Has lean really failed?
That question sparked one of the most listened-to conversations in the history of this podcast — my two-part series with Jim Womack in episodes 37 and 38.
When I sat down with John Shook — one of the most influential thought leaders and practitioners in the global lean and continuous improvement community — we explored a different angle.
John's perspective isn't a rebuttal. It's a reframe. A counterpoint to the question itself.
John asks: what problem are we really trying to solve?
His answer unfolds across three episodes — the first ever three-part series on Chain of Learning. And I think it will change how you think about your own impact as a change leader.
You’ll Learn:
- Why the question "how many lean enterprises have we created?" may be leading us in the wrong direction — and what we should ask instead
- The difference between "command and control" and what John calls "command and abandon" — and which one you're more likely doing
- Why the key question in problem-solving is not "is this accurate?" but "is this useful?"
- How to recognize your span of influence and build systems at the right level that help people think, learn, and take ownership
- Why purpose → work → capability is the right sequence — and why most leaders start in the wrong place
ABOUT MY GUEST:
John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network.
John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn, and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application.
IMPORTANT LINKS:
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:
03:00 Why John Shook believes we may be asking the wrong question about lean
05:25 Why change leadership always starts with changing yourself
06:40 The tension between influencing others and trying to control them
08:15 What a people-centered learning culture actually looks like in practice
09:05 Why John avoids lean jargon and starts with the problem instead
10:00 The Toyota question that shaped John’s thinking: “What problem are you trying to solve?”
11:15 Why learning only matters when it’s grounded in the work
12:30 Toyota’s “attitude toward learning” and why it changes everything
15:05 Why leaders must create the environment for learning and problem-solving
16:00 How organizations drift into “big company disease”
17:05 Why purpose → work → capability is the sequence most leaders miss
18:15 The risk of starting culture change with leadership behaviors alone
19:20 Why focusing on the work reveals what’s really blocking change
21:00 Why John sees more “command and abandon” than command and control
23:20 Focusing on your span of influence instead of waiting for senior leaders
27:15 How every person at work already has “problem consciousness”
29:00 The surprising truth about who is most frustrated in organizations
32:15 Building systems at your level that create ownership and capability
33:20 Why modeling the behavior matters more than pushing harder
36:15 Why sustainable change starts with how you show up each day
What is Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Transforming Culture, Developing People, and Getting Results?
Chain of Learning® is the leadership podcast for leaders and change practitioners who believe that people, not tools, are the foundation of lasting results.
If you're working to transform your organization's culture, develop leaders at every level, and build teams that are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems and innovate, this podcast is for you.
Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders break free from the Doer Trap™, where they do more and their people develop less, and build a vibrant culture where impact is exponential.
Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you:
- Develop leaders at scale, not just one at a time
- Build high-performing cultures of continuous learning, grounded in psychological safety, trust, and empowerment, that thrive and grow
- Lead culture transformation and change leadership with intention
- Strengthen coaching culture, problem-solving, and leadership development across your organization
- Move from managers who focus on outcomes to leaders who develop people, improve performance, and get results
Grounded in human-centered leadership and adult learning practices, and informed by principles of the Toyota Way, Lean thinking, and operational excellence, Chain of Learning features conversations with influential thinkers and leaders shaping the future of leadership at scale and organizational learning. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Rich Sheridan, Barry O'Reilly, Steve Spear, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp.
Subscribe and follow Chain of Learning® to deepen your impact. Share this podcast with your colleagues, fellow change leaders, and friends so we can strengthen our Chain of Learning together.
Podcast website: ChainOfLearning.com
Katie Anderson’s website: KBJAnderson.com
Connect with Katie: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson
Read Katie's Shingo Publication Award-winning book: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com
Download the KATALYST™ Change Leader Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/Katalyst