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Kevin: Hello and welcome
back to Subspace Radio.

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It's me, Kevin,

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Rob: and me, Rob,

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Kevin: and we are here to talk about
the season three finale of Star Trek:

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Strange New Worlds New Life and New

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Rob: New Civilizations.

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Kevin: Uh, new life and new civilizations.

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Well, we visited, uh,
we visited a new planet,

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Rob: we did.

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Kevin: a civilization, this episode.

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Rob: There was a, a civilization
that has been come under

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the influence of the Vezda.

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Kevin: Mm indeed.

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And they have, uh, they have, um,
double pyramids in all of their cities.

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Rob: They really do and they, you know,
they influence their, their followers so

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much that they poke out their own eyes?

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Kevin: Rob, I can hear us both beating
about the bush around on this episode.

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What are your thoughts of this
grand finale of the season?

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Rob: Look, look it, it,
it was, it was okay.

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It was okay.

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There were some moments in there
that really stood out that were magic

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and wonderful and it's, it's, it's
amazing to watch an episode that

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Kevin: There was certainly some magic in
this episode, and I don't say that kindly.

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Rob: Yes.

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Uh, using the Asimov thing of, you
know, advanced science and magic are

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Kevin: They literally say, well,
this might as well be magic.

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Rob: Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, little bit of, uh, uh, Pike had
his own Inner Light moment at the end,

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Kevin: So that stuff was, I think, the
successful emotional core of this episode.

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Rob: Very much so.

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Uh, heavy lifting from Melanie
Scrofano and Anson Mount.

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They were on fire this

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Kevin: They were on fire, not just
in the big moments at the end of the

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episode, but in the small moments
at the start of the episode, they,

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they were firing on all cylinders.

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You know, you can always tell when
it's a character's exit because

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they are especially charismatic
in the first scene of the episode.

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Rob: When they're hugging each other,
walking through the corridors going,

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can we just have 72 hours of nothing?

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I'm going,

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Kevin: me to your cabin.

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Rob: Yeah, I'm there going well, goodbye.

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Well, that's the last we're seeing of her.

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That answers the question
of what happens to Batel.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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Uh, but apart from that emotional
center and the performance of these

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two character actors, I, I did
not care for most of this episode.

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Rob: I love your, I did
not care for this, Robert.

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Yes, there were some moments that,
like all the heavy lifting they did in

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the previous uh, episode, um, kind of
came undone, the return of Gamble, and

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he was quite ridiculous and one note.

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Uh, his costume was
unintentionally, ridiculous.

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Kevin: Oh yeah.

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Rob: The suit, the thing covering his eyes

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Kevin: You are so right.

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When they were walking up behind
him and I'm like, well, it's Gamble.

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Like, it's obviously Gamble.

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Uh, but the horns were there and I
didn't realize, but I, I was predisposed

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to not liking what they were gonna
do with him because the, because of

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the, the big shoulders and the horns.

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I was like, come on.

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Rob: Yeah, yeah.

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It, it came across as,
well, this is costume.

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Kevin: He was such a charismatic
character when he was Gamble to

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make him a non charismatic villain
was, it felt like such a shame.

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Rob: It was very one note.

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That, especially with last episode
he was in, there was a menace, there

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was a, a cruelty, there was morbid
glee he had and sort of like torturing

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his, uh, prey before he killed them.

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Kevin: And the setup of this civilization
that worships them as gods is enticing.

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It would've been nice to see him
behave as a worship worthy god.

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Like what is the
charismatic version of that?

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That the Starfleet can
be going No, no, no.

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Don't buy into it.

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But you can see why they do.

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But it's like, no, poke your
eyes out for I'm your god.

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Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There's some nice moments like, um,
uh, M'Benga and Una acting drunk.

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That was quite cute.

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Um, uh, and, um, okay,
well let's, let's, uh,

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Kevin: There, there ends
the, the cute moments.

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Rob: Let's, let's, uh, let's deal with
the mind meld that came earlier than,

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uh, as actually the first mind meld
that apparently happened in the original

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series, but now they're doing another

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Kevin: Yeah, I feel that ship has sailed.

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Rob: Fast and loose.

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Kevin: When it is introduced as
a concept in, in the original

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series, it is kind of like.

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But so many other things have been this.

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Like we were talking about Katras
earlier in this series, and I was like,

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how does anyone know about Katras?

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I thought they were a tightly kept
secret that we do not discuss with

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outsiders and, and mind melds were
in that same list for me, that when

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they come out in the original series,
there is this moment where you can tell

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Spock does not want to discuss it, but
the needs of the moment require it.

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And here they're kind of like,
well, let's go to the bar.

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There's a lot of people
around, but, uh, it's okay.

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We'll talk Jim Kirk into it here.

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Um, the fact that Jim Kirk's
captain is a Vulcan who can

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presumably steer her ship just fine.

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Like why does it need to be, Jim Kirk
is not clear at all other than the,

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to, to service the fans, as it were.

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Rob: And the, the actual element
of a mind meld has be, uh, there's,

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had a lot of weight put onto it.

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So like with the Katras, sort of
like this, this almost mythological

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type process or what it means.

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And especially with the original movies,
the, the process of a mind meld could

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be quite invasive and violent in a way,
especially between, um, uh, Spock and

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when he's torturing, uh, Kim Cattrall.

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Um, no matter how distressed that Spock
was, that he was doing it, um, uh, Kim

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Cattrall was a lot more, uh, distressed.

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Just to use it now for a gag so that now
Kirk knows that Spock is with La'an and

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to do a bit of a, and you're going, eh.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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it's hard not to smile.

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Like when they were working in
synchronicity and, and Pelia is like,

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oh, they're moving in beautiful motion.

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And, and like,

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Rob: that is a flawless, that is a
flawless Carol Kane impersonation.

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Kevin: In a better episode, the
mind meld would've bothered me more.

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But for me, this is the least of its sins.

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Rob: enough.

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Kevin: Good science fiction, I, I like to
say, invites you to believe one impossible

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thing, and then explore what might be true
if that one impossible thing were true.

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And this episode, by my count, has at
least four impossible things, and that's

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even before we get to the mind meld that
enables Spock and Kirk to steer their

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ships at exactly the same time across
some distance of the vacuum of space.

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Rob: fire a phaser blast that is
equal to half the power of a sun.

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Kevin: Oh two batteries.

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I, I love that moment.

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Come on.

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Scotty, still e even in an
episode like this can do no wrong.

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Rob: Martin Quinn is
doing a wonderful job.

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That's for damn sure.

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Kevin: Uh, so we had the Vezda rebuild
gamble's body and trigger the transporter

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from inside the transporter buffer.

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The line of dialogue is,
Is that even possible?

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And sp says, I would've
said no, until now.

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Until the plot of this episode

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Rob: Needs it, so Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Kevin: Uh, we know interdimensional
space folds along those,

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oh, what do you call 'em?

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Ley lines.

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As soon as they said ley lines, I groaned.

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Uh, Spock looks dubious at the
suggestion that ley lines are a thing.

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Uh, but of course, Sam Kirk is there to,
to say, literally no, they're a thing.

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And then Scotty presses a couple of
buttons and a map of them appears

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on the tabletop just like that.

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So something is, is either unbelievable
to exist or there is a map of them,

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but both of these things are true 10
seconds apart in the same episode.

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Um, this whole thing of
destiny and prophecy.

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Like the last time I feel like we
were laying on the trowl of destiny

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this thick was Star Trek Section 31

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Rob: Ah, yeah.

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Kevin: when, where it, it explained away
a thousand coincidences in that movie.

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And in this episode, someone
actually says, too many coincidences.

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Can I tell you about
the concept of destiny?

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I think you'll find it explains
everything convincingly, including

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how M'Benga's life story is scrawled
on this, this, uh, this piece of, of

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impenetrable rock on an alien world.

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Rob: And they put so much in no
M'Benga needs to be down there.

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He made a connection with Gamble, and
as soon as his plot purpose is served,

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he is literally knocked out and not
seen for the rest of the episode.

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Kevin: Then last, but certainly not
least, the, the fundamental premise of

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this episode that, um, Batel has gotten
enough transfusions from other races

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that she now is the sum total of all
races', ability to fight Capital E, Evil.

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Rob: So she's not just Gorn,
she's Gorn, Human, Illyrian

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Kevin: and Chimera Blossom.

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Rob: And Chimera Bl— Yes.

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Yes.

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And I think she walked past,

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Kevin: somehow those four
round up to all races,

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Rob: she walked past a Vulcan.

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So she's got a bit of Vulcan.

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Um, yes.

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Um, look, that's the

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Kevin: should have transformed her into
a Vulcan in that Vulcan episode, so they

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could have added something to that list.

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Rob: Yeah.

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Um, uh, yes,

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Kevin: I can see what they were going for.

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We have an episodic show where
every episode stands alone and is

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a complete story in its own right.

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But here at the end of the season,
we're gonna do something unexpected.

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We are going to reveal that all
of these episodes contributed to a

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grand conclusion that you could not
foresee and our characters could

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not foresee, and it feels like fate.

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That is not what the experience of
watching this episode was, though.

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This episode felt like a cheap sequel
to a not very good episode earlier

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in the season, and, and a couple of
other, uh, things hand waved away

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as, uh, improbable, improbable con
coincidences we were asked to allow.

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Rob: And we need to have an, an
element of sacrifice because so many

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of our cast are continuity impervious.

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So Batel is someone who is expendable.

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Um, and we need to have that element
of, you know, she, we've only

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Kevin: Not only expendable, but
superfluous to canon because at a certain

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point we have to get Pike to a place where
his ideal future is to spend hi the rest

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of his life in that fantasy with Vina.

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Rob: With, with Melissa

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Kevin: Of course.

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Yes.

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Rob: Never gonna forget that, Melissa
George, if you are listening and I know

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you do listen to our podcast, well, I will
not forget that you, Melissa George, were

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in season two of Discovery playing Vina.

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00:11:38,106 --> 00:11:39,606
Well done Aussie Melissa George.

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Kevin: You know, Melissa George probably
has fewer degrees of separation from us

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than most Star Trek, uh, cast members.

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And so I think we do have a shot of
getting Melissa George into our audience.

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Rob: Oh, if, if we could, if Melissa,
if you are, if you are listening, uh,

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just reach out to us, um, uh, on BlueSky
and, um, let's, uh, let's organize.

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You could be our first special, our
second special guest on the show.

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Kevin: Absolutely.

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We'll, we'll find something
to talk about with you.

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Rob: Yes.

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00:12:11,478 --> 00:12:15,198
Um, but let's talk about the,
the highlight of the episode,

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Kevin: Yeah.

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The, the Inner Light sequence, as it were.

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Rob: Where we see Pike's, he's given the
gift by Batel, really, of what his life

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could have been, um, the long, fruitful,
happy life, him and Marie having children.

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The disaster never happens.

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Um,

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Kevin: The log cabin timeline.

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Rob: Log cabin timeline.

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00:12:42,570 --> 00:12:44,171
Take that, Kelvin timeline.

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Kevin: That's right.

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Rob: Um, where we have children,
where we have um, uncle Sock.

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Kevin: Yes, uncle Sock.

230
00:12:52,722 --> 00:12:53,412
We had the dog.

231
00:12:53,412 --> 00:12:55,242
I wish we had found the dog's name.

232
00:12:55,242 --> 00:12:56,982
That would've been a nice touch.

233
00:12:57,131 --> 00:12:58,091
Rob: The dog was beautiful.

234
00:12:58,152 --> 00:13:04,002
Kevin: We had the, the devastating scene
of them sitting on the couch, and Pike

235
00:13:04,002 --> 00:13:09,822
has to go on his mission that he knows
goes wrong, and the, the, the heart to

236
00:13:09,822 --> 00:13:16,932
heart of this, this couple with, with,
uh, with a kid, and everything is perfect.

237
00:13:16,932 --> 00:13:20,082
And they know that everything
they have to allow everything

238
00:13:20,082 --> 00:13:22,122
to, to crumble around them.

239
00:13:22,782 --> 00:13:27,342
Our, our, our time, our
borrowed time is up.

240
00:13:27,492 --> 00:13:32,622
And, uh, the catch in his voice
in that scene, tears me apart.

241
00:13:32,742 --> 00:13:33,282
Um,

242
00:13:33,341 --> 00:13:38,171
Rob: The moments of her every time the
knock is a transition to jumping ahead.

243
00:13:38,711 --> 00:13:40,481
And she keeps on saying, stay with me.

244
00:13:41,231 --> 00:13:41,951
Stay with me.

245
00:13:41,951 --> 00:13:42,551
Look at me.

246
00:13:42,761 --> 00:13:43,541
Stay here.

247
00:13:44,021 --> 00:13:46,181
Stay with me, Chris, you're going, oh my

248
00:13:46,572 --> 00:13:47,532
Kevin: Yeah, it is.

249
00:13:47,592 --> 00:13:48,552
It works.

250
00:13:48,697 --> 00:13:48,917
Um,

251
00:13:49,391 --> 00:13:52,361
Rob: Because I've been, 'cause we've been
talking about a little bit worried about.

252
00:13:53,306 --> 00:13:54,626
Are they gonna change canon?

253
00:13:54,746 --> 00:13:56,276
They've been changing everything else.

254
00:13:56,306 --> 00:13:58,616
Are they gonna find a way
to get Pike out of it?

255
00:13:58,842 --> 00:13:59,802
Kevin: Nah, I had faith.

256
00:13:59,832 --> 00:14:00,462
I had faith.

257
00:14:00,462 --> 00:14:03,462
And so as soon as they show, as soon
as the first scene of this happened,

258
00:14:03,462 --> 00:14:04,722
I was like, I know what they're doing.

259
00:14:04,902 --> 00:14:06,612
They're showing us the
happy ending we're not gonna

260
00:14:06,896 --> 00:14:09,026
Rob: we're not gonna get,
and he has to do it alone.

261
00:14:09,282 --> 00:14:12,042
Kevin: and that is how they like,
that's how they cheat canon is they,

262
00:14:12,102 --> 00:14:13,932
they want to give us a happy ending.

263
00:14:13,932 --> 00:14:17,202
They know they can't, so they're gonna
give it to us in an alternate timeline.

264
00:14:17,412 --> 00:14:18,882
It's a tale as old as time, Rob.

265
00:14:19,321 --> 00:14:21,401
Rob: It is, it really is.

266
00:14:21,401 --> 00:14:24,911
And in this happy timeline,
Melissa George, we know

267
00:14:24,911 --> 00:14:26,051
you're gonna be on the podcast

268
00:14:26,172 --> 00:14:30,912
Kevin: Uh, the, the kids asking
for their blessing to get married.

269
00:14:30,912 --> 00:14:31,362
It really

270
00:14:31,451 --> 00:14:33,581
Rob: with April's son, April's son.

271
00:14:33,581 --> 00:14:36,371
He was cute and daggy and nerdy.

272
00:14:36,431 --> 00:14:38,861
They were, and the daughter was gorgeous.

273
00:14:39,101 --> 00:14:40,841
Lovely, lovely characters.

274
00:14:40,841 --> 00:14:42,671
The two of them together going, ah,

275
00:14:42,689 --> 00:14:46,379
Kevin: Great age makeup, except maybe
in that very last scene, like the,

276
00:14:46,529 --> 00:14:49,499
it feels like always the last scene
is the one where like, we'll keep

277
00:14:49,499 --> 00:14:51,179
aging you up until it looks wrong.

278
00:14:51,209 --> 00:14:52,019
Oh, it looks wrong.

279
00:14:52,499 --> 00:14:55,379
Uh, I guess we have to use it though
'cause we already paid for it, you know?

280
00:14:55,528 --> 00:14:58,798
Rob: Yeah, and I, well, I, they
thought, let's just distract them

281
00:14:58,798 --> 00:15:00,628
with Anson Mount's hair some more.

282
00:15:00,809 --> 00:15:01,139
Kevin: Yeah.

283
00:15:01,499 --> 00:15:06,029
I mean, it's the exact same in The
Inner Light is you buy the aging

284
00:15:06,029 --> 00:15:08,939
of that couple until the last scene
and you're like, you know what?

285
00:15:08,999 --> 00:15:09,839
I'm here for it.

286
00:15:10,259 --> 00:15:14,699
I, I, I forgive the makeup not
working because everything else is.

287
00:15:14,953 --> 00:15:15,373
Rob: Yeah.

288
00:15:15,703 --> 00:15:17,713
Um, so that was devastating

289
00:15:17,864 --> 00:15:23,174
Kevin: then, and then he walks to the door
and opens the door and Gamble is there.

290
00:15:23,174 --> 00:15:26,624
And I'm like, oh yeah,
we're in this episode.

291
00:15:26,923 --> 00:15:28,603
Rob: have to go back to do that.

292
00:15:28,934 --> 00:15:32,384
Kevin: And just as they were so broken
hearted to be pulled back into their

293
00:15:32,384 --> 00:15:35,444
timeline, I was broken hearted to
be pulled back into this episode.

294
00:15:37,468 --> 00:15:39,148
Rob: Uh, maybe not for the same reason.

295
00:15:39,344 --> 00:15:42,734
Kevin: Uh, Gamble's just staring
there blank faced in that doorway.

296
00:15:42,734 --> 00:15:43,424
And I'm like, wow.

297
00:15:43,424 --> 00:15:46,244
You are like, you know this isn't working.

298
00:15:46,528 --> 00:15:46,918
Rob: Yeah.

299
00:15:47,008 --> 00:15:47,428
Yeah.

300
00:15:48,208 --> 00:15:53,098
Um, so jumping ahead when everything's
resolved, I love the, just the quiet

301
00:15:53,128 --> 00:15:58,618
moment of Pike and Una sitting there with
a drink going, you want to talk about it

302
00:15:58,814 --> 00:15:59,684
Kevin: With a needle drop.

303
00:15:59,684 --> 00:16:01,034
A rare Star Trek needle

304
00:16:01,183 --> 00:16:01,813
Rob: Yeah.

305
00:16:01,813 --> 00:16:02,203
Playing.

306
00:16:02,263 --> 00:16:06,313
Yeah, doing the usual sort of like late
nineties, early naughties television

307
00:16:06,313 --> 00:16:11,473
thing of a montage with music,
uh, of a, of a modern hit playing.

308
00:16:11,473 --> 00:16:12,313
I'm there going, Ooh.

309
00:16:12,343 --> 00:16:12,673
Okay.

310
00:16:12,673 --> 00:16:15,823
This reminds me of most shows I
watched in the early naughties.

311
00:16:15,959 --> 00:16:16,349
Kevin: Yeah.

312
00:16:16,469 --> 00:16:19,709
And the, and the, uh, the
apron doesn't have Chef Pike on

313
00:16:19,813 --> 00:16:21,448
Rob: It doesn't have Chef Pike.

314
00:16:21,598 --> 00:16:21,928
No.

315
00:16:21,958 --> 00:16:22,108
And

316
00:16:22,169 --> 00:16:23,489
Kevin: never will.

317
00:16:25,768 --> 00:16:28,318
Rob: But the two of them sharing a
drink and going, I don't wanna talk

318
00:16:28,318 --> 00:16:29,998
about it now, but I will at some point.

319
00:16:30,058 --> 00:16:31,528
That was, yeah.

320
00:16:31,739 --> 00:16:32,159
Kevin: Yeah.

321
00:16:32,219 --> 00:16:38,159
Uh, final scene on the bridge where we
discovered that Roger Korby's research

322
00:16:38,189 --> 00:16:43,709
unveiled enough previously unvisited
planets for a five year mission.

323
00:16:43,739 --> 00:16:45,299
Where have I heard that before?

324
00:16:45,659 --> 00:16:49,259
Um, it's, uh, it's been said in
some interviews that this was like a

325
00:16:49,259 --> 00:16:54,389
soft series finale just in case they
weren't renewed for a fourth year.

326
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:55,169
And you can feel it.

327
00:16:55,169 --> 00:17:02,879
Like the, they've, they've wrapped up Pike
enough to connect the dots to the future.

328
00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:04,169
They did the same with the Gorn.

329
00:17:04,169 --> 00:17:07,259
Like there are no loose ends here.

330
00:17:07,679 --> 00:17:13,109
There are some things we would like to
have seen tied up in richer ways over

331
00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:18,119
more time that felt a little like rushed
together here at the end, but it really

332
00:17:18,149 --> 00:17:25,709
does kind of reset the stage for them
to have the next season and a half that

333
00:17:25,709 --> 00:17:27,899
we have left be very much a blank slate.

334
00:17:27,899 --> 00:17:33,479
Like there's not much that is on the
to-do list, I feel like at this point.

335
00:17:33,808 --> 00:17:35,428
Rob: I hadn't actually
thought of it that way.

336
00:17:35,428 --> 00:17:36,778
And that makes a lot more sense.

337
00:17:36,838 --> 00:17:40,918
Like the scene with Korby and
Chapel going, this isn't gonna

338
00:17:40,918 --> 00:17:42,598
be easy, is it, the two of us?

339
00:17:42,658 --> 00:17:46,828
Um, having Spock and Kirk have
a moment, but I did like how it

340
00:17:46,828 --> 00:17:49,168
ended with the Kirk brothers just

341
00:17:49,244 --> 00:17:52,844
Kevin: When, uh, when, um,
Sam Kirk sits down in the

342
00:17:52,844 --> 00:17:54,884
foreground with his blue uniform.

343
00:17:54,884 --> 00:17:56,684
Did your heart jump the way minded did?

344
00:17:56,714 --> 00:17:58,274
I was like, it's a doctor.

345
00:17:58,304 --> 00:17:58,874
It's a doctor.

346
00:17:58,874 --> 00:17:59,834
Is it a McCoy?

347
00:18:00,224 --> 00:18:04,574
And then, no, it's just stupid old
Sam Kirk and his stupid mustache.

348
00:18:05,938 --> 00:18:06,868
Rob: No, I was there.

349
00:18:06,868 --> 00:18:07,108
Go.

350
00:18:07,168 --> 00:18:10,948
Every time Kirk shows up, I'm there
going, you've gotta see your brother.

351
00:18:11,008 --> 00:18:12,388
Spend more time with your brother.

352
00:18:12,478 --> 00:18:14,218
You don't have that much
time with your brother.

353
00:18:14,308 --> 00:18:14,878
Sure.

354
00:18:15,088 --> 00:18:17,818
After he dies, you never
mention him again, but you

355
00:18:17,818 --> 00:18:18,588
need to spend time with him.

356
00:18:19,424 --> 00:18:19,784
Kevin: Yeah.

357
00:18:19,814 --> 00:18:20,864
Uh, I agree.

358
00:18:21,404 --> 00:18:26,054
So, yeah, all all of that wrap up stuff,
I, I'm At this point, all we've been told

359
00:18:26,054 --> 00:18:31,634
about the future of this series is, is
that it ends with Kirk's first day on the

360
00:18:31,634 --> 00:18:33,734
job as the new captain of the Enterprise.

361
00:18:33,734 --> 00:18:38,444
That is the end of Strange New Worlds,
but between there, here and there.

362
00:18:39,374 --> 00:18:43,514
There are no like, um,
things that must be done.

363
00:18:43,514 --> 00:18:45,044
It's kind of open slate.

364
00:18:45,044 --> 00:18:47,204
They can do whatever they
want with that gap of

365
00:18:47,313 --> 00:18:47,533
Rob: all.

366
00:18:47,938 --> 00:18:51,448
All we've got is information is,
we've got a puppet episode at some

367
00:18:51,448 --> 00:18:55,928
point in season four, and we've
got, as you said, Kirk's first day.

368
00:18:56,398 --> 00:18:56,938
Um.

369
00:18:58,078 --> 00:19:01,378
So, yeah, we don't even have like,
'cause Pike's accident doesn't

370
00:19:01,378 --> 00:19:04,298
happen until after first day.

371
00:19:04,424 --> 00:19:05,054
Kevin: That's right.

372
00:19:05,114 --> 00:19:11,654
And, uh, yeah, I, I mean there's
more how did Boyce get on the ship.

373
00:19:11,654 --> 00:19:16,154
We have, we have the, you know,
the bartender doctor before McCoy.

374
00:19:16,154 --> 00:19:17,834
We have yet to meet that person.

375
00:19:17,834 --> 00:19:19,884
So it'd be nice to meet Dr. Boyce.

376
00:19:20,354 --> 00:19:25,154
But, uh, apart from that, yeah, there's,
there's not a whole lot, uh, here, uh,

377
00:19:25,244 --> 00:19:30,404
which I kind of like because like they're,
they're out of, uh, pull at the thread

378
00:19:30,404 --> 00:19:34,634
of canon tricks and they need, they need
to again do my favorite thing, which

379
00:19:34,634 --> 00:19:36,344
is tell some character stories, I hope.

380
00:19:36,703 --> 00:19:37,363
Rob: Yeah, me too.

381
00:19:37,578 --> 00:19:37,918
Me too.

382
00:19:37,934 --> 00:19:40,094
Kevin: Or, you know, they could
invent another Klingon war.

383
00:19:40,244 --> 00:19:40,814
Who knows?

384
00:19:41,173 --> 00:19:41,953
Rob: They could.

385
00:19:42,013 --> 00:19:42,943
They really could.

386
00:19:42,943 --> 00:19:48,463
Or they could bring in the Jen Hadar like
a couple of decades or centuries before.

387
00:19:49,244 --> 00:19:53,714
Kevin: The cast has been on record of
saying like, next year is their strongest,

388
00:19:53,714 --> 00:19:55,454
like, I guess, what else would they say?

389
00:19:55,454 --> 00:19:59,264
But there's been a few things of,
if you, if you liked this season,

390
00:19:59,264 --> 00:20:00,854
wait till you see next season.

391
00:20:00,859 --> 00:20:01,274
Uh uh

392
00:20:01,423 --> 00:20:03,733
Rob: What does that mean for,
what does that mean for us?

393
00:20:03,733 --> 00:20:04,398
Who went, eh.

394
00:20:04,994 --> 00:20:05,804
Kevin: Yeah.

395
00:20:06,194 --> 00:20:10,934
I mean, if you liked, I'm reading
it optimistically as if you liked

396
00:20:10,934 --> 00:20:15,254
the, the high points of this season,
the next season has higher highs.

397
00:20:15,314 --> 00:20:16,454
That's what I'm hoping for.

398
00:20:16,573 --> 00:20:17,293
Rob: Yeah, me too.

399
00:20:17,353 --> 00:20:17,833
Me too.

400
00:20:17,893 --> 00:20:21,733
You know, I want it to go back to be
the show that what I've loved about it

401
00:20:21,733 --> 00:20:25,933
for the first two years, and there are
elements of season three that I went,

402
00:20:26,263 --> 00:20:28,153
this is why I fell in love with it.

403
00:20:28,663 --> 00:20:32,773
Um, you know, all those, all those
years ago, but two seasons ago,

404
00:20:32,894 --> 00:20:33,374
Kevin: Mm-hmm.

405
00:20:33,793 --> 00:20:37,363
Rob: And I got excited about it
during season two of Discovery

406
00:20:37,363 --> 00:20:38,863
when I went, I want more of that.

407
00:20:38,983 --> 00:20:41,023
I don't want to stay on Discovery.

408
00:20:41,023 --> 00:20:41,983
I want to go over there.

409
00:20:42,344 --> 00:20:42,794
Kevin: Yes.

410
00:20:43,514 --> 00:20:48,524
Um, but, uh, I, I almost forgot again,
Rob, we have a topic to cover, as

411
00:20:48,524 --> 00:20:51,074
we always do here on Subspace Radio.

412
00:20:51,074 --> 00:20:54,284
We are going to talk about pure evil.

413
00:20:54,554 --> 00:20:56,174
They've been asking for us to do it.

414
00:20:56,193 --> 00:21:01,253
Rob: With a capital P and a
capital E, Pure Eeeeevilll.

415
00:21:01,324 --> 00:21:03,544
Kevin: I'll just adjust my
show notes to make sure that

416
00:21:03,544 --> 00:21:05,554
that E is capitalized properly.

417
00:21:05,928 --> 00:21:06,348
Rob: Please.

418
00:21:06,488 --> 00:21:06,708
Yes.

419
00:21:06,783 --> 00:21:07,683
No lowercase.

420
00:21:07,683 --> 00:21:09,993
Otherwise, that would be true evil.

421
00:21:10,324 --> 00:21:12,574
Kevin: They've been beating
about this bush with the

422
00:21:12,574 --> 00:21:16,434
Gorn and then with the Vezda.

423
00:21:16,924 --> 00:21:21,664
This, this idea that there is
the evil behind all evils, the

424
00:21:21,664 --> 00:21:23,254
evil that begets all evils.

425
00:21:23,524 --> 00:21:27,484
They are not an evil race,
they are evil itself.

426
00:21:27,514 --> 00:21:30,514
You know, the, all of these things, um.

427
00:21:31,684 --> 00:21:36,364
I can't tell if they are genuine in their
fascination with this as a concept or if

428
00:21:36,364 --> 00:21:43,834
it is just a device for, well, if we set
this race up as completely evil, then

429
00:21:44,584 --> 00:21:47,689
our heroes are justified in whatever
measures they take to defeat them.

430
00:21:48,273 --> 00:21:48,633
Rob: Yes.

431
00:21:48,633 --> 00:21:55,083
The whole concept of pure evil within
the Star Trek universe is always, it

432
00:21:55,083 --> 00:21:59,553
always sits kind of uncomfortably because
with, in other big franchises, you look

433
00:21:59,553 --> 00:22:05,433
at, say Star Wars, you have pure and
utter evil with no redeeming features.

434
00:22:05,433 --> 00:22:10,233
When it comes to, say, the Sith
and definitely the Emperor.

435
00:22:10,683 --> 00:22:15,903
Um, you have a redemption arc for, um,
you know, Darth Vader of course, but his

436
00:22:15,903 --> 00:22:18,303
influence that is a facet of pure evil.

437
00:22:18,303 --> 00:22:23,433
You look at even Doctor Who, one of
the most famous speeches from the, uh,

438
00:22:23,523 --> 00:22:27,093
the second doctor, which was sort of
like the defining moment of Patrick

439
00:22:27,093 --> 00:22:28,623
Troughton's version as the Doctor.

440
00:22:28,623 --> 00:22:29,973
And he went on to be incredible.

441
00:22:30,213 --> 00:22:33,183
He has a speech where he goes,
there are some, you know, there

442
00:22:33,183 --> 00:22:37,623
is evil out there in the universe
that, you know, must be fought.

443
00:22:38,373 --> 00:22:43,068
So, but with Star Trek, it
is all about how we relate.

444
00:22:43,128 --> 00:22:45,258
How we are going out.

445
00:22:45,258 --> 00:22:48,978
And it's not a, it's not a war show,
even though they used elements of,

446
00:22:49,398 --> 00:22:53,358
you know, uh, military, especially
within from Star Trek II onwards.

447
00:22:53,838 --> 00:22:57,228
Um, but it's, it sits
uncomfortably with me because

448
00:22:57,228 --> 00:22:58,878
it's always a case of No, no, no.

449
00:22:58,878 --> 00:23:01,638
It's what we find out about these races.

450
00:23:01,894 --> 00:23:04,654
Kevin: Again and again, we start
from a place of they're pure evil,

451
00:23:04,654 --> 00:23:09,514
and then we come to understand the
other and humanize them, if you

452
00:23:09,558 --> 00:23:14,508
Rob: Like, yeah, for me, like I
always haven't liked them going back

453
00:23:14,508 --> 00:23:20,868
into this prequel era of Star Trek
where the Klingons are the bad guys.

454
00:23:20,958 --> 00:23:25,488
Uh, 'cause I had so much fun with
Deep Space Nine, where we get to the

455
00:23:25,488 --> 00:23:30,888
point where the, the Federation is
in alliance with the Klingons and how

456
00:23:30,888 --> 00:23:35,958
these two races, they may not understand
each other completely, but there is a

457
00:23:35,958 --> 00:23:40,578
respect there and they, you know that,
that I'm going, that's pure Star Trek

458
00:23:40,578 --> 00:23:45,288
where you get to the point where our
baddies are now in many ways, allies.

459
00:23:46,564 --> 00:23:51,424
Kevin: So, yeah, we, we have gone back
and, and looked at other times that Star

460
00:23:51,424 --> 00:23:57,124
Trek pulled on the, you know, flipped
the switch of pure evil and, and use it

461
00:23:57,154 --> 00:24:00,724
however temporarily as, uh, a plot device.

462
00:24:01,474 --> 00:24:04,114
Um, I've got a TNG for you, Rob.

463
00:24:04,548 --> 00:24:06,468
Rob: I have a TNG episode too.

464
00:24:06,904 --> 00:24:08,614
Kevin: Does it have
evil in the title, Rob?

465
00:24:08,958 --> 00:24:10,783
Rob: It does not have evil in the title.

466
00:24:11,254 --> 00:24:15,394
Kevin: All right, well I'm gonna go
first 'cause this is a season one it

467
00:24:15,394 --> 00:24:19,054
is the episode that must be faced,
Rob is the episode that famously

468
00:24:19,414 --> 00:24:21,784
caused you to stop watching Star Trek.

469
00:24:22,504 --> 00:24:25,354
It is season one, episode 23, Skin

470
00:24:25,638 --> 00:24:26,898
Rob: Of Evil.

471
00:24:26,928 --> 00:24:29,598
That's a very Doctor
Who title it is a very.

472
00:24:29,928 --> 00:24:35,058
Doctor Who is very much has the
something of evil, the face of of horror.

473
00:24:35,058 --> 00:24:35,778
The Oh yeah.

474
00:24:35,808 --> 00:24:38,238
It's, it's a, it's a very
much Doctor Who title.

475
00:24:38,524 --> 00:24:41,194
Kevin: Have you ever gone back
to watch this episode since it

476
00:24:41,194 --> 00:24:42,754
made you stop watching Star Trek?

477
00:24:42,768 --> 00:24:46,398
Rob: W when I was trying to pick
an episode to watch for this, I did

478
00:24:46,398 --> 00:24:50,928
land on, from what I could remember,
there's not much redeeming in the

479
00:24:50,928 --> 00:24:55,518
way of the puddle of oo uh, yes.

480
00:24:55,938 --> 00:24:58,458
But no, I did, I, I, I, I was tempted.

481
00:24:58,638 --> 00:25:01,908
But then I found this other episode that
I will look forward to talking about.

482
00:25:01,908 --> 00:25:04,278
But yes, you have gone and revisited it

483
00:25:04,369 --> 00:25:05,434
Kevin: I have rewatched it.

484
00:25:05,794 --> 00:25:07,564
I, I laughed, I cried.

485
00:25:07,929 --> 00:25:11,614
I, I, I felt the loss of
Tasha Yar all over again.

486
00:25:11,898 --> 00:25:13,398
Rob: She drops really early as

487
00:25:13,504 --> 00:25:17,284
Kevin: She drops her like 15 minutes
into this episode, Tasha Yar is dead.

488
00:25:17,478 --> 00:25:18,408
Rob: 15.

489
00:25:18,498 --> 00:25:19,158
Wow.

490
00:25:19,188 --> 00:25:20,148
That's, yeah.

491
00:25:20,464 --> 00:25:24,094
Kevin: But just like I said,
she is extremely charismatic

492
00:25:24,094 --> 00:25:26,044
for those first 15 minutes.

493
00:25:26,388 --> 00:25:27,888
Rob: Denise Crosby's amazing.

494
00:25:28,038 --> 00:25:29,568
I really love Denise Crosby.

495
00:25:29,628 --> 00:25:31,998
Oh, if she stayed, oh,
if she could have stayed.

496
00:25:32,239 --> 00:25:32,629
Kevin: Yeah.

497
00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,799
Uh, right at the end of the season, the
second last episode of the season, I

498
00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:43,669
believe, if not close to it, um, famous
like famously Denise Crosby was unhappy

499
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:47,929
that her character was not getting
meaty stories told about her, and

500
00:25:47,929 --> 00:25:52,279
asked to be released from her contract
here at the end of the first season.

501
00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:59,929
So, um, this was the exit they
wrote for her, her, and it is, it

502
00:25:59,929 --> 00:26:02,059
is a divisive episode for sure.

503
00:26:02,089 --> 00:26:06,379
You wanna re refresh us on your
perspective on this episode and,

504
00:26:06,379 --> 00:26:09,499
and what it did to your appreciation
of Star Trek at the time?

505
00:26:09,708 --> 00:26:13,278
Rob: Um, yeah, I know
it was very shocking.

506
00:26:13,278 --> 00:26:18,948
It was like, you, you, even at that
age, I was aware of, even though it

507
00:26:18,948 --> 00:26:23,178
wasn't called, you know, the red shirt
problem, but I was kind of aware of,

508
00:26:24,258 --> 00:26:28,338
you know, the people who went on the
away mission were the expendable ones.

509
00:26:28,668 --> 00:26:32,368
And I'd grown so attached 'cause there
was something so unique about Tasha Yar

510
00:26:32,388 --> 00:26:38,328
being head of security, being a woman, um,
you know, a survivor of the rape gangs.

511
00:26:38,598 --> 00:26:43,878
Uh, if you didn't know, uh, she
only mentioned it every 17 seconds.

512
00:26:44,298 --> 00:26:50,598
Um, um, but to have this happen,
like literally the character

513
00:26:50,598 --> 00:26:54,078
of, you know what I love about
this new version of Star Trek?

514
00:26:54,228 --> 00:26:54,948
It's her.

515
00:26:55,338 --> 00:26:56,418
I'm, I'm all in.

516
00:26:56,478 --> 00:26:57,288
I have, you know,

517
00:26:57,724 --> 00:26:58,864
Kevin: She was your favorite character.

518
00:26:59,148 --> 00:26:59,388
Rob: Yeah.

519
00:26:59,388 --> 00:27:00,438
She was my favorite character.

520
00:27:00,438 --> 00:27:01,578
This is, this is me.

521
00:27:01,578 --> 00:27:04,518
I am like 11, 11, 12 years.

522
00:27:04,608 --> 00:27:04,758
Yeah.

523
00:27:04,758 --> 00:27:05,778
11-year-old Robbie.

524
00:27:05,958 --> 00:27:07,098
I'm going, okay.

525
00:27:07,458 --> 00:27:08,358
I'm all in now.

526
00:27:08,388 --> 00:27:13,728
I'm in, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna follow
this character for the next seven years.

527
00:27:13,728 --> 00:27:14,118
Great.

528
00:27:14,178 --> 00:27:17,028
And in, yeah, not even near
the end of the episode.

529
00:27:17,028 --> 00:27:22,038
In a gallant event, literally 15
minutes in, in one of the most

530
00:27:22,458 --> 00:27:24,978
pointless but shocking moments.

531
00:27:24,978 --> 00:27:25,818
And I've just gone,

532
00:27:27,978 --> 00:27:28,128
um.

533
00:27:30,393 --> 00:27:33,453
I was watching the episode, remember
going, they've gotta get her back.

534
00:27:33,753 --> 00:27:33,963
Okay.

535
00:27:33,963 --> 00:27:35,223
There's gonna be a twist at the end.

536
00:27:35,253 --> 00:27:39,003
They can't, this is my character and that,
and then they're going through the funeral

537
00:27:39,003 --> 00:27:42,933
going, okay, you're really convincing me
that this is, this is good, this is great.

538
00:27:42,933 --> 00:27:44,043
And then the episode ends.

539
00:27:44,043 --> 00:27:45,723
I'm going, no.

540
00:27:46,144 --> 00:27:46,444
Kevin: No.

541
00:27:47,253 --> 00:27:47,853
Rob: I'm done.

542
00:27:47,913 --> 00:27:48,783
I am out.

543
00:27:49,113 --> 00:27:52,143
I will never step back into
this show unless you're a

544
00:27:52,143 --> 00:27:53,613
movie with Malcolm McDowell.

545
00:27:53,824 --> 00:27:54,124
Kevin: Yeah.

546
00:27:54,424 --> 00:27:54,844
Wow.

547
00:27:55,054 --> 00:27:59,404
Um, still from the era where Star
Trek was filmed out of order.

548
00:27:59,404 --> 00:28:04,474
So Denise Crosby actually had more days
at work on the set of Star Trek, The Next

549
00:28:04,474 --> 00:28:07,804
Generation after this episode was shot.

550
00:28:07,804 --> 00:28:12,574
There is a, a famous shot, uh, leaving
the cargo bay in, in another episode

551
00:28:12,574 --> 00:28:15,994
where she stands in the background
and waves because it's her last shot

552
00:28:15,994 --> 00:28:20,794
on camera, uh, in the, in the series,
um, in a completely different episode.

553
00:28:20,824 --> 00:28:26,474
But, uh, yeah, n nevertheless, this for us
at the time was the end of poor Tasha Yar.

554
00:28:26,853 --> 00:28:31,323
Rob: For some reason I thought it was
earlier, like it was like a halfway point.

555
00:28:31,383 --> 00:28:34,618
I didn't realize it was so
near the end of the, of the

556
00:28:34,654 --> 00:28:35,644
Kevin: I would've said the same.

557
00:28:35,674 --> 00:28:36,544
Yeah, I agree.

558
00:28:36,544 --> 00:28:42,094
I mean, my memory is we had her for much
less than a season, but maybe, maybe

559
00:28:42,094 --> 00:28:46,324
that's part of the problem, isn't it, Rob,
that she felt like she was barely present

560
00:28:46,324 --> 00:28:47,914
in the, in the season of this show?

561
00:28:48,138 --> 00:28:48,428
Rob: Yeah.

562
00:28:48,568 --> 00:28:51,548
And more credit to her to just go, no.

563
00:28:52,277 --> 00:28:56,207
Kevin: I, don't think I've
actually heard her say so, but

564
00:28:56,237 --> 00:28:58,187
I wonder if she regrets leaving.

565
00:28:58,187 --> 00:29:03,047
Like, she, she certainly talks about
when she was invited back for Yesterday's

566
00:29:03,047 --> 00:29:07,547
Enterprise and then after that, when
she pitched the character story that

567
00:29:07,607 --> 00:29:13,667
led to Sela that she, she, at that
time saw Star Trek was treating its

568
00:29:13,667 --> 00:29:17,147
characters better and was something
she wanted to be a part of again.

569
00:29:17,387 --> 00:29:21,137
And Yesterday's Enterprise was the
thing, she was like, why, where were

570
00:29:21,137 --> 00:29:23,327
these scripts when I was on this show?

571
00:29:23,807 --> 00:29:28,337
Um, but I wonder if in hindsight she
feels like she made the wrong call

572
00:29:28,337 --> 00:29:30,347
exiting back then in season one.

573
00:29:30,647 --> 00:29:35,207
It's a pretty sweet gig if you're up for
the grind of a weekly television show.

574
00:29:35,567 --> 00:29:38,717
Uh, you can't do much better for
your career than, than Star Trek,

575
00:29:38,717 --> 00:29:40,457
The Next Generation for seven years.

576
00:29:40,531 --> 00:29:45,841
Rob: And especially, you know,
um, Marina Sirtis and, even though

577
00:29:45,841 --> 00:29:51,151
Gates McFadden left and then came
back, they had to, they did a lot

578
00:29:51,151 --> 00:29:53,401
of heavy lifting with a lot less.

579
00:29:53,521 --> 00:29:58,351
Um, but, uh, Denise Crosby is such
an immaculate professional, uh, her,

580
00:29:58,411 --> 00:30:04,111
her diplomatic answers is always,
you can read what she's saying.

581
00:30:04,111 --> 00:30:05,971
She never says it out publicly.

582
00:30:06,361 --> 00:30:07,531
Um, but she's very.

583
00:30:07,966 --> 00:30:12,376
You know, clear with that about,
you know, she wished she'd, you

584
00:30:12,376 --> 00:30:15,526
know, thought differently, um,
and made a different choice.

585
00:30:15,586 --> 00:30:18,466
Um, and oh, oh, what could have happened!

586
00:30:19,202 --> 00:30:22,292
Kevin: Hollywood was not kind
to its women back then as well.

587
00:30:22,292 --> 00:30:24,872
I, I would hate to, I would
hate to imply that she should

588
00:30:24,872 --> 00:30:26,312
have been grateful for the job.

589
00:30:26,852 --> 00:30:27,692
Not at all.

590
00:30:28,052 --> 00:30:33,992
Uh, um, but I also think that
watching season one of Star Trek,

591
00:30:34,042 --> 00:30:36,772
it pales in comparison to what
that show would go on to become.

592
00:30:37,146 --> 00:30:39,816
Rob: Exactly, and especially
like what we saw happen with,

593
00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:42,006
uh, Terry Farrell as well.

594
00:30:42,066 --> 00:30:46,026
Um, and that was someone who
was with the show for six years.

595
00:30:46,566 --> 00:30:55,196
And to be treated so poorly at contract
negotiation point, um, yes, you can only.

596
00:30:56,201 --> 00:30:59,681
I can, I can't, I can't even
imagine the challenge of going

597
00:30:59,681 --> 00:31:01,746
through that decision in your head.

598
00:31:02,412 --> 00:31:04,362
Kevin: I'm just glad that we got her back.

599
00:31:04,392 --> 00:31:07,062
Like she's still a member
of the Star Trek family.

600
00:31:07,062 --> 00:31:09,342
She, she does the conventions.

601
00:31:09,342 --> 00:31:13,932
She, she is invested in
her place in, in canon.

602
00:31:13,932 --> 00:31:17,592
It would be so easy for her to
have exited and gone seeya and,

603
00:31:17,592 --> 00:31:19,452
and never, never to look back.

604
00:31:19,482 --> 00:31:25,602
Um, so I, I'm kind of proud that Star Trek
was worth her coming back to eventually.

605
00:31:25,856 --> 00:31:27,176
Rob: Yeah, very much so.

606
00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:30,656
And like you said, Yesterday's Enterprise
is an incredible episode for her.

607
00:31:31,317 --> 00:31:32,877
Kevin: But, so let's
talk about this episode.

608
00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:39,730
Enterprise is on impulse power doing
engine repairs at the exact moment

609
00:31:39,730 --> 00:31:45,040
where Troi's shuttle goes down on
a planet, ultimately unexplained.

610
00:31:45,250 --> 00:31:48,310
I guess we are left to infer it
was just an engine malfunction and

611
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,600
bad luck that saw them crash on
that planet where the, the evil

612
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,210
oil slick creature of Armus lives.

613
00:31:55,900 --> 00:32:00,610
And, uh, a lot of the, those first 15
minutes are the Enterprise trying to get

614
00:32:00,610 --> 00:32:05,620
its engines back online so that they can
race to the rescue of the shuttle craft.

615
00:32:05,860 --> 00:32:10,420
Uh, this is during the era
where Next Gen had a different

616
00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:12,550
chief engineer every episode.

617
00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:18,130
And this engineer, this episode's
engineer is Leland T. Lynch, and he always

618
00:32:18,130 --> 00:32:20,320
identifies himself by his full name.

619
00:32:20,740 --> 00:32:24,760
Captain Picard actually rolls
his eyes when he calls down to

620
00:32:24,820 --> 00:32:28,450
engineering, saying, engineer, when
can I get my engines back online?

621
00:32:28,837 --> 00:32:34,177
Engineer Leland T. Lynch here, captain
and, and on the bridge, Picard kind of

622
00:32:34,627 --> 00:32:36,457
goes, come on, this is an emergency.

623
00:32:36,457 --> 00:32:37,717
You don't have to say your whole name.

624
00:32:38,527 --> 00:32:40,507
Uh, but they get the engines back online.

625
00:32:40,537 --> 00:32:41,347
They fly there.

626
00:32:41,407 --> 00:32:48,487
The, the landing party led by Riker
with, um, with Yar in tow beams down,

627
00:32:48,787 --> 00:32:54,517
and they're confronted by this oil slick
that identifies itself as Armus, uh,

628
00:32:54,517 --> 00:33:00,952
asks them why they're there, uh, plays
with them, and Yar has at a certain

629
00:33:00,952 --> 00:33:02,542
moment, has, has had enough of it.

630
00:33:02,572 --> 00:33:06,442
We're, we're not waiting, you can't
keep us from rescuing our crew member.

631
00:33:06,652 --> 00:33:07,492
We are going.

632
00:33:07,612 --> 00:33:11,962
And she walks forward and Armus with
the wave of a hand, sends her flying

633
00:33:11,962 --> 00:33:18,082
head over heels, and, uh, Crusher takes
her vital signs that tick down to zero.

634
00:33:18,352 --> 00:33:25,162
And she's got a red, a red kind of
splat sort of thing done on her cheek

635
00:33:25,162 --> 00:33:29,092
that is never quite explained in a
technical level, but I guess you're,

636
00:33:29,092 --> 00:33:33,802
you're like to believe that the, the
burn or something is, is that much of

637
00:33:33,802 --> 00:33:38,542
a, of a presence on her face, that it's
a sign of the severity of her injury.

638
00:33:38,602 --> 00:33:42,562
And they, they transport her up and give
her electric shocks to her brain that,

639
00:33:43,012 --> 00:33:48,412
that, uh, you know, in dramatic television
form are less and less effective on her,

640
00:33:48,472 --> 00:33:54,832
her dead body and, and, uh, Picard, Worf
and Riker are standing by in the corner

641
00:33:54,862 --> 00:33:57,232
in sickbay when she's pronounced dead.

642
00:33:57,262 --> 00:34:00,952
And, uh, Picard turns around and
all three of them cannot quite

643
00:34:00,952 --> 00:34:04,342
believe what is happening, just
as we could not in the audience.

644
00:34:07,912 --> 00:34:15,802
Uh, the rest of this episode is, I
think like if you set aside the shock

645
00:34:15,802 --> 00:34:21,562
and perhaps like dismay at, at Tasha's
fate and Tasha leaving the show, I

646
00:34:21,562 --> 00:34:23,662
actually quite like this episode.

647
00:34:24,232 --> 00:34:30,712
Um, it is in a very nineties Star Trek
sort of way, psycho-analysis as warfare

648
00:34:31,642 --> 00:34:38,602
where the, the, the slick Armus whenever
it is talking with Troi, Troi is forcing

649
00:34:38,602 --> 00:34:43,552
it to confront its feelings about being
alone and being a discarded husk of

650
00:34:43,552 --> 00:34:49,222
evil from the beautiful, benevolent
race that extracted it from themselves

651
00:34:49,222 --> 00:34:51,712
and, and marooned it on this planet.

652
00:34:52,102 --> 00:34:57,712
And when it is facing its feelings, its
its power diminishes and they have a chart

653
00:34:57,712 --> 00:35:02,482
of its power on the bridge with a line
saying if it gets below this level, if

654
00:35:02,482 --> 00:35:06,292
the, if the therapy is this effective,
we'll be able to beam up the crew.

655
00:35:06,352 --> 00:35:10,702
And, uh, Troi has a couple of very
effective conversations with him, but

656
00:35:10,702 --> 00:35:15,862
in the end, Picard beams down and has a
face-to-face with Armus where he gives

657
00:35:15,862 --> 00:35:23,227
him the tough love, uh, therapy session,
then refuses to bargain for the lives

658
00:35:23,227 --> 00:35:28,237
of his crew, uh, in a way that gets to
Armus just enough to allow the Enterprise

659
00:35:28,237 --> 00:35:31,027
to beam everyone up and, and leave.

660
00:35:31,057 --> 00:35:33,907
And then the, the last, the
last minutes of this episode

661
00:35:33,907 --> 00:35:35,497
are the memorial for Tasha Yar.

662
00:35:39,427 --> 00:35:40,867
You, you're, you're at a loss.

663
00:35:40,897 --> 00:35:43,087
You're still affected by
it all these years later,

664
00:35:43,251 --> 00:35:44,331
Rob: It's, it's real.

665
00:35:44,331 --> 00:35:48,561
It, I, I, I didn't expect it to
catch up on me because, uh, to

666
00:35:48,561 --> 00:35:50,571
have it directly talked about.

667
00:35:50,601 --> 00:35:58,521
Um, yeah, it's, it, it's, it, it, as
you said, it literally made me turn off.

668
00:35:58,611 --> 00:36:03,531
Um, and I never went back
for 30 years, but, um.

669
00:36:03,722 --> 00:36:07,087
Kevin: least affecting, like, if you
are going to burn one of your best

670
00:36:07,087 --> 00:36:12,397
characters, you better do it with a punch
that makes the audience feel something.

671
00:36:12,397 --> 00:36:15,457
And I, if nothing else, I feel
they succeeded in that here.

672
00:36:15,786 --> 00:36:20,466
Rob: Definitely, and especially
of a season that is so hard to

673
00:36:20,466 --> 00:36:25,086
get through, um, to be able to,
to, in many ways master that.

674
00:36:25,386 --> 00:36:29,976
So dealing with the essence of
evil and pure evil, it's literally

675
00:36:30,096 --> 00:36:31,716
put down to a metric measurement.

676
00:36:31,716 --> 00:36:37,326
It was extracted and it is a,
a, a tangible representation

677
00:36:37,547 --> 00:36:43,147
Kevin: Armus tells this, this vague
story, but it is very evocative of a race

678
00:36:43,147 --> 00:36:51,397
of titans who recognized in themselves
this, this, these, these elements of evil

679
00:36:51,397 --> 00:36:56,707
and evolved to the point where they were
able to force them to the surface so that

680
00:36:56,707 --> 00:36:59,497
they were a skin of evil, if you will.

681
00:36:59,647 --> 00:37:05,377
And then they shed that skin, this
entire race, they shed that black skin

682
00:37:05,377 --> 00:37:10,987
of evil and discarded it on this planet,
from which it could never escape.

683
00:37:11,017 --> 00:37:15,247
And they went off on their merry
way and are now worshiped for

684
00:37:15,247 --> 00:37:17,227
their beauty and their benevolence.

685
00:37:17,527 --> 00:37:21,037
And Armus is what is left
when a race perfects itself.

686
00:37:21,367 --> 00:37:26,677
Uh, and it's a, it's a, an amazing Star
Trek, an amazing science fiction story,

687
00:37:26,677 --> 00:37:31,597
and all of the details are left to our
imagination in an effective way, I feel

688
00:37:31,597 --> 00:37:39,382
like, um, that, that explain the the
malevolence of this creature, and to our,

689
00:37:39,442 --> 00:37:44,572
to the point of our theme, uh, allow us to
believe that there is nothing redeemable.

690
00:37:44,572 --> 00:37:49,852
Data in this episode is like
Armus prompts him to give a cold,

691
00:37:49,852 --> 00:37:51,982
rational analysis from a machine.

692
00:37:51,982 --> 00:37:54,652
And Data goes no redeeming qualities.

693
00:37:54,657 --> 00:37:57,922
And Armus says, well, what do
you think should be done with me?

694
00:37:57,922 --> 00:38:00,652
And Data goes, I think
you should be destroyed.

695
00:38:00,982 --> 00:38:02,872
And it's just really cold.

696
00:38:02,932 --> 00:38:05,212
Um, but, but affecting.

697
00:38:05,362 --> 00:38:11,482
And so for, for one episode, I think
this concept of, of pure evil as a

698
00:38:11,512 --> 00:38:20,092
substance extracted from a a a a being
that originally is a mix of these

699
00:38:20,092 --> 00:38:26,020
things in the same way that we have
good Kirk and evil Kirk in, in, uh, The

700
00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:31,870
Enemy Within back in TOS there is this
sense of, there is both in all of us.

701
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,750
Of course, The Enemy Within the
point of that episode is that you

702
00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:36,880
are incomplete in either half.

703
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:41,620
Uh, but that is not dealt with here,
that those titans are incomplete

704
00:38:41,620 --> 00:38:44,710
without Armus, but Armus is
certainly incomplete without them.

705
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:51,159
Rob: And is that a sense of, of do
you feel sorry for this skin of evil?

706
00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:56,890
Kevin: Well, our characters
all express, uh, um, sympathy.

707
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,500
Uh, Troi uses the word pity.

708
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:00,340
You have my pity.

709
00:39:00,340 --> 00:39:02,260
And then it makes Armus real angry.

710
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:09,400
Um, so yeah, our characters are good
Sartfleet characters all, uh, feel bad

711
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:16,430
for Armus, but his response to that
reinforces his, um, irredeemability.

712
00:39:16,584 --> 00:39:17,964
Rob: Of course, of course.

713
00:39:18,924 --> 00:39:19,104
Well,

714
00:39:19,225 --> 00:39:19,675
Kevin: So, yeah.

715
00:39:19,675 --> 00:39:20,365
Skin of Evil.

716
00:39:20,365 --> 00:39:20,905
There you go.

717
00:39:20,930 --> 00:39:27,145
I, I, I think if you haven't seen it and
you enjoy the Next Generation characters,

718
00:39:27,175 --> 00:39:31,795
it is worth watching just as like a
foundational document of especially what

719
00:39:31,795 --> 00:39:38,545
becomes of Data later in the series and,
and how that show started as one thing

720
00:39:38,545 --> 00:39:40,825
and became something so much more later.

721
00:39:41,034 --> 00:39:41,874
Rob: Of course, of

722
00:39:41,995 --> 00:39:44,485
Kevin: At this point, I've seen,
I've spent more hours watching

723
00:39:44,485 --> 00:39:50,035
Denise Crosby being interviewed about
Star Trek than Denise Crosby had

724
00:39:50,305 --> 00:39:52,525
as onscreen minutes in Star Trek.

725
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:57,610
And that's especially like interesting
as well, is that the, to me, the, the,

726
00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:04,960
the, uh, the meta textual or extra
textual story of Denise Crosby is larger

727
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,390
for me than Tasha Yar's own story.

728
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:11,800
And yet I still cannot watch this
episode without becoming a blubbering

729
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,510
mess in that memorial at the end.

730
00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:18,040
Um, Picard's final line is "Au
revoir, Natasha." It's one of

731
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,430
his few French lines, and he
calls her her full name Natasha.

732
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:23,050
And oh, it breaks your heart.

733
00:40:25,884 --> 00:40:27,444
Rob: Well, thank you for taking us there.

734
00:40:27,474 --> 00:40:33,894
Well, my episode, jumping ahead
to, uh, season three of, uh, TNG

735
00:40:34,074 --> 00:40:40,494
has a little reference to, um, the
importance of Tasha Yar to Data

736
00:40:40,494 --> 00:40:44,184
because Data is, uh, seemed lost.

737
00:40:44,454 --> 00:40:48,774
We believe that he has been killed
in a shuttle accident, but he has in

738
00:40:48,774 --> 00:40:52,464
fact been taken, taken by a collector.

739
00:40:52,914 --> 00:40:56,294
A collector of The Most Toys.

740
00:40:56,370 --> 00:40:56,590
Kevin: Wow.

741
00:40:56,905 --> 00:40:58,675
Is this collector your pure evil?

742
00:40:58,914 --> 00:40:59,544
Rob: Yeah.

743
00:40:59,604 --> 00:40:59,784
Yeah.

744
00:40:59,784 --> 00:41:00,474
There's been talk

745
00:41:00,835 --> 00:41:03,685
Kevin: Ooh, glass houses, Rob Lloyd.

746
00:41:03,685 --> 00:41:06,955
As I look at your, uh,
your wide collection of pop

747
00:41:06,955 --> 00:41:08,215
vinyls in the background.

748
00:41:08,454 --> 00:41:12,804
Rob: For me, this hits close to home
because yes, being a collector myself is

749
00:41:13,045 --> 00:41:14,605
Kevin: The enemy within indeed.

750
00:41:15,504 --> 00:41:18,294
Rob: How do I look upon
this reflection of myself?

751
00:41:18,294 --> 00:41:23,154
And there's been a lot of talk online
about, um, the, this collector character,

752
00:41:23,514 --> 00:41:28,314
um, having no redeeming features and
being quite a evil character and the

753
00:41:28,314 --> 00:41:30,474
lengths that he goes to to maintain his.

754
00:41:31,554 --> 00:41:36,384
Self-centered, egotistical collection
and, uh, the people he destroys along

755
00:41:36,384 --> 00:41:38,064
the way and his treatment of Data.

756
00:41:38,214 --> 00:41:44,424
So much so that Data gets to a
point where he has acted in a way

757
00:41:44,424 --> 00:41:46,944
that is out of his programming.

758
00:41:47,020 --> 00:41:48,220
Kevin: very Armus, isn't it?

759
00:41:48,220 --> 00:41:49,840
It's very, You should be destroyed.

760
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:54,490
There's not many times where Data
goes, okay, you're all zeroes to me.

761
00:41:54,864 --> 00:41:55,524
Rob: Exactly.

762
00:41:55,524 --> 00:42:00,264
And it gets to a point where he is
beamed back from safety and he lies.

763
00:42:00,264 --> 00:42:02,724
He flat out lies to Riker about going.

764
00:42:02,754 --> 00:42:07,374
Um, we sensed that, uh, this disruptor,
that his band has been discharged.

765
00:42:07,584 --> 00:42:12,264
He said, Hmm, must have been in the
teleporting, uh, malfunction system.

766
00:42:12,324 --> 00:42:13,974
And you're going, whoa Data.

767
00:42:14,544 --> 00:42:19,224
So yes, I'm looking at the most
toys, season three, episode 22.

768
00:42:19,810 --> 00:42:22,770
Kevin: With Saul Rubinek
playing Kivas Fajo.

769
00:42:22,839 --> 00:42:26,079
Rob: The brilliant Saul Rubinek,
who's been, who's been a

770
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:27,909
jobing actor for, for decades.

771
00:42:27,909 --> 00:42:30,529
He had a wonderful turn in Frasier.

772
00:42:30,759 --> 00:42:34,569
He had, he was one of the only few good
things, him and Carol Kane in, uh, the

773
00:42:34,569 --> 00:42:37,164
appalling series, he was in Hunters.

774
00:42:37,254 --> 00:42:43,164
The, uh, it was a quite a quite bad TV
series, but Saul, uh, played a married

775
00:42:43,164 --> 00:42:48,114
couple with, um, with Carol Kane, and
they were, uh, they were magic in it.

776
00:42:48,234 --> 00:42:56,664
But yes, he plays the almost comic
book villain, uh, uh, pure, almost

777
00:42:56,664 --> 00:42:58,959
maniacal evil, in this presence.

778
00:42:58,959 --> 00:43:01,959
And he's willing to sacrifice
his own people to make a point.

779
00:43:01,959 --> 00:43:08,049
And so when there's getting Data to
submit to being in his collection.

780
00:43:08,469 --> 00:43:10,419
Uh, threats don't work on Data.

781
00:43:10,419 --> 00:43:12,459
So he threatens his own people.

782
00:43:12,879 --> 00:43:16,329
Uh, we go, I will kill this person
unless you do what I'm told.

783
00:43:16,509 --> 00:43:16,809
And

784
00:43:16,870 --> 00:43:18,615
Kevin: He's a good
laughing villain, isn't he?

785
00:43:18,645 --> 00:43:22,575
Like he, he, he's not mustache
twirling because he does not

786
00:43:22,575 --> 00:43:23,955
take himself that seriously.

787
00:43:23,955 --> 00:43:25,485
He's like, yeah, no, this is my life.

788
00:43:25,974 --> 00:43:31,374
Rob: No, it is that very much
dismissive, um, uh, almost like

789
00:43:31,944 --> 00:43:35,814
mad Roman emperor type of, so like,
you know, I will do this thing.

790
00:43:35,814 --> 00:43:37,764
This is what I will have,
I will get what I want.

791
00:43:38,244 --> 00:43:40,554
Um, there's no way of escaping Ha ha.

792
00:43:40,824 --> 00:43:42,504
You put on the clothing Data.

793
00:43:42,504 --> 00:43:43,224
Put on the clothing.

794
00:43:43,254 --> 00:43:45,654
Oh, you won't put on the clothing,
you'll keep on your uniform?

795
00:43:45,804 --> 00:43:48,804
Then I will throw a, you
know, a toxic cocktail on your

796
00:43:48,804 --> 00:43:49,944
suit and it will either way.

797
00:43:50,634 --> 00:43:58,914
Um, and so that whole sense of, you know,
selfishness, self-absorbed materialism,

798
00:43:58,914 --> 00:44:04,974
capitalism taken to the extreme, viewed
from that Star Trek, utopian future

799
00:44:04,974 --> 00:44:11,334
point of view, um, and those base
elements of humanity that we've kind of

800
00:44:12,189 --> 00:44:18,309
evolved, evolved away from in Star Trek
coming, uh, to be a reflection back on

801
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:22,014
us is, uh, is, was fascinating to watch.

802
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:23,050
Kevin: Yeah.

803
00:44:24,190 --> 00:44:27,100
I haven't seen this one in a while,
but I remember it very fondly.

804
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:31,120
It's, it, it's another one of those
small character pieces, two people

805
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:36,130
in a room, and you're like, how could
that fill 45 minutes to an hour?

806
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,200
And it, it fills more than fills it.

807
00:44:38,544 --> 00:44:44,964
Rob: So, yes, it goes from, you know,
the, the intellectual sparring between

808
00:44:44,964 --> 00:44:52,224
Data and, um, and, uh, Kivas, um, the
manipulation of the situation, the use

809
00:44:52,224 --> 00:44:55,794
of m mental torture and threatening.

810
00:44:56,094 --> 00:45:00,564
Then back on the Enterprise, how
they cope with life without Data.

811
00:45:00,684 --> 00:45:05,709
They deal with Worf being moved
up to being Data's position.

812
00:45:06,009 --> 00:45:08,859
And so Worf has to
deal, talking with Troi.

813
00:45:08,859 --> 00:45:13,179
Troi's there going, you've moved forward
because two of your friends have died.

814
00:45:13,989 --> 00:45:15,639
How does that relate to you?

815
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:19,569
You've got Geordi loss of his friend
and he's the only one who believes

816
00:45:19,569 --> 00:45:20,499
that there's something wrong.

817
00:45:20,499 --> 00:45:21,939
He gets help from Wesley.

818
00:45:22,479 --> 00:45:27,579
Um, so how all this plays out into
different settings is really interesting.

819
00:45:27,579 --> 00:45:33,039
And then of course the crucial
thing is, um, Kivas' assistant who

820
00:45:33,069 --> 00:45:37,479
is used as canon fodder decides
to, let's get you out of here.

821
00:45:37,479 --> 00:45:43,989
And you see Kivas just, you know,
take her life to, uh, without any

822
00:45:43,989 --> 00:45:47,229
second thought or anything like that
is, uh, it's a horrifying moment.

823
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:52,029
And it gets to that point with a
final confrontation with he's captured

824
00:45:52,029 --> 00:46:00,519
behind bars and, um, and, uh, Data just
cold and methodical, just looking at

825
00:46:00,519 --> 00:46:05,319
this person who, you know, destroyed
so many lives and destroyed his.

826
00:46:06,295 --> 00:46:06,805
Kevin: Yeah.

827
00:46:06,805 --> 00:46:14,125
So in both of these episodes, I feel
like pure evil is, is used as a device

828
00:46:14,125 --> 00:46:16,405
to create an irredeemable villain.

829
00:46:16,405 --> 00:46:21,085
Like every, every now and then,
for plot purposes, the show

830
00:46:21,085 --> 00:46:23,245
needs an irredeemable villain.

831
00:46:23,245 --> 00:46:27,445
But in neither case, I feel
like is that treated as a

832
00:46:27,445 --> 00:46:29,635
particularly interesting thing.

833
00:46:29,665 --> 00:46:36,310
Like in Skin of Evil, the, the, I think
it's in the text where, where Armus is

834
00:46:36,310 --> 00:46:38,800
actually kind of like, aren't I special?

835
00:46:38,890 --> 00:46:43,330
Uh, is, is proud of the fact
or feels like it should be

836
00:46:43,330 --> 00:46:45,520
impressive that he is pure evil.

837
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:51,400
And, and the Starfleet crew again and
again goes, well, no, we're not gonna,

838
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,270
we are afraid of you, but that doesn't
mean we're gonna do what you say because

839
00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:59,200
that is ultimately self-defeating
and that would be a greater evil.

840
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:04,120
Um, and, and so the, the
diminishing of pure evil is

841
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,820
almost the point of Skin of Evil.

842
00:47:07,210 --> 00:47:11,590
Um, and, and again, it just takes
me back to Strange New Worlds

843
00:47:11,590 --> 00:47:16,030
going, our, our theme this season
is that there is pure evil.

844
00:47:16,030 --> 00:47:17,920
And isn't that interesting?

845
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,530
It's, I don't think it's that interesting.

846
00:47:20,799 --> 00:47:21,069
Rob: No.

847
00:47:21,069 --> 00:47:24,729
Well, there's definitely, uh, I think
irredeemable is the right word when it

848
00:47:24,729 --> 00:47:30,249
comes to, uh, Kivas because he doesn't
evolve, he doesn't change, he doesn't

849
00:47:30,249 --> 00:47:34,269
realize, you know, um, his, his faults.

850
00:47:34,359 --> 00:47:40,329
He's purely, purely a, a, a self-centered
being who only wants what he has.

851
00:47:40,569 --> 00:47:43,869
He, he lies about his
background and his past.

852
00:47:43,869 --> 00:47:48,519
He's never truthful about anything unless
it's to get something that he wants.

853
00:47:48,549 --> 00:47:50,709
He doesn't communicate.

854
00:47:50,709 --> 00:47:55,779
He only uses people to be a
part of his, you know, adventure

855
00:47:55,779 --> 00:47:58,179
for more things that he wants.

856
00:47:58,419 --> 00:48:02,979
Or he's manipulating people
to, to, to be on his side.

857
00:48:03,369 --> 00:48:06,844
There's nothing redeemable
about him, even though he's not.

858
00:48:07,119 --> 00:48:11,889
Like what they tried to set up in Strange
New Worlds is this pure evil is on a

859
00:48:11,889 --> 00:48:16,179
cosmic almost universal galactic level.

860
00:48:16,359 --> 00:48:20,109
It is the evil that
transcends all time and space.

861
00:48:20,265 --> 00:48:20,425
Kevin: Yeah.

862
00:48:20,605 --> 00:48:24,100
With so many things transcending
time and space at once in that,

863
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,300
in that finale, I, I, I feel like.

864
00:48:28,060 --> 00:48:31,570
Think I said about halfway through
this episode, boy, this is a

865
00:48:31,570 --> 00:48:33,610
lot of superhero mumbo jumbo.

866
00:48:33,849 --> 00:48:34,449
Rob: Yeah.

867
00:48:34,479 --> 00:48:40,419
But, um, especially in the most
toys, you know, Kivas, Kivas is very

868
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:42,610
Kevin: It's the mundanity of evil,

869
00:48:42,729 --> 00:48:43,419
Rob: Yes.

870
00:48:43,599 --> 00:48:47,079
And he's very much along the lines
of like a Batman comic book villain.

871
00:48:47,229 --> 00:48:50,529
He is like, you know, there's the
Joker, there's the Riddler, and he's the

872
00:48:50,529 --> 00:48:54,189
collector, I do in inverted commas, where
he does that similar thing of going,

873
00:48:54,189 --> 00:48:55,809
well, I'll just, I'll kill my assistant.

874
00:48:55,809 --> 00:48:57,609
I don't care you, you will do this for me.

875
00:48:58,060 --> 00:48:58,360
Kevin: Yeah.

876
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,610
It's not grand or grandstanding evil.

877
00:49:00,610 --> 00:49:02,620
It is matter of fact evil in that.

878
00:49:02,650 --> 00:49:04,595
That is so much more the chilling.

879
00:49:06,129 --> 00:49:11,499
Rob: Yes, very much so, and it makes
it more real as opposed to something

880
00:49:11,499 --> 00:49:15,879
we can't grab onto with pure evil from,
that was before the beginning of time,

881
00:49:16,059 --> 00:49:22,749
that encompasses an entire universe,
but appears as a disinterested actor

882
00:49:22,779 --> 00:49:25,989
with ridiculous, uh, eye costumes.

883
00:49:26,529 --> 00:49:26,919
Um.

884
00:49:27,834 --> 00:49:28,704
So, yeah, I did.

885
00:49:28,704 --> 00:49:33,834
And getting a really good actor
being allowed to play, um, uh,

886
00:49:34,224 --> 00:49:36,834
uh, and Saul is just magic here.

887
00:49:36,834 --> 00:49:40,614
And to see him play someone so
irredeemable was something I

888
00:49:40,614 --> 00:49:43,704
hadn't seen from him before,
and he did that wonderfully.

889
00:49:45,905 --> 00:49:46,705
Kevin: Yeah, that's a good one.

890
00:49:46,735 --> 00:49:50,875
Um, any, any opportunity to let Brent
Spiner stretch his legs and grow

891
00:49:50,875 --> 00:49:52,555
the character of Data is a good one.

892
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:53,095
Uh, uh, yeah.

893
00:49:53,095 --> 00:49:54,265
Well found for sure.

894
00:49:54,684 --> 00:49:58,164
Rob: That's a, yeah, that was a, a, a
fun one to discover and a, and a fun

895
00:49:58,164 --> 00:50:02,844
one to watch and to see Data pushed to
the point where he was willing to use

896
00:50:02,844 --> 00:50:10,974
an unlicensed disruptor weapon, um, to
take out someone who he had in his power.

897
00:50:10,974 --> 00:50:14,079
He had taken the weapon,
he had him under control.

898
00:50:14,079 --> 00:50:16,179
He could have just, you
know, ended it there.

899
00:50:16,179 --> 00:50:18,999
But no, he was ready
to take that next step.

900
00:50:19,179 --> 00:50:24,669
Um, and, and you see in that final
confrontation when he, when the

901
00:50:24,669 --> 00:50:29,879
collector is collected in, uh, in,
in the, um, in the security hall,

902
00:50:30,459 --> 00:50:33,939
uh, that Data is affected by this.

903
00:50:33,939 --> 00:50:36,939
And he is not, you know, even
though he doesn't feel emotions,

904
00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:40,749
he does not like the fact that
he was made to feel that way.

905
00:50:41,255 --> 00:50:41,645
Kevin: Hmm.

906
00:50:42,245 --> 00:50:47,285
Um, I'm, I'm reading some of the behind
the scenes from Memory Alpha here in

907
00:50:47,285 --> 00:50:52,715
which, uh, writer Sherry Goodhartz,
this was the first of three episodes of

908
00:50:52,715 --> 00:50:55,475
TNG that she wrote early in her career.

909
00:50:55,835 --> 00:50:58,955
She says, I asked Brent Spiner
whether he thought Data purposefully

910
00:50:58,955 --> 00:51:02,255
pulled the trigger or not, and he
was adamant that data did fire the

911
00:51:02,255 --> 00:51:04,475
weapon, which was my intent as well.

912
00:51:04,685 --> 00:51:08,405
But the powers that be wanted
that kept ambiguous, so it was.

913
00:51:08,675 --> 00:51:11,645
If I had a chance to do it over with
all the experience I have behind

914
00:51:11,645 --> 00:51:15,035
me now, I would argue passionately
for Data's actions and their

915
00:51:15,035 --> 00:51:19,235
consequences to have been clearer
and hopefully more provocative.

916
00:51:20,094 --> 00:51:23,664
Rob: It is very much of the era of what
we're talking about, episodic TV, where

917
00:51:23,664 --> 00:51:26,334
we couldn't have that arc explored.

918
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:27,640
Kevin: tarnish your characters.

919
00:51:28,210 --> 00:51:28,450
tarnish

920
00:51:29,184 --> 00:51:30,504
Rob: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

921
00:51:30,774 --> 00:51:31,984
These are the guys that
are coming back every week.

922
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:34,810
Kevin: Uh, yeah.

923
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:37,757
Uh, shuttle pod Pike, in this episode.

924
00:51:38,327 --> 00:51:43,157
Um, a couple of mentions of Tasha Yar,
Troi expresses concern to Worf that

925
00:51:43,157 --> 00:51:46,787
he's now replaced two deceased officers,
Tasha Yar being one, one of those.

926
00:51:46,801 --> 00:51:51,611
Rob: And there's a moment where, uh,
Geordi's going through, um, Data's

927
00:51:51,631 --> 00:51:53,401
stuff in his, in his quarters,

928
00:51:53,477 --> 00:51:56,777
Kevin: This must be one of the,
the founding moments of the,

929
00:51:56,837 --> 00:52:00,257
the Geordi Data bromance, I feel

930
00:52:00,346 --> 00:52:03,016
Rob: I think so, yeah, this is
definitely the starting point

931
00:52:03,016 --> 00:52:04,606
of it, uh, from what I can see.

932
00:52:04,666 --> 00:52:09,496
And so day, uh, Geordi pulls out,
the little crystal ball touches it,

933
00:52:09,556 --> 00:52:14,476
and the full, uh, image of Tasha
shows up and they both, and, and

934
00:52:14,476 --> 00:52:18,736
you've got Geordi looking at Wesley
and they both have a look of, Hmm.

935
00:52:19,322 --> 00:52:21,632
Kevin: Mm. Well, there you go.

936
00:52:21,632 --> 00:52:26,042
Skin of Evil is, is cannot be escaped
no matter how far you run, Rob.

937
00:52:27,271 --> 00:52:28,856
Rob: And I've been running for 30 years.

938
00:52:30,722 --> 00:52:33,812
Kevin: Well, that brings our
coverage of season three of

939
00:52:34,172 --> 00:52:35,997
Strange New Worlds to an end.

940
00:52:36,377 --> 00:52:42,302
We are told that the next time, if you,
if you forget, uh, Nickelodeon shows for,

941
00:52:42,332 --> 00:52:45,962
for preschoolers Scouts, Star Trek Scouts.

942
00:52:45,962 --> 00:52:50,492
I have not watched it yet, but I have
been promised phasers hitting meatballs.

943
00:52:50,552 --> 00:52:53,192
So that is the level at
which we are playing here.

944
00:52:54,272 --> 00:52:58,112
Um, I may, I may give Scouts a
watch just to say that I did.

945
00:52:58,112 --> 00:52:59,912
I, I'm told if nothing else, it is brief.

946
00:53:03,302 --> 00:53:07,982
But also going on at the moment is
Star Trek: Khan, the audio drama that,

947
00:53:08,102 --> 00:53:11,702
uh, as we record this, the second
episode dropped earlier this week.

948
00:53:11,702 --> 00:53:15,152
It's coming out on, on Mondays
for us here in Australia.

949
00:53:15,212 --> 00:53:18,392
And, uh, very well
produced, very well acted.

950
00:53:19,142 --> 00:53:22,412
Um, yeah, I, I am enjoying it quite a bit.

951
00:53:22,412 --> 00:53:26,492
I wouldn't mind bit if, if you do get
into it, Rob, I wouldn't mind, uh,

952
00:53:26,522 --> 00:53:28,442
comparing notes when we get to the end.

953
00:53:28,741 --> 00:53:31,081
Rob: Definitely we will
definitely reconvene.

954
00:53:31,081 --> 00:53:35,791
We don't have much Star Trek until
whenever uh, Starfleet Academy comes.

955
00:53:35,791 --> 00:53:40,141
So it would be nice to explore an
audio drama, which is very huge

956
00:53:40,141 --> 00:53:41,731
within the Doctor Who realms.

957
00:53:41,761 --> 00:53:46,831
Big Finish is the company that produces,
uh, all the Doctor Who audio adventures

958
00:53:46,831 --> 00:53:49,051
that have been running god 20 years now.

959
00:53:49,381 --> 00:53:53,221
Um, so I'll be very interested to pop
into the world of Star Trek with audio

960
00:53:53,522 --> 00:53:58,142
Kevin: The last Star Trek audio drama I
listened to was No Man's Land, which was

961
00:53:58,142 --> 00:54:04,292
that spinoff from Star Trek Picard, in
which, uh, Raffi and, and Seven, it was

962
00:54:04,292 --> 00:54:08,942
set in the period where they were together
and told a story of a mission that they

963
00:54:08,942 --> 00:54:11,072
led or went on, or I can't remember which.

964
00:54:11,072 --> 00:54:15,812
And it, it, um, you know, it was sold
on Audible as an audio book, but it was

965
00:54:15,812 --> 00:54:18,482
produced as a full cast audio drama.

966
00:54:18,512 --> 00:54:22,682
And my memory is, it was very
lavishly produced, but I lost

967
00:54:22,682 --> 00:54:24,602
interest in it very quickly.

968
00:54:25,022 --> 00:54:27,932
I, I kind of want to go back
and check it out again because

969
00:54:27,932 --> 00:54:29,842
I am enjoying Khan so much.

970
00:54:30,572 --> 00:54:34,262
I think what I enjoy about Khan the most,
uh, we'll we'll see if this is still

971
00:54:34,262 --> 00:54:39,032
true at the end when we compare notes, is
just the characters are so recognizable.

972
00:54:39,302 --> 00:54:43,382
This feels like the Khan
that we met in Space Seed.

973
00:54:43,817 --> 00:54:48,347
It feels like he is evolving towards
the Khan that we meet in Star Trek II,

974
00:54:49,007 --> 00:54:51,887
who are very different people in ways.

975
00:54:52,847 --> 00:54:56,747
Um, and it's satisfying to watch
the line get drawn between them.

976
00:54:57,347 --> 00:55:02,447
It is also, it feels a little
cheap in that that is a line we

977
00:55:02,447 --> 00:55:04,577
had all drawn in our heads already.

978
00:55:04,757 --> 00:55:08,897
And so there is, there's something safe
about telling a story where you know,

979
00:55:08,897 --> 00:55:12,707
the starting point and you know, the
ending point already, you just have to

980
00:55:12,917 --> 00:55:17,027
make sure you don't deviate from any
of the known facts and just justify

981
00:55:17,027 --> 00:55:18,767
everything that happened between.

982
00:55:19,037 --> 00:55:22,607
So there is a bit of that going
on, but the, the, the performances

983
00:55:22,607 --> 00:55:25,157
are strong enough that I'm,
I'm enjoying it immensely.

984
00:55:25,246 --> 00:55:27,946
Rob: So they're not fast and
loose with canon like our

985
00:55:27,946 --> 00:55:30,001
dear, uh, Strange New Worlds.

986
00:55:30,317 --> 00:55:30,767
Kevin: Not at all.

987
00:55:30,767 --> 00:55:34,487
If anything, there are, like, there
are some veiled references of, you

988
00:55:34,487 --> 00:55:39,617
know, the Ceti eel, the goes in
the, in the, in the ears, I think

989
00:55:39,617 --> 00:55:41,507
fans have long gone is that an eel?

990
00:55:41,537 --> 00:55:44,597
That's not what I would call an eel,
eel's, a slippery thing that goes in

991
00:55:44,597 --> 00:55:46,187
water that doesn't look like an eel.

992
00:55:46,457 --> 00:55:50,387
So there is a moment in this where they,
they name it an eel and someone goes,

993
00:55:50,507 --> 00:55:52,097
we'll argue about what to call it later.

994
00:55:52,607 --> 00:55:55,937
And so there are a few veiled
references to the things that did

995
00:55:55,937 --> 00:55:59,117
not make sense, um, not making sense.

996
00:55:59,477 --> 00:56:02,567
And the moment is marked
that they don't make sense.

997
00:56:02,611 --> 00:56:03,061
Rob: Well, that's clever.

998
00:56:03,301 --> 00:56:03,721
That's good.

999
00:56:03,721 --> 00:56:04,261
I like that.

1000
00:56:04,261 --> 00:56:04,891
I like that.

1001
00:56:05,491 --> 00:56:09,451
Well, I'll definitely have a listen and
we will, uh, reconvene at the end and,

1002
00:56:09,451 --> 00:56:12,301
uh, and, uh, as you say, uh, share notes.

1003
00:56:12,557 --> 00:56:12,947
Kevin: Yeah.

1004
00:56:13,097 --> 00:56:16,366
Alright, well until then, Rob,
I'll see you around the galaxy.