Jessica Hische: I know, everyone's like, what do you do to mentor people?
And my answer is always very wishy-washy and being like, well, I talk at
conferences and I answer people's emails.
And so, uh, I feel like now I can have a bit more of a direct line
towards helping people, which is nice.
I am also excited to just make a very casual, fun place to hang out on the
internet so that it doesn't have to be in the places where everyone feels
they have to be in performative mode.
cause there's not really good casual hangs.
And you know, even on all the fun, uh, texty places like Blue Sky and
all that, everyone's like kind of bummed out and wants to talk about
being bummed out and wants to talk about being worried about stuff.
And I just wanna hang out and not be bummed out for a little while.
That's my goal.
Brad: if I were to run my own conversations through an AI modeler and
to make it sound like Jessica Hische I would say the exact same thing as you.
There's a reason why I wanted you to come on this show, because I think
we're wired very, very, very similarly.
I think that that, uh, our, our conversations that have now spanned.
Over, I think a decade or no, like
Jessica Hische: Well, probably close.
Probably close to two decades.
Yeah.
Brad: what's wild is what you just described.
I wrestle with this and I'm curious to get your take on it because I wrestle
with it because on one hand everything you just described sounds almost
like charmingly, simple and naive.
But I think we understand that there is a deep, level of
profundity underneath all of that,
Jessica Hische: my big like ethos of the times and has been, you know, since
2016 basically is we all, especially us the like internet generation.
I got really excited about always be thinking on like a global
scale, like global community, global reach, global everything.
But, and then when you think about problems in the world, you're
always thinking like, we need to attack it from like the top down.
And then that just like is so intimidating and doesn't really work and mostly just
makes people crumble and feel upset and everybody forgets that actually
just like the small positive things that you can do, including just like
protecting your own mental health and helping other people protect theirs.
That ends up making an actual difference in the world because
people that are crushed by.
Depressing things or full of anxiety about the estate of everything.
What they don't do is take any action to make it better.
They just crawl into a hole and feel bad.
And that's, I mean, that's kind of the default way to do it, but if you feel
like resort like full of resources and you feel capable, you're much
more likely to go, oh man, you know, like, I'm done with my work right now.
What can I do to like do a helpful thing or make a thing that like impacts
other people or donate to a thing or volunteer for a thing or whatever.
Like you need to feel whole in order to do those things.
And so I think it's actually just really important to make people focus
on positive local community stuff instead of just spending all of their
time looking at the big picture doom and gloom, because there's always big
picture doom and gloom to look at.
Brad: Yeah.
And, and that big picture, doom and gloom is a relatively new phenomenon.
Like the fact that in between all of our cat memes are slotted in pictures
of a children's hospital getting bombed and then here's another cat
meme, like, like it's messed up.
It's like super messed up.
So we have it, it's kind of no wonder why we are so scrambled up and, and
just absolutely ripped apart mentally, and that, that that guilt, that that
overwhelming crushing guilt that just is nothing but shed energy.
It just vibrates out.
It just burns off into the ether.
That's like, that's how I view it.
It's just this, this anxious, vibrating energy that doesn't go anywhere.
It doesn't do anything.
It's just, it's
Jessica Hische: Totally.
Yeah.
Brad: It's
Jessica Hische: I mean, I think we all, we all like know people and
like family members that like watch too much news and they like see it
as a positive to be so informed.
But to me it's like if that information is not translating
to action, like what is it doing?
You know, like if all you're doing is absorbing all the ills of the
world and it's not translating to action, you're basically just
like punishing yourself, you know?
So it's almost like you have to control what you let in so that you
can actually still maintain the ability to do something about it, you know?
I was at an event recently called um, Paradiso, which is put on
by one of the founders of Off.
Stefan Sagmeister gave a talk there, and I've seen him talk a million, billion
times, but it was a talk about, a recent, like project sabbatical project
that he did called now is better.
and he basically just because so many people around him were talking about
how we're living in terrible times and all these terrible things were
happening, he decided to sort of do a research project about like, what is
terrible, like, like, you know, like.
Let's look at the data of like all of the stuff.
And it basically is just like, now is the best possible time to exist.
And the thing that was really interesting about it is he was on
like a, uh, a podcast or like the news interview or something and they were
like, yeah, but how do you, people in Ukraine probably feel about that?
And he was like, yeah, well what if you're being like actively bombed?
Obviously, like it's hard to say like, now's the best time.
But what ended up happening is a bunch of folks in the Ukraine
reached out to him and asked him to like put on a show of this work.
And he said of all of the places that the show ended up being, the
best response was in the Ukraine.
'cause they just like needed hope and positivity so much.
And so, I mean that's just like amazing.
Like, I mean, it's one data point, but it's like really good
proof that like when you're.
You're the most receptive to like hope when you're going through
tough stuff, you know, like that's when you really reach for it.
That's why people get religious when they get cancer and all kinds of stuff.
You're like reaching out for like, what is the positive I can find in this?
Brad: and, and we need to be of the positive of the other end of the spectrum.
I feel like there's just been this overwhelming.
Focus the negative and even in the, the resistance to one side of the negative,
it's all, it continues to be negative.
and there's this, we need to be reminded of like fun and the joy and
the, the great things in life and, and laughter and, and all of, and
music and, and all of these things.
And deprive ourselves or we're like, I, I feel like the overwhelming majority
of people are like waiting for moment of calm to, to be able to claim
that or to be able to pursue that.
And it's like it ain't coming like you, it like,
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: say that there aren't mac macro level like ebbs and flows to things, but
like you have to create that for yourself.
No one else is going to give you permission to do that.
And I feel like people like, like us.
that is our kind of like mission or duty is to kind of help remind people of that.
I don't know if
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: same, but
Jessica Hische: Oh, totally.
there's two things.
One, I've been like workshopping the right way to say this quote, it
stems from that thing of Not being a person who's capable of actually being
like an on the ground world saver.
You know what I mean?
Like, I have three little kids.
I can't go to the protests and I can't be like, you know, doing a
lot of really active stuff, and I'm also like, des design feels like a
selfish discipline where you're just like helping people sell things.
You know?
Like it's all, it's all that.
but the, the thing that I, that I return to, which is very similar to what you're
talking about, is, and this is the kind of quote that I'm working on, uh, which
is that some people are born to save the world and some people are born to
show us why the world is worth saving.
And so it's like the same thing of like, you need to see the beauty in the world
in order to have the, like, fortitude to save it and, and the desire to save it.
'cause why would you wanna save a shitty place?
You know, like you have to believe this is a good place to save it.
Brad: there's So, I, I love that.
I love that.
You good, good work shopping there that, no, no notes.
Jessica Hische: There's also, you know, I, this is a weird thing,
but I have a strange appreciation for social media algorithms now.
you know, like everybody hates the algorithm, and the algorithm destroys
our lives and blah, blah, blah, blah.
But for me,
Brad: Mm-hmm.
Jessica Hische: thing that was a weird side effect of the algorithm is
that the algorithm favors negativity.
Right.
if you post about negative stuff, it's much more likely to pop to the top
of the charts just because it's like people wanna know about negative stuff.
We just have this like innate thing of like disaster looking and whatever.
And what happened is in early internet, everyone saw everything that you said.
So if you posted 10 things and eight of them were positive and two
of them were negative, people got a really good understanding about
what your life was like, right?
But now if you post those same 10 things, the likelihood of people
seeing the positive stuff is way less.
So they're much more likely to see the negative stuff and then get a
false idea of what your reality is.
So it actually changes the way that you.
Look at the things that you share because you're like, oh, if I share
these negative things too often or you know, like I won't say at all.
'cause I think it's important to share some, but it actually will
end up not only coloring your view of your own life, but also coloring
other people's view of your life.
And I think that it sort of forces you into this thing of looking at all
the positives and posting those, but not necessarily in like a, a way that
needs to be about projecting a falsity.
You know, it's actually about projecting what is the truth.
'cause the truth is actually that you had an overwhelming positive amount
of stuff to say, and the negative stuff was a small portion of that.
And so it makes you actually notice that a lot more.
Brad: you're describing an active resistance to the affordances
of these algorithms, right?
You, you are like, you are like, I will show them, and, and you're using it as
a, as a lens to be more conscious of your actions rather than just falling
prey to the affordances of those things, which is just, yeah, the negativity,
snowball, and like, yeah, we're all gonna dog pile on to, to get out there
and throw an overwhelmingly unabashed, enthusiastic, fun, funny thing that's a
freaking act of resistance right there.
Jessica Hische: I feel when you say like, enthusiasm too.
I love that word.
Um, because one of the things that has been really interesting about
becoming a grownup in the world is just.
The level of fucks you give dropping off.
And then you also just realize that things that you felt like allergic to
as a young person when you were like trying to like you were like really in
control, like trying to control your cool, you're like, I need to project
only this certain thing, whatever.
It just all goes away and, or at least it does for the few of us that have reached
that top of the pyramid feeling great.
Um, but like there were so many things.
That I would've seen as like dorky or cringe or whatever, that now I'm
like, anytime that I get like a cringe reaction in my body, it feels like a
moment where I have to do like personal work to like work through the cringe.
Instead of that, it's about like being anti, the other thing, it's actually
like I'm grateful for this, for pointing out this cringe reaction that I now
have to like work through and break up because it's bad to have that reaction.
And so when I see people in the world that have like zero, like cringe reaction, I'm
just like, these are the ascendant humans.
Like these are the ones that have made it to the top.
Yeah.
Brad: yes, yes.
That, that like.
The, the utmost sincerity.
Oh my God, you, you love this.
This movie that I think is this over the top, just explosion
fest, big budget, whatever.
But like, you, you love that.
And like, I love that.
You love that like, like that, that is making you happy.
And like, I don't give a shit about the nature of can I, can
I, you're like the perfect person since we're workshopping things.
and it is exactly what you're describing.
I have this idea for a big art installation in fact,
one second I got props.
this, I went to Goodwill Live, laugh, love, give, let
Jessica Hische: I love it.
Brad: be done in love.
Right?
Like, as letter art person, whatever, and, but it's, it's
exactly that level of cringe, We, we describe that shit as basic, right?
Live, laugh, love.
Ha ha.
It's a meme, it's a joke.
like what I've done back to like, those, those feelings of like, ah, yeah, Let's
all like, look at this stuff and laugh and then like, you pick at that and it's
like, what does this actually say here?
It's like, laugh, love, my God.
That's like some of the most profound shit that like, it's, it's the truth.
It's right in front of
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: Like it
Jessica Hische: I.
Brad: is.
So, so what I wanna do is I wanna do a go, go to all these Goodwills and
like, like round up all of the live laugh, love stuff, and I want to do
just like a giant fucking wall of it and
Jessica Hische: I love it.
Brad: do some cool stuff, like gutsy it up a little bit.
But it's just like, and that's the title of the piece is with utmost Sincerity.
And it's just like, recontextualizing, this stuff that like fell in.
Who, where did that go?
Like, jaded, cynical kind of horse.
Shitty.
Like, like let's, let's actually let people like things like,
let's actually celebrate that.
Like, like, uh, that's I think one of the, the, the most unfortunate side
effects of like the first generation of like social media is that there
ended up being this like cynicism that took root, that it's like, you
can't actually like something, or we can't, like, we gotta find the angle.
Like, let me, I don't like this being up here.
I gotta take it down a notch or two.
It's like, let's like who, who says, you know, like, when did
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: and how did we all agree to that?
Jessica Hische: one of the things that I feel like I am hopeful for with the
younger generations that I feel like I've seen a bit of, but I don't know if it's
like a regional thing, which is that it doesn't seem cool to be mean anymore.
when you meet kids that are like middle schoolers or in high school or
whatever, like I feel like I haven't seen a lot of like, oh yeah, they're
the cool kid because they're mean.
Like, if someone's mean, everyone kind of has like a, that person
must be going through some stuff, you know, like whatever.
And I love this, and I hope that that's not just like a Bay Area regional thing,
because obviously like I'm in a bubble.
And so it's a different, different situation here, but.
I don't know, like it was so cool to be mean when we were teenagers
and in our twenties and like the mean kids always seemed to like
rise to the top of the pile.
And if it's not cool to be mean anymore, that'd be great.
That'd be so great for everyone.
Brad: It would be interesting.
Like I, I, I genuinely don't know.
I I, I'm in my own little cul-de-sac bubble here outside of Pittsburgh when
all of the teenagers on our little street are like the sweetest, kindest people.
And I have no idea if like that's an anomaly or if that's, yeah.
Is that the exception or, or is that the role?
but I, but I would have to think there is some semblance of, let's
say like mental health being more of like a front and center thing that's
like a, like that's a live thing.
There's like, I think a lot more of like the psychology well,
positive psychology, but just an understanding of psychology in general.
Like it's no longer, like the first like hundred years of, of psychology was just
all like weird Freud stuff and like all this like very like pathological stuff.
And I feel like we are now living in a moment where kids are growing up with
like some, like, my daughter comes home from school, I'm sure your kids
are the same way, where it's like, there's some stuff that's just like
really good emotional intelligence stuff and just like good, like
holistic, like wellbeing kind of stuff.
And my
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: that that taught and there's, there's more of an awareness around it.
And there's, there also seems to be a bit more of like a counter, momentum swing
away from like helicopter parenting a little bit and like a, a real reckoning
with like, we kind of need kids to.
You know, develop and, and, and grow and, and learn how to be
resilient on their own rather than us trying to design that for them.
Um, so I don't know.
I maybe we're just optimistic and maybe like most
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: are like, no, everybody's still shitty.
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
They're like, no, the teenagers destroy everything and La
la, which is also true, so
Brad: guess you'll find out, you'll, you'll find out soon enough.
I'll find out soon enough and we'll report back.
what's like the biggest thing that your kids have, like, taught you about
the emotional landscape or the, the, the spiritual realm or like what?
Like, because the lens by which kids exist.
Jessica Hische: Mm-hmm.
Brad: talking about with just like enthusiasm and positivity
and boundlessness, and almost like a kind of a joyful naivety.
you're confronted with that every day, I, I say confronted, but whenever
you're exposed to that every day, that radically has changed me.
I don't, I don't know.
Like what, what sort of lessons you've learned from, from your kids.
Jessica Hische: I've got some really different personalities in
my household, so I. My youngest is like, I love everything and everyone,
I'm always happy about everything.
I just, I'm just here to party.
Like, that's his whole vibe.
the thing that I learned through him, which I already know in myself
'cause I am also this person, is that just like showing up in the
world with a smile on your face makes the world better for everyone.
It makes your, your life better and it makes everyone else's life better.
Because my oldest, who is not that, she definitely is much more introverted.
She like straight up, like will just be unresponsive to
adults that are talking to her.
So like if someone gives her a compliment or something, she just kind of stone
faces them and I'll like talk to her about it afterwards and be like, Hey,
you know, like it's okay for you to like give a response back or like show some
emotion in your face, like when people say a nice thing to you or whatever.
And then she was just like, what if I don't want to.
And I was like, it's totally fine.
You know, like, that's on you.
Uh, but she'll also like, we'll go to a, we went to like a craft fair or
whatever, and George, who's five will like walk up to some lady their booth and
be like, I love the earrings you make.
These are the most beautiful bracelets I've ever seen.
You know, like, and just be like really engaging with her.
And then she's just like, take them, take them all.
Like, she just like gives him stuff.
And then Ramona will walk away and be like, be like, how come
I didn't get any free stuff?
And people always give George free stuff.
And I was like, 'cause George looks at people and makes them feel good.
Like, if you walk out to people and make them feel nice,
they wanna give you things.
So like, even if that's not a natural thing that you wanna do,
know that that is a useful tool that you can have with other people.
And so that's been really interesting to sort of see that
play out in like real ways.
And then, um, my middle, is also a very different person.
Like he's also like a big goofball and a big clown or whatever,
but he's also crazy sensitive.
So he's both that like introverted sensitive kid, but also like a loud
performer, like always the jokester, like trying to like, you know,
be the, the, the show iest one.
And it's just been really interesting to see both my and Russ's personality
traits come out in different ways in them.
And then also basically both of us being like, well, I guess literally everyone
in the family has a DHD and just has a different flavor of it because we're
just seeing like, you see what the kids are doing and what they're going through
and being like, oh, that's that you have that version, and I have this version,
and that's why that one does that.
And so we're just, it's very, like, the thing that's really interesting is that
we feel like such a unit, like, you know, like I feel like any, we just like hang
out and everybody gets along really well.
And I think it's because we're all like.
Just neurodivergent in our own ways and so we all really get each other, you know?
And, uh, that's been really interesting to just like be in a household full
of people that kind of all have a similar, you know, affectation.
So
Brad: I mean, that's be I, and that's beautiful and like you have
your flavor of that and it's like everyone has their flavor of that.
Even if it's like, like some people I know, like entire families of
curmudgeons and it's like they're yeah.
Happily curmudgeony together.
And, there's something there where it's like you can just have that
unspoken, you all know you're, you're built the same, you're wired the
same, or you have your own, you know, equilibrium, your own like kind of
family organism kind of vibe, and you're just able to enjoy it, lean into it.
I think that's beautiful.
That's amazing.
So yeah, you, you have like a real stark contrast between.
Like unbounded enthusiasm and exuberance with this.
Like,
Jessica Hische: Gloomy teenager, basically.
Yeah.
Brad: yeah.
Wait till
Jessica Hische: We will see though, like, I think, I think the main, the
main thing that's good though is that she was born in this time to these
parents because we're, I think she's also just way low on the dopamine scale and
we're just gonna try to level her out.
And so we're in the process of doing that because it's very clear that like
all the, like she's just not happy because she just doesn't have enough
happy juice going on and just wants to eat candy all the time and doesn't
sleep very well and is moody blues and I just don't want her to be moody blues.
Brad: I love how you frame that, because we've used like, pretty
much the exact same thing.
It's like, like, Melissa's inner master's program to become a therapist, an arts
therapist, and like having been through what we've been through, we have like
this really, you know, acute sense of, of mental health and all of that stuff.
And so when we noticed those things that we're like, oh yeah, monitor it
for now, but like, eventually that's probably going to become a thing.
But at, but at the same time it's okay.
It's just, you know, it's, it's genes and, and it's wiring, but
it's like you could sort it out.
And the fact that there's this, like you said, like born at this
time to these people is such a gift.
And we, we talk about it all the time that it's like we know, not to
just be like, what's wrong with you?
Just, you know, sit down and shut up or, you know, like, don't be
Jessica Hische: Yeah,
Brad: crying.
Like it's no, like we, we know that there's like a lot going on and,
and, and that there are ways of, of being able to help and, and support
Jessica Hische: Also.
Brad: isn't,
Jessica Hische: Yeah, and also too,
Brad: lifelong
Jessica Hische: I, yeah, well, I feel like too, like, like medication was
viewed so differently in the nineties and 2000 and s than it is now.
And I, it's sort of, I can compare it to like, trying to do an unmedicated birth,
you know, like where you don't have a, um.
You know, you don't do the epidural or whatever.
Like, uh, a friend, I tried to to go about it that way with my first one
and it just like went, it was terrible.
And I had, I just had to lean in and a friend of mine was like,
let me just put it this way.
No one ever has a second baby without an epidural.
They might do it the first time and then the second time they're
like, Nope, let's just go for it.
And I think there's this like thing where we feel like we have to try the absolute
hardest way to do something first, because we see the medication as a cop
out when really it's like all of those hard things don't actually get you to,
it's like a constant maintenance cycle.
You know, like my mom also had like mental health stuff when I was growing up and
has dealt with like, she has very severe A DHD clearly, but she's undiagnosed and um,
had a bunch of depression and all kinds of things and she was like, yeah, the
only thing that worked for me was like.
Intensely exercising for two to four hours per day.
And I was like, who can do that?
You know, like, like, you know, like there are things you can do to like
solve the problem, like mostly where you can get yourself like 70 to 80%
there, but it involves like gargantuan lifestyle changes that don't necessarily
mesh with modern life or having a job or having kids and all that.
And so you do what you can to like mitigate things, but also like, I feel
like people just cut themselves off from the ability to actually like solve
these problems in a much more like easy way by just like trying out rebalancing
your brain chemicals, you know?
Because I think there's just this whole thing of like, yeah, I mean, I thought
for sure it was gonna totally, I.
Change who I like, change my personality or something.
And I just feel like, oh my God, look, I am like back to being my best
self that I was like before I started having crazy hormone problems or uh, or
like my best self when I wasn't being triggered by anxiety and was getting
great sleep and was doing whatever.
I'm not getting great sleep, but my brain is like in the same place as if I am.
But yeah.
Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, you, you are healthier.
It's like, it, it is, the, the analogy I use is it's eyeglasses, right?
And, and coming, coming back to the exercising two to four hours, it's like,
yeah, well, I might not need glasses if I just redesign my entire life to, to make
it so that I could just kind of see things if I just sort of stand so far away.
And if I,
Jessica Hische: And squint a certain way and yeah.
Brad: way and like, like.
And, and, and put this on my car in a big magnifying glass on my, like, it's
like, or just get some eyeglasses but it's like there's an uneven understanding
and appreciation for what this class of Dr It's, it's very misunderstood.
It's very stigmatized still, or whatever.
The stigma part, I don't understand.
The misunderstood part is fully understandable, because even the
people that make this stuff, they're like, how do, how do SSRIs work?
They're like,
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
I dunno.
Brad: okay.
Jessica Hische: happens.
Brad: they're
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: we have our theories.
Like we, you know, we, we think it's this.
So it's like, I, I understand maybe like a lack of understanding, but the, but
the, the, the more like stigma around it, it does feel, it feels generational.
It feels.
It there, there's a lot wrapped up in it, but at the same time, I'm hopeful
back to like the, the younger kids, I think that it's, it's not just
like slamming Ritalin in their mouth anymore, you know, just as a, as a,
you know, settle down kind of thing.
It's a, it seems like more deliberate and, and designed and whatever, but
Jessica Hische: I'm slamming Ritalin and it's great.
And so like the main thing being, uh, I didn't understand How, like, you
know, and I, I, it feels weird to like go and get my medicine now because
it is, it's a controlled substance and it's a big fucking pain in the
butt to get my prescription filled.
Like every time I go to the pharmacy,
Brad: part.
Jessica Hische: I hate it.
I have to call in every month and there's always shortages, but I can't
ask the pharmacy if they have it 'cause they're not allowed to tell me.
So sometimes I have to call, like my doctor has to send in prescriptions
to like eight different pharmacies until I find one that has it.
But it even feels like, then, like, I'm like, do you know what this does?
Like it, all that it does is make me not a hummingbird.
Like that's all that it does.
Like I, if I feel like I'm in a yoga class all day when I'm on it and when I'm not
on it, I'm like, Ooh, what about that?
Ooh, what about that?
No, what we should do, we should do that.
Oh, we should do that.
And it just like non-sequitur jump, jump junk I, I get that.
If you're not like us, uh, or me, then it makes you psychotically wired.
But like, I get way crazier of a wiry effect from caffeine
than I do from Ritalin.
Ritalin does not make me wired at all.
I don't get wired, but like, if I have two cups of coffee,
I'm like, like crazy buzzy.
Brad: It's so weird how it hits everybody differently too.
And my doctor was like, she's like this, uh, this, because I'm on Adderall xr.
And she's like, she's like, and we recently are, we're playing around with
putting like a second dose in uh, this might keep you up all night, or you might
sleep better than you've ever seen before.
Or maybe it has no change.
And it is just like, okay, sure, that's fine.
But I like, I like what you're saying that there is a, there, there's
like a clarity in your tendencies.
I 'cause like, it's not like a diminishment.
Of,
Jessica Hische: Mm.
Brad: skills.
And, and I wanna kind of pick at that too, because like it's been so fun
just kinda watching you from afar.
'cause like we, we kind of like year that was, like, let's say like late
2010, let's call it, I don't know.
we're there, we're kind of at like the same spot.
We're both like, you know, go, you know, and, and, and
Jessica Hische: Making stuff.
Let's do stuff.
Yeah.
Brad: things.
Yeah, yeah.
But, but like that, making stuff and making varied things
in different kinds of things.
Right.
And this is like an, it's an interesting thing that I'm sure you've heard about,
but curious to get your take on it as someone who has really benefited from
hummingbird approach to things is a gift.
Right?
It's like, it's a gift so long as it doesn't get in the way.
And that's what the medicine, in my view, like for, for me personally, the medicine
keeps the hummingbird moving towards actual feeders have actual nutrients
in it versus just like flitting around going here, there, and everywhere.
It's like it's a focusing effect, but it doesn't diminish the spirit.
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
To me, um, I, no, I feel the same way.
I think the one thing is.
In losing the hummingbird brain, I do lose a bit of the like, like this,
this, this, this, this, this, this.
If I'm like, on a real tear, like every now and then, I would get, basically
get in like a manic creative tear where I could just like, have a billion ideas
flying at me and, and a lot of them were like worth pursuing or they were
all contained within the same thing.
But that happens so rarely that it's not worth living my life for that.
You know what I mean?
Like when in the, in the prior days I was, when I could be in control of my
own time, I would just like hop from project, project, project, project to
like make, keep the, um, enthusiasm going.
And so like the whole procrast working thing was basically just
a big A DHD coping mechanism.
Um, but now that I'm a parent and my, and my work days are more contained
and I, and it's a little unpredictable about whether or not I can go into
that hyperfocus mode or not, I need to make sure that when I'm at my office
that I'm not being diverted because the diversions aren't helpful anymore.
Like, those are really helpful when you're working like 14 hours
a day and you can just like divert and then divert and then divert.
But when you're only working for like six to nine hours a day, then the,
the diversions are like an absolute wrench thrown into the whole thing.
And so.
Yeah.
I mean, and also too, like the, the other thing that I found is like, is similar to
the four hours of exercise thing, like.
My thing is I am so much less anxious if I can just like be in perpetual motion, like
working on stuff, you know, like that.
I always have something to do.
You know, I'm a very busy person.
I just have to like keep busy, keep busy, keep moving forward like a shark,
you know, like just have to keep moving.
Otherwise, I feel like I'm gonna die.
And when I don't have the capacity to do that all the time,
my anxiety builds up and so.
What, and that's because all that energy that I would've been spending
on all of those outlets is building up and doesn't have a place to go.
And so the taking a stimulant, like taking the Ritalin, what it does is it
dissipates that energy that's built up.
And so I think like.
If I could live, like there's probably a world in which I'm no longer on
stimulants when I'm not so on top of the kids or traveling or like whatever.
Like if I can just do what I want all the time, I probably don't need it as much.
But I feel like now what it really does is just help that energy disperse so that I,
that doesn't turn into horrible anxiety.
'cause like that's what it feels like to me.
And a friend of mine was like, 'cause I was kind of back and forth about
whether or not I should try stimulants and she was like, dude, don't, don't
sleep on how much it can impact anxiety.
Like if you're like an an anxious person.
It had the biggest impact for me in terms of anxiety more so than
taking S-S-R-I-S-N-R-I and I, and I found that to be really true.
Like, you know, like the, I definitely feel like the SNRI.
What that does is kind of like, not have me in these weird, like false
reality shifts where I like have a false belief about what's going on.
Because like every now and then you kind of like have that sort of like,
wait, what is, what was that about?
You know, like the, those kind of feelings and I, and those
just don't happen anymore.
And I think it's because I'm like way more leveled out because of the SNRI.
But in terms of just that like low hum of anxiety that kind of builds and builds
and builds, the, the stimulants are what?
Knock that out.
Like if I, if I'm feeling kind of like ugh in the afternoon and I
take a little boost of the Ritalin, I'm just like, ah, now I feel good.
Now I can do stuff.
Yeah.
Brad: Yeah.
No, that's, that's wild.
That's a, that, that was very, that was very descriptive and
like I, I was following along.
It's like that articulation of your inner energy levels, it's like, and
again, like every body is different and I think that that's always like
something that's like worth pointing out.
And that's yet another thing that I get frustrated with when it comes to
people talking about mental health is that they're like, Hey, I tried that.
Or even like therapy and stuff.
They're like, yeah, I tried that and.
Didn't work.
Uh, and it's like, well, on.
Like, it's like this, this binary kind of thing.
It's like, it's like you,
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: have to find the right, the equilibrium with, with anything, right?
Like it's, it's all about sort of balances and iterating over things in
order to get to a place where you're like feeling like your optimal self
and you owe that to yourself, right?
Like, I, I, again, like, I feel like a lot of the conversations that I have
with people that are or pushing back on that are like, they're like, no, but I
like wanna stay in that like, low hum anxiety state, or I wanna feel like that
energy's building up with nowhere to go.
And you're like, but do you like, it's, it's like, what,
Jessica Hische: Well, you know, it depends if it, if the way that it works
for them is that they're baking themself a coiled spring, and then they have
a place to release that coil, great.
Then yeah, I mean that's when it does feel like a superpower because it's
like that energy builds up and then you just constantly are outputting it.
But once you get older and you don't have the capacity to do that as much anymore.
Yeah.
I mean it's like a different thing.
And with therapy it's also like, like therapy as an adult is so
hard because our brains are like rigid stone structures, right?
We've like built these pathways over and over and over again.
We've walked the same roots over and over again in terms of our thought patterns.
So trying to like unmake those walkways is so fucking hard.
It's like, it's like you're in, it's like you're on a trail in the woods and
there's a trail that has been walked for centuries and you're now starting
to walk down a slightly different trail that has not been walked for centuries.
And of course, everything wants to divert down the centuries
long path for a very long time.
And it just takes so much time to build that new path.
And that's why like the whole, uh, psychedelic assisted stuff is really cool
because it does allow you to like make those deep new pathways much quicker.
yeah, I mean like, I loved therapy, but it took four years
to like unmake some bad mental
pathways of behaviors.
Like it was the slowest, most arduous, most not noticeable
thing in the whole world.
And it worked.
And it's like, because I did it, it's gonna stick 'cause I did the hard thing.
And the, and the pathways are there versus trying to like race to a good
answer and then it can just bounce right back to the, to the old ways.
But it's, I mean, who can commit to that?
It was like $175 a week for four years.
That's like, you know, it's like five or six grand a year.
You know, like it's not, nothing.
Like not everybody can do that,
Brad: and, and again and there, and there's very uneven results.
And it's, it's funny you brought up the psychedelic speak, whatever
you're talking about, the two to four hours of exercise the same thing.
It's like that's, that's immediately where my head went is it's like, oh
yeah, you could do years of talk therapy or going to meditate these intensive
multi-day meditation retreats and spend a year long, like years long practice.
It's like, or this way that hook will help you jump those neural canyons a lot fast.
Jessica Hische: I wish I
could have stuck doing more psychedelics because I did see this like outrageous
benefit when I first started doing it.
It's like I was so flat, like not like depressed, but just kind of like.
Everything just felt like a slog.
You know?
Like thi like just everything, you know?
I was just like, Ugh.
You know, like the kids ask you to play outside and you're like, Ugh.
Like the first reaction is, no thank you.
I just wanna sit here and do my own thing instead of like, wow, that sounds fun.
Of course, it's a beautiful day.
Like whatever.
Brad: Yeah.
Jessica Hische: When I started doing mushrooms pretty regularly,
I was just like, does anyone know how gorgeous trees are?
You know, like just even when, when I wasn't like, like in that space, it just
kind of filtered out into my whole life.
I was just full of wonder all of a sudden, and I would've been keep doing them.
But I had this issue I don't have like the best memory because I think
I went through some like tricky yucky stuff when I was a teenager, and I
just like don't have great recall for a lot of my, like young memories.
But what, but I have incredibly vivid dreams almost all the time.
Like my dreams are very real and I do a lot.
I know that I'm dreaming sometimes, you know, where I can be like, you
know, in the dream and I'm, I feel like I'm just watching it like a movie.
Um, yeah, it's like lucid dreaming.
I don't necessarily have control in the dream, but I'm like aware
that I'm dreaming and it's just because my sleep is like so yucky
that I'm sort of in REM a lot.
And what happened from the mushrooms?
And this wasn't like while on mushrooms.
This just happened for like weeks following.
Is that.
My brain started to mix in memories and details of memories into my vivid dreams.
So then I couldn't tell if the dream was like a thing that happened or if it
was a dream, and that felt really scary.
And so I was like, I need to stop doing this.
And that's when I went on SNRIs instead, I was just like, you know, regular
medicine is also great for managing your mental health and let's do that instead.
Brad: that's fascinating.
Do you feel that those experiences though, have had a staying power though?
Or like, are, are there like lessons learned from that phase that you,
when you like look at the trees now,
Jessica Hische: I think like there were a couple of experiences
that I had that were really good.
I never like had like a proper trip.
Like I only a couple of times, uh, got to the place of seeing like some visuals,
like I like, you know, kind of like holographic ledy world, which was great.
but I think it's more, I think it was more like understanding
that I was capable of joy, like that kind of joy again, you know?
And it didn't have to be because of like getting a little, like having a little
bit too much alcohol and feeling that like tipsy, like extroversion thing.
I was like, oh, like.
this is like straight up joyful wonder.
And the fact that you can experience that as an adult is amazing.
And I was like, I need to figure out how to have more of that.
Like, however that happens, because I think you kind of forget.
'cause like kids are always like, that's crazy.
Like for everything.
And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You just don't know yet.
Like, you know.
But yeah, I mean, it, it was, I do think that that stuck with me.
I think it, it made me feel like prioritizing that was a
real priority, you know, like.
That finding that was something I really needed to focus on.
it's sort of that thing of like when, when stuff's going weird mentally, you
don't really realize that, that it wasn't good until you're out of it and then
you're like, oh wow, that was actually worse than I thought that it was.
You know, like, and so once you're out of it, you're, you
have much more perspective.
And it's always so hard to know because it's such a slow build
to get to like the bad part.
And I think a lot of us get to a part that's bad, but,
but we're still functional.
Like you're still totally capable of like doing work and taking care
of your kids and doing whatever.
It's just you are just like a robot doing those things, you know?
It's just you're going through the motions and you're not doing
stuff because it makes you stoked.
You're just doing it because it's like another thing on your calendar.
And yeah, and it was really nice to get outta that mode.
Brad: that's great.
And I think, I think that that's really well said.
And w whether psychedelics or, or other ways, I think that
there are ways that adults can.
Find that perspective and, and, and evaluate, get outside of the, the normal
neural canyons, that normal path, uh, through the woods that, that we take.
and frankly I think like as I've grown older and reconnected with
things like music and art, I'm like, oh, that's what that is for.
That's what it's for.
Like I always was like, oh, I like to make pictures and I like to make music.
And that's fun.
I. And now I, what I'm realizing with especially like kind of coming outta
covid, going to those like first concerts post COVI, you are taken to
that place, that, that, that, that same place that you're describing
with, with psychedelics and there's like, it is, it is a real presence.
It is a real joy.
There's a sense of connectedness, there's a sense of elevation, there's a sense
of, of like, we're all standing in this room together, sharing this experience.
And after being robbed of that for several years, that hit me like a ton of bricks.
And, and just like you're saying to, to, to focus there is, I mean, why
we're talking now on this, the, the show that's kind of like dedicated, I think
to this attitude and I, it, and it's like there's a real importance that I think.
need to be reminded of.
And that's what, that's what the arts are for.
That's what these things that aren't part of your just everyday lived experience,
that, that running through the motions, that's, that is where the trap can lie.
Even for creative professionals like us, like, or for people that, like we,
we flex these muscles more than a lot of people, but it's like, yeah, I mean
it's such like a, a trope, but at the same time it's like, yeah, people get
in their car and they go commute to work and then like the next thing, you know,
like 15 years them by and they're just like, wait, what, what, what was I doing?
Right?
And that's where I think that those why the arts.
are so important.
Uh, and, and there are other ways to it, but I do feel like there are these
just different modalities or different, different ways jolting us out of our,
our normal routine that end up that kind of shift off of the normal walking
path and, and into a place or at least has us reevaluating or evaluating
like, wait, why am I on this path?
Am I, am I enjoying this, this journey?
Or, or does this just feel, I feel stuck or do I feel like, do
I feel okay or do I feel great?
kind of bringing this all back to like the people sort of like bathing in the, in
the guilt and bathing into despair and in the doom scrolling and all of that stuff.
You don't get that time back.
And as the, the, the days have turned into months have turned into years
and are now turning into decades.
The people waiting for permission to reclaim that joy and reclaim happiness.
It's like you, you lost it.
Like you l you allowed yourself to lose this point, since 2016, almost
a decade of your life to, uh, other people's shitty attitude and other
people's shitty ways of being.
And I, and I get it.
It's like, it's bad, it's wrong and whatever.
There's a lot of concerning things and that's, I think maybe something I'd love
to like pick at with you is just like, 'cause I've, I fall into this, this trap
a little bit, or not a trap, but like, something that I try to reconcile is
that this kind of positivity, optimism, hope, all of the good things that
we've been talking about Can't come across as, as, as like dismissive or
uncaring for the, the real hard things happening in the world, happening in
society, happening even in our own lives.
Right.
And it's like, I know that isn't true.
And, and I could feel it in my bones that it's not true that I care very
deeply about all of this stuff.
In fact, I, I feel that this is, as we've already kind of covered, it's like
this is an important way to fight that.
But like, I'm curious if you feel that at all, like where it's like this,
like you feel so juxtaposed against the negative that it, it almost feels like,
Jessica Hische: I, and I get what you mean.
I think what I would say to that is I think everybody has their fight to fight.
You know, like everybody has the cause that lights the fire within them.
You know, and whatever that is for each person is gonna be super different.
Like some people are kicked up about women's rights, some people are kicked
up about immigrant rights, some people are kicked up about Ukraine, some
people are kicked up about Palestine.
You know, like everybody's got their thing that has triggered
them, that has like lit the fire in them of like, this is my thing.
This will not stand.
I must be for this thing.
And I think it's just important to remember that each person has
the cause that they are the most excited to fight against, you know?
And so I think with like the positivity thing, the biggest
thing for me is focusing on local, immediate community stuff.
Because I think that.
My, my big thing right now is that like all of this work from
home post Covid stuff has like destroyed all local businesses.
You know, like it's just had such an immense impact of local communities,
of how people get together, of people's connectivity to each other and all that
I wanna do because I know I can have an immediate impact that not only makes other
people's life better, but it makes my life better and it makes my kids' life better
by just being way more engaged in my local community and trying to create initiatives
around getting the local community to like be more connected and involved.
And then what happens then from that is that like.
Local communities stand strong against larger communities,
against the largest communities.
So like that's why it can feel really good to be in California because
everybody in California just sort of agrees like, Hey, fuck all that.
Like we, if we have to, we'll just be an island unto ourselves.
And you just kind of have this understanding that we all are in this.
And that we are not gonna let that corrupt us or whatever.
And it has to do with the fact that this smaller community feels aligned against
this bigger or bad thing, you know?
And I think that's, so that's my, that's where I'm at.
But like everybody is really different.
You know, like if you have a family member that's been personally affected
by something, if you have been personally affected by something, you're gonna
have a really different approach to, like how to deal with all this.
And I think the, the thing that gets tricky is when people try to assign a
value scale to the things that people are upset about or are kicked up
about, or care about, you know, like by saying, oh, well you don't, you're
not putting all your effort into this other thing that is way more important.
Therefore, what you are doing doesn't have value.
And that's just not true.
You know, like you are gonna be the most effective when fighting
the fight that you care about.
And so, like, don't try to fight the fights that you don't all
the way care about right now.
You still care about them, but they're just not the top fight.
And so just, we only have so much time, and so you have to just pick
the fight that you're gonna win.
So pick the fight that you're ready to fight.
Brad: Yeah.
It's, it's, it's really well said.
And I think that that's a really important reminder for people because
I think that there is, there's, there's kind of a, a narrative out there.
There's the, you know, if, if you're not outraged by this, then
you're, you're part of the problem.
And like all of that stuff, like, that's a, a very, very
dangerous mentality and stuff.
And the fact of the matter is, is that.
There, there is only so much of you.
There's only so many hours in the day.
If you are committed yourself fully to, you know, uh, gun control or
women's rights, that means that you're not committing your full
self to preservation of coral reefs.
If you're preserving the coral reefs, that means that you're
not fighting gun control.
Like there, there is only so much of you, but like, because we are
just inundated, inundated and it's just so loud and so noisy.
And I think it's a lot of that sentiment is coming from a place
of, I feel this in my body.
I feel this in my soul.
know this to be important.
And that sentiment is a reflection of their, their reaction to it.
So it's, it's understandable, but it's not understandable to
expect other people to do it.
But it's like, so, so that I, I. My, my take on it is it's like everyone has to
do their own work, and that often involves taking a step away from the noise machine
in order to reconnect with, with their values and what their life experience
and what their skills and unique gifts and, and, passions and enthusiasms are.
And then.
will have a, a greater sense of clarity and purpose to be able to
sort of move the needle forward.
And the surprising and kind of cool thing is that there will be
byproducts of that that will end up rippling out into these other fields.
Like if it's all grounded in, in love, ultimately, these
things are interconnected.
These, all of these systems, all living things are interconnected.
And that, like, it really does require all of us moving and, and hitting things
from our respective angles to make a difference to, to, to, to show up.
Like if we all pick a lane, it means that the rest of the lane's
atrophy and, and bad things happen.
So it really does require this, this idea of, um, I was just talking to somebody
that the, the word, I don't even know if it's real, but istic is, is what
we're describing here, is this like.
Show up there, there is a pluralism to how we show up.
And we could all sort of express our virtues.
We could all build love, we could all build community, we
could all help in our own ways.
that like your way is going to be different than my way.
And that's okay.
So long as we're all, good things together.
Like that's, that's it.
And I think we could appreciate that.
Like we, we could learn to appreciate that.
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
I think one of the biggest things too is that, it's really
difficult to make big changes.
for one organization or one person to make really big changes.
'cause I was, I was having a conversation with someone about this, about like
initiatives on a city level or like, you know, stuff that's meant to like,
address like really systemic problems.
But the issue is, is that it takes a lot of people, a lot of time to come
up with a plan, and then they have to start rolling out the plan, and
they roll out the plan bit by bit.
But as they're rolling out the plan, there's other groups that are going,
this plan isn't happening fast enough.
We're gonna put together another new plan of how to address this system.
And then everyone goes, you're right.
That's not happening fast enough.
Because 5% of that first plan has only rolled out.
So then a new plan, plan goes into place that then starts from zero.
And what happens is when people do this, when people try to always
address it from the top down, they're putting forth these huge systemic
changes and only getting 10 to 15%.
Done.
And then all of a sudden everybody has a big rebellion
and says Not enough is happening.
So it never gets to a hundred percent.
Whereas if you just tackle small problems bit by bit and just work through
them, you can actually get stuff done.
And so like, I think that's another thing to remember is like that all this
stuff that we're talking about is just about like taking action now and setting
yourself up in a way to take action.
You know, like building up your personal reserves, getting yourself kicked up about
a thing, doing a thing that you can have immediate impact on, even if it's small.
And understand that many small things equals one big thing.
You know?
Because a lot of times when you try to do one big thing, It's really
difficult to roll out that whole thing because people always wanna
come up with the new big thing.
They wanna be in charge of the new big thing they want, you know, like
everybody's got different ideas of what the new big thing should be and
it's just really hard to do that.
And it just, you just see it over and over again where people have these
really grand plans and they never get a chance to actually actualize them
because be because everyone's impatient.
And by the time they start rolling it out, other people are like,
well, clearly this wasn't working.
We've gotta rethink it all.
Brad: yeah.
No, that, that's exactly it.
And I can't help but think like that our.
Media landscape contributes to that.
It's like, again, like the, the woes of the world are
showing up to our screens 24 7.
so we feel like we need to react and act, in equal measure, which is, oh yeah, we
gotta solve these big wicked problems and wouldn't, you know it, I feel guilty
and, uh, like I'm incapable of doing.
It's, it's because you are right, you are incapable
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: these, these big, wicked problems, right?
So it's like, it's like we, we, we have to like reframe our reactions
and our response to these like macro level things with, like how you're
saying it just like this, just these really like, kind of focused and,
and immediate and actionable things.
that is what any human single person can do, undo.
That's beautiful.
That's great.
We need more of it.
Jessica Hische: agreed.
Agreed.
Brad: how have you felt that your ambitions and priorities have changed?
We've already kind of like talked about it with like, like the kids and
stuff, but even just in, into this more like purposeful stuff, like there's
kind of like different seasons of our career and, and life and stuff.
Like how, how have you felt things shift for you and how
do you, like, feel about it?
Do you feel like a loss or do you feel, uh, like it's just inevitable
and you're rolling with it?
Jessica Hische: don't, I feel like I've been really able to recalibrate like every
few years based on what I want my life to be like and what my interests are.
So for me now, my big focus is sort of two.
It's really like the big focus now is.
How do I set myself up financially so that I can do more things that are more
fun, like both workwise and lifewise, you know, mostly workwise because a
lot of, you know, the higher paying projects are you working in a silo?
It's a, it's for like a big commercial thing or whatever.
And the more fun things are things that don't always pay the best, things that are
more like collaborations than they are, client projects or, volunteerism through
design and work and that kind of thing.
And I feel like I always want to do those things, but have a hard time balancing
it against needing to earn an income for my family and stuff like that.
So just really trying to figure out the way to make it so that I can do
more of those things in five years and I can make more of my life's
focus around that, you know, like.
That I, it's not just about like donating money to local organizations
and more just about like, what can I do to actually do things like, you know,
can I turn studio works into, uh, have a nonprofit where like I take my salary
and anything that goes beyond that goes into a nonprofit that goes towards local
arts organizations or towards, you know, grants or whatever, you know, like a
way to help sustain everybody else.
You know, I feel pretty strongly about like.
Local retail and things like that and how difficult it is.
It's like just almost impossible.
It would be amazing to just like be able to have some sort of program to
help people do small scale retail.
Be knowing that it's not really a big money maker, you know, that it's just
like a thing that you have to do, or like, if you wanna do it, it's not
meant to be like your next career 'cause it's really difficult to succeed at.
Um, but that, those things are really amazing for local culture
and also just for personal reasons.
And so, I don't know, just like try and I, I wanna figure out a way to
like take all the skills that I've learned and resources that I have
and help other people with them.
But I also know that I need the financial ability to do that.
And I don't wanna be reliant on other people.
You know, like I don't want it to be like setting up a thing where
there's donors and then board members and blah, blah, blah.
Because I like it just, I don't know, I just feel like people with lots
of money always screw things up.
So.
Brad: So it's true.
I lo I love what you're saying.
It's like, and this is a really interesting, we'll say theme that's,
that's emerging on, this is something that I spent a lot of time thinking
about as well, where it's like, you know, like money is a tool, right?
And what you're describing is like, money in this sense is a platform a way for
you to provide stability to your family.
And you wanna like.
like tick that box so that you could free up your, your mental, you know, spiritual
energy to, to do more worthwhile things.
It's, it's, it's money is a tool in that respect that can be
wielded to unlock many good things.
Jessica Hische: Absolutely.
Because I think too, like it just depends on how you're using it, you know?
Because like city, like if you think about how to effectively use money to do stuff.
Like there's certainly, like the city of Oakland, which is where my studio is, is
not a very well organized city in general.
I think I can say that without getting everybody upset.
And part of it is like they end up having to charge.
They have to charge, they, they charge a lot.
They have to charge a lot for things like permits to do things or whatever, to
like make up for the fact that they just like bleed money over all sorts of stuff.
So it's just like, there's certain organizations where like more money
does not equal more effectiveness.
And actually, like I.
Brad: Yes.
Jessica Hische: out how to like use money in a smart way is really
important and is really difficult to do.
And so I think like I wanna focus on things like that, whereas I feel like
there's like plenty, I mean, there's tons of organizations that you can
donate to and they use the money in excellent ways and it's very useful.
Um, and so I'm not knocking nonprofits and charities and stuff that already exist.
I'm just saying that like, if you're thinking about direct contributions to
people, there's probably some really smart ways to set that up where it actually
does have like a really big short-term impact on both them and the community.
You know, like one of the things that I was thinking about doing and this was
just, this is sort of a down the line pipe dream in, in terms of doing something
that's a more nonprofit thing, is setting up a fund that people can apply to to
host local events like community events.
So it's basically like you, you get a grant to do a community event, which then
unlocks the community in terms of their like presence with local retail and other
restaurants and all that kind of stuff.
So it's less about like giving money to a person to do a thing and
more about like, if you are doing a community related event, we will help
you file all your paperwork and we will give you money to like set to
do rentals and, and permits and like whatever, like that kind of thing.
Um, so it's like thinking about ways where the money goes towards
something that's very immediate and actionable and has ripple out impact
on the other local businesses and not just on that one person's business.
Brad: Right, right.
It's like, here's this thing that's like right now because it's just,
it's, it's harder than it needs to be or just like out of the budget
of, of like a normal community.
So it's just like, here's, here's just like this little push to just like
get the ball rolling on, on it, and then you end up with this beautiful
ripple effect of, of people kind of taking it and, and rolling with it.
That's great.
But, but I guess like, kind of like back to, let's say
like personal finances though.
So hard to grieve with all of that stuff, and that sounds great and I'm
looking forward to you making that.
But also like whe when it comes to like your like personal.
Financial situation and it's like, okay, you got a family and there's that, there's
that kind of like balancing act that tends to happen where it's like, okay, like
what's our obligation to provide stability for our own family versus like the, the
world at large and community at large.
And obviously like as your financial situation changes,
so does that balance Right?
But I like what you were saying earlier, 'cause it's, it's almost
like, it's not even about like the money, like where do I point my money?
You're, I think you're really describing like, where do I point my energy
and how could I free up my energy by way of just kind of like taking care
of my personal financial situation.
Getting that almost kind of out of the way so that you're free be able
to exercise your and point your energy to these really important.
Projects, right?
That, that maybe it's not that you can't trust other people with your money,
but it's like, no, you, you have ideas, you have gifts, you have skills that
Jessica Hische: Yeah.
Brad: to
Jessica Hische: Well I think you've been part of groups and organizations
and all kinds of things before where, you know that like the main thing is
just getting people to follow through.
You know, like everyone's got a lot of ideas and very few
people wanna follow through.
And part of it is because everybody is just too busy, you know?
Like they got too much shit going on.
And that's kind of what happens.
And so I think like.
While I have the energy to do stuff, you know, like I'm 40, I feel like I'm gonna
have a lot of energy until I'm like 55 or 60, and then I'm still gonna have energy,
but it's gonna start to taper, you know?
And I just feel like I've got these, like two decades of,
of proper go get 'em energy.
And then I, I just wanna do as much as I can during that time.
I wanna be the person who makes a suggestion, then actually tries to do it.
You know, not the person who just like talks about it and tries to get
someone else to do it that is not as invested as me or whatever, you know?
And that's, that's really what it is, is like, it's not, I'm saying
that I can do it better than someone, it's just like very few people have
the ability and that attitude and the tenacity to actually do stuff.
And I know that I'm one of those people, um, just because I love just hammering
away at a thing and, and making it happen.
It's like, it's really thrilling to me.
And so I wanted.
Make myself more.
I wanna be like, I want people to be able to use me in an effective way.
I wanna be, I wanna be a resource to people, you know, like if
they have a thing they wanna do, I'm like, how do we do it?
Let me help you do it.
And, but I do need to make sure that we're not like, freaking
out financially as a family.
Like, you know, 'cause I, you can't do that.
You can't like, give yourself to other people if you're not taking care of the
people that you're in a, in a house with.
And so that doesn't mean that I need to have like, crazy trust funds for the kids
or whatever, but it means that I should probably start their college funds.
Like, you know, one of them is 10 this year, so it's probably time
to start a college fund, you know?
Uh, and like, not that it has to be all the way saved or anything, but you know
that before I divert a lot of energy into another space, I probably have to
make sure that my kids aren't complaining about me in therapy, uh, in 10 years time.
Brad: But yeah, I, I think that that's, that's well said.
And I think that that really like hits at the, It's like, well-meaning altruistic.
It's kind of always feels weird to be seemingly selfish, but it's like after
it's all said and done, it's like you do need to take care of your family.
Like that is, that is the most important thing you could do.
And that's ultimately like a good thing for society writ large and for
your community that you are taking care of your family and your kids.
there's kind of like a reframing of like the selfishness, but Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Right.
It's like there's a difference between that level of kind of pragmatic, like,
I've got mouth to feed and kids to put through college and they have a trust fund
and we have a, a yacht and, and whatever,
Jessica Hische: exactly.
I think people have a hard time, parsing the difference between wanting to have
a decent retirement fund just in case, you know, like, I don't plan to retire.
I plan to work as long as I humanly can, 'cause my work is fun and enjoyable.
but who knows?
I mean, what if I like get physically disabled and I can't do that anymore?
Like, I have to, you have to like set yourself up.
Like, what if one of us ends up being a solo parent because something
tragic happens to the other person.
What if one of the kids has a problem?
Like, you just don't know.
I mean it, like all kinds of stuff can happen.
So there always has to be buffer, but there's a real difference between
like being practical and safe and planning for like potential hardship
that might happen or might not happen versus like hoarding like money and
sitting on top of a pile of emeralds.
Like it's a very different thing, you know, like at a certain point
everybody will be fine, like you can just start giving it away.
yeah, I mean, just getting to the point where everyone would be fine
if I got knocked out or if Russ got knocked out or if one of the kids
got knocked out or like whatever.
Just like getting it to the point where we'd survive as a family.
We wouldn't have to go bankrupt.
We'd be able to like take care of.
A big problem that happened and it wouldn't be an incredible hardship.
That's all that I want.
And then anything, once we have that, those assurances, anything
beyond that that doesn't need to get saved up, that's fine.
That can go towards cool, helpful things.
Brad: Uh, that's great.
I wanna touch on something and then, uh, looking at the
Jessica Hische: I.
Brad: we should probably wrap up soon, but I really like what you're describing.
you've done it a couple times, you've put yourself 10 years down
the road, 15 years down the road and, and also saying, yeah, I just wanna
work for as, as long as possible.
how do you think about that?
And also like how, in that same lens of like the longevity of your
and, and creative life, the breadth and depth of that creativity.
Like, like you've already turned over a lot of stones, uh, in the
creative realm, which is awesome.
Um, and I guess like how do you see that breadth and depth, like how have,
how have you, how do you describe that and how do you like, see that
changing in the, in the coming decades?
I.
Jessica Hische: Yeah, I think I, you know, I've been much more of
a designer and commercial artist.
I. Um, because for most of my life I have felt like I've needed permission to make
things, you know, like I need a brief, I need someone asking me to solve a problem.
Um, and that makes me excited and gives me permission to make stuff.
And so it's kind of a mix of that.
And then also coming up with my own things, which usually have to do with
me learning a little bit of a new skill and wanting a way to practically apply
that skill or trying to like work in a certain way or think a certain way.
And so it's like projects end up being the way that I'm like, oh, I
really like doing this one thing, so I'm gonna come up with a way that
I can do that thing for a while.
Um, and so that all is still gonna exist, but I think like I would, I
do want to be a person who can like, loosen up a little bit more in terms
of how I create and, you know, like.
Try new things and get a little sloppy and get a little bit more experimental
and maybe like exist in the world as a bit more of an artist and, and a bit
less as a commercial artist designer.
Um, I don't know when, and if that'll happen, if it'll ever happen, like
maybe things will just totally keep shifting and I'll just keep getting
more and more like problem solving and pragmatic and whatever, like, who knows?
But that's one path that it could go down.
I'm not sure.
I also would love to teach more 'cause I like, uh, being around
young people and, uh, that's fun.
Like, I, I love that and I haven't been able to do that because I
just have been too busy and haven't been able to pin down and whatever.
So I wanna, I would love to do that more as I get older,
and that would be really fun.
Um, also just like hoarding uh, maker equipment and doing a lot of stuff with
that and letting other people use all my maker equipment that's, that's big.
Like Russ wants like to get some sort of workshop space at some
point when he doesn't have to work in tech anymore so that we can just
like accrue a bunch of maker shit and just like let people use it.
Um, I don't know.
I feel like my, my thing for my whole career has just been about helping people.
both myself and other people, helping them get unstuck and getting them excited
to like, make stuff and not feel like it needs to be this whole intimidating thing.
And I feel like that's just gonna translate into different
things as I get older.
Like whether that's like I'm doing it through money ways, by setting up
like scholarships or like whatever, or whether I'm doing that through youth
programs or through arts programs or through like having a maker space that
people have access to or like whatever.
It's just about like, how do I break down the friction to make making stuff
for everyone and for myself, you know?
Like I think that's, that's kind of the biggest thing.
Um, so I think that's just gonna always be, that's just always
gonna be part of it, you know?
And it's just gonna have different forms, you know, it's just gonna
take different shapes as I get older.
Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like that's the, that's the winning formula that you've already
demonstrated in many realms and to just point that formula at, at different
things and open up doors for more people to make things that's beautiful.
Absolutely beautiful.
Jessica Hische: to to, to bring it back to the kid convo too.
I've been one of the things, and you can validate this 'cause it's a hundred
percent true, whereas like people are bored and exactly who they are, right.
You know, like they come into this world and they are fully formed people.
And so my big thing about parenting is the only thing that you can do
to impact your kids is to either add friction or remove friction on
the path of who they're becoming.
Right.
So as a parent, you are either throwing things in their path and preventing
them from taking that path, and they have to go around your obstacles to
get to where they're ultimately gonna be, or you're actively removing the
things that are in their path for them and helping them through that.
And I think that like having that approach to parenting and understanding that like
people are, whoever they're gonna be and everybody has different blocks, and the
whole thing is identifying those blocks and helping them move them outta the way.
You know, like whether I can physically move them out myself or
I can show them how to move it out and like that's the whole thing.
And so I think it's like, it's both like a parenting thing, but then also
just like a general creative life thing.
Is that like identifying the, that we're all on a different path and
everybody's got different blocks and that we can actually go and help remove
those blocks or teach people how to push their own blocks aside, you know?
Brad: Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I'm sure you get it all the time.
It's like, how do I do what you do?
And
Jessica Hische: Yeah,
Brad: younger people or people that look up to you and it's like, it's
like, how do it's exactly what you described with your, with your kids.
It's like have your own version of this.
It's not going to look.
Like me, you are not going to be me.
You're going to be you, and you have no choice to be you.
Jessica Hische: yeah,
Brad: Right.
So best get to it.
Right?
Jessica Hische: yeah.
That's why like the thing that's kind of funny is like the whole idea of
like a family business, you know, like.
If you think about passing down your family business to your kids, it's
like that's just assuming that they're built just like you, if they're
gonna have the same role as you.
Whereas like they, like the reason why family businesses don't always
last multiple generations is because you're basically having
your kids fall into a role that they're not necessarily built for.
But if the idea of the family business is, Hey, this is the thing I've
built, what role in it could you have?
You know, like what would get you excited that would make
you wanna participate in this?
That's a totally different thing.
You know, like it's not all about, you know, handing down the ownership.
It could just be about handing down part of it that they
get excited about, you know?
So I, I don't know.
I think it's.
It's just very interesting and it's fun to model.
Like a lot of the things, like, that's my favorite thing too,
is just like living my life.
How I hope that the kids live their life.
You know, if they see me working after hours and make a comment
about how I'm working a lot, I'm like, I'm only working right now
'cause I really love what I'm doing.
Like, you know, I'm just really excited about this thing, so I just can't stop
working on it 'cause I'm excited about it.
And so I'll just be like, I hope that you're excited about a thing to
the point where it's bedtime and you have a hard time going to bed because
you just wanna work on the thing.
You know, like, we'll see.
Brad: percent.
hundred percent.
And, and, and that, enthusiasm absolutely infectious, and your kids
will benefit from it in the same way that the rest of the community who
have, you know, who are familiar with you and your work and all that you do.
Are also impacted in a positive way by it.
Uh, it's like that, that, that outward facing, that broadcasting
of, of passion and enthusiasm is.
It's again, so, so important.
And that's why, again, kind of coming back to this idea of, it's like in this moment
in time, I feel like there's a, there's a constriction or, or there's a, there's
a, you, you can't, you can't do that.
You can't say that you can't, you can't, uh, share those, those eight positive
things in, in this moment in time.
It's like, no, it's actually imperative for you to, to do that because people need
to be reminded that these things exist.
That they can, that they have agency, that they have that same spirit inside of them,
even if it is dormant or even if it, if it's underutilized, you're helping give
them permission to exercise those muscles.
And, and that's, that's a really important gift.
I cannot believe that we made it this entire time without
digging into music in any real
Jessica Hische: yeah.
Brad: Uh, aside from just glancing on it, I would love to hear what music you
think more people should know about.
Jessica Hische: So it's a bit of a tricky one because I am the world's most
nostalgic person, and I just listen to the same shit over and over and over again.
there's a, there's one thing I feel like everyone should know about,
which is that you can search, Spotify for playlists based on BPM.
so that is a, a fun tool.
So I do sprinting at the gym, and so I'm always looking at the one 90 BPM lists and
finding music based on things that are one 90 BPM, which I find to be really helpful.
And then let me look into my, my recent liked songs.
Um, oh, I really liked the band Bronco, and they're young and touring.
They're very fun, big into them.
there's also a band named Fiddler, which is like a kind of drunk
teenage band, and I love them a lot.
Right now.
I can't play them in the car with my kids 'cause they curse too much.
But no, I just listen to the same tired music over and over again.
Brad: That's
Jessica Hische: So
Brad: That's not
Jessica Hische: I'm a creature of habit.
Brad: Well, I, I think we all are.
And there's, there's definitely back to those neural
Jessica Hische: I,
Brad: There's, there's a lot of science that backs that stuff up.
Why?
Why We kind of
Jessica Hische: yeah.
Brad: those, those rhythms.
But I, I would give yourself more credit based on our other conversations.
You, you, your finger on the pulse more than most, so.
All right, well, cool.
Um, any like, last things, uh, you wanna, you wanna plug where
could people find you and, uh,
Jessica Hische: Well, should definitely sign up at Studio
Works app for our new thing.
We're still pre-launch.
Um, and then the community, if you don't care about uh, invoicing software
and stuff is Studio works.community.
And then, um, I always have kids books to
Brad: anybody?
Jessica Hische: Oh yeah.
It's free to students and it's free to Studio Works members.
And so right now you can sign up for free for Studio Works and then get
a free, like in into the community.
But then once we actually release the invoicing software,
you'll be paying for invoicing software but have free community.
And then, um, I always have new or kids books to chill.
Ooh, I do have something.
Let me go off screen for a second.
Two things.
This book came out not that long ago, my first book of fancy letters.
My camera doesn't wanna focus on it, but there it is.
That one's a good one.
And then this is new.
I have an updated version of my IMP Progress book, which is now a thick boy
'cause I added almost 90 pages to it.
And so this is on pre-order right now and it, and it comes out in May.
So you should get this 'cause I'm proud of it.
And it turned out really good
Brad: Beautiful.
Beautiful.
Well, that's awesome.
Well, uh, we're gonna have to do this again sometime.
I thank you so much for, for coming on the show.
Uh, you're one of the, the first people that I'm talking
to, so really appreciate it.
And, uh, yeah, keep doing your thing, putting out the positive
vibes in the world and those kiddos.
Jessica Hische: all day our day.