WEBVTT 00:00:07.830 --> 00:00:10.440 Dave Hoekstra: welcome to working smarter, presented by Calabrio, where 00:00:10.440 --> 00:00:14.070 we discuss contact center, industry trends and best practices, as well 00:00:14.070 --> 00:00:17.130 as sharing success, stories and pain points for some of the most innovative 00:00:17.130 --> 00:00:18.510 professionals in the industry. 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:21.600 We're glad you are joining us to learn and grow together in order to 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.260 provide world-class customer service to each and every one of our clients. 00:00:25.740 --> 00:00:29.550 My name is Dave Hoekstra, product evangelists for Calabrio and my guests. 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:35.220 today are Craig's Zweber VP of cloud ops security and compliance for Calabrio and 00:00:35.340 --> 00:00:39.330 Tim Wittenberg, director of information, security and compliance for Calabrio. 00:00:39.540 --> 00:00:41.400 So we kind of have a couple of firsts. 00:00:41.470 --> 00:00:45.150 This is our first Calabrio employees part, and we've got 00:00:45.150 --> 00:00:46.470 multiple people on the podcast. 00:00:46.500 --> 00:00:47.370 Thanks for joining me today. 00:00:49.245 --> 00:00:49.455 Craig Zweber: Okay. 00:00:51.015 --> 00:00:51.435 Dave Hoekstra: All right. 00:00:51.435 --> 00:00:57.795 So one of the biggest things that we have seen out in the world, let's, 00:00:57.805 --> 00:01:02.115 I would say today, but it's been a, probably 20 year long or more problem 00:01:02.505 --> 00:01:05.085 is data security and compliance. 00:01:05.115 --> 00:01:09.345 And I know that at Calabrio we get asked to be responsible 00:01:09.345 --> 00:01:10.815 for a lot of this quite a bit. 00:01:11.085 --> 00:01:14.475 And so what I thought today would be a really good conversation with you guys 00:01:14.475 --> 00:01:16.425 to have is some of the things that. 00:01:17.035 --> 00:01:22.075 Not just an enterprise organization can do, but maybe individuals and personal 00:01:22.075 --> 00:01:25.969 people could go towards securing their own data and making sure that 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:29.659 a lot of the information out there, maybe we debunk a few myths today. 00:01:29.689 --> 00:01:32.179 Maybe we get some good information in the hands of people. 00:01:32.539 --> 00:01:35.446 And I think you know, we just want to have a good conversation about 00:01:35.926 --> 00:01:39.646 data security and what that means to not just Calabrio customers. 00:01:40.281 --> 00:01:42.531 And individuals that are out there in the day-to-day world. 00:01:43.011 --> 00:01:46.491 So the first thing I kind of want to ask you guys, and maybe is a good, this is 00:01:46.491 --> 00:01:51.051 good to start with you, Craig is, you know, you told me that there are lots 00:01:51.051 --> 00:01:54.771 of misconceptions about data security and I kind of want to start there. 00:01:54.771 --> 00:01:57.561 Let's, let's debunk some of the myths and some of the ideas that 00:01:57.561 --> 00:01:58.971 are out there about data security. 00:01:58.971 --> 00:02:01.791 So in your experience, what are some of those misconceptions that are out. 00:02:03.816 --> 00:02:07.650 Craig Zweber: Yeah, there's, there's a lot of different things, especially things 00:02:07.650 --> 00:02:11.610 that revolve around fear, uncertainty and doubt are a good, solid FUD factor 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.051 for those for that technical term. 00:02:14.112 --> 00:02:17.952 There's when you're connected to the internet and use internet services, 00:02:17.982 --> 00:02:19.782 there's no such thing as perfect, secure. 00:02:20.367 --> 00:02:24.867 The perfect security is simply not to plug into the internet at all, but then 00:02:24.867 --> 00:02:28.317 are all of our devices and services would be pretty worthless if we did that. 00:02:28.947 --> 00:02:35.997 So really good security is about good diligence and, and 00:02:35.997 --> 00:02:39.537 leveraging your partners and the software services that you use. 00:02:40.362 --> 00:02:45.548 And really take advantage of the security updates and fixes that they provide. 00:02:46.058 --> 00:02:51.338 Keeping your stuff up to date in new is what keeps us ahead of a lot of the 00:02:51.338 --> 00:02:53.978 security trends and tracking out there. 00:02:54.368 --> 00:02:55.838 There's a misconception out there that. 00:02:56.608 --> 00:03:01.678 If I have something old or something I don't necessarily fix or keep up to date 00:03:01.678 --> 00:03:05.278 that that might be some more secure when in fact those things are the things that 00:03:05.278 --> 00:03:08.068 can be taken advantage of along the way. 00:03:08.788 --> 00:03:11.111 There's also we get hit a lot with. 00:03:11.671 --> 00:03:16.861 Some of our vendor providers that unless we buy their security product or service, 00:03:17.401 --> 00:03:22.621 then we are somehow less secure because we don't have every particular bell and 00:03:22.621 --> 00:03:24.451 whistle available out there in the market. 00:03:25.051 --> 00:03:26.971 And that's simply not true. 00:03:27.061 --> 00:03:31.183 Some just fundamental good security practices that we follow here at clever. 00:03:32.103 --> 00:03:36.693 Are just as effective as buying 30 or 50 different products 00:03:36.693 --> 00:03:38.313 as other services out there. 00:03:38.763 --> 00:03:42.881 So that's something that even our customers, if they get bombarded all along 00:03:42.881 --> 00:03:46.751 the way, by all these people that say that they get the next best security thing, 00:03:47.531 --> 00:03:50.951 they actually don't, they're, they're marketing their wares, just like the 00:03:50.951 --> 00:03:54.431 rest of us market are awares that aren't necessarily directly security related. 00:03:55.151 --> 00:03:56.891 Dave Hoekstra: Well, I feel like, you know, your, your 00:03:56.891 --> 00:03:58.331 example of the, the older. 00:03:58.916 --> 00:04:01.526 The, the older piece of technology. 00:04:01.636 --> 00:04:04.346 It, I like it because it, it works. 00:04:04.496 --> 00:04:05.666 It's never failed me. 00:04:05.846 --> 00:04:06.236 Right. 00:04:06.446 --> 00:04:11.066 And it's funny because a lot of the old school thought process, I think it goes 00:04:11.066 --> 00:04:15.866 back to automobiles right back in the day when automobiles did not have any chips 00:04:15.866 --> 00:04:17.786 in them, there was no software in them. 00:04:17.786 --> 00:04:19.496 It was purely a mechanical thing. 00:04:19.976 --> 00:04:23.156 Those things were designed to last for years and years, 00:04:23.156 --> 00:04:24.686 and years and years, because. 00:04:25.371 --> 00:04:28.551 So the key in you turn the ignition, it was a purely mechanical process. 00:04:28.551 --> 00:04:32.222 As long as you kept the Mac ma the mechanics up to speed, everything. 00:04:32.592 --> 00:04:34.182 And a lot of people still believe that. 00:04:34.212 --> 00:04:34.482 Right? 00:04:34.482 --> 00:04:36.792 We're going to, we're going to talk a lot about my mother-in-law 00:04:36.822 --> 00:04:37.842 and father-in-law today. 00:04:37.842 --> 00:04:42.372 I think I have this feeling and the, the, the problem is that the 00:04:42.372 --> 00:04:45.192 old school automobile never had. 00:04:45.977 --> 00:04:47.327 Anything updated on it. 00:04:47.537 --> 00:04:50.627 It was always exactly what it was when it first started. 00:04:51.137 --> 00:04:56.508 The problem now with technology is that older pieces of technology or even newer 00:04:56.508 --> 00:04:59.718 pieces of technology that have been a little bit farther out from the update. 00:05:00.198 --> 00:05:03.048 Those are the ones that are most vulnerable, right? 00:05:03.048 --> 00:05:06.648 Because like you said, people aren't always creating new ways to exploit. 00:05:08.913 --> 00:05:10.293 Tim Wittenburg: One of the things that's happening. 00:05:10.293 --> 00:05:13.953 Of course, in the software industry, you mentioned a lot of this computer 00:05:13.953 --> 00:05:17.913 technology is different than an old car because it has a computer in it. 00:05:18.573 --> 00:05:18.843 All right. 00:05:18.843 --> 00:05:19.683 And there's software. 00:05:19.683 --> 00:05:24.273 And that software is constantly being examined for vulnerabilities 00:05:24.273 --> 00:05:29.313 by all kinds of hackers and people who would try to steal information. 00:05:29.853 --> 00:05:34.616 And so literally if if something goes out of date, like an 00:05:34.616 --> 00:05:36.266 operating system is basically. 00:05:37.001 --> 00:05:41.771 The turn to be obsolete, it's automatically put into the highest 00:05:41.801 --> 00:05:46.151 security risk because there's nobody patching it or nobody fixing it. 00:05:46.481 --> 00:05:50.411 And so if you are operating some of that software, you are at risk. 00:05:50.441 --> 00:05:53.741 So to your point, the older software is going to be the 00:05:53.741 --> 00:05:55.361 most vulnerable in general. 00:05:56.201 --> 00:06:00.141 Dave Hoekstra: So when you say at risk, Tim, what, what, what do you mean there? 00:06:00.141 --> 00:06:03.671 W like what's, what does risk mean in this context? 00:06:04.826 --> 00:06:08.366 Tim Wittenburg: In simple terms, that just means something that's high-risk 00:06:08.366 --> 00:06:10.526 is most likely to be exploitable. 00:06:11.366 --> 00:06:14.666 So just like all kinds of innovation is happening in software. 00:06:14.666 --> 00:06:19.886 In general, the tools that hacker U hackers use are also 00:06:20.336 --> 00:06:22.166 being automated and updated. 00:06:22.706 --> 00:06:28.106 So it used to be when a, a vulnerability or a weakness in software was discovered. 00:06:28.136 --> 00:06:28.826 It used to take. 00:06:29.621 --> 00:06:33.971 Months or years for an automated hack to become available. 00:06:34.211 --> 00:06:38.411 That is a script that can be used to exploit the vulnerability to steal your 00:06:38.411 --> 00:06:41.981 information if you happen to have the vulnerability, but now instead of a 00:06:41.981 --> 00:06:44.231 year or a month, it's literally hours. 00:06:44.501 --> 00:06:48.371 So when a vulnerability is discovered in a piece of software, you can 00:06:48.371 --> 00:06:52.211 literally have somebody attacking that vulnerability with an automated 00:06:52.211 --> 00:06:54.391 script in a matter of hours now. 00:06:55.211 --> 00:06:56.681 Happened in the last five years. 00:06:56.861 --> 00:07:00.044 Dave Hoekstra: So in that example, let's let's, let's use the world's 00:07:00.044 --> 00:07:02.139 most popular operating system. 00:07:02.169 --> 00:07:05.139 I'm not going to say what it is because we don't want to do that to 00:07:05.139 --> 00:07:07.989 them, but let's just say I have a lot of them on my house that I use 00:07:07.989 --> 00:07:09.919 to view my street during the day. 00:07:09.960 --> 00:07:14.400 The minute a new version comes out, it is automatically being 00:07:14.400 --> 00:07:16.020 attacked by automated scripts. 00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:17.700 Is that kinda what you're talking about? 00:07:17.940 --> 00:07:18.000 I 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:19.770 Tim Wittenburg: would say within hours. 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:19.860 Yeah. 00:07:20.685 --> 00:07:23.625 And the reason for that, or the tools have become automated. 00:07:24.105 --> 00:07:28.125 And the process for writing scripts has become more and more automated over time. 00:07:28.125 --> 00:07:33.645 So it's just, you know, the general watch word is like Craig said, if, 00:07:33.675 --> 00:07:35.385 you know, keep your software current. 00:07:35.385 --> 00:07:37.725 If a patch comes out, apply the patch. 00:07:37.725 --> 00:07:40.815 If you haven't, you know, on your phone, when a new version of the 00:07:40.815 --> 00:07:44.115 operating system becomes available, update it, apply the patch. 00:07:44.115 --> 00:07:45.585 Take the few minutes of time. 00:07:46.035 --> 00:07:49.185 People don't like to do those updates because it takes a few. 00:07:49.965 --> 00:07:53.715 It's well worth it because it is going to buy you more security. 00:07:54.255 --> 00:07:54.555 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah. 00:07:54.585 --> 00:07:57.735 And I think that's, I think that's a great point that you guys are kind of 00:07:57.735 --> 00:08:02.715 trying to make is that, you know, when my father-in-law looks at his phone and 00:08:02.715 --> 00:08:06.195 it says there's a new update, his fear is that something's going to get moved 00:08:06.195 --> 00:08:10.275 around his fears that a word's going to change, or he's not going to be able 00:08:10.275 --> 00:08:15.070 to find the same app that he used to have, but in reality, Isn't that kind 00:08:15.070 --> 00:08:18.820 of just the very tip of the iceberg that we see what's really happening 00:08:18.820 --> 00:08:22.030 in those updates are all of those vulnerabilities are being taken care of 00:08:22.030 --> 00:08:23.440 that are discovered in that timeframe. 00:08:24.310 --> 00:08:24.700 Tim Wittenburg: Exactly. 00:08:25.590 --> 00:08:25.950 Okay. 00:08:26.670 --> 00:08:29.580 Dave Hoekstra: I think that's a, that's a great point to make is that we all, 00:08:29.580 --> 00:08:34.800 we all tend to look at these updates as visual or UI based, but in reality, 00:08:34.800 --> 00:08:38.610 they're probably almost exclusively security based, so that should give 00:08:38.610 --> 00:08:40.470 people an idea of what we're facing here. 00:08:40.920 --> 00:08:46.489 So it's interesting that we we've kind of talked about this and you guys are trying 00:08:46.489 --> 00:08:48.199 to educate people, which is just great. 00:08:48.780 --> 00:08:52.907 But there are a lot of organizations out there that kind of live in live and die 00:08:52.907 --> 00:08:54.917 by these, these particular approaches. 00:08:54.917 --> 00:08:58.782 So these are something that I know we at Calabrio and you guys probably in 00:08:58.782 --> 00:09:01.542 particularly I have to deal with a lot during day to day, but there are a lot 00:09:01.542 --> 00:09:05.742 of different organizations out there that provide certifications of security. 00:09:05.772 --> 00:09:09.882 Now I know probably yours are a little more focused on the enterprise software 00:09:09.882 --> 00:09:13.182 side, which is great, but you know, we talk about some of the really big. 00:09:13.812 --> 00:09:17.742 Like GDPR and, or, or those types of things, but what are some of the 00:09:17.742 --> 00:09:20.862 certifications you have to deal with on a day-to-day basis and how do they 00:09:20.862 --> 00:09:23.262 help organizations secure their data? 00:09:24.012 --> 00:09:24.522 Tim Wittenburg: Sure. 00:09:25.152 --> 00:09:30.201 So we we have three main certifications that we obtain every year. 00:09:30.201 --> 00:09:32.554 The first thing I would just tell you though, is that. 00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:35.419 Actually operate a security program. 00:09:35.419 --> 00:09:38.779 That's based on something called the NIST cybersecurity framework. 00:09:39.529 --> 00:09:42.769 So Craig was mentioning some misconceptions about security. 00:09:42.769 --> 00:09:47.539 There are lots of those around if you want to dispel all of those 00:09:48.199 --> 00:09:51.589 misperceptions, go and read the NIST cybersecurity framework because. 00:09:52.389 --> 00:09:57.159 It will tell you exactly how to secure confidential information of any kind. 00:09:57.489 --> 00:10:00.909 So one of the great secrets is there is no secret, right? 00:10:00.959 --> 00:10:04.359 The way to protect information is well documented and well 00:10:04.359 --> 00:10:06.309 understood by security folks. 00:10:06.309 --> 00:10:09.069 So you can, anyone can go read that, but so 00:10:10.029 --> 00:10:12.279 Dave Hoekstra: like a good solid 15, 20 minute. 00:10:15.134 --> 00:10:16.574 Tim Wittenburg: I'm about 15 to 20 hours. 00:10:18.644 --> 00:10:21.914 So I don't want a kid, you, it there's, you know, there's a lot of, kind 00:10:21.914 --> 00:10:26.714 of jargon in that, but it does give you pretty much very straightforward 00:10:27.124 --> 00:10:29.144 instructions on how to protect that data. 00:10:29.564 --> 00:10:29.944 So we. 00:10:30.804 --> 00:10:33.894 We basically adopt have adopted that program. 00:10:34.554 --> 00:10:35.914 And that is it. 00:10:35.914 --> 00:10:39.834 It lays out a number of capabilities to protect information. 00:10:40.134 --> 00:10:43.044 And what we do is, are setting up the capabilities in our company. 00:10:43.044 --> 00:10:44.454 We've already established them. 00:10:44.814 --> 00:10:48.259 And what we're doing year over year is maintaining the maturity, 00:10:48.259 --> 00:10:51.889 measuring the maturity and improving the maturity of all those different 00:10:51.889 --> 00:10:53.749 capabilities to protect information. 00:10:54.229 --> 00:10:55.519 So we're the audits come in. 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:57.409 As we have three different ways of checking. 00:10:57.458 --> 00:11:02.933 Using outside parties, how effective those different protections are working. 00:11:03.623 --> 00:11:08.273 And so the first method we use is we have a SOC to something called a SOC two. 00:11:09.398 --> 00:11:12.788 And that goes and looks at all of our different infrastructure 00:11:12.788 --> 00:11:16.388 components, the servers and the databases and the different software. 00:11:16.718 --> 00:11:20.008 And it checks to see how well we're protecting that, that information, 00:11:20.028 --> 00:11:22.238 the software, the systems, the data. 00:11:22.808 --> 00:11:24.155 And so that's important. 00:11:24.155 --> 00:11:29.177 The other audit that we get is we get an ISO 27,001 audit. 00:11:29.687 --> 00:11:32.627 That one is more important from our international. 00:11:32.677 --> 00:11:37.631 Perspective and our customers out in the world because it's just widely known and, 00:11:37.631 --> 00:11:41.131 and more, I guess you'd say respected out there in the international markets. 00:11:41.461 --> 00:11:43.351 And then the third one we get is a PCI. 00:11:43.411 --> 00:11:47.251 So we are not a credit card processor under PCI. 00:11:47.251 --> 00:11:48.811 We are what's called a service proven. 00:11:49.576 --> 00:11:52.366 Because we provide a service to our customers who may or 00:11:52.366 --> 00:11:53.956 may not process credit cards. 00:11:54.166 --> 00:11:56.506 And so we get a third one called the attestation of 00:11:56.506 --> 00:11:58.456 compliance from the PCI world. 00:11:59.086 --> 00:12:01.570 And so all those audits basically. 00:12:02.935 --> 00:12:05.815 Essentially provide assurance to our customers that we're 00:12:05.815 --> 00:12:07.225 serious about security. 00:12:07.525 --> 00:12:10.645 And we have third parties come in and validate that our security is 00:12:10.645 --> 00:12:12.535 operating effectively each year. 00:12:13.075 --> 00:12:13.255 And 00:12:13.255 --> 00:12:15.625 Dave Hoekstra: Craig, what kind of work goes into secure? 00:12:15.655 --> 00:12:18.895 I mean, I don't even know what the right terminology is, passing those audits 00:12:18.986 --> 00:12:20.996 securing those security certifications. 00:12:20.996 --> 00:12:23.156 What kind of work goes into a, to those processes? 00:12:23.931 --> 00:12:28.035 Craig Zweber: Yeah, all those, as, as Tim mentioned with the with the security 00:12:28.035 --> 00:12:33.266 capabilities each capability is, is got a review process or procedure around that. 00:12:33.836 --> 00:12:37.406 So you can think of who has got administrative rights into a 00:12:37.406 --> 00:12:39.026 particular area of the application. 00:12:39.596 --> 00:12:43.046 We have to review that list of administrators on a periodic 00:12:43.046 --> 00:12:44.846 basis and prove to the auditors. 00:12:45.586 --> 00:12:49.156 That we actually have done that review and prove that we've 00:12:49.156 --> 00:12:50.926 taken any appropriate action. 00:12:51.286 --> 00:12:54.256 Should we find something misconfigured in that particular review? 00:12:54.736 --> 00:12:58.276 So every single one of those rules that are in the NIST cybersecurity framework 00:12:58.756 --> 00:13:03.556 has another process or rule around it that we have to show that we are actually 00:13:03.556 --> 00:13:05.476 following the security best practices. 00:13:06.046 --> 00:13:07.936 So we have a bunch of manual processes. 00:13:07.985 --> 00:13:11.377 I like to call them the army of people with clipboards, right. 00:13:11.917 --> 00:13:15.779 They go around and, and, you know, and they might manually go through 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:19.979 the checklist and ask us, Hey, did you perform your security audit this month? 00:13:19.979 --> 00:13:24.929 Or this week, or this quarter, we collect that data, other things, and we're working 00:13:25.007 --> 00:13:30.647 more so towards this is to have the computers, help us audit the computer. 00:13:31.462 --> 00:13:32.062 In the end. 00:13:32.632 --> 00:13:35.588 So it's a term that we've worked to coin. 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:38.429 Tim and I here called continuous assurance. 00:13:39.029 --> 00:13:43.671 It's more becoming more broadly accepted into industry where we 00:13:43.671 --> 00:13:47.181 don't necessarily come around and do audits on a periodic basis. 00:13:47.181 --> 00:13:52.881 We are working to actually program magically detect every single change and 00:13:52.881 --> 00:13:56.381 make sure that every single change that actually stays in compliance really. 00:13:57.676 --> 00:13:59.696 So that will save us a lot of time. 00:13:59.696 --> 00:14:04.026 We can start to reduce the size of that army of people with clipboards and go 00:14:04.026 --> 00:14:05.826 towards all automated processes around 00:14:05.826 --> 00:14:05.976 Dave Hoekstra: that. 00:14:06.426 --> 00:14:08.826 So it's a, it's a, it's a 24 7 thing. 00:14:08.826 --> 00:14:10.446 It's not a shoe we're done. 00:14:10.476 --> 00:14:10.806 Okay. 00:14:10.806 --> 00:14:14.076 Now I can stop for six months and stop thinking about this, right. 00:14:14.076 --> 00:14:16.116 It's kind of a continuous process. 00:14:16.146 --> 00:14:16.906 24 00:14:16.906 --> 00:14:18.426 Tim Wittenburg: 7 365. 00:14:18.496 --> 00:14:19.096 Yeah. 00:14:19.356 --> 00:14:19.536 Yeah. 00:14:19.656 --> 00:14:20.706 Craig Zweber: So holidays either. 00:14:23.111 --> 00:14:24.851 Dave Hoekstra: Well, that's, that's why you guys are so well 00:14:24.851 --> 00:14:26.501 paid and in good looking, right. 00:14:26.501 --> 00:14:31.121 It's it's the, the super glamorous life of information security 00:14:31.211 --> 00:14:31.571 Craig Zweber: out there. 00:14:32.231 --> 00:14:32.771 That's right 00:14:34.211 --> 00:14:37.512 Dave Hoekstra: now let's take let's take someone who might not know. 00:14:38.082 --> 00:14:39.372 Have the greatest understanding. 00:14:39.372 --> 00:14:42.222 I mean, we've thrown around some really good jargon today, right? 00:14:42.318 --> 00:14:44.118 ISO 27,001. 00:14:44.118 --> 00:14:49.248 And, you know, really kind of interesting, but if I were kinda starting from 00:14:49.278 --> 00:14:52.368 maybe not scratch, but I really, I mean, you know, from an enterprise 00:14:52.368 --> 00:14:56.687 standpoint where could I really go to start to understand what's going on? 00:14:56.757 --> 00:14:56.987 So. 00:14:57.467 --> 00:15:02.147 Tim, I think, you know, you gave me some pretty good ideas when we talked before 00:15:02.567 --> 00:15:06.287 about some really simple things to do, but, you know, maybe let's start what's 00:15:06.347 --> 00:15:09.197 what are some simple things that people can do to understand, and then maybe 00:15:09.197 --> 00:15:11.117 progress to a little bit more complex? 00:15:11.687 --> 00:15:12.167 Tim Wittenburg: Sure. 00:15:12.947 --> 00:15:17.699 So I think as we've stated here that, you know, good security, it really 00:15:17.699 --> 00:15:19.589 involves a lot of common sense. 00:15:20.099 --> 00:15:24.031 And so for example passwords, we've talked about. 00:15:24.896 --> 00:15:26.816 Using passwords that are too simple. 00:15:27.506 --> 00:15:30.698 So you know, people, there's a kind of a joke about you know, 00:15:30.698 --> 00:15:32.318 somebody hacked my password. 00:15:32.318 --> 00:15:36.248 Now I have to change the name of my dog because my password was my dog's name. 00:15:36.608 --> 00:15:36.808 Right. 00:15:36.808 --> 00:15:37.718 Those sorts of things. 00:15:37.748 --> 00:15:40.238 And so use a longer password. 00:15:40.238 --> 00:15:42.638 Those are generally more secure mix it up. 00:15:42.698 --> 00:15:47.378 So don't, don't use a dictionary words because the common methods. 00:15:48.113 --> 00:15:52.523 Hacking passwords is to have a huge list of commonly used words and phrases. 00:15:53.033 --> 00:15:55.721 And if a hacker gets a hold of your account and they're going 00:15:55.721 --> 00:16:00.551 to try it up, you know, try all sorts of known phrases and words. 00:16:00.551 --> 00:16:04.031 So mix it up, add some letters and numbers, make a long password. 00:16:04.361 --> 00:16:08.261 Probably one of the biggest things is don't reuse passwords 00:16:08.651 --> 00:16:09.761 from your personal account. 00:16:10.571 --> 00:16:14.861 Don't reuse those passwords for your Calabrio accounts or accounts 00:16:14.861 --> 00:16:16.181 that you use for business. 00:16:16.721 --> 00:16:20.161 And one of the reasons for that is there's a website called have I 00:16:20.161 --> 00:16:24.961 been poned.com and we can talk about how that's spelled, but they keep 00:16:24.961 --> 00:16:26.731 track of all the hacked passwords. 00:16:26.731 --> 00:16:30.181 And there are billions, literally billions of hack passwords. 00:16:30.601 --> 00:16:33.481 So if you reuse one of those four, you're one of those. 00:16:34.666 --> 00:16:38.056 You used that for Calabrio account, then you're vulnerable because a hacker 00:16:38.056 --> 00:16:40.006 can basically pull up that huge list. 00:16:40.516 --> 00:16:44.386 Try try, you know, if they guess, and that's your collaborative 00:16:44.386 --> 00:16:45.586 account they're they're in. 00:16:45.586 --> 00:16:46.859 So simple thing. 00:16:46.949 --> 00:16:48.119 Don't reuse passwords. 00:16:48.210 --> 00:16:48.900 Personally, I 00:16:48.900 --> 00:16:52.980 Dave Hoekstra: cannot believe that the word poned is a word that's something 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:58.200 that kind of originated from online gaming and it was just absolutely 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.510 the most slang of slang words. 00:17:00.510 --> 00:17:04.140 And now I'm listening to two informational security 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:06.210 professionals using the word poned. 00:17:06.360 --> 00:17:06.840 I love it. 00:17:07.620 --> 00:17:08.250 That's great. 00:17:08.310 --> 00:17:08.640 Okay. 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:09.360 So sorry. 00:17:09.390 --> 00:17:09.990 Continue. 00:17:10.087 --> 00:17:11.579 Passwords is an important part. 00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:14.801 What are some of the other maybe areas that we could. 00:17:15.726 --> 00:17:16.146 Tim Wittenburg: Sure. 00:17:16.146 --> 00:17:18.546 So let me keep going on that point. 00:17:18.546 --> 00:17:21.576 So I haven't, I've had an email account at Comcast. 00:17:22.346 --> 00:17:23.636 Something like 15 years. 00:17:23.666 --> 00:17:26.756 And so I went to that site, checked it out, turns out 00:17:26.756 --> 00:17:28.556 the password has been stolen. 00:17:28.756 --> 00:17:30.806 It was something like 13 or 14 times. 00:17:31.136 --> 00:17:35.336 So instead of me panicking, I went and changed my password again. 00:17:35.846 --> 00:17:39.446 But then I also turned on this thing called two-step authentication. 00:17:39.446 --> 00:17:44.216 So general point, if your S your service, if it's Facebook or, you 00:17:44.216 --> 00:17:47.666 know, some Calabrio service that's been being used in the company. 00:17:48.301 --> 00:17:50.221 Turn on the two step authentication. 00:17:50.491 --> 00:17:54.961 So what that basically is, is instead of you sort of just authenticating with 00:17:54.961 --> 00:17:59.581 a password that you may also get a text message that gives you a little code 00:17:59.581 --> 00:18:03.151 and it shows up on your phone, and then you put that into your account and then 00:18:03.151 --> 00:18:05.371 you have to log in with both a password. 00:18:05.371 --> 00:18:05.671 And this. 00:18:05.749 --> 00:18:07.459 Extra number, extra pin code. 00:18:07.879 --> 00:18:12.439 So things like that are very effective at keeping this a, this 00:18:12.529 --> 00:18:14.779 hack attempt method from working. 00:18:14.779 --> 00:18:18.829 So somebody finds a stolen password from one of your old accounts and you 00:18:18.829 --> 00:18:21.079 have reused it on our customer account. 00:18:21.289 --> 00:18:21.709 If you've got. 00:18:22.774 --> 00:18:27.064 You know, this two factor or two step authentication activated that will stop. 00:18:27.304 --> 00:18:31.684 So I keep using my email address, the same account that I've had for years and years. 00:18:31.984 --> 00:18:35.314 Cause I've turned on the two step authentication and people should be doing 00:18:35.314 --> 00:18:37.234 that in general, everywhere they can. 00:18:37.894 --> 00:18:38.614 And yes it does. 00:18:38.674 --> 00:18:39.184 It does. 00:18:39.334 --> 00:18:42.644 It is more time consuming, but believe me, the peace of mind that. 00:18:42.648 --> 00:18:43.278 As well worth 00:18:43.278 --> 00:18:43.488 Dave Hoekstra: it. 00:18:44.388 --> 00:18:44.778 Okay. 00:18:44.778 --> 00:18:47.718 So those are great from a personal level, right. 00:18:47.718 --> 00:18:48.708 And enterprise level. 00:18:48.708 --> 00:18:51.948 I mean, obviously my, my password to log into my email and things like 00:18:51.948 --> 00:18:56.568 that, rather I'm doing personal or my work email is important, but what 00:18:56.568 --> 00:18:58.038 about more on the enterprise level? 00:18:58.038 --> 00:19:00.588 What are some of the, some of the places that someone could 00:19:00.588 --> 00:19:02.538 start with a good strategy? 00:19:04.443 --> 00:19:04.893 Tim Wittenburg: Okay. 00:19:05.163 --> 00:19:09.203 So there's, there's that the password management thing is, is pretty good. 00:19:09.383 --> 00:19:12.473 And then the other thing is just to think about phishing emails. 00:19:12.893 --> 00:19:17.483 So I'll just, I think we've all talked about phishing emails and from a corporate 00:19:17.483 --> 00:19:22.073 perspective, those are very deadly because if you get an email on your corporate 00:19:22.073 --> 00:19:28.283 inbox and it is a phishing email and you click on the link, what happens is that 00:19:28.313 --> 00:19:32.093 email will generally, if you click on a link or an attachment, it'll download. 00:19:32.813 --> 00:19:35.033 Malware right onto your workstation. 00:19:35.363 --> 00:19:38.873 And that bypasses all of the other protections that we put in place like 00:19:38.873 --> 00:19:43.793 firewalls and, you know, all of these various layers of intrusion detection 00:19:43.793 --> 00:19:48.503 and so forth don't work because you've clicked on an email and it put, you 00:19:48.503 --> 00:19:50.483 know, malware right onto your laptop. 00:19:50.513 --> 00:19:52.583 And there was nothing we could do to stop that. 00:19:52.583 --> 00:19:57.533 So, so being careful about, you know, recognizing phishing emails we 00:19:57.533 --> 00:20:02.573 train out at every year, you know, Tend to create a sense of urgency. 00:20:02.573 --> 00:20:04.763 Hey, you're, you know, this is chase bank. 00:20:05.153 --> 00:20:08.003 You've got something wrong with your account click on this link 00:20:08.003 --> 00:20:12.023 right away, where you can get those in your corporate inbox, just like 00:20:12.023 --> 00:20:13.493 you can in your personal inbox. 00:20:13.493 --> 00:20:15.113 So it's especially important. 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:17.443 To be aware of those things in a corporate environment. 00:20:17.863 --> 00:20:18.943 I think I'll just stop there. 00:20:19.018 --> 00:20:21.408 You know, I'm sure Greg's got some comments on that too. 00:20:21.408 --> 00:20:21.738 Maybe. 00:20:22.038 --> 00:20:22.638 Well, and Craig 00:20:22.708 --> 00:20:24.978 Dave Hoekstra: that's, what I was going to ask is, is kind of just going 00:20:24.978 --> 00:20:30.288 along that exact, so passwords and fishing are those, the two biggest 00:20:30.288 --> 00:20:31.848 vulnerabilities that are out there. 00:20:31.848 --> 00:20:35.674 And if there's one bigger, we'd like to know, but otherwise what are some other 00:20:35.674 --> 00:20:37.010 things that maybe they have to be careful. 00:20:37.034 --> 00:20:39.704 Craig Zweber: Those, those two things are definitely big on the 00:20:39.704 --> 00:20:42.254 social engineering side of things. 00:20:42.254 --> 00:20:46.124 Y'all taking advantage of what people know or, or taking advantage 00:20:46.124 --> 00:20:48.433 of behaviors to, to gain a leg up. 00:20:48.433 --> 00:20:50.803 That's, that's definitely a ways to protect yourself over there. 00:20:51.223 --> 00:20:55.513 Be aware of those passwords and fishing on, on the, on the corporate side. 00:20:55.543 --> 00:20:58.993 And we, we touched on it, keeping things up to date is critical, right. 00:20:59.863 --> 00:21:02.546 And and leveraging those re reputable services out. 00:21:03.486 --> 00:21:09.606 Folks like Microsoft and AWS, they spend billions of dollars on 00:21:09.606 --> 00:21:12.666 information security to provide secure services out there. 00:21:12.666 --> 00:21:17.256 So leveraging those services, trusting those services and accepting 00:21:17.256 --> 00:21:19.026 those updates from those people. 00:21:19.026 --> 00:21:23.826 They, they know best in us as individuals and only the largest of the largest. 00:21:23.832 --> 00:21:26.883 Enterprises can spend that much money on security every year. 00:21:27.363 --> 00:21:30.903 So leverage what they have to offer, leverage what they, what they preach 00:21:31.263 --> 00:21:32.823 and definitely take those updates. 00:21:33.033 --> 00:21:33.963 Keep things up to date. 00:21:34.863 --> 00:21:37.953 Dave Hoekstra: I keep hearing a phrase that pops up, not necessarily on this 00:21:37.953 --> 00:21:39.813 discussion, but many other times. 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:44.860 What, what a pen test can you, what, what is a pen test and what do those do for us? 00:21:46.360 --> 00:21:52.060 Tim Wittenburg: So a pen test is where we literally hire third-party hackers 00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:54.940 to come in and try to hack our software. 00:21:54.940 --> 00:22:00.670 So in our case, we run a pen test every year of, of our Calabrio one software. 00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:06.506 And we hire third party hackers each year to come in and it's 00:22:06.506 --> 00:22:07.726 kind of an open door test. 00:22:07.746 --> 00:22:08.906 We give them an account. 00:22:09.386 --> 00:22:10.286 We give them a password. 00:22:10.876 --> 00:22:14.716 We say, here you go see what you can do, try to find 00:22:14.716 --> 00:22:17.626 vulnerabilities in our software. 00:22:18.076 --> 00:22:20.926 And so it's, it's actually, I mean, we, and we take the 00:22:20.926 --> 00:22:22.336 results extremely seriously. 00:22:22.336 --> 00:22:27.509 So if we find anything at all, we quickly go fix those things so that you 00:22:27.509 --> 00:22:31.799 know, it's not the true hostile hackers that are finding these things for us. 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.489 We are obviously on a hunt for those to find them and fix them for. 00:22:37.344 --> 00:22:41.604 Dave Hoekstra: So, which is a bigger danger to an organization, social 00:22:41.604 --> 00:22:43.824 engineering, hacking, or phishing. 00:22:44.364 --> 00:22:46.854 If you, if you had to pick the worst one, which one is the 00:22:46.854 --> 00:22:49.254 what's, one's the one that makes you lose the most sleep at night? 00:22:49.914 --> 00:22:51.354 Craig, what, what would you say? 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:52.060 Craig Zweber: Fishing? 00:22:52.120 --> 00:22:52.810 Definitely. 00:22:53.500 --> 00:22:55.510 Just because it creates that sense of urgency. 00:22:55.597 --> 00:22:59.227 After that would be social engineering, Cushing is a type of social 00:22:59.227 --> 00:23:04.761 engineering but Social engineering, those who are kind of vulnerable 00:23:04.761 --> 00:23:07.311 to, to the fast talker, right. 00:23:07.311 --> 00:23:09.651 You get that phone call and suddenly you're really 00:23:09.651 --> 00:23:10.701 interested in the conversation. 00:23:11.736 --> 00:23:16.236 And you just have to stop and think, wait a minute, why would my bank 00:23:17.316 --> 00:23:21.936 call me or send me an email, asking me to verify my own information. 00:23:22.566 --> 00:23:24.066 That doesn't, that doesn't make any sense. 00:23:24.576 --> 00:23:24.846 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah. 00:23:25.266 --> 00:23:26.346 Why wouldn't my bank. 00:23:26.376 --> 00:23:29.166 Call me to tell me there's a problem with my account. 00:23:29.226 --> 00:23:33.036 And the only way I can fix that is to give you a gift card code 00:23:33.036 --> 00:23:34.836 off the back of a gift card. 00:23:35.196 --> 00:23:35.616 Yeah. 00:23:39.206 --> 00:23:44.874 Craig Zweber: As I get a text message that claims that, Hey, this is my CEO, right? 00:23:44.994 --> 00:23:50.244 I'm in this important customer meeting and we forgot to bring 00:23:50.304 --> 00:23:52.404 our, you know, the gifts for them. 00:23:53.449 --> 00:23:57.739 Could you go to the store and pick up several $500 gift cards? 00:23:58.459 --> 00:23:59.359 Dave Hoekstra: It's crazy. 00:23:59.899 --> 00:24:00.349 I'm sorry. 00:24:00.379 --> 00:24:00.769 Crazy. 00:24:00.769 --> 00:24:04.549 You mentioned that because yesterday I got a text message 00:24:04.849 --> 00:24:08.329 from my son's precedent of his. 00:24:09.234 --> 00:24:09.504 Yeah. 00:24:09.984 --> 00:24:14.439 And I had never heard of that particular social engineering hack. 00:24:14.649 --> 00:24:17.619 I, you know, and so I sent my son a texts. 00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:20.199 I was like, I think I just got a text that was meant for you. 00:24:20.439 --> 00:24:23.619 And now granted, there were no links and I was literally 00:24:23.619 --> 00:24:25.029 in my head trying to conceive. 00:24:25.864 --> 00:24:30.754 How this would lead to a scam, but you just laid it out for me right there. 00:24:30.754 --> 00:24:34.804 If I had a texted back and said, Hey, what's up, I probably would have gotten 00:24:34.804 --> 00:24:38.344 that exact message of, we need to go get some gift cards for these people 00:24:38.344 --> 00:24:39.754 in this meeting or something like that. 00:24:39.874 --> 00:24:40.084 Huh? 00:24:40.114 --> 00:24:40.264 Yeah. 00:24:40.984 --> 00:24:44.164 Craig Zweber: Well, it plays out our natural wants to be good 00:24:44.164 --> 00:24:48.634 servants to be good employees, to be good people and help others out. 00:24:48.634 --> 00:24:53.111 Well, though, they'll the, the hackers will attempt to play on that. 00:24:54.161 --> 00:24:58.061 To take advantage of your, of your good nature to to help people out 00:24:58.061 --> 00:25:00.161 and, and get something for themselves. 00:25:01.151 --> 00:25:04.181 Dave Hoekstra: Well, you said something that I think really, I think 00:25:04.181 --> 00:25:05.757 we'll stick with a lot of people. 00:25:05.788 --> 00:25:08.548 You said you don't need expertise. 00:25:08.878 --> 00:25:10.398 Is that, is that fair? 00:25:10.618 --> 00:25:15.328 How, how does that, how does that phrase work in your head to secure your own data? 00:25:15.508 --> 00:25:16.388 What does that mean? 00:25:16.388 --> 00:25:20.602 Tim Wittenburg: So, so I, I think people think one of the misconceptions. 00:25:21.502 --> 00:25:25.132 Is that to be secure, you have to be some sort of wizard at, you 00:25:25.132 --> 00:25:28.192 know, all this secretive technology 00:25:28.192 --> 00:25:30.382 Dave Hoekstra: and from the matrix you have to be, 00:25:32.332 --> 00:25:35.992 Tim Wittenburg: you have to be able to crack all this fancy encryption. 00:25:36.502 --> 00:25:37.612 You know what I'm saying? 00:25:37.612 --> 00:25:38.182 And, and 00:25:38.752 --> 00:25:42.502 Craig Zweber: a hacker for 20 years before you, you earned your stripes, 00:25:42.532 --> 00:25:44.002 then you're an expert hacker. 00:25:44.692 --> 00:25:46.672 Tim Wittenburg: But if you think about what, what both Greg 00:25:46.672 --> 00:25:47.512 and I have been talking about. 00:25:48.472 --> 00:25:50.182 You get more bang for your buck. 00:25:50.332 --> 00:25:55.222 If I can use that expression, you know, more return on just doing common sense 00:25:55.222 --> 00:25:59.236 things, you know, keeping your passwords current updating your software, keeping 00:25:59.236 --> 00:26:04.156 that current being careful not to click on suspicious emails, none of these things 00:26:04.156 --> 00:26:06.316 are very technical or very complicated. 00:26:06.316 --> 00:26:06.646 And so. 00:26:07.381 --> 00:26:11.104 Literally just common sense is going to give you a very good result. 00:26:11.764 --> 00:26:15.694 Dave Hoekstra: The thing that I've taught my kids in there throughout their life 00:26:15.844 --> 00:26:22.354 and, and you know, my family and is that we as human beings have a very finely 00:26:22.354 --> 00:26:25.144 tuned sense of things not being around. 00:26:26.094 --> 00:26:30.264 But we've been taught our whole lives to ignore it, whether it's to 00:26:30.264 --> 00:26:33.924 be polite or to go with the flow. 00:26:34.404 --> 00:26:39.324 And what I teach them is that if their brain ever says, huh, that's weird 00:26:39.684 --> 00:26:41.364 that you really need to listen to them. 00:26:42.259 --> 00:26:46.249 That, that part of your brain that says that we've all gotten the emails 00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:51.469 that say, you know, Hey, this is PayPal and you need to click on this link. 00:26:51.529 --> 00:26:54.289 And if we just went, Hmm, that's weird. 00:26:54.289 --> 00:26:57.499 And then took one extra step to verify that, oh, wait, this came 00:26:57.499 --> 00:27:02.370 from like some Russian link in, in the email address that it's like, 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.080 okay, I'm not going to click on that. 00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:06.270 But I think we're you're right. 00:27:06.300 --> 00:27:09.180 We, we, we, they are very good at tapping into. 00:27:09.905 --> 00:27:15.125 Primal emotions of doing good or helping or fixing something that's broken. 00:27:15.125 --> 00:27:15.395 Right. 00:27:15.395 --> 00:27:18.965 What's the old saying that if you ever want to get responses on the internet, 00:27:18.965 --> 00:27:23.105 just post something that's incorrect and you will absolutely get it. 00:27:23.105 --> 00:27:26.465 I'm sure I'm butchering the phrase, but the, the idea. 00:27:26.495 --> 00:27:30.095 And so I think that that's really the point of what you guys are 00:27:30.095 --> 00:27:35.225 saying is, is that I can have the most, the highest ranking level. 00:27:36.025 --> 00:27:40.705 The internet security that ever, but without the instinct of something's not 00:27:40.705 --> 00:27:42.655 right here, it's not worth very much. 00:27:43.885 --> 00:27:44.425 Tim Wittenburg: That's right. 00:27:44.695 --> 00:27:44.905 That's 00:27:44.905 --> 00:27:45.145 Dave Hoekstra: right. 00:27:46.015 --> 00:27:46.405 All right. 00:27:46.405 --> 00:27:48.473 Well, this this has been absolutely. 00:27:48.623 --> 00:27:51.263 I mean, honestly, I didn't think we could possibly make a 00:27:51.263 --> 00:27:52.613 fascinating conversation out of. 00:27:53.073 --> 00:27:56.523 And that's not a knock on you guys and what you do, but we've actually 00:27:56.523 --> 00:27:59.253 done a really good job and I'm actually immensely proud of us. 00:28:00.003 --> 00:28:02.493 And if I can do to our own horn for just a minute here. 00:28:02.793 --> 00:28:07.163 So yeah, I feel like I feel like this has been a really good what I want 00:28:07.163 --> 00:28:11.633 to do is first ask you guys, is there anything else that you feel is really 00:28:11.633 --> 00:28:15.773 important to pass along to the listeners of the collaborative podcast here 00:28:16.013 --> 00:28:17.433 that could help them in their journey? 00:28:17.462 --> 00:28:21.872 Craig Zweber: If you, if you see anything suspicious, I mean, report it, I think 00:28:21.872 --> 00:28:25.892 we're getting trained to do that in the days of terrorism and all that stuff. 00:28:25.892 --> 00:28:26.132 Right. 00:28:26.132 --> 00:28:28.864 So on the on the security front, yeah. 00:28:28.894 --> 00:28:33.065 Report it to your local security official report to your local security director. 00:28:33.080 --> 00:28:34.444 Don't call us directly. 00:28:34.444 --> 00:28:38.614 We simply don't have enough time to respond to everybody, but 00:28:38.614 --> 00:28:40.804 if you see anything with any of our products and services, 00:28:40.804 --> 00:28:42.364 definitely call our support line. 00:28:42.434 --> 00:28:43.474 We're here to help. 00:28:43.504 --> 00:28:47.349 We're here to fix and make sure that that our customers have 00:28:47.349 --> 00:28:48.939 got the best service possible. 00:28:48.939 --> 00:28:50.499 Dave Hoekstra: So, okay, fantastic. 00:28:50.499 --> 00:28:54.939 So you are endorsing that if something does pop up, that raises 00:28:54.939 --> 00:28:56.799 a red flag in one of our users. 00:28:57.449 --> 00:28:59.009 Support is the way to go through 00:28:59.189 --> 00:28:59.819 Tim Wittenburg: absolutely. 00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:05.189 Craig Zweber: And support them in the, in the best way possible to 00:29:05.189 --> 00:29:06.749 ensure that our customers stay secure. 00:29:07.229 --> 00:29:07.499 Dave Hoekstra: Right. 00:29:07.499 --> 00:29:09.509 And would you say there's no red flag to. 00:29:10.914 --> 00:29:11.124 I 00:29:11.124 --> 00:29:12.924 Tim Wittenburg: would say, absolutely. 00:29:12.924 --> 00:29:15.306 So don't ignore your instinct, right? 00:29:15.306 --> 00:29:19.236 If, if something doesn't look right, you should definitely raise your 00:29:19.236 --> 00:29:21.006 hand and let somebody know about it. 00:29:21.366 --> 00:29:22.176 Craig Zweber: Fantastic. 00:29:22.236 --> 00:29:26.358 Unlike Tim and me, our support staffs are are very friendly and loving. 00:29:28.818 --> 00:29:30.708 Tim Wittenburg: There's more of them than there are of us. 00:29:31.858 --> 00:29:35.818 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah, you guys will hear, you guys will hear about it, but the, 00:29:35.828 --> 00:29:39.406 you know, let's, let's, let's follow the the, the proper protocol here. 00:29:39.436 --> 00:29:40.576 No, this has been great. 00:29:40.576 --> 00:29:42.886 You guys, I can't thank you enough for joining. 00:29:42.933 --> 00:29:45.993 I think this is going to be a really informative discussion. 00:29:45.993 --> 00:29:49.364 A lot of people are going to find some tremendous value in, so from. 00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:53.590 I appreciate your time, Craig and Tim, you guys look forward to hearing more 00:29:53.590 --> 00:29:55.120 from you over the, over the years. 00:29:55.120 --> 00:29:58.330 I have to say you guys did a fantastic presentation a couple 00:29:58.330 --> 00:30:01.570 of weeks ago, which kind of led to this podcast, which is really great. 00:30:01.570 --> 00:30:05.207 And I thank you guys for, for putting that together and really spurring 00:30:05.207 --> 00:30:08.597 a good discussion here on, on data security and what we can do there. 00:30:09.077 --> 00:30:11.507 So for those of you listening, thank you guys again for 00:30:11.507 --> 00:30:12.497 giving us some of your time. 00:30:12.497 --> 00:30:13.307 We appreciate it. 00:30:13.577 --> 00:30:14.087 And as. 00:30:14.662 --> 00:30:18.052 If there's anything we can do for you, we are available@calabrio.com. 00:30:18.262 --> 00:30:21.292 Please don't hesitate to reach out if there's questions we can answer, or if 00:30:21.292 --> 00:30:25.584 you have a great idea for a more podcast issues let's let's have a chat about it. 00:30:25.584 --> 00:30:27.864 So Craig and Tim, thank you guys again. 00:30:29.034 --> 00:30:31.284 Thanks everybody else. 00:30:31.284 --> 00:30:34.314 Have a great rest of your day and we'll talk to you soon on the next episode 00:30:34.314 --> 00:30:35.874 of working smarter from Calabrio. 00:30:35.994 --> 00:30:36.684 Thanks everybody.