1 00:00:00,573 --> 00:00:06,353 Hello everyone and welcome to the second episode of the Vernon Richard show. 2 00:00:06,353 --> 00:00:07,043 Richard show. 3 00:00:07,043 --> 00:00:09,153 Oh, I'm going to get that right one day. 4 00:00:09,973 --> 00:00:11,607 Hello everyone, my name's Richard. 5 00:00:12,671 --> 00:00:14,043 I'm Vernon. 6 00:00:14,537 --> 00:00:17,517 If you've not listened to the first episode, it was called the smoke test. 7 00:00:17,517 --> 00:00:21,857 So the fact you're listening to the second one, that smoke test may have passed. 8 00:00:23,777 --> 00:00:26,377 Or we're still recording and we've not put it live yet. 9 00:00:26,377 --> 00:00:27,297 Who knows? 10 00:00:27,297 --> 00:00:30,937 But yeah, we'll find out whenever you're listening to this. 11 00:00:31,317 --> 00:00:36,797 So Vernon, me and you got the chance to catch up face to face. 12 00:00:37,037 --> 00:00:39,607 Was it last week, week before at Peerscon? 13 00:00:40,149 --> 00:00:42,389 Holy hell, when was it? 14 00:00:42,689 --> 00:00:44,169 I remember. 15 00:00:45,209 --> 00:00:45,797 Yeah. 16 00:00:45,797 --> 00:00:52,407 but yeah so PeersCons was the first it was the inaugural PeersCons a conference put 17 00:00:52,407 --> 00:00:58,085 on by the testing Peers and yeah it was how was it for you Vern? 18 00:00:59,061 --> 00:01:01,581 I thought it was absolutely fantastic. 19 00:01:01,581 --> 00:01:07,421 It was really the fact that it was the first one, the fact that it was the, as 20 00:01:07,421 --> 00:01:12,641 you say, inaugural, I can't say inaugural test. 21 00:01:13,401 --> 00:01:19,651 The inaugural PeersCon 2024 conference, just ridiculous. 22 00:01:19,651 --> 00:01:22,081 Like it was their first, it was their first conference. 23 00:01:22,081 --> 00:01:25,801 There were 150 people there, two tracks. 24 00:01:26,241 --> 00:01:28,949 The standard of the talks was ridiculous. 25 00:01:29,109 --> 00:01:32,809 I didn't get to the other track because I had, because I was volunteering and I had 26 00:01:32,809 --> 00:01:35,429 to stay in the main room. 27 00:01:35,489 --> 00:01:38,789 You know, it was, it was crazy. 28 00:01:38,789 --> 00:01:42,449 The, you know, the fact that they could do it for that, for that price on the ticket, 29 00:01:42,449 --> 00:01:46,689 I think was also completely bonkers. 30 00:01:46,689 --> 00:01:47,769 So yeah, really well done. 31 00:01:47,769 --> 00:01:49,529 They should be really proud of themselves. 32 00:01:49,709 --> 00:01:51,065 Really proud of them. 33 00:01:51,065 --> 00:01:58,185 I think the indie punk roots as it was being spoken about, I think they smashed 34 00:01:58,185 --> 00:01:58,765 it. 35 00:01:58,765 --> 00:02:00,245 It was honest. 36 00:02:00,465 --> 00:02:03,405 It was no frills, but they said it was going to be that way, right? 37 00:02:03,405 --> 00:02:07,273 They were like, we just want to get the peers in the room. 38 00:02:07,347 --> 00:02:08,265 Mm -hmm. 39 00:02:08,265 --> 00:02:09,225 just see what happens. 40 00:02:09,225 --> 00:02:11,875 And I thought they did a really stellar job and they said they're going to do it 41 00:02:11,875 --> 00:02:12,705 again. 42 00:02:12,805 --> 00:02:16,885 So we're going to chat about the talks and topics and conversations we had at 43 00:02:16,885 --> 00:02:17,765 Pearscom. 44 00:02:17,765 --> 00:02:22,015 So if you're enjoying that, make sure you will put links in the, we need to get used 45 00:02:22,015 --> 00:02:22,555 to this, don't we? 46 00:02:22,555 --> 00:02:25,925 We'll put links in the description somewhere there. 47 00:02:25,925 --> 00:02:28,705 And yeah, you can, you can check out them. 48 00:02:28,705 --> 00:02:32,105 They've got a great podcast, which they do, I think every couple of weeks. 49 00:02:32,213 --> 00:02:32,873 Yes. 50 00:02:32,873 --> 00:02:36,693 It was a really good episode recently with some very handsome chap called Richard 51 00:02:36,693 --> 00:02:38,473 talking about automation. 52 00:02:40,533 --> 00:02:45,253 So yeah, definitely check out the testing pairs if you've not already. 53 00:02:45,253 --> 00:02:50,643 But yeah, let's have a chat about the kind of the topics we learned about and just 54 00:02:50,643 --> 00:02:52,613 general how we enjoyed the day. 55 00:02:53,573 --> 00:02:58,603 So first one that I think, well, there's a few I didn't go to. 56 00:02:58,603 --> 00:03:00,383 I know you, because you were volunteering at the mall, right? 57 00:03:00,383 --> 00:03:02,153 But the opening keynote. 58 00:03:02,153 --> 00:03:09,833 with Heather, Heather Reid, good friend of ours as well was wait, that's not tested. 59 00:03:09,973 --> 00:03:17,213 So, um, she spoke a lot, if I remember correctly now about, um, kind of the, the 60 00:03:17,213 --> 00:03:22,803 topic of not having to thoroughly test or design everything, like putting stuff out 61 00:03:22,803 --> 00:03:27,403 there that may not be a hundred percent what you want it to be, but enough to kind 62 00:03:27,403 --> 00:03:30,753 of get feedback and get useful information from it. 63 00:03:30,793 --> 00:03:36,013 Um, and with a topic that I, that triggered me or that I remember the most 64 00:03:36,013 --> 00:03:36,273 from it. 65 00:03:36,273 --> 00:03:38,493 Well, I say that it's cause I wrote it down in this book. 66 00:03:38,493 --> 00:03:43,883 Um, but it was enough for me to write it down was, um, we'd hear a lot about the 67 00:03:43,883 --> 00:03:48,563 word MVP, don't we like minimum viable product, but she was talking about 68 00:03:48,563 --> 00:03:52,053 minimal, um, minimum shippable risk. 69 00:03:52,053 --> 00:03:56,421 And I thought it was like, it's like. 70 00:03:56,577 --> 00:03:57,445 was like. 71 00:03:57,865 --> 00:04:01,025 Yeah, like we were just chatting before, before pressing record about, you know, 72 00:04:01,025 --> 00:04:05,105 needing more like clothes and stuff like, you know, get it on a t -shirt, right? 73 00:04:05,105 --> 00:04:07,485 Like, where's the sticker for that? 74 00:04:07,485 --> 00:04:09,465 But it made a lot of sense. 75 00:04:09,465 --> 00:04:11,625 So yeah, what, what, what did you think about this? 76 00:04:11,625 --> 00:04:14,689 The, the Heather's talk or Keynote? 77 00:04:14,689 --> 00:04:17,249 could listen to her talk all day. 78 00:04:18,149 --> 00:04:26,439 What I like about what she was saying is that it was very much about data and not 79 00:04:26,439 --> 00:04:27,469 guessing. 80 00:04:28,409 --> 00:04:32,609 And the minimum shippable risk was really cool. 81 00:04:33,169 --> 00:04:39,849 I don't know, some people might say, oh, that's just an unnecessary tweak of MVP. 82 00:04:39,849 --> 00:04:42,365 But I think, I think, 83 00:04:42,581 --> 00:04:47,881 Well, I think because the because MVP has been around so long, it seems to what it 84 00:04:47,881 --> 00:04:50,901 seems to be the case that what what happens in software development 85 00:04:50,901 --> 00:04:56,641 development is a new term comes out and it hangs around for a long time and then it 86 00:04:56,641 --> 00:05:03,341 just morphs and changes into something really weird and completely away from the 87 00:05:03,341 --> 00:05:05,021 thing it was trying to describe in the first place. 88 00:05:05,021 --> 00:05:09,511 So I think minimum shippable risk like refocuses everything back to where it 89 00:05:09,511 --> 00:05:09,841 should be. 90 00:05:09,841 --> 00:05:11,167 It's like what is. 91 00:05:11,829 --> 00:05:18,479 the smallest thing that we can ship that can test our hypothesis about what it is 92 00:05:18,479 --> 00:05:19,709 we want to make. 93 00:05:19,709 --> 00:05:21,129 And it is a hypothesis. 94 00:05:21,129 --> 00:05:25,579 And so her talk was really cool because it, you know, it, it compared and 95 00:05:25,579 --> 00:05:30,909 contrasted some of the, some of the things that her, her team and her company have 96 00:05:30,909 --> 00:05:36,789 built that took a long time and didn't have the results that they hoped. 97 00:05:37,309 --> 00:05:40,949 And some other stuff that they shipped that took 98 00:05:40,949 --> 00:05:46,799 like a fraction of the time that they thought and had outlandish results as a 99 00:05:46,799 --> 00:05:47,489 result. 100 00:05:47,489 --> 00:05:50,909 And she really described well how those things interplay with each other. 101 00:05:50,909 --> 00:05:53,009 So I thought, I thought it was awesome. 102 00:05:53,009 --> 00:05:54,909 And Heather's just generally awesome. 103 00:05:54,989 --> 00:05:55,951 And yeah. 104 00:05:55,951 --> 00:05:57,001 it really interesting. 105 00:05:57,001 --> 00:06:01,801 And like, I know she, they were talking about like their culture about like, um, 106 00:06:01,801 --> 00:06:04,801 you know, basically, um, I can't remember what the book she recommended was, but 107 00:06:04,801 --> 00:06:06,541 you're like, you're basically taking a bet. 108 00:06:06,541 --> 00:06:09,401 And what is that smallest bet you can do? 109 00:06:09,401 --> 00:06:14,501 And with the data that you have, that's going to give you more information to be 110 00:06:14,501 --> 00:06:19,141 able to progress, but not such a bad job that people are going to open it and go, 111 00:06:19,141 --> 00:06:20,621 what the hell is this? 112 00:06:20,621 --> 00:06:23,961 Um, and I found that kind of that. 113 00:06:24,181 --> 00:06:24,649 Like. 114 00:06:24,649 --> 00:06:26,249 I've not had that culture. 115 00:06:26,249 --> 00:06:28,249 I'm a, I overthink everything, right? 116 00:06:28,249 --> 00:06:29,449 I'm a massive overthinker. 117 00:06:29,449 --> 00:06:34,699 So for me, like to train myself to go into that space, I think is going to be a 118 00:06:34,699 --> 00:06:37,569 challenge for me, but one that I'm actually going to be going on soon. 119 00:06:37,569 --> 00:06:41,859 Um, but I found the example she gave was like fascinating. 120 00:06:41,859 --> 00:06:44,629 It was about booking your favorite spot at the gym. 121 00:06:44,629 --> 00:06:49,639 And like their original requirement was to have something like the seat maps that you 122 00:06:49,639 --> 00:06:50,659 get on airplanes, right? 123 00:06:50,659 --> 00:06:51,533 Like. 124 00:06:51,881 --> 00:06:53,121 Yeah. 125 00:06:54,021 --> 00:06:54,717 Yeah. 126 00:06:54,717 --> 00:06:58,667 design team wanted this fancy graphic, but then obviously every gym's different. 127 00:06:58,667 --> 00:06:59,907 It's got a different layout. 128 00:06:59,907 --> 00:07:02,497 It's quite a technical challenge. 129 00:07:02,497 --> 00:07:07,897 And then they ended up with literally just a list, seat one, seat two, or whatever it 130 00:07:07,897 --> 00:07:10,017 was like position one. 131 00:07:10,017 --> 00:07:12,137 It's two, three, four, five. 132 00:07:12,137 --> 00:07:13,697 And that was it. 133 00:07:13,697 --> 00:07:14,687 He just clicked it. 134 00:07:14,687 --> 00:07:17,667 And then I think the smart thing they added was they added a little feedback 135 00:07:17,667 --> 00:07:18,367 thing, didn't they? 136 00:07:18,367 --> 00:07:19,307 Into the top, right? 137 00:07:19,307 --> 00:07:21,269 I can't remember exactly what it said now. 138 00:07:21,665 --> 00:07:22,131 Yeah. 139 00:07:22,131 --> 00:07:27,701 was like, do you, if you care enough to give us feedback on this idea, uh, and 140 00:07:27,701 --> 00:07:29,351 then that helped them, you know, evolve it. 141 00:07:29,351 --> 00:07:33,791 And they never ended up doing this crazy seat mat Ryanair style thing that would 142 00:07:33,791 --> 00:07:37,581 have cost them, you know, hundreds of thousands of euros to implement. 143 00:07:37,581 --> 00:07:41,921 They implemented something, which I think she said was about 150 ,000 euros. 144 00:07:41,921 --> 00:07:43,241 And it did the job. 145 00:07:43,241 --> 00:07:46,441 Wasn't pretty, wasn't singing, wasn't bells and whistles, but solved the 146 00:07:46,441 --> 00:07:47,561 customer's problem. 147 00:07:47,561 --> 00:07:52,131 And I think if you can get that culture, right, that would be pretty cool. 148 00:07:52,393 --> 00:07:54,933 Um, yeah. 149 00:07:55,533 --> 00:07:58,693 But on that note though, I know that you're releasing something soon in the 150 00:07:58,693 --> 00:07:59,873 same vein, right? 151 00:07:59,873 --> 00:08:03,053 Of this, what's the minimum we can get out there? 152 00:08:03,053 --> 00:08:06,523 Can we, can we get a little insight into what you might be releasing soon or can we 153 00:08:06,523 --> 00:08:07,373 not? 154 00:08:07,893 --> 00:08:08,702 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 155 00:08:08,702 --> 00:08:12,433 You sent me a little screenshot a few days ago. 156 00:08:13,703 --> 00:08:17,143 Are you talking about 157 00:08:17,509 --> 00:08:24,969 mistakes that people make when they're doing a joker? 158 00:08:24,969 --> 00:08:28,369 So I didn't know you were gonna do that. 159 00:08:28,369 --> 00:08:35,689 So I'm learning about writing as some of you may know. 160 00:08:36,569 --> 00:08:41,441 So with that in mind, I've created this. 161 00:08:41,449 --> 00:08:43,229 It's like, it's an email course basically. 162 00:08:43,229 --> 00:08:46,189 It's what was what we call an educational email course. 163 00:08:46,189 --> 00:08:51,389 And so I have written a five day educational email course. 164 00:08:51,389 --> 00:08:58,949 So if you opt into it, you will see it, you'll, you'll, you can opt into this 165 00:08:58,949 --> 00:09:02,289 course and you'll get over the, over the course of five days, you'll get, you know, 166 00:09:02,289 --> 00:09:08,969 drip fed information about five mistakes that people make when they adopt or try to 167 00:09:08,969 --> 00:09:11,109 take on the role of a quality coach. 168 00:09:11,305 --> 00:09:16,895 And I think what Rich is getting at is that that is a much wiser thing to do than 169 00:09:16,895 --> 00:09:23,765 to go and build the entire bloody, you know, all singing, all dancing, you know, 170 00:09:23,765 --> 00:09:27,444 online course, you go and sign up for Teachable or, do you know what mean, 171 00:09:27,444 --> 00:09:30,305 Kajabi and Spender, Gajillion, Quiddin. 172 00:09:30,305 --> 00:09:34,045 You get all your video and lighting and you get all your makeup done. 173 00:09:34,045 --> 00:09:37,345 You spend months and months and months creating the syllabus. 174 00:09:37,345 --> 00:09:38,885 You do all this stuff. 175 00:09:38,885 --> 00:09:44,691 and lighting and posh cameras and microphones and... 176 00:09:44,691 --> 00:09:47,041 this podcast, that would be absolutely amazing. 177 00:09:47,301 --> 00:09:50,161 Because your boy needs some equipment, god damn it. 178 00:09:50,241 --> 00:09:52,661 Yeah, getting all the Elgato stuff. 179 00:09:53,061 --> 00:09:54,561 But you don't even know if there's any interest. 180 00:09:54,561 --> 00:09:59,541 You don't even know if people, if there's a need, if there's a desire for it. 181 00:09:59,541 --> 00:10:04,251 And so this really, I mean, I didn't even need to make that. 182 00:10:04,251 --> 00:10:06,191 I could have even done something even smaller. 183 00:10:06,191 --> 00:10:10,737 I could have just said, hey, excuse me, hey everyone, I'm going to make. 184 00:10:11,241 --> 00:10:13,301 a course about this. 185 00:10:13,761 --> 00:10:15,461 Here's the URL, go and check it out. 186 00:10:15,461 --> 00:10:19,961 And then on the URL, as soon as people hit yes, I would like to think you could tell 187 00:10:19,961 --> 00:10:23,261 them, oh, well, actually, well, actually beforehand, you could kind of describing 188 00:10:23,261 --> 00:10:27,801 position it as I am going to write this course, here's what's going to be in it. 189 00:10:27,801 --> 00:10:30,511 If you are interested, press this button, join the waiting list. 190 00:10:30,511 --> 00:10:32,501 And when it's ready, we will let you know. 191 00:10:32,501 --> 00:10:36,371 And that will give you a chance to gauge the interest on the thing. 192 00:10:36,371 --> 00:10:37,991 All you've written is one. 193 00:10:37,991 --> 00:10:39,631 opt -in page or one landing page. 194 00:10:39,631 --> 00:10:42,081 You haven't written anything, you haven't bought anything. 195 00:10:42,141 --> 00:10:46,161 But that will enable you to gauge the interest before you've committed any large 196 00:10:46,161 --> 00:10:47,441 resources to it. 197 00:10:47,441 --> 00:10:47,965 So yeah. 198 00:10:47,965 --> 00:10:48,505 There you go. 199 00:10:48,505 --> 00:10:51,405 So you've, you've made it, you've reduced the risk. 200 00:10:51,405 --> 00:10:54,185 You've shipped the, well, not the mean, the same in the minimum you could have 201 00:10:54,185 --> 00:10:56,305 done, but like still small enough. 202 00:10:56,305 --> 00:10:58,025 Whereas we know for a fact that ain't me. 203 00:10:58,025 --> 00:11:00,275 Like I want to be where I want to be in that space. 204 00:11:00,275 --> 00:11:04,045 Like the space you're in now trying to move into an operating, whatever was 205 00:11:04,045 --> 00:11:05,185 talking about. 206 00:11:05,185 --> 00:11:07,645 I'm the, you know, I've got to perfect this thing. 207 00:11:07,645 --> 00:11:09,545 I've got to make it the best it can be. 208 00:11:09,545 --> 00:11:13,645 It takes two years, get it out there and then no one uses it. 209 00:11:13,645 --> 00:11:14,785 So. 210 00:11:14,909 --> 00:11:18,459 I know that's a mistake and a, a, you know, that, and a trait that I have that 211 00:11:18,459 --> 00:11:19,119 I'm trying to shift. 212 00:11:19,119 --> 00:11:21,969 I remember Heather called me a perfectionist like a couple of weeks ago 213 00:11:21,969 --> 00:11:27,299 and like, it's, it's a, it's a useful trait in some spaces, but like, if you're 214 00:11:27,299 --> 00:11:32,309 trying to get stuff out there quickly, see what sticks in the cheapest low effort 215 00:11:32,309 --> 00:11:33,309 way. 216 00:11:33,729 --> 00:11:36,329 Yeah, I need to get some new practices. 217 00:11:36,329 --> 00:11:37,489 So thank you, Vernon. 218 00:11:37,489 --> 00:11:38,551 Thank you, Heather. 219 00:11:38,994 --> 00:11:41,134 progress beats perfection, man. 220 00:11:41,134 --> 00:11:45,774 You've got to get it out there, get some data and then figure out what's going on. 221 00:11:46,894 --> 00:11:47,754 Swag is coming. 222 00:11:47,754 --> 00:11:48,454 Don't worry about that. 223 00:11:48,454 --> 00:11:50,650 The Vernon Richards show swag is 224 00:11:51,809 --> 00:11:53,689 like it. 225 00:11:53,929 --> 00:11:55,349 Right, what was next for you, Vern? 226 00:11:55,349 --> 00:11:57,174 What was next on your 227 00:11:57,349 --> 00:11:58,309 list? 228 00:11:58,889 --> 00:12:06,109 What was next on my, on my, I think, I think I'm going to skip straight to, well, 229 00:12:06,709 --> 00:12:10,829 on Twitter, in fact, on all social media, I call myself the tester from Leicester. 230 00:12:10,829 --> 00:12:14,709 Well, it turns out, ladies and gentlemen, there are more. 231 00:12:14,709 --> 00:12:16,779 I'm not just the tester from Leicester. 232 00:12:16,779 --> 00:12:20,009 In fact, I am a tester from Leicester because there was another tester from 233 00:12:20,009 --> 00:12:26,979 Leicester at the Pierscon 2024 and he goes by the name of Jit, Jit, Kosai and listen, 234 00:12:26,979 --> 00:12:28,073 if you've not, 235 00:12:28,073 --> 00:12:35,243 ran into Jit online or in person at a meetup or at a conference, something like 236 00:12:35,243 --> 00:12:35,633 that. 237 00:12:35,633 --> 00:12:36,493 You are missing out. 238 00:12:36,493 --> 00:12:37,433 You need to get involved. 239 00:12:37,433 --> 00:12:40,933 Like you need to go and check out his newsletter, which I didn't have prepared. 240 00:12:40,933 --> 00:12:42,293 That's terrible. 241 00:12:42,393 --> 00:12:46,393 But definitely jump on LinkedIn, follow Jit, connect with Jit. 242 00:12:46,393 --> 00:12:48,713 He writes an amazing newsletter. 243 00:12:48,873 --> 00:12:52,513 Every time he talks about anything to do with software development, software 244 00:12:52,513 --> 00:12:56,329 quality, software testing, leadership, it's... 245 00:12:56,329 --> 00:13:00,119 done in a really thoughtful, easy to digest manner. 246 00:13:00,119 --> 00:13:01,479 He puts a lot of effort into it. 247 00:13:01,479 --> 00:13:03,869 His slides, good grief. 248 00:13:04,809 --> 00:13:10,329 The way he presents it, prezzy fiend, prezzy fiend. 249 00:13:10,329 --> 00:13:18,849 But the thing I've got from his talk is that psychological safety is not about 250 00:13:18,849 --> 00:13:22,369 creating environments where there is zero challenge for people. 251 00:13:22,369 --> 00:13:24,209 That is not what it's about. 252 00:13:24,209 --> 00:13:25,781 What it is is about, 253 00:13:26,025 --> 00:13:34,805 having a place where people can learn and grow and be challenged, but it isn't in a 254 00:13:34,805 --> 00:13:37,565 way that is threatening. 255 00:13:37,565 --> 00:13:41,075 I'm probably not explaining this as well as Jit would explain it, but that was the 256 00:13:41,075 --> 00:13:42,164 key thing for me. 257 00:13:42,164 --> 00:13:45,705 And I was really glad that he explained that and called it out. 258 00:13:45,705 --> 00:13:48,385 Cause sometimes people could say, oh, you just want to save space. 259 00:13:48,385 --> 00:13:49,965 That means you don't want to debate anything. 260 00:13:49,965 --> 00:13:53,145 It's like, no, it's about establishing. 261 00:13:53,225 --> 00:13:57,775 some ground rules and some trust so that you know when you are challenged, it isn't 262 00:13:57,775 --> 00:13:59,005 about you. 263 00:13:59,005 --> 00:14:01,305 It isn't ad hominem. 264 00:14:01,305 --> 00:14:06,545 It's like people establish some ground rules and create some space where 265 00:14:06,545 --> 00:14:08,685 challenge is welcome, growth is welcome. 266 00:14:08,685 --> 00:14:10,465 We can bring our whole selves. 267 00:14:10,465 --> 00:14:15,005 It doesn't feel risky to talk about some aspects of yourself. 268 00:14:15,005 --> 00:14:16,907 And I thought it was fantastic talk. 269 00:14:18,141 --> 00:14:24,641 Yeah, I think that's like firstly Jits also maybe he's from Leicester, but he's 270 00:14:24,641 --> 00:14:25,441 moved to Manchester. 271 00:14:25,441 --> 00:14:27,941 So, you know, he's clearly a smart guy as well. 272 00:14:28,381 --> 00:14:36,781 So, but yeah, his, I feel, I feel psychologically safe on this podcast. 273 00:14:36,781 --> 00:14:45,841 But yeah, his quality engineering newsletter is quality engsubstapp .com. 274 00:14:45,841 --> 00:14:48,061 But again, we'll do the whole in the link. 275 00:14:48,061 --> 00:14:50,621 that we'll learn how to do. 276 00:14:50,941 --> 00:14:54,761 But yeah, that was a really good talk and I've got a lot of time as you said, Fijit, 277 00:14:54,761 --> 00:15:00,181 and I think the takeaway for me was that it's not just about saying you can do it. 278 00:15:00,181 --> 00:15:02,131 It's that this is a safe place. 279 00:15:02,131 --> 00:15:06,401 You can kick back or put your opinions or whatever it is. 280 00:15:06,401 --> 00:15:08,041 Is it actually happening? 281 00:15:08,041 --> 00:15:12,661 So are you fostering a place that allows that to happen, but then in a safe way? 282 00:15:12,781 --> 00:15:17,085 And also, I think you gave an example, I'm trying to remember exactly, but. 283 00:15:17,085 --> 00:15:21,234 It was an example of like someone's not said anything and then someone goes, Oh, 284 00:15:21,234 --> 00:15:22,745 then you're not said anything. 285 00:15:22,745 --> 00:15:23,725 Is that safe? 286 00:15:23,725 --> 00:15:25,055 I actually got nothing to say. 287 00:15:25,055 --> 00:15:27,675 And now I'm on the spot going, ah, what do I say? 288 00:15:27,675 --> 00:15:30,295 And it's like, well, you can say whatever you want. 289 00:15:30,295 --> 00:15:31,175 It's a safe space. 290 00:15:31,175 --> 00:15:32,765 It's like, I don't want to say anything. 291 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:34,105 There's nothing I want to add. 292 00:15:34,105 --> 00:15:37,525 Um, but yeah, he really broke that talk down well. 293 00:15:37,525 --> 00:15:41,315 So I think if you're interested in that topic, um, give him a follow, I'm sure 294 00:15:41,315 --> 00:15:45,245 he's share slides or you might have other written materials on it. 295 00:15:45,245 --> 00:15:46,301 Um, but yeah. 296 00:15:46,301 --> 00:15:50,131 Definitely, definitely a chat worth following incredibly knowledgeable talks 297 00:15:50,131 --> 00:15:51,981 very concisely. 298 00:15:51,981 --> 00:15:55,711 Um, and also we learned on the way to the social after the conference, didn't we, 299 00:15:55,711 --> 00:15:59,911 that he's a, he was the first one that he's, he usually memorizes his talk, he 300 00:15:59,911 --> 00:16:00,361 said. 301 00:16:00,361 --> 00:16:07,141 Um, but because he was making such subtle concise points, he went with, um, key 302 00:16:07,141 --> 00:16:10,701 cards, um, well, you know, and, uh, whatever they're called their cards. 303 00:16:10,701 --> 00:16:14,129 And again, I love that he did that because. 304 00:16:14,237 --> 00:16:18,317 It's like, you know, some people be like, Oh, he's reading from his phone, like, oh, 305 00:16:18,317 --> 00:16:19,467 worst presenter ever. 306 00:16:19,467 --> 00:16:21,827 And it's like, well, there's a context for everything, right? 307 00:16:21,827 --> 00:16:23,467 There's a reason people are doing that. 308 00:16:23,467 --> 00:16:27,557 And he did it because he was talking about something very important that impacts us 309 00:16:27,557 --> 00:16:28,077 all. 310 00:16:28,077 --> 00:16:31,327 Even if your company doesn't talk about it, it's still may or may not be 311 00:16:31,327 --> 00:16:32,177 happening. 312 00:16:32,237 --> 00:16:36,867 And I really, I really, yeah, I gave him top, top, top rep, top props and credit 313 00:16:36,867 --> 00:16:38,229 for doing that. 314 00:16:38,697 --> 00:16:40,407 Yeah, shout out to you. 315 00:16:40,407 --> 00:16:42,125 We're fans over here, you know that. 316 00:16:42,125 --> 00:16:43,025 fans. 317 00:16:44,285 --> 00:16:50,075 Well, for me after that, well, it was actually before that was a guy called Al 318 00:16:50,075 --> 00:16:56,905 Goodall, who I have spent quite a bit of time with helping him with his talks with 319 00:16:56,905 --> 00:17:02,845 his public, not just speaking, just, you know, general sharing and to see him do 320 00:17:02,845 --> 00:17:04,465 his first talk. 321 00:17:05,533 --> 00:17:06,473 was kind of cool. 322 00:17:06,473 --> 00:17:09,213 I just enjoyed like, just like, just watching it. 323 00:17:09,213 --> 00:17:13,363 Um, and it was not that, you know, not that I wouldn't have like posted about any 324 00:17:13,363 --> 00:17:18,633 other talks, but like I posted about his on LinkedIn just because like I connected 325 00:17:18,633 --> 00:17:21,303 with it from the topic, but also him as a person. 326 00:17:21,303 --> 00:17:25,193 And I was like, ah, so yeah, for people that weren't there, I was talking about 327 00:17:25,193 --> 00:17:30,623 his journey into leadership and how he stepped into this leadership role, but he 328 00:17:30,623 --> 00:17:32,093 was really open about it. 329 00:17:32,093 --> 00:17:33,979 He was very open about. 330 00:17:34,397 --> 00:17:38,677 the challenges that he faced, how it, for him, it became all about the people. 331 00:17:38,677 --> 00:17:41,877 And he took, he took his eye off himself. 332 00:17:41,877 --> 00:17:46,577 Like he wasn't looking after his own growth, his own health, his mental health 333 00:17:46,577 --> 00:17:47,017 as well. 334 00:17:47,017 --> 00:17:48,997 He was very open about that. 335 00:17:48,997 --> 00:17:53,347 It was, he suddenly became all about the other people because I'm a leader now. 336 00:17:53,347 --> 00:17:54,847 Like it's all about my people. 337 00:17:54,847 --> 00:17:56,417 You know, I've got to look after them. 338 00:17:56,417 --> 00:17:58,447 And he was like, no, that's definitely not the case. 339 00:17:58,447 --> 00:18:02,517 Like, yes, you do look after them, but you can't look after them if you ain't looking 340 00:18:02,517 --> 00:18:03,815 after yourself. 341 00:18:03,837 --> 00:18:08,247 Um, and I think that was like kind of one of the strongest things I took away from 342 00:18:08,247 --> 00:18:09,243 his talk. 343 00:18:11,209 --> 00:18:17,829 Yeah, I had a similar, I had a similar feeling of like, I don't know, I was just 344 00:18:17,829 --> 00:18:22,609 happy to see him on stage presenting at all. 345 00:18:22,749 --> 00:18:28,909 And it was, it was a really, it was a really kind of inspiring talk in a way, 346 00:18:28,909 --> 00:18:34,169 because he, he didn't, as you say, he didn't try and sugar coat the fact that 347 00:18:34,169 --> 00:18:37,209 he, you know, he made a few mistakes and you know, he made peace with that. 348 00:18:37,209 --> 00:18:39,199 And he's like, look, the mistakes are going to happen. 349 00:18:39,199 --> 00:18:40,827 That's completely normal. 350 00:18:41,139 --> 00:18:43,689 So I enjoyed his talk a lot. 351 00:18:43,689 --> 00:18:45,189 I didn't get a chance to talk to him afterwards. 352 00:18:45,189 --> 00:18:51,729 I wanted to talk to him about some of the specific points he was making just to 353 00:18:51,729 --> 00:18:58,429 really understand properly what he meant by some of the things. 354 00:18:58,429 --> 00:18:59,889 But it was a great talk. 355 00:19:00,069 --> 00:19:03,609 I'm gutted that they weren't recorded. 356 00:19:05,509 --> 00:19:09,329 That's not a pop of you peers at all. 357 00:19:10,185 --> 00:19:11,417 It just would have been able to. 358 00:19:11,417 --> 00:19:13,127 it's a valid thing to bring up though. 359 00:19:13,127 --> 00:19:15,627 Like, cause you know, hopefully some of them listening, like, you know, if the 360 00:19:15,627 --> 00:19:16,957 ticket, like what was the ticket? 361 00:19:16,957 --> 00:19:18,597 Was it 20 quid this year? 362 00:19:19,057 --> 00:19:19,637 20 quid. 363 00:19:19,637 --> 00:19:23,297 So maybe if it was 30 quid next year and we get recordings, I'd happily justify 364 00:19:23,297 --> 00:19:23,657 that. 365 00:19:23,657 --> 00:19:25,977 That for me justifies that extra tenner. 366 00:19:25,977 --> 00:19:28,377 So, you know, I know they were going to talk about how they're open with their 367 00:19:28,377 --> 00:19:29,257 prices and stuff. 368 00:19:29,257 --> 00:19:34,437 Like for me, I'd happily pay, you know, that extra money to get the recordings. 369 00:19:34,437 --> 00:19:37,497 Not because I'm going to watch them, but because I know I could. 370 00:19:37,497 --> 00:19:39,357 Um, if. 371 00:19:39,357 --> 00:19:41,437 you know, if I need to do that. 372 00:19:41,437 --> 00:19:46,407 Um, but yeah, I'll fantastic talk may really great to see you up there. 373 00:19:46,407 --> 00:19:48,797 I hope you continue to do some more. 374 00:19:48,797 --> 00:19:54,747 And I think the final thing I took from Al's, um, the talk was that he spoke about 375 00:19:54,747 --> 00:19:56,917 a lot about like learn, like trying to learn. 376 00:19:56,917 --> 00:20:00,607 He was watching courses, reading articles, he was reading books and he was like, yes, 377 00:20:00,607 --> 00:20:05,997 they can help you and prepare, but until you actually do it and you start doing the 378 00:20:05,997 --> 00:20:06,755 job. 379 00:20:06,941 --> 00:20:10,761 Like it's, it was very different and he was like, you know, I learned a lot more 380 00:20:10,761 --> 00:20:12,401 just trying to do it. 381 00:20:12,401 --> 00:20:16,231 Then I ever did trying to read these, you know, books and everything in advance and 382 00:20:16,231 --> 00:20:17,561 take these courses. 383 00:20:17,561 --> 00:20:22,341 So I found that like, again, just a really open and honest, you know, insight into 384 00:20:22,341 --> 00:20:23,801 his approach. 385 00:20:23,821 --> 00:20:27,881 Um, and yeah, he's yeah, you actually smashed it Al. 386 00:20:27,881 --> 00:20:28,661 I'm really proud. 387 00:20:28,661 --> 00:20:31,641 I'd love to see you on another stage soon. 388 00:20:31,641 --> 00:20:32,450 Fingers crossed. 389 00:20:33,109 --> 00:20:34,809 I talk about another talk? 390 00:20:35,209 --> 00:20:37,609 Do we have to stop talking about PeersCon? 391 00:20:38,009 --> 00:20:39,449 Or can I talk about? 392 00:20:40,909 --> 00:20:42,129 Oh, good. 393 00:20:42,569 --> 00:20:43,629 Okay. 394 00:20:43,749 --> 00:20:50,569 Because the other talk that I liked, got a lot of them, was Beth Clark's talk about 395 00:20:50,569 --> 00:20:54,169 being the glue on the team. 396 00:20:54,169 --> 00:20:57,653 And it was basically a talk about DevOps and why... 397 00:20:57,653 --> 00:21:00,433 So Beth is a DevOps, is she DevOps engineer? 398 00:21:00,433 --> 00:21:02,113 Is that what she calls herself? 399 00:21:02,833 --> 00:21:07,513 The DevOps engineer and her storytelling ability. 400 00:21:07,773 --> 00:21:09,053 Bro, listen. 401 00:21:09,813 --> 00:21:13,113 And she did this, oh, she's a devil. 402 00:21:13,113 --> 00:21:20,393 Cause she, it's like she started, it's like she did Star Wars episode four first. 403 00:21:21,133 --> 00:21:25,793 So she's like, oh, here's what we're doing at the company that I'm at. 404 00:21:26,593 --> 00:21:27,541 So. 405 00:21:27,541 --> 00:21:34,181 She works for an oil and gas company, right? 406 00:21:34,361 --> 00:21:38,221 So very, very serious stuff. 407 00:21:39,301 --> 00:21:42,251 But she started at, well, this is what we do now. 408 00:21:42,251 --> 00:21:46,861 And she just described the context and described all the cool practices that 409 00:21:46,861 --> 00:21:52,411 DevOps gives you and how they've helped her organization and some of the things 410 00:21:52,411 --> 00:21:53,811 that she's done to instill that. 411 00:21:53,811 --> 00:21:56,663 But what she didn't talk about was how she got from 412 00:21:56,917 --> 00:21:59,577 where they were when they arrived to now. 413 00:21:59,577 --> 00:22:02,387 So I was like, please, could you do that talk next? 414 00:22:02,387 --> 00:22:04,177 Because I would like to know how you did that. 415 00:22:04,177 --> 00:22:07,537 But the talk that she did at PeersCon was absolutely brilliant. 416 00:22:07,537 --> 00:22:15,107 And why I liked it is because it talks about glue work, which is a topic I'm fond 417 00:22:15,107 --> 00:22:15,977 of. 418 00:22:15,977 --> 00:22:23,897 But also it really distilled how I felt when I first heard about DevOps, which I 419 00:22:23,897 --> 00:22:25,057 was like, oh, this is awesome. 420 00:22:25,057 --> 00:22:26,411 This is all about testing. 421 00:22:26,805 --> 00:22:30,875 This is there's there's no stress or drama or, you know, fear here whatsoever. 422 00:22:30,875 --> 00:22:35,615 And I know over the years, you know, there have been constant, you know, different 423 00:22:35,615 --> 00:22:39,465 accusations or moments where it's like, oh, testers, you're all in the shit now. 424 00:22:39,465 --> 00:22:42,705 And I think. 425 00:22:43,605 --> 00:22:43,979 They are. 426 00:22:43,979 --> 00:22:47,789 seen recently about, um, like there's what's the one where you go, is this your 427 00:22:47,789 --> 00:22:48,709 first time? 428 00:22:48,709 --> 00:22:54,579 Uh, like all these memes now, like developers are like, Oh, Devlin's coming 429 00:22:54,579 --> 00:22:55,489 from our jobs. 430 00:22:55,489 --> 00:22:56,751 Like, Oh, yeah. 431 00:22:56,751 --> 00:22:58,361 get that in the show notes. 432 00:22:58,781 --> 00:23:03,121 I thought it was a really good talk because it really explained why, you know, 433 00:23:03,121 --> 00:23:05,011 testers DevOps is our friend. 434 00:23:05,011 --> 00:23:05,951 It's all about testing. 435 00:23:05,951 --> 00:23:06,701 We should embrace it. 436 00:23:06,701 --> 00:23:08,741 Here's how it makes our lives easier. 437 00:23:08,741 --> 00:23:13,201 So yeah, I thought it was a great tool and I'm hoping for the prequel talk. 438 00:23:13,673 --> 00:23:17,913 Yeah, I was, I was going to say like, it was an absolute fantastic delivery. 439 00:23:17,913 --> 00:23:20,113 Um, very, it was humorous. 440 00:23:20,113 --> 00:23:22,013 It was just, yeah, it was very chill. 441 00:23:22,013 --> 00:23:28,403 And, but yeah, that topic of like glue work and yeah, it's like, you always 442 00:23:28,403 --> 00:23:32,463 might, I know that topic was specifically about DevOps, but it always also makes me 443 00:23:32,463 --> 00:23:37,053 think about the shift from tester to QE and like, you're just doing a little bit 444 00:23:37,053 --> 00:23:37,803 more of that glue 445 00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:39,160 Here's the thing. 446 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:45,110 So my understanding of glue work, my favourite thing about glue work as a 447 00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:50,250 concept, and I learnt this by watching and re -watching and re -watching and re 448 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:57,860 -watching again, Tanya Riley's talk about glue work is that it's at its core, it is 449 00:23:57,860 --> 00:23:59,480 technical leadership. 450 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:06,164 And so what Beth was talking about was going into a situation where... 451 00:24:06,972 --> 00:24:10,782 She was a single DevOps engineer, which I know is a little bit of an oxymoron. 452 00:24:10,782 --> 00:24:11,452 I get that. 453 00:24:11,452 --> 00:24:12,622 Let's put that to one side. 454 00:24:12,622 --> 00:24:14,292 You know what I mean? 455 00:24:14,911 --> 00:24:16,382 She's gone into this team. 456 00:24:16,382 --> 00:24:18,972 She's the youngest person on that team. 457 00:24:18,972 --> 00:24:22,872 So all the engineers have worked at that company for a long time. 458 00:24:23,212 --> 00:24:27,602 And the domain is something that they've been in for a long time. 459 00:24:27,602 --> 00:24:31,052 I don't think Beth had been in that domain before. 460 00:24:31,432 --> 00:24:37,234 And yet she was able to lead the transformation from 461 00:24:37,980 --> 00:24:42,500 we do not collaborate, we do not use tools, we do not know what the hell we're 462 00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:46,690 building from one minute to the next to now they're collaborating, they're using 463 00:24:46,690 --> 00:24:48,800 tools, they're using data. 464 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,540 So I think it's technical leadership. 465 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:59,890 The way I describe glue work is the kind of work that nobody officially owns, but 466 00:24:59,890 --> 00:25:03,450 if it doesn't, if those things don't happen, whatever you're working on is 467 00:25:03,450 --> 00:25:04,520 gonna fail. 468 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,860 It's going to fail. 469 00:25:05,860 --> 00:25:07,804 Like it's not, it's... 470 00:25:07,804 --> 00:25:09,454 There's no ifs, ands, or what's about it. 471 00:25:09,454 --> 00:25:11,584 It's not going to work. 472 00:25:11,824 --> 00:25:14,228 And so if you think about it... 473 00:25:15,964 --> 00:25:20,974 You know, it could be, what are the examples that I saw in the, okay. 474 00:25:20,974 --> 00:25:25,444 So one of them is someone in the organisation is having a really difficult 475 00:25:25,444 --> 00:25:28,474 conversation with a bunch of other people from the organisation, which means that 476 00:25:28,474 --> 00:25:31,124 they can't, they don't know what to build. 477 00:25:31,204 --> 00:25:34,884 So if you can go in there, if you spot that and go in there, facilitate that, 478 00:25:34,884 --> 00:25:35,864 awesome. 479 00:25:35,884 --> 00:25:41,438 The problem is if you're, if you've been positioned as the tester, 480 00:25:42,812 --> 00:25:46,112 quite often people's first reaction is, what are you doing here, Tester? 481 00:25:46,112 --> 00:25:50,622 Get over there and interact with the product, leave this stuff to us or, you 482 00:25:50,622 --> 00:25:51,352 know, people. 483 00:25:51,352 --> 00:25:54,992 But if you just change the job title from Tester to engineering manager, no one's 484 00:25:54,992 --> 00:25:56,272 asking those questions. 485 00:25:56,952 --> 00:25:58,412 Absolutely no one. 486 00:25:58,672 --> 00:26:05,012 And so if you get positioned as a technical leader, which Beth clearly is, 487 00:26:05,092 --> 00:26:06,312 no one's asking you any questions. 488 00:26:06,312 --> 00:26:10,352 She got positioned like beautifully, well, 489 00:26:11,174 --> 00:26:12,884 All I can imagine is listening to the talk. 490 00:26:12,884 --> 00:26:17,854 She got positioned absolutely beautifully and then she just went to work and smashed 491 00:26:17,854 --> 00:26:18,744 it. 492 00:26:18,904 --> 00:26:21,984 So yeah, if you get a chance to hear that talk from Beth, highly recommend. 493 00:26:21,984 --> 00:26:26,904 And Beth, if this podcast crosses your path, please create the prequel talk, 494 00:26:26,904 --> 00:26:31,644 because I would like to know how you even went from step zero to step PeersCon. 495 00:26:31,644 --> 00:26:32,864 That would be awesome. 496 00:26:34,672 --> 00:26:35,422 There you go. 497 00:26:35,422 --> 00:26:36,812 There's the request. 498 00:26:36,812 --> 00:26:37,332 All right. 499 00:26:37,332 --> 00:26:43,912 So I think the other talk, the other keynote was for Leigh Rathbone. 500 00:26:45,352 --> 00:26:47,052 And Leigh Rathbone. 501 00:26:47,052 --> 00:26:49,422 So that guy brought some energy on. 502 00:26:49,422 --> 00:26:52,332 And I learned a few things about Leigh. 503 00:26:52,732 --> 00:26:58,272 He was talking about the, let me find the right title just so I get this right. 504 00:26:58,752 --> 00:27:00,012 Where are we Mr. 505 00:27:00,012 --> 00:27:00,732 Rathbone here? 506 00:27:00,732 --> 00:27:03,532 The history of testing and why it's important. 507 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:05,940 shaping the future. 508 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,010 And number one, I've learned that I should never give Leigh Rathbone anything of any 509 00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:15,840 value in any... 510 00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:22,680 We learned that Leigh likes to steal things from his employers, especially 511 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,040 mobile phones. 512 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,470 But yeah, we have no evidence for this. 513 00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:27,916 This is pure hearsay, right? 514 00:27:27,916 --> 00:27:32,556 going to say it's probably a good job that that talk was not recorded, my God. 515 00:27:32,711 --> 00:27:37,781 but there was one thing that came up for me, which made me, I was nodding my head 516 00:27:37,781 --> 00:27:38,361 for most of it. 517 00:27:38,361 --> 00:27:39,591 I was like, yep, yep, yep. 518 00:27:39,591 --> 00:27:40,751 Definitely agree with that. 519 00:27:40,751 --> 00:27:46,301 But then he was talking about, like debates on LinkedIn that he reckons 520 00:27:46,301 --> 00:27:49,791 damaged some of the testing graph. 521 00:27:49,791 --> 00:27:53,951 We didn't name names, but we all, maybe I'm not saying everyone does know 522 00:27:53,951 --> 00:27:54,791 listening to this, right? 523 00:27:54,791 --> 00:27:57,631 There's a couple of thought leaders. 524 00:27:58,251 --> 00:28:04,771 to think of a good title who have very strong opinions on terminology, semantics, 525 00:28:04,771 --> 00:28:06,981 what testing is, blah, blah, blah, right? 526 00:28:06,981 --> 00:28:15,131 And they're very, yeah, let's say direct and unpleasant on social sometimes. 527 00:28:15,131 --> 00:28:19,761 And he was saying how those debates basically were being seen by non -testing 528 00:28:19,761 --> 00:28:20,431 people. 529 00:28:20,431 --> 00:28:24,871 They were being viewed by engineers and engineering managers and leaders. 530 00:28:24,871 --> 00:28:27,723 And he believes that that had a negative impact. 531 00:28:27,723 --> 00:28:32,103 on the view of testing and QE and QA. 532 00:28:32,663 --> 00:28:36,703 Um, so yeah, I'm not, I, I, I haven't seen it. 533 00:28:36,703 --> 00:28:37,953 I think that's why I was listening to it. 534 00:28:37,953 --> 00:28:39,563 I was going, yes, I saw the arguments. 535 00:28:39,563 --> 00:28:41,803 Yes, I saw the debates, probably involved in some of them. 536 00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:45,263 I can't remember anymore, but yeah, probably. 537 00:28:45,263 --> 00:28:50,663 But then it was like, I never, I never for a moment thought, I wonder what anyone 538 00:28:50,663 --> 00:28:52,823 else outside of this is thinking. 539 00:28:52,823 --> 00:28:56,075 Cause I was in it thinking I'm going to learn some at here or I'm going to. 540 00:28:56,075 --> 00:28:59,855 I'm going to shape the way this is, or I'm going to, you know, voice my opinions or 541 00:28:59,855 --> 00:29:00,395 whatever. 542 00:29:00,395 --> 00:29:04,645 I wasn't thinking anyone looking in and it gave me a really, made me pause for a 543 00:29:04,645 --> 00:29:06,055 moment and think. 544 00:29:06,355 --> 00:29:11,305 Whenever I post or start topics on socials or whatever, it's always like, I think I'm 545 00:29:11,305 --> 00:29:16,915 just talking to other QEs and testers, but I know my audience is not just QEs and 546 00:29:16,915 --> 00:29:21,415 testers and it's, it's now starting to realize that, Oh, actually, you know what? 547 00:29:21,415 --> 00:29:24,145 Maybe there is another angles we should be considering 548 00:29:24,734 --> 00:29:33,254 I'm just, while you were talking, you reminded me of a post that I saw this 549 00:29:33,254 --> 00:29:35,807 morning on LinkedIn. 550 00:29:35,807 --> 00:29:36,527 Bam. 551 00:29:37,027 --> 00:29:42,187 Yeah, so it was another topic. 552 00:29:42,447 --> 00:29:46,567 So I think the topic, if I remember rightly, if I'm wrong, which, but the 553 00:29:46,567 --> 00:29:51,727 topic that Leigh was referring to was testing and checking. 554 00:29:54,687 --> 00:29:57,451 Yeah, so, and I know that is really. 555 00:29:57,451 --> 00:29:59,911 polarizing for some people. 556 00:29:59,911 --> 00:30:07,871 And I know that folks in the context driven testing community like to talk 557 00:30:07,871 --> 00:30:08,431 about this topic. 558 00:30:08,431 --> 00:30:13,500 I consider myself to be part of that community and I find there is utility in 559 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:17,541 that distinction, but some people find it hideously irritating and annoying and 560 00:30:17,541 --> 00:30:18,411 without value. 561 00:30:18,411 --> 00:30:21,541 And there was another post that Caleb made. 562 00:30:21,541 --> 00:30:23,765 It looks like it was made a few days ago. 563 00:30:24,299 --> 00:30:29,199 and it's about mindset and it's about this builder mindset and the testing mindset. 564 00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:34,869 And I thought that was another polarizing conversation, but in the, I must remember 565 00:30:34,869 --> 00:30:39,369 to put that in the show notes as well, Rich, but I really liked the conversation 566 00:30:39,369 --> 00:30:43,399 that happened in the comments beneath that post. 567 00:30:43,459 --> 00:30:48,949 It's not to say that it wasn't spicy, you know, going back to Jit's earlier point, I 568 00:30:48,949 --> 00:30:51,371 think it just, it wasn't the... 569 00:30:51,371 --> 00:30:53,031 you couldn't disagree firmly. 570 00:30:53,031 --> 00:30:53,771 It was good. 571 00:30:53,771 --> 00:30:56,701 People came and brought their different opinions. 572 00:30:58,731 --> 00:31:01,591 And I wish that all debates could be like that. 573 00:31:01,591 --> 00:31:04,591 I wish all disagreements could be like that. 574 00:31:04,591 --> 00:31:06,811 But sadly, that is not the case. 575 00:31:06,811 --> 00:31:09,191 I will say, I think Leigh had a point. 576 00:31:09,191 --> 00:31:14,521 I think in some parts of the software development community, the broader one, I 577 00:31:14,521 --> 00:31:20,161 think those conversations did, if you pardon my French, fuck things up for 578 00:31:20,161 --> 00:31:23,307 testers, I think, because of the way it was. 579 00:31:23,307 --> 00:31:27,817 It was much more the nature of the debate, it felt like, more than the actual topic 580 00:31:27,817 --> 00:31:28,267 itself. 581 00:31:28,267 --> 00:31:31,007 I mean, the topic itself was problematic for people. 582 00:31:31,027 --> 00:31:37,727 But on top of that, it was the way that people debated it that seemed to be a 583 00:31:37,727 --> 00:31:38,607 problem as well. 584 00:31:38,607 --> 00:31:46,677 I spoke to, I won't name names, but I spoke to somebody who is not a tester, but 585 00:31:46,677 --> 00:31:51,007 loves testers and testing and writes and talks about it all the time. 586 00:31:51,007 --> 00:31:51,939 And... 587 00:31:52,811 --> 00:31:58,611 He, you know, reading between the lines of what he said, he was like, yeah, really, 588 00:31:58,611 --> 00:32:00,231 that was not great. 589 00:32:00,231 --> 00:32:04,643 So, you know, how you feel about that is how you feel about that, you know. 590 00:32:05,343 --> 00:32:12,433 And I think there's a fascinating space in it that is, you know, it's not the right 591 00:32:12,433 --> 00:32:15,343 medium for some of those things to happen. 592 00:32:16,223 --> 00:32:23,623 And I think, I don't even like the word debate, but I know what you mean though, 593 00:32:23,623 --> 00:32:28,803 like those conversations were viewed by other people and it just made us look like 594 00:32:28,803 --> 00:32:29,593 a bunch of idiots. 595 00:32:29,593 --> 00:32:31,173 I think that's what Leigh said, you know what mean? 596 00:32:31,173 --> 00:32:32,959 Like we're just bickering and arguing. 597 00:32:32,959 --> 00:32:35,089 and not actually progressing the craft, right? 598 00:32:35,089 --> 00:32:39,559 You know, there is subtle pieces of information in some of those 599 00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:44,539 conversations, but they just look unpleasant, like the way those wings are. 600 00:32:44,539 --> 00:32:51,259 And like, you know, the people in those conversations, yeah, I don't engage on 601 00:32:51,259 --> 00:32:54,859 their posts anymore, like, because I just know what they turn into. 602 00:32:56,419 --> 00:33:00,611 But yeah, it is, it's, okay. 603 00:33:00,611 --> 00:33:02,869 just avoid completely. 604 00:33:02,975 --> 00:33:03,785 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 605 00:33:03,785 --> 00:33:06,305 So if I see, if I see a, I'll name names. 606 00:33:06,305 --> 00:33:10,495 If I see a Fred with James back in it, I don't engage. 607 00:33:11,335 --> 00:33:18,235 I don't engage because number one, I value his insights into the testing, but it's 608 00:33:18,235 --> 00:33:20,736 not someone I want to have a conversation with. 609 00:33:20,846 --> 00:33:23,286 It's just more from an energy point of view, to be honest with you. 610 00:33:23,286 --> 00:33:28,116 Like I'm not, if I'm in a space where I want to do that, I'd rather talk to James 611 00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:32,086 directly or perhaps go to a peer workshop or something like that. 612 00:33:32,086 --> 00:33:38,266 I don't feel like LinkedIn is going to be a beneficial place for me to start having 613 00:33:38,266 --> 00:33:39,666 debates. 614 00:33:39,666 --> 00:33:42,596 There is opportunity, there is cases like recently where I spoke about the 615 00:33:42,596 --> 00:33:46,586 automation and testing course and that, you I'll speak up if I think, if I'm very 616 00:33:46,586 --> 00:33:48,266 strongly about it, I'll speak up. 617 00:33:48,266 --> 00:33:50,742 But if it's just another case of me, you know, 618 00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:54,950 picking on one of the four fine details that's been brought up and going, oh, you 619 00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:56,050 know, I disagree with that one. 620 00:33:56,050 --> 00:33:58,700 Like, you know, I don't see the value in that now. 621 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:04,220 Like I'd actually feel that I probably get more value by perhaps making my own thread 622 00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:08,750 about that or starting a blog post about that, or maybe chatting to you on here 623 00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:09,610 about that. 624 00:34:09,610 --> 00:34:15,130 Um, but I don't feel that that those LinkedIn comments is the best place to be. 625 00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:16,630 I'll go to a forum, right? 626 00:34:16,630 --> 00:34:20,078 Go to, go to a better medium basically to have. 627 00:34:20,078 --> 00:34:22,273 those kinds of in -depth conversations. 628 00:34:22,974 --> 00:34:24,614 That makes sense. 629 00:34:25,074 --> 00:34:27,023 Yeah, that makes a ton of sense actually. 630 00:34:27,023 --> 00:34:28,134 And I love how you put that. 631 00:34:28,134 --> 00:34:32,814 It's like, I've got to save my energy for, there's better uses of my energy right now 632 00:34:32,814 --> 00:34:34,974 than rowing on LinkedIn with people. 633 00:34:35,734 --> 00:34:38,734 I think that's an undefeatable argument. 634 00:34:38,734 --> 00:34:42,134 To be honest, if you're just like, look, I'm just not interested in that. 635 00:34:42,134 --> 00:34:42,954 Sorry. 636 00:34:42,954 --> 00:34:43,854 What are you going to do? 637 00:34:43,854 --> 00:34:48,544 What I would say is it's kind of related to what we were saying about JIT and 638 00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:50,332 psychological safety, I think. 639 00:34:50,528 --> 00:34:53,560 or maybe a different way to put it is. 640 00:34:55,926 --> 00:35:00,566 what psychologically say for me is not psychologically safe for the next person. 641 00:35:00,746 --> 00:35:06,416 And I think the problem with these debates on the internet or one of the problems is 642 00:35:06,416 --> 00:35:11,946 the rules of engagement are not necessarily discussed ahead of time. 643 00:35:12,686 --> 00:35:13,006 Right? 644 00:35:13,006 --> 00:35:17,356 So it's like, oh, some people think because you put the post in a public 645 00:35:17,356 --> 00:35:21,766 forum, I can say anything I like about that thing. 646 00:35:22,166 --> 00:35:24,556 And some people don't want to hear anything. 647 00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:25,978 They just want to 648 00:35:26,294 --> 00:35:28,594 speak and not be challenged. 649 00:35:28,734 --> 00:35:31,874 And then there's all the spectrum in between that. 650 00:35:32,094 --> 00:35:36,254 But no one has really explicitly said, here are my rules for engagement. 651 00:35:36,274 --> 00:35:39,314 When I post on LinkedIn, here's what I want you to do. 652 00:35:39,594 --> 00:35:42,474 Imagine if you had that preamble on every single post. 653 00:35:42,474 --> 00:35:46,614 Before we go any further, this is the rules of engagement. 654 00:35:46,754 --> 00:35:48,254 It'd just be hideous. 655 00:35:48,254 --> 00:35:48,902 So. 656 00:35:49,258 --> 00:35:53,938 But I, it would be hideous, but I also think that it's about picking the right 657 00:35:53,938 --> 00:35:54,878 medium. 658 00:35:54,878 --> 00:35:58,958 Like, not saying it's a free throw when you do that on LinkedIn, and it probably 659 00:35:58,958 --> 00:36:03,278 shouldn't be, like people should be a bit more respectful sometimes, but you are 660 00:36:03,278 --> 00:36:06,338 opening yourself up for that because you put it on LinkedIn. 661 00:36:06,358 --> 00:36:10,278 Like if you did it on maybe on a, on a community forum that has a code of conduct 662 00:36:10,278 --> 00:36:16,098 or some kind of rules in place, like you said, like the rules aren't defined for 663 00:36:16,098 --> 00:36:16,458 LinkedIn. 664 00:36:16,458 --> 00:36:17,838 There is no rules, right? 665 00:36:17,838 --> 00:36:18,890 It's like. 666 00:36:18,890 --> 00:36:24,120 The same for like, you know, Twitter or whatever, or you post it and you turn the 667 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,130 comments off. 668 00:36:25,130 --> 00:36:26,870 You know, like people do that on their YouTube videos. 669 00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:31,070 I've seen people turn comments off, or perhaps you post it on your blog instead 670 00:36:31,070 --> 00:36:34,290 and turn, turn the comments off. 671 00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:38,410 So I think sometimes it's a case of, if you just want to make a point. 672 00:36:38,410 --> 00:36:39,870 There's you can do that. 673 00:36:39,870 --> 00:36:42,950 If you want to engage, that's why I, when I mentioned about the texts that you put 674 00:36:42,950 --> 00:36:47,760 in it, you can frame your texts to invite that conversation in the manner that you 675 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,786 want it. 676 00:36:48,906 --> 00:36:53,226 Or you can write your post in a way that, and I obviously said this when people do 677 00:36:53,226 --> 00:36:55,176 public speaking for the first time, right? 678 00:36:55,176 --> 00:37:00,396 If you, if you want to have a great, a nice, not nice, but like an easier time 679 00:37:00,396 --> 00:37:03,146 with your first talk, talk about your experiences. 680 00:37:03,146 --> 00:37:05,386 Cause no one can tell you that you're wrong. 681 00:37:05,606 --> 00:37:10,836 So if you want to frame a conversation around, like you believe that checking is 682 00:37:10,836 --> 00:37:11,666 this right. 683 00:37:11,666 --> 00:37:14,666 You can talk about it from your experiences and then no one can really 684 00:37:14,666 --> 00:37:15,386 criticize you. 685 00:37:15,386 --> 00:37:17,226 Whereas if you write a post that says. 686 00:37:17,226 --> 00:37:19,246 All automated testing is checking. 687 00:37:19,246 --> 00:37:21,546 It's got nothing to do with testing whatsoever. 688 00:37:22,206 --> 00:37:23,386 Full stop. 689 00:37:24,806 --> 00:37:26,066 Yeah, that's it, right? 690 00:37:26,066 --> 00:37:27,236 You've offered no argument. 691 00:37:27,236 --> 00:37:28,566 You've offered no justification. 692 00:37:28,566 --> 00:37:29,386 You've not done anything. 693 00:37:29,386 --> 00:37:31,376 I think that's what tends to happen sometimes. 694 00:37:31,376 --> 00:37:36,566 We don't see enough of the, the reasons for posting and the shaping it in a way 695 00:37:36,566 --> 00:37:40,056 that's either going to invite conversation and then you get to define the rules or 696 00:37:40,056 --> 00:37:44,406 you should, in my opinion, at least hinder, hint at some of what you're 697 00:37:44,406 --> 00:37:45,526 looking for. 698 00:37:45,606 --> 00:37:47,114 Um, or. 699 00:37:47,114 --> 00:37:50,794 you write it in a way that's just, you know, you're basically saying, come at me. 700 00:37:50,794 --> 00:37:51,844 And sometimes that's what you want. 701 00:37:51,844 --> 00:37:52,714 I've done that. 702 00:37:52,714 --> 00:37:55,564 I've written stuff and gone, come on, just come at me. 703 00:37:55,564 --> 00:37:56,874 Come on, let's do it. 704 00:37:56,874 --> 00:37:57,538 Like. 705 00:37:57,628 --> 00:37:59,210 Come on then mate! 706 00:37:59,210 --> 00:37:59,830 Yeah. 707 00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:03,390 And sometimes though, that's a great topic of finding out information. 708 00:38:03,390 --> 00:38:06,130 Like I've done that in the past when I want to learn about a topic. 709 00:38:06,130 --> 00:38:09,800 You know, if I don't know a lot about a topic, you can use social media to be 710 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,450 like, you know, all testing is checking. 711 00:38:12,450 --> 00:38:14,760 Um, that's what I, that, you know, that's it. 712 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,890 And then someone will post saying, actually, I disagree. 713 00:38:16,890 --> 00:38:19,820 I think it's this and you go, Ooh, thank you for that blog post or whatever. 714 00:38:19,820 --> 00:38:20,030 Right. 715 00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:24,090 You, you can, you can shape it and you can manipulate social media to help you with 716 00:38:24,090 --> 00:38:25,570 whatever you're trying to do. 717 00:38:25,570 --> 00:38:27,510 But for me, I would rather. 718 00:38:27,563 --> 00:38:31,503 I could frame that differently and to avoid this nasty debate, I could be like, 719 00:38:31,503 --> 00:38:33,843 I don't know a lot about topic A. 720 00:38:33,843 --> 00:38:35,563 I'm keen to learn about topic A. 721 00:38:35,563 --> 00:38:39,883 My current thoughts on topic A are this, help me. 722 00:38:40,203 --> 00:38:40,783 Right? 723 00:38:40,783 --> 00:38:42,403 Now no one wants to go at me. 724 00:38:42,403 --> 00:38:43,862 No one's going to like come at me now. 725 00:38:43,862 --> 00:38:48,823 If they do come at me, they're going to do it in a, in a friendly, engaging manner, 726 00:38:48,823 --> 00:38:51,863 as opposed to, there'll still be people of course. 727 00:38:51,863 --> 00:38:52,054 Yeah. 728 00:38:52,054 --> 00:38:55,804 There'll be still potential for rowing in the comments because person A will come 729 00:38:55,804 --> 00:38:57,744 and say, hey, Rich, here's what you need to learn about this topic. 730 00:38:57,744 --> 00:39:00,134 And a person B will say, that is absolutely incorrect. 731 00:39:00,134 --> 00:39:01,934 No, you're setting them up for failure. 732 00:39:01,934 --> 00:39:02,754 This is what you need. 733 00:39:02,754 --> 00:39:05,834 So, but I like the way you phrase that was very nice. 734 00:39:05,834 --> 00:39:10,774 What I always go back to as ever, because it's me, is coaching. 735 00:39:11,354 --> 00:39:15,824 And what I find frustrating on both sides or all sides or however many people 736 00:39:15,824 --> 00:39:19,454 involved is there's quite often a lack of curiosity. 737 00:39:19,454 --> 00:39:20,876 I'd find that. 738 00:39:21,694 --> 00:39:22,794 Incredible. 739 00:39:22,794 --> 00:39:25,454 And I was listening to an episode. 740 00:39:25,454 --> 00:39:27,634 I'm going to be talking about this for years. 741 00:39:27,714 --> 00:39:31,394 So Adam Grant was on the diversity a couple of weeks. 742 00:39:32,254 --> 00:39:34,414 That episode was mega for me, man. 743 00:39:34,414 --> 00:39:36,774 So he talked. 744 00:39:36,774 --> 00:39:39,424 There were a couple of concepts on there that he talked about that I'm trying to 745 00:39:39,424 --> 00:39:40,294 dig into a bit more. 746 00:39:40,294 --> 00:39:42,574 One of them was. 747 00:39:43,894 --> 00:39:50,454 People talk either like, oh, I'm going to get it wrong, a politician. 748 00:39:51,286 --> 00:39:52,630 A priest. 749 00:39:54,324 --> 00:39:55,471 What's the other one? 750 00:39:55,761 --> 00:39:58,511 A preacher, a prosecutor, or a politician. 751 00:39:58,511 --> 00:40:04,701 So if you're in preacher mode, so these are the three modes that people spend too 752 00:40:04,701 --> 00:40:07,111 much time talking and thinking like. 753 00:40:07,335 --> 00:40:09,045 Oh, I think there's four, mate, there's four. 754 00:40:09,045 --> 00:40:10,545 I just had a quick Google. 755 00:40:10,545 --> 00:40:14,015 Well, there's preacher, which is when you're proselytizing your own ideas, just 756 00:40:14,015 --> 00:40:17,275 like preaching and just sharing, this is the only way. 757 00:40:17,275 --> 00:40:21,115 And then there's a prosecutor where you're like, you are wrong and your idea is 758 00:40:21,115 --> 00:40:22,095 trash. 759 00:40:22,095 --> 00:40:26,985 And then the other one is a politician, which is, well, I'm not going to answer 760 00:40:26,985 --> 00:40:30,661 the question straightly and I'm only going to speak to you if you agree with me. 761 00:40:33,191 --> 00:40:34,431 Uhhh... 762 00:40:34,623 --> 00:40:36,865 and so the way, what, what. 763 00:40:36,865 --> 00:40:38,655 more, there's the scientist. 764 00:40:38,931 --> 00:40:40,811 Well, this is, mate, spoilers, bro. 765 00:40:40,811 --> 00:40:41,371 What are you doing? 766 00:40:41,371 --> 00:40:42,721 Like, we did. 767 00:40:42,721 --> 00:40:43,491 did. 768 00:40:44,431 --> 00:40:45,571 No, you don't have to. 769 00:40:45,571 --> 00:40:51,671 But no, so the way to avoid that is to think like a scientist. 770 00:40:51,671 --> 00:40:57,831 And what that really means is that you don't let your ideas become your identity. 771 00:40:58,591 --> 00:41:03,291 And so there are two ways where you can avoid that. 772 00:41:03,291 --> 00:41:04,177 So one. 773 00:41:05,105 --> 00:41:06,675 at least according to Adam that is. 774 00:41:06,675 --> 00:41:11,019 So what Adam talks about is you can either... 775 00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:19,215 think that beliefs are important or values are important. 776 00:41:19,955 --> 00:41:25,015 Or you can either like base your identity in beliefs or values and beliefs are 777 00:41:25,015 --> 00:41:29,755 things that you think are true and values are things that you think are important. 778 00:41:29,935 --> 00:41:31,105 And why is that important? 779 00:41:31,105 --> 00:41:32,395 See what I did there. 780 00:41:32,475 --> 00:41:40,155 That's important because, that's important because if I base my identity in things 781 00:41:40,155 --> 00:41:43,123 that I think are true, if someone tells me that I'm wrong, 782 00:41:43,123 --> 00:41:44,463 That's a problem. 783 00:41:44,643 --> 00:41:46,043 That's a major problem. 784 00:41:46,043 --> 00:41:48,823 Like you are directly attacking my identity. 785 00:41:48,823 --> 00:41:54,703 Whereas if my identity is based in things that I think are important, if you tell me 786 00:41:54,703 --> 00:42:01,813 that I'm wrong, I'm like, oh, I need to know that because, you know, my goal is 787 00:42:01,813 --> 00:42:02,703 not to be right. 788 00:42:02,703 --> 00:42:05,343 My goal is to live up to my values. 789 00:42:05,443 --> 00:42:09,123 And so if I can do that in a better way, I need to know when I'm wrong. 790 00:42:09,123 --> 00:42:11,583 And so you're not threatened by being wrong. 791 00:42:11,583 --> 00:42:12,637 And so, 792 00:42:13,171 --> 00:42:18,491 When I look at some of the conversations that happen online and in person, it's too 793 00:42:18,491 --> 00:42:22,411 many people are trying to be right instead of trying to get right. 794 00:42:22,411 --> 00:42:28,041 That's the way I have a saying or I have a belief, which is I prefer getting right 795 00:42:28,041 --> 00:42:29,811 instead of being right. 796 00:42:29,951 --> 00:42:31,811 Like I want to get right. 797 00:42:32,971 --> 00:42:38,781 I know I can get right is by finding people I can trust ideally to tell me when 798 00:42:38,781 --> 00:42:41,551 I'm wrong, who have different perspectives to me. 799 00:42:41,551 --> 00:42:43,063 But when you look online, 800 00:42:43,507 --> 00:42:45,177 there's like an absence of curiosity. 801 00:42:45,177 --> 00:42:48,867 Like to your point, people will post something and either will not want to hear 802 00:42:48,867 --> 00:42:50,447 any feedback. 803 00:42:50,667 --> 00:42:55,837 They're not curious about any of the views or people are just like, you are wrong, 804 00:42:55,837 --> 00:42:56,027 Rich. 805 00:42:56,027 --> 00:42:57,727 What you said was incorrect. 806 00:42:57,727 --> 00:43:01,207 And there's no curiosity about how did you arrive at that conclusion? 807 00:43:02,027 --> 00:43:05,429 So yeah, that's what I think. 808 00:43:05,635 --> 00:43:07,935 you think you've made me think two ways there as well. 809 00:43:07,935 --> 00:43:12,495 So like the, that angle of you're wrong. 810 00:43:12,855 --> 00:43:14,945 There's two ways to respond to that, isn't there? 811 00:43:14,945 --> 00:43:17,355 The one is no, I'm not. 812 00:43:17,355 --> 00:43:18,715 You're wrong. 813 00:43:19,175 --> 00:43:23,495 Or the second one is tell me why you think I'm wrong. 814 00:43:23,495 --> 00:43:25,895 Like, you know, elaborate on it a little bit. 815 00:43:25,895 --> 00:43:30,535 Give me some, some of those insights, maybe the scientific, like maybe you're 816 00:43:30,535 --> 00:43:34,855 prompting that scientific kind of response as opposed to. 817 00:43:34,855 --> 00:43:38,945 Do you just believe this and you don't really know why, or is it one of your core 818 00:43:38,945 --> 00:43:42,235 beliefs that's just ingrained and you can't verbalize it very well anymore? 819 00:43:42,235 --> 00:43:45,265 Um, cause I had that same problem with teaching, right? 820 00:43:45,265 --> 00:43:47,095 You make seismic shifts in your thinking. 821 00:43:47,095 --> 00:43:50,955 It's quite hard to unravel it to teach somebody else. 822 00:43:50,955 --> 00:43:54,315 But if you engage in that, I mean, if you engage in a way that prompts, and I think 823 00:43:54,315 --> 00:43:57,745 that's the difference with the way people use, as you said, social media, it's 824 00:43:57,745 --> 00:44:00,519 either, like you said, those four like types. 825 00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:03,359 But also I think some people are just want to stick it out there. 826 00:44:03,359 --> 00:44:06,409 And like you said, they're not engaging in the responses, but it's like, well, why 827 00:44:06,409 --> 00:44:07,109 put it on LinkedIn? 828 00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:08,499 Just put it in a diary. 829 00:44:08,739 --> 00:44:13,899 Like, you know, if like, what, or, you know, if it's, if it's an inspirational 830 00:44:13,899 --> 00:44:17,299 thing that you want to share or whatever, put it somewhere that might have more 831 00:44:17,299 --> 00:44:18,299 longevity. 832 00:44:18,499 --> 00:44:22,249 You know, stick it on a blog, you know, stick it, I don't know, write, write an 833 00:44:22,249 --> 00:44:22,489 ebook. 834 00:44:22,489 --> 00:44:26,229 I don't know, but something that's going to live a lot longer than a day, right? 835 00:44:26,229 --> 00:44:28,745 Cause that's, that's the lifespan of LinkedIn. 836 00:44:29,135 --> 00:44:30,715 Like, you know, you can go find stuff. 837 00:44:30,715 --> 00:44:33,415 Of course you can, but most people don't. 838 00:44:33,415 --> 00:44:37,175 It's timeline, timeline, timeline, timeline gone. 839 00:44:37,415 --> 00:44:37,755 All right. 840 00:44:37,755 --> 00:44:41,665 And like, I think there's, there's, I think people need to, I'd love to 841 00:44:41,665 --> 00:44:44,385 encourage people basically to start thinking of the mediums a bit more. 842 00:44:44,385 --> 00:44:45,124 It's like blogging, right? 843 00:44:45,124 --> 00:44:48,415 I'd love, I want to, I keep telling myself blog again, like blogging died. 844 00:44:48,475 --> 00:44:49,215 It's not died. 845 00:44:49,215 --> 00:44:49,925 People still blog. 846 00:44:49,925 --> 00:44:50,145 Right. 847 00:44:50,145 --> 00:44:54,315 But I feel like in the testing space, there's less of it than they used to be. 848 00:44:54,315 --> 00:44:57,951 Um, and it's like, again, cause there's now obviously. 849 00:44:58,311 --> 00:45:02,881 you know, generation things like, there's probably a bunch of amazing testing 850 00:45:02,881 --> 00:45:03,881 content on TikTok, right? 851 00:45:03,881 --> 00:45:07,471 I don't use TikTok, but I'm sure there is younger testers. 852 00:45:07,471 --> 00:45:11,281 I'm not saying you don't have to be younger, but there's probably all sorts 853 00:45:11,281 --> 00:45:13,843 going on on there, but anyway, enough. 854 00:45:13,843 --> 00:45:18,863 You heard it here folks, Rich is gonna be on TikTok as of next week, dancing, 855 00:45:20,103 --> 00:45:23,163 dancing his ideas out about software testing. 856 00:45:23,163 --> 00:45:23,943 I'm here for it. 857 00:45:23,943 --> 00:45:26,207 That would make me get a TikTok account actually. 858 00:45:26,555 --> 00:45:32,885 So basically, whenever there's a debate on LinkedIn, we'll turn it into a dance and 859 00:45:32,885 --> 00:45:34,025 then we'll make that dance go viral. 860 00:45:34,025 --> 00:45:37,939 So we'll have the checking and testing dance. 861 00:45:37,939 --> 00:45:44,259 Here's the thing, we would definitely go viral with that for sure. 862 00:45:44,259 --> 00:45:47,249 I need to get Stu because Stu's my number one dance partner if you don't mind me 863 00:45:47,249 --> 00:45:47,659 saying. 864 00:45:47,659 --> 00:45:49,395 Stuart Day, the legend. 865 00:45:49,395 --> 00:45:51,555 can keep Stu as your dancing partner. 866 00:45:51,555 --> 00:45:53,195 That's fine by me. 867 00:45:53,435 --> 00:45:54,695 Anyway. 868 00:45:54,935 --> 00:45:55,715 All right. 869 00:45:55,715 --> 00:45:57,915 It's time to wrap this one up. 870 00:45:57,915 --> 00:46:03,035 So the things that we always people say you need to do on these things, subscribe 871 00:46:03,035 --> 00:46:07,175 and follow, share, like, comment, do all the things. 872 00:46:07,175 --> 00:46:11,705 Definitely comment friendly, conversational debate, debate, maybe one 873 00:46:11,705 --> 00:46:12,095 of the debates. 874 00:46:12,095 --> 00:46:14,715 But anyway, share your thoughts in the comments. 875 00:46:15,175 --> 00:46:17,031 It's a safe space to do so. 876 00:46:17,031 --> 00:46:21,371 to do so and we'd love to hear your thoughts as well and everything else and 877 00:46:21,371 --> 00:46:24,831 yeah we'll hear you in the next episode so yeah goodbye from me. 878 00:46:25,363 --> 00:46:26,683 Goodbye from me. 879 00:46:26,683 --> 00:46:27,963 See you folks.