FAITH: I was in a conversation with a group of people and on the surface, I understood the point of what one of them said, but as he was describing it, it felt like the meaning had changed and I tell you, I could feel myself like getting really worked up.
MELODY: So, so initially you started agreeing with him but then you started deciding that you didn't?
FAITH: Yeah, I think I, I agreed with the principle but the interpretation didn't sit right with me.
MELODY: Okay, so you still agreed but then you didn't, okay, you need to tell me more but before that, let me introduce the podcast. Welcome to Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast where Faith and I, Melody, chat about our thoughts, our experiences and our struggles with living in the grey, figuring out whether there's even a right or wrong in how we live. Okay, tell me more about this principle and interpretation and [laughs].
FAITH: Well, this person was trying to explain that sometimes despite our best efforts, meaning that after all the work we've put in building a relationship, showing care, offering support, when we try to show up for someone, right, when we try to help them, that help can still be rejected and we can find comfort by telling ourselves that that's on them, not us.
MELODY: Well, I agree with him, I agree with the principle.
FAITH: Exactly, so one angle we get what he's trying to say, right?
MELODY: Well, it comes back to what we said the last episode, right, like it's not, it's not me, it's you, so it's on you to accept the help or not, right?
FAITH: Right, and we can do our best and be kind and intentional and communication is always a two-way street, right, so that's us and them and we can't control them, right, but there's something about that framing that still didn't sit right with me because I started thinking about all the times when I was on the receiving end of care that somehow morphed into a burden and as I sat with it longer, I noticed a pattern and I think I'm going to, I coined this phrase, all right, it's what I like to think of as presumptuous care.

MELODY: Okay, I think you need to explain a bit more how the care becomes a burden.
FAITH: Right, and why it's presumptuous and all that, right? Okay, so basically presumptuous care is when we assume because I have a connection with you and because my help comes from a place of care, I know better than you what you need and if you don't like it, that's on you, not me. But that kind of presumption raises some questions, right?
MELODY: Well, yes, because that's being very rude.
FAITH: Wow that’s putting it bluntly.
MELODY: That's me.Yes, that is being very rude but is that, well, I guess maybe the question is, is that what they say to you? Like, is it, well, I've helped you but you're not taking this help, is that what it's literally said? So, you are, you are, you know, you're stupid, you are not as good, you are, etc, etc.
FAITH: Well, I don't think anyone really comes out and exactly says you are stupid, you're not as good but there are signals and, you know, like how when there are signals that will show that someone is indicating that they feel like you are just, you know, like they're trying to help and if only you would just take their help, right?
MELODY: Yeah, I know what you mean.
We've all been in that kind of position where it's like, you know, we're here, we have this kind of resources and we can help you but why can't you just take our help or why can't you just do better, you know? Like, yeah, like, here's the advice, why aren't you taking it? You know, it's so simple, it's so easy, it's so obvious, why aren't you doing it?
MELODY: That's not even fair, that's just being rude.
FAITH: Because here's the thing, right? Even if there is a connection, that connection doesn't automatically mean that the help is welcome or even helpful or even needed, right? Because real care also has an element of consent, curiosity, not just relationship history because I think the burden comes when, part of the burden comes when there's this assumption that because we've had this relationship, it means that now I get to say whatever I want but if you don't feel good about it, that's on you to figure it out, not on me.

MELODY” Yeah, I know, like, yes, I definitely agree with you, right? Like, I definitely agree with you because I have been at the receiving end of it and it's just like, you know, well, but you don't understand my context, you don't understand my situation, you really don't understand what is it that I'm going through and so I'm not able to take the advice, it's not that clear-cut, like, it's not like I can do X because you can see that I can do X but there are other reasons why I cannot do it.

FAITH: Exactly, which is why there's the curiosity element that feels like it's missing, right? Because when we have that kind of, when we bring that kind of presumption into the care that we are trying to give, that means, the presumption means we're not stopping, we're not giving ourselves that two seconds pause to ask, hey, did they really ask for my help or am I stepping in because I really understand and have heard, taken the time to hear what they need or am I stepping in because not stepping in makes me feel too uncomfortable, right?

MELODY: But it takes, okay, what you're suggesting takes time, right? What you're suggesting will mean needing to really understand the person but the reality is, okay, yes, I've been on the receiving end of that and I know how frustrating it is but, you know, this podcast is about full honesty and full expression, right?

FAITH: Bring it.

MELODY: I have to say that I have had that kind of presumptuous care as well, like, I've done it to people as well, I think the most obvious of which is my child because, you know, as the parent, I know better, right? I'm saying that tongue-in-cheek. I just had to clarify but the thing is, is that I have done it before and sometimes you just go, why can't, okay, let's make it a bit more concrete, right? The one example that I can think of is this person I know has, doesn't have a job, has been unemployed for a really long time, is in debt, has had to borrow money from people to live, correct? And so the thing is, why don't you get a job? Like, that's the solution, correct?
And the thing is.
FAITH: Sometimes when I hear people say that, it feels like saying to a drowning person, why don't you just don't drown?
MELODY: Yes, but no, it wasn't saying it in that sense, it's like, why don't you get a job? Like, you know, the problem, the problem that this person have is that they, so, okay, they were offered, let's just say they were offered the equivalent of a cleaning job, okay? So, they have to clean a restaurant. So, they have, they were actually given the opportunity to get that job so that they have an income but they actually turned it down and they said they turned it down because “it's below me, I do not want to do any cleaning”. And this is when the presumptuous care come in, right? Because I'm going, no, it is still a job, you need money coming in. 
FAITH: So, but then the question comes as to why are we so invested when someone doesn't do something, you know what I mean? It's like, what's driving, what's really driving this, what's really driving our feelings, right?
MELODY: This one's self-interest because I'll be completely honest and say self-interest because there is a lot of borrowing of money.

FAITH: Exactly and that is a valid, that's a valid drive, that's a valid drive to say that's why you're feeling so invested, that's why you're feeling to try to want to control the situation and all that and there's a lot of unpacking to do because that's the thing, there are very, the context is very different to talk about how you respond to your child and how much, how much of you just do what I tell you to do because right now I don't have time to just parse everything out with you versus going through everything slowly, unpacking, taking the time to listen. It's very different from saying you're raising a child versus you are speaking to someone who is an adult who you want to afford agency to.
MELODY: Okay, yeah, fair. Actually, you know, even for parenting, right, it's just reminded me about what you were saying because there is this thing, right, for parenting and I think it applies here as well with this presumptuous care because we, say for example, okay, this is my kid, he's in the shower stall and I come, he is having a shower, in the middle of having a shower, I step in because, you know, we have no boundaries, so I step in and he's having a shower and I see water everywhere, like it's not just in the stall, it's like there's water seeping out from underneath, and I'm like, what are you doing? You need to, so this is where it comes in, right, you need to shower properly or you need to, you know, not splash water, you need to do all of this but then if I had taken the time to, which, you know, just so happened at that point of time, I don't know why but I did because it's not something I usually do, but if I had taken the time to, which I did, he actually said, “Oh, I was trying to clean the shower stall,” but being a kid who has, you know, less dexterity and less coordination, water went everywhere, but really the intent is that he was trying to do something, so it's the same, I mean, it's kind of what you're saying, right, there's the presumptuous care, you need to do this, but then when you actually take the time to understand, actually there is a whole story behind it.
FAITH: I wonder if sometimes taking the time doesn't, if sometimes taking the time doesn't take as long as we think it needs because, okay, if you were to go back to the whole scenario, just giving the example of the scenario with, you know, you and your boy, right, if you were only given the two seconds to just stop and think, if I can redo this and I get one question or two questions, how would you have redone it? Not thinking like, oh, can I sit down and while he's like, you know, in the nude and with water all over, sit down and have this long conversation, no, but just like, instead of just, no, stop it, don't do this, but redo it as like curiosity, from a perspective of curiosity.
MELODY: Yeah, what's happening, what are you doing, what are you doing?
FAITH: Right, and that doesn't take, but the actual time, so time is very funny, right? The time it takes to ask that question is not long, but it feels like an eternity internally to stop, pause, wait, reframe what's happening here. All of that inside is like, wow, that's a lot of words.
MELODY: Which is why it's easier to tell someone, oh, this is what you do because, and back to what you were saying, right, about presumptuous care and the advice like adult, between adult, right, it's like basically it sounds like, and this is me being presumptuous as well, but it sounds like the person who's giving that advice or giving that tip just thinks that they know better.
FAITH: Or they really do care, but they maybe don't have the skills yet to stop and do all of that, take that time to do all of that internal stop questioning thing and all that, you know, like, wait, what's driving me? What did it ask for? What's happening here? What's really happening inside of me? Because I think a lot of times when we jump into presumptuous care, and I say this because I have done it too, and I recognise that when I do this, and I recognise that this is not universal, I don't speak for everybody, but when I do it, often there is something else that's driving this need to step in without curiosity. There's often something else that is pushing curiosity away, that's pushing consent away, and that something has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with me. And it's not something I should be putting on that person to work out with me. It's not something I should put on that person to say, hey, I'm feeling uncomfortable right now. I know you've got your things that you have to deal with, but make me feel less comfortable, please, about this situation. It's like, this is my job. It's not your problem. I need to do this.
MELODY: It's not a natural thing to do though. It is not a natural thing to do. Like, it's very, very common for us to be reactionary.
FAITH: I agree, because even as I recognise this now, because I am in a head space where I feel safe, where I feel comfortable, where I feel that I'm all gathered and I'm with myself. But when I'm in a head space where I'm just feeling threatened, I'm feeling fear, I'm feeling scarcity, forget it. I am back to my old patterns, old pathways.
MELODY: And this is the funny thing, right? Because you say that it's at a time when you're feeling threatened, there's scarcity and stuff like that, but you only recognise this looking back. When you are in it, all you know is, I don't feel good and I'm reacting.
FAITH: Yes. And that is something that I think I'm working on because I do want to honour the intent behind people's actions. I can see the care. I can see the effort. And sometimes, I even feel the emotions behind their help. I can even feel a little bit of their own desperation behind their help. Maybe it's the longing to connect. Maybe it's this desperation to support, to feel useful, whatever it is. People are complex. And sometimes, their help really isn't about me. It's about them, their discomfort, their fear, their identity, they need to be the helper, whatever. And while I've learned to step away, to leave their help on the table, I still struggle with just not wanting to let them down.
MELODY: Okay. So what you're saying is that you notice that, well, actually, there's a few things I wanted to say there. Firstly, it's that, yes, just because they are rude or presumptuous or whatever it is, doesn't mean that they don't love you as well. The two can coexist together. I don't mean love as in lay down their life for you, but really do have a concern and care for you. They do love you enough to want to give you their care, even though they're being rude about it.
FAITH: I would phrase it this way. I think that there is some element of care. How much of it, I don't know. But there's always this some part of it. There is some care. That's all I can say.
MELODY: So what you're saying then is that because you recognise that, therefore, you feel like you need to do what they've suggested, even though you know it's wrong for you? Is that what you're saying?
FAITH: No, I don't feel the need to do what they suggested. I can leave it alone. I have come to the spot where I can leave it alone. But I still feel the need to make them feel not rejected. To make them feel comfortable. To make them feel comfortable with their discomfort. Like if I sense that something else is driving them, I feel this need to try to soothe that drive.

MELODY: Yeah. Well, I guess it's because you want to show your appreciation for the fact that they've reached out. So you feel like there is a need to say thank you in a way, but not say thank you by, say thank you in a way. And if you're not saying thank you by accepting their help, you are saying thank you by helping them in return.
FAITH: Helping them with their uncomfortable feelings? I don't know.
MELODY: By being presumptuous yourself.
FAITH: I mean, this is something that has to be... And I also think that sometimes it really depends on the context. It really depends on the context, right? It depends on who I'm talking to. It depends on the situation, which is why I think this is what we're talking about. It's like life in the grey. There's really no one hard and fast rule, but there is a certain element of, you know, on both sides, like on the one hand, how do I pause, right? How do I take that two seconds to pause so that when I am in my own scarcity headspace or when I'm being driven by something else other than true care, right? Rather than care. Let's say, for example, you have two things going on, there’s care, and there is also your own wounds. How do I take the two seconds to make sure that what's really driving here, the care or the wound, and then to address that? And the flip side is also that when someone else is also struggling with that, how do I not let their intentions, right? Override my own boundaries, my own timing, my own truth, right? How do I stay compassionate to them while not abandoning myself?
MELODY: I guess like with the first thing, right, about how you feel like you need to soothe whatever it is that's driving them. Maybe what I'm going to suggest here may not be very popular, but I like to think that it's not your job, in that sense, to soothe whatever it is that's driving them because, like I referred to before, right, as a joke, but now thinking about it even more, you trying to soothe whatever's driving them is, in turn, you being presumptuous that they need that solution.

FAITH: That's a good point. Well, I mean, and I also have to ask myself, why do I feel this drive to soothe them? What's happening here? What's driving this need to soothe them, right? What's driving this need to make them feel comfortable? What's driving this need to, to the point where sometimes I find myself shape-shifting, twisting myself, you know, going beyond, and I recognise that sometimes, yes, it's important that we do care for someone else intentionally so that we don't accidentally hurt them, but if we do it to the point of abandoning ourselves, it can lead to resentment. It can lead to the point where it's like, hey, I've done so much for you, I'm twisting and turning myself to help you, to soothe you, and like you said, did they even ask for it, right? Because then now I'm doing the presumptuous care. 
MELODY: It's just back and forth, everyone just presuming here and there, but isn't that what life is? Like, this is what happens, right? This is why so many misunderstandings happen, because we just jump in. Number one, we just jump in, and number two, we don't take the time to reflect on our own actions as well. So yeah, everyone's just reacting at the end of the day, and that's the problem.
FAITH: Yeah, and I think maybe this is what the grey is for today, right? Maybe this is what we leave with our, you know, our community. I don't know, I think these are not easy questions, but they are worth asking, and I know we're not the only ones who sit with these questions, so we'd love to hear your thoughts. Leave us a comment, send us a DM, you can connect with us on Instagram, on Facebook, you can also email us through mumsatthetable.com and if this conversation has really resonated with you, please give it a like, because it does help more people find us, and we do appreciate for those of you who already have given it a like, and if you shared it with your friends, thank you so much for doing that. And well, this is Life in the Grey, a Mums At The Table podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Melody and I will be back next month.