Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin,
Rob: and me, Rob,
Kevin: and we are here to talk about the season three finale of Star Trek:
Strange New Worlds New Life and New
Rob: New Civilizations.
Kevin: Uh, new life and new civilizations.
Well, we visited, uh, we visited a new planet,
Rob: we did.
Kevin: a civilization, this episode.
Rob: There was a, a civilization that has been come under
the influence of the Vezda.
Kevin: Mm indeed.
And they have, uh, they have, um, double pyramids in all of their cities.
Rob: They really do and they, you know, they influence their, their followers so
much that they poke out their own eyes?
Kevin: Rob, I can hear us both beating about the bush around on this episode.
What are your thoughts of this grand finale of the season?
Rob: Look, look it, it, it was, it was okay.
It was okay.
There were some moments in there that really stood out that were magic
and wonderful and it's, it's, it's amazing to watch an episode that
Kevin: There was certainly some magic in this episode, and I don't say that kindly.
Rob: Yes.
Uh, using the Asimov thing of, you know, advanced science and magic are
Kevin: They literally say, well, this might as well be magic.
Rob: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, little bit of, uh, uh, Pike had his own Inner Light moment at the end,
Kevin: So that stuff was, I think, the successful emotional core of this episode.
Rob: Very much so.
Uh, heavy lifting from Melanie Scrofano and Anson Mount.
They were on fire this
Kevin: They were on fire, not just in the big moments at the end of the
episode, but in the small moments at the start of the episode, they,
they were firing on all cylinders.
You know, you can always tell when it's a character's exit because
they are especially charismatic in the first scene of the episode.
Rob: When they're hugging each other, walking through the corridors going,
can we just have 72 hours of nothing?
I'm going,
Kevin: me to your cabin.
Rob: Yeah, I'm there going well, goodbye.
Well, that's the last we're seeing of her.
That answers the question of what happens to Batel.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, but apart from that emotional center and the performance of these
two character actors, I, I did not care for most of this episode.
Rob: I love your, I did not care for this, Robert.
Yes, there were some moments that, like all the heavy lifting they did in
the previous uh, episode, um, kind of came undone, the return of Gamble, and
he was quite ridiculous and one note.
Uh, his costume was unintentionally, ridiculous.
Kevin: Oh yeah.
Rob: The suit, the thing covering his eyes
Kevin: You are so right.
When they were walking up behind him and I'm like, well, it's Gamble.
Like, it's obviously Gamble.
Uh, but the horns were there and I didn't realize, but I, I was predisposed
to not liking what they were gonna do with him because the, because of
the, the big shoulders and the horns.
I was like, come on.
Rob: Yeah, yeah.
It, it came across as, well, this is costume.
Kevin: He was such a charismatic character when he was Gamble to
make him a non charismatic villain was, it felt like such a shame.
Rob: It was very one note.
That, especially with last episode he was in, there was a menace, there
was a, a cruelty, there was morbid glee he had and sort of like torturing
his, uh, prey before he killed them.
Kevin: And the setup of this civilization that worships them as gods is enticing.
It would've been nice to see him behave as a worship worthy god.
Like what is the charismatic version of that?
That the Starfleet can be going No, no, no.
Don't buy into it.
But you can see why they do.
But it's like, no, poke your eyes out for I'm your god.
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's some nice moments like, um, uh, M'Benga and Una acting drunk.
That was quite cute.
Um, uh, and, um, okay, well let's, let's, uh,
Kevin: There, there ends the, the cute moments.
Rob: Let's, let's, uh, let's deal with the mind meld that came earlier than,
uh, as actually the first mind meld that apparently happened in the original
series, but now they're doing another
Kevin: Yeah, I feel that ship has sailed.
Rob: Fast and loose.
Kevin: When it is introduced as a concept in, in the original
series, it is kind of like.
But so many other things have been this.
Like we were talking about Katras earlier in this series, and I was like,
how does anyone know about Katras?
I thought they were a tightly kept secret that we do not discuss with
outsiders and, and mind melds were in that same list for me, that when
they come out in the original series, there is this moment where you can tell
Spock does not want to discuss it, but the needs of the moment require it.
And here they're kind of like, well, let's go to the bar.
There's a lot of people around, but, uh, it's okay.
We'll talk Jim Kirk into it here.
Um, the fact that Jim Kirk's captain is a Vulcan who can
presumably steer her ship just fine.
Like why does it need to be, Jim Kirk is not clear at all other than the,
to, to service the fans, as it were.
Rob: And the, the actual element of a mind meld has be, uh, there's,
had a lot of weight put onto it.
So like with the Katras, sort of like this, this almost mythological
type process or what it means.
And especially with the original movies, the, the process of a mind meld could
be quite invasive and violent in a way, especially between, um, uh, Spock and
when he's torturing, uh, Kim Cattrall.
Um, no matter how distressed that Spock was, that he was doing it, um, uh, Kim
Cattrall was a lot more, uh, distressed.
Just to use it now for a gag so that now Kirk knows that Spock is with La'an and
to do a bit of a, and you're going, eh.
Kevin: Yeah.
it's hard not to smile.
Like when they were working in synchronicity and, and Pelia is like,
oh, they're moving in beautiful motion.
And, and like,
Rob: that is a flawless, that is a flawless Carol Kane impersonation.
Kevin: In a better episode, the mind meld would've bothered me more.
But for me, this is the least of its sins.
Rob: enough.
Kevin: Good science fiction, I, I like to say, invites you to believe one impossible
thing, and then explore what might be true if that one impossible thing were true.
And this episode, by my count, has at least four impossible things, and that's
even before we get to the mind meld that enables Spock and Kirk to steer their
ships at exactly the same time across some distance of the vacuum of space.
Rob: fire a phaser blast that is equal to half the power of a sun.
Kevin: Oh two batteries.
I, I love that moment.
Come on.
Scotty, still e even in an episode like this can do no wrong.
Rob: Martin Quinn is doing a wonderful job.
That's for damn sure.
Kevin: Uh, so we had the Vezda rebuild gamble's body and trigger the transporter
from inside the transporter buffer.
The line of dialogue is, Is that even possible?
And sp says, I would've said no, until now.
Until the plot of this episode
Rob: Needs it, so Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin: Uh, we know interdimensional space folds along those,
oh, what do you call 'em?
Ley lines.
As soon as they said ley lines, I groaned.
Uh, Spock looks dubious at the suggestion that ley lines are a thing.
Uh, but of course, Sam Kirk is there to, to say, literally no, they're a thing.
And then Scotty presses a couple of buttons and a map of them appears
on the tabletop just like that.
So something is, is either unbelievable to exist or there is a map of them,
but both of these things are true 10 seconds apart in the same episode.
Um, this whole thing of destiny and prophecy.
Like the last time I feel like we were laying on the trowl of destiny
this thick was Star Trek Section 31
Rob: Ah, yeah.
Kevin: when, where it, it explained away a thousand coincidences in that movie.
And in this episode, someone actually says, too many coincidences.
Can I tell you about the concept of destiny?
I think you'll find it explains everything convincingly, including
how M'Benga's life story is scrawled on this, this, uh, this piece of, of
impenetrable rock on an alien world.
Rob: And they put so much in no M'Benga needs to be down there.
He made a connection with Gamble, and as soon as his plot purpose is served,
he is literally knocked out and not seen for the rest of the episode.
Kevin: Then last, but certainly not least, the, the fundamental premise of
this episode that, um, Batel has gotten enough transfusions from other races
that she now is the sum total of all races', ability to fight Capital E, Evil.
Rob: So she's not just Gorn, she's Gorn, Human, Illyrian
Kevin: and Chimera Blossom.
Rob: And Chimera Bl— Yes.
Yes.
And I think she walked past,
Kevin: somehow those four round up to all races,
Rob: she walked past a Vulcan.
So she's got a bit of Vulcan.
Um, yes.
Um, look, that's the
Kevin: should have transformed her into a Vulcan in that Vulcan episode, so they
could have added something to that list.
Rob: Yeah.
Um, uh, yes,
Kevin: I can see what they were going for.
We have an episodic show where every episode stands alone and is
a complete story in its own right.
But here at the end of the season, we're gonna do something unexpected.
We are going to reveal that all of these episodes contributed to a
grand conclusion that you could not foresee and our characters could
not foresee, and it feels like fate.
That is not what the experience of watching this episode was, though.
This episode felt like a cheap sequel to a not very good episode earlier
in the season, and, and a couple of other, uh, things hand waved away
as, uh, improbable, improbable con coincidences we were asked to allow.
Rob: And we need to have an, an element of sacrifice because so many
of our cast are continuity impervious.
So Batel is someone who is expendable.
Um, and we need to have that element of, you know, she, we've only
Kevin: Not only expendable, but superfluous to canon because at a certain
point we have to get Pike to a place where his ideal future is to spend hi the rest
of his life in that fantasy with Vina.
Rob: With, with Melissa
Kevin: Of course.
Yes.
Rob: Never gonna forget that, Melissa George, if you are listening and I know
you do listen to our podcast, well, I will not forget that you, Melissa George, were
in season two of Discovery playing Vina.
Well done Aussie Melissa George.
Kevin: You know, Melissa George probably has fewer degrees of separation from us
than most Star Trek, uh, cast members.
And so I think we do have a shot of getting Melissa George into our audience.
Rob: Oh, if, if we could, if Melissa, if you are, if you are listening, uh,
just reach out to us, um, uh, on BlueSky and, um, let's, uh, let's organize.
You could be our first special, our second special guest on the show.
Kevin: Absolutely.
We'll, we'll find something to talk about with you.
Rob: Yes.
Um, but let's talk about the, the highlight of the episode,
Kevin: Yeah.
The, the Inner Light sequence, as it were.
Rob: Where we see Pike's, he's given the gift by Batel, really, of what his life
could have been, um, the long, fruitful, happy life, him and Marie having children.
The disaster never happens.
Um,
Kevin: The log cabin timeline.
Rob: Log cabin timeline.
Take that, Kelvin timeline.
Kevin: That's right.
Rob: Um, where we have children, where we have um, uncle Sock.
Kevin: Yes, uncle Sock.
We had the dog.
I wish we had found the dog's name.
That would've been a nice touch.
Rob: The dog was beautiful.
Kevin: We had the, the devastating scene of them sitting on the couch, and Pike
has to go on his mission that he knows goes wrong, and the, the, the heart to
heart of this, this couple with, with, uh, with a kid, and everything is perfect.
And they know that everything they have to allow everything
to, to crumble around them.
Our, our, our time, our borrowed time is up.
And, uh, the catch in his voice in that scene, tears me apart.
Um,
Rob: The moments of her every time the knock is a transition to jumping ahead.
And she keeps on saying, stay with me.
Stay with me.
Look at me.
Stay here.
Stay with me, Chris, you're going, oh my
Kevin: Yeah, it is.
It works.
Um,
Rob: Because I've been, 'cause we've been talking about a little bit worried about.
Are they gonna change canon?
They've been changing everything else.
Are they gonna find a way to get Pike out of it?
Kevin: Nah, I had faith.
I had faith.
And so as soon as they show, as soon as the first scene of this happened,
I was like, I know what they're doing.
They're showing us the happy ending we're not gonna
Rob: we're not gonna get, and he has to do it alone.
Kevin: and that is how they like, that's how they cheat canon is they,
they want to give us a happy ending.
They know they can't, so they're gonna give it to us in an alternate timeline.
It's a tale as old as time, Rob.
Rob: It is, it really is.
And in this happy timeline, Melissa George, we know
you're gonna be on the podcast
Kevin: Uh, the, the kids asking for their blessing to get married.
It really
Rob: with April's son, April's son.
He was cute and daggy and nerdy.
They were, and the daughter was gorgeous.
Lovely, lovely characters.
The two of them together going, ah,
Kevin: Great age makeup, except maybe in that very last scene, like the,
it feels like always the last scene is the one where like, we'll keep
aging you up until it looks wrong.
Oh, it looks wrong.
Uh, I guess we have to use it though 'cause we already paid for it, you know?
Rob: Yeah, and I, well, I, they thought, let's just distract them
with Anson Mount's hair some more.
Kevin: Yeah.
I mean, it's the exact same in The Inner Light is you buy the aging
of that couple until the last scene and you're like, you know what?
I'm here for it.
I, I, I forgive the makeup not working because everything else is.
Rob: Yeah.
Um, so that was devastating
Kevin: then, and then he walks to the door and opens the door and Gamble is there.
And I'm like, oh yeah, we're in this episode.
Rob: have to go back to do that.
Kevin: And just as they were so broken hearted to be pulled back into their
timeline, I was broken hearted to be pulled back into this episode.
Rob: Uh, maybe not for the same reason.
Kevin: Uh, Gamble's just staring there blank faced in that doorway.
And I'm like, wow.
You are like, you know this isn't working.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so jumping ahead when everything's resolved, I love the, just the quiet
moment of Pike and Una sitting there with a drink going, you want to talk about it
Kevin: With a needle drop.
A rare Star Trek needle
Rob: Yeah.
Playing.
Yeah, doing the usual sort of like late nineties, early naughties television
thing of a montage with music, uh, of a, of a modern hit playing.
I'm there going, Ooh.
Okay.
This reminds me of most shows I watched in the early naughties.
Kevin: Yeah.
And the, and the, uh, the apron doesn't have Chef Pike on
Rob: It doesn't have Chef Pike.
No.
And
Kevin: never will.
Rob: But the two of them sharing a drink and going, I don't wanna talk
about it now, but I will at some point.
That was, yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, final scene on the bridge where we discovered that Roger Korby's research
unveiled enough previously unvisited planets for a five year mission.
Where have I heard that before?
Um, it's, uh, it's been said in some interviews that this was like a
soft series finale just in case they weren't renewed for a fourth year.
And you can feel it.
Like the, they've, they've wrapped up Pike enough to connect the dots to the future.
They did the same with the Gorn.
Like there are no loose ends here.
There are some things we would like to have seen tied up in richer ways over
more time that felt a little like rushed together here at the end, but it really
does kind of reset the stage for them to have the next season and a half that
we have left be very much a blank slate.
Like there's not much that is on the to-do list, I feel like at this point.
Rob: I hadn't actually thought of it that way.
And that makes a lot more sense.
Like the scene with Korby and Chapel going, this isn't gonna
be easy, is it, the two of us?
Um, having Spock and Kirk have a moment, but I did like how it
ended with the Kirk brothers just
Kevin: When, uh, when, um, Sam Kirk sits down in the
foreground with his blue uniform.
Did your heart jump the way minded did?
I was like, it's a doctor.
It's a doctor.
Is it a McCoy?
And then, no, it's just stupid old Sam Kirk and his stupid mustache.
Rob: No, I was there.
Go.
Every time Kirk shows up, I'm there going, you've gotta see your brother.
Spend more time with your brother.
You don't have that much time with your brother.
Sure.
After he dies, you never mention him again, but you
need to spend time with him.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, I agree.
So, yeah, all all of that wrap up stuff, I, I'm At this point, all we've been told
about the future of this series is, is that it ends with Kirk's first day on the
job as the new captain of the Enterprise.
That is the end of Strange New Worlds, but between there, here and there.
There are no like, um, things that must be done.
It's kind of open slate.
They can do whatever they want with that gap of
Rob: all.
All we've got is information is, we've got a puppet episode at some
point in season four, and we've got, as you said, Kirk's first day.
Um.
So, yeah, we don't even have like, 'cause Pike's accident doesn't
happen until after first day.
Kevin: That's right.
And, uh, yeah, I, I mean there's more how did Boyce get on the ship.
We have, we have the, you know, the bartender doctor before McCoy.
We have yet to meet that person.
So it'd be nice to meet Dr. Boyce.
But, uh, apart from that, yeah, there's, there's not a whole lot, uh, here, uh,
which I kind of like because like they're, they're out of, uh, pull at the thread
of canon tricks and they need, they need to again do my favorite thing, which
is tell some character stories, I hope.
Rob: Yeah, me too.
Me too.
Kevin: Or, you know, they could invent another Klingon war.
Who knows?
Rob: They could.
They really could.
Or they could bring in the Jen Hadar like a couple of decades or centuries before.
Kevin: The cast has been on record of saying like, next year is their strongest,
like, I guess, what else would they say?
But there's been a few things of, if you, if you liked this season,
wait till you see next season.
Uh uh
Rob: What does that mean for, what does that mean for us?
Who went, eh.
Kevin: Yeah.
I mean, if you liked, I'm reading it optimistically as if you liked
the, the high points of this season, the next season has higher highs.
That's what I'm hoping for.
Rob: Yeah, me too.
Me too.
You know, I want it to go back to be the show that what I've loved about it
for the first two years, and there are elements of season three that I went,
this is why I fell in love with it.
Um, you know, all those, all those years ago, but two seasons ago,
Kevin: Mm-hmm.
Rob: And I got excited about it during season two of Discovery
when I went, I want more of that.
I don't want to stay on Discovery.
I want to go over there.
Kevin: Yes.
Um, but, uh, I, I almost forgot again, Rob, we have a topic to cover, as
we always do here on Subspace Radio.
We are going to talk about pure evil.
They've been asking for us to do it.
Rob: With a capital P and a capital E, Pure Eeeeevilll.
Kevin: I'll just adjust my show notes to make sure that
that E is capitalized properly.
Rob: Please.
Yes.
No lowercase.
Otherwise, that would be true evil.
Kevin: They've been beating about this bush with the
Gorn and then with the Vezda.
This, this idea that there is the evil behind all evils, the
evil that begets all evils.
They are not an evil race, they are evil itself.
You know, the, all of these things, um.
I can't tell if they are genuine in their fascination with this as a concept or if
it is just a device for, well, if we set this race up as completely evil, then
our heroes are justified in whatever measures they take to defeat them.
Rob: Yes.
The whole concept of pure evil within the Star Trek universe is always, it
always sits kind of uncomfortably because with, in other big franchises, you look
at, say Star Wars, you have pure and utter evil with no redeeming features.
When it comes to, say, the Sith and definitely the Emperor.
Um, you have a redemption arc for, um, you know, Darth Vader of course, but his
influence that is a facet of pure evil.
You look at even Doctor Who, one of the most famous speeches from the, uh,
the second doctor, which was sort of like the defining moment of Patrick
Troughton's version as the Doctor.
And he went on to be incredible.
He has a speech where he goes, there are some, you know, there
is evil out there in the universe that, you know, must be fought.
So, but with Star Trek, it is all about how we relate.
How we are going out.
And it's not a, it's not a war show, even though they used elements of,
you know, uh, military, especially within from Star Trek II onwards.
Um, but it's, it sits uncomfortably with me because
it's always a case of No, no, no.
It's what we find out about these races.
Kevin: Again and again, we start from a place of they're pure evil,
and then we come to understand the other and humanize them, if you
Rob: Like, yeah, for me, like I always haven't liked them going back
into this prequel era of Star Trek where the Klingons are the bad guys.
Uh, 'cause I had so much fun with Deep Space Nine, where we get to the
point where the, the Federation is in alliance with the Klingons and how
these two races, they may not understand each other completely, but there is a
respect there and they, you know that, that I'm going, that's pure Star Trek
where you get to the point where our baddies are now in many ways, allies.
Kevin: So, yeah, we, we have gone back and, and looked at other times that Star
Trek pulled on the, you know, flipped the switch of pure evil and, and use it
however temporarily as, uh, a plot device.
Um, I've got a TNG for you, Rob.
Rob: I have a TNG episode too.
Kevin: Does it have evil in the title, Rob?
Rob: It does not have evil in the title.
Kevin: All right, well I'm gonna go first 'cause this is a season one it
is the episode that must be faced, Rob is the episode that famously
caused you to stop watching Star Trek.
It is season one, episode 23, Skin
Rob: Of Evil.
That's a very Doctor Who title it is a very.
Doctor Who is very much has the something of evil, the face of of horror.
The Oh yeah.
It's, it's a, it's a very much Doctor Who title.
Kevin: Have you ever gone back to watch this episode since it
made you stop watching Star Trek?
Rob: W when I was trying to pick an episode to watch for this, I did
land on, from what I could remember, there's not much redeeming in the
way of the puddle of oo uh, yes.
But no, I did, I, I, I, I was tempted.
But then I found this other episode that I will look forward to talking about.
But yes, you have gone and revisited it
Kevin: I have rewatched it.
I, I laughed, I cried.
I, I, I felt the loss of Tasha Yar all over again.
Rob: She drops really early as
Kevin: She drops her like 15 minutes into this episode, Tasha Yar is dead.
Rob: 15.
Wow.
That's, yeah.
Kevin: But just like I said, she is extremely charismatic
for those first 15 minutes.
Rob: Denise Crosby's amazing.
I really love Denise Crosby.
Oh, if she stayed, oh, if she could have stayed.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, right at the end of the season, the second last episode of the season, I
believe, if not close to it, um, famous like famously Denise Crosby was unhappy
that her character was not getting meaty stories told about her, and
asked to be released from her contract here at the end of the first season.
So, um, this was the exit they wrote for her, her, and it is, it
is a divisive episode for sure.
You wanna re refresh us on your perspective on this episode and,
and what it did to your appreciation of Star Trek at the time?
Rob: Um, yeah, I know it was very shocking.
It was like, you, you, even at that age, I was aware of, even though it
wasn't called, you know, the red shirt problem, but I was kind of aware of,
you know, the people who went on the away mission were the expendable ones.
And I'd grown so attached 'cause there was something so unique about Tasha Yar
being head of security, being a woman, um, you know, a survivor of the rape gangs.
Uh, if you didn't know, uh, she only mentioned it every 17 seconds.
Um, um, but to have this happen, like literally the character
of, you know what I love about this new version of Star Trek?
It's her.
I'm, I'm all in.
I have, you know,
Kevin: She was your favorite character.
Rob: Yeah.
She was my favorite character.
This is, this is me.
I am like 11, 11, 12 years.
Yeah.
11-year-old Robbie.
I'm going, okay.
I'm all in now.
I'm in, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna follow this character for the next seven years.
Great.
And in, yeah, not even near the end of the episode.
In a gallant event, literally 15 minutes in, in one of the most
pointless but shocking moments.
And I've just gone,
um.
I was watching the episode, remember going, they've gotta get her back.
Okay.
There's gonna be a twist at the end.
They can't, this is my character and that, and then they're going through the funeral
going, okay, you're really convincing me that this is, this is good, this is great.
And then the episode ends.
I'm going, no.
Kevin: No.
Rob: I'm done.
I am out.
I will never step back into this show unless you're a
movie with Malcolm McDowell.
Kevin: Yeah.
Wow.
Um, still from the era where Star Trek was filmed out of order.
So Denise Crosby actually had more days at work on the set of Star Trek, The Next
Generation after this episode was shot.
There is a, a famous shot, uh, leaving the cargo bay in, in another episode
where she stands in the background and waves because it's her last shot
on camera, uh, in the, in the series, um, in a completely different episode.
But, uh, yeah, n nevertheless, this for us at the time was the end of poor Tasha Yar.
Rob: For some reason I thought it was earlier, like it was like a halfway point.
I didn't realize it was so near the end of the, of the
Kevin: I would've said the same.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, my memory is we had her for much less than a season, but maybe, maybe
that's part of the problem, isn't it, Rob, that she felt like she was barely present
in the, in the season of this show?
Rob: Yeah.
And more credit to her to just go, no.
Kevin: I, don't think I've actually heard her say so, but
I wonder if she regrets leaving.
Like, she, she certainly talks about when she was invited back for Yesterday's
Enterprise and then after that, when she pitched the character story that
led to Sela that she, she, at that time saw Star Trek was treating its
characters better and was something she wanted to be a part of again.
And Yesterday's Enterprise was the thing, she was like, why, where were
these scripts when I was on this show?
Um, but I wonder if in hindsight she feels like she made the wrong call
exiting back then in season one.
It's a pretty sweet gig if you're up for the grind of a weekly television show.
Uh, you can't do much better for your career than, than Star Trek,
The Next Generation for seven years.
Rob: And especially, you know, um, Marina Sirtis and, even though
Gates McFadden left and then came back, they had to, they did a lot
of heavy lifting with a lot less.
Um, but, uh, Denise Crosby is such an immaculate professional, uh, her,
her diplomatic answers is always, you can read what she's saying.
She never says it out publicly.
Um, but she's very.
You know, clear with that about, you know, she wished she'd, you
know, thought differently, um, and made a different choice.
Um, and oh, oh, what could have happened!
Kevin: Hollywood was not kind to its women back then as well.
I, I would hate to, I would hate to imply that she should
have been grateful for the job.
Not at all.
Uh, um, but I also think that watching season one of Star Trek,
it pales in comparison to what that show would go on to become.
Rob: Exactly, and especially like what we saw happen with,
uh, Terry Farrell as well.
Um, and that was someone who was with the show for six years.
And to be treated so poorly at contract negotiation point, um, yes, you can only.
I can, I can't, I can't even imagine the challenge of going
through that decision in your head.
Kevin: I'm just glad that we got her back.
Like she's still a member of the Star Trek family.
She, she does the conventions.
She, she is invested in her place in, in canon.
It would be so easy for her to have exited and gone seeya and,
and never, never to look back.
Um, so I, I'm kind of proud that Star Trek was worth her coming back to eventually.
Rob: Yeah, very much so.
And like you said, Yesterday's Enterprise is an incredible episode for her.
Kevin: But, so let's talk about this episode.
Enterprise is on impulse power doing engine repairs at the exact moment
where Troi's shuttle goes down on a planet, ultimately unexplained.
I guess we are left to infer it was just an engine malfunction and
bad luck that saw them crash on that planet where the, the evil
oil slick creature of Armus lives.
And, uh, a lot of the, those first 15 minutes are the Enterprise trying to get
its engines back online so that they can race to the rescue of the shuttle craft.
Uh, this is during the era where Next Gen had a different
chief engineer every episode.
And this engineer, this episode's engineer is Leland T. Lynch, and he always
identifies himself by his full name.
Captain Picard actually rolls his eyes when he calls down to
engineering, saying, engineer, when can I get my engines back online?
Engineer Leland T. Lynch here, captain and, and on the bridge, Picard kind of
goes, come on, this is an emergency.
You don't have to say your whole name.
Uh, but they get the engines back online.
They fly there.
The, the landing party led by Riker with, um, with Yar in tow beams down,
and they're confronted by this oil slick that identifies itself as Armus, uh,
asks them why they're there, uh, plays with them, and Yar has at a certain
moment, has, has had enough of it.
We're, we're not waiting, you can't keep us from rescuing our crew member.
We are going.
And she walks forward and Armus with the wave of a hand, sends her flying
head over heels, and, uh, Crusher takes her vital signs that tick down to zero.
And she's got a red, a red kind of splat sort of thing done on her cheek
that is never quite explained in a technical level, but I guess you're,
you're like to believe that the, the burn or something is, is that much of
a, of a presence on her face, that it's a sign of the severity of her injury.
And they, they transport her up and give her electric shocks to her brain that,
that, uh, you know, in dramatic television form are less and less effective on her,
her dead body and, and, uh, Picard, Worf and Riker are standing by in the corner
in sickbay when she's pronounced dead.
And, uh, Picard turns around and all three of them cannot quite
believe what is happening, just as we could not in the audience.
Uh, the rest of this episode is, I think like if you set aside the shock
and perhaps like dismay at, at Tasha's fate and Tasha leaving the show, I
actually quite like this episode.
Um, it is in a very nineties Star Trek sort of way, psycho-analysis as warfare
where the, the, the slick Armus whenever it is talking with Troi, Troi is forcing
it to confront its feelings about being alone and being a discarded husk of
evil from the beautiful, benevolent race that extracted it from themselves
and, and marooned it on this planet.
And when it is facing its feelings, its its power diminishes and they have a chart
of its power on the bridge with a line saying if it gets below this level, if
the, if the therapy is this effective, we'll be able to beam up the crew.
And, uh, Troi has a couple of very effective conversations with him, but
in the end, Picard beams down and has a face-to-face with Armus where he gives
him the tough love, uh, therapy session, then refuses to bargain for the lives
of his crew, uh, in a way that gets to Armus just enough to allow the Enterprise
to beam everyone up and, and leave.
And then the, the last, the last minutes of this episode
are the memorial for Tasha Yar.
You, you're, you're at a loss.
You're still affected by it all these years later,
Rob: It's, it's real.
It, I, I, I didn't expect it to catch up on me because, uh, to
have it directly talked about.
Um, yeah, it's, it, it's, it, it, as you said, it literally made me turn off.
Um, and I never went back for 30 years, but, um.
Kevin: least affecting, like, if you are going to burn one of your best
characters, you better do it with a punch that makes the audience feel something.
And I, if nothing else, I feel they succeeded in that here.
Rob: Definitely, and especially of a season that is so hard to
get through, um, to be able to, to, in many ways master that.
So dealing with the essence of evil and pure evil, it's literally
put down to a metric measurement.
It was extracted and it is a, a, a tangible representation
Kevin: Armus tells this, this vague story, but it is very evocative of a race
of titans who recognized in themselves this, this, these, these elements of evil
and evolved to the point where they were able to force them to the surface so that
they were a skin of evil, if you will.
And then they shed that skin, this entire race, they shed that black skin
of evil and discarded it on this planet, from which it could never escape.
And they went off on their merry way and are now worshiped for
their beauty and their benevolence.
And Armus is what is left when a race perfects itself.
Uh, and it's a, it's a, an amazing Star Trek, an amazing science fiction story,
and all of the details are left to our imagination in an effective way, I feel
like, um, that, that explain the the malevolence of this creature, and to our,
to the point of our theme, uh, allow us to believe that there is nothing redeemable.
Data in this episode is like Armus prompts him to give a cold,
rational analysis from a machine.
And Data goes no redeeming qualities.
And Armus says, well, what do you think should be done with me?
And Data goes, I think you should be destroyed.
And it's just really cold.
Um, but, but affecting.
And so for, for one episode, I think this concept of, of pure evil as a
substance extracted from a a a a being that originally is a mix of these
things in the same way that we have good Kirk and evil Kirk in, in, uh, The
Enemy Within back in TOS there is this sense of, there is both in all of us.
Of course, The Enemy Within the point of that episode is that you
are incomplete in either half.
Uh, but that is not dealt with here, that those titans are incomplete
without Armus, but Armus is certainly incomplete without them.
Rob: And is that a sense of, of do you feel sorry for this skin of evil?
Kevin: Well, our characters all express, uh, um, sympathy.
Uh, Troi uses the word pity.
You have my pity.
And then it makes Armus real angry.
Um, so yeah, our characters are good Sartfleet characters all, uh, feel bad
for Armus, but his response to that reinforces his, um, irredeemability.
Rob: Of course, of course.
Well,
Kevin: So, yeah.
Skin of Evil.
There you go.
I, I, I think if you haven't seen it and you enjoy the Next Generation characters,
it is worth watching just as like a foundational document of especially what
becomes of Data later in the series and, and how that show started as one thing
and became something so much more later.
Rob: Of course, of
Kevin: At this point, I've seen, I've spent more hours watching
Denise Crosby being interviewed about Star Trek than Denise Crosby had
as onscreen minutes in Star Trek.
And that's especially like interesting as well, is that the, to me, the, the,
the, uh, the meta textual or extra textual story of Denise Crosby is larger
for me than Tasha Yar's own story.
And yet I still cannot watch this episode without becoming a blubbering
mess in that memorial at the end.
Um, Picard's final line is "Au revoir, Natasha." It's one of
his few French lines, and he calls her her full name Natasha.
And oh, it breaks your heart.
Rob: Well, thank you for taking us there.
Well, my episode, jumping ahead to, uh, season three of, uh, TNG
has a little reference to, um, the importance of Tasha Yar to Data
because Data is, uh, seemed lost.
We believe that he has been killed in a shuttle accident, but he has in
fact been taken, taken by a collector.
A collector of The Most Toys.
Kevin: Wow.
Is this collector your pure evil?
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
There's been talk
Kevin: Ooh, glass houses, Rob Lloyd.
As I look at your, uh, your wide collection of pop
vinyls in the background.
Rob: For me, this hits close to home because yes, being a collector myself is
Kevin: The enemy within indeed.
Rob: How do I look upon this reflection of myself?
And there's been a lot of talk online about, um, the, this collector character,
um, having no redeeming features and being quite a evil character and the
lengths that he goes to to maintain his.
Self-centered, egotistical collection and, uh, the people he destroys along
the way and his treatment of Data.
So much so that Data gets to a point where he has acted in a way
that is out of his programming.
Kevin: very Armus, isn't it?
It's very, You should be destroyed.
There's not many times where Data goes, okay, you're all zeroes to me.
Rob: Exactly.
And it gets to a point where he is beamed back from safety and he lies.
He flat out lies to Riker about going.
Um, we sensed that, uh, this disruptor, that his band has been discharged.
He said, Hmm, must have been in the teleporting, uh, malfunction system.
And you're going, whoa Data.
So yes, I'm looking at the most toys, season three, episode 22.
Kevin: With Saul Rubinek playing Kivas Fajo.
Rob: The brilliant Saul Rubinek, who's been, who's been a
jobing actor for, for decades.
He had a wonderful turn in Frasier.
He had, he was one of the only few good things, him and Carol Kane in, uh, the
appalling series, he was in Hunters.
The, uh, it was a quite a quite bad TV series, but Saul, uh, played a married
couple with, um, with Carol Kane, and they were, uh, they were magic in it.
But yes, he plays the almost comic book villain, uh, uh, pure, almost
maniacal evil, in this presence.
And he's willing to sacrifice his own people to make a point.
And so when there's getting Data to submit to being in his collection.
Uh, threats don't work on Data.
So he threatens his own people.
Uh, we go, I will kill this person unless you do what I'm told.
And
Kevin: He's a good laughing villain, isn't he?
Like he, he, he's not mustache twirling because he does not
take himself that seriously.
He's like, yeah, no, this is my life.
Rob: No, it is that very much dismissive, um, uh, almost like
mad Roman emperor type of, so like, you know, I will do this thing.
This is what I will have, I will get what I want.
Um, there's no way of escaping Ha ha.
You put on the clothing Data.
Put on the clothing.
Oh, you won't put on the clothing, you'll keep on your uniform?
Then I will throw a, you know, a toxic cocktail on your
suit and it will either way.
Um, and so that whole sense of, you know, selfishness, self-absorbed materialism,
capitalism taken to the extreme, viewed from that Star Trek, utopian future
point of view, um, and those base elements of humanity that we've kind of
evolved, evolved away from in Star Trek coming, uh, to be a reflection back on
us is, uh, is, was fascinating to watch.
Kevin: Yeah.
I haven't seen this one in a while, but I remember it very fondly.
It's, it, it's another one of those small character pieces, two people
in a room, and you're like, how could that fill 45 minutes to an hour?
And it, it fills more than fills it.
Rob: So, yes, it goes from, you know, the, the intellectual sparring between
Data and, um, and, uh, Kivas, um, the manipulation of the situation, the use
of m mental torture and threatening.
Then back on the Enterprise, how they cope with life without Data.
They deal with Worf being moved up to being Data's position.
And so Worf has to deal, talking with Troi.
Troi's there going, you've moved forward because two of your friends have died.
How does that relate to you?
You've got Geordi loss of his friend and he's the only one who believes
that there's something wrong.
He gets help from Wesley.
Um, so how all this plays out into different settings is really interesting.
And then of course the crucial thing is, um, Kivas' assistant who
is used as canon fodder decides to, let's get you out of here.
And you see Kivas just, you know, take her life to, uh, without any
second thought or anything like that is, uh, it's a horrifying moment.
And it gets to that point with a final confrontation with he's captured
behind bars and, um, and, uh, Data just cold and methodical, just looking at
this person who, you know, destroyed so many lives and destroyed his.
Kevin: Yeah.
So in both of these episodes, I feel like pure evil is, is used as a device
to create an irredeemable villain.
Like every, every now and then, for plot purposes, the show
needs an irredeemable villain.
But in neither case, I feel like is that treated as a
particularly interesting thing.
Like in Skin of Evil, the, the, I think it's in the text where, where Armus is
actually kind of like, aren't I special?
Uh, is, is proud of the fact or feels like it should be
impressive that he is pure evil.
And, and the Starfleet crew again and again goes, well, no, we're not gonna,
we are afraid of you, but that doesn't mean we're gonna do what you say because
that is ultimately self-defeating and that would be a greater evil.
Um, and, and so the, the diminishing of pure evil is
almost the point of Skin of Evil.
Um, and, and again, it just takes me back to Strange New Worlds
going, our, our theme this season is that there is pure evil.
And isn't that interesting?
It's, I don't think it's that interesting.
Rob: No.
Well, there's definitely, uh, I think irredeemable is the right word when it
comes to, uh, Kivas because he doesn't evolve, he doesn't change, he doesn't
realize, you know, um, his, his faults.
He's purely, purely a, a, a self-centered being who only wants what he has.
He, he lies about his background and his past.
He's never truthful about anything unless it's to get something that he wants.
He doesn't communicate.
He only uses people to be a part of his, you know, adventure
for more things that he wants.
Or he's manipulating people to, to, to be on his side.
There's nothing redeemable about him, even though he's not.
Like what they tried to set up in Strange New Worlds is this pure evil is on a
cosmic almost universal galactic level.
It is the evil that transcends all time and space.
Kevin: Yeah.
With so many things transcending time and space at once in that,
in that finale, I, I, I feel like.
Think I said about halfway through this episode, boy, this is a
lot of superhero mumbo jumbo.
Rob: Yeah.
But, um, especially in the most toys, you know, Kivas, Kivas is very
Kevin: It's the mundanity of evil,
Rob: Yes.
And he's very much along the lines of like a Batman comic book villain.
He is like, you know, there's the Joker, there's the Riddler, and he's the
collector, I do in inverted commas, where he does that similar thing of going,
well, I'll just, I'll kill my assistant.
I don't care you, you will do this for me.
Kevin: Yeah.
It's not grand or grandstanding evil.
It is matter of fact evil in that.
That is so much more the chilling.
Rob: Yes, very much so, and it makes it more real as opposed to something
we can't grab onto with pure evil from, that was before the beginning of time,
that encompasses an entire universe, but appears as a disinterested actor
with ridiculous, uh, eye costumes.
Um.
So, yeah, I did.
And getting a really good actor being allowed to play, um, uh,
uh, and Saul is just magic here.
And to see him play someone so irredeemable was something I
hadn't seen from him before, and he did that wonderfully.
Kevin: Yeah, that's a good one.
Um, any, any opportunity to let Brent Spiner stretch his legs and grow
the character of Data is a good one.
Uh, uh, yeah.
Well found for sure.
Rob: That's a, yeah, that was a, a, a fun one to discover and a, and a fun
one to watch and to see Data pushed to the point where he was willing to use
an unlicensed disruptor weapon, um, to take out someone who he had in his power.
He had taken the weapon, he had him under control.
He could have just, you know, ended it there.
But no, he was ready to take that next step.
Um, and, and you see in that final confrontation when he, when the
collector is collected in, uh, in, in the, um, in the security hall,
uh, that Data is affected by this.
And he is not, you know, even though he doesn't feel emotions,
he does not like the fact that he was made to feel that way.
Kevin: Hmm.
Um, I'm, I'm reading some of the behind the scenes from Memory Alpha here in
which, uh, writer Sherry Goodhartz, this was the first of three episodes of
TNG that she wrote early in her career.
She says, I asked Brent Spiner whether he thought Data purposefully
pulled the trigger or not, and he was adamant that data did fire the
weapon, which was my intent as well.
But the powers that be wanted that kept ambiguous, so it was.
If I had a chance to do it over with all the experience I have behind
me now, I would argue passionately for Data's actions and their
consequences to have been clearer and hopefully more provocative.
Rob: It is very much of the era of what we're talking about, episodic TV, where
we couldn't have that arc explored.
Kevin: tarnish your characters.
tarnish
Rob: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
These are the guys that are coming back every week.
Kevin: Uh, yeah.
Uh, shuttle pod Pike, in this episode.
Um, a couple of mentions of Tasha Yar, Troi expresses concern to Worf that
he's now replaced two deceased officers, Tasha Yar being one, one of those.
Rob: And there's a moment where, uh, Geordi's going through, um, Data's
stuff in his, in his quarters,
Kevin: This must be one of the, the founding moments of the,
the Geordi Data bromance, I feel
Rob: I think so, yeah, this is definitely the starting point
of it, uh, from what I can see.
And so day, uh, Geordi pulls out, the little crystal ball touches it,
and the full, uh, image of Tasha shows up and they both, and, and
you've got Geordi looking at Wesley and they both have a look of, Hmm.
Kevin: Mm. Well, there you go.
Skin of Evil is, is cannot be escaped no matter how far you run, Rob.
Rob: And I've been running for 30 years.
Kevin: Well, that brings our coverage of season three of
Strange New Worlds to an end.
We are told that the next time, if you, if you forget, uh, Nickelodeon shows for,
for preschoolers Scouts, Star Trek Scouts.
I have not watched it yet, but I have been promised phasers hitting meatballs.
So that is the level at which we are playing here.
Um, I may, I may give Scouts a watch just to say that I did.
I, I'm told if nothing else, it is brief.
But also going on at the moment is Star Trek: Khan, the audio drama that,
uh, as we record this, the second episode dropped earlier this week.
It's coming out on, on Mondays for us here in Australia.
And, uh, very well produced, very well acted.
Um, yeah, I, I am enjoying it quite a bit.
I wouldn't mind bit if, if you do get into it, Rob, I wouldn't mind, uh,
comparing notes when we get to the end.
Rob: Definitely we will definitely reconvene.
We don't have much Star Trek until whenever uh, Starfleet Academy comes.
So it would be nice to explore an audio drama, which is very huge
within the Doctor Who realms.
Big Finish is the company that produces, uh, all the Doctor Who audio adventures
that have been running god 20 years now.
Um, so I'll be very interested to pop into the world of Star Trek with audio
Kevin: The last Star Trek audio drama I listened to was No Man's Land, which was
that spinoff from Star Trek Picard, in which, uh, Raffi and, and Seven, it was
set in the period where they were together and told a story of a mission that they
led or went on, or I can't remember which.
And it, it, um, you know, it was sold on Audible as an audio book, but it was
produced as a full cast audio drama.
And my memory is, it was very lavishly produced, but I lost
interest in it very quickly.
I, I kind of want to go back and check it out again because
I am enjoying Khan so much.
I think what I enjoy about Khan the most, uh, we'll we'll see if this is still
true at the end when we compare notes, is just the characters are so recognizable.
This feels like the Khan that we met in Space Seed.
It feels like he is evolving towards the Khan that we meet in Star Trek II,
who are very different people in ways.
Um, and it's satisfying to watch the line get drawn between them.
It is also, it feels a little cheap in that that is a line we
had all drawn in our heads already.
And so there is, there's something safe about telling a story where you know,
the starting point and you know, the ending point already, you just have to
make sure you don't deviate from any of the known facts and just justify
everything that happened between.
So there is a bit of that going on, but the, the, the performances
are strong enough that I'm, I'm enjoying it immensely.
Rob: So they're not fast and loose with canon like our
dear, uh, Strange New Worlds.
Kevin: Not at all.
If anything, there are, like, there are some veiled references of, you
know, the Ceti eel, the goes in the, in the, in the ears, I think
fans have long gone is that an eel?
That's not what I would call an eel, eel's, a slippery thing that goes in
water that doesn't look like an eel.
So there is a moment in this where they, they name it an eel and someone goes,
we'll argue about what to call it later.
And so there are a few veiled references to the things that did
not make sense, um, not making sense.
And the moment is marked that they don't make sense.
Rob: Well, that's clever.
That's good.
I like that.
Well, I'll definitely have a listen and we will, uh, reconvene at the end and,
uh, and, uh, as you say, uh, share notes.
Kevin: Yeah.
Alright, well until then, Rob, I'll see you around the galaxy.