Yeah, how are you?
Yeah, so welcome to the Add IDEAS Podcast. I'm joined by a phenomenal leader who helps
other leaders communicate better.
Thabani Mtsi, how are you?
I'm good thanks.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.
I'm excited for this.
Yeah, so what introduced you to go more into communication and helping people communicate
to overcome their fears?
You know, there was a turning point in my communication journey when I transitioned from primary school
to high school.
So if you can imagine, primary school you're with people that you were with since young
age, you're highly socialized, you know them, you know who they are, you know their backgrounds,
you know where their houses are and we experimented a lot growing up with each other.
And so by the time I got to Grade 7 I was comfortable with the space that I was in.
So this was the primary that I was at in EMonti, East London called George
Randell Primary School.
So, you know, I spent the first seven years of my primary school there, grew up with the
people that I was in pre-school with as well.
So that was fine, right?
And when I got to high school, I went into an old boy's school, new environment, new
people, we had a bit grown up, there's a bit of maturing that's happening, there's, you
know, teenagers.
So there's that happening and where there was a sharp turning point that I realized and
I'll share why this was a sharp turning point.
There were some other points before but there was a sharp turning point where, so okay,
I'm at this all boy's school.
Then some of my friends that I was in primary school with go to co-ed schools and all
other schools.
And so a friend of mine then says, dude, there is this young lady that's asking about you.
I think she's interested, he sends me pictures and I'm like, oh my goodness, I've seen her
before because I'd seen her in my cousin's, you know, yearbook and I was like, yoh, who's
this?
And I had a bit of a conversation about it but I didn't follow up.
And so he tells me that, look, this person's interested in you.
And of course, I'm like, this is fate, this is her, this is the one.
And I say, ja, I said set something up, let's link up.
We link up over the weekend.
I'm dressed in my best clothes, I think I stole my dad's cologne.
But I'm ready for this.
She comes, I come, my friend introduces us and it's like, okay, you two, chat it
up, telling you.
And I remember it like it was yesterday.
I had absolutely nothing to say.
Froze.
Yeah.
Nothing came out.
And she was like, Haibo.
Ugrand?
And like, you know, I'm playing around, I'm thinking, you know, the weather, but like
I'm panicking, like legit, I've got nothing to say.
So she said, you know, maybe let's start walking, maybe you'll cool down, you know.
So we start walking and still nothing's happened.
I'm shaking, like I'm having like a proper, you know, episode of sorts.
So fast forward, you know, 40 minutes later, 20, it felt like 40, but it was probably 10.
My friend comes in and is like, oh, how are you two feeling?
And she says, yeah, this one is not talking.
He's boring me.
You know, like he's not.
So she wants to explain a different outcome than the reality.
Yeah.
Of course.
And she says, I'll never forget you.
She says, I was told, you are tall, dark and charismatic.
You are just dark.
Wow.
My heart.
So I think at that point, that was a sharp turning point that the way I responded to
it was how I respond to most things, get as many books as possible, ask as many questions,
try and upskill myself because there's obviously a gap in communication.
So that's when I started undergoing formal training, if you will, reading books, finding
out things, asking pointed questions that I wanted and attempt to try and get, you know,
competent at this thing.
And I call that the sharpest turn because I think I've always been introverted and I've
never been, you know, a conversationalist in any and every space.
I stick to myself.
I'm in the background.
I call myself a background panel guy and I'm not the loudest person in any room.
Right.
I'm not one of those center of attention commanding the whole room types of people.
So I've always been like that, but I've never had to face that before because I'll socialize
with the people I was in primary school up until the sharp turning point.
And the journey began and I've been obsessed with communication since that point.
I think like what other experiences that help you hold into a clinical profession to help
others overcome the fear?
And what opportunities do you see in that moment after that journey of that sharp turning
point that you realize, nah, this is my fine tune?
Sure.
So after that sharp turning point, you can imagine some of the content I was exposed
to, you know, and I took some rabbit holes along the way.
I know a lot of people will be familiar with some of the pickup artist's content that a
lot of young men of the time were consuming and trying to better themselves.
Right.
You know, I took that route and read a whole lot of books, how to influence, how to win
people and how to win friends and influence people, a whole bunch of books.
And so you can imagine that because I'm reading all of the stuff, my eyes are fine tuned to
see how people are interacting, the loudest people, how they're interacting, how they
are stepping into the room, what are they doing that I could adopt to become more, to
become less awkward, actually.
It's not more of anything.
Just become less awkward, become more comfortable in social situations.
And so to speak to opportunities, I then developed an eye to observe social situations,
people.
I also think it's part of nature.
You know, there's a nature, a nature part of it.
I also think I'm a natural and observing person.
I listen a lot.
I am always looking out to see, you know, what's happening here, what's happening there.
And I think part of it was informed by the number of backgrounds I grew up in, but I'll
touch on that a bit later.
But as I went through, I've gotten on like, I'm seeing these things, right?
I'm seeing that all so-and-so is commanding attention because of how they use their voice.
So-and-so is commanding attention because of how they use their body.
So-and-so is commanding attention because of how well they tell stories.
And so with that theoretical foundation and me consistent in trying these things out in
certain spaces, in new spaces, spaces that I felt somewhat okay, I'm here once.
I'm never probably going to be here again.
So it's time for me to try out these new tricks, see if they're working, if they do, I integrate
them into my life.
And then I started seeing, I'm noticing things that other people have not noticed.
And I'm asking questions that other people are maybe not comfortable asking or other
people are noticing, but they're not saying.
So like, if a situation is tense, I'm like, no, this is obvious.
So I've always been quick to say, no, this is tense.
Let's address it.
What's causing the tenseness there?
And then of course, the response that I got from people as a result of asking those questions,
conducting myself the way I conducted myself on the basis of that theoretical knowledge
and that experimentation, then showed me that people aren't as well versed on this topic
as I would have thought they are.
Because of course, when you're on the outside, you think that everyone else is fine, right?
Everyone else is laughing, everyone else is chilled, and you having an internal experience
think you're the only person that's awkward in that social environment, the only person
that's uncomfortable, the only person that's a bit weird when something happens and you're
like, I don't quite know what's just happened.
You think you're having a singular experience.
And when I started having conversations and asking those questions, I then realized that
no, I'm not going to do the same thing, Bandile is asking themselves the same questions.
There are a lot of people who are asking themselves the same questions.
And then I was like, okay, there might be an opportunity here.
And then I started sharing some of those things with some of the people I went to high school
with because, and I don't know if there's how factual this is, but there were a lot of
our school because we were in an old boys' school, speaking to women or girls was just
a tough hurdle in general.
And we'd often have conversations of, oh, how do you do this?
How do you do that?
And so I was then using both the book knowledge and what I was experimenting with, putting
in inputs.
And so I was like, no, man, people are asking these questions.
People want to know these things.
And so I started then playing around with not training or coaching people, but just contributing
my knowledge within the social realm.
And then move over to university, I'm somewhat comfortable in the skill, right?
So me being comfortable in the skill doesn't mean I'm comfortable in social situations.
I probably still have the level of discomfort, but now I know I've got the steel of communication
so I can communicate.
I can ask questions.
I can contribute to conversation.
I can be social, right?
Without feeling that sense of comfort.
And then when I got to university, I then thought I was drawn into leadership training
and facilitation and all of those things.
And there was a clear, clear gap there.
I had people who said, I don't want to run because I'm going to have to deliver a speech.
And I'm like, you're a phenomenal leader.
You're phenomenal.
You're thoughts are refined.
They nuanced.
You're smart.
You seem to have a good vision.
And this one presentation that's five minutes is going to stop you from stepping into a
leadership position.
And so I was like, there's a clear gap.
People are struggling to communicate.
And so it started off as me guiding some of those leaders and saying, okay, what are you
challenging?
What's the struggle here?
I want to do this.
Okay, let's go through it.
Let's practice it.
Let's run through it.
And then I ran across organizations like Toastmasters, came across organizations like the
Transformation Office within the university structure.
And I started experiencing a lot more of people who needed this guidance.
And I stepped in and positioned myself to serve.
So from those experiences, right?
You say you're connected with people who have the similar thought processes, social anxiety
or the fear of feeling uncomfortable because everyone is laughing.
You have to laugh.
So what are the top concepts in your experience that I comment on?
It's across different groups that you really tackle and say, okay, cool, there's a fear
of freezing for what to do to freeze them.
How do you overcome that as a first step?
Let me first paint the spectrum.
There is one-on-one talking, which is more conversational and all of that.
And then the more people you add, the format becomes different.
So let's say at this end of the spectrum there's one-on-one communication I'm talking to you
and having a conversation.
Then you scale that up, you add more people.
You maybe add a camera, you sort of widen the audience.
And then you move to, there's a group of us when a group conversation.
So everyone is contributing.
And then you move to, there's one of me and there's 50 of you, which is public speaking.
Or there's one of me and there's 12, or there's five of you, right?
Just a one-to-many type of model.
So challenges on one-on-one or in a group setting or in a one-to-many.
I think in different stages, I think as you say, like a best case, I know for myself,
as also as an introvert, I had to grow into being an uncomfortable talking.
Because sometimes you think to yourself, how can you be this whole of myself?
But what I realized is that people don't like reading.
We hear more, we learn from talking and engaging more in relationships.
So I think it's easier for us to converse, but as you say, as you add, for example, a
camera, the anxiety comes in.
You know, the thoughts that like, I wonder who's watching.
So what did you find are the common, I think as we transition to different states of communication?
Gotcha.
Yeah.
At the base level, at the base level, the research says at a primal level, whenever you're
standing in the midst of uncertainty, now let's track back to back when maybe you
were hunting for things.
You need to be acutely aware of your surroundings because that then contributes to what you're
going to catch and how safe you are.
So any level of uncertainty then should heighten your five flights or freeze or freak out.
It should heighten it.
So you're unsafe.
Now let's quickly fast forward and draw to a public speaking instance for instance.
You're standing in front of probably strangers, right?
Because no one has a problem in public speaking in front of their family because it's familiarity.
There's some sense of safety depending on the family dynamic, but very seldom people
are, or maybe rather paint that differently.
Seldom are people uncomfortable speaking in front of people they know and they're familiar
with and they're safe in their environment.
It's not public speaking.
Then you just talk into friends, whether they're sitting down, whether you're standing on a
podium, if it's them, then you feel somewhat safe.
When you change elements, you add a stranger.
It contributes to the fear.
When you add stakes there.
So let me highlight four causes for the fear of public speaking.
But I think these also apply to one or more conversations.
So the first one is the situation.
So where am I?
Am I talking about new content?
Am I speaking to a new audience?
How much is this setting?
How uncomfortable or how uncertain is this?
So new topics, new people, new ideas, new concepts are going to cause some sense of discomfort.
So that's the first one, situation.
The second one is skill, the level of skill and your perceived skill.
If you perceive yourself to be a competent communicator, you will do better than someone
who doesn't perceive themselves as a competent communicator.
So it's an internal story you tell yourself, especially around your ability to communicate
and the safety they're in.
Tell a different story when you're speaking to your family or your friends or a safe space
than when you're speaking to executives, for instance.
So there's a skill and then there are your thoughts in the moment.
What does this mean?
What are the stakes?
If I make a mistake here, what does that mean for me?
If I fumble this, what does that mean?
So there's skill, there's situation, there's skill, there's thoughts.
Situation, the situations of audience vary.
And so whether you're in a conversation one-on-one, depending on what the conversation is about,
I'm going to feel less nervous for a conversation that's not a conflict than I am going to feel
if it's a conflict.
If I'm coming here to confide in you about something, of course, I'm feeling some type
of way because the situation dictates that.
So the way I use my voice is not going to be the same.
I'm not going to come to you and say, well, depending on what type of person in my relationship
to conflict is, I'm going to use the voice that dictates what my relationship to conflict
is in the one-on-one conversation.
The same thing if you're on a stage and you think that you're being evaluated, the situation
changes versus when you think, ah, it's a bunch of people I know and I have to move.
So that's the situation.
Then your skill, which is what I specialize in, I think you can always ramp your skill
up.
And I always say that your competence as a speaker is no one's at zero.
No one's not competent at all.
You're on some spectrum of competence.
And what you can do is increase that slider.
And of course, nature and nurture, again, some people based on how their proclivities
or where they were raised, they'll change.
Some people are more extroverted, more open to experience and just more, more enthusiastic.
And so they'll have a bit of an advantage.
Some people are placed in situations where they had to speak a lot more than others,
which is speaking to the nurture part.
So in terms of that slider and the level of confidence, they would have been a lot further
than someone who didn't, who had a different background and has a different sort of makeup,
DNA makeup.
That's actually the fourth one.
Yes, it's physiology is the fourth one.
It's who are you inside, right?
Are you introvert, extrovert?
Are you open to experience?
By the way, I think introvert, extrovert has less of a relationship on your ability to
speak.
And I think your openness to experience has more of a relationship because your openness
to experience speaks to your comfort with uncertainty, your comfort with ambiguity.
So if you're comfortable being in ambiguous situations and uncertain situations, whether
you're introverted or extroverted, it just speaks to how you charge up for social situations.
Of course, an introvert, I'm also an introvert, by the way, if I'm not charged up and I show up
to speak to you, I'm going to be compromised earlier on.
Even if I charge up, then I should be equipped, but then my openness to experience and my comfort
with discomfort and ambiguity will actually dictate how well I treat a public speaker
situation.
So physiology, nature, nature, and then situation, right?
And then it's your thoughts and then it's your skill level.
Those are the four things that across the board, if you address them, you should at
least become a more effective communicator with skill being the biggest lever.
If you improve on your skill anyway, you can go anywhere, you can put me in any situation.
Yes, I can adjust my nurture and nature to some degree, but if you ramp the skill up,
then you're in much better standing.
So how do we get that skill muscle?
I think, for example, let's say you come from Washington now, you've just completed your
degree, you want to access the opportunity by just starting to sell yourself because you
never taught them how to communicate.
You've been taught about consuming knowledge, consuming so much information to build a basic
of skill of going into the labor market, right?
So how do we sell ourselves?
How do we communicate our skillset in that environment where you don't want to go and
pick between a million people in a whole?
Well first, you follow me.
I'm not kidding.
Yeah, follow me.
That's the first thing because I've got good tips.
And then secondly, more practically, I think there is one first understanding where you
are.
You know, I think as you share my sound, admitting that you've got an incompetence in being a
communicator is the first step.
If you don't admit it, then I'm fine.
I get nervous every now and then when I have to present, I'm fine, right?
And I've seen many people who are into that.
Many people will say, I'm fine.
I don't need any coaching, don't need any guidance.
And this is not even me selling services because this is when you're passionate about something
and infiltrates into your conversation.
So if I hear someone saying, ah, my boss, when I speak to them, I just can't tell them
that he knows.
Let's unpack that.
What's that about?
And then I see that there is actually a communication incompetence here.
But people are like, no, I don't have an incompetence.
I speak with you all the time.
Like, of course, you're safe.
You know, we know each other.
We're comfortable.
So first step is admitting that you've got an issue.
And then I'm going to break it down into the elements.
So admitting that you've got an issue.
And then before I go into the elements, highlight where is this issue the most prevalent.
Like where is it bothering you the most?
Is it at work?
Is it in your personal relationships?
Is it in family?
Is it with strangers?
Is it in?
And this is important because the approach differs, right?
And you'll find that there is a, you know, a very accurate mapping between where it happens
and the safety that you feel in that space.
And if it only happens at work and everywhere else you're comfortable, then you need to see
someone about that.
Yeah.
And you know, you have to see people who are professionals at addressing your relationship
to work and the health and how psychologically safe you feel in that environment.
And that really contributes a lot because a lot of getting competent at the skill is
making mistakes.
Trial and error.
Trying things out.
The more you try them out, the better you get.
But if you don't have an environment that's safe enough for you to try things out, then
you know, it's like a catch-22.
You want to improve, but you're not safe enough to have the runway to improve.
And so if the workplace, for instance, let's use that for an example, because I think that's
the most practical, you find that in the workplace you don't feel safe.
What are the pockets within there that are safe?
So now you're trying to find a place where you can practice.
Know yourself.
I have a problem.
This problem is the biggest pain point of this problem is at work.
I don't feel safe at work.
Whenever I feel safe at work, oh, and I'm going through my journey here as well.
When I talk to a sister in the kitchen, we laugh it up.
We really connect.
And I'm able to have a conversation with her.
I wish I could take that energy to the top complete, the boardroom, my meetings, my interviews,
when I negotiate for salary.
So I now have a point of reference within the workplace.
And I know how I show up when I'm talking to what's this turning for the sake of the
example.
I'm laughing out loud.
I'm jubilant.
I'm just sharp as my true self.
I use my body.
I use my voice.
I use my face.
But when I'm in a meeting, then, you know?
So I now at least have a reference point that I can map that to.
Then it's mapping out the steps of how can I transfer uThabani in the kitchen with uSis Thandi
to uThabani in the boardroom with uSis Thandeka.
Right?
And then there's a mapping that you can do.
I'll give a tool that you can use practically.
In public speaking, there is the tools that you're working with.
It's your voice.
It's your body.
And it is your eyes, eye contact, and ability to connect with people.
So it's those three tools that you're working with that are on your person.
Or at the very least, these are the things that people look at when they're listening
to how strong of a communicator you are, how compelling your message sounds.
You're working with those three.
So I'm asking myself practically, in the kitchen with uSis Thandi, how does my voice
sound?
Am I speaking with a low tone?
Am I excited?
Yeah.
How does my voice sound?
And I'm responding.
Let me not go too technical.
Just how does my voice sound?
And my voice, the body of it, you know?
Am I loud?
How does my laughter sound?
Am I loud?
And then in the boardroom.
Yeah.
Right?
So that's the first one.
Voice?
How can I match that voice?
When you ask yourself in the boardroom, what elements can you steal from your kitchen self
and bring to the boardroom?
Maybe I say, you know what?
I want to be a bit louder.
I think my volume is too low when I'm in the boardroom.
Or I want to increase my frequency of speaking.
So in a meeting, I speak twice.
But in a conversation with uSis Thandi, I'm speaking 70% of the time.
So in the boardroom, increase it to 30%.
In the following meeting to 40%.
In the following meeting to 50%.
So that's mapping your voice from the kitchen to the boardroom.
And then it is your body.
How does my body look?
How does my posture look?
When I'm in the kitchen, I'm throwing my hands around.
I'm hitting her on the bed top.
I'm relaxed.
Right?
But when I'm in the boardroom, I'm to myself.
I'm at my computer.
And typically, when we are safe and free and open, our body is open up naturally.
And when we are unsafe, we close up and you do yourself.
And of course, the safest position is the fetal position.
And you sort of sit there, in your head.
That's what you actually want to do.
You want to sit there and rock yourself.
And rock yourself to sleep when you're like, it's okay.
And self-soothe.
But when you're safe, you're open.
You sort of want to laugh out loud, you want to open up your body language.
Transfer some of that through.
How do I look like in the boardroom?
How does my posture look like?
And I'm not talking power poses here.
I mean, am I comfortable in my body when I'm inside that boardroom?
No.
What steps can I take to be more comfortable?
Okay.
I want to sit up.
Let's start there.
I want to use my hands a lot more.
Especially when a question is being asked instead of saying, I've got a question.
I want to pick my hand up.
It's a micro movement that moves you towards being more competent.
So that's you've moved the voice, you've moved a bit of the body.
Then it's eye contact.
Comfort levels increase eye contact.
The more comfortable I am with you, the more eye contact I'm able to make with you.
This can sometimes be tough because culturally, you're sometimes taught to don't look at elder's in the eyes
well as you do.
Which is fine.
I think it's fair, culturally appropriate and wanting to give reverence to that.
And I think it's fair to say that the mode of operation, at least in the workplace, is
different to the mode of operation in the cultural background.
You need to be able to be dynamic in that way.
So if your comfort levels are compromised when you look down in the boardroom, your
eyes are a bit more.
Maybe if you don't look at anyone, maybe just try and look at a few people every now and
again.
And how you can do this practically, stop by looking at people when they speak because
it's easier to look at someone in the eye when they're speaking versus when you're speaking.
So when they speak, just try and look them in the eye.
Then look, then so-and-so speak.
You look them in the eye, so-and-so speak.
You look them in the eye.
You're practicing, put by bit, put by bit.
I'll say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes.
And then over time, you then incorporate that when you're speaking, you look people in
the eye.
So you've transferred your voice.
You've transferred your body.
You've transferred your eye contact.
You do that long enough.
You are becoming a more effective communicator.
And you'll see in how people respond to you.
You'll see that when you contribute more in a meeting, and contributing more in a meeting
can even sound like hopping onto a meeting first online and saying, oh, hey, everyone.
Then people say, hey, how are you?
Good.
And just take the step and say, even if you're not leading the meeting, this is the powerful
line.
I see people haven't joined the meeting yet.
Let's wait a few minutes.
You've been invited to this meeting, but you can practically see that this meeting has
50 people that are supposed to join, and there are only three of you there.
Say that line.
Use that line.
And then every meeting, say it.
Practice it.
And what happens is then people start responding to your, you know, you say, yeah, let's just
wait a bit.
Yeah, people already do this.
Anyway, you know, so you then get into the conversation and you now know my conversational
game in a meeting is going up, right?
I'm able to use my voice to throw my voice into the space a lot more.
I'm more comfortable looking at people in the eye.
I'm more comfortable using my body.
And naturally you'll start coming into yourself more and more will start coming into yourself.
So I think as a start, people can use that as a starting point.
And to sustain that, we can chat about what some of the sustaining, the sustaining practices
are over time.
But as a start, as someone who says, I'm struggling to speak at work, those should put you in
good stead.
Try those consistently every day for three months and come back to me and tell me they
don't work.
Yeah.
So I think now you're touching on something that also gets confused a lot because I think
most of the time we can come such freeze moments.
I can't even think.
I need more confidence.
Do you feel like that is common?
Like people can't use confidence or communication or do the two go hand in hand?
Yeah, so and with every workshop, that's what people say.
I ask, I'll never, I've never been in a workshop where people don't say, I say, okay, I'm going
to train at public speak.
Not in expectations.
And they say, I want to be more confident.
And I say, I left my confidence shot back in the car.
Maybe, you know, so, but the myth there is I'm going to be confident or I communicate
because I'm confident.
It switched around.
I'm confident because I communicate.
And the bridge between those two is competence.
So you, you, you're not confident, at least for me, let me talk about myself.
I'm not confident in my ability to communicate because I'm a confident human being.
I'm confident in my ability to communicate because I'm a competent communicator.
I've trained how to use my voice.
I've trained how to use my body.
I've trained how to connect with people using eye contact.
I've, I've built that competence.
And as a result, you can put me in any situation.
I might not know the answer.
I might not know what we're talking about.
But I know I have the competence to say, sorry, I didn't hear the question.
Please ask the question again.
Or I'm not over in what the topic was speaking about.
Maybe provide more context.
Right.
And I think you are correct.
People do switch these around.
They think that confidence and the ability to communicate are the same thing, but confidence
is the result of being able to communicate, being competent at communicating.
So, and I often say, or I often ask the question, I want to, they say I want to be confident.
Make want to be confident in what?
They're like, oh, no, yeah, I'm like, as a person.
I meant the reality is, if you call me to do surgery, I'm not confident.
I'm like, no.
Yeah.
I'm like, no, I analyze businesses where you live.
I'm an engineer.
I don't, I don't slice people up.
So I'm not confident actually in performing surgery.
And there are a lot of other things that I'm not confident.
I'm not confident in my ability to dance.
I'm questioning that in my head because I'm not that confident that other people think
that my dance moves are wack.
But you know, I'm not confident in that.
But in my ability to communicate, I'm confident.
So ask yourself what you want to be confident in, and if you want to be a confident communicator,
build your competence.
And building your competence is brick by brick, element by element, voice, body, eye contact,
hand gestures, and your ability to listen.
That's you building the competence.
And then you'll find that when you've got that competence, there's no reason why you
wouldn't contribute in a meeting when there's something you're uncertain about.
You're like, no man, something, I miss something here.
I am able to unmute and say, no, sorry, sorry, let's track back.
I missed this, that, that.
Not because I'm confident in my technical capability.
I know that I'm competent and I've listened, I've comprehended, and there's a gap for
me.
And I'll be able to convey that gap effectively.
Not going to ramble, not going to ask something that hasn't been spoken about.
I'm going to communicate effectively that which I, the gap.
So it's competence.
Competence is the thing that people should go for, and confidence will come as a result.
And do you feel that when we ask for help, for example, in these situations that we find
ourselves in, how do we overcome the fear of shame in asking for help or asking a question
that the presenter has probably touched on by dressing, catching up to that concept?
Yeah, a lot of it is experimentation.
And I say that because I think we overstate how shameful asking questions are.
I think we overstate how a lot of people are like, I don't want to ask a question that
was going to be stupid, stupid question.
I think we overstate how people evaluate what stupid is.
And also, I must say this, I think we overstate how much people care.
You know, people don't care.
I promise you, and I've experimented and played around with this, I've deliberately
asked a stupid question.
Like not a stupid question, let me not call it stupid.
I've asked a question that if I was listening, I wouldn't have asked that question.
And then I try and gauge.
People are like, no, you asked the question.
I don't even know what question you asked.
So because we've got this gallery of people in our minds that are watching every single
thing we do with no pants argument, why would one need to say that?
We've got this gallery of people and then we overplay the stakes of us asking a question.
And this is not to say that every situation is laissez-faire, it's chill.
You can sort of shop or whatever.
It's not true.
It's important that you're able to give reverence to whatever situation there is.
So if you're in whatever forum that you're in, it's important that you listen.
It's important that you try and take notes and you play by what's been spoken about
and be able to know the gravitas of the situation that you're in.
And I think it's also important that you realize that people don't care.
People don't listen that attentively.
People listen to ideas more than they do to words.
If I were to ask you to play by the same as I just said, no one is ever able to play that
back because people don't listen to, oh, you said this and that and that and the thing
that I always point out, and I think I'm going to do this for the audience as well, I've
got a thick lisp, like a thick, but people aren't able to hear that until I tell them.
So if I was self-conscious about that, I think, oh, let me not speak because people are going
to be thinking about how sissy, sissy, sissy, you know?
But I'm like, also, they don't care to pay attention to that stuff.
So the micro detail that we think people are paying attention to is not there.
And so that chain that you might feel I'd challenge you to experiment with it.
Whenever you feel like you need to ask this question, it might be a stupid question.
And then query after you've asked it, how high were those stakes?
You know?
And again, cautioning here, for instance, in the world that I operate in, I'm in the
consulting world, I ask more questions than client meetings.
I ask more questions that are pointed at clarifying what they say, but less questions about my
work and my competence.
But if I'm in a meeting with fellow colleagues and someone says, yeah, the CRM is, I'm like,
what's a CRM?
You know?
I'm not going to ask that in client meetings because I know that I'm supposed to know what
a CRM is in a client meeting.
And because I know that if I throw that in as a question in a client meeting, then it's
going to be like, this guy doesn't know what a CRM is.
So it's looking at the situation and giving it the reverence that it deserves.
And then just asking the questions.
The safer the environment, the more questions you should ask.
And then be able to see how high are these stakes here?
How high are these stakes?
And stakes are not, and people make this mistake.
People think audience size is a stake.
It's not a stake.
Like the number of people in a room doesn't make that meeting high stakes or that situation
more high stakes.
Yes, it contributes to how nervous you feel.
It contributes to your level of anxiety because again, there's more ambiguity, right?
With two people, there's less ambiguity than a movie with 50 people.
And the room for judgment and all those other things.
And yeah, there's just more ambiguity.
But that doesn't mean the stakes are high.
It doesn't naturally mean the stakes are higher.
So before you ask the question, have real conversation with yourself.
You can even do this before a meeting or forum.
And I give actually this as a tool to some of my students.
I'll say write down five questions that you're going to ask in every meeting.
And like, ah, five is too much.
I'm like, then do three.
So before the meeting starts, you know that you've got a three question quota to put your
voice in there and also to see and recognize that the stakes typically aren't as high as
we think they are.
They really aren't in what I've seen.
So that chain is not the stakes on its high as you think they are.
And unfortunately, most of us realize this in our 80s.
Have you heard how disrespectful 80 year olds are?
Because they've got one of this thing, they're like, ah, I'm just going to go unhinged.
And so that not caring comes later on in life.
And sometimes it's misplaced and it's displaced because they can be very rude and toxic.
But the point is try out and test the waters.
They say, ooh, maybe that was a bit too much.
So this is the zone that I need to play here.
So in terms of relationships, right?
So how do we communicate better with our people that care for us?
And how do we ask help?
I mean, you find, for example, when you look at mental health statistics, most of the tragedies
that happen around mental health fall out is the lack of localizing help.
It's like being an aftermath of a lot of dangers that still plague our societies.
How do we communicate with loved ones that, hey, this is what I'm struggling with.
This is how I can connect better with my partner, for example.
Or this is how I can communicate my need in this relationship.
So I wanted to give that on some thought because I think the first layer, and I've noticed
in my life personally, where it's important that you know who's in your support system
first.
And I say this because if you're in my support system, one, I need for you to know that you
know that you're my person.
You can't be my person and you're just my person to me because when I tell you something
and you don't respond with the love, support, follow up that I need, it's going to decrease
the chances of me doing that again in the future.
And if I do that with 10 people and then I get the same response, then the belief that
forms in my mind is that when I speak to people, they don't respond.
But the truth is, those people don't know that you're their people.
Because I think your people will know.
So I think I want to put that out as a caveat before.
And then I'm going to move to the communication side of things.
In any communication experience or instance, there is the expression and the perception.
And I'm a big fan of over-communicating.
If we're in relationship, I come to you and I let you know, look, there's a bit of a,
I try as far as possible, especially with loved ones and those that are close to me.
I try as far as possible to be as outright and direct with what it is that I'm feeling
and possibly what support I might need.
And if I don't know what that support is, I can say, I don't know why I'm telling you
this, but I feel compelled to share that dot dot dot.
So as a go-to, so I start off by having that person know that you're my person and when
I'm in trouble, I'm expecting to show.
Are you consenting to that?
That's not commitment.
How far do I go?
And if they say, no, that's a lot of work.
And I've had some of those conversations.
Some people have said, you're a bit intense.
You know, like you're a bit intense.
I don't know if I can, I'm like, fair, at least it's clear.
So that having an honest conversation of knowing who's in your corner.
And then when you go to that corner, realizing that there's what you say and is what they
perceive, the expression and the perception and trying to have those be as close to each
other as possible and how you can get those as close to each other as possible by over
communicating and being as explicit as possible.
So this takes a leap.
And people don't start from the same points.
People, some grew up in families where shame wasn't a thing.
Some grew up in families where sharing your problems with other people wasn't a thing.
Which is why that first step is establishing a safe and secure support.
Someone called it a secure attachment, you know, and to attach and to latch onto another
human being is a massive responsibility.
One, when you consent to do that, you're in essence saying, it's not I'm giving
you my life, but I'm giving you a heavy influence in my decision-making.
And then setting those people up in concentration circles as well.
I don't know where I heard this recently, but knowing that when I'm having a self-doubt moment,
this is the person that I can go to.
And if I'm having a, I need to jump over this hurdle moment, this is the person I'm going
to.
And the importance of that is the way you place those people.
There are some people in my life who are just saying it like it is a type of people.
I'm not going to take anything less.
You're making excuses.
That's actually the person I'm thinking about.
That's their favorite phrase.
That's an excuse.
What's going on?
Yeah.
I'm not going to want to go to that person when I'm feeling tender.
If I'm feeling tender, then you tell me that.
I'm like, yeah.
And then they're like, yeah, no, you're making excuses.
That's not the council I need.
I'm going to need someone who's going to say, tell me more.
How did that make you feel?
Okay.
And then once I've contextualized all of that, I can then go to the making excuses person
I'm thinking about.
How do I confront this?
Then I say, I'm going to send them an email and then they'll say, no, you're making excuses.
You're being passive because of what they, so, you know, setting knowing those people
and your relationship with them, then of course knowing yourself and what you respond to when
I think setting those as primary foundations.
So again, to summarize, you have a consensual support system, the people know that they
are good people, you place them in accordance to what and how they can serve you and over
delivering on the communication when you speak to them and then just being aware of the relationship
that you have with them.
And that then should dictate the communication jobs.
And when I say that, there are some people for instance, that I can't swear in front
of, right?
My mom.
Yeah.
I'm not going to say, I have a...
You know, if she asked me how my day was, I'm not going to cuss.
I'm going to say it was a tough one.
You know, they should respond in a motherly way or whatever, whatever.
But with some people, I can easily say they'll call me and I'm like, I don't have time for
this now.
Leave me alone.
And they know that it's a call for help.
They know that I'm in trouble and then they know how to communicate.
They know, okay, he's just done this.
They may call you immediately or they may pop a message to say, look, I'm seeing you
in a state.
Didn't appreciate this.
You don't speak to me like that.
And I'm here if you want to chat.
So now they know, I know those people when they say that, I'm not going to be like,
what the hell?
You know, who the hell are you talking about?
Your feelings when I've got mine.
And so the terms of communication are dictated by the relationship that exists and how transparent
you are, how forthcoming you are, how honest you are, all of that then plays there.
So that's a long-winded answer to that question.
It's all about relationship and safety.
It's all about relationship and safety and the consensual terms of engagement.
Those are so important to have conversations like that.
How do you want to be spoken to?
For instance, I don't do well with, I need someone to say, okay, I hear what you're saying.
Here's a perspective.
I really like that, but depending on where I'm at, if I'm down, down, down, don't give
me perspectives.
Give me a hug and say it's okay.
You don't have to say I'm right.
Don't lie to me also.
Don't say, no, no, you're right.
They're wrong.
Let's move forward because I'm going to be on some no.
I know that I'm probably not right.
So I know how, and I've had those conversations with certain people that I appreciate your
input.
I think this is not sincere.
Like what are your thoughts?
And over time, you didn't see the people that are willing to delve into their thoughts.
And those are like, no.
And they'll use a high-pitched voice even.
No, you're fine.
Then I'm like, okay, maybe I should cut this relationship and start working, start serving
the both of us.
And they're a person not able to be honest with me.
But if you enjoy and appreciate and are served by that, then seek those people out and move
forward with them accordingly.
You elitized on like, you going back to like the boys school, as you mentioned earlier,
helping other men rethink their minds, they talk, change that denialism about how they
think about women specifically or other groups.
How do you feel that the state of mentality among men is towards giving the rising GBV,
giving so many almost anti-other human life narratives?
How should men approach that?
You are struggling with that mindset.
How do they approach a better state in that?
By healing first day, I think hurt people hurt people and unhealed wounds bleed on people.
Unfortunately, I've never come across someone in a healthy state that will be unkind, that
will be rude, belittling, that will be abusive.
I don't think I've come across someone who's in a healthy state and is comfortable with
who they are and knows where they trigger points.
I've never met someone who's aware and that's been rude and troublesome.
With that said, the healing is the first part and drilling into that healing journey.
The reality is we all have scars that are for a mess over time.
And you then become what you grew up seeing either consciously or subconsciously.
And you then react and act in the world.
You show up as that.
And if you're not aware and you don't know that those landmines, those triggers are there,
you then end up projecting and you hurt people.
So I think that the core of it is healing.
People need to heal.
I've also never heard of someone saying all of abuse just existing in isolation.
Someone saying, no, I just thought, let me just be rude.
I just thought, let me just out of the blue.
I was fine.
I was just sitting when they sat down and I thought, let me just eliminate.
It's always a reaction to something.
And there's a very twisted sick cycle around your oppression and transferring it.
There's a very sick cycle of when you've been.
And I think at the core of it is just the insecurity.
I don't feel safe.
I don't feel attacked in some other way, be it by your existence, by your confidence,
by something that you're imposing that's making you feel unsafe and insecure.
So I'm directly mapping that lack of safety to an insecurity because you're lacking security.
And we all experienced this.
I think unfortunately, men have gotten a, there's another cycle there in that it's almost
like you feel big feelings, but you never know where to take or how to address those
big feelings.
Give you a simple example.
And this happened to me personally over a longer period of time.
Like I no longer, and this is a miracle.
I think it's a big transformation.
I no longer react to taxi drivers on the road when they do these things.
And for me, it's miraculous because when they, I'm, I used to drive taxis.
So my driving skills have been, let's say painted by some of the practices that are
from there.
So when they do that, I sort of understand the mentality.
It's almost like, like, here's a situation that needs taken advantage of this person
is slow.
This person is not focused.
Like they just not on the clock.
I'm on the clock.
I'm busy working here.
I need to make my money.
And you're getting in the way of that.
So let me disrespect you or let me step over you.
Let me walk all over you.
It's bullying actually what they do.
It's actually bullying what they do and how they treat the rules of the road.
Let me bully you and let me get what I want to your detriment.
Now because I've been a taxi driver and I've unfortunately done that to other people, I
now know the mentality that or the approach that they use when they do that to people.
So when they did this to me, I was like, who the hell did you think I am?
And again, it's exactly that loop.
I realized that my intention of hurting is so that I can secure myself, put myself in
a better position.
When that's done to me, I know the intention behind it.
And so I personalized it.
I made it about myself and I'll always without fail.
When there was a taxi driver on the road, the antics outpour and it's not even rolling
the window down or shouting.
It's like, okay, no, no, no, it's fine.
I'll show you.
You come in front of me.
I'm going to spend the rest of this afternoon to ensure that you get to your destination
five minutes later.
I can be late, it's fine.
But you're not getting there because you've just done what you've done to me.
And through healing, I've realized that no, it's none of my business.
You know, they doing it.
Yes, it is an inconvenience to me.
Yes, it puts me at risk.
Yes it compromises my flow, right?
Because if someone quickly cuts into you, you know, and there's that quick burst of energy
that fight flight of freeze that comes in or freak out that comes in.
But when I quickly caught that, I'm like, no, I'm projecting because I feel disrespected.
I feel belittled.
More importantly, I feel unseen, unheard, unvalued.
Oh, what's that reminding me of?
All of those situations, especially for instance, social situations where I sort of have adopted
Yeah, like it's a, I'm in a social situation.
Everyone's having fun and I'm trying to get my voice in, but none seem to, or I step
in and feel like, anyway, you know, so in that microenvironment of the taxi, cutting
in front of me, all of those feelings are coming in.
And the narrative I'm telling myself is I'm not worth being seen.
I'm, yeah, I'm just not someone who's worth considering.
And this person is not considering me because the story is I'm not worth being seen.
And then I project.
But when I caught, I was like, ah, it's all my business.
Of course I get pissed off that I'm like me engaging in this thing with this person.
I'm not going to solve anything.
So I've got to make me feel like I'm enough.
It's not going to make me feel like I'm lovable.
It's not going to make me feel seen.
Maybe in the moment it's going to make me feel seen and heard.
And then I can be like, yeah, yeah, I shout at that thing.
It's not going to make me feel more valued.
How was your experience as a taxi driver?
It was interesting.
Hey, it was really interesting.
It was we used to do it over the holidays.
So I wasn't a full-time taxi driver.
It was like a side hustle that I did when it was school holidays.
And we used to drive longer distances from emalalini, which is the villages to town.
And they always used to be another.
We used to step in for our uncle who was the driver.
We'd sometimes be like, you want to learn up?
And of course, when you grow up, you're like, yeah, you want to drive?
Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then we'd hop onto those trips and he'd let us drive.
And then of course, we're growing up with very impressionable.
And we learned some of the practices that they have, you know, the shouting at the passengers,
the yelling on the road, the cutting lines, even some of the lines that we regurgitated.
Like, oh, this one is steeping.
You know, oh, yeah, here's the steepest in front of us.
It's just quickly, you know.
So yeah, that was my experience in driving taxis.
It isn't as elaborate as I would want it to be.
It was a very short lift over certain holidays, but I definitely adopted a lot of negative
traits in that time.
I also adopted quite positive traits.
I would even say more positive than negative.
But of course, it's those negative ones that have been not served in this time has gone.
You know, with the economy and its titters right now, you know, everyone is looking for
a recovery.
You find a lot of people still cannot afford if you look at the average basket of goods
receiving incomes that aren't enough for them to go to work.
You know, with the public transport system.
What would you say how the tax industry or government or the economy at all can work
together to communicate solutions in that situation?
Yeah, I, my master's research was about that.
Yeah.
But we're speaking about how the government and the minibus taxi industry could conspire
to make the user experience the most conducive.
And that's the question I still ask myself to this day.
I don't have the answer to it.
I think what I found was because I mapped out the relationships between so there's the
owner, the driver, and I'm looking at the people that are involved.
There's the owner, there's the driver, there's the commuter.
And then of course, there's the government and the support staff that are around the
taxi industry.
But the core ones are, or the core ones that showed, the strongest sort of ties and
relationships and dependencies is the owner, the driver and the commuter.
The owner requires a certain amount of money at the end of the day or the week, depending
on the agreement they have with the driver.
Maybe the drivers that drive don't own the vehicles.
And so they're both chasing target and trying to get their salary.
And of course, the commuters are what make the business run.
The customers are it.
If the commuters don't pay, there's no business.
There's no running money.
What makes the situation tough in South Africa is exactly what you're referring to that level
of dependency.
Everyone's financial situation doesn't allow them to have the optionality to use other
modes.
So in transport science, there's a called captive users.
They don't have the optionality to use either a bus, a Uber or they don't have either
horse.
They don't have extra luxuries anyway.
Yeah.
It's taxi, you're captive to the taxi industry.
You have to use it.
In Cape Town, unfortunately the train was the other alternative, but the trains have since
been compromised.
And so they left to the wilds of the industry, which is why when the taxi industry stops,
there's a flow of money from people.
Yeah, there's no food on the table.
Yeah.
So when you look at that relationship with that dependency, it then causes a power dynamic
of sorts.
All the way from the owner, the owner has a power dynamic they have with their driver,
because of course they pay their money.
Then the commuter, there's a power dynamic between them and the driver because they don't
have any other alternative.
There also is some power dynamic that advantages the commuter in that the drivers need the commuter.
But I think if we were to look at the percentages or even look at the contribution, people need
to get to work.
They don't have other alternatives.
They don't have personal vehicles.
They have to use the taxi and they time frames to it.
So it's not like you can sit at the rack and say, if you're not rude, they're not going
to hop into the taxi, but someone else is just going to step in and step into the taxi.
So I know it doesn't answer your question, but what I found with the research was that
they have longstanding power dynamics.
And then when it comes to the industry and the government, I no longer consider myself
as an expert in this because of course, there've been developments over the years.
There is, if we look at the industry, the industry has never been under the government.
The relationship between them has always been like this.
They've always been rebelling even how the industry was started.
Like a different state.
Yeah.
Back in the past days, the industry started by illegally transporting people from the
city centers to the township.
The regulations that are put, they were like, I think they were meant to only put four people
in, but then that wasn't going to be economically viable for them.
So they shut eight people in and that served the people that were on it because instead
of having a trip that's going to take four, it's going to take eight, which means more
people get to go to their place of work in the morning.
So if you look at that early dynamic between the industry and the government, there's never
been a, we're aligned.
We're on the same page.
It's always been, the government needs them to contribute to the economy.
So they have an upper hand and natural guard, but also they still wanted to maintain their
autonomy and their sense of self, I guess, sort of these mavericks of business.
And that still permeates the industry to this day.
I'm not as close to it now as I don't know what the most accurate stance is, but I sense
that there's still some reconciliation that needs to happen.
And alignment.
Yeah.
Those two have never been aligned.
And so long as those two are not aligned, the communities are going to suffer.
And I think this thing about suffering, we've also seen them, because it's been over also
into the Uber or the share riding platform that they've also emerged quite recently.
It's about quite a long time.
And we've seen in different parts of nature, it's taxi owners and taxi drivers just fighting
for their jobs.
Your job breaks my heart.
How do we challenge that?
Like, I think of the day as a citizen, or a user, a rider, or a passenger, you are
left helpless and powerless in a way, because you don't have the techniques, you don't have
a recourse to go about.
That really breaks my heart.
And again, it's back to insecurity.
As a taxi driver, it's feel insecure with Uber's coming in.
It's the subtraction of income.
100%.
It is a subtraction of income.
I don't know.
Is it just taxi?
I don't know if...
Because it's a different market.
I was about to say, I don't know if the person who contributes to an Uber is as much of a
contributor than you typical, and I'm sure they'll aggregate themselves.
I haven't done the research on this.
So I'm speaking under correction here.
But I wonder how much market share Uber really takes away from the taxis.
I genuinely wonder, especially given that you hear stories about them abusing Uber drivers
that are going to drop people off at the taxi rank.
If you don't know where that person comes from, don't know where that person is going.
They've been come to...
They're getting dropped off.
They're getting dropped off for you to gain business, but they still insist on abusing
them.
So I really wonder, and I'll be curious to hear what the results of that research would
be, what the actual market share that Uber's are taking away from taxes.
So speaking, now going back to communication, all the touch done, I think we've spoke about
coaching and the importance of going for professional services in a way like coaching, sponsorships,
finding a sponsor for example at work who can elevate you, build that competence that
you want to elevate next to.
How would you describe those as a quintessential toolkit?
How do we access these services?
What is the value in the room?
For example, going to a coach or going to a mentor or going to a sponsor to help me
with various needs.
So as a caveat, I think the power of coaching, training, mentorship, having a sponsor is
the whole idea of asking those who came before, it's almost like you can suppress the 15 years that someone
took to a master's skill in three months, in two weeks.
So that's the first gift.
And I always encourage people to, and I'll tell you why this is in a moment, I always
encourage people to do your own research, scour the internet and as a matter of fact,
everything that I talk about is on the internet.
I study communication, I don't come up with communication techniques.
Yes, I come up with techniques based on what I've seen, what I've heard, what I've experienced
and I'll package it in a way that's going to be digestible based on the queries that
I've seen it.
I've got the advantage of having a wide data set to know this is where people get
tripped up if they've got a bad start, they're going to struggle to continue.
So what tool can I add there to ensure that they overcome that hurdle of a bad start?
So my years of experience have given me that advantage, but I always encourage people to
scour the internet and find ways to proactively improve it themselves because by the time
they get to someone like me, I know they've put in the time.
I've unfortunately had people who have come to me because they've seen my services and
they're like, no, this is affordable and I've always wanted to acquire this skill.
And then we work and they just don't have the will.
I can give you the ability, I can give you the skills, I can equip you with the skills.
I can't give you the will.
Unfortunately, I can't, you know, and as encouraging as I can be and as enthusiastically as I
can speak, I can't sell you to you.
I just can't.
You need to buy into willing yourself to do the hours, to do the activities, to show up
every time and then get yourself over the line.
And I find people who have undergone, you know, they've read some books, they've looked at
some things, working with them, it's a lot easier than working with people that haven't
done that.
So I always encourage people to look on the internet and it's as simple as five tips on
how to become a public speaker.
You get thousands of hits.
Read up, read up, read up.
So it's reading, it's practicing, it's putting it in and then it's tweaking based on that
practice.
Then the loop continues.
So that's the first career that I want to put.
And then again, then back to the point and how important the coaching and the training
is and just to quickly distinguish between what coaching and training is.
So training is me to a group of people.
So I'm training a group of 15 chartered accountants or a group of 25 graduates.
And so of course, because of that format, it's going to be a lot of input and then we'll
slate time, we'll put time aside for them to practice and to run through.
It's not as tailored.
The coaching is more one-on-one.
You reach out, we look at your communication ability, your level of competence, we go into
detail to where the hurdles are, and then I also then go into the background.
What kind of family did you come from?
How was your voice growing up?
Or your firstborn or your last born?
How's the family dynamic?
What's your relationship to conflict?
What's your relationship?
So I didn't do a deep dive to understand the person that's you so that I know what some
of the hurdles are.
Because it's no use me equipping you with skills.
And then for instance, to go back to the earlier conversation I was speaking about, you're
like, I've got all the skills now to use at work, then you don't feel safe at work.
So in a one-on-one instance, I can then go through, okay, you don't feel safe at work,
let's look at psychological safety and let's work with that.
And then it becomes more life coaching adjacent, juxtaposed communication.
And of course, the core of it is to try and get you to a point where you're able to communicate
effectively, but it's in bed with other techniques and tools that I use.
Whereas with the training itself, it's purely communication.
Go from a time standpoint, because it's normally a limited period.
And then just for the volume of people that they have in the room, we don't have the luxury
of going in depth with every individual.
Although you gain the insight that's come from all the data that I've got and all the
people that I've encountered, they typically, you know, common threats, you know, why people
are scared of public speaking or even communicating one-on-one.
And so the power of coaching is that you get to gain the value that I've amassed since
I was, you know, a 13, 14-year-old.
And I've used those and I've weaved those now into products and packages that you can
then as a client gain from.
So looking forward now, like taking stock of today's conversation, what are you keeping
with you and what are your highlights that you're going to remember from this conversation?
From today, from today on overall?
Yeah, I think first, thank you.
Yeah, this was fun.
Thank you for having me on your platform.
And I think I also want to honor the fact that you've entrusted me, right?
You've got an audience that loves you.
And now you've brought me in and you've exposed me to your audience.
Thank you for entrusting me with that.
So I really am grateful.
I want to express my gratitude for that.
I'm appreciative of that fact.
And then secondly, I think speaking, you've made me see how, and again, I'm someone who
thinks about communication all the time.
And I often have conversations through the lens of communication and having this conversation
with you has shown me how widespread it could be.
You know, I mean, I'm thinking about the chat we're having about insecurity and how one's
ability to communicate can actually foreground that insecurity.
And how the lack of safety permeates out, actually, and how the core actual ability
to communicate is based on safety.
I mean, if I felt threatened by you, I probably wouldn't have had, you know, a conversation.
I wouldn't have been this comfortable.
We wouldn't have had the conversation that we had.
For instance, I'm a small as if he had a notebook saying a notebook would have been fine, actually.
If you had a scorecard, and you're like, before the interview, you're like, okay, I'm just
going to rate you while we talk to see how much of a 50-odd audience that would have
increased my threat.
Now I'm being vetted.
Now I'm being checked out and tested.
So you know, that would have contributed to my insecurity, would have lowered my level
of safety that I feel, and would have compromised the communication that would have had in the
exchange of having this conversation.
So I think I'm taking that away, the importance of safety and security in any communication
instance.
And again, you know, the importance then of using some of those levers to increase that
safety and communication.
Now that I step into the space knowing that I trust my level of skill, I now know whether
the cameras here, whether there aren't, whether there's a live audience here or not, I know
my skill, and I know that my skill has served me in various instances, and I think it's
going to serve me here.
So I've got the skill intact in the situation, and my physiology and my makeup is really going
to influence the rest of the conversation.
So yeah, those are some of my key takeaways from this.
But thank you for trusting me.
No, thank you, because you've hosted me quite a lot from this conversation.
I learned, I think, more than anything about the power of knowing yourself more, to be able
to speak better, you know, knowing what your limitations are, what remembering the encounters
that you've had with different friends to give you feedback of, okay, this is what triggers
me to be destructive in my communication, for example.
And I think that was quite a, and I open up, you know, like just giving room for different
possibilities to unravel.
I would say, accepting back and saying, why am I feeling insecure?
And you say, like, well, I'm hoping that taxi is the right way.
Drive us just, don't try to disrespect you almost.
Holding yourself back and actually resonating more with the impact that you want to create.
So thank you so much for just giving us 9 just so that we can use.
And everyone else, this was Thabani Mtsi.
And thank you so much, sir.
Thank you.
Right.
Bye.