Jessica: The unknown is scary, it creates anxiety, and the system in general is unknown to most. And I think that the more questions you can ask, the more information you can receive, the better you can be prepared. And just having the information takes away some of that anxiety and prepares you for what's to come.

Kirstan: For many victims of crime, navigating the criminal justice system can feel overwhelming. Processes can be difficult to understand and knowing where to turn for information is not always clear. The Correctional Service of Canada's Victim Services program helps to bridge that gap. In this episode, we'll hear directly from victims and survivors of crime who have used the program. Later, we'll also hear from two members of CSC's Victim Services team about the support they provide and the difference it can make in the lives of victims. I'm your host, Kirstan Gagnon, and welcome to another episode of Prisons Inside Out.

Kirstan: All right, well, we're here with Jessica. Welcome to our podcast, Prisons Inside Out. And we're here to talk about victim services today. So Jessica, can you tell me a little bit about yourself and what you're comfortable sharing about your experience?

Jessica: Yep, thank you for having me. So my name is Jessica and I have been a registered victim since 2011 stemming from the murder of my best friend Bailey in 2008. She wasn't just my best friend, she was more of an unofficial sister and we grew up beside one another as children.

I have a bit of a unique experience in that I had been working in the provincial correctional system at the time of Bailey's death as a probation officer and I later moved over to Corrections Canada. In 2011 I began working in the correctional system as a student while completing my undergrad with the goal of actually attending law school.

After Bailey passed away, I decided to remain working in the correctional system with the desire to work with offenders and I felt like I had two choices at that time and one was to be mad quit and hate all offenders and the system because of what had happened. Or continue to be part of the system and contribute to making a change in offenders’ lives and in the rehabilitation process with the hope that maybe I could change another offender's trajectory from preventing another family from having to go through what we had gone through. So I obviously picked the second option and decided to forgo law school and continued working in the correctional system.

Kirstan: Great. And how did you first become aware of victim services and what made you decide to reach out?

Jessica: So at the time of Bailey's murder, I was connected with the provincial Victim Services unit, which was in Ontario, and we worked with the victim services officer almost right from the start. I think because of the nature of the of the crime, we were connected almost immediately. We worked with them for 2 1/2 years through the court process until sentencing.

Obviously, I was still working in the provincial system at that time, so I knew how things worked and I knew that I was going to have to register once he was sentenced. And by the time he was sentenced, I actually was already working with Corrections Canada. So I already was aware of the services. So I decided right away to just reach out and connect and register because I knew that I wanted to know what was going on.

Kirstan: So take me back to the time where it just happened and you're going through maybe the court process. What did you need most at that time as a victim and survivor of crime?

Jessica: I think someone to just guide us through the process, guide us through what was going to be happening, to talk to someone who understood. It was in Toronto and the victim services unit there was absolutely fantastic and they were there to listen. There were times where they would just call to check in on us, keep us updated. I think kind of give you some insight, which the biggest thing I think is when you don't know what's going to go on, you have a lot of anxiety, it creates anxiety. So them just being able to advise us as to what the next step was sort of alleviate some of that unknown. And that was that was the biggest thing I think for us was just having that support system there.

Kirstan: And you are in a unique position that most victims and survivors are not in because you worked for the correctional system, have extensive knowledge of how the system works. And I know you and I have been talking about, well, there are things I want to tell victims so that they're aware of how the system actually works so we can demystify some of these myths that are around how it works and what we might read in the media. Is there something you wanted to tell us about that?

Jessica: Yeah, I think that what you said about the media, I think that we watch TV and we see things on TV all the time, all the prison shows, and we think that the system works the same way and it doesn't.

I think as a victim, it is fair to want to see the punitive aspect of sentencing, to see the person pay for what they did, for what they took, for the harm that they caused, whether it be emotional harm, financial harm, physical harm. We want to and I think that's a normal thing as a victim to want that. I wanted that. The victim side of me wants to see that the, I guess employee side, the person who's worked in it, knows that that isn't what it's about.

And the purposes of sentencing, there is a punitive aspect to it, but there is also a rehabilitative aspect to it. Our system is based on rehabilitation. It is based on the belief that we can rehabilitate offenders and help reintegrate them. And I think that that is sometimes lost. And I think as a victim, you have to remember that there is nothing that's going to replace what you lost.

Kirstan: Absolutely.

Jessica: And I think victims have a lot to process in terms of the trauma that they've gone through, in terms of how the system is working. And I think that that's something that they'll eventually can potentially come to. But I think it's something that is harder when you come in thinking a system is going to be the way that it is.

I think another one is for myself, the offender in my case is serving life. And I think that that's also another misconception as to what a life sentence is. And in speaking with other victims of lifers, some of them had no idea and truly believed that a life sentence was what it said 25 years. And in Canada, it's 25 years parole eligibility, but it is a life sentence and they remain under supervision the entire time.

Kirstan: I wanted to ask you a bit about your own experience. Like did you feel like your voice was heard through the process in terms of voicing your concerns either for the offender to understand the impact that the crime has had or the other side of Corrections, understanding kind of what you what your wishes were going through this?

Jessica: I think yes and no. I think that the system is constantly growing and changing and evolving. I think that when I first registered in 2011, it is very different today than it was then and back in 2011 the Victims Bill of Rights didn't exist. That came into effect in 2015. What we were entitled to has changed over time.

I think that in my in my circumstances, every single victim services officer that I have worked with has been excellent. And I think that they do their job and they are empathetic and they are compassionate and they listen and they do everything that they are able to do within the parameters of their job. I don't think that it's corrections that is particularly at fault, but rather the legislation that's in place.

And from my experience being a staff member, I think that I can speak for the staff that work frontline, the staff that work with the public, that work with offenders, that they are invested, the parole officers and the program officers and the victim services officers, they're invested and they have in my case gone above and beyond.

But like I said, I think that the legislation part is where I haven't felt as hurt or I haven't felt that maybe my rights are as guaranteed as I would like.

I hope with time that the victims’ rights can become better representative of what victims need, but at the same time not while not impeding the rights of an offender. And I think it's a difficult balancing act to find that.

Kirstan: It sure is.

Jessica: And I think for myself, working in the system, working as a parole officer institutionally and within the community, for myself being a victim, it made every decision I made impactful. Like I considered the victim in the victim impact because of what I lived.

Kirstan: It was helpful for you to have those multiple sides of the equation, right?

And so for those out there who may want to register as a victim, what are the top three things you would say to them? Because I know you have a lot of experience both from your own personal lived experience, but also you hear a lot from other people. So are there top three things that come out?

Jessica: Yeah. So I think the first one is to know your rights and ask questions. If you're thinking of registering to contact the Victim Services unit and ask all the questions that you have, whether it be about the process, about the information that you're going to receive, the information that might go to the offender and to discuss the type of involvement that you can have, because it varies.

The second one is to understand that the system is frustrating. Being confused about the process is very normal. And again, it goes back to ask questions when you don't understand. As someone who worked in the system for 15 years, I still find some of the stuff confusing. There's a lot of terms and lingo and jargon and everything that you've gone through as a victim can make processing that a little bit harder.

And then the third one is, as I talked about before, just understanding the system and what you're going to receive and how the system works will make the process a little bit easier for you. So asking questions if you don't understand what day parole means or full parole or statutory release, asking the questions over and over if you need to.

And I know I already said three, but I think that the biggest important one piece is to protect yourself, protect your mental health and understand what you've gone through is a lot and it is going to be an emotional process and that you're not alone.

Kirstan: Did you find that when you like getting more answers and more information was, although triggering, maybe also a source of comfort, if you will?

Jessica: 100%, I think I've always believed that knowledge is power, and I think that the more you know, the better you can be prepared.

The unknown is scary, it creates anxiety, and the system in general is unknown to most. And I think that the more questions you can ask, the more information you can receive, the better you can be prepared. And just having the information takes away some of that anxiety and prepares you for what's to come.

So if you have a bit of an understanding of what the system looks like, how the processes work, then you sort of can anticipate that's going to come. And for me, that's for sure helped.

Kirstan: And what would you say to others who want to kind of get involved but are sometimes a bit uncertain or feeling really overwhelmed because of what they've gone through? What kind of advice would you would you want to give them?

Jessica: I would say first and foremost, you're not alone. You are unfortunately a part of a club that no one really wants membership in and you would never choose to join on your own. And it isn't a result of something that you did, it's a consequence of something that someone else did to you. But you're not alone, and as hard as it might seem at the start, things do get better.

Kirstan: So, final question, any thoughts you wanna leave with our listeners on something you didn't touch upon that you think is really important? Or any advice for those coming our way in terms of victims or survivors of crime?

Jessica: Becoming a victim isn't something anyone anticipates, but it could happen to anyone. And I know for myself, despite working in the system and, and working with offenders, when it happened to me, it, it changed my life. It literally was a defining moment in my life.

I woke up one day to a phone call from Bailey's mom and I never would have imagined that that phone call would be that she was dead. And unfortunately, the reality of the world is. It could be anyone, but I think that we live our lives in a way, self preservation is to believe that it isn't going to be us, but that it could potentially be you.

If you are someone providing services to a victim or someone who is friends with a victim or a family member with a victim is to take a step back and really consider how would you want to be treated? How would you want to receive information? How would you want to be comforted? And to reflect on that, because one day it could be you. And I don't say that to scare anybody, but it's an unfortunate reality and I think it's something that we all need to remember.

Kirstan: Well, Jessica, you have incredible strength and thank you for coming on the podcast today and sharing your experiences.

Jessica: Thank you. Thank you for having me and allowing me to speak about my experience and for listening.

Kirstan: Next, we hear from Celine, chair of the Pacific Regional Victim Advisory Committee. Celine explains how Victims Voices can help inform correctional and parole services throughout these important advisory committees.

Kirstan: Please tell me your name and your role.

Celine: Yeah, my name is Celine. Celine Lee. I am the chairperson for the Pacific Region Victim Advisory Council.

Kirstan: Great. And we really appreciate all the work you do for us on a volunteer basis to offer your insights because I know that you're a victim and survivor of crime yourself. Tell me a bit about that.

Celine: When I was 15, I survived a violent crime that claimed the lives of my mother and sister. And at that time this was over, I would say about 35 years ago, so at that time the services and supports that were available to victims and survivors of crime where somewhat I believe, I would use the word, in their infancy.

So, there was limited supports and services available to navigating the criminal justice system that was ahead of us and for navigating the support that we would eventually need in terms of our recovery and trying to get back on our feet again. So, things have changed and there is a bit more services and supports available to victims and survivors, but there's still, I feel there's still a long way to go.

Kirstan: So, you talked a bit about being the chair of a Victims Advisory Council. Can you tell me a bit about that and how you got started with that?

Celine: The Victim Advisory Councils are regional joint advisory groups made-up of victims and survivors who serve as volunteers, along with representatives from victims serving branches of CSC and the Parole Board of Canada and provincial criminal justice system agencies.

The Pacific Region Victim Advisory Council was the first of its kind when it was formed back in 1996. So, we're going on to 30 years this year. It was the result of the efforts of a mother who had encountered significant resistance from various criminal justice agencies as she worked tirelessly to try to understand the circumstances that surrounded her son's murder.

With its creation, the Victim Advisory Council was considered a major step towards giving victims a voice in Canada, and provided many with a place to speak of their experience to create the momentum for change. And Victim Advisory Councils provide a victim centric lens on policy, procedures and communication related activities to victims and survivors of crime.

Kirstan: And what motivates you to serve as the Chair and the BC region?

Celine: I think for me, when I became involved with the Victim Advisory Council, which was back in 2015, I had spent many years working as a frontline victim service worker supporting victims and survivors in the immediate aftermath of their victimization. And I was seeing gaps in service delivery and I was also seeing a need for more victim centric trauma informed practices throughout the criminal justice system.

So, I was just looking for a place that had opportunities for creating or for having the inclusion of a victim centric lens to aspects related to the delivery of support and services to victims and survivors of crime. And I think for me, being with my own lived experience of dealing with the criminal justice system and also supporting so many victims and survivors, I wanted to have like a voice in policies, procedures and decisions to try to create that more trauma informed and victim centred place.

Kirstan: Is there anything else you'd like to leave our listeners with? In terms of what they should know about victims of crime and what has marked you the most in working so closely with so many of them?

Celine: I think what I would like to say is victims needs are our basic human needs. They're not like an abstract, optional or extra thing that we need to be given there. They are just the needs that like the basic human needs that we have and want. And they're often with the foundations of safety, recovery and dignity.

And when a system fails to meet our basic human needs, that is when the harm of the crime is compounded even more, and we feel even more beating down to the ground. Like we need to be believed and needs to be like a responsive system. We need to be respected and treated like a whole person, not just as like a number on a file or a victim #1 victim #2.

Our rights really mean nothing to us if they're not upheld. And we need to feel that the system sees us and that we're not just like a case or like another file on someone’s filing system or on the computer. Safety isn't just physical. Like we have emotional, psychological and ongoing safety needs.

Kirstan: Well, thank you so much, Celine for your time today. You've been wonderful and you do a lot of great work and thank you for that. Really appreciate your time.

Celine: Thank you.

Kirstan: Thanks to Celine and Jessica for shedding light on the victim experience. Now, let's hear from the people who support victims every day.

Kirstan: Hi, Mandi and Lona, Thanks for joining me today on our podcast, Prisons Inside Out.

Lona: Thank you. It's nice to be here.

Kirstan: Can you introduce yourself, Lona?

Lona: My name is Lona Vedder. I've been with the Correctional Service of Canada for just about 25 years. I currently work for Victim Services. Prior to that, I was a correctional officer at Matsqui Institution. And yeah, this is my retirement job.

Kirstan: Oh really? Haha. What about yourself, Mandi?

Mandi: My name is Mandi Micks. I've been with the Correctional Service Canada for 23 years now. Sixteen of those years I've spent in victim services, 10 as a victim services officer and now the last 6 as the regional manager of Victim Services for Ontario, Nunavut Region.

Kirstan: I find that this job is not as well understood as it could be sometimes, you know? Victims of crime don't know that they might have to engage with the Correctional Service of Canada to receive our services, which could mean information about the offender who harmed them.

Mandi, can you walk me through how that works?

Mandi: In terms of a service, normally we would receive referrals from the province in our region anyways. Our partners in the province would give us victim information or refer victims to us. And once we receive their information, the first thing we want to do is reach out and make sure that they're aware of the services that we can provide. And there are many. We do offer a lot of information to victims; we inform them of their rights under the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights, and we really take off with engagement right from the beginning. So, we'll get them registered. We will go over their notification preferences with them and make sure that they're aware of all the information that they're entitled to and allow them to make the choice of what information it is they wish to receive.

Kirstan: And do you have to register with the Correctional Service of Canada to get that information?

Mandi: Yes, but it can be as easy as just, you know, asking in writing, it could be via e-mail. You don't have to fill out that huge form. We're very happy just to make things as easy as possible and as accessible as possible for victims.

Kirstan: And how does that first engagement look?

Lona: The first engagement, usually once we receive the information that they want to register, then we would contact them. We want to know how this person is connected to the offence. So, you know, what is the connection? Are they relative? Are they a direct victim? You know, are they a witness? We receive applications from from all types of people who are connected to crimes.

Then is what happens next is we will work on their registration. Anyone who's experienced physical or emotional, harm, property damage, economic loss or the people who qualify for us under our policy.

So, we look for that in the details from the offence. We receive judges comments, victim statements from court, pre sentencing reports, things like that. We kind of go through the file and we see the connection that the person, how this person is connected to the file.

Kirstan: Wonderful. So, a crime just happened. We went through court and I'm a victim. I identify as a victim of that specific crime. And maybe I'm not ready to receive information from the Correctional Service, but I don't want to close that door. Is that an option to available to me as well?

Lona: Yeah, for sure. You can register with us and opt out of receiving information at this time. We do try to check in with our registered victims usually every year or every second year depending on the length of the sentence. And so we can check back, we could put notes on the file.

It's really, our process is really victim driven. So we're gonna meet people where they're at. If they want to receive everything starting today, we'll give you everything we can. We'll do a Correctional Plan Progress Report. We'll let you know about their location. You know, the Correctional Plan Progress Report informs victims about the programming of offenders and their institutional behavior, things like that. So those, some people want to know all of that, other people don't.

And a lot of it is their association to the crime. You know, if it's a complete stranger that's harmed you, sometimes they're not as interested if they're programming. But if it's a family member who harmed you, you might want to know if they're, if they're doing programming, and working on their rehabilitation, because that's, that's more important to your relationship moving forward.

Kirstan: And by doing that, I guess you're giving that a sense of agency to the victim to control what they receive or not, and if they're interested or not. Is that right, Mandi?

Mandi: Absolutely. It's a trauma informed approach. Meeting victims where they're at. And knowledge is power. So, you know, some people want everything because it allows them to make decisions in their life, whereas other people may just want limited information because they're not ready yet to receive that and there isn't that necessarily that imminent risk to them so they, they kind of take that pulse to step back and not receive all of the information necessarily at that time.

Kirstan: So, what would you say is one of the most common things that a victim wants to know? Is it where the offender will reside if it's close to them, for example? For that kind of sense of safety. In general, what would you say comes up the most?

Lona: When they're getting out. That's usually a huge one is, you know. Their eligibility dates, when they're eligible for their day paroles, full paroles, that release warrant expiry date. Those are important to them. It could be, when an offender's been incarcerated for 30 years and they're suddenly going to be out. It can be life changing for a victim.

Kirstan: And so, would you work with them to make sure they, they feel safe around that process? They have the opportunity to provide any feedback that might be incorporated into the planning that the correctional service does when they're in the community.

Mandi: Yes, victims have the right to participation. So, we when there is a release plan coming up, if we are planning for an offender release, we collect victim statements. We ask victims if they'd like to participate and they can request things like no contact condition because the non communication orders that judges impose usually are only for the custodial portion of the offender sentence. So, they can request no contact while the offender is on release. They can also request a geographic restriction. They aren't always imposed, but it is something that's well within their rights to request and CSC and the PBC have to consider it when making those release plans for the offender.

Kirstan: I know you serve over around 10,000 victims, it's a large amount of people, lots of interactions and engagements. Without sharing any personal details, can you give me an example of a time where you were really able to make a positive impact in somebody's journey?

Lona: There are actually many, that's probably why I stay in this role because it does make a difference to people.

I had one young man, he was the victim of sexual offences and the offender was his father. So, he was quite young when his father was incarcerated, he didn't know much about his father. I had notified the mother of this boy that the father was eligible for his stat release. This was sort of what we would consider an imminent release. It's probably going to happen.

So, this young boy was not a child anymore, he was now an adult. He phoned me up very, very emotional, wanted to have information about his father. He wanted to know things about him. So, I had to start off by telling him like hey, we have to register you, but I can't release any information about your father until you're registered victim. So, we went through the registration process and in our initial information letter, that we send with sort of the acknowledgment that the person's been registered, we have a little blurb in our letter that talks about victim offender mediation program and that this is a service that we have available to victims should they wish to engage in that.

So, he asked me a bunch of questions about the victim offender mediation program. And in BC here we go through an agency called Community Justice Initiatives. And so, I referred the young man to this agency. He set up an appointment with them, the mediators for that program. They actually will meet with the offender because both parties have to be in agreeance in order for a mediation to be successful or to even take place.

So, the father agreed. He wanted to mediate with his son. So, they wrote letters back and forth and this boy kept calling me like quite regularly telling me about the letters he received. Hey, I found out this, I heard this, I, you know, I wrote my dad back and then it got to a point with the mediators where they said, are you guys interested in the face to face? So now at this point, the offender is on statutory release. He's in the community. So, they arranged for a face to face coffee meeting for the father and son to meet.

And so, this this young man called me. He was sitting in the parking lot of Tim Horton's and he phoned me sobbing and he said to me like this has changed my life, like this has absolutely changed my life. He said I was sitting there face to face with my dad when I suddenly realized all of my fears. My one fear was that I was gonna be like my dad, and he said I realized I'm not my dad. He said. I also came to this realization sitting there, that I'm in control now, I'm no longer this child you know. My father no longer holds that power over me. I'm a grown man and he told me, he said I have not been able to propose to my long-term girlfriend because I've been so afraid that I'm going to be like my dad. He said I'm leaving this parking lot and I'm going to buy my ring. I'm ready to do this.

And I mean, I was on the other end of the phone actually, you know, in tears myself. Because it was just very impactful to see that such a small service that we offer that to be honest with you, not a lot of our victims really take advantage of this program. But it had life changing impact for him. So there's impact for victims and I also feel that there's impact for us on this end.

Kirstan: Wonderful. So if anyone's listening today, what would you want them to remember about this interview? What's top of mind at Mandi?

Mandi: I think just that we're here to meet victims where they're at, that they really can take control and you know, we'll listen to what it is that they need and approach it from a victim centred, trauma informed direction.

Kirstan: What about yourself, Lona?

Lona: For me, I'd like people to know that victim services officers are a conduit to, you know, deliver information about offenders to the victims. Information that they have the right to know and that they've requested to know. I'd also like them to know that we don't work with offenders. We're here to advocate for victims like we are here for them. We are here to not only bring information from the parole officers and the case management teams to the victims, but also to send it back.

You know, sometimes victims have very sensitive cases. Things that we don't write about in reports, but it's helpful for them to know kind of what this file looks like behind the scenes, like on the victim side. That we're here for victims, and we want to provide them the opportunity to participate in the process and help them to understand the complicated system that we're working in because it is complicated.

Kirstan: Well, thank you both so much for your time today and for the incredible work you do on the front line to support victims and survivors of crime and help them heal and help them feel safe. Thanks again.

Lona: Thank you so much for having us.

Kirstan: That's all for today's episode. A big thank you to Jessica, Celine, Lona and Mandi for sharing their stories, experiences, and perspectives with us.

Join us next time as we continue our victim services series with the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. I'm your host, Kirstan Gagnon, and thanks for listening.