WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:07.950 Warren Zenna: The CRO Spotlight Podcast, growth Forum production. 00:00:08.670 --> 00:00:12.960 Hi, I'm Warren Zena, Founder and CEO of the CRO Collective, and 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:14.680 welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. 00:00:15.990 --> 00:00:20.370 This podcast is for Chief Revenue Officers, aspiring CROs and 00:00:20.370 --> 00:00:23.520 CEOs who are looking to hire or support a CRO to succeed. 00:00:25.340 --> 00:00:29.390 To join me and my expert guests as we debate, discuss, and tackle today's 00:00:29.390 --> 00:00:32.540 complex revenue growth challenges, and provide practical insights 00:00:32.540 --> 00:00:33.950 to help CROs succeed in the role. 00:00:34.519 --> 00:00:36.860 We're really excited to have you with us now, let's get to it. 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:47.010 All right, and welcome to the episode of uh, Sierra Spotlight Podcast. 00:00:47.480 --> 00:00:48.230 I'm Warren Zena. 00:00:49.050 --> 00:00:53.040 CEO and founder of the CRO Collective, and I'm real excited today. 00:00:53.040 --> 00:00:56.130 I've got a great guest on one that, um, looking at for a long time. 00:00:57.150 --> 00:00:59.250 Salespeople often hate their CRM. 00:00:59.520 --> 00:00:59.910 Why? 00:01:00.180 --> 00:01:04.950 Because they are hard to use, difficult to customize, and expensive to maintain. 00:01:05.099 --> 00:01:09.300 This means leads and opportunities don't get updated, things get 00:01:09.300 --> 00:01:11.700 missed, and sales can suffer in. 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:14.610 Insightly is the modern CRM that teams love. 00:01:14.845 --> 00:01:19.044 Easy to use, flexible enough to support your unique needs and 00:01:19.044 --> 00:01:20.964 scales with you as you grow. 00:01:21.145 --> 00:01:26.604 This helps you sell smarter, grow faster, and build lasting customer relationships. 00:01:26.845 --> 00:01:30.234 Insightly is trusted by more than a million users worldwide. 00:01:30.565 --> 00:01:35.875 For more information, visit insightly.com/get Insightly. 00:01:37.464 --> 00:01:38.214 Lot of you know 'em. 00:01:39.450 --> 00:01:41.880 Kevin, Katie Dorsey, thank you so much for being here. 00:01:41.910 --> 00:01:45.180 So, you know, uh, Katie is, um, I listen to his podcast. 00:01:45.180 --> 00:01:46.980 I watch his YouTube stuff. 00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:50.340 I certainly follow him a lot on LinkedIn and he's a huge voice in the sales 00:01:50.340 --> 00:01:52.260 training, development, uh, community. 00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:56.120 Probably one of the tops, uh, the Live Better, sell Better podcast. 00:01:56.580 --> 00:02:00.270 I listen to, uh, you know, he's also got some really interesting things going on 00:02:00.270 --> 00:02:05.970 that I wanted to have him talk about, but I really would love Kevin for us to talk a 00:02:05.970 --> 00:02:07.710 bit about the Chief Revenue Officer role. 00:02:08.204 --> 00:02:11.415 And the way it's evolved and how Chief revenue officers, when they're 00:02:11.415 --> 00:02:15.435 trying to grab the entire revenue operation and they have to oversee 00:02:15.435 --> 00:02:19.965 sales, what your perspective is on how your training philosophies and 00:02:19.965 --> 00:02:23.894 your approaches would ladder up to somebody who oversees the bigger 00:02:23.894 --> 00:02:28.005 picture and has to integrate marketing and integrate customer success into a 00:02:28.005 --> 00:02:30.405 larger sales effort or growth effort. 00:02:30.555 --> 00:02:32.984 And that's sort of like the kickoff point, but I'd love just. 00:02:33.584 --> 00:02:34.214 Thanks for being here. 00:02:34.304 --> 00:02:35.114 Kevin Dorsey: No, I'm pump. 00:02:35.114 --> 00:02:35.864 I'm pumped for this. 00:02:35.864 --> 00:02:38.445 Cause I love, I love what you're doing with it as well, right? 00:02:38.445 --> 00:02:39.704 With a CRO collective. 00:02:39.704 --> 00:02:43.575 Cause like the higher up you go, the, the lonelier it is, the 00:02:43.579 --> 00:02:45.045 fewer people you can talk to. 00:02:45.255 --> 00:02:48.195 That's about what it is that goes on in the day-to-day life. 00:02:48.200 --> 00:02:50.265 So I, I love what's, what's happening here? 00:02:50.265 --> 00:02:51.915 I'm pump to dive in, man, so let's supposed to do it. 00:02:52.325 --> 00:02:52.674 Warren Zenna: Great. 00:02:52.674 --> 00:02:53.714 Well, you're right. 00:02:53.864 --> 00:02:58.875 Uh, it's funny when I do, I do a lot of events and talking and what happens 00:02:58.964 --> 00:03:03.810 whenever I'm finished, CROs come up to me and they say, Do you have a c o event? 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.960 Uh, membership community, because this job's lonely man. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:07.050 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:03:07.290 --> 00:03:08.190 Warren Zenna: I've got nobody to talk to. 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:11.580 You know, when I talk to my c e o, they're just barking orders at me. 00:03:11.640 --> 00:03:14.190 You know, they're looking at me like I'm, I got a number on my back. 00:03:14.910 --> 00:03:17.520 And when I talk down to my head of marketing and my head of sales, head 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.100 of customer success, they're figuring out what does he want from me. 00:03:20.100 --> 00:03:22.050 You know, I just, there's no one for me to turn to. 00:03:22.710 --> 00:03:27.330 And the other thing too is, as you know, CROs are typically, they come from sales. 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:28.140 They're competitive. 00:03:28.920 --> 00:03:31.109 It's hard to get another CRO to tell you what's going on cuz they 00:03:31.109 --> 00:03:33.450 sort of like wanna keep their mask on, like things are going great 00:03:33.450 --> 00:03:34.590 and things are rocking it right. 00:03:34.619 --> 00:03:35.250 When it's not. 00:03:35.250 --> 00:03:36.030 It's really tough. 00:03:36.510 --> 00:03:38.310 So you're right, it is lonely. 00:03:38.670 --> 00:03:43.470 And so I would say when you think about the work that you've been doing, 00:03:43.475 --> 00:03:46.079 especially as things have evolved over the last, let's say five years, 00:03:46.079 --> 00:03:48.630 I think it's been a huge evolution of things in the last five years. 00:03:49.170 --> 00:03:52.530 Covid being part of it, but I also think also I think there's 00:03:52.530 --> 00:03:56.429 some maturity going on in the marketplace around this hyper-growth 00:03:56.429 --> 00:03:57.720 and how it hasn't been working. 00:03:58.515 --> 00:04:01.965 When you think about a Chief revenue officer whose job is to manage and 00:04:01.965 --> 00:04:06.635 wrangle together everybody, and also create outcomes for both the CEO 00:04:06.635 --> 00:04:10.274 and the board, what are some initial things you think about that a Chief 00:04:10.274 --> 00:04:13.875 Revenue Officer needs to be conscious of and from a standpoint of developing 00:04:13.875 --> 00:04:15.555 training all, all their organizations? 00:04:15.734 --> 00:04:18.885 Kevin Dorsey: Well, so first, it's remembering what the R in 00:04:18.885 --> 00:04:21.885 C R O stands for, it's revenue. 00:04:22.485 --> 00:04:28.725 Whereas a lot of CROs that I know and speak to still think it's a, you know, 00:04:28.725 --> 00:04:34.965 a CSO role where it's Chief Sales Officer, like they came from sales, so 00:04:34.965 --> 00:04:40.605 they think about sales and they don't do a great job of thinking about revenue, 00:04:41.065 --> 00:04:45.855 where there are different ways to get to the number that they're supposed to. 00:04:45.855 --> 00:04:49.605 It's almost always being looked at as like new bookings or new customers. 00:04:49.905 --> 00:04:56.385 Whereas a two point reduction in churn and an expansion edition of 5%, you don't even 00:04:56.385 --> 00:04:57.825 have to grow your sales team this year. 00:04:57.825 --> 00:04:59.295 You could actually expand there. 00:04:59.295 --> 00:05:04.785 So it's one just remembering its revenue and how each one of the, um, 00:05:04.845 --> 00:05:07.525 orgs connects to that as a company. 00:05:08.610 --> 00:05:12.150 But the, the big one man that I'm working on a lot with people and 00:05:12.150 --> 00:05:15.480 you know, I just stepped back into a senior revenue role and, you know, I 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.380 have, I have all the orgs except for marketing, but I feel like I'll probably 00:05:19.385 --> 00:05:21.300 have that one by the end of the year. 00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:23.280 Cause I brought my VP of marketing over with me. 00:05:23.460 --> 00:05:23.550 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:05:23.551 --> 00:05:24.901 Kevin Dorsey: So that one's, you know, gonna play out there 00:05:25.590 --> 00:05:30.090 is really operationalizing what you're looking to do. 00:05:30.390 --> 00:05:34.410 So like I have a leadership methodology that I roll out across all my orgs. 00:05:34.905 --> 00:05:39.195 Because it applies to all of the orgs in terms of what we 00:05:39.195 --> 00:05:40.875 look at and how we function. 00:05:40.875 --> 00:05:45.284 And so I think that's really the key also, is that chief is, you have to kind of roll 00:05:45.284 --> 00:05:49.365 out that methodology of how does your team communicate, how do they look at metrics, 00:05:49.365 --> 00:05:53.094 how do they understand the data, what is expected from them on a regular basis? 00:05:53.534 --> 00:05:54.765 And setting that vision. 00:05:54.974 --> 00:05:58.545 That's where I see more CROs kind of miss, is they get so 00:05:58.545 --> 00:06:00.105 obsessed just on the dollar. 00:06:00.450 --> 00:06:03.420 And they don't think about what they need to do to connect 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:04.740 all the orgs together, right? 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:06.060 Warren Zenna: I you're a hundred percent right. 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:07.470 That is, that is the problem. 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:09.870 I say it's coming from two places. 00:06:10.710 --> 00:06:15.030 One, and this is cuz I speak to probably like eight CROs a week, is 00:06:17.190 --> 00:06:18.930 most CROs come from sales, right? 00:06:18.930 --> 00:06:19.820 So they're, they're leaders already. 00:06:19.850 --> 00:06:20.881 They know how to do that. 00:06:20.886 --> 00:06:23.640 That's how they've proven themselves and that's how they got the job. 00:06:24.195 --> 00:06:26.715 So when they step into this new thing, they're always gonna lead 00:06:26.715 --> 00:06:29.085 with their strengths, which is growing sales organizations. 00:06:29.115 --> 00:06:29.385 Kevin Dorsey: Right. 00:06:29.445 --> 00:06:32.295 Warren Zenna: And they kind of forget that they have to switch their paradigm. 00:06:32.745 --> 00:06:32.835 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:06:33.080 --> 00:06:35.385 Warren Zenna: And kind of like, not bias the sales organization, but it's 00:06:35.385 --> 00:06:37.155 hard to do when the pressure's on. 00:06:37.755 --> 00:06:40.395 It's easier to just run over to your sales organization and just make that work 00:06:40.395 --> 00:06:43.185 because you're not gonna get, you know, it's not like you're gonna get yelled at 00:06:43.185 --> 00:06:45.495 for that, but it's, it's not on point. 00:06:45.495 --> 00:06:48.375 And then the second part of that is that is enabled. 00:06:48.974 --> 00:06:53.505 By the organization who also is feeling the pinch and wants the sales to grow. 00:06:53.625 --> 00:06:53.715 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:06:53.955 --> 00:06:56.655 Warren Zenna: And so when you drift over into the sales channel to kind 00:06:56.655 --> 00:07:01.005 of keep yourself secure in your job, it's almost like everyone's saying, 00:07:01.005 --> 00:07:02.445 well, that's actually not a bad idea. 00:07:02.445 --> 00:07:05.684 And then what, what ends up happening with my clients is they get stuck there. 00:07:06.270 --> 00:07:10.500 They can't get back to the strategic role because they sort of drifted 00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:14.190 to sales to kind of save themselves and they lost the bigger picture. 00:07:14.250 --> 00:07:17.039 So what we're trying to do, and I think it'll be interesting to get 00:07:17.039 --> 00:07:21.390 your perspective on this, is how does an organization then ensure 00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:25.800 that sales doesn't get biased with a CRO role and keep the strategic. 00:07:26.235 --> 00:07:29.985 Uh, function going without giving into the pressure of trying to use that 00:07:29.985 --> 00:07:31.455 person to grow the pipeline all the time. 00:07:31.455 --> 00:07:33.525 Kevin Dorsey: So the, the first answer will be a cop out. 00:07:33.525 --> 00:07:37.245 We won't spend a lot of time on it, but like it starts with the CEO and 00:07:37.245 --> 00:07:41.775 what directions they are giving and allowing, like how they built the comp 00:07:41.775 --> 00:07:47.325 plan, how the goals are being set, all of that cuz CEOs, investors, and boards 00:07:47.325 --> 00:07:48.945 are just as bad as everybody else. 00:07:49.245 --> 00:07:51.075 Is when things get tight, they do. 00:07:51.075 --> 00:07:52.665 It sounds like, hey, we just need to grow more. 00:07:52.665 --> 00:07:54.195 So they Yep, push that. 00:07:54.615 --> 00:07:54.855 Right? 00:07:54.855 --> 00:07:56.295 So that's the cop out answer. 00:07:56.295 --> 00:07:59.895 There's not too much we can do about that other than communicating up properly. 00:08:00.735 --> 00:08:03.105 If I think about it, like the way I approach it is I 00:08:03.105 --> 00:08:05.805 wish more CROs understood. 00:08:05.865 --> 00:08:07.336 I made up a word two years ago. 00:08:07.635 --> 00:08:09.525 No God, it was three years ago at a conference. 00:08:09.855 --> 00:08:11.955 You know, the topic was alignment, right? 00:08:11.955 --> 00:08:12.045 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:08:12.045 --> 00:08:14.925 Kevin Dorsey: Similar topic, like how do you align all of your orgs? 00:08:15.255 --> 00:08:17.505 And I said, actually, I don't like that word. 00:08:17.909 --> 00:08:21.120 Because you can be aligned, but be in different lanes. 00:08:22.409 --> 00:08:24.930 The word I changed it to was leverage. 00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:25.229 Right? 00:08:25.229 --> 00:08:27.630 Leverage was the word that I came up with. 00:08:27.630 --> 00:08:27.690 Warren Zenna: Hmm. 00:08:28.380 --> 00:08:31.409 Kevin Dorsey: And so if a CRO sat down and said, how can I 00:08:31.414 --> 00:08:34.890 leverage CS to improve my sales? 00:08:35.669 --> 00:08:39.059 How can I leverage sales to improve my marketing? 00:08:39.539 --> 00:08:43.350 How could I leverage marketing to improve CS and sales? 00:08:43.355 --> 00:08:45.150 It changes what you look for. 00:08:45.810 --> 00:08:47.670 Right, so I'm looking for leverage. 00:08:47.699 --> 00:08:50.010 So classic example, okay. 00:08:50.160 --> 00:08:56.130 Who tends to know the voice of the prospect better sales, marketing, or CS. 00:08:56.940 --> 00:08:59.790 Warren Zenna: CS, I think, in my opinion, the, the, 00:08:59.880 --> 00:09:03.450 Kevin Dorsey: So no, you, you not quite the prospect, not the customer. 00:09:03.450 --> 00:09:03.960 I'm gonna get to that. 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:04.380 Warren Zenna: Oh, I'll follow you. 00:09:04.500 --> 00:09:04.710 Okay. 00:09:04.715 --> 00:09:05.190 I gotcha. 00:09:05.195 --> 00:09:05.370 Yeah. 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:07.500 So it's gonna be the sales people who know the prospect, 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:08.940 Kevin Dorsey: best sales team knows. 00:09:08.945 --> 00:09:09.090 Warren Zenna: Sure. 00:09:09.450 --> 00:09:10.860 Kevin Dorsey: The language of the prospect more. 00:09:11.310 --> 00:09:12.810 Are they sharing that with marketing? 00:09:13.260 --> 00:09:16.090 To make the ads better, to get the objection sheets handled, 00:09:16.090 --> 00:09:19.180 to get the testimonials needed to handle the objections. 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:23.530 Who knows more about what customers do and prospects do without us, right? 00:09:23.530 --> 00:09:24.490 What their behavior is? 00:09:24.490 --> 00:09:25.300 Well, that's with marketing. 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:26.800 What are they searching for? 00:09:26.800 --> 00:09:27.970 What are they downloading? 00:09:27.970 --> 00:09:29.080 What are those keywords? 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:30.190 What are the long tails? 00:09:30.370 --> 00:09:33.160 Well, that makes my sales org better in terms of my prospecting 00:09:33.160 --> 00:09:36.430 messaging, my cadence is everything there, and then you nailed it. 00:09:36.490 --> 00:09:36.880 Who knows? 00:09:36.880 --> 00:09:38.290 The voice of the customer the best. 00:09:39.030 --> 00:09:40.170 Warren Zenna: Customer success, obviously. 00:09:40.170 --> 00:09:40.380 Sure. 00:09:40.380 --> 00:09:40.980 Customer success. 00:09:41.610 --> 00:09:43.320 Kevin Dorsey: How can marketing leverage that? 00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:44.100 Mm-hmm. 00:09:44.185 --> 00:09:48.180 Because oftentimes marketing like rarely talks to CS. 00:09:48.780 --> 00:09:51.870 They'll talk to sales sometimes, but they rarely talk. 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:57.090 To see us, and so what I try to encourage people to do is stop asking and looking 00:09:57.090 --> 00:09:59.160 for alignment, but look for leverage. 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:03.720 What does each org have access to that the other orgs don't? 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:08.220 That would make the other orgs better because we also know there's things sales 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:09.760 could do that would make CSS job easier. 00:10:10.995 --> 00:10:12.435 We know that for sure. 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:12.535 Sure. 00:10:12.795 --> 00:10:14.535 Think about it that way. 00:10:14.565 --> 00:10:14.625 Yeah. 00:10:14.625 --> 00:10:18.765 So I'll pause there, but it's looking for leverage, not alignment across the orgs. 00:10:18.945 --> 00:10:19.545 Warren Zenna: That's great. 00:10:19.725 --> 00:10:20.715 I really like that. 00:10:20.715 --> 00:10:25.125 I would say the thing that's the challenge because you, you are correct. 00:10:25.125 --> 00:10:30.075 I mean, alignment is, I, I think leverage is more of a, it, it it's more 00:10:30.075 --> 00:10:33.345 of an actionable, or it's more of an intentional way of looking at it, right? 00:10:33.345 --> 00:10:33.585 Mm-hmm. 00:10:33.675 --> 00:10:36.975 Looking at a way to improve something or do something or utilize something, 00:10:37.785 --> 00:10:41.940 um, is that, With the, with the, with the Chief Revenue Officer. 00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:43.440 This is what's important about the role. 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.250 To kind of follow on that same theme, is that you need, in my view, and I 00:10:47.250 --> 00:10:52.410 think this is what's missing in my, when you have silos or misalignment, If 00:10:52.410 --> 00:10:57.060 you don't have somebody that's looking at that leverage or responsible for 00:10:57.060 --> 00:10:59.070 that leverage, you don't get it, right. 00:10:59.070 --> 00:10:59.430 You don't. 00:10:59.730 --> 00:11:02.040 It's not like marketing gets up independently, walks over 00:11:02.040 --> 00:11:02.910 to the sales department. 00:11:02.910 --> 00:11:05.850 Asking questions mean maybe you do sometimes, and most of the time you don't. 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:08.790 They're, they have independent mo, um, KPIs. 00:11:08.790 --> 00:11:09.930 They're fighting against each other. 00:11:09.935 --> 00:11:12.210 Sometimes they argue with each other. 00:11:12.385 --> 00:11:14.975 You know, the stuff that marketing gives, sales doesn't work for them. 00:11:14.980 --> 00:11:17.765 So instead of them saying something, they just don't use it, you know? 00:11:17.845 --> 00:11:18.265 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:11:18.405 --> 00:11:21.485 Warren Zenna: But if you have this, uh, leader, which we call the Chief 00:11:21.485 --> 00:11:25.895 Revenue officer, who is looking to leverage them, that CRO is going to 00:11:25.900 --> 00:11:28.685 encourage discussion and create it. 00:11:28.690 --> 00:11:32.465 So it's not even as much just a matter of saying, Hey guys, talk to each other. 00:11:32.470 --> 00:11:32.785 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:11:32.915 --> 00:11:36.245 Warren Zenna: It also, you have to bake it into the process where the KPIs and 00:11:36.245 --> 00:11:39.395 the global revenue, um, goals force. 00:11:39.699 --> 00:11:40.329 Leverage. 00:11:40.510 --> 00:11:40.599 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:11:40.839 --> 00:11:43.900 Warren Zenna: So that in order for me to hit my goals, I need to 00:11:43.900 --> 00:11:47.229 talk to sales in order for, cuz it's all about motivation, right? 00:11:47.229 --> 00:11:48.459 How people are incentivized. 00:11:48.459 --> 00:11:51.670 And I think this is where a lot of it comes into play, is building a system 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:56.020 that's designed to have people collaborate with each other because the outcomes. 00:11:56.320 --> 00:12:00.220 Require it, and that's where I think a CRO is gonna be most effective. 00:12:00.220 --> 00:12:01.510 I'd love to hear what you think about that. 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:06.100 Kevin Dorsey: Yeah, I think it gets a little tricky towards the end of like 00:12:06.100 --> 00:12:11.710 tying different orgs to different results that they may not be fully attached to. 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:15.100 But I do like, like the concept, whether there's a of company bonus 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:20.200 or team bonus of like, Hey, if we get to this, we go through it. 00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:23.830 I'd like it truthfully about setting the expectation and 00:12:23.835 --> 00:12:25.390 then inspecting what you expect. 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:26.100 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:12:26.490 --> 00:12:29.820 Kevin Dorsey: Like it's not even like, Hey, y'all should, it's like say you 00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:35.850 were my VP of sales, like Warren, I need you to meet with marketing and 00:12:35.850 --> 00:12:41.580 share with them the top five objections you are losing deals for right now, so 00:12:41.585 --> 00:12:43.110 they can go create content around it. 00:12:43.140 --> 00:12:43.590 Mm-hmm. 00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:44.730 Can you do that? 00:12:44.800 --> 00:12:45.020 Yes. 00:12:45.130 --> 00:12:47.580 Then I meet with Jared, my VP of market on Thursday. 00:12:47.610 --> 00:12:48.570 Did you get. 00:12:49.305 --> 00:12:53.565 The five top closed, lost reasons right now from Warren on how 00:12:53.565 --> 00:12:55.485 we are losing deals right now. 00:12:55.485 --> 00:12:59.175 What is your marketing plan and videos to address that? 00:12:59.775 --> 00:13:03.105 Hey, VP of sales, did you talk like, so it's, it's coordinating, 00:13:03.105 --> 00:13:07.635 like I really view my role in a C R O role as It's almost like an 00:13:07.640 --> 00:13:09.315 offensive or defensive coordinator. 00:13:09.325 --> 00:13:09.815 Warren Zenna: Exactly. 00:13:10.125 --> 00:13:11.655 Kevin Dorsey: We're we're not the ones doing it. 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.430 But dammit, we have to be the ones aligning and leveraging 00:13:16.430 --> 00:13:18.170 where we ensure it happens. 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:19.880 Because the flip side's also true. 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.940 You're my VP of sales and I ask you to bring that to 00:13:22.940 --> 00:13:24.770 marketing, and then you don't. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.210 Well then I know where I have a weak link in the chain. 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:31.610 I go to marketing to say, Hey, Warren brought this to you. 00:13:31.880 --> 00:13:32.690 What have you done with it? 00:13:33.290 --> 00:13:33.860 Nothing. 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.420 I know where I have a weak link. 00:13:36.420 --> 00:13:37.230 So it's like that. 00:13:37.290 --> 00:13:38.460 Like you, you nailed it. 00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:40.890 Like that's what the CRO is supposed to be doing. 00:13:41.160 --> 00:13:41.370 Yes. 00:13:41.370 --> 00:13:46.500 Is ensuring that all of these pieces are working together, not just looking 00:13:46.505 --> 00:13:48.210 at the sales org and saying that. 00:13:48.210 --> 00:13:51.810 Cause also, by the way, the tips I'm giving will improve your sales org. 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:55.380 If they, if they understood the voice of the customer better, your 00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:56.520 sales team's gonna get better. 00:13:56.580 --> 00:13:59.910 If marketing was making collateral that actually used, they would get better. 00:13:59.915 --> 00:14:02.280 If they knew the top closed lost reasons and how they could get 00:14:02.280 --> 00:14:03.360 ahead of that, they'd be better. 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.050 And by the way, this also feeds the product because I do not 00:14:07.055 --> 00:14:10.290 ask my product team to build things I'm not losing deals over. 00:14:10.540 --> 00:14:10.760 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:12.270 Kevin Dorsey: That happens all the time, too. 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.000 CROs listening, you know, you do that, you go to product and you're 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:16.500 like, Hey, like we need this feature. 00:14:16.890 --> 00:14:18.510 And it's for like one customer. 00:14:19.390 --> 00:14:19.680 Warren Zenna: Yeah. 00:14:19.770 --> 00:14:23.010 Kevin Dorsey: And you can't actually justify it, but you go ask for it. 00:14:23.280 --> 00:14:26.280 If I'm not losing deals over that feature, I'm not asking for it. 00:14:26.310 --> 00:14:26.550 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:14:26.699 --> 00:14:27.480 That's a good point. 00:14:27.480 --> 00:14:32.910 So you just made an important distinction, and that is the leaders of 00:14:32.910 --> 00:14:34.770 those functions and their competence. 00:14:34.770 --> 00:14:35.010 Right. 00:14:35.015 --> 00:14:37.680 So when you're evalu, when I, I look at it this way, I, I'd like 00:14:37.685 --> 00:14:38.400 to hear you the points in this. 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:42.480 So when you're evaluating your, um, head of marketing, your head of sales, and 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.030 your head of customer success within the organizational framework that you 00:14:45.030 --> 00:14:46.319 and I are kind of thinking at right now. 00:14:47.594 --> 00:14:51.975 The way I look at it is, The best VP of sales, the best head of marketing, 00:14:51.975 --> 00:14:56.595 the best customer success leader maybe doesn't certainly have expertise in 00:14:56.595 --> 00:15:00.225 selling or running a sales team, but they certainly understand the importance 00:15:00.225 --> 00:15:03.645 of how that data affects their job, and they're looking for it, right? 00:15:03.645 --> 00:15:07.276 They're actively saying, all right, I'm not just a silo, and I know that. 00:15:07.849 --> 00:15:10.640 If I don't go over and talk to my head of sales about the way customers are 00:15:10.640 --> 00:15:14.180 responding to things and it's prospecting conversations, then I'm just not doing 00:15:14.180 --> 00:15:15.829 my job, cuz that's part of the job. 00:15:16.339 --> 00:15:19.310 So if I'm evaluating a head of sales or head of marketing 00:15:19.310 --> 00:15:20.569 customer, I'm gonna ask them. 00:15:20.985 --> 00:15:24.885 What do you think, uh, marketing's contribution is to how sales works, right? 00:15:24.915 --> 00:15:27.165 And the answer that they're gonna gimme me is, gimme a lot of insights 00:15:27.165 --> 00:15:29.685 into the way that they think about that organization and it's gonna 00:15:29.685 --> 00:15:32.385 gimme insights in the way that they're gonna interact with that organization. 00:15:32.925 --> 00:15:36.765 And I think what happens too often is there's, cause I, I work with clients 00:15:36.765 --> 00:15:41.535 on hiring and so the questions I usually get looked at around, well check this 00:15:41.535 --> 00:15:44.444 guy out, find out how well he's run sales organizations, what his success 00:15:44.444 --> 00:15:46.235 track record's been on growing XY. 00:15:46.485 --> 00:15:49.530 But what I rarely hear is, Find out what their thoughts are on how they 00:15:49.530 --> 00:15:50.970 work with a marketing organization. 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.670 They never asked me to ask 'em that question, like, why 00:15:53.670 --> 00:15:54.930 wouldn't you wanna know that? 00:15:55.050 --> 00:15:55.980 Answer that question. 00:15:56.370 --> 00:16:00.000 And I think it's because there's, in leadership, there still exists as silo. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:00.270 Right? 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:05.550 I, I think that organization CEOs need to have a greater, broader understanding 00:16:05.550 --> 00:16:07.450 of the way a revenue operation works. 00:16:07.830 --> 00:16:10.110 It's the three most important. 00:16:10.935 --> 00:16:14.625 Customer facing parts of your business and they all are related to each other. 00:16:14.625 --> 00:16:17.325 And I do think that the rev ops, this, I wanna talk to you about this. 00:16:17.625 --> 00:16:22.035 The rise in the Rev ops model, which you're obviously speak to a lot, is 00:16:22.095 --> 00:16:27.805 creating more awareness of how data is used to connect a lot of different pieces 00:16:28.155 --> 00:16:32.505 and disparate pieces of the process and how you see that being working right 00:16:32.505 --> 00:16:34.305 now in your conversations with clients. 00:16:34.485 --> 00:16:40.620 I do think that that the rev ops and tech stack optimization model, Is driving a 00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:44.520 lot more conversation around awareness of groups and how they work together. 00:16:44.550 --> 00:16:47.490 Kevin Dorsey: Ah, you used the word I was hoping you, you would. 00:16:47.640 --> 00:16:50.640 So might be a hot take. 00:16:51.660 --> 00:16:57.250 I don't love what revenue operations has become because I believe it's lost sight 00:16:57.510 --> 00:16:58.712 of what it was actually supposed to be. 00:16:58.890 --> 00:17:02.490 Which was the other O word you used, which is optimize. 00:17:02.990 --> 00:17:03.410 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:06.240 Kevin Dorsey: Oh my goodness. 00:17:06.270 --> 00:17:09.660 Have we gone deep in revenue operations? 00:17:09.930 --> 00:17:10.050 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:17:10.379 --> 00:17:15.780 Kevin Dorsey: Tooling the data, the connections, the dashboards. 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:20.849 Like all like we have operations for everything. 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:29.220 Very few rev ops orgs and leaders, to me, I feel, are focused on optimization. 00:17:29.639 --> 00:17:29.760 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:32.780 Kevin Dorsey: Meaning making things better. 00:17:34.275 --> 00:17:38.115 That I feel has been lost in, in all of this. 00:17:38.115 --> 00:17:40.905 And so one of the questions I asked, like when I'm interviewing Rev ops 00:17:41.145 --> 00:17:43.545 people, is like, look, cuz they will, they'll talk about the data. 00:17:43.875 --> 00:17:44.745 I can't remember who said it. 00:17:44.750 --> 00:17:45.825 Y'all can go Google it. 00:17:45.825 --> 00:17:49.635 It's one of my favorite quotes is, you know, we are drowning in 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:51.595 data, but starving for insights. 00:17:52.445 --> 00:17:52.665 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:17:53.205 --> 00:17:55.155 Kevin Dorsey: Can't remember who said it, but if you can't find 00:17:55.155 --> 00:17:56.505 it, then it's me, quote me for it. 00:17:56.775 --> 00:17:57.225 Warren Zenna: Got it. 00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.520 Kevin Dorsey: And it's so true. 00:17:59.525 --> 00:18:02.520 It's like rev ops will be bubbling up all of this data, all these 00:18:02.520 --> 00:18:03.990 numbers, but there's no insight. 00:18:04.050 --> 00:18:06.690 Aka, what am I supposed to do with it? 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:08.040 Where are my levers? 00:18:08.310 --> 00:18:12.030 And so when I'm interviewing Rev ops leaders, what I'm asking them is, can 00:18:12.030 --> 00:18:17.040 you gimme an example of when you found the diamond in the data and we're able to 00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:19.800 craft a strategy on how to leverage it. 00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:26.505 So Rev ops to me, I think initially was, was created because, Also funny 00:18:26.505 --> 00:18:30.375 to me is a lot of, you know, VPs and CROs aren't great with data. 00:18:30.405 --> 00:18:30.465 No. 00:18:30.675 --> 00:18:31.755 Which is surprising to me. 00:18:31.785 --> 00:18:34.695 Like I, like, I feel like it's just table stakes at this point. 00:18:35.175 --> 00:18:38.085 And so, but you had to create an org apparently to. 00:18:38.490 --> 00:18:43.140 Do this now, but now what you have is you have a data focused org 00:18:43.320 --> 00:18:46.770 with a C R O that still doesn't understand how to interpret the data. 00:18:47.010 --> 00:18:47.100 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:18:47.340 --> 00:18:51.150 Kevin Dorsey: Which then, then allows rev op sometimes to carry too much weight. 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:57.100 And I've experienced this where they go to finance and go, Hey, these industries 00:18:57.390 --> 00:19:03.780 over here close twice as high, so we should be going after them more. 00:19:04.830 --> 00:19:07.800 And then finance puts that into a plan and says, well these close 00:19:07.800 --> 00:19:10.950 at a higher two x higher clip, so your conversion rate should go up. 00:19:10.950 --> 00:19:13.290 Therefore the assumption this plan should rise. 00:19:13.295 --> 00:19:13.640 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:18.450 Kevin Dorsey: And you go, if I could just go get them, don't you think I would like, 00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:22.920 do you think I'm intentionally not going after the higher converting channels? 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:23.070 Warren Zenna: Right. 00:19:23.100 --> 00:19:24.840 Kevin Dorsey: So like sometimes rev ops, again, cause they 00:19:24.840 --> 00:19:26.400 don't understand the sales side, 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:27.060 Warren Zenna: right. 00:19:27.330 --> 00:19:29.070 Kevin Dorsey: They, they make assumptions that they shouldn't. 00:19:29.070 --> 00:19:31.560 So that's my hot take on rev ops. 00:19:31.560 --> 00:19:36.210 We're like conceptually, I agree with it in execution. 00:19:36.690 --> 00:19:38.430 It's far from optimized. 00:19:38.550 --> 00:19:38.790 Look. 00:19:38.790 --> 00:19:40.720 Look at where we are right now in the industry. 00:19:41.294 --> 00:19:45.405 Like we have gotten so far away from optimizing cuz we've been so focused on 00:19:45.405 --> 00:19:48.645 operations that things aren't getting better, we're just doing more of stuff. 00:19:48.705 --> 00:19:49.304 Warren Zenna: Yep, yep. 00:19:49.310 --> 00:19:54.284 And I, I do think that the, um, busy work is a very good, it hides people behind. 00:19:54.284 --> 00:19:57.585 Well, I'm busy and I'm working on stuff and look at me, go and 00:19:57.585 --> 00:19:58.875 look at my hand on the keyboard. 00:19:58.875 --> 00:19:59.905 Boy am I busy mo about. 00:19:59.905 --> 00:20:00.065 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:20:00.185 --> 00:20:03.705 Warren Zenna: And I, I do think that it, we've created a software nightmare. 00:20:04.074 --> 00:20:07.225 And I look at Tech Stacks now and I can't believe all the stuff that people have 00:20:07.225 --> 00:20:11.064 piled upon themselves and how you could possibly extract any value out of them. 00:20:11.544 --> 00:20:14.245 And a lot of these things are bought because, you know, one person in one 00:20:14.245 --> 00:20:17.665 department sold upstream to the head of sales and said, we really need gong. 00:20:17.665 --> 00:20:20.274 And nothing against Gong, but you know, it's just another one of the things that, 00:20:20.334 --> 00:20:23.574 you know, another tool that people use that only a quarter of the organization 00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:25.014 actually uses properly and only a. 00:20:25.635 --> 00:20:28.215 But if small, minuscule that actually gets anything out of it. 00:20:28.215 --> 00:20:28.965 That makes any sense. 00:20:28.965 --> 00:20:31.514 And I spoke to the folks over there and they told me people really aren't 00:20:31.514 --> 00:20:32.925 using it as well as they should be. 00:20:33.345 --> 00:20:34.395 So I think you're right. 00:20:34.395 --> 00:20:38.445 I think a lot of this has to do with, um, losing focus on what matters. 00:20:38.445 --> 00:20:38.745 Right. 00:20:38.745 --> 00:20:42.345 And so to that end, right, i, I, me and I are completely aligned on this. 00:20:42.345 --> 00:20:45.345 The idea behind rev ops is it's an optimization system. 00:20:45.375 --> 00:20:48.105 It's supposed to be designed to take the data. 00:20:49.170 --> 00:20:53.100 Find the data that matters, remove the data that doesn't matter, which 00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:54.660 is Des, in my opinion, distractions. 00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:55.380 That's all that is. 00:20:55.800 --> 00:20:59.040 Because look, let's face it, if I have a mountain of data and I 00:20:59.040 --> 00:21:01.770 don't know what data's good, I'm not gonna get rid of anything. 00:21:01.770 --> 00:21:03.030 Cause I'm afraid I'm gonna throw out the good stuff. 00:21:03.030 --> 00:21:04.140 So instead, I'm not gonna do anything. 00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:05.460 I'm just gonna sit, look at a pile, right? 00:21:05.580 --> 00:21:05.670 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:07.380 Warren Zenna: And so I'm looking at a pile all day long. 00:21:07.800 --> 00:21:11.580 So a really good rev op function will make sense of that and say, no, no, no. 00:21:11.580 --> 00:21:13.379 This is the only stuff that really matters. 00:21:13.379 --> 00:21:16.170 And usually, and you and I both know, usually a very small 00:21:16.175 --> 00:21:17.280 amount of things really matter. 00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:18.629 It's like these things are key. 00:21:18.635 --> 00:21:18.690 Yeah. 00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:22.830 And if you focus on these things, uh, it's, it's much like the, 00:21:22.835 --> 00:21:24.149 the money ball model, right? 00:21:24.155 --> 00:21:26.530 I mean, that was a great scene, which everyone knows when he's 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:32.070 explaining to him, you gotta get on base, this guy gets on base. 00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:35.910 Cuz when people get on base, that means they can be set up to score. 00:21:36.554 --> 00:21:38.145 I don't care about home runs or mm-hmm. 00:21:38.745 --> 00:21:40.125 Steal stolen bases. 00:21:40.125 --> 00:21:42.585 Those things are all great for vanity and the crowd goes nuts. 00:21:42.615 --> 00:21:43.845 We need people to get on base. 00:21:44.324 --> 00:21:47.804 So how do we find people that get on base that, that's such a great analogy for the 00:21:47.810 --> 00:21:52.074 way I think Rev op should be working is identify your company's key optimized. 00:21:52.830 --> 00:21:56.550 Um, events and then build an organization that forces those things 00:21:56.550 --> 00:21:59.730 to happen until they don't work anymore and then make them better, right? 00:21:59.880 --> 00:21:59.970 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:02.940 Warren Zenna: So I think that, again, this is kinda leads to a second 00:22:02.945 --> 00:22:04.890 question, which you just hinted at. 00:22:05.190 --> 00:22:06.570 What makes a better c r o? 00:22:07.080 --> 00:22:08.220 Is it a sales leader? 00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:09.660 Is it a rev ops person? 00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:10.920 Like, what's the profile? 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.310 If you were to take, uh, if you're recruiting like a quarterback at 00:22:14.310 --> 00:22:16.890 the CRO , what are the sort of competencies that you're looking 00:22:16.890 --> 00:22:19.650 for that make the CRO one that you think would probably best succeed? 00:22:20.205 --> 00:22:24.195 Kevin Dorsey: So for sure, the first thing I'm looking at is, call 00:22:24.195 --> 00:22:25.514 it cross-functional leadership. 00:22:25.665 --> 00:22:27.585 Are they able to connect the dots? 00:22:28.485 --> 00:22:28.725 Right? 00:22:28.784 --> 00:22:31.875 So I'm looking for examples of how have you leveraged 00:22:32.415 --> 00:22:34.784 your CS org to increase sales? 00:22:34.784 --> 00:22:39.165 How have you leveraged your sales org to increase lead flow from marketing? 00:22:39.165 --> 00:22:43.875 So I'm looking for examples of how have they connected the dots between their 00:22:43.875 --> 00:22:45.885 org, what is their operating cadence? 00:22:45.945 --> 00:22:47.115 That's a one big chunk. 00:22:47.264 --> 00:22:47.355 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:48.555 Kevin Dorsey: The second is data. 00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:54.450 But not just data, it's the interpretation, but then the optimization. 00:22:54.450 --> 00:22:58.680 So one of my favorite questions to ask as senior sales leaders, tell me 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:03.360 about a time you identified something in the data that was holding back 00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:08.530 your team, or was a potential lever, how you found it, what you did about 00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:10.920 it, and what the end result was. 00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:11.610 Warren Zenna: Hmm. 00:23:12.675 --> 00:23:16.245 Kevin Dorsey: Okay, because this is gonna give me the full scope of one. 00:23:16.245 --> 00:23:17.295 Do they understand at it? 00:23:17.295 --> 00:23:19.605 And this is where I'm really listening to how they answer. 00:23:20.385 --> 00:23:22.845 Well, my rev ops team brought Nope. 00:23:22.875 --> 00:23:23.565 Already off. 00:23:23.565 --> 00:23:24.825 Someone else found it for you. 00:23:25.365 --> 00:23:25.785 Warren Zenna: Got it. 00:23:25.845 --> 00:23:25.935 Mm-hmm. 00:23:26.535 --> 00:23:29.955 Kevin Dorsey: I want to know how you have discovered this, 00:23:30.435 --> 00:23:32.625 but then what you did about it. 00:23:33.015 --> 00:23:33.405 Right. 00:23:33.975 --> 00:23:37.245 That's like the, the missing sauce for a lot is, it sounds a lot like 00:23:37.245 --> 00:23:39.765 this and it starts to get into my methodology a little bit more. 00:23:39.765 --> 00:23:39.855 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:23:40.095 --> 00:23:43.410 Kevin Dorsey: It's like, First, a lot of leaders used results-based language. 00:23:43.410 --> 00:23:44.850 Hey, we need more pipeline. 00:23:45.630 --> 00:23:46.950 Hey, we gotta bring up our sales. 00:23:47.250 --> 00:23:48.420 We need churn to come down. 00:23:50.220 --> 00:23:52.410 Okay, that's great. 00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:53.100 Right. 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.430 So what I teach people is you can't change a result without changing a metric. 00:23:56.790 --> 00:23:57.000 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:23:57.570 --> 00:24:00.600 Kevin Dorsey: So each one of my orgs has their number one metric with them. 00:24:00.605 --> 00:24:02.310 Number one metric they are focused on. 00:24:03.450 --> 00:24:07.020 But then in order to change that metric, you have to change a behavior, 00:24:07.025 --> 00:24:09.900 individual process skill, or you. 00:24:10.544 --> 00:24:14.715 So the leadership methodology I roll out to my orgs, it's called BCI Behavior, 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.215 individual Process Skill, or you. 00:24:16.784 --> 00:24:20.564 That's how we have to solve those problems for that number one metric. 00:24:20.625 --> 00:24:20.715 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:24:20.985 --> 00:24:23.655 Kevin Dorsey: Because otherwise I can't say bring down churn. 00:24:24.284 --> 00:24:26.835 I have to identify, well, what metric is impacting churn? 00:24:27.105 --> 00:24:28.155 Is it utilization? 00:24:28.159 --> 00:24:29.395 Is it speed to onboard? 00:24:29.395 --> 00:24:31.575 Is it speed to impact? 00:24:31.575 --> 00:24:33.345 Is it MPS score? 00:24:33.465 --> 00:24:34.665 Is it seats utilized? 00:24:34.665 --> 00:24:37.995 Like there's gonna be a number one metric associated to that end result. 00:24:38.745 --> 00:24:41.625 That's what I'm rallying that team around. 00:24:41.625 --> 00:24:44.475 And then we have to identify the behaviors, the individuals to process 00:24:44.475 --> 00:24:49.215 the skills or you as the leader doing the wrong things to impact it, right? 00:24:49.425 --> 00:24:53.145 So like that's what I'm looking for is what is that leadership system now, right? 00:24:53.145 --> 00:24:55.965 So I'm looking for cross-functional, can they rally people around a 00:24:55.969 --> 00:24:57.195 vision and get them to work together? 00:24:58.004 --> 00:25:01.185 I'm looking at their interpretation of data, but more importantly, 00:25:01.485 --> 00:25:02.445 can they change the data? 00:25:03.104 --> 00:25:05.145 It's one thing to know your close rates are too low. 00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:08.700 It's another thing to roll out a plan on how to address it. 00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:13.470 And then similarly, I'm listening for do they talk about other orgs or do they 00:25:13.475 --> 00:25:16.890 only talk about the sales org, right? 00:25:16.890 --> 00:25:16.980 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:19.050 Kevin Dorsey: And then the last one, truthfully, whether this 00:25:19.055 --> 00:25:22.320 is a hard skill or soft skill is like the, the storytelling aspect. 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:24.240 Can they craft a story? 00:25:24.245 --> 00:25:27.480 Can they, they, can they communicate in a way that pulls people? 00:25:28.290 --> 00:25:32.490 In this is where sometimes when you see, you know, CROs that maybe come 00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:37.290 from too much of the data background is they can spit out the data, but 00:25:37.295 --> 00:25:40.320 they can't rally a team around it. 00:25:40.860 --> 00:25:42.810 And so then nothing changes. 00:25:42.810 --> 00:25:44.190 And so I am looking for that. 00:25:44.490 --> 00:25:48.000 I does not mean they have to be an extrovert, that's not what I'm saying. 00:25:48.270 --> 00:25:51.210 They do need to be able to craft a good story to create that 00:25:51.210 --> 00:25:53.040 vision and rally people around it. 00:25:53.045 --> 00:25:54.360 So those are the big ones that I look for. 00:25:54.450 --> 00:25:55.080 Warren Zenna: Yeah, it's great. 00:25:55.230 --> 00:25:55.650 Love it. 00:25:55.770 --> 00:25:56.430 It's great. 00:25:56.430 --> 00:26:01.230 I think it, I love the idea of being that sort of, uh, Forensic scientists 00:26:01.230 --> 00:26:03.270 of asking, okay, what did you discover? 00:26:03.300 --> 00:26:04.230 What did you do about it? 00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:05.340 How did you discover it? 00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:08.220 Those insights are really important, and I think what happens is all too 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:12.570 often I'm seeing with my clients is they're hiring heads of sales that do a 00:26:12.570 --> 00:26:14.340 great job running sales organizations. 00:26:14.730 --> 00:26:16.650 I think this guy's a killer, or this person's a killer. 00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:20.400 Really grow a pipeline, you know, close more deals. 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:21.720 We need someone like that in here. 00:26:22.050 --> 00:26:25.950 They get in there and because they don't have the skills that you just 00:26:25.950 --> 00:26:27.150 mentioned and they're not being. 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:31.050 Managed against those skills, they end up just running sales. 00:26:31.290 --> 00:26:31.470 Kevin Dorsey: Yeah. 00:26:31.530 --> 00:26:34.470 Warren Zenna: And they have this CRO title and, uh, it sort of, 00:26:34.560 --> 00:26:36.420 the organization doesn't benefit. 00:26:36.780 --> 00:26:39.240 From what the CRO could actually do for the organization. 00:26:39.540 --> 00:26:41.010 And they can't figure out why. 00:26:41.310 --> 00:26:42.810 They still can't make sense of things. 00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:45.840 So this kinda leads to another question, which you said something 00:26:45.840 --> 00:26:46.410 at the beginning of this. 00:26:46.410 --> 00:26:48.390 When you mentioned this, you said you don't have marketing yet. 00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:49.410 This is an interesting thing. 00:26:49.830 --> 00:26:55.020 When I'm speaking to most CROs, I talk to the last, let's call it Mile, that most 00:26:55.025 --> 00:26:56.640 CROs is they, they don't get marketing. 00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:58.860 It's like they, it's like the last thing they get is marketing. 00:26:59.760 --> 00:27:00.660 I have two questions for you. 00:27:01.334 --> 00:27:02.504 Why do you think that is? 00:27:02.504 --> 00:27:04.365 Why is it that CROs aren't given marketing? 00:27:04.365 --> 00:27:06.855 Just as like right out of the box, right? 00:27:06.855 --> 00:27:09.135 When you, you and I both understand that's like the whole thing. 00:27:09.645 --> 00:27:11.985 And the second thing is what do they do about it? 00:27:11.985 --> 00:27:15.375 What does a founder do when they create what I call the C-suite traffic 00:27:15.375 --> 00:27:19.245 jam and they've got the c o and the C M O and the same box, it's like, 00:27:19.245 --> 00:27:22.965 okay, I've just created a pretty bad, let's call it leverage problem. 00:27:22.995 --> 00:27:23.774 Keep your language. 00:27:23.774 --> 00:27:24.044 Okay. 00:27:24.375 --> 00:27:25.935 So what are you, what are your thoughts on this one? 00:27:25.935 --> 00:27:28.215 Cause this is a really big problem that CROs are having right now. 00:27:28.590 --> 00:27:31.080 Kevin Dorsey: So to the first part of the question of why I think it happens, 00:27:31.080 --> 00:27:36.120 I think it's a lack of understanding from the c e o role first on how 00:27:36.120 --> 00:27:38.760 they are supposed to work together. 00:27:38.764 --> 00:27:38.960 Warren Zenna: Yeah. 00:27:39.149 --> 00:27:41.490 Kevin Dorsey: In terms of like just their, what they are and 00:27:41.490 --> 00:27:43.889 how aligned they should be. 00:27:44.100 --> 00:27:47.610 It's like one of those things where, you know, it happens in SAS more 00:27:47.639 --> 00:27:51.090 than people realize of how, like the old way has still permeated. 00:27:51.659 --> 00:27:55.050 Like you have a sales leader, you have a marketing leader. 00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:57.179 That's just what we do. 00:27:57.270 --> 00:27:57.479 Right? 00:27:57.479 --> 00:27:58.189 Warren Zenna: That's just what you do. 00:27:58.689 --> 00:27:58.909 Yep. 00:27:58.915 --> 00:28:03.090 Kevin Dorsey: You know, and oh, well, I see CMOs out there, so I 00:28:03.090 --> 00:28:04.949 better go get a CMO and mm-hmm. 00:28:05.040 --> 00:28:08.580 Well now I got A C R O, so We'll, I guess go get. 00:28:09.135 --> 00:28:10.185 That too. 00:28:10.185 --> 00:28:11.145 And now what? 00:28:11.145 --> 00:28:12.524 The traffic jam, is that what you called it? 00:28:12.524 --> 00:28:12.735 Like 00:28:12.825 --> 00:28:13.345 Warren Zenna: Yep, yep. 00:28:13.425 --> 00:28:14.655 The C-suite traffic jam. 00:28:14.655 --> 00:28:15.225 That's what happens. 00:28:15.225 --> 00:28:15.435 Yeah. 00:28:15.524 --> 00:28:18.285 Kevin Dorsey: But now it's like, well, how do you go take that CMO and say 00:28:18.285 --> 00:28:21.115 you'll report to, you know, the CRO 00:28:21.345 --> 00:28:23.115 Warren Zenna: major problem, major problem. 00:28:23.385 --> 00:28:29.745 Kevin Dorsey: But also a big part of it is how few, I'll say sales 00:28:29.745 --> 00:28:33.675 and then, you know, revenue leaders actually understand marketing. 00:28:34.095 --> 00:28:34.545 Warren Zenna: True. 00:28:35.264 --> 00:28:39.750 Kevin Dorsey: So if you don't understand it, You can't lead it. 00:28:40.485 --> 00:28:40.835 Warren Zenna: Right. 00:28:41.054 --> 00:28:42.585 Kevin Dorsey: Doesn't mean you have to be good at it, but you 00:28:42.585 --> 00:28:44.895 at least have to understand it. 00:28:45.225 --> 00:28:49.455 And I was very, very blessed in my early career. 00:28:49.455 --> 00:28:53.325 My first like called big sales leadership job where I built my 00:28:53.325 --> 00:28:55.064 first almost a hundred person org. 00:28:55.455 --> 00:28:59.115 Um, the co-founder of the company was also the CMO, Andy Kinson. 00:28:59.375 --> 00:28:59.595 Yep. 00:28:59.655 --> 00:29:04.425 And he and I worked in lockstep, like, cause I loved marketing. 00:29:04.455 --> 00:29:06.885 Like we, we went to the marketing conferences together. 00:29:06.885 --> 00:29:08.745 Like if I wasn't in sales, I'd be in marketing. 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:15.675 And so I learned so much about marketing, branding, funnels, lead 00:29:15.855 --> 00:29:20.655 conversion, channel optimization, like I learned a lot there, a lot of sales. 00:29:20.655 --> 00:29:23.475 They just never get that because there's already that device. 00:29:23.475 --> 00:29:24.705 They don't understand it enough. 00:29:25.034 --> 00:29:29.955 Where I know I can go to my VP of marketing right now and I can drill 00:29:29.955 --> 00:29:32.805 down into a specific lead channel. 00:29:33.149 --> 00:29:35.879 And say, you know, Facebook leads are converting one 00:29:35.879 --> 00:29:37.649 third as our earned channel. 00:29:37.649 --> 00:29:39.389 I need us to over-optimize here. 00:29:39.389 --> 00:29:39.990 We have to stop. 00:29:40.139 --> 00:29:44.700 Like I can speak marketing doesn't mean I could go do his job, but I sure 00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:48.179 as hell can ask the right questions to ensure the job's getting done. 00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:52.500 And I don't think a lot of sales leaders ever get those conversations. 00:29:53.310 --> 00:29:55.860 And so to, you know, you talk about the different groups listening, 00:29:56.070 --> 00:29:58.210 if you're an aspiring CRO. 00:29:58.679 --> 00:29:58.889 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:29:59.159 --> 00:30:01.439 Kevin Dorsey: Start sitting in on marketing meetings. 00:30:02.504 --> 00:30:06.074 Just invite yourself, Hey, could I join some of your meetings? 00:30:06.074 --> 00:30:07.304 Could I join in? 00:30:07.304 --> 00:30:10.245 And just listen to what they talk about, what they're doing, 00:30:10.245 --> 00:30:11.475 what their struggles are. 00:30:12.074 --> 00:30:13.245 You start to be able to speak it. 00:30:13.514 --> 00:30:14.205 So that's what I see. 00:30:14.235 --> 00:30:17.415 Like CEOs, just that they build their org, they create the traffic jam. 00:30:17.745 --> 00:30:23.804 But truthfully, I don't think a lot of CS or VPs understand marketing enough 00:30:23.865 --> 00:30:25.665 other than where are my leads, Warren? 00:30:26.430 --> 00:30:26.640 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:30:26.820 --> 00:30:28.260 Kevin Dorsey: Where are, where are my leads? 00:30:28.260 --> 00:30:29.970 They're, they're, oh, they don't have budget. 00:30:29.970 --> 00:30:30.450 Warren. 00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:31.890 These leads don't have budget. 00:30:32.475 --> 00:30:32.715 Oh yeah. 00:30:32.745 --> 00:30:35.625 Cuz marketing can just go get people with budget. 00:30:35.804 --> 00:30:36.044 Right. 00:30:36.044 --> 00:30:37.065 Let's make that the ad. 00:30:37.095 --> 00:30:39.254 You have budget for our tool opt in today? 00:30:39.345 --> 00:30:39.524 Warren Zenna: Yep. 00:30:40.274 --> 00:30:41.385 Look, you're a hundred percent right. 00:30:41.385 --> 00:30:45.465 And this is, we're, we're seeing is the reason why we created what we call the 00:30:45.625 --> 00:30:51.975 CRO Readiness Program is the CRO Readiness is the, The readiness that a company 00:30:51.975 --> 00:30:54.254 is for a c o are you ready for one? 00:30:54.254 --> 00:30:56.295 And there's a lot of factors that go into it. 00:30:56.295 --> 00:31:01.305 One, the first one if I were to codify the steps is, do you know what one is? 00:31:02.385 --> 00:31:04.995 So, you know, we speak to a head of, head of, I mean the founder 00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:08.415 or c e o, and you know, I have a very quick little questionnaire and 00:31:08.655 --> 00:31:12.405 it, it, it, it reveals to me very quickly what they think the role is. 00:31:12.410 --> 00:31:12.615 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:31:12.695 --> 00:31:14.575 Warren Zenna: Which would then lead me to understand left 00:31:14.575 --> 00:31:15.975 alone, how they would manage one. 00:31:16.879 --> 00:31:18.770 So if they think that it's their head of sales, then that's, 00:31:18.830 --> 00:31:19.520 that's what they're gonna do. 00:31:19.580 --> 00:31:20.810 That's just how they're gonna manage it. 00:31:20.810 --> 00:31:21.020 Right? 00:31:21.050 --> 00:31:24.379 So the first part is to kind of course correct that and provide a little more 00:31:24.385 --> 00:31:27.470 guidance as to what a CRO does and why this is beneficial to your company. 00:31:27.470 --> 00:31:28.669 Why should you look at it that way? 00:31:28.675 --> 00:31:29.000 Why? 00:31:29.060 --> 00:31:29.720 What's the benefit? 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:31.580 And the second part is okay. 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:33.320 Now you know what one does. 00:31:33.590 --> 00:31:35.330 Is your company ready for one yet? 00:31:35.510 --> 00:31:39.140 And what that mean is, is that what happens usually is you bring on a chief 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:42.170 revenue officer or even with the knowledge of what they're supposed to do, but 00:31:42.170 --> 00:31:45.530 to you and I earlier conversation, if I don't have the proper data analysis 00:31:45.535 --> 00:31:49.640 of what's working or not, And I have the c r o like off running off on 00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:50.990 a task to try and figure that out. 00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:53.150 They're probably not going to, cuz they're not gonna have enough 00:31:53.270 --> 00:31:54.710 like runway to get that finished. 00:31:54.710 --> 00:31:55.850 That's a pretty big job. 00:31:56.450 --> 00:31:58.910 They're probably gonna be tasked with trying to get some other r 00:31:58.910 --> 00:32:00.290 o ROI on that hire pretty soon. 00:32:00.290 --> 00:32:00.380 Mm-hmm. 00:32:00.620 --> 00:32:03.860 So we do that, but the point of making is the key part of it. 00:32:03.865 --> 00:32:04.341 The first part. 00:32:05.255 --> 00:32:09.515 Is making sure the CEO O knows exactly what the utilization of this role is and 00:32:09.515 --> 00:32:12.845 the benefit of the company and why they need to position this person properly. 00:32:12.845 --> 00:32:16.955 Now, most of the time when we hire, we get someone to hire a c o, and and you 00:32:16.955 --> 00:32:21.245 probably know this too, for some reason, they seem to always promote their heads 00:32:21.245 --> 00:32:22.985 of marketing to CMOs really early. 00:32:22.985 --> 00:32:27.125 So they've already got a CMO in place and now they gotta deal with that traffic jam. 00:32:27.275 --> 00:32:31.505 And that's not an easy one because now you're sort of usurping someone who's. 00:32:31.925 --> 00:32:34.145 Achieved a C-Suite title, and now they have to deal with 00:32:34.145 --> 00:32:35.885 this weird sort of other thing. 00:32:36.125 --> 00:32:38.105 And that's what makes the CRO role so challenging. 00:32:38.645 --> 00:32:41.735 So in your case, right, so you said you just brought on your own head of 00:32:41.735 --> 00:32:44.615 marketing, so this is someone that you know and you've got a relationship with. 00:32:45.275 --> 00:32:46.475 What, what would you suggest? 00:32:46.475 --> 00:32:49.205 If I'm a C R O and I'm in a situation where I've been put into the job. 00:32:50.060 --> 00:32:53.420 I've been told that the company is aware of the fact that the c o is a revenue 00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:58.640 leader, but there's a C M O what might be sort of a way to navigate that so that it 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:03.290 can result in what you and I are talking about without being too disruptive. 00:33:03.295 --> 00:33:03.380 Kevin Dorsey: Mm-hmm. 00:33:03.625 --> 00:33:04.700 Warren Zenna: You know, because this is a common thing. 00:33:04.705 --> 00:33:06.170 This happens a lot with, like my clients. 00:33:06.170 --> 00:33:08.380 Kevin Dorsey: Well, it depends on what the, the end goal is, right? 00:33:08.840 --> 00:33:12.980 If the end goal is just to have a great relationship with marketing 00:33:13.280 --> 00:33:14.600 that leads to higher sales. 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.870 The CMO doesn't have to report to you 00:33:17.870 --> 00:33:18.140 Warren Zenna: Sure. 00:33:18.350 --> 00:33:20.000 Kevin Dorsey: To do that, right? 00:33:20.390 --> 00:33:24.770 So like, I would still encourage like to like build that relationship, 00:33:24.770 --> 00:33:28.340 learn what they're focused on, but share and share insights. 00:33:28.580 --> 00:33:29.840 None of this bs. 00:33:30.050 --> 00:33:32.060 Hey, marketing, the leads aren't good. 00:33:32.090 --> 00:33:33.460 That doesn't help anybody. 00:33:34.235 --> 00:33:34.504 Right. 00:33:34.745 --> 00:33:36.034 You have to understand why are they not good? 00:33:36.034 --> 00:33:37.235 Like, why are they not good? 00:33:37.264 --> 00:33:39.395 What's wrong with them, right? 00:33:39.395 --> 00:33:41.315 Like, where are they coming from? 00:33:41.315 --> 00:33:43.804 Like, so share insights with them of like what you can do, 00:33:43.804 --> 00:33:45.095 but also not just on the leads. 00:33:45.155 --> 00:33:48.665 Leverage marketing in your mid-funnel, the bottom of the 00:33:48.665 --> 00:33:50.735 funnel, the kickoff calls, right? 00:33:50.735 --> 00:33:53.335 Like there's all sorts of places to leverage marketing. 00:33:53.395 --> 00:33:56.044 So like that's just build a stronger relationship. 00:33:56.885 --> 00:34:00.935 If it is trying to understand the dynamic of like, basically how do I 00:34:01.295 --> 00:34:06.335 get the CMO to either report to me or understand the, the hierarchy? 00:34:06.335 --> 00:34:06.425 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:34:06.665 --> 00:34:10.085 Kevin Dorsey: So to speak, one that actually starts, just like any 00:34:10.090 --> 00:34:13.274 sales process, you have to start with the decision maker in this. 00:34:14.045 --> 00:34:16.835 You need to actually be working on the CEO first. 00:34:17.524 --> 00:34:21.904 That they see your point of view in this as well. 00:34:22.114 --> 00:34:26.194 That until marketing is rolling to this revenue org, there will 00:34:26.194 --> 00:34:29.465 always be a budding of heads, right? 00:34:29.585 --> 00:34:31.685 Or that the comp plans need to change. 00:34:31.685 --> 00:34:33.125 The bonus plans need to change. 00:34:33.274 --> 00:34:36.125 One of the reasons why I love working with Jar, he's one of the few marketing leaders 00:34:36.125 --> 00:34:41.375 I've worked with where he's like, Almost over optimizes to revenue, funny enough. 00:34:41.404 --> 00:34:42.005 Warren Zenna: Mm-hmm. 00:34:42.274 --> 00:34:43.774 Kevin Dorsey: Where like, he'd be like, Hey, like, yeah, we're, 00:34:43.774 --> 00:34:45.965 we're behind on our lead count, but we're pacing the revenue. 00:34:45.970 --> 00:34:46.805 I'm like, yeah. 00:34:46.864 --> 00:34:47.135 Yep. 00:34:47.194 --> 00:34:49.745 I love that, but I still need those leads. 00:34:49.864 --> 00:34:50.375 Mm-hmm. 00:34:50.614 --> 00:34:51.875 I still need tho those leads. 00:34:51.875 --> 00:34:54.034 That means we're overperforming in conversion. 00:34:54.040 --> 00:34:54.125 Yeah. 00:34:54.335 --> 00:34:55.295 In different places. 00:34:55.295 --> 00:34:58.955 I still need that, but he thinks revenue first and works. 00:34:59.660 --> 00:34:59.990 Back. 00:34:59.990 --> 00:35:00.170 Got it. 00:35:00.210 --> 00:35:00.559 Right. 00:35:00.779 --> 00:35:01.000 Yep. 00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:01.240 Mm-hmm. 00:35:01.319 --> 00:35:03.170 That it's having those conversations. 00:35:03.170 --> 00:35:07.819 But again, to the earlier point we're making, you have to be able to communicate 00:35:07.819 --> 00:35:10.130 it to marketing, in marketing speak. 00:35:10.670 --> 00:35:10.910 Yep. 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:13.880 What is that conversion rate by channel? 00:35:14.450 --> 00:35:19.319 What is the conversion rate on blog versus earned versus direct versus paid 00:35:19.319 --> 00:35:21.889 versus social versus influenced, right. 00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:26.149 Like speak to them in that matter and say, Hey, we closed these ones 00:35:26.149 --> 00:35:27.559 great, but we're struggling here. 00:35:28.370 --> 00:35:28.490 Yep. 00:35:28.550 --> 00:35:30.590 They're probably earlier on that Buyer'ss journey. 00:35:30.590 --> 00:35:33.440 So you need a different type of sales process for those. 00:35:33.470 --> 00:35:33.800 Right. 00:35:33.890 --> 00:35:38.360 My pitch for the Facebook ads are very different than my pitch for someone 00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.660 who Googled my company or Googled. 00:35:41.870 --> 00:35:42.200 Right. 00:35:42.200 --> 00:35:43.850 Like the problem that we have. 00:35:44.060 --> 00:35:46.341 So that, I don't know if that answered the question or not, but 00:35:46.346 --> 00:35:49.610 it's like still build the relationship where they wouldn't feel like. 00:35:50.495 --> 00:35:51.814 Slighted by this. 00:35:52.085 --> 00:35:55.385 Like, I, I truly believe if, if Jared got the call tomorrow and said, Hey, 00:35:55.385 --> 00:35:56.885 you're not rolling to the c e O anymore. 00:35:56.885 --> 00:35:57.845 You're rolling to kd. 00:35:57.845 --> 00:35:59.274 Be like, yeah, like. 00:36:00.380 --> 00:36:02.720 We talk about this stuff all the time, doesn't, doesn't even matter. 00:36:02.990 --> 00:36:03.109 Yep. 00:36:03.109 --> 00:36:04.250 We already have that relationship. 00:36:04.250 --> 00:36:04.310 You 00:36:04.315 --> 00:36:06.680 Warren Zenna: got the right culture and the right relationship already for that. 00:36:06.685 --> 00:36:06.720 Yeah. 00:36:07.130 --> 00:36:08.930 Kevin Dorsey: If not, you have to build the relationship. 00:36:08.930 --> 00:36:11.660 You have to build the culture, but you actually, you have to get the decision 00:36:11.660 --> 00:36:15.560 maker on your side, which would be exactly the CEO and why it will help 00:36:15.560 --> 00:36:17.810 the overall revenue of the company. 00:36:17.930 --> 00:36:18.109 Yep. 00:36:18.140 --> 00:36:19.011 Warren Zenna: Th that's exactly right. 00:36:19.250 --> 00:36:22.160 And I agree with you, and that's why we do the C readiness program. 00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:24.200 It's really, frankly, it's targeting the c e O. 00:36:24.205 --> 00:36:24.520 Mm-hmm. 00:36:24.600 --> 00:36:26.930 Because the CEO ultimately is gonna make the decisions around how 00:36:26.930 --> 00:36:28.010 these things are gonna get managed. 00:36:28.010 --> 00:36:28.160 Right. 00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:30.315 They're like, let's call it, For all I intents and purposes, 00:36:30.315 --> 00:36:31.425 they're the adult in the room. 00:36:31.425 --> 00:36:33.675 They're gonna manage the way the kids are arguing with each other and they're 00:36:33.675 --> 00:36:35.235 gonna make the big decisions about things. 00:36:35.535 --> 00:36:37.755 Then they have to set the vision for why we're doing this. 00:36:37.755 --> 00:36:39.465 Like why are we laddering up to this right now? 00:36:39.465 --> 00:36:40.785 Why is this disruption happening? 00:36:40.785 --> 00:36:41.925 Why is this better for the business? 00:36:41.930 --> 00:36:42.165 Right? 00:36:42.675 --> 00:36:43.935 And I think those are the important things. 00:36:43.935 --> 00:36:46.875 And I think we're seeing a lot of younger founders, or maybe even 00:36:46.875 --> 00:36:50.295 like product led founders don't have the commercial capabilities 00:36:50.295 --> 00:36:51.495 to talk about things that way. 00:36:51.675 --> 00:36:55.035 And so they're kind of undermined by their own focus on maybe product 00:36:55.040 --> 00:36:57.285 development or renovations or engineering. 00:36:58.010 --> 00:37:00.890 And that's a big problem when you're getting with product led organizations 00:37:01.310 --> 00:37:04.279 who are sort of like struggling with figuring out how to make a 00:37:04.340 --> 00:37:06.470 successful commercial op operation. 00:37:06.890 --> 00:37:09.470 Whereas if you have someone in there who's more of a salesperson who 00:37:09.470 --> 00:37:12.529 built a company, they more likely inherently understand these sort of 00:37:12.535 --> 00:37:12.800 Kevin Dorsey: things. 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:17.000 Yeah, and I wanna touch on that real quick and again, back to the earlier 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:23.540 points you made y'all, that is also the Cro O's job is to properly manage up. 00:37:24.725 --> 00:37:30.215 You need to help teach your c e O what this actually means and how this 00:37:30.215 --> 00:37:33.950 actually works because especially depending on the stage, They may 00:37:33.950 --> 00:37:36.020 have never had a cro r o before. 00:37:36.024 --> 00:37:36.180 Yep. 00:37:36.529 --> 00:37:39.590 In fact, at the end of the day, the c r o role, you, you'll 00:37:39.590 --> 00:37:40.310 know this better than me. 00:37:40.310 --> 00:37:40.550 How 00:37:40.550 --> 00:37:41.510 Warren Zenna: new is this? 00:37:41.510 --> 00:37:42.560 10, 15 years? 00:37:42.560 --> 00:37:44.930 Maybe the most, I think the first one was in 2000 and, 00:37:44.990 --> 00:37:46.640 uh, 14 or something like that. 00:37:46.640 --> 00:37:47.630 2010. 00:37:47.635 --> 00:37:47.740 Right. 00:37:48.080 --> 00:37:48.950 Was like the mention of it. 00:37:48.950 --> 00:37:52.100 It was in Silicon Valley and they were heads of sales and they came in 00:37:52.100 --> 00:37:54.410 and they mostly had big Rolodexes. 00:37:54.410 --> 00:37:54.500 Mm-hmm. 00:37:54.740 --> 00:37:58.444 And they closed big deals, you know, so it's sort of, Did save the day. 00:37:58.475 --> 00:38:02.615 It brought commercial expertise to technical founders who didn't understand 00:38:02.615 --> 00:38:05.825 how to run businesses in Silicon Valley, and they were brought in to kind of 00:38:05.825 --> 00:38:08.825 actually commercialize a business and make it, make it a big thing, you know? 00:38:08.885 --> 00:38:10.115 That's basically how it started. 00:38:10.265 --> 00:38:11.225 So now we're talking about a 00:38:11.225 --> 00:38:12.095 Kevin Dorsey: role. 00:38:12.439 --> 00:38:14.960 There's only a decade old anyway. 00:38:15.080 --> 00:38:15.380 Yep. 00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:20.899 That has changed significantly hu huge over the last five years. 00:38:20.904 --> 00:38:21.040 Mm-hmm. 00:38:21.410 --> 00:38:26.090 And so most CEOs haven't even, even had one, let alone had one in like the new, 00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:27.960 call it selling and revenue environment. 00:38:28.569 --> 00:38:34.630 Managing up is so important and just as important in a C R O role as 00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:36.130 like getting all your orgs together. 00:38:36.130 --> 00:38:41.350 Is, are you, are you helping your c e o understand how a revenue org should look? 00:38:41.354 --> 00:38:42.399 That's why they hired you. 00:38:43.085 --> 00:38:45.845 And also part of your vetting process if you're being interviewed 00:38:46.115 --> 00:38:47.915 for the c r o, best Believe. 00:38:47.915 --> 00:38:51.575 Those are the questions I was asking coming in around what, what, 00:38:51.785 --> 00:38:55.445 luckily for me, I knew the, the c E O at my new company as well. 00:38:55.445 --> 00:38:59.735 So it was kind of like he, he knows, he knows, I know he gets it. 00:38:59.740 --> 00:39:01.446 He is like, Katie, go, go do what you do. 00:39:01.735 --> 00:39:02.085 Right? 00:39:02.645 --> 00:39:04.535 Like, Go do what you do. 00:39:04.535 --> 00:39:05.825 I'm like, thanks jp. 00:39:06.064 --> 00:39:06.545 That's what I'm gonna 00:39:06.545 --> 00:39:06.814 Warren Zenna: go do. 00:39:06.819 --> 00:39:07.564 Good, good. 00:39:07.564 --> 00:39:08.885 You got that sort of relationship. 00:39:08.885 --> 00:39:10.205 I mean, the, I, I do. 00:39:10.205 --> 00:39:14.975 In fact, I have a, I'm building right now a second course on interviewing for the 00:39:14.979 --> 00:39:17.165 c o role because it's a critical thing. 00:39:17.434 --> 00:39:19.774 What ends up happening is I look at it like a bad marriage. 00:39:19.805 --> 00:39:21.005 You know, if you take the job. 00:39:22.205 --> 00:39:23.375 That's not the right job. 00:39:23.854 --> 00:39:26.285 You just can end up in the wrong job and it's hard to fix 00:39:26.285 --> 00:39:27.394 the job when you're in the job. 00:39:27.394 --> 00:39:29.165 You have to actually get the right job to start. 00:39:29.194 --> 00:39:30.154 It's, it's really hard to do. 00:39:30.154 --> 00:39:30.785 It doesn't usually work. 00:39:30.785 --> 00:39:30.845 Say 00:39:30.845 --> 00:39:31.234 Kevin Dorsey: that again. 00:39:31.240 --> 00:39:34.234 It is hard to fix the job when you're in the job, y'all. 00:39:34.234 --> 00:39:35.675 That is the absolute 00:39:35.675 --> 00:39:36.064 Warren Zenna: truth. 00:39:36.455 --> 00:39:36.725 Yep. 00:39:36.785 --> 00:39:40.505 So the idea behind this is to make the job the right job or. 00:39:41.245 --> 00:39:43.165 Don't take the job if it's the wrong job. 00:39:43.165 --> 00:39:43.255 Mm-hmm. 00:39:43.524 --> 00:39:43.974 And that's not hard. 00:39:43.974 --> 00:39:44.505 That's hard to do. 00:39:44.585 --> 00:39:47.305 I mean, if I'm getting vetted for a Chief Revenue officer role, and I could 00:39:47.305 --> 00:39:50.005 be making at least a half a million bucks outta the gate, you know, it's 00:39:50.005 --> 00:39:51.595 very tempting to just say yes to it. 00:39:51.595 --> 00:39:54.925 And I'm trying to tell my clients that that temptation is the danger, 00:39:54.925 --> 00:39:58.585 because you just say yes to something with the idea to I'll work it out. 00:39:58.585 --> 00:39:59.265 No, you won't work it out. 00:39:59.265 --> 00:40:02.095 This is not the kind of job that you can just sort of fix, you know? 00:40:02.255 --> 00:40:02.545 Yeah. 00:40:02.755 --> 00:40:04.675 And so you have to know what you're getting yourself into. 00:40:04.675 --> 00:40:07.345 And to your point, you have to first have the right questions and the 00:40:07.345 --> 00:40:08.545 right way to get the right agreements. 00:40:08.545 --> 00:40:09.595 And the four things I, I. 00:40:10.240 --> 00:40:14.410 Tell my clients they need is they need authority, autonomy, runway, 00:40:14.410 --> 00:40:15.880 and resources to do the job. 00:40:16.270 --> 00:40:16.360 Mm-hmm. 00:40:17.050 --> 00:40:19.600 And so that means that you need to, you have to interview your C E O. 00:40:20.315 --> 00:40:21.515 You have to interview the ceo. 00:40:21.845 --> 00:40:23.795 They're not interviewing you, you're actually interviewing them. 00:40:23.855 --> 00:40:24.505 And so, mm-hmm. 00:40:24.785 --> 00:40:27.755 You know, this is sort of a different paradigm for this particular job. 00:40:27.815 --> 00:40:30.065 And you're right, you do need to understand marketing. 00:40:30.065 --> 00:40:33.305 You have to come in with a love for marketing and a respect for marketing. 00:40:33.305 --> 00:40:33.306 Mm-hmm. 00:40:33.311 --> 00:40:34.145 And what it does. 00:40:34.565 --> 00:40:37.025 And you have to be a customer-centric person really. 00:40:37.435 --> 00:40:38.755 Talk to customers. 00:40:38.965 --> 00:40:39.715 What are they like? 00:40:39.745 --> 00:40:42.055 Why did they buy, why did they not renew? 00:40:42.085 --> 00:40:45.025 All the stuff that's critical for a chief revenue officer to know. 00:40:45.025 --> 00:40:47.785 And if you're not in those things, if you're biasing yourself in 00:40:47.790 --> 00:40:50.545 the sales organization, you're not gonna get the whole picture. 00:40:50.635 --> 00:40:53.815 You're not, you're gonna be sort of relegated to becoming a sales leader. 00:40:53.819 --> 00:40:58.260 So anyway, I, I wanna make sure we kind of touch on some things that are going 00:40:58.260 --> 00:40:59.790 on with you before we, we close out. 00:40:59.790 --> 00:41:01.229 Cause this has been an amazing conversation. 00:41:01.229 --> 00:41:03.660 So you mentioned the beginning of our conversation, some things you're up to. 00:41:04.019 --> 00:41:06.779 I'd love to have the opportunity to tell listeners what's going on. 00:41:06.809 --> 00:41:07.439 Yeah, no, I mean, 00:41:07.439 --> 00:41:09.000 Kevin Dorsey: aligned with, it sounds like some of the stuff that 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:10.439 you're, you're working on as well. 00:41:10.444 --> 00:41:13.380 So like what's, like I get asked some of these questions like, you 00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:17.040 know, like why is it the way that it is with a lot of CROs and Yeah. 00:41:17.490 --> 00:41:20.850 Bottom of it to me is we're never taught how. 00:41:22.279 --> 00:41:24.800 It's actually comical if you think about it. 00:41:25.520 --> 00:41:25.730 Yep. 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:27.890 Most sales reps are never taught. 00:41:28.430 --> 00:41:28.910 That's right. 00:41:29.029 --> 00:41:32.480 Who become managers who are never taught. 00:41:33.035 --> 00:41:33.215 Yep. 00:41:33.545 --> 00:41:37.595 Who become directors who were never taught you. 00:41:38.045 --> 00:41:42.545 Warren, did you sit through, you know, you know, l t V to C 3 47 in college? 00:41:42.935 --> 00:41:43.595 Of course not. 00:41:43.715 --> 00:41:46.535 What about like working with marketing two 12, 00:41:46.685 --> 00:41:47.165 Warren Zenna: like, Nope. 00:41:47.345 --> 00:41:48.575 All on the job training. 00:41:48.725 --> 00:41:50.255 Like all on the job training. 00:41:50.450 --> 00:41:50.990 It's, and 00:41:50.990 --> 00:41:53.149 Kevin Dorsey: training is also a strong 00:41:53.149 --> 00:41:53.600 Warren Zenna: word. 00:41:53.600 --> 00:41:53.930 It is true. 00:41:53.935 --> 00:41:57.229 Whether it's training, it was all on the job. 00:41:57.260 --> 00:42:00.620 I guess it's not trading, it was more like, you know, on the job experience. 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:02.450 I was say like punching bags, right? 00:42:02.450 --> 00:42:05.420 Like you just, you just, and hand combat, hand hand combat. 00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:07.519 I learned how to fight by getting punched, basically. 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:07.760 Yeah. 00:42:07.939 --> 00:42:08.529 Like think, think 00:42:08.529 --> 00:42:12.470 Kevin Dorsey: about like at a high level, how ridiculous that is. 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:13.279 I agree. 00:42:13.490 --> 00:42:16.550 You have individuals who are responsible for generating 00:42:16.550 --> 00:42:18.890 hundreds of millions of dollars. 00:42:20.240 --> 00:42:26.029 And their only training is basically either getting things wrong long enough 00:42:26.029 --> 00:42:28.160 and surviving to figure out what's right. 00:42:28.715 --> 00:42:29.045 Yep. 00:42:29.194 --> 00:42:33.694 Or even worse, they've been doing it wrong and they don't even know because 00:42:33.694 --> 00:42:36.995 they were blessed with a timing or opportunity of a certain company 00:42:36.995 --> 00:42:38.615 that they think their way works. 00:42:38.615 --> 00:42:39.154 Exactly. 00:42:39.245 --> 00:42:43.115 So like, I'm trying to change that from like the, the bottom of like, can we 00:42:43.115 --> 00:42:45.725 help educate, can we help teach them? 00:42:45.965 --> 00:42:49.595 So like I'm launching something called the Sales Leadership Accelerator, which 00:42:49.595 --> 00:42:54.274 is more so designed for like that manager to director level of like truthfully. 00:42:54.274 --> 00:42:56.194 Cause that's also where a lot of it goes to die. 00:42:56.885 --> 00:43:00.365 Have the best ideas in the world as a C but if your managers aren't 00:43:00.365 --> 00:43:02.255 strong, it doesn't matter, right? 00:43:02.255 --> 00:43:05.855 Like that's how I view my role as like my role is to develop my leaders. 00:43:06.245 --> 00:43:07.925 Their role is to develop their leaders. 00:43:07.955 --> 00:43:10.685 Their role is to develop the, the individuals on their team. 00:43:10.925 --> 00:43:13.855 So I'm building a program called the Sales Leadership Accelerator. 00:43:14.105 --> 00:43:17.645 It's like 20 some hours of of content training. 00:43:17.645 --> 00:43:19.565 All of my templates, all of my blueprints. 00:43:19.565 --> 00:43:23.585 You know, cuz something that I am proud of in my career is I've built three. 00:43:24.755 --> 00:43:28.175 I mean, now I'm on my fourth highly successful like revenue 00:43:28.774 --> 00:43:30.755 orgs in different industries. 00:43:31.535 --> 00:43:35.450 There's been no overlap in the industry, so I know these processes 00:43:35.450 --> 00:43:40.460 work when building an org and developing managers and developing directors. 00:43:40.460 --> 00:43:43.970 So sales leadership accelerator is something that I'm working on. 00:43:43.970 --> 00:43:47.359 And then obviously taking bench to, to new heights, you know? 00:43:47.365 --> 00:43:47.450 Yep. 00:43:47.450 --> 00:43:49.941 Like I've got, I've got the, the five orgs under me now. 00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:53.899 I've got, you know, one to two to go and I, I got the whole squad 00:43:53.930 --> 00:43:54.620 and you know, we can get out. 00:43:54.620 --> 00:43:54.950 That's awesome. 00:43:55.535 --> 00:43:55.895 Warren Zenna: That's great. 00:43:55.895 --> 00:43:57.635 Yeah, we are very similar missions. 00:43:57.694 --> 00:43:59.255 Uh, I agree with you. 00:43:59.255 --> 00:44:02.915 The reason I started the CIO collective is cuz no one's training CROs, 00:44:02.915 --> 00:44:04.444 which is preposterous and so mm-hmm. 00:44:04.685 --> 00:44:05.645 You know, we're doing that. 00:44:05.705 --> 00:44:07.415 We have a really great program for it. 00:44:07.415 --> 00:44:10.745 And then also to your point, training CEOs what a commercial 00:44:10.745 --> 00:44:12.154 organization should be run like. 00:44:12.180 --> 00:44:15.480 Under the guise have achieved revenue officers to help them close those gaps. 00:44:15.899 --> 00:44:15.990 Mm-hmm. 00:44:16.230 --> 00:44:19.410 And you know, I was talking about this before with a, a person on the phone 00:44:19.410 --> 00:44:22.590 before we were talking today, and that is companies that are between, 00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:25.890 let's say, 10 and 50 million in revenues are a lot like teenagers. 00:44:25.890 --> 00:44:28.319 You know, they're not at fault for what they're doing. 00:44:28.325 --> 00:44:29.670 That's just what teenagers do. 00:44:29.700 --> 00:44:31.140 That's the, that's the stage they're at. 00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:34.830 And so you, you have to understand that it's not like they're flawed. 00:44:34.859 --> 00:44:35.220 It's. 00:44:35.540 --> 00:44:38.990 That's what young organizations, how they operate. 00:44:39.260 --> 00:44:39.410 Mm-hmm. 00:44:39.649 --> 00:44:43.399 And so if I, if I, I have teenager, I one teenager one has already grown. 00:44:43.399 --> 00:44:46.250 But at that stage, what you do is you hope that the mistakes that 00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:49.729 the teenager makes aren't ones that they're gonna have to pay consequences 00:44:49.729 --> 00:44:50.899 for, for the rest of their lives. 00:44:50.899 --> 00:44:52.220 They're gonna make ones that they can fix. 00:44:52.670 --> 00:44:57.229 So similarly, I go to an or a younger organizations, I understand 00:44:57.229 --> 00:44:59.330 that this is why you do things when you're at this stage. 00:44:59.330 --> 00:44:59.899 I get it. 00:45:00.020 --> 00:45:04.340 But if we can provide you some education that may accelerate. 00:45:05.180 --> 00:45:10.730 Your growth, you won't be 30 and regret the 10 years you wasted. 00:45:11.149 --> 00:45:13.640 You'll be at 22 and be ahead of the game. 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:14.750 And that's what we wanna do. 00:45:14.750 --> 00:45:14.840 Mm-hmm. 00:45:15.229 --> 00:45:18.710 Is understand where you're at, not judge where you're at, but give you tools 00:45:18.710 --> 00:45:20.180 to accelerate where you want to go. 00:45:20.510 --> 00:45:23.149 And we do it through building smart revenue operations focused 00:45:23.149 --> 00:45:24.080 on the Chief Revenue Officer. 00:45:24.080 --> 00:45:26.930 So you and I are really kind of solving very similar problems. 00:45:27.529 --> 00:45:30.350 Um, but, uh, is there anything else you'd like to share before we sign off? 00:45:30.649 --> 00:45:31.670 Um, no, I 00:45:31.670 --> 00:45:33.170 Kevin Dorsey: think, I think we, we nailed it. 00:45:33.170 --> 00:45:34.100 I, I really do. 00:45:34.100 --> 00:45:38.930 I just think sales leaders, you actually, this one you need development too. 00:45:40.205 --> 00:45:40.835 You need it? 00:45:41.045 --> 00:45:47.404 Like, invest in something, invest in a program, get mentorship, drop the, the 00:45:47.404 --> 00:45:51.154 ego nonsense, like you need it as well. 00:45:51.154 --> 00:45:52.265 Learn from people. 00:45:52.325 --> 00:45:52.925 Here's what I end with. 00:45:52.955 --> 00:45:55.295 I had a mentor tell me this early on. 00:45:55.654 --> 00:46:00.694 Um, he said, experience is actually the slowest way to learn a skill. 00:46:01.234 --> 00:46:01.444 Hmm. 00:46:02.915 --> 00:46:05.975 Why take 10 years to get good at something? 00:46:06.005 --> 00:46:09.635 If you can learn from someone who's been good at it for 10 years. 00:46:11.135 --> 00:46:12.995 You can learn a lesson through experience. 00:46:12.995 --> 00:46:14.105 I touch a hot pan. 00:46:14.165 --> 00:46:15.154 I know not to touch that. 00:46:15.154 --> 00:46:21.305 Again, you can learn a lesson, but skill experience is the slowest way to learn. 00:46:21.305 --> 00:46:21.365 Yeah. 00:46:21.605 --> 00:46:25.625 Surround yourself with people that have the skills that you want. 00:46:25.955 --> 00:46:29.125 It, it's the greatest hack possible to your Yeah. 00:46:29.375 --> 00:46:34.955 Warren Zenna: It's a, it's a, i I refer to this as, um, modern day time travel. 00:46:35.735 --> 00:46:36.035 Mm. 00:46:36.365 --> 00:46:36.755 I like that. 00:46:36.755 --> 00:46:39.575 And the reason it's time travel is. 00:46:40.100 --> 00:46:41.540 I'm 58. 00:46:41.930 --> 00:46:42.229 Okay? 00:46:43.040 --> 00:46:47.569 Which means that if I talk to someone who's 25, I'm a time traveler. 00:46:47.569 --> 00:46:50.600 I'm going back in time and I'm saying, I saw your future. 00:46:50.689 --> 00:46:51.649 I've already been there. 00:46:51.649 --> 00:46:53.960 I'm coming back to tell you what you to expect. 00:46:54.200 --> 00:46:55.611 So here's five things not to do. 00:46:56.385 --> 00:46:59.184 Or else you could get to 58 and make the same mistakes I made. 00:46:59.184 --> 00:46:59.585 Mm-hmm. 00:46:59.764 --> 00:47:02.104 So why wouldn't you want to take the advice of a time traveler? 00:47:02.135 --> 00:47:03.665 I can save so much time. 00:47:03.724 --> 00:47:04.055 Right. 00:47:04.564 --> 00:47:07.505 So this is, we do actually have the ability to have time travel. 00:47:07.535 --> 00:47:10.175 You just gotta meet people who have been there already and learn 00:47:10.175 --> 00:47:11.585 from 'em and you can save time. 00:47:11.615 --> 00:47:11.854 Right. 00:47:11.859 --> 00:47:13.115 So I agree, man. 00:47:13.115 --> 00:47:16.865 This is, this is, this is the way we can manage time, uh, and kind of 00:47:16.865 --> 00:47:20.854 break the bind the binds of what you say is the slowness of experience. 00:47:20.854 --> 00:47:21.335 It's great. 00:47:21.335 --> 00:47:21.934 Great analogy. 00:47:21.934 --> 00:47:22.354 I love that. 00:47:23.435 --> 00:47:24.335 Katie, thank you man. 00:47:24.335 --> 00:47:25.085 This is so great. 00:47:25.145 --> 00:47:27.515 I know that the audience is gonna get so much out of this. 00:47:27.575 --> 00:47:31.175 Uh, really appreciate your time and, uh, excited to see more what you're 00:47:31.175 --> 00:47:32.705 up to and let's just keep talking. 00:47:32.765 --> 00:47:33.575 I really appreciate it. 00:47:33.580 --> 00:47:34.235 Sounds good, my friend. 00:47:34.235 --> 00:47:35.075 Kevin Dorsey: Appreciate you having me.