WEBVTT 00:00:02.970 --> 00:00:05.820 Matt Abrahams: Have you ever felt that fortune has benefited you? 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:10.920 Well, today you're in luck because we're going to spend some time discussing luck. 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:14.310 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:14.310 --> 00:00:15.660 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.230 --> 00:00:19.410 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.890 --> 00:00:22.770 Today, I am super excited to be joined by my friend, and now 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.570 three time guest, Tina Seelig. 00:00:24.900 --> 00:00:28.200 Tina is the executive director of the Knight-Hennessy Scholars Program at 00:00:28.200 --> 00:00:32.460 Stanford and Director Emeritus of the Stanford Technology Ventures program. 00:00:32.940 --> 00:00:37.080 Tina also teaches courses on creativity, innovation, and entrepreneurship. 00:00:37.350 --> 00:00:41.250 She's the author of many books, including Creativity Rules: Get Ideas 00:00:41.250 --> 00:00:42.900 Out of Your Head and Into the World. 00:00:43.265 --> 00:00:47.044 Her latest book is what I Wish I Knew about Luck: A Crash Course on 00:00:47.044 --> 00:00:49.324 Turning Aspirations Into Achievements. 00:00:49.834 --> 00:00:51.245 Tina, welcome back. 00:00:51.245 --> 00:00:54.004 It's great to be back in studio with you to continue the conversations 00:00:54.004 --> 00:00:56.555 you and I have in lots of different areas, in lots of different ways. 00:00:56.555 --> 00:00:57.305 Thanks for being here. 00:00:57.485 --> 00:00:58.834 Tina Seelig: It is my pleasure. 00:00:58.955 --> 00:00:59.435 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:59.435 --> 00:01:00.155 Shall we get started? 00:01:00.214 --> 00:01:00.605 Tina Seelig: You bet. 00:01:00.964 --> 00:01:02.495 Matt Abrahams: I don't know if you remembered it or not, but when we 00:01:02.495 --> 00:01:05.705 first met, it was after I gave you a cold call because I had seen your 00:01:05.705 --> 00:01:08.675 TED Talk called The Little Risks You Can Take to Increase Your Luck. 00:01:09.315 --> 00:01:13.035 Lucky me, that email initiated a friendship and collaborations that 00:01:13.035 --> 00:01:14.715 have gone on for a number of years. 00:01:15.165 --> 00:01:18.705 But before I ask you why luck is an important topic and one we 00:01:18.705 --> 00:01:22.425 should look into, I'd like to know, was I lucky that you answered my 00:01:22.425 --> 00:01:24.645 email or was it just good fortune? 00:01:25.155 --> 00:01:26.835 Tina Seelig: I think you were lucky. 00:01:27.105 --> 00:01:31.665 Millions of people have watched that TED Talk, but you took the time to 00:01:31.665 --> 00:01:35.955 actually reach out and you sent me a nice note and it certainly was 00:01:35.955 --> 00:01:38.415 interesting enough that I responded. 00:01:38.744 --> 00:01:40.485 And the rest is history. 00:01:40.544 --> 00:01:43.574 So you were definitely lucky because there's a very big 00:01:43.574 --> 00:01:46.095 difference between fortune and luck. 00:01:46.395 --> 00:01:48.705 So fortune is the things that happened to you. 00:01:48.705 --> 00:01:51.104 So you happened upon that video. 00:01:51.104 --> 00:01:55.485 Maybe it ended up in your feed, but then you were lucky because you reached out. 00:01:55.815 --> 00:02:00.255 So there's a difference between the things that happened to you and how you respond. 00:02:00.455 --> 00:02:07.170 We are in a constant dance between what the world gives us and how we respond 00:02:07.170 --> 00:02:09.090 to it, and that's where luck comes in. 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:11.009 Matt Abrahams: I wanna hear all about luck. 00:02:11.009 --> 00:02:14.130 Tell me what got you interested in luck in the first place. 00:02:14.340 --> 00:02:14.820 Tina Seelig: Great. 00:02:14.820 --> 00:02:20.935 So when I was growing up my father, who just recently passed away, he and 00:02:20.935 --> 00:02:24.145 I have debated about luck for decades. 00:02:24.265 --> 00:02:27.265 He always said, the harder I work, the luckier I get. 00:02:27.265 --> 00:02:29.125 And I really internalized that. 00:02:29.125 --> 00:02:32.095 And I would say it too, like, yeah, the harder I work, the luckier I get 00:02:32.395 --> 00:02:35.155 until I realized that was a shortcut. 00:02:35.215 --> 00:02:39.505 You know, what is that hard work and what can you unpack to 00:02:39.505 --> 00:02:41.204 actually make yourself luckier? 00:02:41.515 --> 00:02:45.345 And he and I continued to debate because he still felt that good 00:02:45.345 --> 00:02:46.905 things just happened to him. 00:02:47.205 --> 00:02:48.795 And I would say, no, no, no. 00:02:48.795 --> 00:02:53.625 Look at all the things you did to make those good things happen. 00:02:54.105 --> 00:02:54.435 Matt Abrahams: I see. 00:02:54.435 --> 00:02:56.815 So there's a big sense of agency in all of this. 00:02:57.355 --> 00:02:59.744 You use the term making luck. 00:02:59.984 --> 00:03:01.154 Can you unpack that for us? 00:03:01.154 --> 00:03:03.765 Because I don't think of luck that way. 00:03:03.765 --> 00:03:05.445 Help me more understand that. 00:03:05.774 --> 00:03:09.464 Tina Seelig: So I deeply believe that opportunities for lucky things to 00:03:09.464 --> 00:03:14.204 happen are ubiquitous, but they're invisible and most people don't see them. 00:03:14.625 --> 00:03:17.594 And therefore you need to figure out how to catch them. 00:03:18.075 --> 00:03:23.385 And so what you do is if luck is like the wind invisible but powerful, you 00:03:23.385 --> 00:03:25.214 need to build a sail to catch it. 00:03:26.010 --> 00:03:28.859 There are three ways that you build a sail to catch it. 00:03:28.859 --> 00:03:32.070 First you have to start with your ship and you start with the internal work. 00:03:32.190 --> 00:03:33.660 You need to know your values. 00:03:33.660 --> 00:03:35.040 You need to know your risk profile. 00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:37.170 You need to know the story you tell about yourself. 00:03:37.410 --> 00:03:39.060 You need to know where you're going. 00:03:39.450 --> 00:03:41.700 You also then need to recruit your crew. 00:03:41.970 --> 00:03:46.395 That is, get other people engaged who wanna help you because most luck 00:03:46.575 --> 00:03:48.135 comes through other people, right? 00:03:48.135 --> 00:03:50.835 There are other people who are gonna help you reach your goals, and 00:03:50.835 --> 00:03:52.575 there are lots of ways to do that. 00:03:52.875 --> 00:03:55.815 And then finally, you need to hoist the sail, and those are the 00:03:55.815 --> 00:04:01.425 things you do every single day to put energy into catching the wind 00:04:01.635 --> 00:04:03.465 that is ubiquitous around you. 00:04:03.945 --> 00:04:06.615 Matt Abrahams: I really like the analogy of the wind because it helps 00:04:06.615 --> 00:04:09.345 us understand that there's something very powerful that we can't see, 00:04:09.345 --> 00:04:10.515 yet there are things we can do. 00:04:11.220 --> 00:04:14.220 I wanna dive deep into each of those three areas. 00:04:14.220 --> 00:04:17.285 But before we do that, I really enjoyed your new book. 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:21.570 You argue something that I found really interesting that I never thought of. 00:04:21.570 --> 00:04:26.010 You argue that deep, authentic listening is one of the most underrepresented or 00:04:26.010 --> 00:04:28.169 underused ways to get luck or find luck. 00:04:28.530 --> 00:04:31.140 What is curious listening and how does it help us with luck? 00:04:31.409 --> 00:04:33.780 Tina Seelig: People know if you're paying attention, if 00:04:33.780 --> 00:04:35.700 you're present, if you are there. 00:04:35.969 --> 00:04:38.880 I mean, this is something you are masterful at, Matt. 00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:40.229 I mean, really and truly. 00:04:40.475 --> 00:04:43.235 And I know it's one of the reasons I love spending time with you 00:04:43.235 --> 00:04:46.745 and that other people do as well, because you are really listening. 00:04:46.925 --> 00:04:51.635 You're listening not just to wait for your turn to say something in response, 00:04:51.785 --> 00:04:56.405 but you're listening and actually really responding to what you heard, often taking 00:04:56.405 --> 00:04:58.805 time to review what the person says. 00:04:58.805 --> 00:05:00.455 So let me do some reflective listening. 00:05:00.485 --> 00:05:01.295 This is what you said. 00:05:01.295 --> 00:05:02.225 Did I get it right? 00:05:02.585 --> 00:05:07.085 It builds trust in other people, and when people trust you, they're 00:05:07.085 --> 00:05:09.155 much more likely to wanna help you. 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:10.440 Matt Abrahams: I see. 00:05:10.440 --> 00:05:15.570 So it's the being present, being curious, and then signaling that you heard, that 00:05:15.570 --> 00:05:20.220 leads to the trust in collaboration, which opens up the opportunity for luck. 00:05:20.280 --> 00:05:20.940 I like that. 00:05:21.450 --> 00:05:26.100 What are some of the things that we can do to help prepare us to be lucky? 00:05:26.280 --> 00:05:27.600 To be open to luck? 00:05:28.020 --> 00:05:33.270 Tina Seelig: A lot of it has to do with not making things about you, but really 00:05:33.270 --> 00:05:34.890 making things about the other person. 00:05:35.310 --> 00:05:38.880 I was thinking about this this morning as I was anticipating spending time 00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:43.020 with you, and I was reflecting on emails I get from former students, 00:05:43.050 --> 00:05:47.550 for example, where they need something from me or want something from me. 00:05:48.225 --> 00:05:51.735 I look at how they communicate it in a way that makes some 00:05:51.735 --> 00:05:53.085 of them luckier than others. 00:05:53.385 --> 00:05:57.225 There's a story that I actually have in my book about one of our former students 00:05:57.225 --> 00:06:02.655 at Knight-Hennessy Scholars, who ended up becoming the videographer for Kamala 00:06:02.655 --> 00:06:07.365 Harris at the White House, and this was a dream job for a young videographer. 00:06:07.669 --> 00:06:10.250 And you wonder how did she get that job? 00:06:10.489 --> 00:06:12.289 How many people would want that job? 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:14.989 And her story is so compelling. 00:06:14.989 --> 00:06:15.390 Her name is Azza. 00:06:16.340 --> 00:06:21.590 She had taken a course in videography when she was in college. 00:06:21.770 --> 00:06:25.010 It was the only course on videography that they offered, but she was 00:06:25.010 --> 00:06:28.120 so taken with it that she stayed in touch with her professor. 00:06:28.710 --> 00:06:32.969 She built a real relationship over the years and kept the professor 00:06:33.030 --> 00:06:34.409 up to date on what she was doing. 00:06:34.770 --> 00:06:37.140 When things were going well, they celebrated together. 00:06:37.140 --> 00:06:40.320 When she was struggling and looking for a job, her professor was 00:06:40.320 --> 00:06:41.969 the first person she contacted. 00:06:42.300 --> 00:06:47.250 She ended up going to graduate school at Stanford and again, couldn't find a job. 00:06:47.250 --> 00:06:52.110 After she graduated, she wrote to hundreds of different media outlets and newspapers. 00:06:52.200 --> 00:06:53.340 No one even responded. 00:06:53.820 --> 00:06:56.925 So she sent a note to this professor who she had been in 00:06:56.925 --> 00:06:59.265 touch with for 10 years, right? 00:06:59.265 --> 00:07:01.695 And had built that relationship and said, gee, I'm really struggling. 00:07:01.695 --> 00:07:02.655 Do you have any ideas? 00:07:03.105 --> 00:07:06.705 And the professor said, you know, I just got a call from someone who's looking 00:07:06.705 --> 00:07:09.015 for the videographer at the White House. 00:07:10.005 --> 00:07:14.625 Few weeks later, she had interviews and she ultimately was offered the job. 00:07:15.135 --> 00:07:19.755 It's in contrast to sometimes I get an email out of the blue from someone, 00:07:20.175 --> 00:07:22.724 someone who I haven't talking to in years. 00:07:23.115 --> 00:07:27.825 Who then has a long list of things that they want, and I think, wow, that was so 00:07:27.885 --> 00:07:32.805 interesting that the difference between when you have a relationship and it's 00:07:32.805 --> 00:07:37.605 built on trust and mutual understanding as opposed to someone who wants 00:07:37.605 --> 00:07:39.585 something in a very transactional way. 00:07:39.885 --> 00:07:42.315 Here's a laundry list of things that I need. 00:07:42.915 --> 00:07:44.925 Matt Abrahams: Building that relationship is so important. 00:07:45.015 --> 00:07:47.145 I want to make sure that we're being very clear. 00:07:47.145 --> 00:07:52.260 We're not being manipulative, we're building a really honest, 00:07:52.260 --> 00:07:56.550 true, connected relationship, and from that, possibility comes up. 00:07:56.850 --> 00:07:57.450 Tina Seelig: Absolutely. 00:07:57.450 --> 00:08:02.250 It's about being authentic and you never know where those opportunities 00:08:02.250 --> 00:08:06.450 are gonna take you, but you can be sure that luck is a long game 00:08:06.540 --> 00:08:10.980 and if you build these authentic relationships, good things will result. 00:08:11.294 --> 00:08:13.484 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely, and I can reflect on many points of my 00:08:13.484 --> 00:08:16.635 life where it is through connections and relationships that have led to 00:08:16.635 --> 00:08:20.534 opportunity, and it's because of the time I've spent nurturing those from 00:08:20.534 --> 00:08:22.484 a really honest, authentic place. 00:08:23.054 --> 00:08:27.315 Many people find it uncomfortable and awkward to do that kind of 00:08:27.315 --> 00:08:29.025 tending to those relationships. 00:08:29.025 --> 00:08:31.544 Do you have thoughts and advice on how to do that? 00:08:31.950 --> 00:08:35.400 Tina Seelig: I love that question because it shouldn't be so hard. 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:41.370 One trick I have something that I have cultivated over the last few years is 00:08:41.370 --> 00:08:44.640 that when I spend time with someone, at the end of the time that we spend 00:08:44.640 --> 00:08:46.740 together, we always make another date. 00:08:47.400 --> 00:08:49.110 And you figure out what the cadence is gonna be. 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:50.070 Is it gonna be a week? 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:50.970 Is it gonna be a month? 00:08:50.970 --> 00:08:54.000 Is it gonna be a year, same time next year, whatever it is. 00:08:54.150 --> 00:08:57.510 It could be a phone call, it could be getting together for coffee, but that 00:08:57.510 --> 00:09:01.170 you've actually put a stake in the ground and say, this is an important 00:09:01.170 --> 00:09:06.835 enough relationship that I'm going to commit to keeping that volley going. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.240 And it's been really transformative. 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:13.030 Because otherwise what happens is months go by and you go, oh gosh, 00:09:13.030 --> 00:09:14.560 I haven't seen Matt in a while. 00:09:14.650 --> 00:09:17.170 Maybe you reach out, but now it's gonna take months to get something on the 00:09:17.170 --> 00:09:18.670 calendar 'cause everybody's so busy. 00:09:18.939 --> 00:09:21.310 But if you've already made a commitment, it's there and 00:09:21.310 --> 00:09:22.510 something to look forward to. 00:09:23.010 --> 00:09:26.069 Matt Abrahams: A technique I use is after I meet with somebody, I have 00:09:26.069 --> 00:09:28.890 a good experience, I'll often send some kind of message acknowledging 00:09:28.890 --> 00:09:32.459 it, and sometimes sharing what the value was as a way to really connect. 00:09:32.550 --> 00:09:35.760 I love that idea, and it really is that interpersonal connection, 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.020 communication that matters. 00:09:37.319 --> 00:09:40.890 Tina Seelig: Well, you bring up something very, very important, is acknowledging 00:09:40.890 --> 00:09:41.834 when people do something for you. 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:44.459 I am the queen of thank you notes. 00:09:44.490 --> 00:09:48.680 I have a habit that every single night before I go to bed, I look at 00:09:48.680 --> 00:09:52.370 my calendar and I see who I engaged with that day and what was meaningful 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:54.350 and send off thank you notes. 00:09:54.530 --> 00:09:57.740 And not only do I end the day feeling really grateful, and I think there's 00:09:57.740 --> 00:10:00.110 a big difference between being grateful and being appreciative. 00:10:00.410 --> 00:10:03.020 I feel grateful for all the good things that have happened, but I 00:10:03.020 --> 00:10:06.560 also show that appreciation and that is another way to be lucky. 00:10:06.620 --> 00:10:10.870 In fact, one of the most powerful ways is demonstrating your appreciation. 00:10:11.050 --> 00:10:13.780 Because if someone has done something for you and they've taken that 00:10:13.780 --> 00:10:16.930 time away from something else, and you need to acknowledge that 00:10:17.050 --> 00:10:18.370 investment they've made in you. 00:10:18.760 --> 00:10:20.380 Matt Abrahams: I really like that distinction between 00:10:20.380 --> 00:10:23.410 gratitude and appreciation and taking the time to do that. 00:10:23.410 --> 00:10:26.530 And we know there's a tremendous amount of evidence that says well 00:10:26.530 --> 00:10:30.430 being and happiness can be enhanced when you take the time to think 00:10:30.430 --> 00:10:32.170 about gratitude and appreciation. 00:10:32.170 --> 00:10:33.100 So I really like that. 00:10:33.555 --> 00:10:36.705 You have a great chapter in your book on Unshackling Luck 00:10:36.705 --> 00:10:38.265 Through Conflict Resolution. 00:10:38.265 --> 00:10:39.825 And when I saw that, I was like, what? 00:10:39.945 --> 00:10:40.545 Wait a minute. 00:10:40.545 --> 00:10:41.685 That doesn't make any sense to me. 00:10:41.835 --> 00:10:44.835 How does conflict dampen the likelihood of luck? 00:10:45.075 --> 00:10:47.805 Tina Seelig: If you wake up and the first thing you think about is 00:10:47.805 --> 00:10:52.095 some conflict that you're dealing with, it is a huge distraction. 00:10:52.425 --> 00:10:57.225 Think about the mental energy we spend thinking about you're being angry at 00:10:57.225 --> 00:10:59.655 someone or disappointed or frustrated. 00:11:00.085 --> 00:11:04.855 If you can release that, not only do you feel better, but you've now 00:11:04.975 --> 00:11:09.085 untangled these knots that have gotten in the way of the relationship. 00:11:09.115 --> 00:11:10.225 It's really powerful. 00:11:10.255 --> 00:11:11.335 I think about it all the time. 00:11:11.335 --> 00:11:14.845 I'll get up and I'll go like, do I have any unfinished business with someone? 00:11:14.845 --> 00:11:20.515 Do I have anything I need to apologize for or to acknowledge, and it's fun. 00:11:20.895 --> 00:11:22.635 It's like tending a garden. 00:11:22.845 --> 00:11:26.505 If you pull the weeds up when they're little, it's easy. 00:11:26.505 --> 00:11:27.615 It doesn't take much time. 00:11:27.645 --> 00:11:33.075 But if you let them grow into big, huge trees with big, deep roots, then 00:11:33.075 --> 00:11:37.155 resolving those conflicts is gonna take a tremendous amount of time and energy, 00:11:37.155 --> 00:11:38.835 and you might just avoid it altogether. 00:11:39.255 --> 00:11:42.945 So keeping your garden clean, or you could say keeping your house 00:11:42.945 --> 00:11:46.725 clean, could be your closet clean, keeping things clean frees your 00:11:46.725 --> 00:11:49.095 mind to be focused on other things. 00:11:49.560 --> 00:11:51.840 Matt Abrahams: You just triggered something, I never thought of 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:57.090 this, but an apology as a way of opening up opportunity to luck. 00:11:57.090 --> 00:12:01.480 Usually I feel an apology is rectifying a something negative. 00:12:01.890 --> 00:12:05.670 And it does that for sure, but it also opens up potential and opportunity. 00:12:05.910 --> 00:12:10.110 I think a lot of us feel overwhelmed and maybe embarrassed when we have 00:12:10.110 --> 00:12:11.955 to make apologies or remedy conflict. 00:12:12.635 --> 00:12:16.925 But if we see it as an opportunity to create something positive, that really 00:12:16.925 --> 00:12:19.175 does open us to lots of good things. 00:12:19.444 --> 00:12:22.535 Tina Seelig: You know, I'm one of these people who can easily perseverate on 00:12:22.535 --> 00:12:24.155 thinking that everybody hates me, right? 00:12:24.155 --> 00:12:26.584 I can easily go to a place where it's like I did something 00:12:26.584 --> 00:12:28.714 wrong and I've learned to ask. 00:12:28.775 --> 00:12:32.495 You know, it's like, hey Matt, we saw each other the day is everything okay? 00:12:32.765 --> 00:12:35.120 Usually it has nothing to do with me. 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.510 You know, there's something going on, but because I am so sensitive, 00:12:38.510 --> 00:12:42.170 I might interpret the fact that you were distracted thinking that 00:12:42.170 --> 00:12:43.790 somehow I had done something wrong. 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:45.380 So just checking it out. 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.180 Hey Matt, is everything okay with us? 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.410 Matt Abrahams: It is in fact, and in several of the points you've 00:12:51.410 --> 00:12:56.030 made, it boils down to not being assertive, but being present and 00:12:56.030 --> 00:12:57.890 asking and taking initiative. 00:12:57.890 --> 00:13:01.520 And that's where luck and deeper relationships can come from. 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:04.710 I wanna come back to conflict because you do something in your 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:05.940 book that I found really interesting. 00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:09.180 You use a matrix to categorize conflict based on whether they 00:13:09.180 --> 00:13:13.170 stem from personal or professional behaviors versus the values we have. 00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:16.800 When we find ourselves in conflict, how should we adapt our communication 00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:19.895 style depending on whether we're dealing with a behavioral annoyance 00:13:19.895 --> 00:13:22.355 or some fundamental values clash. 00:13:22.565 --> 00:13:25.985 Tina Seelig: One thing you should know about me is I love two by two matrices. 00:13:25.985 --> 00:13:27.875 I turn everything into a two by two matrix. 00:13:27.875 --> 00:13:29.945 It's really a fun way to organize ideas. 00:13:30.035 --> 00:13:33.245 So this two by two matrix is personal, professional, and 00:13:33.245 --> 00:13:34.655 the behaviors and values. 00:13:34.655 --> 00:13:37.955 So you can put different conflicts into these different boxes. 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:43.315 Like is this a professional conflict about a behavior, like you're interrupting me in 00:13:43.315 --> 00:13:47.425 meetings, or is this a personal conflict about a behavior like you're leaving 00:13:47.425 --> 00:13:53.695 your socks on the floor, or is this a values-based conflict in our relationship 00:13:53.875 --> 00:13:57.175 where we really just feel very fundamentally differently about something? 00:13:57.445 --> 00:13:59.425 Or is it a behavior? 00:13:59.685 --> 00:14:04.275 So it's very important to realize where you are and then what type 00:14:04.275 --> 00:14:05.475 of conversation you're having. 00:14:05.715 --> 00:14:08.625 So I know that at the business school, they do a lot of work on 00:14:08.805 --> 00:14:12.885 nonviolent communication and not crossing the net and saying, when you 00:14:12.885 --> 00:14:15.465 do this, it makes me feel this way. 00:14:15.465 --> 00:14:18.615 Where you basically take responsibility for how you feel, but not try to 00:14:18.615 --> 00:14:20.175 attribute anything to the other person. 00:14:20.535 --> 00:14:22.545 I think that's really good for behavior. 00:14:22.825 --> 00:14:27.235 But for values differences, the question should be about, tell me more. 00:14:27.235 --> 00:14:28.615 Help me understand. 00:14:28.825 --> 00:14:33.805 Now, sometimes you have to go back and forth because a behavior conflict 00:14:33.835 --> 00:14:38.665 might be rooted in a values conflict, but you're not gonna know that until 00:14:38.665 --> 00:14:39.925 you start asking some questions. 00:14:40.665 --> 00:14:42.255 Matt Abrahams: I wanna get meta with you for a little bit. 00:14:42.555 --> 00:14:46.275 I have always admired not only your passion and your creativity, but 00:14:46.395 --> 00:14:50.685 when you write and when you lecture, you are really engaging and you 00:14:50.685 --> 00:14:52.064 hook us in lots of different ways. 00:14:52.064 --> 00:14:54.435 In your new book, you use this metaphor of the wind. 00:14:54.704 --> 00:14:58.515 What advice would you give to people who want to make their communication more 00:14:58.574 --> 00:15:01.425 engaging and connecting to their audience? 00:15:01.454 --> 00:15:02.234 'Cause you do it so well. 00:15:02.729 --> 00:15:05.579 Tina Seelig: I think it's about constantly putting yourself 00:15:05.609 --> 00:15:07.859 in the shoes of your audience. 00:15:08.189 --> 00:15:13.050 It's not about me, it's about you and how can I explain something in a way that's 00:15:13.050 --> 00:15:19.140 gonna really land, and so constantly readjusting your sale to make sure that 00:15:19.140 --> 00:15:21.089 it's landing well with your audience. 00:15:21.089 --> 00:15:24.239 In fact, I have a funny little secret, or maybe it's a secret. 00:15:24.540 --> 00:15:30.449 You know, I give a lot of talks and I always like to be a little bit unprepared. 00:15:30.599 --> 00:15:32.729 Now you wonder what does that mean? 00:15:32.910 --> 00:15:34.380 It doesn't mean I'm not prepared. 00:15:34.380 --> 00:15:39.150 I'm certainly prepared, but I like to be a little bit unprepared because it 00:15:39.150 --> 00:15:41.310 makes me much more improvisational. 00:15:41.550 --> 00:15:46.709 It allows me to be responsive, reactive to see what I'm getting, 00:15:46.709 --> 00:15:51.930 and then tune my presentation to the folks that are in the room. 00:15:52.949 --> 00:15:58.319 It gives me a lot more energy because A, I have to be on my toes, but I think the 00:15:58.319 --> 00:16:02.250 people in the room feel the energy that I'm not doing something that's scripted. 00:16:02.579 --> 00:16:06.120 I'm doing something that is for them and uniquely for them. 00:16:06.599 --> 00:16:11.280 In fact, it's one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of being 00:16:11.310 --> 00:16:13.319 recorded when I give talks. 00:16:13.560 --> 00:16:14.610 I'm like, you know what? 00:16:14.610 --> 00:16:15.630 You had to be in the room. 00:16:16.050 --> 00:16:18.479 The experience is for those people who are there, because if I'm 00:16:18.660 --> 00:16:23.700 playing to the camera, it's a very different experience than if I'm 00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:26.910 just having a relationship with the people who are there in real time. 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:29.280 Matt Abrahams: By thinking about the audience and what they need 00:16:29.490 --> 00:16:34.560 really helps you craft the different ways in which you can communicate. 00:16:34.920 --> 00:16:38.040 You are also a master of appreciating the context. 00:16:38.040 --> 00:16:41.985 I have seen you teach similar material differently based on is it in the 00:16:41.985 --> 00:16:45.074 morning, is it in the afternoon, big room, small room, all of that I've 00:16:45.074 --> 00:16:46.785 seen you use, and that's important. 00:16:47.084 --> 00:16:50.655 You know, I've spent a lot of my last several years focusing on spontaneity. 00:16:50.925 --> 00:16:54.435 Getting yourself to a point where you have it understood and mapped 00:16:54.435 --> 00:16:59.025 out, but not memorized or scripted gives you that freedom to play. 00:16:59.235 --> 00:17:02.055 And it gives you that confidence from which to play. 00:17:02.055 --> 00:17:03.375 And to me, that's energizing. 00:17:03.465 --> 00:17:05.085 Tina Seelig: Well, so you know, there's an interesting other 00:17:05.205 --> 00:17:06.405 piece of the puzzle, right? 00:17:06.615 --> 00:17:07.605 So you write books. 00:17:07.605 --> 00:17:08.175 I write books. 00:17:08.175 --> 00:17:12.645 One of the things about writing a book is it actually gives you all the stories. 00:17:12.705 --> 00:17:17.025 It gives you a ton of material, lots of Legos, lots of building blocks. 00:17:17.235 --> 00:17:20.985 So whenever you get a question, you have a lot to work with. 00:17:21.419 --> 00:17:25.679 And a book is just part of the process of preparing and doing the research so 00:17:25.679 --> 00:17:28.530 that when you're having a conversation with someone or you're giving a talk, 00:17:28.679 --> 00:17:30.090 there are many different things. 00:17:30.090 --> 00:17:31.889 And so that makes it really fresh. 00:17:31.889 --> 00:17:34.649 It's like, oh, the next time we give the talk I'll give a different example. 00:17:34.649 --> 00:17:35.850 I'll tell a different story. 00:17:36.149 --> 00:17:36.540 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:17:36.540 --> 00:17:38.850 And you don't have to be an author to, to take advantage of that. 00:17:38.850 --> 00:17:43.139 You can stockpile anecdotes and conversations to pull them in. 00:17:43.139 --> 00:17:47.010 And in fact, when I teach people how to do job interviews, et cetera, 00:17:47.010 --> 00:17:49.980 I say, you should stockpile some examples so that you can pull them in. 00:17:50.255 --> 00:17:54.005 A good chef prepares the different ingredients in advance so they can 00:17:54.005 --> 00:17:56.585 assemble 'em as they're needed, and that's exactly what we're talking about. 00:17:56.585 --> 00:17:59.735 Tina Seelig: Well, I love this idea that when people are gonna be interviewing 00:17:59.735 --> 00:18:03.485 to think in advance of all the different examples, think of what would be 00:18:03.485 --> 00:18:07.415 those building blocks that are gonna tell the story and see which ones 00:18:07.415 --> 00:18:08.860 fit the types of questions you get. 00:18:10.170 --> 00:18:12.720 Matt Abrahams: You've been here before, so you know that we end with three 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.110 questions and one I create just for you, and the other two are familiar, 00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:18.870 and you can keep the answers you gave last time, you can change them. 00:18:19.020 --> 00:18:21.330 I'm curious, you've spent a lot of time thinking about luck. 00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:24.600 What's the thing that surprised you the most about, what do you feel 00:18:24.600 --> 00:18:26.220 lucky to have learned about luck? 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:30.330 Tina Seelig: The most important thing is the incredible amount of 00:18:30.389 --> 00:18:33.210 agency we have every single day. 00:18:33.510 --> 00:18:38.639 And so whenever I walk into a new room, having the mindset that there is a prize 00:18:38.639 --> 00:18:41.670 in every room, it's up to me to find it. 00:18:42.315 --> 00:18:44.475 So I'll give you just little examples. 00:18:44.504 --> 00:18:48.495 I was just in New York for a couple of weeks because our son and 00:18:48.495 --> 00:18:49.784 daughter-in-law just had a baby. 00:18:49.935 --> 00:18:54.675 So I was staying at this hotel and I would go downstairs and interact with 00:18:54.735 --> 00:18:58.155 the people at the restaurant, interact with the people at the bar, interact with 00:18:58.155 --> 00:18:59.865 the people who were at the front desk. 00:19:00.135 --> 00:19:02.865 I made a point of getting to know every single one. 00:19:03.344 --> 00:19:06.254 Find out their name, chat with them, and you know what? 00:19:06.405 --> 00:19:09.735 Magically all sorts of nice things happened, right? 00:19:09.945 --> 00:19:13.844 Magically they would offer me opportunities like, oh, we happen to have 00:19:13.844 --> 00:19:15.705 this today, or, can I help you with this? 00:19:15.854 --> 00:19:19.125 Magically, because I just said hello. 00:19:19.365 --> 00:19:22.485 One of the last days I was there, I was standing in line to get a cup of 00:19:22.485 --> 00:19:27.469 coffee in the morning at the cafe and this young woman, maybe in her late 00:19:27.469 --> 00:19:32.540 twenties, was there, and I know don't miss an opportunity to say hello. 00:19:32.659 --> 00:19:34.850 So I turned to her and I said, oh, you have such a pretty 00:19:34.850 --> 00:19:35.870 dress on, which she did. 00:19:35.870 --> 00:19:36.739 I wasn't lying. 00:19:36.739 --> 00:19:37.909 I said, you have such a pretty dress. 00:19:37.909 --> 00:19:40.250 And she said, oh, it's from Rent the Runway. 00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:41.780 And I said, oh, that's so interesting. 00:19:41.780 --> 00:19:44.959 I've heard a lot about this from many of my former students who use it. 00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:46.034 We had a conversation. 00:19:46.219 --> 00:19:48.050 She said, former students, where do you teach? 00:19:48.270 --> 00:19:49.620 I said, I teach at Stanford. 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:53.400 She said, oh, I went to the GSB, and by the end of the conversation 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.880 we were connected on LinkedIn and she works at LinkedIn, in fact. 00:19:57.120 --> 00:20:01.230 And it's so funny because who knows what will happen as a 00:20:01.230 --> 00:20:02.400 result of that connection. 00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:06.240 Maybe nothing, maybe something, but it never would've happened 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:07.590 if I hadn't said hello. 00:20:07.860 --> 00:20:10.739 Matt Abrahams: I think there's something to people who've been three time guests 00:20:10.739 --> 00:20:14.100 on the show, and there are very few, you and Alison Wood Brooks is the other one. 00:20:14.100 --> 00:20:15.870 You both say the same thing. 00:20:15.870 --> 00:20:17.760 You say, look for a treasure in every room. 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.479 She studies conversation and says, look for gold in every conversation. 00:20:21.689 --> 00:20:25.350 It's that notion of going in with the approach that there's something 00:20:25.409 --> 00:20:30.000 here and the curiosity, the listening that I do, might activate it, and 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.000 that's very different than many of us enter in our conversations. 00:20:33.209 --> 00:20:35.280 And that sense of agency that you highlighted. 00:20:35.550 --> 00:20:37.860 I think we make our own luck and we need to make sure we do. 00:20:37.860 --> 00:20:41.459 Tina Seelig: And to know that you do and to know that every single day, the choices 00:20:41.459 --> 00:20:43.230 you make, this is a very important thing. 00:20:43.379 --> 00:20:47.220 The choices you make today will determine the choices that you 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:50.580 have in the future, and therefore you're constantly setting the stage. 00:20:50.730 --> 00:20:52.139 But it is a long game. 00:20:52.139 --> 00:20:56.280 Luck is a long game and you can't say, oh, I didn't have a quick 00:20:56.280 --> 00:20:58.560 win, therefore it's not working. 00:20:58.709 --> 00:21:03.090 You have to know that you're investing and that it compounds over time. 00:21:03.550 --> 00:21:07.000 Matt Abrahams: Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:10.720 Tina Seelig: This is an easy softball question because it's you, Matt. 00:21:11.560 --> 00:21:12.040 I know. 00:21:12.040 --> 00:21:12.580 I know, I know. 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:18.010 No, but I really and truly aspire to be as articulate and thoughtful 00:21:18.010 --> 00:21:21.040 and prepared and flexible. 00:21:21.570 --> 00:21:26.790 And here you've basically made this your life's mission to help people 00:21:26.790 --> 00:21:29.879 be better communicators and you're just an incredible model yourself. 00:21:29.879 --> 00:21:30.389 Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you. 00:21:30.389 --> 00:21:31.320 I appreciate that. 00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:33.780 We'll see if it makes it into the show, but okay. 00:21:34.169 --> 00:21:36.960 Question number three and final question for this conversation, and I 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:38.399 hope there are many more on the air. 00:21:38.700 --> 00:21:42.330 What are three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:21:42.570 --> 00:21:45.030 And I'm wondering if that's changed since you've looked at luck. 00:21:45.270 --> 00:21:47.935 The prior time we talked about this, we hadn't talked about luck, so. 00:21:48.525 --> 00:21:54.045 Tina Seelig: It's all about the other person, and you asked me for three, 00:21:54.525 --> 00:21:56.315 but I'm just gonna triple down on it. 00:21:56.555 --> 00:21:57.795 It's all about the other person. 00:21:57.795 --> 00:21:59.145 It's all about the other person. 00:21:59.565 --> 00:22:06.855 Communication and luck comes from really understanding your audience and tuning 00:22:07.065 --> 00:22:12.615 your messages to them, really listening to them and being fully present with them. 00:22:13.320 --> 00:22:14.790 Matt Abrahams: It is all about the audience. 00:22:14.820 --> 00:22:18.540 It's understanding their needs and the opportunities that unfold with 00:22:18.540 --> 00:22:21.960 you two together, and I appreciate that and I knew it was gonna be 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:23.370 great having a conversation with you. 00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:26.550 I am very fortunate and lucky to have you in my life. 00:22:26.910 --> 00:22:31.245 Thank you for bringing the notion of agency and what we can do to make 00:22:31.245 --> 00:22:32.925 luck a reality in our own lives. 00:22:32.925 --> 00:22:33.585 I appreciate it. 00:22:33.945 --> 00:22:34.605 Tina Seelig: Thank you so much. 00:22:34.605 --> 00:22:36.405 This was an incredible opportunity. 00:22:36.405 --> 00:22:38.175 I feel so lucky. 00:22:40.425 --> 00:22:42.254 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:22:42.254 --> 00:22:44.175 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:44.355 --> 00:22:47.514 To learn more from Tina, listen to episodes 111 and 159. 00:22:48.645 --> 00:22:53.415 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:22:53.625 --> 00:22:54.885 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:58.290 With special thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:22:58.620 --> 00:23:01.830 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:01.890 --> 00:23:03.810 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:04.020 --> 00:23:06.690 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.010 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:23:11.010 --> 00:23:12.960 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:16.470 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:23:16.470 --> 00:23:17.090 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:23:19.300 --> 00:23:22.600 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:24.820 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:23:25.090 --> 00:23:29.860 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:23:29.950 --> 00:23:31.690 Talk Smart Learning Community.