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Welcome back to another episode
of the Startup Therapy podcast.

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This is Ryan Rutan, joined as
always by Will Schroeder, the

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founder and CEO of Startups.com.

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Will, let's start with a story.

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It's your story, but I'm
gonna start telling it.

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It starts with this
line: Founders do what

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others won't, so they
can do what others can't.

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Now, let me set the
stage, 'cause here's

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where that line got said.

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It wasn't in a boardroom.

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It wasn't on a stage.

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Will, you were probably standing
in a half-built master bedroom

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in your own new house, framing
an interior wall by hand.

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It's 15 degrees outside.

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It's Saturday at 6:00 in
the morning, and there's

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a young aspiring founder
standing next to you asking

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a very reasonable question.

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Maybe the most reasonable
question in the world Why

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are you doing this yourself?

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You could just hire someone.

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Now Will, you being you,
probably put down the nail

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gun and said, "Pull up a
chair and let old man Will

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explain something to you."
So today on the podcast, I

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want to talk through one of
the things, maybe the thing,

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that separates founders
from everybody else, and it

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may not be what you think.

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It's, it's not talent,
it's not the genius idea,

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it's not luck for sure.

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It's a willingness to do
the hard thing on purpose

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over and over and over
again- … when absolutely

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no reasonable person would.

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I'm Ryan Rutan, and that
guy over there somewhere in

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this screen is the guy who
frames blizzard, yeah, walls,

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uh, frames walls in his
house in blizzards for fun.

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Yeah.

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Let's talk about the price of
that, of that framing, Will.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So I, I love that opener.

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Okay, so this really was…
I mean, you've lived with me.

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You've been on site- Oh, yeah
… helping me build this house.

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But,

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um- I, I only come in the,
in the warm seasons though.

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I'm, I'm a shoulder- Yeah,
yeah, 'cause you're smart

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season guy.

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I'm not coming in
winter or summer.

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Yeah.

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But

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yeah, I mean, literally
it's 15 degrees outside.

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It's Ohio, and it's the, the
dead of winter of course,

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and it's Saturday at 6:00
AM, um, the crack of dawn,

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uh, barely light outside.

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And I, I had hired another
guy who, uh, was an aspiring

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founder, but also happened to
be an electrician, and knew

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his way around a building
to just give me a hand.

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You know, help me lift-
Yeah … heavy stuff.

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A- as we're talking about
it, 'cause we're b- we're

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building this, you know,
r- really beautiful house,

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and he's like, "But dude,
you're, you're literally

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framing this thing," not the
whole thing, I was framing

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a s- specific section- Yeah,
yeah … um, uh, "yourself.

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There's like no one else here."

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Uh-huh.

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"It's not like there's
a whole crew of people.

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You're-" Right … "the
only person-" You're just

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chipping in.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And he's, he's like, "Why?"
Like, like, "Why would you do…

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You could clearly pay someone
else to do it, right?" And

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that's when I was explaining to
him, I said, "Look, man, there

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are a certain class of people,
and maybe you're one of them,

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who are willing to do anything."

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And it… I remember I told
him this specifically as

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I was chattering 'cause
I was so freaking cold.

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I remember saying like, "Look,
man, um, there's nothing

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I'm not willing to do."

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Yeah.

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Right?

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"And that makes me dangerous."
And, you know, let me

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elaborate on that a little bit.

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Like, there's a condition
for a lot of people where

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there's a, a lot they're not
willing to withstand- Oh,

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yeah,

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yeah, yeah

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and I don't wanna call
that a vulnerability

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'cause it's actually
pretty reasonable, right?

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Yeah.

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There's people that won't
run through an actual fire

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like firemen do, right?

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Because it's super reasonable
to not wanna do that.

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Yeah.

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But thank God there
are people that do.

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Right.

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But, you know, there's,
they're few and far between.

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And I said, "In my mind,"
uh, and again, I've been

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doing this for a long time,
"it doesn't occur to me that

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you wouldn't do something."

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Yeah, yeah.

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Right?

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Like, if it needs to be done.

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I'll, I'll give you one

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example- Boundaries

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are meant to be crossed.

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Right.

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This would end up coming
up, like, months later.

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You remember, like, I, I bought
the, the, the Bobcat, right?

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For those of you that don't
understand, like a mini tractor.

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And I had the pallet forks
attached to it, and I was

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lifting this huge, huge,
uh, load and dumping it into

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a dumpster we had on site.

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Well, I forgot to lock it
down, so as I, I lift up this

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huge thing and I tilt the, the
pallet forks forward, the entire

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assembly falls off the front of
the, uh, the front of the Bobcat

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and into the trash, right?

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In the trash, yeah.

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In this full dumpster, right?

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A seven-foot tall dumpster.

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Yeah, exactly, right?

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And I immediately jump out and I
hurdle the side of the dumpster.

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I didn't even look to see
where I was jumping into,

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which I wouldn't recommend.

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Uh, and I'm going to retrieve
my pallet forks, which-

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Yeah … weigh all of,
like, 400 pounds, right?

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So I gotta figure out how
to get it out of there.

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And so, uh, my friend, a guy
who you obviously know, who was

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helping me out, was like, "I
remember watching you in that

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moment," 'cause, you know, he's,
he's, uh, helping out outside.

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Yeah.

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He's like, "You didn't hesitate
to jump into a frigging

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dumpster-" Yeah … right?

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To do whatever you needed to do.

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Just to

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get what needed
to be done, yeah.

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I was like, "Yeah, 'cause it
needed to be done," right?

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And I say all this as
a preamble to say, as

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founders, we've got a certain
willingness to do gnarly shit-

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Yeah

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… 
that other people simply
don't have, right?

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It's the same way like
people play in the NFL.

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You have to be okay
getting in a car accident

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every single weekend.

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Every- I'm not, right?

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Like- Yeah … I'm not okay
with that at all, right?

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But there are people-
Well, to be fair, that's

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a car accident we probably
wouldn't survive, Will.

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Those guys are built
slightly differently.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I'm also not, not built
like an NFL player.

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But, but I guess what I'm saying
is really a lot of what we'll

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talk about today is why is it
that some people are willing,

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and later on conditioned, to
accept the level of, of risk

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and pain and everything- Yeah

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else that comes with this,
and most people aren't?

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And then the kind of connective
tissue to that is that's

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why they get paid so much.

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Yep.

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That's why they get
the outsized rewards-

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Yep

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… 
because they have
that willingness.

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So if that's the case,
why are so many people so

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unwilling is the question.

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That is the difference, right?

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Because everybody has- Yeah
… the option to frame the wall

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themselves or dive- Yeah … in
the dumpster or- Yep … take

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the hit, but- Yep … almost
nobody takes it, right?

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Right.

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And that gap is sort of
the entire job description

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of a founder, right?

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That's exactly it.

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That willingness what
it is that we do.

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Right.

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Management was never the skill.

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The advantage- Right … was the
thing that you're willing to do

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the thing before you even know
what you're jumping into, right?

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Literally, the, you know, the
most people build a house.

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Will, you built a
house and a metaphor.

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That's really efficient.

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I appreciate that you provided
us with all this material.

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Right?

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But like you were willing to
jump into the dumpster without

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knowing what was inside,
and that is an absolutely

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perfect metaphor for what
it is that founders do.

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Right.

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I think what's interesting
about all of this is everyone

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looks at, you know, these
founders that have done

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extraordinarily well, and
they only see the, like, the

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output, which is, "Hey- Yeah

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I built big company," or,
"I've got, you know, private

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jet," or something like that.

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They don't understand why
they don't have it, right?

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And so a lot of people are like,
"Well, how do I get what w- you

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know, what you have, founder
person?" And it's like, dude,

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a- actually, you know what?

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I get asked this
all the time, right?

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You know, 'cause building a
big house- Yeah … a lot of

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contractors, I talk to all
of them 'cause I'm on site

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all the time, and they always
ask me, "Hey, man, like, you

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know, how do I get a house
like this?" And I'm like,

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"Honestly, it's dead simple."

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Uh-huh.

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All you have to do is spend
30 years doing nothing but

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working night and day, give
up all your relationships,

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give up your entire life,
and risk everything you have

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night and day, and it's easy.

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Practically shows up for itself.

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That's it.

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And they're like, "Oh, well,
I don't wanna do that."

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Yeah.

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N- never mind.

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It's fine.

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I, I don't want that.

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I don't blame you because
you're a reasonable person.

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And so- A big part of what
I talk about when I talk to,

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you know, aspiring founders
is the price of willingness.

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Like, that's really
what this is about.

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You said it in the
intro, which I thought

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was really appropriate.

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It's not like I've got
the best idea or I'm the

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smartest person, et cetera.

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It's I've got a willingness
to endure some gnarly shit

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over and over- Yeah … and
over for a really long time.

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Yeah.

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And it's like a lot of people
can run a 5K, but there's

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a reason very few people
make it past the finish

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line of a Ironman triathlon.

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Right.

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A lot of people can run.

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Yeah.

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Very few people, myself
included, can't run like that.

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Willing to just push through
all that you have to push

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through to do that, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Look, everybody wants
a destination, right?

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Yeah.

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But the price is the road, and
it's where 99% of people end up

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turning around at some point.

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And I think one of the, the
really interesting things

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about our space is that you
don't necessarily see the price

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when you enter into it, right?

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Like, say you wanna
become a doctor.

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You sort of know the price.

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There's med school, there's
the, the residency- Yeah

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… there's all this stuff, right?

245
00:07:40,509 --> 00:07:40,596
Which isn't insignificant.

246
00:07:40,596 --> 00:07:41,279
You kind of lay it out there.

247
00:07:41,469 --> 00:07:42,969
You sort of know- Yeah … what
you're gonna have to go through.

248
00:07:42,969 --> 00:07:44,649
A lot of other people
have gone through more

249
00:07:44,649 --> 00:07:46,199
or less the same thing.

250
00:07:46,479 --> 00:07:49,890
The founder journey is so,
so unique, and really, you

251
00:07:49,890 --> 00:07:52,439
know, the price of admission
isn't, isn't money, right?

252
00:07:52,439 --> 00:07:53,750
It's money you can raise.

253
00:07:54,220 --> 00:07:54,420
Yeah.

254
00:07:54,420 --> 00:07:56,889
The, the price is
uncertainty and- Uncertainty

255
00:07:56,889 --> 00:07:57,600
or, or certainty, I guess.

256
00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:58,189
The, the opposite.

257
00:07:58,189 --> 00:07:59,790
And, and nobody
can lend you that.

258
00:07:59,799 --> 00:08:01,979
You can't get that from
anywhere, and you just have

259
00:08:01,979 --> 00:08:04,679
to be willing to keep push,
as you keep saying, beyond

260
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:05,639
the point of reason, right?

261
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,459
Because reasonable people
are like, "You know what?

262
00:08:07,549 --> 00:08:09,419
We've been doing this for a
really long time, and you said

263
00:08:09,419 --> 00:08:10,420
it's around the next bend.

264
00:08:10,549 --> 00:08:13,110
We can't even see the bend yet."
Yeah. "So I think we're gonna

265
00:08:13,110 --> 00:08:14,309
head back the other direction.

266
00:08:14,489 --> 00:08:16,349
There was a gas station
back there, and they had

267
00:08:16,349 --> 00:08:18,769
snacks." "So we're gonna go
get some snacks." Like, fuck.

268
00:08:18,799 --> 00:08:20,809
Let's take a, a doctor's
path, for example, right?

269
00:08:20,809 --> 00:08:20,930
Sure.

270
00:08:20,930 --> 00:08:22,449
Which I have a tremendous
amount of respect for.

271
00:08:22,789 --> 00:08:24,589
It is long and arduous,
there's no question.

272
00:08:24,599 --> 00:08:24,779
Yep.

273
00:08:25,030 --> 00:08:26,189
But you know what the path is.

274
00:08:26,210 --> 00:08:26,889
It's certain.

275
00:08:27,210 --> 00:08:29,949
Imagine going through that
entire path, and at the end

276
00:08:29,949 --> 00:08:31,509
of it, you're not a doctor.

277
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:32,699
What am I now?

278
00:08:32,699 --> 00:08:33,939
After 12 years, what am I?

279
00:08:33,939 --> 00:08:35,689
And they just hand you, like,
a rubber hammer, and you're

280
00:08:35,689 --> 00:08:38,019
like, "You're… We don't
know." And you're like, "Oh."

281
00:08:38,030 --> 00:08:38,909
You're a carpenter now.

282
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:39,340
Shit.

283
00:08:39,340 --> 00:08:39,390
What?

284
00:08:39,390 --> 00:08:39,819
Yeah.

285
00:08:41,269 --> 00:08:41,739
What?

286
00:08:42,049 --> 00:08:44,899
When people try to, like,
make those comparisons, they

287
00:08:44,939 --> 00:08:47,659
always put it one-for-one with
the outcome being certain.

288
00:08:48,229 --> 00:08:50,119
They're like, "Oh, well, I
worked just as hard as you did,

289
00:08:50,389 --> 00:08:52,199
and here's what I got." Mm-hmm.

290
00:08:52,199 --> 00:08:54,199
I was like, "Well, you did.
I don't question the amount

291
00:08:54,199 --> 00:08:55,039
of work that takes." Yeah.

292
00:08:55,049 --> 00:08:57,439
I don't question the effort
it takes from someone to go

293
00:08:57,439 --> 00:08:59,510
th- through law school to
make it out on the other side.

294
00:08:59,710 --> 00:09:00,879
It's a lot of work, man.

295
00:09:00,909 --> 00:09:01,059
Yep.

296
00:09:01,109 --> 00:09:01,389
Right?

297
00:09:01,419 --> 00:09:04,179
And I don't… The difference
is you know what you're getting.

298
00:09:04,309 --> 00:09:05,879
There's a finish
line and a prize.

299
00:09:05,889 --> 00:09:06,229
Correct.

300
00:09:06,540 --> 00:09:06,740
Right?

301
00:09:06,740 --> 00:09:07,679
And it's the same every time.

302
00:09:08,536 --> 00:09:08,886
Right.

303
00:09:09,065 --> 00:09:12,185
And maybe in an undergrad
you don't hit your LSATs

304
00:09:12,216 --> 00:09:14,106
quite the way you thought you
would- Yeah … or your MCATs,

305
00:09:14,126 --> 00:09:14,846
you know, to go whatever.

306
00:09:14,925 --> 00:09:15,786
O- okay.

307
00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:18,476
But you know what
that's going to yield.

308
00:09:18,545 --> 00:09:22,025
And yes, you racked up debt,
but you knew exactly what

309
00:09:22,026 --> 00:09:23,085
your payment was gonna be.

310
00:09:23,096 --> 00:09:23,116
Yeah.

311
00:09:23,256 --> 00:09:26,145
And you knew that at some point
that debt would go away, right?

312
00:09:26,145 --> 00:09:28,125
Because you would ideally
make more money, et cetera.

313
00:09:28,506 --> 00:09:29,325
This is the opposite.

314
00:09:29,356 --> 00:09:32,105
I'm gonna rack up all the debt,
probably go completely bankrupt,

315
00:09:32,465 --> 00:09:34,116
and have nothing to show for it.

316
00:09:34,205 --> 00:09:34,766
Yeah, yeah.

317
00:09:34,766 --> 00:09:36,295
I don't have a
marketable degree.

318
00:09:36,506 --> 00:09:37,366
I have nothing.

319
00:09:37,725 --> 00:09:41,425
And that uncertainty is
a big part of the price.

320
00:09:41,425 --> 00:09:44,755
Now, I'm gonna put that as one
category of the price, right?

321
00:09:44,755 --> 00:09:46,295
Th- that again, a lot of
people don't see unless

322
00:09:46,295 --> 00:09:46,915
they've gone through it.

323
00:09:47,405 --> 00:09:52,346
Another category of the price
would be the amount of rejection

324
00:09:52,545 --> 00:09:53,995
that comes with this job-

325
00:09:54,215 --> 00:09:54,475
Yeah

326
00:09:54,675 --> 00:09:56,535
on a consistent basis.

327
00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:57,032
You know, it's constant.

328
00:09:57,032 --> 00:09:57,065
Do you

329
00:09:57,065 --> 00:09:59,045
like being wrong
most of the time?

330
00:09:59,055 --> 00:10:00,565
Well, y- We've got
just the job for you.

331
00:10:00,565 --> 00:10:01,555
Exactly, right?

332
00:10:01,945 --> 00:10:05,106
Now, like, again, let me compare
this to a, a med student.

333
00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:08,256
Med student's gotta, uh, crush
all kinds of tests, et cetera.

334
00:10:08,425 --> 00:10:08,645
Yeah.

335
00:10:08,655 --> 00:10:13,985
But you know for certain that if
you study and you answer A- Yeah

336
00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:15,565
and the answer is A-

337
00:10:15,805 --> 00:10:15,985
Yeah

338
00:10:15,985 --> 00:10:17,316
… 
you get an A, right?

339
00:10:17,325 --> 00:10:17,345
Yeah.

340
00:10:17,705 --> 00:10:20,455
How about every single
time you answer something,

341
00:10:20,465 --> 00:10:22,745
the answer's wrong no
matter how hard you worked?

342
00:10:22,746 --> 00:10:22,816
Yeah.

343
00:10:23,066 --> 00:10:23,685
Or, or there- Right?

344
00:10:23,685 --> 00:10:24,586
… mightn't even be an answer.

345
00:10:24,625 --> 00:10:25,575
There's just a question.

346
00:10:25,575 --> 00:10:25,615
Right.

347
00:10:25,615 --> 00:10:25,875
Right?

348
00:10:25,895 --> 00:10:27,766
And then there's, like, is
there an answer to this?

349
00:10:27,846 --> 00:10:28,375
We don't know.

350
00:10:28,375 --> 00:10:30,515
We just have to keep answering
until we find out, right?

351
00:10:30,566 --> 00:10:31,665
It's maddening.

352
00:10:32,055 --> 00:10:33,705
It's not even just
the uncertainty.

353
00:10:33,935 --> 00:10:35,925
It's the uncertainty
without even understanding

354
00:10:35,926 --> 00:10:37,816
whether there's an endgame
to the uncertainty.

355
00:10:37,825 --> 00:10:37,845
Yeah.

356
00:10:38,105 --> 00:10:38,355
Right?

357
00:10:38,386 --> 00:10:41,846
It'd be like studying for a
test that you never take, right?

358
00:10:41,846 --> 00:10:41,955
Right.

359
00:10:41,955 --> 00:10:42,505
You're just studying.

360
00:10:42,505 --> 00:10:44,206
They're like, "Yep,
there's no test." "Well,

361
00:10:44,206 --> 00:10:44,935
what did I study for?"

362
00:10:45,176 --> 00:10:45,645
"No reason."

363
00:10:45,695 --> 00:10:46,026
Yeah, yeah.

364
00:10:46,026 --> 00:10:46,425
"
I'm moving

365
00:10:46,426 --> 00:10:46,876
on." Don't worry.

366
00:10:46,876 --> 00:10:47,535
Just keep studying.

367
00:10:48,026 --> 00:10:49,376
It's like, o- okay.

368
00:10:49,655 --> 00:10:51,945
Or like I said, you
studied for the test.

369
00:10:51,965 --> 00:10:54,235
You got every answer
right on paper.

370
00:10:54,485 --> 00:10:54,795
Yeah.

371
00:10:54,935 --> 00:10:57,545
But when you handed it in,
every answer was wrong,

372
00:10:57,555 --> 00:10:59,416
and there's no way you
could've gotten it right.

373
00:10:59,425 --> 00:10:59,445
Um-

374
00:10:59,685 --> 00:11:00,835
You can't, and you
can't see it from the

375
00:11:00,835 --> 00:11:01,685
beginning either, right?

376
00:11:01,685 --> 00:11:03,735
I think that's the part
that, like, maybe just

377
00:11:03,755 --> 00:11:04,955
isn't all that clear.

378
00:11:05,742 --> 00:11:07,902
Like you can empty your
savings or pour all your

379
00:11:07,902 --> 00:11:10,422
time or whatever into an
idea, and that either becomes

380
00:11:10,422 --> 00:11:13,442
a really cool founding
story or a cautionary tale.

381
00:11:13,582 --> 00:11:15,482
You don't get to find
out which one for like

382
00:11:15,492 --> 00:11:16,872
years, maybe a decade.

383
00:11:16,872 --> 00:11:16,922
Right.

384
00:11:16,981 --> 00:11:19,012
Then, then you understand which
one of those two things it was.

385
00:11:19,462 --> 00:11:23,692
There are very few job paths,
career paths that actually

386
00:11:23,701 --> 00:11:27,082
have, if not no ending-
Yeah … or a negative ending.

387
00:11:27,252 --> 00:11:29,422
A lot of people are like, "Yeah,
well, I hate my job." Okay.

388
00:11:29,572 --> 00:11:30,511
But you get paid.

389
00:11:30,641 --> 00:11:30,671
Yep.

390
00:11:30,801 --> 00:11:31,161
Right?

391
00:11:31,262 --> 00:11:33,922
Like, it's not like on
Friday when paychecks come

392
00:11:33,922 --> 00:11:36,071
out, sometimes you get
paid, sometimes you don't.

393
00:11:36,071 --> 00:11:36,276
Yep.

394
00:11:36,276 --> 00:11:40,472
And if that ever happened once,
right, I don't care if you

395
00:11:40,472 --> 00:11:42,232
work at frigging Arby's, right?

396
00:11:42,381 --> 00:11:42,401
Yeah.

397
00:11:42,411 --> 00:11:44,032
You'd never go back
the next week- Don't go

398
00:11:44,032 --> 00:11:44,682
back … and do it again.

399
00:11:44,832 --> 00:11:45,042
Nope.

400
00:11:45,061 --> 00:11:47,081
You wouldn't be like, "Yeah,
I've been at Arby's for,

401
00:11:47,082 --> 00:11:49,002
like, about three or four
years now. It's been really

402
00:11:49,002 --> 00:11:50,811
tough. I'm really grinding,
and, you know, they haven't

403
00:11:50,811 --> 00:11:53,082
paid me yet, but, uh, you
know, I'm really hoping that,

404
00:11:53,091 --> 00:11:54,271
that this is gonna pay off."

405
00:11:54,411 --> 00:11:54,611
Yeah.

406
00:11:54,622 --> 00:11:56,962
Like, nobody would-
Nobody … ever do that.

407
00:11:56,962 --> 00:11:57,271
No.

408
00:11:57,501 --> 00:11:59,062
It doesn't even sound reason-
And- Like, no one would

409
00:11:59,071 --> 00:12:00,301
think that you should, right?

410
00:12:00,521 --> 00:12:01,481
I think that's what's- Correct.

411
00:12:01,512 --> 00:12:02,871
Right … what's so
insane about what we do.

412
00:12:03,381 --> 00:12:06,111
And so, like, again, when,
when people look at what we do

413
00:12:06,111 --> 00:12:09,642
as just the outcome, not the
input to get it, even people

414
00:12:09,642 --> 00:12:13,781
who I, I would argue are high
achievers in their own right,

415
00:12:13,861 --> 00:12:15,851
like, you know, again, an
attorney, a doctor, or whatever-

416
00:12:15,901 --> 00:12:16,191
Yeah

417
00:12:16,352 --> 00:12:20,131
they at least have a path
that has a very clear

418
00:12:20,131 --> 00:12:21,691
outcome and a reward.

419
00:12:21,691 --> 00:12:24,032
Maybe the reward isn't as
high as they wanted it to be.

420
00:12:24,051 --> 00:12:24,131
Yep.

421
00:12:24,151 --> 00:12:25,881
And, you know, I, I can't
speak to that 'cause

422
00:12:25,931 --> 00:12:27,171
individual expectations.

423
00:12:27,532 --> 00:12:31,152
But at least they knew there
was some level of reward.

424
00:12:31,422 --> 00:12:31,762
You know what?

425
00:12:31,762 --> 00:12:33,512
Stick on that for a second
because, uh, there's actually

426
00:12:33,512 --> 00:12:35,311
something really interesting
about the high achievers,

427
00:12:35,311 --> 00:12:37,761
and it's why I, I think you,
you actually see less high

428
00:12:37,761 --> 00:12:40,838
achievers, like the traditional
high achiever type- In the

429
00:12:40,838 --> 00:12:46,298
founder space because they were
used to a system that provided

430
00:12:46,338 --> 00:12:47,888
fairly near-term rewards.

431
00:12:47,908 --> 00:12:50,068
Take test, get grade, feel
good about grade, move on,

432
00:12:50,068 --> 00:12:52,367
take next test, get the
graduation, get the degree, get

433
00:12:52,388 --> 00:12:53,658
the job, just keep moving up.

434
00:12:53,668 --> 00:12:56,087
Like, they're in
that, like, relatively

435
00:12:56,088 --> 00:12:57,498
short-loop dopamine cycle.

436
00:12:57,507 --> 00:12:57,748
Mm-hmm.

437
00:12:57,748 --> 00:12:59,668
And, and I think that when you
look at the high achievers,

438
00:12:59,668 --> 00:13:00,458
you don't see as many of them.

439
00:13:00,458 --> 00:13:03,218
Now, a lot of founders achieve
a hell of a lot of stuff, but

440
00:13:03,228 --> 00:13:05,047
you and I both know plenty
of people who you never

441
00:13:05,048 --> 00:13:06,917
would've looked at and been
like, "Super high achiever."

442
00:13:07,167 --> 00:13:08,367
They're amazing founders.

443
00:13:08,777 --> 00:13:08,967
Yeah.

444
00:13:09,087 --> 00:13:09,197
Right?

445
00:13:09,227 --> 00:13:09,467
Yeah.

446
00:13:09,507 --> 00:13:10,617
Which goes back to what
we were saying at the top.

447
00:13:10,628 --> 00:13:13,907
Like, it isn't just about having
talent or genius or whatever.

448
00:13:14,207 --> 00:13:17,128
It's about having that
willingness to just

449
00:13:17,558 --> 00:13:18,937
keep going, right?

450
00:13:19,017 --> 00:13:20,077
It- Because most
people can answer.

451
00:13:20,087 --> 00:13:21,667
Like, we, we… I ask
founders all the time,

452
00:13:21,677 --> 00:13:22,558
like, "What do you want?"

453
00:13:22,637 --> 00:13:22,817
Right?

454
00:13:22,817 --> 00:13:23,068
"What is it?

455
00:13:23,078 --> 00:13:23,608
What do you want?

456
00:13:23,608 --> 00:13:24,317
What are you trying
to do with this?

457
00:13:24,317 --> 00:13:25,917
And what is it you're
actually trying to achieve?

458
00:13:25,957 --> 00:13:27,457
I know you wanna build a
business, but, like, what

459
00:13:27,457 --> 00:13:29,217
behind that?" Instant answer.

460
00:13:29,247 --> 00:13:30,918
Like, they almost always
have exactly what it is

461
00:13:30,918 --> 00:13:33,117
they think they want, the
goal, the, the outcome.

462
00:13:33,617 --> 00:13:33,827
Right.

463
00:13:33,828 --> 00:13:35,697
And you ask, "What'll
you give up for it?"

464
00:13:35,697 --> 00:13:37,687
And all of a sudden people are,
like, checking their phones.

465
00:13:37,687 --> 00:13:39,038
They're doing anything
but looking me in the

466
00:13:39,038 --> 00:13:39,487
eyes and answering.

467
00:13:39,488 --> 00:13:41,658
At that point they're like,
"Oh, I, I don't, I don't

468
00:13:41,658 --> 00:13:42,578
know about that part yet."

469
00:13:42,887 --> 00:13:43,347
Yeah, yeah.

470
00:13:43,367 --> 00:13:45,238
I don't wanna pay the price,
but I d- fine with the paycheck.

471
00:13:45,587 --> 00:13:48,558
But I think what people also
miss, when they do these founder

472
00:13:48,558 --> 00:13:50,727
stories, and there's, you know,
it's always the same story.

473
00:13:50,727 --> 00:13:53,708
It's, "I came from nothing.
I, you know, hardship, then

474
00:13:53,708 --> 00:13:55,687
moment, and then everything
went well." Like, the, it's

475
00:13:55,697 --> 00:13:56,887
always the same arc, right?

476
00:13:57,308 --> 00:14:01,517
What gets lost on those stories
is we often look at that time

477
00:14:01,517 --> 00:14:04,807
of hardship as just this,
like, snap moment in time.

478
00:14:04,817 --> 00:14:06,831
Mm. And you hear the founder
say something like, you know,

479
00:14:06,831 --> 00:14:09,517
"W- we burned through all
of our savings," as if they

480
00:14:09,517 --> 00:14:12,217
just walked into the bank,
wrote a check for all their

481
00:14:12,217 --> 00:14:13,647
savings to somebody, right?

482
00:14:13,897 --> 00:14:15,777
And that was the entire moment.

483
00:14:16,107 --> 00:14:16,407
Yeah, yeah.

484
00:14:16,407 --> 00:14:18,316
I was like, "Dude- Not exactly.

485
00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:23,436
Like- There were so many brutal
traumatizing moments along

486
00:14:23,436 --> 00:14:26,055
the way, and a lot of stuff
people don't talk about when

487
00:14:26,056 --> 00:14:28,015
they do those really, you know,
those great- Sure … origin

488
00:14:28,016 --> 00:14:31,806
stories, like the relationships
that they lost, the depression

489
00:14:31,806 --> 00:14:33,036
they went through, like- Yeah

490
00:14:33,096 --> 00:14:36,185
really hard PTSD level stuff.

491
00:14:36,486 --> 00:14:37,805
Sometimes added together, right?

492
00:14:37,806 --> 00:14:39,195
It's not like, "Well,
pick one." Yeah.

493
00:14:39,195 --> 00:14:39,385
Right?

494
00:14:39,385 --> 00:14:41,795
It's like- Yeah … "No, no,
you get to draw as many of these

495
00:14:41,795 --> 00:14:43,946
as you'd like. A- actually- You
bet … you get to draw them all

496
00:14:43,946 --> 00:14:44,816
whether you like them or not."

497
00:14:45,326 --> 00:14:45,795
Yeah, yeah.

498
00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:49,025
The thing is, it's happening
every single day, day

499
00:14:49,056 --> 00:14:50,735
after day after day.

500
00:14:51,265 --> 00:14:55,496
And I think for folks that
just don't have the tenacity

501
00:14:55,496 --> 00:14:57,686
for this- Yeah … they
look at that, and they're

502
00:14:57,686 --> 00:14:59,635
like, "Yeah, I'm not…
That… Fuck this." Right?

503
00:14:59,646 --> 00:14:59,836
Yeah.

504
00:14:59,885 --> 00:15:02,215
And again, I would go back
to you fall into a category

505
00:15:02,215 --> 00:15:03,046
of reasonable people.

506
00:15:03,046 --> 00:15:04,746
I, I'm not, I'm not pointing
your finger like, "Hey,

507
00:15:04,746 --> 00:15:06,245
you're not good enough."
I'm like, "No, that's

508
00:15:06,245 --> 00:15:07,216
actually a pretty reasonable

509
00:15:07,216 --> 00:15:07,485
response."

510
00:15:07,486 --> 00:15:07,506
Yeah.

511
00:15:07,506 --> 00:15:08,745
You just, you fit
somewhere else.

512
00:15:09,285 --> 00:15:09,635
Yeah.

513
00:15:09,695 --> 00:15:12,296
We had a guy working on site
at one point, and, um, he's a

514
00:15:12,296 --> 00:15:14,895
framer of all things, and he
was afraid of heights, which

515
00:15:14,896 --> 00:15:16,425
is odd if you're a framer,
right- Yeah … 'cause you

516
00:15:16,435 --> 00:15:17,536
go up multiple levels, right?

517
00:15:17,885 --> 00:15:18,225
Uh- I

518
00:15:18,355 --> 00:15:20,666
specialize in ranch
homes, flat roofs.

519
00:15:22,055 --> 00:15:22,455
Teepees.

520
00:15:22,976 --> 00:15:25,595
I was like, "Honestly,
that's a very reasonable

521
00:15:25,605 --> 00:15:26,745
thing to be afraid of-

522
00:15:26,965 --> 00:15:27,205
Yeah

523
00:15:27,205 --> 00:15:28,435
because it's high, right?

524
00:15:28,435 --> 00:15:28,730
Yeah.

525
00:15:28,730 --> 00:15:29,885
Like, it's dangerous, right?

526
00:15:29,885 --> 00:15:29,945
It's

527
00:15:29,945 --> 00:15:30,475
dangerous.

528
00:15:30,936 --> 00:15:31,116
Yeah.

529
00:15:31,355 --> 00:15:31,885
It, it- It'll kill you.

530
00:15:32,285 --> 00:15:34,366
Yeah, and those rafters are
covered with snow right now.

531
00:15:34,656 --> 00:15:36,345
And so I look at the same way.

532
00:15:36,345 --> 00:15:39,605
I'm like, "Look, you know, what
founders do, to, to be afraid

533
00:15:39,605 --> 00:15:42,475
of doing that or unwilling to do
that is a very rational thing."

534
00:15:42,845 --> 00:15:45,246
Again, I said firefighters,
you know, run into a fire.

535
00:15:45,425 --> 00:15:47,495
Military runs at fire, you
know, like- Yeah … people

536
00:15:47,506 --> 00:15:48,695
firing at them, right?

537
00:15:49,055 --> 00:15:50,865
The irrational person
is the person that's

538
00:15:50,875 --> 00:15:51,855
willing to do that.

539
00:15:52,393 --> 00:15:52,643
Right?

540
00:15:52,804 --> 00:15:55,883
The rational person's
like, "No, thank you. Maybe

541
00:15:55,883 --> 00:15:57,843
someone else." But here's
what gets interesting.

542
00:15:58,373 --> 00:16:01,933
Once you start to build
that muscle, and I would

543
00:16:01,933 --> 00:16:04,043
equate this to, like, a
distance athlete, et cetera.

544
00:16:04,334 --> 00:16:06,694
You know, once the distance
athlete, like a triathlete,

545
00:16:06,944 --> 00:16:09,133
has realized that they
can make it past this-

546
00:16:09,133 --> 00:16:10,723
Yeah, yeah … milestone,
this milestone, this, this

547
00:16:10,723 --> 00:16:13,814
milestone, it also puts them
on the other side of things.

548
00:16:13,904 --> 00:16:17,723
If they really realize what
this means, "Hey, I've got a

549
00:16:17,723 --> 00:16:19,063
gear most people don't have."

550
00:16:19,373 --> 00:16:19,743
Yeah.

551
00:16:20,233 --> 00:16:23,123
"
I'm willing to do shit
most people aren't

552
00:16:23,123 --> 00:16:24,274
willing to do," right?

553
00:16:24,293 --> 00:16:24,513
Yes.

554
00:16:25,013 --> 00:16:28,573
That puts me in a different
class of competitors-

555
00:16:28,964 --> 00:16:29,134
Yeah

556
00:16:29,154 --> 00:16:30,424
… 
than everybody else.

557
00:16:30,743 --> 00:16:32,583
The problem is, for most
people, until you do it,

558
00:16:32,584 --> 00:16:33,313
you don't really know.

559
00:16:33,633 --> 00:16:33,863
Right.

560
00:16:33,863 --> 00:16:34,043
Right?

561
00:16:34,043 --> 00:16:36,663
Like, I can say I'm gonna go
do a triathlon, but- … until

562
00:16:36,663 --> 00:16:38,883
I cross that finish line,
I don't actually know.

563
00:16:38,883 --> 00:16:38,917
Yeah.

564
00:16:38,917 --> 00:16:38,985
I don't

565
00:16:38,985 --> 00:16:39,019
actually

566
00:16:39,019 --> 00:16:39,053
know.

567
00:16:39,053 --> 00:16:40,723
Not hard to sign
up for a triathlon.

568
00:16:41,093 --> 00:16:41,473
It's not.

569
00:16:41,523 --> 00:16:41,823
Yeah.

570
00:16:41,873 --> 00:16:44,023
And so I think f- uh, same with,
you know, starting a startup.

571
00:16:44,023 --> 00:16:45,133
You're like, "Ah, I'm gonna-
Yep … do a startup."

572
00:16:45,404 --> 00:16:46,283
Eh, good luck with that.

573
00:16:46,453 --> 00:16:48,193
And, and I genuinely
mean good luck with that.

574
00:16:48,253 --> 00:16:48,443
Yes.

575
00:16:48,473 --> 00:16:51,263
But I also mean, like,
starting is the easy part.

576
00:16:51,513 --> 00:16:51,564
Yep.

577
00:16:51,803 --> 00:16:53,443
It's finishing it
that's pretty expensive.

578
00:16:53,793 --> 00:16:56,463
But I think when people
trivialize the amount of

579
00:16:56,543 --> 00:16:58,523
effort that goes into s-
again, 'cause th- Yeah

580
00:16:58,543 --> 00:17:01,413
they look back and they're
like, "Well, it couldn't have

581
00:17:01,414 --> 00:17:03,524
been that hard," or, you know,
"It couldn't have been that

582
00:17:03,524 --> 00:17:05,873
risky," or, "It couldn't have
been that whatever," or you

583
00:17:05,874 --> 00:17:06,963
wouldn't have kept doing it.

584
00:17:07,404 --> 00:17:08,433
Oh, but it was.

585
00:17:08,453 --> 00:17:08,673
Or the opposite.

586
00:17:08,933 --> 00:17:09,293
Yeah,

587
00:17:10,153 --> 00:17:10,223
yeah.

588
00:17:10,353 --> 00:17:10,463
And

589
00:17:10,463 --> 00:17:10,553
I

590
00:17:10,554 --> 00:17:11,083
did, right?

591
00:17:11,083 --> 00:17:11,123
And I did, right?

592
00:17:11,123 --> 00:17:12,653
That's what makes it
something special, right?

593
00:17:12,653 --> 00:17:12,884
Yeah, yeah.

594
00:17:12,884 --> 00:17:14,723
That's why we get
asymmetric rewards.

595
00:17:14,723 --> 00:17:16,423
That's why very
few people do it.

596
00:17:16,433 --> 00:17:18,234
That's why failure rate
for startups is so high.

597
00:17:18,234 --> 00:17:18,414
Y-

598
00:17:18,883 --> 00:17:20,424
you know who doesn't
question that?

599
00:17:20,554 --> 00:17:21,203
Other founders.

600
00:17:21,484 --> 00:17:21,654
Yeah,

601
00:17:22,744 --> 00:17:22,764
yeah.

602
00:17:22,843 --> 00:17:25,003
So, you know, we do all these
different founder groups and

603
00:17:25,003 --> 00:17:27,473
I, and I've run these groups
for a long time, and one of

604
00:17:27,473 --> 00:17:30,024
the cool things, one of the
coolest things really, is when

605
00:17:30,024 --> 00:17:31,623
we're in the founder groups,
the live founder groups, like

606
00:17:31,624 --> 00:17:34,003
in person, and there's eight
founders around the room,

607
00:17:34,003 --> 00:17:35,813
or sometimes more, sometimes
30 founders in a room.

608
00:17:35,813 --> 00:17:36,043
Yeah.

609
00:17:36,533 --> 00:17:39,033
And one of the founders,
you know, we prompt them on

610
00:17:39,033 --> 00:17:40,663
this, uh, raised their hand
and said, "You know, here,

611
00:17:40,703 --> 00:17:42,033
here's something I'd like
to share, like, you know,

612
00:17:42,073 --> 00:17:44,184
a, a high-five moment that
I'm really proud of," right?

613
00:17:44,423 --> 00:17:47,324
It's not just how every
other founder responds

614
00:17:47,324 --> 00:17:48,204
wh- when they hear that.

615
00:17:48,543 --> 00:17:52,273
It's how that founder, often
for the first time, is finally

616
00:17:52,273 --> 00:17:54,493
in a room that genuinely
appreciates what they just did.

617
00:17:54,493 --> 00:17:54,743
Yeah.

618
00:17:55,404 --> 00:17:55,744
Right?

619
00:17:55,744 --> 00:17:56,023
Yep.

620
00:17:56,023 --> 00:17:57,113
And it goes the other way, too.

621
00:17:57,303 --> 00:17:59,733
When someone in the room, one
of the founders, is sharing and

622
00:17:59,733 --> 00:18:01,684
it's something super brutally
hard, maybe they're shutting

623
00:18:01,684 --> 00:18:04,514
down the business or, you know,
or something else, every person

624
00:18:04,514 --> 00:18:07,464
in the room really appreciates
what that actually means.

625
00:18:07,464 --> 00:18:07,524
Yeah.

626
00:18:07,524 --> 00:18:08,733
Yeah, what that
actually represents.

627
00:18:08,733 --> 00:18:08,764
Y- y-

628
00:18:09,104 --> 00:18:10,083
you, you bet.

629
00:18:10,363 --> 00:18:12,633
And when things aren't going
well, when things, you know,

630
00:18:12,634 --> 00:18:14,844
go the opposite direction, the
founder's shutting things down

631
00:18:14,844 --> 00:18:17,873
or whatever else like that, I
always remind that founder at

632
00:18:17,873 --> 00:18:21,068
that moment, I said, "Remember
this moment." Because there's

633
00:18:21,068 --> 00:18:23,808
gonna be a time when you're
telling your origin story-

634
00:18:23,898 --> 00:18:24,098
Mm

635
00:18:24,148 --> 00:18:26,448
right, how you came back from
this and how you built this,

636
00:18:26,468 --> 00:18:27,978
and to be fair, many, many do.

637
00:18:28,358 --> 00:18:30,198
Remember this feeling.

638
00:18:30,558 --> 00:18:32,648
When someone says,
"It must be nice."

639
00:18:33,008 --> 00:18:33,228
Yeah.

640
00:18:33,268 --> 00:18:33,568
Right?

641
00:18:33,868 --> 00:18:37,587
And I implore you to make
sure you remember this moment

642
00:18:37,597 --> 00:18:39,498
when you're mouthing the
words, "Go fuck yourself."

643
00:18:39,517 --> 00:18:39,777
Yeah.

644
00:18:42,707 --> 00:18:43,627
That's exactly it,

645
00:18:43,627 --> 00:18:43,877
man.

646
00:18:43,887 --> 00:18:43,917
Yes.

647
00:18:44,097 --> 00:18:44,927
That's kind of it, right?

648
00:18:44,927 --> 00:18:45,177
God.

649
00:18:45,177 --> 00:18:46,808
And now, well, you know, when
I think about the founder

650
00:18:46,808 --> 00:18:49,217
space, like, yeah, it just
would… People ask us all

651
00:18:49,218 --> 00:18:50,537
the time, I'm sure you get
the same question, is like,

652
00:18:50,538 --> 00:18:52,547
"What does it take to be a
good founder?" What, what does

653
00:18:52,548 --> 00:18:53,487
it take to be a good founder?

654
00:18:53,508 --> 00:18:57,928
And man, I would take a
person of average talent with

655
00:18:57,928 --> 00:19:02,477
an absolutely unreasonable
willingness to just do,

656
00:19:02,898 --> 00:19:05,207
over some genius who needs
perfect conditions, right?

657
00:19:05,207 --> 00:19:06,437
So the person- Yep … who's
like, they're, they're trying

658
00:19:06,437 --> 00:19:07,817
to perfect it, they're,
they're lab benching,

659
00:19:07,817 --> 00:19:08,537
they're doing whatever.

660
00:19:08,828 --> 00:19:10,818
And I'd do that every single
time because willingness,

661
00:19:10,857 --> 00:19:12,388
willingness compounds.

662
00:19:12,828 --> 00:19:14,598
Talent just sits there-
Huh … waiting to be motivated,

663
00:19:14,757 --> 00:19:17,967
but willingness just gets
out there and just does shit,

664
00:19:18,107 --> 00:19:21,497
which always, always, always a
benefit to a startup company.

665
00:19:22,137 --> 00:19:24,837
You know, something that's
really funny about everything

666
00:19:24,837 --> 00:19:28,297
we talk about here is
that none of it is new.

667
00:19:28,548 --> 00:19:31,087
Everything you're dealing
with right now has been done a

668
00:19:31,228 --> 00:19:34,938
thousand times before you, which
means the answer already exists.

669
00:19:34,947 --> 00:19:36,877
You may just not know
it, but that's okay.

670
00:19:37,188 --> 00:19:39,007
That's kind of what
we're here to do.

671
00:19:39,048 --> 00:19:41,688
We talk about this stuff on
the show, but we actually

672
00:19:41,688 --> 00:19:45,757
solve these problems all day
long at groups.startups.com.

673
00:19:45,898 --> 00:19:49,137
So if any of this sounds
familiar, stop guessing

674
00:19:49,197 --> 00:19:50,177
about what to do.

675
00:19:50,427 --> 00:19:53,578
Let us just give you the answers
to the test and be done with it.

676
00:19:54,067 --> 00:19:55,918
I gotta tell you, this is,
this is gonna sound like an,

677
00:19:55,947 --> 00:19:59,387
a odd high-five to someone,
but someone who has that

678
00:19:59,387 --> 00:20:02,637
tenacity and is where they are
because of their tenacity- Yeah

679
00:20:02,637 --> 00:20:04,378
and some of the people that,
that watch this, uh, knows,

680
00:20:04,707 --> 00:20:06,507
is Jason Calacanis, right?

681
00:20:06,508 --> 00:20:06,997
Oh, yeah.

682
00:20:07,218 --> 00:20:09,648
Now, now, a lot of people don't
know where Jason came from.

683
00:20:09,777 --> 00:20:10,077
Yes.

684
00:20:10,097 --> 00:20:10,367
Right?

685
00:20:10,517 --> 00:20:13,047
But Jason was not silver
spooned by any means.

686
00:20:13,127 --> 00:20:13,387
Nope.

687
00:20:13,457 --> 00:20:15,097
And I remember, this
is, God, this has to be

688
00:20:15,097 --> 00:20:17,047
like 20, 25 years ago.

689
00:20:17,407 --> 00:20:19,177
I'm in Santa Monica, I'd
just gotten there for the

690
00:20:19,177 --> 00:20:22,107
first time, and, uh, Jason
Nazar was interviewing-

691
00:20:22,218 --> 00:20:22,448
Yeah

692
00:20:22,487 --> 00:20:24,268
Jason Calacanis on stage.

693
00:20:24,527 --> 00:20:26,528
And it, there's maybe 80
people in the audience, right?

694
00:20:26,587 --> 00:20:28,737
And I, I'd met Jason a
couple times before, but

695
00:20:28,738 --> 00:20:29,397
I didn't know him well.

696
00:20:29,727 --> 00:20:32,408
But Jason Nazar is a phenomenal
interviewer, uh, which is

697
00:20:32,408 --> 00:20:34,167
ironic 'cause he's interviewing
a guy who's gonna end up

698
00:20:34,307 --> 00:20:35,107
interviewing everybody.

699
00:20:35,328 --> 00:20:37,108
And, um, Calacanis
gets up there.

700
00:20:37,298 --> 00:20:40,347
He tells this story
about where he came from.

701
00:20:40,378 --> 00:20:41,747
I think he said- Mm … like,
dad, if I can remember the

702
00:20:41,747 --> 00:20:43,768
story, his, his dad was like
a bar owner in New York or

703
00:20:43,768 --> 00:20:45,907
something like that, and
kinda came up like a rough

704
00:20:45,908 --> 00:20:47,308
and tumble kinda in a way.

705
00:20:47,308 --> 00:20:47,457
Yeah.

706
00:20:48,152 --> 00:20:52,312
And fast-forward to today,
Jason's on a very popular

707
00:20:52,312 --> 00:20:54,612
podcast with all billionaires.

708
00:20:54,812 --> 00:20:55,101
Yeah.

709
00:20:55,372 --> 00:21:00,002
And think about what he had to
do to make that happen, right?

710
00:21:00,002 --> 00:21:00,532
Yeah.

711
00:21:00,532 --> 00:21:03,202
And Jason's got a big
personality, right?

712
00:21:03,202 --> 00:21:06,132
He's actually a surprisingly
kind guy, but, uh, given

713
00:21:06,132 --> 00:21:08,461
his personality, he's, you
know, uh, pretty gruff.

714
00:21:08,591 --> 00:21:12,272
But he got there through
pure fucking hustle.

715
00:21:12,272 --> 00:21:12,921
He's smart.

716
00:21:12,931 --> 00:21:12,951
Yeah.

717
00:21:13,041 --> 00:21:13,562
He is smart.

718
00:21:13,562 --> 00:21:13,662
Yeah.

719
00:21:13,681 --> 00:21:15,701
I'm not, not, not taking that
away from him, but that's not

720
00:21:15,701 --> 00:21:16,712
how he got there, because- You

721
00:21:16,712 --> 00:21:18,581
can be smart and not have
hustle and go nowhere.

722
00:21:18,851 --> 00:21:21,672
Do you know that back in the day
when Jason was doing Silicon,

723
00:21:21,701 --> 00:21:23,851
uh, Alley Reporter, which
was, like, you know- Uh-huh

724
00:21:23,912 --> 00:21:25,112
… way, like, the '90s, right?

725
00:21:25,112 --> 00:21:25,961
This is like- Yeah … the '90s.

726
00:21:26,252 --> 00:21:29,151
He was running around New
York dropping off printed

727
00:21:29,151 --> 00:21:32,131
copies of his publication
at offices, right?

728
00:21:32,131 --> 00:21:34,801
I mean, that, like, pure
frigging hustle, right?

729
00:21:34,811 --> 00:21:34,851
I love

730
00:21:34,851 --> 00:21:35,111
it, man.

731
00:21:35,511 --> 00:21:37,942
And I remember when we
bought Zirtual, Jason was

732
00:21:37,942 --> 00:21:39,362
on the cap table of Zirtual.

733
00:21:39,362 --> 00:21:39,392
Yeah.

734
00:21:39,392 --> 00:21:40,531
He was an investor in Zirtual.

735
00:21:40,851 --> 00:21:44,372
And Jason and I were at
breakfast, like, uh, af-

736
00:21:44,401 --> 00:21:45,182
after we'd done the deal.

737
00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:46,792
We were at breakfast
in San Francisco.

738
00:21:47,131 --> 00:21:50,451
I swear it was Christmas Eve,
for as bizarre as that sounds.

739
00:21:50,451 --> 00:21:52,811
Like, uh, uh, whatever, uh,
whatever to do it, right?

740
00:21:53,151 --> 00:21:56,161
And Jason was like, "Will,
what I love about you is you've

741
00:21:56,162 --> 00:21:58,221
just got this hustle," right?

742
00:21:58,281 --> 00:22:00,101
Like, this, you
know, like this grit.

743
00:22:00,562 --> 00:22:02,881
And I was like, "Jason,
you've got the hustle." Yeah.

744
00:22:03,441 --> 00:22:04,091
Like, and I was- That's what

745
00:22:04,091 --> 00:22:04,741
I love about you.

746
00:22:04,961 --> 00:22:05,821
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

747
00:22:05,821 --> 00:22:06,211
Yeah.

748
00:22:06,211 --> 00:22:07,381
Yeah, and I just, um-

749
00:22:07,391 --> 00:22:08,112
We must be founders.

750
00:22:08,412 --> 00:22:08,801
Yeah, yeah.

751
00:22:09,031 --> 00:22:09,691
Well, well, that's
what I'm saying.

752
00:22:09,691 --> 00:22:11,572
So it was just, like, two
founders just, like, like,

753
00:22:11,572 --> 00:22:15,151
uh, you know, just recognizing
what it took to get there.

754
00:22:15,211 --> 00:22:18,551
It's interesting to me, because
for someone like Jason, who

755
00:22:18,621 --> 00:22:21,402
ended up getting… And when
I say ended up, I mean that

756
00:22:21,402 --> 00:22:23,601
was the outcome, not like it,
uh, like he didn't earn it.

757
00:22:24,011 --> 00:22:25,541
Had an asymmetric reward.

758
00:22:25,561 --> 00:22:27,071
You know, f- for, for
those of you that aren't

759
00:22:27,071 --> 00:22:29,501
super familiar, Jason was,
like, in the seed investor

760
00:22:29,711 --> 00:22:32,261
team for, um, Uber, right?

761
00:22:32,272 --> 00:22:32,292
Yeah.

762
00:22:32,302 --> 00:22:34,961
Which was, at the time,
maybe one of the greatest

763
00:22:34,961 --> 00:22:36,251
investments there were, right?

764
00:22:36,251 --> 00:22:38,421
And, and if I recall, he
brought Sequoia on board and,

765
00:22:38,421 --> 00:22:39,481
and all this other stuff.

766
00:22:39,831 --> 00:22:42,411
But that hustle put
him in the room, right?

767
00:22:42,421 --> 00:22:42,441
Yeah.

768
00:22:42,441 --> 00:22:44,522
Jason didn't have the
money back then to make

769
00:22:44,522 --> 00:22:46,751
those kind of investments,
but after that he did.

770
00:22:46,781 --> 00:22:48,761
And that- Yeah … which is
how he became, you know, the

771
00:22:48,761 --> 00:22:49,971
Jason that we know today.

772
00:22:50,391 --> 00:22:53,452
But what's interesting
about that is Jason hustled.

773
00:22:53,511 --> 00:22:55,302
Jason did really hard
shit that other people

774
00:22:55,302 --> 00:22:56,081
weren't willing to do.

775
00:22:56,142 --> 00:22:56,412
Yeah.

776
00:22:56,761 --> 00:22:59,422
Because of that, through Uber
and then other investments after

777
00:22:59,422 --> 00:23:01,091
that, got this massive reward.

778
00:23:01,282 --> 00:23:03,782
Now, there's gonna be
some number of people that

779
00:23:03,782 --> 00:23:04,481
say he didn't deserve it.

780
00:23:05,142 --> 00:23:05,332
Right?

781
00:23:05,332 --> 00:23:06,862
Like he doesn't deserve
that wealth, he doesn't

782
00:23:06,862 --> 00:23:07,822
deserve that whatever.

783
00:23:08,052 --> 00:23:08,172
Yeah.

784
00:23:08,172 --> 00:23:10,622
And I'm like, a- and again,
uh, it's not that I'm like

785
00:23:10,782 --> 00:23:13,172
super fanboy of Jason, he's
a good enough guy, right?

786
00:23:13,442 --> 00:23:15,142
But I'm like, dude did
shit- Yeah … that

787
00:23:15,142 --> 00:23:15,842
you weren't willing

788
00:23:15,842 --> 00:23:15,882
to do.

789
00:23:15,882 --> 00:23:18,172
He did things that other people
weren't willing to do to get

790
00:23:18,201 --> 00:23:20,562
in the position to be able to
do that in the first place.

791
00:23:20,562 --> 00:23:23,332
It wasn't they were just
like, anybody with 10,000

792
00:23:23,342 --> 00:23:26,181
bucks can just come in and
just w- w- we're… It was a

793
00:23:26,182 --> 00:23:28,451
very specific set of people
who were in the right place

794
00:23:28,452 --> 00:23:30,761
at the right time doing the
right things that earned

795
00:23:30,772 --> 00:23:32,161
those opportunities, right?

796
00:23:32,161 --> 00:23:33,642
That- And, and it's not
like he hadn't earned

797
00:23:33,642 --> 00:23:34,601
it before that, too.

798
00:23:34,811 --> 00:23:36,302
Now that attitude- And
that- … we've talked, I think.

799
00:23:36,332 --> 00:23:37,762
Did we talk about that
la- was that last week

800
00:23:37,762 --> 00:23:38,392
or the week before?

801
00:23:38,392 --> 00:23:38,412
I don't-

802
00:23:38,412 --> 00:23:39,441
I think we were
talking about Musk.

803
00:23:39,451 --> 00:23:40,351
And, and people were
like, oh, he doesn't-

804
00:23:40,352 --> 00:23:41,352
Yeah … deserve his money.

805
00:23:41,622 --> 00:23:43,392
Like, and again, I don't
give a shit about Elon Musk.

806
00:23:43,431 --> 00:23:44,862
I'm not like, you know,
defending the guy.

807
00:23:44,872 --> 00:23:44,892
Yeah.

808
00:23:45,142 --> 00:23:46,962
But I just practically
I look at it and I'm

809
00:23:46,962 --> 00:23:49,031
like, do what he's done.

810
00:23:49,121 --> 00:23:49,281
He created that money.

811
00:23:49,541 --> 00:23:50,041
Yeah.

812
00:23:50,041 --> 00:23:50,491
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

813
00:23:50,491 --> 00:23:50,741
Right?

814
00:23:50,741 --> 00:23:52,831
So, so if he's not
entitled to it, who is?

815
00:23:52,841 --> 00:23:54,401
Should we just give
it back to people?

816
00:23:54,692 --> 00:23:55,851
Are they gonna give us
back- Well, well- … parts

817
00:23:55,852 --> 00:23:57,631
of the cars, parts
of the, the aircraft?

818
00:23:57,631 --> 00:23:58,211
What are they gonna do?

819
00:23:58,291 --> 00:23:59,791
Well, he's really just
making the money off the

820
00:23:59,801 --> 00:24:00,962
backs of his employees.

821
00:24:01,411 --> 00:24:03,971
Dude, if that's the case,
sign me up to be that

822
00:24:03,981 --> 00:24:05,511
back any day of the week.

823
00:24:05,511 --> 00:24:05,781
Yeah.

824
00:24:05,781 --> 00:24:06,051
Yeah.

825
00:24:06,051 --> 00:24:06,071
Do

826
00:24:06,071 --> 00:24:06,681
you know how many millionaires

827
00:24:06,901 --> 00:24:07,361
he's minted?

828
00:24:07,431 --> 00:24:08,151
He did a whole… How many?

829
00:24:08,172 --> 00:24:11,232
Like, it was, it was a very
large number of millionaires

830
00:24:11,232 --> 00:24:12,671
were minted during the IPO.

831
00:24:13,091 --> 00:24:16,811
So the SpaceX IPO minted at
least 1,000 millionaires.

832
00:24:16,811 --> 00:24:18,451
Do you know how frigging
hard that is to do?

833
00:24:18,462 --> 00:24:18,702
Yeah.

834
00:24:18,712 --> 00:24:19,082
Right?

835
00:24:19,082 --> 00:24:20,021
That's, that's pretty

836
00:24:20,021 --> 00:24:20,061
hard.

837
00:24:20,061 --> 00:24:21,801
And s- and I wanna say over
100 centi-millionaires.

838
00:24:21,801 --> 00:24:22,012
I think

839
00:24:22,012 --> 00:24:23,561
the state lottery has
achieved that- Right

840
00:24:23,831 --> 00:24:25,401
… over about, not yet.

841
00:24:25,462 --> 00:24:26,231
I don't think the
state lottery's-

842
00:24:26,231 --> 00:24:27,422
Yeah … achieved that yet.

843
00:24:27,962 --> 00:24:29,371
I mean, unbelievable, man.

844
00:24:29,581 --> 00:24:29,701
And all they

845
00:24:29,701 --> 00:24:30,601
do is mint millionaires.

846
00:24:30,661 --> 00:24:31,181
That's their job.

847
00:24:31,182 --> 00:24:31,752
Right, right.

848
00:24:32,011 --> 00:24:34,372
Not to mention kinda
innovating around electric

849
00:24:34,381 --> 00:24:36,621
cars, getting us on a path
to Mars, like, like all this

850
00:24:36,621 --> 00:24:37,651
other crazy shit, right?

851
00:24:37,651 --> 00:24:37,672
Yeah.

852
00:24:37,672 --> 00:24:40,501
Like, if he had done any one
of those things, he would've

853
00:24:40,502 --> 00:24:42,861
been more than, you know,
uh, deserving of his- Yeah

854
00:24:42,861 --> 00:24:43,601
asymmetric reward.

855
00:24:43,841 --> 00:24:44,991
But dude did all of them.

856
00:24:45,221 --> 00:24:45,491
All of

857
00:24:45,491 --> 00:24:45,511
them.

858
00:24:45,511 --> 00:24:47,551
And again, this
isn't fanboying him.

859
00:24:47,551 --> 00:24:49,441
I, he, actually I think
he's kind of a weird dude.

860
00:24:49,631 --> 00:24:49,821
Yeah.

861
00:24:49,821 --> 00:24:51,971
So I'm not like in l-
love with Musk, but I'm

862
00:24:51,971 --> 00:24:53,721
saying, as a founder-

863
00:24:53,811 --> 00:24:54,121
Yeah

864
00:24:54,161 --> 00:24:56,242
… 
knowing what it took
to get there- To

865
00:24:56,242 --> 00:24:56,601
get there

866
00:24:56,911 --> 00:25:00,124
… 
I'm like, he deserve- Here's
another good example Whenever

867
00:25:00,124 --> 00:25:02,164
I see professional athletes
at the top of their game-

868
00:25:02,184 --> 00:25:02,543
Yeah,

869
00:25:03,283 --> 00:25:03,303
yeah

870
00:25:03,303 --> 00:25:03,384
right?

871
00:25:03,384 --> 00:25:04,584
People are like, "Oh, they
don't deserve to get paid

872
00:25:04,584 --> 00:25:05,654
that much money." Right.

873
00:25:05,684 --> 00:25:05,984
Okay.

874
00:25:06,434 --> 00:25:07,803
Try doing what they do.

875
00:25:07,803 --> 00:25:07,824
Yeah,

876
00:25:07,824 --> 00:25:08,174
yeah.

877
00:25:08,553 --> 00:25:08,654
Right?

878
00:25:08,654 --> 00:25:08,694
Go

879
00:25:08,694 --> 00:25:08,954
ahead.

880
00:25:08,974 --> 00:25:09,923
Aside from having to,

881
00:25:09,934 --> 00:25:12,774
like- Make, make one of
those plays and survive it.

882
00:25:13,104 --> 00:25:13,914
Yeah, right, right.

883
00:25:14,014 --> 00:25:16,833
And it's like when you see
someone… A World Cup's

884
00:25:16,844 --> 00:25:17,783
going on right now, right?

885
00:25:17,864 --> 00:25:19,523
And, uh, you know, I
know you're a huge soccer

886
00:25:19,524 --> 00:25:20,163
fan, or football is.

887
00:25:20,163 --> 00:25:20,403
Oh, yes.

888
00:25:20,704 --> 00:25:22,103
And, and you see the
people that- Yeah.

889
00:25:22,103 --> 00:25:22,453
In fact, could you

890
00:25:22,723 --> 00:25:23,313
talk a little faster, Will?

891
00:25:23,313 --> 00:25:24,144
There's some games on right now.

892
00:25:25,993 --> 00:25:29,533
When you see the people
that are in the stadium-

893
00:25:29,954 --> 00:25:30,124
Yeah

894
00:25:30,153 --> 00:25:33,663
… 
at that moment, what it took for
them to get there- Yeah … the

895
00:25:33,663 --> 00:25:36,714
sacrifice, the discipline,
like you had to be the best

896
00:25:36,714 --> 00:25:36,964
of the best of the best.

897
00:25:36,964 --> 00:25:37,604
And you're just talking

898
00:25:37,604 --> 00:25:39,453
about the people that
bought the tickets, right?

899
00:25:40,144 --> 00:25:40,324
Yeah.

900
00:25:40,894 --> 00:25:40,974
Yeah.

901
00:25:41,644 --> 00:25:43,253
Even that was a level.

902
00:25:43,433 --> 00:25:46,033
But seriously, like what
it takes to get to that

903
00:25:46,033 --> 00:25:47,694
level is so extraordinary.

904
00:25:47,694 --> 00:25:47,704
Yeah,

905
00:25:47,704 --> 00:25:47,953
yeah.

906
00:25:48,124 --> 00:25:51,154
And when we talk about athletes,
I think people do a thing

907
00:25:51,154 --> 00:25:53,004
where like, "Yeah, well, they
were just gifted athletes."

908
00:25:53,054 --> 00:25:53,444
Nope.

909
00:25:53,723 --> 00:25:53,913
Nope.

910
00:25:53,924 --> 00:25:54,154
No.

911
00:25:54,194 --> 00:25:54,624
Bullshit.

912
00:25:54,633 --> 00:25:54,653
No.

913
00:25:54,924 --> 00:25:57,163
Yes, they were gifted-
Yes … but they had to do

914
00:25:57,163 --> 00:25:57,573
the work every single day.

915
00:25:57,573 --> 00:25:58,413
And they worked their

916
00:25:58,464 --> 00:26:00,973
gifted ass off every
day, night and day.

917
00:26:00,983 --> 00:26:01,523
Exactly.

918
00:26:01,533 --> 00:26:03,843
Morning and night, two-a-day
practices, three-a-day

919
00:26:03,844 --> 00:26:06,944
practices, all the things that
nobody else was willing to do.

920
00:26:07,274 --> 00:26:07,484
Yep.

921
00:26:07,493 --> 00:26:09,613
Even people who
were equally gifted.

922
00:26:10,033 --> 00:26:10,193
Yep.

923
00:26:10,204 --> 00:26:10,454
Right?

924
00:26:10,454 --> 00:26:12,384
And that- Um- … that is
what separates the people

925
00:26:12,384 --> 00:26:14,383
who were gifted, aren't
gifted, the, all the ones who

926
00:26:14,383 --> 00:26:16,153
are gifted to the ones that
actually make it up there.

927
00:26:16,414 --> 00:26:17,763
'Cause some people will
rightfully say, "Well,

928
00:26:17,903 --> 00:26:19,183
there were a lot of
people who were gifted.

929
00:26:19,194 --> 00:26:20,853
You know, I saw, you know,
same level of talent when

930
00:26:20,863 --> 00:26:21,413
we were in high school.

931
00:26:21,414 --> 00:26:23,204
I, I, I played with that guy
and you know, we had another

932
00:26:23,204 --> 00:26:24,653
guy who was just as good." Yeah.

933
00:26:24,703 --> 00:26:26,393
Did he do all the
things that guy did?

934
00:26:26,613 --> 00:26:27,003
No.

935
00:26:27,124 --> 00:26:27,594
Okay.

936
00:26:27,633 --> 00:26:28,343
There's the difference.

937
00:26:28,363 --> 00:26:28,653
Right.

938
00:26:28,823 --> 00:26:30,313
And- I wanna circle back on
something else 'cause just the,

939
00:26:30,313 --> 00:26:33,233
the whole- Yeah … like the
whole on the backs of, right?

940
00:26:33,234 --> 00:26:35,543
Because people look at, at
an outcome like, like Musk

941
00:26:35,543 --> 00:26:37,774
just got, and it is, like
it is the biggest asymmetry

942
00:26:37,813 --> 00:26:39,073
we've seen yet, right?

943
00:26:39,194 --> 00:26:39,364
Yeah.

944
00:26:39,364 --> 00:26:41,903
Who knows what's next, but
he's a trillionaire now, on

945
00:26:41,903 --> 00:26:43,083
the backs of people, right?

946
00:26:43,083 --> 00:26:44,653
And, and you said something
the other day that like

947
00:26:44,703 --> 00:26:45,503
is worth repeating.

948
00:26:45,833 --> 00:26:49,303
Those were not exactly
like shitty jobs that those

949
00:26:49,304 --> 00:26:50,593
people had- Right … during
that time while they were-

950
00:26:50,593 --> 00:26:51,677
They're the highest paid
people in the country

951
00:26:51,677 --> 00:26:53,383
while he was- Yeah … while
he was climbing up their

952
00:26:53,383 --> 00:26:55,583
shoulders to get to the
top of his pyramid, right?

953
00:26:55,583 --> 00:26:55,918
Yeah.

954
00:26:55,918 --> 00:26:58,073
Those were some of
the most sought after,

955
00:26:58,213 --> 00:27:00,643
well-paid, highest benefits.

956
00:27:00,653 --> 00:27:02,183
Forget about the fact that
they got an asymmetric

957
00:27:02,203 --> 00:27:03,604
outcome after the fact, right?

958
00:27:03,604 --> 00:27:03,653
Yeah.

959
00:27:03,653 --> 00:27:05,793
They became millionaires
on the day that their

960
00:27:05,793 --> 00:27:07,694
stock options became
worth a shitload of money.

961
00:27:07,703 --> 00:27:07,733
Right.

962
00:27:08,093 --> 00:27:10,753
They were paid pretty damn
well the entire time, or

963
00:27:10,753 --> 00:27:12,914
actually- Yeah … very well
in most cases the entire time.

964
00:27:12,914 --> 00:27:14,223
So like, come on.

965
00:27:14,583 --> 00:27:16,934
Like what you're really saying
is, "I don't have that money,

966
00:27:17,054 --> 00:27:19,369
and I would like that money,
but I'm not willing to do what

967
00:27:19,369 --> 00:27:20,423
they did to get it." Right.

968
00:27:20,433 --> 00:27:20,804
So meh.

969
00:27:21,494 --> 00:27:21,774
Yeah.

970
00:27:21,784 --> 00:27:21,834
Come on.

971
00:27:21,854 --> 00:27:22,034
Yeah.

972
00:27:22,034 --> 00:27:24,143
Well, and, and I get it, right?

973
00:27:24,143 --> 00:27:26,464
It, as much as I don't, I don't
agree with it, I get it, right?

974
00:27:26,464 --> 00:27:29,104
Like you see someone that has
something that you don't have,

975
00:27:29,363 --> 00:27:34,294
there's no way for you to really
ascribe the actual work, uh-

976
00:27:34,294 --> 00:27:35,993
Yeah … risk and everything
else that it comes with it.

977
00:27:36,223 --> 00:27:36,883
I get that.

978
00:27:37,244 --> 00:27:40,072
But again, I think there's
a reason- Why you don't

979
00:27:40,082 --> 00:27:42,732
hear that commentary from
other people who do that-

980
00:27:43,002 --> 00:27:43,202
Yeah

981
00:27:43,202 --> 00:27:46,552
like in other words, i- if you
were a professional athlete that

982
00:27:46,552 --> 00:27:49,072
didn't make it to the World Cup
level, but, but you had tried

983
00:27:49,072 --> 00:27:51,682
out for the team and you're the
last person to get cut, maybe

984
00:27:51,682 --> 00:27:54,332
you're like, "Ah, well, I was
just as good as, you know, the

985
00:27:54,332 --> 00:27:56,772
other guy that, that's on the
field." I would say probably.

986
00:27:56,822 --> 00:27:58,651
You know, I mean, there's,
it could be a coin toss

987
00:27:58,651 --> 00:28:00,082
when one of you had a better
practice than another.

988
00:28:00,082 --> 00:28:00,841
Yeah, that kind of thing.

989
00:28:01,391 --> 00:28:03,642
But there's no way that
person would say, "But I

990
00:28:03,642 --> 00:28:06,251
don't think those people
deserve to be there at all."

991
00:28:06,551 --> 00:28:06,761
Yeah.

992
00:28:06,762 --> 00:28:07,002
Right?

993
00:28:07,041 --> 00:28:10,161
Like, like in other words,
they know exactly how

994
00:28:10,172 --> 00:28:11,412
hard it was to get there.

995
00:28:11,421 --> 00:28:11,441
Yeah.

996
00:28:11,792 --> 00:28:14,642
So there's no version once
you understand the journey

997
00:28:15,121 --> 00:28:16,242
that you can't appreciate it.

998
00:28:16,242 --> 00:28:16,258
Right.

999
00:28:16,258 --> 00:28:18,611
It'd be the equivalent of me
saying, "Having a baby means

1000
00:28:18,612 --> 00:28:21,071
nothing. What is it? Like eight
hours of hardship to have a

1001
00:28:21,072 --> 00:28:22,611
baby?" Yeah, dude, try doing it.

1002
00:28:23,952 --> 00:28:26,022
I'm gonna go ahead and
assume Sara's not within

1003
00:28:26,031 --> 00:28:27,672
earshot because nothing
hit you in the back of

1004
00:28:27,672 --> 00:28:28,201
the head right now, Will.

1005
00:28:28,231 --> 00:28:28,601
Yeah.

1006
00:28:28,601 --> 00:28:28,892
Yeah, yeah.

1007
00:28:29,142 --> 00:28:30,472
But what, no, that's
respect though.

1008
00:28:30,472 --> 00:28:32,891
I'm saying like I can't
possibly appreciate-

1009
00:28:32,981 --> 00:28:33,182
I know

1010
00:28:33,261 --> 00:28:37,031
… 
what that was because I
wasn't willing to do it and,

1011
00:28:37,031 --> 00:28:38,111
and physically could not.

1012
00:28:38,491 --> 00:28:41,641
But like until you've gone
through it, you really

1013
00:28:41,641 --> 00:28:42,551
can't comment on it.

1014
00:28:42,581 --> 00:28:42,601
Yeah.

1015
00:28:42,951 --> 00:28:43,191
Right?

1016
00:28:43,511 --> 00:28:45,781
But again, I don't think it's
incidental that the people

1017
00:28:45,781 --> 00:28:48,551
that have gone through it
don't comment on it, right?

1018
00:28:48,591 --> 00:28:48,851
Yeah.

1019
00:28:48,851 --> 00:28:52,551
Because we're like, "Holy
Jesus." Like, I don't bemoan

1020
00:28:52,901 --> 00:28:56,622
Musk for becoming a trillionaire
because I'm like, you don't,

1021
00:28:56,871 --> 00:28:58,661
hard that is to do that.

1022
00:28:58,661 --> 00:28:58,711
Yeah.

1023
00:28:58,711 --> 00:28:58,951
Right?

1024
00:28:58,992 --> 00:29:00,091
Like to pull that off.

1025
00:29:00,471 --> 00:29:03,631
I'm more, I admire the
accomplishment even if I'm

1026
00:29:03,632 --> 00:29:04,842
not like in love with the guy.

1027
00:29:05,022 --> 00:29:05,212
Right.

1028
00:29:05,212 --> 00:29:07,221
'Cause I'm like, "Damn."
I look at it the same

1029
00:29:07,221 --> 00:29:07,701
way with athletes.

1030
00:29:07,742 --> 00:29:09,382
Like there's certain athletes
that I'm not like a fan of

1031
00:29:09,391 --> 00:29:11,101
the athlete- Yeah … but
I'm a fan of the game.

1032
00:29:11,101 --> 00:29:12,381
Like watching their jump
shot or their fastball

1033
00:29:12,381 --> 00:29:13,051
or whatever, right?

1034
00:29:13,051 --> 00:29:13,221
Yeah.

1035
00:29:13,281 --> 00:29:13,592
Yeah, right?

1036
00:29:13,601 --> 00:29:15,382
Like I'm, I'm not
a huge LeBron fan.

1037
00:29:15,382 --> 00:29:16,912
I'm not anti-LeBron, right?

1038
00:29:16,961 --> 00:29:19,841
I, you know, he's got kind
of a huge ego, but I'm

1039
00:29:19,842 --> 00:29:22,012
like, "But there's only
one of them," you know?

1040
00:29:22,012 --> 00:29:22,191
Yeah.

1041
00:29:22,202 --> 00:29:22,682
Right, right now.

1042
00:29:22,682 --> 00:29:23,061
You know?

1043
00:29:23,061 --> 00:29:23,132
Yeah.

1044
00:29:23,132 --> 00:29:26,171
And what it would take to get
there and manage that and show

1045
00:29:26,171 --> 00:29:28,391
up, he's 42 years old, you
know, and be able to do that

1046
00:29:28,412 --> 00:29:30,421
over and over and over- Yeah
… through injuries, et cetera.

1047
00:29:30,702 --> 00:29:33,591
I'm like, damn, if you
can be that good and

1048
00:29:33,632 --> 00:29:34,661
withstand all of that-

1049
00:29:34,791 --> 00:29:35,021
Yep

1050
00:29:35,062 --> 00:29:36,271
… 
you deserve whatever you get.

1051
00:29:36,471 --> 00:29:38,261
Let's spend a second
unwinding what I think is a

1052
00:29:38,261 --> 00:29:39,702
misconception about all of this.

1053
00:29:40,041 --> 00:29:42,061
We talked a lot about the
sacrifice, but I don't think any

1054
00:29:42,061 --> 00:29:44,191
of us do this- Yeah … because
we enjoy the sacrifice, right?

1055
00:29:44,351 --> 00:29:44,581
Yeah, right.

1056
00:29:44,581 --> 00:29:44,791
Yeah.

1057
00:29:44,791 --> 00:29:45,771
I mean, maybe Mascis
out there, sure.

1058
00:29:45,772 --> 00:29:47,771
But I don't think the vast
majority of us are doing

1059
00:29:47,771 --> 00:29:49,031
this to collect pain for fun.

1060
00:29:49,502 --> 00:29:49,782
No.

1061
00:29:49,791 --> 00:29:52,042
We do it because we wanna
control our outcomes, right?

1062
00:29:52,042 --> 00:29:52,052
Right.

1063
00:29:52,052 --> 00:29:55,541
And yes, we might be chasing an
asymmetric reward, but I think

1064
00:29:55,541 --> 00:29:58,252
that people get the reward wrong
too from the outside, right?

1065
00:29:58,252 --> 00:30:00,691
They'll assume that it was the
nicer house, the private jet,

1066
00:30:00,702 --> 00:30:01,761
the big financial outcome.

1067
00:30:01,761 --> 00:30:01,858
Yeah.

1068
00:30:01,858 --> 00:30:02,051
Yeah, yeah.

1069
00:30:02,051 --> 00:30:04,152
And sure, like, you know,
nothing wrong with the toys.

1070
00:30:04,642 --> 00:30:06,801
But especially along the
way, it's not the thing

1071
00:30:06,801 --> 00:30:08,152
that's driving the sacrifice
because none of that

1072
00:30:08,152 --> 00:30:09,281
comes until later, right?

1073
00:30:09,291 --> 00:30:13,772
The real asymmetric reward
that's there throughout is

1074
00:30:13,782 --> 00:30:14,852
ownership of the outcome.

1075
00:30:14,852 --> 00:30:15,082
Mm-hmm.

1076
00:30:15,082 --> 00:30:17,331
And I think the, the, the fact
that- Right … in generally

1077
00:30:17,331 --> 00:30:19,081
speaking, we answer to no one,
which means we also answer to

1078
00:30:19,081 --> 00:30:21,991
everyone, but we build what
we want, when we want- Yep

1079
00:30:22,241 --> 00:30:24,751
how we want, and I think
that's the thing that

1080
00:30:24,761 --> 00:30:28,838
we've been willing to
sacrifice- All along, right?

1081
00:30:28,848 --> 00:30:28,878
Yep.

1082
00:30:28,888 --> 00:30:31,228
It's sacrificed for
all along, right?

1083
00:30:31,228 --> 00:30:31,278
Right.

1084
00:30:31,278 --> 00:30:33,868
The control of our own
life is a reward worth

1085
00:30:33,868 --> 00:30:35,038
sacrificing your life for.

1086
00:30:35,488 --> 00:30:37,958
It's the way you send
soldiers into combat.

1087
00:30:38,118 --> 00:30:38,248
Yep.

1088
00:30:38,348 --> 00:30:38,448
Right?

1089
00:30:38,488 --> 00:30:40,128
Make it something
bigger than themselves.

1090
00:30:40,138 --> 00:30:42,858
You make it something kind of
biblical in nature- Yeah … as

1091
00:30:42,858 --> 00:30:44,528
to, as far as, you know, what
the outcome's going to be.

1092
00:30:44,698 --> 00:30:47,377
Control of your own
destiny has no price tag.

1093
00:30:47,587 --> 00:30:47,727
Yep.

1094
00:30:47,778 --> 00:30:47,948
Right?

1095
00:30:47,948 --> 00:30:48,848
Like, I've always said this.

1096
00:30:48,848 --> 00:30:49,948
I've been very adamant about it.

1097
00:30:50,217 --> 00:30:53,487
I said, "If I could make a 10th
of what I make…" If you said,

1098
00:30:53,487 --> 00:30:54,577
"Hey, you got two choices.

1099
00:30:54,727 --> 00:30:56,658
You make a 10th of what
you make, or you make

1100
00:30:56,658 --> 00:30:59,317
exactly what you have now
or even more, but you have

1101
00:30:59,318 --> 00:31:01,338
to go report into a job."

1102
00:31:01,388 --> 00:31:01,668
Yeah.

1103
00:31:01,668 --> 00:31:03,407
I'm like, "Give me a 10th
of what I make every time."

1104
00:31:03,408 --> 00:31:05,087
Now- Yeah … I also say
that 'cause I believe I'll be

1105
00:31:05,087 --> 00:31:06,188
able to, to make up for it.

1106
00:31:06,237 --> 00:31:06,537
Right.

1107
00:31:06,787 --> 00:31:09,628
But the thing I value
the most is autonomy.

1108
00:31:10,037 --> 00:31:12,298
I haven't had a boss in 32
years, pretty much my, you know,

1109
00:31:12,298 --> 00:31:15,707
my entire career, and I've had
plenty of years where I had no

1110
00:31:15,708 --> 00:31:16,798
idea if I was going to get paid.

1111
00:31:16,798 --> 00:31:19,277
So, like, the, the financial
reward wasn't the effort.

1112
00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:22,480
But I always knew that
it was, it was under my

1113
00:31:22,530 --> 00:31:23,350
control, so to speak.

1114
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:23,530
Right.

1115
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:26,140
And I think for a lot
of founders, that's what

1116
00:31:26,140 --> 00:31:27,520
they go into this for.

1117
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,570
Like- Yeah … no one's
guaranteeing those outcomes.

1118
00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:29,890
Yep.

1119
00:31:29,890 --> 00:31:31,780
And if I'm being honest, having
talked to a lot of founders,

1120
00:31:31,780 --> 00:31:32,830
I'm curious your thought.

1121
00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:36,150
I don't think a lot of them
are like, "I'm doing this

1122
00:31:36,150 --> 00:31:38,959
specifically 'cause I wanna make
so much money." I think they're

1123
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,299
doing it for a different reason,
and it happens to make money.

1124
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:42,660
Yeah.

1125
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:42,769
Right?

1126
00:31:42,790 --> 00:31:44,609
I'm not saying they're
altruistic, I'm saying

1127
00:31:44,610 --> 00:31:46,880
that's- No … usually
not the primary driver.

1128
00:31:47,389 --> 00:31:48,480
Look, I agree with that.

1129
00:31:48,610 --> 00:31:52,200
And, and I think that for a
very, very long time, starting

1130
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:53,799
your business, like if we
go back to, like, slightly

1131
00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:56,650
before the startup period as
we know it now- Yeah … there

1132
00:31:56,650 --> 00:31:59,149
weren't these crazy massive
outcomes, and yet people have

1133
00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:00,331
been starting businesses- Not
a sure thing from the time-

1134
00:32:00,331 --> 00:32:01,570
from time immemorial, right?

1135
00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:01,789
Yeah, yeah.

1136
00:32:01,789 --> 00:32:03,460
Like, people have been doing
things to, to make money.

1137
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:06,659
And so yeah, I think that, that,
that isn't the thing, right?

1138
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,439
The reward isn't the jet, right?

1139
00:32:08,499 --> 00:32:09,929
It's that nobody
gets to tell you no.

1140
00:32:10,169 --> 00:32:12,350
The jet is just what everybody
sees from the outside, right?

1141
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:12,540
Yep.

1142
00:32:12,869 --> 00:32:14,309
But that ability
to pick the path.

1143
00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:17,739
So Elon might go, "Yeah,
being a trillionaire, like

1144
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:19,749
yeah, I did that." He's like,
"But you know what was really

1145
00:32:19,749 --> 00:32:20,540
driving me the entire time?

1146
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:23,209
Like, I couldn't find a job
where I could say, 'And what

1147
00:32:23,209 --> 00:32:25,939
I wanna do is eventually go to
Mars and colonize it,' where

1148
00:32:25,939 --> 00:32:27,020
people wouldn't- Yeah, right,
right … just laugh me out of

1149
00:32:27,020 --> 00:32:28,710
the fucking room- Right, right

1150
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:30,550
and tell me." Like, just like
there isn't a job that exists

1151
00:32:30,550 --> 00:32:32,730
where you get to say, "I'd like
to sign up for the part where

1152
00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:34,939
we're gonna go to Mars." Like,
it doesn't exist unless that

1153
00:32:34,939 --> 00:32:36,259
guy makes that a real thing.

1154
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:36,720
Yeah.

1155
00:32:36,729 --> 00:32:38,629
That's the value for
somebody like that.

1156
00:32:38,709 --> 00:32:38,919
Right.

1157
00:32:38,950 --> 00:32:41,359
That's the value for founders,
that we get to go, "I have

1158
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:43,389
this crazy-ass thing I wanna
do, and I wanna do it my

1159
00:32:43,389 --> 00:32:44,509
way, and I'm gonna go do it."

1160
00:32:44,719 --> 00:32:48,529
And this is the only place and
the only way that can possibly

1161
00:32:48,530 --> 00:32:50,320
manifest and maybe become true.

1162
00:32:50,899 --> 00:32:51,279
I agree.

1163
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:54,640
And, and I think that everyone
goes into this with this idea

1164
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,659
that, hey, I don't think I
wanna sacrifice that much.

1165
00:32:56,689 --> 00:32:59,450
I don't think- Yeah … anybody
signs up for this job with

1166
00:32:59,529 --> 00:33:01,849
any idea of what's actually
going to happen, like how

1167
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:02,719
brutal it's going to be.

1168
00:33:02,719 --> 00:33:03,569
And it's gonna be brutal.

1169
00:33:03,899 --> 00:33:08,300
And so if I map back to that
conversation, 6:00 AM with

1170
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:11,839
aspiring founder, and, uh,
it's 15 degrees outside,

1171
00:33:12,029 --> 00:33:13,029
and I'm explaining all this.

1172
00:33:13,049 --> 00:33:15,389
And, you know, old man
Schroeder, and he thinks

1173
00:33:15,389 --> 00:33:16,939
about it, and I'm, and I
come ask him, like, "Hey,

1174
00:33:16,939 --> 00:33:19,700
do you, um, you know, would
you be willing to go through

1175
00:33:19,749 --> 00:33:20,849
everything I just described?"

1176
00:33:20,909 --> 00:33:21,169
Yeah.

1177
00:33:21,719 --> 00:33:23,999
And he thinks about it,
and he says no, right?

1178
00:33:23,999 --> 00:33:25,979
Now, to be honest, wasn't
the answer I was expecting.

1179
00:33:25,979 --> 00:33:25,999
No.

1180
00:33:26,099 --> 00:33:28,259
I was kinda hoping for like,
like a more ambitious answer.

1181
00:33:28,329 --> 00:33:28,529
Yeah.

1182
00:33:28,569 --> 00:33:29,910
But when I thought about
it, I was like, that's

1183
00:33:29,910 --> 00:33:31,120
a very honest answer.

1184
00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:31,430
Yeah.

1185
00:33:31,450 --> 00:33:31,750
Okay?

1186
00:33:32,189 --> 00:33:35,070
Now, what he's saying
is, "That sucks. Like, I

1187
00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:36,550
do not want to do that."

1188
00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:36,789
Right?

1189
00:33:36,979 --> 00:33:37,049
Yeah.

1190
00:33:37,159 --> 00:33:38,910
Which, again, is a
very reasonable answer.

1191
00:33:39,189 --> 00:33:40,099
But then I thought about it.

1192
00:33:40,099 --> 00:33:40,739
I'm like, you know what?

1193
00:33:41,030 --> 00:33:42,870
That's what everybody
thinks going into it.

1194
00:33:43,289 --> 00:33:45,289
Everyone thinks they're
gonna get that outcome,

1195
00:33:45,429 --> 00:33:47,470
but not have to go through
that gauntlet, right?

1196
00:33:47,470 --> 00:33:49,729
Like, I'll be the smart- Yeah
… person that doesn't have any

1197
00:33:49,729 --> 00:33:52,289
of the hardship or any of the
bullshit, but somehow gets to

1198
00:33:52,289 --> 00:33:53,609
the finish line all the same.

1199
00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:56,369
We all go into it, and I think
it's the only reason you go into

1200
00:33:56,369 --> 00:33:59,199
it Yeah … because you think
you can avoid getting shot.

1201
00:33:59,489 --> 00:34:01,789
And yet in the end, we all come
out as Swiss cheese, getting

1202
00:34:01,789 --> 00:34:03,130
shot a, a million times.

1203
00:34:03,489 --> 00:34:05,879
And so I told him, I was like,
"Listen, man, that mindset

1204
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,800
is how we all start. We all
start thinking we're gonna

1205
00:34:08,909 --> 00:34:10,179
a- avoid this gauntlet."

1206
00:34:10,804 --> 00:34:12,784
We all come out of it
battered and bruised.

1207
00:34:12,833 --> 00:34:14,453
Now, some of us come
out of it battered,

1208
00:34:14,464 --> 00:34:17,973
bruised, and successful
in some respect, right?

1209
00:34:17,994 --> 00:34:18,203
Yeah.

1210
00:34:18,264 --> 00:34:19,244
Very few of us do.

1211
00:34:19,244 --> 00:34:21,543
I mean, there's, there's far
more casualties than successes.

1212
00:34:21,554 --> 00:34:21,583
Yep.

1213
00:34:22,083 --> 00:34:25,893
I said, "But that's the
value in this process.

1214
00:34:25,893 --> 00:34:29,813
You don't know, but if
you do, the reward can

1215
00:34:29,813 --> 00:34:30,853
be significant, right?

1216
00:34:30,853 --> 00:34:33,763
And, and that's worth doing."
And so, you know, a month

1217
00:34:33,763 --> 00:34:36,293
later, uh, this is after we're
working on stuff, we help him

1218
00:34:36,293 --> 00:34:37,873
found his first company, right?

1219
00:34:38,093 --> 00:34:38,263
Yep.

1220
00:34:38,324 --> 00:34:39,793
Now, here's why I thought
that was interesting.

1221
00:34:40,433 --> 00:34:43,233
It's like I told him how
awful this was going to be-

1222
00:34:43,243 --> 00:34:46,213
Yeah … in no uncertain terms,
and he was willing to do it

1223
00:34:46,214 --> 00:34:48,673
anyway, which, which, you
know, you and I have a huge,

1224
00:34:48,743 --> 00:34:50,034
a warm place in our heart for.

1225
00:34:50,034 --> 00:34:51,413
It's kind of what we do-
Yes … all day long.

1226
00:34:52,024 --> 00:34:55,134
But I think for a lot of people,
watching them go through this,

1227
00:34:55,193 --> 00:34:58,054
this process, which you and I
do on a regular basis, right?

1228
00:34:58,324 --> 00:35:00,263
Watching them go through
this process, watching them

1229
00:35:00,263 --> 00:35:01,163
go through this gauntlet.

1230
00:35:01,373 --> 00:35:03,643
Years later, we're gonna
come out on the other side

1231
00:35:03,653 --> 00:35:06,133
and I'm gonna be helping him
build his dream house, right?

1232
00:35:06,583 --> 00:35:09,234
And I'm gonna say to him,
"Was it worth it?" Yeah.

1233
00:35:09,473 --> 00:35:11,444
And he's gonna look around,
and he's gonna, he's gonna

1234
00:35:11,644 --> 00:35:13,644
look at, you know, what he's
built, he's gonna look back

1235
00:35:13,644 --> 00:35:15,624
on his career and everything
it took to get there, and

1236
00:35:15,624 --> 00:35:17,074
he's gonna say, "Fuck yeah."

1237
00:35:17,074 --> 00:35:20,214
Overthinking your startup
because you're going it alone?

1238
00:35:20,653 --> 00:35:22,453
You don't have to, and
honestly, you shouldn't.

1239
00:35:22,753 --> 00:35:25,373
Because instead, you can
learn directly from peers

1240
00:35:25,373 --> 00:35:26,613
who've been in your shoes.

1241
00:35:26,753 --> 00:35:29,084
Connect with bootstrap
founders and the advisors

1242
00:35:29,084 --> 00:35:31,513
helping them win in the
Startups.com community.

1243
00:35:31,683 --> 00:35:36,284
Check out the Startups.com
community at www.startups.com

1244
00:35:36,393 --> 00:35:37,313
to see if it's for you.

1245
00:35:37,573 --> 00:35:38,603
Could be just the
thing you need.

1246
00:35:38,853 --> 00:35:39,803
I hope to see you inside.